Cure by Jack Waddington page 7 comments

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805 Responses to Cure by Jack Waddington page 7 comments

  1. Jo says:

    Margaret, I’ve just been through and come out of a low time like you describe – it’s horrible…
    Good luck with the dating ..smiley..
    Jo

  2. Sylvia says:

    Vicki, thanks for the new link on the previous page of the man and his dog video. I’ll like watching it now and again.
    S

  3. Margaret says:

    Trump goes egotripping and ranting again. but nobody seems to have any idea what he was referring to when he talked about ‘what just happened in Sweden’…
    a mystery so far, he probably does not know it himself..
    it is pathetic how he needs to gather his followers and tell them, and himself things in the white house are running so smoothly, sooo smoothly, ha!!
    not clear who is crazier, he or the 9000 people cheering his delusional speech.
    M

  4. Margaret says:

    I think one of our reporters made a very good point, when he said Trump seems to be a very insecure kind of person, who at the white house does not get the cheering he needs, but has to work and have people with different opinions he is confronted with.
    therefore his precocious attempt to start a campaign already for 2020 …

    it is a sorry sight to see people driven by their frustrations into a kind of compulsive (auto)destructive behavior…
    i feel the wish I could help but alas I cannot..
    M

  5. Margaret says:

    thanks Jo..
    only had a reaction so far they had received my application and would get in touch about an appointment.
    hope they don’t consider me again as a hopeless case..
    M

  6. Patrick says:

    Speaking

    • Jack says:

      Patrick: If there were no gas chambers, what were the internment camps for and about.? Do you acknowledge that Hitler interred Jews in these camps???
      What was the point of them, if not extermination?

      I remember an old comment I made to Fiona and asked her who I reminded her of, and you chirruped in and wrote Adolph Hitler. Was Hitler and nefarious fascist dictator? and what was his agenda?

      My understanding of “Mien Kemp” was he was intent on ridding Germany of Jews … gays and Gypsies. Making it a pure Aryan race. He also considered the English to be Aryan also … not the Welsh nor the Irish … not sure about the Scots.

      Last point: Do you distinguish between Judaism the religion, the Jewish culture, and Israel? If you were to answer this one question; thoroughly, It might clear up some of the ‘fog’, surrounding some of your comments … and your beliefs.

      To clear up some of mine:- I feel strongly that religious beliefs are an impediment to our ‘natural’ being. I also feel the need to belong to a culture, stems from a lack of earlier feeling of ‘not belonging’. On the question of the creation of a nation arbitrarily as did the British and Americans after WWII was a political mistake … especially on land that did not belong to either nation (to somehow compensate both those nations guilt, or what ever), for things that happened to Jews during that war. However, I am strongly aware of what historically Jews have had to endure for eons. It’s just I did not feel that was a solution. I’m not sure there is a solution … politically.

      Jack

      .

      • Jack says:

        Patrick Quote:- “You seem happier sticking with what you were told and of course what is CONVENIENT for you to believe. The very opposite of primal as I understand it.” then go on:-“Bolster and ‘defend’ even past where it makes any sense. I challenge you to point one thing that was ‘wrong’ about what I wrote..” You are the last to know what is:- “the opposite of primal”.
        Woweee As if you were so fucking perfect, honest and the only one that knows the ‘TRUTH’ Come off your fucking ‘high horse’, bigboss. … and you wonder why you get deleted and it obviously hurts you like crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!

        Then another:- “That Jews vilified and demonized Germans in history and are doing it now to Muslims?” I don’t even think that Hitler EVER accused the Jews of ‘vilifying and demonizing’ Germany or Germans. Where do you rake up all this stuff? Most Jew hating is because of their success in business and perhaps the worst that could be said of them is that they tend to prefer their own … not particularly a Jewish trait. Your pal Trump is doing it and it’s called nepotism.
        Now yet another:- “Is Janov also who seems to have no guilt whatsoever about the suicides and ruined lives ” Janov nor anyone at the institute I REPEAT AND WILL CONTINUE TO REPEAT all the suicides were people that had been contemplating suicide loooooong before arriving at tht Institute. Primal therapy encouraged and invited (in the minds of those potential suicides) into the therapy since they were desperate about rising pain going on in their lives. You fail to take this factor into any form of consideration. You’ve seemingly got it fixed in your brain that you are the only one that is capable of knowing “The TRUTH”. I suggest it is yours and your co-conspirators ‘ONLY, Truth’

        Boy … you really “take the biscuit”

        Jack

  7. Miguel says:

    Hi , all Margaret and Phill
    Judith Martin is an American journalist and in the article she writes in the Atlantic https://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2017/02/alternative-virtues-for-the-trump-era/516498/?utm_source=twb
    She writes that manners, the values of new politicians like Donald Trump have changed. Donald Trump supporters likes what most people do not like of him, his performance
    The journalist says that they voted for him because he breaks the way. The same thing happens in Europe with Le Pen in France and in Europe. In that sense they are against the politically correct and we should ask why and not just in the US, but everywhere.

    I could guess the reason is because the world has changed. Reasons. Globalization, multiculturalism, etc.
    New values according the journalist.
    Authenticity (formerly Vulgarity)
    Frankness (formerly Discretion)
    Honesty (formerly Respect)
    Safety (formerly Due Process
    Open-mindedness (formerly Scholarship)
    Assertiveness (formerly Fairness)
    Humility (formerly Discernment)
    Forgiveness (formerly Reputation)
    Achievement (formerly Overcoming Obstacles
    Entertainment (formerly Setting an Example)
    Acting Out (formerly Acting Presidential)
    Miguel

    • Jack says:

      Miguel: I don’t feel (think/believe) any of that is what is happening is any of the things you mentioned.
      For sometime now I feel that we humans have begun to realize that a lot of our accepted notions about both ourselves and the way we are living, are out of sync.. It actually started IMO in the 19th century with a few political thinkers a la Carl Marx et al.

      Once the industrialization had taken place then a lot of the unintended consiqueses started to take place. We collectively were able to travel futher and faster and the mixing of the races and cultures and some of the dislocations of peoples, now began to take place. All this was followed by a lot of re-thinking. Prior to that there had been the colonization of other lands by (maily) Europeans and the British in particular.

      The Victorian era was re-pleat with a lot of misery and poverty. People were rushing into cities, causing over crowding and the distributive trades particularly in food were changing rapidly and the means to keep order started to rapidly getting chaotic. It culminated in the period of time that a British politician devised the police force (Robert Peel) to try and keep order or least-ways some semblance of it. It was so imperfect, but little realized and what was happening on the political front was we were trying to fix it as the old order began to crumble/teeter.

      I contend that the advent of Trump is a continuance of that same disruption. We are rapidly trying hard to fix things in a manner that defies fixing. We hate radical change so we try going round the edges keeping most of what already exists (because of the fear of what change might entail).

      So!!!!!!! as soon as some clown comes along that says he knows just how to fix it all (we, many of us feeling the need for change, providing that it is not too radical) Yet the nature of things are not what they were. We can now fly to the moon and now we think about colonizing some other planet … we are wondering if there is life on other solar systems, and wasting mental and physical energy on things that matter little to the living of life, at least in relative comfort.

      The great example I proffer … not that it is particularly my own idea, BUT the abolition of ‘money’ and the consequential result of that being the potential to rid us of neurosis once and for all, seems way too ridiculous for most to even contemplate … in any meaningful way.

      BUT, as I see it, all else, will facilitate our own doom IMO. As simple as that, I contend. However, I am aware that most will find even this comment of mine, ABSURD.

      So-be-it. Jack

  8. Margaret says:

    watching a documentary about agent orange, which is made of tcpd , the most poisonous kind of dioxine , of which millions of gallons were thrown over the Vietnames jungle as a defoliant.
    still now, 3 and 4 generations later, three times as much children with severe deformations are born in areas affected by that horrible product.
    they are really still war victims.
    there still are heavily contaminated areas where stocks have bene left and seeped into the drinking water.
    they now are showing some very severe examples which need operations, but do not have money.
    that is a disgrace. on top of it dioxine effects are hard to prove.
    apart of the human suffering, I find it hard to conceive how people can decide to use such a product as a weapon, destroying entire parts of a country and virtually killing all plant and animal life on it for decades and decades ..
    am not gonna keep watching, so depressing..
    a 77 year olf Vietnamese doctor tried to sue chemical companies but ran into huge obstacles to get somewhere.
    te reporter ended with a plea to the Us and the big chemical concerns to pay more attention to this problem .
    the Vietnamiese people interviewed were admirable, courageous, positive and with a lot of dignity and spirit.
    M

  9. Margaret says:

    Miguel,
    are you actually saying Trump and his voters stand for all these values??

    the Swedish , I think the prime minister but am not sure, tweeted that they wonder about what Trump had smoked, haha, to come up with the terrible event in Sweden, where actually everything was quiet and peaceful that day….
    M

  10. Phil says:

    Miguel, I think there is a wave of reaction going on in western countries among people hurt by globalization. Add those people to racists, people mad about conservative values violated and those just wanting a big change and it was enough for Trump to win the republican primary and then the general election. Similar things are happening in the UK with Brexit and in France etc. To me, some of the violation of political correctness is just the expression of anger.
    Unfortunately there are always going to be groups of people thinking they are being ignored and exploited by leaders and getting a bad deal. Some of their complaints are probably valid, in other cases they may just be angry, traumatized people. In this country Trump was able to channel this anger. It’s very unfortunate as he seems to have strong authoritative tendencies and is taking the country in a bad direction. He cares only about himself and wants the US, as a country on the world stage, to behave the same way. But the US has helped prevent WWIII from erupting in Europe and Asia because of overwhelming military and economic power. Trump, it seems to me, wants to be disruptive, with the helpful advice of his chief advisor Bannon, and this could lead to very damaging consequences. Not that everything is so wonderful right now, but take a look at history to see how bad things can be, and often were, repeatedly through the centuries.
    Phil

  11. Erron says:

    subscribing

  12. Leslie says:

    A song for Otto. Hope you are doing ok.
    L

  13. miguel says:

    Margaret, Jack and Phill

    “It is intended that we believe that no one agrees with political correctness, and yet everyone is truly terrified of who is behind” The structure of power, wherever you are “(Rush Limbaugh)
    imagine you have a young daughter , that has been raped several times and you go to the police station and the polices says to you that forget about it because a minority might get angry. That what has been happening in the UK for decades?Finally has been resolved. Crime against 1400 children.

    In Rotherham UK crime , abuse against Young girls of 11,12 were committed for decades and the authorities wwere afraid to do anything about for fear of a minority in Rotherham North England.
    Thaks to this journalist.

    ://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wgi4b1X2dd0

    • Jack says:

      Miguel: I did start to read the site you quoted but didn’t finish it since “political correctness” is a newly formed term, that keeps the so called, ‘order of things’ in some perceived set of order. It is just that order that I question.
      We live in an hierarchical social system and it is that very hierarchy that I would wish to see, disappear. No-one is any better nor deserving than anyone else. That I why I am an “Anarchist” One without hierarchy of any sort. It is this very hierarchy that is the root of ALL the problems we humans face that are man-made.

      The idea of Anarchy has been around for more than a century and to me unless and until we can dispose of all forms of hierarchy we’re doomed to extinction (and please … don’t bring up the living principle of bees … that is our human idea of their hierarchy … not necessary a hierarchy in the strict sense of what we humans accept).

      Margaret, in her reply, brings up the factor of “fairness” BUT what is and isn’t fairness? … it’s a judgment call. Who’s doing the ‘deciding’? It’s the very same with ethics and righteousness. Who decides all these matters? It is just here where I feel ‘DEMOCRACY’ is a farce. Even in the political arena we talk of decisions made by non party members but where are those non party member to be found??? they don’t exist, as I see it. We each and everyone one of us have our biases, idea and opinions … bases solely on our very own feelings … feelings invariably created in our very formative years … then they become “opinions” later in life, for which most of us are now totally unconscious of.

      Jack

  14. miguel says:

    Sexual violence in Rotherdham

    • Phil says:

      Miguel,
      In regards to these videos, I think the police should be enforcing the laws but, for example, not engage in racial profiling. Not unless everyone in those communities is committing the crimes, and I don’t think that’s ever the case. It’s a big and well known issue here in New York. Young black guys driving around get pulled over be the police, very often for no good reason. The person being pulled over might become justifiably angry, and the police take violent measures. Crime is possibly reduced, but racial tensions are inflamed, and the rights of innocent people are violated. That is police harassment and abuse of power, in my mind, and not a good approach to the crime problem.
      Phil

    • Sylvia says:

      Miguel, very powerful videos. do hope the Pakistani community can get control of their problems with their young men. They seem to be acknowledging it at this point and are willing to change and educate. There is an odd sense of community that the boys and men only choose white girls to groom rather than Pakistani-Asian because they fear repercussion from their own community.

      The other video of 12 and 13 year olds being victimized by the sex gangs, I also thought to be heart-wrenching. and shameful that the police waited so long to take any action,
      and not seeing it as a crime, but finally going from 3 officers working the cases to 74.

  15. Margaret says:

    Miguel,
    I know you mentioned your personal history influenced your reactions regarding political correctness etc.
    but political correctness as a general guideline that helps to avoid being carried away by prejudices can be very useful.
    I do not think it is a strict set of rules, more an incentive to reflect and look thoroughly at individual cases.
    which can then go in either way, condemning or not the actual behavior and person that is under scrutiny.
    that, to be conscient and honest and fair, is what political correctness stands for in the opinion of many, not closing one’s eyes for possible misbehaviour of minority members.
    it is as well an incentive not to go the other way so to say, of positive discrimination.
    it is sad some cases occur and are discovered and dealt with after crimes have happened, but to go from that to dismissing the whole notion of political correctness is a bridge too far in my opinion.
    correct is correct, not to close one’s eyes, but to be fair.
    and I don’t really think the Trump approach is very bothered with fair and equal treatment for all, but well, don’t want to go into this more really..
    M

  16. Renee S. says:

    Oh Patrick……I think you are writing to/about yourself again, not about the Jews or Gretchen. Your comments that, “You seem happier sticking with what you were told and of course what is CONVENIENT for you to believe”, “But I am getting used to this kind of ‘twisting’ typical hypocrisy”, “(You) bolster and ‘defend’ even past where it makes any sense”, “Judaism seems to be intimately tied up with ‘lying’ and ‘cruelty’ of all kinds”, “This is where it gets to your ‘character’ or lack of it and also while I am at it ‘lying’ and ‘cruelty’ “. Last time I wrote to you about this, you agreed with me and said you would write about it at a later date. Have you forgotten?

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – No I did not forget, it’s just more sometimes I feel I have already brought too much attention (mostly negative) on myself, also it felt a bit ‘egotistic’ to even refer back to it. But it did cross my mind several times ‘i never answered Renee back’ so sorry if that is the right word.

      What you are saying to me here is similar or the same as you said before so what’s my answer? The first thing that occurs to me is well if someone is ‘passionate’ about something and they verbalize it forcefully it’s quite like on some level they are ‘talking about themselves’ and I would plead ‘guilty’ to that I think it’s true the things that REALLY piss me off in the end are often about myself. I think I can be more ‘mad’ at myself than I can anyone else or again the things that really bug me are something so CLOSE to me that in effect it IS myself. So no need for me to take your examples line by line as I say I can plead ‘guilty’

      That though raises another point even IF it is about myself I don’t feel like second guessing myself too much like just express it and if it has some meaning for me it will come out in it’s own good time. Also I think this very thing crimps a lot of primallers style like thing of “i know it’s an old feeling etc etc” often seem to just stymie people and stop them from doing stuff or even just being themselves. Constant second guessing of oneself I don’t see as a positive. Anyway Renee I appreciate your thoughts and you have always struck me as a very thoughtful and intelligent woman…………….it would be nice to hear more from you. I am sure you have a lot to say and stuff that would be worth saying. It can’t be ‘worse’ than the feud between Jack and myself.. Hope to hear more from you.

  17. Otto Codingian says:

    I was feeling a little better until i saw my poor wife doing her usual financial mechanizations. Makes me sad. Probably an old feeling but i feel she is taking stuff away from me and it makes me hate her. Whatever.

  18. Otto Codingian says:

    I don’t feel horrible, but I do feel unsettled now that I see z’s money doings. Nothing major but she is just doing all the things she has for the past 40 years. She gets money (some reverse grant from a student loan), and begins buying little things to soothe herself. Whatever, she has done worse, it is just unnerving. She has a chance at getting a part-time job, but in my experience, as I just said , once she gets some money, she spends it with no thought. Even though I am an asshole, I am trying not to wish her to be eating cat food for her daily meal in a dingy apartment in the inner city when she is 80, once I have dropped dead from trying to carry her for so many years.

  19. Otto Codingian says:

    I had to go pick my brother up from the hospital and take him to his managed care facility yesterday. A long car ride and all i really care about is myself. I guess it was helpful to hear in group some weeks ago, someone said or yelled to a parent (figuratively), “It’s not always about you!”. I wish i had heard that many years ago. Brother is messed up, i don’t feel anything about it, how can i, his pain and my pain is too too much to imagine at this point.

  20. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I do not think that your reflecting on how so many of your comments about Gretchen or Judaism are really about yourself will bring you too much attention or negative attention. It is when you are lashing out and not reflecting that get you a lot of negative attention. Unfortunately, I just think you are very familiar with getting negative attention and feeling alone, angry and alienated. You say that, “it’s true the things that REALLY piss me off in the end are often about myself. I think I can be more ‘mad’ at myself than I can anyone else or again the things that really bug me are something so CLOSE to me that in effect it IS myself”. I found this to be an insightful comment…. it made me wonder if you can share how any of your comments about Gretchen and/or Judaism are really about yourself. I think that would help you be less mad at yourself and others. This is not about second-guessing yourself, it is about being able to take a step back and reflect. You say that, “if it has some meaning for me it will come out in it’s own good time”. Actually, I don’t think this is necessarily true. Often we need feedback from others to grow as we cannot see ourselves clearly.

  21. Otto Codingian says:

    One last thing before i go to sleep. I was able to emote loudly at group about the way life has abused me 9 million times, and life will gladly continue abusing me 9 million more times. Able to emote with the simple but right-on-the button magical words out of BB’s mouth. Images of recently deceased animal pals crossed my mind while yelling my guts out, and now my brother is sick. What i did not expect was near the end of my yelling i was taken back to where my uncle abused me once to the point of death, and then left me alone in my attic bedroom with only cardboard boxes to console me. Funny how this primal shit works out. My world view of being forever tormented came out of that one incident, although my uncle was abusive in lesser ways whenever i was with him. well, break out the stroganoff!

  22. Otto Codingian says:

    Leslie, beautiful powerful song and haunting images! Sad sad sad but hopeful too. Thank you! This one i will listen to a lot.

  23. Otto Codingian says:

    sylvia, vicky, the man and dog video. wow. sweet sweet music in the universe of love, kindness, and hope! ok, now i go to bed. tearfully.

  24. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    sounds like one hell of a ‘good’ group you had.
    liked all your comments.
    M

  25. Gretchen, I have a couple of new Institute patents for you. They’re from Russia. Do you pay for referrals?

    • Correction *patients (typing too fast)

      • Phil says:

        That is crazy! My palms were sweating watching that. No way I would even walk out on something like that.

        • Phil: You do see why sweaty palms would be the very last thing you’d want if you participate in such playful youthful indiscretions?

          • Phil says:

            Guru, I have a fear of heights which I can mostly control, but that adventure would be out of the question. Maybe I was held upside down as a newborn or something. Those people in the video have something else going on. Maybe it takes death being so close for them to feel alive?. Some type of near death experience during birth? What do you think? I’d prefer to play on some train tracks than to hang off a very tall building like that. What about you?

            • Phil: I was in a bit of a rush this morning, so I should have re-worded my question as, “…very last thing one would want if electing to participate…”. I already understood you didn’t want to do this, but I suppose I didn’t imply it well enough for you there.
              Now, as for those thrill-seekers? I have a few theories of my own considering the latent chemicals produced during the mortal terror of skydiving or perhaps a frighteningly desperate cry for attention and fame. I view experienced skydivers as people addicted to the experience & chemicals produced. All the possible scenarios in my mind lead up to my suggesting at least a brief visit with Gretchen.

              • Phil: I noticed your post below and I was busy yesterday and couldn’t respond right away. You may claim you’re having a feeling related to this (“blog being dead”, “expecting immediate response”, etc.), but frankly it’s not normal when communications are abruptly ended in an unexplained fashion. Give yourself credit for that, at least.
                Also, I see that I wrote in my post above “considering the latent chemicals produced during the mortal terror..,”. I definitely could have improved this statement to more scientifically rigorous standards, but the topic honestly doesn’t interest me that much anymore. Looting and pillaging every last nickel humanly possible from the US’s $95 trillion in household net worth? Now that sounds much more palatable to me!

  26. Margaret says:

    ha, gr, got an e-mail from the dating agency, subject ‘delay’…
    in the mail they explained they have a special arrangment for women in my age group, (59) as there seem to be a lot of females of that age and less males, or in other words less males interested in them, so they work with a much cheaper rate, as they can’t offer the usual montly date as most other age groups get.
    so they charge less for the annual fee, and add a sum per actual meeting.
    but they postpone the inscriptions alltogether momentarily for ladies of my age….
    and then , if ever, I would have an interview, they want to know if I’d be willing to meet with guys who live in another part of the country, and if not they would advice me not to get inscribed…
    in a way I appreciate they being honest, and they admit it must be unpleasant news, but well, we’lll wait and see, not counting on anything here really anymore.
    and this is only the age issue, ha, I had heard other agencies do the same, isn’t that awful?
    so it is not the disability as I haven’t even had the chance to mention it yet…

    sigh, after taking the step, kind of disconcerting..
    at least I managed to bring myself to stick out my neck..

    mom was ok today, went to see her, and we found out since last week she joins the group lunch instead of staying in her room, which is splendid news.
    ok, off to see the evening news now, M

  27. Phil says:

    It was a very slow day at work today and yesterday too. The doctors took a holiday and there were hardly any patients. They should have just closed the office instead of leaving us with little to do. I made myself do a few things I need to work on but was bored out of my mind, even with the internet to explore. No one to talk to today either.
    All of this helped trigger some feelings as I got home. The house was empty.
    “Mommy pay attention to me, look at me, talk to me, do something”. I got hardly anything from her; she was mostly dead just like at work today. Hopeless to get anything from her. So needy that I can’t even approach her, she made me dead too. I had to deaden all my feelings. It took the life out of me. If I hear and see myself taped, I hate it so much. I can see all that deadness. I don’t want to be like that.

    I could have gone to the gym but no one to meet up with there and I would have been working out on my own. Not energized to do that today.
    The blog feels dead too. But that’s how it can be, it’s a poor form of communications. I need to interact with people and have an immediate response. I’m no different. I don’t necessarily respond either, so it’s not a complaint, it has to do with this feeling.
    Today I was realizing how I struggle with this deadness and need for attention.

    • Larry says:

      Sounds like you are suffering.

      • Phil says:

        Larry, Yesterday was bad, hopefully today will be better. How are you doing?

      • Larry says:

        Just chugging along primally, Phil. Sometimes I’m scared of approaching retirement in April, sometimes I’m excited by the new possibilities it offers to experience life. Sometimes I feel so alone and how will I cope without the anchor of the workplace. Sometimes I can’t make myself go out to a dance practice or a dance. Sometimes I come home after work and cry, for several days in a row, alone, small, afraid, and adult, alone, afraid. Sometimes I finally make myself go to a social outing and it is such a relief to be enjoying myself with people, and it is so replete with good vibes and good hormones that I feel what a shame that I hold myself back socially. I’m thankful that I have the Unitarian community, and the ballroom dance community, and a couple of senior singles social groups, and my passion for photography and being in nature, and my enjoyment of exercise, to get me out of the house and exploring life and feeling good.

        I’m connecting more and more with the small child I was, feeling I am that child back there and at the same time now here I am a second later in the future approaching my old age, appreciating that by a miracle (primal therapy) I survived all that emptiness threatening to drive me crazy then. I’m opening more to feeling what I needed but never got from them then, recognizing and feeling that need still now, but close to letting it sink in that the need will never be met, no one else can fill it, the void will always be there and I just have to carry on anyway and try to fill my present needs distinct and separate from the past void that can never be filled for me.

        For some reason I want to post this Jimi Hendrix classic. I haven’t heard it in a long time. Listening to it in these times gives me shivers.

        • Erron says:

          I can definitely see a connection between Trumpian times and the message of this song, Larry.

        • Phil says:

          Larry,
          Great song, one of Hendrix’s best. I hope that things go well with your upcoming retirement; that it’s enjoyable and fulfilling. It sounds like you have a lot of social and personal interests to expand on when that happens. Early Spring is a nice time for that to be happening, with things warming up and nature coming back to life.
          Phil

        • Larry says:

          Erron and Phil, that song is a time machine. It takes me back to my late teenage years when I first heard it, back to who I was and how I felt and how I saw the world, how unknown the future was but I had a vague, broad idea of how I wanted mine to be. Now here I am well into that future, and the song is just as relevant today as then. The thing is, there is still my same core self trying to envision a future that would mean something to me, hoping I can guide myself into and make something worthwhile out of those broad strokes. Meanwhile, good luck or calamity wait on the doorstep.

          • Larry says:

            After writing that above, I went back to talk to my teenage self. I told him how it all turned out so far. I told him it was appropriate that he be afraid of the future, because he was weak and the going ahead was pretty rough unlike anything he was prepared for and came close to going very badly. I told him how lucky he held on to a core belief in himself and found the Primal Scream. I told him how eventually much went better than expected and against all odds we even found love. When I told him how we lost her we both cried. Although we struggle against it, we feel that our natural state is we are meant to be alone. He and I merged into me and I cried that I was alone through all the tough, precarious going through my life, my parents never there when I needed someone.

            • Erron says:

              Larry, that is so sad, but also bittersweet. I so relate to feelings of aloneness, it’s quite terrifying to me. Despite your feeling you are meant to be alone, I hope you find the love you seek.

              Erron

              • Phil says:

                Larry,
                I second what Erron said, and hope you don’t give up on finding love. I found what you wrote about talking to your teenage self moving. It pushed me into my feelings as I thought about my own experiences.
                Phil

            • Larry says:

              Erron, I wonder what is your story. If you care to tell us, why are you terrified of aloneness?

              • Erron says:

                Larry, I think it’s a layering of things.

                I often like being alone as an adult, but I can’t do it all the time. The thought of it makes my pulse rate rise.

                Below that, there’s my early history: 10 days after I was born my mother lost her breast milk, her ability to walk or even get out of bed, and her ability to take care of me. I was taken in by my paternal grandmother for the first three months of my life. Apart from a general sense of abandonment that I suppose that may lead to, I suspect there were many times I was left alone.

                And then stepping down one more level, I have had first level feelings of a massive, exhausting struggle (72 hour labour) followed by a defeat/resignation and the realisation “it’s too much, I can’t do it on my own”.

                It’s funny, but just recently, on my iPod I take to the gym, I counted the number of songs that talked about loneliness. It was an amazing percentage.

                Erron

                • Phil says:

                  Erron,
                  That’s a lot of terrible stuff in your history. That the thought of being alone can make your pulse rate rise, must be that very early stuff, I would think.

                  Phil

                • Larry says:

                  Thanks Erron. I feel I get what you mean. Our mothers are most critical to us when we are at our youngest and most vulnerable.

                  • Erron says:

                    Yes I could bang on about early stuff Larry. Born in the caul, “blue baby”, forceps delivery, rotated twice in the womb etc. etc. In the last, heated conversation I had with my mother before she basically told me she didn’t want to see me anymore, she made the comment “well at least I didn’t use parsley”. I couldn’t place the comment in context at the time, but later on learnt that parsley is an old wives abortifacient. It hit me like a truck when I discovered that.

                    So, your comment regarding the hurt done to us when we are at our youngest and most vulnerable, is very perceptive.

                    Think I need to go and feel some of this now…

                • Larry says:

                  Like Phil says, that’s a lot of terrible stuff in your history, Erron. I’m haunted by imagining how you felt in the scene where your mother referred to the parsley. It comes across that there never was much caring connection between you both. That would be very hard to live with, never mind on top of your difficult birth.

  28. Margaret says:

    thanks guys.
    I feel inside of me I could be a nice partner for someone, so it is good I feel like that about myself.
    on the other hand I feel more and more inclined to see it as most likely I will have to make the best of the rest of my life on my own.
    if women in general of my age are already refused ‘into the market’ in my case it is even harder , specially on first sight so to say, most people are turned off with some kind of disability.

    I do not give up hoping of course, but on the other hand I refuse to see it as a vital lack in my life.
    it is what it is and well, health and feeling ok about oneself and making the best of life as a single does not need to be all misery.

    and I always feel open to the possible occasion rising, and we have a saying that goes ‘hope gives life’..
    so no desperation here, not on this very moment at least.

    read in a book a brief part about a traumatized dog, had been thrown out of a car window as a puppy, broke a leg and was found starving etc., and had a hard time ever trusting people again.
    then one of the characters in the book pays patient and gentle attention to the dog, and slowly it starts to open up.
    it moved me to tears, and while writing this I feel it again.
    I think it has to do with the feelings about my ever distant dad, the continuous feeling of rejection, something being wrong with me, not being really lovable….
    the sad thing is that like the dog, the effect is of staying away, being cautious as not to get hurt.
    boy, I feel the sadness right there.
    M

  29. Margaret says:

    laid down on the couch right after finishing the last comment and immediately went into tiny baby wailing. after a while it slowly shifted to 3 year old kind of sadness.
    could feel how a continuous throat ache and tension in my neck are linked to (holding back) that kind of feeling.
    reassuring to know to have access, even while not going to the next retreat..
    already know I will want to go to the one next year’s summer, just for the fun of it, smiley.
    M

  30. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    in the meantime I found out there are specific, and free, sites for seniors.
    there a ‘ripe’ lady won’t have to be standing in the shadows of all those younger chicks at least.
    and senior starts at 50 or 55 or so, ha!
    so still more horizons to be explored!
    M

  31. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    haha!
    M

  32. Margaret says:

    phil,
    I really found it funny, had all kind of images crossing my imagination!
    M

  33. Otto Codingian says:

    MAN AND BEAST – Part 38, I probably posted it before. many kindnesses that touch me. some ahole ones too. doom. always think about it. tne nuclear blast that came from my uncle almost ending my life. he didnt have to do that. some people actually save lives, give lives. oh well

  34. Otto Codingian says:

    cry a bit about my deceased black cat. life can be good at times,loved that poor cat.

  35. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    Tears in heaven from Clapton on the radio just made me cry.
    the comment about you loving and missing your black cat crossed my mind, and of course also my own cat and the general sadness of loved ones lost.
    M

  36. Margaret says:

    it is a bit worrying the police just arrested a guy here, that spent his time internet dating, usually with false profiles, and then drugged the women with something in their drink, robbed them and raped them.
    19 victims are known already, but his phone showed he had contacts with about 230 women last year.
    his modus operandi became more violent so there might be deadly victims as well.
    the police asked women to come forward with their stories, promising discretion.
    but a lot of them have little memory of the circumstances due to the large doses of strong drugs, or of course feel very bad and possibly ashamed as well.

    it was a young guy..
    hope they lock him up for a long long time, the best option available these days.
    it is sad and scary to know people like that exist and anybody could run into them…

    suppose in a seniors dating group chances might be smaller but you never know..
    never accept a drink from a stranger..
    of course it is hard when they offer to go get something in a cafe, it is impossible to avoid all risks.
    M

  37. Margaret says:

    UG,
    that is another one I found it hard to believe of that he would be a rapist.
    I have seen his shows as my eyesight was still ok in those days, and it is hard to imagine why a handsome attractive guy like him would even think of that option.
    was it ever proved to be true?
    M

    • Margaret: I’m not totally sure. Apparently there were twenty or more women filing complaints against him, so I will largely go by what they claim as a group. However, I will add there is always a possibility of some of the women being “fortune seeker” types with false accusations. I don’t know how it could be proven so many years after the alleged occurrences. It’s not something I spent a lot of time studying.
      Where your personal fears are concerned, I believe that someone who would be so disgustingly low as to take advantage of sight-impaired people would be a rare enough individual for you not to worry too much over the possibility.

  38. Margaret says:

    well UG, you’d be surprised.
    once a guy tried to mug me right in front of my door.
    it was about midnight, silent street.
    he demanded my money and it pissed me off enormously.
    I told him I had 5 dollar , Euro, on me, but that I would not give them to him. I had about 50 on me but well, ha!
    he started trying to reach into my pockets and I started to push him away, and got more and more angry with him, especially as he managed to grab my cellphone out of my pocket. I cursed at him, telling him ‘congratulations, you robbed the phone of a blind woman, wow!! etc…’
    I made as much noise as possible and stood my ground, and he ended up running away, and it turned out that he had left the phone on the window sill…

    that was good to feel, that I reacted with anger and resistance and not with fear! of course if he would have pulled a knife I would have given him a few bills..

    another woman I know, almost blind, a bit older than me, was peacefully walking a street, with her white cane, when a young guy came up to her out of the blue and spit her in the face, just for the sake of being able to do so.
    that is a really terrible thing to do, so very very sick..
    so bad things do happen.
    M

    • Phil says:

      I think it’s at least partly that Trump doesn’t know how to be a leader and make public statements as expected and appropriately. He can’t seem to get it right even when prompted by the press. Needless to say, it might have been better to elect someone with good leadership qualities and experience.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote:- “.just because people are ‘saying’ it does not make it true”
      Just becasue Patrick is ‘saying’ it does not make it true.

      Jack

  39. Jo says:

    I am on Senior dating sites, and do feel it’s necessary to be very careful. Even so, I’m alarmed at a current U.K. news story of a well known woman author in her late fifties being murdered and dumped in a cess pit. The man stalked her profile on a berevement website for some time, months, and she’d been writing about her grief over losing her husband. It got to the point where she was planning their wedding, but he was planning her murder, for gain. That may be rare, and could happen in the real world also.
    But many of my age group are more isolated in this day and age, and without being in the working world, it’s not easy to see people regularly enough to really get to know them.
    From my experience, Margaret, your not missing out on much,(from the dating sites) in my opinion…. I know it feels bad to realise that there are less eligible men around than women.
    I’ve no prospects currently, and it’s looking pretty hopeless.

    • Larry says:

      Jo and Margaret, after a couple of years of bereavement I plucked up the courage to try some dating sites. I met a number of ladies through them. They were at first fun and inspired hope, but eventually by the same amount engendered disappointment and hopelessness. Getting to know someone through a dating site is a lot of emotional, time consuming work. I eventually decided I would be better off by putting my energy into meeting people through growing my life.

      There are several communities that I’m interested to be a part of and am putting my time and energy towards. I’m meeting and getting to know more people and getting more confident in myself through them. I’m growing way more at ease in women’s company than I used to be. There are a few whose company I enjoy not just in group outings but just the two of us one on one. So far though there is no one who I would let myself get romantically involved with and who I sense feels the same about me, but at least I’m feeling hopeful about and getting enjoyment from my social life, when I push myself to get out.

      I’ve seen that in this senior age group there are a lot more available women than there are men. I’ve also seen in the various kinds of social groups and community I participate in that there are a lot of good people having good social fun, and that helps me feel good and hopeful about finding someone special some day.

      I’ve not had a desire to go back and try the dating sites again, though I might give it another try in the future. They are kind of scary because you are meeting a stranger. People sound pretty nice in the email exchanges. Upon meeting them, I’ve had a couple of nice experiences, but more of them were not.

  40. Margaret says:

    Jo,
    thanks for the feedback.
    I look up against the hassle of setting up meeting with someone in a cafe etc.
    but I find I do enjoy talking to new men, not dates, like the different drivers from the special taxi company I am using recently.
    they are all volunteers who offer ‘taxi’ rides and some assistance to people with disabilities, charging much less than regular taxis.
    just having a conversation with them feels pleasant, but of course it is very easy as at the same time they help me out with commuting and there is no pressure.
    I have hardly any hopes but in a way it is also a luxury to be choosy haha, and to have a choice in some way..
    but of course I have had little to no experience with really dating, blind dating as I can’t make out anything of those tiny pictures on sites…

    will see what the future brings, and not make it too hard on myself..
    good luck to you , you never know!
    M

  41. Margaret says:

    heard on the news, our queen is visiting Laos, that America threw several millions of tons of bombs over Vietnam.
    30 percent did not explode, and specially the small ‘bombies’ size of an apple, are killing a lot of kids.
    president Obama had promised almost 100 million dollar to do some cleaning up, but chance exists Trump will cancel that decision.
    M

    • On a semi-relayed note, Margaret, the Red Cross is constantly asking me for more blood donations. It’s been particularly bad in recent months since they say, “The need for blood is constant and we’re urgently short on supplies.” Lots of mail and phone calls.

      Also, the Red Cross said one traffic collision victim can require potentially up to 100 units of blood. That’s really fucking daunting considering here in the US there can be millions of serious injuries each year from them. Perhaps tens of millions of injuries requiring blood here in the US ever since 9/11 coverage started saturating the land from sea to shining sea leaving defense contractors with cute, happy smiles on their faces.

      I wonder if executives and business owners who benefit the most financially from the risk of automotive V-Delta forces which can tear people limb from limb are receiving these phone calls from the Red Cross as I am?

  42. Otto Codingian says:

    I attended a graduation of sorts many years ago, and the speaker was eloquent, and was going on about things that we have seen for the very first time, and then there are those things that we see for the very last time. I remembered that line forever and was reminded again of it today, because i was thinking about how it feels like i have already have done real sex for the last time in my life. very sad about this, anything related to loss is probably because i lost my mom so early. but of course, it is sad to lose the joyous feelings i had when i was younger. nuff said, cant say it more simply than that, and i am sure i did not really convey how horrible that this feels.

  43. Jo says:

    Margaret, thanks…
    I have also had good conversations with taxi drivers, smiley..but on the flip side once, I was a captive audience to someone who needed to spout prolifically about politics when Brexit started!

    • Jo says:

      Also Margaret, it seems you are doing the right things for yourself in organising your life, it’s courageous to book a sailing holiday! Good luck to you.

  44. Jo says:

    Larry, you’ve nailed what’s needed to have a fulfilling social life, we’ve both found it really hard to get to this point in our different ways.
    For me, I have a few social opportunities, and when they happen I am not introverted, and enjoying myself,…. on the other hand, when I’m alone I am hurting a lot, and it feels way too long-drawn-out, and good times seem fleeting moments.. this is how it feels today.
    My feeling -“someone pleeeeeaaase love me..”

  45. Larry says:

    Last night at the Unitarian church I watched a free showing of Defying the Nazis, the Sharp’s War. They were a young married couple with young children who at great risk to their own lives answered the call and went to Europe a the outbreak of WWII to help rescue adults and children and spirit them to safety in the West.

    It is a timely film what with the wars, refugees, and rising tide of protectionism and isolationism happening right now. I found the film a mesmerizing look at the experience of WWII, conveying from a more personal angle the horror that people endured and fought against. I felt uncomfortable watching it, yet if felt important to see and know about those times.

    The war must have had a big impact on my parent’s generation, yet even though I was born shortly after it ended I hardly knew anything about it until I became a curious adult and looked into it. Watching other footage on youtube from WWII, thinking of the young people caught up in the events and the fight, makes me want to cry for them and the terror that befell their lives. I think I want to cry fear and helplessness over the very real and powerful dangerous forces that can threaten our lives. We are never immune.

    This probably stirs deeply embedded feelings in me from childhood of never feeling anchored and safe, anywhere. As well as exploring history and scary forces and social patterns rippling to the present, I’m posting this here to also bring forward for me feelings rooted in me long ago.

    • Larry: Unless they gave equal or more time to the traffic issue, I’d just leave the church building right away unless I was just there to socialize. There’s no point in my listening to it, personally, but that’s just from what I’ve seen and experienced.

    • Jo says:

      Larry, I don’t get why you would seek out horrifying films!

      • Jo: I did show that horrifying video of that young lady clinging for her life off an 80-story building, so I am guilty of doing this as well!
        Just so I am absolutely clear on this, when I said there’s no point in my watching what Larry posted, I am not denying those occurrences. There are ripple effects from events long ago in too many instances to mention throughout this jungle called “life”.

      • Larry says:

        First of all Jo, I don’t seek out horrifying films. Nor do I bury my head in the sand. I seek reality; that’s how my therapy works best for me.

        Secondly, the film I posted, narrated in parts by Tom Hanks, I find to be eye opening, mind expanding, profound, moving, both disturbing and in some ways beautiful. Immediately upon posting it I succumbed to crying about my life, feeling how afraid I am to be brave in my life, feeling estranged from my parents for all of my life as if like a refugee I was plopped down amongst them but they never got to know me and never let me know them, crying how alone and unsure I’ve always felt and always needed to hide it from everyone and myself, cowering from anything that risked exposing the truth, cowering from any risk of human contact.

        The evil presented in the film is matched by acts of incredible bravery by amazingly good people motivated solely by wanting to help fellow human beings in great time of need. They are inspiring, flawed, humble humanitarian people who I’m glad to have found out about.

        • Jo says:

          Fine…I made the comment because you sought out more from YouTube.

        • Larry says:

          Jo, in Canada I’m far removed from the reality of war. Since the country’s inception there has never been an act of war on Canadian soil. We are bounded on three sides by great oceans. Our only international border is called the friendliest in the world. We feel the safety of living in the shadow of our friend and the greatest military might that ever was. We are few, and enjoy the comfort of lots of space and the ease of living off the sale of our natural resouces, under the governance of a political system that most of the time looks out for the welfare of most of the people. It’s no wonder that Canada isn’t an aggressive nation. In many ways I live an enchanted life.

          In school I was taught very little about the world wars. I was shocked by what I began to find out in adulthood about the wars. I was incredulous that people could treat each other so horribly. Gradually I emerged from my naivete and became more appreciative of the tensions and dangers in the world and to not take my privileges for granted. Primal therapy gave me some insight into what can drive some people to be insensitive to others.

          For me, my personal growth includes understanding my history and world history. The other youtube videos I looked at today were listed right there beside the one about the Sharp’s. The ones I looked at today showed WWII from a perspective I had never seen before. I guess I feel that we need to understand the horrors of the past in order to be on guard against it happening again. Probably, being on European soil, reminders of WWII are much closer to home for you than it is for me.

          Also, a feeling was propelling me to delve into those videos, which eventually erupted into crying, much like listening to music videos or videos of puppies being saved does when I feel the pull to delve into them.

          • Larry: I am fully aware you are intentionally addressing Jo, but for what it’s worth I’m sure the production value of the documentary is very good and it serves its intended purpose well for its target audence. You wouldn’t have to justify to me why you’d want to watch it.

            I would decline to watch it and try to just leave the church not out of insensitivity towards others, but as a favor to myself.

          • Larry says:

            That’s fine UG. No one has to watch it. It’s there if anyone wants to. You should do what is best for you. Truth be told I went that evening mainly to socialize. I had a preconceived notion about the film and wasn’t that intrigued to see it. I didn’t expect to be so riveted by it. I feel I’ve grown from crying the feelings and truths about my own life that it brought up.

    • Patrick says:

      I havn’t watched it Larry not sure I could sit through one more movie showing how ‘bad’ the Germans supposedly were. I mean doesn’t this get tiring why never a movie about the atrocious and deliberate bombing of German CIVILIANS and cities and right from the start of the war as a deliberate policy!. Why not show THAT for a change? Also Larry you may be in danger of being ‘censored’ by Gretchen for ‘hate speech’ towards Germans this time. At least if she is in any way ‘fair’.Is she?

      • Larry says:

        I didn’t say anything hateful toward Germans, Patrick. I don’t feel anything hateful toward Germans. I don’t recall that the film propagated anything hateful toward German people. You are beating your own drum up your own blind alley again. I think the film is important to watch to be reminded that what happened then can happen again, anywhere, given similar stressors on a population and the wrong kind of people using the opportunity to grab the reins of power.

        • Larry says:

          Also, there are plenty of films on youtube alongside this one, some that I watched, that document the tragic destruction and devastation that befell German cities. It is profoundly disturbing to realize what we can do to each other, sobering to contemplate the stressors that lead to that breaking point, mesmerizing to consider there is no reason to think it couldn’t happen again.

          You truly do project your own limitations on other people Patrick, expecting of others the same narrow minded, selective focus that you practice.

          • Patrick says:

            And Germans ARE ‘demonized’ in most of these movies just as Muslims are nowadays in the so called “News”. Who is doing this and why? I don’t get the impression you seriously question these kind of things Larry. Your ‘wisdom’ tends towards the conventional

            • jackwaddington says:

              Patrick: I don’t see it, that Germans are demonized. If anything was demonized, it was Nazism. Yes, the Germans did elect Hitler into power and he led the Nazi Party. Just as Donald J. Trump is now leading his own version of conservatism, and that his version of it is not the American people. Hence all the major protest.

              Since, when I asked Fiona who I might remind her of, and you responded for her stating “Adolph Hitler”. I can only assume that you felt then, that Hitler and Nazism was the problem. Do you still hold that sentiment? Hopefully you will answer the question … unless in doing so, it becomes too inconvenient for your current responses here.

              What I find somewhat questionable about most of you arguments is:- that you veer ‘all over the lot’ and never gets down to being specific. On the Jewish question I asked if it was Judaism the religion, the Jewish culture, OR Israel and it’s government,. You didn’t reply. Equally on the questions of Germany and Arabs what specifically is it that causes your ‘beef’. Again you are not specific. Hence, my retort that you are a “crooked” thinker, a la Thouless. I gather you have still not read the book and I feel you never will. I have not the slightest idea as to why you didn’t. If indeed you have, it might be interesting (for me at least) if you were to tell me/us what your feelings, regarding “Straight and Crooked Thinking” are.

              It is my feeling that others on this blog feel similarly about you. It would appear you are very selective in what you listen to and read … yet insist that WE should be more open … to YOUR ideas and thinking.

              Jack

          • Larry says:

            You like playing with semantics to propel your agenda. Of course it has happened since, has happened over and over before, and is happening now. What are you really trying to get at. I don’t think you know.

          • Larry says:

            What select news do you follow? Open your mind to multiple sources. Try to get the overall picture. Where is the demonizing in the article I’m including? The only demonizing going on here is by you. I suggest you to stop hanging on to the apron strings of your cult leader and think for yourself.

            http://www.yadvashem.org/yv/en/exhibitions/besa/

  46. Margaret says:

    thanks Jo. I look forward to the sailing, easy as it is still a long while to go..
    but I had a very good experience with the style of assistance they gave a few years ago when I attended a group sailing trip. very reassuring, supportive, and a lot of fun and autonomy.

    I know not everyone is into or in a situation of being able to have pets, but I must say since I started having cats again in my life, I get a good deal of the ‘feeling loved’ and ‘loving’ satisfied.
    sure, not the same as a fellow human, but still, very reliable and brightening up every day and nigt.
    I like to stroke my cats upon waking up in the middle of the night, as they are usually near my feet on the corners of the bed.
    it makes the world a more welcoming place.
    and they love the affection and return it with all kinds of pleasure.
    dogs too can be a real boost and antidepressant, they make you go out for walks and I remember how simply watching them having a good time was making us good back then.
    my halfsister has a new pet, a kakariki, bird from New Zealand originally but born here, and he is a lot of fun as well, racing around and playing with everything, and wanting attention.
    he can fly, but prefers to run and climb.
    he is changing feathers now, and she gave me this dark green feather he lost, and of course I dropped it for my cats, so they could ‘catch’ it, boy, did they race around the appartment with that feather as a prey, haha, chasing each other.
    some day they will catch a mouse, like my former cat did about once a year, so they will get their instincts entertained.
    they have each other and me for playing, and stalking the pigeons on the balconee, chasing the odd fly or mosquito in summer, and they have a lot of fun, full bellies and dozens of soft warm spots to nap, like most felines a large part of day and night.
    yeah, right, I love them a lot..
    am smiling just thinking about them..
    M

  47. Jo says:

    Margaret, I know what you mean about having a pet…so much unconditional love from dogs (I’m a dog person). I weaned myself off having a pet, because I was going back and forth abroad so much, and I felt it unfair to keep handing her over to pet sitters. I get my “dog-fix” now and again from going up to owners and asking to pet their dogs, (more usually the dog will hurl itself towards me!). (That reminds me – a good way to get to talk to people!)
    I am also addicted to a u.k. daily reality TV program called “Supervet”.
    I’m glad you get so much from having your kitties … smiley

  48. Margaret says:

    as side information to the murder of the brother of the North Korean leader, in the airport of Kuala Lumpur if I’m right, we got to hear about this most toxic poison, a nerve gas in liquid form, of which a tiny drop is enough to almost instantly make one’s blood stop flowing , lungs stop breathing and other organs failing.
    that is already not pleasant to hear, but the next information was that it originally was developed as an insecticide, found a wee bit too strong, and then the American army got interested and produced millions of gallons of it.
    they claim they have destroyed most of it by now..
    what is most shocking to me is that military and other institutions come up with these atrocities, to produce and stash that kind of quantity of extreme deadly poison, to be used at some point, indiscriminatly killing all life around of where it would be used for god knows how long.
    that is so utterly crazy and sick and unacceptable!!
    and now Trump wants more nuclear weapons.
    the oceans are used as dumping places of al the chemical weapons of both world wars, now slowly coming to the point of their shells oxidating and the poison leaking out, most of the dumping spots being very near to shores, the Mediterranean and also right in front of our Belgian shorline, and huge amounts of it in the Baltic sea and similar spots.
    what must happen before humanity grows up and gets more responsible ?
    I can only hope we will one day do so and hope on other planets life forms do bettter than we.
    maybe it is a good thing the distances between stars and their planets are so huge, at least we cannot go spread our poison that far, so far..
    M and

  49. Margaret says:

    documentary about Alaska.
    the polar squirrel goes into a ‘stand by’ mode, and its temperature goes down until -3 degrees Celsius , which is below freezing.
    with a warmth camera you can see there is only a tiny spot between his shoulder blades a tiny bit warmer, and every now and then his thermostat turns on to make him shiver and make warm blood flow around. then he wakes up briefly, but only about in total 12 days during the entire winter.
    and the elks have such a long nose to warm up the air enough before it reaches their lungs.
    in the north there is no sunlight at all during 65 days.
    an ice bear can eat up to 65 kilos of meat in one go.
    I would not entirely satisfy his appetite, smiley.
    such beautiful creatures..
    wow, around new year, almost when the sun will start appearing again, the cold land air meets the wet ocean air on the south shores of Alaska, causing lots and lots of snow, up to 20 meters thick on some places…

    wow, and eagles and ravens and coyotes, woolfs and a lynx, blind on one eye, all gathering to try and get their share from a frozen carcass..
    ten there is Dead HOrse, small town miles north of the polar circle, oil drilling spot.
    red foxes folllowed the oil industry, they are twice as big as the little polar fox, but still the last one manages to steal some food there.they also follow incebears who can smell their prey from 20 miles of distance..
    then when spring is in the air, after 8 months of winter sleep regular bears wake up.
    guess they must be pretty hungry then , could probably eat me for breakfast as well….
    fabulous world of nature.
    M

  50. Margaret says:

    a bit later, now a documentary about Papoua.
    there is a lobster there with a widht of more than a meter, chasing all kind of animals on the beach, and when not lucky in his hunt, he climbs up a coconut tree to pick a coconut. he can easily open them up, would not want to be pinched by that one..

  51. Phil says:

    We’ve been experiencing very unusual weather here for February. It was 69 degrees F today and has been warm like that the last few days. Now we are having a thunderstorm. We were outside today doing some work and I could see buds starting to open on the trees, flowers sprouting, and frogs chirping. All things expected to happen in late March to early April. Very strange weather.
    It will surely freeze again in the coming days and snow is usually possible all through March and sometimes into April. I can still hope for another snow day off from work. Something to wish for.
    I’ve been posting some opinion comments on the Washington Post website. Not very satisfying as mostly there is little or no reaction to whatever I say. It is interesting for me to see the comments of other readers. For example, on the issue of policies for transgender students in the news there is such a division of opinions and feelings. Conservatives take the policies put forth to accommodate those students as such a threat. Mostly it is the parents and not necessarily other students in the schools who take offence. It just seems like it should be easy and simple to accommodate those transgender students as there are so few of them. Trump just reversed Obama administration”s directive on this.
    It seems to me that we are more and more divided as a country. To me, there is bad news every day. It’s discouraging.
    The very worst stories for me are the ones having to do with the environment. Those hit home for me more than a lot of other things. The Trump people would like to greatly reduce regulations for environmental protection. Some of that was already done. Apparently coal miners can go back to dumping their toxic waste in streams and rivers. They want to take away the endangered species regulations, etc,etc.
    For me it’s all terrible stuff, depressing, and disturbing and I try not to pay it too much attention as it’s all out of my control.
    I can only hope that this is all just a bump in the road and will pass,, but it’s hard not to be pessimistic. Trends were already bad and now they’ve gotten worse. Sorry for the gloom and doom. It also comes down to all the craziness. It’s taking so long for me to heal from my own traumas and get well, what hope can there be to heal everyone in the whole world? And that seems to be what is so badly needed.

    Phil

    • Larry says:

      Yes. The division is troubling. It’s looking like there will always be a lot of unhappy people, on one side or the other. It’s hard to imagine a coming together to solve the big world problems that need attention.

    • Larry says:

      Patrick I do appreciate your effort to have this actual dialogue to explain where you are coming from. I hear your points and have understood for years how your line of reasoning can link them and come to the views and conclusions that you do.

      It’s often easy enough for a clever person to draw lines through sufficient evidence to sway some people in support of a pet theory, such as for instance, that Paul McCarney is dead. I too get caught up in such thinking and conclusions that are at odds with the status quo. For instance, I’ve never had a flu shot, by conscious choice. It’s not that I’m wholeheartedly against vaccines. I’m glad that in grade 1 I was vaccinated for smallpox and polio. I want to get vaccinated for shingles. I know there is lots evidence pointing toward the benefits of the flu vaccine. But I also read some non-mainstream scientifically arrived at evidence and conclusions that the flu shot is not good for your immune system. What is a fully informed person to do?! To me it seems a strong possibility one or the other choice is a risk to my health. Each Fall I agonize over any new information and make a decision, so far not in favour of the shot, accepting I could be wrong at risk to my health. Similarly decades ago I read in non-mainstream sources that new research pointed to the benefit of eating eggs. That went against conventional wisdom, but on weighing the arguments and knowing that I might be putting my health at risk I started to eat eggs again like I used to as a kid. My cholesterol continues to always test good and these days eggs are mainstream promoted to be a healthy food. What I’m saying is that I know what it’s like to follow a line of evidence and come to a conclusion that the mainstream does not.

      I understand how evidence can be assembled that seems to point to the Jews being irritants at the root of a lot of civil and international strife and perhaps are striving to take hold of power in the West, or why some people conclude that Muslims are a terror and threat to the West. I mean, for example, superficially it’s obvious that aboriginal people are a weak, lazy drug addicted/alcoholic people and cause of their own suffering. But if that’s the best insight we have to understand the causes of our problems, people against people, then I fear humankind is doomed.

      From what I read and what I experience, I trust myself that there are much deeper insights and conclusions to arrive at than anything you’ve presented so far to explain the problems you have conjured up for us in the way that you have. I see that you don’t let your thinking go much below superficial. Just as an example, I perceive your vision to be shallow by the way you characterize the retreats. I experience and see life changing phenomena happening at retreats, that you don’t let yourself see, experience or understand. Ditto for much of the current events in your life that trouble you that you write about here.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Larry: In your first paragraph to Patrick, I feel this is an aspect of your empathy towards others.

        In you second paragraph there are two points. the first being:- there are two aspects as I see if for persuasion. The first is a genuine feeling to give some benefit that one has discovered, to another; the second is to persuade the other, that oneself is right.
        The other point is:- Most of our dealings with the medical profession are a “crap shoot” Just how much do we need to know to best serve ourselves. I figure we can never fully know. I too avoid flue shots

        I agree with your line of thinking in your third paragraph. It’s just that in the final analysis we have to make choices. I am reluctant to see things as either ‘true’ or ‘false’, right or wrong, ‘mainstream’ or ‘non mainstream’. I’d rather keep it to “I like” or “I don’t like”. I thus feel I am taking full responsibility unto myself for myself.

        I in no way feel Patrick is being superficial. I feel that he sees himself as a deep thinker, but his attempts at persuasion, are not for the benefit of others, but that there is an agenda behind them. Exactly what his agenda is; I do not know. I just feel that on this particular blog that it is misplaced. I feel also, mine are perhaps sometimes misplaced. I read his comments, but do wish he’d be more specific. As I have said repeatedly “I love blogging and I am, and always was an inveterate argumentative person.
        On Patrick’s feeling about retreats; I feel that he never got anything out of them, and thus he feels there is no benefit to be gained for anyone, as it’s all repeat, repeat, repeat, as he sees it. I see little wrong with repetition. For the most part, most of are repeating many, many thing, over and over again in our daily lives. IMO this carries through to his also not getting anything from Primal Therapy. That is sad.

        Jack

  52. Margaret says:

    just ran into an extract of Hitler ‘speeching’, and just a few seconds of that says it all.
    the culmination of hate speech in sound and words.
    Patrick, you sound like a badly broken record, I never used to delete messaages halfway but it gets so easy to delete yours after just a few lines, it actually feels healthy to do so.
    mentioning all kinds of other warcrimes does not make one huge warcrime ok.
    who are you trying to convince?
    M

  53. Patrick says:

    Margaret

    • Phil says:

      Patrick,
      I started writing several messages which I’ve deleted. Better for me to ask, why does everything always come back to these very same topics for you? They aren’t good ones for being able to connect with anyone here. A poor discussion is almost guaranteed, and that seems to be what you want. I don’t think anyone is likely to be convinced by your arguments or is even interested, except about getting you to stop.
      Better to have a discussion over something on which the basic facts are at least agreed upon.
      The same or similar question I’ve asked other times, but I feel like asking again.
      Phil

        • Phil says:

          Patrick,
          Facts that I agree on? Well, for example that terrorist events actually happened, and the people found to have done them, did do them.
          With that in mind it’s possible to talk about preventing terrorism, or staying safe etc. Also, how we feel about it.
          But no such discussion is possible if it is all thought to be some kind of staged conspiracy. If you want to discuss how you feel about staged conspiracies this probably isn’t the place to do it, because I don’t think anyone else here agrees on that. What you think goes strongly against settled facts. We would then be discussing a fantasy. Which is OK if it’s acknowledged to be a fantasy, but you aren’t doing that.
          Phil

        • Erron says:

          “Thinking about it I was bullied a lot at school in my ‘tender years’ but I don’t think it can be ‘reduced’ to that also. ”

          In one sentence you state your problem (I was bullied), your psychology (I’m a bully) and your defence: outright rejection of anything that threatens you (I feel small and bullied).

        • Larry says:

          I think you need to tell someone about the bad out there and for your sanity you need to tell it over and over so it has to be someone who won’t hear; and it has to be preposterous bad so that someone won’t hear, so that you can keep at it over and over and over. As you said, you need to.

          Fitting in is scary.

          It sounds like if we agreed with everything you said and everything was chummy it would freak you out.

  54. Otto Codingian says:

    here’s some army marching band music:

  55. Otto Codingian says:

    well i guess my kids must have watched that show when they were young. makes me sad of course, time flew by, bills to pay, me unknowingly acting out from military school pains from my childhood. afraid of people from that experience, and other earlier ones, passing that crap onto my kids. not sure if i got relief yesterday from yelling about that military school. Anti-depressant, diabetes, years of suppression might tone down the relief i felt in 85 when i started PT. my organs are most likely getting some relief, well, i am not feeling the ecstasy yet. there is a scream hiding behind my yells, hope the PI neighborhood can stand it.

    • Otto: I was just discussing this with a friend over the phone today. Many times life is just going to feel like hell and then you simply go back to the same “neutral” state as what occurred before the discomfort started with no feeling of reward at the end of the ugly rainbow. This suckassery is a part of life and I think this frustrates & discourages many people. This idea where one will feel ecstasy upon the conclusion of temporary discomfort has been an alluring promise for too many people. It just doesn’t always happen and it’s not realistic to expect it to happen that way.

      I hope you don’t think I am lecturing you here. Your post just reminded me of needing to say that.

  56. Otto Codingian says:

    why i so weepy watching oscars? they got their dreams? so much good feeling among all? no idea. dont usually watch oscars.

  57. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    I am not talking about Winston Churchill, but about Hitler and the hate that is so encompassing when you hear him.
    It is hard to believe you say you don’t know much about his speeches, it must be fairly easy for you to find extracts of them, and as I say, just listen to him , it does not take long to get the message.
    and stick to this topic in your answers if possible.
    M

  58. Margaret says:

    saw such a sad documentary about Rumania.
    in the time of Ceaucescu, who built a large palace for himself, anticonception and abortion were prohibited. many people were so extremely poor that a lot of kids simply ended up on the streets.
    in winter the only place where they would not freeze to death were the sewers, where at least pipes with hot water were running along some walls.
    so these young kids looked for shelter in the sewer system, and some of them even ended up having their own kids there.
    nowadays there still is no social security for elderly people, who also end up on the streets, but cannot go down into the sewer system and have to try to survive on the streets , often with no more than an old wet matress they have to drag along with them all day to keep it.
    many of them die during the freezing winters.
    it is so sad, imagine being in their position, specially the people without kids to look after them are completely left over to help they don’t get as there are so many of them all over Bukarest.

    at least that was what the documentary makers showed, asking for donations to at least give them some warm sleeping bags etc as there are too many to provide homes for them.
    Rumania is part of the European union, I am shocked that still goes on there and seems not to be adressed properly while so many other more trivial matters get attention.
    M

  59. Patrick says:

    Speaking of ‘tender years’ I like this song……………….

  60. Margaret says:

    Patrick, you are completely wrong about my views on allies and what went on in world war II and I see no good sides really in any of the war participants , at least not in their leaders who all have their own agendas.
    but that is completely beside my point, as I said.
    once more you avoid to go into the very simple point I made, if you would bother to listen to a part of a speech of Hitler, you could not possibly deny the incredible amount of hate, rage and sheer insanity he expresses.
    youcertainly must have the sources to find some of his spitting speeches, and if you don’t bother to ‘investigate’ it shows to me there is an inconvenient truth there you want to avoid adressing.

    and basically it is not even about Hitler and certainly not about other politicians, it is about a very clear emotional background in this case of Adolf.

    the context is not the issue in what I talked about, you might be completely right about all you mentioned about Churchill, but that is another matter alltogether.

    and by the way, Belgium was invaded without any warrancy by the Germans, not even a declaration of war, simply troops rolling in and shooting if meeting any defenses.
    my own dad was sleeping in his trenches when a German soldier kicked him in the side and he was taken to Germany for years of forced labour.
    all of that before the allies got mixed into things.
    M

  61. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    very well spoken.

    makes one wonder why these desperate struggles to lure us into a distorted view of the world and reality.
    M

  62. At least your not anti semitic lol

  63. Daniel says:

    Guru: I consider it a loss that your words didn’t make it to the finishing line. I too hate that and therefore will never write again on an iPad and make sure to save anything beyond a few sentences to a computer document first.
    Perhaps the chance will come again, I’d like that.

  64. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    I am being serious about thinking it might be useful for you to listen to Hitler speaking.
    apart from Hitler and his state of mind and feelings, and the context, I also wonder if it might resonate with you, the mere sound of him, regardless of what he says.

    I have heard some of your anger coming to the surface in some group, and I wonder if it could help you to just listen to the sound of Hitler to focus on what would come up for you, what you might want to say and express, like using it like a song or music sort of..

    just an idea, I am a hopeless optimistic always looking for ways to go in a useful direction.

    I assure you listening to him is definitely an experience.

    M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – I did as you said and maybe this makes me look ‘bad’ but I did not find much objectionable in Hitler’s speeches. I am sure there are many but the ones I watched seemed ok to me. There is one people can view (I don’t want to put a link here as Gretchen might freak out!) given at the time of the start of the war with the US which if I may say so sounds quite brilliant and VERY prescient of the kind of stuff the US does to THIS VERY DAY. Haven’t changed their spots at all. Hitler could have been predicting Vietnam, Yugoslavia, Iraq, Libya and SO many others. He saw the essence of the imperialism of money and weapons………………right to this very day, today Trump announces big increases in military spending, it never ends has been going on for 70 years now but still not ‘safe’ still need more weapons……………

  65. Daniel says:

    Not surprisingly, almost none of the people that reject the Jewish Holocaust as a fact is an actual historian; Fred Leuchter who produced a pseudoscientific report which analyzed samples from the Auschwitz gas chambers is neither a chemist nor an engineer; practically none of those who reject vaccines is an actual epidemiologist; and almost none of those who reject global warming or chemtrails is an actual weather scientist.

    Lets take those who claim to understand history. Not being versed in how historical evidence is gathered and analyzed, and usually not sophisticated enough to even hide their prior political agenda, they just opine and make all facts bow to their opinions. Now, how is history collected and reviewed? (I actually had to go back to my high school notes for this).

    People always wrote history, but it wasn’t until the 19th century that it began to be studied professionally thanks, mostly, to the German historian Leopold von Ranke. In his preface to his History of the Latin and Germanic nations 1494-1514 Ranke lays down the foundations of the discipline:

    “The basis of the present work, the sources of its material, are memoires, diaries, letters, diplomatic reports, and original narratives of eyewitnesses; other writings were used only if they were immediately derived from the above mentioned or seemed to equal them because of some original information”.

    In other words, Ranke insists that a historical analysis must be based first and foremost on primary sources – what’s been written or recorded or witnessed at the time under study.

    Toward the end of the 19th century two French historians summarized and systemized the new method of historical investigation. Charles Langois and Charles Seignobos defined six stages of the historian’s job and described the general rules according to which each stage of the study should be carried out. The stages were: 1) Gathering the sources; 2) external criticism of the sources (verify their authenticity); 3) internal criticism of the sources (find their meaning); 4) discovering the facts based on the sources; 5) Synthesizing the facts (make interpretations); 6) writing the synthesis.

    You wouldn’t be surprised that these principles are at the core of every investigative work, be it journalistic or legal in nature.

    And, following these principles, the historian must study history impartially, or at least practice the intellectual integrity when facts don’t match up to his or her preconceived ideas. It is crucial to separate the facts from their analysis. For example, one may find the fact that Jews have been expelled from a certain town or country, or that 5 Israelis in a van (or Arabs) were seen dancing and later detained on 9/11; but if you want to reach the conclusion that Jews were ousted due to some collective wrongdoing, or that Israelis were involved in 9/11, you would need to get more evidence to substantiate such a claim.

    Habitually, those who find Jews or Israelis always responsible for the ills of this world never come up with those facts, and in their pain and anger just make facts up or deliberately take some facts out of context or extract preconceived meaning out of practically nothing.

    This goes even for the very basic facts. For example, Patrick has been repeating in this blog the Mossad motto as further “proof” Israel is involved in practically everything bad. This is obviously not his idea but something he and other “free thinking” and “open minded” Jew-haters borrow from each other. According to them these are the clues that the NY times or WAPO or CNN should be investigating.

    Putting aside the fact that a motto proves nothing there is still one little problem: it’s not the Mossad motto. The motto is a biblical verse from Proverbs XI:14, and is translated in the King James bible as: “Where no counsel is, the people fall, but in the multitude of counselors there is safety”. Perhaps these haters are referring to an older motto which is also from the book of proverbs (XXIV:6) translated, again from King James Bible, as “For by wise counsel thou shalt make thy war: and in multitude of counsellors there is safety”.

    This is about the easiest information one can find. Anyone interested in finding that information can get it within 5 minutes or less and go through the entire investigative process: surf to the Mossad website and find the motto and exact verse from the bible which it is (find primary source and verify it’s authenticity-’external criticism’), and then surf to the online King James (or any other) bible and find the exact meaning of the verse (discern it’s true meaning-‘internal criticism’).

    Now, if you can’t make it even through the very first stages your final analysis is sure to be extremely distorted and miles away from truth.

    One can likewise quote Churchill as saying, for example,

    “The war wasn’t only about abolishing fascism, but to conquer sales markets. We could have, if we had intended so, prevented this war from breaking out without doing one shot, but we didn’t want to.” — Winston Churchill to Truman (Fultun, USA March 1946)

    Or saying that,

    “Germany’s unforgivable crime before WW2 was its attempt to loosen its economy out of the world trade system and to build up an independent exchange system from which the world-finance couldn’t profit anymore. …We butchered the wrong pig.” — Winston Churchill (The Second World War – Bern, 1960)

    .
    We can find the exact same quotes, ellipsis, misspelling and mistakes included, in many pro-Nazi postings on various websites so we know they just copy and paste from each other. The only place we can’t find them is in Churchill’s actual books The Second World War, nor in his actual speech in Fulton (not Fultun), Missouri in 1946.

    So again, this kind of history taking is yet to pass even the first test of verifying the source’s authenticity so there is absolutely no value to any conclusions based on it.

    And the same goes for Trump or Bannon being Israeli ‘assets’, or Israel being a “helhole… a society where rights and freedoms are greatly restricted, police are little more than an armed gang, drugs of all kinds proliferate, violence, usually involving gunfire is commonplace, pornography, homosexuality, transgenderism”, or terrorist attacks never happening, or Rudolf Höss’ testicles being crushed, or Nazi Germany honoring their agreements, etc.

    As Gary Kasparov recently observed, “if you can convince people that real news is fake, it becomes much easier to convince them that your fake news is real”. I’s say this is true in the personal sphere as well: if you can convince yourself that real news is fake, it becomes much easier to convince yourself that your own fake news is real.

  66. Margaret says:

    wow Daniel, great comment.
    M

  67. This is one example of a review on “Veterans Today”, in others they are specifically referred to as anti- Semitic and neo Nazis. This is a favorite site of many of the deniers and conspiracy theorists too often posted here.

    VeteransToday.com has a sizable following, as many fake websites do. VeteransToday routinely re-prints articles from Pravda, a former Soviet owned mouthpiece, and the Iranian PressTV. Both Pravda and PressTV print so much fake news that they can not be taken seriously.

    The owner of VeteransToday.com openly admits that a large portion of the website are fake stories or real stories with fake elements. The worst part about VeteransToday is they use the motto “turn off the fake news.” When questioned about fake articles, Senior Editor Gordon Duff has an outlandish excuse. He says he has to publish fake articles or the government would kill him for his real ones.

    There is a growing problem with fake news sites that prey on the right-wing. The most notorious is NationalPost.net, which is being run to embarrass conservatives. Someone with a career in conservative media has told this webmaster that NationalPost.net received start-up funding from a Soros Group. I am investigating the claim.

    Other sites like AmericanNews.com are “click bait.” They take real stories and add a fake picture or fake element. The purpose of “click bait” sites is to get viral social media sharing and then profit off of advertising. When you share a story on social media, check the source. Do not contribute to the viral sharing of these sites. Tell the person that it is a fake site.

    • Erron says:

      Considering the overwhelming importance of the Internet to our modern world, I think it’s way past time that international governments came together to do something about sites like this, and spam as well. Whatever happened to Internet 3? I thought it was going to come along and have some kind of quality control that prevented this.

      • Patrick says:

        Erron – it’s interesting

        • Erron says:

          Patrick:

          1) don’t use my comments as a weapon in your personal fight with Gretchen. Her name did not need to be brought into it. You could have said “what you’re saying is the same as condemning Hitler for censorship”. Your dragging Gretchen’s name into the conversation betrays once more your bully boy attitude.

          2) it’s not about censorship, it’s about getting people to take personal responsibility for what they do online. Stop being such a tragic “it’s all cool man, everything goes” hippie. This goes beyond mere fake news. There are many, many people being hurt and even killed because aspects of the Internet are way out of control. Anyway, that’s my opinion, as someone who has been involved with the web since its embryonic forms in the late 80s.

          • Patrick says:

            Chill out Erron. I do not have a ‘personal fight’ with Gretchen and no ‘weapons’ are being used. Of course this ‘censorship’ issue goes both ways but I see serious moves to clamp down on the kind of independent voices on the internet. Trump of course has made this ‘fake news’ thing into a caricature just like Lyin Ted and Crooked Hillary that the kind of stuff he does. But to me this ‘fake news’ thing is a real problem and honestly I see the biggest problem is with the CNN, NBC, NY Times, Guardian etc.They are trying to spin this to where the problem is with the ‘independents’ but they were caught out badly during the election but it’s something some people have been aware of for quite a while.But I don’t necessarily see the ‘good guys’ winning this fight the trend unfortunately is for more ‘control’ and more ‘propaganda’ And professors will continue to be fired for not thinking the approved way And it seems they just want more of this……………not a happy outlook for the future imo

    • Linda says:

      Thank you for the heads up on these web sites

  68. And…. since you are so interested in truth and freedom of speech your hero said ” its not truth that matters but victory” and ” we have to put an end to the idea that it is everyone’s civil right to say whatever they please” hitler . Good luck with the spin! G.

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen your whole thing about “Veteran’s Today” is obviously just some copy and paste job. I don’t believe everything I read there…………….far from it but I do find it interesting and useful. Several of the guys there are ‘ex intelligence’ people so they like plots and have a tendency ( think to kind of inflate their own importance. All that said I check it quite a bit and I like some more than others. Kevin Barrett & Jonas Alexis like more than most of the others. Gretchen you should know that finding something on the internet and copying and pasting it proves NOTHING! I could easily find some ‘hatchet job’ on PT…so what!

      Your ‘quotes’ from Hitler if that is what it is are unconvincing. The second one you seem to endorse yourself anyway? So I don’t really know what your point is or even if you have one. The first quote maybe sounds bad buy you need to understand the context of the time or any time actually……………does ‘truth’ matter if it has no effect I think that is what he was driving at. Gretchen your cheap shots are getting old at least to me you seem to feel you are on such high and moral ground to me that is far from the truth. But ignorance can be bliss!

  69. Fred Leuchter was brought up on charges of representing himself as an engineer when he was in fact not licensed or educated as an engineer . He later admitted to having a BA in History and no training in toxicology , Biology or Chemistry. No Patrick it was not a cut and paste job. There are twenty articles saying the same thing about Veterans Today. See for yourself. But why would you quote a publication that has an owner that admits most of his stories are fake? Just to keep it real I think it’s important to note that you are unable to actually refute anything that Daniel has said. Nor did you answer Renee. At least not that I’m aware of. Lastly, don’t make the mistake of believing that an unconvential thought is a true thought. Unconventiality is evidence of nothing just as a convential thought can’t be pointed to as proof of anything. There are better ways to fact find . G.

  70. Patrick says:

    Gretchen

  71. Yes but when the head person admits to printing disinformation I think we might assume it’s true geez, not really a stretch . Just as Fred Leuchter admitted making up his qualifications but whatever. “I don’t know know any imaginable way you can get information…First of all…Because, about 30%, based on what I believe…and you know what? Who says I’m right? According to my belief, and I have as good of, uh access to information as anyone in the world, probably, anyone I know of. About 30% of what’s written on Veterans Today, is patently false. About 40% of what I write, is at least purposely, partially false, because if I didn’t write false information I wouldn’t be alive. I simply have to do that. I write…anything I write I write between the lines.” Duff

  72. Margaret says:

    Patrick,
    and what about his later speeches, does he still sound sane there?
    M

    • Patrick says:

      No I havn’t Margaret but I would say if your whole country is going up in flames around you, most everything is being bombed there are plots to assassinate you and you face certain death you might not sound so ‘sane’ either. You freaked out pretty good I remember about that little hoax in Brussels around this time last year.Where is your ’empathy’?

  73. Margaret says:

    I am starting to feel Patrick gets too much attention here.
    the discussion does not seem to lead anywhere for him and he uses the forum to spout more of his ‘views’.

    of course it does trigger my own feeling of ‘what about me’, but in this context of the blog it is more an issue of ‘what about all the others?’
    more and more he manages to engage everyone and I remember how someone once gave a warning about that, him being very good at engaging people over and over agin while they were trying to draw a line.

    just saying, I miss hearing about other people, am sick and tired of these repetitive confrontations with someone that does not even want to find common ground.
    if he has to stick around maybe we should all try to ignore him once more, at least it will take up less space and less frustrating attempts for reason and common sense.

    we all see the huge flaws in his logic and theories, and he does not want to acknowledge them. so be it.
    let’s move on to something more prodductive please?

    M

  74. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    I agree. What Patrick writes is a constant irritation which is hard to ignore. I’m guilty of engaging in these useless arguments as well. Useless, because there will be no resolution. The same points are repeated over and over again. Maybe all this serves to prop Patrick up and to keep him going, but it’s sad.
    Phil

    • Phil says:

      Because Patrick is seemingly unable to see or admit that some sources of information are much more reliable than others, this whole discussion is a waste of time. The website links he’s shared over many months are mostly worthless garbage.
      We could rub his nose in it and he still wouldn’t get it.

  75. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    smiley, that is a very plastic and very accurate way to describe things!
    M

  76. jackwaddington says:

    Reading the blog these last few days; little has inspired me to write anything. However, what it has done to me has gotten me a thinking about the state of dialog between people especially on this blog. I find it interesting that Margaret is asking Patrick to listen to some of the speeches of Hitler which I feel are more akin to rantings rather than speeches per se. Comparatively I also see that I have the same effect on Patrick … to bring out his rantings, especially towards me. He doesn’t quite do that with most others, though he does come close sometime with Margaret and Gretchen. Sad to say, I was the one that introduced him, (Patrick) to computing and through me his entering this blog.
    Quote: ” but they were caught out badly during the election”.
    I don’t think that is so. What gave Trump the election was more than 270 electoral collage votes. The real voter, ‘the people’ were totally ignored. The minority voters won because of a quirk in the written constitution: as I see it, in order to give those initial 13 states some say in electing a president. Had they not done so there might never have been a union.
    The majority vote (popular vote) was given to Hilary Clinton. I agree “not a happy outlook for the future”
    As for asking Erron to “chill out” … that’s rich …How about you Patrick, chilling out!!!!!!!!

    My Jimbo can go off into rants also when he gets upset, but only with me. With others I see him holding that in check; except for some exceptions with a couple of neighbors. What that causes within me, is to consider if I have, or had this kind of ranting in myself. On reflection I feel I don’t, but is that because the ranting in me is repressed? Possibly! I do agree with Margaret and Patrick, Churchill was a ‘war monger’, but I don’t remember that Churchill indulged in ‘ranting’. He took the Premiership after Chamberlain’s signed agreement with Hitler that he would not invade Poland … then did.

    I also feel that Donald Trump could, or is, a huge ranter. What I feel Trump does for his followers is appeals to their inner rants. From my very limited experience of psychology I can only assume that ‘ranting’ is something of rising feelings in early childhood from unutterable anger at the child’s frustrations … with it’s parents. In this sense, I feel it is understandable. All this brings me back to my ‘pet’ theory.
    I sure spend a lot of time contemplating it. I wish I knew how to be convincing.

    So! That is what is occupying me for the moment.

    Jack

  77. Margaret says:

    Jack,
    exactly my point.
    Hitler works himself up to a state of spitting rage, true ranting, full of hate , resentment etc.
    and it is not true that that only occurred in the latter stages of the war, but hey, that piece of ‘knowledge’ came from a kind of ex-intelligence source, an old non-veteran.
    M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret and Jack,
      I remember reading that Hitler would tend to go off on a rant like that even in small groups or one on one encounters, more like monologues than meaningful communication.
      It’s very important to prevent people like him from gaining political power. Trump is another example, hopefully less extreme.

      • jackwaddington says:

        I hope you are correct about Trump, BUT give him time and if the Republican House and Senate go along with him; then I think he’ll be off to the races.

        The tragedy for Germany was that he got elected into the Chancellery. It was then he took off … even though Mein Kampf was written before … as a prelude to appease the Germans after losing WWI.

        This is where the best of ‘politicizing goes astray … how ever well intentioned … IMO

        Jack

  78. Margaret says:

    tonight is a program on one of our tv channels interviewing for the first time some victims from last years attacks. some extracts were already shown in the news, and it is very moving, both people showing their emotion and being very dignified , people who have lost a leg, or a had a colleague who lost her life.

    Patricks comments are really below my standaards now to respond to, crazy, mean and just not worth a reply anymore.

    and hey, today me and sister visited my mom on our weekly visit, and there was a ‘carnaval’ party, all the employes disguised and goodies to eat and drink, cheerful life music etc.

    my 86 year old mom was ‘the star of the dance floor’, haha, really!
    first we joined the polonaise, a long row of people holding shoulders or hips of the one before them and having a good time moving around.
    then some lady came to get my mom for a dance, and my sister, and then my mom took my hand and pulled me along to the dance floor, and we had a very good time doing some mix of slow rock ‘n roll and a rude lambada, haha!
    more dancing, she on her own, and then the three of us, my sister filmed a lot of it but for some reason did not manage to send the videos yet, despite having been able to put them on her facebook account.

    it was so nice to witness my mom having such a good time, and to actually dance with her.
    back in her room she repeated how she liked living there, until the time we had to leave and she needed a bit of reassuring , which was easy when some employee made her feel she was not on her own there.
    it is such a great place, too bad she will already have forgotten about the dancing, but we’ll show her the videos next week and a lot of people there will adress her about her dancing.
    so a very nice afternoon, out of the blue.
    the songs kept ear worming in my and my sisters heads to the point of making us crack up as she kept singing one song and I kept singing another one at the same time.
    good memories to cherish…
    M

  79. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    I agree Trump also seems to contain this kind of poisonous trait, especially when running into people disagreeing with him.
    nasty seems a word that fits him well, mean, devious, dishonest, and in some way stupid as it is so very clear, except maybe for people who carry the same mindset or who are triggered for their own personal reasons to believe he is really planning to help them.
    sad for them and sad for the environment.
    M

  80. jackwaddington says:

    Once again, when trying to post this I get “duplicate copy” Yet when I look for it I can’t see it anywhere. If I’ve just missed it sorry for the duplicate
    ==================================
    Reading the blog these last few days; little has inspired me to write anything. However, what it has done to me has gotten me a thinking about the state of dialog between people especially on this blog. I find it interesting that Margaret is asking Patrick to listen to some of the speeches of Hitler which I feel are more akin to rantings rather than speeches per se. Comparatively I also see that I have the same effect on Patrick … to bring out his rantings, especially towards me. He doesn’t quite do that with most others, though he does come close sometime with Margaret and Gretchen. Sad to say, I was the one that introduced him, (Patrick) to computing and through me his entering this blog.
    Quote: ” but they were caught out badly during the election”.
    I don’t think that is so. What gave Trump the election was more than 270 electoral collage votes. The real voter, ‘the people’ were totally ignored. The minority voters won because of a quirk in the written constitution: as I see it, in order to give those initial 13 states some say in electing a president. Had they not done so there might never have been a union.
    The majority vote (popular vote) was given to Hilary Clinton. I agree “not a happy outlook for the future”
    As for asking Erron to “chill out” … that’s rich …How about you Patrick, chilling out!!!!!!!!

    My Jimbo can go off into rants also when he gets upset, but only with me. With others I see him holding that in check; except for some exceptions with a couple of neighbors. What that causes within me, is to consider if I have, or had this kind of ranting in myself. On reflection I feel I don’t, but is that because the ranting in me is repressed? Possibly! I do agree with Margaret and Patrick, Churchill was a ‘war monger’, but I don’t remember that Churchill indulged in ‘ranting’. He took the Premiership after Chamberlain’s signed agreement with Hitler that he would not invade Poland … then did.

    I also feel that Donald Trump could, or is, a huge ranter. What I feel Trump does for his followers is appeals to their inner rants. From my very limited experience of psychology I can only assume that ‘ranting’ is something of rising feelings in early childhood from unutterable anger at the child’s frustrations … with it’s parents. In this sense, I feel it is understandable. All this brings me back to my ‘pet’ theory.
    I sure spend a lot of time contemplating it. I wish I knew how to be convincing.

    So! That is what is occupying me for the moment.

    Jack

  81. jackwaddington says:

    Sorry guys: It is a repeat.

    Jack

  82. Leslie says:

    The thing that gets me the most is that Gretchen just recommended – & that is a highly professional and experienced opinion – that you Patrick stay away from your Conspiracy & Hateful rhetoric for a month and wow – look @ that…
    Cannot be done – in fact it revs you up.
    Don’t bother spewing your gibberish of how your higher level brain will not follow orders or what is it – ah yes conventional thinking.
    You can’t do it – because it is all you have. Simple and sad.

    • Larry says:

      Leslie, I suspect Patrick can’t give it up anymore than an alcoholic can give up alcohol…without help that is. It seems to me that he’ll always be needing to warn and argue with us about some wrong or evil, getting some short term discharge of his internal tension each time he tries. We are a perfect audience for his purpose because we don’t go along with him, so over and over he can try to get through to us discharging his tension for a while each time he tries. Stumbling upon the Jewish argument was a stroke of good luck for him, because he gets maximum bang for his effort with it and probably will use it for many more cycles. Whatever the topic, he finds ways to repeats the same pattern of being antagonistic and controversial, over and over and over. He is a prisoner to it.

      • Erron says:

        You nailed it, Larry. It’s the most irritating aspect about Patrick, the fact that he’s not in any way sincere, but just using everyone on this forum as character pieces in his own private play. It’s why I am so antagonistic towards him personally, as I despise the use of innocent people in this manner. But then, what can you expect from a Nazi lover?

        • Larry says:

          But he is sincere, Erron. He is succumbing to his inner demons just like we all do, until we become aware and release the pain driving us, I think.

          • Erron says:

            Okay, point taken. Letting my anger get the better of me again…

            • Erron says:

              One last point, Larry. Anger aside, you describe an epiphany – becoming aware and releasing our inner pain – that I believe Patrick is incapable of. It’s just too easy for him to indulge in his never-ending masturbatory act out of dumping on people. Well, okay, with some people it’s hard to put my anger aside 😉

              • Larry says:

                I think you are right, Erron. He is incapable of seeing anything wrong in his thinking or behaviour or has no conscience; maybe they mean the same thing. And we are his perfect victim. He loves it here.

      • Leslie says:

        I agree completely Larry. Having suffered an addiction I know the draw & the continuous loop – but thankfully found my way back to sanity with Gretchen,Barry and Primal Therapy. Its with their guidance & support that I could live, love and trust while feeling so much of what I needed to.
        L

  83. Sylvia says:

    Speaking of a ranting Hitler, and being a little bored with Trumps speech now, I decided to look up the “Hitler in primal therapy video” on youtube. You all have probably seen it before but it’s still funny to me. It is a movie about Hitler in German language and over-subtitled with English where he is consulting with his generals.
    He is ranting about being in therapy. The actor says: “This Primal workshop is a nightmare–you have no idea….it’s the horrible truth….all I discovered is that childhood is an irreversible trauma and that my parents treated me like shit….they just used me.”

      • Sylvia says:

        I’ve never seen a person change so much according to their blogs of a couple of years back. Much preferred the Kruse/EMF days, though. Wonder what will happening a couple of yrs. from now.

        • Patrick says:

          Well Sylvia I suppose we all have out own different ‘journeys’. I don’t second guess mine so much it more a matter of just following the road/instincts. Where it goes not really up to me or my ‘conscious’ mind. You may not have minded the Kruse/EMF days but there were some here who did very much starting with the FOSSIL

    • Larry says:

      Sounds like that was a rough retreat, Sylvia. 🙂

  84. Miguel says:

    Patrick:
    I would like you answer me those few questions
    1. Why (not how) do you think people rant and have hate speech?
    2.- How old were you when you first began ranting and having hate speech? Why do you think was then and not a few years before or later?
    3.-What do people get from ranting and having hate speech, what are the advantages of all that?
    4.- Some people who become calmer after ranting or using hate speech get bad or even worse. When that happens why do you think it happens?

    Miguel

    • Patrick says:

      Miguel – I don’t like the ‘tone’ of your questions. Sounds supercilious and condescending so don’t feel like answering right now at least. Plus you never answered my question which I asked you several times…………

    • jackwaddington says:

      Miguel: These questions you asked Patrick that seemingly he does not want to answer, I thought they were very good questions and very helpful. So! I decided to answer them for MYSELF. From the get-go, (needless to say), I am NOT speaking for Patrick.

      1. Why (not how) do you think people rant and have hate speech?
      The only thing I feel is that either I have, or would rant and rave under the most frustrating of circumstances. How I might do it I have no idea … right now.
      What I do see is when my Jimbo rants and raves it is because of his unutterable frustrations, either with me or about something. I feel strongly that in his case he was very frustrated in his childhood with both parents.

      2.- How old were you when you first began ranting and having hate speech? Why do you think was then and not a few years before or later?
      Since I cannot recollect being that frustrated, especially with my father, which in my case brought on more hurt, rather than frustration. I do feel however, that ranting and raving is due to very strong frustrations. However, to repeat, I am in no position to speak for anyone else.

      3.-What do people get from ranting and having hate speech, what are the advantages of all that?
      I see it, being reflective of myself, that if I do, it is an act-out and actually would achieve little or nothing. I feel, in my own case, I need to OWN my feelings, and thus in expressing them to know only that if I do so, I get resolution. BUT it is an ongoing process even though I feel that others might see it as repetitive.

      4.- Some people who become calmer after ranting or using hate speech get bad or even worse. When that happens why do you think it happens?
      In my case, I am not sure I would feel better. The frustrations would remain. What I would try to do was to sit with the frustrating circumstances. I learned some time ago that blaming it in something or someone does not resolve it. It’s me that has to change. The thing or person that triggered it; is something that I can do nothing about.

      I feel good about having answered these questions you proposed Miguel. It got me a-thinking about them and what I feel were excellent questions.

      Jack

  85. Patrick says:

    It’s

  86. Miguel says:

    Patrick
    Patrick
    I thought these questions might help you by answering them

    About what you asked me . If I can remember. Yes I like the state of Israel , it is a good place to live because it is the only democracy in the area, human rights are respected, freedom is respected and it is the only place where Arab people can believe in what they consider it is better for them without fear of anything as long as they do not hurt anybody.

    Miguel

  87. Jo says:

    Patrick, Leslie has a point, you are unable to take Gretchen’s suggestion, which was solely to help you, and that you are spewing rhetoric… all the long-drawn-out focus on global instead of personal (for me, this is why it is so unutterably boring). Here’s one example..Do you ‘look for answers’ by throwing it all out here? Why wonder what “everyone” does when they are lied to, when it sounds like you deep down feel betrayed?
    And – it’s really uncalled for to rudely insult Jack. (or anyone)

  88. Phil says:

    To change the subject a little here, yesterday I got to what felt like some important feelings.
    After work I didn’t leave but drove to the big parking lot of the building across the street, just so my co-workers wouldn’t notice me sitting in my car. I started to play some music to see if that would help with feelings, and it was starting to, but a security guard came around and asked “was I waiting for someone, it’s private property.” I said “Ok” but
    that really pissed me off.
    So I drove away while playing some music and the feelings did come up. Anger at my father and sadness, that he made fun of me for being fearful and weak. Maybe that security guard helped a little with anger, “fuck you with your private property”.
    I wanted my mommy, but that wasn’t possible, she was sick and unavailable for me. Several incidents came to mind around this from childhood. Also explaining why I mostly felt my father useless for me, not helpful. Better to hide things from him. It seems like there’ll be a lot more to uncover about my father.
    Phil

  89. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    thanks for sharing that.
    it does sound like new pieces falling into place.
    way to go.
    M

  90. Hey Larry, I too think you have brought up some relevant points and I have had similar thoughts many times. But interestingly just today I have been thinking about the line one draws between personal responsibility and excusing behavior because the person involved has suffered. I’m not sure ( though I have a tendency to excuse most things because I see suffering) I can do that any longer or that it even serves those involved. This is the question! When I respond to Patrick, more often than not, it’s not for Patrick. I speak for those I know are hurt by his comments , to make clear this view is not supported by the Institute and to indicate I will not be silent when faced with discrimination and hate speech against any group. While I’m not sure I believe Patrick really cares about any of this ( in other words if it wasn’t this it would be something else) still it’s pretty despicable in my opinion. Evidence of this lies in how little actual knowledge he has on the subject. If I wanted to go on and on about a subject you can bet I would be educated on all sides of that subject. Yet Patrick has told us he doesn’t choose to read or consider differeinng views. Additionally he runs from the debate. When someone arrives with a clear understanding of history or bias he will never address what they actually say ( as in the case of Daniel or Renee both quite knowledgeable on the subject of either the Holocaust or discrimination in general) but instead begins to try to disarm them with compliments while avoiding actually addressing their remarks. At the same time while discussing how he comes on the blog because he prefers to be around those who disagree. This is in fact step three in my view. Step two is only surrounding yourself with people who agree. The other thing I see and have mentioned is confirmation bias. The tendency to look for confirmation of our beliefs no matter how off the wall they might be. As an aside this is the part of me that is sympathetic to Patrick as this behavior would be one of my worst fears. That you see yourself as an authority on all things while knowing nothing. That people are seeing that kind of crazy behavior and they know it and you know it but you just can’t stop. I will post this so I don’t lose it but there’s more I want to say. Gretch

  91. Ok … confirmation bias. Erron touched on this issue and it’s something I have been doing some reading about. I don’t think we know yet in what ways the internet has not only impacted our views but in fact has allowed us to stay cemented in certain views . Today we can have any thought, take five minutes to google it and find someone else who feels the same. It’s a constant confirmation that the real Paul was replaced by a fake Paul into eternity. For some people that can clearly spell danger. If it was human nature to type into google ” tell me why I’m wrong” well, maybe it might be a different story but that is not how most of us work. Anyway as I read Patrick’s defense of Hitler today I suddenly felt is there really any excuse for this? I do understand what brings people to this point but at the same time does it matter? This is a person who called for a master race. This is a person who passed laws to insure Jews, Homosexuals, Gypsies, the disabled and others would be shunned and eventually killed. This is so contrary to all I believe or frankly any kind of human empathy or kindness well, it’s beyond me. This is Patrick’s hero. This is so sick, a call for a master race, you either were blonde and blue eyed or frankly unworthy. We have patients at the Institute whose parents or Grandparents were Holocaust survivors. Just the other day someone told me they remember hearing their parents wake in the night from horrifying nightmares of their time in the camps yet Patrick actually described the camps as resorts. I truly don’t understand and can’t excuse this behavior. It is just too outrageous. At some point do we not need to look at our behavior and make some decisions about who we want to be in this life? Should we not ask am I abusive, bullying, arrogant, name calling and hateful and then answer those questions truthfully? I think we have to. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I could say many things but let’s keep it short. First off Hitler is not my ‘hero’ However you day he called for a ‘master race’. That is debatealbe actually but what is very clear is Orthodox Judaism believes Judaics to BE a master race.They variously believe ‘gentiles’ to be animals, beasts, donkeys, cows etc etc. If any doubt about this and the real world consequences read any of Michael Hoffman’s books.

  92. Leslie says:

    And for those who can’t – lines have to be drawn.
    Even in Canada we have laws about hate speech.
    Patrick cannot, will not, and does not even see a need to reflect & get help.
    That he then has to use us and truly abuse us – as so many have talked about – is despicable.
    Enough already.
    L

  93. Larry says:

    Gretchen and everyone, I think if Patrick is driven to take outrageous, controversial, combative stances with us because for him unconsciously it serves the purpose of relieving his inner tensions at least for the short term, and we do fill that purpose superbly because in no way will we agree with his nonsense stances so we become the perfect non-ending struggle for him, and if he isn’t going to make any effort to try to get help, then I think the only sane option all round is that he be barred if possible from this blog, for his sake and for ours. Otherwise we are just letting ourselves be abused by him while he gets relief doing it, forever, which doesn’t seem like a healthy relationship for any of us, Patrick included.

    • Erron says:

      Well, I’m not an ex-patient of the institute, so it’s hard for me to know what everyone feels about Patrick, who is an ex-patient. But I have to agree completely with what you say Larry.

  94. Otto Codingian says:

    As for Herr Hitler, there are too many unknowns to say, as to why he was such a shit. Maybe a bad birth. You cannot really see what kind of childhood he had without having seen it yourself. I think he was in the war, which can seriously derange someone. I am always interested in how people can become sadistic murderers. The times Mr. Hitler lived in, the culture, the shit that the Allies put the Germans through for World War I, many things cause this type of insanity. Apparently Mr. Trump and his right-wing advisor Bannon have brought the extreme haters out of the closet. Haters are really just extremely frightened damaged people. Maybe we are all a species of such tendencies. I don’t really care about what I just said, it does not give me goosebumps or any reward at all, and i think what i said is meaningless. I should play with the dog, but no one played much with me, just left me on my own a lot, watching tv or reading comic books, alone, alone, alone. oh well. many people came to my job this week on an important project, and i found myself wanting them to know how smart and special i was. blah blah blah. i am bored shitless.

    • Larry says:

      “Maybe we are all a species of such tendencies.”….but you didn’t go that way, Otto. A lot of frightened damaged people don’t become extreme haters but despite all that went against them try their best to put a decent life together.

    • Erron says:

      I remember reading a book by Alice Miller (I think) who went into detail on Hitler’s childhood. A nightmare of daily brutal beatings is my memory of it. At the time I felt it explained a lot about him.

        • Alice Miller’s “Drama of the Gifted Child” was the last book I read in 1994 leading me up to Janov’s books.

          I assume this is the same Alice Miller being discussed here. Interestingly enough, she mentioned a different way of facing trauma because she felt Janov had too much of a cult’ish setup with people being addicted to the clinics.

          I don’t remember Miller’s words exactly on this matter. I would have to re-visit that book as it’s been 23 years since I read it.

          • OOooooh, if only I knew and understood then what I know now. Geez!

          • jackwaddington says:

            Guru: I would love it if you would tell us/me what Alice Miller wrote with respect to:- “she mentioned a different way of facing trauma because …… ”
            I suppose I could look it up myself, but perhaps too lazy.

            Yes, I do think it’s the same Alice Miller, and I too read the her book, but I was not sufficiently impressed to take in all she said. What I did gather was she heard about Primal Therapy from a Primal patient, and took all he said and then made, as you suggested, that comment about Janov. If she indeed did, I feel it was some sort of ‘sour grapes’; she be a psychotherapist herself.

            Jack

            • Erron says:

              I believe she did or at least looked into ‘therapy’ with Stettbacher, who fraudulently claimed to have discovered primal therapy in the 80’s. She abandoned him when it came out he’d been abusing patients, agan, this is from memory. That warped her whole idea of primal.

  95. Otto Codingian says:

    Sylvia, interesting video, but not very funny to me.Needs some fart jokes. ha!

  96. Otto Codingian says:

    ok i said i was bored and that i should be playing with the poor bored dog, but this is ridiculous!

    • Sylvia says:

      Yikes, Otto. So much blood from the scratches and bites from those big cats gave me the chills. Even male house cats though, I know will bite if they are not neutered. Guess the experts really must know what they are doing to tame the big cats. Seems like the cats were ganging up on the ‘visitors’. They weren’t as sociable as the wolves. Have fun playing with your tame bored doggie.

  97. Phil says:

    I am orgoing to try to comment again on all of this, Hitler, Nazis, Jews, etc, and ask Patrick a question, but I’m feeling it all useless. I can tolerate him on the blog despite all of this if it’s
    truly a benefit for him. Maybe no one else will listen like we do to the same stuff over and over,
    and yet disagree.

    Patrick, I know you’ve said you do your personal ruminating privately. That is the important stuff,
    not what you are showing us here. It’s all pointless even if you are right. No matter how much you study the situation, attend meetings, or join groups, you won’t save the world from the Jews.
    You might even be breaking the law doing those things, depending on the location. I don’t think that anything good will come out of this for you. You aren’t getting closer to the truth.

    I find for myself that getting overly activated on world issues isn’t healthy. That is energy that should be going to my personal sphere. I may attend a few protests and I’ve signed online petitions etc etc, but that’s all I can do. Trump is not in my personal sphere and the country’s issues are not under my control. I’m supposing that Hitler and the elite Jews controlling the world are not in your personal sphere, and hopefully not dominating your thoughts. But I wouldn’t be able to tell from what you write here. Why waste your time with all of this?

    • Patrick says:

      I appreciate your ‘vote’ Phil. At least you are not part of the “Greek Chorus” maybe I will ‘survive’……………….

  98. Phil says:

    Patrick,
    So you do feel a benefit from commenting here? What is it? What about everything else I said and the question I asked at the end of my last post?

    • Patrick says:

      Phil – i would say I get a ‘benefit’ from writing here, I mean why else would I be doing it? I can see people would or might question that but overall and people have said a lot of things, I can see kind of where each person is coming from but at the same time it’s my feeling (only me?) that my ‘behavior’ or whatever is not really a problem. I am talking about whatever concerns me at any given time. I value the blog for that and have always told Gretchen I think it’s a very good thing she has provided. She has surprise surprise allowed or given a kind of ‘free expression’ situation for people in primal. My own experience at the PI itself did not feel that ‘free’ this feels better to me. It was kind of amazing I came on here by ‘accident’ long after I had regretfully taken my leave of primal and felt strangly at home here> Maybe I am then like the visitor who never left even thought people wanted him to leave. And even to this day many times I have felt ‘that’s it I am through with this now” but I dunno I keep coming back so I must appreciate it. There is something magical to just sit down even just say and just say or blurt out what I want to. Phil has often asked and my answer it still kind of the same……………..I don’t want to be on any kind of ‘single issue’ blog just ‘agreeing’ with a bunch of ‘agreers’ or facebook and stuff like that does not appeal to me either too much forced pleasantry for me so it always seems to come back to here.

      Coming back to this thing of seeing me here as a ‘problem’ it just not see or feel that way to me. Now of course people are telling me I am so I ‘should’ listen, should I? maybe not I listened all my life to other people and not so much to myself, if I had really listened to myself more I would have been better off. This place is also a ‘testing ground’ CAN I talk about my ideas etc, can I ‘shape’ what is happening to me in some kind of ‘normal’ society. And primal in general is ‘normal’ maybe too normal if anything. Too conventional but everywhere is conventional every place has it’s taboos, it’s standards and so on. I have always craved a place WITHOUT those things and I find it almost daily at the creek mostly by myself or here talking to people here still by myself. So anyway rambling a bit here and thanks for the question Phil it always feels you have a good intention and that counts for something or a lot

      • Patrick says:

        I heard this on the radio yesterday, an amazing song a ‘pawn in their game’ I always thought it was a ‘pawn in the game” but not it’s ‘their’ game…………………..who are they? and who am I?

      • Phil says:

        Patrick,
        I’m glad you find a benefit writing here. I do too. It was maybe a stupid question because, as you say, why would you continue otherwise. Thanks for this long answer,

        • Patrick says:

          What do they say at all those ‘seminars’………..there is no ‘stupid question’ and I think that is true. I have found over time that often the ‘stupid’ question is often the best question. .

        • Larry says:

          OK Phil. He’s yours. You deal with him from now on.

          • Sylvia says:

            Yes Phil, and while you are at it, ask Patrick what he would want to say to his father in a therapeutic setting. (as in ‘tell your father’ what you want to say to him.) That might get some of the anger out where it belongs.

          • Phil says:

            Larry,
            It’s up to Gretchen to decide, but I’ve had some thoughts on it. The way this forum is set up anyone can come here and comment; so it’s rather loosely tied to the PI. How can the PI be seen condoning what people say? Maybe a disclaimer of some kind should be added or a further separation of the blog from the PI. This is besides the issue of how this stuff makes people feel and effects their experiences using the blog.
            On the yahoo primal support group, which has become inactive, members can be put on moderated status, meaning their posts wouldn’t go through without review. A very useful too.
            What I have seen is that most people find censoring or moderation intolerable and eventually decide to leave the group on their own.
            Or maybe we just have to continually speak out against what we think is wrong.

            Banning someone is maybe a severe rejection or abandonment. Especially of a past patient, maybe different if a random person showed up and started writing all this stuff.
            Thinking on it reminds me of my childhood abandonment experiences.

            Phil

            • Margaret says:

              Sylvia,
              ‘what would you want to say to your mom?’ would be useful too probably.

              Phil,
              what I like so much about the guidelines of the support group is they also pay attention to the style of communicating.
              and that they don’t ban rightaway but give a warning and then a time out period .
              that seems a useful way, like putting someone on parole, like here are the rules, you do not insult and try to hurt people simply for not agreeing, and if you keep doing so you’ll be barred for a month.
              then the choice stil exists, if the person wants to lash out badly enough he can still do so, but with a cool off period of a month as a price for unacceptable behaviour.
              it is not restricting anyone from expressing their feelings or anger or whatever, simply setting guidelines not to act out and dump on peopple out of the blue, just for the sake of it.
              M

          • Larry says:

            Being nice and not rejecting all and sundry who come here doesn’t cut it Phil. He drains his tension by abusing people here over and over. He finds benefit from writing here alright. We are sick to just roll over and let him keep up the abuse. It’s sick to let hate speech and abuse of other people go on and on. It’s unhealthy for Patrick to keep on in that abusive, caustic rut. No website, no facebook account, no blog will stand by and let a troll go on and on being abusive and corrosive. It’s especially egregious to let it go on and on in this a blog underpinned by the theme of psychological healing. In Primal Therapy we learn that the way to healing is through stopping our act outs. After more than 4 years on the blog Patrick has never shown any indication of wanting to stop his. He doesn’t acknowledge his illness. On the contrary, he disdains the healing approach. The benefit he gets from writing here is that he gets to go on with his caustic act out. This is a caring, supportive group, but I don’t want to see us use that as an excuse to be a doormat. We tried hard and long to help. He is unreachable. He hurts people. I’m surprised that you condone that Phil. I can’t.

            • Phil says:

              Larry,
              I’m not condoning anything and it’s not under my control. We can roll over, stand on our heads, or jump up and down, but it’s up to Gretchen to decide. Maybe you should direct all this to her. Or Patrick.
              Phil

              • Larry says:

                Patrick and Gretchen can read this I’m sure. There is no point in my directing this to Patrick because he has superbly demonstrated he is unreachable so I’m reacting accordingly and giving up on him. There is no point in my directing this to Gretchen because she has thought about the Patrick issue inside and out over and over I’m sure, and will handle it however she sees fit irregardless of what I say. I’m just saying I’m fully behind Patrick being banned if possible, should it come to that, for the good of everyone including Patrick. That seems to me the healthy approach.

              • Larry says:

                He deftly sidestepped your question in your recent comment to him. Your question was. ” I’m supposing that Hitler and the elite Jews controlling the world are not in your personal sphere, and hopefully not dominating your thoughts. But I wouldn’t be able to tell from what you write here. Why waste your time with all of this?

                • Phil says:

                  Larry,
                  I wanted to add to the discussion from yesterday and I did that. But otherwise this issue isn’t activating me that much anymore. It’s a continuous thing. Maybe I’ve become better at ignoring it. In the end it’s really Patrick’s issues, not mine, and Gretchen’s problem to deal with, if she sees it that way.
                  Why are you more upset about this today as compared to last week, last month, or last year. I have my owns things going on. A bunch of big feelings came up again this morning.

                • Phil says:

                  Larry,
                  I mostly already know his answer to this question and shouldn’t have asked again. He sees these things as important, they are on his mind, and that’s why he writes about them. I believe he’s said it does feel like it impacts him in a personal way, and it doesn’t feel like a waste of time. Also, in primal we are wasting our time on an excessively personal focus and past feelings and should open our eyes about the world.
                  There is a certain consistency coming from him.

                • Larry says:

                  I’ve never condoned his behaviour, Phil. The way he treats people has upset me from the very first group I was in with him where I witnessed for the first time his vituperative treatment of people. I have until now held on to the hope that he could eventually be reached and helped. But struggling, arguing with him seems to only feed him. He seems to become more and more entrenched in his opprobrious ideas, thanks perhaps to our enabling him. Over time it has become eminently clear to me that the only way to reach and help him is to ban him from this blog, for his own good.

            • Erron says:

              God you write well, Larry.

            • Larry says:

              Thank you Erron. It’s just truth as I see it pouring out of me. I’m normally uncomfortable taking a stance against anyone and there was a time when I wouldn’t.

              I’m discovering how much working at my place of employment diverts me from my life problems. Today and tomorrow I have the work day off. Throughout today I’ve been crying. That I will be retiring in a couple of months is one of the drivers of the upwelling feelings. Listless, I stumbled upon watching the best of America’s Got Talent on youtube and the flood gates opened, again and again. What got me was watching unrecognized talent achieving their dream and pouring their heart out in a song, with full throated feeling, to the awe and rapture of the judges and audience. And in the wings usually was their mother or family looking on, proudly and with tears in their eyes, obviously full of love and support for their child/family member performing on stage. I cried in recognition of what I need, felt the vacuum of what I don’t have and what I never had as a child, and came to clearer insight how to survive I withdrew from human connection that I wasn’t getting. It was so hard, overwhelming until the Primal Scream gave me hope, to make my life on my own. So hard to be alone.

              I invited a female friend to a movie with me tomorrow. I’ll be at a dance with the singles social group on Saturday. I’ll be the elf at church on Sunday. On Monday a friend will fly in for a conference and we’ll have dinner together. So I’m not isolating myself. But I’m always fighting a deathly aloneness in me. I tire of it.

              • Erron says:

                Larry, my wish is that you don’t have to endure aloneness forever. Besides, you’re obviously too nice a guy to be wasted like that 😉

                Erron

      • jackwaddington says:

        Patrick: a quote from this last comment I feel is worth quoting. “CAN I talk about my ideas etc, can I ‘shape’ what is happening to me in some kind of ‘normal’ society.”
        Yes, you obviously can and do, BUT this is primarilly a feeling blog. It would more interesting, especially to me, if you would write about your feelings, rather than your ideas.

        Not sure if that makes sence to you, bit I sincely hope so.

        Jack

  99. Miguel says:

    Thank you Jack for your sincerity and for sharing your feelings and life circunstances.

    Obese people,smokers, drinkers, drug addicts etc. are getting a short-term benefit from psychoactive substances. At the same time they are postponing the underlying or unconscious problem. Besides, they are not only bad habits, they also show that these people are deeply damaged.

    Obviously, the same is true for people who use hate speech. In the short run they get an excitement, an attention they need to repeat compulsively over and over again to calm their anxiety, frustration, anger. That is the gain. But it is a toxic gain that further deepens the dissociation between the symptom (hate speech) and the cause that gave rise to it. As Gretchen says to Patrick does not care about the comments and observations of others, he needs to compulsively repeat over and over again such comments in order to vent his frustration.

    This has been very well studied since the days of the Viennese physician Josef Breuer (1842-1925) and Freud. Janov also says the same and more recently doctors Feliltti and Bob Anda of the CDC Center and Obesity Clinic in San Diego.

    Patrick in making such comments is hurting not only hurting himself but also as well Gretchen says, he is hurting other members of the blog, trying to damage the Primal Institute and in general the Primal community.
    Miguel

  100. Margaret says:

    gretchen,
    before I read the next 20 or so comments, I want to react on your second long post.
    especiallly the last sentences about it being significant whether at some point a person looks at him or herself behaving like a bully etc.
    that is what had been going through my mind already in the discussion between Larry and Erron, about sincerity.
    the one Patrick is most insincere to in my opinion is himself.
    and that is a choice, he is smart enough to know what goes on if he’d be willing to look at himself and stop fighting and struggling for a little while.
    we all, without exception, have reached out to him and all we got back in the end were insults and attempts of being as hurtful as possible.
    he seems not to want to be helped, and to get something out of being nasty.
    it is a shame, and a loss, a waste of the person he could be and the friendships he could have, but in the end it is his choice, clearly.
    not sure whether he truely is too scared of his feelings or whether being nasty has become a habit to the point of believing in his own distorted version of his world.
    ok, back to reading those other comments, M

  101. Patrick says:

    Let me make this very clear this IS ‘fake news’. Still I thought it was funny and it’s based on Trump’s comment that these ‘anti semitic’ bomb threats and graveyard vandalizing are maybe done by the ‘other side’ that is the Jews themselves. It also reminds me I have some more ‘homework’ to do about these ” the Entebbe hijacking, the Achille Lauro hijacking, the Munich Olympics massacre” I always took these events as ‘real’ (why would I not) but now hmmmm I wonder anyway as I say more ‘homework’. ALL of the others here I accept were ‘false flags’

    “Interviewed from his retirement home, Abe Foxman waxed apoplectic, saying “Trump should be ashamed of himself for suggesting that Jews are capable of orchestrating false flag attacks. Such a thing has virtually never, ever happened….aside from one or two exceptional cases like the Lavon Affair, the USS Liberty incident, the Entebbe hijacking, the Achille Lauro hijacking, the Munich Olympics massacre, 9/11, Madrid, Bali, 7/7, Mumbai, the Boston Marathon bombing, Charlie Hebdo, Copenhagen, the 2015 Paris attacks, the Brussels Airport shooting, Nice, Munich, San Bernadino, Orlando, and a few hundred “terror attacks” inside Israel over the years, as well as 98% of the cases in which somebody has vandalized a Jewish community center or cemetery or spray painted a swastika on a synagogue, as well as an undetermined number of other cases, such a thing has never, ever happened, except maybe in Donald Trump’s anti-Semitic imagination.”

    From his Black Sea resort known informally as Mar-a-Lagovitch, Russian President Vladimir Putin issued a statement urging everyone to calm down: “Cool it! We aren’t planning to release our video footage of Trump with those girls in Hitler mustaches and SS regalia any time soon”.”

  102. Sylvia says:

    Margaret; you devil. I would say: Mom why do you hate me for these past twenty years. Why do you not remember how we were friends and your happiness at sewing me dresses and of going grocery shopping as a kid–you were my life. Why do you take out your hatred of people on me. Don’t you remember you loved me and wanted to protect me. You kept me close to you and I loved you and admired you for all your devotion to our family growing up. I’m sorry your step-fathers treated you so cruelly—but it was not me, I do not deserve your distrust or can make up for how you were badly treated, even though I’ve tried–it wore me out. I would still be afraid of you today, but I remember your love as a child and I love you for that.

    Your turn, Margaret.

  103. Sylvia says:

    Oh, thank you Larry,’ I fell into the ‘everything is about me’ trap and misread it. Though my thinking about it was cathartic. Sorry to you Margaret. My apologies.

    Yes, indeed, Margaret, there are probably a whole gamut of feelings there for Patrick.
    S.

  104. Margaret says:

    Dear Sylvia,
    I meant Patrick might learn something from really going through this ‘exercise’ in a sincere way, not you..

    but thanks for your response, it was very moving.
    not sure whether to thank you for your challenge, smiley…

    what would I want to say? Hmmmmm…..

    mommy,
    I miss you already..
    I miss all the communication we haven’t had.
    I love your spirit and playfullness but wish you would have really seen me and have been there for me, in an adult way, like a grown up mom..

    I am sad, as I seem to have it engraved in me not to hurt you, but what about me, what about me???
    (this triggers me)

    wish you would be happy and wish you would be there for me so I could have been happy…

    still I have to live with what is there and make the best of it..

    love the fact that you stroke my brother’s hair while he was fixing something with the zipper of your jacket, I noticed he was surprised too, in a nice way I guess.

    you can be very sweet, but also have needed sooo much attention in the former years.
    now you seem more mellow and more giving, concerned about us and about how we’ll do when you are gone.

    (about to cry now)

    you keep asking me if I have enough friends, if I have a boyfriend, those are true, real, genuine questions which I really appreciate.

    will miss you so very very much, loved dancing with you and playing and joking, you learned me to love the world, nature, to care about people, plants, animals, and to make the best of any situation.

    I am so sorry for your memory problem, you are aware of not knowing anymore how you had a good time the day before, and you do feel bad about it. but then you kind of shrug your shoulders and move on, facing this world with bravery and a fine sense of humor, and a lot of caring.

    feel so sad about what happened to you in your childhood and what made you the way you are as your best and only option to survive, but I feel sad for myself as well for all the lost opportunities and for having had to protect myself so much, to the point of almost keeping you away too far.
    I am grateful we now have the time to be gentle with each other, and to be able to care for you and to give you some nice moments and to make you feel as safe as possible.

    love you so much, mama…

    M

  105. Margaret says:

    Sylvia,
    wow, tears have been streaming and still are, with answering your question…
    thanks, I mean it..
    more might come up I would want to say to her…
    M

    • Sylvia says:

      You are welcome Margaret. I relate so much of what you say to your mom.
      It’s going to be one of those teary days today.
      S

  106. Margaret says:

    Sylvia,
    no, no need to apologize at all, I am so glad you wrote what you wrote!!
    it is such a shame Patrick sees exploring the old feeling part of things as a black and white choice, either delving into one’s feelings or being open to the world.
    that is so shortsighted and keeping him from any true progress, if it is true, as that is always a question with Patrick, for me, does he really mean all he says or is it just some kind of mindgame he plays.

    I have noticed so often how clearing up the old feeling part of a perception of a situation, really enables me to see what is really going on instead of seeing it through coloured glasses, of fear and defense, seeing people as hostile for example who aren’t, imagining them whispering about me or sniggering about me behind my back, or being disgusted by me, you name it…

    a usual defense of mine used to be to be a bit on the agressive side myself, a way of showing my teeth and claws in order to protect myself from possible attacks.
    but that way life becomes a selffullfilling prophecy of alienation , and you turn neutral people into posible ennemies by treating them in ways that pushes them away.
    safe seemingly but lonely and I know it made me in a person I feel somewhat ashamed about and sorry for , in certain periods of my life.
    I have understanding for myself though as I have explored where that attitude rooted in, and have changed a lot since.
    I used to say I was proud of not needing anybody when I entered therapy, and I also said girlfriends and women did not interest me at all, only male company seemed to be fun.
    that too has changed a lot, there too it does not need to be a choice, it is a question of opening up.
    Patrick seems to regard being open as being weak, while it is really the opposite of weak.
    it takes guts to be vulnerable, which makes me think of Barry, he is very strong yet can be very vulnerable as well.
    in a strong way, just by opening up and showing his true self, while being strong enough to stand up for himself in any given situation I am sure.

    I found out the more I can feel ‘vulnerable, which is more like sensitive, the stronger and more grounded I feel, as my feelings are real and simple and true and meaningful.
    and it does not close my eyes for the world, on the contrary.
    Patrick assumes a lot of stuff about primal patients without the faintest information about them, they are not interested, engaged or aware of the world’s situation, ha, how the hell would he know and what on earth has he really done to make this world a better place?
    he can’t even be decent to people here who have good intentions and has a habit of just insulting whenever running into the tiniest disagreement, or sometimes just without disagreement, insulting people for being English or Jewish or homosexual or for not believing in his hoax and conspiracy theories.
    but what am I doing, enough about him, what you wrote is a thousand times more meaningful and honest to read.

    and no, this does not mean I do not care or do not follow the situations in the middle East and elsewhere, it just means what Sylvia wrote is sincere and no act out of some feeling .
    I went to see our mom with my brother today and your comment and my reply to you, Sylvia, really helped me a lot , so thanks again.
    M

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, it’s great that you had a good day with your mom.
      I wish a peaceful day for all of us here.
      I used to have so many fears (EMF, burglars, my health, etc.) but a lot of that has vanished as of feeling, giving free play to my anxieties instead of fighting them or acting out. And it’s given me more of a practical view as to how to deal with day to day living. I still care about the world and I think care more deeply about the injustices now too, though not depressed by them. Feeling really does change the brain, doesn’t it.
      Take care.
      S

      • jackwaddington says:

        Sylvia: I wholeheartedly agree with this therapy “does alter the brain”

        Jack

      • Margaret says:

        Sylvia and Margaret,
        I am going to participate and write something to my mother since you were talking about mothers. Maybe you want to now address your fathers?

        Mommy I still wish all the time, everyday, that you had never gotten sick, and that you were around. I went through my whole childhood, my whole adult life never having a mother. Lacking that special relationship. It is a constant source of pain.
        I understand you became very sick and were suffering, but I feel like you forgot about me. Everything was about you. We would go to visit you and there was nothing at all for me. You forgot that I was just a little kid, your son, badly needing a mother.
        Before that, when you were still living at home and not so sick, I don’t remember you treating me well. I was punished for wanting attention, left unattended and forgotten, ignored, like I didn’t count. All of that so severely affected me, that I don’t remember anything good coming from you. I wonder how you feel hearing all this? What do you say about that? I remember you as mean, harsh, someone to avoid. That is the terrible truth you should know, it was so bad that there is nothing good for me to say. Nothing at all. I think you could have done better.
        There were no hugs at all from you that I remember.
        Everything has been so difficult, my whole life I have felt so alone, with no one listening to me, knowing what I actually go through, because no one really noticed or knew what to do, That was your job, Daddy’s job and you didn’t do it.
        Why did you even have me when you were already sick with a very serious disease,
        knowing you wouldn’t be able to take care me? That was very selfish. Or maybe you just didn’t know how to be a mother, but it isn’t OK. You were a terrible, terrible mother.
        Even after all of this, I’d like to have you back, to still be alive today
        That can’t happen, of course, Just a fantasy, just a fantasy that I could have a real mother, not the one you were. That you would come back and be different,
        a fantasy that comes up at random moments.
        In reality thinking of the real you only brings up very painful memories and feelings

        Phil

        • Phil says:

          Oh shit! WordPress did that, I signed in or was signing in. the last post was from me not Margaret. Here it is again below:

          Sylvia and Margaret,
          I am going to participate and write something to my mother since you were talking about mothers. Maybe you want to now address your fathers?

          Mommy I still wish all the time, everyday, that you had never gotten sick, and that you were around. I went through my whole childhood, my whole adult life never having a mother. Lacking that special relationship. It is a constant source of pain.
          I understand you became very sick and were suffering, but I feel like you forgot about me. Everything was about you. We would go to visit you and there was nothing at all for me. You forgot that I was just a little kid, your son, badly needing a mother.
          Before that, when you were still living at home and not so sick, I don’t remember you treating me well. I was punished for wanting attention, left unattended and forgotten, ignored, like I didn’t count. All of that so severely affected me, that I don’t remember anything good coming from you. I wonder how you feel hearing all this? What do you say about that? I remember you as mean, harsh, someone to avoid. That is the terrible truth you should know, it was so bad that there is nothing good for me to say. Nothing at all. I think you could have done better.
          There were no hugs at all from you that I remember.
          Everything has been so difficult, my whole life I have felt so alone, with no one listening to me, knowing what I actually go through, because no one really noticed or knew what to do, That was your job, Daddy’s job and you didn’t do it.
          Why did you even have me when you were already sick with a very serious disease,
          knowing you wouldn’t be able to take care me? That was very selfish. Or maybe you just didn’t know how to be a mother, but it isn’t OK. You were a terrible, terrible mother.
          Even after all of this, I’d like to have you back, to still be alive today
          That can’t happen, of course, Just a fantasy, just a fantasy that I could have a real mother, not the one you were. That you would come back and be different,
          a fantasy that comes up at random moments.
          In reality thinking of the real you only brings up very painful memories and feelings

          Phil

          • jackwaddington says:

            Phil: Very sad and very, very moving Phil.

            Jack

          • Phil says:

            Well, sure enough writing what I did about my mother brought up huge feelings
            All the sames things I was talking about. It’s all just sitting there waiting to come out,
            and does. But it’s just never ending, it’s not like I’m not getting through it all anytime soon. A nightmare of a mother is what she was.. Sick, unaware, unconscious, incompetent, mean, harsh selfish…..all words I would use and many more.

            • Sylvia says:

              Phil, wow. Little by little it will all come out I think for a long time. Good going. I think it does help and it’s not just an exercise, it’s an opening up.
              S

            • Larry says:

              Such a sad childhood, Phil. It’s important you were able to write about it.

  107. Margaret says:

    thank you Phil.
    it is such a good way to get into a feeling. talking to my dad, did trigger me into my very first big feeling at the start of my therapy. which instantly reasssured me I had made the best decision ever with crossing the ocean to explore myself.
    would you rather think of adressing your dad or your mother?
    M

  108. Margaret says:

    Phil, our comments have been written at the same moment, you were reading my mind!
    so you did answer my question and would rather think of talking to your dad at this point.
    makes sense..
    M

  109. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, you gave such a fine example of how fine this blog can be, thanks again for being who you are and sharing with us.
    you are a refreshing breeze, smiley.
    M

  110. Margaret says:

    Sylvia,
    thinking back on what else there is I feel not resolved with my mother.
    when I imagine her not being there anymore, I feel I tend to blame myself for not having loved her enough, or not having shown it to her, having kept too much distance.
    it is an old old feeling, I have struggled since the beginning of my therapy with those feelings, first not even knowing whether i did love her or not.
    then remembering she used to ask me after some quarrel, when I was still a kid, whether I still loved mummy, and it did make me feel I did not show it enough if she was not sure about it and needed so much confirmation.
    it put an enormous responsibility and guilt trip on my shoulders, and an unspoken set of rules I set myself I guess.

    the remains of that guilt are still playing up, scaring me as I don’t want to get stuck with them when it is too late…

    but on the other hand she has a possessive kind of streak, like considering me a prolongation of herself. I did not like it when I would be sitting around as a kid, considering options of what to do, and she would suggest me for instance ‘why don’t you play the piano?’ and instantly I’d feel like not doing so, like ‘get out of my head’…

    she told us at some moment that when she had us, finally she felt she had something that really belonged to her. even recently she said something of the kind. something that entirely belonged to her..
    that is among other things what made me feel like needing to protect myself in order not to lose myself, I had to keep an internal safety distance.
    still now sometimes it strikes me my half sister gives her a strong hug upon our arrival, while me and my brother kiss her on the cheek without too much body contact.
    it is not like we never hug at all, and he always did do so more easily than me.
    it is only more recently I got into wanting and also enjoying to be more physical with her, it does not feel anymore like she might start taking advantage of it/me in some way.
    it is a complicated and confusing set of feelings, and I am glad we have this time to find room for tenderness and me giving it as well.
    slowly I start to feel I should not be too hard on myself for these feelings, it is because I have felt hurt that I needed to keep this distance, hurt or threatened, she could be scary in a non-physical way when she felt cross with me, giving me the cold shoulder , disapproval playing me in a manipulative way. not meaning to be nasty or mean, but still affecting my emotional integrity..
    daughters and moms, that seems such a complicated area isn’t it?
    M

    • Sylvia says:

      yes Margaret, it is a very complicated relationship. I had to laugh a bit about the similarities we have. My mom got a piano for me as something to occupy my time as she sometimes said she didn’t know what to do with me when I was bored. I wasn’t very good at the piano and took lessons for 6 years, being too afraid to ask her if I could quit.

      I understand the feeling of not wanting to give your whole self to Mom and hold back to maintain your individuality. Everyone in my family felt and resisted the same possessiveness of my mom. I tried not to bring a boyfriend and brothers their girlfriends around as she saw them as a threat of being more important than her. Very unhealthy view of hers.

      I recall when we buried my little turtle that had died, she asked me if I wanted to say a prayer, and I sensed that I did not want to be vulnerable so I said: “no it’s just a turtle,”
      even though I felt bad about losing him. There was a mistrust already that I did not want to share my feelings. I was probably around seven.
      Not that there wasn’t very close ties and good times, but we do remember the things that divide us, and the need to hold back and protect ourselves.
      I know what you mean, Margaret.
      S

  111. Margaret says:

    is the mail service out of order or has the blog suddenly grown silent today?
    M

  112. Margaret says:

    Sylvia,
    that indeed sounds so very familiar, thanks for sharing that.
    it is sad we felt the need to protect ourselves by not showing our vulnerability.

    one aspect is she also did often not take my crying seriously, found it a funny sight, told people I could cry at will, like you get a cookie if you cry.
    she had a mock name for me when I would be crying. not always, but often.
    for some realson a lot of the pictures taken from me is while I am crying, which seems a weird thing to do.
    she must have urged my dad in those cases to take a picture from me..

    sigh….i know she was not trying to be cruel, just her view on things.

    on another not, I saw an item in the news today about some European committee or council gathering, where one of the members, a Polish right wing guy, went on about how it is only right that women get lower wages than men, as they are smaller, weaker, etc., and his example to prove his point was that in the top 100 of chess players there is not one woman..
    he also finds women should not be allowed to vote…
    of course the female comittee memebers stood up against him. the other day he had already greeted with the Hitler greeting…

    people like that are amazing, incredible but disturbingly there anyway..
    M

    • Sylvia says:

      Yeah Margaret, I hated to be mocked or made fun of too. Seems strange that people take advantage of children to get a rise out of them because it is so easy. Maybe they have lost touch with their feelings and it is a novelty to them–like when Jimmy Kimmel makes fun with his video about children loosing their Halloween candy to their parents. Such raw emotions children have.

      About that Pole who thinks women should be put in their place, a lot of men I’ve heard quote the Bible saying woman should be subservient to their husbands, etc. Of course they are pretty insecure and want to be in control and have everything their way and not be questioned.
      Good for those female committee members for standing up against that non-sense. You have to wonder what that guy’s mom was like to have such a low opinion of women. Or maybe it was his father who is to blame. Archaic views he has, anyway.
      S

  113. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, read your comment again, and what you said about protecting our individuality hits the nail on the head.
    it is a very sad story you describe about the burial of your little turtle and you having to put up a defense there..
    come to think of it I did stop crying in front of my mother almost completely growing up.

    another event that stands out is how, when I was already an adult, and was at her house some time, I must have been in my thirties, a girlfriend from my judo club came by to see me.
    when she left my mom thanked her for being my friend, while I was standing next to them, and my girlfriend was stunned for a moment and then lauged and said there was nothing to thank her for…

    it is incredible really, my mom did not even realize herself how she insulted me by thanking my friends for wanting to be my friends..
    like why would she do that, what did it mean about her opinion of me?
    I think it is a part of her own general feeling of inferiority, not even sure it had to do with something about me, but still it was a bit disconcerting to say the least..
    later when she would ask me if I had said thank you for a present or something, in front of people, I would just laugh and say ‘mom, do you think I am not properly educated?’, and it did not get to me anymore as it became funny rather than hurtful.

    it might be the mix of good and bad that makes it so hard to deal with the feelings, and the taboos, being angry at her has been very hard for me for many years. I mean expressing my anger.
    it started changing while as she was getting older I had to start setting real boundaries and now it feels in balance and things are mostly peaceful.
    but today I was also aware of how terribly I will miss her when she will be gone, as even now sometimes I just want to call her and hear her and talk with her for a little while, which I do.
    today she sounded a bit confused and down, I think I woke her up out of a little nap and she might have just had her medication for the night, she was telling me about what she had done that day but it made little sense, or maybe it would make sense if I knew the situation.
    she was talking about kids and learning and sorting out the mess and arranging things, maybe a class of first graders visited the home, who knows..

    but she said she was ok, so nothing to worry about too much..
    I feel protective about my brother and catch myself trying to cheer him up, talking about al the good sides of how she is, when we come back from a visit with her.
    I do my best to also leave room for the more painful feelings, acknowledging them as well.
    he is sensitive but does not show it so much.
    I am concerned about how he will feel and deal with the loss..
    or maybe also about how we will deal with it, like the two last members of the family, faced with a sudden big void..
    but that is not yet the case, like i said to him yesterday, now we can still enjoy the good moments we can have with her..
    M

  114. jackwaddington says:

    On reading the current exchange between Margaret and Sylvia; I am inspired to comment on what I perceive it, on a deeper level. I do not make this comment by way of critiquing them, but just that I see, reading their comments. why their parents behaved towards them the way they did.

    I will relate my feelings about all this to my own experience with my parents. I do not forgive them for the things they did to me by way of hurts … they were on ‘automatic pilot’ with their own childhood traumas. I do not see it as a means of forgiving them, and I find it’s futile to attempt to analyse what they were doing in the moment they hurt me. They were hurt and traumatized in their own childhoods and they were reacting towards me, based on that. I was not aware of it then, and it’s only through therapy that I am able to see the deeper WHY!!!!

    The problem then, is what caused their parents to do to them, what they did to mine? It’s the same ‘merry-go-round’ … over and over again … ad infinitum. It’s a sad dilemma for us humans. As I see and feel it; there is not way that most of us humans are going to get Primal therapy. I also see and feel that education in the sense we know it, will not ‘cut’ it either. The question then remains … are we humans doomed to keep this “merry-go-round” going round and round and round? If so I feel we are doomed to extinction as a creature … and in so doing, are more than likely to take all life forms on this planet, with us.

    I don’t need to repeat my ‘pet’ theory again on this blog, but I do feel very strongly that it is the only way to stop the ‘merry-go-round’, from spinning out of control. How this whole “neurosis” thing got started I feel we will never know, though I am aware that Bernard Campbell, an anthropologist professor at Cambridge University did make one proposal. I am not sure; even if his proposal is accurate that, that is likely to change anything.

    The message Of Primal Theory is so, so simple BUT in proposing it, is also so elusive. That’s sad.

    Jack

    • Phil says:

      Jack,
      You say, “he question then remains … are we humans doomed to keep this “merry-go-round” going round and round and round? If so I feel we are doomed to extinction as a creature … and in so doing, are more than likely to take all life forms on this planet, with us.”
      I’m afraid so, but hopefully some lower life will survive like bacteria, fungi, and algae, even after nuclear fallout from a horrific war, or climate change.
      We are too successful for our own good, we overcome all competitors on this planet, squeezing them out and causing them to become extinct.
      After millions of years higher life forms may again evolve with a better outcome.
      In the meantime it’s Friday evening! Time to sit back and enjoy the weekend.
      Phil

      • jackwaddington says:

        For the most part I gree with you Phil; BUT I would like to alter one word in your respose, when you say:- “We are too successful for our own good” I would prefer to say are:- “We are too NEUROTIC for our own good”.

        The notion that we are the superior being on the planet I feel is fallacious. Suffering this extremely debilitating disease, does not IMO, make us a superior creature: but even maybe an inferior creature. The ‘trappings’ of what goes for our civilization and out assumed benefits in living, is just that:- “fallacious”. It is just that, I feel, needs re-thinking.

        Jack

    • Tim Gordon says:

      Ok, Jack, I assume you are talking about abolishing money; so, how do we start? What is the first step we should take?

      • jackwaddington says:

        Tim: I am afraid if I start into this again, some on the blog are not going to be happy. However, I will take a rough outline just for you, BUT should you wish to really get into a discussion about it, I feel it would be more expedient if we did that through private emails. My email address is:- jackwaddington@yahoo.com

        So here’s MY rough means to get there:- We could start by making such things as public transport free and also the postal letter service. Then from there create a Public funded healthcare system, as suggested by Bernie Sanders, as exist in the UK. From that point on I feel many would see the benefits of making certain things free, in society.

        How all this could be funded would be by drawing down the military and then even the police force. Both these entities actually make the matters of Defense and Law Enforcement more and more necessary as time goes on. Self perpetuating as t’were. All this requires that anyone considering it, needs to give it quite some considerable contemplation …. of the general effects on society and in particular on the emotional response to society.

        As I have repeatdly stated; this in not an idea I came upon on my own. The idea has be around for more than a century. One last pont:- I was assigned a buddy at an early retreat, who was also an “anarchist”;- meaning without ‘Heirachy’. No-one is any better or should be any more privelidged than anyone else.

        Psychologically most of us humans bought into our current (so called) civilization in our formative years since there was not real alteernative.

        Jack

  115. Margaret says:

    come to think of it, I think I did forgive my parents, just because they could not help having been made into who they are, or were, but they still did try to do their best which is what counts most.

    and cockroaches seem to be among the survivors of almost anything.
    and they are cleaner ups. so well, they might have a hell of a job ahead..
    possibly their ocean counterparts the shrimps will have to clean up all the microplastics in the water as well, and who knows which kind of creature climbs up the ladder of evolution?
    I think I mentioned this tiny little lobster which for unknown reasons has an eyesight that is way much better in various ways, than any other creature of the world so far.
    it can detect stuff we can’t even imagine, on various wavelengths.
    nobody knows why it needs that kind of eyesight but it is one of those little intriguing facts and mysteries of nature.
    and some of the dinosaurs had stripey fur and were cat size, so cuddly does not necessarily mean mammal , ha!
    a big cuddly furry cockroach ..
    anybody knows the Fabulous furry freak brother comics?
    I loved them, remember a lot of the jokes, and also the ones about the cockroaches and their ongoing battle with the humans and cat. their general always saying when a battle was lost, ‘oh, plenty more where they came from..’, especially when one of his lieutenant rushed up to him with a new secret weapon, fertility pills..
    the best comics ever, my alltime favorite, specially Fat Freddy’s cat!!
    M

  116. Patrick says:

    President Trump has been on

    • Patrick says:

      I need a ‘handler’ because I believe I have been seen (or heard?) talking to a Russian recently! That would make me ‘guilty’…………………..of something………….

  117. Otto Codingian says:

    Debbie/Berk Downer alert.
    Margaret, you said it! Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers! What a time in history! Unfortunately for me, even Fat Freddy was getting laid and I wasn’t. The stuff i was smoking back then precludes any more accurate memories. But what was really funny to me was that the cockroach lieutenant had on one of those South American dictator caps. Somewhere along the way, all that 60’s energy and creativity got mislaid into the “Whole Foods” syndrome we have today. And those comic books might possibly be obtained these days, but at a price, and it just isn’t the same because the people and flavor and youth that I was immersed in are all f’ing gone for good.

  118. Otto Codingian says:

    no i am not coming out of the closet. please delete that.

  119. Margaret says:

    ha Otto, finally I found a fellow furry freak brother fan!!
    I think they keep editing them, at least I remember seeing new ones , or old ones reedited, but that is already 20 years ago of course.
    thinking of them just makes me smile again right now…

    Fat Freddy’s cat being cross with Freddy, crapping and thinking in a little cloud above his head ‘wait until he puts on his headphones…’ or in another one, ‘wait until he puts on his underpants!, and specially the way they are drawn, every picture an individual piece of art, full of details and expression, and sooo funny and familiar for the freaky ones among us…

    and the one where they decide to stop using all dope, for a change, as a new experience, and then you see the comic book characters slowly changing into pictures of real persons, but starting to feel very down and bored, until one of them takes the initiative again to roll this big joint, and immediately they turn back into their comics characters and I think Freewheeling Franklin says ‘phew, for a moment I thought we were actually gonnna wash the dishes!!.

    but well, I guess you have to see it, haha, luckily they are engraved in my memory. I think I could still draw them.
    i still have a very old raggged t-shirt full of holes, but with a dancing Fat Freddy’s cat on the front!!!
    tap dancing, smiley..
    I think you might still enjoy reading them, as they are timeless and get so well the atmosphere of those days..
    and the one with the magic coin, the cat wishes himself a lovely cute kittycat and then Freddy picks the coin up and holds it up to look at it and says ‘well I’ll be dipped in dogs hit!’

    haha, it is the way it is drawn that makes it perfect, for me anyway..
    hope you can track some of them down and enjoy them Otto!!
    M

    • Tim Gordon says:

      Well, Margaret, I’d write “lol” but most of the time than simply means “yeah, that was sort of funny”, whereas your recounting of Freewheeling Franklin’s relief actually did made me burst out laughing!

    • Otto Codingian says:

      So Eloquent!

  120. Margaret says:

    Phil, ok, here I go…

    Papa,
    where should I start?
    when you had just died, and I had rushed to your bedside, and hurled for a while, what came out after that was ‘thank you daddy…’…

    I adored and loved you and needed you so badly as a child.
    but I also feared your silent disapproval, which felt like rejection.
    or when you expressed it and called me ‘just like a boy’, in a disapproving tone of voice.
    I was surprised myself when my first big feeling broke to the surface and it was just that, me talking to you, repeating over and over ‘I am a girl!!’
    it took me completely by surprise, the feeling taking over and making me repeat it again and again, and making me cry..

    you worked very hard all your life, getting up early, riding your bicycle for years, winter and summer, to the city, at least an hours ride, or more.
    you were always home in time, never late, always reliable, and worked in the evenings as a tailor for us and for some other people, or worked in the garden to raise crops of vegetables and potatoes..
    when mom was ill, which happened regularly you also cooked and cleaned the house.

    makes me teary already thinking back of it.

    but you kept me at a distance, and more so my brother who was not your own kid.
    as an adult my mother gave me an explanation about that, she said she often urged you to hug us or to be more affectionat.
    but then she added he told her he could not do so, as it triggered how much he missed seeing his firstborn daughter of his former relationship.
    the mother of my halfsister kept her away from him for years and years, and he must have suffered badly about that, as it seems he adored her. I know you were very protective, daddy, always worried we would have some kind of accident, holding my hand tightly on streets or busy places.
    it must have been horrible for you not to be able to see your first daughter, knowing she was stuck with a mean mom and she was missing you terribly.
    my halfsister told me over and over when I was an adult how you were very cuddly with her, how she could always jump on your lap, first thing every morning and feel completely welcome there.

    well daddy, I don’t remember ever having been able to do that, not even to adress you and feel welcome.
    all I could do to be as close to you as possible was to hang around while you were working on the sewing machine, or in the garden, or on the car. but I knew quickly not to talk to you too much.
    at first in therapy I blamed mom, thought she had stood between us, but later on I realized myself she had tried to protect us kids from feeling hurt by you.

    once talking with her after I had started therapy, she told me my brother had asked her as a kid why daddy did not love him. she had assured him daddy did love him, like she assured me which in a way was confusing.

    still I feel you did love me to some degree, and I hope you also loved my brother…

    my mom on that occasion started crying telling me how she used to rush home to be there in time so we would not be alone with our dad in case he would be unfriendly with us.

    still, there are many good memories, of our family going out on vacations and seaside holidays, camping, and on instigation of mom playing board games all four of us, which I loved.

    and on some occasions you put together a kite from scratch, with some thin wooden sticks and paper, trying it out with adjusting a tail with paper bows until it would be stable, to then hand the rope to my brother first to run with it to make it go up in the sky, and then to me to hold it for a while.

    so you did do a lot of nice things despite having a hard time to give us direct personal attention.
    that last part has caused grieving for years in therapy, blaming myself, and probably laid to the root of my drug history, which was part of wanting to belong to a family, the family of freaky longhaired people, and I was desperately looking for affection all the time.

    i chose guys that were not entirely interested in me, trying to turn them into loving partners…

    always hoping some day they would find out how loveable I really was, and then they would open up to me and want to be with me forever….

    I regret to have caused you so much worry and grief by my rebellion starting in my teenage years, and it is sad for you I was not the girly daughter you dreamed off…

    I always noticed pain in your eyes and wanted to do everything to prevent it, so you became the third member of my family I needed to protect, besides mom and brother…

    I ended up feeling so lost and lonely, daddy..

    why couldn’t you like me and love me?
    why couldn’t you show your affect if it was there somewhere?

    occasionally you did, like passing behind my chair you might stroke my hair, and you would take work out of my hands.

    that too became a source of guilt, as I know I ended up behaving like a lazy brat, coming down late in the mornings seeing you finishing cleaning the floors.
    then I might help you bringing the little carpets back in, but still…

    I think the main thing was I avoided the feeling of emptiness by coming down late, as I was not really that lazy.
    as a teenager sometimes I would work hard in the garden preparing part of the ground for palnting, to surprise you..

    there was no real evil or nastiness in our faily, just so much pain..

    that is what makes me teary, sad..

    stil I am glad we got somewhat closer in the last years of your life, we used to go to flea markets together and to play cards, which was very nice…

    on the day you died, for once I prepared your meal, well, warmed it up and cut your meat and brought it on a plate as you were watching the Tour de France..

    that afternoon you had a heart attack and passed away…

    I miss you very much, daddy, crying now..
    M

  121. Phil says:

    Margaret, Such a very sad story about your father, He sounds like a cold, unloving person
    Tragic how he worked so hard and then died so suddenly.

  122. Otto Codingian says:

    I feel terrible. I got nothing. Went to group, close to a feeling and i did not go for it. I got nothing except my job and the people there and it is an illusion and i am really all alone. whatever. i don’t have anything and my end is near. whatever.

  123. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    I don’t feel about him as cold, just distant most of the time.
    he could be very funny as well, and a lot of the time he was very cuddly with mom.
    sometimes he brought home some little present from his job, well, at least once, and he did show us stuff like how to change and repair a bicycle tire.
    and as I say, on family outings we all had a good time.
    what I loved about him was that he felt kind of real, calm and more adult and stable than my mother, and he had a good sense of dry humor.
    i think he provided a feeling of safety and stability, and occasionally did really play with us.
    come to think of it, once he made a little wooden fortress for my brother, all made from scratch, with little cut out shooting holes and even a gate with a chain you could clap open and shut, all painted with grey and green like an old fortress.
    that must have been a xmas present or something, and must have taken a lot of time to make.
    he made the school uniform for me and a coat, which I actually did not really appreciate as it was not quite the same as the fashionable coats my fellow, richer class mates were wearing.
    but it was a lot of work and he did a good job.
    he built two big nice rooms on the attic for me and my brother, and well, as I say, he could be fun to have around, specially when it was the four of us playing games or going out to the seaside or on vacation.
    he took us fishing, I think a lot of it on instigation of our mom but he did do it anyway and we loved it.
    he loved our dogs and was good with them, made most of the kittens ‘disappear’ without us knowing it and when we knew they had been born left one of them for the mom cat.
    he did not mind me to be there when he chopped off a chicken’s head, but I did not mind too much, as the chicken did not really suffer and did not seem to notice something bad was about to happen. but he never allowed us to be around when a rabbit would be killed.
    he was a good dad, I feel, but not showing a lot of direct affection, only some of the time or in an indirect way, by preparing meals for us, repairing our bikes, keeping the house in good shape, bringing a nice xmas tree home, and being very reliable.
    he was real, like when he refused to come to my wedding, with the guy that had already shown to be a long term drug user, I felt he took a stand, and can’t blame him for it, as he was being honest .

    I looked up to him in many ways, he had not gone to school that long but had a natural kind of wisdom, like he could solve algebra problems for me in his own unorthodox way, but the result was correct.
    and he could draw well, and taught ne ow to make an exact copy, in another size, of any picture or drawing, by using a fine raster of lines.
    so he did actually give us attention and stability, and provided a safe home, and fine vacations in our little old Citroen 2pk, the loveliest car ever!!
    I loved the fires in autumn, burning old wood and leaves, and then puttting potatoes in the hot ashes, and poking with a stick in the remains of the fire, those red parts between the wood always reminded me of how hell was supposed to look like, but in a non threatening and exciting way.

    so no, not cold in an active way, just the absence a lot of the time of being emotionally available, and on some levels leaving me with a feeling of rejection, and not being good enough.
    maybe it had to do with me, and maybe it was just me not being my older sister he had lost.
    still I loved him and still miss him, I notice how a little smile appears just thinking of him…

    my halfsister always talks about how much he could laugh and make other people laugh, and it is true, only she has had the full warmth still, and I had to do without a large part of it.
    but as I say, I still would like to go and see him and simply be with him, all calm and uncomplicated, and play some cards with him..
    M

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, It’s nice that you can remember the good things about your dad. I know once I let free the bad things , the good stuff is there in the memory too to be looked back on with fondness. My dad provided a lot of stability too. We kids knew that he was the saving-grace of our chaotic family.
      S

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      Here goes mine:

      This is really hard to do Dad because we never, ever had these kinds of important conversations.
      It was so difficult to lose you and I still miss you so much. When that happened I was crying and crying for many days and felt like I was going crazy, my whole world turned upside down. So many thoughts and feelings came up about my childhood. You were always there and I could count on that. Yet, I have to say, and I hate saying it to you, that you weren’t there for me in a lot of ways that I needed.
      You were comfortable for me to be with, fun and easy to talk to, but never about important things bothering me. You weren’t there for me for emotional support. I couldn’t go to you for problems, for all my anxieties. You didn’t help me with having such a harsh and sick mother. You didn’t intervene in any way. You just didn’t seem to see what I was going through. How could that be? Is it you noticed,but were helpless to say or do anything?
      You were very lenient; I could always go and play with friends, I did whatever I wanted. Of course, I liked that a lot Other kids didn’t have parents like that,. In that way, you were a great father to have. You were not at all strict. You trusted me. Sometimes that was wrong. You didn’t realize I wasn’t studying, doing homework, and hardly passing in school. You didn’t know I cut classes or didn’t go at all. You had no idea what I was going through and didn’t try to find out.You didn’t know that I felt like I was on my own with no help or guidance. I had to do things and make decisions for myself.
      At a young age I was abandoned and harshly treated by mommy. You don’t seem to know about that. You had notolerance, or even made fun of my being weak, anxious, fearful and needy. I needed mom and she wasn’t there for me. In so many ways, you weren’t either. I had to close myself off from you. You must have thought I was
      an easy child, nothing for you to do. You became like a friend for me, not really a father. Something was really wrong in our relationship. I didn’t even call you Dad.
      I came home from college one year, after having had a terrible time socially, feeling barely able to function. I did nothing that summer, I was feeling desperate and suicidal. I decided to do primal therapy without even talking to you. You didn’t
      seem to notice the state I was in or that I had no friends. I started the therapy and some months later you found out somehow and commented to me that “I had a good childhood”. I said “no I didn’t” and that was it for that topic.
      You were unaware that having a harsh, sick and missing mother could cause a bad childhood, it seems. It might have been good if we could have had this conversation at that time.

      I do remember many good times, holidays, trips to the beach, and just spending time with you. I did sit on your lap. All of this was very important, I’ll never forget. You provided a good home, in a nice place, and a stable life for us.
      You worked very hard all your life and I know that. You had a very good sense of humor, which I liked a lot. You did try to do your best, I know. You went through a lot too, I know. Terrible to lose your partner at such a young age, in such a horrible way. To have her live out her life in an institution. I know you were very depressed for a long time, until maybe the last few years of your life. So many other terrible things happened to the family. You didn’t help yourself to get your life going again. Nothing turned out right in our family, it’s very sad.
      I am glad the last few years of your life were better. But why couldn’t you plan things for yourself? I needed a father with a zest for life
      not a depressed one. Not your fault I guess, but I have to say it. You didn’t go for any kind of help.I’m glad you formed a great relationship with J (my wife) and she also misses you very much. You didn’t get to see your
      grandchildren which is very sad. You would have loved them; and it’s sad they never got to know you.
      Phil

  124. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    why do you think your end is near?
    I am sorry to hear you feel bad, and feel you did not go for it in group.
    that is a drag, groups can be so hard to find the right moment, I hate that when it happens.
    are you still alone at home, wasn’t Z gonna come back?
    M

  125. Otto Codingian says:

    M, not sure when Z coming back. I find it impossible to be kind to her anyways. I should have taken the opportunity to use the private room yesterday, but i did not think i was totally in the middle of the feeling, more on the cusp. But so many people there yesterday that if you waited 2 seconds after saying something, someone else was talking about themselves. And of course i feel that i really don’t deserve to have any time for myself in a group anyways. The theme of the group was supposed to be “how do we lie to ourselves” or something like that. Somehow that reminded me of a bitch session I had with the other guys at work Friday, complaining about our leaders. And I was able to blurt that out, describing that episode in my minimalist fashion. “This is IT?” I was said to the group, and I didn’t get a chance to connect the dots right away, not till driving home maybe. This was IT: the highest height of my week was that complaint session. Not eating out with a friend or loved one. Not gazing into a loved one’s eyes as we lingered in bed on a Saturday or Sunday morning. This is my life, just nothing, or bare minimum, go to work and come home to the poor lonely dog. She does not ask for much. I have no friends, I don’t do anything with anyone. All i do is work and watch the news about Trump, and stuff my feelings down with food that is poisoning my arteries and organs, and the poison is hastening my demise. The thrill of today is that I am trying to do my taxes, and my heart is definitely not in it. Thanks for asking! HA!

  126. Vicki says:

    Sorry I am late to this discussion, but I have caught up with the Blog, from Daniel on February 27, 2017 at 8:57 am, which was wonderful, on down through all the comments from Gretchen and many others refuting Patrick’s repetitive nonsense and avoidance of real questions, and about just in general being disgusted by or tired of his posts, and wanting him banned. I think Larry is right, that “unconsciously it serves the purpose of relieving his inner tensions at least for the short term”. Endlessly. He has repeatedly proven that he will waste his and our time forever. If Patrick cannot see that he needs to leave, and then go, then I think he should be forced to leave, because he is a toxic pollutant. To me, a criteria for being part of the Primal Blog has to be the ‘desire to improve oneself through Primal Therapy’ (whether “knowledge of” or “learning about” or “using” or “particpating in”) — and Patrick has no desire for any of that. He burned his bridges, keeps torching all lifelines tossed his way, and now just wants to look back over the chasm he created and taunt us with whatever is offensive at the moment, as if that’s his victory.

    • Larry says:

      Haven’t heard from you here in a long, long time Vicki. Welcome back.

    • Phil says:

      Vicki,
      Nice to see you back on the blog. As to the issues that you bring up, you must have read my earlier comments. All I can add is that I’ve been finding it possible to use the
      blog even while all this is going on. If people are reluctant to come here, then I guess it is a problem that should be addressed more than it is now,
      Phil

  127. Otto Codingian says:

    I found this cat lady again on youtube.Run With Lions – Marlice Van Der Merwe – Part 2. Her small tribe and her, having fun in the desert with their lions. apparenjtly she is a conservationist in Africa. I dont know if your app can describe this to you or not, Margaret. Anyway, I wish i had not given up on learning Russian in the 9th grade, since i really wish i knew what the narrator was saying. Anyway, it is great that you can see how people used to live, actually, are still living in the wild. I am thinking man is just another predator, not sure when neurosis came into the picture. no other big thoughts. just a happy lady with her happy husband with their lions and some native people. happy happy happy. HA! now i get to go to bed and go to work tomorrow. hurray. or not.

    • Erron says:

      For god’s sake, enough of this man already…

    • Larry says:

      You criticize her for where she sits?! ..where she sits because she has joint pain…have you never had joint pain! What kind of a mind does that! And predictable, like stuck in a rut…Even more incredulous, what kind of a mind does that and then professes to know a better way and expects to lead us there!!? It defies common sense.

    • Jack says:

      Did you in ‘Thanking God’ go on you knees and clasp your hands together like the good ‘Cat’olic’ you Celts are supposed to be ??????? OR are you joints (the ones in the hip) restricting your mobility … now that you are well into OLD AGE?????? 65 kum Aug 8 … Yeah!!!! Maybe old age thinking!!!!!

      If you are unable to think beyond money (it’s removal) I might suggest your thinking is very, very limited, AND old thinking. Perhaps you need to get back to that clean air over there in Kerry county, since you at least admitted you don’t fit in here. Then, least-ways, you can breath without it sounding like a fart.

      Jack

      • Patrick says:

        Reminds me of the joke 2 gay guys going down the street one let’s off a big fart. The other one says “Love is in the air”

        • Jack says:

          I take it you know all about “love’ being in the air !!!!!!!!

          Addendum:- Since, kum Aug 8, you will be able to re-tyre (including the spare) You’ll then be able retreat from this blog. You’ll then be able to go over to county Kerry and get your brother to take care of you … along with the rest of his ‘sheeples’.

          BUT then kum to think of it; I gather they still have the internet, even over there. What a pity … you’re not going to be able to ‘re-treat’ yourself, after all.

          Jack

  128. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    there is so much in your comment to your dad I will reread it a number of times..

    vicky, nice to hear you, and what you said about Patrick having burned his bridges and then gloathing about being offensive does make a lot of sense.
    i would vote for temporary bans every time he misbehaves, what would still give him an opportunity to learn, but well, I usually am a touch too optimistic..
    M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      Writing all that yesterday didn’t do much to stir feelings. Probably it was too long and not enough to the point.
      Today when I think on it I have kind of a feeling frustration. That my father wouldn’t be listening, and wouldn’t get it. Also, if I did see him I wouldn’t want to say most or even any of it.
      It was a worthwhile exercise just the same.
      Phil

      • Jo says:

        Glad it was worthwhile Phil, and personally I’m glad you wrote, as I was apparently ripe for a feeling about missing my own dad.

    • Vicki B. says:

      Thanks, Margaret and others.

      Without hesitation, Patrick ably demonstrated my point about him. With no doubt, and no thought about his utter lack of involvement with Primal Therapy, like a little boy peering over the fence, he can only lob rocks at targets of his anger.

      Sadly, he can’t or doesn’t want to even say who really hurt him, and when — maybe he no longer remembers, or maybe it would be too painful to contemplate and recall to the light of day — no matter now, he chooses not to go there, instead fighting tooth and nail to the bitter end.

      For myself, I do not want to cling to that kind of bitterness, as my mother did, frightened and full of emptiness, mostly disconnected from herself and all of us.

      • Patrick says:

        Vicki – it seems to me you are now on your ‘high chair’ on the blog. Here maybe it is a bit less noticeable but anyway that’s the way it looks to me. Any more ‘advice’ or ‘help’ or ‘judgement’ you feel like dishing out?

  129. Margaret says:

    Vicky,
    how are you doing?
    is Baby still with you?
    M

  130. Margaret says:

    phil,
    it might be better to talk about what you just wrote then if ever you try it again.
    it seems a good insight anyway.
    for me it helps not to focus on the real situation mom or dad, but to imagine talking to a safe parent like them, while i`I would feel inhibited to say whatever without repercussions.
    but of course it is one of those things that sometimes do miracles and sometimes don’t work.
    but you gave a very good idea of your situation and more information of the kind of person your dad was.
    and not all in your family had a bad development, you did manage to form a nice family of your own with two fine sons!
    and hopefully plenty of grandkids some day, you’d make a great granpa
    M

  131. Margaret says:

    Larry,
    someone that is cultivating being a jerk?
    maybe another reason why it might be useful to put boundaries to this, for all concerned.
    M

  132. Otto Codingian says:

    If you are tired of hearing about Mr. Trump and his ordeals, and about the North Koreans firing missiles close to Japan, and Iran being a beyotch, here are some people who are doing a whole lot of better. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U2-M_0JddkM

    • Sylvia says:

      Enjoyed that very much, Otto. That would be my ideal job, to volunteer saving endangered species animals. Liked the puppy hyenas playing with the adult hyena.
      The leopards looked so huge close up. There are good people helping there in Namibia. And the helping of locals with health clinics; we have so much and they have so little. It does put things into perspective.

  133. Leslie says:

    Vicki – as always sees and writes honestly – making some great points about Primal blog criteria.
    And as can be expected but still always so shocking to see – Patrick’s callous, crass response…

    He hurls it all – his anti-semiticism, racism,homophobia and cruelty to and about people here.
    Sicker than anyone I have ever known or had to deal with.
    The only thing worse must be to have to actually live with such thinking, thoughts and beliefs – and to go on in such an empty, horrid life.

    • Patrick says:

      Oh your’s so predictable. News Flash: My life is fine or at least as far as you need to know

    • Jack says:

      The telling words in Patrick’s response to you was “…. at least as far as you need to know”.

      He’s not int that great a shape; for if he were, he would not need to add that one liner

      Jack

  134. Jack says:

    I got up reasonably early this morning, made and ate my breakfast; then went outside to sit in the sun, with clear blue skies. There were some “chem trail” out there over the ocean, but they looked quite natural and normal to me. I did not feel there were man made. I remember when I was young seeing such types of white formations, up there in the heavens.

    Yes I am the “Devil” (devil of a guy), for I never wanted to be GOD. He sounded too boring … needing all those people to worship him (maybe an inferiority complex … who knows). I’m not quite sure what matches I’m supposed to be playing with, but they sure ain’t ‘football matches’ or worse, ‘Cricket matches’.

    Ah well!!! that’s me for right now.

    Jack

      • Jack says:

        Is there, OR was there; ever a chance YOU might be wrong?
        I asked several time, who is doing all, that you state is happening … and why are they doing it … and, what method are they using to do it??? Since you are so, so certain about it all, explain it all to us/me.

        Why should I investigate it when we have and expert on the whole matter, in YOU?

        Not to worry; you have a place to ‘re-treat’ to. There you can live for-ever-afterwards … in some semblance of bliss, and shed some of the bitterness.

        Jack

  135. Margaret says:

    ha, remember I wrote about two weeks ago about the awful treatment me and my brother got in that bank office?

    today I received another reaction from the customer services of the bank, thanking me for my information, which was serious enough for them to instigate an inquiry from the commercial service at that office.
    they told me that situation should never have happened as it was to blame on the exaggeratedly suspicious attitude of the employee.
    they apologized extensively and were glad we were still at their bank, after having changed to another location of it.
    I am very happy with this second response, and specially about having been able to send it through to my brother who was the biggest target of that woman’s rudeness, which I suspect was based on some kind of racism.
    so all’s well that ends well, if she still works there she will be more polite and hopefully behave in a more civilized way.

    a satisfying result, I am glad we did react, ha!
    i expect my brother will also be pleased.
    M

  136. Margaret says:

    such a shocking news item.
    in a French zoo people sneaked in during the night to shoot a white rhinoceros. the they cut off his horn with a chainsaw.
    how low can you go, to go kill a caged animal, with other rhinos there, to cut off the horn which is simply made of the same material as our fingernails, just for the monetary gain..
    those kinds of things are another big black stain on humankind.
    it makes me so sad and frustrated.
    and about time too they prohibit in China the use of tiger claws and rhino horns etc. for their medicine as they must know by now it is just a fairy tale belief that should be belonging to the past by now, together with other unacceptable and cruwl behaviours like shark fin being cut off and rabbits fur removed on life rabbits.
    sorry, not a pleasant topic at all, but boy, it makes me both mad and sad and very very frustrated about the insensitivity and stupidity and greed of humankind.
    M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      That’s a terrible story. And it’s clear to me and very sad that animals such as the rhinoceros, tiger, etc, will soon be extinct in the wild. It seems impossible to stop destruction of habitat by development, poaching, trophy hunters etc, although I hope will efforts continue to be made. Efforts, of course, not supported by the Trump administration.

      I wanted to comment also I what you shared yesterday about your bank. That’s great you got such a satisfying response.
      Phil,

      • Phil says:

        After sharing a post here last week of what I would say to my mother I mentioned that some big feelings came up. It’s become increasingly clear to me that certain scenes from the past with my mother from when I was 8 and 11 are strongly connected to 1st line feelings, What comes up when I connect to those scenes goes way beyond what happened at that particular moment, or even what it sums up about my relationship with my mother.
        That’s an added reason why they are so difficult for me to resolve,. It’s very difficult to get to the exact nitty gritty of a particular memory when birth feelings are being also activated. Feelings of nausea and other body sensations come up, and there’s a feeling and theme of being stuck.
        I have been feeling hints of it since last week and when I wrote about my father, because he was there in some of those same scenes.
        Phil

        • Sylvia says:

          Hi Phil. All roads lead to Rome, don’t they. I had a lot of anxiety growing up but I know it started before that. Always was a nervous child. I remember terrible anxiety before dance class at age four being in front of people. Those feelings get an early start. Have felt a lot of fear feelings of someone going to get me, like the boogey man in my dreams, and burglars while awake. Probably are from early terror from baby sensations of being alone and afraid.
          Good luck with your early pains and needs.
          ( I bet this sounds weird to non-primal people.)
          S

    • Jack says:

      Margaret: There is only one reason why such a human desire occurs as “Greed”. I don’t think I need to tell you what that one reson is. I think and feel it speaks for itself.

      I reasoned that competition is not a natural and normal tendency in us humans. Yet competition abounds. It’s a win/lose situation. Why don’t we concentrate more on co-operation????? There is something in out psyche that is way, way amiss.

      I hope your studies might lead to you taking a lead on these matters. Just my thoughts of the moment reading your story about a caged Rhino. It both saddens and angers me. Now I need to go and express those feelings on my own as my Jimbo would not approve..

      Jack

  137. Margaret says:

    Phil,
    sounds like things are really on the move for you.
    but it also sounds like difficult feelings to deal with.
    you seem to be doing well though.
    M

  138. Phil says:

    Margaret,
    Yes, it’s about time. Better to have not had all this to begin with,
    but that’s how it is.

  139. Patrick says:

    I li

  140. Patrick says:

    Jeff

  141. Patrick says:

    This honestly makes me so mad I got Kollerstrom’s book from amazon and a whole bunch of others and not only about the ‘holocaust’. But the idea they will now shut this down……………the goys and the Judaics also or at least most of the dumb ones will be treated like mushrooms “Kept in the dark and fed plenty of shit” That’s it that’s what you are allowed to know. Gretchen can you tell me are you stupid or just pretending to be? Do you know something or are you just another naive and used Judaic or are you a lot more cynical?

    • Jack says:

      Jeez man, and now another one. Are they smelly to you?
      I just hope the smell does not drift in my direction.

      Maybe you should move over to county Kerry. Then you just might (only might) stand a chance.

      Jack

  142. Patrick says:

    What are

    • Jack says:

      Quote:- “What are they afraid of?”
      Not you … that’s for sure. You’ve lost ALL credibility on this blog … in case you ain’t yet caught on.

      Jack

  143. Well at least you are happy and grounded. Only 200,000 according to your guru? Yeah your right that’s nothing! By the way how did 200,000 die of starvation in the “resort camps? No room service or poolside delivery? We will have to discuss this at the next secret meeting of Jews, Gays and Gypsies ( by the way a Cher song was based loosely on our top secret meetings). It’s difficult of course to find a place where millions can discuss mind control and poison chemtrails but I’ve suggested my house. The Gays are bringing dessert. By the way I think the Gays were in charge of that whole Paul McCartney switcheroo so let’s not blame the Jews for everything. The reason Vicki and Leslie’s comments are so predictable to you is because you did in fact predict them. Isn’t that the truth ? This is what you do. You make despicable comments and then wait for everyone to hate you and when that’s not enough, like today, you up the ante. Do you wonder why you do this over and over in your life ? It’s interesting that for someone who says you want to be here, that you get something from the blog you certainly seem to be setting up a situation where you will be blocked. Maybe you like seeing yourself as a victim. If you go back over your comments I think you will see one thing over and over. When confronted with any truth, any fact that proves your theories to be incorrect you react in one or two ways ….always. You ignore whats been said as you can’t actually debate the facts or you resort to name calling and demeaning whoever it is that dared to have a different opinion than yours. Your response to Vicki was pretty disgusting not to mention adolescent. I won’t even go into the fact that you know little or nothing about her. G.

  144. P.s. I can assure you if Amazon made money on Kollerstrom they would sell his books. Of that I am certain. They sell plenty of controversial books. If they brought in millions or even thousands of dollars on his writing they would continue with him. It seems obvious that no ones buying.

    • Patrick says:

      What a lame attempt Gretchen. So they pulled all these ‘holocaust doubters’ book because they were not selling well. That there is a typical Judaic piece of nonsense……………….it has some kind of surface plausibility but on inspection has nothing of the truth. Par for the course just a lame attempt that of course fools the unwary.

  145. Sylvia says:

    I was reading Patrick’s comment on suicides. I was surprised to see that statistically there are some 40,000 suicides in America a year. So high. The white male over forty-five due to job loss and drug use and have been the highest increase age group over the years. So sad.

  146. Patrick says:

    Maybe this

    • Jack says:

      Should you be REALLY interested. Judaism was born in the lands of Arabs who’d been performing circumcision long before the creation of the very first of ‘monotheism’s.

      Remember Jesus was a Jew and I have no doubt he too (if he ever existed) was also circumscribed.

      It’s not per se, a Jewish thing.

      Jack

  147. Patrick says:

    Quote

  148. Ooooo the dark side….scary! Each year aprox 100 thousand Jews, 10 million Muslims and 9 million Africans are circumcised. The earliest record of circumcision was in Egypt over five thousand years ago. I realize this kind of puts a crimp in your theories but no matter just ignore it or decide it’s a lie. That seems to work for you. ” the soul will leave the body” ???? Okay….

    • Patrick says:

      I guess for people without a ‘soul’ that’s a strange way of talking. Not to me it isn’t. Judaics have been VERY instrumental in driving the soul out of life…and replacing it with a Shoah I suppose you could say. No business like Shoah business. And they will figuratively ‘burn the books’ of the few that are not buying it.

    • Patrick says:

      Jeanice

  149. Patrick says:

    Quote:

    • Larry says:

      “But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive opinions.” 2 Peter 2:1.

  150. Otto Codingian says:

    Womens marching! great! wish the latinos could, but then mr. trump will catch them and destroy their families.

  151. Patrick says:

    Below

    • JImbo alias Jac says:

      One more stab, I’m beginning to think it’s a WordPress

      Wow: Another; loooooooong flatulation.

      “Truth” and “fiction” is something that cannot be proven, either way; in any serious event. What one chooses as ‘truth’ or ‘fiction’ is dependent on one’s beliefs. One’s beliefs are dependent on what we got or didn’t get in terms of our needs, when we were vulnerable and unable to figure anything out … other than what we felt.

      Should you not feel this is how it all occurs, is what I feel everyone on this blog, feels you are so, so, so unable to grasp.

      Just remember; way before Copernicus and Galileo it was common knowledge that the earth was flat: we were at the center of the universe, and that everything swirled around US. Should you have lived in that time, you too would believe in the general consensus of the time.

      I demonstrate my point by suggesting that you are not even prepared to consider, society without money. That to my way of thinking demonstrates YOUR conventional thinking; al-be-it that you are convinced you are (somehow) way a head of some curve. As I see you, you ain’t.

      Jack

  152. Margaret says:

    this amount of craziness to start my day with is a bit nauseating.
    are certain things not illegal in the States?
    like repeatedly offending a whole group of people indistictly just because of their ethnicity?
    and wow, the dark side, Lucifer and replacing personalities, seems the straight jacket is coming closer and closer.
    I wish this kind of crap would disappear from this blog altogether.
    plenty of us would have other things to talk about if the atmosphere would not be so toxic and plainly delusional and so very aggressive.
    M

    • JImbo alias Jack says:

      Margaret: There is a problem with a straight banning of say Patrick. He would find another way to get back on. It’s not complicated.

      The best as I see it is what Gretchen already does; which is to delete his responses. That hurts him so bad, seemingly. I’m pretty sure Barry and Gretchen have discussed all this and know that a straight banning wouldn’t achieve the desired result.

      On the question of him creating a restriction to the rest of us … I grant can be a problem for many, but my feeling is to allow oneself to say what one feels the need to say … then re-act to anyone that attempts to insult or denigrade their posting.

      Sure! easier said than done … BUT, in so doing, I feel one is making great progress in therapy and the living of our lives. There will always be those that act-out by denigrating others.

      One last pont for me. I had a dream last night about Gretchen chastising me for the way I was dealing with my buddy. She kept saying and saying “you are doing it all wrong Jack. You need to talk in your normal voice and not in whispers”, when encouraging your buddy. I do my best to say as little as possible, but there are time when I feel just like whispering “Yeah” to let him/her know that I am still listing … and to give them what I feel could be encouragement to stay with that feeling. I do feel buddying is a great asset and a case in point is that this morning I got into a very deep feeling after last night sitting for one of my buddies, about me just being born, when my mother (told me) about the painful 9 hours labor she went through with me. I was a first born I couldn’t get out. It is/was a weird feeling and defies description. But sort of convultions, though I’m not even sure that is the right word.

      Jack

      • Erron says:

        Better yet, vet all posts before they are published. That to my mind is the problem here: people can spew any crap and it is instantly published. Forcing pre-approval would unfortunately create more work for whoever does the vetting, but perhaps Gretchen could appoint a moderator in this respect?

        • Phil says:

          Erron, I think it’s mainly Patrick’s posts which cause a problem. So, his posts could be put through the pre-approval process. Other people could be added if they become a problem too. People on good behavior would eventually be released. Reward and punishment, not primal therapy, but the blog isn’t really therapy is it.
          Jack, If Patrick was banned, but came back as somebody else, we would notice. I don’t think that would fool anyone. Also, it seems like he wants to say things in his own name.
          Phil

          • When anybody is upset by any posting, it might be best to harken back to the old Janovian classic, “That’s your feeling and the poster is not responsible for that.”

            • Erron says:

              I can tell you this: Arthur Janov on his blog, vets all posts before he allows them to see the light of day, and I’m quite sure none of Patrick’s posts would pass that. So, be careful quoting Janov…

              • We made a gentleman’s deal that we were going to discontinue all contact, didn’t we?
                Ugh, OK. I’m going to give you one response, Erron. What I wrote was not meant to be taken as a direct literal quote of Janov. I was referring to the old technique used on myself a long time ago where if I became upset by what someone said, senior Institute staff would tell me, “That’s your feeling and the verbalizing catalyst (such as a poster or group member) is not responsible for that”
                The Institute’s staff receiving training which filtered down at least partially from Janov’s old ways was why I referred to it as an old Janovian classic.

                After years and years of reading Janov’s books and blog items I made a decision to completely stop it cold several years ago. I’m very happy with this decision; his writings will no longer reach my light of day unless it filters indirectly through here.

                • Erron says:

                  Yes, I remember that old technique, dating from the very early days of primal. In my experience, it was most often used by therapists who were being defensive about being challenged on something.

                  Anyway, I think the example of how Janov himself would approach Patrick’s posts is more relevant than your quote, but then I guess that’s my feeling 😉

          • Larry says:

            For me the purpose of the blog is community and therapy.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Erron: that’s an idea but then who would be good to do the vetting. I feel it’s best to leave as is and I feel eventually Patrick will go away.

          However then there would be (perhaps) the need to vet me too. Ah well.

          Jack

  153. Margaret says:

    Gretchen,
    I really wonder why you let this go on, as it seems only to go from very bad to worse.
    why not try the suggestion of those guidelines Phil came up with long ago, and temporary bans after a warning?
    not in the least because this situation does not seem to be good for Patrick either, he seems to be going pretty nuts in trying to ‘win’ this struggle.
    and the blog is so full of crap it is becoming embarassing, I could not imagine inviting people over to investigate here.
    it would be very bad publicity and turn everybody off.
    and it definitely is not an inviting place anymore to share vulnerability and come for support.
    that we still do so is only thanks to the long history we have here and strong bonds that had already been made, but what about new people?
    M

  154. Margaret says:

    I just called the nursing home to let them know somebody was going to come by to check my mom for a new hearing aid.
    just to inform them.
    but the nurse I got on the phone started complaining about my mom being more restless now, as her medication had been stopped. she did admit that had been necessary as it was affecting her walking.
    i told her it had not been stopped really, the dose was diminished.
    but she seemed to be on a roll, complaining about silly things like about my mom occasionally taking one of the little adornments of the hallway into her room, or a knife or fork to put it in her drawer.
    how much trouble does that cause?
    the staff there, when we visit, does not complain to us, on the contrary.  they told us she has been joining the group lunch for the last couple of weeks, letting us know it was very good news.

    the nurse replied to me when I mentioned it, that that went well as there was a staff member present then, but that on other moments there was only 4 or 5 of them to take care of 21 patients.
    she said and there is also her cloths, sometimes she comes into the hallway in her underpants.
    I can only imagine this might have happened once or so, as every time we come there, and that is several times a week, she is nicely dressed so I feel very irritated about this nurse putting it all in such a bad daylight, and actually bringing up again she wants our mom to move to a ‘protected ward’.
    I should not let it keep making me tense, but I needed to write a bit about it here, as I don’t want to burden my brother with it now, and don’t want to call my sister about it right now either.
    will check with the persons taking care of my mom next tuesday, they seem ok with her really.
    that nurse sounded like she was in a bad mood, dumping on me while I called simply to let her know about the hearing aid.
    mom brining in an occasional Easter egg into her room, or a spoon or plate does not seem a sufficient reason to lock her up with people that are completely demented.
    she seems to be doing fine, is happy and yes, she can be a handful but has adjusted pretty well.
    before there were complaints about her going out on the street, now she does not do so anymore they come up with something else, it makes me feel tense and worried.
    will have to let go for this moment.
    M

  155. Phil says:

    I checked and saw that some leaders in Israel asked Jeff Bezos to remove denial books from Amazon and he complied, because maybe it’s the right thing to do and he doesn’t need that kind of bad publicity.

  156. Margaret says:

    phil,
    I heard Facebook and some others are also doing their best to remove fake news. if they receive a certain number of complaints about an its, they let a large group, 200 or so of journalist and university teachers control the item and its sources about its factual veridity.
    not a bad thing really.
    and of course some will scream conspiracy once more, like always when not backing up their confabulations.
    M book

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      In general Facebook may not be such a good thing. It’s programming feeds people more stories that they like, creating a bubble for them.. There’s definitely a lot of fake stuff that goes through and some of it can look believable if you don’t look at it closely.
      Phil

  157. Larry says:

    I feel uncomfortable at witnessing publicly Patrick’s deterioration. I feel enlightened but sad to see the depth and entrenchment of his illness. I wish for him that he could find some real relief. I suppose his cyclic unloading his fears here helps keep him from barking on street corners or worse.

    • Phil says:

      Patrick,
      Those books removed for sale by Amazon are probably available elsewhere but probably not as convenient downloads to your Kindle.
      You say they provide a lot of reading pleasure, but don’t they also activate you?
      You seem to want everyone convinced of your truth. Isn’t that a hopeless task trying to get everyone to agree with you?
      Other than your reading pleasure how does all of this effect you? Is there any other way it directly effect your life? Is someone threatening you with circumcision?

  158. Phil says:

    “Even in Israel more and more parents choose not to circumcise their sons”

    http://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/even-in-israel-more-and-more-parents-choose-not-to-circumcise-their-sons-1.436421

    I saw that there is also a Jews against circumcision facebook group

  159. A quick search using the term “Holocaust” on Amazon revealed 39,000 books and movies.

    65 or so books were banned. This means 99.8% (38,900 books/movies) of all books on the topic were “OK” and 0.2% (65 books) were not “OK”.

    A thought exercise question: What if Amazon had a total of one book in its entire selection discussing the Holocaust in an affirmatory tone and absolutely nothing else in its selection (including denial books)?

    Would people find it more disconcerting, objectionable, and disempowering having one single book in the entire gigantic Amazon stock as compared to having 38,900 good books/movies and 65 bad books? Why or why not?

    • Phil says:

      Guru,
      It’s interesting how often you want to put things in numerical terms. i wonder what percentage of your posts that would be, maybe 50% or 60% of them it would be.

      • Phil says:

        A large percent of my posts have errors; Probably 90% or more. I want to rewrite my last one.
        Guru,
        It’s interesting how often you want to put things in numerical terms. i wonder what percentage of your posts that would be, maybe 50% or 60% of them?

      • That doesn’t answer my question, Phil. Please take a good look at the final passage of my last post and let me know a thoughtful answer? What if there was one Holocaust book in Amazon’s entire stock (even if it was an excellent book)? Would or should people find that circumstance more disconcerting, objectionable, or disempowering than having 38,900 good books/movies and 65 bad books in stock?

        • Phil says:

          Guru,
          Yes, it is more disconcerting to know there were 65 Holocaust denial books rather than zero or one. To me it means there are quite a few anti-semites and/or neo-nazis around. There are many books on the Holocaust and World War II because those were major events in our recent history. That there are many books which tend to agree on the Holocaust means that the information is much more reliable than if there were only one or a few. I think there are many sources of information which have been independently researched. So it is not all just copy cat writing. Movies, I think, are not normally thought to be good sources of information, even documentaries.
          Phil

          • Thank you for trying to answer my question the best way you knew how, Phil. I am cancelling this thought exercise now. The exercise was designed to introduce new abstract concepts relating to limited information which can be potentially incredibly degrading, damaging, and dangerous. Most people don’t seem to grasp these sorts of ephemerals very well, and I am realizing what a frustrating slog it would be for me to try to teach others on this matter..

            Thank you, anyway.

  160. Margaret says:

    I just got a call from the doctor who looks after my mom.
    she said she had diminished mom’s medication a few weeks ago from 50 to 25 mg, but now as there were some complaints about her , specially on moments she does not get personal attention, she will increase the dose to 37,5 mg. so it will be still lower than the former dose, but 3/4 instead of half as much.
    she will keep an eye on it, so I did agree as I feel ok about her informing me,and she needs to cope with the ones complaining.
    i told her how surprised I am as mom is always dressed and ok every time we arrive, so I said I thought it might be an exceptional one time event she went into the corridor with too little cloths on.
    but well, she has to listen to everyone and if there is one or two persons there complaining she needs to find ways to deal with the situation of course.
    she did agree mom is not difficult when someone is around for her, the difficulties seem to occur when she has to keep herself busy and wanders around, rearranging stuff or ocasionally entering someone’s room.

    i still think someone is exagerrating as the few times we told her to go into a room to hand out some chocolates, she was very reluctant and shy, fearing not to be welcome.
    but maybe if she wakes up early morning or so she is confused, hard to tell, we will ask the nurses of her floor the next time for more details as they did not mention any problem lately to us, on the contrary.
    I did speak to my sister earlier today and she too was upset as she sees less and less problems with my mom and no need to move her to a protected ward certainly.
    the doctor did not mention that option.
    now of course with the medication being lowered there might be some kind of countereffect which makes mom more active, the doctor agreed that might be possible, so diminishing the dose at a lower pace might be a good solution, hopefully.
    part of the problem is the current understaffed situation in many nursing homes.
    specially people like my mom who are fysically fit require more attention than someone in a wheelchair, or a different kind of attention.
    but she seems still fairly reasonable and able to enjoy life, so no way we will agree to have her locked up with people who can’t even communicate anymore.
    have to set my mind off it a bit as there is nothing I can do at this point.
    I just called my mom and she sounded fine, and that is what matters.
    hopefully things go well.
    M

  161. Guru , I think you should instead discuss the upset you have about so little being written about car accidents. I don’t think this has anything to do with how many books have been written on the Holocaust or Holocaust denial. I have the feeling that you think if less was written about the Holocaust or 911 for example that more would be written about car accidents. I don’t think that’s the case. In any case why not be a little more direct about what you are trying to say. G.

    • Gretchen: I never said that if less was written about World War II events or the 2001 events, they would automatically be backfilled with continuous automobile collision coverage. For all I know in this crazy, dangerous world it would have been replaced by Kim Kardashian coverage. Donald Trump does his share filling it all out too, doesn’t he?

      I have nothing more to say on the numerous abstract matters related to all of this. For now, at least.

  162. Sylvia says:

    I’ve heard on the news and found a couple of articles that Beta-blockers heart medicine can affect racism which makes me think that racism is biological. For a short period of time my Dr. wanted me to try a beta -blocker because every time I came to the office my pulse would be at 120 and stay there for a couple of hours. I’m glad to say that no longer happens. But for the short time I was on this medicine I did feel a little more open emotionally.

    This article, if it comes through, will explain a little about the effect it has. If it doesn’t and you are interested, google ‘beta-blockers and racism.’
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/health/news/9129029/Blood-pressure-drug-reduc

  163. Phil says:

    Sylvia,
    That’s very interesting. I found the article and read it over quickly. It says that propranolol has that effect because of “blocking activation of the peripheral autonomic nervous system, and in areas of the brain involved with formulating emotional responses, including fear, called the amygdalae”.
    It sounds like it makes people a little more conscious while they are on it. It can block “implicit” racism. So if you were feeling a little more emotionally open it might be because your feelings were blocked. Maybe also a kind of indirect corroboration of the connection Dr Janov has found between blood pressure and primalling.

    • Phil says:

      Sylvia
      I made a mistake there. I meant to say it sounds like it makes people a little less conscious while they are on propranolol, more unconscious.

      • Sylvia says:

        Yes Phil, it seems to take away some fear and adrenalin isn’t over-stimulating the heart.
        In the Huffington post article it explained more. It’s entitled: Heart pill ‘Makes people less racially prejudiced.’
        And as you were saying about fear, it says:
        “Scientists, ethicists and psychiatrists at Oxford University discovered the connection after investigating the psychological effect the heart drug had on patients’ prejudice attitudes.
        Researchers believe that propranolol reduces implicit racial bias because such bias is based on automatic, subconscious fear–the exact nerves which are blocked when the beta-blocker pill is taken.
        …Our results offer new evidence about processes in the brain that shape implicit racial bias.”

        So it would seem to me that fear grows into an ideation of something ‘out there’ instead of recognizing it as a fear already tucked deep inside of us. S

        • Phil says:

          Sylvia,
          I wonder why it would be only fear. I will have to save the Huffington post article until later. Thanks for sharing this, it seems very relevant.

          • Sylvia says:

            Phil, I’ve also heard that performers use it to quell anxiety. I recall an article that Chuck Mangione, the trumpet player, would take a beta-blocker before going on stage. Maybe anxiety, though, is a part of fear.

    • Sylvia says:

      Phil, just an aside note; I did feel a little more social taking a pill but also felt a little less defended against pain, things hurt more emotionally and deeper, and it was a time I was just beginning to let myself have feelings. Maybe second line was more available and it quieted first line down. Just took a very small dose for a couple of weeks.
      Maybe the “Tea Party” republicans should include it in their get-togethers, hah.
      S

  164. Jack says:

    I posted two comments on the blog withing the last 24 hours … yet when I go to look for them I don’t see them.

    Have I been banned ???????

    The first was in response to Patrick, and the second was, in part, a response to Margaret.

    So this is a test to see if I’m banned.

    Jack

  165. Jack says:

    Will someone tell me if my posts are getting though?
    I’ve now sent three within the last 24 hours … yet when I try to see them they are no-where to be found

    Help!!!! Is it me, my lap-top or some conspiracy going on with Amazon.com??

    Jack

  166. Phil says:

    Jack,
    I’m seeing your posts. I’m glad to see you haven’t been eliminated.

  167. Margaret says:

    I could not open the one link and was warned about the other possibly not being safe, so I did not take the risk.
    but I remember learning in one of the courses of neuropsychology about betareceptors, and how betablockers occupy some of them so indeed less neurotransmitters of the kind of adrenaline can have their full effect.
    I remember after having changed my medication months earlier from betablockers to something else, my doctor told me some people experience the effect of them as , well, the effect of them being stopped as if a glasss stolp has been lifted off, the world becoming more present.
    I was glad I had already stopped taking them, even though I had diminished the dose gradual already.
    now I take a low dose of a product that sends more blood to the small veins and so diminishes blood pressure in a less invasive way.
    but I will check out that product more anyway, was already planning to do so.
    now I can imagine a direct response can be diminished in a confrontation with someone from a different race, but prejudices like you know whose would not change I fear.
    maybe some of the drive would slightly diminish, ha!

    Gretchen, I hope i did not irritate you with my comment, earlier on, hm, you know how I tend to worry, the old rejection fear, smiley.
    it is showing its ugly head as you did not reply but that is ok as we have talked about this before already.
    just want to be as open about it all as possible.
    M

  168. Larry says:

    In response to Sylvia’s comment on beta blockers, I’ve read a few reports of research studies that imply that conservatives tend to be more fearful and more tribal than liberals, which correlates with differences in the size of their amygdala.

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21428590-200-political-divides-begin-in-the-brain/

    https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg22630152-100-how-your-biology-could-overrule-you-when-voting/

    • Sylvia says:

      That all makes sense Larry. For the good of society we have defenders and for the soul we have artists. I guess when one side takes control thinking their talents are more important then we go awry. But I do think artists have more fun.
      S

    • Phil says:

      Larry,
      I noticed that one article mentioned identical twins studies, that the twins were correlated but otherwise no mention is made of childhood history that I could see.
      childhood history=biology=emotions + opinions Too bad that first part isn’t included.

    • Patrick says:

      Larry I thought you were going to say it correlates with the size of their genitals. It would make about as much sense! To me is shows how when people have no power politically or reduce themselves to having no power we end up with nonsense like this. It’s all ‘brain chemicals’ etc etc…………………its NOT!

  169. Larry says:

    I’m working only 2.5 days a week now. Lots of spare time on my hands. Sometimes, in the work part of the week, I get excited by the possibilities of what I could do in retirement only 7 weeks away. Then in the other part of the week, as soon as I leave the workplace, I freeze, weighed down by loneliness, uncertainty, fear. I sit at home busy on the computer, but really I’m afraid to leave my chair. Good thing that I can sink into the feelings bit by bit, so empty, that chain me down.

    [Verse 1]
    I don’t know where I belong
    No I don’t know
    But I’ve been hanging on
    For too long
    ‘Cause no one really knows me, at all
    I’ve been spending time
    ‘Cause time’s on my side
    And if I make it home
    When our worlds collide
    ‘Cause no one really knows me, at all

    [Instrumental Break]

    [Verse 2]
    I don’t know where I belong
    No I don’t know
    But I’ve been hanging on
    For too long
    ‘Cause no one really knows me, at all
    So help me find my way
    The way I came from
    ‘Cause I’m feeling lost and afraid
    You better not be too far gone
    Oh, have I been so wrong
    Missed the song
    Still I don’t know where I belong
    No I don’t know
    Because no one really knows me, at all
    Yeah, no one really knows me, at all

  170. We tend to remember being told ” that’s your feeling” and of course not noticing the times it wasn’t your feeling and therefor nothing was said. Hopefully we are told that when in fact it is your feeling and might be helpful to consider. That being said there are times it isn’t a feeling but a real reaction to something in the present. G.

    • Otto Codingian says:

      no reply

    • Otto Codingian says:

      i would say something about that,but it would be gloomy, so goodnight.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen:- I am not sure I fully understand this comment of yours.
      My take is that you were referring to the old days when everything was considered an “old feeling”
      If indeed you meant that; then I agree. If you meant something else I am somewhat mystified.
      I see it ALL as the expression of feelings, BUT I agree that not everything goes back to early childhood. My example would be:- “I don’t like Donald Trump”. That a pure feeling, as I see it, but it’s in the presrnt. Hope I don’t appear to be nit picking.

      Jack

  171. Otto Codingian says:

    margaret what is the drug that sends more blood to the small veins?

  172. Otto Codingian says:

    Patrick, beautiful reply! Short and to the point! In my opinion, which is pretty much meaningless, more of that, and less of the long stuff. “Ah eff you Larry and all your ‘moralism’. Stick your ‘religion’ and leave me alone. I have a ‘better religion’ at least for me. I do not need your condescension and your bogus psych talk”. (no offense, larry) Patrick, I can’t remember if you have a brogue or not, but i am imagining one. Actually i am seeing the face of some famous, probably Irish, actor in my mind, no idea who that is, but he probably looks like you, or you, him. Now you leave the J’s alone. They get enough hate as it is. And like the South Koreans and Japanese, they live near big haters with A-bombs.

    • Larry says:

      No offense taken, Otto.

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – ‘beautiful’ or not that was ‘erased’ by Gretchen also. Go figure

    • Patrick says:

      Otto – they have lots of A bombs themselves and supposedly all the major capitals of Europe are in their cross hairs……………..if they ‘misbehave’ they can get it and the Europeans know what. Only so far you can go in criticizing these monsters as you can see here also…………..in a ‘small’ way………

  173. I will be erasing the relevant comments made by Patrick this evening. I have made it endlessly clear I don’t want the rhetoric on this blog. As I predicted recently we are now getting bible passages for answers to legitimate questions. This really concerns me. I actually don’t care what Patrick believes nor do I want to change his mind. What I do care about is whether the blog is helpful to all involved and that there be an exchange of ideas. We don’t all need to agree but if I say something you .dont agree with I would hope you would say so and then we can discuss our different viewpoints. That is not happening here. There are pronouncements at which point any disagreement or frankly proof that the thinking is off is met with name calling or short of that the comment is ignored as it is clear there is no defense. This is not helpful for anyone. Also when others have a differing opinion more often than not it is said with some degree of respect and not set before us like some kind of hateful bait as is the case with Patrick.
    I get that these things can disintegrate at times, maybe once , twice or three times but in this case it is constant. But….. more important than any of this is that I don’t see this as helpful for Patrick. We are simply pawns in a game that has existed from day one. There are few here that having heard Patrick discuss his history are not aware of the obvious re- creation. Patrick has said this is all very helpful for him . I have a hard time believing that based on what I see as ever increasing rage and disintegration. I wish Patrick would get some help but he sees himself as the only speaker of truth. He is the only one who sees reality and it his job to educate us all. The delusions of grandeur are off the chart at this point and the blog seems to be fuel. As I said previously we can’t ignore that despite there being a call for a ban he continues. I will assume this is the end result he wants. I’m going to ask that you leave Patrick and we can re-evaluate where you are in a month or two. I will give you the opportunity to respond to this but then it’s best you go. I would suggest you go to friends and ask for feedback. It’s hard to imagine that others don’t see how off the rails you have gone. Maybe you can hear feedback from those you are close to. Too many have described you as a bully for there not to be some truth in it. I would suggest you consider that. Gretchen

    Sent from my iPad

    Sent from my iPad

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – that’s very typical ‘squirrely talk’ when things get anywhere near the bone (truth) clever clever WORDS just as the Yav Vashem or whatever they call themselves get to ban books on a massive scale. Same play different actors. VERY clever at shutting people down and of course ‘it’s your feeling’ was VERY useful for that. So when I asked in group as I did for the ‘truth’ about what was happening at the time about Dr Michael Holden I was told in no uncertain terms “it was my feeling and NO information would be forthcoming” Much the same as the suicides started that’s when I had to ‘quit’ the place. I came back here yes and I liked it and even still like it mostly. More freedom now but of course Gretchen now wants to put a stop to that too. I made connections yesterday between circumcision and the “Jewish disease” but that was erased by Gretchen also. I think that is a VERY important topic and actually opens a door where Judaics themselves might start to look at their inglorious history. Also it might mean IF they stop it other people would be less persecuted. WHAT EXACTLY is wrong with saying that Gretchen?

      • Erron says:

        Gee Gretchen, it’s working a treat so far…

      • Vicki B. says:

        I almost posted to Patrick and then changed my mind to “No” (as he’s told me he would prefer I not say anything to him), and then back to “Yes”, so I’m not clear about “Why bother?” He’s closer now to sounding like a madman ranting on a street corner.

        As for Michael Holden, I didn’t hear much at first, but I kind of thought it was none of my business anyway — he was not a therapist, after all, he had only been a patient. But later, news of him did come out, it was a bit surprising to me, but did not seem like a big mystery, just sad. But it sounds like Patrick thinks it was some conspiracy secret.

        And again, we know there were not in fact as many suicides as Patrick desperately wants to believe there were, there were just a few, maybe 3-5. One I knew personally, and a couple of others I knew of, and I assume there could be a couple more I didn’t hear of, but not 20 (as Patrick said), no way. We have discussed that in detail here long ago, more than once. But why so much lack of trust, Patrick? A conspiracy, really?

        But what’s the point of saying it all again, which I have just done. Patrick, do you believe that if you keep shouting these things at us, that some one here will suddenly tell you you’re correct? Is that your hope?

        • Patrick says:

          OMG about suicides I gave you EIGHT NAMES already!! I worked with THREE of them on quite a few moving jobs! No need to talk about ‘conspiracies’ it’s just a word and you use it just as a put down. There was no ‘conspiracy’ about Dr Michael Holden let’s keep to the truth here……………………..all I said is I went to group to get some information on his ‘conversion’ to some very extreme form of Christianity after all he was a very big influence in PT at the time and all I got was “what’s the feeling, what does it mean to you etc etc. They would not tell me ANYTHING. So as a somewhat veteran of kind of political groups in Ireland and the UK I thought this is the WORST. This fails ALL standards of openness or transparency. I felt at that moment there was no point in going there anymore and I did not I dropped out. Talking about failing standards of open ness that is what we are STILL dealing with today. Banning books while yakking about so called “Nazis” who burned some pornography once or twice. But keep on keeping on be a MUSHROOM

          • Jack Waddington says:

            I may not have this correct BUT I feel Gretchen is correct in the number of suicides whilst current patients, OR maybe that committed suicide at the institue buliding. I know there were more suicides by EX patients. If one want to count the ‘Ex patients’ in the mix, then I feel it is incumbent on those expousing that notion to make that clear. (A perfect of example of what is deemed spin)

            I have said and will repeat:- all the suicides were people that contemplated it way before they even decided to do Primal Therapy … and was perhaps why they decided to do it in the first place. It was there one last hope IMO

            I doubt Patrick would attempt to clear this up. He, seemingly, need to be “right’ and that as I see it is one of his major problems.

            I do feel that for an unknown reason; that Patrick seems to be leaving his attempted insults away from me. That neither pleases me nor bothers me … just my observation.

            Jack

            • Erron says:

              I don’t know about the Institute, but here in Australia, the early primal centres took just about anyone, including many whom therapists these days would probably consider too vulnerable or damaged, with sometimes disastrous results.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Erron: Yeah !!!!! that I feel is why Art Janov wanted all therapist practicing in his name, or that of Primal Therapy to have been ‘intensively’ trained by him or his designated staff.

                Primal therapy cannot be practiced solely by someone just having read the idea, however hard they STUDY it. It requires feeling and thus knowing a great deal about the nature of feelings. It was just this factor that I found to be very convincing. I too did ask that I be considered to be taken into orientation. My therapist at the time did tell me that my name had come up at a staff meeting BUT it was considered, at that time, I was not ready. I was never given any further information why it was considered I was not ready, nor did I ask.

                Jack

          • Vicki says:

            I don’t think you really did give us 8 names of suicides already. I think you’re making that up now, by changing your guesses to “alternative facts”. I remember you once named a few names, but one or two were like you weren’t sure, “maybe it was Maria” or something similar to that,. Two-1/2 years ago, you said, “I have said many time I know personally of 5”. And even your now hypothetical eight is not 20, which you glibly stated recently, yet again. But there is a bigger point to all these recycled numbers and fact-checking (as Daniel’s fine post recently reminded me), which I don’t want to miss.

            You are inflating and sensationalizing your so-called “evidence”, trying to hyperventilate some point about PT being dangerous, or bad, or of doubtful value. You want to alarm people as to “what’s wrong with P.T.” in your view, that you feel the P.I. must “take care of” patients (as if they were parents), and you can’t accept that patients who seriously refuse to help themselves, really can’t be saved. But in fact P.T. “didn’t work for you” because you got mad and left, and didn’t stick with it, and didn’t really work at it, but instead have chosen to blame “the therapy”. You consistently have refused to consider that you might be mistaken in your views of just about everything — which is just what you have done here on the Blog. Literally hundreds of times, many of us have tried every way we can think of, to tell you that — all rejected by you. So you just go your own way.

            • Patrick says:

              Sorry I HAVE to respond to this first off you know I am banned so I suppose you feel safe now in bagging on me. I have to keep it short since I am banned I am fine with ‘therapy’ as it works for me. It’s just I feel the ‘version’ done by the PI leaves a lot to be desired which was ALWAYS true now and in the past. You go on about how ‘follow’ the therapy and I have given up on it. Au contraire Madam it seems to me it is you who has given up to the point you sit in your high chair talking primal theory and you are obviously a very unwell woman. Like Jack ALL fucking theory just a head trip to bolster yourself that you ‘know’ something. The other stuff you write is recycled nonsense LOOK IT UP i gave 8 NAMES 3 who I worked with with NAMES. I mentioned some other ‘names’ I was not sure of but recalled one later “Marina’ it was a beautiful Australian girl GOD HAVE MERCY ON HER SOUL while hypocritical liars like you and Jack are still ‘alive’ it you can call it that.

              • Vicki says:

                I did not feel safe on commenting to you, no, as Gretchen asked you to leave, but I don’t assume that you really respect her. I don’t believe you are “fine with ‘therapy’ as it works” for you, because you came back yet quickly left angry when you didn’t like the retreat and the groups. You said that after you came in 1978, you left the 1st time “around 1982” (because “you LOSE someone to suicide and nobody seems to give a shit” and “one of the suicides was a shy girl I was shyly planning to ask out. Killed herself NO reaction from the PI, NO big meeting” “and I suffered a lot behind being ‘gone’ but better be gone than dead was my attitude at that time.”). Gretchen responded to your comments when you wrote them, but you could not accept what she told you, as the truth, so you’ve been calling her a liar ever since.

                All that means you’re not “fine with therapy”. Instead you have stayed here yet behave “boorishly” (I did look it up). You say you gave 8 names, I didn’t find them — look it up yourself! And your upper-case SHOUTING proves nothing except that you seem to feel it’s outrageous I don’t believe you, but I don’t, and I am not a hypocritical liar.

  174. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    Lisinopril.
    one of the i’s might have to be a ‘y’.
    will look the details up later on if possible.
    M

  175. Margaret says:

    I am so glad some boundaries are being set.

    as a kid I could have used more rules in some areas, … setting boundaries is a way of caring, educating.
    it is a fine line to find but there definitely needs to be one imo.

    on another note, I heard about a new device, the Orcam, a pair of glasses which can instantly scan any text, or recognize faces it learned to know,and give the audio information through the part near the ears.
    with a textbook it reacts to your finger being put on a page to scan it and turn it into audio.
    also menus, road signs, text on phone or computer screens, all can be transposed in one glance.

    it sounds like such a useful tool, but so far it still costs around 3000 dollar or more.
    but still, it sounds interesting, and I will try to find out more about it and try it out.
    M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,
      I’m also glad about the boundaries. A month or two isn’t that long; maybe he’ll want to come back in a different way.
      I think technology is advancing very rapidly and those Orcam glasses sound amazing.

  176. Daniel says:

    If one would like to understand why people are concerned and even try to put hurdles in the way of those disseminating the ideas included in Holocaust denying literature, he or she need not go any further than reading Patrick’s posts. As others here have pointed out we see before our very eyes the escalation – or deterioration – over time of these hateful ideas. The more Patrick reads this literature the stronger his fear and hate grows.

    It is by now obvious that had some power would like to bar Jews from certain aspects of public life, restrict them to an isolated or segregated area, or expel them altogether, that power would find in Patrick not only general sympathy but downright support if not ardent cheerleading or even active participation. It is also obvious that by then 1st through nth amendments of any constitution anywhere in the free world, whose name is now vehemently taken in vain, will quickly be sidelined, forgotten or argued against for the achievement of the greater good of purifying society once again by ridding itself of the poisonous parasites that are bent on destroying it.

    It’s that last part (the actions) rather than the first (the opinions) that we worry about. In other words, we fear that Jew-hating isn’t just a statement of fact but a declaration of intent. This is a point Hanna Arendt made in her book ‘The Origin of Totalitarianism’. She noted how decent liberals of 1930’s Germany would fact-check the Nazis’ bizarre claims about Jews as if they were meant to be factual in the first place. For example, when someone would blame the Jews for Germany’s defeat in WW1, naïve people would counter by saying there’s no evidence of that. What these liberals failed to understand, Arendt suggests, is that the Nazis were not describing what was true, but what would have to be true to justify what they planned to do next.

    By the way, according to this article from the LA times, this wouldn’t be the first time Amazon removed items from its store, mostly for violating Amazon’s guidelines prohibiting the sale of products that “promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious intolerance”. Past items included Confederate flags and memorabilia, door and dog mats emblazoned with the word Allah, and an Indian flag doormat.

    • Daniel says:

      By the way, Arendt’s argument can be applied to Donald Trump and his administration. Did 3 million “illegals” cast votes in this election? Clearly not. But fact checking is just a way of playing along with their game. What Trump is saying is not just that 3 million illegals voted. What he may be saying is: I’m going to steal the voting rights of millions of Americans.

    • Patrick says:

      I have not read Hannah Arendt but she is associated with the phrase “the banality of evil”………….which a lot of people including me I suppose were impressed with. But actually I think there is a better explanation most “Nazis” who were about to hanged had been tortured to ‘confess’ and they were NOT comsumed with guilt for the simple reason they had not done anything wrong. Arendt read something into it that was simply not there. But I believe she is one of the better Judaics and I do think with the information she was working with albeit wrong information she made an honest attempt at ‘understanding’

  177. Patrick says:

    Daniel – you make some good points as always but I feel (as always?) they are sort of over ridden by the bad points. Anyway I would like you to consider this as also it is written by a guy with ‘skin in the game’ Dr Kollerstrom. This ban is very serious as amazon in now a monopoly in the true sense. It is interesting I in my own small way am dealing with something similar here. I do not accept it is legitimate………………….if comparisons with circumcision and Judaic thoughts and actions are not legitimate and this on a blog that is SUPPOSED to be about childhood trauma and it’s EFFECTS! That get’s banned so we can all go back and put our heads in the sand. Just as we were forced to do through Dr Michael Holden’s ‘dis-integration’ as the jargon here has it. We can all go back to hearing about Margaret’s cats and how Jack wants to ‘abolish money’ That pretty ‘safe’ I suppose but opening up circumcision and i’ts role in the “Jewish cult” is not…………………….does not sound right to me. And it’s amazing also as ‘free speech’ is about to be clamped down I have no ‘defender’ even the poor Guru all he can manage is a bit of mathematical mental masturbation..

    http://terroronthetube.co.uk/2017/03/09/banned-by-amazon/

    • JImbo alias Jack says:

      This AGAIN my second attempt to post this. WordPress seems to have something against me.

      Patrick: Your problem IMO on the blog is not the freedom to speak, but the kind of speach you utter/write … it’s not so Thouless (not clueless; and I think you know what I mean). You are onto some crusade as I read you, BUT (maybe my lack of education) I am not able to fathom just what that crusade is. I too see MY culture as something that does NOT serve me. If you feel your culture serves you; that’s fine by me. However, to be so outraged (as it seems) by someone else’ culture is questionable. I feel (just MY feeling, that is all) you would serve your cause/crusade better, if you were to be more clear.

      You sure are well read and have some talents, that in the past I have acknowledged, BUT “clarity” is not one of them. I personally would not classify all Jews by what the current Israeli government is doing. Nor would I even suggest that the current Israeli government is representative of the Jewish culture. I personally would like to see ALL “cultures” take less presidence in how people see themselves and especially how they see others.

      My example is:- in looking at the “Gay” culture or better stated, us gays. I don’t think we are a particularly special, even normal (by whatever one might consider “being normal”) or even to some; likable. I see clearly why many have hated us … and not without reason. For me I would prefer to ‘take’ and re-act, to each person individually, as I encounter them. And my feelings about them could change as our encounters progressed.

      My last point upon this matter. ‘Money’ is the GLUE that keeps us humans neurotic IMO. It’s sad and MY main crit of you Patrick is that you are a very sad person. I base most of it in knowing and working with you for the 25 years I did.

      Jack

  178. Patrick says:

    See now the ‘logic’ of these NON events about phone calls to Jewish centers and the lame cemetery ‘events’ (badly maintained graveyards) leads to this massive ‘thought ban’ like a really big effect achieved through a small non event. That IS Judaic manipulation for you and if people cannot see that?……………..and ‘banning’ me is just more of it. It is NOT ‘legitimate’ and I do NOT accept it. It’s like being told LEAVE the group room because someone does not like your ideas

  179. Patrick says:

    I decide to ‘learn’ a bit about Judaism and follow the feasts when they happen so I understand more. Now apparently the festival of Purin in starting. From Wikipedia

    Purim (/ˈpʊərɪm/; Hebrew: About this sound פּוּרִים‎ (help·info) Pûrîm “lots”, from the word פור‎ pur,[2] related to Akkadian: pūru) is a Jewish holiday that commemorates the saving of the Jewish people from Haman, who was planning to kill all the Jews. This took place in the ancient Achaemenid Persian Empire. The story is recorded in the Biblical Book of Esther (מגילת אסתר‎ Megillat Ester in Hebrew).

    According to the Book of Esther, Haman, royal vizier to King Ahasuerus/Achashverosh (presumed to be Artaxerxes I of Persia, “Artakhsher” in Old Persian [3][4][5][6]), planned to kill all the Jews in the empire, but his plans were foiled by Mordecai and his cousin and adopted daughter Esther, who had risen to become Queen of Persia. The day of deliverance became a day of feasting and rejoicing.”

    See these ‘stories’ about how all the Jews are going to be killed have been going on a LONG TIME. Either they are ‘stories’ or if they are ‘real’ one would wonder why people feel so murderous towards them. Could it be something they have done……………………….NAH!!

  180. Larry says:

    One would wonder why people want Patrick banned. Could it be something he has done. NAH.

  181. Margaret says:

    well, most of us do understand that the correlation makes sense in simply reflecting the level of continuous fear/anxiety, tension and therefor possible hostility to groups, in some people, which makes it more a matter of childhood and upbringing and environment than of genetic biological fate.
    it is interesting these high levels of fear are relating with variables like racism .
    just a fact, open for all kinds of further investigation.
    and an interesting example of how emotion and specially long term states have their physical mirror and behavioural and attitudinal correlations.
    it is just that, so much more sense to find in what primal experience can tell us about the individual details of each story.
    too bad that apart of that the upbringing in an environment of hate towards certain groups, race, or political or else, can be deeply engraved in those kids world views and are so very hard to alter.
    only an open education might be of help, and a variety of friendships..
    M

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: If “open education” were capable of achieving what you suggest … I feel that would have already happened. To and for me; no form of education is going to achieve that. I say this since I see educators as being part of our “NEUROTIC” culture.

      Jack

  182. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    just looked up Lisinopril.
    it works by influendncing the funtion of an enzyme that increases blood pressure.
    but it needs to be checked with a doctor as it can have interactions with other medication, and kidney function etc. have to be taken in consideration. on the otther hand it is sometimes prescribed to people with diabetes.
    it has a very extended list of information and indications and warnings, so if you are interested I would talk about it with your regular physician.
    i must say reading about all the possible side effects is always a bit disconcerting, even tough chances on some of these effects are very slim.
    luckily I have not detected one side effect in me so far, but I have diminisched the dose while following up by measuring my blood pressure daily and am now on a regular low dose.
    take good care of yourself, we want you around for say at least three more decades?
    I’ll be about 90 myyself by then, ha!
    M

  183. Margaret says:

    ha, he is such a drame queen, always playing the poor innocent victim after going out of his way first to set humself up by being as rude and obnoxious as possible.
    maybe that is his goal, to be able to play the victim?
    M

  184. Daniel says:

    Patrick, as the American supreme court judge Oliver Wendel Holmes once wrote in a verdict, protection of free speech does not include the freedom to falsely shout fire in a theater, and some of your ideas and the ideas of those you follow are, as I was trying to show in my previous comment and as most people in the free world know, just that. Amazon carries a heavy burden of responsibility which is expressed in its guidelines which were violated by the publications in question. And the same goes for this blog.

    You don’t seem to understand what is wrong with the connection you make between, for example, circumcision and ‘Jewish cult’, traits, and other abominations you and others ascribe to them. The mere fact that you can’t see any problem with such a stance is testimony that something very troubling is happening to your thought processes. Just compare it with Chris P. He too was outraged by circumcision, any circumcision by whomever. It was clear that Chris hates the practice and believes it causes physical and psychological damage. He didn’t use it to single out Jews or anybody else, and didn’t find general ethnic malevolent qualities attached to it. Therefore, his stance was and is legitimate while yours – which does single our Jews and does> attach extreme negative ethnic qualities, in other words ‘shouting fire’ in a theater – is not.

    You say you want to learn, to know things rather than succumb to the education you received and I applaud that. Really. However, you should be honest with yourself and have intellectual integrity. If your motivation for learning is to find faults with Jews and refute their history and identity, then real learning would first and foremost be to ask yourself: Why do I need to find faults with Jews or negate their history? It is that need that would be the first object of inquiry, and the answer to that question would constitute real, valuable and lasting learning.

    If, for example, your disappointment in Janov, PT or the PI is part of it, had you stuck to that you would have raised issues that are universal and so very important to all of us, issues that would have enriched this blog and, I think, command the respect of blog members: Who can we trust and why should we? What does it take to make a leap of faith? How do we deal with disappointment, with our diminishing opportunities as we grow old, with loss, with loneliness? What happened to the promises life/parents/spouses/therapy held for us but failed to fully deliver? Where did the environment around us failed us and where was it us who failed ourselves? What is the nature of responsibility in the personal sphere and who should bear it? What is hope? How much love and hate did we receive and how much of these did we spread around?

    One can go on. It’s a shame and a loss that bigoted channels were preferred.

  185. Margaret says:

    Daniel,
    that is such a good post you wrote.
    if only Patrick could take some of it in..I fear he will be very selective once more in designing blames .
    i wonder when he started losing touch with his own set of suppositions and lies that were useful for his ‘hidden ‘ agenda, and started taking them for truths.
    not so many years ago he was actually critical about people he referred to as antisemites ..
    at least that is what he said back then.
    i feel he has used controversy for so long he does not see reality anymore, while at first it was just a tool.
    but well, it does not matter if he does not want to see or hear.
    M

  186. Margaret says:

    jack,
    I mean it can be one source of more open mindedness, like for example in the case of kids growing up in an ultra conservative right wing Bible belt kind of family and social group.
    if that kid would go to a school that offers a broader view and possibly meet young people and adults that do not belong to their ultra conservative world, it is one way of getting to know other views are possible and people with other views are not evil followers of the devil so to say.
    of course it is not a solution for everything, but open minded education should be supported for everyone. anyone raised in a strict religion or another struck view of the world should at least get in touch with the existence and contents of other views.
    the struggle to keep evolution theory as a part of biology classes is an important one, imagine how brain washed large parts of humanity could be without proper information and education.
    like how did we break free of more rigid and old fashioned ideas, and how did our parents?
    by getting in touch with movies, modern views, information and education.
    if countries and regimes manage to exclude female children from proper education, that is a disaster.
    that is the point I make, in bad circumstances what should at least remain is education and information.
    factbased information.
    and respect for other opinions than one’s own.
    M

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I agree with most of what you wrote here, BUT as I see it that does not resolve the ‘whole’ problem. I see the issue as more complex than is often stated. We neurotic humans are for ever seeking simple solutions.

      To and for me, the whole question lies deeper.

  187. Daniel:
    I am responding to your early-morning post (late 3/9-early 3/10) where you listed other instances of items banned from Amazon. I tried clicking on your LA Times link to no avail. I’m not distrusting what you posted, but I was curious to know what was objectionable about a doormat with “Allah” emblazoned on it.

    A small part of me wonders why not simply get rid of all guidelines such as the one you referenced:
    “….violating Amazon’s guidelines prohibiting the sale of products that “promote or glorify hatred, violence, racial, sexual or religious intolerance”.

    Just live and let live, instead? Total anarchic freedom of expression? Just let anyone post what they want and let anyone write or say what they want throughout the world? If people get hurt by what is said, just tell them, “That’s your feeling and the verbalizer is not responsible for that.”

    I’ve certainly had that said to me a time or two, hahahahaha

  188. Margaret says:

    UG,
    when people say that they usually mean you misinterpret the meaning or intention of what is being said to you, not that no one carries responsibility for what they say.
    i feel you lately deliberately try to ‘sabotage’ discussions, like why do you think people would make and sell a doormat with Allah on it?
    i have no objection against jokes about religion, but prefer one makes them about one’s own religion, or the religion one once was born in, and I do not like provocative and deliberately insulting commercial items like that kind of doormat.
    somehow these comments of yours feel like serving another agenda than what you actually write about, and I completely agree with Gretchen feeling you should be more direct,.
    if you want complete freedom you can’t keep objecting against car industry selling their dangerous vehicles without restraints.
    just saying, there are rules most of us accept as decent or not.
    M

    • Margaret: Well that “Allah” doormat could have multiple meanings from what I can see. Apparently from your standpoint it conveys a message that an Islamic version of God is not worth the soles of my shoes, so one wipes the crud of his shoes on an Islamist god. Sure, I can see far-right US military factions hyper-vigilant about terrorism loving a doormat like that, and it would be offensive to others from that regard.

      Now, how I looked at that doormat was “Welcome to a house of God (only in the Islamist tradition)”. Doormats are “Welcome” mats, and with the word “Allah (God)” on it, I personally strung together “Welcome to a house of God”

      Does that help clarify what I was thinking?

      • Patrick says:

        That makes total sense and I took it that way also. I HAD a doormat for years given to me by a good friend and it said “Fighting Irish” with a picture of a guy with 2 fists out.on it. I liked that and you can see it fits. Lighten upon this political correctness thing. Jeez in Belgium it seems really controlled but not ‘controlled’ enough that they realize they are being had………………….like in the Brussels fiasco/false flag. That’s the way they want them like mushrooms “Keep em in the dark, and feed them plenty of shit” Well we are a bit MORE in the dark now with all those wonderful books GONE>>>>>>>>>

      • Erron says:

        Only a myopic American could interpret the doormat in question like that. Are you completely unaware of the fact that amongst the majority of Islamic cultures, it is considered the ultimate insult to even show the soles of your shoes to someone deliberately? Hence the throwing of shoes at George Bush incident way back when.

        • Erron says:

          Or let’s take the case of Black Hawk Down: one of the major things that apparently infuriated the Somalis so much was the way the American soldiers, in battle ready pose, dangled their feet at the edge of the choppers, exposing their boots soles to all below.

        • Boy you were just salivating to POUNCE on the original misinterpretation like an attack dog there, weren’t you?
          Yes, I remember the GWB shoe incident and how throwing shoes is a sign of disrespect in Arab cultures. Also, I knew for many years it was rude to cross your legs in Saudi Arabia and so forth.

          The more important question is: Are these people in the Middle East going to ever give a shit about me? No? All right then, I’d like to watch my “Buck Commander” shows and keep my Pabst Blue Ribbon on ice in true American deepwoods redneck tradition and let others worry about their own cultures.

    • Patrick says:

      Shit – I could use one of those doormats at least in Ireland where no one much visits smiley. I have always wanted a good ‘doormat’ smiley again

      • Larry says:

        Why are you still here after Gretchen asked you to stay away.

        • Patrick says:

          I don’t consider it ‘legitimate’ it’s like asking someone to leave the group room because you don’t like their ideas. I am no danger to anybody I am expressing what I really think and feel. That is supposed to be what this blog and primal therapy is about. What’s it to you?

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Quote:- “That is supposed to be what this blog and primal therapy is about.”

            By who’s supposition is that what this blog is all about? Just another of your conjuring tricks to legitimize yourself … me thinks. I said before and every one on this blog know it also. You ain’t got a clue what Primal therapy is about. Least of all, the purpose of this blog.

            Last point … a repeat. Gretchen can do and ask for whatever she likes … it her bog NOT YOURS.

            Jack

  189. What would make you think I would not ask someone to leave a group? I have and I would. The best interest of the group and the individual would be considered and a decision would be made. As for Michael….. Vickis correct. What would make you think that you had a right to information about anyone else at the clinic? Michael was simply someone who originally worked with Art on some research and on his writing about the brain as he was a Neurologist. Later he decided because of his own issues to do the program. Why would you have a right to info about his case? I’m assuming based on your behavior here that someone would likely have asked what your feelings were about it. Does not seem like a stretch to me. As for who you are hurting by being here… I think Daniel has answered that question extremely well. That being said and so you know you are not the person nor is Herr a Kollerstrom that would concern me in terms of convincing others of the truth of your arguments. Rather the opposite is true. Should I meet someone who was on the fence about this subject matter you are the person I would send them to. I know they would return 100 percent convinced of the craziness of these arguments. I don’t think I have ever heard you defend your position coherently or back up a single thing with actual facts. You simply repeat the same things as though they were the truth and hope no one notices the lack of proof. Along those lines I do have a question for you. When you say the recent threats against Synagogues etc are fake what exactly do you base that on? Other than someone like Kollerstrom says it is so what was your proof of that? As for being banned.. I wanted you to have the day to say how you felt about being asked to leave particularly after having been here so long. After that I believe you can then be blocked. In a month or two if you wish to return you can contact me to discuss it. Gretch

  190. Otto Codingian says:

    Listen, lets not get carried away here. Pabst Blue Ribbon is EXCELLENT beer. From the land of sky blue waters or something like that.

  191. Erron says:

    Alcohol, like smoking, is anathema to feeling and primal process. Understandable in the early stages of some patients, but generally a red flag IMHO. Speaking as an ex-drinker (and smoker) of many years.

  192. Otto Codingian says:

    Margaret, I have been on lisinopril/hydrocholarathiazide (water pill) for many years. I thought maybe there was something else that acted in that manner. But as BB once told me,. just stop eating salt. RIGHT….it seems to be in everything.

    • Erron says:

      You’re right, it is everywhere. I had Meniere’s disease for several years, and had to avoid salt like the plague. Hardest job I think I ever had, with respect to my health. As you say, it’s in every damn thing. Easiest way is to avoid all the middle aisles in the supermarket, those with anything that comes in a package of any sort. A lot of work, though.

  193. Margaret says:

    Otto,
    for what I have read about it you have to watch your kalium levels if you take a combination of water pills and Lisinopril.
    I hope you have regular checkups.

    using a wok for me works to be able to cook in a fairly easy way, frying meat or fish or vegetarian stuff and then adding vegetables and cook rice, no salt added, and you can do so in one go and have meals for two or three days.
    bad luck is all processed food in the US is so incredibly full of salt and sugar, that often it is plainly inedible to my European taste.
    pastry and cinnamon cakes are disgustingly sweet, pancakes inedibly salty on occasions.

    and hey, for a oment I was pleasantly surprised at Patricks reply to Gretchen, short, and saying what she wrote sounded reasonable.
    his best comment ever.
    but then the next comment again clouded the brief opening of the blue sky..
    I hope you will also follow Gretchen’s earlier suggestion Patrick, and stay away from all the topics you submerged yourself into lately, have a breath of clean air and take some time for yourself .
    it might be hard to believe but we all want the best for you.
    good luck.
    Margaret

  194. Phil says:

    I’ve been having some reactions to what’s going on here on the blog. One is, Gretchen, I’m feeling your anger towards Patrick, understandable under the circumstances. Or at least that’s how I’m taking it in anyway. Makes me feel, wow, I might have also said some stupid and crazy things, so it feels like I’m receiving some of that too. I definitely don’t want to, wouldn’t like to be included with that. I should be more careful with things I say.
    The other thing is that, although Patrick has been writing what I see are very crazy and wacked out things for many months, even years, I feel sympathetic to his plight, whatever it is. Something is definitely wrong. I do agree with this ban, so that’s not really what I’m talking about. I agree that something needs to be done to maintain the integrity of the blog. I hope that Patrick will recognize the need to get some type of help, and that there’s a good outcome.
    The point here being, no doubt, Gretchen is the “mom” here on the group, for me. I associate my own mom with harsh things I received like punishments, being ignored and neglected, so it’s maybe activating some of that.
    I just thought it would be a good idea to write about some of whats been going on with me about this.
    Phil

    • Larry says:

      I think it is good for you that you wrote, Phil, and enlightening for us. It is illuminates how and why we react the way we do. I feel compelled to give you my response to one thing you wrote, if it is helpful to you. I didn’t get the impression so much that Gretchen was angry, but that she was acting firmly on her assessment of what was the best for all, for those who use the blog and for Patrick. It makes sense that Gretchen is the “mom” here for you. You are the judge of that of course.

      • Phil says:

        Larry,
        As far as my feeling, it doesn’t seem to make a difference whether I thought Gretchen was angry or firm. It turns out I did get to some old feelings today using that as a starting point.

  195. Larry says:

    After posting the music video here on March 9, I sent a link to Margaret as she is unable to open the link on this site. She replied back thanking me and asking how I was doing as my retirement approaches and hoping I was fully embracing the potential for new opportunities outside of full time work. Writing a reply to her turned out to be helpful to me, so I will go into it more here.

    As of the past couple of months I work full time Monday morning to Wednesday noon, then take the rest of the week off. I have a lot of overtime and vacation time to use up and I am using some of it each week to intentionally adjust to having a lot of free time on my hands. Since my wife died the workplace has become a distraction for me from my life problems, a security blanket that I’m going to have to leave behind and walk further and further away from.

    I find that I’m doing a lot of my crying on my days off. Each week I have plans for social outings to fill my time off, but I fail to follow through on most of them. I sit at home, alone and afraid. I start to cry that if I don’t overcome this fear I will be alone forever soon when I’m no longer at my workplace. Then the deeper feelings come up, needing Mom and Dad but they were never there. It hurts that they never tried, they never cared enough. How could they not recognize my child needs? How could they just let me be alone, to find my way in the world alone. How could I, a child, face the world knowing the people most vital to me didn’t care about me. I couldn’t be me and know that, so I hid from life.

    Looking at Facebook this morning, there were the usual videos about animal rescues. Today I felt compelled to watch one, and then another, and another, and another, crying through them all. Typically the rescuer approaches an animal, usually a dog, that is wary of people. The dog keeps a distance, shivering in fear, weak, starving, injured, diseased, neglected, abandoned, abused, some never having had contact with people. Eventually, with kindness and gentleness, they capture the animal and begin its healing. At first it cowers in fear from attention and touch, but gradually it learns to trust, learns to love in response to care, learns to enjoy touch and interaction with humans and with other dogs, and learns to enjoy life. I cry as I recognize and feel what happened to me and understand what neglect did to me and why I cowered from people and from life. I wish I had been adopted by loving parents. It hurts to admit my parents were so inept at parenting and that I was so alone. I learned to not approach anyone to fill my need. I recoiled from attention that I needed.

    Except for primal therapy and the primal community, we primal people do not get to have the rescue that some fortunate animals do. We have to go out into the world to find what we need in spite of our burden of wounds and fears, and heal ourselves. We don’t get to be rescued and cared for by a loving family.

  196. Jack Waddington says:

    Here’s my two cent as woth.
    I agree with you Larry, first off that it was great that Phil said what he said. If Phil feels Gretchen is angry I think that legitiamte to say so. If Gretchen wishes to tell us what her feelings are about Patrick I’m sure she’ll say so, assuming that her last posting was something else.
    I am not sure that it’s helpful, anyone telling Patrick he needs help, because I don’t think Patrick feels he needs any help from any of us, or any therapist at the Primal Institute. He states very clearly that he’s into Primal Therapy … but not how it is done here; either on the blog or at the Institutue and, seemingly. doesn’t want to go to do Primal Therapy at Janov’s center. So where (the fuck, [excuse the expletive]) does he want to do therapy. Maybe (and it’s all I can think of) he doesn’t want to DO therapy at all. Maybe he just want to contemplate Primal therapy OR … maybe he know how to give himself Primal therapy. Cum to think of it, he’s stated that he’s doing his own therapy anyway. Least-way he’s into it.

    Also, I agree with you Margaret … he acknowleges what Gretchen say then in the next breath goes off on Vicky and me. I find it hard to figure out just where he’s at with anything. Not even sure it’s worth me trying to figure out where he’s at.

    So!!! what going on with me in all this????? Patrick doesn’t bother me being ON or OFF the blog. I just hope he doesn’t wreck it, cos I love this blog. I feel that Gretchen is doing quite well running it, and that she’s running it for us … and it’s free.

    Meantime, the sun is shining and it’s a clear blue sky … so I’m going to sit outside and indulge it.

    Jack

    P.S. Once again WordPress is doing it’s number on me and I can’t figure out why

    • Erron says:

      Jack, I think some people just want to pay their money, go into a centre, lie down and have the therapy DONE to them. The idea that they will actually have to DO the therapy doesn’t occur to them until later.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Erron: Yeah!! I have noticed that with some people. I even mentioned it Patrick on one occasion, but since he never replied about such things, I was not able to continue the conversation further.

        It would sure be nice to have it done to us like having a massage … but that’s not the way it is.

        Jack

  197. Margaret says:

    phil,
    that is very interesting.
    it seems to illlustrate how we perceive a situation like this out of our own set of experiences.
    for me for instance it felt like a relief gretchen took a clear stand, and I did not really pick up anger.
    it felt reassuring and kind of safe , not entirely the right description, that she was taking responsibility and making a decision, for me what feels like adult behavior, as opposed to my own mom’s immatureness on many levels.
    and yes, safe might be a good word actually, come to think of it, for me personally that is how it feels.
    not in the sense of protecting me from any danger in the present, just being a responsible and reliable adult.

    i just called my mom, as I still feel concerned about the complaints from some of the staff members of the nursing home.
    she sounded ok, but much more active, and told me she was not sure her boyfriend would come over for a hike, but that if he was not coming she might go out for a walk on her own anyway.
    she said other people might plan to go out and she could go along.
    I told her that would probably not be the case as it was almost her dinner time..
    her boyfriend called me this morning, to let me know he will be off on a trip with his son next week.
    he also told me the home had called him yesterday as my mom was restless and they asked him if he could come over for a walk with her.
    he did do that and he said it was fine, that she is again in good shape. he did not consider it as a complaint of their part, but well, I do hope they remain a bit lenient and tolerant with her being more active again.
    if only they would fence their large garden, people could go out and noone would have to worry.
    but renovation works are going on so I guess at this moment there is no chance of them doing so.

    I will just have to see how things develop, and trust the fact they can’t really put her in a protected ward without our consent.
    wish I could still see well enough to go there by myself and take her out..
    not possible anymore, she is too forgetful, keeps even forgetting over and over about my poor eyesight.
    I did go walking with her alone before, but then she started getting more confused about which way to go and it got too tricky to do so.
    bringing her here for the day would also be hard, she needs loads of attention and I would have to be very attentive about her not leaving doors open for the cats etc.
    so in reality there is not a lot I can do, maybe I can ask some of her old friends to go pay her a visit while her boyfriend is out of the country, so she has one extra visit that week…
    it is an awful idea to imagine she would get into some kind of trouble and be forced to go live with people with fullblown dementia, in a closed ward.
    they said that ward has a little garden, I haven’t seen it yet but my brother did, and he was not keen at all about the idea of her being there, as the other residents there were not able to communicate.
    so well, just will have to keep hoping and fighting for the best.

    it is a shame there is a shortage of staff everywhere, to look after people in a way they can be busy and move around more freely. and this home is one of the good ones still..
    sorry to go on for so long, it does occupy my mind..
    M

  198. Margaret says:

    p.s. Phil,
    I can’t imagine anything crazy at all you have ever said that would make Gretchen or anyone in his right mind angry.
    you are always reasonable and kind as far as I see you.
    and smart, and you look up stuff to build your arguments on.
    but well, of course your feeling has its early roots. it is very telling really.
    M

  199. Margaret says:

    Larry,
    that was a very moving comment.
    i relate to so much of what you write.
    any scared animal strongly resonates with me, maybe it is because they are all innocent, just being what they are, and frightened in a situation they do not understand and carry no blame for.
    all of them trigger me, but probably most so felines.
    maybe it is the contrast of how loving they can be once you earned their trust, maybe it is their pride and independence.
    but I simply can’t stand to watch videos about mistreated animals, it is far too painful.
    come to think i of it I will finally subscribe myself to the organization here working on animal protection.
    greenpeace and International medicine already get my support, and I really want to support this group of people doing an important job for animals as well.
    ha, one of my cats came and laid beside me.
    two happy cats, smiley.
    making me smile as well..
    M

  200. Margaret says:

    ha, the usual saturday documentary, about the jungle of borneo and Sumatra this tie.
    just saw the last part, about giant milipedes, that exist already for 400 million years, which must be, if I recall it well, about a hundred times longer than our own ancestors, if we include the hominides.

    and then a flower that smells like rotting meat, not the huge one of ten kilos, but another smaller one, they saw with an infrared camera it even produces warmth during the night to resemble more a putrifying carcass, to attract certain beetles.
    the beetles go into the flower, which has waxed insides of the leafs to make the beetles slip and fall down.
    the flower keeps the beetle trapped in there for an entire day, the time for the flower to produce pollen and let it drop on top of the beetles.
    then the waxed inside changes into a texture that allows the beetle to get the hell out of there again and to go spread the pollen to another flower..
    and the orang oetans of Sumatra stay up in the trees and are social, live in groups, as oposed to their family in Borneo.
    also their fur is more orange and thicker.

    mm, Trump has the Borneo genes maybe.
    or no, even a not so social Orang oetan is stil much nicer probably.

    a hundred thousand different bugs live on the jungle floor. ha, wow, brrr, but they also do form a perfectly balanced system where nothing goes to waste.

    until some humans arrive to mess things up..
    but those millipedes must be pretty resistant, like the cockroaches..
    they showed two huge insects, don’t know the English name, we call them ‘praying somehting like crickets, big, green, long legs, a lot of them, predators.
    two males ran into each other, tried out the other one’s strength first, slowly, and then in a flash one grabs the other, kills it and eats it..
    once saw two of those in Spain, a male and a female clearly, and while the male was having the time of his life, ha, the female turned her head around, and started eating him bit by bit, while he continued what he was doing, for a little while at least….

    we were sitting around, fascinated, it happened on the curb in front of the one freaky disco of our small village, only open in the weekends.
    yeah, nightlife in the seventies..
    M

  201. Phil, I too think it’s a positive that you say your reactions. I’m not angry with anyone here including Patrick. Actually I believe I was the last to agree to censoring or banning as I take it very seriously. But in the end it is for me to do obviously. I too feel badly for whatever demons Patrick may be up against but that is exactly what allowed me to make the final decision. It was clear as Daniel and Margaret have pointed out that this was not helpful in the end. I do also feel one has to take some responsibility for our choices and that can include certain consequences. What do I feel? Astounded! That is my strongest feeling. The ugliness and hurtfulness of his comments is beyond anything I have heard a thinking person say . I honestly don’t know what he does or does not truly believe but that kind of hatefulness shocks me to some degree. Maybe if it was one or two rage filled comments well, ok, we all have been that angry. But this was relentlress and went on for months. For me predjudice is ignorance. As an aside I’m astounded by something else as well. Maybe because it’s human nature to consider how we might handle a situation. I do not understand that when asked to defend his viewpoint there was nothing. It felt to me that if He was to say the world was flat and was then asked to explain that viewpoint he would give an answer to another question altogether , ignore the question or tell us how stupid we were not to see what he sees. This is perplexing because if I was to present a controversial view you can bet I would have read both sides of the argument and would have checked and double checked my evidence. This did not seem to disturb him at all ( that this happened repeatedly). Even as late as last night I asked what was his proof that there were no legitimate threats against Synagogues etc. …..no answer! This does astound me. In any case I can’t swear that he can’t get back on the blog but I do think a break is necessary. Gretchen

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: Sorry if I am going on a bit here, but I feel, all the analysis about Patrick is somewhat misplaced. It is my feeling, and solely mine, that Patrick was unable to RESOLVE his anger towards me. All the rest followed on from just that. A sad case of what neurosis does to us.

      Jack part 1

      • Jack Waddington says:

        It does, however, brings up quite a few feelings for me. Not bad feelings, and not ‘old feelings’

        What I am trying to say here, is that Patrick came onto this blog because of me. He knew I used this blog. The reason he came onto this blog in the first place, was in order to ‘get at me’. In this sense I feel some guilt (not particularly deep guilt, but guilt nevertheless). Had I not (inadvertently) made Patrick angry, I suspect he would never have come onto the blog in the first place. I already knew, at that stage, he was no longer interested in Primal therapy. I knew Patrick very well having worked for and with him for more than 25 years. Yeah yeah yeah I know this is all repetitive.

        However, I feel another aspect of guilt since the way I dealt with Patrick, after he came onto the blog was by first ignoring him. This, I feel, made him even more angry with me. He wanted to hurt me, and seemingly, I was not letting him know how I felt. SO! he persisted and became more and more outrageous towards me. It was at this point I started to “poke” him.

        Seemingly to me, this provoked in others on the blog to ‘get at me’ for “poking” him. This peeved me somewhat, since I felt some of you were letting him get away with his ranting and ravings, yet characterizing me as being part of the problem. I was indeed part of the problem in-so-far as I was provoking him … but it appeared to me, many of you were letting him get away with it. Some of you perhaps even liking him, or perhaps sympathetic with him. I do know that many in the past (and perhaps still feel) they are bothered by ME. It came up several time at retreats.

        I did understand (and said so) that no-one knew Patrick like I did. I had watched how he ran his business with his staff, from the moment he started the business. I had spent many hour sitting for him in the past, and I knew a fair amount of his history.

        Throughout, this whole process I tried very hard not to be defensive about it all. How much I succeeded I will leave you all to decide.

        This now brings me back to what I stated in my first paragraph, in bringing up more than a few feeling about this whole brouhaha over Patrick. I feel I understand him … not that I like him, or ever did, as I felt for years he resented somethings about me, but we did have one of those “love hate” relationships. However, I did feel I was able to tolerate him.

        I hope this explains some of what is going on with me about it all. Sadly, I don’t think we’ve seen or heard the last of him. Maybe in the very beginning I should have just been pissed with him for coming onto this (my blog) blog, and said so. That just might have resolved it all, and then he would have gone away. Ah! well.

        Jack part 2

  202. Phil says:

    Gretchen,
    OK, thanks for all of this. I have also been astounded by all the stuff coming from Patrick and his unwillingness or inability to see how unreasonable it is. I posted quite a few messages over time trying to reason and argue with him with no success, to the point where I mostly gave up.
    It could be that the triggering part for me is a tone from you that I’ve added or imagined because it’s all in writing here, which corresponds to my historical stuff.
    I can certainly see the benefit of him taking a break from the blog. It seems like he’s just been using it to dump a whole lot of disconnected anger and resentment.
    Phil

  203. I suppose Janov was right about great therapeutic changes being made over the years.
    We’ve come a l-o-o-o-o-n-g way, baby!

    https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2013/01/19/food-for-thoughts-by-patrick-griffin/

    • Erron says:

      Is this the thread where Patrick names the eight suicides? I couldn’t find it, although he keeps referring to suicide and suicides in PT all the way through. It certainly exercises his mind. That worries me, for him.

      Aside from that, I too have found a Paleo/ketogenic diet a great help, for my physical and psychological health.

      • Too much work!

        This current blog has had approximately 520 posts since February 18th. 520 posts in the last 22 days is 23 posts made every day on average (rounding down).

        I’ll be super conservative in my estimate and say 15 posts have been made each day (over a long-term average) since January 19, 2013.

        We’re looking at slightly over 1,500 days at a rate of 15 posts/day being approximately 22,500 posts to wade through.

        Have fun wading through that big mess.

  204. Vicki says:

    I think Patrick’s failure to answer requests for proofs, or other questions challenging his beliefs — must mean that he is not rational about them, and like anyone who has taken to heart any irrational belief, and therefore has woven them into his internal fabric, they are now “self-evident” and “obviously true” to him. All else follows from that, just like a religion. “Believing it” has given him some feeling of peace and surety, to quell other feelings less enjoyable to feel. Just what those other feelings are, only he could know or learn and say. I almost feel stupid saying all this, as I think we all likely know it already, so I’m sorry if it sounds too simple.

    What brought this to my mind was thinking about my mother and her religious beliefs, which were unshakeable, she was so convinced of them all, and astounded at my disbelief, to the point that she said like, “Oh, go on!”, like she thought I was pretending disbelief — I mean she didn’t think it was possible I did not believe as she did, considering “how she brought me up”. So she denied it could be true, and thought I would somehow “come to my senses” and return to her way.

    I just think when someone thinks they’ve found “the answer”, or an answer to settle painful doubts and confusions beyond their ability to feel, it is often too easy to adopt, cling, expand and hence myelinate the belief that soothes. And then the person is “gone”, at least partly. I don’t usually expect that to happen with someone in Primal therapy, but we have likely all seen it, and may have done some of it at one time or another. Connecting the dots of our feelings to our pasts is an adventure, after all.

    It does feel astounding that a person could just leave behind rational thinking (and feeling), and not even be able to any longer conduct a real conversation on a subject. Because you have to give up a lot of yourself, to get to that point, and you lose so much by making that choice! But (back to my own history) my mom was convinced she was rational, that her beliefs were completely valid and understandable. The fact that she needed to overpower us (kids) and have us brainwashed, and enforce her beliefs on us, was what gave away the fact that her “confidence” was a sham, and if she couldn’t control us, she was enraged. Same for my dad.

    I think mental and emotional vigilance, and self-honesty, help to prevent that from getting the better of us, but it is work.

    • Sylvia says:

      Vicki, I like how you write and your simple take on this rigamarole we’ve been through trying to reach Patrick. From things I’ve read of Janov it seems abreaction or venting can be a defense and the one doing it believes it is a productive feeling when it isn’t.

      You are so right about being honest with yourself. I used to think everything was okay if it came out of my mouth, just because I said it, but then I considered I might be wrong about that. It does take work and listening to others.

      Speaking of moms. I get what you mean how moms want us to be in their image, little offshoots of them. One day my mom said to me, ‘why are you so different than me?’ What a question, huh, as if I should be her genetically cloned personality.
      Do hope to read more of you here.
      S

  205. Margaret says:

    i think it would be fair if we stop talking as much as possible about Patrick in a personal way for as long as he is away.
    which does not mean we can’t talk about any of the feelings involved of course.
    i never feel good about talking about someone who is not there and able to defend themselves.
    we can easily talk about the general processes involved instead.
    does that make sense?
    i feel otherwise it would be enormously frustrating to read the comments and to not get back on the blog, so well,, that is my view.
    M

  206. Margaret says:

    sylvia,
    that was indeed quite a question your mom asked you!
    M

  207. Otto Codingian says:

    failed again. me. bad dad. killer of kids’ hearts. oh well. bills got to be paid. only one way to do it, go lifeless. not a poem, it would be a lousy poem. just me. don’t want sympathy. just want to say it.

  208. Otto Codingian says:

    now i watch a stupid movie on tv. what else can i do. that was my life for many years as a child, watch tv alone, especially Sunday afternoon. productive group for me yesterday, in yelling (?) the agony of my present life of hating to be around people. agony of going to work, coming home, watching tv, and going to bed. no fun, little interaction with people except in a business way. agony of pets having died, me and z going to die. no spark of romance in my life this yelling release of forced down feelings (forced down by overeating) led me to see the images of me laying in the bassinette at my uncle’s, after being torn away from my dying mother at 10 months. minute after second after hour of laying alone alone alone, with only a bottle at some point and the sounds around me. nowhere near to feeling that agony, that i have lived with over and over in my life. never will feel that in all its agony. but a little relief maybe.

  209. Daniel says:

    Patrick’s presence on the blog was at times so abusive and so hurtful that action had to be taken. However, looking back, was his presence on the blog a blessing or a curse? If we could have turned the clock back, would it have been preferable had Patrick never came on the blog in the first place?
    The curse side is evident. But Gretchen made a very interesting and clever remark to Patrick:

    you know you are not the person nor is Herr Kollerstrom that would concern me in terms of convincing others of the truth of your arguments. Rather the opposite is true. Should I meet someone who was on the fence about this subject matter you are the person I would send them to. I know they would return 100 percent convinced of the craziness of these arguments.

    In other words, Patrick is the best argument against his own ideas, the most efficient vaccine as it were against the malady he’s trying to spread.

    Speaking for myself, Patrick’s comments made me learn something each time I grappled with them, because I had to think about the issues at hand and look for information to fill gaps in my knowledge and argumentation. And it made my liberal stance in life more stable, my admiration to the many men and women who devoted their lives to the pursuit of knowledge and to the alleviation of suffering more profound, and my gratitude for my good fortune of having been born in and having lived my entire life in a free world more real.

    Patrick’s comments also made me consider my own racism, for example the times I was more afraid of someone because he not only appeared to be angry but also happened to be black or an Arab.

    So, again, was Patrick’s presence only a curse or also a blessing? Perhaps the full answer will be available only in hindsight.

    BTW, for those who were looking for them, Patrick’s comments where he’s naming people whom he says committed suicides are here and here.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Daniel: Thanks for those links. On re-reading them reminded me of some of my responses.

        I suspect Patrick will still be reading the blog, but will be more outraged, furious, and perhaps some other feelings, at not being able to respond and get read.

        Jack

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks, Daniel, I had tired of hunting a couple of days ago. He named 4 and then one more name later, that he himself knew. He described 4 more (two with names) that he heard of. But we don’t know, as Jack has pointed out, whether some were ex-patients, rumors, or what. I don’t think it matters now. Both those links go to “Remembering Summer part 4”, posted October 6, 2015.

      A friend of mine who killed herself was no longer a patient, and although it happened while Patrick was a patient, and was talked about at group, she is not on his list. She had made numerous suicide attempts for years. When she was a baby, her mother was admitted to a mental hospital. Later her mother came home for awhile, but then was again institutionalized. Then her father abandoned her to an orphanage when she was three years old. So she had no family, at some point her parents died. At 12, she had to agree to have surgery to have her spine fused — thereafter, she was unable to bend part of her back for the rest of her life. While in therapy, she had to have a mastectomy. She was in a lot of pain and chronically suicidal, and made repeated attempts — which makes sense to me!

      The P.I. tried to help her, over and over, but I remember she said finally her therapist told her she needed to be in a hospital where she could be taken care of, so she did that, and was on meds. After she came out, she was living in a “Primal house” and taking her medication, although she didn’t like the “blunted” way it made her feel. Then one day some stranger entered the house, and assaulted her. She said she was screaming, “Help, help, help me!”, a roommate was in the house, but no one came, and later the roommate told her he just “thought she was in a feeling.” That made me angry, I said in group, like, “If you hear someone screaming ‘Help’, you GO CHECK FIRST whether something’s really happening — you DON’T just assume someone’s having an old feeling!” It was so insane and stupid.

      She was shaken even further with that, and afterwards (I learned later) she started saving up her meds. I talked to her and she was telling me she was again feeling suicidal, and just didn’t want to keep on with the pain, and three days later she took all the pills, and the person who found her in her bed said she looked very peaceful. This happened when I was quite new to therapy, and I became friends with her and I felt she was amazingly open. I listened and wanted to help her and somehow take care of her I knew not how (which she rejected in a kind way), but I don’t have any doubt that she really did not want to live, given all the trauma and pain she was burdened with. So I tend to think people who kill themselves, most likely really wanted to for some time.

    • Larry says:

      I think the person’s background determines how much that person experienced Patrick as a unique learning event. In your profession where you get to see inside a lot of people, Daniel, it sounds like Patrick stood well outside the norm for you. I think he was that for all of us.

      But from my background of being pretty withdrawn and isolated, I learned a lot about myself as I tried to get to know and understand practically everyone on this blog, including you Daniel. I think the only regular bloggers here who I met in person before the blog are Vicki, Leslie, and Chris P. Blessing or curse, It has been scary for me and prompted self reflection and even often triggered feelings in the process of getting to know people here, many who I still haven’t met in person.

      I too am grateful that I don’t live in a community full of people on the loose with Patrick’s mindset. That would be a nightmare, of a kind that very unfortunate people have had to endure. I hope I never have to. I’ve been lucky.

  210. Otto Codingian says:

    i was sensitive to smell at 10 months. i smelled my aunt and uncle’s smells somewhat sijmilar to my mom’s smell. confusing to me. this popped into my head right now, i have said this before. what does it mean? no idea.

  211. I will address the issue of suicidal patients but this will be the last time for me. I’ll explain why but obviously the rest of you are free to discuss whatever you like. I made an attempt in the past to discuss this issue but to me it did not seem to be a coincidence that whenever Patrick was angry with me that this was what he brought up. Just as he brings up specific things that he believed would get to Vicki or Jack etc with me it was suicide. I believe he thought with my history I would surely be sensitive to this particular subject. The truth was this was not at all the case. Most people know my father was a suicide and that I dealt with suicide in a number of ways as a child. Possibly this was unconscious but I’m doubting that. In any case and likely because of my own experience in Primal I feel a great deal of resolve around this subject and though I have some strong opinions it is no longer a ” button ” for me. That being said I did feel it was manipulative and decided I was done with discussion. In therapy a large percentage of patients come to treatment either suicidal now or at some time in the past. We have seen thousands of clients and I know many who would not have made it without treatment. I also know the percentage of people who choose to end their lives is way below that of any other therapy clinic. There are some who feel that signing up to enter treatment is all there is to it. From there we must fix them which of course is not at all how any therapy works. There is no magic and it can be hard work. I did not address Patrick’s list because I don’t know who most of these people are. It felt a little like Ivan from Russia and Sven from Sweden or that guy who went to treatment elsewhere. I don’t know what to do with that. It’s also interesting that he continued to talk about twenty people while giving me a list of far less than that of people with no last names and who I have no information about. I don’t want to debate it any further as clearly any loss is a trauma but I also feel the whole thing was simply a smoke screen in the end. Gretchen

    • Erron says:

      Gretchen, I always wondered why some people singled out primal therapy to point the finger at over the suicide rate. I’ll bet if you went to any psychotherapist or psychiatrist or clinic of any sort and did a survey, you’d find just as many, probably far more suicides than in a competent primal centre. So, I totally agree with you here.

      I’ve also known many friends and relatives who suicided over the years. They had all gone to mental health professionals of some kind previously, or were going at the time of their death. Yet no one ever suggested for one minute that the mental health professional in question should be subject to any censure.

    • Vicki says:

      Gretchen that is thought-provoking, because it had not occurred to me that his “attacks” could be that targeted. I think of “manipulative” as somehow planned intentionally, as if it’s more complicated work, but maybe it’s just wanting to “hurt” and “win” and an instinct for “going for the jugular” to provoke some desired response. I think sometimes people have hurt me in ways that seemed manipulative, but it was hard for me to believe that they could have chosen to do that, it seemed so “twisted”, so I thought possibly I was wrong about their intentions — and I just filed it away for future reference and caution with them. Anyway, thanks.

  212. Daniel, I thought your post was very interesting. I have had very similar thoughts. It’s all an opportunity for self reflection in the end. Gretch

  213. Jack, I do agree with much of what you said particularly when it comes to Patrick’s earlier motivations. At the same time I certainly don’t think you are responsible for his choices. I also don’t think he would have left no matter what you would have said. As for your other question about what I meant about some things being old and some being a present day reaction well, technically you are right . Past or present we are still speaking about our personal feelings ( if I understood you correctly). But what I was talking about had more to do with present day reactions being ” written off” as old. As in I’m upset that you stole my favorite necklace and you respond by saying ” Oh Gretchen you are just in an old feeling”. No im not I’m pissed you took my necklace! Lol! Now give it back Jack! 🙂 Gretch

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: First off; Sorry I stole your favorite necklace … BUT meantime I sold it; so I can’ give it back to you. Sorry!!!! 🙂 🙂 LOL.

      Secondly; I don’t feel responsible for HIS choices … just that through me, others suffered.

      Thirdly: You understood me correctly.

      Fuck you WordPress fior the run around.

      J

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I did not know about your fathers death, so that came as a surprise to me. Good to know you resolved most of it.
        What I did know was that you were an early success with Primal therapy and that is what got you to become an early therapist. I think I know one other thing about your relationship to the Janov’s.

        Last night after going to bed, I was reflecting on all the brouhaha over Patrick and I came up with this idea:-

        J

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I think, had Patrick been able to hurt me when he first came onto the blog and I had shown it … all this other stuff about the holocaust, yourself, the therapy, suicides, lies, Vicky, Margaret and others would NEVER have happened. It was because I feel he was unable to RESOLVE the anger with me; the rest followed.

        I think I have written here, but did so in my last book how I felt was the means to “resolve” anger, hate and all the feeling around these two major feelings. It is my sincere feeling Patrick was never able to resolve his anger towards me. Other than this, I see Patrick as no worse that most others of us neurotic humans. It then became a passion/compulsion for him.

        Jack

  214. Gretchen: How old were you when this happened?

  215. Vicki, It’s so difficult to trust our feelings in these situations. Partly because of our reality being denied so many times. Your mom was a master at that particular skill! Also in your case I think it does not occur to you that someone could have an alternate agenda because you don’t do that yourself. G.

  216. Guru, When my dad died? If so I was 13 . Why Guru? G.

  217. THE "CONVICTED" ONE says:

    OK so I am ‘banned’ as Jack suggested I would ‘follow’ the blog and I sit here like a Soviet non person having been convinced in some kangaroo court and now they pile on all the nobodies all the court sycophants all the losers with nothing much going for them except their kissing ass to ‘authority’. Margaret to her great credit suggested to leave the ‘dead’ alone don’t speak ill of the ‘dead’ but ‘bearing false witness’ is deep in these guys it’s not only the Germans of the Muslims its a deep habit or mind as is ‘lying’ part of the same thing of course.

    But is not the court jerks I want to focus on it’s the ‘court’ which is Gretchen. First off Gretchen I am sorry about you dad but was not aware of what happened at all. It’s true now you mention it I do believe I heard that before but it had gone clean out of my mind. (I guess I don’t worship therapist and if I heard it I do not put any more significance on it that on anyone else) Again sorry really I am. But my mentioning suicide had NOTHING to do with your personal situation except in that you said AND VERY CLEARLY YOU KNEW OF ONLY 3 ‘SUICIDES’ AT THE PI AND THAT INCLUDED ATTEMPTS!!. Now that is a brazen LIE and you were caught out badly in it by me as it was such a ludicrous statement and such a FALSE statement. I was there in the ’80 and omg they were popping up all over the place inside primal boxes, in motorcycles in the desert after they went home to their countries again 3 I personally worked with. But and I have to say in TYPICAL TALMUDIC/JUDAIC STYLE the ‘lie’ they got caught in is now turned on the person who ‘caught’ them and that persons ‘motivations’ and ‘manipulations’ etc A typical TWIST while they now try to ‘twist’ the other person.. So their geat ‘shame’ becomes another ‘win’ for them And then here come the losers the Vicki’s the Error’s etc.Aside from Margaret I have to give Daniel some credit too even is I find his ‘logic’ a bit iffy most of the time.

    Anyway I will go back in my dog house/prison now but Gretchen not so fast! You were caught out badly in a big lie that’s why I mention it when I want to ‘hurt’ you which you have now totally attempted to change…………………that’s disgusting and you even bring your own history into it for a kind of final ‘manipulation’ . Disgusting and yes again LYING. I promise you will not hear more from me but stop ‘bearing false witness’ you should be busy enough with Germans and Muslims leave me alone I am not that important. Vicky sink back into whatever you are doing you are not needed declaiming here from your high chair spouting something close to pure rubbish. But the main point is Gretchen STOP LYING and you might learn something from Margaret as in ‘respect for the dead’ It should be enough you have silenced and ‘barred’ me that should be enough for you why isn’t it??.

  218. Margaret says:

    Gretchen,
    I am very sorry to hear about your dad, I did not know.
    M

    • Phil says:

      Gretchen, I didn’t know and am very sorry to hear about your dad’s suicide but glad that you feel a lot of resolve around that issue.
      I haven’t felt I needed anymore statements about suicides among P.I patients or ex-patients. As far as I can tell, this is only Patrick’s issue or point he’s found to push on.
      We end up here mostly responding to his crazy ideas and accusations and it’s impossible to get anywhere with that.
      I’m hoping that the blog will move on to other things.
      Phil

  219. Patrick , Is this what being silenced looks like? You might want to consider that rather than being lied to someone else in this world has another opinion, one that is different than yours. Yes Patrick there are other opinions that differ from yours. I know it’s a shock but some of us think we too have something valid to say. You think that we should all be silent because you are gone ? Really? I think we all have a right to speak without your relentless bullying. You have had your say now others will have theirs . Period! You are not dead and no one will be shocked that you are here once again. It’s predictable. So No, no one will be kept from saying their reactions right now. How typically narcissistic that is. You are gone so no one else should speak or have their reaction to the things you have hit them over the head with for months on end. Really ?! ” I’m sorry about your dad but I was not aware that happened at all. It’s true now that you mention it I heard that before” . Which is it? You did not know it but now that I mention it you did hear it. My viewpoint is that I am certain you did know it. I’m one hundred percent certain. You say you knew three of the people on your list personally. You knew three ! Guess what me too. I have no idea about the rest of the twenty that turned into eight . Anymore than you apparently do. Were you lying when you said twenty?? I suggest you consider your own lies and let everyone else do their own inventories. How about that idea ? We all get that you have accusations galore. We all get you have negative things to say. You will have to come to terms with the idea that others might have a different perspective. What I wrote about was mine. Gretchen

  220. Guru, Because that’s what I was asking about……g.

  221. Sylvia says:

    Gretchen. very sorry also about losing your dad at that early age.
    I think that therapy prevents many suicides when considering how many contemplate it. Probably everyone does in their lifetime. It’s the leading cause of death for those between 15–44 years of age. Very tragic and so much pain.

  222. Jack Waddington says:

    Patrick: If you are still reading, let me tell you my experience with a suicide. It is because of JUST this, I feel I am able to know what is involved with suicides.
    The Institute nor Primal therapy caused the suicides. I get the feeling you feel it did. It is irrelevant how many patients, ex or otherwise, who did so. AND yes; I too have felt suicidal, over a rejection of a lover.:-

    Jack

    • Jack Waddington says:

      My mother’s father … my Granddad; was an asthmatic, and suffered it badly throughout his life. He committed suicide; while my mother was 4 months pregnant with me. My mother told me many years later that she refused to grieve her fathers death whom she loved dearly, because of the baby inside her … me..

      I just wished my mother had grieved her father death AND feel had she done so, it would have been far better for the fetus me to take, rather than her resisting that grieving, which I feel caused her more stress and tension that if she’d just cried and cried about her father’s death.

      Jack

      • Jack Waddington says:

        It was ironic the way he committed suicide. At work, on the day in question, he took the gas pipe from his soldering machine and stuck it in his mouth. Did he hope that might help him breath better … I don’t know … OR … did he just want to end the suffering?????

        All this was before inhalers. Had he known about what actually causes asthma and been able to re-relive it, (as a PRIMAL) over and over again … I believe he would have resolved a great amount of the suffering … alas he didn’t.

        Jack

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Sorry guys; I did write these three last comments as one comment but somehow WordPress is giving me the run around.

          Jack

  223. Phil says:

    I was feeling quite suicidal myself just before starting primal therapy and before I even knew about the therapy.
    There was nothing I was aware of that I thought could help with the problems I was experiencing.
    I came across “The Primal Scream” book among a large number of other books in my father’s house. It had been my sister’s from a college class. Reading it made a deep impression on me.
    I went to the library and spent many hours comparing it to other therapies described in books in the psychology section. I remember reading “Going Sane”, for example, written by some former primal therapists. That book didn’t make much sense to me. The decision to do primal therapy gave me a lot of hope.
    When I actually started therapy and made some progress with feeling, that moved me out of the very stuck place I was in, so that I was no longer thinking of suicide.
    Phil

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: That is a very interesting aspect about you. Great share.

      Puts yet another aspect to suicide.,

      Jack

  224. Daniel says:

    Unfortunately, people kill themselves even in the most protected of environments. They do it in prisons and in hospitals where they are constantly watched. For me it is another example of the difficult realization that our selves end with our skin, and anything beyond our skin belongs to the not-me and therefore also really beyond our control. If someone puts his or her mind to sending their body to where their feeling-self already is it isn’t certain that we will be able to influence their overpowering wish to, so to speak, reunite and thus end their suffering. All we can do is our best hoping they won’t do their worst.

    While I was in LA in the 1980’s a good friend of mine back home hanged himself on an avocado tree outside his grandma’s house. It was a shock. During the several weeks preceding his suicide we spoke on the phone and I was doing my best to cheer him up, even thinking his state might be an opportunity for him. I was naïve and never even fully said to myself he was seriously depressed. I was young and didn’t know too much about those things. For 3 or 4 weeks after his suicide his body kept on dangling before my eyes. I couldn’t shake it away. Then, after weeks I wasn’t able to even cry about it it all the feelings came gushing out and then it stopped, the dangling body vanished from in front of my eyes. It was on November and I still go and visit his father every year around that time.

    During my PI years, from 1983-1988 I knew of two suicides. One, Moira who Patrick mentioned in his list, I knew quite well because I was friends with her and her boyfriend Don. Moira wasn’t an active patient at the time of her death. The second one was a guy whose name I don’t recall. He used to come every now and then to Barry’s small group. He killed himself on the way to Las Vegas and Barry told us about it in group. I have no idea if he was an active patient at the time.

    Not all suicidal people can be saved but each suicidal person deserves the chance to be saved. If the PI was willing to take desperate people as patients and give them that chance then good for them.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Daniel: Great comment. The only 100% solution (of course) is to prevent the trauma that causes it … invariably in our vulnerable early life.

      Jack

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Strange … my short comments seem to make it without a problem,. It’s the long ones that don’t make it , until I break them up into several short ones. Ah! well.

        Jack

  225. Never, ever considered or planned suicide since the very beginning of my lifetime.

    • Phil says:

      Spring?
      Blizzard here today, 14 to 20 inches of snow expected. We look to be close to 14 inches already. I’m very thankful for another snow day off from work. Also the shoveling will make it unnecessary to go to the gym, not that I could get there anyway. A state of emergency has been declared, but I see no reason to panic.