“Letter to Barry” by Shane Roberts prologue by Barry Bernfeld

I recently received this email from a long time Primal Patient of mine. I was immediately taken aback by the nuance and seemingly endless permutations of our deepest Primal feelings. This patient’s ruthlessly honest personal inventory detailing the damage done to him and the damage done by him to loved ones and others is heartbreaking. The painful childhood filled with hurt, anger, neglect and abuse, the Primal/Existential horror of what was done to many of us seems to have its mirror image in the scar tissue we may have contributed to in the lives of the people we love. This depth of Primal reality is not for the squeamish or faint of heart.           Barry Bernfeld
Letter to Barry”  by Shane Roberts 

Barry,                                                                                                                                                         This is the worst.

I was reminiscing about how I might have chosen someone who would have
been a caring, nurturing, supportive, partner to me.

Then I pictured all the women and girlfriends I have been with. I
remembered how I had been cruel to all of them and hurt them all. I
thought how this had undermined my opportunity for love.

Then Susan came to mind.

I spent three months dating Heidi in my sophomore year of high school.
She was 6 months older and a junior. Susan was a popular, beautiful,
petite, Jewish girl (reformed, her NY relatives were orthodox), who
made me feel more loved than anyone ever had.

I adored her. I couldn’t imagine life without her. I wanted her

I grew possessive, frustrated and angry. I hurt her. She left me. It
broke my heart. For years.

So I cried this morning about the lost opportunity with my one true

Then like some deep sea creature, some monster of the deep, broke the
surface of my consciousness.

First all the women I have abused. Then everyone in my life who has
ever suffered.

Any time I might have offered refuge and comfort to a suffering
friend, lover or family member, and didn’t.

Barry I don’t think I would or could ever confess this to anyone but

And I’m not even sure why I’m doing that. I don’t know what it serves.
Some need I have.

It just came rushing in. Anyone who has ever suffered anything like
how I have, if I might have held out a hand, slung my arm around their
shoulder, offered some bit of comfort, some reassurance that they are
not just alone. Alone with their pain.

I aspired to be that person. I certainly held it as an ideal. A
humanitarian approach to my brother and sister fellow travelers. To be
a kind person. A sympathetic person. A generous person.

I just didn’t know how. Just did not have it in me.

I feel like Lenny in Steinbeck’s “Of Mice and Men”. I don’t want to
hurt nothin’ but if I get excited and confused I squeeze the puppy too
hard and it dies. I don’t mean to kill it.

It’s the worst. It’s the worst pain I’ve ever felt. The worst.

I’ve howled and howled. I don’t know why but it is the worst. Nothing
has ever been worse. Not even the agonies of infancy.

This is definitely the worst.

I find myself posturing against the pain. I have to remind myself to
relax my body and breathe and not posture to grip against the pain.
Weird postures. Weird movements.

I’ve pictured catatonics in mental hospitals for years. They are no
mystery to me at all.

By the time I was ten we lived on one half acre with a horse coral, a
large swimming pool, huge yard, a large home in an affluent
neighborhood of Sacramento, California. Behind our fenced half acre
was a field with a modest shack of a home on it that we did not have
direct access to.

One summer a boy about my age and build (small and skinny) with ring
worm all over his scalp causing hair loss, showed up from the “shack
house” behind us to introduce himself and play. He was dirty and
shabbily dressed (about the way I would have been appeared a year or
two before, on our farm) and seemed lonely and eager for a friend.

I think I was intrigued at first, although somewhat put off by the
ring worm, and we played together the first time we met. I may have
played with him one more time and then he showed up at the window of
our back door one day.

I thought; “Oh god, this creepy kid is going to want to come around
and play with me all the time.” And I could feel his need. I froze in
the doorway of our kitchen staring at him. He waved and stared back. I
just stood and stared. Finally I walked away from the kitchen door,
away from him, and I never saw him again.

I felt ill. Sick inside. One of my worst memories ever. Always. I’ve
never forgotten. I felt like I took a poisoned dagger and just stuck
it straight into that kid’s heart. I knew I might be his only
“friend.” And I wasn’t his friend. I knew he desperately longed for a
friend and might have a hard time finding one.

I was wracked with guilt.

Another time I was walking the mile home from school and I saw three
boys bullying another boy. Pushing him down on the ground.

I thought that wasn’t right. Someone should do something. And I felt
weak and helpless. I should go stop those boys, not let them do that.
But I knew I wasn’t strong enough, or just too cowardly. I never would
have tried to stop them.

Some years later in high school two boys started a fist fight in the
hall. I stood back watching. John , an acquaintance of mine and
star of the varsity football team burst on the scene and broke up the
fight. I thought; “That was the right thing to do. Why didn’t I even
think of doing that?”

These are the incidents that came immediately to mind once I stopped
rolling around the house screaming with the shear agony of such an
awful revelation.

Instead of being a refuge and a comfort to people in my predicament,
suffering, lonely, longing for love, I was another blind self-absorbed
hypnotic, incapable of seeing them, empathizing, recognizing their
suffering, their need for a little comfort, some kindness.

That hurts so much. That hurts more than anything. Nothing compares.
That I just wasn’t there for people who might of cared for me, loved
me, been kind to me, but I drove them away, adding to their load of

Oh god that hurts.

I feel so alone. So bad. So radioactive.

This is the worst. So far. This is the worst. I really hope it doesn’t
get worse than this.


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994 Responses to “Letter to Barry” by Shane Roberts prologue by Barry Bernfeld

  1. thomas verzar says:

    hi Shane
    Your pain is palpable. Your description of how much it hurts you how it was for you, and how you have become because of it, is pure agony.
    What got to me the most though, was when you finished your letter to Barry, and signed off by saying
    That really hurts me. Don’t know why. I never said that to Barry.
    Oh, that hurts.

    • Anonymous says:

      Tom. I understand.

    • Shane says:

      Tom. I understand.

    • Christopher S. Fite says:

      To Shane Roberts: Hi, Shane. I recently read your letter to Barry, which was posted in 2017. You wrote about that when you were a boy, there was another boy who wanted to play with you, and you played with him once or twice, and then he showed up at your door, and you thought, “Oh god, this creepy kid is going to want to come around and play with me all the time”, and you stared at him, and he went away, and you never saw him again, and you were wracked with guilt about this. I had a similar situation, I would say, when I was seven years old. The boy next door, named Larry, wanted me for a friend, and I didn’t like him that well, but he kept coming over, and I couldn’t keep him away, and no one would help me, so one evening I decided that I would just go along with what HE wanted to do, AND PRETEND THAT I LIKED HIM. When I made this decision, it was like flipping a switch, from good life, to bad life. And I still have a mostly bad life, at age 70. He was abusive in various ways, and I was his slave, from age 7 to age 12. By age 9 1/2, my life was ruined. Nothing I did in life could make me happy. I pretended to be his best friend, but I HATED him more than anyone else I knew. I didn’t let ANYONE know that I didn’t like him, for five years. I kept it secret from everyone, that I didn’t like him, with the possible exception of a life-affirming college girl who worked for us. I might have told her a little bit about Larry. And I think I told my baby brother, in his crib, about Larry–it was someone I could tell, without him telling my parents or anyone else. After a certain point, I feared he would beat me up so bad, that I would end up in the hospital, if Larry found out that I didn’t like him. Other than that, as far as I can remember, I kept it secret, from everyone, until I was 12. At age 12, my family and I were away on vacation, and things were good, but the night before we were to return home from our vacation, I was up the hill from my parents, and I was crying, and my parents insisted on knowing why I was crying, so reluctantly I told them about Larry, about what had been going on for five years, though I maybe didn’t tell them about the molestation part. My parents were concerned, and after we got home, they were talking about Larry, and Larry was in our house, and I thought he might have overheard my parents, and might have found out that I didn’t like him. I couldn’t stand the suspense, so I started crying big-time, and Larry said “Chris, I’ve never seen you cry like THIS before”, so I told him, that I’d ben his slave and didn’t like him. He just walked away and went home, at one point looking back at me as if to say “you dirty double-crosser”. And it was all over (except I still have huge amounts of Pain from this slave relationship). Life was a lot better after the slavery was over, but still not really good. Shane, maybe you are a more admirable person than me, in that you’ve felt so bad about not being a friend to this boy that came into your life, while I gave in to the boy that came into my life, and he ruined my life (and of course I hated him).

  2. Phil says:

    So much very painful stuff.
    It made me reflect, do I have anything like that? An immediate thought was no.
    Not true though. I have that aspect but I can’t say that much of it has come up in feelings.
    My mother so sick and I can’t recall trying hard to offer her any comfort except for Christmas presents, and that wasn’t so much my idea. Maybe because she treated me badly and I was overwhelmed, but just the same.
    My older brother who I did sometimes try to help at the request of my father but not nearly enough. He always had many problems and often I ran away when he wanted me as a friend. In a way, somewhat similar at times to that kid you mention at the back door. Other times we did get along as normal brothers do but as time went by he was continually in decline. I don’t think any of this was really my fault, but just the same.
    Later he became deeply psychotic and I never tried hard enough to help and that continues to this day.
    My father, when older, needing more attention and companionship and I didn’t really come through with that. He didn’t quite come through for me as I needed either, but just the same.
    As I write this I’m realizing maybe I have felt some on all this, because I can feel the tears rising.
    It’s maybe only touched on in a lot of general sadness I get to,
    I can really relate to what you wrote to Barry.

    • Shane says:

      I usually felt overwhelmed and helpless in the face the suffering of others and inert in the face of their needs. I have been largely disassociated from my own needs so it has always been a struggle to recognize the needs of others. Adding to my sense of helplessness. I never really knew what “help” might consist of beyond quiet empathy. And though that may be just what the doctor ordered it always felt limp and ineffectual to me. Since I feel limp and ineffectual.

  3. Jack Waddington says:

    Shane: Great blog article and very feeling-full and extremely honest. Hope to see you make comments to the blog now. There’s obviously more from where that came from.

    Good luck Shane Jack

  4. Margaret says:


  5. Erron says:

    Shane, I can relate in that the very worst feelings I am going through at the moment are to do with the damage I have done to other people in my craziness. I wish you well with it. I have to believe you (we) will get through it in time.

  6. Phil says:

    I agree in that if you are feeling it you will get through this very painful stuff eventually
    I was realizing my own first reaction to this letter was about me. That’s also
    maybe what this is about, stuff in the way preventing being there for anyone else.
    But that was my first reaction and don’t know Shane or whether he will come on the blog or not.
    I hope so then we can become acquainted here.
    I think the letter is also a great opening to further (painful) discussions, if we want to have them.

  7. Margaret says:

    as my mom’s phone still does not seem to be connnected, I decided to give her new ward a call to check on how she is doing.
    for my own sake, needing the contact and to be reassured.
    I got a very friendly nurse on the phone, who told me mom is doing fine, that she is being very helpful towards other people. she told me she had taken mom for a walk to the room of a couple of her old friends who live in another part of the building.
    I thanked her as that was a very sweet thing to do for my mom.
    then she got mom on the phone for me who sounded lively and happy, but who also said she was very happy with my call.
    she is so sweet these days, she always was but not as much as she consistently is nowadays.
    she said she is not much in her room in case the phone would work again, as she spends most of her time with other people, which is very nice to hear, she sounds happy there and she seems in very caring hands, which touches me and reassures me and eases my mind…

    still feel sad about my limitations to go there and join the activities and help out, but well, let’s count our blessings.
    just a few days left for my exam so it is good to have the time to study and relax as well.

    found out once more that when I have codeine paikillers at home, I hardly can pass one night without taking at least half a tablet, so now as the box is finished, I am more dicided to not renew my prescription for as long as possible, as it is clear I do not have enough control to just take one say once a week or so, so I am better off not having them around at all.
    as a matter of fact it feels again as a relief to have finished the box, might have a couple of nights waking up a lot but I feel more and more healthy in my voyage towards going without completely.
    on the up side is more vivid dreams, a more healthy body, better access to my feelings, and no blaming myself for doing something I feel I should not do.
    every time I go without they are less on my mind after just a few days, so things go definitely in the right direction.
    finally I have reached the point of admitting to myself that no, I can’t have as much control as I would want, so I am better off going without entirely.

    so glad I did call the nursing home, it changed my mood so much knowing my mom is fine, content and feeling safe!
    makes me able to relax as well, haaa….

    should now soon go back to improving my own life, and loking up a contact site for seniors that won’t refuse me for being 59..

  8. Margaret says:

    Barry, Shane,
    thanks for that post.
    what got to me most were the words ‘the worst’..
    they reminded me of the feelings I had to go through two years ago, triggered by having to let my cat be euthanized.
    the feelings that rose to the surface were so incredibly painful compared to all I had felt before, like a hundred times worse, like the old stuff was like a kind of relief, while that pain felt like pure ongoing agony for weeks.
    I htink the difference might partly lay in having that kind of feeling with our present, adult full body and mind, a big pain felt entirely in the present, loaded with the old stuff as well…

    it sounds like it is the adult you, Shane, letting in the feeling about past pain and damage done, grieving, remorse, regret..

    to me I am reminded of times as a child I hit my dog with his leash, not often and not too badly, on his thick furred back mostly, but simply out of frustration he would not behave like my horse in front of my Ben Hur imaginary carriage, while I desperately wanted to feel I had a horse. weird story probably, the botom line being I was blinded by my own need and pain to the distress I caused in that poor dog probably.
    and also the time I whipped a horse for not jumping over the hurdle as I wanted, I feel so sorry about that as well…

    me causing pain and fear to an animal is so opposite to all what matters to me now, that it shows the unaware unfeeling me I was, focused on getting my own needs met…
    sorry to those horses as well, and sorry to everyone I used in some way or another.
    suddenly feel tears coming up…

    you must have been in a lot of pain, Shane, and have come a long way so to hear.
    it would be lovely to read some more of you on this blog, in any case all the best from me, Margaret

    • Shane says:

      I’m sure the death of your cat was very hard.
      I’ve just begun to feel adult Pain. I mean Pain I repressed as an adult. That has been novel because in three decades of therapy my feelings have confined themselves to early adolescence and younger.

  9. Sylvia says:

    I can relate, Margaret, to being short-tempered to pets growing up, and not seeing their needs like my dog scratching on the glass porch door to be let in and join us in our cozy room, and me ignoring her. Sorry for that.

    Shane your regrets remind me of one of mine in particular. About twenty years ago in our rural area a traveling homeless man of about sixty yrs., with probably all he owned on his back, knocked on our door early in the morning. He was hungry and had watery eyes. No one else in the house was up and I was a little afraid. When he asked for food I just sort of stuttered, and he said, ‘that was okay, don’t worry,’ and he went on. I later thought if I’d had the forethought to tell him to please wait at the tree, I would get him something to eat, it would have made it safe for me and he could have eaten. I still feel badly about that, and the painfulness of it doesn’t lessen no matter how often I think about it.

    • Phil says:

      Sylvia and Margaret,
      I have some incidents with pets as well. I have a reoccurring dream concerning pets over populating. Something to do with animals being out of control and it’s my responsibility to take care of them.
      I think it has to do with having guinea pigs as a child and a lot of excitement with that which eventually wore off. The task of taking care of them became tedious and I didn’t always stay on top of it and the animals suffered, and other factors which make this something which repeats in dreams, sometimes in bizarre ways. I’m probably better off not having pets.

    • Shane says:

      I understand those moments when you wish you could relive it and make it right.

  10. Jack Waddington says:

    Last night after going to bed I started to have these mini convulsions, as I call them … again. I am not sure if they are a precursor to something else. They would happen about ever five to ten seconds apart. They went on for an hour and a quarter … I have a digital clock by my bedside.
    There were not sad, angry, frightening or upsetting in any way; they just were. I was able to just let them happen and did not try and stop them. The insight was they were the beginnings of my mother going into labor with me.

    It would be interesting if anyone else has had similar feelings. I cannot believe they are purely unique to me.


  11. Jo says:

    Your mention, Barry, of “the Primal/Existential horror of what was done to many of us seems to have its mirror image in the scar tissue we may have contributed to in the lives of the people we love.” reminds me of my contribution…notably to my kids, in those unconscious years; and since therapy and becoming aware, how guilt racked I was, then feeling the horror of it.
    Shane, your honest email to Barry is so moving to read, especially the way you wrote about the little guy with ringworm…it sure is terribly painful these realisations.

    • Shane says:

      My parental guilt is excruciating. I understand my disability, that I did not have what they needed. But as I feel deeper and deeper into my life and the connections between all that happened, my increasing recognition of just how absent as a parent I was, absent to the needs of my children, the pain of it all only increases. It hurts so much.

  12. Tom, So nice to see you back on the blog! You were missed! Gretch

  13. Shane , I just read you post again…. radioactive! Wow, that says it all! Gretch

    • Shane says:

      I do think it is a fitting metaphor. The feeling is so much like I am radiating my inadequacies, repelling everyone around me.

      • secretariat7 says:

        Is there any hope that we will evolve as humans to more empathic? or are we doomed? Shane, I wish all of these writings could be telepathically sent to everyone who is suffering so they do not feel as alone….

        • jackwaddington says:

          Secretartiat7: I am not sure I totally understand your comment, but assume you are asking that we humans can evolve to [be] more empathetic. I don’t feel it is a matter of evolving from neurosis to a state of non neurosis for humanity. It is a matter IMO of returning to our REAL Natural selves.

          The quest then becomes how???? I don’t think is ever going to be possible for all of humanity to get Primal therapy with a adequately trained Primal therapist. So! as I see it, we either need a self-help book on being able to regain our “real natural selves” OR, to eliminate that, that causes parents to {inadvertently I grant in most cases} to traumatize our babies causing the baby the only option, amnesia; and thence become neurotic. I contend (just my contention) the only way to do that is to stop all forms of control, (and that includes our babies), and by shear nature, we prevent the next generation from becoming neurotic. That controlling factor, I feel very strongly, is to abolish the greatest controlling factor preventing such a transition is “MONEY”.

          However, that transition also needs a great deal of consideration … not impossible IMO,


  14. Otto Codingian says:

    I have so many regrets about the millions of times that my actions have caused pain to many living beings. cant fix that. cry sometimes. lately, i have not wanted to help anyone. maybe give some bucks to a bum, but usually i need them to ask for it, since i gave some to a lady once who maybe was not homeless. a kid sitting on the sidewalk, with his friend standing. quick decision because all i wanted to do is get home after the millionth day of long hard boring work. i slowed a little and looked from my driver’s seat. the standing friend did not look worried so i sped off. i did not pay forward this time, for what others had given to me previously. whatever. i am just another lonely harried tired sick old man who cares but has basically had enough of this sick world. whatever. now i need to get this shit out of me, and i never will–where are you mommy???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  15. Otto Codingian says:

    not sure jack. my birth would feel like i am locked in a safe, paralyzed maybe. i will post something in a minute about movement and reversal of damage done to living creatures.

  16. Otto Codingian says:

    • secretariat7 says:

      oh my f***ing god. Why are people still eating meat in this day and age? Animals are just as feeling as humans, why are humans living so primitively while our technology evolves, yet humans are not growing wiser? Where is the empathy?

      • secretariat7 says:

        I mean, I understand humans that live with and in harmony with the land and the animals in a dynamic of life and survival involving respect for any killing, but I meant on a commercialized horrific level as it is today…

  17. Otto Codingian says:

    something touching me, not sure why BABY YOU’RE A RICH MAN

  18. Otto Codingian says:

    I guess 67 was when things started to go wrong again. damn.

  19. Otto Codingian says:

    back from group. i feel really bad. not sure why. feel like a freak in group. all alone for 6 or more months. no sex for even longer. dead mom. Horrible miserable life, as far as i am concerned. i dont notice that i am feeling bad in group. not till driving home. too many tales of joy and sorrow that i heard. going to taco bell. i have had enough of this pain. it is pretty much useless to think i will ever resolve enough of it so that i feel even 10 percent normal. going to go get my food drug. i too am pretty tired of this shit.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: On reading this last comment of yours I feel very sad. I can’t quite put my finger on it other than to say it touched something inside me. Yes! there is a part of me feels for you, but under that it has to do with me.

      This is my third attempt to write a reply to you. I scraped the first two. I just want to aknowledge that someone here is reading and responding to you. It’s your despair that grabs me.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I remember some time ago I read a story in the LA Times about this young boy that got locked up in a closet for three years … then died. Even after all this time after reading that story, it still grabs me. I’m crying now. I was never locked away in a closet … but I was locked away in my own neurotic closet. I suppose I find it hard to think that no-one else ever mentioned it on the blog.

        I sure know the feeling of beginning to die when I called for my mammy and she didn’t come. I know this is my Primal scene. She finally did arrive and took me in her arms. Had it been sometime later I just know I would have been the case of a ‘crib death’. Gotta lay on my bed now and cry this out. Meantime Otto, I hope you too are able feel your despair. These feeling never go away … BUT eventually, if I feel them enough, they become less debilitating.


  20. Otto Codingian says:

    Thanks Jack. I guess despair is not the word I was thinking of, maybe more like DESPAIR? fuck this shit. give me a break, lord. what did i do in any past life to deserve this? Better not say more or he will smite me some more.

  21. Otto Codingian says:

    Jack, praise be that your mammy came!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Yeah!!!!!! but ONLY just. I don’t know how long I might have lasted. I must have been real close since she later told me I was blue. I often wonder about it … but yeah she did come back … eventually!!!!!!! AND she had the good sense to pick me up and hold me for, according to her, one hour … shaking and rocking me.


  22. Otto Codingian says:

    Scar tissue. I think i got the 3 stooges have been operating on this scar tissue of mine. i am not talking about BB or GB. I think the 3 stooges, who have all gone to the black a while back, were assigned to be guardian angels of me, and we are just not having the best of results here with this brain surgery. They seem to be doing more harm than good.”Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fein, Dr. Howard”. Moe keeps hitting Curly when he is aiming his scalpel. Larry is looking at the young nurse’s behind and dropping the anersthesia line to the little dog who snuck under the operating table. thanks buddy stooges!.i don’t see my neurons (or ganglions or whatever those entities in my head might be called) getting over that minefield of scar tissue to neurons on the other side, ever. ah, fucked-up strong imagination of mine and of many artists! that kept me alive, but what the fuck for? some tiny good times and more giant patches of despair. whatever.

  23. Sylvia says:

    Hey Otto, HI. Have you ever watched some people on the internet just for entertainment? There are a couple of gals on there who always make me feel happy that they are enjoying their day. If you want to have a hoot, watch: ‘Linda’s pantry’ and ‘Jill Mckeever.’ I just like the idea that people are getting along with their families and it’s nice they are showing it to us. Though it reminds me of ‘The Truman show’ where Jim Carey’s character’s life was on display for all to see, though on the internet the people are aware they are being watched.
    Anyway, just wanted you to have a fun few minutes to share with the other viewers.

  24. Sylvia says:

    Otto, forgot to say watch them on you tube.
    Have a nice day.

  25. Vicki says:

    In group last week, I was feeling like I am in a hole, a black hole, there’s nothing I can do, I have felt this way many times before, a very old feeling. It went on for almost two hours, until I felt it was not going to go anywhere or change, and I left, got out of there. Leaving in my car, I felt, “I’m all alone, I don’t exist. I don’t exist. I don’t exist. I don’t exist.” Over and over, close to tears, “I don’t exist” was all the words.

    That feeling has haunted me all week since. I had a nice catching-up talk with an old friend this morning, but now that’s over. I’m alone in my house, and I just wander, acting like I can’t do anything. Miserable, I sat down in my living room, and started thinking, “Am I just waiting for someone to come and save me?” THAT feels bad. What can I do? Am I just going to be alone forever. Always feeling alone.

    I just felt so BAD. I stop caring about myself, I start feeling like I just want to die. It’s scary. Like I just want to let it all go. I was just sitting out there, feeling miserable, “angry, and sorry for myself. It hurts.” Then I wondered what I’m angry about. I’m feeling angry at my mom. Looking at her, “I’m angry at you, you just left me all alone. You didn’t even try to save me. You couldn’t even find it in your heart, to come and pick me up, and hug me, and take care of me.” She couldn’t find anything inside herself, to make her want to care about me. (That feeling is when I decided to come and write this here). She was bankrupt. I see the deadness, the vacant look on her face, whenever I “look” at her.

    “You couldn’t even muster enough energy, to be aware of how bad I was feeling. You couldn’t find a way to love me! How was I supposed to survive, how was I supposed to survive that! “How am I supposed to survive, without you? Mom, what am I supposed to do, what kind of a life can I have, you’re not here! You’re not here with me. You don’t even know I exist! You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom! The only one I have, and you’re not. You’re not there. You’re not there. You’re not there.”

    I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I don’t know how I can go on, how I can find a way to take care of myself. I just don’t have it in my heart, I don’t have the strength. I stop caring about myself, I start feeling like I just want to die. Saying all this feels a little better. Being a bit clearer about the origin of my misery. I have to keep moving on, trying to find a way to make my life better. Not easy.

    • Sylvia says:

      Vicki, it sounds like you have got to the root of feeling bad and alone. Very powerful stuff, and good insights clarifying what you need to do now about going forward and make your life more like you want it.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: Wow and wow again! So. so sad What must the little Vicky have felt like, not having a mom to pick her up and hug her and care for her. Tell us more.

      Geesus!!!!! what is it like not having a mom to care and love you? I’m really curious to know.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Vicki: Sorry … I did it again and you once mentioned it to me before. Spelling never was my thing. Sorry agian.


        • Vicki says:

          Thanks, Jack, for making that effort to spell my name correctly. It does matter to me, although I have given up complaining, mostly, because so few people can “get” it. Thanks.

    • Phil says:

      I hope you can get more relief from this, the old feeling and moving forward with your life.

      • Vicki says:

        Sylvia, Jack, and Phil — thanks. I continued to “wallow” awhile this afternoon, kept wanting to sleep, but after a nap, I got up and did some productive work — swept my front porch, did the dishes, organized some trash to go out, and did a little weeding in my backyard. I just feel a bit more alive, and not so immobile. Still wanting to do more tonight.

    • Larry says:

      God, how you are feeling sounds like such a awful place to be, Vicki! I How can a little kid ever cope with that. I hope you are able to find some good in life for you.

      • Vicki says:

        Thanks, Larry. I would have thought that my feeling might be similarly familiar to you, as you were “left alone” without mom and dad, as a child. A nice aunt and uncle help, it’s true, but then losing them, only to be back with “mom and dad” strangers, must have been alienating, leaving you more alone and disconnected. At least that’s my memory of when you have described it.

        • Larry says:

          Yes Vicki, what you wrote on April 9 resonated in some ways with my feelings about my childhood. Perceptive of you to suspect as much. More and more I’m feeling how shattering it was that there was ‘no one here for me’ when I was just a little kid returning to live with Mom and Dad. The reality was too nightmarish to acknowledge. I became trapped in not being able to meet my needs from other people, not being able to relax and trust and let them in when they were nice and caring toward me, and thereafter and forever trapped in pain and self-inflicting the reality of the feeling that I don’t belong. It’s lucky for me that my parents weren’t also hateful the way you describe yours were.

          Work friends are getting me involved in planning a retirement celebration (lunch? party?) for me. When they retire some people have a weekend house party. Others just quietly go to lunch with a few friends on their retirement. Though I recoil from the attention, the decades of memories of working alongside them are meaningful and I want a celebratory good-bye with my work friends. Upon being prompted, I chose a restaurant and requested a retirement lunch on my last day of work, Tuesday, April 25, of a select group of 25 people rather than an open invitation to the entire research organization. Today friends made the reservation at the restaurant. I drew up the list of names and emailed out the invitation today. It’s all so final. I’m caving in. I hurt. Soon I will no longer be part of that work life intermingled with theirs. I will be adrift and alone in unfamiliar seas, hoping I have the health, stamina, discipline and will power to find a meaningful course and friendly shores.

          • Vicki says:

            Wow, two weeks away! I had not been keeping up here, and did not know your retirement is almost upon you. Are you having to do any final trainings for others to take over, or have you already done those things? What will you be doing in your last two weeks there? Besides repeatedly talking to everybody about it.

          • Larry says:

            I’m only working 2.5 days a week, Vicki. Have been since Jan or Feb, using up vacation time, getting adjusted to having a lot of time on my hands and crying a lot when I do. My boss is retired but still has her office and still comes in to finish writing research papers. I’m still doing interesting data analysis for her, and routine help for others. The routine stuff can be easily learned by new junior technicians starting next month. There are other experienced technicians around to help them with less routine matters. No one else is likely to need the rather unique and complex data analysis that my now retired boss has needed of me particularly the last 5 years or so.

            So I only actually have 5 working days left, and plenty to keep me busy and at the same time tidy up and wind things down.

            It’s a sad and scary time for me. Makes me remember leaving home, or leaving LA, feeling all of sad, scared, and excited. I’ve been crying that Noreen should be here. I’ve been crying how upon leaving home I had to reach out and trust people and found some who gave me emotional support and encouragement and helped me to get here, but from when I moved back home at 4 years old I never ever dared to reach out to my parents because they were dead unto themselves, just not there. I needed them then. I need them now. Now I cry needing them and feel the vulnerability and hurt of them never being there for me.

    • secretariat7 says:

      Vicki, I relate…I’m glad to read this and not feel as “alone” either.

  26. Otto Codingian says:

    rough, vicki, rough. hope you get through it. i hope you can get some solace from the dog, even if you don’t see her that much. i don’t get a lot of solace from my dog, she does not have the personality that some of my other pets had.

    • Vicki says:

      Yes, Otto, she is “the love of my life”, that is for sure. I get to see her for 3-4 hours every 3 or 4 weeks. She is happy, hanging out with their other dog all day. I don’t believe she is the happiest there as she was at her best moments with me, I have some pictures where she is just glowing — but as a whole she is happier not being inundated by the terror of fireworks every day. So that’s what I remember, for letting her go, even though it hurts, and I’m often sad about that.

  27. Otto Codingian says:

    Sylvia, i am pretty down, don’t even feel like looking at youtube or cnn or anything. took the dog to the park early this morn and will go again later once the crowds thin out. all i see is women women women at the park that remind me of my lost mom and i feel crappy throughout the whole walk. i go back to work tomorrow which will kill the pain somewhat. i will look at those channels you mentioned later.

  28. Otto Codingian says:

    Sylvia, i am too depressed to make a salad. (Our Favorite Salad with 3 Dressings We Lurv…Jill McKeever). I went to Ralphs to get organic lettuce and there was a guy picking up broccolli and examining each bit of it carefully, then he went on to the next bunch, so i left. I went to Whole Foods and wanted to get lettuce but they only had it in plastic bags and all the fit young women depressed me. what am i saying? heck if i know. anyway, thanks for the thought, which is helpful.

  29. Otto Codingian says:

    this gripped me at the end. people having too much fun, and me—NOT!

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, thank you for the video. The dancing at the end reminded me of square dancing time in the third grade that I loved. I was always looking forward to maybe being paired-up with ‘Mark’ the tall dark-haired boy, a crush for several years, though he probably never knew it. It was so great and innocent and we all shared a closeness twirling around as little friend-classmates.
      On Jill’s salad I would have left out the broccoli and maybe put in a chopped egg.

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks, Otto. I enjoyed that. I found it on Youtube, and sent it to a friend.

  30. Otto Codingian says:

    Oh my fucking god! i am so sad. “This lovely video shows us why we are so good as a living vibrant country. Happiness abounds and long live the young musicians who give us this pleasure.”

  31. Otto Codingian says:

    Look at the woman on the right, she can barely contain her tears. Is it her son playing the piano?
    Magnetic Rag – Frank Livolsi

  32. Otto Codingian says:

    A different roll of the dice and that would have been my mom watching me play……

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, if only….
      She does seem to be really into the music. Wonderful piece. The fellow two seats away looks like Rob Reiner, though not as smiley.

  33. Leslie says:

    Hi Margaret,
    Thanks for asking about my mom – way back there. She is in excellent health – 87 – no meds & lots of activities i.e. hiking, cycling, yoga and in a choir. She lives downtown – an hour away in an apt. with 2 close friends ( my age) in the same bldg. She goes to lots of plays, movies and out to dinner with these 2 & many other friends. She is definitely an inspiration and recommends younger friends as so many of hers her age have sadly died. We are close & enjoy good visits together.

    This is after many years of therapy for me however and her apologies and acknowledgement of her horrible marriage with my dad and thus a sad, twisted family life for all of us. I have a sister & 2 brothers and we are all close, have done different therapies & share seeing our mom.

    Thank you for sharing your letter Shane. I remember you from years ago. It takes so much to unearth all you are. Painful stuff.
    So glad to see/feel the blog now!

    • Shane says:

      Thanks Leslie. It’s been a slog. I’m going through a new period in therapy. Quite different than any I had previously experienced. My defenses have collapsed. I am flooded with feelings at an unprecedented rate.

  34. Margaret says:

    there still are 17 comments to read this morning, but I feel like replying already to the comment from Jack or the comment from Otto to which Jack wrote he resonates with Otto’s despair.
    I do too, this morning I woke up after a good night’s sleep, no nightmares but pleasant dreams, and still I felt so hopeless and alone suddenly. it al seemed so void of meaning, leading nowhere, an awful feeling and very paralyzing and bleak.

    one of my cats came up to lay on top of me and then in my arm, reaching out with his big paws to put them softly on my face, purring and stretching and loving to be cuddled, which helped a little bit to break out of the paralizing hopelessness..
    still it lingers, and it also dawned on me part of it seems to be linked to going without the reassuring knowledge of having one soothing moment in the evening with the effect of (half a ) painkiller and its relaxing and calming rising feeling.

    now it is just me, alone and on my own in what feels like an indifferent world where real intimacy is out of reach, or volatile and momentary at best..

    it is a kind of devastating feeling of aloneness, and the only consolation I can give myself is it is the same kind of feeling that sometimes acutely rises at retreats, at the last one coming out with a fierce desperate but short scream..

    so it is a consolation to know part of it is the old pain coming to the suface, and it does not mean there is no fun or companionship ahead in my present life..
    which feels to empty nevertheless right now, in reality and still in the feeling..
    have to sign up for a senior dating agency, or try to at least, have to keep fighting and moving. despite feeling tired and hopeless, discouraged….

  35. Margaret says:

    you described so well that feeling that resonates with me.
    for me it is like I don’t count, I am not part of anything really, am on my own, not wanted, no one really interested in me.
    it is a sad feeling and threatening as it is so hopeless and all encompassing..

  36. Margaret says:

    that comment you wrote about it could have been you with another roll of the dice struck me.
    it must be so hard to have to grieve about what has not happened, all the things you missed out on, which also goes for Guru.
    it is an endless kind of loss..

    in my own way it is like thinking about all the stuff I can’t see and do anymore without proper eyesight.
    despite not being helpful if on my mind all the time, the grieving needs to be done every now and then…
    we can only make the best of a bad situation..

  37. Margaret says:

    ha, glad this came up again, as I remember spelling your name with an i in the end and then someone pointed out it was wrong, so I changed it again!
    was even thinking about it a number of times, thought I had mixed it up with another Vicky I know, that one with an y then…

    Leslie, that is one healthy mom you have with what sounds like a good old age!
    and I agree the blog now is really nice to join into, it is nice to follow the interactions and support and to be part of things..

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks, Margaret, it did bother me that you spelt it incorrectly, but I just thought you couldn’t remember, so I gave up trying. Yes, please with an “i”.

  38. Margaret says:

    what made you leave group and not talk about what went on for you there?
    I am curious as talking or not talking still remains a dilemma for me too often.
    leaving is even more drastic of course..

    • Vicki says:

      Margaret, at group all I could feel was the worst of it, in a hole, a black hole, just sinking into it, getting worse. Same as numerous times before. No words. I could barely hear what people were saying. I couldn’t feel anything except “sinking”. No desire or impulse to say anything. I just wanted out. I thought about going to the back room, but whenever I’ve done that before, although it usually helps move the feeling a bit further, I’m always still left IN it, and not in a good way. Whenever I have “talked about” what I’m feeling, it’s just always felt like I was being distracted from my reality. Like where people wanted me to be, rather than where I was. In that pain, I am easily led astray, or allow myself to be influenced into strange places, where I feel more disconnected. I don’t like that. I think I’d rather feel worse, but connected to it. Otherwise, I start losing the feeling of who I really am, of being a person. I’m not sure I can put it any better.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Vicki: “the worst of it, in a hole, a black hole, just sinking into it, getting worse”
        It sounds to me that that is the very core of your being.
        “I start losing the feeling of who I really am, of being a person. I’m not sure I can put it any better”
        I feel there ‘there is no better way to put it’. Sounds right on to me.


    • Vicki says:

      What I did do was not perfect either. I left, mostly feeling relieved “to be out of that hole”. Before I left, I did have fleeting thoughts of fear, anger, but as soon as I paid attention to them, they went away. The sinking feeling of being in a black hole was the main event.

      In my car, I had the “I don’t exist” feelings, and that was all there was. I felt relieved just with that. Then I was just determined to function, practically, things for my life, motion — those things get me out of “the hole” in an immediate, benign way, but allow me still to feel like “myself”. I was headed home, but suddenly remembered the Farmer’s Market was still open, so I went there, walked, ate, and bought strawberries. I had been wanting to go there for some weeks, but hadn’t had the time. So it was good exercise, and made me feel like a person, and that I can function, and not just want to die. I felt good about that, even though I was still “in” the feeling and I did not imagine it would go away.

  39. Margaret says:

    it sounds like you made the right choice by leaving and focusing on and staying in the feeling, and writing about it here then.


  40. Margaret says:

    I also like you just trusted your own judgement about what seemed best for you to do.

  41. Margaret says:

    reading about your upcoming retirement an idea crossed my mind.
    you sound like a good landscape photographer, wouldn’t it be a nice gesture to give the office a goodbye present in the form of a framed photograph?
    at the same time something truely yours would remain there and be enjoyed by everyone passing by.
    just an idea..

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Quote:- “As far as my ‘banning’ it’s just another example of the disgusting shutting down of free speech and thinking that the ‘tribe’ is famous for another small example close to home”.

      Free speach is NOT what this blog is about. Since you seemingly need to be constantly reminded:- It’s about the expression on ones feelings.
      I wonder … what is the feeling behind this new tirade??????

      I doubt, sadly, even you know. Jack

  42. Larry says:

    When does the ban start!

    • Vicki B. says:

      Apparently never. Unless Gretchen is willing to delete him every single time he posts.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        The problem as I see it is that Patrick has no-where else to go. He’s on automatic (neurotic) auto pilot … a crooked thinker, that HOPES his intellect comes across. Little realizing that here in this blog; we all see through him.


  43. miguel says:

    Hi every body:
    Very Deep and moving article: Shane and Barry. We are hurt and we hurt somebody. In that case it is difficult sometimes just to say I am so sorry it is the hardest word to say or not? Many times many people even killing other persons for exoterical and ideological reasons, are incapable of just saying “I am so sorry”

    I always liked Elton John, particularly this song : sorry seems to be the hardest word


    • Shane says:

      I don’t find it hard to apologize. And if that were all that were required, all the hurt I’ve caused would be healed.

  44. Margaret says:

    Larry, your reply choked me up this morning.
    a dark place indeed…
    this night I lay awake for maybe two hours, feeling plainly bad in a bleak and hopeless way.
    all kind of scary thoughts wanting to come up about things that might go wrong, making me more tense and awake while I wanted to sleep and rest as my exam is in just two hours , 9.30 this morning.
    from tense and anxious I went to really feeling deeply my life is meaningless..
    part of it being more hopeless without my eyesight which used to make the world still always interesting to explore at least, even under bad circumstances.
    now there is little rescue left when I feel like this…
    my cats help, one finally jumped on the bed and curled up against my back, purring, and that gave me some immediate little bit of relaxation.
    still I felt bad enough, thinking if ever I get a stroke for example making me more disabled in any way, I would go for euthanasia, that kind of thoughts….
    at some point I thought of my dad and mentally asked him to help me, feeling aware of the fact that emotionally he still seems to be there somewhere, against all rationality…
    then I fell asleep after a while, and had a nice peaceful dream about simply being with him in the kitchen of our old house, just doing little things. then he got up and I asked him where he would be going, and he said, well, I don’t really know, but he still sounded at ease..
    I woke up feeling less bad, got up at 6.30 and am now starting to read the comments of today during my breakfast….
    hope this feeling clears up as it is well, very unpleasant..
    sadness, fear, hopelessness, and a void, meaninglessness of my life and expectations and hopes…

    I remember my mom once said to me, about 30 years ago or so, when she was in a depressed mood, that life seemed so meaningless and pointless to her, and I remember not really getting the meaning or sense of what she was saying, trying to cheer her up, thinking that was a pointless thing to ponder about, the pointlessness of life, ha!
    she grew over it, hopefully I do too, little smiley..

  45. Larry says:

    I guess your hopelessness touched me, Margaret, because I’ve been experiencing the feeling myself as retirement approaches. I am older and weaker and tire more easily than I used to. Arthritis in my back is flaring up. I feel alone with my future and wonder what will my retirement be like if I can’t take care of myself or enjoy myself. Sometimes I feel frightened and hopeless about not being able to take care of myself but lucky for me I’m able to take the time to cry and feel into it, and a big part of it is submerged feeling from childhood. I’d be in a mess if I couldn’t access those childhood feelings.

  46. Otto Codingian says:

    Sylvia, i had a little girlfriend in the 3rd grade, then we moved for some reason and i lost her. walked down to the licquor store payphone for some days to call her, dont remember much after that. in the 4th grade at the new place, we also had square dancing. the girl i was paired up with did not want me to hold her hand, which i think was part of the dance. another girl was mean to me because i messed up some group art project because i misunderstood what they were doing. rough year. any time i see dancing, i get excited about it, but i don’t think that is the reason why.

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, that does sound like a rough year. Moving away from friends would’ve freaked me out. Isn’t it something how attached we are to our little friends and others at that age. I remember in the 2nd grade our teacher left to have her baby. I was so attached to her that I missed her every day. I guess I saw my teachers as parents because of spending all day with them.
      Drat that girl who was mean to you.

      • Otto Codingian says:

        maybe i smelled or something. no one really to talk to at home about it. so life remained a mystery for ages.

  47. Otto Codingian says:

    Jack, my mom walked out the front door one day and i don’t think she returned. i think the doorknob was the last i saw of her. 10 months old, me. she had polio, they probably took her to the hospital and my grandma said she was put in an iron lung. i got shipped to my mean uncle’s house, he was from Texas, where they all have an Apache mean streak. they hang more people in Texas than any other state in the U.S. my mom died 8 months later. my grandmother visited my mom every day and put a See’s chocolate in her mouth from time to time, so she could have a quick taste of it. did i feel her angst via the magnetic cosmic rays that connect us all? no idea if those rays transmit like that, and i was probably in too much angst to feel her if they do exist. magnetic cosmic rays, my ass….Anyway, 10 months of a devoted sweet young piano-playing mom, and a houseful of other lively women too. that went away.

  48. Patrick says:

    The heavy hand of the censor is everywhere and once again the degenarted and ultra conventional official primal world is no exception. They like to pretend they are ‘different’ but not really I guess I should know by now


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Quote:- “The heavy hand of the censor is everywhere and once again the degenarted and ultra conventional official primal world is no exception. They like to pretend they are ‘different’ but not really I guess I should know by now”

      So! being censored really is the crux of your current bitterness. It was originally me, and then it turned on the guy that that refused to shake your hand at the retreat, and then became Arthur Janov and anything to do with his findings and work, then it became Gretchen and now it’s Jews. Yeah!!!!! Well the guy that invented your Catholisim was a Jew His name was Jesus … don’t know if he had a last name … it might have been Christ.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I saw a program on TV last night about Spain and Italy celebrating Easter. The death of the inventor of Chrisianity. If my memory serves me well I was taught that he led a very simple life and yet the celebration of his death was of the most outrageous of pomp and circumstance with all the trapping of (to my mind) extravagance, no expense spared, and Pomp … that even topped anything the British ever came up with … and boy, do they love all their pomp.

        So Patrick … what’s your real beaf??????


        • Larry says:

          Sorry. That link doesn’t take you directly there. This one does.

        • Erron says:

          Jack, it has to be asked: why do you want Patrick on this blog? He has been banned and yet you continually bait him and invite him to come back and participate.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Erron: I am not absolutely sure why I continue to bait Patrick. Knowing him as well as I do, having being involved with him for more than 30 years, does account for some of my re-actions to him. He’s done his utmost ever since I did not fully comply with his wishes in the company he gave to 4 employees. Even though I perhaps contributed more than any other single employee to the company for over 25 years.

            I have no regrets that he didn’t chose me to become one of the new owners … but over the period of knowing him I always felt he had some resentment towards me. I know not quite what.

            Lastly I do not believe that my baiting or ignoring him wouldn’t make a scrap of difference to his using this blog for his own purposes. However, if you have a different idea of how I should re-act to him let me know and I will give that great consideration. I have no problem with having the ‘mirror’ held up to myself.


            • Erron says:

              Well, my thoughts are: 1. Ignore him on the blog 2. Have your feelings about him off the blog.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                I will give consideration to your suggestion Erron … BUT that does not mean, I might continue with the baits. I re-iterate …”I love blogging”


                • Erron says:

                  …”I love blogging”

                  – what’s blogging got to do with it? You are caught in a death-grip struggle you can’t win, with an old foe. I run blogs for a (meagre) living and that statement is offensive to all the people I know who really blog, as opposed to hanging around online forums to troll folks, something you have fallen into. It’s beneath you, Jack. Let it go…

                  • Jack Waddington says:

                    Erron: I understand what you are saying; BUT I disagree. Blogging has a lot to do with it for me. There is both pleasure and keeping my mind on being an active thinker.
                    I do find it a bit rich Erron that you seem to KNOW I AM in a “death-grips stuggle”
                    There’s a good chance however, you are right.


            • Patrick says:


          • Larry says:

            I had the same reaction as Erron. Jack and Patrick both ignore that Patrick is banned. It seems Jack you take great pleasure at every opportunity to poke Patrick and lure him on.

            • Phil says:

              I agree. It’s just so striking how Patrick’s presence gets Jack to respond. Ideally, since Patrick is banned, I would think it might be better not to engage. Hard to do I guess.


              • Jack Waddington says:

                Phil: It is not hard for me to ignore Patrick and I have done plenty of that, both in the present and past. I re-state “What ever I do about baiting or not baiting Patrick does not IMO make a scrap if difference. He will continue” Whatever I, or anyone else does or writes.

                One only has to look at Gretchen’s responses to him to see where he goes with any comment about him.


                • Phil says:

                  Jack, It seems to me that our reactions, especially in relation to Patrick’s topics,do prompt him to give more arguments, in a seemingly endless cycle. The poking thing……….to me, something wrong there.

                  • Jack Waddington says:

                    Phil: that’s fine, but that’s your feeling and not mine

                    If Patrick writes something about me. I have no problem with it, and can ignore it as he’s stating what he’s already stated. If on the other hand he writes about ethnic groups, religion, politics or the therapy; then I have a lot to say. That as I understand it, is the very nature of blogging.

                    Why is there something WRONG with that?


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Larry: You are right … it does give me pleasure.


              • Patrick says:

                Well it gives me pain. Does that mean anything to you you old pervert. Why should causing someone else pain give you pleasure…………….because you are a pervert. Nothing that primal therapy seems to have done anything about as I say you came to therapy gay and ended up gayer. Just a fucking twisted old pervert I will not be the least sorry when you pass away. You are a wasted fuck anywan…………

              • Larry says:

                Jack, I can’t but wonder what kind of perversity is it that makes you take pleasure in harassing someone who is in a sense mentally ill?

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  “Jack, I can’t but wonder what kind of perversity is it” Do you Larry feel, it is a “perversity”? I feel there is quite a bit of stuff going on here about me responding to Patrick.
                  I can only FEEL, several of you here, “have a problem” with me responding to Patrick, without stating what YOUR problem is … by responding to him, BUT rather looking into me. I don’t have a problem with it, but I do reflect (rightly or wrongly) on what is motivating you guys.
                  I don’t think, for one moment, Patrick sees himself as sick. Further to repeat, … He’ll continue to comment on this blog for as long as he feels fit.

                  I do try hard to look into many things I re-act to both on and off this blog. I have a relationship whereby I need to do just that on an ongoing basis.


                  • Larry says:

                    Jack, an anorexic/bulimic doesn’t see herself as sick. Harassing such a person is perverse, in my opinion.

                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Larry: I am addressing you first although today you are the last to comment. I see perversity as mainly in reference to sexual deviation, so I do not see my re-action to Patrick as perverse.
                      If my responses to Patrick upsets him that is his problem and NOT my intent. I try carefully not to be insulting and though I am aware that several of you see me as being provocative, that also is not my intent either. I am in the process of making several reflection both upon myself with the intent to give you guys a sense of where I am coming from. That is all. I will post my reflection later.


  49. Patrick says:

    I like

  50. Larry says:

    I have the opportunity to join some people and see a local choir perform next month. Before I put my money down on a ticket, I looked for them on YouTube to hear what they sound like. I once participated in a choir for a little while. I know how impossible it is for me to sing out confidently with crystal clear voice. I’m self aware that I sing quietly, timidly, hidden in the sound of more confident singers around me, my sound a monotone suppressed by a multitude of my repressed ancient feelings. I’m in awe of singers who can blare it out openly and freely, suggestive to me of their easy open childhood and engagement with life.

    I’m surprised that listening to this local choir brought a tear to my eye. Their sound suggests to me emotionally healthy, vibrant people. I’m touched that they are local citizens in my midst. I wish I could have grown up with people like them. My life would have been so different.

    • Sylvia says:

      Jack, I will put my $.02 worth in here. When you comment on Patrick’s post he is entitled to defend himself. It must be a hard habit to break and has become reflexive for you two to ‘go at it’ by now. But we have to listen to all the hate he has for you and it is not conducive to an atmosphere for sharing our vulnerable experiences and feelings.

      So in the spirit of keeping the blog a pleasant and safe place to be and share with each other, I’d say just ignore what he writes because it nullifies the ban in that he seemingly is allowed to defend himself. If you could just ignore him that would be so nice. I have enjoyed the input these last couple of weeks and it seems to be a more inviting place to contribute. For what it is worth, that’s all I have to say about that .

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Sylvia: I felt that your suggestion here was thoughtful and honest, however there is a little more to this, between Patrick and I, than I feel is generally not realized (for me at least)
        As I see it this is a feeling blog whereby we are permitted to express our feelings; whatever those feeling are. To me that is the essence of Primal Therapy and the purpose of this feeling blog. However there are several traps I see in doing so. The first is struggling, the second is defending, and the third is acting out.
        I am currently in the process of making a general response to all that I feel has been taking place these last couple of days, for which I hope to address some of what I feel is taking place here. Meantime for now … Jack

        • Erron says:

          Jack, the essence of feeling is honesty, and there is none of that in what you are saying on this issue. Quite the opposite, you are just being defensive and dishonest. I said earlier your current behaviour is beneath you. It seems I was wrong; maybe it just is you after all.

          You even pretend not to understand the meaning of the word perversity, a curious position for an avowed blogger to take. Do you not even have a basic understanding of the language in which you blog?

          I am just going through your series of defend-the-indefensible comments, and the replies to your nonsense. I think Vicki’s absolutely nails it. I suspect there is a number of us who wish you and Patrick would take your silly little game off to a room somewhere.

          The bottom line is I have come to realise you have little understanding of your own inner feeling state, despite your continual breastbeating about the whole universe of feelings and how you are a proponent of living the feeling life. To put it shortly, you are full of shit. A truly feeling person understands what’s going on inside them. Maybe not straight away, but if you’re straight enough you should be able to take on board the kind of criticisms you are getting from all quarters here. That seems to be beyond you.

          You just seem to be overwhelmed by feelings, and to have constructed a massive defence system based around the intellectual CONCEPT of feelings, rather than actually feeling them. Maybe you are one of Janov’s abreactors, all histrionic light show with no depth and no resolution.

          I know I’m being a little over the top here, but your arrogant inability to apologise for your behaviour is really getting to me.


          • Erron says:

            And I might add that I remember a couple of years ago when you were posting on Art Janov’s blog, he remarked that you sounded like you needed to come in for more therapy. He saw through you straight away.

            You need to stop pretending to be some kind of expert on feelings, Jack. You’ve built a fantasy out of having lived the feeling life, but you’re still a mess. In that respect, I’m beginning to see so many resemblances between you and your nemesis Patrick.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Erron” I read both your comments with interest. I have no response to or for either. I just wanted you to know I read them. That is all.


  51. Patrick says:


  52. Larry says:

    Shane, like it did to a lot of others, your heart rending ‘Letter to Barry’ affected me, in a way I’m just beginning to understand.

    I’m feeling awful that I haven’t felt connected to my siblings. They support me and encourage me. I nearly always feel a boost from spending time with them. They banish my loneliness for a while. But though I’m the oldest, I’ve always been the shy, quiet, anxious brother in need of their emotional support and attention to keep me from spiraling into feeling entirely lost and alienated, but feeling incapable of giving much emotional support back. What especially bothers me is that while growing up I had no sense of empathy for them, no feeling of affection and caring. It was more like as kids we just existed, got along, played together and kept each other company, until we grew up and they moved into their teenage and adult lives while I seemed stunted desperately needing Mommy and Daddy and unable to emotionally move out of childhood. It feels like as a kid I was a black hole of need unable to relate to anyone other than try to address my own hurt.

    I’m feeling now the agony that the childhood opportunity to grow up with them in shared empathy and love is long gone, a one only chance lost forever. I dip into the awful feeling that I was an outsider who didn’t belong in my family, who I felt no emotional connection with. It is an awful lonely lonely childhood feeling, as if I was from another planet and all alone on this one.

    The good thing is, I’m able to feel more connected to them now as I heal from my past, and am appreciating more and more that I mean something to them as a brother who they are proud of and an inspiration. I’m starting finally to feel a love for them.

    Thanks for sharing.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: A very moving comment, and I understand well your feelings, as I have a buddy that is and has been in very similar state as you. i sat for him for many hours and it is the very worst.


    • Shane says:

      Larry, so good to hear you are starting to feel closer. I avoided my family most of my life and now that I am feeling the cost of that I have started to make contact and it has been good. My uncle was only a few years older than me and more like a big brother. He later was president of his local chapter of the Hell’s Angels. I had distanced myself from him before that. Now I recognize it doesn’t matter who he is, he is “one of my people.” “My people” may have ignored me but I abandoned them. I got in touch with my uncle recently after 40 years and we told each other how much we love each other. That feels so much better than avoiding him out of fear and loathing.

  53. Margaret says:

    I wish you would not engage with Patrick, as we all want to hear as little as possible of him as he seems unable to post anything but more crap.
    so please please, ignore him?

  54. Margaret says:

    my mail got blocked for a little while by a server, so only this one is from today Friday, the rest is older.
    now it seems almost everyone has expressed to you in various ways they feel you should stop engaging with Patrick.
    isn’t that reason enough for you, in a group it is usually very telling something is indeed going on when so many people pick up on something.

    to me it kind of feels like you are harassing a mean but ‘caged’ dog, which is to say the least not a nice thing to do.
    to say you indeed take pleasure in it and to say you like blogging is no proper answer, it does not feel at all you take a proper look at your deeper motives.
    now for me you do not need to do so, but I wish you would respect what we all ask from you, specially as Patrick told you in a direct way it provokes pain in him.
    for this one time he expresses his feeling to you that directly you chose to ignore it.

    Erron is right, you should know better than behaving like that, even if it frustrates some craving you feel, it might be an opportunity to look into that.

  55. Margaret says:

    you say it is not your intent to upset Patrick. that seems hard to combine with your usual expression of loving to ‘poke’ him..
    poking is upsetting , irritating and hurtful when done systematically.
    you are not being honest to yourself and no lecture of your intellectual reasons will convince any of us.
    you seem to enjoy some kind of power trip and it clearly is starting to upset most of us, apart from continuously engaging Patrick in an eternal destructive struggle.

    at least be straithtforward about it, you get some kick out of the poking and upsetting.
    and that, as it is a kick out of inflicting some kind of pain, can be called perverse.

    you hold a grudge, or whatever, you might have old reasons and feelings which drive you, but at least be straight about it, we are not stupid you know.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret:- Poking Patrick was something I did in the past. I don’t call it poking anymore.
      I do not agree with most of what you stated here … but then that’s just me.

      For those that care to read it, I have made a comment on my reflections of myself, that I will post after replying to you. I did so in the hope I might express my sentiments. I hope it does not appear to be defensive on my part. I will leave it for others to say so, should they feel I am.


  56. Jack Waddington says:

    Margaret: I am very aware that my responses to Patrick are upsetting some of you, but I do wonder at what is taking place within you all, that are making suggestions to me. I have said to you before, not all feelings are pleasant and that desiring that this blog (or any other blog for that matter) should be all sweet and pleasant flies in the face of what (I feel) is the very essence of Primal Therapy, Primal Theory, and blogging in general.
    I will make as clear as I can. I do not take pleasure at hurting anyone and that includes Patrick. I take PLEASURE at responding to him … and many others on this blog. If for you, my liking ‘blogging” is not an answer then what is the answer? It is one of few pleasure I look forward to each day. Ignoring Patrick when he attempts to insult me is something I feel I have done from the moment he came onto this blog. Further, if you see from your studies I have some deeper “inner craving” … feel free to tell me what you feel that inner craving might be.


    • Shane says:

      Jack I only met you on one retreat and I like you. I think you are a provocateur. That can be amusing. I don’t think you have any valid excuse for ignoring the well considered wishes on this list that you not engage Patrick in this setting. And my impression is that your Primal arguments are a manipulative strategy, along with others, to continue to provoke reactions and demand attention. Not trying to be a hard ass. Do what you want. But for whatever it is worth, that is my impression.

  57. Vicki B. says:

    Jack, I believe Erron is right about you being “locked in a death-grip struggle” with Patrick. That’s one of the things going on, whatever else there is for you. In one respect, you both hijack this Blog for your interminable battles — several years’ worth! If you were not here at all, he would have much less so-called “reason” to want to be here. You perpetually bait him and get off on his responses. He likewise enjoys coming back at you angrily. You two ought to “get a room”. Better yet, you two should be locked in a room together away from this Blog, so the rest of us won’t have to see or know about whatever carnage you want to inflict on each other. But I think you want an audience for that, too.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: If I were in a “death struggle” I could agree with what is being said here. “DEATH struggle” is a very emotive phrase. I don’t feel for me, it is a struggle or, anything nearing ‘death’ I enjoy responding to almost all that respond to me.
      I feel strongly that what I or anyone else states on this blog will not affect Patrick one iota. He has his reason; and even though he’s been blocked, has found another way to come back on the blog. (not difficult). Seemingly, the only thing that seems to ‘gets to’ Patrick are my responses … even those, to others. Patrick is still and IMO will continue on this blog, even if I were to die or go away completly.
      It does appear to me that most of you think Patrick would eventually go away if I were to stop commenting on this blog. That is not my understanding of Patrick. For me, he has an agenda and he’ll keep that going as long as this blog exist for him to comment upon.


      • Phil says:

        I think there’s always someone responding to Patrick although it’s between you two that the biggest struggle takes place.. I would think it would get quite boring and unrewarding for him if no one responded.
        To say it would make no difference; that just seems to be an excuse for you to continue poking, whether you call it that or not.
        What he does here isn’t to me any coherent agenda. Just a bunch of rants and acting out disconnected feelings.

  58. Margaret says:

    wow Jack, you do resemble Patrick in twisting the truth to the point of believing your own version.
    just a small number of comments ago you still mentioned you like poking Patrick, and anyway, it does not matter how you call it, if the act is still the same.
    discussing endlessly about it has no use, as you clearly refuse to let in what we are unanimously saying to you, that there is an act out going on on your part as well, and we do not like it and we do not like its effects.

    why don’t you just look at what you get from it, and why you don’t want to stop it?
    but hey, you and Patrick are two of a kind seemingly so I rest my case.
    but we all definitely would love to see you guys go fight in a closed, soundproof room and not here, what do you say Jack, to Patrick who told you clearly you inflict pain on him?
    that that does not matter as long as you get your pleasure?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I am beginning to feel that your sense of Primal Therapy is not what mine is. I said ‘many moons ago’ WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT THSI BLOG IS ALL HUNKY DOREY AND SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY CONFLICTING NOTIONS OR IDEAS???????

      This not how I see this therapy, this blog, or the healing process. that is all. I sense you are “STRUGGLING” with me. Be that as it maybe.


  59. Hey Jack, What I have wondered is whether you are impacted by the Homophobic comments? Do the comments about Homosexuality or AIDS ever hurt you or are you able to ” write them off”? I know you are comfortable with who you are and I am thinking you will say it is fine. On the other hand I assume you must have grown up in a Homophobic world and likely suffered as a result. Did these issues come up in your previous relationship with Patrick or is this the first you have known of these views? Gretch

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: You ask some very legitimate questions here; BUT in order to reply FULLY. would take up more than I feel is expedient. So I will endeavor to be brief. Or as brief as possible.
      “I have wondered is whether you are impacted by the Homophobic comments” My immediate response and one I have considered many time in both the past during therapy and way past that going back into my youth is:- “No!!!!” uneqivically. I was indulging in gay practices way back into my childhood as early as 7, 8, or perhaps 9. I was never ashamed nor proud of my behaviour. I just accepted it as was … and found many other guys that seemingly enjoyed induging in the primtive sex I indulged in that time.
      It was not until puberty that I knew the word “Homosexuality” and never questioned that is was “WRONG”. That is the way it was and I was able to accept it, enjoy it and never looked back. I did get arrested in my early twenties and that caused me to read a great deal about this condition

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I never felt homosexuality was natural and normal. But I knew from some of the reading I did on the subject, that it was something I could little or nothing about. In my early teen I did tell my siblings (all younger) that was the way I was, BUT I did not tell my parent and they did not know until I was first arrested at the age of 21

        I am very aware that many gay guys go through a very difficult period in their lives trying to augment their sexual feelings. That was never the case with me. So!! to sum it all up When I was working with Patrick he was fully aware of my sexual orientation, and it seemingly never bothered him at the time. It is IMO; only after coming onto the blog that he attempted to shame and insult me by revealing many of the thing he knew about me. So!!! to repeat, I feel his homophobic remarks about me say more about himself than anything about me. As best I know how … it does not bother me.


  60. Patric says:

    And Gretchen I consider your ‘banning’ of me totally illegitimate. You have done it because of your own sensitiveness and ignorance. You will not educate yourself you will spin your ignorance as knowledge and it is not. You have done no serious reading or thinking yet you feel free to spout of all your weak politically correct nonsense.

    “In the old days an ‘anti-semite’ was someone who hated Jews: nowadays an ‘anti-semite’ is someone the Jews hate”

    Defintion of ‘hate speech’: Speech/truths that Jews hate to hear

    Meditate on that Gretchen and I would strongly suggest you either shut up or educate yourself about history and politics etc. Can you be that clueless or are you just pretending to me. Perhaps you can enlighten me………………though I don’t want a diatribe or your usual word salad gibberish

  61. Jack Waddington says:

    My Reflection upon myself:- I feel the need to be bold here for the moment. In the feeling zone/world, as I see it, there is the need to express ones feelings, simply and directly as best as one knows how. I do however see three major traps The first is struggling, the second is defending, and the third is acting-out those feelings.
    I do feel that some of the suggestion made to me here over the last couple of days with only two exception, few are looking into what what drives their need to ask me to desist from responding to Patrick. If we are each of us only looking for consolations, or some relative pleasures, then this or any other blog IMO is not the place to seek that.
    Most of us had a our natural feeling and expressing them thwarted in early childhood, as we all know. Getting back to finally expressing those deep early and devastating feelings is a time consuming task. Our histories do not go away … hopefully they become less devastating.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      I do see Patrick’s “Primal Scene”, from an earlier comment he made on the blog was when his mother beat and berated him for his behavior at his first confirmation at his church, or whatever that event was. All else as I see and know Patrick, stems from right there.

      My being able to see others through there own feelings; give me a great insight as to where they are coming from. I find that a great advantage for me.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        The major event going for me currently is my deteriorating health due mainly to getting older. However, at the age of nearing 85 I do feel I am doing better than most who are at about the same age. I feel lucky that I had a reasonably feeling-full mother (though not perfect). What I did not have was a loving and feeling-full father (though he meant well, but that was not good enough for the little me.
        I will enumerate those deteriorating factors:-
        1) My memory is not quite what it used to be especially with respect to remember names of people and places;
        2) Eyesight:- I still am able to wear my contact lenses though for reading I need a pair of reading glasses and when the print is very small to suppliment that with a spy glass.
        3) Losing my teeth and needing dentures I feel is a problem and my current ones have become ill fitting. I am about to get new ones, in-spite of the great expense.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          4) Some several years ago I did begin to feel some chest pains and went to see a cardiologist that I continue to see every 6 month. However, I get very few chest pain currently.
          5) The water works (urination) is a bit of a bother, as I need to get up at least once during the night to pee. AND many times during the day.
          6) I do have Claudication in the calf muscles of my legs after about one quarter of a mile of walking. Patrick characterizes it as “blocked Arteries” … maybe all due to 22 years of smoking I used to love walking and that has now left me. Sad!

          • Jack Waddington says:

            7) The skin is not as viberent as it was and wrinkling. My lowere legs and the back of my hands the skin is hardening and on my feet the skin is pealing off. I have the compusion to pull it off, but should referain from that as it can cause beeding and becoming sore. I do itch a lot on my back that was perhaps the cause of the huge abcess last year. That has now cleared up, but the itch remains and My jimbo did find a cream that soothes the itching. Not 100% but for the most part makes it bearable without my want to to scratch it.
            8) I still see an internist (my primary physician) for HIV but I do not suffer any effect even after 17 years with it. I take a once a day medication but wish I could give it up.
            Other than these things all’s well. (contiuing)

            • Jack Waddington says:

              My life consists of: Blogging, sitting in the sun, taking short walks, occationally shopping with Jim, being surrounded by all the flowers Jim cultivtes around the trailer, occational naps, eating and sleeping; and emailing friends Jim and I do have fun together and we laugh a lot … mainly sat silly things.
              To qute Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbs “Life’s short; go naked” In the symbolic sense for me, of being naked, open. and as honest as I know how.
              Sorry that need to break my long comments into discrete small portions. Not sure why.


              • Jack Waddington says:

                One other factor that I meant to mention but forgot: was that my sexuality evaported some several years ago. Meantime I have not been able to get and erection and needless to say I have not had any sex during that period either.

                I am not sorry about any of this as I feel I got more than my fair share of sex during my lifetime al-be-it that a percentage of it, was my sexual compusive addiction.

                This may explain some of my not feeling bothered by Patrick’s comment regarding what appears to be his ‘homophobia’. I do not see Patrick as being homophobic; rather I see it as mearly a means to shame and insult me. It doesn’t do either to me.


  62. Sylvia says:

    This is out of the realm of what we were discussing, but I just wanted to thank Larry for the Joy of Vox choir that was posted. It was very uplifting. I also liked the ‘Crazy’ rendition of Patsy Cline’s famed song. The conductor really gets into it and you can tell they all are having a great time. It’s nice to hear the mature voices and more youthful together. The soloist sang for the first half with the rest of choir swaying in harmony and then joining in. I think, Larry, you will have a good time at your concert.

  63. Chris P says:

    Hello All,

    Tom Verzar noticed that Shane signed off in his letter to Barry by writing “Love Shane”. That caught my attention too. And I have been really feeling a lot about this lately. I had a number of insights that I wanted to share with you all.

    First of all I was in a session with Gretchen a few days ago and we went over the one hour time limit for the session, and I started to feel very uncomfortable. I realized I was feeling like I was on “her time”. When I pay for a session I feel like I am paying for her time, and I feel like I deserve to be listened to and helped, etc. But once we went over the one hour, I started feeling bad. I realized I was feeling like I did not deserve to be loved. I felt/feel so unlovable. It was such a painful feeling to feel. And then I could literally feel my chest tighten and Gretchen would not let me get off the phone. She must have known it was putting me in to a feeling and I felt exposed.

    I wanted to ask her if she loved me. I recalled how many years ago, I was able to bring myself in a group to ask her if she liked me, to which she replied yes. But to ask her if she loved me was very frightening and somewhat impossible–at least at that time. And I rationalized away my desire to tell her, by saying to myself that I did not want to put her in a position or to make her feel uncomfortable. But it was really me who would have felt very uncomfortable. Another way I rationalized it away was by answering the question myself. I said that it does not matter if she said she loved me; what matters are the actions and whether she shows love. So I think I will need to revisit this with her at some point.

    The second thing that occurred to me is that I always pick women who are unable to love me. And then I get in to an eternal struggle with them to be loving and I work at rehabilitating them so that they will give me the love that I need. And it never works. NEVER. And with my latest girlfriend, it was ironic because she was very good at SAYING she loved me, but empty when it came to any real expressions/actions of love. So I realize that I really do want both. It is nice to hear it, and probably even nicer to get it. I say probably, because to be honest I have never felt loved in a “love relationship”.

    By the way, Barry called me the “Einstein when it comes to picking a girlfriend to struggle with.”

    The third and final insight I had was that I have not called my buddy Jack for several weeks. I told myself that I needed a break from feeling and so that’s why I have not called him. And he has called me a few times to check in on me, which I appreciated. But I was able to tie this in to this feeling of being unlovable/unloved as well. When I call Jack, he is totally there for me and I feel more love and care from him than anyone I have every felt in my life. He actually got in an Uber and came over here when I when I put my kitty to sleep at home. He was there crying and holding me and even trying to comfort the kitty.

    What a wonderful human being you are Jack.

    So why have I not been calling Jack? Because he is almost always there for me and just being on the phone with him makes feel how unloved/unlovable I am.

    I am hoping that by putting this out there, I will get some more relief and maybe even more insights. I always appreciate the comments and support that I get on this blog. And I feel somewhat selfish because I rarely if ever give feedback or comment on what others write. But I can tell you all that I read just about every comment and I feel like I am part of your lives: Of course Jack, Margaret, Sylvia, Larry, Phil, Erron, Otto, Vicki, Leslie,

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Chris: Just reading this:- “What a wonderful human being you are Jack.” made me cry.

      Like you; I needed a daddy to say “I love you Jack”. I knew somewhere deep down, he cared about me, and all of us …. what he was unable to say was simply “I love you Jack” and then hug and kiss me. I did eventually know why. What is interesting is that I have the very same from my Jimbo. I know he loves and caresa for me, BUT he’s totally unable to say those very words. Yes I do get the hugs and kisses and that is wonderful. I tried to discuss this very thing with him; BUT it makes not a scrap of difference. He feels that showing and demonstating it is, and should be sufficient.

      What is amazing is fiasnlly discovering just how much not hearing the words, hurts. Not currently but in my very early years.

      I’m there Chris when you call and we connect. Take your time. and yes; I get a great deal from sitting for you. It’s not all a ‘one way ticket’.


    • Shane says:

      It’s so painful to feel unworthy or an imposition.

  64. Leslie says:

    So glad you have written Chris – and written so well! Lots of good stuff to ponder and feel.
    I have thought of you often as it is so new that your kitty is gone – and yet at times it can feel long day by day too. Amazing how much space they hold in our hearts isn’t it.
    Hope you have a long weekend to enjoy!

  65. Margaret says:

    do you see the irony of focusing on our presumed old feelings about what we tell you, while you seem unable to look at yours that drive you to keep struggling with Patrick in what seems pretty compulsive a way.

    you say we want the blog all nicy nicy but that does not fit us calling you out on your continuous engaging with Patrick.

    does it not make you wonder we all pick up on something there?
    only you can find out what drives you.

    and it is not about answering or not answering Patricks comments, it goes further than that and I feel confident you do know, or can know if you take the time to look into it and go to the underlying feelings.

    then things might not change that much but the palpable extra pressure we all pick up on might diminish and make it all more easy for everyone.

    we all have our feelings triggered, so this is not such a big deal, it just seems frustrating you skip the surface, even while giving us a detailed account of your physical state you never mention what feeling goes on for you M

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: First off …Quote:- “we all pick up on [what] might diminish and make it all more easy for everyone.”
      Before I go on to answer you more fully I feel the need to make a general comment then I will respond to each of the points you made to me. I feel most of the comments being made towards me these last few days; have more to do with each of US wanting to change the other guy, for our very own comforts. Isn’t that exactly what our parents did to us when we were so little and vulnerable??? Wanting us babies, young children to change, in order to make it more comfortable for them (our parents)? The operative word in the quote was “easy”.

      As far as I am able to assess myself, I do NOT feel I am am in a “struggle with Patrick. I enjoy responding to all and everyone that I respond to on this blog. I do however acknowledge that you all see and feel I am in a “Death Strugle” with him. I have not the slightest intention to change Patrick … or anyone else for that matter. I don’t even want or desire that he leaves this blog. I feel strongly that we each need to take ‘what is’ accept it, live with it and get the best we know how outta it. That simple as I see it.

      I made a very concerted attempt to ask NOTHING from all that responded to me, while I felt that you all, with the exception of Gretchen, were asking me to do something … for the want of a better phrase … to make it more ‘comfortable’ for you’s all. I did not talk about my own old feelings, since for the moment none are/were triggered. Actually, as of right now I am in very good space. Life my Jimbo couldn’t be better … well almost! The only old feeling for me right now thinking about it is:- I didn’t have the daddy that I desperperately needed because he was for ever citisizing me what ever I did. I was never good enough for him. It was not until a great amount of therapy that I realized just how much that hurt. At the time, I thought all daddies were like that.

      Calling me out on my responses to Patrick is I feel, I see Patrick differently than (I feel) most of you do, as I read you. I have said and repeated that I know Patrick far better than any of you since I have been involved with him for over 30 years. I feel (perhaps wrongly) that gives me some credibility. I am very aware that you are all picking up on something going on with me. What exactly that is, I am not sure about, AND I do/did not get a sense that any of you were getting to the root of what you were picking upon.

      Renee: I read your comment and thought carefully before I made this response. I’ll be blunt. I do not feel any of the comments made towards me were in anyway excellent. I felt everyone was asking me to do something in order to make the blog more comfortable for themselves. Read how I answered the same question to Margaret.


  66. Phil says:

    I have been going through some minor irritations with my wife lately. I have to be careful as sometimes those trigger larger feelings between us.
    She’s been on vacation this past week and working on projects at home. She’s had painters and carpenters changing the doors and wood molding and painting to get a better look. Too many rooms have been effected at once. For me, one door may look better than another but I couldn’t spend money on it. We should do our own painting but she is so perfectionist that nothing I do could be good enough. Also, my opinions are hardly taken into consideration with all of this.
    Another thing is that I enjoy working outside in the yard, but she’s had to hire someone to cut the grass. I hate that. I want to do it myself and always have. Next week I’ll plant a few more trees and bushes, at least I have control over that. We also had something happen which I’ll call “the cheesecake incident”. We went down to the city to see a show and were planning to have dinner after the show. I was very hungry but she had to stop to wait in a long line to get Juniors cheesecake, touted as the best in New York, at their outlet. This really irritated me and I said so.
    These cheesecakes can be found in the supermarkets and are the very same product. I’m doubtful on any differences in freshness. The line moved quicker than expected, she got her cheesecake and I got over it, but she gets over things much more slowly. She can’t seem to take any anger and/ or irritation coming from me. The following day I was actually feeling better having had released a little anger and irritation, but now am paying for it in terms of her reactions.
    We have discussed about the work going and at home and I’ve complained but haven’t revisited the cheesecake incident.
    I’ve also finalized the decision to again go to the retreat this year. Right now it’s feeling good that I get away from my wife and do my own thing once in a while. She does that too. We are together a very long time, 28 years now and I love her, but things are not always smooth sailing.
    I look forward to seeing many of again you in sunny Santa Barbara in a few months.

  67. Patrick says:

    Gretchen deleting (some) of my comments (why some?) can I be ‘deleted’ or ‘saved’ (computer speak) just like that some random ‘judge’ just ‘decides’ on her whim. Anyway what can I co about it – absolutely nothing. I put 2 comments on yesterday why was one deleted and one not. I have no idea but it does remind me of the amazon book ban. Why is one banned and not another? Does one transgress in some way and the other not? Or is it just a matter of time until MORE and MORE are banned. Now about the ‘holocaust’ later anything on WW2 that does not suit them, later who knows maybe putting a picture of Trump surrounded by all his Zionist handlers? Arbitrary and cruel, they are the boss they ‘decide’ who lives and who dies, who is acceptable and who is not they rule!

    A few days ago Gretchen left something I wrote on there for almost 2 days and I felt better (about her) it mellows me out I am inclined to be les ‘mad’ but then she does it again and it maddens me all over again. There is something about being ‘shut up’ I feel like someone is just putting a tape over my mouth. Not a good feeling esp not for me. In many way my voice is all I have or had, I was abandoned I am sure as an infant all I had was my screams and cries. Later my ‘objections’ and ability to speak/scream out. Don’t forget I feel totally under the spell of the primal scream also it must and did mean all the world to me. So now my screams are silenced or let through on arbitrary basis. In any case they are not welcomed or acceptable. Does not leave me with much. And it surprises me honestly I bought into and believed in primal I could say what I want it purported to be DIFFERENT than all I had ever known. Maybe I ask or expect too much I am I suppose too ‘demanding’ well ok I suppose I am but I always feel what I have to say is ‘worth’ something I don’t do it casually or just for the hell of it. If I complain about Zionist power it is not to be provocative not really more it really bothers me and you know it comes up even in the ‘news’ I see lots of examples now. Just as I did in childhood and even infancy there was a lot to ‘complain’ about

    I expected Gretchen to be ‘bigger’ than she turned out to be she must see I thought I am a sincere seeker after truth, it the truth hurts that no reason to shut it down. She could learn a lot from me on many levels but she doesn’t care has her own world already set up. I guess I don’t trust ANY world that is set up let alone a neat one the elides many facts and truths. That’s me I don’t fit in easily ANYwhere that’s me. A lot to complain about a strong sense of ‘injustice’ in the world. I am rambling now better stop I could go on but what’s the point it will get me nowhere.

    I appreciate very much some of the people Margaret especially that try to pull Jack back from his constant critiques of me. Like even now this morning I feel I can write a bit freer because maybe he will not ‘quote me back’ and find it all wrong and crazy. What a crazy thing to do but he does it ALL the time. Anyway I thought one or two things he said yesterday were truthful about himself I mean I only wish he would get off my back. He hearkens back over and over and over about how and when and why I ‘came on the blog’. Big fucking deal it was over 5 years ago but still he wants to ‘replay’ it over and over and always putting himself in a very good light. That’s not ‘real life that’s demented ‘primal life’ where things way in the past are just repeated and replayed over and over and over. He does that in general of course and it seems harmless but not really if you are the butt of it. Anyway I do appreciate what a lot of people said and it is not to ‘support’ me just it gives me some hope that people here are not all ‘primal zombies’ they actually notice things here and there and even step out of ‘supporting’ one guy who lives under the ‘true believer’ shelter and scam. .

    Gretchen you need to let up I am just being honest here the idea you ‘censor’ some things or not others or you do it at all i so reminiscent of your ‘tribes’ behavior but you don’t seem to see it. Soviet Russia was the first big “Jewish’ experiment in running a country that did not turn out so well we had ‘thought crimes’ and ‘surveillance’ up the ying yang. Apparently it was in Soviet Russia that ‘anti semitism’ was made a crime and see where that led. We it seems to me are going down the same road now here and again a Zionist controlled country expect more and more ‘thought crimes’ ‘book banning’ ‘hate speech’ etc etc Not a good future total slavery and that seems to be the “Jewish” way stamp out what they do not agree with. See the way I see it they were kicked out of over a 100 countries (including ancient Egypt?) because of their ‘behavior’ They have shown they cannot run a country they can ruin it but not run it. Over and over in history that was discovered and people did something about it but now they rule and one can’t say anything or criticize them or even point to what is happening. Anyway I suppose I go too far again now and possibly Gretchen will delete this too because of this. I feel like saying ‘dont you fucking dare’ but all I have are angry words they have all the money and power

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Patrick: there is IMO a great deal in this particular comment that I feel warrants a response from me, albeit, that I am capable of coming in for some slack by doing so. I can live with all those comments made to and about me. They are truely no problem for me. Neither are your responses to me. I do have my reasoning for them not bothering me, which for now I do not feel the need to go into. However, I also see why most people resent me including yourself. I come across as a “Smart ass” (arse); and few if any like a smart ass.

      Ok, the normal response to that is:- STOP BEING A FUCKING SMART ASS AND KNOW-IT-ALL. Easier said than done.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I repeat: I do not see you as Homophobic and from my years of knowing you, you never gave me any reason to feel you were. We actually, but for a few small incidents, worked well together. I also feel that Renee was the very first person to get through to you. I personally would like you and her, continue a dialog. One caution. I suggest if it is possible for you to refrain from all references to Jews, Judaism, the holocaust, and Israel. I am aware that you feel you see much of the ‘Truths and Falsities’ going on in the world. However I feel, as other have pointed out to me, all that is surface stuff and there are underlying reasoning’s going on that I feel most would rather you spent time on. I grant; “easier said said than done” Most of this will depend upon what it is you hope to achieve in life, with your friends, and on this blog.

        That’s all for now. Jack

  68. Patrick says:

    To maybe get deleted again and compound my sense of injustice here is an amazing story of what “Nurenberg justice” and actually the whole ‘holocaust story’ is based on…………….which is TORTURE. And I cannot ignore the ‘testicle crushing’ done here with the trauma based mind control of circumcision. It seems there is some connection but it only me saying that the article stands on its own and should gives us serious pause about the ‘stories’ we are compelled to believe.


  69. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I can so relate to your feelings of rage, resentment, hurt, betrayal and suffering. I can also relate to the way these feeling are coming out…….in a way that pushes people away and guarantees that you will not get what you are needing (probably for the umpteenth time in your life). It is painful for me to read your words. You are so desperately needing something from Gretchen, yet by insulting her and saying that you expected her “to be ‘bigger’ than she turned out to be” and that, “She could learn a lot from me on many levels but she doesn’t care, (she) has her own world already set up”, you are making it highly unlikely that she will be responsive to you in the way you are wanting. As I think I said to you once before, it might be helpful for you to say more simply what you are needing from her, rather than what you are not needing (to be censored). Let me know if any of this makes sense to you.

    • Patrick says:

      Well Renee it does make sense……………but what sort of gets me is if I HAVE to do things in a certain way. Like there is an ‘approved’ way I imagined primal would get beyond all that. Why ‘label’ anything or ‘decide’ one way is acceptable another not. But I take your point in a way in the ‘real’ world things don’t just work they way I might want them to. But that does not stop me from wanting it. I for myself CAN express it and say it even if it does not ‘work’ in the real world. That to me is still important. I really wish people would read the link about about torture and get some ‘facts’ and get away a bit from all these ‘opinions’ try to get some reality about some of these issues. Anyone can just sail along listening to lies and then enforcing them we should be able to do better

      • Shane says:

        There is a Primal dilemma that always comes up. “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? But that is not how Primal Therapy works. It is a subtle process and we individually can handle only so much Pain at a time. We also need a “safe space” in which to feel. The Primal Institute must exercise sensitivity and judgement when encouraging or censoring behavior. They are in charge of the therapy they offer and the setting in which it takes place. Therapy is not a democracy. If you don’t agree with or like their approach or are frustrated by it, that is understandable. But you can’t have what you want. You only get what they give you.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: I believe and feel you are the very first person to make a breakthrough to Patrick on this blog … for as long as I have been reading it.

      For right now I will leave it at that. I hope both you and he will continue a dialog.


  70. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, you’re moving too fast for me. My brain works slowly. You say that what I wrote makes sense to you. Yet, I’m not understanding what exactly of what I said makes sense to you. Please explain. Sorry to make you slow down.

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – what I took from you is how just ‘blowing up’ or whatever it is I do does not actually get me what I want in the ‘real’ world. And that is true (mostly) but in a funny way over time I even use that as some kind of test. Like people that really turn out to be friends do deal with it they ‘understand’ on some level and do not hold resentments that go on years and years or just cut me off all together. Those people at least to my mind and in effect turn out not to be friens

  71. Otto Codingian says:

    i will continue to write down my evil depressing thoughts for the benefit of no one…OH BOY, SATURDAY AND DON’T HAVE TO GO TO WORK! 9am Saturday, took a walk in the park around the lake with the dog. multitudes of women on some k walk and i don’t even want to look at their naked arms and legs and faces. they are beyond unattainable and i don’t care anymore. they are just my mom, gone. i will post these a short blurbs, since my numb fingers can go haywire and delete what i just wrote.

  72. Otto Codingian says:

    at the end of the walk, getting almost to the car, i think of a bio i could put on some dating website, looking for someone as bluntly speaking as myself, i am fat, ugly, old ugly face, depressed every second, dont really want a relationship, dont want to do a fucking thing. at the park i wouild rather look at dogs’ faces than their owners. i cant stand the voices of women that i hear, most sound masculine to me for some reason. i think, do i remember what my mom’s voice sounded like? no, but i can hear her sister’s voice (my aunt), who took care of me at various times in my life after my mom died, and/or i would hear her voice at the family get-togethers such as Easter, Christmas etc.
    i can hear my other aunt’s voice at those same parties; also the voices of all my cousins, uncles, grand-aunts, grand-uncles, grandma, brother. but not my mother.

  73. Renee S. says:

    Jack, I have felt frustrated and disappointed that of all the excellent feedback you have received, none of it has seemed to help you with any breakthroughs.

  74. Otto Codingian says:

    what was the nasty thought i had in the bathroom just before i started writing this drivel today? cant remember. anyway, reading the colorful newspaper ads in the bathroom while doing some business. HAPPY EASTER! HERE IS A DEAL TO PUT IN YOUR EASTER BASKET! (picture of a bag of potato chips, bottles of booze, box of Peet’s coffee, big case of coke, pepsi). just what every child should have in their mother of all (easter) baskets! hunh? who pays these guys to write this stuff? who are these words attractive to, that they will rush to the store to buy buy buy? and why is this my fucking empty life, reading newspaper ads in the bathroom? like the comic books i read as a chlld, in an empty house. never seems to end, this boring lonely existence.

  75. Otto Codingian says:

    anyway, i heard some music coming out of someone’s car at the park, “Tonight you belong to me”, not Bernadette Peters/Steve Martin, but some women group, soft beautiful voices. now i try to find on youtube. the music had stopped when i drove around the parking lot to find that oasis.

  76. Otto Codingian says:

    well that version is so good too. ms. peters was so cute there with her curly hair. my mom might have had curly hair. i sure do/did have curls. such a soft beautiful voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyinJyWUhas

  77. Otto Codingian says:

    guess it was the lennon sisters. some guy at the park always playing 40’s stuff while he fishes or races his model boat there.

  78. Otto Codingian says:

    soon i will have to stop listening to life, and start the regimen of paying bills. more bills than money. at least i found out i can probably collect social security while remaining at work, so i could possibly stop working overtime later this year. if our dear senators leave ss alone.

  79. Otto Codingian says:

    this one pisses me off so f’ing much. this should have been me in adolescence; comfortable around girls; AROUND GIRLS, having fun with girls. i was robbed of this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL-aZXZSG7E#t=114.085028

  80. Otto Codingian says:

    email to my wife: Thanks for trying to give me advice on my boredom. It made me realize it is probably an old feeling of laying in a bassinette all day at Uncle Al’s house after being ripped away from my mom. Paralyzed with the inability to do anything except lay there, waiting to be fed or changed, as a baby, and that was probably the highlights of the day back then. Loneliness from the present propels the same inaction now. I could do plenty of things if I wanted, in the present. But I am stuck. Dog is too lonely to leave alone for very long anyways, on the weekend days.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Just saying “But I am stuck.” suggests to me, that you are NOT “stuck” the ones that are stuck rarely if ever know it. Just keep blogging here like you do. It’s a process and I know you already know.

      I wish you well Otto.


  81. Renee S. says:

    Well Patrick, I think you’re right. And it sucks! It too bad that we can’t just be happy with the friends that understand and “get” us. We need to go after the ones that don’t understand and then try and get them to change. I can relate so well to this. Yet, I think our chances of being understood increase when we express ourselves more simply and directly. That’s why I was asking you what you are needing from Gretchen (and others) when you ‘blow up’. Because what you are getting back does not seem to be what you’re needing. What do you think?

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – for me this ‘blowing up’ thing goes pretty deep. It’s like there is ‘blasting outwards’ that is so basic to me………………sometimes and I talked about this a few years ago anyway I go to the (cold) creek in Topanga and when I immerse myself in the water it most of the time puts me into this space where I can kind of ‘see’ or ‘feel’ how I am ‘over-heated’ all the time. The cold seems to bring me down where I can realize that and I do this as kind of therapy. But just because I ‘glimpse’ this does not mean I can change it so much or certainly not all at once but for me it is all kind of mixed up with finding ‘truth’. And it seems to help me to be ‘brave’ enough to go for ‘truth’. I stop there as I lose my thread but this ‘blowing up’ thing has caused me plenty problems even I suppose with Jack. I figured him to be very ‘primal’ and therefore he could and would deal with it but……………….people are different and just because one has the ‘theory’ down does not mean much in practice if you get my drift

  82. Renee S. says:

    Jack, STOP BEING A FUCKING SMART ASS AND KNOW-IT-ALL!!! Please take your own advice! Only a fucking smart ass and know-it-all would tell Patrick what he should and shouldn’t talk about on this blog……it will only continue this stupid struggle between the two of you. I can’t believe you misinterpreted peoples’ feedback to you and that it held no value for you. Grrrr…….

    • Erron says:

      René, I have come to realise that Jack is no better than Patrick in his personal blindness, and that his behaviour actually mirrors Patrick’s. Here is a little more polished in his outward persona, or at least he tries to be, but really just comes across as a pompous dick. With both of them, I’m sure there’s a salvageable human being somewhere under all the bullshit , but it appears there is nothing any of us can do with the salvage. It’s up to them, and sadly I don’t think they are capable of it.

    • Larry says:

      Jack, I feel you yourself could act more on your advice that you so readily dish out to Patrick. I do see plenty of similarity between the two of you.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: at the risk coming across as being defensive I will only add:- I was not giving advice I was making a suggestion. I personally feel offering advice is futile; however, all this is dependent what constitutes ‘advice’ and/or ‘suggestion’.

        Jack .

    • Patrick says:

      Renee I appreciate very much your ‘support’ of me being able to talk about whatever it is I want to talk about. One of the most unfortunate aspect of PT imo at least is this kind of ‘judging’ about the topics discussed and the WAY in which to discuss them. Then there is some kind of ‘grid’ we are all meant to follow along with and given my nature at least that in itself is a reason NOT to ‘follow along’. And PT becomes it seems to me almost a total ‘head trip’ at that point people talking and behaving as they think they are MEANT to. So thank you and also my understanding/memory is you are Jewish and again I feel it shows a lot of integrity on your part not to want to shut me up on that subject. I imagine/hope it is something I can leave behind at some point but I follow my interests one thing leads to another I have no idea how long I might be interested in that or any other subject. I did not plan any of this but and this is very much in contrast to my ‘education’ I literally now follow my interests and just let them lead where they may.PT to me often is so ‘narrow’ it truly becomes a ‘limited hangout’ and the amount of repetition and redundancy is to me at least amazing. Also I feel we discover our feeling THROUGH what we are interested in to try to ‘access’ the feelings in some kind ‘raw’ state I don’t think is possible and i don’t think memory or the brain works like that at all. To me Janov was a first draft to make him some kind of be all and end all is silly and also I feel he made mistakes both practical and theoretical.

      Sorry I am going off on a tangent here but one thing I wanted to mention to you. I know you liked the Beatles a lot anyway here is a link to this book that purports to have been written by the ‘later’ Paul Faul or whatever you want to call him. I am aware it seems wacked but if you can read this book. It’s amazing in the way he breaks down the songs what they mean etc. To me at least it is absolutely fascinating and it also open up the question of ‘deception’ like how deep that can go how it can be maintained etc I read in on Kindle where it is quite cheap but you may not have one. Kollerstrom’s book on the same subject is very good also but I think this is better and closer to the action. Now maybe you are not so interested I have no idea but I did think of you after I read it it’s a total page turner

  83. Renee S. says:

    It does seem in some of your posts that you are ‘blasting outwards’, Patrick. That is a perfect analogy actually. And it makes sense that a cold-water Topanga creek is a good remedy. I’m guessing, though, that it might be unrealistic to put out a post when you are starting to over-heat and feel like you might blow up, to see if one us blog readers can come over quick and get you to Topanga! If I could, I would. I love cold-water creeks. And I love Topanga. Anything else you’re needing at these times from any of us?

    • Similarly to Larry’s sentiments, I also would like to see these exchanges continue. I only bring up one point: Are all these “blowing up” and “blasting outwards” references an unconscious residual carryover from reading the recent widespread news about the MOAB bomb in Afghanistan? Sort of a memetic carryover that has temporarily seeped into ordinary public discourse, perhaps?

  84. Larry says:

    A lot of meaningful exchange has been happening here recently that I don’t want to interrupt, but I just have to share this music video that sends chills down my spine. It’s good advice for life I think, from a powerful jazz rendition of an Aerosmith song.

  85. Jack Waddington says:

    I feel it has become expedient for me not to reply to two of the comment to me today. I say expedient for I feel what is happening is that the blog is becoming a place to vent anger; that is misplasced.
    My anger IMO, (if and when it comes up), is a feeling that for myself I need to OWN, (the feeling that is) and refrain from blaming others for it. Sure they are the catalyst, BUT NOT the real deep reason.

    May I re-iterate????? This is only MY feeling, opinion, reasoning.


  86. Patrick says:

    One thing I agree with Jack when he says he thinks I am not ‘homophobic’ but that my gay bashing type of comments were just thrown out just to hurt and shame him. It comes back I suppose to my ‘blowing up’ problem and like I began to say to Renee that has so many aspects and is deep in me. For me it is a matter of survival if someone or something is hurting me first off I feel I have to ‘defend’ myself and that is/can be a mighty effort and struggle in itself but then (in my mind) to ‘prevent’ and make sure it does not happen again or worse over and over again I have to go on the attack and really give the person a black eye.

    And speaking of ‘black eyes’ this was a literal thing for me growing up. We (our family) were bullied un-mercifully in primary school (5 to 12 y.o.) and one day we were playing football in the schoolyard really actually just kicking around something like a plastic bottle and on one was was my older brother one neighbor and me and the way I remember it there was about 10 of them. It seems weird now to have set up a ‘game’ like that but that’s the way I remember it. It wasn’t totally violent but they was pushing and kicking and elbowing and verbal insults too. Anyway the game is going on and on the other sides team is this ‘new guy’ a guy who just came into the parish and he was enthusiastically joining in with all the violence and mayhem against us. And something just snapped in my brain I just started punching and pummeling this guy. Like something took over me and I was a child possessed bang bang bang punching him to the face. He was bigger than me and a year older which made my fight all the more impressive I imagine, I could see my brother was amazed truthfully I was amazed myself. I think I ‘drew blood’ or gave him a ‘black eye’ which was the boxer’s sign of winning anyway I did ‘win’ and it changed things.

    After that they did not like us any better but I found a self respect and got kind of reputation as a ‘boxer’ like I was not a cruel or violent child but they know from then I could defend myself. and I kind of kept that up even when my brother let to go to secondary school I was able to stand my ground and they knew enough to leave me alone. But it was not a happy time I did not like it or glory in my invulnerability to them. I left and went to boarding school all by my own efforts even against what my parents wanted soon after and the most compelling reason was I wanted to get away from all that. I went my own way. Which is another thing a lot I ‘go my won way’ I shun the received wisdom of the majority and feel something deeper and more true to me inside. Like I said I expected primal to be ‘different’ to all that but somehow I have ended up making it the same I am either punching out at some tormentor or going my own way. Either one is tough and not so much fun but it’s all I am left with.

    BTW in boarding school I did ‘succeed’ in making a new life I had new friends and so many things there were great for me. I loved it in many ways and got interested in music and reading all kinds of things’ At the same time it was a bit ‘fragile’ like somehow I know it was not totally ‘real’ it was a constructed reality I had made for myself. It just occurs to me now also because it DID ‘work’ that gave me more confidence and even as to primal I thought it would work in that way too. It sort of did also in that I made new friends like Tim for example who I am still good friends with almost 40 years later but at the ‘institutional’ level not so much. I guess I could say I got on well with quite a lot of the children but the teachers not so much. Which again ‘surprised’ me in boarding school I not only got on well with the other children but also with the teachers I was considered ‘smart’ and I was respected all the way around. And that ‘disappointment’ has been a big issue for me it was something I was inspired by and fired up by like nothing else in my life and well………………I have overall the institutional primal world less than inspiring. But like I said before that is one reason I have liked this blog so much it has given me a chance to verbalize all this and Gretchen has done this for some of her ‘lost sheep’ like me which makes this ‘banning’ thing all the more painful. Anyway it’s Easter Sunday and I feel not totally like a lost sheep but just a wayward one

  87. Patrick says:

    I find myself playing this song/video over and over. I even send it to Guru to say it reminds me of him basking in all his millions and even billions . Truthfully I suppose it reminds me of myself or what I would want for myself. Mark Zuckerberg the Facebook guy was a kind of nerd but everything worked out for him and this is his moment of glory he has it all, the money the respect maybe the women, the women should follow I suppose. Anyway for many reasons it touches me but also in that book about McCartney “Faul” says the song is written mostly by John Lennon about the new Paul. “Baby you’re a rich man too” Lennon speaking to the new Paul saying now you have made it ‘how does it feel to be one of the beautiful people’ now you’re a Beatle you are rich and you are COOL. Rich was nice but being ‘cool’ is even more important. Also in the song you can hear the whole Eastern influence that George Harrison was into. Anyway just wanted to put it on here it’s the Beatles and the video is from the movie about Facebook

    • Yes, this is a sound introductory example to the problems I face every day: $1 billion stacked as $100 bills is well over ten tons (20,000 pounds) of paper weight, and I have run out of space in my living room to store it all. Sometimes I have to strain my body to shuffle the paper weight onto my desk to make extra room for mobile money storage pallets I’ve requested from a nearby warehouse, but the towering mounds of currency often block the view of my computer monitors. Did you say you sent me an email? I must have missed it while my view was obstructed.

  88. Renee S. says:

    What the fuck Patrick? I go to sleep imagining locals coming forward to volunteer to get you to Topanga ASAP when needed and imagining what other ideas you will come up with when you start to feel like you will blow up. I wake up and you’re back to talking about Jews, Paul/Faul, bannings by Gretchen and bashing Primal. You’ve lost me. What happened? Did I say something that wasn’t okay with okay with you? Were you bored? Frustrated? Wanting a break from being so open? It’s like your wall went up again. I’m confused. The only thing that is not confusing is what you say about your childhood of being bullied and bullying. I think that that role has been recreated on this blog.

    • Patrick says:

      No Renee you did not say anything that was not ok with me. I have had weird day myself my computer crashed in the middle of writing about Topanga and I was not even finished with that but it seems the computer send it anyway. Whatever I am sorry if got of on a tangent about this Paul thing. It’s just I have found it fascinating from so many points of view (I am aware that not many others do) but I remember you liked John Lennon so much anyway sorry I guess I just randomly went somewhere………..nothing you did wrong

  89. Patrick says:

    It’s Easter Sunday but here is some of Kevin Barrett’s take on Trump’s ‘Easter message’ To me it fits Trump is ‘controlled’ maybe you could say ‘mind controlled’ whether willingly or not hardly matters

    “But let’s face it: The United States of America is a Christian-majority country. Today is Easter. The President’s holiday message should be: “Happy Easter!”
    Instead, the President of the (Christian-majority) United States has issued an Easter message that looks more like a hostage video. A professor at a major university who saw it emailed me:

    Oh my God. Talk about the demeanor of a mind-controlled zombie…..
    Instead of saying “happy Easter” and talking about Jesus, and maybe throwing in some eggs and rabbits as a sop to Christian-pagan syncretism, Trump begins by rambling on and on about how wonderful Jews are. He couldn’t make it any clearer that his main holiday message is “Happy Passover!” When he finally gets around to mentioning Easter, it’s almost an afterthought.

    The video has abysmally poor production values, considering that it’s coming from the White House. It’s too dark. And Trump looks extremely low-energy –like a kidnapping victim in a hostage video with someone offscreen pointing a gun at head or a knife at his penis”

  90. Otto Codingian says:

    excellent group for me. screaming murder about being unable to be around girls as an adolescent, and not having sex until 24. etc. some relief but now i feel the need for mommy or women more than ever. whatever. still alone. still no romance. i get antsy but also excited when hearing group members talk about the sex or relationships or dating situations that they are having. i wish i had had more dates as a kid and as an adult. whatever. as i said, got some relief yesterday but then what? i don’t have the energy or drive for romance with my wife nor any woman. i am tired because i eat and work too much. the pain inside me will not get fully released for a long time to come. not much i can do but watch adult videos or fantasize about women i see at work and that is getting old. whatever. it still all boils down to losing my mom, which no amount of sex could ever fix, not to mention the other traumatic events that followed and made the whole pain even bigger year after year. that stuff made me afraid of all people, and women especially.

  91. Otto Codingian says:

    P i bought that song on amazon. i wrote something earlier on this blog about that song; it reminded me of bad times a-brewing as high school times began in my life. what other beatles song you got for us?

  92. Otto Codingian says:

    Thanks for the song, Larry. Good set of lungs there. Is there any lyric in there that really stands out for you?

    • Larry says:

      Thanks Otto. I just arrived back home. I’ve been away on a landscape photography trip in the wild undisturbed badlands of southern Saskatchewan this Easter weekend with a friend, so haven’t been commenting on the blog lately. In this early spring time of year the badlands is a freezing cold and bleak landscape, but austerely wild and beautiful. Though I enjoyed photographing there and was inspired to meditation on life and my place in it, I felt conflicted in that I missed spending Easter with family friends and felt like I let them and myself down by not being with them. I feel like I might cry about it later this evening.

      But about the lyrics. To me they are primal. They reflect on getting older, on wondering where time went, and “it’s everybody sin You got to lose to know how to win”. So true, as we experience in PT. And everything you learn in life, wherever you learn it from, “All these feelings come back to you”, it’s all up to you what you do with it all.

      For me, soon to be retired and feeling strength, health and future waning as I age, I feel I have to shake hands with the reality that there is an end to ‘me’. I find it harder now than when I was young, to muster some hope and enthusiasm for the time I might still left. I feel like the challenge for me is to remain hopeful and find inner strength to keep taking new (scary for me) risks, going out of my comfort zone to find meaning and continue to grow my life even as old age takes firmer foothold.

      These final lyrics, especially the way she sings them, feel like a powerful exhortation for how to live life, and I’m reminded that the recipe is important at every stage.

      “Yeah, sing with me, sing for the year
      Sing for the laughter, sing for the tear
      Sing with me, just for today
      Maybe tomorrow, the good Lord will take you away
      Dream on
      Dream on
      Dream on
      Dream until your dreams come true.”

      Thanks for asking, Otto.

  93. Otto Codingian says:

    Well that led me to Creep – Vintage Postmodern Jukebox Radiohead Cover ft. Haley Reinhart. i am a fucking creep. so low. so fucked up.

  94. Leslie says:

    HIJACKED AGAIN – for the millionth time! STOP already.
    The ban was put in place when nothing else would do.
    For years people including skilled & caring therapists tried to help but instead of Patrick looking at himself at all he slaughtered them – and over and over again with his rants and disconnected hateful shit on here.

    To me – Jack does not get painted with the same brush. Jack has and gives love and kindness. He strives to better himself and listens to others.

    That’s worlds apart!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Leslie: That was/is so good to read.
      I do understand why some may feel frustrated with me.


      • Patrick says:

        Oh stop already you 2 fucking hypocrites! Jack is a lot WORSE than me in that he is the one who always pisses and craps over what I say and then I get ‘mad’ ………….YES lI do. This sonoabitch has nothing to do but lie in wait for me almost all the crap thrown he STARTS it. That’s the most important point. He goes on about ‘abolishing money’ and all kinds of rubbish and I LET him! I do NOT for no reason ‘critique’ him and ‘quote him back’ he is the fucking wiseguy wanna be professor, demented schoolteacher without a school, judge without a courtroom

        I thought it was very interesting the way LOTS of people start to see through this whited sepulcher. Now here come the censor with her ‘thoughts’ more like her Talmudic spinning and word salad. Her brain seems to be mush from 50 years of ineffective therapy. Gretchen you have no authority in the real sense. Did you read that story about how the holohoax was all based on TORTURE!. There is your ‘sacred’ story that I or anybody cannot question. But I DO question it and none of your non existent ‘authority’ makes a scrap of difference. Here to make it easy for you you dope READ it READ it again and say you are sorry. You should be you run a sorry organization


    • Chris P says:

      totally agree Leslie

      • Patrick says:

        You WOULD! You to me wrote the book in the uselessness of therapy at it was and is done with you attitude and (non) performance at the ‘repeat’ of 2013. It was the last ‘formal therapy’ I have been involved in I was so amazed and struck by your refusal to engage in any kind of straight forward way

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Patrick: Get over it. Chris refused to shake you hand … for his own very good reasons … what is such a big deal about that? It was you then leaving the ‘retreat’ that made matters worse for you IMO.


  95. Leslie, I agree one hundred percent! Forgive me for not addressing this sooner but both yesterday and today have been non stop. I will follow up n this with some thoughts this evening. Gretchen

  96. Patrick says:

    And before anyone and her name starts with a “G” says this stuff about the holohoax is irrelevant. IT IS NOT! It was the reason albeit a very bogus reason that was given for ‘banning’ me in the first place. Keep that in mind the only ‘rule’ I had broken was bringing up that subject. So it is NOT irrelevant so why not slow down here Gretchen and READ something for a change. I know your ‘opinion’ and it seems to be based on nothing except TORTURE if you actually trace it back. Aren’t you into ‘tracing things back/? Aren’t you all? Or is it OK so long as we keep it ONLY ‘personal’ that itself is a bogus Talmud like distinction. More spinning and divided and fooling and raking off what little money most of the Elders have. Just keep taking from them, have them live in the hope of this ‘cure’ and traipsing from all over the world to do a ‘retreat’ oops I mean ‘repeat’. Why don’t you ACTUALLY ‘retreat’ retreat from you holohoax stories. Not only do you not you ‘ban’ someone who points this out. This emperor has clothes at all your ‘thought’s I am sure will be more Talmudic ramblings and word salad

  97. Patrick says:

    Gretchen you always game for deconstruction the culture of others now look at yourself and your ‘culture’ The trauma based mind control of circumcision and all the demented behavior that follows. Get a dose of this. Janov ‘speculates’ that so called muslim terror is because of first line pains even though most of these are hoaxes anyway how about Judaic terror. And birthed I believe in this horrific act of circumcision. Throw the light on that and thank me for pointing it out and actually ‘understanding’ it. But no you will ban me! The world has no hope when the hope of it acts like this


  98. Margaret says:

    well, maybe we pick up on you recreating the situation with the ever critical daddy here for some reason..
    we all wonder what the feeling might be.
    daddy you don’t hurt me? not that surely but well, only you might find out some day, but I keep feeling there is something going on.

  99. Margaret says:

    reading your comments suddenly brought tears to my eyes.
    I admire you. you are so together and gently direct and accepting.
    adult is another word coming to my mind.
    that together with having had the privilege to witness your vulnerability and pain and how you were able to go for it and let it come out, again makes me teary while writing this.
    you are an example of how despite of all the suppressed anger and grief, it is possible to go for the underlying need and pain.
    as I say, I truely admire you.
    your friend Margaret

  100. Margaret says:

    if you really sent that mail to your wife that is very nice to hear.
    it sounds like true and constructive and caring communication.
    hope it helped you to break through the awful hopeless boredom of the bassinet and find something to get some pleasure in.
    I do relate to some extend, I tend to wake up feeling like there is nothing I can imagine that would make me feel good, only feeling I wish I could go on sleeping and sleeping, but once I drag myself up with the help of the cats, it often wears off.
    the last few days a sore neck and headache make it harder, but reading the blog in the morning also helps me to feel somehat connected and not all alone and on my own in a world of strangers. which i still am of course.

  101. Margaret says:

    yesterday my brother brought our mom over to my place around noon, to have a little e Easter celebration.
    we ate some eastern goodies,mom played a bit of piano and we sat all three on the couch looking at one of the many photo albums of our joined past.
    that was nice enough, and then we drove, the three of us, back to mom’s nursing home.
    we arranged her room, putting flowers in a vass, her clean laundry in the wardrobe and just had a cosy time while she ate the lunch they had guarded and heated up for her.
    they told my brother how well she is doing, being the best of the ward and helping out other people.
    mom’s fingernails were painted bright red, which one of the nurses must have done, and mom was thrilled about it. it is a sweet thing that nurse did.

    then we went for a long walk, mom admiring every big tree we walked by, many of them of course, these big straight ones, beeks I think is the English word, huge and with cathedrallike branches.
    we did a good walk in the fresh breeze, for an hour or so, and met a few people mom knows, it was nice.

    then we went to the cafetaria of the home, where upon leaving mom had to greet a lot of people she knew as well, and wave to others she did not really recognize.
    I laughed about it when she wispered she had no idea who they were, and that she just waved, and I said I felt like I was walking around with the queen.
    that made her laugh as well, and I called her the queen of the home, which inspired her to wave more royal like..
    then she started singing an old song about a queen, the queen of Lombardia, and the verse went ‘and the queen, she waved and waved and waved…’ it was so funny, and endearing, it will remain such a warm memory of her, her spirit and good mood and courage and optimism.
    my brother laughed as well when I said mom has a song for every occasion, amazing songs she comes up with from her young age, with al the words and she is so good at interpreting them with gestures and intonation, and a great sense of humor.

    it also makes me sad, I don’t want to lose her, am so scared for that…

    her phone is still not fixed, and I miss being able to call her.
    april 24 it should finally be connected if all goes well..
    the good thing is she seems more fit, an d more present in the situation, nice to talk with, even with the limitations. and very very sweet.

  102. Margaret says:

    that was a very good comment.
    very clear and honest and it explains a lot.
    way to go wayward sheep.

  103. Margaret says:

    I happened to run into the last part of a program about a girl, about 11 years old, who had been in a bad quarrel with a former girlfriend at school for the past 2 years, namecalling etc.
    she was now baking a huge cake with all kinds of hearts and smarties and little puppets on it, for the other girl, as she wanted to try to make up and make peace.
    the camera followed her up to the door of the other girl, who opened and was surprised, the first girl saying to the other one, who was still a bit insecure about what went on, that she had come wit a cake she made, to make up for all the times she had not been nice in the past years, and that she wanted was sorry about that.
    the other girl laughed and uttered a bit of what sounded like a sob at the same time, but soon they were both inside and giggling and laughing.
    it really touched me, brought me to tears.

    I thought about how a true apology can finally make room and safety to allow that deepest layer of pain to be processed, while dissolving it.
    i imagined a person I felt badly hurt by, to come up to me and say she was sorry, and knew , at least if it felt real and sincere, not like ‘I am sorry you felt hurt, which does not mean anything like an apology, but if a genuine sorry is made, a kind of healing can take place.
    at the same time as allowing that last grief to evaporate, only leaving the memory of it, as a faint warning but not as pain or fear.

    but well, in the case I think of I will have to accept it won’t come, but it was interesting to feel how the hurt just lays waiting there for possible resolution..

  104. Renee S. says:

    Thanks Margaret, I am moved by your kind and thoughtful words. They mean a lot to me.

  105. Jack Waddington says:

    I said a few days back I would go into some of the things I had been writing about in more detail, later. Here they are:-
    1) I am way less frustrated, angered and feel less insulted than I used to be. Due to several insights over a period of time. The first of these was:- That I could not be insulted … I could only ALLOW myself to be insulted. The next item might demonstrate how that came about.
    2) If and when someone was insulting or berating me for whatever reason. I was able to step back and see this was their feeling. Seeing it as their feeling began to make a lot of sense and I was able to get OUT of their obit. In other words … something is going on with them. I might have be the catalyst to their feeling, BUT I was not the cause.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      3) The next was to just listen and not have a ready answer. This did take a longer time; since I was an inveterate talker. Always with a ready answer, often before the other person had finished speaking.
      4) Struggling to achieve something made me realize I was approaching the problem from the wrong angle. If I were to pause for a second or two, I saw the possibility of trying to approach the problem from a different perspective. Over time this worked very well for me.
      5) Being defensive. When I read “The Primal Scream” and read about defensiveness as being counter productive, I did subliminally recognize the reasoning; BUT getting into a position of being able, for the most part, (but not always); was the hardest, but in hindsight the most rewarding. The reality for me is; there is NOTHING to defend. I am, what I am.

    • Erron says:

      Laughable, if it wasn’t so sad. Your self-delusion grows daily. Talk of insults is third level, thought focused, abstracted from feeling. The fact is, what you use your reasoning mind to reject as an insult, is something that HURT you. And with the usual response of a paranoid, you put it on to the person hurting you: it’s always THEIR feeling.

      The bottom line: you’ve behaved badly here lately, like an arrogant, pompous ass. And you haven’t been in touch with your feelings – O Guru of the feeling world though you might be – enough to apologise. You just haven’t been man enough, Jack. Like I said, sad.

  106. Jack Waddington says:

    6) “Acting Out”. the first part in this endeavor was to know what was an act-out and what was a real feeling. The first was somewhat reactionary, and that was difficult to pause, and reflect upon. The second … just feeling it was more painful, BUT I did recognize it was the way to go. If I was serious about Primal Therapy, as I certainly was.
    7) the last one, and one that I grasped after reading “The Primal Scream” for reasons that were due to a re-living experience way before I knew about therapy. AND that was knowing that Primal Therapy/Theory was a whole different realm from anything I had previously known, and it was;- there is this OTHER state of being. The feeling state … as opposed to the thinking rationalizing state; that had been the my way of life, from as far back a I could remember … up until that point.
    I hope what I have written make sense, but primarily, it was to fulfill the promise I made earlier.


    • Erron says:

      Jack, you never left the thinking state. You are a lifelong stay-at-home head tripper.

    • Erron says:

      And the reason I’m so frustrated and angry with you is because, as Chris and I believe it was Leslie and others have pointed out recently, you are one big hearted, decent human being. I do like you Jack, I just don’t have a lot of respect for you at the moment, due to your blind arrogance.

      The only thing I can say further is, have you considered what a huge opportunity you might be teetering on the brink of? If you are able to somehow put aside your vanity in the current situation, to accept initially that you have been hurt by the feedback, and then to have the courage to go deeper? Why am I so convinced it’s a huge opportunity? Because of the huge rejection you are exhibiting.

      I wish you well, Jack. I just wish you would/could try a different tack, one that wasn’t coming from your prefrontal cortex.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Erron: Your first email to me pissed me off; and I deleted it immediately. This second one I feel is worthy of my responding. Should you wish to know why you “piss me off” I am stating it here-under.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          First off: YOU ARE NOT INSIDE MY HEAD. I feel, after 36 years of therapy I know myself.
          I am not sure if you are a psycho therapist, but if you are I would NEVER consult you for any therapy.
          I made a concerted effort to let everyone that responded to me; re-Patrick, know what was going with on me. You were all free to not believe me. I repeat: Patrick and I have been closely associated with one another for over 30 year. I know him well just as he knows me well.
          I know him better than anyone on this blog.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            It was my sincerest feeing (“belief” if you prefer) that ALL the comments to me were ‘more in order of each of your comfort than anything of any other relevance’; even though I read them all and gave pause before responding back.
            You may well not belive that Patrick’s remarks did not touch me (to use your word ‘hurt’ me). that is entirely up to you and you are free to say so.
            This brings up my final point to you. I saw in yours and Renee’s responses to me that you were both very Angry by the way I responded to ALL these ‘demands’ that I felt were being made of me. Not one of you stated you were angry and left me feeling you ALL felt “above” it all.
            Since I “love” blogging I make a point of responding to every one that respods to me and some other as well … when ever I am inspired to do so.

            Meantime, I do not ‘dislike you either Erron. Jack

            • Erron says:

              Jack,you are locked inside the stone prison of your own denial. That’s all I have to say to you, since obviously all our efforts here to get you to have the simple courage to admit you might be wrong have been wasted. I have better things to do…

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Erron: Fine if that is your take on me. The only question I have is:- on what authority do you ‘know’ I am “locked into [my] own denial”

                That’s a very forceful statement.


  107. It is interesting to note that Shane’s article very much applies to this situation in my view. While we all have pain I don’t believe that excuses the abusivness that exists in some of these responses. A discussion about the Holocaust is not at all off limits but the anger behind the comments we are reading could never lead to any meaningful discussion. I also believe it is not meant to be a discussion . Instead it is a rant and should you dare to disagree or point out the obvious weakness in the argument you can be certain that you will be called names and told that you know nothing. We also need to remember that while I agree people are free to say what they believe to be true that when they are communicated in this particular way they cause a great deal of hurt to others. Being asked to leave the blog is not something I take lightly. After months of allowing these comments to be printed I asked that it stop. But remember it was not only me that felt it should stop, I was receiving numerous calls and requests that an end be put to this behavior. It is odd to me that after months and months of expressing these views that there would be any crying or complaining about censorship. These theories have been clearly expressed and no one has any doubt about what they are. There are plenty of other places to express these views and in fact they have been clearly expressed here for months . Maybe it is time to focus on those that have been hurt by these comments.Over these many months I have seen many people reach out in the hope of understanding more fully what historical issues might be provoking this rage. I myself have written privately with my concerns. I have heard the stories about bullying and the feelings of being an outcast. Many of us have discussed how clearly these things now mimic the current situation. I am sympathetic to that but at the same time it can’t be a justification for the ugliness we are witnessing at times. Of course knowing a connection to ones past and actually feeling that connection are two different things. I have had numerous emails expressing shock at the homophobic slurs directed at Jack, the abusivness towards me and the anti Semitic rants. People have truly had enough of it. As for Jack …. well I am not saying that Jack does not ” poke” at Patrick and like Erron I wonder if there is a part of Jack that wants Patrick on the blog. I don’t know nor do I have any interest in comparisons. I just know there is a difference between that and the name calling . If you grew up Gay in this country then you know what it’s like to have words like Fag used. It’s very damaging. I also wince when I hear a man call a woman a bitch as I was . It is so disrespectful and frankly abusive. Lastly I will tell you the thing that made my decision one hundred percent clear. I asked myself if it was truly in this persons best interest to continue in this way. For me the answer was no. In fact the problem was escalating as evidenced by these latest comments. I advised, as Jack did, that the comments be stopped for a period of time and that a break from the blog would be best. He could contact me to return in a month. I think that was reasonable and I still believe it would be best. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – a lot of this sounds reasonable in a way though I don’t care for all the ‘behind the scenes’ feeling I get from it. People calling you I hope not the ADL or JDL or some of these groups whose business it is to ruin lives and turn lives into a living hell. Which they have done and they feel justified in doing. This to me is one of the insidious effects of ‘holocaust belief’ it fills peoples heads with ‘hate’ hate for things that mostly never happened and they are on a jihad of ‘never again’ and actually inflict so much suffering and pain on OTHER people because of their ‘beliefs’

      Also the thing about ‘name calling’ that really does cut both ways. My biggest issue with you was/is exactly this that’s about all you ever did in response to what I was saying. You constantly tried to drop those labels on me ‘neo nazi’ ‘white nationalist’ ‘fascist’ ‘national socialist’. Please let’s not get into this again but it’s just pure ‘name calling’ You are outraged that you beliefs are challenged you never ever address it. Did you respond to that article about testicle crushing that is ‘Nurenberg justice’ no did not and you will not. But you WILL ‘ban’ someone who talks about it. I do contrast you actually with both Daniel and Renee who are both Jewish I think and who at least don’t freak out about this issue. Who meaningfully even engage about it. I respect and admire them for that but what I have seen from you is very different.

      This thing about Jack ‘wanting’ me on the blog is to me a bit mild about what he does. It has been amazing to me the way he has been allowed to get away with crapping on me for years and years. Not this time as many others actually seem to see through it but the disrespect and judging and reflexive comments he makes to and about me are about as OPPOSITE to and ‘real feeling’ you can imagine. He has done it relentlessly for over 5 years now and ok you are correct in an ideal world I should not call him ‘fag’ etc but can’t you see i am provoked relentlessly and to use on of your words ‘hatefully’

      Anyway I don’t know what to say from here I could gracefully shut up I suppose……………..that’s not really like me but maybe to all those ‘whisperers behind the scenes’ you might tell them what?……………………I am searching here well maybe aside and more important than the principle of Patrick being able to express his feelings how about maybe the REALITY of what he might be complaining about. That this country at least and it seems many other in the West are have been literally hijacked by Zionism we have plunged the world in war and misery and refugees all for and behalf of Zionism. Zionist did 9/11 in order to start this process and they continue with ‘hoax terror events’ all over Europe and here for more of the same. We murder and destroy whole countries for this demented people. A people who have become truly problematic for the whole world and seem to be driving to another World War. Don’t ‘reduce’ this to Patrick feeling he is just noticing and reacting to what is actually happening in the world and he has made some stabs at ‘understanding’ it and one thing he came up with is circumcision……………….is this a cultural habit to traumatize a whole people and Patrick is really just asking us to come back to a more Christian tradition and that is one specific right there. St Paul abhorred the practice and so did Christendom in general but now all that seems to be in reverse we are back to the habits of a murderous desert tribe and we are meant to shut up and think it is good for us. So tell them it’s a really really BIG picture and you like everyone else are just struggling to come to terms with it

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Patrick: Before you get your “knickers in a truss” again. I feel it would be expedient to ponder why being quoted back, seemingly, irritates the shit outta you. I quote you so-as-to-let-you-know what I am referring to. That’s all If indeed you are hurt by it …. all I can add is:- that is your problem; not my intent.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Quote:- “But you WILL ‘ban’ someone who talks about it”. I feel Gretchen is reluctantly banning you, since many have asked her to do so. I get that Gretchen is not banning you for mentioning it (your word “expressing” it) but for being obnoxious in stating it, and seemingly, disturbing others on the blog. I grant this is the way I see it, and you have recently stated you meant to “Shame and hurt me”

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Another:- “This thing about Jack ‘wanting’ me on the blog is to me a bit mild about what he does. It has been amazing to me the way he has been allowed to get away with crapping on me for years and years.”. Firstly; I don’t care either way, whether you stay or leave the blog. If you feel I am “crapping” on you … what would you suggest you were attempting to do to me when you first came on the blog … and have continued to do.
            I grant you now admit you were trying to “shame and hurt me”. Since I categorically stated your comment did not ‘touch’ me in any other way, other than to respond to you. I respond to many things people write on this blog. I get pleasure at responding … not hurting anyone.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              And yet another:- “the principle of Patrick being able to express his feelings how about maybe the REALITY of what he might be ” I feel that you are confusing two issues here. The first is:- you adamant belief that you have the facts and the rest of us don’t. I feel that is a super arrogance.
              The second is:- Your refusal to even consider it has more to do with your opinion … rather than “the facts out there”

              • Jack Waddington says:

                And now a fourth one:- “So tell them it’s a really really BIG picture and you like everyone else are just struggling to come to terms with it”
                I partly answered this in the former part. However, Who’s “BIG picture”? and what makes you feel the rest of us are “STRUGGLING” with these same issues? I don’t see it that way.


        • Patrick says:

          Well it’s true I do see you ‘quoting back’ other people at times and I do think then ‘oh well that’s just his way of doing things’ like it’s not only personal to me which mostly I feel it is when you do it to me. I feel you are ‘judging’ me ‘grading my papers’ etc it seems silly also. This is supposed to be a ‘feeling’ blog it not something I put on a blackboard to be ‘graded’. it’s like you judge everything and I have to tell you the few times you give me a ‘good grade’ does not feel right either. I do not write here to pass some gauntlet of yours I write to say what is going on with me at any given time good bad or indifferent. Could be about politics myself whatever but ‘grading’ seems about the most pointless and crazy thing you are doing. It also re-enforces all kinds of ‘shoulds’ like talk this way not that way, talk about this not about that.We all have our own journeys often we ourselves have no real knowledge about why we say the things we do who are you to insert yourself between the person and their thoughts in this case me. I am aware that you are bored you never seem to read a book or anything you kind of hover around this blog and ok it works for you for whatever reason I would only ask if I am still allowed on here to let me be or at least a lot more than you do. It distorts what I say also I am ALWAYS anticipation an ‘attack’ from you whatever I write. This may loom too large in my mind sometimes I read an old blog and actually do you refrain from ‘grading’ more than I imagine you do but let’s face it you do an awful lot of it. And try to keep in mind whether you give me an “A” or an “F” both are pretty meaningless, actually I find the “A” even more condescending than the “F” Truthfully I want no grade at all I just want to talk in the way I want and what I want to talk about. On a personal note I was always ‘good in school’ and got lots of ‘A’s so now i would not not compete in that way

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Patrick: If you feel I am “grading you” that is your feeling. It is not mine or my intend. I merely for the sake of blogging wish to comment on what you and others write. It’s a blog first and foremost.
            I, and and have been for many years, aware that you got good grades at school.
            Where it, you wished I did not reply to at all (to “leave you alone”) you should have thought about ALL that, before coming on this blog and blowing off about me. I get the feeling; though I could be wrong, that it is fine to attempt to shame and hurt me, “BUT oh no! you, Jack, do not have the right to hurt, grade or even respond to me, Patrick”.
            The saying goes “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”


            • Phil says:

              As far as I can see this comment comes closest to some kind of reflection on your part about your responses to Patrick. About him coming on the blog. But is there any way to get through that and be done with it.
              Engaging with him seems to help him to “blow off” more about you and keep him on the blog in endless cycles of the same thing. So it seems contradictory.

            • Patrick says:

              Well Jack Ronald Reagan’ famous quip come to mind “There you go again” Even at the time I ‘came on the blog’ seemingly to you some kind of ‘event’ that can never be atoned for (some kind of original primal scene that you hoard and see yourself as full or virtue kind of like primal therapy itself as misused constant victimization and self pity)Gretchen suggested a joint session and I agreed. You did not and even used the contemptuous phrase of basically ‘you couldn’t be bothered to spend the $60.00’ in spite of the fact I gave you $100K as a ‘retirement’ still $60 was beyond you) On the blog and inspired by David the Canadian guy I sincerely offered to ‘talk’ ‘meet’ or whatever privately and I stressed that part. You had no interest at all you said and added if you saw me on the street you would cross the road to the other side. Which I told you though I did not like it I had to accept it but then I wonder why if you would cross the street yet you comment and ‘grade’ me all the time. This of course gets into how ‘real’ any of this is. it seems to me you enjoy doing all this in public (exhibitionism?) but in reality have ho interest in “Peace” at all. Recently I actually wrote to you privately wanting some kind of “Peace” you did not reply. So either your memory is failing you badly and you are just a bare faced liar I will let that up to.you.

              I mentioned in the private email how it does not feel right at all to go to our graves (we know not the date or the hour) just finishing up like this. I still say the same but I cannot force you to do anything and I suppose all this ‘rejection’ makes me wonder……………wonder who you really are and what you are made of. I think primal theory business is mostly just that a ‘theory’ and actually it seems if anything to have squeezed more life and spontaneity out of you than it put in. I find you comment above very disappointing it the attitude of keep the war going (like in Syria?) no peacemaking there at all just smart alec punch back. And like I said I brace myself in everything I write for some abuse from you which I usually get. Renee wondered if I felt ‘sage’ I absolutely do not with you around also you know a lot about my personal life I feel like I cannot comment on that much or you will be all over it like flies on shit. Not to blame you all the way my legacy of being bullied maybe makes me re-create it with you, also if I had not being bullied I would have ‘left’ you and hense ‘here’ a long time ago. But I do like it here in many ways and the early encouragement I got from some people here still rings in my ears a bit it was so unusual in ‘primal world’ which is mostly just negative and programmatic shit. So anyway Jack I am still fine with meeting you or a joint session or whatever and anything you feel comfortable with. But I do feel if you ‘reject’ me as I expect you will you should also ‘ignore’ me a lot more on the blog. Cross to the other side of the street as it were.

              • Patrick says:

                in relation to Renee’s question ‘sage’ should read ‘safe’

              • Jack Waddington says:

                I feel corrected … yes you did offer to meet … and a joint session.
                If you wish for a joint session and are willing to pay for it I will go for that.

                Living on a half pension just about covers my expenses.


                • Patrick says:

                  I guess I should not pass up a chance that may never come again. i do question why I should pay for it all more on a ‘principle’ here but just saying. I would not make that a deal breaker but I HAVE given you a lot of money! Something should be left over. As far as a ‘joint session’ I would actually prefer some local coffee shop where we could sit outside or something. Again I would not make that a deal breaker but it seems a bit childish and ‘retro’ to actually to a room at the PI and pay for it. Also would Gretchen be ok with that I could understand if she wasn’t. Anyway Jack I do like “Peace” for all my fighting deep inside I am a peacemaker if a very frustrated one

                  • Jack Waddington says:

                    Patrick: if you are still willing to indulge a joint session at the Primal Institute: I am all game for that.

                    I am not game for meeting you at a coffee house or any other place. I don’t trust you. that simple.

                    I am asking you to pay for the whole session since I live on a half pension of way less than $1,000.00 per month that just about covers my expenses. The money’s you gave me for all the years that I did my best for the company; has now all been accounted for and I do not have ready access to that money currently.

                    Arrange a time and date, but before solidifying it check with me. For the most part I am available most of the time. The exceptions are when I need to go to the hospital to see my doctors.


                    • Patrick says:

                      OK I am not going to argue about it anymore. First off I need to check with Gretchen if it is ok with her. Presumably you see it here Gretchen you can say yes or no here if that is ok with you. Then I can follow up about times etc

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Wow Gretchen!!! that was so very clear. I hope others see it as clearly as I (felt) I did.

      Thanks for that Gretchen. Jack

    • Shane says:

      My earlier response to Patrick seems to fit well here so I will repeat:

      There is a Primal dilemma that always comes up. “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? But that is not how Primal Therapy works. It is a subtle process and we individually can handle only so much Pain at a time. We also need a “safe space” in which to feel. The Primal Institute must exercise sensitivity and judgement when encouraging or censoring behavior. They are in charge of the therapy they offer and the setting in which it takes place. Therapy is not a democracy. If you don’t agree with or like their approach or are frustrated by it, that is understandable. But you can’t have what you want. You only get what they give you.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Shane: You suggest I “don’t think you have any valid excuse for ignoring the well considered wishes on this list, that you not engage Patrick in this setting”. I adamantly disagree. I don’t feel that any of those remarks were “well considered” I felt (for what it is worth) they were all ‘shooting from the hip’. FOR, and I keep repeating; their own comfort on the blog. You can believe all you like that I am deluding myself. I also suggested that IMO if I chose to ignore him, as I had done many, many time in the past; Patrick was NOT going to go away or even stop his ranting both at me and others, and that includes Gretchen.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          That said, I will go onto your impression;- “And my impression is that your Primal arguments are a manipulative strategy, along with others, to continue to provoke reactions and demand attention.” I have no problem with you voicing that. I do however, have an opinion about it. This, to me, is your feeling as I read you. NOT mine. They were a series of insights I had had over a long period of my 36 years in therapy. I thought they were worth posting … that is all.

          In your next comment you say:- “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? ” Yes I totally agree with you here; AND for the rest you state in this particular comment.


  108. Renee S. says:

    Patrick……you are so stuck in this struggle with Gretchen! It is the same discussion/rant/blowing up that has been going on for how long now? I relate so well to long, drawn out and futile struggles. They are exhausting. I am picturing you on your deathbed still blogging about the evil Jews and Zionist plots. And then boom! That’s it! Life is over. A sad way to die. Here is some good shock therapy on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urA82Z88WRA.

    That is why I started wondering about what is motivating this struggle. A while ago, you agreed with me that when you talk to/about Gretchen or the Jews, you are really talking about parts of yourself. I asked you to explain. Silence. A few days ago, I asked you what you were needing from Gretchen/others on the blog, either before or when you are blowing up. Silence. I’m left wondering why you feel you cannot say more. Is it that you don’t feel safe? Is it being stuck in your comfort zone (of vilifying and being vilified)? Is it the addiction to the struggle? Is it the fear of being vulnerable? I know that I and others on this blog would still like to know.

    • Patrick says:

      No Renee I do not feel safe here at all. Jack in my mind at least is a major block like I just said to him even if I approach anything private he is likely to be all over it like flies on shit. Or at least that is my fear maybe he wouldn’t I suspect I might even get an “A” from him but that’s not what I want either. It’s like ‘feeling’ to him are some kind of public charade I know this cyber communication is iffy to begin with but for some and I am thinking of Jack it’s a perfect medium for him. So much self advetizing and unreality it’s only the integrity of the people that can be relied on (or not) I have thought a few times about starting my own kind of ‘primal’ blog but one of the guys I really wanted on does not have a computer! The other one was/is game they are both ex-primal people and are very interesting in the kind of stuff I am. We talk a few times a week so that’s nice. “here’ is something else for me I do believe in getting behind all the news of the day into personal matters and reactions but here i do feel very stymied to the point I can’t talk ‘politics’ (banning) or even personal stuff very much (flies on shit)

  109. Phil says:

    It seems to me that Patrick’s struggling here with us and Gretchen will continue indefinitely. Maybe the same for Jack’s struggle with Patrick.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: I repeat: I have no struggle with Patrick. IF your analysis of me is otherwise, so-be-it I enjoy responding to him. I do not set out to hurt him. If he is hurt by my responses that is something I can NOTHING about.

      You are free to NOT believe me. That is your prerogative.


      • Phil says:

        If not a struggle, a pattern of interactions with Patrick. Not an analysis, an observation.
        Patrick says something, you poke him, he has a reaction, a lot of insults go flying both ways. Do you deny that?
        It’s fun for you, but Patrick says it hurts him. This is blogging?
        I recall him saying he was willing to work to resolve these issues between you two, but you refuse, you don’t reflect on it either. Something is going on, if not a struggle, and as you’ve been hearing I’m not the only one seeing this.

        • Phil says:

          It seems true that you readily put all questioning aside with rationalizations about your interactions with Patrick. Here are some of the ways you seem to do it: we are just trying to make the blog comfortable for ourselves, we are not stating our feelings, it is blogging and you are having fun, you know Patrick best etc.
          I thought your reflections would address some of the comments but instead you told us about the skin on the back of your hands. It all seems to be ways to avoid the points that have been brought up.. Maybe what you were trying to say with all that is you are getting old and we should leave you alone, and let you be. Is that what you want? It is a therapy related blog and I thought you were dedicated to the process. I’m sure it’s unpleasant and I wouldn’t like these things being said to me, so I can understand that.
          It’s not the first time I’ve commented on this, but the first time that many said something about it at the same time. Maybe because it’s so obvious when, in theory, Patrick has been banned, yet it continues.
          My own feelings on it are frustration and annoyance. Not so much that I can’t ignore it, but it’s worth commenting on.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: Fine … I accept that is your observation.
            I used to poke Patrick; I have not done that for sometime … I stated and used the word “Poke” in the Facebook sense. I merely respond to Patrick. I don’t see anything wrong or misplaced in that.
            I agree that a lot of insults go flying. I do contend however, that I do not counter with insults. If indeed you see it that way so-be-it.
            I do not recall Patrick EVER stating that he is willing to work with me.
            To the best of my feelings/thinking I did address EVERY comment made to me. However, seemingly, that did not address it (I feel) the way you’s all, wanted me to address it, IMO.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              My blogging about the state of my health was in not any attempt on my part to distract from those responding to me over that matter. It was merely my reflection upon myself as I currently am. A completely other post.
              I am very dedicated to Primal Therapy and very happy there is this blog to post to.
              That many responded to me … I felt very strongly I did responded. I did however, feel that many wanted me to respond the way they felt/thought, I out to respond.
              As I feel you are very aware, there is a psychology of “ganging up” when situation have a general consensus. I feel the 2016 election here in the US was a case in point. I don’t feel many voted for Trump … I feel they voted against Hilary Clinton.


              • Phil says:

                I haven’t been influenced in my thoughts and feelings about you by what others have said here.
                It could be of value to see that many feel the same way and ask yourself why, rather than to see it as ganging up against you.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Phil: As I know you know … “Ganging up” on someone or thing; is a psychological phenomenon.
                  I could well be wrong; but I see the desire to “gang up” when there is a sense of agreement from those doing the ‘ganging up’.

                  It’s like they have found some common agreement.
                  I am aware however that you stated you responded to me in-spite of others stating something similar.

                  I can accept that and live with it.
                  I neither feel I am struggling with Patrick, nor provoking him OR even affected by his responses to me. I wonder why there was not the same responses to Patrick both when he first came on the blog … and since. It’s a blog and blogging, from my experience, is about argument and counter argument. People, and myself blog from the pure desire to blog. I don’t see blogging as a struggle. It’s a pure feeling to respond to other and perhaps to see other points of view.

                  While this is a feeling blog I am not sure that it deviates from most other blogs that I have encountered. Another way to state is is “Point and counter point”.


  110. Renee S. says:

    Gretchen, once again I agree with the content and logic of your message to Patrick. The problem is that this approach does not work with Patrick as he is not coming from a logical place. Not only does it not work, it gives Patrick permission to keep the focus away from where it so clearly needs to be, which is on what is motivating his behavior. As you so clearly say, “the anger behind the comments we are reading could never lead to any meaningful discussion”. I am left wondering the following things: Why do you continue to address the content of his messages? Why do you not direct your comments to Patrick directly (so that you are not ‘preaching to the choir’)? What is stopping you from actually ‘banning’ Patrick from this blog (if you feel that this would be helpful)? And is there something in your own personal history that could be stopping you from trying a different approach? Or something in your personal history motivating you to keep the same response? Just curious.
    P.S. I have very mixed feelings about ‘banning’ someone. On the one hand, this is only a blog, it’s not like banning him from something like using the bathroom, seeing friends/family or living his life. On the other hand, ‘banning’ someone leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. My uncle was banned from South Africa in the 1980s for his political activities. Countries that ban people are always scary countries.

  111. Sylvia says:

    Renee, I have seen every approach to Patrick with Gretchen. Nothing works. And because so many of us have asked Gretchen about the problems with him she is forced to talk to us because he cannot listen. Many times we all have urged him to seek help from somewhere, anywhere. Nothing gets through. We encouraged him to reach out to family and friends to help with what worries him. As you say, life is short. But on the other hand, someone with compulsions and anxieties is driven by them and no here and now advice will penetrate, but it was a good video you linked on the mindfulness topic anyway.

  112. Renee S. says:

    Sylvia, I disagree with you. I disagree that Patrick cannot listen. I have experienced him as listening to me. And I disagree that Gretchen has tried many approaches. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have only seen the rational, logical and content-based approaches, used over and over again, in different ways, and ways that make Patrick the ‘other’. I’m glad you liked the video. I’m surprised I posted it, since I am allergic to mindfulness! But it seemed appropriate.

  113. Sylvia says:

    I will agree with you Renee, Patrick has listened to me a couple of times too–it does happen.
    I will leave it to Gretchen to go over her own reams and binders of answers to Patrick to fish out her varied approaches.

  114. Leslie says:

    Strange to me Renee that you feel it important to reach Patrick here. Why not continue your rescue mission elsewhere privately?
    We have put up with way too much abuse for way too long!

    • I’m have to disagree with you on this one, Leslie. I really think Renee and Patrick are having a nicely productive dialogue & Patrick’s not aiming his verbal guns at the rest of us for the moment, so why not see where it leads?. Maybe they will work something out or maybe we will all understand something better together? Partitioning such information away from here only leads to less understanding & more alienation overall, in my view.

  115. Renee, I’m wondering if you have only periodically been on the blog? It feels to me that you have missed a lot . You asked why I had not banned Patrick…… I did. So I am confused as that is largely what some of Patrick’s recent rants have been about… being banned. I believe banning is a term that WordPress uses but actually in Patrick’s case I only asked that he take a break for a month and then speak to me. Is that so scary? As I said I truly believe that was a decision in Patrick’s best interest. I have said multiple times over this last year that I am very concerned which I think he can verify. I do believe my last two longer posts on this subject and Sylvia’s response address your other questions but just in case I was not clear I will try to make my thoughts more precise. You are concerned that only content is being addressed. This has been going on for at least a year. There have been many questions on the blog from myself and others about the historical connections. Why would you assume otherwise? Do you really think that no one would have thought to ask how this resembles his past either on the blog or privately ? Do you not think that people have expressed serious concern about the rage behind these issues? His answer was to describe the scene he discussed with you and several other scenes of similar nature. Do you recall your surprise when you asked why Patrick was at it again after discussing these painful memories? Well we have all had that experience multiple times….over months not days. As for addressing Patrick directly…. of course I have done that. It is only recently that I have directed my comments to the group and not to Patrick. Why? Because I was asked to address these issues on the blog vs ignoring them. As for trying a different approach…this is the different approach Renee. As you point out he is not coming from a logical place so why would I approach him directly if he can’t hear what is being said? You feel Patrick can hear you. Good, we have all felt that from time to time that is until we disagree. The difference between me and you in this situation is you are focused on one persons pain. I am focused on each individual and the group as a whole. The group as a whole, both on and off the blog have asked that this be stopped. Most poignant of all perhaps was Daniels plea that Patrick’s comments about Jews and the Holocaust be stopped but he was certainly not the only one. In fact I don’t know if I can even remember anyone who did not ask that at some point or another. Ironically maybe Jack was the exception. Partly because this is what happens… the comments are so extreme, so vitriolic that they become the focus of the blog. That is partly the intent of course. But when you are listening to someone say that you are lying ( basically) if you claim your whole family was killed in the Holocaust then maybe you should have the time and safety to discuss it I think. As for Jack and Patrick… these are two people with a long history and many feelings but I don’t see Patrick as a victim of Jacks. If you look back on the blog you will see a very equal amount of provoking in my opinion. That is for them to work out or not. Lastly, Patrick’s claims of name calling. Shaming you might call it. I have never addressed one of Patrick’s mentors as a neo Nazi or white supremacist who did not at one point claim that title as their own. It is simply the facts. Lastly I will remind you that years went by with Patrick criticizing the therapy we are all here to do not to mention at times ridiculing those that chose to do it. He was given the space to say whatever he wanted, he was not censored or banned. This situation has crossed lines that most feeling people would clearly recognize. I hope I have answered your questions or concerns. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – I realize this is written to Renee and I don’t want to ‘bogart’ it but I would like to make one thing clear. You say

      “I have never addressed one of Patrick’s mentors as a neo Nazi or white supremacist who did not at one point claim that title as their own. It is simply the facts.”

      Now this is simply and clearly NOT the facts. Dr Kollerstrom who have been my main avatar many times has said and I do believe him he was a member of the Green Party in England, he was involved in anti Iraq war demonstrations, he was if anything “Left Wing” not “Right Wing”………………..that why he was so shocked and amazed to be condemned as “Far Right” and neo Nazi etc etc. He is English and says over and over he is not here to promote National Socialism or whatever. His politics were/are similar to mine I have always been against “Right Wing” but this issue crosses all these divisions. As he says it is a matter of science can or were human gas chambers even a physical possibility let alone an actuality. He is clear they were not either.

      Similarly the other big influence and a ‘hero’ in getting out the truth Germar Rudolp. He is German and has constantly said he has nothing to with reviving Nazism. He says it was a feature in ‘history’ and the times are different now. In fact both have stressed NOT to confuse ‘neo nazi hankerings with the real and serious truth of history. So enough from me but I have a hard time letting stuff like this go. One little inaccuracy leads to another and another and you end up with a real dog’s dinner as we used to say. And ‘standard’ history on this matter is truly a dog’s dinner. Thank God for the likes of Kollerstrom and Rudolp for straightening some of it out a bit

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: I have just re-read your response to Renee and I had to keep going back and forth between what you were responding to what Renee had said. Maybe it is my memory that is failing me (which to some extent it is) However, one of the reason that I like using quotes and quote marks is in order to let the reader see exactly what I am referring to. For me and my flailing 🙂 (sorry failing) memory, that would be very helpful
      It is for this very reason that I wonder why I got as much flack as I did. The worst I ever consistently responded to Patrick was, by using the word “quote” and quote marks, The exception were never what he said about me or about you, but what he did to others that obviously hurt them; the other was his disparaging the therapy and/or Art Janov.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        So!!! quote:- “Ironically maybe Jack was the exception.”
        I am confused as to why that is ironic. However to be clear, I did not think it was in anyway offensive or hurt me. Just curious.

        Another:- “As for Jack and Patrick… these are two people with a long history and many feelings but I don’t see Patrick as a victim of Jacks.” It was/is my feeling that most were trying to tell me was that I deliberately and viciously trying hurt Patrick; OR perhaps actually believing that I if stopped responding to Patrick, that somehow we would get bored and leave the blog. I feel very strongly that was not the case. For Patrick, as I see and know him, that is NOT his M.O.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Last one:- “I will remind you that years went by with Patrick criticizing the therapy we are all here to do not to mention at times ridiculing those that chose to do it”. This is the major reason IMO why most became upset with Patrick’s comments. However, I felt few actually said just that. Just my feeling … I felt that I eventually became an ‘easier’ target than Patrick; BUT … I could well be wrong.

          Though, I feel some people are maybe upset by my recent comment about my insights; I do wonder why stating them is upsetting … unless they are picking up something behind them. I wish, if that was the case, they might be specific as to what it is they are picking up. Shane did to some extent, express that.

          My inability to post a long comment is a bit of a bore. Sorry if anyone finds that irritating..


          • Phil says:

            We could go back months or even years to time after time when you were poking Patrick, or whatever you are now calling it, to me, endless crazy insult filled interactions, some of which he probably provoked as well. Where you also exposed each others personal affairs in totally inappropriate ways, as I saw it.
            I guess all that is just easily forgotten. If there are “victims”, it’s the rest of us having to witness it all here on the blog. I hope there can be some kind of resolution or truce worked out between you two.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Phil: First off; it is not my ‘won’t’ to NOT respond. If that is a fault in me, so-be-it.
              I am picking something up with this last comment of yours. I will endeavor to explain exactly, and as clearly as I can, what it is I am picking up on. As I stated to Gretchen … I feel that I am an easier target than Patrick. What I mean by that is I feel anyone getting at Patrick is more than likely to get a lot of flack back and most of us do not like that, and many of us re-act with counter insults. (I am not immune to that either). I sense that most feel I am a major, if not the most major, problem.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Let me state YET AGAIN my use of the word “poke” was the same as it is used in Facebook. In other words, it is a response (not necessary pleasant) to someones comment. I never started anything with Patrick … as far as I am aware. If my memory serves me correctly I ignored Patrick’s rants towards me for many weeks, when he came onto the blog. My ignoring Patrick (as I see and know him) is:- the more I ignored him the greater became his desire to shame, insult and hurt me. I sensed that Patrick was not getting the effect he wanted, and hence made an even bigger attempt to “get at me”. If most disagree with that assessment; so-be-it.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  I am aware that most HOPE there can be some resolution between Patrick and I and I have finally decided, if he will pay for it, to have a joint session at the Institute (against my Jimbo’s wishes). However. it is my ‘prediction’ that even if there is a major reconciliation between Patrick and I; it will not stop Patrick from continuing on this blog to ‘get at the therapy’, to get at the rest of us, for not seeing it his way; as he’s been doing for months. He’s found a forum to vent his ideas. I don’t see him stopping.

                  To put it more succinctly:- if only Jack would do as we ask him to do; that would make us all more happy. To and for me … that is not what I feel will be the end result.

                  Ok Phil; hopefully you’ll see more of where I am coming from. Jack

                  • Phil says:

                    I wasn’t around on the blog when Patrick first arrived; but I’m understanding it’s quite a few years ago.
                    I think it would be helpful for you, Patrick, and the blog if there is some kind of reconciliation. It’s not that I’m expecting Patrick to quiet down or leave the blog because of this. But there would be an improvement in that there wouldn’t be the continual flare-ups between the two of you, if that is possible.
                    I have given up on Patrick some time ago as far as debating his topics or his motivations,
                    so because of that he isn’t a target for me. But you don’t represent some kind of substitute target.
                    Just speculation but his anger might have something to do with with the Institute, Janov, and the therapists. You are a loyal and successful primal adherent who knows him a long time, so I guess you are included in that. All of it having to do with lower than expected success and help from therapy, for whatever reason, no doubt also triggering historical stuff. Or maybe it’s something else entirely but it’s up to Patrick to explore and find out, or get some other kind of assistance.
                    I think everyone can see that he lacks credibility as a source so there’s little point in debating with him, except so as to satisfy and express feelings he triggers.

                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Phil: In your previous post you said, and I quote:- “If there are “victims”, it’s the rest of us having to witness it all here on the blog.” I am very aware that not only you, but others feel things would be easier for all if only I was to stop responding to Patrick.
                      Other than if he does manage to get a joint session; I will make this commitment to NOT respond to Patrick until this matter is settled one way or another. Hope that satisfies your desire on this matter. Then we can see if indeed everyone feels better.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Sorry: 6th line should have read “he” not ‘we”

  116. Renee S. says:

    Thanks for sharing your perspective, Leslie. I don’t feel that I am trying to rescue Patrick. I think I’ve shared what I feel my “dog in the fight” is and the ways that I identify with Patrick. But if I’m wrong and I am on a rescue mission, what do you think I am trying to rescue Patrick from?

  117. That sounds like a question with an agenda Renee. But maybe I am wrong. G.

  118. Renee S. says:

    Gretchen, the place I’m coming from with this question is this: often when we are trying to rescue someone it is not about the person we are trying to rescue, it is about wanting to rescue ourselves from feeling something painful. I don’t think that is going on with my messages to Patrick, but perhaps I am wrong (as I said). That is why I wanted to see what Leslie would say to this. I like and trust Leslie. However, at the same time, I think there was more going on for her behind her comments to me. But that doesn’t mean I can’t learn something from her comments. That’s all.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: I looked back on the blog and found your response to Leslie April 17 2017 @ 3:13 pm.
      Gretchen’s response to you:- dated April 17 2017 @ 3:19 pm
      You responded April 17 2017 @ 3:31 pm … back to Gretchen

      I am not sure if this was what you were referring to.


  119. Otto Codingian says:

    I had a possibly incredible insight today. too tired to write about it.

  120. Otto Codingian says:

    well it came to me as i finished buying a pack of donuts and diet pepsi from the cute latina lady in her taco truck. i walked away and said to myself, well i can’t get pain relief that way (her), so then donuts and coke. of course, it is impossible to explain now what i realized. something about my mom feeding me, as mothers do, and that being so very very important in a baby’s life. the other connected idea was that, at 10 months of age when i lost my mom, that the birth i had 10 months earlier was still fairly recent, and definitely was, i cant find the words, maybe it was still a big presence in my cells or brain or skin. still being held closely and bottle or breast-fed, not sure which, just another stage of the womb, only just outside of it. just some organic feeling like you would feel if you took acid.

  121. Otto Codingian says:

    and the other thought was, how when i laid ih the bassinette weeks or months later at my cold aunt ahd majac uncle’s house, having been ripped away from my mom at 10 months, waiting to be fed, a bottle i guess, and how that was a main connection with my mom, and how she fed me in the womb with her blood or whatever, i developed a (baby) fantasy or obsession(?) with wanting to get back ihside her womb, back to safety. and i have said that before, either in group, or on the blog, or session, about wanting to crawl back in and start over, so i think there is something to this. i started to feel this starvation 2 retreats ago. i really have an eating problem, as a means to comfort me and bring the pain down to a non-psycho level.

  122. Otto Codingian says:

    the other thing i thought was that when i reached adolescence, it was like this big change, just like the change when i was ripped away from my mom. i think i was triggered by my terror at 10 months, now at age 13. i became obsessed with sex (maybe a little more than normal boys), and because i was unable to get back to my mom at 10 months, i was now afraid of girls, or shied away from them as a budding teen. also playing into that, i was almost getting back to normal in the 5th grade, after a traumatic move 2 years earlier, but now possibly even flirting with a girl, but instead of going to the 6th grade summer camp and 6th grade in the fall, i found myself in millitary school (really big change) where the only females were old and vicious. well anyway, something like that. didnt get sex till 24, what a nightmare for years that was, no touching of girls at a time my body said i should be touching girls. just fantasies, no kiss, only a few dates that i had no idea what to do with. pain pain pain twinkies and other hostess pain killers. and then drugs and booze.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I not sure if anyone else feels the same as I do BUT I feel you are making great progress, especially these last few comments of yours.
      I wish you well.
      I just wonder, have you ever thought of giving up the junk food Just curious.

      In my own case giving up smoking was one major one for me and when I finally did I had nightmares about it for over a year. My other one was sex addiction and that took way more time.

      Old habits die hard … as the saying goes.


    • Phil says:

      I can so relate to what you wrote here. Middle School and High School were terrible years for me, and when I started with college. I didn’t ever go to any school social events. I was so shy and couldn’t talk to any girls, and I didn’t. I was too afraid and that pretty much continued and was why I entered therapy at age 21. I thought I’d never be able to go on dates or have a girlfriend. Maybe true if I never started with this therapy.
      All of this was caused by the loss of my mother, and also how she treated me while she was around, the short time I had her and the fact that I never got any adequate mother replacement. And you had your mother an even shorter time.

  123. Otto Codingian says:

    this insight followed on the heels of me screaming my anguish in group about the impossibilty of me and girls for so many long hard years, adolescence and later. i left out the part where i had a little 3rd grade girlfriend, and as said above, a traumatic move that tore me away from her. listen buddy, i think those dice were rigged! get another pair and roll again!

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, it does look like you got snake eyes, the double whammy. Military school must have been awful without the comfort of family. Probably are many feelings from then I would think. Good for you for having the insights. Looks like breakthroughs for you.

  124. Renee S. says:

    Thank you, Shane, for allowing Barry to post your message on this blog. I was so moved by your heartfelt and pain-filled words. Your brutal honesty and vulnerability was like a breath of fresh air.

  125. Patrick says:

    This is a ‘joke’ ok please don’t take this that serious but it occurs to me this guy Alex Jones makes millions from doing this. The guy he is referring to is Adam Schiff a Democrat Congressman from California who was/is in charge of this business about Russia hacking the election. It reminds me also when I came to therapy there was a guy running a ‘business’ where he would call and scream at someone if he was paid to do it. He was a primal guy Irish background but American if I remember correctly

  126. Shane says:

    Thank you all for your kind comments, insights and affecting responses to my letter to Barry about the worst Pain I have ever felt.

    When I say; “It is the worst.” I speak from 30 years of experience in Primal Therapy and I am not just “caught up in the feeling.” This was definitely the worst feeling I have yet felt.

    I believe that is specific and personal to me.

    My identity, my sense of self-worth, has always been deeply tied to being “good” and a “nice person.”

    For someone else, that may just “be bullshit.” And that would be totally accurate. Why should anyone else feel the way I do?

    Worst feeling ever? “Not for me!”

    What lies at the deepest levels of Pain for anyone, will be unique to them, unique to their journey, what they have been through, how they coped.

    For me, I needed to be a “good boy” in the worst way.

    If I’m not a “good boy” I’m fucked. Doomed.

    I don’t even know what “fucked” or “doomed” means. I just know in my heart of hearts it’s really bad and I don’t want to go there.

    And if it’s anything like where I’ve been, I don’t want to go there.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Shane: Great comment about yourself.
      I liked best:- “For someone else, that may just “be bullshit.” And that would be totally accurate. Why should anyone else feel the way I do?” Why indeed?


  127. Phil says:

    I’m glad you’ve come on to the blog. That is terrible stuff you’ve shared about in your letter, and I can see why you would say it’s the worst pain you’ve ever felt. I’m glad it’s come out so that you’re dealing with it. This therapy is such a difficult and painful process, isn’t it?

  128. Margaret says:

    seems like breakthrouhgs indeed.
    what you wrote about the skin touch and the comparison with an acid trip made sense to me.
    it seems like a difference between being wide open and letting the world in compared to dulled hopeless being more closed down in an attempt to cope with the pain of changed reality
    it seems like you might be regaining some of your awareness

  129. Hey Jack, When I said “ironically Jack might be the exception” I meant that despite the fact that there have been problems between you and Patrick that you were one of a very few who did not request that Patrick take a break from the blog. I do agree with much of what you have written. I don’t think Patrick would have left whether you said anything to him or not. I also noted that you often respond to people ( if not always) by putting the relevant comment in quotes. I know that Patrick seemed to feel you were baiting him by doing that but you did do that as a matter of course with almost everyone. Are you an easier target then Patrick? Well, I do hope that neither of you are a target at all but yes there is truth in that. I know that several people have been afraid of the way in which Patrick can attack in such a personal way when confronted. Ultimately we are all responsible for our own choices so no I don’t think it is you that created the problem with Patrick or that he would have behaved differently if you were not here. That being said…….. ( ha ! there is always a caveat ) . I went back and looked at previous comments and I would say there were times you seemed to be wanting a reaction. I would also say that it seemed Patrick was addressing you first more often then not. But that is where it gets a little crazy. We don’t want to be figuring out who hurt who more often. I know you feel that Patrick started the problems by attacking you on the blog to begin with. Okay but maybe we have to let that go and examine what feelings are being triggered now. I imagine that as much as you believe in this therapy that it has to be difficult to hear the constant criticisms. Maybe that’s the issue, I don’t know. Or maybe it has something to do with a comment you made about being overlooked at the job when Patrick left ( if I understood correctly). The other possibility is maybe you just don’t like him. That does happen of course. So my point is that while I agree with much of what you have written I do think there are some feelings to explore. I trust that you will decide if that is true or not. The last thing I would say is it might be worth exploring if it hurt your feelings to get all of that feedback at once. Some of it was harsh possibly and clearly you felt some of it was an unfair characterization. If that is the case I think that’s all you need to say. Gretchen

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen I am so happy that you took the trouble to answer me. I did have an agenda in doing so. It was that after so many responses to me; suggesting that I ought to do as they felt fit. I began to feel I did not trust most of them and so I turned to you since I trust you implicitly. I worked hard and thought about each, before responding. I tried hard to be clear as I knew how; but I eventually began to realize I was in a struggle to get my perspective across … not a struggle with Patrick … of that I was certain.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        So this response of yours gave me a lot to think about and some sense that I was NOT losing it. I do, as of this writing, don’t dislike Patrick entirely. I just see him as a lost and sad person. I find him resenting me because he saw me as a fanatic towards the therapy, whilst he had started to have great reservations about it … climaxing eventually (as I saw it) feeling he could make this therapy better and more efficient. I saw that as his blind arrogance. On the matter of him not letting me on the new ownership in hindsight I am pleased about that since I feel that would have given me more headaches than I wished for. I sort of subliminally felt that at the time.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          As you may have noted from my last response to Phil; I have decided tho completely refrain from responding to Patrick until such times as there is some resolution to it all, however that may come about. So Gretchen; thanks again and I will re-read your response several times more. Hoping I see a little more about myself.


          • Jack Waddington says:

            Gretchen: I have re-read your comment to me three more time after thinking a great deal about it for most of the evening after going to bed. As of this moment the major problem I had was:- in struggling to get my ‘perception’ across. However, the possibility that I was hurt by the barrage of comments is a huge possibility and I will endeavor to look further into that. (I did not see them as attacks, as I did recognize they were trying to help me … but also with their agenda). So for the moment I will continue to explore other feelings going on with me.
            Reason: that’s Therapy.


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Gretchen: I have read your response to me two more times, and I suddenly realized that in the last two senteces you wrote:- “Some of it was harsh possibly and clearly you felt some of it was an unfair characterization. If that is the case I think that’s all you need to say. Gretchen”
              I agree … that is exactly what I should have done So!!! I will do it now
              Renee, Shane, Margaret, Larry and Phil: “I thought you all were very unfair, and further somwhat unjust.


            • Larry says:

              I can understand how you might feel that way Jack, and if you don’t want feedback from me then I will shut my mouth as I usually do. However you have in the past invited people to share with you their insights of you that might be helpful to you. So if you think my offering to you was off the mark, then I’m not going to argue with that.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Larry: I appreciate that you understand how I might feel. I do appreciate all the feedback I get and I am NOT suggesting that you stop. However, you suggesting I was:- “Harassing such a person is perverse, in my opinion.” did strike me as odd, since I feel “Perverse” has sexual connotations. In hindsight I feel it was somewhat harsh. That is all Larry.


                • Erron says:

                  And as I said at the time Jack, perverse was an excellent usage of the word. You are so fond of telling us all it is “just our feeling”. On this occasion your reaction to the use of an inert but descriptive English word is a perfect example of it being “just YOUR feeling”.

                • Larry says:

                  That is interesting Jack. To me “perverse” doesn’t necessarily have sexual connotations and wasn’t in my thinking when I wrote it.

                  Once in group I felt that a bunch of people piled up on me unfairly and unjustly, though in reality they probably weren’t being as severe as I felt they were. I decided not to argue with them about it, but decided to assume they were trying to be helpful though it felt hurtful, and wondered why they misunderstood me and what they were picking up on. Now, many primals and evolutions later, I think what they were reacting to is that I am so busy just trying to emotionally survive and meet my needs that I have little energy or emotional space left for people, especially when I’m in groups. Them telling me what they did, didn’t do me much good at the time, except piss me off and hurt me. But I also felt they must care about me enough to tell me there was something about me that frustrated them, as if they wanted me to be less needy afraid me and more confident me, if that makes sense.

  130. Gretchen: “Ultimately we are all responsible for our own choices…” strikes me as a statement riddled with far too many flaws for me to comprehensively discuss during my lifetime. Otherwise, have fun with Jack!

  131. Leslie says:

    Hi Renee,
    I too enjoyed our times and connection last summer!
    I said I see you on a rescue mission for Patrick as after so much time, so many utterly disgusting
    & hateful posts, repeated attempts to reach him out of concern for his own safety and sanity, numerous requests to stop posting his degenerate heroes’ quotes and videos – Patrick would not/could not stop posting on the blog.
    Gretchen was forced by so many peoples’ and her own concerns to finally ban him – and this is when you swoop in – that you can reach him…
    You suggest that you relate to his struggles – but here is the big difference Renee – you have chosen and choose to do what you can with therapy. You appear motivated to get better. And that is what I see with most of the people, including myself in being here.
    Patrick on the other hand proclaims he is ‘the best’ already. Patrick truly gets off on continually putting everyone here except you perhaps – for now that is – down.
    Patrick makes horrid anti – Semitic, racist, homophobic, misogynistic remarks and then exclaims how that that is not who he is. Unfortunately, that is exactly who he is and hence a ban to establish the boundaries that he lacks is necessary.

  132. Renee S. says:

    Hi Leslie, my favorite buddy of all time. I don’t think you realize that I am in full agreement with what you say about many of Patrick’s posts being abusive, violent, hateful and horrific. And I don’t think you remember, but I have also called for Patrick to take an enforced break, since he has been unable to take a voluntary break.
    I just have not agreed with Gretchen’s ways of trying to address this problem and believe that that could be why this has continued for so long. I would like to respond to Gretchen’s last message to me, because it helped me to get clearer on specifically what I disagreed with. Unfortunately, I cannot find it. Perhaps it got deleted or I missed it and am just too tired to look for it for the fourth time. If it did get deleted, I hope it gets re-posted.
    You assume that I am different from Patrick because I seem motivated to get better and Patrick doesn’t. I don’t share this assumption about Patrick. I assume that Patrick is not in control when he blows up. Also, I remember all too well the assumptions that were made about me in my early years of therapy at the Institute when I was not in control of my behavior and words. It actually felt very scary, even though I could not articulate that feeling at the time. And I remember frequently being responded to angrily, dismissed, judged as not wanting to get help, written off, and othered. When I see this happening to someone else and I don’t speak up (which happens sometimes), I feel awful about myself. So maybe what you interpret as me rescuing Patrick,is really just me rescuing myself from feeling awful. One more thing……I think that if we grew up with a parent or sibling that was abusive and violent, that will shape, to some degree, our reactions to Patrick.

    • Vicki B. says:

      Renee, her replies to you are above, you should be able to search for “April 17, 2017 at 2:20 pm”, for the long one, or “April 17, 2017 at 3:19 pm” for the short one, which you did respond to already.

  133. Leslie says:

    Thanks for your reply Renee. I am relieved to hear you also see Patrick’s posts as “abusive, violent, hateful & horrific.”
    Patrick is not a new patient however – he has had years to become conscious of what he projects. Gretchen worked with him privately and protectively – not just on the blog. Gretchen would have provided expert healthy guidance and care – from all angles before making the decisions she has.
    You still see hope for him – I don’t – as although I have seen miracles happen when people strive to get well – not so much when they refuse.

    • Phil says:

      A good goal would have been just to get Patrick to use the blog in a more normal way, different than the way that he does, so that it can be more useful for the rest of us. All of us have struggled with him at one point or another on this point and/or have been a victim of his abusiveness.
      As far as I know Patrick isn’t even in therapy or want it, so it’s hard for me to see where your expectations for Gretchen are coming from.
      He does get a lot of attention, which is probably what it is about, and now he’s been getting from you, when , in theory, he’s not supposed to be on here.


  134. Vicki B. says:

    I just caught up with everything here.

    Jack, you keep saying that it wouldn’t make a difference to Patrick’s being here, and you are correct, but it would make a difference to me, because you and he have been fighting for years, and I am tired of seeing you-and-him, back-and-forth, all the time. I find your “pleasure” to be a pain. It feels bad, like the hopelessness of my childhood family life, recreated. A lot of angry bitterness, but not always what I feel or want to communicate. But here it often has felt like I am having to take a bath in it.

    Erron said, “Jack, it has to be asked: why do you want Patrick on this blog? He has been banned and yet you continually bait him and invite him to come back and participate.” and you replied “Erron: I am not absolutely sure why I continue to bait Patrick. …” so please think about that, when you are able.

    Overall, I found I did not like the incredible crap that Patrick has again been slinging, insulting Leslie, Jack, Gretchen & Chris by just vomiting anger on all of them, telling Gretchen to shut up, etc. The following day Patrick lied that the only reason he was banned was for calling the Holocaust a hoax, when there were so much other bullying, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, toxic insults, insane rants, abusive personal attacks, and chronically dishonest and evasive posts — consistently for several years. The thing he said later that struck me the most was this:

    “One thing I agree with Jack when he says he thinks I am not ‘homophobic’ but that my gay bashing type of comments were just thrown out just to hurt and shame him. It comes back I suppose to my ‘blowing up’ problem and like I began to say to Renee that has so many aspects and is deep in me. For me it is a matter of survival if someone or something is hurting me first off I feel I have to ‘defend’ myself and that is/can be a mighty effort and struggle in itself but then (in my mind) to ‘prevent’ and make sure it does not happen again or worse over and over again I have to go on the attack and really give the person a black eye.”

    That is such a primitive, characteristic response for him, the exploding with adrenaline in the field to beat up the other guys so they never challenged him again. It seems all he “knows how to do” automatically, for any and every hurt. Every single time he is hurt, he is totally unable to consider if what the person said is true, and just strikes back in the most hurtful way he has at hand. No self-reflection, at all.

    Again, I cannot come to any other beneficial conclusion than banning him, although I’m not sure if it’s possible, since he is not willing to respect any one here, and just bullies his way back. Maybe venting insanely here is less painful for him than having it swirl inside him in isolation.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: I agree with a lot you say here BUT I have some reservations about others.
      I did omit to add your name also to the ones I stated I thought were “being unfair to me and unjust”

      I don’t agree that I am fighting Patrick. I know better than to try that. Poking don’ see as fighting.

      Meantime I have made a commitment to Phil to NOT respond to Patrick until the matter of him is settled. You may not have caught up with that post of mine.

      Lastly: I didn’t say I want Patrick on the blog. I don’t care if he is or isn’t. I did say many moons ago that if he left I would miss responding to him. That has now changed. Like you I do feel he needs this forum for whatever his reasons are.

      I felt you made it very clear (good for you) that it triggered your childhood.


  135. Margaret says:

    for weeks now I have been in some kind of battle with a new employee from the social services who walked in with a filled in form about me, rating me on some scale about being selfsufficient for daily chores etc.
    she rated me as almost entirely able to do anything, including freely moving around the city, which is ridiculous, without help in some cases.
    to start with her rating is more than half of two other official ratings I have on another but equivalent scale, done by the medical control doctor of the social services, and by another official instance separately.
    on top of it she demands me to sign the forms with her rating on it, threatening to block all the assistance I get.

    i told her to begin with she does not know me at all and walks in with an already filled in form, only willing to change one item about the obility only one tiny oint from zero to 1..
    our discussions go from bad to worse lately, I told her yesterday on the phone it feels like an enormous invasion of my privacy to yet again have to be rated unnecessarily by someone who in theory could use the other rating of her own social services to which she belongs.

    on the internet we found a blog with faq about this kind of thing, indeed complaining about this situation in which the same instances work with different ratings and strongly different scores within their own services

    she said if I sign it would not have consequences in the future, but I said how can I rely on that, then why do I have to sign at all, while I don’t even agree with what is on the paper?
    then she made the threat I might lose my support as they are government subsidized.

    it is so very frustrating, on the one hand when I tell her about the rating of the control doctor of her own services, she says she is not allowed to look into that information, and on the other hand she wants to label me and have me sign it without hardly knowing anything about me, with the risk of financial or other consequences.

    I refused to further discuss it at this point, asked her to mail me the rating forms so I could read them, and then I would contact her.
    have not yet received them, but it still feels like such an invasion of my personal privacy to have to defend on the rating of some topics of self reliance with this stranger that wants to force me to sign a rating that is less than half the value of my other ratings.

    I laid awake about it last night, feeling the intrusion, anger, frustration, fear and hummiliation of the situation.

    finally I managed to ease myself down enough to fall asleep, and had a couple of fine dreams, with loving interested guys at first, and then a second very special dream in which I danced with my dad.

    a gracious dance, just holding both our hands, dad leading calmly the moves which did not belong to any special style, but it felt so very harmonious and connective.

    I feel so privileged to have a second dream like this in just a few weeks, where my dad is there to comfort and reassure me and to ease my mind.

    I know it is my own mind coming up with this, but that too feels so good.
    feel teary now…

  136. Phil says:

    Sounds scary if this new employee is threatening your assistance and benefits. I hope there’s a way to bypass her or make a complaint.


  137. Margaret says:

    thanks Larry, Guru and Phil, your support brought tears to my eyes.
    I feel so vulnerable and have a migraine today, certainly due to the argument I had with her over the phone yesterday.
    I have someone from another ‘Assisted Living’ agency that visits me once week, who is looking into this and informing herself with the medical insurance I have, and trying to find out ways to settle all of this without too much damage and possibly other options for assistance.
    but I need to be careful as the instances that dragon woman works for are the general town instances and cover many different services.
    it is especially humiliating to be forced to sign papers about oneself one does not agree with, and simply to be labelled once more by someone who does not even know me really, I saw her twice.

    it crossed my mind to file a complaint or to contact her supervisor, but my hopes it will help are very small, as she says she discussed it a number of times with her supervisor already.
    it is a bureaucratic tangle as she needs signed forms to send to the Ministry of social services etc., ha…
    the problem is she refuses to really change her score much and I feel it as too humiliating to discuss with her about every single item.

    also the energy is starting to lack me especially with the migraine it already gave me.

    still glad though I do have a few people to share this with, and someone over here trying to help me.

    thanks guys, your feedback helps me to feel the sadness instead of only tension.

    • Erron says:

      Margaret, I totally agree with what others have said here. She is a complete bully. Certainly I hope you find a way to stand up to her and overcome this.

  138. Jack Waddington says:

    Ever since getting that response from Gretchen I have been imersed in feelings. Last night in bed I started with these mini convultions again, as I call them, and it went on for more than an hour. I thought to call my buddy; Chris, but didn’t. Not sure why. My whole body feels upside down and I feel I’m on the verge of screaming.

    My Jimbo is leaving for a trip to Europe, The Netherlands to see if he can find a house somewhere in the south near the Belgian border. Meantime, My nephew and his wife are going to be here to take care on me. I am going to miss him and know he’ll miss me. He’ll be gone for 6 weeks.

    Oh! Geesus. I feel I’m on the verge of screaming right now. I’ve instructed Jim to just let do it; but he keeps pleading that I don’t; in friendly sort of way.

    Can it be that finally I’m going to have to revisit that feeling I had in the London Clinic now more than 50 years ago. Dunno as of now.


    • Phil says:

      It sounds like you got a lot going on. I hope you can some get relief from those feelings soon.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Yeah!!! Phil: Even as I write I feel I’m right in it now.

        I’ve done enough therapy to let it all take it’s own good time … but that feeling is so fucking scary.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          I have still been in this feeling and now I feel this weird feeling my head will fall off. I told Jim and so he held my head against his abdomen and that felt very comforting.

          I decided to go and lie down on my bed for a while and now I feel a little better. It’s still all there and I know I am going to have to feel more … but for now; I’ll rest for a while.

          Vicki: Phil was quite right. It was my suggestion to Phil


  139. Leslie says:

    Margaret – that sounds so terrible to be treated that way. So glad you did not sign! I have heard of it – whereby agencies try to cut back by falsifying improvement &/or implementing a ‘new’ grading system to then streamline. You have to hang tough – as you did/are. The anxiety & stress that it causes while you wait, do what you can, and get bounced around is awful though I am sure!!
    Please keep us posted.

  140. Margaret says:

    Erron, Leslie,
    the thing is she seems mostly someone stuck in wanting to do her job perfectly in the sense of filling in forms to the letter in a rigid way.
    and Leslie, it passed my mind as well this might be part of a general guideline to cut down expenses.
    recently here they also passed a law about long term sick people being obliged to try and work again. that is awful under the circumstnces loads of young and older healthy people do not work.
    I don’t think they will come to me to work which I would not mind if it would be a good job really.
    two years ago I did apply for some kind of unpaid part time working but that person who had to manage my application simply fucked up completely and dropped out of her job herself without doing anything, without letting me know so I could have gone to another instance, and then she went on sick leave herself.

    Kafka on all levels of bureaucracy
    it is scary and stressful though.

  141. Margaret says:

    it sounds like very early stuff breaking to the surface.

    it must be hard to deal with as it is so physical and probably hard to experience in a normal awake state of mind.

    it reminds me of a dream I once had, being in some kind of rollercoaster and suddenly drop out, dangling only by my ankles, and being absolutely terrified as I was very aware of being in a dangerous position with my head being extremely vulnerable if falling.
    those words of course are merely a description of what I felt, but it was very clear.
    I remember in that dream looking ‘up’ to my belly and seeing a mass of blood and stuff, right, umbilical cord remains?

    it is a common thing they do or did, to hold up newborns by their ankles, and even then to slap them on the butt to make them cry etc.

    primal experience opens such a new view on al those things, and I hope so strongly that view gets more spread, talked about and published about!
    yes, hint for mr. B, smiley…

    but on a personal level, it is awful that kind of terror is what is inflicted on babies as one of their first experiences out in the world, together with a cutting of the umbilical cord way too soon, before all the blood and reserves get pumped by the placenta into the newborn child…

    and in my case I suspect the nuns put me in a crib in another room and only brought me to my mom for a feed on their schedule, until she went home again.

    my poor brother was getting extremely thin as my mom followed some advice about feedings they gave her when he was born, until someone reassured her she should follow her own instincts and feed that little boy as much as he wanted…

    all that unnecessary stress and pain and need inflicted on babies, so sad and crazy in a way..

  142. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi Everybody: Well! after still being in the feelings all the way until mid-night. I was finally able to go to sleep and slept very well right through till this morning. It helped enormously for Chris sitting for me yesterday afternoon and felt a lot of it … but I was not totally through with it. Thanks Chris … It’s all birth stuff but it’s feelable.

    I know there is more of it and that’s OK and for right now I am in a good space. Had my breakfast; sat in the sun for a while and now to my emails and coffee. Jim’s just got up and put the coffee machine on. So now I’ll see how the rest of you are doing.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: Yep!! very disorienting while I was in it. The only thing that did occur to me was that it went on for so long. I can only think it must have been because I wasn’t getting all the way into it.

      Margaret: You are right and until the advent of Frederick LeBoyer, all that stupid stuff was done. Birth should not be a ‘medical problem’ But as I said, the insights tell me it was all birth stuff. Just happy for now that I am getting some respite. Thanks for yours and Larry’s responses.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        One more thing: Not sure if this is an insight or what; BUT why is “screaming” seen as unnatural? Little kids in the play ground scream with delight as they play. In Ibiza I was known among all the other hippies as “screaming Jack”. Not sure if I was actually screaming or just proselytizing about Primal Therapy.

        Also: when I feel pain I scream … much to the chagrin of my Jimbo. He never screams. I sometimes wish he would. He does have pain in his abdomen after the gall bladder surgery, which apparently hurts like crazy.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          What triggered all these feelings? First was Gretchen’s remark after sazying”That being said…….. ( ha ! there is always a caveat )”. The other thing is perhaps being a little anxcious about my Jimbo’s trip and missing him. Another might be the feeling of:- “It being unfair and unjust”.

          Whatever it was, doesn’t really matter. What was more important was I did stop to think more of Gretchen’s suggestion that there were more feelings going on, that I should think about. I did contemplate that and got into these feelings.


    • Chris P says:

      Jack you’re welcome and I will sit for you anytime. Those were some very powerful feelings and they were affecting me as I was sitting for you; especially the feeling related to your head, holding it up and feeling disoriented, afraid that it was going to come off. Wow, even writing here now triggers that.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Chris: Yes it was, but sadly in one respect this was NOT my “Primal Scene”. It seems that will come later … I suspect … the feeling of dying and screaming it outta my body. It feels I’m doing everything backwards. All I can say to that is; the worst comes last.

        Meantime, Christ:- I too will sit for you anytime you need it. Great buddying between us yeah????


  143. Renee S. says:

    Thanks, Vicki, for your help in finding the specific message I was looking for. I found it. I don’t know about others, but when I go to my blog “Entries” they do not come up in an orderly, chronological order. Very strange.

    Leslie, it seems that you are cutting me some slack because I was a new patient when I was out of control. Actually, to be fully honest, my crazy, out of control behavior continued for at least 10 years. But I’m not sure that really matters. I believe that growth in therapy rarely happens in a linear way……kind of like the way my ‘entries’ are showing up on this blog!
    Btw, you are right, I do see hope for Patrick. I don’t write him off and assume that he doesn’t want help because he gets lost and caught up in his inappropriate and hostile messages and cannot stop himself. I just think he needs something different to what he has been getting on this blog. In my next message, in my response to Gretchen’s message to me, I will share what I think would make more of a difference and be more helpful for both Patrick and us blog readers.
    Hopefully, my next message will also address your comments to me, Phil.

    • Larry says:

      Personally, I feel that by suggesting that Patrick take a reprieve from this blog Gretchen his helping him, in effect nudging him out of the rut he sank into deeper and deeper in his struggles with everyone here. People felt compelled to confront his evermore crazy, provocative rants, over and over got caught up in hopeless fruitless evermore toxic struggles with him, which is what he neurotically needed and we were all trapped in providing, it seems to me. One way it could be stopped is by no one reacting to him. He solved that by baiting with evermore outrageous posts that could not be ignored.

      After many years of trying to reach out to him and be helpful but the atmosphere continually deteriorating, the only way the massive, deepening struggle could be stopped, it seems to me, for the health of all including Patrick, is to ask him to take a reprieve from the blog.

      For his sake I hope a breather from the blog will help him take a different, more constructive look at his life. My feeling though is that it would be very, very difficult for him to do.

  144. Leslie says:

    Hi Renee,
    I would so much rather hear about you and how you are – honestly!
    Although, we got to know each other more last summer I knew you from a number of retreats/ groups.
    I do not see how you think your behaviour, resistance etc. was like Patrick’s.
    Yes, underlying pain of course and all 3 of us can commiserate on trust issues for instance.
    However, please review the years of his harassment here on the primal institute blog – which is not therapy but a collaborative feeling space with the safety net of Gretchen’s monitoring.
    Just saying…

    • Jo says:

      Leslie, that was well said, and I agree.
      Renee, from my position, having felt all the harassment of his posts, I do not want to see anything more that may incite engagement with him. There’s been so much that has made me feel unsafe. Gretchen has addressed personal abuse, tried on every level to help him, (as have many individuals here) and protected us and so much more, in an exemplary way.
      You feel you can help Patrick, perhaps you can write to him privately..
      I also would much rather hear about you personally.

      • Patrick says:

        Yeah! What a horrid awful man! And we don’t need him around disturbing our ‘tea parties’ Good riddance I say he is just not ‘civilized’ like we are

  145. Otto Codingian says:

    well i held it in all week, mom, can i let it go now. ok,thanks. weep weep

  146. Otto Codingian says:

    held it in to push myself to my boring long-hours job. one more week, now one more week closer to the fucking end. crap. lonely empty existence

  147. Patrick says:

    Just to let people know I am still alive (and kicking lol and still disturbing ‘tea parties’). This from a guy called Jonas Alexis I have to say I agree………………I heard something a bit odd while on this subject. 4 million Jews lived in the whole area that was controlled by Nazi Germany during the war (mostly Poland, Russia and Hungary) anyway 4 million ok but out of those 6 million died and strangely enough 5 million more showed up as ‘survivors’ to be compensated and they were. I added that both Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon are Israeli writers. Which kind of makes the point that Jews or Israelis if they are brave and have some integrity ARE capable of stepping out from under some of this. What I have not seen from Gretchen which is disappointing to me. Here is supposed to be some kind of leader instead what we have is hide bound following and and the worst kind of ‘name calling’

    “Ivanka (Trump’s daughter) has to make a pilgrimage to the only sacred place in the universe. Why? Well, because the Holocaust, as Israel Shamir (an Israeli writer) points out, “replaces Christ with Israel, Golgotha with Auschwitz, and the Resurrection with the creation of the Jewish state.”[2] Gilad Atzmon (an Israeli writer) likewise declares: “To a certain extent, we are all subject to [the Holocaust] religion; some of us are worshipers, others are just subject to its power.” The Atlantic declared last year that “Ivanka joined a distinctive Jewish world” in 2009,[3] so she obviously has to go all the way.

    Charles Krauthammer has also acknowledged that “it has become increasingly common for American Jews to locate their identity in the Holocaust.”[4] For Krauthammer, “the Holocaust forms an ineradicable element of my own Jewish consciousness.”[5] For this reason, Krauthammer tells us that everyone ought to know about the Holocaust:

    “We must of course remain dedicated to keeping alive the memory and the truth of the Holocaust, particularly when they are under assault from so many quarters. Which is why, though I initially opposed having a Holocaust museum as the sole representation of the Jewish experience in the center of Washington, I came to see the virtue of having so sacred yet vulnerable a legacy placed at the monumental core of — and thus entrusted to the protection of — the most tolerant and open nation on earth.”[6]

    Is that really fair? Krauthammer understands that there is something called double standard, but he cannot apply a consistent standard because the so-called Holocaust morally and intellectually cripples him. For example, he knows that more than forty million people were executed by the Bolshevik or Stalinist regime. He knows that the regime was overwhelmingly Jewish, and he knows that there has not been a single museum in the Western world dedicated to those people. But Krauthammer and the rest are telling us all that “the Holocaust” is unique.

    Moreover, Krauthammer and his brethren know that there is a Holocaust going on in the Middle East, particularly in Gaza. But that again is immaterial because, as the late Ovadiah Yosef told us, the Goyim are just donkeys or jackasses whose existential purpose is to serve The Chosen. Even the LA Times has recently reported: “Civilian casualties from airstrikes grow in Iraq and Syria. But few are ever investigated.”[7]

  148. Patrick says:

    I sort of realize now me challenging the ‘holocaust’ in terms of it’s actuality or factual truth or whatever misses the point……………..it’s ‘factual’ in much the same way and I saw this watching “The Ten Commandments” with Charlon Heston last weekend as a ‘wall of fire’ coming down from Heaven to protect the Jews and then the parting of an ocean to also protect them. Just a ‘myth’ which is ok it’s just I wished someone told me the ‘holocaust’ was another one of those and I could have saved myself some time. But what’s weird and confusing is this insistence that it is all ‘true’ but worse you cannot even ask a question or two about it it is literally off limits to any rational investigation. And if you do you will be called all kinds of names cue Gretchen list she dedicated to me. I imagine Renee is approaching this from the point of view of effective therapy or not I will leave that up to her i am trying to concentrate of some of the more ‘real world’ aspects

  149. Renee S. says:

    Effective therapy? How so? Looks like you couldn’t stop yourself from blowing up again. What happened?

    • Patrick says:

      What is ‘blowing up’ about this. This is a ‘myth’ that plenty of people are in jail for ‘doubting’ and here it can and has got me ‘banned’ who it ‘blowing up’ what exactly. You seem like a person with some integrity you might follow the example of Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon both Israeli Jews.. Why do ‘primal people’ have to lag so far behind despite all their pretensions…………….talk a good game but don’t play particularly a good game…………..

  150. Vicki says:

    Ah! So, “new” posts from Patrick! But having read them, it’s clear they are really no different in essence from all the umpteen others he’s posted for two or three years. He just keeps repeating different versions of the same messages that we have all been disbelieving and rejecting, since the beginning. Why would someone keep on coming here to barf the same garbage, over and over? Wasn’t one barfing more than enough, to get his message across? Seriously, since we really read the messages the first time, but found them the products of a disturbed person, at best.

    No intelligent and sane person would keep doing this — he must still delude himself that MIRACULOUSLY, someone here will start believing as he does, and thank him for rescuing us from the error of our ways — rescue us from the actual Primal Therapy, that he abandoned in anger. Rather than believing that if 24 or more people have consistently been telling him for over two years that his messages are insane and he needs help, they might be right. No he just wants to keep saying, “The earth is flat, and the moon is made of green cheese, and you are all wrong, and I can’t stand it that you don’t believe me, so I feel I need to keep saying it, no matter how much of a boring, broken record I have become.” Or how truly insane he has become, by embodying anger.

    • Patrick says:

      OK Renee – but nowhere do you confront the ‘mystery’ of the out of 4 millions comes 6 million gone (minus) and yet 5 more million show up for the money. If that is ‘insane’ or ‘crazy’ or whatever i would like you to explain it. And just because I ‘repeat’ something and I know for a fact this issue has only been for about 18 months and not all the time many other subjects I have touched on…………………anyway so what if I ‘repeat’ this place has written the book on ‘repeating’ that’s mostly what I see here and don’t people go to ‘repeats’ every year

    • Patrick says:

      ” products of a disturbed person, at best……………..isn’t this the kind of mindset which led to the abuses in Soviet Russia and I trust you read above who was very involved in all that. ‘Psychologize’ away awkward facts, put the onus back on the person, tell them they are ‘crazy’ and you got pills or something worse for them. This an old script and should be very discredited by now but I understand the old thing if you don’t know history you are liable to repeat it. That word again

      • Patrick says:

        Renee – I owe you a big apology. The post above that I sent those two replies were I thought was written by you now I see was done by Vicki. I guess the tone of it really rubbed me the wrong way and really was very disappointing to me in that it employed all the usual name calling and really nonsensical ‘logic’ Anyway sorry and I don’t kid myself or expect you to ‘agree’ with or anything but it was a bit of a shock to read this and think ir was you. Anyway again sorry and I will be a bit more careful in the future. I was rushing out and wasn’t careful

  151. Otto Codingian says:

    Guru, thanks for those scenes from the Jerk. i gotta watch that again, so good.

  152. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I’m working on confronting a different ‘mystery’, which is why you need us ‘primal people’ to feel over and over again what you have been made to feel—–bullied and demonized. Any ideas?

  153. Margaret says:

    yesterday in a very nice phone buddy session, I was surprised at how emotional I became while talking about those dreams about my dad, the first just being with him and the second dream dancing with him gently leading me around, and how connecting and harmonious it had felt.
    the crying I did was nice in a way, as it felt like crying about the happy relief in a feeling of resolution and making peace.
    again I feel the surge of that emotion while writing.
    it feels like I distilled the gentle core of my dad out of the surface of pain he was in as well, and we met in that fabulous dream and danced.
    wow feel like crying again.M

  154. Margaret says:

    now the crying was more about grieving the pain and lack of connection that did exist in my childhood.
    all that pain and need caused by other pain and need in the former generations..
    still I feel so grateful for the feeling me and my dad really did meet at last..

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, in my dreams my mom doesn’t have dementia and my father isn’t sick;. he gets better because that was how he always thought–with hope. It feels so good to think they are happy and well in the dream. My mind helps make things the way they should have been and I feel grateful to see them in the dream.

  155. Otto Codingian says:

    beautiful sunny southern california day. hopefully not too hot. people in their cars heading out to have fun fun fun. latins at the park setting up their picnics to have fun fun fun. me coming home from park to dismal empty dirty quiet house to stew in my aloneness. screamed hard yesterday at pi about the cats and dogs that i lost the past 2 years. empty house reminds me of one of my grand-uncle’s house, when he was still alive. baseball on the radio and whiskey bottle on the table.

  156. Otto Codingian says:

    my sundays in a lot of my childhood consisted of going to church, doing some singing with all the kids about Jesus. sang for years with those kids and never got to know a one of them. later off to the cemetery with gramma and brother to “see” our mother and father. gramma did not have any interesting stories to tell about my mom and dad, just her silent grief came from every pore in her body. i dont feel like writing details. i could, i suppose i could make an interestijng story but i dont have the will. after cemetery, heard kids playing basketball in their back yards behind the cemetery hedges. maybe go to the cafeteria in pasadena with my old grand-uncle (another one) and my aunt, gramma, and brother. my uncle was quiet and reserved. my aunt and gramma, twins who did not look like each other jabbering away critically about anyone they could think of. and they would not even allow the windows to be down to at least let the beautiful wind inside the big buick car that my uncle loved to drive.

  157. Otto Codingian says:

    we used to take our kids to the park when they were young, on a saturday or sunday. that is long gone, although my wife and son still do that kind of stuff in ohio. i dont really enjoy doing that with my wife anymore, even if she were here. half the time it would devolve into an argument. i have nothing of any interest to say to her, so i think she would say mindless shit to provoke some life in me. no i will probably not get involved with the primal community. this is too much. i am in so much pain all the time. there is nothing for me, and i have nothing to give. just a big empty void pile of shit. send in the fucking opium. so fucking alone. hurts.

  158. Otto Codingian says:

    i dont miss anyone. what a disease.

  159. Otto Codingian says:

    she calls on phone. dont feel like talking to her. my feelings are constantly pushing up. she emailed this is one of her favorites. me too but it just makes me want to wail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idvrich2Tyw

  160. Otto Codingian says:

    some amount of crying is bringing up images of my mom in my head. deep deep loss.

  161. Renee S. says:

    The end, Larry? This is the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkFCJyqd0As. I love this video of the The End.

  162. Margaret says:

    Otto, it is hard to read about your loneliness and hopelessness.
    i guess because I can relate to it in some ways.
    can you think of any way at all to improve your social life or to make your life better in some other way?

    i have to remind myself to keep working on it as my social circle over here keeps shrinking.
    initiatives like joining a seniors gym group help to feel I am still able to start new things and enjoy them.
    it is important to force myself to search for ways to socialize and if possible have fun, despite feeling anxious about it usually before getting there.
    but a feeling of a standstill and nothing but decline is worse.
    wish I could help you but at least you have BB and the groups.
    is your wife still living with your son and dog?

  163. Margaret says:

    ok, when I just sent in my comment to you your second commment appeared which already had most of the answers to my questions to you…

    feel bad for you and can only hope things get better soon.

  164. Vicki says:

    I am not much of a history buff, but I have read a few things, like “The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich” and “The Gulag Archipelago”. I have also seen some filmic re-creations of genocides and related stories and events, like “The Killing Fields”, but the one film that impressed me the most was a simple documentary of the liberation of the concentration camps at the end of WWII. The looks on the gaunt faces and bodies leaving the camps was unforgettable. And I have to add that the vivid experiences of other Primal patients whose own parents survived concentration camps, while other family members were exterminated, has been not only moving but clear, additional “evidence”, if any was necessary.

    I decided to do a little further research about genocides and numbers, and found, as I would have guessed, that the “death counts estimates” vary more among historians in the case of genocides happening more remotely from the vision of Western civilizations, and/or more remotely in time. For anyone interested in reading more about these things, here is a small collection of links, that I simply found most interesting.

    “In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe…. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. About 6 million European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, according to common estimates.”

    “Before the Nazis seized power in 1933, Europe had a richly diverse set of Jewish cultures … In little more than a decade, most of Europe would be conquered, occupied, or annexed by Nazi Germany and its Axis partners, and the majority of European Jews—two out of every three—would be dead.”

    Historical estimates of Primary Megadeath Tolls of the Twentieth Century:

    Mass killings under Communist regimes:

    Why is the Holocaust more important than other worse genocides?

    Why do some people view The Holocaust in WW2 as unique from other genocides and the Armenian Holocaust?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: I read the last two links in your posting and the horrors are beyond imagination EXCEPT I feel Primal theory explains almost all of it … better than anything else I have heard of or read.

      It almost all goes back to womb-hood and early child-hood … AND yet I see no others in the psychological OR medical professions; taking note. I do see a reason for it … that being whilst we remain disconnected to those old, old feelings … then we are left with it being a matter of rationalization.

      I feel, but for my own re-living event, I too would have fallen into exactly that same mind-set.

      I am not sure if history will inform us of the root of the problem … the question then becomes!!! then WHAT could???? I have my theory … but that’s all it is:- Jack’s theory.


  165. Sylvia says:

    Vicki, I always had a special kind of depression looking at those gaunt faces and skeletal figures of those concentration survivors. Of course worse yet the piles of deceased bodies. Man’s inhumanity to man. Lampshades made from human skin. What a horror.
    I recall reading that the children of survivors had more depression and suicide than the general population. It’s like the survivors genes were damaged by their experience in the camps and epigenetically the offspring also paid a price. Not to mention how it must have affected parenting skills.

    • Vicki says:

      Sylvia, I have heard that too, about the children of survivors, and about the genetic damage passed on. One patient i know has talked at length about how insane it made his parents, who lost everyone in their families when they were very young, and have never recovered from all the pain, never a hope of that. Instead they off-loaded it onto their kids, yet still kept plenty of obsessive worry for themselves to dwell in.

    • Patrick says:

      Syvia – as to the ‘gaunt faces’ etc blame the British and American bombing .It really ls not that mysterious if you have massive labor camps and all the roads and railways into them are bombed people will starve. Think of say Las Vegas if you cut off all roads and every way to get food in in fairly short order you will have more that gaunt faces you will have massive starvation. Which ls what happened in Germany no real mystery or even question about it You just have to give it a little thoght and not let yourself get carried away by ‘pictures’……………much as Trump was recently carried away by pictures of those poor poor babies. We really should be able to do a little better than that

      As far as the ‘lampshades’ and ‘soap’ stories even ‘holocaust promoters’ no longer even push this nonsense. Please you might read and think a bit more before you re-cycle such rubbish

  166. How will pondering these dark topics help me to become the degenerate billionaire playboy I’ve always wanted to be before my brief, fragile consciousness disintegrates into know-nothingness for all eternity?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Guru: My take is; you are never going to make any more than you already make now. Suggestion … live with it.


    • Sylvia says:

      It won’t, but nothing else here will make that possible either– but only here would you find the answer to why after if you become a billionaire you would sabotage it with becoming a playboy degenerate.

      • I’ll try to make the descent as fun as possible before the candle flame of my own consciousness flickers out into the eternal void, then, thanks for the heads-up Sylvia.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Sylvia: I agree with most of that. My Jimbo is of the same mind-set. I read a book:- “The Seven Laws of Money” many years ago before coming to therapy. There’s a huge myth about money that does not hold the promise. I knew this American millionaire while I was living in Ibiza. He was forever saying, he never spent more than 2 weeks of the years, worrying how to make money. I retorted with my ‘smarty pants’ answer … Yes, but you spend the other 50 weeks ‘Worried’ about how to spend it.

        I must have touched a nerve, because he slapped my round the face for saying it.


  167. Otto Codingian says:

    i have to keep forcing myself to listen to this piano music and letting myself cry and see images of my mom. instead of eating. i have to go all the way through this to get out of my deadness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dy9Yzes8w8

  168. Otto Codingian says:

    she would be playing the piano and then turned to look at me on the floor. saying something…whatever moms say to their baby that they are deeply bonded with

  169. Otto Codingian says:

    every phrase she played was special, captivating, watching her hands glidferd over the keys.

  170. Otto Codingian says:

    fall air

  171. Otto Codingian says:

    soon to goodbye forever. i had no idea

  172. Otto Codingian says:

    some kind of loosed dress they wore in the 50’s

  173. Otto Codingian says:

    of course the cloth of the dress would touch me when she picked me up to hold me close to her. some smell of the cloth maybe

    • Sylvia says:

      Boy Otto, you really are back there seeing your mom in her dress. You are in the baby brain. Good for you for feeling and not eating to cover the feelings. No doubt insights will follow. You have gone so deep.

  174. Patrick says:

    I have a Jewish friend ‘crashing’ with me (he says I couldn’t be much of an ‘anti semite’ if you want to help him anyway that’s not the point. He gave me a copy of the “Jewish Journal” and lo and behold it is FULL of ‘stories’ about the holocaust. I read some of them and tell myself be fair here or try to be. And of course some of the stories are ‘moving’ though the question DOES remain about how ‘true’ a lot of they are. But aside from that what struck me is utterly ‘a-historical’ they are what I mean is let’s even accept they are ‘true’ even so from any historical point of view they are ‘understandable’ even to take Sylvia’s examples of starvation in camps etc…………..well any historical attitude would know and understand that was pretty much totally an effect of British and American bombing. But any of that is never it seems even reflected on it’s all emotions and emotions all the time. And ‘blame’ all the time. In that way I find most of this so tiring and so full of self regard and absolute ‘sensitivity’ to themselves and no sensitivity at all to anyone else. Just think for a moment of Hamburg and Dresden and so many other cities in Germany incinerated with all the people in them. And if you do not find that convincing think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Who really were/are the ‘bad guys’ in WW2. At least some recognition of ‘facts’ like that would make a change from this constant self regard and self pity

  175. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I’m confused. I do not see which two replies you are apologizing for. I only see a response to Sylvia, where you wrote, “”Please you might read and think a bit more before you re-cycle such rubbish”. I think you are speaking to and about yourself again. Still stuck, I see. And still alienating yourself.

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – it was yesterday April 22 at 12:13 PM where Vicki and I thought it was ‘you’ (she actually) recycled a fair amount of rubbish lol. Now come on Renee do YOU believe in the ‘soap and lampshades stories’ so can we before we start ‘psychoanalyzing’ again talk or think about these ‘facts’ I mean the soap and lampshades ‘facts’ because as I said even ‘holocaust promoters’ themselves have abandoned these ‘stories’. And actually for people who are serious about this this is exactly what they see MORE AND MORE of these and other stories have had to be abandoned.So now among historians at least most of Eli Weisel’s stories have to go too. Like live babies being tossed into raging fires………..yet he said the SAW that. What a freaking liar and kids heads are stuffed full of this nonsense in schools now. To me THAT is ‘child abuse’ such hateful (to use a word!) rubbish there is no way Germans could or would do that……………….in the Judaic imagination thought it is another question. I mean WHAT makes a people dream up such nonsense and even ‘believe’ it

  176. Otto Codingian says:

    interruption by wife in ohio, on the phone. it has been so good that she has been away, good for therapy i mean. i would never have gotten down this deep with her here. and i don’t know what will come of all this feeling. seems endless. so many minutes of joy and grief at that seminal time of my baby life. so much to remember and feel.

  177. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, again I see you write about yourself when you say, “I find most of this so tiring and so full of self regard and absolute ‘sensitivity’ to themselves and no sensitivity at all to anyone else”. Still stuck and still alienating yourself.

  178. Renee S. says:

    Oh yes, Patrick, now I see how you were mistaken. Apology accepted. Once again, I gotta tell you, take a look at your last sentence. You wrote, “I mean WHAT makes a people dream up such nonsense and even ‘believe’ it”. It’s not “people” you are talking about……it’s yourself. Are you seeing any of what I am noticing?

  179. Renee S. says:

    I ask that question, Patrick, because I remember a few months ago you did acknowledge that when you were talking about the Jews or Gretchen you were really talking about parts of yourself.

    • Patrick says:

      Renee – I have reflected on that here and there and what comes up is my inability to engage in life to ‘let go’ as they say. Always on the outside looking in never really part of the action. And to me that somehow connects with this “Jewish” thing outsiders not accepted by others and also them not accepting others. And it feels to me if somehow I can ‘get my mind around’ all that in history and even in the present day as far as the “Jewish” issue is concerned then I can or will be able to ‘get my mind’ around my own situation of isolation and being apart from life. This is just a sort of ‘flash’ I have had recently but it feels true. If I could ‘solve’ that I would have solved a lot. So I imagine this is a deep motivation for me to continue to ‘research’ this issue. And I do I have just got a book that looks fairly intimidating about 1100 pages called “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and it’s impact on world history” I hope to read it and I guess to show you I don’t just read books ‘denying the holocaust’……………

  180. Phil says:

    I just lost a comment I was trying to post. I’ll try again but that’s very frustrating. It is about something which happened a few days ago. In some sad feelings I was recalling a childhood memory of visiting my mother in the institution where she was. These visits were bad and I don’t remember her ever talking to me except one time. On that day she asked me what grade I was in at school and who my teacher was. In reality I gave her the very shortest answer possible. I felt very shy and in the spotlight in front of my mother, just really disconnected, no familiarity with her, no warmth. I wanted nothing to do with her. Usually it’s anger which then proceeds as I recall this. Clearly she doesn’t even know me and only by some chance happens to take notice of my this time. Nor is my father of any help, maybe because it’s hopeless, or he is unable to do it or know what to do. He can’t help us connect. But the other day I was in a sad feeling and it went differently. I said something like “I’d like to tell you all about me because I feel and imagine you with me all the time” etc etc. I talked to her from my child perspective and also my adult self. I thought of all the years of my life and everything I’ve been through that I wished she could know about. It’s a deep feeling of the lack of never having had a mother. A fantasy that she has been here all the time and very interested in me. This opened up the sad feelings, not hard to do, but this was a new angle and feels very encouraging, that it has power to further my progress.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Avery interesting perspective. The sadness that I read on this blog is mind boggling.

      Oh! that it could have been different.


  181. Phil says:

    Over the Easter weekend we went to my cousins’ house and my aunt and uncle were there. My uncle is my mothers youngest brother. A very smart and interesting guy and I enjoy seeing him. He has a Phd in physics. But it isn’t easy to keep him talking on a personal level. All of a sudden he will divert the subject to history or world cultures. He can tell you about the Balkans or the Roman Empire. It can become quite tedious. I observe his own grown children ridiculing him for this. One made reference to him joining a history club, for example. Not what he wants to do. This is a very long standing quirky characteristic of his. I can end up stuck with him in some such conversation, with me trying to divert it from history. Also reminds me of “stupid” conversations with my father. We could never talk about important things, they had to stay deep in the background or between the lines. With my uncle I feel clearly that it’s his own history that has him stuck on the history subject. When my uncle was 4 years old, his father, my grandfather, died of a very sudden massive heart attack. I don’t think my uncle can remember his father and I have never heard him say anything about it. It’s sad to see him stuck on history, his whole life until the end, unaware. Just a guess on my part, yet I feel a certainty about this. Phil

  182. Leslie says:

    Just saw such a beautiful, moving movie “Maudie”. Try to see it if you can! Sally Hawkins and Ethan Hawke star in it and it is based on the true story of the folk artist Maude Lewis from Nova Scotia, Canada.
    While there saw the trailer for “I, Daniel Blake” a British film that looks really good also. I think you would like the dilemma Margaret – of an injured carpenter who has to navigate the system that is trying to cut him off government support.

  183. Patrick says:

    We can see here the clear connection between the slogan “Never Again” and the constant need for new wars to ensure that. I was mistaken I would say now about Trump I took his words for more than they were or maybe better said what they were. He wanted no more deluded foreign wars etc he said. But I did say whatever would happen in the election we would get a “President for Israel” and so it has come to pass. Prophecy is fulfilled you might say. But I wanted to kind of show that ‘holocaust belief’ very much goes hand in hand with American Empire and more and more war making. If you want more and eternal war keep thinking that way. I picture a slogan “Got enough war yet”

  184. Leslie says:

    Thinking of you Larry! Congratulations on your Retirement!! What an accomplishment that you are moving forward into this new phase of your life. I wish you fun, relaxation and happiness. And oh yeah a Flapper Pie of course to celebrate! 🙂
    ox L

    • Phil says:

      Larry, are you 100% retired now? I envy you. Monday morning and it’s hard being at work after such a beautiful weekend. I was outside enjoying some early Spring sun and I’d like to be continuing with that today.

  185. Margaret says:

    what you wrote to Renee about your inner identifying with some aspects of the Jewish people does make sense.
    you often talk about how you dislike their ‘taking the victim role and using it’.
    it made me recall a number of times that struck me about you and I mentioned it, you seem to have a tendency to set yourself up to be able to end up assuming a kind of victim role.
    instead of reading this 1100 pages book, which might be interesting of course, reflecting on what it is you seem to be recreating and why might be very useful as well if you really want to break that cycle of being a selfinflicted outsider.
    that is not a nice place to be in I am sure.
    hope you get forward with it.

  186. Margaret says:

    yes Larry, all the best with your retirement, hopefully filled with a variety of many happy moments and events, lots of good company and good health.

  187. Jack Waddington says:

    Larry: I wish you all the very best in your retirement. I sincerely hope something really good comes out of it. You sure deserve it.


  188. Larry says:

    Thank you everyone for your well wishes regarding my retirement. Tomorrow is my last day. I’ll get together with 24 of my colleagues for a retirement lunch at one of my favourite restaurants. Then I’m done. At my workplace I will be history.

    I’m lucky to have been able to make my living at work that mattered to me, that I wanted, that mostly interested me, often challenged me, and rarely over stressed me. I suppose if I hadn’t been able to primal along the way, I would have felt over stressed at times. Instead, I just broke down and cried when needed, ha.

    It hasn’t been easy to let it all go, to accept that I’m significantly older now and have to figure out the future all over again. It’s been really helpful to me that for the last 1.5 years I’ve been working at reduced time in transition to retirement. I’ve done a lot of crying in the adjustment to being alone with a lot of time on my hands and not at work. The difficult feelings all stem from being alone as a kid, anxious and afraid deep inside, withdrawn from human connection.

    I know that without the structure and demands of the workplace to keep me engaged with the outside world, I’m at risk of isolating and withering. But I’ve cried a lot and felt a lot of the childhood feelings to where I’m more comfortable now with my aloneness and more confident that I can take care of myself and that I have developed a social and activity network that will feed me. I feel fairly confident that I will pursue interests that will keep me meaningfully engaged with life. I’m happy to discover that in the past couple of weeks I’ve reached the point where I’m no longer anxious about retirement, but am looking forward to it. I’m ready to end my work career. I’m both sad and excited.

    I’ll feel uncomfortable tomorrow at the luncheon. I recoil from being the center of all that attention. At the same time I’m touched that my colleagues want to celebrate this transition with me and it feels meaningful to say good-bye with them this way. I anticipate it will be a nice send off.

    Thank you all for being the blog that helped me to get here, that is there to reach out to when I’m at my lowest.

    I’m jealous of your good weather, Phil. It snowed lightly here last night.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: It sounds like you have resolved a lot of things. I just hope you see multiple oportunites for yourself. Looking back at my own retirement at 65 was 20 years ago. I do agree with Janov that this therapy gives us decades more of life; with less stress; and a bigger part or ourslves. You sure had a very rough start.

      So enjoy … best you are able. I’m certain we are all ‘looking out for you’.


    • Erron says:

      Larry, best wishes for you and every exciting thing you do in retirement! I think you will be fine 🙂


    • Chris P says:

      Larry congrats on your retirement. I wish you good luck in this new phase and now you’ll have more time to visit us in sunny SoCal!

  189. Renee S. says:

    Larry: Good luck with the next phase of your life! Hope it’s awesome.

  190. Phil says:

    Larry, have fun at the luncheon tomorrow and congratulations on your retirement. That’s great how you have prepared and adjusted. Phil

  191. Renee S. says:

    Patrick, I agree with Margaret. What you say makes a lot of sense. It is a relief to read a post from you and not have to figure out or analyze what you are trying to communicate! What is most interesting is your comment that, “if somehow I can ‘get my mind around’ all that in history and even in the present day as far as the “Jewish” issue is concerned then I can or will be able to ‘get my mind’ around my own situation of isolation and being apart from life”. If this strategy was going to work, I think it would have worked already. I think this strategy is keeping you stuck and alienated. What I’m wondering is why you need to adopt a group to demonize and view as outsiders in order to understand yourself and your own “situation of isolation and being apart from life”. Any ideas?

  192. Otto Codingian says:

    this one kind of sends a chill into me. i have for the longest time considered sheet music to be contemptible, but this reminds me of the times i was taught piano, that was in military school and maybe after. i get a little twinge in my left hand because it always seemed to me to be very hard to get my hands to do what i told them. my grandmother told me once that her twin sister had tied my left hand early on, to discourage my real left-handedness, i use my right hand now, but i am kind of dyslexic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Nshp3JBm4 anyway, another thought i had was maybe my mom picked me up as a baby and i sat on her lap and she let me hit the keys of the piano a few times. i guess that is possible for a baby of 10 months or earlier, no idea. don’t know where this will lead. not really getting what i would call ecstatic relief from crying, hopefully the crying will ward off cancer or such. not relief possibly due to the dulling effects of wellbutrin and also of getting up every day at 2:40am to go to what has become a boring stressful job with an un-ending amount of work to do. anyway, i will collect social security at age 66 and still work overtime, and that stll wont cover the bills. if i make it to december, that is.

  193. Otto Codingian says:

    why the magnetic rag holds so much meaning for me, dont know. must have been a big spot burned into my brain, neurons of love and warmth converging and running in many directions. a veritable foundation. but that house didn’t get finished. at least not as intended.

  194. Otto Codingian says:

    and the little chiuahua on the ground looking up at us on the piano bench. jeez, memories….

  195. Otto Codingian says:

    what my aunt emailed me recently about my mom. well my outlook is messed up. but she said my mom was just so sweet and played the piano beautifully. 10 months of sweet love, she gave me her best.

  196. Otto Codingian says:

    what a loss…

  197. Otto Codingian says:

    seeing her come toward me, some kind of brown dress she made, smiling at me. brilliant counterpoint to my mean uncle and his non-smiling face coming toward me when i went to live with him for a while while my mom was in an iron-lung dying. hope my heart can stand all these tears.

  198. Otto Codingian says:

    somebody frying bacon in the kitchen. i have remembered that before. why i say this. it is in the whole picture here. not norman rockwell, more than that…

  199. Otto Codingian says:

    could be the day i last saw her.

    • Sylvia says:

      You are doing good, Otto. So much to feel; so much a loss of what you had. Tears are better out than in and not shed. Take care.

  200. Otto Codingian says:

    funny, i took an aspirin an hour ago. i think that helps sometimes in getting to feelings. brings down the shitload of pain enough. that is my theory. i took it because my hands are numb. ok got to go to sleep.

  201. Jo says:

    Larry, retirement is huge for you..a massive change…no wonder you felt so anxious… credit to you for tackling the approach of it…here’s to the next phase of your life!🥂👍

  202. Hey Larry, Congratulations on your retirement! Have a wonderful day tomorrow, no doubt your colleagues appreciate all you have brought to the work place. On to the next phase 🙂 ! Talk soon! Gretch

  203. Margaret says:

    I wish you would get yourself treated for what probably is carpal tunnel syndrome or you might get more and more disabled with your hands.
    you might have a good medical insurance right now working for a hospital, it is a job related injury as well, and it will give you some free time well, on your hands so to say..

  204. Jack Waddington says:

    I had those “mini convulsions”, as I call them, again last night. Now I know what they are.
    It’s a long story, but will keep it brief for now. It’s being in the womb at about 4 moths when my mother’s father committed suicide (he was desperately asthmatic apparently) my mother told years later she refused to grieve her father’s death because of the baby inside her … me. I wish now, she had grieved his death … she loved her father dearly. The fetus me could have taken her grieving. The insight is:- that was the beginnings of my homosexuality. A woman’s body is NOT a pleasant place to be inside.

    But these feeling are a precursor to the other about my screaming “I’m dying … I’m dying”; at about two and half years old. My mother left in the crib (cot) asleep, taking the other two with; her because she was upset at becoming pregnant yet again, to chat with neighbors. I woke up crying, then screaming for my mammy. That’s my “Primal Scene” The feeling is:- I didn’t know anyone could feel that amount of terror and live.

    It’ s little wonder I don’t want to re-visit it.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Correction: First sentence; second paragraph “….. at about 4 months ….” Not about 4 ‘moths’.


    • Erron says:

      Wow, BIG feelings, Jack. So sorry for you having to go through that. Courageous effort, may it turn out well for you.

      “A woman’s body is NOT a pleasant place to be inside”

      – well, in 2 senses of the phrase, I won’t go there 😉


    • Chris P says:

      Jack these are very powerful feelings. From what you have told me, your mother adored and loved you dearly so it must have definitely felt like she was distracted. And the pain that she was holing in must have affected you. If you care to please try and write with more detail about the feelings that you are having now.

      For my part, from the very beginning of life I was unwanted. As Barry put it, you were marinating in rejection the whole time in the womb. Now I often feel self-disgust and self-hate that is hard to zero in on. It is the hate and disgust that she had for me. It saturated me to the core. I also often feel a vague and unending feeling of doom and terror. This is because I was all alone when I should have been held close and coddled. Oh, it feels like these feelings are so huge and unending. I guess they are in some ways.

      I was going to say feel free to call if you want/need, but I may be calling you later.

      • Erron says:

        Chris, I’m struggling this morning reading posts from yourself, Jack and Larry. So much pain and struggle. Your phrase, quoted from Barry, of “marinating in rejection the whole time in the womb” quite chilled me, as in the last meeting I had with my own mother she as much as said she tried to abort me. Unlike you and Jack, I have yet to go there. Not looking forward to it, but it is somehow comforting to read of others like yourselves who have gone there and survived.



        • Chris P says:

          Erron, great way to put it, “so much pain and struggle” indeed. And that is sad that your mother hinted that she almost aborted you. Wow, when you say she tried does that mean she went to a clinic? Or what? Feel free to ignore these questions if as you said you are not ready to go there. I actually wish my mother would have aborted me. The pain and misery that I have gone through in my life is not fair. No one should have to suffer like this.

          I really wish there was some other way to deal with this terror and misery, but sadly there is not. Thankfully there is this wonderful community of people who are here and always willing to lend a hand and to help. And whenever you feel you are ready to go there Erron, I’ll be here to help in any way that I can. And I am sure you know that there are many other people here willing to help as well. It seems the most we can ever really do however is just listen to each other and bear witness to each other’s deepest miseries.

          • Erron says:

            Chris, no she didn’t go to a clinic, but made oblique references to using an old wives tale abortifacient (parsley, believe it or not). I’m so sorry that you wish your mother would have aborted you. God you must have some awful times. For myself, at least my dad loved and cared about me, even though he was very damaged from his own childhood, and from the effects of the Second World War. So, there were definite limits to what he could do. For example, I have big feelings about his failure to protect me from my mother’s insanity.

            I went away from primal for decades, wandering into all sorts of curious and distracting alleys that I suppose, at least kept me from agony. But I finally realised I was just going to drink myself to death if I didn’t come back and make the commitment to primal. It’s an ugly prospect, in so many ways, as I no longer believe in miracle cures or even dramatic transformations in 12 months of therapy. This is just the way I am going to live the rest of my life, for better or worse, because I’ve tried everything else and at the end of the day all the alternatives are just much, much worse.


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Erron: that is a very sad comment. I hope somehow some breakthrough occurs for you however small. In your own good way you are doing this therapy. Good luck Erron.


              • Erron says:

                Thanks Jack 🙂

              • Chris P says:

                I agree with Jack Erron, I hope you can find some way to get through some of the feelings and feel some changes for the positive in your life.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Chris: Thanks … and I feel certain (as certain as I can be) that I’ll get into it all, and I have great faith in this therapy. Of course, to hope it can ‘done’ to me is a myth, and something I discovered early in therapy. I know I have to do the work.
                  There’s always more BUT that’s not a problem … It’s part of life.


          • Erron says:

            Chris, one other thing I should say is thank you so much for your unconditional offer of help. I will certainly bear it in mind.

            I’m thrashing around a lot lately in anger and frustration because for various reasons – mostly that my therapist has been unavailable for several weeks – I have not felt safe to feel much.

            I’m also a coward who at the slightest opportunity will fly off into defence, lashing out at others (poor Jack would know) etc. rather than feel my feelings. That’s why this therapist (who’s had several years therapy and training with Janov) has been so damned good for me. He holds my face to my pain, without cruelty or busting, but also in a quietly relentless fashion. I’ve never made progress like this before with all the “mock” therapists. Thank God he’s getting back this weekend…


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Erron Not sure why “poor Jack” I can take it and if it makes me angry all I need to do is own MY anger … then it seems to dissipate. I know before therapy that I wouldn’t realize just how angry I was for a minimum of half and hour later, and some time even half a day. That was worrisome but now I can get to it a lot quicker.

              The other thing is if I OWN it then it ceases to be a blame game.
              Not sure if that will make a lot of sense Erron If not I am willing to discuss it further.


            • Chris P says:

              You’re welcome. I understand what you are saying Erron, I hope you are able to get a session with him soon. I know how hard it would be for me to go three weeks without a session or buddying.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Erron: As I know you know it takes time for those most horrid feeling to resurface

          For my part I never thought it would take almost 36 years to re-visit that major one. Yet I always knew it was there in the background.

          The ‘dying’ feelings, are the most difficult to get into IMO.


          • Erron says:

            Jack, it is amazing and I guess disappointing that it takes decades sometimes for some people to get to these major things. Even Arthur Janov writes in his blog recently of having feelings that he had not resolved in all the years of his involvement in primal.

            Perhaps the bottom line is that there is a certain amount of relief to be had from an intensive period of therapy – be that months or years – but that we had better get used to the fact that this is a lifestyle, not some sort of timeout period. At least for some of us, anyway.


          • Tim says:

            36 years is indeed a long time. I know you feel it has been worthwhile.
            Are there any particular ways in which going through this process has improved your life, resolved problems you were having in your life, or helped you change your own behaviour in a positive way?

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Tim: 36 years!!!! Yes and no. It has been been more than worthwhile. It has added years to my life, and since I love life that’s a great advantage.

              There are any number of ways I have reaped benefits. I am first and foremost way more sensitive to my surroundings and other people. I do still get irritated and angry, but I know these are MY feelings … and I can own them and know that others in the present are not the cause … albeit that they are the catalyst. The root cause goes way back into my childhood mostly from my daddy but some from my mammy as well.

              I feel a great deal more able to see why things are the way they are; even when I don’t like them. I have way more easy access to the EXPRESSION of my feelings (hope that makes sense).
              One other is I feel more able to have fun especially with my partner and I am delighted that I have someone that care about me … as I do for him.

              It’s somewhat harder to assess if my behavior, and I need others to let me know if they see it. I don’t see myself other than through how others re-act to me. However, I can accept way more easily how others feel about me, without it being a need to assert myself, or better still to defend myself. I know I am not perfect … whatever perfection is supposed to be.

              I hope that this reply answers your questions. The only curiosity I have why you felt to need to ask? No biggie if you don’t want or, feel the need to respond. Feel free however to ask further question.


              • Tim says:

                I ask because I think it is the big question: is this making your happier, richer, more satisfying?

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Tim: I understand … it could be a big question for you. Which causes me to ask; “what did therapy do for you”?

                  It gave me access to a lot more fun and happiness … however, there is a caveat to the word happiness. ‘Happiness’ is something I feel is not persuable. Happiness, like all feelings is something that happens willy-nilly. I discovered early in my therapy that “trying” … for whatever: was forlorn. Something I feel most guru’s understand implicitly. The exception is our very own guru 🙂 🙂 . I quote from some I am aware of:- “Be here now”.

                  I was lucky in that I did not have an inordinate amount of suffering in my life. What misery and sadness I did have, I learned that in expressing it, it took on way less power. However, that did not come over a short period of time.

                  After my last posting, I thought I should have explained more what I meant by my first sentence:- “Yes and no” Yes; in so far as it was more than one third of my life … No; in the sense that I see this therapy as a process that will go on for the rest of my life. I don’t see Primal therapy in the sense that, that word generally implies Something to do and get over with.

                  Meantime, I do thank you for the opportunity to post all this on the blog.


                  • Jack: Would it make any sense to you if I told you I went through a situation that was hundreds of times worse than what most of the 9/11 families went through? Just wondering aloud..

                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Guru: I am very aware that you must have gone through an awful lot, losing your mother at such an early age.
                      Whatever the means was; that you lost her.

                      The terror I experienced at just waking and finding my mammy gone … was horrific enough for me.

                      Let me add one other thing. I see you have a very wide vocabulary in the English language. I do admire that.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Chris: I do/did go into more detail in the book you that I want you to critique. Since I did post it on the blog I felt the need to be brief, enough only for the newcomers. It is my Primal scene and I know it is rearing it’s terrifying head.

        I will indeed call you if and when I sense it’s on the rise … BUT it does worry me a little that it my push you to a place I feel you may not want OR, are not ready to face.

        Maybe we can talk about it first.


        • Chris says:

          sure Jack we can talk about it first, but I gotta tell you the way you put that, “it does worry me a little that it may push you to a place I feel you may not want OR, are not ready to face” feels condescending and makes me angry. AND It does not feel friendly.

          If you have a genuine worry about me being pushed or unready rest assured the dangers are minimal. What I do when I feel unready or that I am being pushed is nod off or get distracted, so no real harm will come my way. I am not sure what you are worried about anyway. So feel free to call if you want/need to, and don’t you worry about me, I can take care of myself.

    • Larry says:

      You are an inspiration Jack in that even in later years you are still entering the fire to emerge more whole.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: thanks; that makes me feel real good Larry.
        It’s the different layers of that feeling (that I experienced in a very alien environment … way before I knew of this therapy) I now know I have to go through. All in it’s own good time.


  205. Margaret says:

    I saw such a good program on tv just now.
    it is in a serie of programs with the same young cook visiting all kind of specific groups of people all over the world, cooking with them and learning from them about their habits and rules, and spending time with them getting to know them.

    today it was a program that was filmed just one street away from where I live, in a kosher restaurant.
    the restaurant owner was funny, full of self irony about all the rules of his religion, while at the same time sincerely dedicated to following them.
    it was interesting, he was open and as i say, full of irony in a very friendly intelligent way, parts were filmed at home and in the synagogue, but what struck me very much was one brief part where the young cook was asking the restaurant owner, a chassidic Jewish man, about his family.
    he has plenty of brothers and one sister, and his elderly mom was sitting at the table as well.
    then, and it is hard to get across how it came up, almost incidentally but also shocking and very touching, the talk came on family members lost and it turned out that mom had lost 79 family members in the war years.
    it was silent for a moment, the young cook asked if she had been able to process all that grief, and the owner, one of her 11 sons, said ‘no, that kind of grief is not possible to process’, and he added but we say ‘but the sun, the sun always shines again every day’.

    such a nice view into the life of these people, so open and friendly and with a great sense of humor.

    and before any long discourse follows, these orthodox people here in town do not believe in the current state of Israel so please no lectures or rants, even if only out of respect for them, me and my feeling about those particular family that was being portrayed.

    this has nothing to do with all the political situations that indeed are wrong in so many places in this world, including in Israel and Palestina.

    but always singular people are who they are, regardless of how crazy governments or fanatic people are, no group of people is homogenous, all individuals only sharing some aspects and not agreeing on others.

    openness, respect, communication and goodwill, and the shades become so much richer than black and white, not only shades of grey either, but all kind of colours so to say.

    right now they are saying goodbye to each other, the young cook and the family and it is touching, as they all find it hard to say goodbye.
    a beautiful program about people showing who they are in a vulnerable and open way.

    will look at next programs of this serie as it is about so much more than food and cooking, about people meeting each other in the true sense of the word.

    • Margaret? Can you kindly indulge me for a second with a hypothetical question? Just for fun? I was curious to know how you think this group might have reacted if you had told them you participate in a psychological group (Primal) whose founder Janov explains that the human brain is only an exquisitely complex organ which is extremely perishable, delicately susceptible to ruination, and has the consistency of soft butter. During this hypothetical you further explained that if we all had serious injuries to our soft buttery brains there would no longer be any religious concepts to grasp as they would have evaporated into nothingness just like the morning dewdrops. How do you believe this group would have reacted to your saying what I just wrote?

      I’m not asking this question to be a smartass or confrontational, but rather I am genuinely curious as to how they would react to it. Thanks.

  206. Erron says:

    Margaret, I love meeting religious people like that (not all religious people, that’s for sure!): Devout and yet at the same time capable of seeing the ironies in, and expressing humour at their devotions.


  207. Larry says:

    This morning I knew none of my work colleagues expected me to work today. They just expected me to show up eventually for lunch, visit, clean out my desk and sign exit documents.

    During winter at work I spend all of my time at the research lab on campus. In the spring, summer and fall on the other hand, half of the time I’m also at the research farm on the edge of town. I decided that this morning I would go to their morning coffee break to say good-bye to colleagues at the research farm, not having seen them since last autumn. On the way I picked up two dozen doughnuts for them.

    Upon parking my car in the research farm yard and walking to the two buildings to visit various people, I immediately was disturbed by a nostalgia for this outdoor workplace that I was now saying good-bye to– that gave me much meaning and satisfaction during my more than two decades of work life here. I felt ‘How can I leave this place that anchored me so much?’ I ended up visiting there for a couple of hours. It was nice but getting to feel uncomfortable being in the spotlight of attention, everyone happy for me and giving me well wishes. Then drive back to the campus lab to be available for my retirement luncheon, and more attention and well wishes.

    I don’t want to go into all the details, except to say that back at the lab there was more of being the center of attention, of being the recipient of more well wishes from colleagues, through my work email, as I walked the hallways, and as they assembled with me for the drive to my retirement lunch. One after another, the barrage of heartfelt warm wishes all morning hammered away like on a chisel cracking open my defensive, protective shell. I started feeling overloaded with attention and well wishes. More and more I hurt inside from colleagues good feelings and attention for me. I wanted to recoil and hide away from it all, but because they and the workplace meant a lot to me, even more I wanted to try to enjoy a proper and meaningful goodbye ending my decades-long association with them.

    Getting so much attention all morning felt more and more surreal. I was no longer one of them, hiding safely amongst them at a social function for someone else. This time I was the center, cradled in their good-byes and happiness for me, melting from the good vibes they were giving me, needing more and more to cry, knowing that being as I am socially timid I likely will never see most of them again.

    I’m most comfortable at following. At the restaurant colleagues took their cue from me. I felt awkward being expected to take the lead to the buffet. During the meal I wanted to give each and every one there with me my attention, yet I couldn’t stand much attention. I had a difficult time focusing on anyone in any proper conversation. My socializing felt forced, disconnected, hap hazard, distracted to this group or that group of people. But they know me, they understand and accept my dislike of attention and they just were there for me. I felt happy but overwhelmed that 24 of them came to see me off at my retirement lunch.

    Only when the meal was over and I stood up to address them all in a goodbye, did I finally feel connected to them all, as I spoke several heartfelt phrases about what they and the workplace have meant to me.

    Afterward they told me I did well at the lunch. But I felt sad for me. I also sensed that though they were happy for me, some felt sad to see me go. As the afternoon edged on, more and more I needed to cry. How could I have made this decision to leave this work community and this work life that had meant so much to me? But better to leave while I’m at a peak rather than stay too long into old age and start to hate the place.

    Of course in the afternoon as soon as I got home I cried. Somehow, though so alone, I succeeded in meaningfully making it to this stage of life. And now so alone to face the future. Always so alone deep inside. So closed off and hurting because there was no one. All the attention today shone deep into me on what I desperately needed but never got. I’m starting to awaken to a time when I was somewhat less damaged, when it was a normal healthy condition that I, a little boy felt a need for attention from auntie and uncle. Not much later, after one more move, I couldn’t reach out to Mommy and Daddy, I couldn’t let myself need them, or anyone, because Mommy and Daddy were unavailable to me. They were strangers. They were deadened. They were dead to me. It’s a lifelong truth I’m waking up to, as I connect to 4 year old me and cry infinite sadness for the awful empty future that 4 year old me is finally understanding had unfolded.

    Phil and Otto lamented recently that they hadn’t experienced intimacy with the opposite sex until in their early twenties. Reading about their anguish stirred me to contemplate my childhood deprivation that left me afraid to approach girls/women. Noreen was my first and only girlfriend. I was 31. So late in life to finally make human connection. I was so fortunate to have her in my life for a while. I would never have made it this far otherwise.

    I have seen and felt enough of the source and truth of my aloneness now that I think I won’t be paralysed by it in retirement. I think I can face the future. I think I understand myself well enough and can summon sufficient will to try to make something of the future and hope it won’t always be empty. But anything can happen, good or bad. We are vulnerable to anything that might come our way and squash our life. We know that from experience.

    There has been too much aloneness in my childhood and early life. I’ll probably never feel and resolve all of it in my lifetime. I’ve been badly damaged by it, beaten and withdrawn into a protective shell. I have to try to understand it and what it did to me, emerge from it as much as I can to eek out what quality of life I can in the time I have left. I’m the only one that can do it for me. It feels like a daunting responsibility.

    • Erron says:

      Once more your descriptions of aloneness and social awkwardness really resonate with me, Larry. I have immense respect for the courageous manner in which you face all of this. I love reading your posts, even though they are so eloquently and simply put that I usually feel powerless to do justice to them in my replies. I can only say that you have brought up a lot of feelings in me, and I am thinking of you and wishing you all the best as you move forward into whatever there is.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: You are indeed very eloquent … and you description of today’s events, gave me a feeling that you getting through all this. I do feel there will be quite a few pleasant surprises in retirement.

      The loneliness thing is without doubt very debilitating BUT I feel strongly there is someway though it.

      Least-ways, for you I sincerely hope so.


    • Phil says:

      It sounds like it was a very eventful day. I can relate to those feelings on a last day of a job.
      You referred to what I mentioned about difficulties with intimacy and relationships; well the lack of. That’s what made me seek therapy to begin with.
      I remember my wonderful therapist Jean Jackson in New York who helped me so much. She actually pushed me to approach female patients at the Institute there. I didn’t do that and still had no successes in that area until a few years later. But the very important lesson being nothing can happen without trying, and that has to happen even if it isn’t easy.

  208. Otto Codingian says:

    my typing teacher in 8th grade played this to keep us in rhythm. another friend had turned me on to switched on bach at a similar time. i made many trips to the library on my bike to check out beautiful classical music and listened to these records in my lonely house. ha! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxh6HwssY30

  209. Otto Codingian says:

    i am very frightened. i have never felt such horribly strong winds in my life. i am hoping the tree in the backyard makes it through the night without crushing me or my neighbors.

  210. Margaret says:

    the question you ask, about how that group of people would react, is an illustration of the wrong approach, of the core of the problem we humans tend to create.
    in the situation you describe, every single person might answer in a different way.
    i only heard the restaurant owner and his mom, and he would certainly have said something like that anyone is free to have his own view and opinion, and that he prefers to stick to the rules and guidelines set by his ancestors.
    which does not mean he would reject all factual data of course, but only he can say what his answer to your questions would be, not me, and not a group.

    he told a joke in his restaurant, one of several jokes, about the 613 commandments they have , not to mention the commandments of his wife, instead of the ten commandments christians have.
    he said Moses went back and forth between god and the people , Jewish people in his case, and they asked if all those commandments were free, and took them..
    just an example of him not being a stern bitter fundamentalist.
    most of the community here adhere to the viewpoint the messiah has not returned yet, and until then there is no true new homeland.
    but I do not even know if that is his opinion, as I say, people are individuals, while grouping them is politics, or racism, or prejudice.
    groups can be dangerous for the participants who get carried along losing their individuality, but no group is homogeneous and the majority of people are no fanatic members of a group.
    so, wrong question.

    • Margaret: I don’t really think my question is “wrong” for I would have found it to be a fascinating sociological experiment overall even if individual responses displayed marked differences within the group as a whole (mortified? disgusted? sneering? perplexed? suspicious? curious?). Your background descriptions were enjoyable for me to read overall, though, and thanks for taking some time to address my post.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: An excellent response to Guru. AND I totally agree. We each have our opiniins dating back to early child-hood events.


      • A lot of the background material Margaret provided was indeed charming to read, but other statements I found slightly inflammatory and misjudging the purpose of my question to her.

        • Phil says:

          Who was your question really for? In that it was just a TV program it seems doubtful trying to guess how anyone being filmed might respond. With that in mind, could it be that the question was really for Margaret, all of us, or something about atheism which triggers you to ask such a thing.


          • Phil, if you reread my original question it was for my own curious sociological amusement. The question was just for Margaret because of what she talked about, nothing more. I’m not sure why you are assuming my question was for anyone but Margaret. What made you think I was being triggered?

            • Erron says:

              This blog has nothing to do with “curious sociological amusement”. Most of us are not here for cerebral masturbation. If you can’t talk about feelings, why do you even hang around here?

              • And most of us are not here to put each other down with insults. If you can’t blog without compulsively disrespecting others asking questions which have absolutely nothing to do with you, why do you even hang around here?

                • Within the minimal bounds of civility and respect for others, I see no reason why someone should tell another person how to act or what to say on the blog. I never tell anyone else what they should do or say on the blog except some variation of, “Stop being a fucking asshole!” when the civility I extend towards others is not reciprocated towards myself.

                  • Erron says:

                    If you were in a group you would be very quickly pulled up for your pseudo-intellectual bullshit. I know this isn’t group therapy, but it is a feeling blog devoted to therapy based on exploration and resolution of historic trauma.

                    I stand by what I said. Your head tripping and all your “pretty thoughts” are nothing but a defence. There is nothing to do with feelings in them, and they will not lead to anything to do with feeling. If I get under your skin, I can only say I’m glad to at least have helped you acknowledge that you do have feelings rumbling away under that titanium surface you project to the world.

                  • Phil says:

                    I would like to point out that earlier today you insulted me with your emotional immaturity comment when all I was doing was continuing our discussion and had no idea you were experiencing it as some kind of ordeal.
                    While sitting at my computer I can’t always know or predict how people are reacting to comments.

                    • I wasn’t trying to insult you, Phil. I truly was concerned because I felt my simple Q&A with you had suddenly turned into a game of one-upmanship instead of working as collaborative adults. By extension of what you see with me, doesn’t Janov insult us all by telling us we are all emotionally immature through our act-outs anyway?

  211. Phil says:

    I guess I felt it an odd question to ask and because you’ve posted other times on
    the topic of Janov’s theories and attitude toward religion.

  212. Phil says:

    But can’t you could perform this same experiment yourself with a group you’re unacquainted with. Go to a church synagogue, or mosque You can tell “them you participate in a psychological group (Primal) whose founder Janov explains that the human brain is only an exquisitely complex organ which is extremely perishable, delicately susceptible to ruination, and has the consistency of soft butter. During this hypothetical you further explained that if we all had serious injuries to our soft buttery brains there would no longer be any religious concepts to grasp as they would have evaporated into nothingness just like the morning dewdrops. How do you believe this group would” react? My reaction is that the human brain does not at all have a consistency of soft butter. It’s more like the insides of a not quite ripe pumpkin.

    • That sounds like a terrific idea, Phil! Nothing should stop you from having the honor of bearing the tastiest fruits of your creation by giving your idea the world’s very first attempt. Who knows? Maybe it would encourage the scared child within me to follow suit behind your courageous trailblazing as you try out your new idea. I recommend a minimum sample size of 200 congregants, and you may need to be ready to use a microphone or shout so everyone can hear you. When will you be ready to try this out? And who’s going to volunteer to put this on YouTube?

      • Phil says:

        I had you in mind since it was your question. It could be tried out in Times Square or the equivalent in your town. Go to the center of town with a portable amp, mike, and some pumpkins. Tell them “Your world ends with you. the end of the world is coming”, as you smash a pumpkin.

        • Phil says:

          Do you think you’d get some recruits for your cult?

        • Phil, my question to you is: Why did you want to ratchet this whole ordeal up to such a high level of daring when all I did was ask Margaret to speculate on a hypothetical question as I knew full well no one would actually carry out such a task?
          I did take the time to answer your questions regarding Janov, triggers, sociology, etc. and I was ready to be done with it. This game of daring or “chicken”, as some would call it, displays certain characteristics of emotional immaturity and it sincerely has me concerned.

  213. Phil says:

    It was you I was talking to and who called me emotionally immature, not Janov. But
    OK, I’ll accept that you did it unintentionally. I did find the image of you in the downtown
    area of your city with a mike and amp humorous; it even goes with your guru moniker.
    That comment really wasn’t meant to be taken seriously

  214. Larry says:

    Erron, I’m glad that we have this therapy, tough though it is to do, and that you are embracing it to heal your way out of your Hell.

  215. Jack; I have to respond to you down here because the thread above does not allow a continuation. I am only going to tell you there is much much more involved than the isolated consideration of attendant emotional components involved with “losing mommy”.

    I don’t want to re-hash all the additional factors involved. It’s WAY too long and cumbersome of an explanation to cover all the dangerous particulars. Just know that poking at me is not the solution. You’re going after the wrong guy!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Guru: If I have this therapy right (and I grant that is questionable) one needs to feel, then express that feeling in order for it to have less valance.

      How and why it happened, as I see it, is irrevelvant … to the vunerable baby at the time it occured.

      It is just this one point that I don’t see you expressing (mentioning) on the blog. That’s all,


      • The therapy stuff is only a fraction of the entire picture. I would dare to say a relatively small fraction. It’s way, way too much for me to provide an in-depth explanation all the factors involved with potentially only infinitesimal gains in doing so this evening. (And these are real-life adult factors, to boot). I have to leave it at that.

        Stealing your QED.

        • I need to satisfy a slightly guilty conscience here. There’s no doubt that there are plenty of people who have had it worse off than myself. One thing I am grateful for is that I did grow up in an upper middle-class household where my parents, aunts & uncles, and grandparents wanted me and loved me the best way they knew how. Even though my mother’s side of the family was largely decimated, I still had some time to try to build a comprehensive understanding of exactly what I was dealing with thanks to help from my father’s side as I was growing up.

          I just get tired of dealing with people who are senselessly poking away at me when it only adds up to mindless irritation that truly leads nowhere. Many (if not most) of the acute dangers I faced are intensely ephemeral in nature (and believe me, this was NOT by my own choice!). They are reflective of an incredibly dark side of society’s dependence on technological automation.

  216. University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos (of “Inside the Law School Scam” fame) wrote this article back in ’07:

    I have a feeling it required a lot of balls on his part to write that article. Just because it required balls for him to say it doesn’t make it less true. He certainly had more courage than me!

    • Phil says:

      I thought you were saying more or less the same thing.

      • Phil: The difference between Paul Campos & I is that he attached his name and professional reputation (as a law professor, no less!) to that article which was widely distributed throughout the country’s many thousands of news media outlets. I am only an anonymous citizen on an obscure blog.

        • Phil says:

          911 is no longer getting much press. It’s changed over to Donald Trump, and ISIS. On the blog I would say it’s the Holocaust which lately has been mentioned the most. Which topic would you like to get the most attention in the press or on the blog?