Cure By Jack Waddington page 5 comments

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672 Responses to Cure By Jack Waddington page 5 comments

  1. Jack Waddington says:

    Ok Gretchen I now here/ Let’s hope for some great inspirations on this new page


  2. Phil says:

    Happy birthday Otto

  3. Margaret says:


  4. Phil says:

    I’m feeling some success about my son now. He likes the idea of going to college in NYC. After looking at the possibilities for students to major in at the city university system, none of them looked like they would be appealing to Carl, then I saw something called “urban sustainability”. It’s an interdisciplinary area of study about the urban environment. It is kind of related to his original choice of landscape architecture. He’s quite pleased with that and has taken it on as a plan.
    He’s not someone to overly think things through, that’s still my job. Much different from his older brother, who did everything himself in regards to college planning and following through on plans.

  5. Happy Birthday Otto ! I will bring you a birthday cupcake to Xmas group next week ! 🎂Gretch

  6. Sylvia says:

    Little inspirations are okay too, sometimes all we can muster, right Jack?

    Phil, good planning with your son.

    Otto, hang in there….[ iiiiii ] have another small slice of cake.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: Yes …agreed. It doesn’t all have to be the big PRIMAL … all of the time. Often it’s the little things that add up to major insights … least-way that’ been my experience.


  7. Patrick, Maybe it was not clear but I did not write the article I posted. It was one of many that described the woman you posted the link for. Most of the info on her comes from her own interviews, articles and speeches. The fact that she is a white supremacist is not something she conceals. I notice you tend to quote or post links for the same four or five Nazis. None of these people have either tried or succeeded in hiding their backgrounds or affiliations. I’m not sure why you seem to get so tense when it’s pointed out. That is the point where you begin accusing myself or others of lying . Maybe you need to be more specific about what you feel is not a fact. I do recall when you,posted Kollerstrom I pointed out that this was the guy who claimed an imposter Paul McCartney had taken the place of the real ( and now apparently dead Beatle) McCartney. Once again you claimed I was maligning poor Kollerstrom until I pointed out he had written a book on the subject. At that point and as always you say nothing and rarely if ever admit you were wrong. You are offended I called your mentor a Nazi. He is in fact exactly that and has been a member of neo Nazi organizations. That’s the facts. As for your white supremacist friend, well I posted one of the articles about her because you love claiming innocence . You and I both know there was nothing innocent there at all. As for your happiness that I find circumcision a horror, the Institute and many others have been talking about these issues for over forty years. Gretchen

    • Anonymous says:

      OK Gretchen that makes a bit more sense now – that YOU did not write that ‘review’ of Jeanice Barcelo the ‘birth activist’ woman. But I just went \back and read your post again and the way you wrote it there was no indication there that you did not write it yourself. Whatever……………at least it’s a bit more clear if you did not write it yourself. I think the same thing happened in your ‘review’ of Kollerstrom listing all his ‘faults’ and I think YOU are specifically saying these things.

      I know you are busy but I think it would help (me) if you made it clear you are just taking someone else’s opinion from wikipedia or wherever but posting it maybe a bit carelessly as IF it was your won . We all know ‘opinions’ are a dime a dozen esp on the internet but by you copy and pasting something you get me thinking you are really writing this yourself and for yourself. I then take it ‘seriously’ and kind of go to bat……………..but I am going to bat against a different batter I mean I am confused enough already lol.

      So your ‘critique’ is just that then something copied from some internet site maybe an ‘anti Nazi site’ whatever that might be maybe a ‘pro Jewish’ site whatever that might be……we all know it would be easy say go on wikipedia and copy and paste how ‘primal therapy is a discredited from of psychotherapy’ or whatever does that make it ‘true’ We all say ‘no’ but the point is it is easily done and your ‘reviews’ strke me like that

      I don’t want to get too deep in the weeds about all this now but this thing about Paul McCartny is interesting when you first mentioned how Kollerstrom had written a book saying the real Paul had died and been replaced I thought ‘nah’ he did not he did not waste his time on that but you were right he did. So……………I’m thinking this is some cooky nonsense well I read his book…………………and became totally convinced that is in fact what has happened! Am I right or am I wrong sho can say for sure but channeling Jack my FEELING (lol) is yes Paul DID die and the guy who tours etc now is somebody else. Tim who is a good friend of mine and who is English of course and who grew up in that whole era like myself has told me he thinks that’s just ‘nuts’ that’f fine he thinks that but I beg to differ. Actually I would really recommend Kollerstrom’s book it is a beautiful read and goes into LOTS and lots of the songs thw ‘hidden meaning’ of some of the words etc. But not only the words of the songs actually very well backed up ‘evidence’ of all sorts. It is a fabulous book to read and for some reason I have sometimes though Otto might really like it (I partly put this in here to check that he is awake – hi Otto ) I know he loves the music of that era and it’s a lot of fun puzzling out some of the lyrics of the songs. One example that comes to mind he claims the Rolling Stones, Donovan etc also knew what happened and he looks at the world of “Ruby Tuesday”………….interesting at least “she would never say/where she came from/yesterday don’t matter when it’s gone’ etc etc Also supposedly Tuesday was the day Paul died anyway an excuse to pur on “Ruby Tuesday” and as you hear the words imagine it’s about Paul dying and the new Paul………

  8. I’m going to ask this question very gingerly, for I know sensitive people can be rankled by the slightest perceived insinuations. Going all the way back to my schooling days I would occasionally see events such as “Black History Month”, “Black Cultural Heritage” days, etc. Native Americans have plenty of these events celebrating their heritage as well.

    Why does it tend to be viewed as racist if “Caucasian (White) History” or “Caucasian (White) Cultural Heritage” events take place, but it seems to be OK for other races to do so? Aren’t the people who proclaim that any white-exclusive events as racist actually being racist themselves?

    • Jo says:

      Why are you asking the question, Ug? Can you make it personal? 😉

      • Jo: Gretchen has mentioned white supremacy a few times and I’ve reviewed some of the arguments these groups make to satisfy my curiosity. The question I ask above is the one which stood out the most for me as being closest to a reasonable point.

        It seemed to bring up notions of reverse intimidation because fear of being viewed as racist would preclude any Caucasian celebrations of cultural heritage and/or history.

    • Sylvia says:

      I think of Black history month or Native American celebration as an acknowledgment of the value of cultures that are finally given their due but also it’s a reminder of the subhuman enslavement and mistreatment in their past.

      • Sylvia says:

        The Caucasians probably have celebrations or clubs too–The DAR, daughters of the American Revolution. The Oscars, The Emmys, Wall street, etc. Private golf clubs. Baseball before Jackie Robinson….

    • Patrick says:

      I think or to sound better maybe I should say I feel that Guru I might even say “as usual” brings up a totally valid point here……………..and that was me above of course about the Beatles etc

  9. Jo says:

    Happy Birthday Otto…claim your cupcake next week 😉

  10. Guru , There is also a huge difference between feeling a cultural event has been overlooked ( though I do agree with Sylvia’s point that those events are in fact not overlooked) and white supremacy or Nazi rhetoric. In my view these things are worlds apart. Wouldn’t you think so? For one thing there is a history of violence against particular groups of people and for another these things are often about power over others by those who I believe feel quite powerless. Gretchen

    • The groups/celebrations Sylvia listed do not explicitly refer to any race. Ideally any race can join those groups for they are identity-neutral, contrasted to something called “White history group” or “white cultural heritage group” (explicitly named as such). Your emphasis on the difference between simple celebrations of race and the violence part was a big reason why I brought forth the most mainstream argument provided by these fringe groups.

      Anyway, this topic was just momentary chatter over a glass of martini for me and it’s not really that interesting for me overall. Lots of bluster already made about it in the news media as it is. I’m more into bone-crushing high-velocity vehicles, that sort of thing.

  11. Patrick says:

    I have been reading a pretty interesting book on the history of circumcision. One thing is though it is practiced by some Muslims and other people in Africa and Asia by them it seems it is done as ‘rite of passage’ in other words it is done when they are at the age of becoming a man etc. So the boy/man participates in it and knows what it means etc etc

    By contrast the Jewish way is to do in on infants (8 days old). Also at least according to what I am reading there are degrees of ‘seriousness’ about it and apparently a lot of the strict Orthodox type Jews not only cut off the tip but remove the foreskin all the way down so to speak. Sounds really horrific and it seems almost close to castration. All Christianity has been opposed to it from the time of Paul and so it remained until in the UK and Commonwealth in the 1800’s and 1900’s it became in vogue. It became very much in vogue in the US when over 90% males were operated on in the 1950’s but now it is down to around 60%. This of course mirrors the growing Jewish influence/control in both of those countries.

    It might seem a provocative thing to say but if this ‘operation’ is as serious as I understand it is at least in the hands of Orthodox Jews and it being pretty much universal among them could this go a long way towards explaining the alienation, isolation, hostility etc they seem to feel towards most societies.they find themselves living in………………t I think it could.

    It is interesting also Gretchen says the PI has been going on about this………………I can remember Janov in a few places mentioning it but not so much at least that I can remember but to be fair I think he did. Of course my feeling is the PI, Janov etc could and should get way more active in opposing SO much of what modern medicine does to little babies including circumcision and vaccinations to name two very big ones. To me if a child is circumcized esp in this brutal way and pumped full of vaccines from a very young age…………….they have little chance to be ‘normal’ that is no way to start out in life yet it IS the reality for lots of them………….

  12. Patrick says:

    To show maybe this is not all ‘theory’ about infants and vaccinations during the Summer I was in the UK and was around my brother’s grand daughter and the little girl is about 15 months and everyone loves her and finds her charming. She is like a little actress always busy, making noise wanting attention etc………………and maybe my ‘bad attitude’ but after a while it wears on me. And this maybe totally just me but it feels like TOO MUCH constant on the go activation and the adults are kept busy all the time oohing and aahing and paying attention to her and yes I checked she is up to date on all her vaccinations…………………….later in the Summer we visit this “English hippy guy’ in Ireland a chemtrails ‘activist’ as it happens and they have a 3 y.o. boy and the contrast is very big. The boy is QUIET but observant. After a while he comes and GIVES my younger brother and I something. to me a totally lovable and loving little boy but quiet not demanding attention not an actor and I checked and NO his parents the hippies or neo hippies would and will have nothing to do with the Devil’s juice vaccinations………………..just saying what I noticed. So when that ‘birth activist’ says hospitals are Temples of Satan or Luciferian temples dedicated to death cults I see what she means…………….and it does not sound too crazy at all. And if this same lady is a so called ‘Neo Nazi” that does not so bad either now……….it’s just name calling and Gretchen should be able to do better than that. But I understand she is ‘busy’ and just copies and pastes stuff from Wikipedia that is like getting your ‘news’ from the Huffington Post or even the Guardian…………..

  13. Patrick says:

    It just stuck me the meaning of the word ‘observant’ like someone who notices things who observes……………….but also it is used as in ‘observant Catholic’ or ‘obserant Jew’ anyway I had not noticed or ‘observed’ that before. There seems to be something very ‘good’ about it to observe to notice to be still and quiet so one CAN notice……………… favorite news paper used to be “The Observer” something about that that I like. Maybe that was the best part of me the quiet part that just sits and observes……………I was usually too stressed to be able to do that………..

  14. Patrick says:

    I wake up here and am watching CNN and there is what to me is some nasty nonsensical ‘discussion’ about how Russia ‘hacked’ our elections. The guy being interviewed is a Senator Ben Cardin from Maryland a Democrat if that matters and he is just spewing nonsense about how Putin is so aggressive (not true) and how Russia is so dangerous to us (not true) and then the interviewer is Jake Tapper who does not ‘challenge’ him whatsoever just agrees with all this nonsense. So I decide for a change to try to check into these guys, WHO are these guys and why do they talk rubbish and spew lies constantly. A friend MANY times when I am like not able to ‘understand’ something says well so and so is Jewish and I go so what? Well over time I have found it DOES often times help ‘explain’ something so here is what I found about these 2 guys admittedly on Wikipedia but it is I am sure ‘correct’ in these specific details. So now at least I feel I have an ‘explanation’ of why these guys lie and talk rubbish all day long. At least I think or should say I feel it explains things a lot MORE than trying to identify someone as a “neo nazi” which usually explains or throws light on nothing. At least as far as Kollerstrom goes or the ‘birth activist’ Barcelo Gretchen’s attempts not withstanding

    “Benjamin Louis Cardin was born in Baltimore, Maryland, the son of Dora (née Green) and Meyer M. Cardin (1907–2005).[1] The family name was originally “Kardonsky”, before it was changed to “Cardin”. Cardin’s grandparents were Russian Jewish immigrants. His grandfather operated a neighborhood grocery store that later turned into a wholesale food distribution company.[2] His father, Meyer Cardin, served in the Maryland House of Delegates from 1935 to 1937, and later sat on the Supreme Bench of Baltimore City from 1961 to 1977.[3]

    Cardin and his family attend the Modern Orthodox Beth Tfiloh Congregation near their home, with which the family has been affiliated for three generations”.

    and now the ‘interviewer’ Jake Tapper

    Tapper was born in New York City, and was raised in the Queen Village neighborhood of Philadelphia.[10] He is the son of Theodore S. “Ted” and Helen Anne (née Palmatier) Tapper. His mother retired as a psychiatric nurse at Philadelphia Veterans Affairs Medical Center. His father graduated from Dartmouth College and Harvard Medical School [11] and went on to serve as the president of South Philadelphia Pediatrics and associate clinical professor of pediatrics at Jefferson Medical College.[12][13][14]

    Tapper was raised in the Jewish faith;[15] his father was from a Jewish family, while his mother, a native of Chapel Hill, North Carolina, converted from Presbyterianism to Judaism.[15]”

    You can do this kind of stuff all day long esp if you are talking about the ‘media’ Phil during the week was quoting the Washington Post ‘journalist’ Dana Millbank who was talking this nonsense about ‘fake news’ He SHOULD know lol. Well here is what wiki says about this guy

    “Milbank is the son of Ann C. and Mark A. Milbank[1] and is Jewish.[2] He is a graduate of Yale University, where he was a member of Trumbull College, the Progressive Party of the Yale Political Union and the secret society Skull and Bones.[3][4] He is a graduate of Sanford H. Calhoun High School in Merrick, New York. In 1993, Milbank married Dona Lynn DePasquale in an interfaith Jewish and Roman Catholic ceremony.[1] He is now divorced.[5]”

    SO many of these ‘media guys’ (and gals) last week I was watching Wolf Blitzer and Dana Bash on CNN wondering why they got the election so wrong…………….you can guess it both of them are also Jewish. But I find this interesting right now I decided to just ‘observe’ and find out who are these 2 dudes Senator Cardin and journalist Jake Tapper and this is what came up. You can do this all day if you want.

    • Daniel says:

      So, being a Nazi – which is a specific set of political and racial ideology and practice that people choose to have – explains nothing; but being Jewish – which is an ethnic identity people are mostly born into – explains something? Isn’t that a clear cut racial ideology on your part, were the genetic/racial/ethnic factor determines more than the ideology a person chooses to adhere to and practice?

      BTW, do you hunt Jews on Fox as well?

  15. Margaret says:

    dear Otto, best wishes for you and little Otto.
    wish I could help you to feel better..

  16. Phil says:

    We already celebrate and study caucasian history constantly in school and our holidays and culture. No help is needed for that, we are immersed in it.

  17. I was about to say something similar but mostly because I did not understand your response Guru. I realize you have already dismissed this subject but I did think Jo’s question or request to make it more personal was relevant. If I understand correctly you are saying you looked at white supremacy sites and thought this was a good question? Maybe it has something to do with the need you mentioned in a previous post. In any case something like Black History month was called for because there was little or no mention of the contributions of those who were not white in our history and it became necessary to ask for those contributions to be recognized. That has not been something that was needed in connection with the history of whites in our country. Patrick , I don’t know much about Wikipedia and I did not use it in connection with what was posted about Kollerstrom or Barcello. I find it perplexing that you say there is nothing so bad about being a neo Nazi but at the same time are quick to imply what has been written about these people isn’t correct. I have already said that both of these people have not hidden who they are and what they believe in . I was not quoting or pasting any one article as I said . Most of the information came from her interviews and writings. You seem conflicted in my view however as you are quick to say well it must be info taken from Wikipedia or the Huffington Post. Your way of writing off what has been written about them. Are you saying that Kollerstrom was not a neo Nazi or this woman did not call for a white master race? I believe you know those are the facts. This is what they say … not what Wikipedia says. Why imply it’s not true if you are so comfortable with it ? As for that post about the news media I don’t get what your point was. Maybe that everyone who reports news is Jewish. Quite simply I just can’t relate to this way of thinking. I don’t understand the kind of hate and prejudice that goes with being a Nazi or a white supremacist. I am astounded that you or anyone would say ” it’s not so bad” and I have not one ounce of respect for anyone who thinks this way. I will go so far as to say that once you wear that label nothing else you have to say is meaningful to me personally. Anyway my point to you Patrick is there is no question how these people have identified themselves. You were not surprised by this woman’s views . You knew her views. It has nothing to do with the media or lies so why not own it? Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – let me do a “Jack” on you and ‘quote you back’ I mostly hate that kind of shit just playing SchoolMasterBater but anyway you say

      “I have not one ounce of respect for anyone who thinks this way. I will go so far as to say that once you wear that label nothing else you have to say is meaningful to me personally”

      What I want to say is EVEN ON YOUR OWN TERMS that’s pretty messed up. Whatever happened to ANYTHING can be ‘understood’ not that I believe people who don’t believe the story that the Germans were so barbaric in WW2 needs any special ‘understanding’ certainly I would say they were LESS ‘barbaric’ than the English or the Americans But you are saying you would not give it to them anyway. Pretty much totally wrongheaded imo…….also don’t you think it is good to examine your own biases and beliefs. From what I see they are due a major Spring cleaning……..

    • Gretchen: Why in the world does every topic I mention have to be something personal instead of simply making conversation?

      You also said: “If I understand correctly you are saying you looked at white supremacy sites and thought this was a good question?”

      Are you insinuating something deficient about myself when you ask this question? What if I was racing to get a closer look at a Klu Klux Klansman in person so I could learn more about the garb and insignia he was wearing. Would that reflect badly on my character as well?

  18. Patrick says:

    I decided to continue my little game here and next up on CNN is an interview with Richard Haas. (He is again talking about the dangers of Putin and Russia) am familiar with him on TV a lot he heads the “Council of Foreign Relations” which is often mentioned as being THE most ‘elite’ group on the planet. Means the group that would control the money esp but also most everything else. Anyway and I have NEVER (honest) even thought of this before but let’s check his biography…Maybe put it this way the idea that Jews are some kind of potential ‘oppressed minority’ along with maybe the Blacks and the Mexicans could not be more WRONG. But that’s pretty much business as usual the truth ‘inverted’ I mean..Another rule of thumb might be whatever you are being told all the time is almost certainly the OPPOSITE of the truth and I would keep short any response to Gretchen and just apply that rule also to any talk about “Neo Nazis” I would trust the likes of Kollerstrom or Barcelo all day long so called neo nazis or not before the lying nonsense you can see all day on CNN. This morning being just a small dose………………

    “Haass was born in Brooklyn, to Jewish parents, the son of Marcella (née Rosenthal) and Irving B. Haass.[4][5] From 1989 to 1993, Haass was Special Assistant to United States President George H. W. Bush and National Security Council Senior Director for Near East and South Asian Affairs. In 1991, Haass received the Presidential Citizens Medal for helping to develop and explain U.S. policy during Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm. Previously, he served in various posts in the Department of State (1981–85) and the Department of Defense (1979–80).”

  19. Patrick says:

    Notice also he “helped to develop and explain U.S. policy during Operation Desert Shield and Operation Desert Storm.”…………………that would be helping to develop and explain our 2 most recent Big Wars for Israel I call them for short BWFI. A lot more died in these wars that any labor camps in WW2

  20. Margaret says:

    this same kind of crap over and over here seems to be increasing instead of diminishing. Patric why don’t you go counting how many catholic or protestant or muslim parents you can find of politicians all over the world, to check also on possible christian or other conspiracies?
    only focusing on one topic kind of makes your world more and more narrow and crazy.
    why don’t you leave us alone for a change with this shit as really noone here is interested at all so all you seem to want to do is to keep provoking and to keep getting attention.
    such a waste of time and energy for everyone concerned.

  21. Phil says:

    The question to Guru was could he somehow bring what he said to a more personal level, but that applies even more so to Patrick. Patrick, what is this all about for you at a personal level? Why post all this stuff here? Are you achieving some kind of a release with that? Or maybe it has to do with trying to provoke people. What if everyone here agreed with you, would it still be fun?
    I agree with what people are saying that your views are repugnant and repulsive. Is that exactly why you are attracted to them and posting them here?

  22. Margaret says:

    Phil, good point, it occurred to me he is simply recreating to be rejected.
    trying to turn it into a good thing or something, the well meaning misunderstood victim who finally turns out to be right and so smart etc.
    talk about a hopeless and selfdestructive undertaking..
    do you really hope to convince us Patrick?
    or is it just being the outcast you are after for another reason?
    again, all of this is such a waste of time and energy for all involved but mostly for Patrick himself.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, I’m reminded of something a politician said, I think it was trump. He said there is no bad publicity, even if rotten things are said about you at least you are in the public eye. I think I would rather hide in that case; but that’s just me.

      I saw a futuristic movie last night starring Colin Farrell called The Lobster. In it the narrator says :”As he (Farrell) was playing golf he thought it was more difficult to pretend you have feelings when you don’t…
      than to pretend you don’t have feelings when you do.”
      I took that to be it is easy to hide your feelings if you have them, but hard to manufacture them if you don’t have them. It must be hard for Trump to try to make people think he cares about them when he doesn’t. Poor guy.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Sylvia: As I see Donald Trump and from a PBS program recently, that went into the backgound of both Trump and Clintion, he Trump, had a daddy that instilled into him that he had to be a winner … seeming at any cost. Having been able to set out in life with more than a million dollars it becme realtively easy to finagle the monetry system and from there on it set himself up (as his daddy told him) to be winner. His business dealings doesn’t inpire confidence in him, for me..

        In the sense that I feel he has won the Presindency, (only through a very weird quirk of the Constitution), I feel he will discover that there is a great deal required to do the job. I am certain that he incompetant and I have a feeling that many in the Republican Part are fearfull of him being there in that position. It could be that he takes down the whole party with his extremly ‘neurotic’ behaviour.

        It is one sliver of hope (for the planet mainly) that I hope a sufficient number of the Electoral Collage members (22 I think), feel the same and for the sake of their party actually give Hillary the Presidency. I understand the term is “going rouge”. It’s sort of somewhat wishful thinking on my part, but for the sake of the planet and all of us on it … I hope … I hope … I hope.


        • Sylvia says:

          Yes Jack, the talk on the Washington week in review show was that Donald had defeated both parties in his win, democrat and republican.
          I saw that same frontline program about the candidates. Trump and his father both belittled the older brother as being only an airline pilot and not a cutthroat businessman like them. He died early of alcoholism. A curse to be born into that family. And I suppose his kids have no choice either to have feelings, except for Ivanka who they placate with a meeting with Al Gore while choosing an oil-company-lover for the EPA position. I worry for the planet too.
          Jo, liked your estimation of what’s happening here.

  23. Jo says:

    The major thing, IMO, that comes over is that he is very sick, because he cannot see – after all this time – the help and tolerance offered, and finally despair and disgust of many people here. It’s of great concern, and one wonders if there may be some physical cause also… as such behaviour is anti social, desperate and sad. If he has any real friends in his life, encouragement from them for him to seek medical help should be forthcoming.

  24. Otto Codingian says:

    The sheer joy that Amy displays doing this song makes me burst out crying. i hooked up my good speakers with some moderately decent bass tones and i am alive. Alive in misery and sorrow, but alive. I denied myself music for 40 years because my wife doesnt appear to like music very much. When i was listening to music when we first were married and she wanted to watch tv instead, that was the end. when i listened to loud music while she was out shopping earlier this year, and she came home and said that it was too loud, that was heartless. now she wants to come home in January, because i keep telling her how dead i am from working so hard. she obviously thinks her presence is going to do me some good. no, not really. i gave her a few reasons today why i would rather be alone,trying to persuade her to stay in champaign and help support the kid in his quest for electronic fire. Really, dear, i have no life when you are around. sorry, but this is the truth.

  25. Otto Codingian says:

    This one always gets me. I can’t believe the fear and hate and pain that must be going on in the schools of the u.s., that kids are killing each other. what the fuck. of course, it reminds me of my murderous uncle coming after me.

  26. Patrick, Most of us have examined our biases and beliefs and as a result have some understanding of who we are and what we stand for. You want or believe I should understand the white supremacist ? I understand them just fine but my compassion is reserved for those that are injured by someone calling for a white master race or for those that recognize their hatred is a problem they need help with. As an aside…
    Several times you implied that these people were being lied about, that we must not look to certain publications for answers. I asked you several times if you were implying that that this woman had not said she was a white supremacist or that Kollerstrom had not been involved in neo Nazi organizations. I asked several times and I notice you did not answer that question. Maybe you should consider why that is and your own inner conflict about who these people really are Again, if you are so comfortable with it why is it so difficult to say ? Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – these are LABELS, white supremacist, neo-nazi etc all just labels or just nasty names. Take Kollerstrom he was a philosopher of science in some London University, he did programs for the BBC about ‘gardening by the Moon’ he wrote essays on Isaac Newton, wrote books about the planet Venus etc etc UNTIL one day he wrote a paper about the ‘physical impossibility’ of human gas chambers. Does that make him a ‘neo nazi’ I guess so if you call him that. But the point is it’s just an attempt at name calling. He as far as I know had or has nothing to do with neo Nazi organizations. It is simple you and CALL him that just by virtue of writing a paper that does not meet with the approval of the ADL or whomever

      Same with this Barcelo woman, she is a childbirth person (doula?) and has a kind of free range of interests it seems which is fine UNTIL she says something about how Jews pretty much control the pornography industry. THEN she has a problem and starts to be called all those NAMES again. Then it becomes an accusation and then if she or anyone tries to ‘deny’ what she is being accused of then is accused of trying to hide what she is. Kind olf like you are doing to me!

      To try to get away a bit from this kind of pointless argument……………….what is a neo nazi anyway? Personally I think the idea of ‘National Socialism” is not a bad one. I like the “National” part in that a country actually means a country with sovereignty etc and “Socialism” in that you do not have this massive divide between rich and poor. The 2 systems it was competing with have also ‘failed’ international communism totally failed and international capitalism is failing fast. Growing up in Ireland in the 1950’s you could say we had a “National Socialism’ system it was not called that because like neo nazi that is a dirty name now but in fact it was pretty close to that. But then why do I bother to write this you will probably say sometime in the future “you ADMIT yourself you like the idea of National Socialism. I’m tired and it’s late I am not sure I am making much sense here.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        It would seem that you are being very defensive of Hitler and his so called “National Socialism” It would be similar, I feel, to thinking that all Irishmen are a bit on the stupid side, and it needs five of them to inset an light bulb. I know several Irishmen (three at least that were in this therapy … excluding yourself) and that is NOT how I would classify them.

        When You first came onto the blog (and I know you hate me reminding you of the event) you had one that did concur with you … Fiona. I asked Fiona if I reminded her of someone. You chirruped in the with “yes … Alolph Hitler” Me thinks you at that moment, did not have a favorable view of the guy, then .

        My take on the guy was that he rounded up the Jews that apparently in “Mein Kampf” he clearly stated that he would rid Germany of all Jews and, I believe, deport them off to Madagascar. When that turned out to be more complex than his original idea, he decided to put them into CONCENTRATION camps (for no better reason; According to some of your earlier deliberations, than to get them de-loused) He did make it clear that he wanted a Germany of pure Aryans. I gather from the definition of Aryans, that the Irish are NOT Aryan.

        There is a problem as I see it when we classify a whole group of people under one or two categories. I don’t quite see any group as being that way. There are some English I like and some I dislike and most I have no idea about. That equally applies, in my book, to Jews, Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Chinese Episcopalians et al. Go figure.


        P.S. It seems the notion of “crooked thinking” has suddenly, become something worth thinking about.

  27. Make no mistake, national socialism is nazism. G

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I hesitate to invoke Jack with anything like ‘approval’ but that seems like classic ‘crooked thinking’ to me. You take 2 things you do not define what either of them are and then proclaim they are the same. And then of course based on that bit of ‘crooked logic’ you will go on to make more inferences, proofs etc. And pretty soon a whole edifice is built up with no foundations that are in any way sound. Which pretty much describes the situation at hand

  28. Margaret says:

    following this discussion it seems Patrick does mind the label of nazi or white supremacist that the persons themselves do not mind or are even proud of.
    on the other hand Patrick seems to be making a fulltime job of sticking ‘Jew’ labels like in Jew so part of the international Jewish conspiracy, on as much as possible people he can find…

    ignoring as always the points Gretchen made..
    he seems so deeply involved in al of this all touch with reality seems to be getting lost. sad to witness and frustrating.

  29. Define national socialism

  30. Patrick, Here is a link to multiple definitions. National socialism is nazism. I do believe you know that and double talking is a waste of time . I also believe you know Kollerstrom is a Nazi and your birth link is that of a white supremacist. Why you are pretending that’s not the case I have no idea.. I have found that those who are constantly accusing others of lying are often struggling with telling the truth themselves. In this case I do not think you are being honest. In any case if this is how you want to identify yourself and the person you want to be that’s up to you. I have nothing else to say. Gretchen I will put that link in the next box

  31. Margaret says:

    Jo, before I read the next comments, I want to say you said exactly what crossed my mind and what I now don’t need to say anymore!
    this seems to happen regularly with Patrick, it is ironic and would be funny if it would not be so sad and frustrating.

  32. Anonymous says:

    Here are a couple of quotes from an article that caught my attention in the most recent issue of New Scientist magazine. “You probably can’t remember life as a 2-year-old. But memory traces from our earliest years might stay in our brains, ready to be reactivated with the right trigger, according to research in rats.”……..”The study beaks new ground…it shows that very early memories in mammals are not lost but stored as latent traces that can be recalled later”, the pair write in a comment piece published alongside the study.

    Go figure. Just how far back in the dark ages IS the non-primal world in terms of understanding human psychology. Geez. It’s kind of lonely here on the front lines of self-awareness, waiting for the rest of the world to catch up.

    The “lonely” part is probably a feeling coming up too.

    • Anonymous says:

      So still Anonymous. I thought I fixed that.


      • Tim says:

        When I did a course In NLP & hypnotism I learnt that a basic presupposition of theirs was that your subconscious mind contains everything you have EVER seen, heard, smelt and felt.
        It might be an interesting article to read to see what they mean, but of course we access memories from our first years; that was when we learnt to speak and to walk!

        • Tim says:

          In this video Marilu Henner is described as one of only twelve people known to have super memories. She seems fairly happy with it; she seems to have control over her access to her memory. I heard an interview with another woman who had such a capability, but to her it was a curse.

        • Phil says:

          I don’t know that I would want to remember all of those everyday things; that’s a lot of useless stuff that the mind might be better off filtering out, Hypnosis is apparently not much good for getting us to remember our traumas in a meaningful way. I think my defenses have always had me under tight control and so I was never easily hypnotized. I remember going to a show where many people in the audience were hypnotized but it had no effect on me

          • Tim says:

            I wasn’t suggesting hypnosis for you – just giving it as my source for that statement regarding what is stored in our subconscious.
            Neither am I advocating a super memory; I just thought it was interesting.

            • Phil says:

              I didn’t take it that you were suggesting I do hypnosis, I was just commenting on your comment. In dianetics the theory also is that we can move back and forth on our timelines and remember everything. But the author of dianetics, L Ron Hubbard was a con man who became wealthy through lies and deceptions, similar in that respect to how Donald Trump won the election.

              • Tim says:

                I don’t understand what you are saying.
                I know sometimes in the past Primal has been compared to Scientology, but what they have in common is very little.

                • Phil says:

                  You were talking about hypnosis and “super memory”. My comment had to do with relating those to dianetics. My understanding is that dianetics and scientology are actually two different things that Hubbard came up with, Dianetics was his attempt at psychology which didn’t turn out to be that successful or lucrative, so he invented a new religion he called scientology; with him as the prophet or guru.

                  • Tim says:

                    Still don’t see the connection.

                    • Phil says:

                      It’s weird; you seem to find things in my comments that I didn’t say, such as I made no comparison of dianetics to primal therapy. You miss what I do say. In dianetics you are supposed to be able to move up and down your memory time line to remember everything. Isn’t that what you were talking about with super memory and hypnosis?. In fact, Hubbard was a hypnotist and with dianetic audits the patient apparently goes into a trance.

    • Daniel says:

      Actually, doesn’t that mean that this concept is not that lonely anymore, and parts of the world do catch up?

      • Anonymous says:

        That would be another way to look at it, yes. For me though lately the overarching feeling infusing my life is loneliness because they do not see or understand. It is a powerful feeling creeping up from childhood but until I fully connect with it I can easily find events in present life to solely blame it on. Especially in regards to the election of DT.

        Contemplation of him leading a nation and the world sickens me. That he doesn’t believe in evidence (regarding Russian interference in the election process or human induced climate change) disturbs me. That he appoints a climate change non-believer to head the EPA I feel is disastrous. My biological training and interest sensitizes me to evidence informing that climate change is the most urgent threat facing humanity and current life on earth. I feel it is extremely short sighted that people don’t see it and aren’t up in arms that something be done about it.

        I feel lonely that not enough people foresee the nightmare that will befall life on this planet if we don’t take action to forestall it. My one hope is that the young, who have more of a stake in the future than DT has, as they did to bring about the end of the Vietnam war will rise up in a movement demanding action to reduce human induced gobal warming.

        At the same time I’m growing awareness that the feeling also emanates from deep in my history as I let myself become conscious for the first time of the childhood feeling of a disastrous unfolding of my life if my parents don’t see my need and take action to meet it.


        • Phil says:

          There’s a lot of talk about the new post-truth era we have entered.. Trump, of course, is a prime example of that. We are exposed to quite a lot of it here as well.
          It doesn’t seem to have much to do with education levels. People can be well educated but have feelings driving views contrary to evidence and facts.
          It doesn’t leave me very optimistic about the future of the world.

  33. Daniel says:

    1) You completely take those two words, National Socialism, out of their historical context. You’re right – without the historical connotation you could say that many countries were both ‘Social’ and ‘National’. I’ll grant you even more – if you take away the racial ideology and the dictatorship, that original Nazi (which is a shorthand for National Socialism in German: ‘Nationalsozialismus’) ideology was pretty benign and at first also had huge internal and external successes. But, alas, the racial and dictatorial aspects of the National Socialists were core attributes and not some byproducts or side effects, and invoking them immediately invokes these core attributes. The people who use this term for themselves are an ‘anti’ group – they hate others whom they imagine have taken or stolen something from them, and their core defining ideology is that hate.

    2) The problem with that Kollerstrom (and others) article is not that he repeated or collected various revisionist ideas – for example, that gas chambers were not a possibility – but that he, like the people whose work he’s citing, didn’t settle with just this “fact” but gave it a very strange and hateful interpretation that included intentional orchestration of hoaxes and other anti-Jewish ideas which are completely unfounded and based on innuendos or libels. In other words, these people did their “science” upside down: they first had a political agenda and armed with that agenda they went hunting for “facts” (just like you’re hunting Jews on CNN).

    For a “philosopher of science” this is an absolute betrayal of his stated creed, and no one of any scientific or academic integrity or moral decency is able to accept that.

    • Patrick says:

      Daniel – you are a ‘subtle’ thinker (I’ll grant you that) but it seems to me it is by that very ‘subtly’ that mistakes creep in. But I DO appreciate you do a bit better than just toss names or labels around. As they say these days let’s try to ‘unpack’ what you say just a bit.

      You now seem to be saying that Kollerstrom et al have uncovered a “fact” (that human gas chambers were an impossibility in the labor camps – though you do out the word fact in quotes) but then you go on to say they gave a ‘strange and hateful interpretation’ to this “fact’. I think you are getting a bit ahead of yourself here, it is is truly a “fact’ first off the interpretation is somewhat secondary and to push it a bit further if anything they were FORCED to take this ‘interpretation’ because their opponents simply refused to acknowledge or even try to come to terms with this ‘fact’ in any way. To try to keep it simple if you were to present me with some clear ‘fact’ and I in spite of all evidence simply refuse to try to even deal with it at some point you might make some ‘interpretation’ that I was intentionally organizing some ‘hoax’ or other agenda involving things not directly relevant to this ‘fact’. So Dear Daniel it seems to you are the one doing ‘science upside down’ here. I see no evidence whatsoever that Kollerstrom for example had any agenda whatsoever, he stumbled across something (as you say correctly it was the work of others mostly Fred Leuchter and Germar Rudolp) and put it in a journal it was the REACTION he got (losing his job being labelled a neo nazi etc etc) that started all the name calling and stone throwing.

      In a funny way I would say it is the same with me like I said I NEVER used to think “is this person a Jew or not” it would NEVER occur to me and I have to ‘work’ at it still it does NOT come naturally to me. This is also I would say because growing up in Ireland there was no Jewish presence at all that we were ever aware of this is not the case of course in mainland Europe or the UK. I mentioned before it was a friend who would pull me up in this way and just from experience he was very often ‘correct’ So last Sunday just watching CNN and I’m scratching my head like why are all these guys saying this stuff in unison and stuff that can hardly be ‘true’ what’s going on? and then suddenly I think of my friends suggestion and I did check. But NO there was/is no previous ‘agenda’ I feel compelled to go in this way by the “facts”. And I’ll grant you something by putting the “facts” in quotes so there…………..

      I could quibble also about what you say about “National Socialism” but I appreciate it I really do that first off you have some knowledge of what you are talking about and secondly you give it a pretty fair interpretation. I still disagree mostly with your final take on it but hey I will take it for today and be grateful that the world is not full of people just throwing names about and never it seems have the time energy or inclination to do some actual studying or thinking.

  34. Patrick says:

    I accept this is not the place for ‘politics’ but I have to say I do like Trump’s reaction to this business that all 17 ‘intelligence agencies’ (what kind of a country NEEDS 17 of those) are now saying the “Putin/Russia ‘interfered’ with our election’ anyway Trump more or less said are these the same 17 that said Iraq had WMD’s and he could have added that also said Muslims knocked down the towers……………..anyway I know here it seems de rigeur to not like Trump but I do find SOME things to like about him. To me at least this does bring in some breath of fresh air to the Washington Consensus really a consensus for lies mostly. Now here both the so called Left and Right are all up in arms about Russia of course America always needs an enemy, Commies or Islamistz or Russians hardly seems to matter and again I like that Trump makes Secretary of State a guy with very good relations with Putin.Now if the ‘wicked witch’ had won this would not be happening so I guess I am saying all this Trump phobia is a bit overdone. I accept though he may fuck this up even worse and my fear is he or the people around him are angling to attack iran. Maybe peel off Russia, demonize China (though demonizing your banker would not be a good idea) and make a war on Iran.The final catastrophe in the Middle East………..

  35. Patrick says:

    Sometimes I like to play with words (after all I come from the same country as James Joyce who famously or to some infamously called Sigmund Freud……….. Sickmind Fraud) anyway I say that so that nobody takes it too personally or seriously but my thought was “Does being circumcised lead to circumscribed (thinking)” In all seriousness I think it might if a ‘bit’ of you is missing here it might lead to another bit being missing somewhere else in areas where things are ‘represented’ (the brain) .Isn’t there all that stuff about thinking with either the big head or the little head?

  36. Jack Waddington says:

    Part-trick: 🙂 🙂 Just becuse James Joyce coined the phrase “Sickmind Freud” doses not necessarily mean that we ALL think Freud had a sick mind … BUT then It all depends on just what a “sick mind” is … or is not.
    I take it you are very familiar with one … Yeah!!!!!!!
    Liking Donald Trump is one thing; letting the person who recieved the least popular votes, run the US is something else. Lieing, I gather, is DT’s second nature. Once he’s got your vote then you are his fodder.
    Scouring the trashbins of literature is not to say that anything is a FACT or is FICTIION. both are words that are susceptible to a number of representations/interpretations. I personally would rather stay with the only thing that I can surely know … ‘how I feel’. The rest is just words, words and more word in the end signifying very little.

    Phil: I agree with . ‘It doesn’t leave us to be optimistic about the future of mankind … or the planet’.
    The other, about remembering everything that ever happened, and yet, she, Marilu Henner, never once (unless I missed it; my speakers are not very clear) talking about the memory of her birth, early child-hood or even more profound her womb life, seemed to me, to be missing … ‘The most important parts of life’ … when we were so, so dependent and so vulnerable.

    Larry: That creeping lonliness must be very, very devatating. I just hope for you, you can feel enough of that devasting lonliness of your childhood to allow that lonliness of the present to become ‘aloneness’.
    Could it be that modern science is finally catching up with Art Janov’s findings????
    One suggestion about getting labeled “Anonymous” might it clear if you sign your name at the end of each post. It happened with me a couple of times and I figured it was because I did not check the ‘name box’ above the click boxes for future emails.


    • Tim says:

      You really are a funny old sod. You are presented with this story of this woman’s extraordinary ability to recall specific memories, and, instead of just accepting it and appreciating (assuming it is not some glorified parlour trick) you want to shoehorn your dogma into it.
      I personally was disappointed she didn’t recall her moment of conception.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Tim: there used to be a radio program when I was not an ‘old sod’ called the “memory man” who was asked some extraordinary questions like:- what was the day and date when ….,. and everyone was amazed he always got the right answer. WTF


    • Sylvia says:

      Jack and Tim, I just watched the piece on Marilu’s memory. I found it quite primal. She did say she remembered her earliest memory being her baptismal seeing white and all the water being splashed upon her. That sounds like an infancy memory.

      Also she said: “Everything that you’ve ever done in your life is on your emotional hard drive anyways and it’s making you behave in certain ways, whether or not you are conscious of it so you might as well access it, understand it, explore it and see what you can bring forward….”
      The interviewing journalist then says: “The next step to memory is knowing the kinds of things that trigger it. Some people may remember visually, some may remember a smell, a flavor, a sound….”
      I’ve found for myself when I’ve had a feeling, the next day I will hear a song that takes me back to the age I first heard it and how I felt then. Or I will see someone’s shirt on tv that had the same print as a dress I wore at twelve and it will make me remember how I felt then.
      Interesting video. I may get her book, “Total memory makeover; uncovering your past, take charge of your future.”

      • Phil says:

        This type of memory also may be a kind of OCD:
        I wonder what the relation of this is with feelings. Memories are sometimes lacking their feeling content.

        • If I lived to be 80 years old and could remember every single detail of my life, from the age of 40 onwards my whole life would simply be telling a 40 year-long story, wouldn’t it?
          From 80 to 120 years of age I would spend 40 years recalling every memory of my telling the story of my first 40 years.
          From 120 years to 160 years of age I would spend 40 years recalling every memory of my telling the story of my telling the story of my first 40 years.

        • Sylvia says:

          Phil, I remember the segment on 60 minutes where the dozen spoke (including Marilu) about how painful emotions were sometimes attached to the memory. I think that probably they could turn it off somewhat. By repressing the memory they could repress the emotion too, just like we do. Will have to find that segment again.

          • Sylvia says:

            Phil, found the segment about those with superior memories. It is in two parts. It can be found on you tube by typing in 60 minutes marilu henner, in case my link doesn’t work. You’re right about the connection with OCD. It was an amazing video, I thought.

            • Patrick says:

              One thing that strikes me about this is these people with this amazing memory EXPERIENCE life in a different way. I don’t most people can ‘remember’ any of this because they never experienced it to begin with. Like last night it rained quite a bit by LA standards at least so maybe later some of them could tell us it happened on 12/16/2016 but it’s like me or most people would never have been aware of that so there is nothing to ‘remember’ It still seems amazing that they can do it but that might be a place to start. Why do they experience life in this way to begin with……………..that’s seems equally ‘weird’ to me. There is an awful lot of emphasis on ‘dates’ it’s like the calendar has huge significance for them or time or the passage of time does………………….for most people that is not uppermost on their minds

            • Phil says:

              I haven’t had the chance yet to watch this video and can’t do so while at work. I have read a little about it though, and it is quite interesting.
              The people with super memory (HSAM) may train themselves for this during childhood:
              This is what Marilu Henner says she did when she was a child:
              “I decided to play a little game with myself, in which I tried to remember every day that had led up to that moment starting with the most recent What did I do a week ago? Two weeks ago? Three weeks ago? I even started to go back to the previous years and the year before that, remembering specific days from first grade and kindergarten. Over time, this exercise became not only my routine to fall asleep, but also a way to mentally challenge and exercise my brain to the point that I could ‘time-travel’ back to: What did we do each day of our vacation? What was I doing when I was exactly the day my younger brother Lorin’s age? My Niece Lizzy’s age?”

              So it seems for some reason she became obsessed with memories and wanted to remember everything.
              I’m wondering if there was some neurotic reason associated with this from her childhood,
              It’s also of note that researchers find some differences in the brains of these people,
              but don’t know when or why that happens


              • Sylvia says:

                Phil, I bet you are right about the childhood obsession with memories. I remember when I was five that I told myself I’m going to remember everything from now on, and I would count as a way to fall to sleep. I’m thinking the part of the brain that developed this kind of memory was affected in gestation. I’m sort of nervous or hyper like Marilu without the super memory. I’d always do little mental exercises to calm myself. My mom said she was quite hyper and stressed carrying me–so looks like we are a product of our moms’ physical states during their pregnancies.

  37. Erron says:

    Actually, I can’t find any reference for James Joyce labelling Freud as Sickmind Fraud, but I do remember having fun using it as my avatar on a very right-wing website years ago.

    • Patrick says:

      Erron – maybe there’s no ‘reference’ maybe it was just said in a pub one time and someone else told someone else and so the story grew I don’t think I read it anywhere but I did hear it. What would you be doing on so called ‘very right wing’ websites probably being a troublemaker no? I have learned ‘very right wing’ so called is also pretty much just a nasty name no great ‘understanding’ involved. Gretchen would probably call it neo nazis lol

  38. Erron says:

    Sounds like the rest of your ‘research’: hearsay.

    It was a ‘primitive’ bowhunting site. I was researching how to make bows and archery gear for a book I wrote. I really got into the archery side of things. Most of the folks were good peeps, just inclined to be backwoodsy and conservative.

    No nasty naming here, just correct identification. You would be surprised how conservative I am in many things.

  39. Otto Codingian says:

    Horribly sad “Boy in Hospital Dies in Santa’s Arms After Receiving Early Christmas Present”. i was driviing home for lunch to let the dog out. i wanted to turn the radio off. I wonder if other people were hearing this story too. i wept. horribly sad. beyond sad. 5 years old, too young to die. i feel guilty for sharing this. poor poor kid and mom and dad.

  40. Otto Codingian says:

    woke up with an insight but little time to write it down in detail. just that my life was affected by death at a very early age in a few major episodes, and it has shadowed me my entire life, like another layer of skin. it affects me in everything i do, makes me kill myself, relationships, whatever. no time to write, i have to go kill myself by working too many long hours at work and then come home at the end of the day and kill myself with unhealthy food. ‘murder death kill” was the phrase that was running through my head as i was waking up this morn (stallone movie about the future, also cruise movie about the future.

  41. Phil says:

    Below is a reader comment from the New York Times in reference to Trump not wanting to participate in intelligence briefings, in part because he says “you know, I’m smart”.
    I thought it was interesting and copied it here.

    The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which low-ability individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly assessing their ability as much higher than it really is. Dunning and Kruger attributed this bias to a self-awareness incapacity, on the part of those with low ability, to recognize their ineptitude and evaluate their competence accurately.

    The phenomenon was observed in a series of experiments by David Dunning and Justin Kruger of the department of psychology at Cornell University in 1999. Across four studies, the authors found that student participants scoring in the bottom quartile on tests of humor, grammar, and logic grossly overestimated their test performance and ability. Although test scores put them in the 12th percentile, they estimated themselves to be in the 62nd.

    The experiments led Dunning and Kruger to propose that, for a given skill, incompetent people will:

    – fail to recognize their own lack of skill
    – fail to recognize the extent of their inadequacy
    – fail to accurately gauge skill in others
    – recognize and acknowledge their own lack of skill only after they are exposed to training for that skill

    Historical Observations of the phenomenon:

    Confucius: “Real knowledge is to know the extent of one’s ignorance”

    Charles Darwin: “Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge”

    Shakespeare: “The fool doth think he is wise, but the wise man knows himself to be a fool”

    • Tim says:

      Interesting, and very true,
      The problem seems to be that nothing we do or say can stop Trump. We argue, we reason, we demonstrate beyond doubt that just abut everything about him is wrong, but to no avail. He is like some kind of Superman! We must find his kryptonite!

      • Patrick says:

        But Tim there is a basic appeal there. Like who does not like to hear he does not believe the CIA a LOT of people like to hear that both Left and Right. I would include myself in liking to hear that mostly because I believe it to be true. The CIA are not ‘believable’ have not been on so many important situations starting with WMD in Iraq and that Bin Laden had anything to do with 9/11. They lie for a living that is their purpose mostly.. I don’t believe them either on this one this whole Russky thing is such a joke. For more see this. BTW when this guy mentions a name and put’s ‘cough cough’ after it it means they are Jewish

      • Phil says:

        No, not kryptonite. Maybe new info on the Russian hacking of the election will change something. It seems like Trump and/or his campaign knew about it before the election. It’s a tainted election result and probably should be redone. Other countries, I think, call for new elections in such a situation but we have no provision for that. The electors should look at all this information, the danger Trump clearly represents, the fact that Hillary Clinton won the national vote, and take appropriate action
        Besides all of this I think that a Trump presidency will have many scandals as he has massive conflicts of interest due to his business around the world. He will probably be impeached.
        All just my opinion, venting a little here.

        • Tim says:

          We seemed to get into a bit of a pissing match the other day; my apologies for my share of that.
          It seems you thought (and you were probably right) that I had not given enough consideration to your point about the New Scientist article.

  42. Margaret says:

    the day together at my fellow student’s house went very well.
    we seem to be on the same wavelength and pace of thinking and talking.
    it was a very nice mix of sharing some personal stuff, brainstorming about the subject and concept of our assignment and also getting a taste of her family life with two teenage kids coming home from an exam and having to study for the next.
    being in a well organized family always feels nice, the mere possibility of it and the experience.
    I felt a lot of sympathy for the 15 year old daughter, who has ADD, and seems a bit shy, and tends to be very controlled by her perfectionist mom who fears she will have to change schools and lose her friends if she does not study well enough.
    the daughter showed me the cat, and I felt we got along as I started joking gently with her, when she came down to the living room before she was supposed to, and that way managed to keep things relaxed before her mom got in the corrective modus about her daughter losing study time..
    I liked them all, son, mom, daughter and cat, smiley.
    the assignment is difficult and loads of hard work ahead, but it is a huge relief, for both of us, we get along very well and found ways to procede and share the work.
    she will focus on the searching and I will keep reading and assessing the papers and articles etc. she finds to make a selection.
    but first we have to come up with a search plan with al kinds of questions that have to follow strict regulations etc.
    and that needs to be original as well..
    with deadlines…

    glad I found a pleasant and inspiring study partner for the time being, as she might take a break in the stydying of these courses as for her new job she has to go to other courses still…
    and she is already a civil engineer, but was forced by her dad to ‘choose’ that, her dad simply signed her up while she was on a short holliday.
    she is very interesting, very intelligent and full of good intentions and energy.
    but combined with a nice dose of openness and healthy vulnerability and assertiveness.
    so in brief, I feel very lucky with my study partner.

  43. Margaret says:

    smiley Phil, I am glad you have time at your job to come up with stuff like that!
    and to post my comments, M

  44. Phil says:

    It gets boring here alone in my lab room I have automated instruments working for me. Once I get them up and running, with no problems, then everything will go smoothly and I can spend a few moments looking at stuff on the internet.

  45. Phil says:

    It sounds like you have a great co-student to work with on that assignment, and nice that you got to go to her house and met her family.
    Interesting that she is a civil engineer and now wants to study psychology.

  46. Phil, The Dunning- Kruger study is fascinating isn’t it! How about this quote… Gretch ” The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge.”
    ― Daniel J. Boorstin

  47. Otto Codingian says:

    thanks ladies

  48. Otto Codingian says:

    paul will never die. i used to think he was a bad guy since my hero JL alluded to that. but such music, such lyrics, he is a god, and gods don’t usually die, at least not for a long long time.

  49. Otto Codingian says:

    the lobster could have been much better, it went awry, and my poor wife later said that the director even thought that it was not a good film. but we can still be moved by it. i had such hopes for it when i saw a few clips, especially when colin ferrell was asked what animal he would like to be, if necessary, he said, a lobster and the lady who asked him enthusiastically replied “excellent choice!” Not trying to sidetrack or divert your post sylvia, that is something my poor grandmother would do. i assume you really mean it when you say “poor guy” about mr. trump. that is touching. it is hard for me to be sympathetic about rich people, or most people actually. but at least i am trying desperately not to hate people. like the ones who cut me off on the freeway etc. well, just saying nothing for the effing sake of saying something. opened my mouth at a holiday party at work today. i was in line to get some food and all of the big bosses were shaking hands and briefly speaking to the employees as we moved on down the line. i made what i later thought was a stupid sarcastic comment to the biggest boss, because i did not recognize that’s who she was. oh well, i tried to keep my mouth shut for so many years because stupid stuff came out of it. obviously it still comes out.

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, I thought the Lobster movie was about the strangest one I’ve seen. Ferrell was so deadpan in it. A lot of satire and irony. I liked the little Shetland pony/blond girl saying good-bye.
      I do have a little grain of sympathy for trump as a person but it scares me he is in charge. To not be able to feel for other people is something he will miss out on. A couple of my relatives are like that, though not rich.

  50. Otto Codingian says:

    you can definitely see that paul is not dead. just lost a little of his color for some reason. i am no expert of rolling stones at all, but i think when they wrote songs about women, it was about the women. i don’t recall them writing any songs about men. i am so jealous that they were around so many women. soon it will be page 6, sorry for all the links

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – but in that video that would be the ‘real’ Paul the original one. Supposedly he died in Sep 1966 this video was before that so that would be the original Paul

  51. Otto Codingian says:

    well that’s john, cutey-pie paul is later. cutie-pies all. projecting those cutie-pie hormones with silly love songs. john lennon, what a lover.

  52. Anonymous says:

    I feel like sharing this music video with any who might be moved by it like I am. Especially this cold monochrome time of year up here when days are their shortest, a longing is often stirred for the warmth, colour and ease of summer.

    For me the video conjures up a warm, reassuring, rhythmic embrace of mother earth, and starts me weeping and recalling the times when i felt most alive, most content and most optimistic, when I was in scenes such as this with my wife. I then recognize the contentment and safety I should have felt as a child in relationships with the primary adults in my life but I was cheated and denied, felt cold, alone and frightened, taken from my parents as a baby and left in an oxygen tent in a hospital for a week, taken from my parents as a toddler, taken as a child from my aunt and uncle and back to my parents but never bonding with anyone thereafter…until my wife, and then her life ends too soon leaving me alone again…my natural state I’m meant to be it seems. BUT IT WASN’T MEANT TO BE. I cry knowing I was meant to be cared for, cherished, loved. Life would have been so different.

    Listening to and watching the video, I feel the warmth and reassurance that life should hold but for me the greater and the formative part was hurt, loss and emptiness.

    I can almost fall into and feel the warm embrace of the gently rhythmic waves on a warm eternal sunrise.


  53. Otto Codingian says:

    will see bb tomorrow. he won’t have to take a swig of jack daniels since it is not a joint session.

  54. Otto Codingian says:

    Patrick, i was just kidding. whether paul is dead or not does not concern me too much. whether new mr. pres is a russian double-agent concerns me more. not much more…the week-to-week struggle to pay bills and stay alive myself so i can take care of the remaining dog most concerns me. plus all the haunting memories from the past 65 years that pop into my head daily to give me a brief moment of torture. Not to mention the daily every-2-minutes-reminder from my lizard brain that I am supposed to fuck every woman I see, and realizing that I probably will never have that chance again. HAAAAA!!!!

    • Patrick says:

      That’s fine Otto it was probably un-necessary for me to even mention it.I guess I do because most of the other stuff I mention is too controversial in that it often pisses off a lot of people. The Paul thing seems ‘harmless’ by comparison so in my mind at least it seems like a good place to start it should not piss off a lot of people and it seems to be almost like a board game or a puzzle game but at the same time is in ‘real’ life. Just after I read what you wrote here these words from “Strawberry Fields” written by John Lennon quite shortly after Pauls ‘death’ came to mind

      “Living is easy with eyes closed/misunderstanding everything you see”

      There is hardly any doubt to me what he was referring to but like great art it applies to so much else Anyway enough about that as for Donald being a ‘double agent’ for a foreign power I would say he actually is but it’s not Russia it’s a country that starts with the letter “I” and a clue it’s not Italy or Ireland. Anyway enough about that too.

      As far as your ‘lizard brain’ is concerned can’t you take that now into even places like “Best Buy” and they can ‘re-program’ it for you just trying to be a bit ‘funny’ this morning.

  55. Patrick says:

    About Donald being a ‘foreign agent’ check this out from “Veteran’s Today”it bring home the point that whomever get elected in the US is a “President for Israel” That’s some serious power and control such that EITHER WAY Republican or Democrat or even Independent Israel get’s her way. What Lola wants Lola gets. People might find this ‘hypocritical’ of me but thought I was glad Hillary lost (more than that Trump won) this sad fact seems to be WHOMEVER WINS the driving agenda is the SAME maybe different emphasis and flavor to it but in essence it is the same

    “Then there is the situation regarding Iran; Trump is almost certainly going to scrap the Iran nuke deal, that is one of the key objectives for his regime, as set by his Israeli masters. Furthermore, Trump is likely to at least attempt to start a war with Iran, again at the behest of Netanyahu and the Zionist Likud that rules Israel. Should there be a war with Iran, Azerbaijan, which borders northern Iran, will become one of the key fronts. We have known for years that Israel has drone bases in Azerbaijan that it uses to spy on Iran, as Gordon reported over two years ago.

    Therefore, this huge 5 billion dollar arms deal between Israel and Azerbaijan is hugely significant and is clearly preparatory to a planned war with Iran, perhaps involving Russia too. The timing, coming just after Israel managed to get their man Trump ‘elected’ is also significant; Trump’s ‘election’ was step 1 on the road to the Zionist’s long-planned war against Iran, arming Azerbaijan is perhaps step 2; subsequent steps will see Trump scrap the US-Iran nuke deal and deploy US forces to the Middle East.

    Now do you see why we so vehemently opposed the Trump campaign? A US-Turkey-Israel war against Iran has the potential to lead directly to a far wider conflict, one that is very likely to turn into WW3 and become thermonuclear. Everything we have seen in recent months has been leading towards this long-term Zionist goal to destroy Iran, the last remaining Middle Eastern power capable of opposing their agenda to destroy the Arab nations and divide the region into Israeli, Turkish and Saudi Wahhabist spheres of influence”

  56. Patrick says:

    That article mentioned Trump’s “Israeli masters’ a little noticed or mentioned thing about Trump is how much he is surrounded by Jewish influence. Most people know his daughter converted to Judaism her husband is a major Zionist operator Jared Kushner and is involved with the “Chabad Lubavich” and seems to be the closest person there is to Trump. Morris108 thinks they basically run the world we have now……………………

    Most people don’t know both of his adult sons are married to Jewish women, his other daughter is engaged to a Jewish man that only leaves poor Baron the 10 y.o. with ‘autism spectrum’ from the vaccines who probably will not marry anybody. So in Trump’s private life he has his cross to bear also.

    Also apparently the Trump business is very top heavy with Jews. As I understand it most all of the top positions.Yesterday he appointed as Ambassador to Isreal a guy that funds more settlements, who wants to move the US embassy to Jerusalem etc etc. I watched the Frontline video Larry put on and to me it ‘explains’ Trump a lot. He was totally bankrupt but was ‘saved’ by essentially Jewish banks and money and I imagine he is ‘eternally grateful’ for that he would not enjoy being broke and they ‘saved’ him from that. I can imagine in his mind he ‘owed’ them big time so expect this ‘debt’ to be paid back in spades and not to America’s benefit but the benefit of a ‘foreign power’ and i’ts NOT Russia or Italy or Ireland………………..

  57. Patrick says:

    This is the “Veteran’s Today” stoy about Trump’s organization. I notice already 2 of these guys are in his cabinet the his lawyer as Ambassador to Israel and the Treasury guy also who made a few billion from the mortgage crisis (homelessness for some, billions for others) I hope this does not annoy Gretchen too much but a lot of stuff is spewed about Trump including here to me this gives a big understanding of the man

  58. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I believe that your interpretation of the line from Strawberry Fields is incorrect. Btw, the correct line is “living is easy with eyes closed/misunderstanding all you see”. Please provide evidence of your interpretation that this is about Paul’s death. In the 1980 Playboy interview John talks a little about these lyrics. I think that in the 1970 Rolling Stone interview he stated that the whole song was written about himself. He might have even referred to that particular line. I read this interview a long time ago, but now you can hear it. If you can find where he talks about this song, let me know. Here’s the link: And if anyone is interested in the evolution of this song, including some early takes of it, check this out:

    • Daniel says:

      Patrick is absolutely right about Paul. Also true, and too often overlooked, is that Barry Bernfeld is Ringo.

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – I don’t have any ‘evidence’ I am just kind of following the timeline, that song it seems was written shortly after Paul’s death if that indeed is what happened so I am guessing actually. But the sense of ‘un-reality’ in that song well to me it sounds like something serious just happened. Also John is famous for saying all kinds of things and couldn’t he say in all truthfulness it was about himself. It’s about his own feelings and reactions in that sense it’s about him I do not see a contra-diction there between saying it is about him or Paul. You obviously know a lot about the Beatles and that time if you want what I think is a great book about Paul’s ‘death’ check out Nick Kollerstrom’s one about it. I predict if you read it you will become convinced at least I did and I did not expect to. I decided to get it purely as ‘light reading ala the National Enquirer or something like that but he totally ‘sold’ me

  59. Patrick says:

    Renee – here is an interview with Kollerstrom about Paul. I think it’s helpful because there are quite a few pictures to look at though at least the sound on my computer at least is not great. No big deal if you don’t want to be bothered but since you know a lot about that period and subject I thought you might find it interesting.

  60. Phil says:

    This should eliminate Kollerstrom as a source on anything.

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – I wonder if you actually listened all the way thought with anything like attention let alone an open mind. If you didn’t that kind of eliminates you…………….as someone who repeats just a lot of received wisdom. That why I kind of like this kind of ‘test’ it’s harmless and should not piss people off so far you are flunking…………..

      • Phil says:

        Patrick, but aren’t you just repeating Kollerstrom’s wisdom? Is what he says better just because it’s unconventional? Suppose Kollerstom says 2 + 2 = 5 I mean strictly arithmatic, no analogy. Very unconventional, no? and free thinking too, so it must be true. From what you say that seems to be why you believe this stuff, against all logic and evidence. You seem to have become so cynical; nothing and no one can be trusted except Kollerstrom and other conspiracy advocates.
        Look at all those foolish sheep who still believe that 2 + 2 = 4
        I’ll stick with the sheep and flunk your test.

        • Patrick says:

          Phil – you seem to be admitting you did NOT listen to it………………….why ‘anal-ise’ me as you do quite a bit but you never do your ‘homework’. I don’t think you would be happy with your son for example if he never did his homework and only looked for things that were ‘wrong’ with you as an excuse to get out of doing what he needed to do/ Now stop finding fault with me and do your homework or if you don’t want to then your opinion holds no water.

        • Sylvia says:

          Phil, if you did watch this video all the way through on this Friday night, I would have to nominate you for the Tedium Award. I could not go more than the first five minutes.

          • Patrick says:

            Sylvia that fine if you take that approach. However the ‘rules of the classroom’ are if you do not do your homework your opinion counts for nothing (with me) and even if you do the application of a few brain cells are required. Like Jack and his ‘abolishing of money theory’ more than a few seconds are needed. lol ……………………

      • Jack Waddington says:

        For THE PRIZE flunker to end all flunkers you are the GREATEST.
        You sure flunked Primal Therapy,
        You flunked your court case with your demand for a life time of $10,000 a month from GG
        You flunked handing over the business
        You are a total flunk at getting your messages across on this blog … even to people that seem to
        ‘sometimes’ put up with you; least-ways don’t get mad about you.
        You’ve sure flunked it with holding your precious messages on the blog.
        You flunked (and this is the saddest of them all) with getting a girl friend and no chance at all with a wife and/or family. Sadly; sort of flunked life

        Best flunker on THIS blog.

        Why post a one hour and sixteen minute site rant, about something that is way from being a world headline AND when you know no-one will spend that amount of time listening to it?????? Wow man!!!!! you are the ………….. stupidest!!!!!!!!!!


        • Patrick says:

          Feels like some one vomited on me or spewed diarrhea or maybe vomited diarrhea………………….with Jack there is always in my mind the confusion of which orifice he is using and for what purpose.But there is always ;’mis-use’ going on regardless of how much a success he sees himself as..

          • Jack Waddington says:

            For someone that is an expert on vomiting and vocally farting all over the blog … YOU of all people take the biscuit. Don’t worry about what orifices I am using or not using. I have someone that takes great care of me, cares about me and gives me a lot of pleasure. Sadly, I fear you really have no-one …. and that is more than sad.


        • Daniel says:

          Jack, that was really vicious and uncivilized. Although Patrick can be, and at times is, infuriating and insulting, I can’t see why you’d have to so humiliate and muddy him up, and then, just for the kick of it, add another kick below the belt.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Daniel: I need to give this comment of yours some consideration.

            An immediate response to:- “I can’t see why you’d have to so humiliate and muddy him up, and then, just for the kick of it, add another kick below the belt”. I feel you are making an assessment about me, that I don’t (as of now) feel about myself, BUT … I will give your comment some consideration nevertheless.

            I am not sure just how much you know of the past ‘to and fro’ between Patrick and I. We go back more that 30 years; but I really am referring to his initial entering the blog and going on about me, in particular. My intent is to ‘Poke’ him and I use the word “poke” in the Facebook sense of that word (perhaps phrase, albeit that is only one word). Insulting, muddying him up, or even, kicking him below the belt, does not cause Patrick to consider or reconsider anything that could help him … in the sense of being therapeutically.

            Maybe I could ask you for YOUR honest feelings about me … with respect to the blog. I would be open to reading it, if you did.


  61. I am only going to say this for fun, so you can ignore this at will. If I was elected President instead of Trump, on inauguration day one of my very first actions would be to contact White House legal counsel to conduct “deep dive” research into all the possible illegalities of Grover Norquist’s “Taxpayer Protection Pledge” he has written up with many members of Congress. I would definitely make it a secondary and continuing mission to destroy that pledge by any means possible. Low-level warfare 24/7 in that area.

    Trump’s actions would effectively be the opposite of mine, so this is just idle daydreaming on my part.

    Oh yeah, along those line Proposition 13 in California should have also been eradicated a long, long time ago.

    • Tim says:

      Norquist is a jackass, for sure, but I can only think you do not understand Prop 13.
      Without Prop 13, if someone bought a house in L.A. for $30,000 in 1970, as the value of the house increased, their property taxes would have increased. These days that house might be worth almost a million bucks, and these poor folks, who by now might be retired and living on a moderate pension, would face crippling taxes, forcing them to move out and let some obnoxious corporate yuppies move in. However, when the old folks do sell, the property taxes will immediately be re-assessed in relation to the sale price. Since on average people move house every five years, the government doesn’t lose an enormous amount, but long term home owners are protected. I think it is brilliant.
      Where things get a bit goofy is with commercial properties. I don’t think Prop 13 should apply to them. Why should the taxes on my warehouse be less just because my landlord bought the building a long time ago?

      • Tim: I know a decent bit about proposition 13 and I am well aware of the predicament of cash-poor, house-rich people.

        The solution for cash-poor folks is reverse mortgages. Have the state work with banks to accommodate this aim on a broad scale. There is no reason cash-poor people should be forced out of their homes. Just because the newfound wealth takes the form of real estate appreciation doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be taxed, though.

        There are a lot more details to be worked out here, but I was just fantasizing anyway and I might give it some deeper thought at a later time.

        I still stick by my opinion on Prop. 13..

        • Example: If I live in California and pay a tiny pittance on my property tax….Oh, say $1,500 per year on an original assessment of $150,000 on a house (1% per year). Over time my house is now worth $750,000 with a “fair” tax of $7,500/year. Does this mean my $600,000 appreciation should not be taxed at all simply because I lived in the house a long time? Personally I think that’s absurdly unfair.

          The house now has $600,000 equity which wasn’t there before. You should easily be able to procure a reverse mortgage for $150,000 from a bank or other institution to cover a new “fair” rate of $7,500 per year property tax paid to you. You’re guaranteed by bank payments to cover 20 years worth of property taxes at a higher rate (20 years times $7,500/yr = $150,000 reverse mortgage) and you still have $450,000 extra equity over and above the original $100,000 starting value.

          New jobs for banks and accountants as well.

          • CORRECTION …my last sentence should have read “over and above the original $150,000 starting value”

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Guru: It’s not surprising that your gravitar used to be all those money symbols!!!!!!

            If money was to get abolished you’d have absolutely nothing to worry your brain stem with. Wouldn’t that be better?????? Maybe not, cos then what else would you require to occupy your time with???? 🙂 🙂 .

            • Tim says:

              That’s a lovely fantasy, but you have never put forward any ideas about how it would work. As I understand it, even your good friend Monsieur Proudhon went into great detail about how workers in small groups would own their land. Once you explain the details of something, then it can be examined, discussed, criticized. After all, the devil is in,,,, well, you know.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Tim” Should you be interested in a silly question “How would it all work” So-be-it. I thought I had aswered that question … NO-ONE ACTUALLY KNOWS, NOR COULD THEY EVER KNOW. that is why I say, “it’s the question that is stupid”. Example:- How would the pedestrian situation ‘work’. Pedestrianism in-and-of-itself does not “WORK” … it merely manifests itself in everyone doing their own thing, and for anyone to say or know, how ‘PEDESTRIAN ISM “works” is a misuse of the word.

                So!!!! if you are genuinely interested in how it might manifest itself you would need to do some heavy contemplation on your own … that I characterize as ‘homeork’. Try it.

                As for Pierre Joseph Prouhon he was promotiung a possiblity. No-one would OWN anything … except their own feelings and their own endeavors. efforts OR whatever word you would wish to use. The philosophical prase is:- “coinceptual leap”. Prouhon wasn’t perfect either. It’s so easy to nick-pick someone else’ writings

                One last point: Who decides if my idea is a fantacy or not?????? Be careful Tim.


                • Tim says:

                  “Silly question”, Jack?
                  I intentionally refrained from using such words about your ideas because trading insults is a valueless activity.

          • Tim says:

            First of all, you don’t actually know your house will increase in value. There have been instances during L.A. housing bubbles when people have borrowed large sums to invest in houses on the assumption that they could easily cover any additional expense. Then the bubble burst and they were up a gum tree.
            And involve bankers, who might well overcharge for their services when there is a simple solution readily at hand.
            And remember, we are not talking about a get-rich-quick scheme; these are honest people who pay their way and just want to stay in the home they paid for, without having to pay exorbitant property taxes just because Google decided to gentrify their neighborhood.

            • Tim: At 8:53am blog time I called for a final truce on the Proposition 13 arguments and you seemed to agree with this, for as you said we could go on and on and on about it when I have other things to worry about. About an hour later in spite of this truce you went ahead and gave a parting shot with the Google gentrification argument.

              So, here’s what I am going to do:

              I am posting this link as a counterbalance strictly to achieve equilibrium in light of your post-truce actions:

              (plenty more links out there from different sources)

              It’s just a friendly little link being left behind much like hotel housekeeping leaving a mint on a guest’s pillow. I really, really would like to stop here now that equilibrium has been achieved once more, OK? ***slowly & warily inches away from the Proposition 13 debate arena***

        • Tim says:

          But, Guru, Prop 13 is such a simple solution. When they sell the house, they pay taxes on its gain in value; the extra wealth gained from the house doesn’t escape taxes at all.
          Any other way of dealing with the problem would be so convoluted and inefficient.

  62. Margaret says:

    Phil, I entirely agree with what you said.
    Patrick’s ‘open mind only focuses on what suits his goals. if anyone refuses to look at evidence that would contradict him he is one big example.
    the real oppposite of an open mind, and of properly doing homework.
    but well, that is no news.
    if he gets cornered he starts to throw insults, instead of owing up to whatever he needs to look at.
    we have one big fat troll around here.
    who would feel like writing about anything sensitive with him stamping around?

  63. Phil says:

    I don’t click on any links you post here when they are clearly conspiracy oriented,

  64. Patrick, I truly wonder why it never occurs to you that it is you with the closed mind. Margaret is correct that should anyone disagree with you your response is to abuse. Frankly it does only take five minutes to assess how preposterous this theory is but nevertheless I watched the whole thing. What struck me is your inability to see that whether it’s imposter Paul’s or the Holocaust this man makes pronouncements without providing evidence of his views. He says things as though they are facts and because he thinks it well then it must be so. I suggest you watch some of the links you post with your own open mind. Like Kollerstrom you seem to have found your own way of avoiding reality. You insult, misinterpret ( as in Daniels earlier post to you) or ignore. If called on something you have no ability to address you simply change the subject. Maybe before declaring yourself a Nazi ( a label you won’t easily rid yourself of) you would be wise to revisit some of the information you seem to rely on for facts. Gretchen

  65. Tim says:

    Patrick has for a long time been a very good friend of mine. He is generous, witty, and has a self-deprecating sense of humour. I’m afraid none of this is on show much on this blog, which is a pity.
    One reason is because he is, far more than I am, a true believer in primal therapy. When we were doing all that stuff in the 80s, and living in houses with other primal patients, it was all wrapped up in saying whatever was on your mind and if that got you into a fight with your room-mates, well, that was all well and good, all grist to the mill.
    So, what am I saying here? Don’t blame Patrick; blame primal!
    (And Jack, before you get up in front of class and reprimand me for not having done my homework, that was meant as a joke).
    I disagree with Patrick about almost everything he writes here. Why bother with a made thing like chemtrails while there are other problems that are only too real and actually documented. Like the havoc wrought by discarded plastics in our environment; not just the horrible clutter, but the chemicals plastics give off that effect the reproductive systems of ocean creatures, and probably us too. And Paul dying? Wow! What a career move, what a bonanza that would have been!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Tim: I can see well, why you feel Patrick is generous, but you are one of a kind in this respect … from what I know of his generosity towards you. There are many that did not find Patrick that generous at GG. Yes, he did comply with a promise he made to me, after asking for it, for which he interprets that as saving my butt. AND after (as I felt) creating a program that very well ran his business much more easily.

      He can (only when things are going his way … with people that don’t see the worst in him) … which by my reckoning is a factor of his very ‘self centered’ self. Otherwise he’s a pain in the arse (ass) to the rest of us.

      My characterizations of him are:- “Head tripper” of the most extreme; the “least open minded”; the “greatest crooked thinker”. AND extremy “ARROGANT”.

      Me thinks he saved your butt also.


      • Tim says:

        I want to be clear that I am not trying to say anybody is wrong in their responses to Patrick.
        I am something of an outsider here, and perhaps an intruder. Although I did come to the states to do Primal therapy I do not believe in it as completely as most others on here, but I try to be honest and sincere in what I write.
        You have previously written that feelings are far more important to you than anything else, but in reading what you have written about Patrick above, I do not hear any feelings.
        (At risk of trying to act like some bogus therapist)
        How does he make you feel? Did he hurt you somehow?

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Tim: Patrick is someone I first worked with, and then later worked for. I enjoyed much from what I did at GG especially writing the ‘data base’ app.

          However, “what do I feel about Patrick on this blog?”:- I actually look forward to reading his comments … not because I like them, but merely as inspiration to respond to .. “Poke” is the word I use … or least-ways used to use. Believe it or not, his comments about me never really hurt me, or even bothered me. Just because I NOW don’t like him isn’t to say that I have some (even good) memories of being with him and working with and for him. Even sitting for him in the past.

          One last feeling I have about him is:- that he’s a sad character unto himself. Just my feeling/judgment of him, that’s all.


  66. Phil says:

    I watched the 60 minutes Marilu Henner show and it is very interesting and amazing.
    These are the kind of people dianetics was said to produce when they were “cleared”,
    but that was never proven.
    A lot of interesting clues for researchers to follow up on;
    about the OCD tendencies and lefthandedness. It seems like it would be very difficult to
    be in a relationship with someone with memory like that.

  67. Anonymous says:

    What Barrack Obama is thinking right now….


  68. Sylvia says:

    Larry, nice song. I think Trump will be the “bull in a China shop” as compared with Obama’s curator role; alas.
    Margaret, I agree that feelings need a special place to bloom like a hot house flower requiring some delicacy and right atmosphere.

    Patrick who is generous, should you wish to put those talents to use you could go to the animal shelter and rescue a poor adult cat with “limited time” to live so it will know human warmth. It would awaken feelings in both of you.

  69. Anonymous says:

    As Christmas approaches I’m stirred by it more than I expected. I thought I had it all under control. A couple of weeks ago I attended a fun dinner at a restaurant with a singles social group. I enjoyed my retired boss’s pot luck dinner at her home last week with work colleagues. I’m having fun practicing in our church choir and look forward to performing with them at our popular winter solstice service next Wednesday night. In half an hour I’ll start roasting winter vegetables, my contribution to a potluck dinner tonight at a participant’s home for a group of us singles from church who have lost a spouse. I feel good about the gifts I will bring to my brother’s home who I will be staying with over Christmas as I visit family and friends in the province next door to where I live. I’m nicely occupied and socially engaged in the season.

    Yet at times I feel fragile and vulnerable, sometimes uncomfortably lonely. I’m feeling surprisingly unsure and having a hard time phoning friends who I otherwise won’t see over the holiday. I have a strong feeling they won’t have time for me or interest. I feel very unattached to anyone. I’m remembering childhood Christmases. They were very exciting. Mom and Dad went to a lot of work to make a Christmas for us that they never had as children. They already had lots of work tying them down on the farm raising eventually 6 kids, but they found the time to get the house clean and tidy for company; Mom did all the baking and cooking for a big feast with guests, and they went into the City to buy toys for us for Christmas. When I think of all the work it took for them to make Christmas a special event, in addition to all the toil they were already burdened with, I want to go back in time to give them a big thank you hug.

    Yet in my memory something about Christmas was lacking, and as I grew into my teenage years I felt it more and more. As a child it was easy to be distracted and excited by the toys, but it would have meant so much more and what I really ached for was closeness with my parents and family. It’s closeness that I most long for now.

    This morning I watched one of those heart rending YouTube videos about a dog rescue. The dog had been treated atrociously by someone and it was near death. The new caretakers nursed it back to life. It’s transformation into health and vitality was dramatic. But the new caretakers appreciated that because of the gross mistreatment it received in the past, the dog was unable to allow itself to be cuddled. I found myself crying about how it was shut off from warm connection because of the burden of pain it carried, indiscriminately injected into it. I cried thinking how that is the situation of all of us on this blog. Finally I cried recognizing that is how my life is limited, by pain, which I was an innocent helpless child reservoir for, that effectively walled me off from human connection. I so much wish as a child on Christmas day I could have sat in either parent’s lap and given them a hug.

    At first it feels selfish to cry about my own situation, but in the end it’s honest and healing to face the painful truth and the crying automatically accompanies the truth. It doesn’t fill the void from then, but helps me understand and be better able to fill the void now.

    Merry Christmas


    • Phil says:

      Merry Christmas Larry, There’s still a week to go and I hope to hear more from you between now and then. I’m glad you’ve got a lot going on socially, and that you were able to cry when sad feelings came up

  70. Jack: Without belaboring the point, your wanting to abolish money is an unrealistic absurdity. Having a Universal Basic Income on some level is a far, FAR, FAR better radical solution where money is concerned. Money is an oil-like lubricant for a gigantically stupefying behemoth of an economic engine where abolishing money would seize the engine while Universal Basic Income would allow the oil to remain in the engine.

    As with Tim, I would like to end this argument here. I wanted to simply make my point known without putting hours of unnecessary work into it without any gain.

    I ran into this problem frequently with Gretchen and I have to economize my time at some point.

    • Or, maybe when I do have the time to hash out everything for hours and hours, it’s still an unnecessary irritant for me overall. Making my opinion known for a short time seems to work best.

      • You might get your wish anyway, Jack, for if we ever have nuclear Armageddon under Trump we will revert back to the tribal traditions of trading pine cones and seashells once more. Maybe bitcoin will still work if some smartphones are still operational albeit with heavy cracks on their screens.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Guru: A potential solution, since having little time seems to be something you are forever suffering and complaining about. Stop responding. It works for me … especially when something ongoing irritates me.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Guru: Your argument is the very same as the one lobbed at Copernicus and Galileo. Think for a moment IF YOU CAN about the situation for Cop and Gal.

      If you really are interested in putting the matter to rest … stop wanting and making it the very ‘last word’. OR .. as I suspect … you possibly have an agenda behind your post?????

      That, at least, is worth a thought.


      P.S. You’re beginning to sound like Patrick … YOUR feelings/thinking/ideas/opinions/wisdom is:- a “UNIVERSAL TRUTH”


  71. Jack: I would like for you to consider whether your wanting to abolish money is an argument based on personal emotional affinity rather than strictly attainable pragmatism. I, too, have a strong emotional affinity that all car crash victims’ relatives should be compensated according to the model utilized by Kenneth Feinberg after certain obscure events in New York and Washington 15 years ago (I would be in for a gigantic amount of money in that scenario), yet I also realize it’s never going to happen and I must act accordingly.

    We all seem to have our sentimental pet theories of how the world should operate, but the hard trick is sorting out what is actually attainable.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Guru: Some time ago on page 4, I answered that very question. Of course my background influences my feelings/thinking/opinions/ideas; BUT I feel there’s more to this question than JUST my background. Of course, I could be sp, so wrong.


  72. Jack Waddington says:

    On one of my early retreats I was designated this guy to be my buddy and he mine. He had come to the retreat with his long time friend and was expecting and hoping his friend would be he designated buddy. Instead he got me, He was furious and spent more than the first hour of our first buddy session complaining bitterly about it.

    According to him he’s been assigned this:- “old guy who was a faggot to boot”. I let him say his piece. During the week we each discovered the other was a political ‘Anarchist’. We both saw and felt that the abolition of money and all the trappings that go with it, would make for a better world. So!!!!! I am not alone; even in the Primal community with this notion.

    We later became great friends and until he returned to his home state we kept up a friendship.

    There are many historical figures who’ve thought through this very idea. Marx, Engels, Proudhon, Bakunin, Kropotkin, et al. I sure didn’t invent it … I’m not that brilliant.


  73. Phil says:

    The holidays coming does tend to bring up a lot of feelings and that happened to me today. It’s too bad my oldest son couldn’t be with us this weekend to get our Christmas tree. We like to go to a tree farm and cut our own Instead my son will come home on Tuesday. Actually he doesn’t really live here anymore, is the sad reality, he’ll only be visiting. But I want him here as soon as possible, is the feeling
    So, we went and got a cut tree and set it up in the living room to decorate at a later time.
    Tonight I stopped by to the local mall to pick up a gift I had ordered online. I already finished most of my shopping and did it all online. Going to the mall today reminded me of bringing my kids when they were much younger so they could do their shopping; buy gifts for each other and their mother. It felt sad that they weren’t with me today and aren’t little anymore. The mall was lively with a group of entertainers singing and dancing. I saw the pet store that my son would always like to visit but he could never have a dog, but he understood the reason.
    But it all reminded me when I was a kid and did my shopping. What came to mind was picking out a gift for my mother. She wasn’t living at home with us at that point. She was sick and permanently in a nursing home and I think I understood more or less that she wouldn’t ever be coming home again. There really was no way that any gift would bring her any joy or happiness but I did so much want to be able to do that.

  74. Anonymous says:

    I can imagine the feeling, Phil, the nostalgia for the magic with your kids, the sadness that those times are past, and the bleakness of not having your mother at your Christmases. It makes a person want to cry. Little kids weren’t designed for such omission of their needs being met. Your story affects me. I feel the void, the hurt and longing, the need to fill it.


  75. Hey Tim, First of all you are not at all an intruder. As an aside ( and I know you were kidding) I did want to say something about saying everything we think. The way I see it is that for most of us being silent is what was expected. Children should be seen and not heard, so by the time we get to therapy the idea that we might be encouraged to speak up and say what we feel is a great relief. But in my view there comes a point when we find that balance. People ask me all the time whether they would be wise to confront their boss, spouse, friend etc about any number of things. The answer of course is it depends. Should you tell your boss you hate him if you are desperate to keep your job? I wouldn’t advise it. But maybe you should tell a friend when they hurt your feelings. I think therapy is the place to express our feelings sometimes for the first time but obviously that doesn’t always work in every situation. I also wanted to ask you something else. I may have misread what you wrote but are you saying that some of what Patrick has written on the blog was new to you? Feelings you had not heard him express before? If so were you concerned? Gretchen

    • Tim says:

      I saw your post a couple of days ago, but put off responding until I had a little more time.
      Now I find your questions circle around themselves in my mind; the questions are simple enough, but I am not sure what you are asking, what you are concerned about.
      I do not like reading many of Patrick’s posts here; he comes across as so angry. But when we talk on the phone he is quite a different person.
      I don’t like a lot of his opinions, but I don’t think he is a danger to anybody or himself.

  76. Jo says:

    Larry, I’m so happy to hear of how engaged you are with your various groups! What strides you’ve taken!
    I know also the pain that comes up with situations you and Phil describe.

  77. Jo says:

    The relationship I began just before the retreat, that several of you knew about, was over quite quickly after we spent a weekend together on my return. I didn’t write about it at the time, I was pretty much working through the accompanying feelings (with help from BB and Gretch) for a few weeks after. I realised a measure of my progress by recognising quickly that I needed to stop seeing the guy, The feelings were intense, I was on a plateau of hope, then terrible disappointment.
    What you said above, Gretch, reminded me of having first to be true to myself, and then having to give an honest answer to his question why didn’t I want him.
    This is a very tidy summing up! It did turn my life upside down for a few weeks. I have built a regular tennis group structure in my life, and I’m keeping going with dating sites.

    • Phil says:

      Jo, So sorry that didn’t work out for you, but it’s great that you could realize about it quickly and stay true to yourself.

    • Anonymous says:

      When you had found much happiness and reason to hope, what a difficult and brave thing it must have been to discover and face that it wasn’t right, and what a difficult question to give him an answer to. Sounds like your coping OK though, Jo. Sounds like you are making progress.

      And brave of you that you commented here on other matters off and on during that difficult interval, given how difficult it is for you to speak up.


  78. Margaret says:

    yesterday evening there was a big Christmas ‘marrket’ at my mom’s nursing home.
    I had looked forward to it, as both my brother and sister would come and my mom’s boyfriend as well.
    it was nice to see my mom enthousiastic and full of energy, and to have the close family all together.
    on all the floors of the nursing home, specially in the old part including the attics where in former time the nuns used to sleep, little pieces of furniture and scarfs and xmas decoration etc. were sold.
    there was really a lot of people, and all kinds of food and drinks were sold as well.
    I was wearing a new hearing aid I am testing, in my left, deaf, ear a little microphone receptor which sends with a blue tooth connection the sounds it picks up on that side to the real hearing aid in my right ear.
    as I am optimistic in many cases, while fearful in others, I had expected it would all be very enjoyable.
    but I got confronted with my limitations, with the sight, of not being able to see al that was displayed, and with the sound also things got very ahrd as it was very crowded and noisy there.
    my brother has kind of a muffled voice and sometimes I really could not hear what he said even though he was right next to me, which was disappointing.
    it was partly dark there, hard to find a place to sit or even eat or drink together, and although it was kind of ok still, it was painful too to be confronted with my own disabilities and how they make my life so much harder.
    on the up side was our mom being very energetic and interested in books they sold and she was sweet as well, wanting to give stuff to everyone .
    I am stil not sure about the hearing device, am testing it and go next week to have it adjusted if necessary, and can test it for another week or so.
    it is very expensive, despite the medical insurance paying part of it.
    I guess I feel sad about everything I have lost, those sensory capacities that are partially impaired and therefor changed my life so dramatically.
    I had done my best to choose cloths for the occasion, nice trousers, red velvet booths, earrings with danling little stars, and a bright red sweater with a hoodie cap lined with soft white furry lining, a bit santa Claus style. but then talking about it with my sister there, she fell silent and said ‘errr….this sweater is not red but grey…’ and then I realized myself despite knowing I should be cautious for that, I had inadvertedly icked a very similar but grey sweater from my wardrobe, something that never happens to me as I know my cloths pretty well….
    so my nice plan to look smaslike in red also had gone down the drain, which caused some laughter but also added in some way to my sadness, and maybe shame of some kind.
    yes, I feel tears are coming up, guess it makes me feel inadequate and frustrated , a possible burdon of some kind, a drag, boy…


    • Phil says:

      It’s understandable how that mistake with the sweater could happen. Not important in itself but I can see how it might feel emblematic. But you do amazingly well in the face of so many difficulties, and that is inspiring.

    • Jo says:

      Margaret, that sounds tough, constantly up against the extra layer of limitation of sight and hearing.. and a disappointment that your new hearing aid didn’t come up to expectations, especially when you were looking forward to a festive occasion.

    • Anonymous says:

      It’s tough to face our losses and limitations. Good for you that you are looking into using a hearing aid, Margaret. I hope you find one that is helpful.


  79. Margaret says:

    Phil, saying goodbye is always painful, your son visiting instead of living with you seems the end of an important period of course.
    I hope soon in the coming years you might get a new kind of pleasure with some grandkiddies to brighten up life and bringing fresh young blood and energy into the family.
    you’d be a great granddad.

    • Phil says:

      I’ve actually adjusted to my son not living here.
      Christmas is a reminder though,
      And being a father has consistently been a reminder of my own childhood.

  80. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, your suggestion to Patrick had crossed my mind in the past at some point as well, having a loving pet around to care for might be beneficial, but to be honest I would not know if the cat would be so lucky. when ill it would not be taken to a vet possibly, and not sure either whether it would get much loving attention.
    like Tim, I have years ago seen some nice sides of Patrick, but here on this blog at least there remains little or nothing of it, on the contrary.
    wish you and your kitties and dog a happy xmas, and of course to all bloggers as well, without exception.
    Otto, hope you can meet up with some nice people during the holidays, you might enjoy (some of )it against all odds.
    merry smas to you and furry Otto as well, M

  81. Margaret says:

    I do agree with what Daniel said.
    on many occasions your ‘poking’ is more or less in balance with Patricks behaviour, but this last comment of yours to him did seem to be intentionally cruel, and something seemed to be going on for you there.
    now of course a lot can be said about Patrick and what he says and does, but that is not the subject here.
    it is not because a dog is mean one has to tease and provoke it.
    that flunking comment was for me as well over the top, made both of you go down to the same level of trying to hurt someone as much as possible and on their most vulnerable spots.
    at least you heard Daniel and I do hope you can have an honest look at yourself and your motives.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, I wish you a nice Xmas also. So glad your mom is doing well and is happy. I believe you are right about Jack’s pokes to Patrick making him mean and defensive, not a very therapeutic way to help one get to their feelings.
      I thought the cat idea might work. This time of year the shelters are full and the fees for adoption are sometimes waved. Many places euthanize healthy animals because there is no room for them.

      Have fun with your kitties too, Margaret. I get a kick out of mine when they ‘catch’ things like socks or a piece of Styrofoam and carry it into the next room. A couple of them are too adventurous and get into the neighbors’ yards so keeping my fingers crossed they will out run dogs, giving me more gray hairs.

      Happy Christmas to all on the blog, Feliz Navidad a todos, and happy effing Xmas to you Otto and Yours.

  82. Otto Codingian says:

    I am so effing depressed. i am just writing it here for whatever reason. the dog is probably tired of hearing it. i just realized why i am so depressed. Triggered by a loss at work of work space and equipment that i have been hoarding forever because some asshole bigwig cop decrees it. cant go into detail. but it must be the loss of my mom at age 10 months that has been triggered and the probably-depressing xmas that went on 2 months later which usually gets triggered every xmas. it is not that my lizard brain is telling me that i am supposed to have sex with every woman i see, maybe a little, but more of every woman i see or even don’t see is my mom, sent from a different part of my brain, but close enough to the lizard to translate to sexual need in a big way. or something like that. plus i am killing myself with food, which is also related to warm mommy who i was fed from and suddenly i wasn’t, so i keep shoving the food in. cant stop either of these. cant cry. i could cry but i don’t want to. someone beat that natural reflex out of me probably by not answering that cry or other method. happy effing xmas.

  83. Otto Codingian says:

    i think the proper greeting, if you want to follow the norms, is f** ou christmas!!!!!!!!!!!

  84. Otto Codingian says:

    Took a nap. Still depressed. Took a hydrococdone so I would be able to wash my clothes. Ate ½ of a chocolate pie. Just got back from 2nd walk around the lake with the dog. Angry depression now. Can’t scream out the anger at the lake. Can’t scream it out at home. Can’t scream it out at pi.Dead cat dead mom. Dead many pets. Dead gramma. Dead aunts and uncles and cousins and best friend. Thanks, life! Angry at most of the people at the park except for the ones who could possibly be my mom and I could tell her of my misery. Nice nippy windy santa ana winter weather that I love and it will vanish soon enough to be replaced by horrible hot southern calif valley weather. Only one day off as usual. Two days off would still be a drop in the bucket but it would be nice to have. Fingers still numb like sticks or I would bore you more with my type misery-gram, gramma. Dead gramma, so distant you were. Sorry for all your tragedies. Pipes making funny whine as I do laundry so they are probably ready to burst and the house is a mess and I hate dealing with the landlady. Southern California trees falling down with wind and rain and I could be homeless just like that. Or crushed. Happy xmas. Good fun xmas group, although so what? Good to see people I have not seen in a while. So what? That’s over and gone. Happy new year. Soon the inevitable enlarged depression after new year that I get every year. I must have felt bad like this as a kid but this year seems worse than usual. I spent a little money on presents so that means the car is going to die now. The pressure to buy presents every year is unbearable. Got to get money for a gift to my gardener neighbor so he doesn’t hate me. Never know what to get anyone. Thanks again gb for birthday surprise at xmas group. You and bb are my real heroes. Can you even conceive of anyone thinking that this is a cult???? Such caring and joy. Anyway, I need my miserable thoughts or I would go truly nuts.

  85. Margaret says:

    I noticed lately two comments did not reach me by mail, as I saw the replies to them but never got the original comment.
    the first was Patricks about the orifices and the second was Jo’s about ending the relationship.
    I regretted not having been able to read that one entirely.
    in the past months I had considered asking about it but had held back as Ithought you’d write about it if you wanted, Jo, and did not want to ask about it as you did not mention anyything about the relationship so I did not feel sure it was still existing and wanted to respect your privacy on this blog as well.
    but now I am wondering about which the difficult question Larry referred to might have been, that he did ask you.
    very sorry about the fact it did not work out, hope you find a really nice partner soon.

  86. Margaret says:

    Phil, Larry and Jo, thanks.
    it did help that I talked about it with my brother, about not being able to hear a specific sentence he at one point repeated three times, with or without hearing aid I could not get it, only after my sister repeated it with her higher pitch voice.
    my brother said the situation was kind of exceptional, a lot of noise and clattering and music and people talking, so that helped me not to feel too bad, as I notice it is also his feelings I worried about, that he would feel bad about me feeling bad, or that he would feel embarassed or otherwise bad about my situation.
    I still haven’t figured out whether the hearing aid is improvment enough for what it costs, but I have more time to test it.
    with what you said Phil, I could imagine being inspired by for example a person in a wheelchair or another disability doing certain things, but it is harder to look at myself that way.
    I had a dream tonight about walking on my own by a seaside with different beaches separated by rocky parts and with a lot of wild growth but beautiful little paths . at some point I was thinking about company but then realized myself it was also very nice to do this walk by myself, not distracted from the surroundings. then I arrived at a beach which at that moment had a bit of mixed driftwood and stuff on it, but I remembered its beauty in the past, and in some way also in a further past when it was full of wildlife, and I started crying deeply, about the beauty still, and the memories triggered. people came to me and they commented in an understanding and positive way about my deep (and loud) crying, as they seemed to get what it was about.
    in the dream that crying went on for quite a while, and I did feel it had relieved me when I woke up, the dream crying had processed something.
    it seems to be a recurrent theme in my dreams to be moved to tears by beautiful stuff, a dream landscape, or starry sky, or building of some kind, with wooden or stone sculptures and very high decorated ceilings usually..
    i am grateful for those dreams, grateful to a brain that comes up with them..

  87. Margaret says:

    that is weird, but good, just now I did receive the two older comments that hadn’t come through earlier on.
    they must have gone astray for a while.
    Jo, I am also in a situation right now with that guy from Cabo Verde, where I am not sure even whether I want to invest in getting together often to see whether it will work out or not.
    he still lives in the house with his family until his divorce is settled in a few months, so it is always at my place if we want to meet, and somehow I am reluctant to invite him over again, as he puts gentle pressure on me for starting something more than just friendship.
    on the other hand I don’t want to give up before having tried a bit harder, mmm.
    it takes so much energy, which should not be the case should it?

    • Jo says:

      Margaret, go with your instinct – it shouldn’t be hard work, no !…
      In spite of his circumstances, it doesn’t seem right (to me) that he always has to see you at your place…he needs to have his own place to invite you to..

    • Anonymous says:

      So, he’s getting a divorce but until it’s settled in a few more months they’re still living together under the same roof, meanwhile he’s gently pressuring you to go further in the relationship. Sounds like a clouded messy situation he’s in. It strikes me that feeling pressured into it is not a good recipe for a deep, enduring, loving relationship. Not being in the circumstances I could be wrong about him but what you describe makes me feel uncomfortable for you Margaret. Nor do I have much experience on which to go by. After all in my entire life I’ve only had one girlfriend, and my life is again barren of intimacy for many years now.


  88. Phil says:

    I share other things so I thought I would add this.
    Last evening I found myself alone at home with our Christmas tree undecorated, and with the task in front of me of at least putting up some lights, but not quite able to get going on it.
    Instead, feeling “iffy” I sat down at the computer to see if some songs would hit on feelings.
    The usual ones didn’t work but I found a new one that got me crying intensely. Kind of nonspecific, maybe just about all my years suffering feeling by myself, nobody with me.
    This shit is never ending, how much crying do I have to do? How can their be so much pain?

    I finally did put up some lights on the tree and my son came home and helped a little. My wife came later and didn’t like the light placement; frowning a lot, apparently the lights being too far pushed in on the branches. Something stupid, but discouraging, also bringing up feelings.
    How I like things doesn’t matter, my efforts are worthless. That’s why I do very little around the house. The living room has needed painting for the last 25 years, we never did it. I won’t touch it because anything I do will be criticized and diminished. I won’t paint anything even though I have a lot of experience with that.
    Every single leaf has to be removed, even under bushes. She’s a perfectionist who often seems to have the attitude that how she likes things must be the right and only way.. This deflates any creative impulses I might have. Those can only come out when decorating for holidays. Certainly old feelings here too. My mother no doubt, grandmother too (who was an extreme perfectionist).

  89. Margaret says:

    Phil, that’s too bad, I think it would irritate me too.
    I might try not to get in an argument about it but I guess I would have to say something about it, with a joke or something, like ‘sorry lady, if you would have liked it differently you should have done it yourself, this is how I like it but to please you as will I might move some of the lights a little bit outwards anyway..’
    my old feelings get triggered when I feel someone tries to dominate me, then I feel kind of grrrrr!

  90. Leslie says:

    I appreciate all that is told here. I relate a lot, am reminded of things and learn. I appreciate people exposing things that could easily remain hidden. Margaret you are a real leader in that.
    Having Larry point out how being hard on oneself can be a defense is helpful. Reading the intelligence and care here from so many is touching.

    I can imagine the defeat of your situation Phil. At work my supervisor often chooses someone who I too admit is excellent at a particular task. OK it is not my keenest interest – and other things are but by her always passing me over I feel hurt and angry. It sure isn’t helping me improve because instead I feel more and more intimidated and of course am truly losing out on practice.

    B.has his things he likes done – but so often does them – and I try to remember and make an effort. He fixes so many things – not always how I might choose nor in that order but omg he does them and I love it! I on the other hand will think about it all, focus elsewhere and not actually do it – which I don’t like.

    I have to share a funny recent story. I know B. won’t mind. I had asked him to please find the super or gorilla glue as I couldn’t – in the 2 min. I spent looking:) – and affix 3 pine cones on a wreath. I left the wreath and cones on the den couch and headed off to yoga or something important :). The next day I was actually focused on clearing up and went to move the wreath and whoa the whole thing was stuck!
    Yes, he had been so exhausted -(which isn’t a good thing at all )- that that was where he had done the job.
    Even alone I laughed. When B.returned home he was hysterical! and still laughs.
    It felt good – was remedied with a knife & wash & the wreath and a couple of stains (on the cushion’s underside now ) hang on!
    Happy Holidays to all!!
    ox L

  91. Jo says:

    Larry, have you registered with WordPress, in that you can sign in etc? You can choose a Gravitar(?) and that should resolve the issue …

    • Larry says:

      Jo, I have never registered with WordPress, nor signed in. Before, all I had to do was subscribe to this blog. But recently even though subscribed, I’m not recognized,

  92. Margaret says:

    I had another feeling dream this morning.
    the setting was a house with a lot of familiar primal people, als Barry B.
    at some point a diffuse but strong sad feeling started rising, until I allowed myself to break down on a couch, crying hard, and not caring about the people on the street who could probably hear me or anyone else around as the feeling felt genuine and right there.
    then it shifted a bit turned into need, triggered by Barry who did approach me, but I knew he was not going to meet my old need and in the dream I suddenly felt like the 3 or 4 year old chhbby me, crying hard and feeling a bit ugly, about not feeling wanted, or rather feeling not wanted.
    the ugly must have been mixed in because often being ridiculed while crying and very often being called chubbby back then…

    almost woke up too late for the things I had to do in the morning, but it does feel efficient to process feelings this way.

    Otto, my very first assignment was to stop eating my feelings away, during my intensive, just to order smaller and lighter meals, and it worked so well in letting more feelings come up.
    can you find ways to buy smaller amounts of food or potponing eating it all by focusing on the feelings first?
    I know it is easier said than done, have my own hangups which make it necessary not to have certain stuff in the house at all…

    sorry if this does not help one bit, just feel bad for you and try to help o
    in some way or another.
    do you consider adopting a new homeless little kittycat at some point?
    I can imagine your smile while picking it yp and playing with it..
    best wishes from me and the two cats here, M

  93. Patrick says:

    I found this to be an interesting and even moving video clip. I also thank Chris P for even making me aware of this issue of circumcision. I think it is yet ANOTHER of the ways children nowadays have hazards and traumas even WORSE than it was at least for me and a lot of the generation of that time. I would put childhood vaccinations right up there with circumcision even worse probably given the number of them nowadays

    Also it ties in for me to this “Jewish” issue………………….I have made it clear I am not too impressed by a lot of things done by Jews at least at an ‘organized’ level. Individuals is a totally different matter and believe it or not I meet 3 people who I like to chat with at the coffee shop most mornings and 2 are fully Jewish and the other one is ‘half’. So I don’t accept that I ‘hate’ Jews or something that is not true and I do resent Gretchen’s too quick on the draw with the name calling as I see it. But at an organized level I do feel it is quite problematic

    The way I see it now the average Jewish person is as much or maybe more a victim of this stuff. After all one of the main goals seem to be to keep the average Jewish person ‘in line’ in line with beliefs that are often not true and quite damaging to them even. Take this circumcision issue I believe most Jews go along with it and probably will for a long time into the future and it is helping them? , no I would say it is crippling them. Not a nice thing to do to your own people. And actually this also increases my understanding and therefore empathy for a Jewish person even now when I see one of the ‘elite Jews’ on television I have I feel a bit more empathy and understanding. So maybe for example Lloyd Blankfein has to make all that money because he is well ……………damaged. So please Gretchen do not take this as ‘hate’ it is actually an attempt at ‘understanding’ And this does not seem to be news to you anyway but it might be a bit more publicized’ even in the primal community don’t you think? Janov HAS mentioned it but not so much I imagine there is some cultural blindness operating there which is ok in that we all have that in one way or another. But I think it is helpful to get behind it.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      First off:- what’s to fucking prescious about your posts?????? I doubt that anyone goes beyond reading the last few items on the blog. From there on it it is relegated to the archives and hardly ever read again.

      However, You did seem to take my last ‘Flunking’ post REAL BAD. That’s a good start I would think in a primal context. I’ll put it in another context that strikes me.

      On the occasion you stayed outside the Primal Institute waiting for, ‘godo knows what’ … on seeing Vicky walk out, you yelled out her truth to her, about her condition. Presumably, you thought you were doing a service for mankind or whatever. I take it it’s ok for YOU to tell others their truths, BUT when I put your truth to you, as I did in that last post of mine. “Oh no!!!” all you could feel was the vomit and diarrhea, when I ventured to put some of yours to you. What’s so terrible about flunking???? I done plenty in my time; OR even being deleted? You never get to answer any of these questions; only to go off for you morning coffee and confer with you friends, no doubt getting their ears.

      One other point:- You seem to know what is and what is not hypocrisy … BUT seemingly fail to see your own … yeah! Go figure.


    • Leslie says:

      Patrick – Get real – this is not “an attempt at understanding.”
      You show us again and again how you lack the capacity – and instead crave the attention your anger ignites.

      • Patrick says:

        Leslie – you might consider this typical of my ‘arrogance’ but I believe it is not only at ‘attempt’ but it actually ‘suceeds’ at understanding at least the kinds of problems I have been wrestling with. What I mean is circumcision as a kind of basis of ‘bad behaviour’ and not only of Jews but also the peoples who have adopted this habit/tradition.

        I am thinking of the so called “British Empire’ who apparantly did adopt it in the 1800’s and co-incidentally or not (I think not) co-incided with their worst behaviour. This DID include the Irish Famine memories of which are still ‘alive’ in Ireland. An economically brought about Famine where money was the only God. Even projects to ‘help’ the Irish could have no ‘economic impact’ in other words had to be useless. Worship of ‘market forces’ etc of which we still see plenty of here

        Which bring me to the 2nd big adopter of this ‘habit’ the US Empire esp after WW2 which also co-incidentally or not (I think not) has coincided with some VERY ‘bad behaviour’ You might doubt this I suggest if you do ask the Koreans, Vietnamese, Yugoslavs, Iraquis, Libyans, Syrians, all of Central America and many more if you have the time

        So anyway I do believe it is a very important aspect and it IS an attempt at understanding’ whatever your objections to that are, A suggestion for you Leslie since you say you always like to keep things ‘personal’ and are allergic it seems to ‘ideas’ how about you tell us if you had your children circumcised or if you father was since you seem to have many issues about him. Who knows it might help us understand him and more importantly it might help you. You can even tell us about anyone else also if you want. This might be a better use of your time that ‘anal-ising’ me which you never seem to tire of. I wonder why?

  94. Yesterday (or was it the day before?) about 2,600 people were killed worldwide in automobile traffic. In Germany someone killed 9 people using an automobile.

    But because “intention” was involved those 9 mutilated bodies will be covered worldwide in huge bold letters on the front pages of 100,000 newspapers and countless radio stations, television stations, websites, and various social media posts.

    Those other 2,600 mutilated bodies yesterday? Bah, not even a mouse squeak.

    To me something is completely unacceptable about this. Mutilated corpses can’t awaken to go to work the next day regardless of whether “intention” was involved or not.

    I put “intention” in quotes here because it engenders a deep and pioneering discussion which I simply do not have time for.

    • It leaves me too exhausted and angry to think about news media sensationalisms and distractions. Those who control the media seem to control the world’s thoughts unless you are deeply insulated by the halls of academia.

      As hard as it is, I should forget about this topic now.

      • Phil says:

        What if it isn’t the media, but the public, that thinks a story on terrorism is of more interest or importance than traffic fatalities?

        • It’s the “chicken or the egg” syndrome there, Phil. Have you considered the public may only be interested in what the media employees choose to show the public in the first place?

          You’re familiar with Hobson’s Choice?

          • And before you Google it and write back to me telling me there are many internet choices out there, let me say that back when I was growing up there was only the voice of our television screens and newspapers. I was completely fucked at the time because fragmented information wasn’t readily available back then; it came from centralized sources.

  95. Phil says:

    I didn’t know but looked it up about “Hobson’s Choice”.
    You are interested in the story, found it, including those statistics.
    How do you feel about that story not getting high ratings.

  96. Otto Codingian says:

    Margaret, cant have any more pets. the thought of them outliving me and z, and they end up in the pound, well that thought is too much to bear. plus i owe thousands of dollars for vet fees for the pets i lost the past few years. not overeating is impossible for me. someone at work retired today and i am jealous of them.

  97. Otto Codingian says:

    we did not circumsize our sons. one of them got a circumsiscion at age 26 because we never taught him how to clean his pee pee correctly and so he got a syndrome that could only be fixed by circy. that was under generral anesthesia and cost many thjousands of dollars. circumcision would have been the LEAST thing that my kids would have needed to worry about. seems like a strange process. people are strange. when…

  98. Otto Codingian says:

    what i wouldn’t give for this type of energy. i have been dead all my life. makes me very sad.

  99. Margaret says:

    Otto, you are not that old!
    you might look at it the other way around, having a pet to care for and about is an extra reason to take care of yourself and stay alive and kicking for a long time still..
    but yes, I do understand the bills at the vet can be a problem.
    but in my case, if it were not for my cats I’d be much more depressed as they keep brightening up my life again and again and again.
    and yes, deep sadness is a price to pay for at some point having to say goodbye to a precious dear little being that shared your life, but you did give it a good home and a nice life as well in the meantime.
    this is just me and my view, I do respect yours entirely as only you can tell what is good for you.
    take good care, M

  100. Patrick says:

    Tim – you or anyone else might be ‘angry’ also if only as a self protective method if you knew at all times there is a Jack-ass lying in wait to Jack-off on you about Jack-all. There is no ‘mystery’ about me being one thing here or one thing there it pretty obvious if people would think a bit about it. But since Jack-off seems to ‘support’ the prevailing ideology here he gets away with a LOT. Primallers after all are just like any other religion/cult they want to feel about all ‘agreed with’ I do not provide that so Jack-ass can Jack-off all day about Jack-shit and it’s ok with everybody. Gretchen never banned him though to me he deserves it a lot more. At least I am trying to talk about something of substance instead of spider and fly games a la Jack-ass

    As far as you Tim ‘not liking’ what I say I suggest you can’t ‘afford’ to and I mean that in a very broad sense

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Quote:- “but I believe it is not only at ‘attempt’ but it actually ‘suceeds’ at understanding at least the kinds of problems I have been wrestling with.”
      So just what are the problems you have been wrestling with??? If indeed you are seceding in understanding them … does that mean you are able to deal with and resolve them … you don’t say.

      On the question of circumcision are you circumcised? If not what is it about this factor that seems to be a real concern for you???

      I kind of side with Margaret, feeling it is more of an Arab thing going way back before the advent of Judaism

      Another quote:- “Even projects to ‘help’ the Irish could have no ‘economic impact’ in other words had to be useless. Worship of ‘market forces’ etc of which we still see plenty of here”.
      Does this mean you might even be coming around to the idea that ‘money’ is the greatest inhibitor to living life???

      And a final quote:- “This might be a better use of your time that ‘anal-ising’ me which you never seem to tire of. I wonder why?” Ah!!!! now I see you are now becoming a great psycho-therapist or least-ways a good Anal – izer.

      From the one and only Jack-ass.

      • Patrick says:

        No I am not circumcised but New Flash to true believer Primallers it IS possible to be interested in something that does not have some direct personal impact. Having said that I am quite grateful that I am not at least I dodged one bullet in my in many ways unfortunate life. I actually feel very grateful and lucky the freaking British imbued us with so much crap most all of it ‘wrong’ and I swallowed most all of it. In a way I think the Irish were so prudish about sex in any way shape or form that really they pretended a boy did not have a penis so nothing to be done about it. It’s like that area of the body was “Dark Matter or Dark Energy” I was telling someone the other day I never even SAW my penis until I had my first erection around the age of 15! So I do feel it was ‘meant’ to be covered up imagine all that time versus a ‘cut’ boy that’s a big difference

        I am actually interested in this stuff about do Muslims do it? I have heard different things maybe not all the time or later in life maybe certain tribes or groups I really would like to know a bit more on that. If anyone knows I would appreciate it no Muslims on here I don’t think I imagine PT might seem a bit “Jewish” to them……..

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Quote:- “I dodged one bullet in my in many ways unfortunate life.”
          Fine if you so desire to take on something that didn’t happen to you … BUT there is a point which brings me to the next quote.

          Another one:- “so what’s the freaking point.” It was in your first three week therapy that you thought or told your therapist “what’s the point?” therein you LOST the very point and seemingly never regained it … ever since. However, by your own admission you “in my in many ways unfortunate life.” Might it be that you actually LOOK into why your life is so unfortunate??????

          And Oh!!! yet another:- “”Times are changing Gretchen and your particular type of is well past it’s sellby date………………
          It would seem you ARE AWARE that times are a changing. You’re hitting that moment … 65 y/o when … if you paid your taxes you might get a pension. I doubt you need to worry about Gretchen or the Primal Institute. I do feel that you NEED to start looking into those changes that are about to hit you.


  101. Margaret says:

    once more you are making simplistic generalizations.
    you seem not to know, or conveniently forget to mention the largest group of all that uses circumcision, the arab or muslim part of the world. now I don’t know if they all do it as I don’t like to think in groups and even within groups there are large differences as the different factions of muslims killing each other illustrate.
    but as far as I know a very large part of them are also circumcised, but I don’t go along with your explanation of that making them into some special kind of whatever you suggest….

    not that I support any kind of genital mutilation on a child. if adults choose to do it that is no problem of course.
    and of course it has been a part of the culture and not an act of viciousness, but well, I wish it does stop.

    but anyway, my point is you do not have a point there as always.

  102. Jack Waddington says:

    There is nothing intrinsically wrong, insane or, even inhuman about ‘Anger’. It’s a very simple human feeling. The only problem arises when we “act-it-out” as opposed to ‘owning’ it and expressing it in a non-threatening, non-damaging, non-blaming or, danger to others. SIMPLE

    Jack-off 🙂 🙂 .

  103. Patrick says:

    It seems odd (but quite typical) that I would need or be asked to ‘justify’ my interest in any subject, be in circumcision, vaccines, hoaxes whatever. Isn’t it enough I am interested in them all this having to relate all the time to something ‘personal’ becomes such a treadmill. Then it’s so ‘expected’ and then it’s ‘praised’ to me that is all so lame. People are discouraged and discourage themselves from doing ANYTHING or to be interested in ANYTHING without this constant lame primal grid over everything. And this circumcision stuff is interesting also how Janov is mostly AWOL on the subject for all his ‘primalling’ did he miss that one? To me also shows the importance of ‘culture’ which primal typically downplays it’s all individualism all the time and that’s another big hole. We are all meant to act like ‘culture’ does not matter it seems it matters hugely anyway enough from me I am pretty sure J-ass will J-off in a J-all manner so what’s the freaking point. Anyway for primallers this should be quite interesting or any feelings not done at the PI of no great interest

  104. Patrick says:

    This is an excellent and very strong statement by an Australian psychologist and watching it now I can’t help but feel the PI and Janov are AWOL on this issue. Of course it might upend their ‘culture’ and Gretchen might have to do more than hunt for mythical ‘neo nazis’ Times are changing Gretchen and your particular type of is well past it’s sellby date………………

  105. Patrick, One of my problems with what you post is that frankly you just don’t do your homework. You say things as though they are facts based on limited resources and a lack of knowledge. If you cared to research you would find that Arthur Janov spoke out against circumcision long before anyone else had a word to say about it. There are articles with Arthur cited as one of very few who noted the trauma of circumcision. As far as my seeing Nazis where none exist , well if someone says they are a Nazi or a white supremacist well, I think I will take them at their word and assume that is indeed what they are. As far as your use of the word culture or your claim that you now understand why Jews are so bad having withstood the trauma of circumcision you might want to look up Dr John Harvey Kellog ( yes the maker of cornflakes) and a well thought of physician at least initially. He recommended that all boys be circumcised ( and many listened) and it might shock you to know that he was not Jewish. Why did he do this you might wonder ? To prevent masturbation which he considered the ultimate evil. As far as your confusion about Muslims… Muslims are actually the largest group to circumcise boys. As an aside I do think your habit of writing off the opinions of others is extremely arrogant particularly for someone who fancies himself so open minded. For you to say to Tim that he does not agree with you because he can’t afford to is really ridiculous. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen you say “Arthur Janov spoke out against circumcision long before anyone else had a word to say about it” How about St Paul who spoke out quite strongly against it 2000 years ago and the whole of Christendom afterwards? You say this Kellogg guy was not Jewish………… what? Of course I am not saying it’s only Jews who promote this that was actually my point the Jewish INFLUENCE has gotten so huge and powerful and most people are quite unaware of it. Bush and Cheney were not Jewish either but they imposed and effected a very Jewish agenda wreck all of Israel’s neighbors that they feel ‘threatened’ by.. To me that is the real tragedy most of this wreckage is being done unknowingly. There are loads of people who are not Jewish in both the British Empire era and now the American Empire era who have been hugely destructive but my point again is to trace this back a bit further.

      I am genuinely interested in this Muslim and circumcision connection. If anybody knows anything I would be interested. Apparently circumcision is not even mentioned in the Koran so it can hardly be fundamental to the religion then. Of course Muslims ALSO trace their lineage back to Abraham who supposedly got this whole circumcision thing going so I just don’t know. This would really be just a guess……………but I find it hard to imagine that it is as consistent as in Judaism just from their ‘behavior’ alone. Then again I don’t know much about them and of course they have their ‘issues’ but the way I see it most of their issues are exacerbated and maybe even caused by us in the West. If left alone they seem to live contentedly enough in tribes and don’t feel to need to roam all over the world and dominate it that would be us…………………or ‘us’ under some very bad “influences”……………

  106. Sylvia says:

    I agree with you Gretchen. I’ve always read that Janov has been outspoken about the trauma of circumcision. His more recent opinions are voiced in the radio interviews on the PC website. There are eleven references also on the blog discussing the issue. He writes in “The Biology of Love,” book: “No child should be circumcised (if at all) until he is grown enough to understand and want it. Hurting a baby for what he deems is no reason can be very traumatic.” (p. 319)

    He later adds: ” I insist that inside most deviant behaviors and symptoms is a core of primal pains and it doesn’t matter whether it involves a lack of touch early on, circumcision, later being criticized,
    humiliated, denigrated, or being ignored by one’s parents. It is all processed as pain.” (p.328)

  107. Otto Codingian says:

    Blind Faith ☮ Sea of Joy chasefukuoka61 youtube. i used to listen to this in my early days of PT. driving my car from Long Beach to Pico PI on Friday nights when I could afford it. Desperately trying to get through the 405 traffic to get there by 7, if you were late, too bad. 8 track tape I think. So I could feel. Saw Gretchen or Terry. Learning to cry. This song, no if’s ands or buts, there is no stopping the tears, even if I don’t want to cry, which is my normal mode. The tune, maybe my friend played it for me, or maybe it was on the air in the 70’s when he died. Just makes me cry. Not sure why. dO This particular version on youtube has some nice trippy homemade video.

  108. Otto Codingian says:

    Larry, you are no longer anymous. order has been restored.

  109. Margaret says:

    hurray! after an 8 for the regular exam for philosophy, I got a 7 for the essay. that is very ok as I did not bother at all about the regulations for the lay-out.
    the feedback was so nice, that my approach was creative and subtle, pointing out the disadvantages of an overly rigid methodology., which was called a very modern view.
    that feels like a great comment which gives me inspiration and courage to go on. this is the little essay in which i used primal therapy as an example of valuable approaches that deserve attention.
    ha, this feels so good!

    • Leslie says:

      Wonderful news Margaret ! Congratulations on your hard work and your courage in choosing a different, individual topic important to you. That it is receiving a positive review must feel so good!

  110. Margaret says:

    p.s. he, (the professor) also said I had pleaded to break open science and had warned for methodological rigidity, a very modern point of view. I like that part which i forgot to mention, breaking open science, smiley!
    feel very happy as I kind of wrote about my true opinion here that means something to me as it is about a therapy and theory that changed my life so much for the better.

  111. Margaret says:

    thanks Larry, smiley

  112. miguel says:


    Patrick, I would like to say that Gretchen has been very generous to you and that it is a gift you would take into consideration and she deserves a much better treatment on your side.

    Margaret about your investigation about philosophy of science, I would like to say that Karl Poper PH. D, he was a big science philosopher that said that the best method for science was that of trial and error and that even the dialectical method should have this methodology and not be so dogmatic. He fought fiercely against idealism, even Hegel idealism and against believes disguised as science as could be Marx’s Marxism , and for that he was fiercely attacked . He attacked the claims of both psychoanalysis and contemporary Marxism to scientific status, on the basis that their theories are not falsifiable.

    I think Janov´s discovered Primal therapy was by trial and error. At least it says that in the first chapter of the Primal Scream, And Primal Theory true not only because its methodology is dialectical and it resonates good in my mind but above all, he says , dialectics has to put up with contradictions and criticism as Karl Poper would argue, and I think Primal therapy has done its job at least the Primal Institute I think has put up with contradictions and criticism and was able to set up a research to corroborate its discoveries and the tears research by Barry and has kept trying to catch up with science, neuro research. As Karl Poper would say let’s try that this theory to be false, make it be false . Falsifiable. And also Primal practice was becoming better by trial and error as Popper would say. Poper was in favor of and open society and its liberties, a liberal philosopher.
    He says that even dialectics should not be dogmatic. He wrote a famous book called The Open Society and its Enemies. Its paper about What is dialectic? is very good if you want to have a look


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Miguel: Just read a major portion of the link you provided. I was inspire to follow with my own thoughts:-

      If, as was postulated by Benjamin Lee Wharf, that we think in language; that leaves a great deal to be desired, if we are searching for “truths”
      The first dialectic as I see it is “Truth and False”. BUT who and by what means is ether delineated? I contend we first set out to create the more learned from the lesser learned. Again who is to say who is more learned and who is less learned. It’s all merely words (language).

      The problem as I see it is that once some notion is set in place and there is a general consensus that, it is so … then it becomes “fact” I would like to take that notion to task.

      We as a creature have the ability to learn. What follows from that, in the general sense of things is that having learned something we are now able to pass on that, that was learned by means of teaching. I suggest that the former in normal natural and instinctive … the later is contrived … usually from that learned. It does not follow. except in thinking … that product of language.

      If for one moment we are able to extrapolate backwards to a time before language, then all we had was a brain that operated on the very simple process of learning. Period end. So what was it, in our evolution that went off track and began a process of teaching.

      It’s a far fetched notion, but it was first formulated when Freud started to study the mind (brain or nervous system) and named/coined “neurosis”, BUT it was not until Danny Wilson and the Primal Scream, that anyone took to the trouble to define “Neurosis”. That person was Arthur Janov and if he is correct (which I STRONGLY believe) in his definition I feel; turns all our thinking ‘on it’s head’. We are more than thinkers; and science and ALL academic learning from there-on-in is highly questionable. I did not say “False”, merely questionable.

      Unless, IMO one has re-lived ones very early beginnings; the chances are that pure thinking is the essence of who we are as a creature. I refute that notion. We are feeling creatures first and foremost, just like all other creatures; until we crossed the Rubicon and assumed “thinking” made us Intelligent beings. Serving, as I see it, nothing more than a crazy civilization that is mostly about power and wars.

      I don’t buy it. Jack

  113. Congrats Margaret! Thanks Miguel! Gretchen

  114. Jo says:

    Margaret, well done – very rewarding for you!

  115. Margaret says:

    thanks Phil and miguel. miguel, I will send you a copy of the essay translated to English, I did include Popper smiley.
    I did leave out Bas van Fraassen who actually with his views comes closest to mine, but I did express my view . I had to shorten the essay as at first iI did mention him and Quine, two more recent philosophers who want integration and an open mind in combination with due respect for observational data.
    the first item in the reference list is the textbook I used which is very detailed and interesting and includes a final part about present evolutions in philosophy of science.
    will send you a copy soon, M

  116. Margaret says:

    thanks Gretch and Jo.
    I am starting to feel shy/embarassed, as I did not really aim for or expect congratulations, merely felt I needed to share my joy, and probably some pride or satisfaction really, and contentment.
    all these congratulations trigger some kind of feeling of embarassment, like expecting to be disapproved of for showing off or boasting or something like that.
    I feel both vulnerable and happy now, tears not far away,as I realize myself how we , or I, need to share specially happy events as well as sadness, nothing lonelier than having noone at all to share something good with. or probably it is worse to be scared and sad and to have noone, but anyway, sharing a succes seems very important too somehow.
    why does it make me somewhat sad?
    maybe I needed to hold back as a kid, wanted to protect my brother who did not equally well at school, and only my mom really valued good results, and probably overvalued their implications.
    it is a bit of a tangled up web of feelings there, maybe my dreams will untangle some of it..
    am starting health psychology now, seems a very interesting course, written by a professor from Colorado, forget his name right now, smiley.
    have to keep busy as the Literature search seems to be stuck with my fellow student not having time, and I seem to be addicted to have some course at hand nowadays.

  117. Margaret says:

    Daniel, that professor probably didn’t do his homework either, smiley.
    or he was one of these poorly educated sheep..

  118. Chris P says:

    There should be no doubt about how horrific the practice of routine male genital mutilation is; especially not here on a primal blog. The linked video above by the renowned psychologist condemning it is excellent. I like how emphatic and serious he takes it. But yet people still joke about it and there is a hint of joke by Daniel above. No one would think for a second that female genital mutilation was funny at all, or that it was something acceptable to joke about, but for some insane reason, I often hear people making silly little jokes about something that is far from funny. It really does destroy the most pleasurable aspects of sex for the male, not to mention it is a gross violation of bodily autonomy and rights. I’ve heard the analogy that it would be like going through life with more than half of your taste buds missing. If you never had all of them, you’d think you were tasting normally. That psychologist really nails it. I will never stop speaking out about this hideous and barbaric practice until it comes to an end.

    The fucking medical industrial complex in this country is totally insane. The ignorance of many physicians in their knowledge of general psychology is astounding. The fact that pediatricians aren’t up in arms about RIC (routine infant circumcision) is proof of their ignorance. Not to mention that they still routinely cut the umbilical cord immediately after birth. In my life I have suffered irrevocably from both of these experiences; it has taken me more than half of my life to come to terms with being suffocated and genitally mutilated at birth.

  119. Patrick says:

    I like your ‘seriousness’ about this issue Chris. And it makes me feel good that I CAN care about something that thank God is not or has to be of direct personal concern to me. Like all these questions that I pretty much always get here ‘why’ are you interested in stuff like this or that? Phil and I believe he means well often has said things like ‘why don’t you go on an anti vaccine blog’ or ‘anti chemtrails’ maybe now Phil you might wonder why don’t I become an ‘activist’ and go on an ‘anti circumcision’ blog? The point is I am simply talking about what concerns me at any one time…….it changes but there is consistent thread there also

    Speaking of ‘cutting’ I scroll up the blog and there is another one ‘cut’ by Gretchen something I wrote on Wed starting with “The” beyond that I don’t know I try to remember what it was about but I can’t. Given Gretchen’s MO it can ONLY be something she interprets as not being totally ‘cool’ with Judaism. How messed up is that? So NO Miguel I do not accept that Gretchen is doing such a great job with me. That’s an insult for her to do that each and every thing I write here is heart felt and genuine and the ‘truth’ as I see it. It is not for her to pick and choose and decide what goes or not. It just isn’t any “English Shopkeeperism” philosophy notwithstanding. Btw Miguel I asked you at least twice over 2 years ago if you were Jewish and you never answered for some reason of your own. I don’t think you would be ‘ashamed’ of it

    Maybe Gretchen feels she can do a little ‘cyberl-bris’ on me maybe it’s a bad cultural habit she has. Certainly wherever Jews are in charge ‘freedom of speech’ seems to be quickly threatened and that seems to be the case here in microcosm. Cut delete and discard what you don’t like including the foreskin. A nasty habit and i suggest Gretchen you might ‘primal’ that ‘primal something that actually might make a difference and or make a change in yourself. Stop bolstering yourself and your tribe all the time. This probably will get deleted also fucking pisses me off. And then she will go asking Tim if my behavior is of ‘concern’ to him. Always turn the criticism back make it THEIR problem so I’m the problem…………………………..well not really it just pisses me off big time to be ‘cut’ and ‘discarded’ in this way. Save your ‘bris’ for your own the Irish have been ‘cut’ and fucked over enough already thank you very much. And most all of it was done by that other Judaic Empire the British one so in my own small way I am objecting to this and I am again being ‘cut’ down by my ‘superiors’ or what the Irish call me ‘betters’. So Gretchen don’t you ‘worry’ about me worry about your own oppressive behavior here worry about the fact you seem to think what you do is ok.

    I thought if this circumcision crap could be stopped would things get better including the Jews seeing the deep error of their ways. Sadly probably not at least from the poor infant’s point of view. Infant vaccines are now established they are in the overall WORSE than circumcision but think about it it is the same “Spirit’ the spirit of destruction of innocence the ruination of childhood and all life and to me it comes from the same place the place that it is forbidden to criticize the holy of holies including ‘mandatory’ belief in the holocaust the whole shutting up of people and Gretchen does it here ‘cuts and discards’ me so as I say it is just a tiny microcosm it the least i can do a small small protest but something from small things……………………I wish I could be so hopeful

    • Phil says:

      It still seems so striking that you almost only talk about what you think are world issues and don’t relate them to anything about your life. Chris just commented on circumcision, which I agree is an important issue, and if he would stay around here I’m sure he would talk about other things, like what’s going on with him, as he did previously.
      But you just stay with the same old stuff: Jews, the Holocaust, chemtrails, vaccines. So my comment would still be the same, your stuff would be more appropriate to some other themed blog. You forget that this blog is oriented towards primal therapy and connections between people engaged in the therapy. It seems that you are striving towards poor connections with everyone, or to exactly turn everyone against you.
      Not to mention that nobody is interested in those topics you keep dumping on us. In fact people are often totally outraged by your views, which I guess is the reaction you are hoping for..
      If this is all benefitting you, it sure is a strange process.

      • Patrick says:

        Phil- I accept I am a bit ‘un-balanced’ in that way but most people here are imo a bit unbalanced in the opposite way so don’t I kind of provide a bit of balance then? Maybe not but I do find this thing of always relate something to how it makes YOU feel oppressive and just boringly predictable. All of this stuff I talk about I DO have feelings about it but it does not seem often to be necessary to put that about in public. I can meditate and dwell on the personal aspects of these things and I DO but that to me is a bit ‘private’ and also not actually of great interest to other people. At least I don’t think so. But it is a very important part of my ‘therapy’ at least for me like dwelling a bit now on this Irish Holocaust thing does ping my brain to a lot of pretty ‘old’ stuff both personal and as a race or tribe……………but it seems to me right now at least best to be kept ‘private’.

        • Phil says:

          It’s good to hear that you do meditate and dwell on the personal aspects of the things you talk about on the blog, but prefer to do it in private. I can understand that; it’s your choice.

          • Patrick says:

            Thanks Phil and I guess I should have explained stuff like that a lot earlier. It takes me a LONG time sometimes to do or say the obvious.

    • Larry says:

      You’ve not responded to Gretchen pointing out to you that Art Janov has written extensively denouncing circumcision, after you upbraided him for not having done so. Except to brush them aside, you never address the flaws people point out in your information or your thinking. You slander persons or groups of people. You blab away revealing to us what is the fantasy, prejudices and paranoia in your mind more than any useful meaningful connection to real people, real events, real life. For this reason long ago I stopped taking your ideas seriously, except that it bothered me from the beginning how you slander and bully people and groups of people, and how you almost never examine your own life and motivations.

      • Patrick says:

        It’s funny Larry it seems just as you were saying that I was responding to Gretchen about about St Paul etc

        • Larry says:

          Your response to Gretchen was a charade. It was a diversion from admitting you were wrong about Janov. You never admit when you are wrong about people or events. You find ways to sideswipe facts and continue with your fantasy. You never let in real facts that contradict your frame of mind. You harangue, with flimsy fleeting underpinning to reality.

          • Patrick says:

            No not a charade Larry just pointing out there was some good ‘wisdom’ around long before Janov. I do not subscribe to the BJ or AJ version of the universe (Before and After Janov) And ‘wisdom’ that has been derided maybe even because of it being “Christian” well it turns out they had/have some good ideas also. I don’t know how ‘wrong’ I am about Janov and circumcision but let’s put it this way it does NOT come across as one of his major concerns. You will read about oxygen deprivation at birth and how ‘crazy’ Muslims are and how ‘evil’ Germans were at least in his recent writings before you see anything about circumcision. But I do accept and appreciate what Sylvia wrote as she did dig up some things Janov said against it. But I even said something like that from the beginning of this discussion I just don’t think he or the PI did make a major point of it. Even look at Guru’s comment about Vivian in a group being pretty dismissive of it by saying ‘it’s just a bris’ or something like that. Hardly the words of someone who was imbued with any ideas about how bad it was. And she WAS Janov’s right hand woman and confidante for a long time so I imagine she would be very aware IT it was a major focus of his……………

            • Larry says:

              Thanks for taking the time to try to better explain where you are coming from, Patrick. All I want to take time to point out for now is that someone else who was there, perhaps Gretchen, has already pointed out that the relating of Vivian’s comment ‘it’s just a bris’ is a mishearing or misinterpretation of what she said. What bothers me about so many of your arguments is that they are for the most part supported only by hearsay and falsehoods, not fact. That’s all I have time to say for now. I hope in 1/2 hour to begin my day long trek across winter to family and friends for Christmas.

              • Larry: No, it was definitely not a mishearing of what Vivian said. She clearly and emphatically said it was a “briss” and I witnessed a whole group of guys in group proceed to become very upset with Vivian right after she said that. A long discussion about circumcision ensued with about 5-6 people involved (which achieved my goal of diverting everyone’s attention away from me in group at the time).

                I’m not saying this to defend Patrick; I am just sharing what I witnessed at the time.

                Chris: Personally, I’m neutral on this whole circumcision issue, yet I’m glad you are deciding to come to the blog more often.

                • Ironically enough, I bought a pair of $1,600 in-the-ear hearing aids to make sure I hear everything in group because Mark requested it at the time.

                • Phil says:

                  I guess with saying it’s a bris, Vivian was just naming the Jewish religious ceremony associated with circumcision . Did that actually indicate her attitude toward it? A bunch of people got upset in group; maybe not that bad a result. It seems you were successful in sabotaging your own therapy during group on that day.


                  • Phil: It was clear to me it wasn’t a big deal to Vivian at the time. Do know she was certainly willing to listen to what the guys had to say about it all, though, but as far as I could tell she simply went on about her business afterwards without a noticeable change of heart. Yes, the impression was very clear to me overall. I don’t hold this against her as others might, though.

                    That retreat was 2002, a long time ago. I really don’t think I was sabotaging any therapy because I really wanted to just observe and think on my own in that setting.

              • Patrick says:

                Larry it WAS a ‘mis-hearing’ on my part in that I had never heard the word ‘bris’ before Guru said ‘bris’ and I wondered what’s that? Breeze? Like it’s a ‘breeze’ so yes that was a ‘mistake’ of mine but I hope you can see there is/was no attempt at spinning it. I thought hmmm………….breeze? but the funny things is the result is much the same. Vivian seems to have meant ‘it’s not a big deal’ so ‘breeze’ ‘bris’ same difference so to speak

              • Phil says:

                I hope you have a good trip and enjoy your time with family and friends over Christmas.

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I really DO appreciate you did not delete this or any other posts today. You will find me a lot more reasonable IF I am not being deleted. That to me is the WORST insult to my efforts and my intelligence and the thing that really sets me off. . I will try to be as well spoken as I can but I do reserve the right to say what i am really thinking. It may change of course and usually does a bit at least over time but ‘well spoken’ does not mean hiding what i am really thinking/feeling.

  120. Patrick says:

    Speaking of ‘holocausts’ here is something about the Irish one. Looking at all of this now I do believe many more died in the Irish one that the one we HAVE to ‘believe’ in. I do disagree though very much about what he says here about how the Germans starved the Jews………………that was never a German plan I would go so far as to say that is highly ‘un-German’ but it WAS the British reality/plan they bombed all the access to the camps RESULTING in starvation and in typical British style they are then ‘shocked’ at the results of their own bombing! That iconic photo of all the emaciated corpes in one of the camps being dumped into a mass grave……………that tank is being driven by a British soldier NOT a German and he is just cleaning up the results of their own bombings. And that’s the ‘proof’ of the holocaust most people ‘remember’ or better said ‘mis remember’

  121. Patrick says:

    Sorry about that going on there twice it is interesting also he defines ‘holocaust’ also as being driven off the land……………..well in that case we have a big ongoing holocaust in the Middle East the millions of refugees and I do contend the real instigators of this holocaust are the one that endlessly cry about their own somewhat questionable one of 70 years ago.that we HAVE to believe in on pain of being ‘cut and discarded’. See if I get ‘brissed’ for this?

  122. Margaret says:

    Phil, I absolutely agree.
    Patrick is such a drama queen and a hypocrite, as those topics mainly serve to be obnoxious and if possible to attack or hurt people.
    he used, without any provocation of mine , the vaccination stuff to lash out to me in the most vicious way possible at the time my former cat got very ill and had to be euthanized.
    a truely nasty way, and Patrick, go back and look up what you wrote and do not adress me agin on this.
    he uses the Jewish topic to hurt and offend Barry and Gretchen and anyone else at hand, all seemingly to be able to then play the poor innocent wellmeaning victim.
    just so childish and tiresome and often simply kind of revolting.
    wish there was a way to have his comments looked at before publishing if acceptable for once if they are not an attempt to be offensive in some way.
    it is like someone shitting on a daily basis in the middle of the living room.
    he refuses to try and understand, on the contrary.
    just get lost Patrick, with this attitude you are just a nuisance here.

    • Patrick says:

      Ah ‘get lost’ yourself Margaret…………..I pointed out to you you were poisoning and killing your cat with vaccines You eventually DID kill the poor thing. Now try to LEARN something from this,I DID call it ‘correctly’. The same can apply to a lot of other stuff I write here it might ‘upset’ people or annoy them but try to THINK about it and above LEARN. Margaret for all your ‘studies’ you seem quite resistant to taking in anything that disagrees with you in fact I give you ‘credit’ for being the one who first and often called for ‘banning’ and Gretchen did hold off for a long time but then did give in. You were the one who first introduced this absurd idea I can even understand given your personal situation and the country you live in that ‘freedom of speech’ is not the greatest value there but I think it should be here (on the blog). Now ‘get lost’ also and don’t feel free to ‘unload’ on me as you often do…………

  123. Margaret says:

    Leslie, yes, you are right. it meant the world to me my personal view and opinion was paid attention to and appreciated.
    merry xmas to all of you up there!

  124. Yes, Merry X-Mas to all.

    Now that I’ve posted my observations a second time regarding what happened with Vivian in group, I want to take a moment to provide some anecdotal thoughts.

    I mentioned to Jack that I would become upset about female mutilation (as done in Africa)…and why Vivian would be OK with male circumcision while a lesser-feeling person such as myself would remain rigidly disturbed by the female side of the equation.

    What I am going to say next…I say VERY delicately, but I believe the overriding consideration beyond religious tradition should also be how much material you can give the doctors to work with during the procedure, with more material providing more ample room to “get ‘er done” without lasting trauma because the nerve endings are possibly less condensed. This may be one reason why I haven’t really been upset about this even though I underwent it.

  125. Chris P says:

    “Chris: Personally, I’m neutral on this whole circumcision issue, yet I’m glad you are deciding to come to the blog more often.”

    Larry, the cold weather in the Artic must be getting to you. Do really mean that you are neutral when it comes to cutting parts off a baby boy’s genitals?
    What does that even mean to be neutral? Does that mean you don’t think that circumcision is a gross violation of human rights or a hideously barbaric practice? Does this mean you think it’s OK for physicians to put steel cutting instruments to the genitals of newborn baby boys? Are you serious? Does this mean you are ok with permanently altering the brain chemistry and the physiology of baby boys? Wake the fuck up man! Do some research. In your home country of Canada in 1997, doctors were doing a study “to see what type of anesthesia was most effective in relieving the pain of circumcision. As with any study, they needed a control group that received no anesthesia. The doctors quickly realized that the babies who were not anesthetized were in so much pain that it would be unethical to continue with the study.”

    Please read this article:
    And watch this video and tell me if you are still neutral:

    That’s like someone saying they are neutral on a child being neglected or abused by his parents! That’s an odd and glib thing to say Larry. Your attitude is why this practice is able to continue: because there are people out there like you who are ignorant and passive about circumcision. Are you only neutral about male genital mutilation? Or does your neutrality extend to female genital mutilation as well? Jesus Christ. You take your pain and suffering to be very serious, but you are neutral whenever it comes to the pain and suffering of others. Wow! That would be like you coming on here and talking about how hideous cancer is and someone saying. “Oh I’m neutral about cancer.” Get fucking real Larry.

    And as a far you being happy that I am being more active on the blog, that feels like an insult to the injury. Here is how I read that,
    “Chris, thanks for coming on to the blog to complain about male genital mutilation. I don’t agree with you, but I am glad you came here to let us all know how you were feeling.” Well, fuck you Larry. I am not here for your joy. I have particular messages that I wanted to get out about my experiences with genital mutilation and being suffocated at birth. I thought this would be the place to get support. Of all the places where someone would say they were neutral about mgm, I never thought that would be the Primal Blog.
    I really hope you will reconsider your position. Or at least apologize for your wildly insensitive comment.

    • Sylvia says:

      Chris, I believe Larry has left on his trip to see family and just wanted to say that he did not comment on circumcision . I totally agree about this barbaric practice. Keep writing. You have full support here on this subject. I cannot watch all the way through the videos of babies undergoing this procedure, they are so tortuous.

  126. Chris, I believe it was Guru that said that and not Larry. Maybe I missed it. Guru, I’m not sure what made you think that anyone was questioning what you heard in the retreat group ( your hearing aid comment). You said now and from the beginning that Vivian said ” it’s a Bris”. Like Phil I wonder why you would think her naming that ceremony casually indicates her view on the subject but whatever. That being said I wonder if you noticed that the sentence was changed from ” it’s a Bris” to ” ” it’s just a Bris”. Slightly different meaning but maybe not important enough to speak up about. Gretchen

  127. I spell it “briss”…and I am in the minority here to where I don’t look at it as a big deal (much as Vivian seemed not to, either).

    If others WANT to be mad or upset about, I’m not going to say their viewpoint is wrong, will I? Why should I be in the wrong when I am not upset about it? (Especially considering I actually underwent the procedure!)

    • Chris: If you’re upset and outraged about it, I am not going to hold it against you at all. All I’m asking in return is that you don’t hold it against me either because I happen to not be upset about it in my own personal case. Either way, I guess you must do what’s right for you, then.

      • Chris P says:

        Haha, it almost sounds like you want me to be angry at you. I’m not. Please read my comment above. I always consider the source when reacting.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Guru: I have taken issue with you before and written about it on the blog. If others use pseudonym then they are not of the “conceited type as I feel yours is. ‘Super Conceited’ You say you find it fun, but I ‘suspect’ underneath all this, you actually believe you are endowed with wisdom. I don’t see it. You’ve stated that you are of noble stock (whatever that is meant to portend) AND don’t forget you actually signed off on your real name way back when. So!!!! I contend there is no secret as what your real name is. I agree with Chris, giving out ones real first name, in no way encroaches upon yours or anyone else’ privacy.

        Now this might be a little more controversial, but I suspect that anyone, and that includes you, that is “neutral” (a weird way of putting it) is because they have NOT RE-LIVED IT.

        Anyone re-living circumcision could not be neutral about it. In PRIMAL terms it is horrendous beyond belief. My feeling, and only mine, is you portend neutrality, precisely because you have never RE-LIVED IT.


  128. Patrick , Why do you want to know what religion Miguel is? More importantly what gave you the impression that he or anyone else owes you an answer? G.

    • Patrick says:

      OK Gretchen – that’s a fair question. To give you the context over 2 years ago during the bombardment of Gaza by the Israelis there was a discussion about Arabs and Jews. And well no need to repeat my take but Miguel the way I remember was quite ‘strong’ on the idea that Israel represented ‘civilization’ and the Arabs ‘barbarism’. i found this to be such a weird belief so i ‘argued’ a bit with him about it and basically got nowhere. So yes then I asked him almost as a last resort to understanding “Are you Jewish?” Miguel did not answer so later as this kind of discussion went on I asked again. Still no answer. it’s his right that’s for sure but it is my right to wonder why. And I still kind of wonder why actually 2 different wonders `1. is Miguel Jewish?f 2. Why does he not say either yes or no. So again fine if he does not answer but also fine by I think to voice my questions. It’s also fine of course if he is Jewish.

  129. Gretchen: When you find the time to remove Chris’ posting would you please also undo his malicious handiwork on his 11:06 and 11:08 postings? Thank you.

  130. Chris P says:

    just don’t talk(write) to me on here and then you won’t have to worry about your “rights” being violated. It is that simple. I didn’t make any comment to you specifically, so just ignore me when I come on here if you don’t want me to call you by your name. Maybe everyone else will go along with your bullshit charade on here, but not me.

    And since you seem to need my attention today, I will add that I find it curious that you are so up in arms about protecting your so called “rights” here on the Primal Blog, but have no concern at all that your rights were viciously ignored when you were an infant boy and had your genitals sliced up against your will. Ok, so let’s see, what’s more important? That you use some ridiculous moniker here instead of your real name and that gives you privacy and has something to do with rights? Or the fact that as an infant you were forcibly held down, cut, and irrevocably changed for life? gees man wake up, life is short.

    • Chris: You called me Guru in the past out of courtesy. If you want to make it UG because you don’t like the implications of Guru-dom, that’s fine with me as well. I laugh about the Ultimate Superstar Guru name because it amuses me. If someone else believes I REALLY believe I am a Guru (aka a megalomaniac), that is their problem when it’s simply an arbitrary name for me.

      If you’re so big or removing charades, why not strip the privacy of other bloggers here while you’re at it? There are several people here using pseudonyms. So why are you choosing me in particular?

      Just because you’re upset over circumcision doesn’t make it a law that I should be upset about it as well. Hell man, I’m upset about 600,000 auto traffic deaths since 9/11, but most everyone else aren’t nearly as upset about the issue as I am. Do you see me stripping their privacy just because they don’t see things the way I want them to?

      That’s the difference between you and I, and that’s why I don’t appreciate your passive-aggressive violation of my privacy rights and I would like for it to stop right away. Thank you.

      • Chris P says:

        I know what you would like but it’s not going to happen. Who do you think you are? The Artist Formerly Known as Prince? Or John Cougar Mellencamp. I can imagine these little control freaks running around telling people who and what to call them. This is small, sir, very small.

  131. Margaret says:

    chris, what is up with you?
    you compare two things concerning Guru that have nothing at all to do with one another.
    this seems a lot of anger and indeed passive agression for reasons only you can tell.
    Guru has all the right of the world to request his privacy being respected if that is what he wants, and I feel it is rude and inappropiate and very provocative to go against struck me rightaway as some kind of provocation. do you have some undealt history with him or what?

  132. Chris P says:

    Margaret, I do not have any undealt history . I just find it ironic that someone would be so concerned about pseudo “privacy rights” over real rights violations that take place in infancy…there is no comparison and you are making my point.

    Me calling you Margaret or you calling me Chris here has no element of a lack of privacy…using someone’s real name in an obscure forum on the internet represents no invasion of privacy…these are generic names and in no way reveal a person’s identity.

    To me it feels more like some kind of control he’s trying to exert on the group and I do not want to go along with this unreality.

  133. Margaret says:

    I find it interesting you see it as a control issue. any idea where that comes from?

  134. Chris P says:


    yes it comes from me not wanting to give in to his bullshit demands.

    Or maybe it comes from being suffocated at birth to near death? Or maybe from being forcibly held down and having one of the most important parts of my penis removed a day later? And top that off with a childhood filled with neglect and indifference. And all of these experiences have irrevocably change the course of my life to where I am now here on this retarded blog fucking arguing with morons about whether I should use someone’s real name or some idiotic pseudonym. Instead of going to yoga, or to the beach. Or phoning my great buddy Jack and getting to the real feelings.

    What do you think Margaret Freud?

  135. Phil says:

    You’re angry today, it seems. But I wonder is that directly related to circumcision and being suffocated to near death at birth, or did something else happen to set this off?
    It doesn’t follow that having had a trauma that it’s necessary to be activated about it, is it?
    I was circumcised, and am against it, but not really activated about it, except where I have been able to actually do something, like preventing it with my sons. I have other things that activate me more, for whatever reason.

  136. Chris P says:


    please read the thread and you will see what pissed me off today. Just to recap: I mistakenly thought that Larry wrote that he was neutral about male genital mutilation and it set me off. I have known Larry for a long time and had always thought of him as a very caring and sensitive guy; so to think he wrote that really made me angry. Just for the record I still feel that way about Larry.

    But anyway, the whole subject pisses me off. And yes it is directly related to having my life ripped off from me. I am acutely aware these last couple days of how severely damaging those early experiences were. My mother is a dumb ass who did nothing to take care of me. The medical professionals should have known better, but they are even worse. They are the ones who cut me up, nearly killing me. And also gave her the justification for neglecting me later on and called it the “cry it out” method. Taking something as harmful to infant and making it sound legit by calling a fucking method. The fucked up thing is that they are still doing the same things today to new borns that they did to me. Today in this nation some 60% of newborn infant males are cut, many of them with little to no anesthesia. Even if there is anesthesia, that does not prepare the tender boy for the pain that follows and as an adult when he realizes that a valuable part of his body has been amputated for no reason. The umbilical cord is still routinely cut immediately after birth. And they justify these practices with “science” and “data”.

    So, yes Phil, I am fucking angry.

    • Phil says:

      OK, I have a better understanding. It is messed up and abusive what happens to newborn babies, and parents, unfortunately, are ignorant. It is very difficult to go against the medical system.
      Here’s a song I was just listening to which sums up a lot of things for me. The words don’t exactly fit but it’s close enough:

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I would like to tackle the circumcision thing from yet another angle, that so far as I see, has not been addressed:-

        Way before we humans crossed the Rubicon (take that how you will) the birth of a baby was not a medical procedure and certainly the idea of cutting the foreskin of male babies has been rationalized as being more clean. My take:- if the foreskin of a male penises or, the clitoris of females was not meant to be … then why did nature provide them?? I’ll take a guess, though I could be wrong, The foreskin is a means of protecting the head of the penis that is a gland and assists in the sexual arousal … least-ways it did for me.

        The same applies to the female clitoris. It has a reason and from what I gather it also assist in the sexual arousal of females. That, in the study of medicine it was deemed necessary to cut away something on the body WITHOUT considering why nature provided it in the first place, is remiss IMO. That it becomes a ritual, be it religious or otherwise is not in-and-of-itself justification … medically or otherwise.

        The other matter is considering that the birth of a baby is a medical procedure. WHY!!!!.

        Women from what I gather, just left the tribal parade; went off to the side and just gave birth. They did not, as far as I know have knives to cut the umbilical cord and from what I know (limited though it be) if the umbilical cord is left alone; it withers and the baby takes it own time and instincts and then starts the use it’s lungs as it’s (the babies) moment in time requires. See Leyboyer.


  137. Patrick says:

    Not my place to take sides in any of this though I do take Chris’ point about the anger he feels. At the same time I think Guru can choose to call himself anything he wants and that should be respected. We all have ‘made up’ names anyway some of us go along with what we were given other’s like Guru makes up a new one. I really don’t think that should be controversial.

  138. Daniel says:

    No reason to dive into Patrick’s new found angle of Jew-hating – any reasonable man or woman, even without specific knowledge of how history is collected or studied, can easily see how his arguments stem from and are subordinated to a single racial/political idea that doesn’t hold any water, and so can comfortably spot the fallacies inherent in any and every twist or turn of his thinking on these matters.

    But I do wish to make a few points. Circumcision, which apparently began in ancient Egypt, has been for generations and still is part and parcel of Muslim and Jewish faiths. Jews do it on the 8th day after birth (if baby is healthy), and Muslims do it sometimes before reaching puberty, but usually within the first two months of life. Some Muslims follow the ancient tradition of circumcising at age 13, the age, per the biblical story, Abraham circumcised Ishmael.

    I am circumcised as is my son. Nearly all Jewish and Muslim males are. Although it may sounds horrific it isn’t so. I have nothing to compare it with, but I have been enjoying sex my entire adult life, and when I haven’t it was for emotional rather than physical reasons. My son cried a bit at the bris and fully healed within a week or so which went by without any trouble or visible pain.

    Male circumcision cannot be compared to female circumcision still common among some Muslim societies, because unlike the removal of the clitoris the foreskin is easily detached and removed, the wound heals quickly (many times it doesn’t even bleed spontaneously), and the intent is never to control or remove sexuality.

    I don’t think circumcised men have more emotional problems when compared to their originally-equipped comrades, and according to the World Health Organization they have fewer physical problems (for example, there is wide ranging programs of circumcision in Africa as part of the battle against AIDS).

    Finally, it comes down to parenting. If parents are loving and caring, are attentive, are gentle with the baby, the whole thing is very much like any other incident of minor injury so common in childhood and adult life. If, on the other hand, parents are not loving or responsible enough this sure can become traumatic. If that is the way they are then unfortunately the trauma will come sooner or later, one way or another.

    • Phil says:

      I see circumcision as an extreme violation of a child’s rights. There are no
      clear cut health benefits and there surely must be preferable alternative ways to stop the
      spread of AIDS in Africa.
      There is the physical trauma, sometimes large, but maybe not always,
      and the loss for life of that tissue, which is there for a reason. Not to mention
      the trauma of having ignorant and unaware parents who would allow this
      to be done to their child. It is an avoidable elective surgery and the child has no voice
      on it. Like all surgeries there are possible complications. Such as; too much is
      cut off, ineffective application of anesthesia, infection, inflammation, poor after care. It should be outlawed, it is an outrageous violation.

      I don’t see how you can make any comparative evaluation of the emotional
      health of men having had the procedure as infants or not.. Maybe you just want
      to imagine there’s no difference. It’s a nice thought.
      Many of us have been heavily traumatized by a whole host of other things
      so that circumcision could be obscured and not easily assessed.
      That men don’t remember it is no evidence that it isn’t traumatic. The baby cries,
      but was that all the crying necessary. Probably not. Or maybe that’s all that was possible after the major traumas of birth and hospital procedures .

      I have seen a lot of information available on the impaired sexual functioning
      of men who had the operation as compared to those who haven’t. Although I had the procedure, I don’t dwell on it. It’s too late, there’s nothing to be done for me other
      than reliving the trauma, if I’m ever able to do that. Besides circumcision I’m
      sure that neurosis in general impairs sexual functioning and enjoyment. I can say
      that I’ve noticed the difference as I’ve progressed with therapy. But there’s nothing
      that will replace actual lost tissue.

      It’s clear to me that circumcision is a barbaric practice associated with irrational
      religious beliefs and perpetuated by our neurotic societies.

      • Chris P says:

        thanks for writing this reply to Daniel. I was a little exasperated feeling like I had to address some scary things he wrote. I can rest easier tonight.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Daniel quote:- “I am circumcised as is my son. Nearly all Jewish and Muslim males are. the whole thing is very much like any other incident of minor injury so common in childhood and adult life. I have nothing to compare it with, but I have been enjoying sex my entire adult life, and when I haven’t it was for emotional rather than physical reasons. My son cried a bit at the bris and fully healed within a week or so which went by without any trouble or visible pain”.
      My understanding is that circumcised men do indeed enjoy sex; BUT my question is:- might it be even more stimulating with a full foreskin … as nature intended????

      Re-quote:-“the whole thing is very much like any other incident of minor injury so common in childhood and adult life”. Daniel: I find this line of yours to be very, very disturbing … if you mean that circumcision is like any MINOR injury. (emphasis mine) I can NOT agree. I believe that Arthur Janov would not agree with you either. Have you ever approached a re-living of your own circumcision???. If you do not wish to answer that question I will accept that.

      When I was attending Sex Compulsive’s Anonymous, SCA for my own sexual addiction, I did encounter several Jews in the group who talked very vociferously about their Jewish culture, rites and rituals as being very impeding on their sex lives, especially if they were gay. It seemingly, took a great amount of time for them to overcome what they described as The anti-sexual indoctrinations within their Jewish culture and upbringing,


      • Chris P says:

        I agree Jack. It is no minor injury. Someone may be unaware of the damage or minimize it, but that in no way takes away from the real gravity of the loss of sensation and trauma experienced by the tender baby boy who gets sliced up.

  139. Otto Codingian says:

    Ellie Goulding – Anything Could Happen. that is a lovely little song. they say it is about a car crash. i was about to walk the dog at 3:30 this morning when i heard a car braking hard and then a horribly loud crash. i put the dog back in the house and hurried to look. car had crashed into the garage gate of an apartment and was mangled and upside down. i was unable to do much to help except call 911. i am pretty sure the person must have died. i “saw” or felt a crash was coming into my life, not the first time either, my wife has experienced this phenomenon also before. either it is a side effect from living in a big city full of roads full of speeding cars, or there is actually another dimension that includes seeing into the future. of course in l.a. you hear every day on the radio of the tragedies going on at the same time we are trying to drive somewhere, so it is pretty predictable. But not too much heard on the radio cautioning knuckleheads to slow down. A big gap, unconsciousness, or herd mentality, safety in numbers? But what I mean by “I saw” this accident going to happen feels pretty real. I do believe in that realm.

    • Otto: I’ve had both my mom killed in an automobile when I was very young and a circumcision. I definitely agree the former was a much more difficult and complicated situation to deal with.

      Thank you for seeing the forest for the trees and I’m sorry you had to see that.

  140. Otto Codingian says:

    “anything can happen”. who knows what will happen 2 seconds from now? comet hit earth and wipe us out? lose mom at 10 months old? best friend die at age 23?d listen, einstein did notr really get it, or maybe he did, but most of us don’t speak math. big quick cry here, 5th harmony version as good or better.

  141. Leslie says:

    Its way back up there – Patrick so sure he knows knows so much more and has me pegged for being “allergic” to what for him are new ideas. Assumptions and such poor research again.
    There was no question for B. and I re our sons – and that was 27 years ago. I am against circumcision and have been since way before their births. B. – and yes even my dad – no surgery.
    (I appreciate that I have no religious nor cultural traditions to complicate the issue.)

    Vaccinations too – we had them delayed by a month and were lucky. I say that because I have known 2 families whose child died without the protection. It wasn’t the fear of autism as that link was/is not supported with credible sources – but hoping the extra time gave their bodies more time to develop. Have you ever thought about how autism often begins to present itself when a child is 1 yr.- 18mos. and that it may be an easier way to for the grieving parents to accept something is wrong – by blaming vaccinations… (Not a question to answer or post more about please.)

    More importantly – what is my struggle here. My dad missed the point – missed the boat. In all his efforts to prove how smart he was and educated ( and he actually was) he missed out on living and loving. His false sense of superiority, of knowledge only further alienated him from family and friends. It was all he concentrated on and in the end had.

  142. Patrick says:

    Leslie – your description of your Dad and your conception of me (sounds weird you certainly did not ‘conceive’ me interesting the way words are used though maybe I need to read Benjamin Lee Wharf I mean Whorf) seems awfully the same. I am not going to get all primal on you and tell you to “”RE–LIVE it” or else you are just ‘in your head’ and ‘lost’ as an acceptable primaller I’m sure Jack can take care of all that business or maybe he saves that ‘treatment’ for people HE has some kind of ‘issue’ with which brings up the thought that maybe HE should “RE-LIVE” that lol. I know you said you don’t want to hear any more about vaccines but the ‘fact’ that you “known 2 families whose child died without the protection.” well let’s say my feeling is Leslie you sort of unerringly take the wrong side of the stick they way I see it.Your idea that parents ‘blame’ vaccinations to cover something else that is wrong well to me that is beyond silly vaccinations nowadays are being pumped into kids from infancy and you must know that ‘autism’ becomes manifest as the child can’t do certain things. Also you discredit the many many parents who KNOW their children better than anything and can SEE the change literally from the giving of a vaccine. This kind of ‘talk’ makes me as mad as Chris is about “circumcision is ok” talk. It’s clearly NOT and as I said before I do believe vaccinations are a lot worse nowadays because of the sheer amount of them, the timing way too soon and the extreme CRAP in them

    That is another reason I see circumcision as so insidious even as an ‘idea’ it gives and has given the go ahead for all kinds of interference with natural processes it typical of humans who think they know better than nature, that they can improve on nature. The sheer hubris of an idea that some part of your body and a very essential part is not necessary is so crazy but also so arrogant that is one reason now I do admire for example St Paul very much he was so clear against it and so was the Catholic Church up to modern times when they ‘sold out’ on most all of their principles to join so called ‘modernity’ I will not talk about who or what drove so much of this ‘modernity’ as I promised Gretchen I will try to be ‘well spoken’ and it’s Christmas after all.

    It is interesting also Chris talked about the placenta apparently in ‘indigenous’ cultures all over the world the placenta first of all was allowed to ‘fall off’ of it’s own accord sometimes the infant stayed connected to it for days and then when it feel off there were all kinds of traditions about it but the main point if was treated with REVERENCE in some cultures it was ‘buried’ and then given back to the man the day he married and other stuff like that. One idea I thought was so nice in some cultures they regarded the placenta as the child’s “twin” they were 2 souls and when the young infant or child smiled they said the placenta was ‘talking’ to him or telling him a funny story or something.An amazing contrast to the hacking and cutting and interference in our so called ‘culture’ the culture of murder and suicide……………

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Patrick: I’ll put my two cent in here and see if something just might get through to you a la Primal Theory; my idea the way nature intended it. Just mine.

      If when a woman becomes pregnant and she wants the child and is prepared to give it all the love and caring she can. AND loves the father of the child and he too wants to the baby to join their relationship. AND that neither the pending mother nor the father were severely damaged in their own childhoods; then I feel that baby stands a great chance of surviving, has a very good immune system and then, and only then, chances are vaccines are unnecessary. BUT … too many conditional ‘ANDs’ in there.

      It’s all a crap shoot … medicine, diets, behaviors, rituals, therapies and on and on and on (you name em) . I’ve taken the one that suits ME best and that’s the Feeling route. Each will take their own. BUT death is inevitable. Hopefully the time between birth and death we get a good deal out of it.

      My feeling is nature had it all worked out for us … until …………….. ????? we failed to cross the “Rubicon” So!!!!! cut the crap and let us all do it our very own way.


      • Patrick says:

        Jack – that’s cool but I want to say something and this is not to (once again) disagree with you but you have said something similar before about vaccinations might not be necessary IF everything else was OK “and then, and only then, chances are vaccines are unnecessary”

        I see that as entirely wrong the idea that vaccinations somehow makes up for some other weakness………………..imo they ONLY exacerbate and make worse any existing weakness. So I would see it the opposite way if everything is otherwise OK MAYBE a child has some chance of resisting the horrible effects of vaccines. In no way do I see them as bolstering a weak immune system or whatever I only see then as DESTROYING the immune system. This i am sure to most people including here probably seems like a nutty idea………….but take circumcision as an example. As Chris pointed out doctors talk all kinds of nonsense about the value ot circumcision the stuff they talk about vaccines is just the SAME ONLY WORSE. The effects are potentially far worse than circumcision I was going to say ‘trust me on that’ You probably have no reason to but you should. I believe if we survive at all time will show this to be true also

        • Jack Waddington says:

          I repeat:- “It’s all a crap shoot” When things go wrong medically or psychologically for us humans; over time we have developed various remedies to counteract the malady … BUT and this is the ‘big but’, (where we might agree): There is almost always a side effect. Take your pick.

          My mother, for her own good reasons dealt with us kids by way of herbs. There was within 100 yards of our house a herb shop and my mother was a frequent shopper there. We as kids hated them … most were bitter and my mother never strained the herbs which we had to strain through our teeth. Aggghh

          Oh!!! for a real live doctor and pills that we could swallow, without all that bitter herb stuff. It was like … if only we had money like other families and could do it the modern way..
          However, we were all of us vaccinated against diphtheria and small pox, which was offered free by the local council. Not one of us suffered any side effects from the vaccines as far as one could tell. Why was all that???? Was it because we did have a loving and caring mother EVEN though dad was of the notion that children had to be be tamed by having our spirit broken????


  143. Patrick says:

    This thing of a part not being necessary reminds me when I first came to LA I ‘experimented’ working on cars (my own broken down one) anyway I did pretty good taking it apart but the problem came when I was trying to put it back together. At least twice I had a part I ‘decided’ was not necessary and kind of threw it away or anyway after everything was put back it was too late. A friend of mine who was an actual mechanic was appalled he says some part or other was the ‘flange’ that kept the water from the water heater or something like that and I thought ‘oops ALL of these parts are there for a reason” But I was just a chancer ‘mechanic’ one would hope that doctors with years of training would know that very well.

  144. Patrick says:

    Apparently a reason they cut the chord so soon also is hospitals ‘harvest’ the blood in the umbilical chord for stem cells etc etc. So this blood that the infant still NEEDS is taken and SOLD to make money. I saw a video of a child being born and the chord is allowed to stay connected and it was weird looking at it reminded me of some of these ‘rock and roll gods’ with the long chord connected to an amp or whatever. And it seemed maybe the original chord is cut too soon and forever after we look for ‘power’ in electricity etc etc.Endless power substitutes forever after

  145. Patrick says:

    There was that famous Moody Blues album “In search of the lost chord”

  146. Patrick says:

    If you listen to this and every time she says ‘vaccinations’ substitute ‘circumcision’ you kind of get the deep nonsense in BOTH of these procedures. So let’s not think ONLY ‘circumcision’

  147. Margaret says:

    early xmas evening here, almost.
    start to feel pretty down, a bleak kind of hopelessness, like nothing to look forward to really.
    brother was here for a while with our mom.
    visit was ok, mom nice but a bit childlike of course, but sweet really.
    while brother did a little reparation encouraged mom to play the piano, suggested some xmas songs which she played right away, some perfect, some a bit off key occasionally.
    now feel lonely, and feel bad about all the anger and bickering on the blog, mostly about Chris sneering at me. gues he is in the middle of dealing with all his anger, sigh…
    or maybe i was saying something stupid, but don’t feel I did do so in a nasty way.
    suddenly start feeling very sad.

  148. Margaret says:

    o guys please. can’t we just assume truth like it usually does, lays in the middle about the vaccine topic etc.?
    too many vaccines too early and it can cause severe problems, no vaccines and we would still have polio and other nasty diseases around.
    can we do something else but argue this evening?
    maybe try to find something nice to say about one another?
    or is that too difficult?
    in my actual spirit I can easily say I like the gentleness of Otto, sylvia, Phil, Larry, just to mention the first ones coming to mind, and Jo and Leslie and forgive me for not being able to think properly here.
    I know the others have kindness in them as well, but right now it seems overshadowed by the anger so at this point I won’t come up with anything nice, although I do care for all of you.
    wish people could simply be nice and caring in general.
    probably the bottom line of my old feeling of the day.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, very nice sentiment to say something nice about each other. I’m very fond of people here too and feel a real connection to good people.
      I had whooping cough when I was five, brought home by my brothers. They had a mild case but mine was a long time recuperating. It hurt my mom to see us vaccinated and she didn’t want us to have that pain. She regretted not getting them and me a shot. My immune system was poor and I was a weak kid and always had the flu worse and missed a lot more school from illnesses than my bros. so I just had poor immunity unrelated to vaccines and probably more related to gestation time.

      I remember when I was about six and we were all going to the clinic for our polio shots. I threw such a tizzy that my mom said we would wait on mine; a few months later I wasn’t so upset about it and had it done. I was grateful that she understood how scared I was, and for the most part was sensitive to little things like that.
      You all have nice happy holidays, my friends.

  149. Margaret says:

    watching David Attenborough’s program about the history of vertebrates.
    he visits a lot of fossile finding spots in China.
    one specimen is a little dino about the size of a cat, walking on its hind legs, with teeth, and remains of strands of fur could be found. on closer examination it appeared the tail had a fur with rings of white and brown. cute little dino, and a predecessor of the next step in evolution, where the single hairs developed in the more complex structures of feathers, thus allowing some of the dinos to turn into birds.
    the first pleasant program I found on television this xmas eve day…
    so much hyper loud music fund raising and bringing charity cases of disabled people on the stage etc.

  150. Otto Codingian says:

    big loud feelings at group today about kid#1’s horrible birth. tried to share it with z, knowing i would be disappointed with her reaction, and i was. wish i could understand her and give her love but i have no idea who she is anymore. she face-tlimed me and i showed her the house, which is a mess, and she got on my case about it. i will now stop talking about her. i wish i could love her but the gulf between us is she calls and wants to facetime opening presents. i hate opening presents. i am such an asshole and i know it is probably important to the kid. i hate her tradition of xmas eve opening presents. i can barely stand it on xmas morn with a good cup of coffee and the day ahead still possibly hopeful and sunny. grinch me.

  151. Margaret says:

    Christmas morning 8 a.m…
    just had a cry. listening to the news on the radio with an item about a meal for lonely people, where 100 persons attended and ‘had a good time’.
    it hit me that even there I would have felt lousy. not hearing well in such a setting, even with the hearing aids, not seeing well, while what I need so badly is connection.
    feel I could cry again…

    still it feels better now the feeling coming up, much better than remaining stuck in the pre-feeling zone.. that is awful, just nagging pain and hopelessness and fear.
    now it feels like ok, sadness and then moving on.
    Sylvia, such a nice comment, gonna reread it in a while. so nice it was actually your mom you did say something very good about. it must be that quality she passed on to you.
    Otto, thanks for sharing that feeling breakthrough in group. sad you feel the lack of connection with your wife, but still you sound very real about yourself. hope you can enjoy the sunny day and little Otto with you.
    UG shortly after writing the comment yesterday about the nice people, it dawned on me i had not mentioned you. but you do belong to the people that, unless it is necessary due to strong provocation, avoids to hurt people and stand up for them even on occasions.
    Jack, you consoled and supported me many times when I was feeling lonely on retreats, you spotted me and came up to me while others had other stuff to do, and I am very grateful for those moments.
    Patrick, you gave me a lot when we were roommates so I know you can be very caring and gentle as well, hope we see and hear more of that side of you in a more direct way than through subjects that raise your interests, that would be nice.
    Chris, you also gave me a lot of support and affection. I did feel somewhat hurt when my cat died and all I got was a brief comment here ‘sorry about your cat’, hoped for a call or something but I guess I could have reached out myself back then.
    you have a lot of anger to deal with but you did never hold it against me when I felt I needed to say something difficult to you, which is a great quality, you heard it and heard the intention.
    sorry if I hurt your feelings yesterday.
    Daniel, I have never met you in person, but you come across as a very generous and wise person, hope to meet you some day.
    Miguel, you too are generous and despite the hardships of your upbringing are so positive and created yourself a good life. congratulations for that and I wish you the best with your enterprises.
    Gretchen and Barry, what can I say, smiley? the mere fact I can allow myself to be vulnerable around you guys says it all, thanks so much for that and for all your support. whish you a great holiday season.
    Margaret and Pluche and Plukkie the cats

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I find your Christmas morning message quite beautiful and even makes me a bit teary. Something to do with ‘stop fighting’ or ‘forgiving’ which I found so beautiful and necessary also as a child. My/our whole life was a ‘fight’ a fight to survive, survive the bullying kids all around us but also maybe more so to survive at home the relentless work and I mean actual work trimming onions this time of the year but always at all times of the year some work and lots of it to be done. Christmas was really the ONLY time we ‘let down’ and even then I remember my brother and I coming in from the onions around 8pm for the Christmas Eve supper.

      But then we has a whole DaY one whole day ‘off’ Christmas Day sometimes later in the day as I snuck in and took more turkey for myself I used to feel a bit guilty. Like can this really be happening, can this really keep going to the end of the day. Such peace and plenty and I felt grateful for my Dad especially but my Mom also in a different way for providing it. A big part of also wad ‘peace’ peace on Earth we were taught in Church, we had peace from the neighbors and most of all peace at home. There is a stray line in one of the Pretender’s songs ‘a break in the battle’ maybe I will find now if I can

      • Patrick says:

        Yes this is the song “Back on the Chain Gang” by the Pretenders. I remember hearing it from a passing radio here co-inciding with a mostly imaginary love affair that never got going and like at some of those times how a song can seem so meaningful. But looking at the actual words now I can see why it meant a lot to me like our lives were like a “Chain Gang” work work work and a ‘break in the battle’ was the thing we needed and wanted most of all. It’s a very beautiful song (to me) the Pretenders are usually more ‘rock and roll’ which I like too but this one more.

  152. Phil says:

    It’s Christmas morning; the “kids” are still sleeping unlike years ago when they would wake
    up early to find their goodies. I’ve checked the news and I’m afraid Santa Claus has not come through for me. All I really wanted was a new president elect. I hope that everyone enjoys this day, even Donald Trump, It’s just that I don’t want him in the White House or in the WH north on 5th Ave.

  153. Larry says:

    It’s Christmas morning. I can hear others stirring from their slumber. I’m at my brother’s home, having arrived safely after a long 9 hour drive on Friday. I wrestle with feelings of not belonging, feelings of not being wanted, that I try to brush aside as I work and follow through in my intent to visit family and friends. Yesterday afternoon and evening I visited another brother and sister-in-law. Sometimes I feel foreign, very alone, on the verge of desperately so and I feel I should not be here. Yet repeatedly the feelings are dispelled as I make the effort to visit and connect and realize I am wanted and appreciated and we enjoy the warmth of each others’ company.

    A blizzard is forecast for this evening and overnight, bringing lots of snow, strong winds, and zero visibility, and cold. It will be a dangerous if not impossible time to travel. The Christmas dinner I planned to attend at another brother’s rural home with his family will no doubt be cancelled.

    What a bag of feelings it is this time of year, difficult to push through but I’m always rewarded when I do.

    I’m grateful for this blog and the friendship I feel on it, that helps me endure. Even you Patrick. I feel that somewhere deep inside of you there is a part that means well at least sometimes.

  154. Patrick says:

    Got this from my brother about the New Year. You can see that having ‘opinions’ run in the family lt was mostly what me and him had and not so much else. Anyway for once I will keep any opinions I might have to myself and simple give another’s.

    “I fear 2017 might have strong shades of 1937 – with the Syrian civil war taking the place of the Spanish one in the earlier era.

    Personally, I don’t think Trump will last out his term………..shot, certified mad and/or successfully impeached, in relation to ‘multiple conflicts of interests with his business’. This guy hasn’t an ounce of public service ethics or standards”

  155. Jo says:

    My Christmas Day is going well, considering I’m on my own.. I had a moment of sadness and tears first thing…it doesn’t feel too good to be alone sometimes.
    My daughter and family Skyped lunchtime, (during which I forgot I had oil heating up in the oven!) and I’m due to Skype two more lots of grandchildren soon..
    Lots of texts and photos last night and today from my son in France…who I pick up from Heathrow tomorrow..
    I finally bought a car, having been without one for two years, and feel relieved and ‘yay’!!!
    I put a link below, it’s just a mini modest collage. Not sure if it’s accessible..
    Seasons greetings everyone!

    • Phil says:

      I could see it, very nice, very Christmasy
      That’s great you got a car.
      We have been very indulgent all day lounging around and having a nice time
      with each other, with presents, and snacks etc. Pretty much what
      we do every year, and I’m really enjoying it. .

    • Larry says:

      Nice, Jo.

  156. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi All: Happy Christmas to all especially on this blog, but really to everyone, everywhere, especially the children. Alas, there is far too much suffering going on in the world and it doesn’t have to be. All it neds is love … pure and simple love, especially for the little children. It’s not all pleasure, but there should be a lot more of it than there there is. I’m lucky, I’ve got mine and soon he’ll be up and it’s all prepared and he can make coffee. Nothing special for us today but it’s clear blue skies and sunshine just the way I like it; even for Christmas day.

    I phoned my sisters yesterday and they are all with sons and daughters and family and it feels good that I still have them, but my little brother is gone. So!!! everyone have a great day as best you can, and a few tears here and there, are not real problem.


  157. Margaret says:

    at first this morning I still felt down enough to consider canceling the appointment with my friends for the afternoon, but I did not allow myself to do so as I knew it would be an irrational act of fear and a selfsabotage of possible good social interactions.
    I was picked up around noon and from then on it was just so very nice. kindness, laughter, openness and great food. it was four of u us there, the couple of my friends and a friend of theirs, and the conversation was very pleasant and lively.
    so it became a very warm xmas after all. they brought me back home with public transport and still we had a nice chat all the way up to my place.
    I will miss those friends when they go off soon to a little Spanish island for the next three months!
    but one of these years I will go visit them there.
    it was nice to read the comments upon my return home, thanks all for making this a very nice day,
    it is nice Patrick to hear some more about how it was for you as a kid .
    Jo, have a good time with your family, it sounds great you have your own wheels again.

  158. Margaret says:

    another great program with David Attenborough.
    it shows millipeded in the high mountains of California, filmed for the first time, who have luminescence. their glow cannot be a signal to each other as they are blind. but as they are full of cyanide, it seems to be a warning to night predators to not eat them.
    also luminescent earthworms exist , who light up when a predator catches it, as do some beetles.
    the worms might also use the light to find each other, still to be found out.
    then it was about the glowing of the sea, a fantastic, fabulous spectacle which i once had the great joy and privilege to see.
    that is really so beautiful, any movement makes the microscopic organisms in the water glow up, the waves crashing, or you walking through the water, or throwing pebbles in it, it all causes a fireworklike sparkling blue effect that lasts about a second.
    it is fairly bright, an unforgettable sight.
    it only happens when wind and temperature and curents gets billions of these tiny algae all concentrated enough for us to see their effects.
    wow, they managed to film dolphins while jumping in the ocean in this situation, causing a flashy splash and for one or two seconds a bright electric blue dolphin moving through the water. so impressive it brings tears to my eyes, which is something the beauty of the earth did do for me before when I could still see well enough .
    now I am able to see some of it with small googles to look at the tv screen.
    and of course having seen it in reality helps to fill in part of it with my memory.
    and more awe, this female diver did dives in the ocean on clouded nights, without lamps, and filmed and it is truely amazing how much she ran into, incredible light shows from various animals , some tiny, some bigger, some flashing in quickly changing colours and varying rhythms, communicating with each other in many ways.
    oo, and there are larvae in caves, lots and lots of them, who are on the ceiling, and their sticky saliva forms long dangling threads, and gues what, at night they glow and lure in innocent other insects, who fly to the planetariumlike ceiling, get stuck, and you know the rest, munch munch..
    it is true what Attenborough says, all these strange creatures we still discover, it is like having aliens all around us, all these different life forms.
    oh woow once more, dragonfish and other deep sea creatures, it is indescribable the rippling and radiating and streaming ways of light patters they display, it is soooo beautiful!!
    the cockeyed squid, with one noral eye and one eye looking upwards, the squid uses different shades and colours to either not stand out against the light above him, or in shallow water, or other flashy lights to seduce miss squid.
    bioluminescence, truely fantastic.
    some of it is too faint for our poor eyesight, but then a camera reveals its full bliss for more sensitive eyes.
    this world is so precious and beautiful, hope we get to our senses soon enough to preserve it.

  159. Merry Christmas and a happy New Year from Barry and I !! We hope it’s been a wonderful holiday for all of you ! 🌲 Gretch

  160. Larry says:

    It’s 1:45 am and can’t sleep. I need to cry but have no opportunity. I’ve been here only 2 days but feel torn open. Like at a retreat. When I’m with people my thoughts riddled with feelings of aloneness, doubt, a conviction that I don’t belong slammed up against breakthroughs of connection and warmth, frightened to realize how isolated I was much of my life and how I did it to myself and why.

    Sad to see the young ones maturing, my siblings connecting less and less with each other as they spend more and more time with their children growing and moving on into life. Sad to feel myself and my siblings aging. Sad to know that one of the spouses in a partnership will die before the other, and feel very sad for the very hard time coming for the surviving spouse. But I will squeeze as much joy as I can out of this season while it is there to be picked. I was touched by how well received were the gifts I risked giving…framed prints of photographic images I took, that I felt captured something special or each recipient.

    Still three days to go of visiting family and friends. I will be an emotional basket case if I can’t get get in a cry soon.

    For some reason, this music soothes me for now. He is singing, Oh Boy. I’m at the bottom of the sea.

    • Larry says:

      I realize now what this song holds for me. I was glad I was with family, glad I was with friends over Christmas, yet being with them I often felt tormented inside, feeling that I didn’t really belong, that I didn’t deserve their caring. Being with them I hurt more and more day by day, and when not with them I felt a deadening aloneness, like a foreigner in a strange country with no hope of ever really fitting in. Having no opportunity to be by myself to safely have a feeling, I went through the motions of social convention during Christmas week, an outward part of me glad for the warmth of controlled connection with people, but an inward part of me hurting, keeping safe and not allowing feeling deeper more spontaneous, more real connection, like in the song…oh boy..being at the bottom of the sea…alone and effectively cut off from everyone.

      I arrived back at home yesterday. Today I’m taking some alone time, to reconstitute my defenses while the impressions of the Christmas visit percolates.

      All this time, all these years, I’ve struggled to fit in. Over the holidays I had the epiphany that all of my family and my friends have had their struggles, their challenges to make their lives work, at times their feelings of aloneness and fear to overcome, that we are all in this together one way or another. The epiphany shifted my perspective from trying to fit in to instead wanting to find how to bring some joy and hope into our lives, to combat the more than enough out there beating us all down.

  161. Geez Patrick it’s almost as though Jews were following you everywhere you go! How dare those Jewish children wish you a Happy Chanukah! The fact that Chanukah began on Christmas Day this year and it was their holiday as well should not matter. Why don’t they know that Christmas is the only important holiday to celebrate? How dare they try to share theirs as well ! Don’t they know that Patrick celebrates Christmas and it is therefor all that matters ? Those children should not go ruining Patrick’s Christmas moment by trying to exchange a holiday greeting . On top of that they had the audacity to look different. Patrick you could not be any smaller or sadder. There is no fight Patrick, it’s too pathetic to fight about in my view. I will erase what you have written though I am tempted to leave it . Nothing could expose you more completely . Gretchen

    • Sylvia says:

      I agree with you Gretchen–sometimes I cannot believe what I read here about prejudice, Very thoughtful answer you gave.

      Larry, I look at my brothers and see how they have aged too and feel a little sadness with their gray hair and more lines in their responsible faces, and I suppose they look at their ‘little sister’ and think the same. I am glad they grew up to be independent fellows with good families.

      Margaret, thank you for the kind words. I’m glad my mom and I had a close bond growing up and I always admired her working so hard to keep our family running as best she could. When we ‘kids’ get together we always say what a good mom she was but then we share the crazy times too–quite a mixture.

      I took a picture of the little neighbor boy with his new tractor Santa brought pedaling around. So delightful to see that his parents love him so and are taking good care of him.
      You all enjoy your holidays and time off work.

    • Patrick says:

      So Gretchen – if I could not be “any smaller or sadder’ first off why not just show that then.Let’s say you are correct and of course then another question arises isn’t part of primal therapy letting oneself to be as ‘small and sad’ as is truthful and real. So again let’s just assume you are totally correct why does it have to suppressed then?. Show me for the ‘racist’ or ‘neo nazi’ you like to portray me as. So I suppose you are sparing my feelings then sparing me from being seen as ‘small and sad’ as I really am. Or are you sparing something or someone else?

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Patrick: You never did, nor do I feel you EVER will, know what Primal Therapy is all about.

        You … for your own good reason do not want to go there and never did; from my reading you on this blog.

        Meantime, there is a whole host of difference from voicing what you THINK is your feeling AND (deep down) what the feeling REALLY is. Acting-out your feeling is NOT (I repeat NOT) having it. (expressing it) If you were to know the difference you would possibly be able to resolve most of them.

        Seemingly you can’t OR won’t and therefore YOU are the one that is STUCK. Go figure.


  162. Huh?? A little convoluted if you ask me. Don’t fret about how I portray you, you have done a fine job of that all on your own. No one could be clearer about how they feel then you Patrick. You say ” isn’t part of Primal being as small and sad as is truthful and real ? “. Yes, it can be but I don’t think you are truthful or real in this case. That’s exactly what is so sad. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Blah Blah Blah “That’s exactly what is so sad. Gretchen” like YOU decide what is ‘sad’ or not or is done the right way or not. Isn’t it about time the primal establishment had a bit or modesty or realism. Sit there and pontificate meanwhile just look at Otto below people are suffering and have been for a long time but keep the front going, keep the myth intact, act like nothing is amiss. It has been forever from my experience and thank God now I know myself better that to get intimidated by you. Meanwhile why don’t you undelete what you posted so people could see exactly what was so wrong with it. Like I said anytime Jews are in control ‘freedom of speech’ is quickly threatened. You have proved this here in your own ‘small and sad’ way Gretchen. That’s MY definition of ‘sad and small’ I can’ think it is any worse than yours

  163. Otto Codingian says:

    Larry, how does your crying work out? You cry for a minute and you feel better? I had some screams and weeping in group uye about a life of loneliness and beatings from Life, yet i feel no relief and i am totally depressed now. this will go away once i go back to work tomorrow (i hope), but i’m down, i’m really down.

    • Larry says:

      No Otto, not a minute. Quite a bit longer than that usually, for me. And sometimes my mind doesn’t want to deal with the truth and dances around the feelings, and then I just have to suffer more days until I’m ready for the feelings and what they mean. Sometimes I have to make my life around me better before I am ready to face the feelings. Other times I’m broken and suffering and barely holding it together until the end of the work day and get home and collapse and let it flow out.

      How it happens is probably not the same for everyone, and maybe there are some feelings we never want to go to and only a life calamity takes us there.

  164. Otto Codingian says:

    My kid invited me down for xmas dinner with his wife and 2 kids. But he called me 4pm yesterday and said they had gotten roped into putting together an xmas eve dinner for his wife’s family and now the house was too messy on Christmas for them to put together the gourmet meal i had been thinking about. (They are both graduates of chef school.) So the kid says that they are planning to drive down to see my brother in his old folks home, way down the coast. So I told the kid that was fine but I was not going to drive down that far. I was tired, it gets dark too early, I don’t trust my car (smells like radiator fluid is leaking somewhere), and my brother’s room at the old folks home is small and there are no chairs. I suppose I was supposed to be the good guy and take them all out to dinner, but I already gave them the last of my money. And a restaurant with 2 small children and his wife who hates my family? Ahh…ate my can of chicken soup and corn muffin since the stores had all closed and there were too many happy families at the Chinese place. I hope I did not hurt my kid’s feelings, or my brothers. I don’t really know how I feel about it, I was not exactly looking forward to going to their house, since the wife hates us, and because I hate being around people. My brother was supposed to be driving up to their house too, and I was partially only going to the kid’s house because my brother told the kid that he would only come if I was there. Doh. Did a long facetime with Z and phd kid in champaign on xmas eve, opening presents. Not my idea, but I gave it all I could, which as usual is very little.

  165. Otto Codingian says:

    Patrick, the Myth is a good one. I think that my present situation, which is only going to change upon my death , is half the reason I cannot feel relief. The other part is possibly that BB and some of the other patients agree that I am the most tortured, most pained primal patient there ever was. Maybe not in those words but something like that. Not a real honor, but…. I passed my prime where things might have been better. Patrick, I hope you feel better.

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – I take your point(s) ………………about being the “that I am the most tortured, most pained primal patient there ever was. Maybe not in those words but something like that” that’s an interesting way to put it but well I dunno we can or I should say I can feel that way too sometimes. But I agree you do seem to have suffered and are suffering more than most. But as I am sure you know any and all suffering feels pretty unique as I suppose it is. About ‘myths’ I don’t know if they are ever so good or at least ‘myths’ that might be a bit ‘off’ or you might say ‘incorrect’. It struck me I went to Mass in Ireland every Sunday and I really liked it anyway towards the end of the Summer the priest said or asked “what is the greatest sin of all?” I though and I am sure others also a bit about it could not decide really……………..anyway the answer or his answer was “the worship of false gods” and I found that very interesting. Like the worst thing is mistaken thinking or the worship of false gods as it leads to so much other trouble. Worship of false gods he said is not confined to ‘ideas’ it could be for example the love of money or money being a false god. In your own case Otto I wonder if ‘trying to feel’ might be somewhat of a ‘false god’ just my impression. You are a good guy and I really like your honesty so hopefully you do not take offence really I am just trying to be helpful. Plus you love your rock and roll for some reason these days I like this song a lot. (Blue Sky) Do you or did you like the Allman Brothers

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Quote: “It struck me I went to Mass in Ireland every Sunday and I really liked it anyway towards the end of the Summer the priest said or asked “what is the greatest sin of all?” I though and I am sure others also a bit about it could not decide really……………..anyway the answer or his answer was “the worship of false gods””.

        Now wait a minute: Jesus if my religious upbringing was correct WAS A JEW. The story of Jesus of Nazareth is a bit of a strange story. Lets see if I can put it in a bit a different context, if somewhat crude.

        Mary his mother was fucked by a ghost and that seeming appeased the then step dad Joseph.

        From my religious instruction classes at the local grammar school, the first gospel, telling the story of Jesus was written 40 years after the guy died. Until that time it had all been word of mouth. Mathew and Luke were written 20 years later and took most of Mark’s writings and just embellished it. John apparently came 60 years after Mathew and Luke Christianity and especially Roman Catholicism is an out-growth of that, set in motion apparently by Abraham. Quite some time before the year zero.

        I gather from some books and TV and other sources. The twelve disciples were also Jewish. But it was Saul of Taurus … having a primal on the road to Damascus, that got the whole myth going in Rome. It needed Constantine to make if more widely known and accepted.

        So if Judaism is a cult; then only Godo knows what Roman Catholicism is! Even Mohamed based most of is notion on Abraham and not Christianity.


  166. Actually I do indeed decide what I think is sad and small and you are sad and small to me. That’s my opinion. I speak for no one else nor did I say I was speaking for anyone else. In any case your main concern seems to be that everyone read your views on Jewish children wishing you a happy Chanukah. Maybe you don’t understand how the blog works. First of all anyone who gets on the blog to read its posts during that period of time would have seen what you wrote. Anyone who receives the posts by email would have received what you sent and can read it to their hearts content. We are simply deleting your post so it will not remain forever on this blog. But have no fear most if not all have read your views any number of times and I’m guessing most read what you posted this morning. I can assure you that most in the Primal community would know who wrote that post and what the content might be. Is there someone you are concerned did not read it? Who would that be? You might consider emailing this latest post if that is what is worrying you . As an aside consider doing your homework on freedom of speech ( you might find it somewhere near freedom of religion) , in fact, as I have suggested before, you might try looking up Irelands views on freedom of speech. You may learn something. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Well thanks Gretchen for letting me know how this ‘deleting’ thing works. I did not actually realize. I do not get the blog posts via email so I really thought it you delete it is gone period the end. So that’s good to know and thanks for making that clear. I guess I might have realized this before but I did not so it’s always good to know how things work.

      I was talking to a friend of mine and he said “how about if say on some big Jewish Holiday say Passover and a bunch of Irish Catholics were to run a van up and down in Tel Aviv flashing lights and making sounds making it clear they were NOT celebrating Passover but something else all together how would that go down? Not very well is my guess.

      One thing I did realize today thinking about all this……………growing up in Ireland out in the country it was totally racially homogeneous and also religiously homogeneous. So when Christmas came around well there was no other show in town. it was a feeling of absolute unanimity and to be fair maybe i was carrying this with me yesterday. Like how could ANYONE be celebrating ANYTHING other than Christmas right now? So I will concede that was/is a bit of a blind spot with me

    • Leslie says:

      Thank you Gretchen! You speak for yourself – but also for me – and for so many here who find it mortifying that a group of children joyous in their holiday celebration and therefore kindly wishing you too a Happy Chanukah is threatening to you Patrick!

      You have missed out on so much – and have lost any recourse with your atrophied brain and rock for a heart.

      • Patrick says:

        Trust you Leslie to always ‘chime in’ with your predictable ‘take’ Whatever you go your way I go mine………………..

  167. Well I can assure you if I was in Tel Aviv when the Catholics were celebrating their holiday ( hypothetically) during Passover should they be derided or demeaned I would speak out against that as well. But yes what you say is true. We are a product of our histories. Gretchen

  168. Patrick says:

    Thinking a bit more on what Leslie said………… it really so ‘simple’ and now it’s ‘spun’ as JUST a bunch of children out joyously celebrating their holiday and wishing so re incarnation of Hitler who can’t feel!! a Happy Holiday. That simple ok you could put that interpretation on it. You could put many others also……………….like these ‘kids’ are really more like imprisoned in a cult and they are being moved around in vans and put in an area where their organizers know a lot of people will be feeling Chrismassy…………they LOOK like cult members dressed up like old men they are members of a cult that pushes among other things circumcision which most primallers judging by last week find pretty horrifying you because of the particular cult they belong to and all the power it represents people are AFRAID of challenging in any way. I feel bad for those ‘kids’ they are so clearly trapped in a cult that is not good for them or for the rest of the world as it plays out. They were loud and disrespectful it looked like an organized show put on to make people look and think and further weaken any kind of common bonds that people might feel at Christmas. And part of that for me I will admit is nostalgia for a simpler time when all the world could seem unified instead of the Tower of Babel we have now…………..

  169. Margaret says:

    Jack, I think I have read somewhere that already 3000 years before Christ there was the Mithras cult, if I am remembering well, with almost the same story as the xmas one.
    also a little baby born in a cave or something similar, announced with a star or comet in the sky, and wise peeople travelling to him to pay him their honors.
    what can I say?
    thousands of years of plagiarism, and one wonders if there was true convictions involved or if a lot of the origins are based on the desire for power and influence. and then things took their own courses with holy wars from all sides, chopping heads off for not believing in ‘the right’ god..
    one good side of religions can be to provide rules for behaving properly but well, a loving and good education could do the same without all the fairy tales.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I personally would rather rely on my own instincts and feelings. I personally have no desire to folloow anyone’s rules BUT my own. However, that rquires of me to take the consiquenses of me having my own rules. SO!!!!!!! I adjust MY rules to what serves me best.

      Otherwise I see noting good about religion … imbued into children with the fear of the wrath of God … then when I/we have bought into that sufficiently enough, to be then told this ‘pie in the sky’ as so, so benevolent. I don’t buy it.


  170. Margaret says:

    argh! my fellow student for Literature study is momentarily dropping out, 3 months before my deadline for that difficult assignment.
    she is overwhelmed with the taking care of her three growing up children, the new demands of her new job, and the classes she needs to take in the evenings for that job etc.
    so we put everything on hold, will probably let both our deadlines go by so we will have to pay and sign up for that course again if ever we can still do it together.
    but at least I have some clarity now, and the option still exists we will do it some day.
    luckily I had already ordered a new course during her silence, health psychology, so I still have something on my hands..
    it is a drag, but not the end of the world.
    still if she drops out completely I do have a problem with that f.. course, so full of rules and regulations and lay-out and contents demands and search reports and plans etc. etc. etc….
    oh well, other courses in the meantime, plenty of them..
    tomorrow visit to mom with sister, I actually look forward to it…

    no plans for newyear’s eve, here at home with cats and distant cracking of fireworks, don’t mind as that festivity always fel t phony and forced..
    so much silence on the blog, mmm, hope you are mostly busy wit family and friends and digesting good food?
    I am kind of sticking out cold dark days until spring sun reappears and makes life more pleasant again….
    it is good for me not to have those painkillers around, but sometimes it gets hard not having one bit of a soothing relaxing moment available in the evening.
    still I am doing ok, often not bouncing with happiness but doing what I need to do, trying to make the best of things…

    and here and there some nice moments, in between the tedious treadmill chores and occasional feelings of emptiness and hopelessness.
    sometimes I think about how nice some kind of reincarnation would be, if you could take what you learned in one life with you and do better the next, or if having misbehaved having to learn the hard way in the next life etc.
    a nice idea but just an idea I am afraid.
    if we want meaning we have to add it ourselves, find some worthwhile whatever , even just being a good person,as simple as that is already some kind of ‘meaning’ for the one life we are stuck in at this very point.
    and go on with the adventure of it in this amazing world full of hidden beauty and not so hidden suffering..
    miss my good eyesight as that gave a lot of meaning before, I simply enjoyed the thrill of taking it all in… sigh…

    but hey, things could be a lot worse, so I will count my blessings…
    any good intentions anyone for the following year? ah, first big firework bang not so far away..
    luckily I do not have a dog anymore that would freak out and try to hide under whatever furniture available.
    my cats are kind of philosophical about it..

    • Phil says:

      That’s too bad about your fellow student dropping the literature class.
      I enjoyed a very nice Christmas, but ate too much.
      A familiar problem came up since
      then. I had to go back to work Tuesday while my wife is on vacation. My expectations are that we should connect better because of that but it doesn’t work out that way.
      She has adopted a very late schedule and frets over projects or something needing to get done, none of which seem important to me. She has her own problems too; maybe a let down from being very busy at work and bringing work home, and now nothing.
      This all might of had to do with feeling lousy the past few days. Triggering for me to feel like I’m ignored. The only attention I got from my mother, that I can remember, is punishment, like spanking. Being ignored also feels like punishment. Maybe just my way of making it like I count for something, that I exist..
      I recall other times wanting something from my mother but she was sleeping. More like she was half dead already, no life there, nothing available from her. But I did connect with needing and wanting something.

  171. Margaret says:

    phil, those sound like very unpleasant feelings.
    I have some experience with needing and it is a hard place to be in. yours sounds even more serious as well, mom’s are so basic, and I think I got at least some things from my dad but it sounds like you got little to nothing, or bad stuff, from your mom.

    hope you can find ways to solve the isssues you have in the present.
    take good care, M

    • Phil says:

      More on this later today; it includes desperate feelings that I’m never going to get what I want or need in my life. I’m stuck, blocked. That’s maybe the 1st line part, I don’t think I got much, if any, help from my mother from the beginning. It was hopeless with her.
      I was also recalling how so much of my life has been effected by this.
      It’s actually a minor issue to be solved in the present that was triggering me.
      It’s just a lot of stuff that has to come out from the past when I was feeling more acutely blocked and stuck.
      At most I could make a few small comments to my wife, but I didn’t do that as it didn’t come up. But otherwise I have to approach her positively and that tends to fix things;
      complaints and blaming usually don’t work. I still need other things going on in my life to
      help keep me going,
      One more day to work tomorrow and then another long weekend. We’re going out New Years Eve and that should help.

      • Phil says:

        The blog has been so quiet. Where did everyone go? Chris, I like what you wrote and
        agree with all of that.
        I’ve still been dealing with feelings which were triggered this week. Still bothering me even though I did a lot of crying. It has to do with being cut off and/or ignored. When it seems my wife is doing that, it can trigger huge stuff and that’s what happened. Today I got to some anger with it, and I think that’s what has to happen to get more relief besides feeling like she has changed her behavior. The problem is, there’s no specific incident I can point out, to complain about.
        With my mother it was ongoing and continuous, as far as I can remember. I just didn’t count for her. I can’t remember that there was some good or better time, and then later being ignored and treated poorly. She was sick, very sick, physically and emotionally.
        It’s only now that see more clearly about the emotional part. That is no way to treat anyone, especially your own child. Just ignoring me, not even noticing or seeing me.
        I don’t count. So I stayed away from her, and gave her very similar treatment. I can remember a moment when I was thinking to do that.
        The anger is so huge, it’s very hard to get it all out.
        Impossible really, I’ve been physically blocked,and that comes undone only a little at a time. I automatically repress it and instead walk around with all this anger and resentment that can’t be released. as it’s inappropriate, it’s childhood stuff.
        I just thought to write this down, as it feels useful to do that.


        • Sylvia says:

          Chris, I also agree with your comments about circumcision. How can we continue to hurt our little babies….
          Phil, You sound like you are getting some of your anger out. Sometimes in the past feeling by myself it has helped to say: “I hate you, I hate you, I hate you.” It kind of released the emotion. That’s just me. I had to get rid of a lot of fear first though to be strong enough to say that. It seems odd doesn’t it that we can be fearful of letting our feelings out even if we are alone.

          So, Happy New Year you guys and gals….May the force be with you.

        • Larry says:

          You sound very angry Phil, and have every right to be. Amazing and my at off to you that you don’t take it out on bystanders.

  172. Chris P says:

    It has taken me a while to respond to Daniel’s post regarding circumcision (male genital mutilation) last week. I have been so overwhelmed with feelings that I could not find the energy to reply. And frankly, I did not expect there to be any challenge to the terror of male genital mutilation here on the Primal Blog, so that has been shocking to me.

    “I am circumcised as is my son. Nearly all Jewish and Muslim males are. Although it may sound horrific it isn’t so. I have nothing to compare it with, but I have been enjoying sex my entire adult life, and when I haven’t it was for emotional rather than physical reasons.”

    Yes, “Nearly all Jewish and Muslim males” are genitally mutilated, that is true. And at one time nearly all American males were as well (thankfully that is changing). But I do not see the relevance; this is not justification for continuing. It is a brutal and irrational tradition that needs to be eradicated. And you are right, you have nothing to compare it to. If your eyes were removed at birth, you would not necessarily lament that loss either.

    You say circumcision sounds horrific; it does and that is because it is horrific. Taking a blade to a newborn’s genitals for no good reason is insane. Even if your son only cried a bit, he is still without a part of his body—a part that serves 15 important functions. The most important is that the foreskin serves to protect the glans of the penis. The foreskin is similar in function in that regard to the eyelid, to protect the very important organ underneath. You may be enjoying sex, but you are enjoying it at a greatly diminished level. Without the protection of the foreskin, the glans loses sensation and gets calloused over time and with constant exposure. The glans is intended by nature to be an internal organ, only to be exposed when the male is sexually aroused; circumcision changes that. Not to mention that the foreskin itself has 15,000-20,000 fine touch nerve receptors that go to increasing pleasure in sex. These “fine-touch” nerves are similar to the nerves that are the ends of your fingertips or on your lips. And you know how much amazing pleasure those bring! No one cut those away from you hopefully! If half of your taste buds were removed, you’d probably still enjoy eating right?

    What starts off as a relatively small piece of tissue from a newborn boy, by adulthood will be about the size of a post card. The foreskin also serves to provide a gliding function during sex that is eliminated with cutting. Please google the structure and function of the foreskin.

    “My son cried a bit at the bris and fully healed within a week or so which went by without any trouble or visible pain.”

    Why would you want your son to cry at all if it could be prevented, especially for no reason? And I am sure you are minimizing his trouble and pain. How could a knife to one’s genitals not be excruciatingly painful? Especially given that the foreskin is not only cut away, but it is forcibly peeled away from the shaft of the penis; it is fused to the shaft in the same way that the fingernail is fused to the finger. How painful and humiliating! Would you now let a group of men surround and restrain you and have a go at your genitals? Of course you would not! Get real man. Why would you let this happen to your baby boy? And then come here on a primal blog and defend it!!!
    “Male circumcision cannot be compared to female circumcision still common among some Muslim societies, because unlike the removal of the clitoris the foreskin is easily detached and removed, the wound heals quickly (many times it doesn’t even bleed spontaneously), and the intent is never to control or remove sexuality.”

    Your are correct there is a dis-analogy between male genital mutilation and female clitoridectomy(removal of the clitoris), because they are not the same things. You are committing a straw person fallacy here. There are many types of female genital mutilation and you have conveniently selected the most gruesome type to compare to male genital mutilation. Women also have a foreskin (clitoral hood) and its removal is much more common than the highly publicized clitoridectomy. The removal of the male foreskin is very similar to the practice of female foreskin removal. In fact, removal of the female foreskin was actually legal here in the United States up until 1996. A clitoridectomy is not the same and is more akin to removal of the entire glans or the penis itself.

    Whether the intent is to control or remove is sexuality is kind of irrelevant because that in fact is what happens: it does control and remove sexuality.

    “I don’t think circumcised men have more emotional problems when compared to their originally-equipped comrades, and according to the World Health Organization they have fewer physical problems (for example, there is wide ranging programs of circumcision in Africa as part of the battle against AIDS).”

    Once a man realizes his parents have betrayed him and have cut away a very valuable organ, I am not sure how that in itself would not be the source of grave emotional problems. When you realize how important the foreskin is and the fact that you have been robbed of something very valuable, how could that not constitute parental betrayal, the source of most if not all emotional problems. And for nothing: some archaic and barbaric religious tradition? As far as it combatting AIDS, this is some twisted thinking. Condoms will work just fine. Cutters also argue how it is cleaner. Ever heard of soap and water? By the way, in Europe where circumcision is rare, the HIV/AIDS rates are comparable to rates here in the US, where male circumcision is common. So cut the shit about the alleged medical benefits of circumcision. That is really a last ditch effort and it is false.

    “Finally, it comes down to parenting. If parents are loving and caring, are attentive, are gentle with the baby, the whole thing is very much like any other incident of minor injury so common in childhood and adult life. If, on the other hand, parents are not loving or responsible enough this sure can become traumatic. If that is the way they are then unfortunately the trauma will come sooner or later, one way or another.”

    I agree it does come down to parenting. But cutting parts off an important part of a child’s genitals is not loving and hardly gentle. The very act itself is unforgivable even if the parents are “loving”. Why parents would want to take steel cutting instruments to a child’s most vulnerable and precious organ is astounding. There is no love in this act. Removal of the foreskin is not an incident or minor injury as you say. It is an absolute terror and assault on the child’s bodily autonomy and should be illegal so that the debate we are having is irrelevant.

    I am fairly confident that within 20 years it will become illegal here in the US. And I would really appreciate it if the Primal Institute would come out with a firm statement against it. It is a hideous and pernicious form of child abuse even if veiled behind religious tradition or medicine.

    • Larry says:

      I’m impressed by the intelligence, sensitivity, forcefulness and balance of your argument Chris. The thought of helpless babies being circumcised makes me squeamish and angry. When I was a know nothing kid and first learned about circumcision at first i didn’t quite understand what it was and actually sometimes felt like a primitive because I hadn’t been circumcised. Years later I was relieved to read that there was no evidence of any medical benefit to having the procedure done. It has since been my impression and therefore relief that the tide had turned against circumcision and its practice was on the way out if not already ended.

      • Chris P says:

        thank you Larry. I appreciate your kind words. You were indeed lucky to have been spared this brutal form of abuse. It is one that I reminded of on a daily basis.

  173. Otto Codingian says:

    for me i have nothing much to say, that’s why. nothing on tv except anthony hopkins and juliane moore. plenty of violence in mankind, pretty standard stuff, circumcision is probably not the cause of man’s violence, just another aspect of it. a lot of crazy kid-killings by parents this year, cop-killings, black killings. i feel old, 65, they keep announcing people of my age who are dying left and right. car accidents left and right, all of this scares the shit out of me. happy new year. thank you jesus, i really mean it.

  174. Otto Codingian says:

    russians and their bears. no real violence in this clip, good. the russians seem to be a fun-loving people. i guess we better get used to them.

  175. Otto Codingian says:

    Here’s another little treat. a tiny bit of violence, not really much, makes me sad, the music.a guy playing the trumpet scene is just beautiful. i hope we stop killing off the animals. calming music. poetic scenes and philosophical musings can be gleaned.
    MAN AND BEAST – Part 41 on youtube.

  176. Larry says:

    I feel sad Margaret how life has been arbitrarily unfair to you, and how realistically you have little chance (I wouldn’t say none though) of recovering from some of the wounds inflicted on you.

    This morning I listened to that music video again, The Ocean, by Max Marnie, and this time opened to crying…about the hurt and damage done to innocent children- my siblings, my nieces and nephews, my friends, my parents and finally myself; our lives steered toward a more difficult course that need not be and near impossible to alter except for what can be managed through primal therapy.

    I wish you all a Happy New Year, but I also wish you the strength to bear up under the pounding and disappointment that’s sure to befall us in one way or another in the year ahead.

    • Phil says:

      This is a very realistic New Year’s wish for us. Maybe for each of us, personally, good things will be happening, or we can work to make that happen.
      Happy New Year to you.

  177. Jack Waddington says:

    I do find myself thinking a great deal about how the legacy of Primal Therapy/Theory might evolve.

    What got me a thinking about all this, was reflecting on first my parents, and then their parents, and how ‘their cookie crumbles’. I can’t go much further back than that Except to say that both grand fathers were dead before I was born, but both my grandmothers did talk from time to time about their own childhoods.

    It seems there in no end to the damage and the pending damage to the children of tomorrow, or the pending doom of humanity. I find that so sad and do cry the odd tear about it from time to time. Is there no way for humanity, and especially to the parents of the future the learn and take in, the message of Primal Theory … that all that is needed is to love and adore our own babies; be we fathers or mothers.

    I have proposed my own suggestions and will not repeat it here, BUT are there others of you that might have had similar feeling about it, other than me; OR am I such freak to be thinking like this. I find that hard to believe.

    I personally do not think that trying to tweak the current system will surfice, BUT it is going to have to be a very, very radical change. However that’s just me. I would love to know and hear anyone else’ view on this matter. Do we really have to go on and on with the current madness … made more scary by Donald Trump as the president of the United States?????

    Just MY thoughts. Jack

    • Phil says:

      I’m afraid that there is little hope for the next 4 years in this country. It’s discouraging to me that we have Trump and, but, we will have to resist him. The very day after the inauguration there will be a women”s march on Washington protest against Trump. There will be events all over the country.

      More sad and discouraging to me is the fact that such a the large number of voters
      thought Trump was a good choice. It appears to me that many people voted against their own interests, or at least what I thought their interests are, or should be.
      Next time, hopefully, the democrats can choose a more uplifting and exciting candidate.

      I don’t think radical change is necessarily a good thing; especially when so many people have differing viewpoints. Maybe Trump will be such a disaster that the experience will offer change for the future. Radical change usually means extreme violence and disruption, which I can’t see as a good thing. Over a long period of time there has been change; most of it a long time coming. I’m talking about civil rights, women’s rights, the GBLT movement, awareness and action on the environment, etc. Gradual change and improvement is probably all we can hope for

      It seems likely to me that there will be no strong general embrace of primal theory or therapy coming in the near future. If we can’t heal as individuals, or have preventative measures put in place, craziness in societies as a whole will continue. Which means we end up with poor leaders and little or no progress, or even steps in the wrong direction.

      In a pile of books my son intends to read is “The New Primal Scream”. He is interested in underground and cutting edge things. He took a class in psychology and I saw him studying about Freud and psychoanalysis, and I said something to him like “you should take a look at this book. It won’t come up in your class, but it is the real thing, but underground”. That makes it of possible interest for him and he will eventually read it and he already knows I’ve been involved with it.
      I worry about what the future will bring for my children and all the other young people.
      I’m not optimistic.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: on the political front; this is the way I see it, having been closely following it form the very beginning. The Republicans, as soon as the got the the inkling that Hillary Clinton was about to enter the race for the White House, panicked believing that they did not have a candidate to beat her. They then jumped on anything they could to belittle her and/or make it appear as she was untrustworthy, so they devised in the House of Representatives an inquiry into the Server she used whilst Secretary of State. She was not the first Secretary to have her own server … Colin Powell had one also. However they set out to make the best of it even though the house committee, after over eight hours of questioning her, revealed nothing. So they demanded an FBI probe. That too revealed nothing that was illegal … though in their own words, thought careless.

        What in-fact now took place was a back lash on the Republicans and Donald Trump was the lucky (and I say lucky because I did not see that he was bright enough to make it all the way to the nomination). What in fact did take place was, mainly white males being distraught over the grid lock in Washington decided to vote against Hillary. (I suspect there was some sexism in there from those while working class males).

        It was because of this and the outdated feature of the Constitution … the Electoral Collage, (introduced IMO to give each of the first 13 states, some say in the Presidency, since in effect a Federation limited their own power).

        What now is the case is that The United State is NOT a democracy … if the one receiving the least of the popular vote can make it to The Presidency. This I feel could actually be the undoing of the US as a super power. Particularly as now there will be an incompetent President (not the first) but one that has no experience in diplomacy. Sadly, I feel the Republicans will attempt to shore him up, as his failure, is their failure … and they know it.

        I’ll answer the other questions you brought up in your comment, in the next comment by me.


        • Phil says:

          I’m in agreement with what you’ve said here.

          Happy New Year to everyone!

          Some like Margaret and David have already started on it.
          I have a few hours to go. My wife and I are going out for dinner and music,
          leaving my older son playing video games in front of a fire in the fireplace with his friends.


        • Patrick says:

          Jack while I think it better for me to keep away from any so called ‘big picture’ stuff here as it usually ‘goes nowhere’ it seems to me you butcher pretty badly the story of HRC’s emails. Colin Powell had an email account for ‘private’ stuff which is normal enough there is no reason to mix in all kinds of personal stuff on ‘official’ emails and business. But the way I understand it he had a regular ‘commercial’ account like gmail or something Hillary on the other had it seems did ALL of her emails both personal and business on a PRIVATE server. You being a computer guy would know that is very different the emails were ‘housed’ literally on her home computer/server. Then to make things worse when she started to have to answer questions about Libya etc she deleted all of them. As far as the House committee questioning her ‘revealing nothing’ that’s because she refused to answer anything much down to pretending when they were asking her did she ‘wipe’ (erase) her computer she pretended to think she meant ‘wipe’ like with a cloth

          It is accepted she ‘wiped’ as in erased them physically actually chemically from her hard drive. She in effect ‘privatized’ the whole State Dept she then had Bill running around making private deals for the so called Clinton Foundation and personally making very big money from speeches. There is so much stuff like this in that book “Clinton Cash” but one example the State Dept was putting sanctions on Iran which meant lost business for Erikson the tele comm company. Well Bill get’s involved get’s $750,000 for ONE speech and lo and behold the State Dept (run by Hillary) makes an ‘exception’ for tele comm to Iran. There are so many other examples…………total corruption literally a ‘privatized’ (to the Clinton’s) State Dept. It almost makes the Bush situation vis a vis New Orleans look not so bad. Haiti earthquake was a huge opportunity for more “Clinton Cash” ……………..that not the way government is meant to work. People got hung up on the emails but not so much the ‘content’ of them. Anyway Hillary was a terrible candidate and totally corrupt so no great loss there. It shows the Democratic Party to be very weak and corrupt they way they tried to ‘anoint’ her so really they should blame themselves and stop looking for Russians under every bed (yet again) for ‘reasons’ they lost the election.

          I am no great fan of Trump and it seems even more than I or most people realized we have a true “President for Israel’. Even now the Obama govt is not nearly pro Israeli ENOUGH for him now we have a President who basically says it is over for the Palestinians as a people with any future. Jerusalem the West Bank etc will ALL be Jewish soon. What are they meant to do all emigrate I suppose so we have true ‘ethnic cleansing’ going on there now and will have and not the bogus charges of ‘ethnic cleansing’ as in Yugoslavia for example. When a country is effectively taken over by a ‘foreign’ power and actually a ‘hostile’ one appearances notwithstanding nothing much good can happen and I believe that is what we are seeing here. Trump is truly a “President for Israel” which might not be a problem if this WAS Israel but last time I checked it was not…………….

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Patrick: If you really think that any government in the whole world is nice and clean and thinking only of humanity, and in particular it’s own people you’re on the wrong planet. AND don’t give this:- “some are better than others”. I don’t buy any of it.

            I will repeat yet again:- “Whomever you vote for the government will get in” Think a little deeper … if you can. No government official is in it for other than their own gain. There is a way out of the whole quagmire, and you know my answer, so no need to repeat it. AND … I wasn’t the first to think of it. The idea has been around now for over a century. Try reading some of that stuff, if you truly are interested in human affairs and governance … or the lack of it.

            Religion is also a part of the whole structure. It all stated some tens of millennium ago, when mankind … for whatever reason … crosses the Neurotic Rubicon. There-on-in was the start of it all. Sadly, it’s only in the last 5 decades we made the discovery. The one you bought into then … when push came to shove … you ran for you life … away for having to feel your own pain. True! none of us like pain but we each, least-ways on this blog, came to know that the only way beyond it … is through it. You seemingly chose not to go there, but somehow want to keep one foot still inside, should there be and easy way out … there isn’t … but you mostly refuse to even give it any consideration. Like many (especially politicians), you’ve got it all figured out … cept everyone on this blog knows you haven’t. Go figure!!!!!!


            • Patrick says:

              Jack – it seems you are the one who thinks ‘he has it all figured out’ what with numerous “Rubicon Crossings” not to mention “Conceptual Leaps” and of course endless nattering about “RE-LIVINGS” and all kinds of noise about ‘abolishing’ things money, speech, thinking even.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: I quote you:- “Radical change usually means extreme violence”
        Does it????
        I am not certain that is really true and I feel that way because of the British civil war and the coming of Oliver Cromwell. Other than the beheading of Charles the 1st, I don’t think it was any more violent that what is currently taking place here in the US with Police shooting recklessly … and wars. What I really mean by radical is: a far cry from that we deem NORMAL.

        Another quote:- “Gradual change and improvement is probably all we can hope for”
        how gradual is gradual?
        I didn’t see the advent and discovery of ‘Primal Pain’ as gradual. I contend that it was a major breakthrough/thinking by most of us that came here, did this therapy and now subscribe to this very blog.

        I think it is interesting that your son took to reading some psychology and it would be interesting to know what he thought of “The New Primal Scream”.

        Knowing that most here understand the elements of Primal; if it remains just among US, having done the therapy and contributing to this blog, then I agree there is little hope, whomever is voted into government. Government in-and-of-themselves are self-promoting. Hense, as I see it, we are sort of collectively stuck … feeling that the only acceptable chance is within the the very framework that now exist. It is this very notion OF MINE that I feel; no REAL change will ever happen.

        I personally see things diffeerently. The discovery of “Primal Pain” revealed something that has eluded us humans for many eons. Is there a simple and relativly easy way to reverse this madness? IMO, yes there is.


        • Phil says:

          When you talk about radical change I assume one thing you have in mind is the idea of the elimination of money and other forms of exchange. I wouldn’t want to get into the merits of that notion again, but I think that such a policy would be radical and the cause of violence.Very few people would give up their money peaceably. No more than people are willing to give up their guns.
          When I say gradual change I mean things that can be achieved over decades and longer, generations.
          Some ways that rapid change can be put into place is by dictators, civil wars, and revolutions, or other disruptive events.
          In American history the great depression led to the election of FDR and many progressive social policies emanated from that through the 1960’s. Since that time there has been a backlash. The US Civil War ended slavery at the price of 600,000 dead, but slavery continued in a different form for another century.
          Many historical revolutions achieved little. The French revolution was a terrible bloody event which ultimately overthrew the monarchy, but involved dictatorship and wars throughout Europe. I wonder, was that all necessary and beneficial.
          The American Revolution didn’t achieve much. What was achieved for common people? Maybe just a change in the sources of taxation and leadership.
          Primal therapy and theory I agree is a major breakthrough in thinking and practice but hasn’t led to any revolution.
          I guess I’m not exactly sure what radical change you might have in mind that could practically happen, with little violence and suffering.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: If, as you state:- “”I wouldn’t want to get into the merits of that notion again, but I think that such a policy would be radical and the cause of violence.
            So why the question and the response to me??????????????

            I know everyone has their theory about what would take place … culminating in violence. I EMPHATICALLY DO NOT AGREE. BUT since you have no desire to get into again … then I won’t go there … you’re inciting a discussion that you say you do not want!!!!!!!!!.

            Fine: I won’t go there. You have the last word on it. OK.


            • Phil says:

              ? I was just responding to your last comment to me.
              But you didn’t answer my question on what radical change you were thinking on.
              If it wasn’t the one on money, then what was it?
              Maybe you were just expressing some feelings on the desirability of radical change.
              I was just pointing out, that in my opinion, that kind of change is often violent and/or unproductive. In a democracy or even a quasi democracy like the US it usually seems to take a long time to achieve anything. It seems to take cultural shifts within the population and it often isn’t clear how or why that happens.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Phil: Sorry; I thought it was obvious what I meant by “RADICAL” change. Yes! it is the abolition of that that we created. If we can create it, then surely we can abolish it. Then if you wish to extrapolate that back to barter or any other form of exchange … that too in my very considered opinion, is the road that led to devising coinage, then money in the first place.

                However, as I have stated it requires of anyone that wishes to contemplate the matter to do what is coined “A CONCEPTUAL LEAP”. Just dismissing it from what is currently in place doesn’t do it. One has to dismiss many conceptual norms. That only recently became norm/s/normal.

                Lastly:- you state, as if you really know, that it would be violent. How do you know and from what precept do you configure that???????? I can’t and no-one else can, i contend. What most of us resist is:- “NOT KNOWING” We hate to think we don’t know. I contend that is a grave factor of ‘NEUROSIS’. Just citing revolutions is NOT IMO the way forward … hence RADICAL.

                Hope that clarifies my thinking on the matter.


                • Phil says:

                  A country like China could take that conceptual leap but it turns out they like money a whole lot. The cultural revolution there created extreme disruptions and earlier than that “the great leap forward” policies contributed to a famine causing the death of around 20 million people. A similar famine happened in the Soviet Union during the Stalin regime with the same results. That’s what can sometimes happen when a “great” leader takes a conceptual leap and forces a radical change from the top. Good ideas probably have to emerge and gain strength from the grassroots level. If your idea is good maybe that will happen. However, I found a figure of there being about 10 million millionaires living in the US. I doubt any of them would willingly give up their money and they hold a disproportionate amount of power; virtually all of it, probably How do you get them to give up their money, especially when they hold power? The best thing, I think, is let them keep a lot of it, but take some away by raising their taxes bigly (big league).

                  • Jack Waddington says:

                    Phil: You are doing it again. You have a ready answer AND I don’r buy it. However it seems you have a need to keep this discourse going, when I thought you stated you did not want to do that. Fine: I love blogging and love responding and so it’s no big deal for me.

                    First off:- Karl Marx was a great genius IMO not for what he devised as the solution, BUT for his delineation of what the capitalist system consisted of. Where I feel Marx went off track was in suggesting the way forward to creating a whole other state of being for humanity. His suggestion was:- “A dictatorship of the proletariat” meaning, if I read him right, that the transition that he deemed to be required was a benevolent leader that then would allow for the “withering away of the state” That never happened in ALL the communist revolutions. Once a dictator of any stripe gets into the position of power (Neurotically) he seeks to maintain it. Marx was smart enough to suggest that the French revolution merely removed one government for another. Hence no real RADICAL change … just a ‘reshuffling of the deckchairs on the Titanic’ … so to speak.

                    So!!!!!! in my long considered opinion, until the advent of the Primal notion there was NO CHANGE … just a reshuffle of what already existed. If you would care to do some reading on the matter I suggest Bakunin and Kropotkin … both Russians that worked in Italy.

                    It’s hard to state how things would be without money, law or government, since no-one of us in recent history have ANYTHING to guide that notions. To use something I discussed a while back after a suggestion by Gretchen at a retreat:- “Think outside the box” I spent a great deal of time attempting to do just that, only to discover that the moment I got out of one box I found myself in yet another … then getting outside that one again. only to find I was yet in another … and so the process goes on and on and on.

                    It’s more than a discussion … it has to be a whole re-thinking from that, that we are used to.

                    However, should you wish to continue with this discourse, that’s fine by me.


                    • Phil says:

                      You say Karl Marx was a genius, but mistaken as to how his ideas could be put in place. But you don’t mention what the alternative path would be. So what is your thinking on that? Assuming that the idea of abolishing money is good, how does it come about? I’m afraid that, as seems to happen other times, you simply will see this as an argument against your idea. But it is an important related question, isn’t it?
                      It’s like saying; “everyone should have a chicken in the pot on Sunday”. OK, well, that ignores what we are eating all other days. But let’s say it’s a good idea, then how do we bring it about, step by step?


                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Phil: Be careful how you re-phase what I wrote.
                      I’ll repeat it by re-stating it “Karl Marx was a genius in DELINIATING capitalism”
                      In other words how he saw the TRAP the curent economies were structured.
                      Where he failed IMO was in how to go about changing the system for a better world for us humans to live within. ie “A dictatorship of the proletariat” that would THEN allow for the eventual “withering away of the state/nations” In other words he got exactly right ‘what was wrong. The way to right it OR the way to change it; he got wrong IMO … because he failed to see that once such a dictator, having got him/herself set up … then it would stay exactly that way … as has been the case with all communist countries since.
                      Freud saw clearly where we humans were NOT doing the best for ourselves … emotionsally. Janov discovered the way to right that wrong. I contend the analogy holds true for current governings of all countries.

                      Others saw the falacy in Marx’s way to CHANGE it. Only capitalist systems calling themselves “Democracies” (democracy as defined, meaning BY the people) The people never govern themselves.
                      Once you’ve voted in a government, you’ve change only the deckchair arrangement on a sinking Titanic. Real change, Radical change in the event of the Titanic would be:- mending the hole caused by the iceberg. That (as an analogy) is a real change, a RADICAL change, a real revolution. So!!!!! If we created something (money) that we find is inhibiting our ability to have full-filling lives then abolishing it is:- Radical, Revolutionary, AND Change. All else is to quote:- “Reshuffling the deckchairs on a sinking Titanic.”

                      One suggestion as to how it MIGHT manifest itself is:- that we take what we need … and give back (to save us from shear boredom) that we are able to give… by way of labor or service. Now if one starts from that point to contemplate just how that would continue to manifest itself; then there is good chance to see the thing through. Violence, I do not see as an option since what we fight for is:- to get more than we (actually) need …………… just in case!!!!!!!

                      One last question you raised:- “But it is an important related question, isn’t it?”
                      NO!!!!! it’s not even vaguely related.


  178. Margaret says:

    Phil, it sounds important you are getting in touch with the anger and can relate it to the contstant feeling of resentment you describe.
    wish you all a happy New year, despite the setbacks of life we all have to deal with.
    called my mom today after visiting her yesterday, and told her at the end of our phone conversation I love her. it was nice to hear her say ‘I know!’ in a hearty and warm convincing way. that is specially good as for a long time I struggled with doubt about this isssue and painful feelings about not feeling able to make her feel sure about my love. as a kid I got very confused and frustrated about her need on this matter.
    now we seem at peace and with room for tenderness and caring. it is sad there is not much time left. a good couple of years though hopefully. the doctor asked me about a possible ‘do not reanimate’ agreement, so I decided to check about that with mom, and her clear reply is that she would want to be reanimated in case of heart failure. of course she is not entirely aware of all the possible damage one can have after a heartattack at that age, but she clearly wants to keep on living as much as possible still, so I won’t sign that ‘do not reanimate’ clause for her.

    so many more happy or happier years for all of you,
    Margaret and Pluche and Plukkie the cats.

  179. Leslie says:

    “Tears are for the soul what soap is for the body.”
    Hebrew Proverb
    (sent by R. – a great collector of quotes)
    Happy New Year Everyone!

  180. Daniel says:

    Hi Chris P.
    The subject of circumcision is obviously painful for you and I felt sorry that my own comment added somehow to that pain. My point wasn’t to defend the practice. Like you and others on the blog I think it is an unnecessary medical procedure, at least in the developed world were sanitary and educational conditions are favourable.

    Where we part – and that was my point – is the amount of damage done, especially psychologically. Compared to other males, circumcised males are not more prone to serious mental difficulties, and therefore you will not find increased prevalence of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders, major mood disorders, suicide, or severe substance abuse among them.

    You describe the practice in very harsh terms, using a very aggressive language that portrays circumcision as a malicious attack upon a helpless creature. We part also on this point. Most parents who circumcise their baby boy care about him deeply and just follow a tradition. Some of them feel that initiating him into their culture and heritage is an honor and a sign of acceptance rather than an unloving attack. Other parents do it because they believe, rightly or not, that it will be beneficial to his health. If it results in any lasting psychological damage it is done inadvertently.

    I’m not saying that psychological harm cannot come from circumcision. It can, but that would depend on many factors beside the act itself. To take it to a more general perspective, the problem, I think, is exactly like you describe it:

    Once a man realizes his parents have betrayed him and have cut away a very valuable organ, I am not sure how that in itself would not be the source of grave emotional problems.

    It is the realization of betrayal that causes the emotional problems. But what if one does not feel it to have been a betrayal? Perhaps then less emotional problems will follow.

    We each “choose” a focal point for our pain, an incident or several incidents that hold a painful part of our experience and give it a shape. For me it was my mother leaving me in the hospital at a very young age after lying to me she will stay. It became a focal point for my pain not only because of that particular incident but also because its nature endowed it with descriptive powers for a certain human experience I was having; it became a sort of prototype for all the other times I felt she was leaving me, even times I could not cognitively remember. In other words, that particular memory became a container for a certain emotional truth for me.

    However, that emotional truth, built from many pieces of life over many years, isn’t photographic equipment that captures a still-life true representation of reality. In other words, even though at the height of my pain or at times of regression it may have felt that way, my mother wasn’t really a cruel person out to hurt her child but a real person with a real history, real strengths and weaknesses, trying to do her best in real circumstances, and who wasn’t aware enough of what’s going on inside me. After therapy and because of therapy and the processes of feeling and grieving it initiated, my perspective of her and our relationship became mobilized and became richer and more benign.

    To look at it from a Primal stand point, Janov wasn’t an insurance examiner who studies the physical conditions that brought about terrible things, but rather a psychologist studying the human mind; and in that capacity he didn’t study traumatic situations per se but rather the effects of traumatic situations on the mind; not the actual historical facts but the way the psyche adapts to those facts. And for the psyche, for our feelings, the historical is potentially a combination of:
    -What has happened;
    -What hasn’t happened;
    -What could have happened;
    -What has happened to someone else but not to me;
    -What could not have happened.

    In my opinion, this combination, in various configurations, is what we are experiencing in the therapeutic situation and in life when dealing with our pain, even if we have a focal point, a single event that holds that line of experience for us.

    • As much as I hate to interrupt the flow of this conversation, I have to say this is a terrific post, Daniel.

      (“Terrific” being a blunt, off-the-cuff adjective hurriedly thought by a groggy, recently awoken brain.)

      No need for me to say more for now. Happy 2017 to most of you!

      • Well, actually there is a bit more: Aren’t circumcisions helpful in reducing urinary tract infections? And what about adult circumcisions performed in Africa to reduce the spread of AIDS?

      • Phil says:

        This latest comment of yours on circumcision is very interesting. It reminds of a guy I know from the PSG forum who has described how the trauma of circumcision formed a crucial part in the formation of his neurosis. He didn’t seem to understand that for other
        circumcised men, that might not be the case.
        It certainly seems like whether circumcision ends up being a major formative trauma of some kind or not would depend on individual circumstances. In my own case, other things seem to have been more important, such as what happened with my mother.

        Maybe I misunderstood, but your first comment on circumcision seemed to be defending the practice. I think I have been mistaken several times on viewpoints you were expressing as to your exact stance.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Daniel: By what ever way you wish to think about it for a little baby that knows nothing, except it’s own feeling/s, having something sniped away from it’s body … be it a foreskin, clitoris, or umbilical cord before it shrivels when it is no longer needed:- is pain, Pain PAIN … nothing less. To suggest it is “an unnecessary practice” is to belittle the babies feeling/s.

      Permit me to quote you and respond:- “Where we part – and that was my point – is the amount of damage done, especially psychologically. Compared to other males, circumcised males are not more prone to serious mental difficulties, and therefore you will not find increased prevalence of schizophrenia or other psychotic disorders, major mood disorders, suicide, or severe substance abuse among them.”
      There is a reason, ‘A PRIMAL REASON’ why one isn’t driven insane and that, as I see it, is:- the body and mind shuts down from it, giving the baby respite until such times (if ever) as a “re-living” Commonly referred in medical terms as:- Amnesia. That means, as I know you know, the pain does NOT go away. “Unnecessary” is a major understatement.

      It matters little what parents do things for and to their babies for their own considered good reasons. It’s the baby that has to undergo the pain. Fuck the parental ‘good intentions’.

      One last point and another quote:- “Once a man realizes his parents have betrayed him and have cut away a very valuable organ, I am not sure how that in itself would not be the source of grave emotional problems.”
      The only persons that could “not be sure how that in itself ……….” is someone that has NOT RE-LIVED IT. period end; as I see it. Somewhere lurking in this response of yours Daniel, suggest to me a defense; BUT that’s just me.


      • Sylvia says:

        I completely agree with you Jack. A baby only knows what is being done to it, that he is being hurt beyond tolerance. He doesn’t have the where-with-all to question why. All he knows is something dangerous has happened after probably another stressful thing–birth.
        After seeing the videos of the ‘procedure’ I cannot imagine anyone would be okay for this to be done.

        I understand that in war it can be an issue with infection because of no ability to have a bath in a foxhole. But it can be done at a time of the boy’s or man’s choosing.
        Just wondering, Hypothetically, how many here would have their baby boy undergo this procedure. A loaded question for the new year.

        • Chris P says:

          Great points Sylvia. And a very good question. I think anyone who has relived the experience as an adult would never allow their baby boy to be genitally cut. Only someone who was cut off from their own experience with it or deluded by misinformation or religious fantasy would have their tender baby boy cut.

      • Daniel says:

        Babies get into and out of trouble all the time. If parents are there and responsive and are good enough the baby recuperates quite rapidly and all is well again. Winnicott said that babies can suffer x, and they can suffer x+y, but they can’t suffer x+y+z. If parents are what I said above then this final z is never reached or never lasts for too long.

        Unlike you I do not have the luxury of sending parents’ good intentions to fuck off. Although they have been dead for quite some time I still need them to be good intentioned.

        Finally, in your last paragraph you say that,

        The only persons that could “not be sure how that in itself ……….” is someone that has NOT RE-LIVED IT. period end

        Since the only person who did utter these words is someone who actually did re-live it (Chris P.), I find your comment more than ironic.

      • Chris P says:

        Jack great point, babies could give a fuck about a parents intentions. That’s a mind game that adults play with themselves!

  181. Margaret says:

    I am watching a documentary about victims of the Brussels terrorist attacks.
    it is moving, young and not so young people, one man slowly recovering from severe leg and foot injuries, but also working with refugees now. he still needs psychiatric help though about the trauma, and still needs some operations on his foot.
    a young girl with severe burns has had operations on one eye, and talks about how the burns cause problems as the size of her mouth has become smaller with the burnings, causing all kinds of problems, to eat, to go to the dentist etc.they are both open and sensitive and courageous and moving forward.
    and Patrick, do not insult me and them by saying they are probably actors, I assure you they are not.
    please hold back from commenting anything to this.
    it is disconcerting to be faced with the all too real consequences of this kind of blind violence, destroying and damaging so many lives.
    I admire the people that still go on and try to make the best of things, but I also feel touched as I know the recurrent episods of grief and pain they will have to face, and the permanent loss of how they once were.
    it is hard to understand why people want to inflict that kind of pain to people they have never met and who have not done anything to them.
    it must be some kind of delusional state of mind, a cut off from feeling reality brainwashed into thinking one does the right thing is all so sad and senseless.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Just me; but I see them taking revenge for what they consider to be acts of (invariably) violence against themselves or their own kind.
      The problem is they are not doing it to the very people that did ‘whatever’ to them Or their kind. It’s an act-out of the feeling going on inside them. The tragedy is that it perpetuates upon itself. One act-out begets another, and so the ‘old merry goes round and round’. There-in to me, is the REAL tragedy.

      An example for me was the little boy that got locked in a closet for three years that I read and related on the blog, and then he died. Now the mother is in jail awaiting trial for murder. As I see it, and I know I’m an oddity in this respect, is that whatever punishment the mother is given for her act … resolves nothing. It was, I am certain, her own background and childhood that caused her to do such an act. Whatever the Justice department does rectifies naught and so we go on and on and on inflicting punishment for what some legislator has called a criminal act. Tolstoy’s “Crime and Punishment” It’s resolving nothing, and more and more such acts will continue. We’ve missed the ‘train’, ‘bus’, ‘boat’ OR what you will.

      It’s not hard to see why … but how to prevent such things in the future is the REAL question that should be being asked. Sadly, I feel, we never go there. However, I do agree; “it must be some kind of delusional state of mind, a cut off from feeling reality brainwashed into thinking one does the right thing is all so sad and senseless.”

      We’re doing the very same with ISIS, little realizing we created them.

      Is there a way out????? In my delusional mind; yes there is.


    • Patrick says:

      Yes Margaret it is my considered opinion that Brussels was a hoax and of course to carry off a hoax you not only have to do it but to keep the story going. I have not seen the TV programme you are talking about but I would see it in that light. Btw it seems the recent Berlin truck event was yet another one…………………

      • Patrick says:

        I wrote to Dr Kollerstrom about the Berlin truck ‘event’ saying it seemed really dubious and his reply was

        “totally, a hoax. i couldn’t be bothered to do a page on it, it was so similar to the Nice lorry hoax”

  182. Chris P says:


    Pardon me if I use language that is not to your liking; I am aggressive and use aggressive language because I care about infant males and think that there ought to be laws protecting them (in the way there are laws protecting baby girls) from having their genitals cut at birth for non-existent medical reasons or for barbaric/archaic religious initiation traditions. In your mind, you have totally normalized and minimized the abuse you have experienced. I repeat from my earlier post: male genital mutilation—of which you are a victim—involves ripping the glans from the fused foreskin and then slicing it off: with that comes the loss of 15 functions, significantly reduced pleasure in sex, and a gross assault on bodily integrity. And you are passing this off as incidental? I have my work cut out for me.

    Your main positions as far as I can see are what we call in logic “argument from tradition” (justifying an act on the basis of tradition) and rationalization (normalizing or giving reasons to support something that is inherently wrong). They hold no weight. Genital mutilation is a huge trauma and is a huge loss for the victim in adulthood. What percentage or how much of that contributes to mental illness is interesting, but is really a distraction. And anyway, there is clearly a connection between male genital mutilation and mental illness. But let me grant you, for the sake of argument, that there is not. Still in that case, the infant male has had his genitals carved up and has had a very important organ removed, against his will. That is wrong! No ifs, ands, or buts!

    Your references to focus points, Janov and psychology in general are a tad convoluted and so not really worth my time responding to. And anyway, I don’t really feel like I am deficient in my understanding of any of that. I really read the essence of your point as being something like “in the bigger scheme of things—if the parents are loving—it is not really a big deal: it is a traditional initiation rite that is minimally—if at all—damaging.” I see an element of “Stockholm Syndrome” in this, where you have identified with and now defend and perpetuate the abuse handed down by your perpetrators/parents. As I asked you before, would you be okay as an adult male with being forcibly held down and having your genitals sliced up? You did not reply. In fact, you selectively replied to other very solid points of my post. Of course you would not consent. No one in their right mind would. And I am sure no new-born male “consents” to having his genitals carved up. Watch them cry and squirm. They are saying “don’t touch me”. And this is why they have to be forcibly restrained. At first I thought it might just be ignorance on your part, but you are clearly defending and this can be the only reason you would accept and trivialize male genital mutilation. I read part of your post as saying you’re not aware of a betrayal or trauma then it is not a betrayal or a trauma. That is absurd. The way I interpret that is that you just haven’t allowed yourself to fully grasp the loss and the fact that your parents handed you over to strangers, who forcibly held you down and then cut off a major part of your genitalia injuring you sexually. You would have to own up to what happened to you as an infant first before you would be able to protect future generations and to speak out against it.

    If someone wants to honor their ancestors then they should do so by finding ways to protect and advance their boys, not injure them. In Judaism for example, some Jews are giving up the Bris and replacing it with the “Bris Shalom.”—a naming ceremony that does not involve genital cutting. This is a more considerate way of initiating into a religion that does not involve an assault on the child’s bodily integrity and autonomy. Newborns don’t understand, nor do they care what an initiation or tradition is. Their needs are relatively simple: to be protected and cared for. Handing an eight day old infant over to a bunch of old guys to have his genitals sliced up is neither protection nor care. And anyways, what the fuck is the fascination with the boy’s genitals? Why would anybody in their right mind think that a loving God would want this of their child? This is so fucking nuts. Freud referenced Tertullian, the 2nd Century Roman who famously defended Judeo/Christian religious beliefs as such: “I believe because it is absurd.” This certainly applies here. Male genital mutilation is absurd.

    Children can experience multiple traumas, some chronic some acute, but again this is one that has a lingering physical component as it involves the actual loss of an organ. The child’s body is his or her own but the cutter chooses to carve his/her beliefs and traditions onto the child’s body. I can’t believe you—as a psychologist—would minimize the loss of an organ and say that that was an incidental loss even if it could not be traced to psychological disorders in adulthood.

    I think you understand the folly with the idea that there are medical benefits to male genital mutilation, but let me just make a few points here: girls are 4 times more likely to get a UTI, but there is no reflex to cut away parts of their genitalia to prevent them. And furthermore, when a girl gets an infection, she gets a prescription. Again, soap and water is the best way to clean genitalia and condoms to prevent HIV/AIDS. As I mentioned in my previous post, in Europe where male genital cutting is rare, they have basically the same rates of infection for HIV/AIDS that we have here in the US..

    I assume you live here in the United States or Canada where we are raised with the idea of rights: we don’t own our children; none of us do. We are tasked with their care and to give them the best shot at a good life. Handicapping and injuring them sexually in no way accomplishes this.


  183. Daniel says:

    Thanks for the detailed response and the book recommendation. Again you seem at least partially to barge through an open door. I do not defend or recommend circumcision. My only concern was whether or not it is, as you call it, “a huge trauma”.

    Since you accuse me of not only being a victim with a Stockholm Syndrome but also of evading your questions, let me answer: No, I wouldn’t have agreed to “being forcibly held down and having my genitals sliced up”.

    But allow me to return that question: how many circumcisions have you seen with your own eyes? I’m asking because I’ve been to at least 20 and they look nothing like you describe. Parents never “hand you over to strangers” nor is the baby ever “being forcibly held down”. On the contrary, it lies comfortably in his godfather’s lap (usually a grandfather), the whole thing takes a few seconds, after which the mother immediately takes the baby in her arms. Sometimes she nurses him and usually he falls asleep very shortly afterwords.

    Does he feel physical pain? Yes, I think he does. Does he cry? Yes, he does, but not for too long. An ear infection in a baby looks more painful and produces more cries and is harder to calm down without medication. Will he later in life have emotional difficulties because of it? Well, many circumcised men have a relatively full and productive lives and it’s very difficult to trace any problems they do have to circumcision. Will he enjoy sex? I think he mostly will.

    Although this wasn’t my main point but a side issue you describe the “medical benefits” as a folly. I’m not an expert on this subject and don’t know enough about it, but it’s the World Health Organization’s folly, not mine. You might want to check the links in my above reply to Guru.

    It feels funny when I say that I do not feel I was betrayed and you’re saying “yes you were”; that I enjoy sex and you’re saying “no you don’t”.

    • Sylvia says:

      I think I’d rather have the ear infection if I were that little baby, at least it would not be intentional. This baby cried more than five minutes of terror at the bris.

      • Chris P says:

        Sylvia, thank you for posting this video.

        I think this says it all. This poor boy. The adults are standing around hugging and joking around while another man sticks his fingers, probably with sugar on them, to “comfort” the boy, while another rips the foreskin from the penis. To effectively do perform the cutting, the baby boys penis is stimulated to make it easier to cut. The child is clearly experiencing excruciating pain. The adults are making all kinds of noise: singing and nervous chatter to block the obvious abuse that is taking place before their eyes. Later the cutter puts a napkin or some kind of towel to stifle the boys child. This is a brutal act of betrayal.

        Daniel, please give up on this one man. You seem like a somewhat reasonable person, so please offer a firm voice against this. Male genital mutilation is not subtle no matter what you say. It is evil and this poor boy will be irrevocably changed as a result. This is child sexual abuse and a crime.

  184. Erron says:

    “Does he feel physical pain? Yes, I think he does. Does he cry? Yes, he does, but not for too long.”

    – um, since you’re such an expert, having assisted in/witnessed this abomination so many times, perhaps you can enlighten us with your definition of ‘too long’? I assume you can tell us – to the exact second – just how long is too long? Otherwise you couldn’t make this judgement, could you…

    I’m further assuming you never did PT, but if you did, obviously you failed to get to first base of either understanding the basics of the theory, or of actually feeling on any meaningful level.


    • Patrick says:

      The last paragraph is spoken like a true primal ‘know nothing’………..imbued with a ‘theory’ the practice of you have never seen in effect yourself. You just take all what it says in “The Good Book” as literal and face value.

      • Erron says:

        You have no idea what I have and haven’t seen. FYI, I have experience (as a patient) of 3 primal centres at different periods over a 30 year time span. But just continue to blow it out your fat arse as usual…

        • Patrick says:

          Ah…………..wouldn’t they be 3 ‘mock primal therapy centers’ then? Not that I really go along with the ‘mock’ idea but you DO often strike me as a kind of ‘true believer’ but also in the sense of ‘worshiping from afar’. You read the book and take it all a bit literally and like a lot of people on Janov’s blog seem to be people who never came to Janov for therapy. All the more easy then to just adhere to a kind of ideology with no experience of the flaws and limitations of the way it is typically done. You have ‘gone off’ on me several times usually inappropriately imo as was your outburst to Daniel here…………………..

  185. Otto Codingian says:

    i’m so fucking sad. an unending life of losses.

    • Larry says:

      On some plane, I’m sort of with you Otto. The music video I’m including opened me up. Theirs was one of the first albums I bought, 45 years ago. Their music had a big influence on me. It feels even more profound seeing them playing it now, seeing how time has passed, seeing the losses–people important to me gone, health and vigour waning, my life’s dream career near an end, the magic of my first and only love now memories in the past, life still worth living but coming closer to the end. I cry sadness about having to make friends with getting older.

  186. Otto Codingian says:

    BB asked me saturday in group why did i think i was such a bad father (after screaming out my sorrow at not realizing what my kid’s pain was about, when he was 7 or 8). It still all boils down to losing my mom at 10 months. I realize this as i am sobbing watching and listening to the joyful and vivacious haley reinhart. my life, which never really got going in full gear, is just about over.

  187. Daniel says:

    I will gladly follow Chris’ suggestion and drop the subject. I promise to give it further thought and anyhow, by now the opinions and the deviding lines are clear and need no repitition.

    And Happy New Year to all of you. I’m really trying to see the silver lining in what looks like a frightening and unstable future. In the meantime not only am I happy to part with terrible 2016 I’m actually considering to file for alimony.

    • Chris P says:


      I was not suggesting that the subject be dropped. I was saying that–after that damning video–you should give up any attempt to defend it or portray it in a positive light.

      I think male genital mutilation needs to be discussed over and over until it is stopped. I think it needs to be brought out in the open until everyone can see it for the ancient terror that it is. And I personally will not stop discussing it until there is a law forbidding all male infant circumcision–religious and medical.

      And Happy New Year to you.

  188. Patrick says:

    “A papal bull issued in 1442 by
    the Roman Catholic Church stated that male circumcision
    was unnecessary, “Therefore it strictly
    orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to
    practice circumcision either before or after baptism,
    since whether or not they place their hope in it, it
    cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal

    So all these “Papal Bulls” were not necessarily bull……………………….I have to say I am glad to kind of ‘re-discover’ some of my heritage and personal experience had some good things about them. What I remember with all of my younger siblings is on the way home from the Hospital with Mom and baby about 2 weeks after birth we stopped at the local Church and the baby was baptized given his/her name and holy water poured onto the baby’s forehead. I was always struck by the beauty and solemnity of the occasion and to this day water has positive associations in my mind.

  189. Patrick says:

    I am wondering if I took a “Conceptual Leap” high enough would it take me “Across the Rubicon” and on my way down I might “RE-LIVE” the whole thing and then would I then be able to tell my ass from my elbow?

  190. Phil:

    You were discussing how the 10 million millionaires (including multi-millionaires, centi-millionaires, billionaires, and multi-billionaires) not willingly parting with their wealth or power to taxation. It reminded me of this Erin Janus video about the materialism trap. What do you think of it?

    • Sylvia says:

      What a wise young woman. Money beyond feeling secure in having a place to live and food to eat we do then tend to use it to make ourselves happy filling a void in our emotional lives.

      Daniel, you say that the lines of opinion about circumcision have been drawn. Can you say what you felt when you saw and heard that baby cry in agony from the bris?

    • Phil says:

      I watched the video. I can’t argue against what she says. For the most part, I don’t think people can just choose to change, and then go through with it. I don’t think I’m obsessed with material things, and I never was so much.
      What’s also interesting is that when the speaker mentions that we could help those poor people around the world, some of them starving, it’s our economy that gives us the potential to do that. Just a few thoughts on it. What do you think of it?

      • Phil: As far as I know America’s 330 million people have a combined household net worth of $90 trillion or so (including primary residences).

        This boils down to roughly $270,000 for every man, woman, and child in the country (including kindergarteners and pre-schoolers and babies, institutionalized mental cases, death row prisoners, heroin dealers, homeless bums dumpster diving, etc. etc.)

        Our country could easily afford a Universal Basic Income at least on a limited scale so that people could have more time to pursue humanitarian passions without reward.

        • Phil says:

          I’m in favor of a Universal Basic Income in some form.. Some would argue that such a policy would reduce the amount of wealth produced because people might not be motivated to work. We would become a poorer country and that Universal Basic Income would have to be continually reduced as a result. But those might not be important concerns.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: the read motivation to (tasking) work is;- that no-one would want to sit around contemplating their naval. It’s boring. Even someone like me, now well into retirement do not want to just sit around. Most volunteers are old retirees looking to alleviation utter boredom. That’s the REAL motivation. The only people wanting sit around on beaches are the ones having spent the whole year working their balls off.


  191. Margaret says:

    how stupid of me to imagine one moment you might respect my request to not insult me or the Brussels victims once more, Patrick.
    and don’t give me your shit about wanting to express your view, your goal is simply to hurt, me in this case.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – what I don’t understand is why the idea that the Brussels event was a hoax would hurt you? Would you not be happy that nobody died there that it was theater to demonize Muslims and scare Christians for the benefit of someone else. I found it interesting also you said the programme said one ‘victim’ was now helping refugees. What a nice touch that is and how ‘moving’.(In quotes for sure)…………..seems also very manipulative like this person is in reality some Christian dope who is masochistic enough to turn around and ‘help’ the very people who are supposed to have hurt him. We can be ‘inspired’ if we are gullible but my bet is somewhere the ‘script writers’ of this whole charade are laughing some evil and cynical laugh. Sad to say that is very much the ‘real’ world we live in now. I am at a loss as to why this kind of thinking makes you feel bad it’s just my take on the whole thing.

  192. Margaret says:

    Otto, I can relate to what you write. hang in there please, you are more likeable than you realize, hope some day you will like yourself more as well and I hope your situation will evolve for the better.

  193. Margaret says:

    Patrick, does it ever even occur to you the only cynical around might be you? and of course the ones you seek backup from and confirmation for your distorted ideas.
    and how it hurts?
    well, as your mind does not seem to function properly I will spell it out for you.
    – you do not respect what I politely asked you
    -you treat me and my opinion as stupid/sheepminded etc.
    -you ridicule and offend the pain and grief of true victims
    – you judge and dismiss the ttruth of events you never really bothered to investigate about apart from on the sites of other crazy conspiracy obsessed persons or plain manipulators and racists
    – you deliberately chose to go against what I asked and did the exact opposite.
    – you are full of disdain and cynism about anything you can think of, and seem to enjoy offending and crapping all over anything that means something to us.
    a true troll in other words.

  194. Margaret says:

    another interesting Attenborough documentary.
    the recent reconstruction, started off with the finding of a giant thighbone, and then gradually excavating 233 more bones, of the biggest dino known so far. something with Titan in its name. not the Tyrannotitan, that is another one, big bro from T.Rex. this one I am talking about was a vegetarian. his size was about the equivalent of 15 elephants put together…

    pretty impressive, but still better to run into than the Tyranno meateating predator member of the family..

  195. Phil says:

    I have understood this concept “that we take what we need … and give back (to save us from shear boredom) that we are able to give… by way of labor or service”.
    I have to point out that you still say nothing about how to get there from where we are here.
    Also, how do you get people to give up that nasty habit of wanting more than they need, and then taking it? Who will stop them? Will we just ask them to be nice?
    Also, who is it that will define what we all need? As it may not be obvious to everyone.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Two points here that YOU conveniently skate over.
      Taking more than one needs requires that we then need to store it. That can be labor intensive even if you have a huge freezer.

      Greed: the collective word describing humans that wish to hoard is a FACTOR of money and/or and exchange system … be it money, barter or otherwise.

      The last point of your CURRENT ASSUMPTIONS is:- “How do we get from here to there”. It’s a silly question because YOU’VE ASSUMED an “in-and-between”. If you were to carefully think about it there is no “in-and-between” from having something … then not having it. eg. I had a feeling … suddenly I don’t have that feeling. Like Karl Marx, you ASSUME a transition.
      If you abolish money. Last moment there was this item called ‘money’ … we abolished it … suddenly there is no money. Hence the question carries with it an assumption/transition. If a transition does not apply then WHY an ASSUMPTION. That is conjured up in your head.
      Just because you conjured it up in your head is NOT to say it exists … other than in your head.


      • Phil says:

        What happens the day after money is abolished? I guess I could just go to the supermarket and take what I need without paying. But for how long would there continue to be food on the shelves?
        Since I would no longer need money I wouldn’t go to work. I guess that my boss, who is a physician, might ask me to come to work anyway, But I’m not sure how his business would work in the future. He might be flooded with patients wanting free treatment for cancer. I suppose he could just ask for medicine from his suppliers and they might or might not be able to comply because their workers might have decided to stay home.
        I think that almost all of us currently work to make money. I know that I do, but I do like to feel I’m making a useful contribution. However I’m bored with my current job, so I probably wouldn’t be that motivated to continue.
        But many people work in jobs which have no obvious use. What about all the sales people. Since nothing would be sold, their jobs would be eliminated.
        I’m afraid chaos would result from the elimination of money. I think that people would starve and societal structures would fall apart. There would be radical change.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Phi: “What happens the day after money is abolished? I guess I could just go to the supermarket and take what I need without paying.
          Correct. “But for how long would there continue to be food on the shelves?”
          As long as someone… perhaps many, would be motivated to fill the shelves, to farm ln for food and on and on and on

          “Since I would no longer need money I wouldn’t go to work” So what would you do???? Masturbate”.?????????????
          “I guess that my boss, who is a physician, might ask me to come to work anyway, But I’m not sure how his business would work in the future. He might be flooded with patients wanting free treatment for cancer. I suppose he could just ask for medicine from his suppliers”
          Correct. “and they might or might not be able to comply because their workers might have decided to stay home.”
          AND there might be folks motivated to create those medicines”!!!!!!!!!!!!!

          “I think that almost all of us currently work to make money”.
          Sadly; yes in boring work they hate. Take away money and they cease to need to WORK … simple! Just task … at what motivates them
          “I know that I do, but I do like to feel I’m making a useful contribution.”
          There you go again, with a head trip that you are contributing. It’s a consolation prize.
          Why do you manage that site ‘Primal Support group’??? to make money???
          “However I’m bored with my current job, so I probably wouldn’t be that motivated to continue. But many people work in jobs which have no obvious use”.
          Correct. “What about all the sales people.”
          They’d not do such a fucking waste-full unproductive job … cos they would see the uselessness of such a job … so they be motivated to do something useful … to and for themselves. Other useless jobs are:- the police (highly paid bullies) Militaries (highly paid killers), Lawyers, (highly paid law book searcher). Legislators (highly paid egotist)

          “Since nothing would be sold, their jobs would be eliminated”.

          “I’m afraid chaos would result from the elimination of money”
          Chaos surrounds us all the time with such things as Weather, Traffic, Pedestrians, Nature, Economics, Health-Care and many others. What is so terrible about chaos?????
          “I think that people would starve and societal structures would fall apart.” Only think?????????
          I see it is ‘here and now … in this capitalist system’ that people starve, commit atrocities, murder one another, are greedy, act-out anger by means of revenge etc. etc.

          Phil: Your argument is circular. ie. the first event begets the last.


          • Patrick says:

            Phil – you didn’t ask me but this appears to be pure insanity. I have been the ‘victim’ of this in ‘real life’ and it’s no fun. The mad professor is high on his own certainties, ego and insanity best not to approach or engage…………..

  196. Patrick says:

    “First there is a mountain, then there is no mountain, then there is”

  197. Phil says:

    When I went out with my wife New Years Eve we had a very good time, it was probably the best time I ever had for that holiday evening. But yesterday we had a nasty incident over some stupid stuff at home. Not a surprise as it capped off a bad week excluding Christmas and New Years Eve. Something to do with our behavior and expectations for the holidays and the fact that she has been on vacation but not me. I have been feeling ignored, and disappointed, angry about her behavior towards me.
    Today I got to more of the anger towards my mother and the hurt. When I think of her I think of being ignored and punished. It seemed today that a tiny new memory opened up for me about what she was like as a person before being severely ill; connected to the feelings I was in.
    That has been so difficult for me to remember, so it feels like a good step.
    A major part of these feelings is wanting my father to intervene somehow. To get my mother to treat me better, to do something. I connect to getting some good things from him, so that is a useful anchor.
    He was somewhat available for me But he didn’t intervene in any way for me with my mother as far I can remember. I was subject to her harshness and craziness and it was very hurtful and damaging, and I still suffer from it’s effects.

  198. Otto Codingian says:

    good song p

  199. Otto Codingian says:

    although i have no idea what it means

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – I don’t know for sure but what Donovan was saying was this thing that was about a t the time about how a young ‘student’ goes to meditate under a master. So the student is ‘naive’ in the way he approaches the world he believes what is in front of him just trusts his senses so when he looks and he sees a mountain “there is a mountain” As a bit of a jokey aside think of that student as Margaret.

      Then as he probes deeper into his mind and reality he discovers most everything is an illusion. He discovers he can’t really trust his senses and so on most stuff he believed to be true is only hearsay, what he has been told etc.So even seeming rock solid obvious things he can no longer believe in most everything turns out to be an illusion. As a bit of jokey aside you can think of me, sees illusions, false flags and hoaxes but nothing real he can believe in “there is no mountain”

      Then as his wisdom deepens he goes beyond the ‘everything is an illusion’ stage somehow and sort of comes back full circle and accepts the world again the way he originally saw it. This is not so clear of course but anyway that’s the idea it’s some kind of illuminated state where once again “there is a mountain” I am going by memory here about all this and it’s not so important really but since you did ask that’s my understanding of it. But yes it’s a cool song lots of Donovan’s songs were ‘cool’ I wonder if the primal ayatollah fundamentalist will find this somehow ‘wrong’ at least so far he finds everything I do to be ‘wrong’ but to quote the maniac himself his father believed in breaking his spirit and he seems determined to try to break mine. Most people would see that as an ‘act out’ (indicating his father ‘suceeded’ and also he seemingly has not suceeded in RE-LIVING all that or if he did it seems to make no difference to his behaviour) including the ayatollah himself but I am sure he has some ‘excuse’ and is in some deep denial. At least everything I have seen up to now

  200. Phil says:

    You seem to purposely misunderstand
    what I say. It seems to me that you like this idea so much, have such an attachment to it, that you can’t look at any possible flaws. Under those conditions, no real debate is possible.
    I have given it plenty of consideration and it still comes up short for me. I rest my case. Maybe you have some other theories as yet mentioned which would lead to better discussions.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: I am truly sorry if you feel that I “purposely misunderstand”. That sure was not my intent, BUT I will restate, at the risk of sounding defended, that the problem with trying to put across an idea that has never been tried in our know human history; is bound, by definition, to be no better than a conjecture.

      If indeed you have given the idea a considerable amount of thought and conjectured yourself about how a state of being as I, and others, have suggested, then I am truly respectful of that.

      All I can add to it is that I am not the only person that believes in this idea and I am certain I will not be the last, AND hopefully one day, if we don’t totally destroy the planet first, it will get tried. However if you are CERTAIN the idea has flaws, point those flaws out to me ‘clearly’ and I will consider them, and respond. Maybe you feel you have pointed them out, BUT, for something never tried, how can you be so, so certain it has flaws? That Phil is a very sincere question on my part.

      The only other theory that may be different to any others (except perhaps the one Primal person I know that also Is an “anarchist” (the name given to this idea) is that if this ‘anarchy was to come about, it would bring about the demise of neurosis (My only other theory) However I take it you have “rested your case”, presumably meaning that you no longer wish to continue with this discussion. That is fine by me.

      Sorry once more that you feel I “purposely misunderstand”.


      • Phil says:

        This is what I kind of conclude about the abolishing money idea, although my
        thinking on it is subject to influence and change.
        First of all, it may be a good idea, but we aren’t capable of living in such
        a system with the large number of us already living on the planet and dependent
        on the way the economy works, with neurosis and greed flourishing. So, it isn’t the idea so much as us and what we have created.
        If we could start fresh with a much smaller population that was neurosis free
        maybe it would work. Or maybe in small self sufficient communes, to spread
        from there. I’m not seeing money itself as the source of neurosis. I need more evidence or arguments to see that.
        In other words I could see it working among groups of people who have chosen to live that way. It’s difficult for me to imagine it working in a population unprepared in so many ways to the idea, If the population was accepting of the idea and enthusiastic then it might be possible with great difficulty to make that transition. But it’s so many “ifs” that I don’t see it happening.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Phil: I agree with most of what you write here and though I feel it’s very unlikely to happen, least-ways in my life time. I do feel (just a feeling of mine) it’s worth the discussion. Maybe I am not literate enough to be more clear.


  201. Margaret says:

    there are some things I would like to talk about but this blog does not feel safe enough to do so anymore. never thought I’d say this but sadly enough it has become the case.
    who would want to show vulnerability when someone is waiting to ridicule and insult and be hurtful whenever given the chance?
    it is sad, and makes me feel more lonely still.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – if you are talking to/about me and I guess you are it’s true you did ask me not to comment on your comment about Brussels………………..I guess I might have and at the time thought maybe I should but then again you put out your notions about it while sort of ‘commanding’ me not to comment. Did not feel right to me. You are not the boss or certainly not my boss. That old saying about how if you cannot stand the heat you should not be in the kitchen comes to mind.

      Also and for various reasons this is an issue I feel quite strongly about. To me we are being played with all the time now with these ‘hoaxes’ and they are not harmless. There is a clear agenda there of demonizing Muslims and scaring Christians if the people in the West can still even be called that. Maybe we could even say demonizing brown people and scaring white people. Whatever you call it is is ugly and has a clear focus of wrecking whatever is left of society. I detest this kind of behavior and I also have a very good idea of who is doing it and why. On that matter maybe cast your mind back to the circumcision debate last week, turn people even from infancy into cripples and they agenda reliably enough will be to ‘cripple’ society. Just as ChrisP feels the need to speak out about things so do I Margaret. You speak a lot yourself and I really hope not to see you calling again for me to be ‘banned” Gretchen already has the anti free speech quite operative she needs no encouragement. Now put on your big girl pants as they say and suck it up. I cannot harm you nor do I want to in any way.

      • Sylvia says:

        It’s one thing to stay out of the kitchen if you can’t stand the heat, but it is folly to go in when it’s flaming on fire. Don’t blame you Margaret for not wanting to open up when sensitivity and sanity has, like Elvis, left the building sometimes.

        I can imagine the terrorist attack in Brussels is still traumatic, so close to where you live.

        Hope you are enjoying your cats. Mine have become shapeshifters squeezing into every two inch space behind dressers and cabinets they can find.

        Happy new year to you.


      • Daniel says:

        There is a clear agenda there of demonizing Muslims and scaring Christians if the people in the West can still even be called that. Maybe we could even say demonizing brown people and scaring white people. Whatever you call it is is ugly and has a clear focus of wrecking whatever is left of society. I detest this kind of behavior…

        This is a very good summary of one of the facets of the Trump campaign. But as you say, it’s not like you would actually endorse such detestable people and policies.
        Oh.. wait..

        • Patrick says:

          Daniel – this can get to be a bit subtle but what I am trying to say is quiet different than Trump. Trump seems to accept these ‘events’ at FACE VALUE…………………….I do not at all. That is a profound difference if you really think about it. By Trump accepting them at face value the chances of more wars are vastly increased whereas by my way of thinking if he had the understanding that these events above all are Zionist hoaxes with the exact intentions to start more wars Iran being the next big one. So no Daniel that one you got ‘wrong’ also…………….

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I feel you are very right to NOT want to show vulnerability at some of things that are and have been taking place here … including perhaps some of the things I comment upon.

      It’s all very tricky since we are all of us in process … with Primal.

      One thing that has come up for me is that before therapy I was very adapt at judging others, and sadly, proud of it, but very inept at judging myself. As my therapy has progressed I do feel, perhaps wrongly, that I am now better equipped to Judge my self more, and others less. Least-ways I try hard.


  202. Patrick says:

    Or take the latest one the Berlin truck ‘event’ do it at Christmas, discourage and scare white people/Christians have it done always by some crazed loner Muslim, knock down a few Christmas trees just ruin everything for everyone……………..and then hold ‘ceremonies’ at the Brandenberg Gate ‘mourning’ the loss of a few Zionists who of course did not die as nobody did.Experts at fake mourning. Wail away and tie it in with lighting the Menorah they are the only ‘good’ people eff the whites and the browns. Do it in Berlin shove it down the German’s throats one more time. And the amazing thing to me is people accept it take it at face value and even get ‘upset’ like Margaret if this little bit of play acting is questioned. It needs to be questioned big time

    • Daniel says:

      So, let me see if I get this right:
      1) The Israelies somehow staged driving a truck into a square in the centre of Berlin.
      2) Nobody got hurt, even though reports are from people from several countries.
      3) The German government, police and emergency services are accomplices and just lie about it all
      4) The Charité (one of Europe’s largest hospital), its doctors, nurses and students are lying through their teeth about the injured they treat
      5) So do the staff at St Hedwig’s hospital
      6) The news agencies, newspapers and TV and radio stations, who operate in a free country, are also accomplices and all report lies.

      Yup.. that makes sense.

  203. Patrick says:

    Last one on this this is a reasonable video about it. Margaret you might if you feel up to it ask yourself why you are so ‘invested’ in the belief that all of this is real. Or why it makes you feel bad the idea that it might not be. Only if you want to of course. But speaking for myself I want to know don’t you? Or is there some enjoyment in all this ‘mourning’ or fake mourning as I see it

  204. Daniel says:

    Sylvia and Chris,
    Watching the Bris video wasn’t easy. It’s heart rending to hear a baby crying, especially against the contrasting backdrop of the celebrating crowd. I’d like to think that very soon afterwards that baby was taken to a quiet place and calmed down further.

    We each pick our own fights, those that matter to us most. I appreciate and have no issue with you picking up this one, and I wish you success, but it isn’t mine. When picking up a public fight one embarks on a political journey, and although the politics are essential in fighting for a cause and effecting change they also skew reality, shrinking it into a black and white image that fits the political agenda. The activist is more committed to his or her cause than to an open, intellectual study and discourse.

    As I mentioned earlier, although the act of circumcision is objectionable I think eventually it’s the long-term parenting that counts, and in the grand scheme of life circumcision may in most cases be a rather minor psychological pain. The loss of a parent at early age, for example, is infinitely greater and more influential than the loss of a foreskin; or living, year in, year out with constant parental abuse or neglect or depression or other severe illness will be more evident in the later adult personality than the mere act of circumcision will.

    Likewise, a boy constantly ridiculed by others for being crippled, effeminate or otherwise different; or derided for being circumcised or for not being circumcised, will most likely bear deeper scars than a crippled, effeminate or circumcised but accepted boy.

    Guru might say that putting a baby or a toddler or a child into a motor vehicle, thus increasing the risk of irreparably damaging not a foreskin but whole external limbs or internal organs, a brain lobe, a liver or a kidney, a spine, if not life itself – in other words, putting the baby in serious harm’s way – might be considered less caring than having him circumcised. I know you might say that circumcision is intentional while automobile accidents are not, but didn’t Chris and Jack, just a blog-moment ago, claimed that parents’ intentions do not matter?

    Of course It’s easy to turn it all into an interpretation of my own disconnection from my own pain, of declaring it to be my own defence as it were; this kind of reading always surrenders itself without a fight to the nearest primal patient.

    However, being mostly unconscious and therefore subject to surprising vicissitudes, Primal Pain has the knack of piggybacking on ideas that will take it somewhere it wants to go, be it toward full encounter with the truth or, perhaps just as often, in the opposite direction toward defense and avoidance of truth. The idea of bringing pain to a baby has all the characteristics necessary to make it an immediate Primal anathema, but given the unconscious properties of Pain couldn’t a Primal fundamentalist idea, with all its concomitant emotional investment, surprisingly serve as a store of defence against truth?

    • Sylvia says:

      Daniel I get the feeling you are comparing traumas–circumcision is not as bad as an unloving or neglectful parent, or having an illness or what ever it can be compared to. To me this is trivializing an unnecessary trauma because it may in time be repressed and forgotten. You don’t know if it may lower I.Q. points, if it may remain as a reverberating circuit causing a bit more nervousness in that child’s life. Just something else the child has to repress and dull his lens of enjoyment of the world. Why not err on the side of caution and give that baby every chance.
      Lastly I have to say that since I’ve gotten to what it feels like to be scared and vulnerable as a little baby such things as circumcision becomes abhorrent for me. I urge you as you are a psycho therapist to ‘go there’ and feel what it is like to be so vulnerable and I’m sure you will no longer think or feel the same as you do now, that tradition is more important and outweighs biological harm.

      • As I read the ongoing exchange between Daniel, Sylvia, and an inscrutable random person whom I am not allowed to directly address out of concern for repercussions, I am compelled to jump in for a minute to side with Daniel on this.
        My dad told me how much I screamed during my circumcision as corroborated by my great-aunt and grandmother. I also screamed and cried a non-stop due to my colic. One of my biggest screaming and crying episodes was in a Steak and Shake restaurant wanting a toy tractor trailer my mother initially didn’t want to buy for me. I cried and screamed for it as loud as my little baby lungs possibly could for endlessly long minutes embarrassing the hell out of mama into shopping submission with many quiet adult diners witnessing the incident. My point being there were a lot of things I cried and screamed about as a baby when the chance was given.
        I also have cuddly baby pictures from when I was a one-year old while my mother was still alive where I am happy as a lark, giggling and laughing where a stranger would have no possible clue I was circumcised.
        With apologies to Sylvia I do find myself in some disagreement with her such that past traumas shouldn’t be compared.

        I am not going to offer scientific and/or impersonal reasons why I tend to side with Daniel here because the issue is “over and done” where I am concerned and I don’t want to expend a lot of emotional energy on it.

        • This is not particularly important, but as an aside I remember my dad telling me the story about the restaurant tractor trailer toy as explained above. From what he said the toy was not for sale and was meant only as a restaurant decoration, so my parents literally had to have a long chat with the manager to arrange its purchase. It was deeply traumatizing that I couldn’t have that toy back then, yet I laugh about it today. The toy is long gone to the mists of time and I only remember it being white with black “Steak & Shake” lettering.

          • Phil says:

            We should be able to find a replacement truck for you on E bay or somewhere; bidding shouldn’t be that high. Your long lost foreskin I’m sure is no where to be found.
            Of course you know that the amount of screaming and crying at the time of an event isn’t necessarily an indication of how traumatic something was. In many of my scenes, I was actually quiet, and not crying at all.

            • Phil: Neither one of those objects are important for me to find. I did look up the semi truck and there are some similar models of varying ages in existence. If I had the EXACT truck from the same year it might cause a few emotional stirrings, but I doubt it’s worth chasing after.
              Daniel has a point, though, that some issues are more important and affecting to some people than others even when both underwent similar experiences.
              I also respect opposing opinions on circumcisions and objectively comparing subjective traumas/experiences. It’s just not a big battle for me personally, that’s all.

            • Daniel says:

              That’s exactly right, Phil, “the amount of screaming and crying at the time of an event isn’t necessarily an indication of how traumatic something was”.
              That is exactly my point.

              • Patrick says:

                I agree with that but to me there is another aspect of this aside from any ‘trauma’ to the baby and I am not in any way minimizing that. Maybe even more important is the ON-GOING effects on hormones,and the brain itself. This like most things in biology is quite ‘complicated’ but in short it seems there are MANY disruptions to hormones, pheromones, neurotransmitters etc etc. I truly think this is a much bigger deal than the ‘trauma’ itself which painful as it is is transitory. The ON-GOING effects are sadly permanent.

                • Patrick says:

                  A way to think about this let’s say for some reason a person had their gall bladder or say worse their kidneys taken out………………..the transitory pain (trauma) of the operation counts as next to nothing with the lifetime effects of being without a vital part of the body. And it seems the foreskin is ‘vital’

          • Sylvia says:

            I still think there is a difference between the agony scream of an eight-day-old baby boy having surgery performed on him and the tantrum of a toddler. Still I think that tantrum was valid, though not as devastating to the child. I bet you would have screamed with a different tone being circumcised at one or two, differing from wanting a toy. Or perhaps your fit was an ongoing outcry of the original trauma of being cut. Quien sabe?

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Guru: I quote here your last paragraph where you emphatically state:- “…… side with Daniel here because the issue is “over and done” where I am concerned and I don’t want to expend a lot of emotional energy on it.”

          That is a very strong judgment … then add:- “and I don’t want to expend a lot of emotional energy on it.”
          You never do. So why write your opinion/s on a matter, seemingly, you “do not wish to expend a lot of emotional energy on it.”

          I find you always write stuff here in a very guarded manner. It seems to me, you are very very disturbed by criticism. In the words of Vivian “Take a risk!”