I recently received this email from a long time Primal Patient of mine. I was immediately taken aback by the nuance and seemingly endless permutations of our deepest Primal feelings. This patient’s ruthlessly honest personal inventory detailing the damage done to him and the damage done by him to loved ones and others is heartbreaking. The painful childhood filled with hurt, anger, neglect and abuse, the Primal/Existential horror of what was done to many of us seems to have its mirror image in the scar tissue we may have contributed to in the lives of the people we love. This depth of Primal reality is not for the squeamish or faint of heart. Barry Bernfeld
“Letter to Barry” by Shane Roberts
Barry, This is the worst.
I was reminiscing about how I might have chosen someone who would have
been a caring, nurturing, supportive, partner to me.
Then I pictured all the women and girlfriends I have been with. I
remembered how I had been cruel to all of them and hurt them all. I
thought how this had undermined my opportunity for love.
Then Susan came to mind.
I spent three months dating Heidi in my sophomore year of high school.
She was 6 months older and a junior. Susan was a popular, beautiful,
petite, Jewish girl (reformed, her NY relatives were orthodox), who
made me feel more loved than anyone ever had.
I adored her. I couldn’t imagine life without her. I wanted her
forever.
I grew possessive, frustrated and angry. I hurt her. She left me. It
broke my heart. For years.
So I cried this morning about the lost opportunity with my one true
love.
Then like some deep sea creature, some monster of the deep, broke the
surface of my consciousness.
First all the women I have abused. Then everyone in my life who has
ever suffered.
Any time I might have offered refuge and comfort to a suffering
friend, lover or family member, and didn’t.
Barry I don’t think I would or could ever confess this to anyone but
you.
And I’m not even sure why I’m doing that. I don’t know what it serves.
Some need I have.
It just came rushing in. Anyone who has ever suffered anything like
how I have, if I might have held out a hand, slung my arm around their
shoulder, offered some bit of comfort, some reassurance that they are
not just alone. Alone with their pain.
I aspired to be that person. I certainly held it as an ideal. A
humanitarian approach to my brother and sister fellow travelers. To be
a kind person. A sympathetic person. A generous person.
I just didn’t know how. Just did not have it in me.
I feel like Lenny in Steinbeck’s “Of Mice and Men”. I don’t want to
hurt nothin’ but if I get excited and confused I squeeze the puppy too
hard and it dies. I don’t mean to kill it.
It’s the worst. It’s the worst pain I’ve ever felt. The worst.
I’ve howled and howled. I don’t know why but it is the worst. Nothing
has ever been worse. Not even the agonies of infancy.
This is definitely the worst.
I find myself posturing against the pain. I have to remind myself to
relax my body and breathe and not posture to grip against the pain.
Weird postures. Weird movements.
I’ve pictured catatonics in mental hospitals for years. They are no
mystery to me at all.
By the time I was ten we lived on one half acre with a horse coral, a
large swimming pool, huge yard, a large home in an affluent
neighborhood of Sacramento, California. Behind our fenced half acre
was a field with a modest shack of a home on it that we did not have
direct access to.
One summer a boy about my age and build (small and skinny) with ring
worm all over his scalp causing hair loss, showed up from the “shack
house” behind us to introduce himself and play. He was dirty and
shabbily dressed (about the way I would have been appeared a year or
two before, on our farm) and seemed lonely and eager for a friend.
I think I was intrigued at first, although somewhat put off by the
ring worm, and we played together the first time we met. I may have
played with him one more time and then he showed up at the window of
our back door one day.
I thought; “Oh god, this creepy kid is going to want to come around
and play with me all the time.” And I could feel his need. I froze in
the doorway of our kitchen staring at him. He waved and stared back. I
just stood and stared. Finally I walked away from the kitchen door,
away from him, and I never saw him again.
I felt ill. Sick inside. One of my worst memories ever. Always. I’ve
never forgotten. I felt like I took a poisoned dagger and just stuck
it straight into that kid’s heart. I knew I might be his only
“friend.” And I wasn’t his friend. I knew he desperately longed for a
friend and might have a hard time finding one.
I was wracked with guilt.
Another time I was walking the mile home from school and I saw three
boys bullying another boy. Pushing him down on the ground.
I thought that wasn’t right. Someone should do something. And I felt
weak and helpless. I should go stop those boys, not let them do that.
But I knew I wasn’t strong enough, or just too cowardly. I never would
have tried to stop them.
Some years later in high school two boys started a fist fight in the
hall. I stood back watching. John , an acquaintance of mine and
star of the varsity football team burst on the scene and broke up the
fight. I thought; “That was the right thing to do. Why didn’t I even
think of doing that?”
These are the incidents that came immediately to mind once I stopped
rolling around the house screaming with the shear agony of such an
awful revelation.
Instead of being a refuge and a comfort to people in my predicament,
suffering, lonely, longing for love, I was another blind self-absorbed
hypnotic, incapable of seeing them, empathizing, recognizing their
suffering, their need for a little comfort, some kindness.
That hurts so much. That hurts more than anything. Nothing compares.
That I just wasn’t there for people who might of cared for me, loved
me, been kind to me, but I drove them away, adding to their load of
Pain.
Oh god that hurts.
I feel so alone. So bad. So radioactive.
This is the worst. So far. This is the worst. I really hope it doesn’t
get worse than this.
Love,
Shane
Primal Institute 
hi Shane
Your pain is palpable. Your description of how much it hurts you how it was for you, and how you have become because of it, is pure agony.
What got to me the most though, was when you finished your letter to Barry, and signed off by saying
LOVE,
Shane
That really hurts me. Don’t know why. I never said that to Barry.
Oh, that hurts.
Tom
Tom. I understand.
Tom. I understand.
To Shane Roberts: Hi, Shane. I recently read your letter to Barry, which was posted in 2017. You wrote about that when you were a boy, there was another boy who wanted to play with you, and you played with him once or twice, and then he showed up at your door, and you thought, “Oh god, this creepy kid is going to want to come around and play with me all the time”, and you stared at him, and he went away, and you never saw him again, and you were wracked with guilt about this. I had a similar situation, I would say, when I was seven years old. The boy next door, named Larry, wanted me for a friend, and I didn’t like him that well, but he kept coming over, and I couldn’t keep him away, and no one would help me, so one evening I decided that I would just go along with what HE wanted to do, AND PRETEND THAT I LIKED HIM. When I made this decision, it was like flipping a switch, from good life, to bad life. And I still have a mostly bad life, at age 70. He was abusive in various ways, and I was his slave, from age 7 to age 12. By age 9 1/2, my life was ruined. Nothing I did in life could make me happy. I pretended to be his best friend, but I HATED him more than anyone else I knew. I didn’t let ANYONE know that I didn’t like him, for five years. I kept it secret from everyone, that I didn’t like him, with the possible exception of a life-affirming college girl who worked for us. I might have told her a little bit about Larry. And I think I told my baby brother, in his crib, about Larry–it was someone I could tell, without him telling my parents or anyone else. After a certain point, I feared he would beat me up so bad, that I would end up in the hospital, if Larry found out that I didn’t like him. Other than that, as far as I can remember, I kept it secret, from everyone, until I was 12. At age 12, my family and I were away on vacation, and things were good, but the night before we were to return home from our vacation, I was up the hill from my parents, and I was crying, and my parents insisted on knowing why I was crying, so reluctantly I told them about Larry, about what had been going on for five years, though I maybe didn’t tell them about the molestation part. My parents were concerned, and after we got home, they were talking about Larry, and Larry was in our house, and I thought he might have overheard my parents, and might have found out that I didn’t like him. I couldn’t stand the suspense, so I started crying big-time, and Larry said “Chris, I’ve never seen you cry like THIS before”, so I told him, that I’d ben his slave and didn’t like him. He just walked away and went home, at one point looking back at me as if to say “you dirty double-crosser”. And it was all over (except I still have huge amounts of Pain from this slave relationship). Life was a lot better after the slavery was over, but still not really good. Shane, maybe you are a more admirable person than me, in that you’ve felt so bad about not being a friend to this boy that came into your life, while I gave in to the boy that came into my life, and he ruined my life (and of course I hated him).
Shane,
So much very painful stuff.
It made me reflect, do I have anything like that? An immediate thought was no.
Not true though. I have that aspect but I can’t say that much of it has come up in feelings.
My mother so sick and I can’t recall trying hard to offer her any comfort except for Christmas presents, and that wasn’t so much my idea. Maybe because she treated me badly and I was overwhelmed, but just the same.
My older brother who I did sometimes try to help at the request of my father but not nearly enough. He always had many problems and often I ran away when he wanted me as a friend. In a way, somewhat similar at times to that kid you mention at the back door. Other times we did get along as normal brothers do but as time went by he was continually in decline. I don’t think any of this was really my fault, but just the same.
Later he became deeply psychotic and I never tried hard enough to help and that continues to this day.
My father, when older, needing more attention and companionship and I didn’t really come through with that. He didn’t quite come through for me as I needed either, but just the same.
As I write this I’m realizing maybe I have felt some on all this, because I can feel the tears rising.
It’s maybe only touched on in a lot of general sadness I get to,
I can really relate to what you wrote to Barry.
Phil
I usually felt overwhelmed and helpless in the face the suffering of others and inert in the face of their needs. I have been largely disassociated from my own needs so it has always been a struggle to recognize the needs of others. Adding to my sense of helplessness. I never really knew what “help” might consist of beyond quiet empathy. And though that may be just what the doctor ordered it always felt limp and ineffectual to me. Since I feel limp and ineffectual.
Shane: Great blog article and very feeling-full and extremely honest. Hope to see you make comments to the blog now. There’s obviously more from where that came from.
Good luck Shane Jack
subscribing
Shane, I can relate in that the very worst feelings I am going through at the moment are to do with the damage I have done to other people in my craziness. I wish you well with it. I have to believe you (we) will get through it in time.
Feeling is believing.
I agree in that if you are feeling it you will get through this very painful stuff eventually
I was realizing my own first reaction to this letter was about me. That’s also
maybe what this is about, stuff in the way preventing being there for anyone else.
But that was my first reaction and don’t know Shane or whether he will come on the blog or not.
I hope so then we can become acquainted here.
I think the letter is also a great opening to further (painful) discussions, if we want to have them.
Phil
as my mom’s phone still does not seem to be connnected, I decided to give her new ward a call to check on how she is doing.
for my own sake, needing the contact and to be reassured.
I got a very friendly nurse on the phone, who told me mom is doing fine, that she is being very helpful towards other people. she told me she had taken mom for a walk to the room of a couple of her old friends who live in another part of the building.
I thanked her as that was a very sweet thing to do for my mom.
then she got mom on the phone for me who sounded lively and happy, but who also said she was very happy with my call.
she is so sweet these days, she always was but not as much as she consistently is nowadays.
she said she is not much in her room in case the phone would work again, as she spends most of her time with other people, which is very nice to hear, she sounds happy there and she seems in very caring hands, which touches me and reassures me and eases my mind…
still feel sad about my limitations to go there and join the activities and help out, but well, let’s count our blessings.
just a few days left for my exam so it is good to have the time to study and relax as well.
found out once more that when I have codeine paikillers at home, I hardly can pass one night without taking at least half a tablet, so now as the box is finished, I am more dicided to not renew my prescription for as long as possible, as it is clear I do not have enough control to just take one say once a week or so, so I am better off not having them around at all.
as a matter of fact it feels again as a relief to have finished the box, might have a couple of nights waking up a lot but I feel more and more healthy in my voyage towards going without completely.
on the up side is more vivid dreams, a more healthy body, better access to my feelings, and no blaming myself for doing something I feel I should not do.
every time I go without they are less on my mind after just a few days, so things go definitely in the right direction.
finally I have reached the point of admitting to myself that no, I can’t have as much control as I would want, so I am better off going without entirely.
so glad I did call the nursing home, it changed my mood so much knowing my mom is fine, content and feeling safe!
makes me able to relax as well, haaa….
should now soon go back to improving my own life, and loking up a contact site for seniors that won’t refuse me for being 59..
M
Barry, Shane,
thanks for that post.
what got to me most were the words ‘the worst’..
they reminded me of the feelings I had to go through two years ago, triggered by having to let my cat be euthanized.
the feelings that rose to the surface were so incredibly painful compared to all I had felt before, like a hundred times worse, like the old stuff was like a kind of relief, while that pain felt like pure ongoing agony for weeks.
I htink the difference might partly lay in having that kind of feeling with our present, adult full body and mind, a big pain felt entirely in the present, loaded with the old stuff as well…
it sounds like it is the adult you, Shane, letting in the feeling about past pain and damage done, grieving, remorse, regret..
to me I am reminded of times as a child I hit my dog with his leash, not often and not too badly, on his thick furred back mostly, but simply out of frustration he would not behave like my horse in front of my Ben Hur imaginary carriage, while I desperately wanted to feel I had a horse. weird story probably, the botom line being I was blinded by my own need and pain to the distress I caused in that poor dog probably.
and also the time I whipped a horse for not jumping over the hurdle as I wanted, I feel so sorry about that as well…
me causing pain and fear to an animal is so opposite to all what matters to me now, that it shows the unaware unfeeling me I was, focused on getting my own needs met…
sorry to those horses as well, and sorry to everyone I used in some way or another.
suddenly feel tears coming up…
you must have been in a lot of pain, Shane, and have come a long way so to hear.
it would be lovely to read some more of you on this blog, in any case all the best from me, Margaret
I’m sure the death of your cat was very hard.
I’ve just begun to feel adult Pain. I mean Pain I repressed as an adult. That has been novel because in three decades of therapy my feelings have confined themselves to early adolescence and younger.
I can relate, Margaret, to being short-tempered to pets growing up, and not seeing their needs like my dog scratching on the glass porch door to be let in and join us in our cozy room, and me ignoring her. Sorry for that.
Shane your regrets remind me of one of mine in particular. About twenty years ago in our rural area a traveling homeless man of about sixty yrs., with probably all he owned on his back, knocked on our door early in the morning. He was hungry and had watery eyes. No one else in the house was up and I was a little afraid. When he asked for food I just sort of stuttered, and he said, ‘that was okay, don’t worry,’ and he went on. I later thought if I’d had the forethought to tell him to please wait at the tree, I would get him something to eat, it would have made it safe for me and he could have eaten. I still feel badly about that, and the painfulness of it doesn’t lessen no matter how often I think about it.
Sylvia and Margaret,
I have some incidents with pets as well. I have a reoccurring dream concerning pets over populating. Something to do with animals being out of control and it’s my responsibility to take care of them.
I think it has to do with having guinea pigs as a child and a lot of excitement with that which eventually wore off. The task of taking care of them became tedious and I didn’t always stay on top of it and the animals suffered, and other factors which make this something which repeats in dreams, sometimes in bizarre ways. I’m probably better off not having pets.
Phil
I understand those moments when you wish you could relive it and make it right.
Last night after going to bed I started to have these mini convulsions, as I call them … again. I am not sure if they are a precursor to something else. They would happen about ever five to ten seconds apart. They went on for an hour and a quarter … I have a digital clock by my bedside.
There were not sad, angry, frightening or upsetting in any way; they just were. I was able to just let them happen and did not try and stop them. The insight was they were the beginnings of my mother going into labor with me.
It would be interesting if anyone else has had similar feelings. I cannot believe they are purely unique to me.
Jack
Your mention, Barry, of “the Primal/Existential horror of what was done to many of us seems to have its mirror image in the scar tissue we may have contributed to in the lives of the people we love.” reminds me of my contribution…notably to my kids, in those unconscious years; and since therapy and becoming aware, how guilt racked I was, then feeling the horror of it.
Shane, your honest email to Barry is so moving to read, especially the way you wrote about the little guy with ringworm…it sure is terribly painful these realisations.
My parental guilt is excruciating. I understand my disability, that I did not have what they needed. But as I feel deeper and deeper into my life and the connections between all that happened, my increasing recognition of just how absent as a parent I was, absent to the needs of my children, the pain of it all only increases. It hurts so much.
Tom, So nice to see you back on the blog! You were missed! Gretch
Shane , I just read you post again…. radioactive! Wow, that says it all! Gretch
I do think it is a fitting metaphor. The feeling is so much like I am radiating my inadequacies, repelling everyone around me.
Is there any hope that we will evolve as humans to more empathic? or are we doomed? Shane, I wish all of these writings could be telepathically sent to everyone who is suffering so they do not feel as alone….
Secretartiat7: I am not sure I totally understand your comment, but assume you are asking that we humans can evolve to [be] more empathetic. I don’t feel it is a matter of evolving from neurosis to a state of non neurosis for humanity. It is a matter IMO of returning to our REAL Natural selves.
The quest then becomes how???? I don’t think is ever going to be possible for all of humanity to get Primal therapy with a adequately trained Primal therapist. So! as I see it, we either need a self-help book on being able to regain our “real natural selves” OR, to eliminate that, that causes parents to {inadvertently I grant in most cases} to traumatize our babies causing the baby the only option, amnesia; and thence become neurotic. I contend (just my contention) the only way to do that is to stop all forms of control, (and that includes our babies), and by shear nature, we prevent the next generation from becoming neurotic. That controlling factor, I feel very strongly, is to abolish the greatest controlling factor preventing such a transition is “MONEY”.
However, that transition also needs a great deal of consideration … not impossible IMO,
Jack
I have so many regrets about the millions of times that my actions have caused pain to many living beings. cant fix that. cry sometimes. lately, i have not wanted to help anyone. maybe give some bucks to a bum, but usually i need them to ask for it, since i gave some to a lady once who maybe was not homeless. a kid sitting on the sidewalk, with his friend standing. quick decision because all i wanted to do is get home after the millionth day of long hard boring work. i slowed a little and looked from my driver’s seat. the standing friend did not look worried so i sped off. i did not pay forward this time, for what others had given to me previously. whatever. i am just another lonely harried tired sick old man who cares but has basically had enough of this sick world. whatever. now i need to get this shit out of me, and i never will–where are you mommy???????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
not sure jack. my birth would feel like i am locked in a safe, paralyzed maybe. i will post something in a minute about movement and reversal of damage done to living creatures.
oh my f***ing god. Why are people still eating meat in this day and age? Animals are just as feeling as humans, why are humans living so primitively while our technology evolves, yet humans are not growing wiser? Where is the empathy?
I mean, I understand humans that live with and in harmony with the land and the animals in a dynamic of life and survival involving respect for any killing, but I meant on a commercialized horrific level as it is today…
something touching me, not sure why BABY YOU’RE A RICH MAN
I guess 67 was when things started to go wrong again. damn.
back from group. i feel really bad. not sure why. feel like a freak in group. all alone for 6 or more months. no sex for even longer. dead mom. Horrible miserable life, as far as i am concerned. i dont notice that i am feeling bad in group. not till driving home. too many tales of joy and sorrow that i heard. going to taco bell. i have had enough of this pain. it is pretty much useless to think i will ever resolve enough of it so that i feel even 10 percent normal. going to go get my food drug. i too am pretty tired of this shit.
Otto: On reading this last comment of yours I feel very sad. I can’t quite put my finger on it other than to say it touched something inside me. Yes! there is a part of me feels for you, but under that it has to do with me.
This is my third attempt to write a reply to you. I scraped the first two. I just want to aknowledge that someone here is reading and responding to you. It’s your despair that grabs me.
I remember some time ago I read a story in the LA Times about this young boy that got locked up in a closet for three years … then died. Even after all this time after reading that story, it still grabs me. I’m crying now. I was never locked away in a closet … but I was locked away in my own neurotic closet. I suppose I find it hard to think that no-one else ever mentioned it on the blog.
I sure know the feeling of beginning to die when I called for my mammy and she didn’t come. I know this is my Primal scene. She finally did arrive and took me in her arms. Had it been sometime later I just know I would have been the case of a ‘crib death’. Gotta lay on my bed now and cry this out. Meantime Otto, I hope you too are able feel your despair. These feeling never go away … BUT eventually, if I feel them enough, they become less debilitating.
Jack
Thanks Jack. I guess despair is not the word I was thinking of, maybe more like DESPAIR? fuck this shit. give me a break, lord. what did i do in any past life to deserve this? Better not say more or he will smite me some more.
Otto: Maybe “D E S P A I R” Maybe beyond any words??? Yeah??????
Jack.
Jack, praise be that your mammy came!
Otto: Yeah!!!!!! but ONLY just. I don’t know how long I might have lasted. I must have been real close since she later told me I was blue. I often wonder about it … but yeah she did come back … eventually!!!!!!! AND she had the good sense to pick me up and hold me for, according to her, one hour … shaking and rocking me.
Jack
Scar tissue. I think i got the 3 stooges have been operating on this scar tissue of mine. i am not talking about BB or GB. I think the 3 stooges, who have all gone to the black a while back, were assigned to be guardian angels of me, and we are just not having the best of results here with this brain surgery. They seem to be doing more harm than good.”Calling Dr. Howard, Dr. Fein, Dr. Howard”. Moe keeps hitting Curly when he is aiming his scalpel. Larry is looking at the young nurse’s behind and dropping the anersthesia line to the little dog who snuck under the operating table. thanks buddy stooges!.i don’t see my neurons (or ganglions or whatever those entities in my head might be called) getting over that minefield of scar tissue to neurons on the other side, ever. ah, fucked-up strong imagination of mine and of many artists! that kept me alive, but what the fuck for? some tiny good times and more giant patches of despair. whatever.
Hey Otto, HI. Have you ever watched some people on the internet just for entertainment? There are a couple of gals on there who always make me feel happy that they are enjoying their day. If you want to have a hoot, watch: ‘Linda’s pantry’ and ‘Jill Mckeever.’ I just like the idea that people are getting along with their families and it’s nice they are showing it to us. Though it reminds me of ‘The Truman show’ where Jim Carey’s character’s life was on display for all to see, though on the internet the people are aware they are being watched.
Anyway, just wanted you to have a fun few minutes to share with the other viewers.
S
Otto, forgot to say watch them on you tube.
Have a nice day.
S
In group last week, I was feeling like I am in a hole, a black hole, there’s nothing I can do, I have felt this way many times before, a very old feeling. It went on for almost two hours, until I felt it was not going to go anywhere or change, and I left, got out of there. Leaving in my car, I felt, “I’m all alone, I don’t exist. I don’t exist. I don’t exist. I don’t exist.” Over and over, close to tears, “I don’t exist” was all the words.
That feeling has haunted me all week since. I had a nice catching-up talk with an old friend this morning, but now that’s over. I’m alone in my house, and I just wander, acting like I can’t do anything. Miserable, I sat down in my living room, and started thinking, “Am I just waiting for someone to come and save me?” THAT feels bad. What can I do? Am I just going to be alone forever. Always feeling alone.
I just felt so BAD. I stop caring about myself, I start feeling like I just want to die. It’s scary. Like I just want to let it all go. I was just sitting out there, feeling miserable, “angry, and sorry for myself. It hurts.” Then I wondered what I’m angry about. I’m feeling angry at my mom. Looking at her, “I’m angry at you, you just left me all alone. You didn’t even try to save me. You couldn’t even find it in your heart, to come and pick me up, and hug me, and take care of me.” She couldn’t find anything inside herself, to make her want to care about me. (That feeling is when I decided to come and write this here). She was bankrupt. I see the deadness, the vacant look on her face, whenever I “look” at her.
“You couldn’t even muster enough energy, to be aware of how bad I was feeling. You couldn’t find a way to love me! How was I supposed to survive, how was I supposed to survive that! “How am I supposed to survive, without you? Mom, what am I supposed to do, what kind of a life can I have, you’re not here! You’re not here with me. You don’t even know I exist! You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom. You’re not a mom! The only one I have, and you’re not. You’re not there. You’re not there. You’re not there.”
I don’t know what I’m gonna do. I don’t know how I can go on, how I can find a way to take care of myself. I just don’t have it in my heart, I don’t have the strength. I stop caring about myself, I start feeling like I just want to die. Saying all this feels a little better. Being a bit clearer about the origin of my misery. I have to keep moving on, trying to find a way to make my life better. Not easy.
Vicki, it sounds like you have got to the root of feeling bad and alone. Very powerful stuff, and good insights clarifying what you need to do now about going forward and make your life more like you want it.
Vicki: Wow and wow again! So. so sad What must the little Vicky have felt like, not having a mom to pick her up and hug her and care for her. Tell us more.
Geesus!!!!! what is it like not having a mom to care and love you? I’m really curious to know.
Jack
Vicki: Sorry … I did it again and you once mentioned it to me before. Spelling never was my thing. Sorry agian.
Jack
Thanks, Jack, for making that effort to spell my name correctly. It does matter to me, although I have given up complaining, mostly, because so few people can “get” it. Thanks.
Vicki,
I hope you can get more relief from this, the old feeling and moving forward with your life.
Phil
Sylvia, Jack, and Phil — thanks. I continued to “wallow” awhile this afternoon, kept wanting to sleep, but after a nap, I got up and did some productive work — swept my front porch, did the dishes, organized some trash to go out, and did a little weeding in my backyard. I just feel a bit more alive, and not so immobile. Still wanting to do more tonight.
God, how you are feeling sounds like such a awful place to be, Vicki! I How can a little kid ever cope with that. I hope you are able to find some good in life for you.
Thanks, Larry. I would have thought that my feeling might be similarly familiar to you, as you were “left alone” without mom and dad, as a child. A nice aunt and uncle help, it’s true, but then losing them, only to be back with “mom and dad” strangers, must have been alienating, leaving you more alone and disconnected. At least that’s my memory of when you have described it.
Yes Vicki, what you wrote on April 9 resonated in some ways with my feelings about my childhood. Perceptive of you to suspect as much. More and more I’m feeling how shattering it was that there was ‘no one here for me’ when I was just a little kid returning to live with Mom and Dad. The reality was too nightmarish to acknowledge. I became trapped in not being able to meet my needs from other people, not being able to relax and trust and let them in when they were nice and caring toward me, and thereafter and forever trapped in pain and self-inflicting the reality of the feeling that I don’t belong. It’s lucky for me that my parents weren’t also hateful the way you describe yours were.
Work friends are getting me involved in planning a retirement celebration (lunch? party?) for me. When they retire some people have a weekend house party. Others just quietly go to lunch with a few friends on their retirement. Though I recoil from the attention, the decades of memories of working alongside them are meaningful and I want a celebratory good-bye with my work friends. Upon being prompted, I chose a restaurant and requested a retirement lunch on my last day of work, Tuesday, April 25, of a select group of 25 people rather than an open invitation to the entire research organization. Today friends made the reservation at the restaurant. I drew up the list of names and emailed out the invitation today. It’s all so final. I’m caving in. I hurt. Soon I will no longer be part of that work life intermingled with theirs. I will be adrift and alone in unfamiliar seas, hoping I have the health, stamina, discipline and will power to find a meaningful course and friendly shores.
Wow, two weeks away! I had not been keeping up here, and did not know your retirement is almost upon you. Are you having to do any final trainings for others to take over, or have you already done those things? What will you be doing in your last two weeks there? Besides repeatedly talking to everybody about it.
I’m only working 2.5 days a week, Vicki. Have been since Jan or Feb, using up vacation time, getting adjusted to having a lot of time on my hands and crying a lot when I do. My boss is retired but still has her office and still comes in to finish writing research papers. I’m still doing interesting data analysis for her, and routine help for others. The routine stuff can be easily learned by new junior technicians starting next month. There are other experienced technicians around to help them with less routine matters. No one else is likely to need the rather unique and complex data analysis that my now retired boss has needed of me particularly the last 5 years or so.
So I only actually have 5 working days left, and plenty to keep me busy and at the same time tidy up and wind things down.
It’s a sad and scary time for me. Makes me remember leaving home, or leaving LA, feeling all of sad, scared, and excited. I’ve been crying that Noreen should be here. I’ve been crying how upon leaving home I had to reach out and trust people and found some who gave me emotional support and encouragement and helped me to get here, but from when I moved back home at 4 years old I never ever dared to reach out to my parents because they were dead unto themselves, just not there. I needed them then. I need them now. Now I cry needing them and feel the vulnerability and hurt of them never being there for me.
Vicki, I relate…I’m glad to read this and not feel as “alone” either.
rough, vicki, rough. hope you get through it. i hope you can get some solace from the dog, even if you don’t see her that much. i don’t get a lot of solace from my dog, she does not have the personality that some of my other pets had.
Yes, Otto, she is “the love of my life”, that is for sure. I get to see her for 3-4 hours every 3 or 4 weeks. She is happy, hanging out with their other dog all day. I don’t believe she is the happiest there as she was at her best moments with me, I have some pictures where she is just glowing — but as a whole she is happier not being inundated by the terror of fireworks every day. So that’s what I remember, for letting her go, even though it hurts, and I’m often sad about that.
Sylvia, i am pretty down, don’t even feel like looking at youtube or cnn or anything. took the dog to the park early this morn and will go again later once the crowds thin out. all i see is women women women at the park that remind me of my lost mom and i feel crappy throughout the whole walk. i go back to work tomorrow which will kill the pain somewhat. i will look at those channels you mentioned later.
Otto: Tell us more about your mom. When did you lose her?
Jack
Sylvia, i am too depressed to make a salad. (Our Favorite Salad with 3 Dressings We Lurv…Jill McKeever). I went to Ralphs to get organic lettuce and there was a guy picking up broccolli and examining each bit of it carefully, then he went on to the next bunch, so i left. I went to Whole Foods and wanted to get lettuce but they only had it in plastic bags and all the fit young women depressed me. what am i saying? heck if i know. anyway, thanks for the thought, which is helpful.
this gripped me at the end. people having too much fun, and me—NOT!
Otto, thank you for the video. The dancing at the end reminded me of square dancing time in the third grade that I loved. I was always looking forward to maybe being paired-up with ‘Mark’ the tall dark-haired boy, a crush for several years, though he probably never knew it. It was so great and innocent and we all shared a closeness twirling around as little friend-classmates.
On Jill’s salad I would have left out the broccoli and maybe put in a chopped egg.
Thanks, Otto. I enjoyed that. I found it on Youtube, and sent it to a friend.
Oh my fucking god! i am so sad. “This lovely video shows us why we are so good as a living vibrant country. Happiness abounds and long live the young musicians who give us this pleasure.”
Look at the woman on the right, she can barely contain her tears. Is it her son playing the piano?
Magnetic Rag – Frank Livolsi
A different roll of the dice and that would have been my mom watching me play……
Otto, if only….
She does seem to be really into the music. Wonderful piece. The fellow two seats away looks like Rob Reiner, though not as smiley.
Hi Margaret,
Thanks for asking about my mom – way back there. She is in excellent health – 87 – no meds & lots of activities i.e. hiking, cycling, yoga and in a choir. She lives downtown – an hour away in an apt. with 2 close friends ( my age) in the same bldg. She goes to lots of plays, movies and out to dinner with these 2 & many other friends. She is definitely an inspiration and recommends younger friends as so many of hers her age have sadly died. We are close & enjoy good visits together.
This is after many years of therapy for me however and her apologies and acknowledgement of her horrible marriage with my dad and thus a sad, twisted family life for all of us. I have a sister & 2 brothers and we are all close, have done different therapies & share seeing our mom.
Thank you for sharing your letter Shane. I remember you from years ago. It takes so much to unearth all you are. Painful stuff.
So glad to see/feel the blog now!
L
Thanks Leslie. It’s been a slog. I’m going through a new period in therapy. Quite different than any I had previously experienced. My defenses have collapsed. I am flooded with feelings at an unprecedented rate.
there still are 17 comments to read this morning, but I feel like replying already to the comment from Jack or the comment from Otto to which Jack wrote he resonates with Otto’s despair.
I do too, this morning I woke up after a good night’s sleep, no nightmares but pleasant dreams, and still I felt so hopeless and alone suddenly. it al seemed so void of meaning, leading nowhere, an awful feeling and very paralyzing and bleak.
one of my cats came up to lay on top of me and then in my arm, reaching out with his big paws to put them softly on my face, purring and stretching and loving to be cuddled, which helped a little bit to break out of the paralizing hopelessness..
still it lingers, and it also dawned on me part of it seems to be linked to going without the reassuring knowledge of having one soothing moment in the evening with the effect of (half a ) painkiller and its relaxing and calming rising feeling.
now it is just me, alone and on my own in what feels like an indifferent world where real intimacy is out of reach, or volatile and momentary at best..
it is a kind of devastating feeling of aloneness, and the only consolation I can give myself is it is the same kind of feeling that sometimes acutely rises at retreats, at the last one coming out with a fierce desperate but short scream..
so it is a consolation to know part of it is the old pain coming to the suface, and it does not mean there is no fun or companionship ahead in my present life..
which feels to empty nevertheless right now, in reality and still in the feeling..
have to sign up for a senior dating agency, or try to at least, have to keep fighting and moving. despite feeling tired and hopeless, discouraged….
M
Vicki,
you described so well that feeling that resonates with me.
for me it is like I don’t count, I am not part of anything really, am on my own, not wanted, no one really interested in me.
it is a sad feeling and threatening as it is so hopeless and all encompassing..
M
That sounds like a dark place Margaret.
Otto,
that comment you wrote about it could have been you with another roll of the dice struck me.
it must be so hard to have to grieve about what has not happened, all the things you missed out on, which also goes for Guru.
it is an endless kind of loss..
in my own way it is like thinking about all the stuff I can’t see and do anymore without proper eyesight.
despite not being helpful if on my mind all the time, the grieving needs to be done every now and then…
we can only make the best of a bad situation..
M
Vicki,
ha, glad this came up again, as I remember spelling your name with an i in the end and then someone pointed out it was wrong, so I changed it again!
was even thinking about it a number of times, thought I had mixed it up with another Vicky I know, that one with an y then…
Leslie, that is one healthy mom you have with what sounds like a good old age!
and I agree the blog now is really nice to join into, it is nice to follow the interactions and support and to be part of things..
M
Thanks, Margaret, it did bother me that you spelt it incorrectly, but I just thought you couldn’t remember, so I gave up trying. Yes, please with an “i”.
Vicki,
what made you leave group and not talk about what went on for you there?
I am curious as talking or not talking still remains a dilemma for me too often.
leaving is even more drastic of course..
M
Margaret, at group all I could feel was the worst of it, in a hole, a black hole, just sinking into it, getting worse. Same as numerous times before. No words. I could barely hear what people were saying. I couldn’t feel anything except “sinking”. No desire or impulse to say anything. I just wanted out. I thought about going to the back room, but whenever I’ve done that before, although it usually helps move the feeling a bit further, I’m always still left IN it, and not in a good way. Whenever I have “talked about” what I’m feeling, it’s just always felt like I was being distracted from my reality. Like where people wanted me to be, rather than where I was. In that pain, I am easily led astray, or allow myself to be influenced into strange places, where I feel more disconnected. I don’t like that. I think I’d rather feel worse, but connected to it. Otherwise, I start losing the feeling of who I really am, of being a person. I’m not sure I can put it any better.
Vicki: “the worst of it, in a hole, a black hole, just sinking into it, getting worse”
It sounds to me that that is the very core of your being.
“I start losing the feeling of who I really am, of being a person. I’m not sure I can put it any better”
I feel there ‘there is no better way to put it’. Sounds right on to me.
Jack
What I did do was not perfect either. I left, mostly feeling relieved “to be out of that hole”. Before I left, I did have fleeting thoughts of fear, anger, but as soon as I paid attention to them, they went away. The sinking feeling of being in a black hole was the main event.
In my car, I had the “I don’t exist” feelings, and that was all there was. I felt relieved just with that. Then I was just determined to function, practically, things for my life, motion — those things get me out of “the hole” in an immediate, benign way, but allow me still to feel like “myself”. I was headed home, but suddenly remembered the Farmer’s Market was still open, so I went there, walked, ate, and bought strawberries. I had been wanting to go there for some weeks, but hadn’t had the time. So it was good exercise, and made me feel like a person, and that I can function, and not just want to die. I felt good about that, even though I was still “in” the feeling and I did not imagine it would go away.
Vicki,
it sounds like you made the right choice by leaving and focusing on and staying in the feeling, and writing about it here then.
M
Vicki,
I also like you just trusted your own judgement about what seemed best for you to do.
M
Larry,
reading about your upcoming retirement an idea crossed my mind.
you sound like a good landscape photographer, wouldn’t it be a nice gesture to give the office a goodbye present in the form of a framed photograph?
at the same time something truely yours would remain there and be enjoyed by everyone passing by.
just an idea..
M
That is an interesting idea.
I
Quote:- “As far as my ‘banning’ it’s just another example of the disgusting shutting down of free speech and thinking that the ‘tribe’ is famous for another small example close to home”.
Free speach is NOT what this blog is about. Since you seemingly need to be constantly reminded:- It’s about the expression on ones feelings.
I wonder … what is the feeling behind this new tirade??????
I doubt, sadly, even you know. Jack
When does the ban start!
Apparently never. Unless Gretchen is willing to delete him every single time he posts.
The problem as I see it is that Patrick has no-where else to go. He’s on automatic (neurotic) auto pilot … a crooked thinker, that HOPES his intellect comes across. Little realizing that here in this blog; we all see through him.
Jack
Hi every body:
Very Deep and moving article: Shane and Barry. We are hurt and we hurt somebody. In that case it is difficult sometimes just to say I am so sorry it is the hardest word to say or not? Many times many people even killing other persons for exoterical and ideological reasons, are incapable of just saying “I am so sorry”
I always liked Elton John, particularly this song : sorry seems to be the hardest word
miguel
I don’t find it hard to apologize. And if that were all that were required, all the hurt I’ve caused would be healed.
Larry, your reply choked me up this morning.
a dark place indeed…
this night I lay awake for maybe two hours, feeling plainly bad in a bleak and hopeless way.
all kind of scary thoughts wanting to come up about things that might go wrong, making me more tense and awake while I wanted to sleep and rest as my exam is in just two hours , 9.30 this morning.
from tense and anxious I went to really feeling deeply my life is meaningless..
part of it being more hopeless without my eyesight which used to make the world still always interesting to explore at least, even under bad circumstances.
now there is little rescue left when I feel like this…
my cats help, one finally jumped on the bed and curled up against my back, purring, and that gave me some immediate little bit of relaxation.
still I felt bad enough, thinking if ever I get a stroke for example making me more disabled in any way, I would go for euthanasia, that kind of thoughts….
at some point I thought of my dad and mentally asked him to help me, feeling aware of the fact that emotionally he still seems to be there somewhere, against all rationality…
then I fell asleep after a while, and had a nice peaceful dream about simply being with him in the kitchen of our old house, just doing little things. then he got up and I asked him where he would be going, and he said, well, I don’t really know, but he still sounded at ease..
I woke up feeling less bad, got up at 6.30 and am now starting to read the comments of today during my breakfast….
hope this feeling clears up as it is well, very unpleasant..
sadness, fear, hopelessness, and a void, meaninglessness of my life and expectations and hopes…
I remember my mom once said to me, about 30 years ago or so, when she was in a depressed mood, that life seemed so meaningless and pointless to her, and I remember not really getting the meaning or sense of what she was saying, trying to cheer her up, thinking that was a pointless thing to ponder about, the pointlessness of life, ha!
she grew over it, hopefully I do too, little smiley..
M
I guess your hopelessness touched me, Margaret, because I’ve been experiencing the feeling myself as retirement approaches. I am older and weaker and tire more easily than I used to. Arthritis in my back is flaring up. I feel alone with my future and wonder what will my retirement be like if I can’t take care of myself or enjoy myself. Sometimes I feel frightened and hopeless about not being able to take care of myself but lucky for me I’m able to take the time to cry and feel into it, and a big part of it is submerged feeling from childhood. I’d be in a mess if I couldn’t access those childhood feelings.
Sylvia, i had a little girlfriend in the 3rd grade, then we moved for some reason and i lost her. walked down to the licquor store payphone for some days to call her, dont remember much after that. in the 4th grade at the new place, we also had square dancing. the girl i was paired up with did not want me to hold her hand, which i think was part of the dance. another girl was mean to me because i messed up some group art project because i misunderstood what they were doing. rough year. any time i see dancing, i get excited about it, but i don’t think that is the reason why.
Otto, that does sound like a rough year. Moving away from friends would’ve freaked me out. Isn’t it something how attached we are to our little friends and others at that age. I remember in the 2nd grade our teacher left to have her baby. I was so attached to her that I missed her every day. I guess I saw my teachers as parents because of spending all day with them.
Drat that girl who was mean to you.
maybe i smelled or something. no one really to talk to at home about it. so life remained a mystery for ages.
Jack, my mom walked out the front door one day and i don’t think she returned. i think the doorknob was the last i saw of her. 10 months old, me. she had polio, they probably took her to the hospital and my grandma said she was put in an iron lung. i got shipped to my mean uncle’s house, he was from Texas, where they all have an Apache mean streak. they hang more people in Texas than any other state in the U.S. my mom died 8 months later. my grandmother visited my mom every day and put a See’s chocolate in her mouth from time to time, so she could have a quick taste of it. did i feel her angst via the magnetic cosmic rays that connect us all? no idea if those rays transmit like that, and i was probably in too much angst to feel her if they do exist. magnetic cosmic rays, my ass….Anyway, 10 months of a devoted sweet young piano-playing mom, and a houseful of other lively women too. that went away.
Gosh, very awful for you, Otto.
I guess.cant say much about it. it took a long time to even be aware of that happening.
The heavy hand of the censor is everywhere and once again the degenarted and ultra conventional official primal world is no exception. They like to pretend they are ‘different’ but not really I guess I should know by now
https://windowsontheworld.net/video_type/amazon-book-ban-media-blackout-exposed/
Quote:- “The heavy hand of the censor is everywhere and once again the degenarted and ultra conventional official primal world is no exception. They like to pretend they are ‘different’ but not really I guess I should know by now”
So! being censored really is the crux of your current bitterness. It was originally me, and then it turned on the guy that that refused to shake your hand at the retreat, and then became Arthur Janov and anything to do with his findings and work, then it became Gretchen and now it’s Jews. Yeah!!!!! Well the guy that invented your Catholisim was a Jew His name was Jesus … don’t know if he had a last name … it might have been Christ.
I saw a program on TV last night about Spain and Italy celebrating Easter. The death of the inventor of Chrisianity. If my memory serves me well I was taught that he led a very simple life and yet the celebration of his death was of the most outrageous of pomp and circumstance with all the trapping of (to my mind) extravagance, no expense spared, and Pomp … that even topped anything the British ever came up with … and boy, do they love all their pomp.
So Patrick … what’s your real beaf??????
Jack
https://www.facebook.com/bbcthesocial/
Larry: I wasn’t sure what I was supposed to be looking at.
Jack
See my comment at 9:14 am, Jack.
Larry: I did, And I thought it was very cute of the little girl.
Jack
Sorry. That link doesn’t take you directly there. This one does.
Adorable – thanks Larry!
Jack, it has to be asked: why do you want Patrick on this blog? He has been banned and yet you continually bait him and invite him to come back and participate.
Erron: I am not absolutely sure why I continue to bait Patrick. Knowing him as well as I do, having being involved with him for more than 30 years, does account for some of my re-actions to him. He’s done his utmost ever since I did not fully comply with his wishes in the company he gave to 4 employees. Even though I perhaps contributed more than any other single employee to the company for over 25 years.
I have no regrets that he didn’t chose me to become one of the new owners … but over the period of knowing him I always felt he had some resentment towards me. I know not quite what.
Lastly I do not believe that my baiting or ignoring him wouldn’t make a scrap of difference to his using this blog for his own purposes. However, if you have a different idea of how I should re-act to him let me know and I will give that great consideration. I have no problem with having the ‘mirror’ held up to myself.
Jack
Well, my thoughts are: 1. Ignore him on the blog 2. Have your feelings about him off the blog.
I will give consideration to your suggestion Erron … BUT that does not mean, I might continue with the baits. I re-iterate …”I love blogging”
Jack
…”I love blogging”
– what’s blogging got to do with it? You are caught in a death-grip struggle you can’t win, with an old foe. I run blogs for a (meagre) living and that statement is offensive to all the people I know who really blog, as opposed to hanging around online forums to troll folks, something you have fallen into. It’s beneath you, Jack. Let it go…
Erron: I understand what you are saying; BUT I disagree. Blogging has a lot to do with it for me. There is both pleasure and keeping my mind on being an active thinker.
I do find it a bit rich Erron that you seem to KNOW I AM in a “death-grips stuggle”
There’s a good chance however, you are right.
Jack
“great
I had the same reaction as Erron. Jack and Patrick both ignore that Patrick is banned. It seems Jack you take great pleasure at every opportunity to poke Patrick and lure him on.
I agree. It’s just so striking how Patrick’s presence gets Jack to respond. Ideally, since Patrick is banned, I would think it might be better not to engage. Hard to do I guess.
Phil
Phil: It is not hard for me to ignore Patrick and I have done plenty of that, both in the present and past. I re-state “What ever I do about baiting or not baiting Patrick does not IMO make a scrap if difference. He will continue” Whatever I, or anyone else does or writes.
One only has to look at Gretchen’s responses to him to see where he goes with any comment about him.
Jack
Jack, It seems to me that our reactions, especially in relation to Patrick’s topics,do prompt him to give more arguments, in a seemingly endless cycle. The poking thing……….to me, something wrong there.
Phil: that’s fine, but that’s your feeling and not mine
If Patrick writes something about me. I have no problem with it, and can ignore it as he’s stating what he’s already stated. If on the other hand he writes about ethnic groups, religion, politics or the therapy; then I have a lot to say. That as I understand it, is the very nature of blogging.
Why is there something WRONG with that?
Jack
Larry: You are right … it does give me pleasure.
Jack
Well it gives me pain. Does that mean anything to you you old pervert. Why should causing someone else pain give you pleasure…………….because you are a pervert. Nothing that primal therapy seems to have done anything about as I say you came to therapy gay and ended up gayer. Just a fucking twisted old pervert I will not be the least sorry when you pass away. You are a wasted fuck anywan…………
Jack, I can’t but wonder what kind of perversity is it that makes you take pleasure in harassing someone who is in a sense mentally ill?
“Jack, I can’t but wonder what kind of perversity is it” Do you Larry feel, it is a “perversity”? I feel there is quite a bit of stuff going on here about me responding to Patrick.
I can only FEEL, several of you here, “have a problem” with me responding to Patrick, without stating what YOUR problem is … by responding to him, BUT rather looking into me. I don’t have a problem with it, but I do reflect (rightly or wrongly) on what is motivating you guys.
I don’t think, for one moment, Patrick sees himself as sick. Further to repeat, … He’ll continue to comment on this blog for as long as he feels fit.
I do try hard to look into many things I re-act to both on and off this blog. I have a relationship whereby I need to do just that on an ongoing basis.
Jack
Jack, an anorexic/bulimic doesn’t see herself as sick. Harassing such a person is perverse, in my opinion.
Larry: I am addressing you first although today you are the last to comment. I see perversity as mainly in reference to sexual deviation, so I do not see my re-action to Patrick as perverse.
If my responses to Patrick upsets him that is his problem and NOT my intent. I try carefully not to be insulting and though I am aware that several of you see me as being provocative, that also is not my intent either. I am in the process of making several reflection both upon myself with the intent to give you guys a sense of where I am coming from. That is all. I will post my reflection later.
Jack
I like
I have the opportunity to join some people and see a local choir perform next month. Before I put my money down on a ticket, I looked for them on YouTube to hear what they sound like. I once participated in a choir for a little while. I know how impossible it is for me to sing out confidently with crystal clear voice. I’m self aware that I sing quietly, timidly, hidden in the sound of more confident singers around me, my sound a monotone suppressed by a multitude of my repressed ancient feelings. I’m in awe of singers who can blare it out openly and freely, suggestive to me of their easy open childhood and engagement with life.
I’m surprised that listening to this local choir brought a tear to my eye. Their sound suggests to me emotionally healthy, vibrant people. I’m touched that they are local citizens in my midst. I wish I could have grown up with people like them. My life would have been so different.
Jack, I will put my $.02 worth in here. When you comment on Patrick’s post he is entitled to defend himself. It must be a hard habit to break and has become reflexive for you two to ‘go at it’ by now. But we have to listen to all the hate he has for you and it is not conducive to an atmosphere for sharing our vulnerable experiences and feelings.
So in the spirit of keeping the blog a pleasant and safe place to be and share with each other, I’d say just ignore what he writes because it nullifies the ban in that he seemingly is allowed to defend himself. If you could just ignore him that would be so nice. I have enjoyed the input these last couple of weeks and it seems to be a more inviting place to contribute. For what it is worth, that’s all I have to say about that .
S
Sylvia: I felt that your suggestion here was thoughtful and honest, however there is a little more to this, between Patrick and I, than I feel is generally not realized (for me at least)
As I see it this is a feeling blog whereby we are permitted to express our feelings; whatever those feeling are. To me that is the essence of Primal Therapy and the purpose of this feeling blog. However there are several traps I see in doing so. The first is struggling, the second is defending, and the third is acting out.
I am currently in the process of making a general response to all that I feel has been taking place these last couple of days, for which I hope to address some of what I feel is taking place here. Meantime for now … Jack
Jack, the essence of feeling is honesty, and there is none of that in what you are saying on this issue. Quite the opposite, you are just being defensive and dishonest. I said earlier your current behaviour is beneath you. It seems I was wrong; maybe it just is you after all.
You even pretend not to understand the meaning of the word perversity, a curious position for an avowed blogger to take. Do you not even have a basic understanding of the language in which you blog?
I am just going through your series of defend-the-indefensible comments, and the replies to your nonsense. I think Vicki’s absolutely nails it. I suspect there is a number of us who wish you and Patrick would take your silly little game off to a room somewhere.
The bottom line is I have come to realise you have little understanding of your own inner feeling state, despite your continual breastbeating about the whole universe of feelings and how you are a proponent of living the feeling life. To put it shortly, you are full of shit. A truly feeling person understands what’s going on inside them. Maybe not straight away, but if you’re straight enough you should be able to take on board the kind of criticisms you are getting from all quarters here. That seems to be beyond you.
You just seem to be overwhelmed by feelings, and to have constructed a massive defence system based around the intellectual CONCEPT of feelings, rather than actually feeling them. Maybe you are one of Janov’s abreactors, all histrionic light show with no depth and no resolution.
I know I’m being a little over the top here, but your arrogant inability to apologise for your behaviour is really getting to me.
Erron
And I might add that I remember a couple of years ago when you were posting on Art Janov’s blog, he remarked that you sounded like you needed to come in for more therapy. He saw through you straight away.
You need to stop pretending to be some kind of expert on feelings, Jack. You’ve built a fantasy out of having lived the feeling life, but you’re still a mess. In that respect, I’m beginning to see so many resemblances between you and your nemesis Patrick.
Erron” I read both your comments with interest. I have no response to or for either. I just wanted you to know I read them. That is all.
Jack
This
Sorry
Shane, like it did to a lot of others, your heart rending ‘Letter to Barry’ affected me, in a way I’m just beginning to understand.
I’m feeling awful that I haven’t felt connected to my siblings. They support me and encourage me. I nearly always feel a boost from spending time with them. They banish my loneliness for a while. But though I’m the oldest, I’ve always been the shy, quiet, anxious brother in need of their emotional support and attention to keep me from spiraling into feeling entirely lost and alienated, but feeling incapable of giving much emotional support back. What especially bothers me is that while growing up I had no sense of empathy for them, no feeling of affection and caring. It was more like as kids we just existed, got along, played together and kept each other company, until we grew up and they moved into their teenage and adult lives while I seemed stunted desperately needing Mommy and Daddy and unable to emotionally move out of childhood. It feels like as a kid I was a black hole of need unable to relate to anyone other than try to address my own hurt.
I’m feeling now the agony that the childhood opportunity to grow up with them in shared empathy and love is long gone, a one only chance lost forever. I dip into the awful feeling that I was an outsider who didn’t belong in my family, who I felt no emotional connection with. It is an awful lonely lonely childhood feeling, as if I was from another planet and all alone on this one.
The good thing is, I’m able to feel more connected to them now as I heal from my past, and am appreciating more and more that I mean something to them as a brother who they are proud of and an inspiration. I’m starting finally to feel a love for them.
Thanks for sharing.
Larry: A very moving comment, and I understand well your feelings, as I have a buddy that is and has been in very similar state as you. i sat for him for many hours and it is the very worst.
Jack
Larry, so good to hear you are starting to feel closer. I avoided my family most of my life and now that I am feeling the cost of that I have started to make contact and it has been good. My uncle was only a few years older than me and more like a big brother. He later was president of his local chapter of the Hell’s Angels. I had distanced myself from him before that. Now I recognize it doesn’t matter who he is, he is “one of my people.” “My people” may have ignored me but I abandoned them. I got in touch with my uncle recently after 40 years and we told each other how much we love each other. That feels so much better than avoiding him out of fear and loathing.
Jack,
I wish you would not engage with Patrick, as we all want to hear as little as possible of him as he seems unable to post anything but more crap.
so please please, ignore him?
M
Jack,
my mail got blocked for a little while by a server, so only this one is from today Friday, the rest is older.
now it seems almost everyone has expressed to you in various ways they feel you should stop engaging with Patrick.
isn’t that reason enough for you, in a group it is usually very telling something is indeed going on when so many people pick up on something.
to me it kind of feels like you are harassing a mean but ‘caged’ dog, which is to say the least not a nice thing to do.
to say you indeed take pleasure in it and to say you like blogging is no proper answer, it does not feel at all you take a proper look at your deeper motives.
now for me you do not need to do so, but I wish you would respect what we all ask from you, specially as Patrick told you in a direct way it provokes pain in him.
for this one time he expresses his feeling to you that directly you chose to ignore it.
Erron is right, you should know better than behaving like that, even if it frustrates some craving you feel, it might be an opportunity to look into that.
M
Jack,
you say it is not your intent to upset Patrick. that seems hard to combine with your usual expression of loving to ‘poke’ him..
poking is upsetting , irritating and hurtful when done systematically.
you are not being honest to yourself and no lecture of your intellectual reasons will convince any of us.
you seem to enjoy some kind of power trip and it clearly is starting to upset most of us, apart from continuously engaging Patrick in an eternal destructive struggle.
at least be straithtforward about it, you get some kick out of the poking and upsetting.
and that, as it is a kick out of inflicting some kind of pain, can be called perverse.
you hold a grudge, or whatever, you might have old reasons and feelings which drive you, but at least be straight about it, we are not stupid you know.
M
Margaret:- Poking Patrick was something I did in the past. I don’t call it poking anymore.
I do not agree with most of what you stated here … but then that’s just me.
For those that care to read it, I have made a comment on my reflections of myself, that I will post after replying to you. I did so in the hope I might express my sentiments. I hope it does not appear to be defensive on my part. I will leave it for others to say so, should they feel I am.
Jack
Margaret: I am very aware that my responses to Patrick are upsetting some of you, but I do wonder at what is taking place within you all, that are making suggestions to me. I have said to you before, not all feelings are pleasant and that desiring that this blog (or any other blog for that matter) should be all sweet and pleasant flies in the face of what (I feel) is the very essence of Primal Therapy, Primal Theory, and blogging in general.
I will make as clear as I can. I do not take pleasure at hurting anyone and that includes Patrick. I take PLEASURE at responding to him … and many others on this blog. If for you, my liking ‘blogging” is not an answer then what is the answer? It is one of few pleasure I look forward to each day. Ignoring Patrick when he attempts to insult me is something I feel I have done from the moment he came onto this blog. Further, if you see from your studies I have some deeper “inner craving” … feel free to tell me what you feel that inner craving might be.
Jack
Jack I only met you on one retreat and I like you. I think you are a provocateur. That can be amusing. I don’t think you have any valid excuse for ignoring the well considered wishes on this list that you not engage Patrick in this setting. And my impression is that your Primal arguments are a manipulative strategy, along with others, to continue to provoke reactions and demand attention. Not trying to be a hard ass. Do what you want. But for whatever it is worth, that is my impression.
Jack, I believe Erron is right about you being “locked in a death-grip struggle” with Patrick. That’s one of the things going on, whatever else there is for you. In one respect, you both hijack this Blog for your interminable battles — several years’ worth! If you were not here at all, he would have much less so-called “reason” to want to be here. You perpetually bait him and get off on his responses. He likewise enjoys coming back at you angrily. You two ought to “get a room”. Better yet, you two should be locked in a room together away from this Blog, so the rest of us won’t have to see or know about whatever carnage you want to inflict on each other. But I think you want an audience for that, too.
Vicki: If I were in a “death struggle” I could agree with what is being said here. “DEATH struggle” is a very emotive phrase. I don’t feel for me, it is a struggle or, anything nearing ‘death’ I enjoy responding to almost all that respond to me.
I feel strongly that what I or anyone else states on this blog will not affect Patrick one iota. He has his reason; and even though he’s been blocked, has found another way to come back on the blog. (not difficult). Seemingly, the only thing that seems to ‘gets to’ Patrick are my responses … even those, to others. Patrick is still and IMO will continue on this blog, even if I were to die or go away completly.
It does appear to me that most of you think Patrick would eventually go away if I were to stop commenting on this blog. That is not my understanding of Patrick. For me, he has an agenda and he’ll keep that going as long as this blog exist for him to comment upon.
Jac
Jack,
I think there’s always someone responding to Patrick although it’s between you two that the biggest struggle takes place.. I would think it would get quite boring and unrewarding for him if no one responded.
To say it would make no difference; that just seems to be an excuse for you to continue poking, whether you call it that or not.
What he does here isn’t to me any coherent agenda. Just a bunch of rants and acting out disconnected feelings.
Phil
wow Jack, you do resemble Patrick in twisting the truth to the point of believing your own version.
just a small number of comments ago you still mentioned you like poking Patrick, and anyway, it does not matter how you call it, if the act is still the same.
discussing endlessly about it has no use, as you clearly refuse to let in what we are unanimously saying to you, that there is an act out going on on your part as well, and we do not like it and we do not like its effects.
why don’t you just look at what you get from it, and why you don’t want to stop it?
but hey, you and Patrick are two of a kind seemingly so I rest my case.
but we all definitely would love to see you guys go fight in a closed, soundproof room and not here, what do you say Jack, to Patrick who told you clearly you inflict pain on him?
that that does not matter as long as you get your pleasure?
M
Margaret: I am beginning to feel that your sense of Primal Therapy is not what mine is. I said ‘many moons ago’ WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT THSI BLOG IS ALL HUNKY DOREY AND SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY CONFLICTING NOTIONS OR IDEAS???????
This not how I see this therapy, this blog, or the healing process. that is all. I sense you are “STRUGGLING” with me. Be that as it maybe.
Jack
Hey Jack, What I have wondered is whether you are impacted by the Homophobic comments? Do the comments about Homosexuality or AIDS ever hurt you or are you able to ” write them off”? I know you are comfortable with who you are and I am thinking you will say it is fine. On the other hand I assume you must have grown up in a Homophobic world and likely suffered as a result. Did these issues come up in your previous relationship with Patrick or is this the first you have known of these views? Gretch
Gretchen: You ask some very legitimate questions here; BUT in order to reply FULLY. would take up more than I feel is expedient. So I will endeavor to be brief. Or as brief as possible.
“I have wondered is whether you are impacted by the Homophobic comments” My immediate response and one I have considered many time in both the past during therapy and way past that going back into my youth is:- “No!!!!” uneqivically. I was indulging in gay practices way back into my childhood as early as 7, 8, or perhaps 9. I was never ashamed nor proud of my behaviour. I just accepted it as was … and found many other guys that seemingly enjoyed induging in the primtive sex I indulged in that time.
It was not until puberty that I knew the word “Homosexuality” and never questioned that is was “WRONG”. That is the way it was and I was able to accept it, enjoy it and never looked back. I did get arrested in my early twenties and that caused me to read a great deal about this condition
(Continuing)
I never felt homosexuality was natural and normal. But I knew from some of the reading I did on the subject, that it was something I could little or nothing about. In my early teen I did tell my siblings (all younger) that was the way I was, BUT I did not tell my parent and they did not know until I was first arrested at the age of 21
I am very aware that many gay guys go through a very difficult period in their lives trying to augment their sexual feelings. That was never the case with me. So!! to sum it all up When I was working with Patrick he was fully aware of my sexual orientation, and it seemingly never bothered him at the time. It is IMO; only after coming onto the blog that he attempted to shame and insult me by revealing many of the thing he knew about me. So!!! to repeat, I feel his homophobic remarks about me say more about himself than anything about me. As best I know how … it does not bother me.
Jack
Oh
And Gretchen I consider your ‘banning’ of me totally illegitimate. You have done it because of your own sensitiveness and ignorance. You will not educate yourself you will spin your ignorance as knowledge and it is not. You have done no serious reading or thinking yet you feel free to spout of all your weak politically correct nonsense.
“In the old days an ‘anti-semite’ was someone who hated Jews: nowadays an ‘anti-semite’ is someone the Jews hate”
Defintion of ‘hate speech’: Speech/truths that Jews hate to hear
Meditate on that Gretchen and I would strongly suggest you either shut up or educate yourself about history and politics etc. Can you be that clueless or are you just pretending to me. Perhaps you can enlighten me………………though I don’t want a diatribe or your usual word salad gibberish
My Reflection upon myself:- I feel the need to be bold here for the moment. In the feeling zone/world, as I see it, there is the need to express ones feelings, simply and directly as best as one knows how. I do however see three major traps The first is struggling, the second is defending, and the third is acting-out those feelings.
I do feel that some of the suggestion made to me here over the last couple of days with only two exception, few are looking into what what drives their need to ask me to desist from responding to Patrick. If we are each of us only looking for consolations, or some relative pleasures, then this or any other blog IMO is not the place to seek that.
Most of us had a our natural feeling and expressing them thwarted in early childhood, as we all know. Getting back to finally expressing those deep early and devastating feelings is a time consuming task. Our histories do not go away … hopefully they become less devastating.
(contiuing)
I do see Patrick’s “Primal Scene”, from an earlier comment he made on the blog was when his mother beat and berated him for his behavior at his first confirmation at his church, or whatever that event was. All else as I see and know Patrick, stems from right there.
My being able to see others through there own feelings; give me a great insight as to where they are coming from. I find that a great advantage for me.
(continuing)
The major event going for me currently is my deteriorating health due mainly to getting older. However, at the age of nearing 85 I do feel I am doing better than most who are at about the same age. I feel lucky that I had a reasonably feeling-full mother (though not perfect). What I did not have was a loving and feeling-full father (though he meant well, but that was not good enough for the little me.
I will enumerate those deteriorating factors:-
1) My memory is not quite what it used to be especially with respect to remember names of people and places;
2) Eyesight:- I still am able to wear my contact lenses though for reading I need a pair of reading glasses and when the print is very small to suppliment that with a spy glass.
3) Losing my teeth and needing dentures I feel is a problem and my current ones have become ill fitting. I am about to get new ones, in-spite of the great expense.
(continuing)
4) Some several years ago I did begin to feel some chest pains and went to see a cardiologist that I continue to see every 6 month. However, I get very few chest pain currently.
5) The water works (urination) is a bit of a bother, as I need to get up at least once during the night to pee. AND many times during the day.
6) I do have Claudication in the calf muscles of my legs after about one quarter of a mile of walking. Patrick characterizes it as “blocked Arteries” … maybe all due to 22 years of smoking I used to love walking and that has now left me. Sad!
7) The skin is not as viberent as it was and wrinkling. My lowere legs and the back of my hands the skin is hardening and on my feet the skin is pealing off. I have the compusion to pull it off, but should referain from that as it can cause beeding and becoming sore. I do itch a lot on my back that was perhaps the cause of the huge abcess last year. That has now cleared up, but the itch remains and My jimbo did find a cream that soothes the itching. Not 100% but for the most part makes it bearable without my want to to scratch it.
8) I still see an internist (my primary physician) for HIV but I do not suffer any effect even after 17 years with it. I take a once a day medication but wish I could give it up.
Other than these things all’s well. (contiuing)
My life consists of: Blogging, sitting in the sun, taking short walks, occationally shopping with Jim, being surrounded by all the flowers Jim cultivtes around the trailer, occational naps, eating and sleeping; and emailing friends Jim and I do have fun together and we laugh a lot … mainly sat silly things.
To qute Calvin, of Calvin and Hobbs “Life’s short; go naked” In the symbolic sense for me, of being naked, open. and as honest as I know how.
Sorry that need to break my long comments into discrete small portions. Not sure why.
Jack
One other factor that I meant to mention but forgot: was that my sexuality evaported some several years ago. Meantime I have not been able to get and erection and needless to say I have not had any sex during that period either.
I am not sorry about any of this as I feel I got more than my fair share of sex during my lifetime al-be-it that a percentage of it, was my sexual compusive addiction.
This may explain some of my not feeling bothered by Patrick’s comment regarding what appears to be his ‘homophobia’. I do not see Patrick as being homophobic; rather I see it as mearly a means to shame and insult me. It doesn’t do either to me.
Jack
This is out of the realm of what we were discussing, but I just wanted to thank Larry for the Joy of Vox choir that was posted. It was very uplifting. I also liked the ‘Crazy’ rendition of Patsy Cline’s famed song. The conductor really gets into it and you can tell they all are having a great time. It’s nice to hear the mature voices and more youthful together. The soloist sang for the first half with the rest of choir swaying in harmony and then joining in. I think, Larry, you will have a good time at your concert.
Thanks Sylvia. 🙂
Hello All,
Tom Verzar noticed that Shane signed off in his letter to Barry by writing “Love Shane”. That caught my attention too. And I have been really feeling a lot about this lately. I had a number of insights that I wanted to share with you all.
First of all I was in a session with Gretchen a few days ago and we went over the one hour time limit for the session, and I started to feel very uncomfortable. I realized I was feeling like I was on “her time”. When I pay for a session I feel like I am paying for her time, and I feel like I deserve to be listened to and helped, etc. But once we went over the one hour, I started feeling bad. I realized I was feeling like I did not deserve to be loved. I felt/feel so unlovable. It was such a painful feeling to feel. And then I could literally feel my chest tighten and Gretchen would not let me get off the phone. She must have known it was putting me in to a feeling and I felt exposed.
I wanted to ask her if she loved me. I recalled how many years ago, I was able to bring myself in a group to ask her if she liked me, to which she replied yes. But to ask her if she loved me was very frightening and somewhat impossible–at least at that time. And I rationalized away my desire to tell her, by saying to myself that I did not want to put her in a position or to make her feel uncomfortable. But it was really me who would have felt very uncomfortable. Another way I rationalized it away was by answering the question myself. I said that it does not matter if she said she loved me; what matters are the actions and whether she shows love. So I think I will need to revisit this with her at some point.
The second thing that occurred to me is that I always pick women who are unable to love me. And then I get in to an eternal struggle with them to be loving and I work at rehabilitating them so that they will give me the love that I need. And it never works. NEVER. And with my latest girlfriend, it was ironic because she was very good at SAYING she loved me, but empty when it came to any real expressions/actions of love. So I realize that I really do want both. It is nice to hear it, and probably even nicer to get it. I say probably, because to be honest I have never felt loved in a “love relationship”.
By the way, Barry called me the “Einstein when it comes to picking a girlfriend to struggle with.”
The third and final insight I had was that I have not called my buddy Jack for several weeks. I told myself that I needed a break from feeling and so that’s why I have not called him. And he has called me a few times to check in on me, which I appreciated. But I was able to tie this in to this feeling of being unlovable/unloved as well. When I call Jack, he is totally there for me and I feel more love and care from him than anyone I have every felt in my life. He actually got in an Uber and came over here when I when I put my kitty to sleep at home. He was there crying and holding me and even trying to comfort the kitty.
What a wonderful human being you are Jack.
So why have I not been calling Jack? Because he is almost always there for me and just being on the phone with him makes feel how unloved/unlovable I am.
I am hoping that by putting this out there, I will get some more relief and maybe even more insights. I always appreciate the comments and support that I get on this blog. And I feel somewhat selfish because I rarely if ever give feedback or comment on what others write. But I can tell you all that I read just about every comment and I feel like I am part of your lives: Of course Jack, Margaret, Sylvia, Larry, Phil, Erron, Otto, Vicki, Leslie,
Chris: Just reading this:- “What a wonderful human being you are Jack.” made me cry.
Like you; I needed a daddy to say “I love you Jack”. I knew somewhere deep down, he cared about me, and all of us …. what he was unable to say was simply “I love you Jack” and then hug and kiss me. I did eventually know why. What is interesting is that I have the very same from my Jimbo. I know he loves and caresa for me, BUT he’s totally unable to say those very words. Yes I do get the hugs and kisses and that is wonderful. I tried to discuss this very thing with him; BUT it makes not a scrap of difference. He feels that showing and demonstating it is, and should be sufficient.
What is amazing is fiasnlly discovering just how much not hearing the words, hurts. Not currently but in my very early years.
I’m there Chris when you call and we connect. Take your time. and yes; I get a great deal from sitting for you. It’s not all a ‘one way ticket’.
Jack
It’s so painful to feel unworthy or an imposition.
So glad you have written Chris – and written so well! Lots of good stuff to ponder and feel.
I have thought of you often as it is so new that your kitty is gone – and yet at times it can feel long day by day too. Amazing how much space they hold in our hearts isn’t it.
Hope you have a long weekend to enjoy!
L
Chris,
I enjoyed reading what you wrote and can relate to a lot of it. I like
to see you come on the blog.
Phil
thank you Leslie!
Jack,
do you see the irony of focusing on our presumed old feelings about what we tell you, while you seem unable to look at yours that drive you to keep struggling with Patrick in what seems pretty compulsive a way.
you say we want the blog all nicy nicy but that does not fit us calling you out on your continuous engaging with Patrick.
does it not make you wonder we all pick up on something there?
only you can find out what drives you.
and it is not about answering or not answering Patricks comments, it goes further than that and I feel confident you do know, or can know if you take the time to look into it and go to the underlying feelings.
then things might not change that much but the palpable extra pressure we all pick up on might diminish and make it all more easy for everyone.
we all have our feelings triggered, so this is not such a big deal, it just seems frustrating you skip the surface, even while giving us a detailed account of your physical state you never mention what feeling goes on for you M
Margaret: First off …Quote:- “we all pick up on [what] might diminish and make it all more easy for everyone.”
Before I go on to answer you more fully I feel the need to make a general comment then I will respond to each of the points you made to me. I feel most of the comments being made towards me these last few days; have more to do with each of US wanting to change the other guy, for our very own comforts. Isn’t that exactly what our parents did to us when we were so little and vulnerable??? Wanting us babies, young children to change, in order to make it more comfortable for them (our parents)? The operative word in the quote was “easy”.
As far as I am able to assess myself, I do NOT feel I am am in a “struggle with Patrick. I enjoy responding to all and everyone that I respond to on this blog. I do however acknowledge that you all see and feel I am in a “Death Strugle” with him. I have not the slightest intention to change Patrick … or anyone else for that matter. I don’t even want or desire that he leaves this blog. I feel strongly that we each need to take ‘what is’ accept it, live with it and get the best we know how outta it. That simple as I see it.
I made a very concerted attempt to ask NOTHING from all that responded to me, while I felt that you all, with the exception of Gretchen, were asking me to do something … for the want of a better phrase … to make it more ‘comfortable’ for you’s all. I did not talk about my own old feelings, since for the moment none are/were triggered. Actually, as of right now I am in very good space. Life my Jimbo couldn’t be better … well almost! The only old feeling for me right now thinking about it is:- I didn’t have the daddy that I desperperately needed because he was for ever citisizing me what ever I did. I was never good enough for him. It was not until a great amount of therapy that I realized just how much that hurt. At the time, I thought all daddies were like that.
Calling me out on my responses to Patrick is I feel, I see Patrick differently than (I feel) most of you do, as I read you. I have said and repeated that I know Patrick far better than any of you since I have been involved with him for over 30 years. I feel (perhaps wrongly) that gives me some credibility. I am very aware that you are all picking up on something going on with me. What exactly that is, I am not sure about, AND I do/did not get a sense that any of you were getting to the root of what you were picking upon.
Renee: I read your comment and thought carefully before I made this response. I’ll be blunt. I do not feel any of the comments made towards me were in anyway excellent. I felt everyone was asking me to do something in order to make the blog more comfortable for themselves. Read how I answered the same question to Margaret.
Jack
I have been going through some minor irritations with my wife lately. I have to be careful as sometimes those trigger larger feelings between us.
She’s been on vacation this past week and working on projects at home. She’s had painters and carpenters changing the doors and wood molding and painting to get a better look. Too many rooms have been effected at once. For me, one door may look better than another but I couldn’t spend money on it. We should do our own painting but she is so perfectionist that nothing I do could be good enough. Also, my opinions are hardly taken into consideration with all of this.
Another thing is that I enjoy working outside in the yard, but she’s had to hire someone to cut the grass. I hate that. I want to do it myself and always have. Next week I’ll plant a few more trees and bushes, at least I have control over that. We also had something happen which I’ll call “the cheesecake incident”. We went down to the city to see a show and were planning to have dinner after the show. I was very hungry but she had to stop to wait in a long line to get Juniors cheesecake, touted as the best in New York, at their outlet. This really irritated me and I said so.
These cheesecakes can be found in the supermarkets and are the very same product. I’m doubtful on any differences in freshness. The line moved quicker than expected, she got her cheesecake and I got over it, but she gets over things much more slowly. She can’t seem to take any anger and/ or irritation coming from me. The following day I was actually feeling better having had released a little anger and irritation, but now am paying for it in terms of her reactions.
We have discussed about the work going and at home and I’ve complained but haven’t revisited the cheesecake incident.
I’ve also finalized the decision to again go to the retreat this year. Right now it’s feeling good that I get away from my wife and do my own thing once in a while. She does that too. We are together a very long time, 28 years now and I love her, but things are not always smooth sailing.
I look forward to seeing many of again you in sunny Santa Barbara in a few months.
Phil
Gretchen deleting (some) of my comments (why some?) can I be ‘deleted’ or ‘saved’ (computer speak) just like that some random ‘judge’ just ‘decides’ on her whim. Anyway what can I co about it – absolutely nothing. I put 2 comments on yesterday why was one deleted and one not. I have no idea but it does remind me of the amazon book ban. Why is one banned and not another? Does one transgress in some way and the other not? Or is it just a matter of time until MORE and MORE are banned. Now about the ‘holocaust’ later anything on WW2 that does not suit them, later who knows maybe putting a picture of Trump surrounded by all his Zionist handlers? Arbitrary and cruel, they are the boss they ‘decide’ who lives and who dies, who is acceptable and who is not they rule!
A few days ago Gretchen left something I wrote on there for almost 2 days and I felt better (about her) it mellows me out I am inclined to be les ‘mad’ but then she does it again and it maddens me all over again. There is something about being ‘shut up’ I feel like someone is just putting a tape over my mouth. Not a good feeling esp not for me. In many way my voice is all I have or had, I was abandoned I am sure as an infant all I had was my screams and cries. Later my ‘objections’ and ability to speak/scream out. Don’t forget I feel totally under the spell of the primal scream also it must and did mean all the world to me. So now my screams are silenced or let through on arbitrary basis. In any case they are not welcomed or acceptable. Does not leave me with much. And it surprises me honestly I bought into and believed in primal I could say what I want it purported to be DIFFERENT than all I had ever known. Maybe I ask or expect too much I am I suppose too ‘demanding’ well ok I suppose I am but I always feel what I have to say is ‘worth’ something I don’t do it casually or just for the hell of it. If I complain about Zionist power it is not to be provocative not really more it really bothers me and you know it comes up even in the ‘news’ I see lots of examples now. Just as I did in childhood and even infancy there was a lot to ‘complain’ about
I expected Gretchen to be ‘bigger’ than she turned out to be she must see I thought I am a sincere seeker after truth, it the truth hurts that no reason to shut it down. She could learn a lot from me on many levels but she doesn’t care has her own world already set up. I guess I don’t trust ANY world that is set up let alone a neat one the elides many facts and truths. That’s me I don’t fit in easily ANYwhere that’s me. A lot to complain about a strong sense of ‘injustice’ in the world. I am rambling now better stop I could go on but what’s the point it will get me nowhere.
I appreciate very much some of the people Margaret especially that try to pull Jack back from his constant critiques of me. Like even now this morning I feel I can write a bit freer because maybe he will not ‘quote me back’ and find it all wrong and crazy. What a crazy thing to do but he does it ALL the time. Anyway I thought one or two things he said yesterday were truthful about himself I mean I only wish he would get off my back. He hearkens back over and over and over about how and when and why I ‘came on the blog’. Big fucking deal it was over 5 years ago but still he wants to ‘replay’ it over and over and always putting himself in a very good light. That’s not ‘real life that’s demented ‘primal life’ where things way in the past are just repeated and replayed over and over and over. He does that in general of course and it seems harmless but not really if you are the butt of it. Anyway I do appreciate what a lot of people said and it is not to ‘support’ me just it gives me some hope that people here are not all ‘primal zombies’ they actually notice things here and there and even step out of ‘supporting’ one guy who lives under the ‘true believer’ shelter and scam. .
Gretchen you need to let up I am just being honest here the idea you ‘censor’ some things or not others or you do it at all i so reminiscent of your ‘tribes’ behavior but you don’t seem to see it. Soviet Russia was the first big “Jewish’ experiment in running a country that did not turn out so well we had ‘thought crimes’ and ‘surveillance’ up the ying yang. Apparently it was in Soviet Russia that ‘anti semitism’ was made a crime and see where that led. We it seems to me are going down the same road now here and again a Zionist controlled country expect more and more ‘thought crimes’ ‘book banning’ ‘hate speech’ etc etc Not a good future total slavery and that seems to be the “Jewish” way stamp out what they do not agree with. See the way I see it they were kicked out of over a 100 countries (including ancient Egypt?) because of their ‘behavior’ They have shown they cannot run a country they can ruin it but not run it. Over and over in history that was discovered and people did something about it but now they rule and one can’t say anything or criticize them or even point to what is happening. Anyway I suppose I go too far again now and possibly Gretchen will delete this too because of this. I feel like saying ‘dont you fucking dare’ but all I have are angry words they have all the money and power
Patrick: there is IMO a great deal in this particular comment that I feel warrants a response from me, albeit, that I am capable of coming in for some slack by doing so. I can live with all those comments made to and about me. They are truely no problem for me. Neither are your responses to me. I do have my reasoning for them not bothering me, which for now I do not feel the need to go into. However, I also see why most people resent me including yourself. I come across as a “Smart ass” (arse); and few if any like a smart ass.
Ok, the normal response to that is:- STOP BEING A FUCKING SMART ASS AND KNOW-IT-ALL. Easier said than done.
(continuing)
I repeat: I do not see you as Homophobic and from my years of knowing you, you never gave me any reason to feel you were. We actually, but for a few small incidents, worked well together. I also feel that Renee was the very first person to get through to you. I personally would like you and her, continue a dialog. One caution. I suggest if it is possible for you to refrain from all references to Jews, Judaism, the holocaust, and Israel. I am aware that you feel you see much of the ‘Truths and Falsities’ going on in the world. However I feel, as other have pointed out to me, all that is surface stuff and there are underlying reasoning’s going on that I feel most would rather you spent time on. I grant; “easier said said than done” Most of this will depend upon what it is you hope to achieve in life, with your friends, and on this blog.
That’s all for now. Jack
To maybe get deleted again and compound my sense of injustice here is an amazing story of what “Nurenberg justice” and actually the whole ‘holocaust story’ is based on…………….which is TORTURE. And I cannot ignore the ‘testicle crushing’ done here with the trauma based mind control of circumcision. It seems there is some connection but it only me saying that the article stands on its own and should gives us serious pause about the ‘stories’ we are compelled to believe.
https://www.darkmoon.me/2015/torture-and-testicle-crushing-at-nuremberg/
Patrick, I can so relate to your feelings of rage, resentment, hurt, betrayal and suffering. I can also relate to the way these feeling are coming out…….in a way that pushes people away and guarantees that you will not get what you are needing (probably for the umpteenth time in your life). It is painful for me to read your words. You are so desperately needing something from Gretchen, yet by insulting her and saying that you expected her “to be ‘bigger’ than she turned out to be” and that, “She could learn a lot from me on many levels but she doesn’t care, (she) has her own world already set up”, you are making it highly unlikely that she will be responsive to you in the way you are wanting. As I think I said to you once before, it might be helpful for you to say more simply what you are needing from her, rather than what you are not needing (to be censored). Let me know if any of this makes sense to you.
Renee
Well Renee it does make sense……………but what sort of gets me is if I HAVE to do things in a certain way. Like there is an ‘approved’ way I imagined primal would get beyond all that. Why ‘label’ anything or ‘decide’ one way is acceptable another not. But I take your point in a way in the ‘real’ world things don’t just work they way I might want them to. But that does not stop me from wanting it. I for myself CAN express it and say it even if it does not ‘work’ in the real world. That to me is still important. I really wish people would read the link about about torture and get some ‘facts’ and get away a bit from all these ‘opinions’ try to get some reality about some of these issues. Anyone can just sail along listening to lies and then enforcing them we should be able to do better
There is a Primal dilemma that always comes up. “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? But that is not how Primal Therapy works. It is a subtle process and we individually can handle only so much Pain at a time. We also need a “safe space” in which to feel. The Primal Institute must exercise sensitivity and judgement when encouraging or censoring behavior. They are in charge of the therapy they offer and the setting in which it takes place. Therapy is not a democracy. If you don’t agree with or like their approach or are frustrated by it, that is understandable. But you can’t have what you want. You only get what they give you.
Well said!
Renee: I believe and feel you are the very first person to make a breakthrough to Patrick on this blog … for as long as I have been reading it.
For right now I will leave it at that. I hope both you and he will continue a dialog.
Jack
Patrick, you’re moving too fast for me. My brain works slowly. You say that what I wrote makes sense to you. Yet, I’m not understanding what exactly of what I said makes sense to you. Please explain. Sorry to make you slow down.
Renee – what I took from you is how just ‘blowing up’ or whatever it is I do does not actually get me what I want in the ‘real’ world. And that is true (mostly) but in a funny way over time I even use that as some kind of test. Like people that really turn out to be friends do deal with it they ‘understand’ on some level and do not hold resentments that go on years and years or just cut me off all together. Those people at least to my mind and in effect turn out not to be friens
i will continue to write down my evil depressing thoughts for the benefit of no one…OH BOY, SATURDAY AND DON’T HAVE TO GO TO WORK! 9am Saturday, took a walk in the park around the lake with the dog. multitudes of women on some k walk and i don’t even want to look at their naked arms and legs and faces. they are beyond unattainable and i don’t care anymore. they are just my mom, gone. i will post these a short blurbs, since my numb fingers can go haywire and delete what i just wrote.
at the end of the walk, getting almost to the car, i think of a bio i could put on some dating website, looking for someone as bluntly speaking as myself, i am fat, ugly, old ugly face, depressed every second, dont really want a relationship, dont want to do a fucking thing. at the park i wouild rather look at dogs’ faces than their owners. i cant stand the voices of women that i hear, most sound masculine to me for some reason. i think, do i remember what my mom’s voice sounded like? no, but i can hear her sister’s voice (my aunt), who took care of me at various times in my life after my mom died, and/or i would hear her voice at the family get-togethers such as Easter, Christmas etc.
i can hear my other aunt’s voice at those same parties; also the voices of all my cousins, uncles, grand-aunts, grand-uncles, grandma, brother. but not my mother.
Otto: that is so, so sad. Seems like you never really had a mommy.
Jack
Jack, I have felt frustrated and disappointed that of all the excellent feedback you have received, none of it has seemed to help you with any breakthroughs.
what was the nasty thought i had in the bathroom just before i started writing this drivel today? cant remember. anyway, reading the colorful newspaper ads in the bathroom while doing some business. HAPPY EASTER! HERE IS A DEAL TO PUT IN YOUR EASTER BASKET! (picture of a bag of potato chips, bottles of booze, box of Peet’s coffee, big case of coke, pepsi). just what every child should have in their mother of all (easter) baskets! hunh? who pays these guys to write this stuff? who are these words attractive to, that they will rush to the store to buy buy buy? and why is this my fucking empty life, reading newspaper ads in the bathroom? like the comic books i read as a chlld, in an empty house. never seems to end, this boring lonely existence.
anyway, i heard some music coming out of someone’s car at the park, “Tonight you belong to me”, not Bernadette Peters/Steve Martin, but some women group, soft beautiful voices. now i try to find on youtube. the music had stopped when i drove around the parking lot to find that oasis.
Here you go, Otto. I posted this exact same video here a couple years ago on the blog, if I remember correctly. From the iconic comedy movie The Jerk:
Might as well throw in perhaps my very favorite scene from The Jerk movie while I am here (there are too many funny scenes to mention):
Part 2 of that scene (very brief):
well that version is so good too. ms. peters was so cute there with her curly hair. my mom might have had curly hair. i sure do/did have curls. such a soft beautiful voice. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wyinJyWUhas
Otto, it looks like you found the video before I saw your post here. OK, well, apologies for redundancy, then.
guess it was the lennon sisters. some guy at the park always playing 40’s stuff while he fishes or races his model boat there.
soon i will have to stop listening to life, and start the regimen of paying bills. more bills than money. at least i found out i can probably collect social security while remaining at work, so i could possibly stop working overtime later this year. if our dear senators leave ss alone.
this one pisses me off so f’ing much. this should have been me in adolescence; comfortable around girls; AROUND GIRLS, having fun with girls. i was robbed of this! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aL-aZXZSG7E#t=114.085028
email to my wife: Thanks for trying to give me advice on my boredom. It made me realize it is probably an old feeling of laying in a bassinette all day at Uncle Al’s house after being ripped away from my mom. Paralyzed with the inability to do anything except lay there, waiting to be fed or changed, as a baby, and that was probably the highlights of the day back then. Loneliness from the present propels the same inaction now. I could do plenty of things if I wanted, in the present. But I am stuck. Dog is too lonely to leave alone for very long anyways, on the weekend days.
Otto: Just saying “But I am stuck.” suggests to me, that you are NOT “stuck” the ones that are stuck rarely if ever know it. Just keep blogging here like you do. It’s a process and I know you already know.
I wish you well Otto.
Jack
Well Patrick, I think you’re right. And it sucks! It too bad that we can’t just be happy with the friends that understand and “get” us. We need to go after the ones that don’t understand and then try and get them to change. I can relate so well to this. Yet, I think our chances of being understood increase when we express ourselves more simply and directly. That’s why I was asking you what you are needing from Gretchen (and others) when you ‘blow up’. Because what you are getting back does not seem to be what you’re needing. What do you think?
Renee – for me this ‘blowing up’ thing goes pretty deep. It’s like there is ‘blasting outwards’ that is so basic to me………………sometimes and I talked about this a few years ago anyway I go to the (cold) creek in Topanga and when I immerse myself in the water it most of the time puts me into this space where I can kind of ‘see’ or ‘feel’ how I am ‘over-heated’ all the time. The cold seems to bring me down where I can realize that and I do this as kind of therapy. But just because I ‘glimpse’ this does not mean I can change it so much or certainly not all at once but for me it is all kind of mixed up with finding ‘truth’. And it seems to help me to be ‘brave’ enough to go for ‘truth’. I stop there as I lose my thread but this ‘blowing up’ thing has caused me plenty problems even I suppose with Jack. I figured him to be very ‘primal’ and therefore he could and would deal with it but……………….people are different and just because one has the ‘theory’ down does not mean much in practice if you get my drift
Jack, STOP BEING A FUCKING SMART ASS AND KNOW-IT-ALL!!! Please take your own advice! Only a fucking smart ass and know-it-all would tell Patrick what he should and shouldn’t talk about on this blog……it will only continue this stupid struggle between the two of you. I can’t believe you misinterpreted peoples’ feedback to you and that it held no value for you. Grrrr…….
René, I have come to realise that Jack is no better than Patrick in his personal blindness, and that his behaviour actually mirrors Patrick’s. Here is a little more polished in his outward persona, or at least he tries to be, but really just comes across as a pompous dick. With both of them, I’m sure there’s a salvageable human being somewhere under all the bullshit , but it appears there is nothing any of us can do with the salvage. It’s up to them, and sadly I don’t think they are capable of it.
Jack, I feel you yourself could act more on your advice that you so readily dish out to Patrick. I do see plenty of similarity between the two of you.
Larry: at the risk coming across as being defensive I will only add:- I was not giving advice I was making a suggestion. I personally feel offering advice is futile; however, all this is dependent what constitutes ‘advice’ and/or ‘suggestion’.
Jack .
Renee I appreciate very much your ‘support’ of me being able to talk about whatever it is I want to talk about. One of the most unfortunate aspect of PT imo at least is this kind of ‘judging’ about the topics discussed and the WAY in which to discuss them. Then there is some kind of ‘grid’ we are all meant to follow along with and given my nature at least that in itself is a reason NOT to ‘follow along’. And PT becomes it seems to me almost a total ‘head trip’ at that point people talking and behaving as they think they are MEANT to. So thank you and also my understanding/memory is you are Jewish and again I feel it shows a lot of integrity on your part not to want to shut me up on that subject. I imagine/hope it is something I can leave behind at some point but I follow my interests one thing leads to another I have no idea how long I might be interested in that or any other subject. I did not plan any of this but and this is very much in contrast to my ‘education’ I literally now follow my interests and just let them lead where they may.PT to me often is so ‘narrow’ it truly becomes a ‘limited hangout’ and the amount of repetition and redundancy is to me at least amazing. Also I feel we discover our feeling THROUGH what we are interested in to try to ‘access’ the feelings in some kind ‘raw’ state I don’t think is possible and i don’t think memory or the brain works like that at all. To me Janov was a first draft to make him some kind of be all and end all is silly and also I feel he made mistakes both practical and theoretical.
Sorry I am going off on a tangent here but one thing I wanted to mention to you. I know you liked the Beatles a lot anyway here is a link to this book that purports to have been written by the ‘later’ Paul Faul or whatever you want to call him. I am aware it seems wacked but if you can read this book. It’s amazing in the way he breaks down the songs what they mean etc. To me at least it is absolutely fascinating and it also open up the question of ‘deception’ like how deep that can go how it can be maintained etc I read in on Kindle where it is quite cheap but you may not have one. Kollerstrom’s book on the same subject is very good also but I think this is better and closer to the action. Now maybe you are not so interested I have no idea but I did think of you after I read it it’s a total page turner
It does seem in some of your posts that you are ‘blasting outwards’, Patrick. That is a perfect analogy actually. And it makes sense that a cold-water Topanga creek is a good remedy. I’m guessing, though, that it might be unrealistic to put out a post when you are starting to over-heat and feel like you might blow up, to see if one us blog readers can come over quick and get you to Topanga! If I could, I would. I love cold-water creeks. And I love Topanga. Anything else you’re needing at these times from any of us?
Similarly to Larry’s sentiments, I also would like to see these exchanges continue. I only bring up one point: Are all these “blowing up” and “blasting outwards” references an unconscious residual carryover from reading the recent widespread news about the MOAB bomb in Afghanistan? Sort of a memetic carryover that has temporarily seeped into ordinary public discourse, perhaps?
A lot of meaningful exchange has been happening here recently that I don’t want to interrupt, but I just have to share this music video that sends chills down my spine. It’s good advice for life I think, from a powerful jazz rendition of an Aerosmith song.
I feel it has become expedient for me not to reply to two of the comment to me today. I say expedient for I feel what is happening is that the blog is becoming a place to vent anger; that is misplasced.
My anger IMO, (if and when it comes up), is a feeling that for myself I need to OWN, (the feeling that is) and refrain from blaming others for it. Sure they are the catalyst, BUT NOT the real deep reason.
May I re-iterate????? This is only MY feeling, opinion, reasoning.
Jack
One thing I agree with Jack when he says he thinks I am not ‘homophobic’ but that my gay bashing type of comments were just thrown out just to hurt and shame him. It comes back I suppose to my ‘blowing up’ problem and like I began to say to Renee that has so many aspects and is deep in me. For me it is a matter of survival if someone or something is hurting me first off I feel I have to ‘defend’ myself and that is/can be a mighty effort and struggle in itself but then (in my mind) to ‘prevent’ and make sure it does not happen again or worse over and over again I have to go on the attack and really give the person a black eye.
And speaking of ‘black eyes’ this was a literal thing for me growing up. We (our family) were bullied un-mercifully in primary school (5 to 12 y.o.) and one day we were playing football in the schoolyard really actually just kicking around something like a plastic bottle and on one was was my older brother one neighbor and me and the way I remember it there was about 10 of them. It seems weird now to have set up a ‘game’ like that but that’s the way I remember it. It wasn’t totally violent but they was pushing and kicking and elbowing and verbal insults too. Anyway the game is going on and on the other sides team is this ‘new guy’ a guy who just came into the parish and he was enthusiastically joining in with all the violence and mayhem against us. And something just snapped in my brain I just started punching and pummeling this guy. Like something took over me and I was a child possessed bang bang bang punching him to the face. He was bigger than me and a year older which made my fight all the more impressive I imagine, I could see my brother was amazed truthfully I was amazed myself. I think I ‘drew blood’ or gave him a ‘black eye’ which was the boxer’s sign of winning anyway I did ‘win’ and it changed things.
After that they did not like us any better but I found a self respect and got kind of reputation as a ‘boxer’ like I was not a cruel or violent child but they know from then I could defend myself. and I kind of kept that up even when my brother let to go to secondary school I was able to stand my ground and they knew enough to leave me alone. But it was not a happy time I did not like it or glory in my invulnerability to them. I left and went to boarding school all by my own efforts even against what my parents wanted soon after and the most compelling reason was I wanted to get away from all that. I went my own way. Which is another thing a lot I ‘go my won way’ I shun the received wisdom of the majority and feel something deeper and more true to me inside. Like I said I expected primal to be ‘different’ to all that but somehow I have ended up making it the same I am either punching out at some tormentor or going my own way. Either one is tough and not so much fun but it’s all I am left with.
BTW in boarding school I did ‘succeed’ in making a new life I had new friends and so many things there were great for me. I loved it in many ways and got interested in music and reading all kinds of things’ At the same time it was a bit ‘fragile’ like somehow I know it was not totally ‘real’ it was a constructed reality I had made for myself. It just occurs to me now also because it DID ‘work’ that gave me more confidence and even as to primal I thought it would work in that way too. It sort of did also in that I made new friends like Tim for example who I am still good friends with almost 40 years later but at the ‘institutional’ level not so much. I guess I could say I got on well with quite a lot of the children but the teachers not so much. Which again ‘surprised’ me in boarding school I not only got on well with the other children but also with the teachers I was considered ‘smart’ and I was respected all the way around. And that ‘disappointment’ has been a big issue for me it was something I was inspired by and fired up by like nothing else in my life and well………………I have overall the institutional primal world less than inspiring. But like I said before that is one reason I have liked this blog so much it has given me a chance to verbalize all this and Gretchen has done this for some of her ‘lost sheep’ like me which makes this ‘banning’ thing all the more painful. Anyway it’s Easter Sunday and I feel not totally like a lost sheep but just a wayward one
I find myself playing this song/video over and over. I even send it to Guru to say it reminds me of him basking in all his millions and even billions . Truthfully I suppose it reminds me of myself or what I would want for myself. Mark Zuckerberg the Facebook guy was a kind of nerd but everything worked out for him and this is his moment of glory he has it all, the money the respect maybe the women, the women should follow I suppose. Anyway for many reasons it touches me but also in that book about McCartney “Faul” says the song is written mostly by John Lennon about the new Paul. “Baby you’re a rich man too” Lennon speaking to the new Paul saying now you have made it ‘how does it feel to be one of the beautiful people’ now you’re a Beatle you are rich and you are COOL. Rich was nice but being ‘cool’ is even more important. Also in the song you can hear the whole Eastern influence that George Harrison was into. Anyway just wanted to put it on here it’s the Beatles and the video is from the movie about Facebook
Yes, this is a sound introductory example to the problems I face every day: $1 billion stacked as $100 bills is well over ten tons (20,000 pounds) of paper weight, and I have run out of space in my living room to store it all. Sometimes I have to strain my body to shuffle the paper weight onto my desk to make extra room for mobile money storage pallets I’ve requested from a nearby warehouse, but the towering mounds of currency often block the view of my computer monitors. Did you say you sent me an email? I must have missed it while my view was obstructed.
What the fuck Patrick? I go to sleep imagining locals coming forward to volunteer to get you to Topanga ASAP when needed and imagining what other ideas you will come up with when you start to feel like you will blow up. I wake up and you’re back to talking about Jews, Paul/Faul, bannings by Gretchen and bashing Primal. You’ve lost me. What happened? Did I say something that wasn’t okay with okay with you? Were you bored? Frustrated? Wanting a break from being so open? It’s like your wall went up again. I’m confused. The only thing that is not confusing is what you say about your childhood of being bullied and bullying. I think that that role has been recreated on this blog.
No Renee you did not say anything that was not ok with me. I have had weird day myself my computer crashed in the middle of writing about Topanga and I was not even finished with that but it seems the computer send it anyway. Whatever I am sorry if got of on a tangent about this Paul thing. It’s just I have found it fascinating from so many points of view (I am aware that not many others do) but I remember you liked John Lennon so much anyway sorry I guess I just randomly went somewhere………..nothing you did wrong
It’s Easter Sunday but here is some of Kevin Barrett’s take on Trump’s ‘Easter message’ To me it fits Trump is ‘controlled’ maybe you could say ‘mind controlled’ whether willingly or not hardly matters
“But let’s face it: The United States of America is a Christian-majority country. Today is Easter. The President’s holiday message should be: “Happy Easter!”
Instead, the President of the (Christian-majority) United States has issued an Easter message that looks more like a hostage video. A professor at a major university who saw it emailed me:
Oh my God. Talk about the demeanor of a mind-controlled zombie…..
Instead of saying “happy Easter” and talking about Jesus, and maybe throwing in some eggs and rabbits as a sop to Christian-pagan syncretism, Trump begins by rambling on and on about how wonderful Jews are. He couldn’t make it any clearer that his main holiday message is “Happy Passover!” When he finally gets around to mentioning Easter, it’s almost an afterthought.
The video has abysmally poor production values, considering that it’s coming from the White House. It’s too dark. And Trump looks extremely low-energy –like a kidnapping victim in a hostage video with someone offscreen pointing a gun at head or a knife at his penis”
excellent group for me. screaming murder about being unable to be around girls as an adolescent, and not having sex until 24. etc. some relief but now i feel the need for mommy or women more than ever. whatever. still alone. still no romance. i get antsy but also excited when hearing group members talk about the sex or relationships or dating situations that they are having. i wish i had had more dates as a kid and as an adult. whatever. as i said, got some relief yesterday but then what? i don’t have the energy or drive for romance with my wife nor any woman. i am tired because i eat and work too much. the pain inside me will not get fully released for a long time to come. not much i can do but watch adult videos or fantasize about women i see at work and that is getting old. whatever. it still all boils down to losing my mom, which no amount of sex could ever fix, not to mention the other traumatic events that followed and made the whole pain even bigger year after year. that stuff made me afraid of all people, and women especially.
P i bought that song on amazon. i wrote something earlier on this blog about that song; it reminded me of bad times a-brewing as high school times began in my life. what other beatles song you got for us?
Thanks for the song, Larry. Good set of lungs there. Is there any lyric in there that really stands out for you?
Thanks Otto. I just arrived back home. I’ve been away on a landscape photography trip in the wild undisturbed badlands of southern Saskatchewan this Easter weekend with a friend, so haven’t been commenting on the blog lately. In this early spring time of year the badlands is a freezing cold and bleak landscape, but austerely wild and beautiful. Though I enjoyed photographing there and was inspired to meditation on life and my place in it, I felt conflicted in that I missed spending Easter with family friends and felt like I let them and myself down by not being with them. I feel like I might cry about it later this evening.
But about the lyrics. To me they are primal. They reflect on getting older, on wondering where time went, and “it’s everybody sin You got to lose to know how to win”. So true, as we experience in PT. And everything you learn in life, wherever you learn it from, “All these feelings come back to you”, it’s all up to you what you do with it all.
For me, soon to be retired and feeling strength, health and future waning as I age, I feel I have to shake hands with the reality that there is an end to ‘me’. I find it harder now than when I was young, to muster some hope and enthusiasm for the time I might still left. I feel like the challenge for me is to remain hopeful and find inner strength to keep taking new (scary for me) risks, going out of my comfort zone to find meaning and continue to grow my life even as old age takes firmer foothold.
These final lyrics, especially the way she sings them, feel like a powerful exhortation for how to live life, and I’m reminded that the recipe is important at every stage.
“Yeah, sing with me, sing for the year
Sing for the laughter, sing for the tear
Sing with me, just for today
Maybe tomorrow, the good Lord will take you away
Dream on
Dream on
Dream on
Dream until your dreams come true.”
Thanks for asking, Otto.
Well that led me to Creep – Vintage Postmodern Jukebox Radiohead Cover ft. Haley Reinhart. i am a fucking creep. so low. so fucked up.
I’m sad for you that you feel that way, Otto.
HIJACKED AGAIN – for the millionth time! STOP already.
The ban was put in place when nothing else would do.
For years people including skilled & caring therapists tried to help but instead of Patrick looking at himself at all he slaughtered them – and over and over again with his rants and disconnected hateful shit on here.
To me – Jack does not get painted with the same brush. Jack has and gives love and kindness. He strives to better himself and listens to others.
That’s worlds apart!
Leslie: That was/is so good to read.
I do understand why some may feel frustrated with me.
Jack
Oh stop already you 2 fucking hypocrites! Jack is a lot WORSE than me in that he is the one who always pisses and craps over what I say and then I get ‘mad’ ………….YES lI do. This sonoabitch has nothing to do but lie in wait for me almost all the crap thrown he STARTS it. That’s the most important point. He goes on about ‘abolishing money’ and all kinds of rubbish and I LET him! I do NOT for no reason ‘critique’ him and ‘quote him back’ he is the fucking wiseguy wanna be professor, demented schoolteacher without a school, judge without a courtroom
I thought it was very interesting the way LOTS of people start to see through this whited sepulcher. Now here come the censor with her ‘thoughts’ more like her Talmudic spinning and word salad. Her brain seems to be mush from 50 years of ineffective therapy. Gretchen you have no authority in the real sense. Did you read that story about how the holohoax was all based on TORTURE!. There is your ‘sacred’ story that I or anybody cannot question. But I DO question it and none of your non existent ‘authority’ makes a scrap of difference. Here to make it easy for you you dope READ it READ it again and say you are sorry. You should be you run a sorry organization
https://www.darkmoon.me/2015/torture-and-testicle-crushing-at-nuremberg/
totally agree Leslie
You WOULD! You to me wrote the book in the uselessness of therapy at it was and is done with you attitude and (non) performance at the ‘repeat’ of 2013. It was the last ‘formal therapy’ I have been involved in I was so amazed and struck by your refusal to engage in any kind of straight forward way
Patrick: Get over it. Chris refused to shake you hand … for his own very good reasons … what is such a big deal about that? It was you then leaving the ‘retreat’ that made matters worse for you IMO.
Jack
Leslie, I agree one hundred percent! Forgive me for not addressing this sooner but both yesterday and today have been non stop. I will follow up n this with some thoughts this evening. Gretchen
And before anyone and her name starts with a “G” says this stuff about the holohoax is irrelevant. IT IS NOT! It was the reason albeit a very bogus reason that was given for ‘banning’ me in the first place. Keep that in mind the only ‘rule’ I had broken was bringing up that subject. So it is NOT irrelevant so why not slow down here Gretchen and READ something for a change. I know your ‘opinion’ and it seems to be based on nothing except TORTURE if you actually trace it back. Aren’t you into ‘tracing things back/? Aren’t you all? Or is it OK so long as we keep it ONLY ‘personal’ that itself is a bogus Talmud like distinction. More spinning and divided and fooling and raking off what little money most of the Elders have. Just keep taking from them, have them live in the hope of this ‘cure’ and traipsing from all over the world to do a ‘retreat’ oops I mean ‘repeat’. Why don’t you ACTUALLY ‘retreat’ retreat from you holohoax stories. Not only do you not you ‘ban’ someone who points this out. This emperor has clothes at all your ‘thought’s I am sure will be more Talmudic ramblings and word salad
Gretchen you always game for deconstruction the culture of others now look at yourself and your ‘culture’ The trauma based mind control of circumcision and all the demented behavior that follows. Get a dose of this. Janov ‘speculates’ that so called muslim terror is because of first line pains even though most of these are hoaxes anyway how about Judaic terror. And birthed I believe in this horrific act of circumcision. Throw the light on that and thank me for pointing it out and actually ‘understanding’ it. But no you will ban me! The world has no hope when the hope of it acts like this
http://birthofanewearth.blogspot.com/search/label/Circumcision
Jack,
well, maybe we pick up on you recreating the situation with the ever critical daddy here for some reason..
we all wonder what the feeling might be.
daddy you don’t hurt me? not that surely but well, only you might find out some day, but I keep feeling there is something going on.
M
Renee,
reading your comments suddenly brought tears to my eyes.
I admire you. you are so together and gently direct and accepting.
adult is another word coming to my mind.
that together with having had the privilege to witness your vulnerability and pain and how you were able to go for it and let it come out, again makes me teary while writing this.
you are an example of how despite of all the suppressed anger and grief, it is possible to go for the underlying need and pain.
as I say, I truely admire you.
your friend Margaret
Otto,
if you really sent that mail to your wife that is very nice to hear.
it sounds like true and constructive and caring communication.
hope it helped you to break through the awful hopeless boredom of the bassinet and find something to get some pleasure in.
I do relate to some extend, I tend to wake up feeling like there is nothing I can imagine that would make me feel good, only feeling I wish I could go on sleeping and sleeping, but once I drag myself up with the help of the cats, it often wears off.
the last few days a sore neck and headache make it harder, but reading the blog in the morning also helps me to feel somehat connected and not all alone and on my own in a world of strangers. which i still am of course.
M
yesterday my brother brought our mom over to my place around noon, to have a little e Easter celebration.
we ate some eastern goodies,mom played a bit of piano and we sat all three on the couch looking at one of the many photo albums of our joined past.
that was nice enough, and then we drove, the three of us, back to mom’s nursing home.
we arranged her room, putting flowers in a vass, her clean laundry in the wardrobe and just had a cosy time while she ate the lunch they had guarded and heated up for her.
they told my brother how well she is doing, being the best of the ward and helping out other people.
mom’s fingernails were painted bright red, which one of the nurses must have done, and mom was thrilled about it. it is a sweet thing that nurse did.
then we went for a long walk, mom admiring every big tree we walked by, many of them of course, these big straight ones, beeks I think is the English word, huge and with cathedrallike branches.
we did a good walk in the fresh breeze, for an hour or so, and met a few people mom knows, it was nice.
then we went to the cafetaria of the home, where upon leaving mom had to greet a lot of people she knew as well, and wave to others she did not really recognize.
I laughed about it when she wispered she had no idea who they were, and that she just waved, and I said I felt like I was walking around with the queen.
that made her laugh as well, and I called her the queen of the home, which inspired her to wave more royal like..
then she started singing an old song about a queen, the queen of Lombardia, and the verse went ‘and the queen, she waved and waved and waved…’ it was so funny, and endearing, it will remain such a warm memory of her, her spirit and good mood and courage and optimism.
my brother laughed as well when I said mom has a song for every occasion, amazing songs she comes up with from her young age, with al the words and she is so good at interpreting them with gestures and intonation, and a great sense of humor.
it also makes me sad, I don’t want to lose her, am so scared for that…
her phone is still not fixed, and I miss being able to call her.
april 24 it should finally be connected if all goes well..
the good thing is she seems more fit, an d more present in the situation, nice to talk with, even with the limitations. and very very sweet.
M
Patrick,
that was a very good comment.
very clear and honest and it explains a lot.
way to go wayward sheep.
M
I happened to run into the last part of a program about a girl, about 11 years old, who had been in a bad quarrel with a former girlfriend at school for the past 2 years, namecalling etc.
she was now baking a huge cake with all kinds of hearts and smarties and little puppets on it, for the other girl, as she wanted to try to make up and make peace.
the camera followed her up to the door of the other girl, who opened and was surprised, the first girl saying to the other one, who was still a bit insecure about what went on, that she had come wit a cake she made, to make up for all the times she had not been nice in the past years, and that she wanted was sorry about that.
the other girl laughed and uttered a bit of what sounded like a sob at the same time, but soon they were both inside and giggling and laughing.
it really touched me, brought me to tears.
I thought about how a true apology can finally make room and safety to allow that deepest layer of pain to be processed, while dissolving it.
i imagined a person I felt badly hurt by, to come up to me and say she was sorry, and knew , at least if it felt real and sincere, not like ‘I am sorry you felt hurt, which does not mean anything like an apology, but if a genuine sorry is made, a kind of healing can take place.
at the same time as allowing that last grief to evaporate, only leaving the memory of it, as a faint warning but not as pain or fear.
but well, in the case I think of I will have to accept it won’t come, but it was interesting to feel how the hurt just lays waiting there for possible resolution..
M
Thanks Margaret, I am moved by your kind and thoughtful words. They mean a lot to me.
I said a few days back I would go into some of the things I had been writing about in more detail, later. Here they are:-
1) I am way less frustrated, angered and feel less insulted than I used to be. Due to several insights over a period of time. The first of these was:- That I could not be insulted … I could only ALLOW myself to be insulted. The next item might demonstrate how that came about.
2) If and when someone was insulting or berating me for whatever reason. I was able to step back and see this was their feeling. Seeing it as their feeling began to make a lot of sense and I was able to get OUT of their obit. In other words … something is going on with them. I might have be the catalyst to their feeling, BUT I was not the cause.
(continuing)
3) The next was to just listen and not have a ready answer. This did take a longer time; since I was an inveterate talker. Always with a ready answer, often before the other person had finished speaking.
4) Struggling to achieve something made me realize I was approaching the problem from the wrong angle. If I were to pause for a second or two, I saw the possibility of trying to approach the problem from a different perspective. Over time this worked very well for me.
5) Being defensive. When I read “The Primal Scream” and read about defensiveness as being counter productive, I did subliminally recognize the reasoning; BUT getting into a position of being able, for the most part, (but not always); was the hardest, but in hindsight the most rewarding. The reality for me is; there is NOTHING to defend. I am, what I am.
(continuing)
Laughable, if it wasn’t so sad. Your self-delusion grows daily. Talk of insults is third level, thought focused, abstracted from feeling. The fact is, what you use your reasoning mind to reject as an insult, is something that HURT you. And with the usual response of a paranoid, you put it on to the person hurting you: it’s always THEIR feeling.
The bottom line: you’ve behaved badly here lately, like an arrogant, pompous ass. And you haven’t been in touch with your feelings – O Guru of the feeling world though you might be – enough to apologise. You just haven’t been man enough, Jack. Like I said, sad.
6) “Acting Out”. the first part in this endeavor was to know what was an act-out and what was a real feeling. The first was somewhat reactionary, and that was difficult to pause, and reflect upon. The second … just feeling it was more painful, BUT I did recognize it was the way to go. If I was serious about Primal Therapy, as I certainly was.
7) the last one, and one that I grasped after reading “The Primal Scream” for reasons that were due to a re-living experience way before I knew about therapy. AND that was knowing that Primal Therapy/Theory was a whole different realm from anything I had previously known, and it was;- there is this OTHER state of being. The feeling state … as opposed to the thinking rationalizing state; that had been the my way of life, from as far back a I could remember … up until that point.
I hope what I have written make sense, but primarily, it was to fulfill the promise I made earlier.
Jack
Jack, you never left the thinking state. You are a lifelong stay-at-home head tripper.
And the reason I’m so frustrated and angry with you is because, as Chris and I believe it was Leslie and others have pointed out recently, you are one big hearted, decent human being. I do like you Jack, I just don’t have a lot of respect for you at the moment, due to your blind arrogance.
The only thing I can say further is, have you considered what a huge opportunity you might be teetering on the brink of? If you are able to somehow put aside your vanity in the current situation, to accept initially that you have been hurt by the feedback, and then to have the courage to go deeper? Why am I so convinced it’s a huge opportunity? Because of the huge rejection you are exhibiting.
I wish you well, Jack. I just wish you would/could try a different tack, one that wasn’t coming from your prefrontal cortex.
Erron: Your first email to me pissed me off; and I deleted it immediately. This second one I feel is worthy of my responding. Should you wish to know why you “piss me off” I am stating it here-under.
(Continuing)
First off: YOU ARE NOT INSIDE MY HEAD. I feel, after 36 years of therapy I know myself.
I am not sure if you are a psycho therapist, but if you are I would NEVER consult you for any therapy.
I made a concerted effort to let everyone that responded to me; re-Patrick, know what was going with on me. You were all free to not believe me. I repeat: Patrick and I have been closely associated with one another for over 30 year. I know him well just as he knows me well.
I know him better than anyone on this blog.
(continuing)
It was my sincerest feeing (“belief” if you prefer) that ALL the comments to me were ‘more in order of each of your comfort than anything of any other relevance’; even though I read them all and gave pause before responding back.
You may well not belive that Patrick’s remarks did not touch me (to use your word ‘hurt’ me). that is entirely up to you and you are free to say so.
This brings up my final point to you. I saw in yours and Renee’s responses to me that you were both very Angry by the way I responded to ALL these ‘demands’ that I felt were being made of me. Not one of you stated you were angry and left me feeling you ALL felt “above” it all.
Since I “love” blogging I make a point of responding to every one that respods to me and some other as well … when ever I am inspired to do so.
Meantime, I do not ‘dislike you either Erron. Jack
Jack,you are locked inside the stone prison of your own denial. That’s all I have to say to you, since obviously all our efforts here to get you to have the simple courage to admit you might be wrong have been wasted. I have better things to do…
Erron: Fine if that is your take on me. The only question I have is:- on what authority do you ‘know’ I am “locked into [my] own denial”
That’s a very forceful statement.
Jack
.
It is interesting to note that Shane’s article very much applies to this situation in my view. While we all have pain I don’t believe that excuses the abusivness that exists in some of these responses. A discussion about the Holocaust is not at all off limits but the anger behind the comments we are reading could never lead to any meaningful discussion. I also believe it is not meant to be a discussion . Instead it is a rant and should you dare to disagree or point out the obvious weakness in the argument you can be certain that you will be called names and told that you know nothing. We also need to remember that while I agree people are free to say what they believe to be true that when they are communicated in this particular way they cause a great deal of hurt to others. Being asked to leave the blog is not something I take lightly. After months of allowing these comments to be printed I asked that it stop. But remember it was not only me that felt it should stop, I was receiving numerous calls and requests that an end be put to this behavior. It is odd to me that after months and months of expressing these views that there would be any crying or complaining about censorship. These theories have been clearly expressed and no one has any doubt about what they are. There are plenty of other places to express these views and in fact they have been clearly expressed here for months . Maybe it is time to focus on those that have been hurt by these comments.Over these many months I have seen many people reach out in the hope of understanding more fully what historical issues might be provoking this rage. I myself have written privately with my concerns. I have heard the stories about bullying and the feelings of being an outcast. Many of us have discussed how clearly these things now mimic the current situation. I am sympathetic to that but at the same time it can’t be a justification for the ugliness we are witnessing at times. Of course knowing a connection to ones past and actually feeling that connection are two different things. I have had numerous emails expressing shock at the homophobic slurs directed at Jack, the abusivness towards me and the anti Semitic rants. People have truly had enough of it. As for Jack …. well I am not saying that Jack does not ” poke” at Patrick and like Erron I wonder if there is a part of Jack that wants Patrick on the blog. I don’t know nor do I have any interest in comparisons. I just know there is a difference between that and the name calling . If you grew up Gay in this country then you know what it’s like to have words like Fag used. It’s very damaging. I also wince when I hear a man call a woman a bitch as I was . It is so disrespectful and frankly abusive. Lastly I will tell you the thing that made my decision one hundred percent clear. I asked myself if it was truly in this persons best interest to continue in this way. For me the answer was no. In fact the problem was escalating as evidenced by these latest comments. I advised, as Jack did, that the comments be stopped for a period of time and that a break from the blog would be best. He could contact me to return in a month. I think that was reasonable and I still believe it would be best. Gretchen
Gretchen – a lot of this sounds reasonable in a way though I don’t care for all the ‘behind the scenes’ feeling I get from it. People calling you I hope not the ADL or JDL or some of these groups whose business it is to ruin lives and turn lives into a living hell. Which they have done and they feel justified in doing. This to me is one of the insidious effects of ‘holocaust belief’ it fills peoples heads with ‘hate’ hate for things that mostly never happened and they are on a jihad of ‘never again’ and actually inflict so much suffering and pain on OTHER people because of their ‘beliefs’
Also the thing about ‘name calling’ that really does cut both ways. My biggest issue with you was/is exactly this that’s about all you ever did in response to what I was saying. You constantly tried to drop those labels on me ‘neo nazi’ ‘white nationalist’ ‘fascist’ ‘national socialist’. Please let’s not get into this again but it’s just pure ‘name calling’ You are outraged that you beliefs are challenged you never ever address it. Did you respond to that article about testicle crushing that is ‘Nurenberg justice’ no did not and you will not. But you WILL ‘ban’ someone who talks about it. I do contrast you actually with both Daniel and Renee who are both Jewish I think and who at least don’t freak out about this issue. Who meaningfully even engage about it. I respect and admire them for that but what I have seen from you is very different.
This thing about Jack ‘wanting’ me on the blog is to me a bit mild about what he does. It has been amazing to me the way he has been allowed to get away with crapping on me for years and years. Not this time as many others actually seem to see through it but the disrespect and judging and reflexive comments he makes to and about me are about as OPPOSITE to and ‘real feeling’ you can imagine. He has done it relentlessly for over 5 years now and ok you are correct in an ideal world I should not call him ‘fag’ etc but can’t you see i am provoked relentlessly and to use on of your words ‘hatefully’
Anyway I don’t know what to say from here I could gracefully shut up I suppose……………..that’s not really like me but maybe to all those ‘whisperers behind the scenes’ you might tell them what?……………………I am searching here well maybe aside and more important than the principle of Patrick being able to express his feelings how about maybe the REALITY of what he might be complaining about. That this country at least and it seems many other in the West are have been literally hijacked by Zionism we have plunged the world in war and misery and refugees all for and behalf of Zionism. Zionist did 9/11 in order to start this process and they continue with ‘hoax terror events’ all over Europe and here for more of the same. We murder and destroy whole countries for this demented people. A people who have become truly problematic for the whole world and seem to be driving to another World War. Don’t ‘reduce’ this to Patrick feeling he is just noticing and reacting to what is actually happening in the world and he has made some stabs at ‘understanding’ it and one thing he came up with is circumcision……………….is this a cultural habit to traumatize a whole people and Patrick is really just asking us to come back to a more Christian tradition and that is one specific right there. St Paul abhorred the practice and so did Christendom in general but now all that seems to be in reverse we are back to the habits of a murderous desert tribe and we are meant to shut up and think it is good for us. So tell them it’s a really really BIG picture and you like everyone else are just struggling to come to terms with it
Patrick: Before you get your “knickers in a truss” again. I feel it would be expedient to ponder why being quoted back, seemingly, irritates the shit outta you. I quote you so-as-to-let-you-know what I am referring to. That’s all If indeed you are hurt by it …. all I can add is:- that is your problem; not my intent.
(continuing)
Quote:- “But you WILL ‘ban’ someone who talks about it”. I feel Gretchen is reluctantly banning you, since many have asked her to do so. I get that Gretchen is not banning you for mentioning it (your word “expressing” it) but for being obnoxious in stating it, and seemingly, disturbing others on the blog. I grant this is the way I see it, and you have recently stated you meant to “Shame and hurt me”
(continuing)
Another:- “This thing about Jack ‘wanting’ me on the blog is to me a bit mild about what he does. It has been amazing to me the way he has been allowed to get away with crapping on me for years and years.”. Firstly; I don’t care either way, whether you stay or leave the blog. If you feel I am “crapping” on you … what would you suggest you were attempting to do to me when you first came on the blog … and have continued to do.
I grant you now admit you were trying to “shame and hurt me”. Since I categorically stated your comment did not ‘touch’ me in any other way, other than to respond to you. I respond to many things people write on this blog. I get pleasure at responding … not hurting anyone.
(continuing)
And yet another:- “the principle of Patrick being able to express his feelings how about maybe the REALITY of what he might be ” I feel that you are confusing two issues here. The first is:- you adamant belief that you have the facts and the rest of us don’t. I feel that is a super arrogance.
The second is:- Your refusal to even consider it has more to do with your opinion … rather than “the facts out there”
(continuing)
And now a fourth one:- “So tell them it’s a really really BIG picture and you like everyone else are just struggling to come to terms with it”
I partly answered this in the former part. However, Who’s “BIG picture”? and what makes you feel the rest of us are “STRUGGLING” with these same issues? I don’t see it that way.
Jack
Well it’s true I do see you ‘quoting back’ other people at times and I do think then ‘oh well that’s just his way of doing things’ like it’s not only personal to me which mostly I feel it is when you do it to me. I feel you are ‘judging’ me ‘grading my papers’ etc it seems silly also. This is supposed to be a ‘feeling’ blog it not something I put on a blackboard to be ‘graded’. it’s like you judge everything and I have to tell you the few times you give me a ‘good grade’ does not feel right either. I do not write here to pass some gauntlet of yours I write to say what is going on with me at any given time good bad or indifferent. Could be about politics myself whatever but ‘grading’ seems about the most pointless and crazy thing you are doing. It also re-enforces all kinds of ‘shoulds’ like talk this way not that way, talk about this not about that.We all have our own journeys often we ourselves have no real knowledge about why we say the things we do who are you to insert yourself between the person and their thoughts in this case me. I am aware that you are bored you never seem to read a book or anything you kind of hover around this blog and ok it works for you for whatever reason I would only ask if I am still allowed on here to let me be or at least a lot more than you do. It distorts what I say also I am ALWAYS anticipation an ‘attack’ from you whatever I write. This may loom too large in my mind sometimes I read an old blog and actually do you refrain from ‘grading’ more than I imagine you do but let’s face it you do an awful lot of it. And try to keep in mind whether you give me an “A” or an “F” both are pretty meaningless, actually I find the “A” even more condescending than the “F” Truthfully I want no grade at all I just want to talk in the way I want and what I want to talk about. On a personal note I was always ‘good in school’ and got lots of ‘A’s so now i would not not compete in that way
Patrick: If you feel I am “grading you” that is your feeling. It is not mine or my intend. I merely for the sake of blogging wish to comment on what you and others write. It’s a blog first and foremost.
I, and and have been for many years, aware that you got good grades at school.
Where it, you wished I did not reply to at all (to “leave you alone”) you should have thought about ALL that, before coming on this blog and blowing off about me. I get the feeling; though I could be wrong, that it is fine to attempt to shame and hurt me, “BUT oh no! you, Jack, do not have the right to hurt, grade or even respond to me, Patrick”.
The saying goes “what is good for the goose is good for the gander”
Jack
Jack,
As far as I can see this comment comes closest to some kind of reflection on your part about your responses to Patrick. About him coming on the blog. But is there any way to get through that and be done with it.
Engaging with him seems to help him to “blow off” more about you and keep him on the blog in endless cycles of the same thing. So it seems contradictory.
Well Jack Ronald Reagan’ famous quip come to mind “There you go again” Even at the time I ‘came on the blog’ seemingly to you some kind of ‘event’ that can never be atoned for (some kind of original primal scene that you hoard and see yourself as full or virtue kind of like primal therapy itself as misused constant victimization and self pity)Gretchen suggested a joint session and I agreed. You did not and even used the contemptuous phrase of basically ‘you couldn’t be bothered to spend the $60.00’ in spite of the fact I gave you $100K as a ‘retirement’ still $60 was beyond you) On the blog and inspired by David the Canadian guy I sincerely offered to ‘talk’ ‘meet’ or whatever privately and I stressed that part. You had no interest at all you said and added if you saw me on the street you would cross the road to the other side. Which I told you though I did not like it I had to accept it but then I wonder why if you would cross the street yet you comment and ‘grade’ me all the time. This of course gets into how ‘real’ any of this is. it seems to me you enjoy doing all this in public (exhibitionism?) but in reality have ho interest in “Peace” at all. Recently I actually wrote to you privately wanting some kind of “Peace” you did not reply. So either your memory is failing you badly and you are just a bare faced liar I will let that up to.you.
I mentioned in the private email how it does not feel right at all to go to our graves (we know not the date or the hour) just finishing up like this. I still say the same but I cannot force you to do anything and I suppose all this ‘rejection’ makes me wonder……………wonder who you really are and what you are made of. I think primal theory business is mostly just that a ‘theory’ and actually it seems if anything to have squeezed more life and spontaneity out of you than it put in. I find you comment above very disappointing it the attitude of keep the war going (like in Syria?) no peacemaking there at all just smart alec punch back. And like I said I brace myself in everything I write for some abuse from you which I usually get. Renee wondered if I felt ‘sage’ I absolutely do not with you around also you know a lot about my personal life I feel like I cannot comment on that much or you will be all over it like flies on shit. Not to blame you all the way my legacy of being bullied maybe makes me re-create it with you, also if I had not being bullied I would have ‘left’ you and hense ‘here’ a long time ago. But I do like it here in many ways and the early encouragement I got from some people here still rings in my ears a bit it was so unusual in ‘primal world’ which is mostly just negative and programmatic shit. So anyway Jack I am still fine with meeting you or a joint session or whatever and anything you feel comfortable with. But I do feel if you ‘reject’ me as I expect you will you should also ‘ignore’ me a lot more on the blog. Cross to the other side of the street as it were.
in relation to Renee’s question ‘sage’ should read ‘safe’
I feel corrected … yes you did offer to meet … and a joint session.
If you wish for a joint session and are willing to pay for it I will go for that.
Living on a half pension just about covers my expenses.
Jack
I guess I should not pass up a chance that may never come again. i do question why I should pay for it all more on a ‘principle’ here but just saying. I would not make that a deal breaker but I HAVE given you a lot of money! Something should be left over. As far as a ‘joint session’ I would actually prefer some local coffee shop where we could sit outside or something. Again I would not make that a deal breaker but it seems a bit childish and ‘retro’ to actually to a room at the PI and pay for it. Also would Gretchen be ok with that I could understand if she wasn’t. Anyway Jack I do like “Peace” for all my fighting deep inside I am a peacemaker if a very frustrated one
Patrick: if you are still willing to indulge a joint session at the Primal Institute: I am all game for that.
I am not game for meeting you at a coffee house or any other place. I don’t trust you. that simple.
I am asking you to pay for the whole session since I live on a half pension of way less than $1,000.00 per month that just about covers my expenses. The money’s you gave me for all the years that I did my best for the company; has now all been accounted for and I do not have ready access to that money currently.
Arrange a time and date, but before solidifying it check with me. For the most part I am available most of the time. The exceptions are when I need to go to the hospital to see my doctors.
Jack
OK I am not going to argue about it anymore. First off I need to check with Gretchen if it is ok with her. Presumably you see it here Gretchen you can say yes or no here if that is ok with you. Then I can follow up about times etc
Wow Gretchen!!! that was so very clear. I hope others see it as clearly as I (felt) I did.
Thanks for that Gretchen. Jack
My earlier response to Patrick seems to fit well here so I will repeat:
There is a Primal dilemma that always comes up. “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? But that is not how Primal Therapy works. It is a subtle process and we individually can handle only so much Pain at a time. We also need a “safe space” in which to feel. The Primal Institute must exercise sensitivity and judgement when encouraging or censoring behavior. They are in charge of the therapy they offer and the setting in which it takes place. Therapy is not a democracy. If you don’t agree with or like their approach or are frustrated by it, that is understandable. But you can’t have what you want. You only get what they give you.
Shane: You suggest I “don’t think you have any valid excuse for ignoring the well considered wishes on this list, that you not engage Patrick in this setting”. I adamantly disagree. I don’t feel that any of those remarks were “well considered” I felt (for what it is worth) they were all ‘shooting from the hip’. FOR, and I keep repeating; their own comfort on the blog. You can believe all you like that I am deluding myself. I also suggested that IMO if I chose to ignore him, as I had done many, many time in the past; Patrick was NOT going to go away or even stop his ranting both at me and others, and that includes Gretchen.
(continuing)
That said, I will go onto your impression;- “And my impression is that your Primal arguments are a manipulative strategy, along with others, to continue to provoke reactions and demand attention.” I have no problem with you voicing that. I do however, have an opinion about it. This, to me, is your feeling as I read you. NOT mine. They were a series of insights I had had over a long period of my 36 years in therapy. I thought they were worth posting … that is all.
In your next comment you say:- “Aren’t we supposed to express our feelings? Can’t we just say whatever we want? If it brings up feelings that’s the point isn’t it? ” Yes I totally agree with you here; AND for the rest you state in this particular comment.
Jack
Patrick……you are so stuck in this struggle with Gretchen! It is the same discussion/rant/blowing up that has been going on for how long now? I relate so well to long, drawn out and futile struggles. They are exhausting. I am picturing you on your deathbed still blogging about the evil Jews and Zionist plots. And then boom! That’s it! Life is over. A sad way to die. Here is some good shock therapy on this subject: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=urA82Z88WRA.
That is why I started wondering about what is motivating this struggle. A while ago, you agreed with me that when you talk to/about Gretchen or the Jews, you are really talking about parts of yourself. I asked you to explain. Silence. A few days ago, I asked you what you were needing from Gretchen/others on the blog, either before or when you are blowing up. Silence. I’m left wondering why you feel you cannot say more. Is it that you don’t feel safe? Is it being stuck in your comfort zone (of vilifying and being vilified)? Is it the addiction to the struggle? Is it the fear of being vulnerable? I know that I and others on this blog would still like to know.
No Renee I do not feel safe here at all. Jack in my mind at least is a major block like I just said to him even if I approach anything private he is likely to be all over it like flies on shit. Or at least that is my fear maybe he wouldn’t I suspect I might even get an “A” from him but that’s not what I want either. It’s like ‘feeling’ to him are some kind of public charade I know this cyber communication is iffy to begin with but for some and I am thinking of Jack it’s a perfect medium for him. So much self advetizing and unreality it’s only the integrity of the people that can be relied on (or not) I have thought a few times about starting my own kind of ‘primal’ blog but one of the guys I really wanted on does not have a computer! The other one was/is game they are both ex-primal people and are very interesting in the kind of stuff I am. We talk a few times a week so that’s nice. “here’ is something else for me I do believe in getting behind all the news of the day into personal matters and reactions but here i do feel very stymied to the point I can’t talk ‘politics’ (banning) or even personal stuff very much (flies on shit)
It seems to me that Patrick’s struggling here with us and Gretchen will continue indefinitely. Maybe the same for Jack’s struggle with Patrick.
Phil
Phil: I repeat: I have no struggle with Patrick. IF your analysis of me is otherwise, so-be-it I enjoy responding to him. I do not set out to hurt him. If he is hurt by my responses that is something I can NOTHING about.
You are free to NOT believe me. That is your prerogative.
Jack.
Jack,
If not a struggle, a pattern of interactions with Patrick. Not an analysis, an observation.
Patrick says something, you poke him, he has a reaction, a lot of insults go flying both ways. Do you deny that?
It’s fun for you, but Patrick says it hurts him. This is blogging?
I recall him saying he was willing to work to resolve these issues between you two, but you refuse, you don’t reflect on it either. Something is going on, if not a struggle, and as you’ve been hearing I’m not the only one seeing this.
Phil
Jack,
It seems true that you readily put all questioning aside with rationalizations about your interactions with Patrick. Here are some of the ways you seem to do it: we are just trying to make the blog comfortable for ourselves, we are not stating our feelings, it is blogging and you are having fun, you know Patrick best etc.
I thought your reflections would address some of the comments but instead you told us about the skin on the back of your hands. It all seems to be ways to avoid the points that have been brought up.. Maybe what you were trying to say with all that is you are getting old and we should leave you alone, and let you be. Is that what you want? It is a therapy related blog and I thought you were dedicated to the process. I’m sure it’s unpleasant and I wouldn’t like these things being said to me, so I can understand that.
It’s not the first time I’ve commented on this, but the first time that many said something about it at the same time. Maybe because it’s so obvious when, in theory, Patrick has been banned, yet it continues.
My own feelings on it are frustration and annoyance. Not so much that I can’t ignore it, but it’s worth commenting on.
Phil
Phil: Fine … I accept that is your observation.
I used to poke Patrick; I have not done that for sometime … I stated and used the word “Poke” in the Facebook sense. I merely respond to Patrick. I don’t see anything wrong or misplaced in that.
I agree that a lot of insults go flying. I do contend however, that I do not counter with insults. If indeed you see it that way so-be-it.
I do not recall Patrick EVER stating that he is willing to work with me.
To the best of my feelings/thinking I did address EVERY comment made to me. However, seemingly, that did not address it (I feel) the way you’s all, wanted me to address it, IMO.
(continuing)
My blogging about the state of my health was in not any attempt on my part to distract from those responding to me over that matter. It was merely my reflection upon myself as I currently am. A completely other post.
I am very dedicated to Primal Therapy and very happy there is this blog to post to.
That many responded to me … I felt very strongly I did responded. I did however, feel that many wanted me to respond the way they felt/thought, I out to respond.
As I feel you are very aware, there is a psychology of “ganging up” when situation have a general consensus. I feel the 2016 election here in the US was a case in point. I don’t feel many voted for Trump … I feel they voted against Hilary Clinton.
Jack
Jack,
I haven’t been influenced in my thoughts and feelings about you by what others have said here.
It could be of value to see that many feel the same way and ask yourself why, rather than to see it as ganging up against you.
Phil: As I know you know … “Ganging up” on someone or thing; is a psychological phenomenon.
I could well be wrong; but I see the desire to “gang up” when there is a sense of agreement from those doing the ‘ganging up’.
It’s like they have found some common agreement.
I am aware however that you stated you responded to me in-spite of others stating something similar.
I can accept that and live with it.
I neither feel I am struggling with Patrick, nor provoking him OR even affected by his responses to me. I wonder why there was not the same responses to Patrick both when he first came on the blog … and since. It’s a blog and blogging, from my experience, is about argument and counter argument. People, and myself blog from the pure desire to blog. I don’t see blogging as a struggle. It’s a pure feeling to respond to other and perhaps to see other points of view.
While this is a feeling blog I am not sure that it deviates from most other blogs that I have encountered. Another way to state is is “Point and counter point”.
Jack
Gretchen, once again I agree with the content and logic of your message to Patrick. The problem is that this approach does not work with Patrick as he is not coming from a logical place. Not only does it not work, it gives Patrick permission to keep the focus away from where it so clearly needs to be, which is on what is motivating his behavior. As you so clearly say, “the anger behind the comments we are reading could never lead to any meaningful discussion”. I am left wondering the following things: Why do you continue to address the content of his messages? Why do you not direct your comments to Patrick directly (so that you are not ‘preaching to the choir’)? What is stopping you from actually ‘banning’ Patrick from this blog (if you feel that this would be helpful)? And is there something in your own personal history that could be stopping you from trying a different approach? Or something in your personal history motivating you to keep the same response? Just curious.
P.S. I have very mixed feelings about ‘banning’ someone. On the one hand, this is only a blog, it’s not like banning him from something like using the bathroom, seeing friends/family or living his life. On the other hand, ‘banning’ someone leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. My uncle was banned from South Africa in the 1980s for his political activities. Countries that ban people are always scary countries.
Renee: I wonder at your response to Gretchen. On what authority do you base all this?
Just curious. Jack
On what authority, Jack? Just my feelings. That’s all.
Renee: that make a great deal of sense to me. I do feel there is “no arguing” with another’s feelings. Tanks for this response.
Jack
Renee, I have seen every approach to Patrick with Gretchen. Nothing works. And because so many of us have asked Gretchen about the problems with him she is forced to talk to us because he cannot listen. Many times we all have urged him to seek help from somewhere, anywhere. Nothing gets through. We encouraged him to reach out to family and friends to help with what worries him. As you say, life is short. But on the other hand, someone with compulsions and anxieties is driven by them and no here and now advice will penetrate, but it was a good video you linked on the mindfulness topic anyway.
S
Sylvia, I disagree with you. I disagree that Patrick cannot listen. I have experienced him as listening to me. And I disagree that Gretchen has tried many approaches. Perhaps I am wrong, but I have only seen the rational, logical and content-based approaches, used over and over again, in different ways, and ways that make Patrick the ‘other’. I’m glad you liked the video. I’m surprised I posted it, since I am allergic to mindfulness! But it seemed appropriate.
Mothered and not othered
I will agree with you Renee, Patrick has listened to me a couple of times too–it does happen.
I will leave it to Gretchen to go over her own reams and binders of answers to Patrick to fish out her varied approaches.
S
Strange to me Renee that you feel it important to reach Patrick here. Why not continue your rescue mission elsewhere privately?
We have put up with way too much abuse for way too long!
L
I’m have to disagree with you on this one, Leslie. I really think Renee and Patrick are having a nicely productive dialogue & Patrick’s not aiming his verbal guns at the rest of us for the moment, so why not see where it leads?. Maybe they will work something out or maybe we will all understand something better together? Partitioning such information away from here only leads to less understanding & more alienation overall, in my view.
Do note that my post above does not imply tacit approval of Patrick’s verbal abuse; I was raising an entirely different matter in spite of my careless & sloppy typos.
Renee, I’m wondering if you have only periodically been on the blog? It feels to me that you have missed a lot . You asked why I had not banned Patrick…… I did. So I am confused as that is largely what some of Patrick’s recent rants have been about… being banned. I believe banning is a term that WordPress uses but actually in Patrick’s case I only asked that he take a break for a month and then speak to me. Is that so scary? As I said I truly believe that was a decision in Patrick’s best interest. I have said multiple times over this last year that I am very concerned which I think he can verify. I do believe my last two longer posts on this subject and Sylvia’s response address your other questions but just in case I was not clear I will try to make my thoughts more precise. You are concerned that only content is being addressed. This has been going on for at least a year. There have been many questions on the blog from myself and others about the historical connections. Why would you assume otherwise? Do you really think that no one would have thought to ask how this resembles his past either on the blog or privately ? Do you not think that people have expressed serious concern about the rage behind these issues? His answer was to describe the scene he discussed with you and several other scenes of similar nature. Do you recall your surprise when you asked why Patrick was at it again after discussing these painful memories? Well we have all had that experience multiple times….over months not days. As for addressing Patrick directly…. of course I have done that. It is only recently that I have directed my comments to the group and not to Patrick. Why? Because I was asked to address these issues on the blog vs ignoring them. As for trying a different approach…this is the different approach Renee. As you point out he is not coming from a logical place so why would I approach him directly if he can’t hear what is being said? You feel Patrick can hear you. Good, we have all felt that from time to time that is until we disagree. The difference between me and you in this situation is you are focused on one persons pain. I am focused on each individual and the group as a whole. The group as a whole, both on and off the blog have asked that this be stopped. Most poignant of all perhaps was Daniels plea that Patrick’s comments about Jews and the Holocaust be stopped but he was certainly not the only one. In fact I don’t know if I can even remember anyone who did not ask that at some point or another. Ironically maybe Jack was the exception. Partly because this is what happens… the comments are so extreme, so vitriolic that they become the focus of the blog. That is partly the intent of course. But when you are listening to someone say that you are lying ( basically) if you claim your whole family was killed in the Holocaust then maybe you should have the time and safety to discuss it I think. As for Jack and Patrick… these are two people with a long history and many feelings but I don’t see Patrick as a victim of Jacks. If you look back on the blog you will see a very equal amount of provoking in my opinion. That is for them to work out or not. Lastly, Patrick’s claims of name calling. Shaming you might call it. I have never addressed one of Patrick’s mentors as a neo Nazi or white supremacist who did not at one point claim that title as their own. It is simply the facts. Lastly I will remind you that years went by with Patrick criticizing the therapy we are all here to do not to mention at times ridiculing those that chose to do it. He was given the space to say whatever he wanted, he was not censored or banned. This situation has crossed lines that most feeling people would clearly recognize. I hope I have answered your questions or concerns. Gretchen
Gretchen – I realize this is written to Renee and I don’t want to ‘bogart’ it but I would like to make one thing clear. You say
“I have never addressed one of Patrick’s mentors as a neo Nazi or white supremacist who did not at one point claim that title as their own. It is simply the facts.”
Now this is simply and clearly NOT the facts. Dr Kollerstrom who have been my main avatar many times has said and I do believe him he was a member of the Green Party in England, he was involved in anti Iraq war demonstrations, he was if anything “Left Wing” not “Right Wing”………………..that why he was so shocked and amazed to be condemned as “Far Right” and neo Nazi etc etc. He is English and says over and over he is not here to promote National Socialism or whatever. His politics were/are similar to mine I have always been against “Right Wing” but this issue crosses all these divisions. As he says it is a matter of science can or were human gas chambers even a physical possibility let alone an actuality. He is clear they were not either.
Similarly the other big influence and a ‘hero’ in getting out the truth Germar Rudolp. He is German and has constantly said he has nothing to with reviving Nazism. He says it was a feature in ‘history’ and the times are different now. In fact both have stressed NOT to confuse ‘neo nazi hankerings with the real and serious truth of history. So enough from me but I have a hard time letting stuff like this go. One little inaccuracy leads to another and another and you end up with a real dog’s dinner as we used to say. And ‘standard’ history on this matter is truly a dog’s dinner. Thank God for the likes of Kollerstrom and Rudolp for straightening some of it out a bit
Gretchen: I have just re-read your response to Renee and I had to keep going back and forth between what you were responding to what Renee had said. Maybe it is my memory that is failing me (which to some extent it is) However, one of the reason that I like using quotes and quote marks is in order to let the reader see exactly what I am referring to. For me and my flailing 🙂 (sorry failing) memory, that would be very helpful
It is for this very reason that I wonder why I got as much flack as I did. The worst I ever consistently responded to Patrick was, by using the word “quote” and quote marks, The exception were never what he said about me or about you, but what he did to others that obviously hurt them; the other was his disparaging the therapy and/or Art Janov.
(continuing)
So!!! quote:- “Ironically maybe Jack was the exception.”
I am confused as to why that is ironic. However to be clear, I did not think it was in anyway offensive or hurt me. Just curious.
Another:- “As for Jack and Patrick… these are two people with a long history and many feelings but I don’t see Patrick as a victim of Jacks.” It was/is my feeling that most were trying to tell me was that I deliberately and viciously trying hurt Patrick; OR perhaps actually believing that I if stopped responding to Patrick, that somehow we would get bored and leave the blog. I feel very strongly that was not the case. For Patrick, as I see and know him, that is NOT his M.O.
(continuing)
Last one:- “I will remind you that years went by with Patrick criticizing the therapy we are all here to do not to mention at times ridiculing those that chose to do it”. This is the major reason IMO why most became upset with Patrick’s comments. However, I felt few actually said just that. Just my feeling … I felt that I eventually became an ‘easier’ target than Patrick; BUT … I could well be wrong.
Though, I feel some people are maybe upset by my recent comment about my insights; I do wonder why stating them is upsetting … unless they are picking up something behind them. I wish, if that was the case, they might be specific as to what it is they are picking up. Shane did to some extent, express that.
My inability to post a long comment is a bit of a bore. Sorry if anyone finds that irritating..
Jack
Jack,
We could go back months or even years to time after time when you were poking Patrick, or whatever you are now calling it, to me, endless crazy insult filled interactions, some of which he probably provoked as well. Where you also exposed each others personal affairs in totally inappropriate ways, as I saw it.
I guess all that is just easily forgotten. If there are “victims”, it’s the rest of us having to witness it all here on the blog. I hope there can be some kind of resolution or truce worked out between you two.
Phil
Phil: First off; it is not my ‘won’t’ to NOT respond. If that is a fault in me, so-be-it.
I am picking something up with this last comment of yours. I will endeavor to explain exactly, and as clearly as I can, what it is I am picking up on. As I stated to Gretchen … I feel that I am an easier target than Patrick. What I mean by that is I feel anyone getting at Patrick is more than likely to get a lot of flack back and most of us do not like that, and many of us re-act with counter insults. (I am not immune to that either). I sense that most feel I am a major, if not the most major, problem.
(continuing)
Let me state YET AGAIN my use of the word “poke” was the same as it is used in Facebook. In other words, it is a response (not necessary pleasant) to someones comment. I never started anything with Patrick … as far as I am aware. If my memory serves me correctly I ignored Patrick’s rants towards me for many weeks, when he came onto the blog. My ignoring Patrick (as I see and know him) is:- the more I ignored him the greater became his desire to shame, insult and hurt me. I sensed that Patrick was not getting the effect he wanted, and hence made an even bigger attempt to “get at me”. If most disagree with that assessment; so-be-it.
(continuing)
I am aware that most HOPE there can be some resolution between Patrick and I and I have finally decided, if he will pay for it, to have a joint session at the Institute (against my Jimbo’s wishes). However. it is my ‘prediction’ that even if there is a major reconciliation between Patrick and I; it will not stop Patrick from continuing on this blog to ‘get at the therapy’, to get at the rest of us, for not seeing it his way; as he’s been doing for months. He’s found a forum to vent his ideas. I don’t see him stopping.
To put it more succinctly:- if only Jack would do as we ask him to do; that would make us all more happy. To and for me … that is not what I feel will be the end result.
Ok Phil; hopefully you’ll see more of where I am coming from. Jack
Jack,
I wasn’t around on the blog when Patrick first arrived; but I’m understanding it’s quite a few years ago.
I think it would be helpful for you, Patrick, and the blog if there is some kind of reconciliation. It’s not that I’m expecting Patrick to quiet down or leave the blog because of this. But there would be an improvement in that there wouldn’t be the continual flare-ups between the two of you, if that is possible.
I have given up on Patrick some time ago as far as debating his topics or his motivations,
so because of that he isn’t a target for me. But you don’t represent some kind of substitute target.
Just speculation but his anger might have something to do with with the Institute, Janov, and the therapists. You are a loyal and successful primal adherent who knows him a long time, so I guess you are included in that. All of it having to do with lower than expected success and help from therapy, for whatever reason, no doubt also triggering historical stuff. Or maybe it’s something else entirely but it’s up to Patrick to explore and find out, or get some other kind of assistance.
I think everyone can see that he lacks credibility as a source so there’s little point in debating with him, except so as to satisfy and express feelings he triggers.
Phil
Phil
Phil: In your previous post you said, and I quote:- “If there are “victims”, it’s the rest of us having to witness it all here on the blog.” I am very aware that not only you, but others feel things would be easier for all if only I was to stop responding to Patrick.
Other than if he does manage to get a joint session; I will make this commitment to NOT respond to Patrick until this matter is settled one way or another. Hope that satisfies your desire on this matter. Then we can see if indeed everyone feels better.
Jack
Sorry: 6th line should have read “he” not ‘we”
Thanks for sharing your perspective, Leslie. I don’t feel that I am trying to rescue Patrick. I think I’ve shared what I feel my “dog in the fight” is and the ways that I identify with Patrick. But if I’m wrong and I am on a rescue mission, what do you think I am trying to rescue Patrick from?
That sounds like a question with an agenda Renee. But maybe I am wrong. G.
Gretchen, the place I’m coming from with this question is this: often when we are trying to rescue someone it is not about the person we are trying to rescue, it is about wanting to rescue ourselves from feeling something painful. I don’t think that is going on with my messages to Patrick, but perhaps I am wrong (as I said). That is why I wanted to see what Leslie would say to this. I like and trust Leslie. However, at the same time, I think there was more going on for her behind her comments to me. But that doesn’t mean I can’t learn something from her comments. That’s all.
Renee: I looked back on the blog and found your response to Leslie April 17 2017 @ 3:13 pm.
Gretchen’s response to you:- dated April 17 2017 @ 3:19 pm
You responded April 17 2017 @ 3:31 pm … back to Gretchen
I am not sure if this was what you were referring to.
Jack
I had a possibly incredible insight today. too tired to write about it.
well it came to me as i finished buying a pack of donuts and diet pepsi from the cute latina lady in her taco truck. i walked away and said to myself, well i can’t get pain relief that way (her), so then donuts and coke. of course, it is impossible to explain now what i realized. something about my mom feeding me, as mothers do, and that being so very very important in a baby’s life. the other connected idea was that, at 10 months of age when i lost my mom, that the birth i had 10 months earlier was still fairly recent, and definitely was, i cant find the words, maybe it was still a big presence in my cells or brain or skin. still being held closely and bottle or breast-fed, not sure which, just another stage of the womb, only just outside of it. just some organic feeling like you would feel if you took acid.
and the other thought was, how when i laid ih the bassinette weeks or months later at my cold aunt ahd majac uncle’s house, having been ripped away from my mom at 10 months, waiting to be fed, a bottle i guess, and how that was a main connection with my mom, and how she fed me in the womb with her blood or whatever, i developed a (baby) fantasy or obsession(?) with wanting to get back ihside her womb, back to safety. and i have said that before, either in group, or on the blog, or session, about wanting to crawl back in and start over, so i think there is something to this. i started to feel this starvation 2 retreats ago. i really have an eating problem, as a means to comfort me and bring the pain down to a non-psycho level.
the other thing i thought was that when i reached adolescence, it was like this big change, just like the change when i was ripped away from my mom. i think i was triggered by my terror at 10 months, now at age 13. i became obsessed with sex (maybe a little more than normal boys), and because i was unable to get back to my mom at 10 months, i was now afraid of girls, or shied away from them as a budding teen. also playing into that, i was almost getting back to normal in the 5th grade, after a traumatic move 2 years earlier, but now possibly even flirting with a girl, but instead of going to the 6th grade summer camp and 6th grade in the fall, i found myself in millitary school (really big change) where the only females were old and vicious. well anyway, something like that. didnt get sex till 24, what a nightmare for years that was, no touching of girls at a time my body said i should be touching girls. just fantasies, no kiss, only a few dates that i had no idea what to do with. pain pain pain twinkies and other hostess pain killers. and then drugs and booze.
Otto: I not sure if anyone else feels the same as I do BUT I feel you are making great progress, especially these last few comments of yours.
I wish you well.
I just wonder, have you ever thought of giving up the junk food Just curious.
In my own case giving up smoking was one major one for me and when I finally did I had nightmares about it for over a year. My other one was sex addiction and that took way more time.
Old habits die hard … as the saying goes.
Jack
Otto,
I can so relate to what you wrote here. Middle School and High School were terrible years for me, and when I started with college. I didn’t ever go to any school social events. I was so shy and couldn’t talk to any girls, and I didn’t. I was too afraid and that pretty much continued and was why I entered therapy at age 21. I thought I’d never be able to go on dates or have a girlfriend. Maybe true if I never started with this therapy.
All of this was caused by the loss of my mother, and also how she treated me while she was around, the short time I had her and the fact that I never got any adequate mother replacement. And you had your mother an even shorter time.
Phil
this insight followed on the heels of me screaming my anguish in group about the impossibilty of me and girls for so many long hard years, adolescence and later. i left out the part where i had a little 3rd grade girlfriend, and as said above, a traumatic move that tore me away from her. listen buddy, i think those dice were rigged! get another pair and roll again!
Otto, it does look like you got snake eyes, the double whammy. Military school must have been awful without the comfort of family. Probably are many feelings from then I would think. Good for you for having the insights. Looks like breakthroughs for you.
S
Thank you, Shane, for allowing Barry to post your message on this blog. I was so moved by your heartfelt and pain-filled words. Your brutal honesty and vulnerability was like a breath of fresh air.
Renee, I’m glad it touched you. I’m not embarrassed by my Pain. Just sad it exists.
This is a ‘joke’ ok please don’t take this that serious but it occurs to me this guy Alex Jones makes millions from doing this. The guy he is referring to is Adam Schiff a Democrat Congressman from California who was/is in charge of this business about Russia hacking the election. It reminds me also when I came to therapy there was a guy running a ‘business’ where he would call and scream at someone if he was paid to do it. He was a primal guy Irish background but American if I remember correctly
Thank you all for your kind comments, insights and affecting responses to my letter to Barry about the worst Pain I have ever felt.
When I say; “It is the worst.” I speak from 30 years of experience in Primal Therapy and I am not just “caught up in the feeling.” This was definitely the worst feeling I have yet felt.
I believe that is specific and personal to me.
My identity, my sense of self-worth, has always been deeply tied to being “good” and a “nice person.”
For someone else, that may just “be bullshit.” And that would be totally accurate. Why should anyone else feel the way I do?
Worst feeling ever? “Not for me!”
What lies at the deepest levels of Pain for anyone, will be unique to them, unique to their journey, what they have been through, how they coped.
For me, I needed to be a “good boy” in the worst way.
If I’m not a “good boy” I’m fucked. Doomed.
I don’t even know what “fucked” or “doomed” means. I just know in my heart of hearts it’s really bad and I don’t want to go there.
And if it’s anything like where I’ve been, I don’t want to go there.
Shane: Great comment about yourself.
I liked best:- “For someone else, that may just “be bullshit.” And that would be totally accurate. Why should anyone else feel the way I do?” Why indeed?
Jack
Shane,
I’m glad you’ve come on to the blog. That is terrible stuff you’ve shared about in your letter, and I can see why you would say it’s the worst pain you’ve ever felt. I’m glad it’s come out so that you’re dealing with it. This therapy is such a difficult and painful process, isn’t it?
Phil
Otto,
seems like breakthrouhgs indeed.
what you wrote about the skin touch and the comparison with an acid trip made sense to me.
it seems like a difference between being wide open and letting the world in compared to dulled hopeless being more closed down in an attempt to cope with the pain of changed reality
it seems like you might be regaining some of your awareness
Hey Jack, When I said “ironically Jack might be the exception” I meant that despite the fact that there have been problems between you and Patrick that you were one of a very few who did not request that Patrick take a break from the blog. I do agree with much of what you have written. I don’t think Patrick would have left whether you said anything to him or not. I also noted that you often respond to people ( if not always) by putting the relevant comment in quotes. I know that Patrick seemed to feel you were baiting him by doing that but you did do that as a matter of course with almost everyone. Are you an easier target then Patrick? Well, I do hope that neither of you are a target at all but yes there is truth in that. I know that several people have been afraid of the way in which Patrick can attack in such a personal way when confronted. Ultimately we are all responsible for our own choices so no I don’t think it is you that created the problem with Patrick or that he would have behaved differently if you were not here. That being said…….. ( ha ! there is always a caveat ) . I went back and looked at previous comments and I would say there were times you seemed to be wanting a reaction. I would also say that it seemed Patrick was addressing you first more often then not. But that is where it gets a little crazy. We don’t want to be figuring out who hurt who more often. I know you feel that Patrick started the problems by attacking you on the blog to begin with. Okay but maybe we have to let that go and examine what feelings are being triggered now. I imagine that as much as you believe in this therapy that it has to be difficult to hear the constant criticisms. Maybe that’s the issue, I don’t know. Or maybe it has something to do with a comment you made about being overlooked at the job when Patrick left ( if I understood correctly). The other possibility is maybe you just don’t like him. That does happen of course. So my point is that while I agree with much of what you have written I do think there are some feelings to explore. I trust that you will decide if that is true or not. The last thing I would say is it might be worth exploring if it hurt your feelings to get all of that feedback at once. Some of it was harsh possibly and clearly you felt some of it was an unfair characterization. If that is the case I think that’s all you need to say. Gretchen
Gretchen I am so happy that you took the trouble to answer me. I did have an agenda in doing so. It was that after so many responses to me; suggesting that I ought to do as they felt fit. I began to feel I did not trust most of them and so I turned to you since I trust you implicitly. I worked hard and thought about each, before responding. I tried hard to be clear as I knew how; but I eventually began to realize I was in a struggle to get my perspective across … not a struggle with Patrick … of that I was certain.
(continuing)
So this response of yours gave me a lot to think about and some sense that I was NOT losing it. I do, as of this writing, don’t dislike Patrick entirely. I just see him as a lost and sad person. I find him resenting me because he saw me as a fanatic towards the therapy, whilst he had started to have great reservations about it … climaxing eventually (as I saw it) feeling he could make this therapy better and more efficient. I saw that as his blind arrogance. On the matter of him not letting me on the new ownership in hindsight I am pleased about that since I feel that would have given me more headaches than I wished for. I sort of subliminally felt that at the time.
(continuing)
As you may have noted from my last response to Phil; I have decided tho completely refrain from responding to Patrick until such times as there is some resolution to it all, however that may come about. So Gretchen; thanks again and I will re-read your response several times more. Hoping I see a little more about myself.
Jack
Gretchen: I have re-read your comment to me three more time after thinking a great deal about it for most of the evening after going to bed. As of this moment the major problem I had was:- in struggling to get my ‘perception’ across. However, the possibility that I was hurt by the barrage of comments is a huge possibility and I will endeavor to look further into that. (I did not see them as attacks, as I did recognize they were trying to help me … but also with their agenda). So for the moment I will continue to explore other feelings going on with me.
Reason: that’s Therapy.
Jack
Gretchen: I have read your response to me two more times, and I suddenly realized that in the last two senteces you wrote:- “Some of it was harsh possibly and clearly you felt some of it was an unfair characterization. If that is the case I think that’s all you need to say. Gretchen”
I agree … that is exactly what I should have done So!!! I will do it now
Renee, Shane, Margaret, Larry and Phil: “I thought you all were very unfair, and further somwhat unjust.
Jack
I meant in this last post to add Erron … but forgot.
Jack
Yes, I noted that, and I have to tell you I was very hurt 🙂
🙂
Erron: Fine
Jack
Jack,
I’m sorry you feel I was very unfair in what I said. It seemed important for me
to mention.
Phil
Phil: That ok It’s just my feeling as of now
I do wonder:- what did you feel about me deciding to refrain from responding to Patrick until something is settled. Just curious
Jack
Jack,
I’m very glad you’ve made the decision to try to settle something with Patrick. To refrain from responding to him n the meantime makes sense to me as well. It all seems like a worthwhile positive development.
Phil
Thanks Phil.
Jack
I can understand how you might feel that way Jack, and if you don’t want feedback from me then I will shut my mouth as I usually do. However you have in the past invited people to share with you their insights of you that might be helpful to you. So if you think my offering to you was off the mark, then I’m not going to argue with that.
Larry: I appreciate that you understand how I might feel. I do appreciate all the feedback I get and I am NOT suggesting that you stop. However, you suggesting I was:- “Harassing such a person is perverse, in my opinion.” did strike me as odd, since I feel “Perverse” has sexual connotations. In hindsight I feel it was somewhat harsh. That is all Larry.
Jack
And as I said at the time Jack, perverse was an excellent usage of the word. You are so fond of telling us all it is “just our feeling”. On this occasion your reaction to the use of an inert but descriptive English word is a perfect example of it being “just YOUR feeling”.
Erron: I read you.
Jack
That is interesting Jack. To me “perverse” doesn’t necessarily have sexual connotations and wasn’t in my thinking when I wrote it.
Once in group I felt that a bunch of people piled up on me unfairly and unjustly, though in reality they probably weren’t being as severe as I felt they were. I decided not to argue with them about it, but decided to assume they were trying to be helpful though it felt hurtful, and wondered why they misunderstood me and what they were picking up on. Now, many primals and evolutions later, I think what they were reacting to is that I am so busy just trying to emotionally survive and meet my needs that I have little energy or emotional space left for people, especially when I’m in groups. Them telling me what they did, didn’t do me much good at the time, except piss me off and hurt me. But I also felt they must care about me enough to tell me there was something about me that frustrated them, as if they wanted me to be less needy afraid me and more confident me, if that makes sense.
Larry: Makes great sense.
Jack
Gretchen: “Ultimately we are all responsible for our own choices…” strikes me as a statement riddled with far too many flaws for me to comprehensively discuss during my lifetime. Otherwise, have fun with Jack!
Hi Renee,
I too enjoyed our times and connection last summer!
I said I see you on a rescue mission for Patrick as after so much time, so many utterly disgusting
& hateful posts, repeated attempts to reach him out of concern for his own safety and sanity, numerous requests to stop posting his degenerate heroes’ quotes and videos – Patrick would not/could not stop posting on the blog.
Gretchen was forced by so many peoples’ and her own concerns to finally ban him – and this is when you swoop in – that you can reach him…
You suggest that you relate to his struggles – but here is the big difference Renee – you have chosen and choose to do what you can with therapy. You appear motivated to get better. And that is what I see with most of the people, including myself in being here.
Patrick on the other hand proclaims he is ‘the best’ already. Patrick truly gets off on continually putting everyone here except you perhaps – for now that is – down.
Patrick makes horrid anti – Semitic, racist, homophobic, misogynistic remarks and then exclaims how that that is not who he is. Unfortunately, that is exactly who he is and hence a ban to establish the boundaries that he lacks is necessary.
L
I think the ban is ultimately for the good of Patrick.
Hi Leslie, my favorite buddy of all time. I don’t think you realize that I am in full agreement with what you say about many of Patrick’s posts being abusive, violent, hateful and horrific. And I don’t think you remember, but I have also called for Patrick to take an enforced break, since he has been unable to take a voluntary break.
I just have not agreed with Gretchen’s ways of trying to address this problem and believe that that could be why this has continued for so long. I would like to respond to Gretchen’s last message to me, because it helped me to get clearer on specifically what I disagreed with. Unfortunately, I cannot find it. Perhaps it got deleted or I missed it and am just too tired to look for it for the fourth time. If it did get deleted, I hope it gets re-posted.
You assume that I am different from Patrick because I seem motivated to get better and Patrick doesn’t. I don’t share this assumption about Patrick. I assume that Patrick is not in control when he blows up. Also, I remember all too well the assumptions that were made about me in my early years of therapy at the Institute when I was not in control of my behavior and words. It actually felt very scary, even though I could not articulate that feeling at the time. And I remember frequently being responded to angrily, dismissed, judged as not wanting to get help, written off, and othered. When I see this happening to someone else and I don’t speak up (which happens sometimes), I feel awful about myself. So maybe what you interpret as me rescuing Patrick,is really just me rescuing myself from feeling awful. One more thing……I think that if we grew up with a parent or sibling that was abusive and violent, that will shape, to some degree, our reactions to Patrick.
Renee, her replies to you are above, you should be able to search for “April 17, 2017 at 2:20 pm”, for the long one, or “April 17, 2017 at 3:19 pm” for the short one, which you did respond to already.
Thanks for your reply Renee. I am relieved to hear you also see Patrick’s posts as “abusive, violent, hateful & horrific.”
Patrick is not a new patient however – he has had years to become conscious of what he projects. Gretchen worked with him privately and protectively – not just on the blog. Gretchen would have provided expert healthy guidance and care – from all angles before making the decisions she has.
You still see hope for him – I don’t – as although I have seen miracles happen when people strive to get well – not so much when they refuse.
L
Renee,
A good goal would have been just to get Patrick to use the blog in a more normal way, different than the way that he does, so that it can be more useful for the rest of us. All of us have struggled with him at one point or another on this point and/or have been a victim of his abusiveness.
As far as I know Patrick isn’t even in therapy or want it, so it’s hard for me to see where your expectations for Gretchen are coming from.
He does get a lot of attention, which is probably what it is about, and now he’s been getting from you, when , in theory, he’s not supposed to be on here.
Phil
I just caught up with everything here.
Jack, you keep saying that it wouldn’t make a difference to Patrick’s being here, and you are correct, but it would make a difference to me, because you and he have been fighting for years, and I am tired of seeing you-and-him, back-and-forth, all the time. I find your “pleasure” to be a pain. It feels bad, like the hopelessness of my childhood family life, recreated. A lot of angry bitterness, but not always what I feel or want to communicate. But here it often has felt like I am having to take a bath in it.
Erron said, “Jack, it has to be asked: why do you want Patrick on this blog? He has been banned and yet you continually bait him and invite him to come back and participate.” and you replied “Erron: I am not absolutely sure why I continue to bait Patrick. …” so please think about that, when you are able.
Overall, I found I did not like the incredible crap that Patrick has again been slinging, insulting Leslie, Jack, Gretchen & Chris by just vomiting anger on all of them, telling Gretchen to shut up, etc. The following day Patrick lied that the only reason he was banned was for calling the Holocaust a hoax, when there were so much other bullying, racist, misogynistic, homophobic, toxic insults, insane rants, abusive personal attacks, and chronically dishonest and evasive posts — consistently for several years. The thing he said later that struck me the most was this:
“One thing I agree with Jack when he says he thinks I am not ‘homophobic’ but that my gay bashing type of comments were just thrown out just to hurt and shame him. It comes back I suppose to my ‘blowing up’ problem and like I began to say to Renee that has so many aspects and is deep in me. For me it is a matter of survival if someone or something is hurting me first off I feel I have to ‘defend’ myself and that is/can be a mighty effort and struggle in itself but then (in my mind) to ‘prevent’ and make sure it does not happen again or worse over and over again I have to go on the attack and really give the person a black eye.”
That is such a primitive, characteristic response for him, the exploding with adrenaline in the field to beat up the other guys so they never challenged him again. It seems all he “knows how to do” automatically, for any and every hurt. Every single time he is hurt, he is totally unable to consider if what the person said is true, and just strikes back in the most hurtful way he has at hand. No self-reflection, at all.
Again, I cannot come to any other beneficial conclusion than banning him, although I’m not sure if it’s possible, since he is not willing to respect any one here, and just bullies his way back. Maybe venting insanely here is less painful for him than having it swirl inside him in isolation.
Vicki: I agree with a lot you say here BUT I have some reservations about others.
I did omit to add your name also to the ones I stated I thought were “being unfair to me and unjust”
I don’t agree that I am fighting Patrick. I know better than to try that. Poking don’ see as fighting.
Meantime I have made a commitment to Phil to NOT respond to Patrick until the matter of him is settled. You may not have caught up with that post of mine.
Lastly: I didn’t say I want Patrick on the blog. I don’t care if he is or isn’t. I did say many moons ago that if he left I would miss responding to him. That has now changed. Like you I do feel he needs this forum for whatever his reasons are.
I felt you made it very clear (good for you) that it triggered your childhood.
Jack
Thanks, Jack. I did read everything,, but somehow didn’t realize you had committed that to Phil.
Vicki,
I didn’t ask Jack for any commitment, that’s his idea and decision, but I’m fine with that.
Phil
for weeks now I have been in some kind of battle with a new employee from the social services who walked in with a filled in form about me, rating me on some scale about being selfsufficient for daily chores etc.
she rated me as almost entirely able to do anything, including freely moving around the city, which is ridiculous, without help in some cases.
to start with her rating is more than half of two other official ratings I have on another but equivalent scale, done by the medical control doctor of the social services, and by another official instance separately.
on top of it she demands me to sign the forms with her rating on it, threatening to block all the assistance I get.
i told her to begin with she does not know me at all and walks in with an already filled in form, only willing to change one item about the obility only one tiny oint from zero to 1..
our discussions go from bad to worse lately, I told her yesterday on the phone it feels like an enormous invasion of my privacy to yet again have to be rated unnecessarily by someone who in theory could use the other rating of her own social services to which she belongs.
on the internet we found a blog with faq about this kind of thing, indeed complaining about this situation in which the same instances work with different ratings and strongly different scores within their own services
she said if I sign it would not have consequences in the future, but I said how can I rely on that, then why do I have to sign at all, while I don’t even agree with what is on the paper?
then she made the threat I might lose my support as they are government subsidized.
it is so very frustrating, on the one hand when I tell her about the rating of the control doctor of her own services, she says she is not allowed to look into that information, and on the other hand she wants to label me and have me sign it without hardly knowing anything about me, with the risk of financial or other consequences.
I refused to further discuss it at this point, asked her to mail me the rating forms so I could read them, and then I would contact her.
have not yet received them, but it still feels like such an invasion of my personal privacy to have to defend on the rating of some topics of self reliance with this stranger that wants to force me to sign a rating that is less than half the value of my other ratings.
I laid awake about it last night, feeling the intrusion, anger, frustration, fear and hummiliation of the situation.
finally I managed to ease myself down enough to fall asleep, and had a couple of fine dreams, with loving interested guys at first, and then a second very special dream in which I danced with my dad.
a gracious dance, just holding both our hands, dad leading calmly the moves which did not belong to any special style, but it felt so very harmonious and connective.
I feel so privileged to have a second dream like this in just a few weeks, where my dad is there to comfort and reassure me and to ease my mind.
I know it is my own mind coming up with this, but that too feels so good.
feel teary now…
M
She sounds like a dangerous bully. How frightening, Margaret.
Margaret: Call social services and ask the supervisor to replace your current caseworker.
Margaret,
Sounds scary if this new employee is threatening your assistance and benefits. I hope there’s a way to bypass her or make a complaint.
Phil
thanks Larry, Guru and Phil, your support brought tears to my eyes.
I feel so vulnerable and have a migraine today, certainly due to the argument I had with her over the phone yesterday.
I have someone from another ‘Assisted Living’ agency that visits me once week, who is looking into this and informing herself with the medical insurance I have, and trying to find out ways to settle all of this without too much damage and possibly other options for assistance.
but I need to be careful as the instances that dragon woman works for are the general town instances and cover many different services.
it is especially humiliating to be forced to sign papers about oneself one does not agree with, and simply to be labelled once more by someone who does not even know me really, I saw her twice.
it crossed my mind to file a complaint or to contact her supervisor, but my hopes it will help are very small, as she says she discussed it a number of times with her supervisor already.
it is a bureaucratic tangle as she needs signed forms to send to the Ministry of social services etc., ha…
the problem is she refuses to really change her score much and I feel it as too humiliating to discuss with her about every single item.
also the energy is starting to lack me especially with the migraine it already gave me.
still glad though I do have a few people to share this with, and someone over here trying to help me.
thanks guys, your feedback helps me to feel the sadness instead of only tension.
M
Margaret, I totally agree with what others have said here. She is a complete bully. Certainly I hope you find a way to stand up to her and overcome this.
Ever since getting that response from Gretchen I have been imersed in feelings. Last night in bed I started with these mini convultions again, as I call them, and it went on for more than an hour. I thought to call my buddy; Chris, but didn’t. Not sure why. My whole body feels upside down and I feel I’m on the verge of screaming.
My Jimbo is leaving for a trip to Europe, The Netherlands to see if he can find a house somewhere in the south near the Belgian border. Meantime, My nephew and his wife are going to be here to take care on me. I am going to miss him and know he’ll miss me. He’ll be gone for 6 weeks.
Oh! Geesus. I feel I’m on the verge of screaming right now. I’ve instructed Jim to just let do it; but he keeps pleading that I don’t; in friendly sort of way.
Can it be that finally I’m going to have to revisit that feeling I had in the London Clinic now more than 50 years ago. Dunno as of now.
Jack
Jack,
It sounds like you got a lot going on. I hope you can some get relief from those feelings soon.
Phil
Yeah!!! Phil: Even as I write I feel I’m right in it now.
I’ve done enough therapy to let it all take it’s own good time … but that feeling is so fucking scary.
Jack
I have still been in this feeling and now I feel this weird feeling my head will fall off. I told Jim and so he held my head against his abdomen and that felt very comforting.
I decided to go and lie down on my bed for a while and now I feel a little better. It’s still all there and I know I am going to have to feel more … but for now; I’ll rest for a while.
Vicki: Phil was quite right. It was my suggestion to Phil
Jack
I’m still in but I did get my Buddy Chris to sit for me and that helped to make me more relaxed.
I feel I don’t know anything anymore. I’ off to bed now
Jack
How disorienting!
Margaret – that sounds so terrible to be treated that way. So glad you did not sign! I have heard of it – whereby agencies try to cut back by falsifying improvement &/or implementing a ‘new’ grading system to then streamline. You have to hang tough – as you did/are. The anxiety & stress that it causes while you wait, do what you can, and get bounced around is awful though I am sure!!
Please keep us posted.
L
Erron, Leslie,
the thing is she seems mostly someone stuck in wanting to do her job perfectly in the sense of filling in forms to the letter in a rigid way.
and Leslie, it passed my mind as well this might be part of a general guideline to cut down expenses.
recently here they also passed a law about long term sick people being obliged to try and work again. that is awful under the circumstnces loads of young and older healthy people do not work.
I don’t think they will come to me to work which I would not mind if it would be a good job really.
two years ago I did apply for some kind of unpaid part time working but that person who had to manage my application simply fucked up completely and dropped out of her job herself without doing anything, without letting me know so I could have gone to another instance, and then she went on sick leave herself.
Kafka on all levels of bureaucracy
it is scary and stressful though.
M
Jack,
it sounds like very early stuff breaking to the surface.
it must be hard to deal with as it is so physical and probably hard to experience in a normal awake state of mind.
it reminds me of a dream I once had, being in some kind of rollercoaster and suddenly drop out, dangling only by my ankles, and being absolutely terrified as I was very aware of being in a dangerous position with my head being extremely vulnerable if falling.
those words of course are merely a description of what I felt, but it was very clear.
I remember in that dream looking ‘up’ to my belly and seeing a mass of blood and stuff, right, umbilical cord remains?
it is a common thing they do or did, to hold up newborns by their ankles, and even then to slap them on the butt to make them cry etc.
primal experience opens such a new view on al those things, and I hope so strongly that view gets more spread, talked about and published about!
yes, hint for mr. B, smiley…
but on a personal level, it is awful that kind of terror is what is inflicted on babies as one of their first experiences out in the world, together with a cutting of the umbilical cord way too soon, before all the blood and reserves get pumped by the placenta into the newborn child…
and in my case I suspect the nuns put me in a crib in another room and only brought me to my mom for a feed on their schedule, until she went home again.
my poor brother was getting extremely thin as my mom followed some advice about feedings they gave her when he was born, until someone reassured her she should follow her own instincts and feed that little boy as much as he wanted…
all that unnecessary stress and pain and need inflicted on babies, so sad and crazy in a way..
M
Hi Everybody: Well! after still being in the feelings all the way until mid-night. I was finally able to go to sleep and slept very well right through till this morning. It helped enormously for Chris sitting for me yesterday afternoon and felt a lot of it … but I was not totally through with it. Thanks Chris … It’s all birth stuff but it’s feelable.
I know there is more of it and that’s OK and for right now I am in a good space. Had my breakfast; sat in the sun for a while and now to my emails and coffee. Jim’s just got up and put the coffee machine on. So now I’ll see how the rest of you are doing.
(continuing)
Larry: Yep!! very disorienting while I was in it. The only thing that did occur to me was that it went on for so long. I can only think it must have been because I wasn’t getting all the way into it.
Margaret: You are right and until the advent of Frederick LeBoyer, all that stupid stuff was done. Birth should not be a ‘medical problem’ But as I said, the insights tell me it was all birth stuff. Just happy for now that I am getting some respite. Thanks for yours and Larry’s responses.
Jack
One more thing: Not sure if this is an insight or what; BUT why is “screaming” seen as unnatural? Little kids in the play ground scream with delight as they play. In Ibiza I was known among all the other hippies as “screaming Jack”. Not sure if I was actually screaming or just proselytizing about Primal Therapy.
Also: when I feel pain I scream … much to the chagrin of my Jimbo. He never screams. I sometimes wish he would. He does have pain in his abdomen after the gall bladder surgery, which apparently hurts like crazy.
Jack.
What triggered all these feelings? First was Gretchen’s remark after sazying”That being said…….. ( ha ! there is always a caveat )”. The other thing is perhaps being a little anxcious about my Jimbo’s trip and missing him. Another might be the feeling of:- “It being unfair and unjust”.
Whatever it was, doesn’t really matter. What was more important was I did stop to think more of Gretchen’s suggestion that there were more feelings going on, that I should think about. I did contemplate that and got into these feelings.
Jack
Jack you’re welcome and I will sit for you anytime. Those were some very powerful feelings and they were affecting me as I was sitting for you; especially the feeling related to your head, holding it up and feeling disoriented, afraid that it was going to come off. Wow, even writing here now triggers that.
Chris: Yes it was, but sadly in one respect this was NOT my “Primal Scene”. It seems that will come later … I suspect … the feeling of dying and screaming it outta my body. It feels I’m doing everything backwards. All I can say to that is; the worst comes last.
Meantime, Christ:- I too will sit for you anytime you need it. Great buddying between us yeah????
Jack
really great Jack!!!
Thanks, Vicki, for your help in finding the specific message I was looking for. I found it. I don’t know about others, but when I go to my blog “Entries” they do not come up in an orderly, chronological order. Very strange.
Leslie, it seems that you are cutting me some slack because I was a new patient when I was out of control. Actually, to be fully honest, my crazy, out of control behavior continued for at least 10 years. But I’m not sure that really matters. I believe that growth in therapy rarely happens in a linear way……kind of like the way my ‘entries’ are showing up on this blog!
Btw, you are right, I do see hope for Patrick. I don’t write him off and assume that he doesn’t want help because he gets lost and caught up in his inappropriate and hostile messages and cannot stop himself. I just think he needs something different to what he has been getting on this blog. In my next message, in my response to Gretchen’s message to me, I will share what I think would make more of a difference and be more helpful for both Patrick and us blog readers.
Hopefully, my next message will also address your comments to me, Phil.
Personally, I feel that by suggesting that Patrick take a reprieve from this blog Gretchen his helping him, in effect nudging him out of the rut he sank into deeper and deeper in his struggles with everyone here. People felt compelled to confront his evermore crazy, provocative rants, over and over got caught up in hopeless fruitless evermore toxic struggles with him, which is what he neurotically needed and we were all trapped in providing, it seems to me. One way it could be stopped is by no one reacting to him. He solved that by baiting with evermore outrageous posts that could not be ignored.
After many years of trying to reach out to him and be helpful but the atmosphere continually deteriorating, the only way the massive, deepening struggle could be stopped, it seems to me, for the health of all including Patrick, is to ask him to take a reprieve from the blog.
For his sake I hope a breather from the blog will help him take a different, more constructive look at his life. My feeling though is that it would be very, very difficult for him to do.
Hi Renee,
I would so much rather hear about you and how you are – honestly!
Although, we got to know each other more last summer I knew you from a number of retreats/ groups.
I do not see how you think your behaviour, resistance etc. was like Patrick’s.
Yes, underlying pain of course and all 3 of us can commiserate on trust issues for instance.
However, please review the years of his harassment here on the primal institute blog – which is not therapy but a collaborative feeling space with the safety net of Gretchen’s monitoring.
Just saying…
L
Leslie, that was well said, and I agree.
Renee, from my position, having felt all the harassment of his posts, I do not want to see anything more that may incite engagement with him. There’s been so much that has made me feel unsafe. Gretchen has addressed personal abuse, tried on every level to help him, (as have many individuals here) and protected us and so much more, in an exemplary way.
You feel you can help Patrick, perhaps you can write to him privately..
I also would much rather hear about you personally.
Yeah! What a horrid awful man! And we don’t need him around disturbing our ‘tea parties’ Good riddance I say he is just not ‘civilized’ like we are
well i held it in all week, mom, can i let it go now. ok,thanks. weep weep
held it in to push myself to my boring long-hours job. one more week, now one more week closer to the fucking end. crap. lonely empty existence
the End?
Just to let people know I am still alive (and kicking lol and still disturbing ‘tea parties’). This from a guy called Jonas Alexis I have to say I agree………………I heard something a bit odd while on this subject. 4 million Jews lived in the whole area that was controlled by Nazi Germany during the war (mostly Poland, Russia and Hungary) anyway 4 million ok but out of those 6 million died and strangely enough 5 million more showed up as ‘survivors’ to be compensated and they were. I added that both Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon are Israeli writers. Which kind of makes the point that Jews or Israelis if they are brave and have some integrity ARE capable of stepping out from under some of this. What I have not seen from Gretchen which is disappointing to me. Here is supposed to be some kind of leader instead what we have is hide bound following and and the worst kind of ‘name calling’
“Ivanka (Trump’s daughter) has to make a pilgrimage to the only sacred place in the universe. Why? Well, because the Holocaust, as Israel Shamir (an Israeli writer) points out, “replaces Christ with Israel, Golgotha with Auschwitz, and the Resurrection with the creation of the Jewish state.”[2] Gilad Atzmon (an Israeli writer) likewise declares: “To a certain extent, we are all subject to [the Holocaust] religion; some of us are worshipers, others are just subject to its power.” The Atlantic declared last year that “Ivanka joined a distinctive Jewish world” in 2009,[3] so she obviously has to go all the way.
Charles Krauthammer has also acknowledged that “it has become increasingly common for American Jews to locate their identity in the Holocaust.”[4] For Krauthammer, “the Holocaust forms an ineradicable element of my own Jewish consciousness.”[5] For this reason, Krauthammer tells us that everyone ought to know about the Holocaust:
“We must of course remain dedicated to keeping alive the memory and the truth of the Holocaust, particularly when they are under assault from so many quarters. Which is why, though I initially opposed having a Holocaust museum as the sole representation of the Jewish experience in the center of Washington, I came to see the virtue of having so sacred yet vulnerable a legacy placed at the monumental core of — and thus entrusted to the protection of — the most tolerant and open nation on earth.”[6]
Is that really fair? Krauthammer understands that there is something called double standard, but he cannot apply a consistent standard because the so-called Holocaust morally and intellectually cripples him. For example, he knows that more than forty million people were executed by the Bolshevik or Stalinist regime. He knows that the regime was overwhelmingly Jewish, and he knows that there has not been a single museum in the Western world dedicated to those people. But Krauthammer and the rest are telling us all that “the Holocaust” is unique.
Moreover, Krauthammer and his brethren know that there is a Holocaust going on in the Middle East, particularly in Gaza. But that again is immaterial because, as the late Ovadiah Yosef told us, the Goyim are just donkeys or jackasses whose existential purpose is to serve The Chosen. Even the LA Times has recently reported: “Civilian casualties from airstrikes grow in Iraq and Syria. But few are ever investigated.”[7]
I sort of realize now me challenging the ‘holocaust’ in terms of it’s actuality or factual truth or whatever misses the point……………..it’s ‘factual’ in much the same way and I saw this watching “The Ten Commandments” with Charlon Heston last weekend as a ‘wall of fire’ coming down from Heaven to protect the Jews and then the parting of an ocean to also protect them. Just a ‘myth’ which is ok it’s just I wished someone told me the ‘holocaust’ was another one of those and I could have saved myself some time. But what’s weird and confusing is this insistence that it is all ‘true’ but worse you cannot even ask a question or two about it it is literally off limits to any rational investigation. And if you do you will be called all kinds of names cue Gretchen list she dedicated to me. I imagine Renee is approaching this from the point of view of effective therapy or not I will leave that up to her i am trying to concentrate of some of the more ‘real world’ aspects
Effective therapy? How so? Looks like you couldn’t stop yourself from blowing up again. What happened?
What is ‘blowing up’ about this. This is a ‘myth’ that plenty of people are in jail for ‘doubting’ and here it can and has got me ‘banned’ who it ‘blowing up’ what exactly. You seem like a person with some integrity you might follow the example of Israel Shamir and Gilad Atzmon both Israeli Jews.. Why do ‘primal people’ have to lag so far behind despite all their pretensions…………….talk a good game but don’t play particularly a good game…………..
Ah! So, “new” posts from Patrick! But having read them, it’s clear they are really no different in essence from all the umpteen others he’s posted for two or three years. He just keeps repeating different versions of the same messages that we have all been disbelieving and rejecting, since the beginning. Why would someone keep on coming here to barf the same garbage, over and over? Wasn’t one barfing more than enough, to get his message across? Seriously, since we really read the messages the first time, but found them the products of a disturbed person, at best.
No intelligent and sane person would keep doing this — he must still delude himself that MIRACULOUSLY, someone here will start believing as he does, and thank him for rescuing us from the error of our ways — rescue us from the actual Primal Therapy, that he abandoned in anger. Rather than believing that if 24 or more people have consistently been telling him for over two years that his messages are insane and he needs help, they might be right. No he just wants to keep saying, “The earth is flat, and the moon is made of green cheese, and you are all wrong, and I can’t stand it that you don’t believe me, so I feel I need to keep saying it, no matter how much of a boring, broken record I have become.” Or how truly insane he has become, by embodying anger.
OK Renee – but nowhere do you confront the ‘mystery’ of the out of 4 millions comes 6 million gone (minus) and yet 5 more million show up for the money. If that is ‘insane’ or ‘crazy’ or whatever i would like you to explain it. And just because I ‘repeat’ something and I know for a fact this issue has only been for about 18 months and not all the time many other subjects I have touched on…………………anyway so what if I ‘repeat’ this place has written the book on ‘repeating’ that’s mostly what I see here and don’t people go to ‘repeats’ every year
” products of a disturbed person, at best……………..isn’t this the kind of mindset which led to the abuses in Soviet Russia and I trust you read above who was very involved in all that. ‘Psychologize’ away awkward facts, put the onus back on the person, tell them they are ‘crazy’ and you got pills or something worse for them. This an old script and should be very discredited by now but I understand the old thing if you don’t know history you are liable to repeat it. That word again
Renee – I owe you a big apology. The post above that I sent those two replies were I thought was written by you now I see was done by Vicki. I guess the tone of it really rubbed me the wrong way and really was very disappointing to me in that it employed all the usual name calling and really nonsensical ‘logic’ Anyway sorry and I don’t kid myself or expect you to ‘agree’ with or anything but it was a bit of a shock to read this and think ir was you. Anyway again sorry and I will be a bit more careful in the future. I was rushing out and wasn’t careful
Guru, thanks for those scenes from the Jerk. i gotta watch that again, so good.
Oh, you’re welcome, Otto. Sounds as though your depression has been really crippling lately, so maybe you’ll find a brief respite of laughter with the film. Don’t forget the Pabst Blue Ribbon as an accompaniment!
Patrick, I’m working on confronting a different ‘mystery’, which is why you need us ‘primal people’ to feel over and over again what you have been made to feel—–bullied and demonized. Any ideas?
yesterday in a very nice phone buddy session, I was surprised at how emotional I became while talking about those dreams about my dad, the first just being with him and the second dream dancing with him gently leading me around, and how connecting and harmonious it had felt.
the crying I did was nice in a way, as it felt like crying about the happy relief in a feeling of resolution and making peace.
again I feel the surge of that emotion while writing.
it feels like I distilled the gentle core of my dad out of the surface of pain he was in as well, and we met in that fabulous dream and danced.
wow feel like crying again.M
now the crying was more about grieving the pain and lack of connection that did exist in my childhood.
all that pain and need caused by other pain and need in the former generations..
still I feel so grateful for the feeling me and my dad really did meet at last..
M
Margaret, in my dreams my mom doesn’t have dementia and my father isn’t sick;. he gets better because that was how he always thought–with hope. It feels so good to think they are happy and well in the dream. My mind helps make things the way they should have been and I feel grateful to see them in the dream.
beautiful sunny southern california day. hopefully not too hot. people in their cars heading out to have fun fun fun. latins at the park setting up their picnics to have fun fun fun. me coming home from park to dismal empty dirty quiet house to stew in my aloneness. screamed hard yesterday at pi about the cats and dogs that i lost the past 2 years. empty house reminds me of one of my grand-uncle’s house, when he was still alive. baseball on the radio and whiskey bottle on the table.
my sundays in a lot of my childhood consisted of going to church, doing some singing with all the kids about Jesus. sang for years with those kids and never got to know a one of them. later off to the cemetery with gramma and brother to “see” our mother and father. gramma did not have any interesting stories to tell about my mom and dad, just her silent grief came from every pore in her body. i dont feel like writing details. i could, i suppose i could make an interestijng story but i dont have the will. after cemetery, heard kids playing basketball in their back yards behind the cemetery hedges. maybe go to the cafeteria in pasadena with my old grand-uncle (another one) and my aunt, gramma, and brother. my uncle was quiet and reserved. my aunt and gramma, twins who did not look like each other jabbering away critically about anyone they could think of. and they would not even allow the windows to be down to at least let the beautiful wind inside the big buick car that my uncle loved to drive.
we used to take our kids to the park when they were young, on a saturday or sunday. that is long gone, although my wife and son still do that kind of stuff in ohio. i dont really enjoy doing that with my wife anymore, even if she were here. half the time it would devolve into an argument. i have nothing of any interest to say to her, so i think she would say mindless shit to provoke some life in me. no i will probably not get involved with the primal community. this is too much. i am in so much pain all the time. there is nothing for me, and i have nothing to give. just a big empty void pile of shit. send in the fucking opium. so fucking alone. hurts.
i dont miss anyone. what a disease.
she calls on phone. dont feel like talking to her. my feelings are constantly pushing up. she emailed this is one of her favorites. me too but it just makes me want to wail. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idvrich2Tyw
some amount of crying is bringing up images of my mom in my head. deep deep loss.
The end, Larry? This is the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EkFCJyqd0As. I love this video of the The End.
and very appropriate and effective in Apocalypse Now.
Otto, it is hard to read about your loneliness and hopelessness.
i guess because I can relate to it in some ways.
can you think of any way at all to improve your social life or to make your life better in some other way?
i have to remind myself to keep working on it as my social circle over here keeps shrinking.
initiatives like joining a seniors gym group help to feel I am still able to start new things and enjoy them.
it is important to force myself to search for ways to socialize and if possible have fun, despite feeling anxious about it usually before getting there.
but a feeling of a standstill and nothing but decline is worse.
wish I could help you but at least you have BB and the groups.
is your wife still living with your son and dog?
m
otto,
ok, when I just sent in my comment to you your second commment appeared which already had most of the answers to my questions to you…
feel bad for you and can only hope things get better soon.
M
I am not much of a history buff, but I have read a few things, like “The Rise and Fall of the 3rd Reich” and “The Gulag Archipelago”. I have also seen some filmic re-creations of genocides and related stories and events, like “The Killing Fields”, but the one film that impressed me the most was a simple documentary of the liberation of the concentration camps at the end of WWII. The looks on the gaunt faces and bodies leaving the camps was unforgettable. And I have to add that the vivid experiences of other Primal patients whose own parents survived concentration camps, while other family members were exterminated, has been not only moving but clear, additional “evidence”, if any was necessary.
I decided to do a little further research about genocides and numbers, and found, as I would have guessed, that the “death counts estimates” vary more among historians in the case of genocides happening more remotely from the vision of Western civilizations, and/or more remotely in time. For anyone interested in reading more about these things, here is a small collection of links, that I simply found most interesting.
“In 1939, there were 16.6 million Jews worldwide, and a majority of them – 9.5 million, or 57% – lived in Europe…. By the end of World War II, in 1945, the Jewish population of Europe had shrunk to 3.8 million, or 35% of the world’s 11 million Jews. About 6 million European Jews were killed during the Holocaust, according to common estimates.”
http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/02/09/europes-jewish-population/
“Before the Nazis seized power in 1933, Europe had a richly diverse set of Jewish cultures … In little more than a decade, most of Europe would be conquered, occupied, or annexed by Nazi Germany and its Axis partners, and the majority of European Jews—two out of every three—would be dead.”
https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005161
Historical estimates of Primary Megadeath Tolls of the Twentieth Century:
http://necrometrics.com/20c5m.htm
Mass killings under Communist regimes:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_killings_under_Communist_regimes
Why is the Holocaust more important than other worse genocides?
https://www.quora.com/What-makes-the-Holocaust-more-important-than-the-hundreds-of-genocides-sometimes-larger-that-occurred-before-and-since-then
Why do some people view The Holocaust in WW2 as unique from other genocides and the Armenian Holocaust?
https://www.quora.com/Why-do-some-people-view-The-Holocaust-in-WW2-as-unique-from-other-genocides-and-the-Armenian-Holocaust
Vicki: I read the last two links in your posting and the horrors are beyond imagination EXCEPT I feel Primal theory explains almost all of it … better than anything else I have heard of or read.
It almost all goes back to womb-hood and early child-hood … AND yet I see no others in the psychological OR medical professions; taking note. I do see a reason for it … that being whilst we remain disconnected to those old, old feelings … then we are left with it being a matter of rationalization.
I feel, but for my own re-living event, I too would have fallen into exactly that same mind-set.
I am not sure if history will inform us of the root of the problem … the question then becomes!!! then WHAT could???? I have my theory … but that’s all it is:- Jack’s theory.
Jack
Vicki, I always had a special kind of depression looking at those gaunt faces and skeletal figures of those concentration survivors. Of course worse yet the piles of deceased bodies. Man’s inhumanity to man. Lampshades made from human skin. What a horror.
I recall reading that the children of survivors had more depression and suicide than the general population. It’s like the survivors genes were damaged by their experience in the camps and epigenetically the offspring also paid a price. Not to mention how it must have affected parenting skills.
Sylvia, I have heard that too, about the children of survivors, and about the genetic damage passed on. One patient i know has talked at length about how insane it made his parents, who lost everyone in their families when they were very young, and have never recovered from all the pain, never a hope of that. Instead they off-loaded it onto their kids, yet still kept plenty of obsessive worry for themselves to dwell in.
Syvia – as to the ‘gaunt faces’ etc blame the British and American bombing .It really ls not that mysterious if you have massive labor camps and all the roads and railways into them are bombed people will starve. Think of say Las Vegas if you cut off all roads and every way to get food in in fairly short order you will have more that gaunt faces you will have massive starvation. Which ls what happened in Germany no real mystery or even question about it You just have to give it a little thoght and not let yourself get carried away by ‘pictures’……………much as Trump was recently carried away by pictures of those poor poor babies. We really should be able to do a little better than that
As far as the ‘lampshades’ and ‘soap’ stories even ‘holocaust promoters’ no longer even push this nonsense. Please you might read and think a bit more before you re-cycle such rubbish
How will pondering these dark topics help me to become the degenerate billionaire playboy I’ve always wanted to be before my brief, fragile consciousness disintegrates into know-nothingness for all eternity?
Guru: My take is; you are never going to make any more than you already make now. Suggestion … live with it.
Jack
Angry man who disliked my question…
It won’t, but nothing else here will make that possible either– but only here would you find the answer to why after if you become a billionaire you would sabotage it with becoming a playboy degenerate.
I’ll try to make the descent as fun as possible before the candle flame of my own consciousness flickers out into the eternal void, then, thanks for the heads-up Sylvia.
Sylvia: I agree with most of that. My Jimbo is of the same mind-set. I read a book:- “The Seven Laws of Money” many years ago before coming to therapy. There’s a huge myth about money that does not hold the promise. I knew this American millionaire while I was living in Ibiza. He was forever saying, he never spent more than 2 weeks of the years, worrying how to make money. I retorted with my ‘smarty pants’ answer … Yes, but you spend the other 50 weeks ‘Worried’ about how to spend it.
I must have touched a nerve, because he slapped my round the face for saying it.
Jack
i have to keep forcing myself to listen to this piano music and letting myself cry and see images of my mom. instead of eating. i have to go all the way through this to get out of my deadness. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dy9Yzes8w8
she would be playing the piano and then turned to look at me on the floor. saying something…whatever moms say to their baby that they are deeply bonded with
every phrase she played was special, captivating, watching her hands glidferd over the keys.
fall air
soon to goodbye forever. i had no idea
some kind of loosed dress they wore in the 50’s
of course the cloth of the dress would touch me when she picked me up to hold me close to her. some smell of the cloth maybe
Boy Otto, you really are back there seeing your mom in her dress. You are in the baby brain. Good for you for feeling and not eating to cover the feelings. No doubt insights will follow. You have gone so deep.
I have a Jewish friend ‘crashing’ with me (he says I couldn’t be much of an ‘anti semite’ if you want to help him anyway that’s not the point. He gave me a copy of the “Jewish Journal” and lo and behold it is FULL of ‘stories’ about the holocaust. I read some of them and tell myself be fair here or try to be. And of course some of the stories are ‘moving’ though the question DOES remain about how ‘true’ a lot of they are. But aside from that what struck me is utterly ‘a-historical’ they are what I mean is let’s even accept they are ‘true’ even so from any historical point of view they are ‘understandable’ even to take Sylvia’s examples of starvation in camps etc…………..well any historical attitude would know and understand that was pretty much totally an effect of British and American bombing. But any of that is never it seems even reflected on it’s all emotions and emotions all the time. And ‘blame’ all the time. In that way I find most of this so tiring and so full of self regard and absolute ‘sensitivity’ to themselves and no sensitivity at all to anyone else. Just think for a moment of Hamburg and Dresden and so many other cities in Germany incinerated with all the people in them. And if you do not find that convincing think of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Who really were/are the ‘bad guys’ in WW2. At least some recognition of ‘facts’ like that would make a change from this constant self regard and self pity
Patrick, I’m confused. I do not see which two replies you are apologizing for. I only see a response to Sylvia, where you wrote, “”Please you might read and think a bit more before you re-cycle such rubbish”. I think you are speaking to and about yourself again. Still stuck, I see. And still alienating yourself.
Renee – it was yesterday April 22 at 12:13 PM where Vicki and I thought it was ‘you’ (she actually) recycled a fair amount of rubbish lol. Now come on Renee do YOU believe in the ‘soap and lampshades stories’ so can we before we start ‘psychoanalyzing’ again talk or think about these ‘facts’ I mean the soap and lampshades ‘facts’ because as I said even ‘holocaust promoters’ themselves have abandoned these ‘stories’. And actually for people who are serious about this this is exactly what they see MORE AND MORE of these and other stories have had to be abandoned.So now among historians at least most of Eli Weisel’s stories have to go too. Like live babies being tossed into raging fires………..yet he said the SAW that. What a freaking liar and kids heads are stuffed full of this nonsense in schools now. To me THAT is ‘child abuse’ such hateful (to use a word!) rubbish there is no way Germans could or would do that……………….in the Judaic imagination thought it is another question. I mean WHAT makes a people dream up such nonsense and even ‘believe’ it
interruption by wife in ohio, on the phone. it has been so good that she has been away, good for therapy i mean. i would never have gotten down this deep with her here. and i don’t know what will come of all this feeling. seems endless. so many minutes of joy and grief at that seminal time of my baby life. so much to remember and feel.
Patrick, again I see you write about yourself when you say, “I find most of this so tiring and so full of self regard and absolute ‘sensitivity’ to themselves and no sensitivity at all to anyone else”. Still stuck and still alienating yourself.
Oh yes, Patrick, now I see how you were mistaken. Apology accepted. Once again, I gotta tell you, take a look at your last sentence. You wrote, “I mean WHAT makes a people dream up such nonsense and even ‘believe’ it”. It’s not “people” you are talking about……it’s yourself. Are you seeing any of what I am noticing?
I ask that question, Patrick, because I remember a few months ago you did acknowledge that when you were talking about the Jews or Gretchen you were really talking about parts of yourself.
Renee – I have reflected on that here and there and what comes up is my inability to engage in life to ‘let go’ as they say. Always on the outside looking in never really part of the action. And to me that somehow connects with this “Jewish” thing outsiders not accepted by others and also them not accepting others. And it feels to me if somehow I can ‘get my mind around’ all that in history and even in the present day as far as the “Jewish” issue is concerned then I can or will be able to ‘get my mind’ around my own situation of isolation and being apart from life. This is just a sort of ‘flash’ I have had recently but it feels true. If I could ‘solve’ that I would have solved a lot. So I imagine this is a deep motivation for me to continue to ‘research’ this issue. And I do I have just got a book that looks fairly intimidating about 1100 pages called “The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit and it’s impact on world history” I hope to read it and I guess to show you I don’t just read books ‘denying the holocaust’……………
I just lost a comment I was trying to post. I’ll try again but that’s very frustrating. It is about something which happened a few days ago. In some sad feelings I was recalling a childhood memory of visiting my mother in the institution where she was. These visits were bad and I don’t remember her ever talking to me except one time. On that day she asked me what grade I was in at school and who my teacher was. In reality I gave her the very shortest answer possible. I felt very shy and in the spotlight in front of my mother, just really disconnected, no familiarity with her, no warmth. I wanted nothing to do with her. Usually it’s anger which then proceeds as I recall this. Clearly she doesn’t even know me and only by some chance happens to take notice of my this time. Nor is my father of any help, maybe because it’s hopeless, or he is unable to do it or know what to do. He can’t help us connect. But the other day I was in a sad feeling and it went differently. I said something like “I’d like to tell you all about me because I feel and imagine you with me all the time” etc etc. I talked to her from my child perspective and also my adult self. I thought of all the years of my life and everything I’ve been through that I wished she could know about. It’s a deep feeling of the lack of never having had a mother. A fantasy that she has been here all the time and very interested in me. This opened up the sad feelings, not hard to do, but this was a new angle and feels very encouraging, that it has power to further my progress.
Phil: Avery interesting perspective. The sadness that I read on this blog is mind boggling.
Oh! that it could have been different.
Jack
Over the Easter weekend we went to my cousins’ house and my aunt and uncle were there. My uncle is my mothers youngest brother. A very smart and interesting guy and I enjoy seeing him. He has a Phd in physics. But it isn’t easy to keep him talking on a personal level. All of a sudden he will divert the subject to history or world cultures. He can tell you about the Balkans or the Roman Empire. It can become quite tedious. I observe his own grown children ridiculing him for this. One made reference to him joining a history club, for example. Not what he wants to do. This is a very long standing quirky characteristic of his. I can end up stuck with him in some such conversation, with me trying to divert it from history. Also reminds me of “stupid” conversations with my father. We could never talk about important things, they had to stay deep in the background or between the lines. With my uncle I feel clearly that it’s his own history that has him stuck on the history subject. When my uncle was 4 years old, his father, my grandfather, died of a very sudden massive heart attack. I don’t think my uncle can remember his father and I have never heard him say anything about it. It’s sad to see him stuck on history, his whole life until the end, unaware. Just a guess on my part, yet I feel a certainty about this. Phil
That is fascinating, Phil.
Just saw such a beautiful, moving movie “Maudie”. Try to see it if you can! Sally Hawkins and Ethan Hawke star in it and it is based on the true story of the folk artist Maude Lewis from Nova Scotia, Canada.
While there saw the trailer for “I, Daniel Blake” a British film that looks really good also. I think you would like the dilemma Margaret – of an injured carpenter who has to navigate the system that is trying to cut him off government support.
L
We can see here the clear connection between the slogan “Never Again” and the constant need for new wars to ensure that. I was mistaken I would say now about Trump I took his words for more than they were or maybe better said what they were. He wanted no more deluded foreign wars etc he said. But I did say whatever would happen in the election we would get a “President for Israel” and so it has come to pass. Prophecy is fulfilled you might say. But I wanted to kind of show that ‘holocaust belief’ very much goes hand in hand with American Empire and more and more war making. If you want more and eternal war keep thinking that way. I picture a slogan “Got enough war yet”
Thinking of you Larry! Congratulations on your Retirement!! What an accomplishment that you are moving forward into this new phase of your life. I wish you fun, relaxation and happiness. And oh yeah a Flapper Pie of course to celebrate! 🙂
ox L
Larry, are you 100% retired now? I envy you. Monday morning and it’s hard being at work after such a beautiful weekend. I was outside enjoying some early Spring sun and I’d like to be continuing with that today.
Patrick,
what you wrote to Renee about your inner identifying with some aspects of the Jewish people does make sense.
you often talk about how you dislike their ‘taking the victim role and using it’.
it made me recall a number of times that struck me about you and I mentioned it, you seem to have a tendency to set yourself up to be able to end up assuming a kind of victim role.
instead of reading this 1100 pages book, which might be interesting of course, reflecting on what it is you seem to be recreating and why might be very useful as well if you really want to break that cycle of being a selfinflicted outsider.
that is not a nice place to be in I am sure.
hope you get forward with it.
M
yes Larry, all the best with your retirement, hopefully filled with a variety of many happy moments and events, lots of good company and good health.
M
Larry: I wish you all the very best in your retirement. I sincerely hope something really good comes out of it. You sure deserve it.
Jack
Thank you everyone for your well wishes regarding my retirement. Tomorrow is my last day. I’ll get together with 24 of my colleagues for a retirement lunch at one of my favourite restaurants. Then I’m done. At my workplace I will be history.
I’m lucky to have been able to make my living at work that mattered to me, that I wanted, that mostly interested me, often challenged me, and rarely over stressed me. I suppose if I hadn’t been able to primal along the way, I would have felt over stressed at times. Instead, I just broke down and cried when needed, ha.
It hasn’t been easy to let it all go, to accept that I’m significantly older now and have to figure out the future all over again. It’s been really helpful to me that for the last 1.5 years I’ve been working at reduced time in transition to retirement. I’ve done a lot of crying in the adjustment to being alone with a lot of time on my hands and not at work. The difficult feelings all stem from being alone as a kid, anxious and afraid deep inside, withdrawn from human connection.
I know that without the structure and demands of the workplace to keep me engaged with the outside world, I’m at risk of isolating and withering. But I’ve cried a lot and felt a lot of the childhood feelings to where I’m more comfortable now with my aloneness and more confident that I can take care of myself and that I have developed a social and activity network that will feed me. I feel fairly confident that I will pursue interests that will keep me meaningfully engaged with life. I’m happy to discover that in the past couple of weeks I’ve reached the point where I’m no longer anxious about retirement, but am looking forward to it. I’m ready to end my work career. I’m both sad and excited.
I’ll feel uncomfortable tomorrow at the luncheon. I recoil from being the center of all that attention. At the same time I’m touched that my colleagues want to celebrate this transition with me and it feels meaningful to say good-bye with them this way. I anticipate it will be a nice send off.
Thank you all for being the blog that helped me to get here, that is there to reach out to when I’m at my lowest.
I’m jealous of your good weather, Phil. It snowed lightly here last night.
Larry: It sounds like you have resolved a lot of things. I just hope you see multiple oportunites for yourself. Looking back at my own retirement at 65 was 20 years ago. I do agree with Janov that this therapy gives us decades more of life; with less stress; and a bigger part or ourslves. You sure had a very rough start.
So enjoy … best you are able. I’m certain we are all ‘looking out for you’.
Jack
Larry, best wishes for you and every exciting thing you do in retirement! I think you will be fine 🙂
Erron
Larry congrats on your retirement. I wish you good luck in this new phase and now you’ll have more time to visit us in sunny SoCal!
Larry: Good luck with the next phase of your life! Hope it’s awesome.
Larry, have fun at the luncheon tomorrow and congratulations on your retirement. That’s great how you have prepared and adjusted. Phil
Patrick, I agree with Margaret. What you say makes a lot of sense. It is a relief to read a post from you and not have to figure out or analyze what you are trying to communicate! What is most interesting is your comment that, “if somehow I can ‘get my mind around’ all that in history and even in the present day as far as the “Jewish” issue is concerned then I can or will be able to ‘get my mind’ around my own situation of isolation and being apart from life”. If this strategy was going to work, I think it would have worked already. I think this strategy is keeping you stuck and alienated. What I’m wondering is why you need to adopt a group to demonize and view as outsiders in order to understand yourself and your own “situation of isolation and being apart from life”. Any ideas?
this one kind of sends a chill into me. i have for the longest time considered sheet music to be contemptible, but this reminds me of the times i was taught piano, that was in military school and maybe after. i get a little twinge in my left hand because it always seemed to me to be very hard to get my hands to do what i told them. my grandmother told me once that her twin sister had tied my left hand early on, to discourage my real left-handedness, i use my right hand now, but i am kind of dyslexic. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=96Nshp3JBm4 anyway, another thought i had was maybe my mom picked me up as a baby and i sat on her lap and she let me hit the keys of the piano a few times. i guess that is possible for a baby of 10 months or earlier, no idea. don’t know where this will lead. not really getting what i would call ecstatic relief from crying, hopefully the crying will ward off cancer or such. not relief possibly due to the dulling effects of wellbutrin and also of getting up every day at 2:40am to go to what has become a boring stressful job with an un-ending amount of work to do. anyway, i will collect social security at age 66 and still work overtime, and that stll wont cover the bills. if i make it to december, that is.
why the magnetic rag holds so much meaning for me, dont know. must have been a big spot burned into my brain, neurons of love and warmth converging and running in many directions. a veritable foundation. but that house didn’t get finished. at least not as intended.
and the little chiuahua on the ground looking up at us on the piano bench. jeez, memories….
what my aunt emailed me recently about my mom. well my outlook is messed up. but she said my mom was just so sweet and played the piano beautifully. 10 months of sweet love, she gave me her best.
what a loss…
seeing her come toward me, some kind of brown dress she made, smiling at me. brilliant counterpoint to my mean uncle and his non-smiling face coming toward me when i went to live with him for a while while my mom was in an iron-lung dying. hope my heart can stand all these tears.
somebody frying bacon in the kitchen. i have remembered that before. why i say this. it is in the whole picture here. not norman rockwell, more than that…
could be the day i last saw her.
You are doing good, Otto. So much to feel; so much a loss of what you had. Tears are better out than in and not shed. Take care.
funny, i took an aspirin an hour ago. i think that helps sometimes in getting to feelings. brings down the shitload of pain enough. that is my theory. i took it because my hands are numb. ok got to go to sleep.
Larry, retirement is huge for you..a massive change…no wonder you felt so anxious… credit to you for tackling the approach of it…here’s to the next phase of your life!🥂👍
Hey Larry, Congratulations on your retirement! Have a wonderful day tomorrow, no doubt your colleagues appreciate all you have brought to the work place. On to the next phase 🙂 ! Talk soon! Gretch
Otto,
I wish you would get yourself treated for what probably is carpal tunnel syndrome or you might get more and more disabled with your hands.
you might have a good medical insurance right now working for a hospital, it is a job related injury as well, and it will give you some free time well, on your hands so to say..
M
I had those “mini convulsions”, as I call them, again last night. Now I know what they are.
It’s a long story, but will keep it brief for now. It’s being in the womb at about 4 moths when my mother’s father committed suicide (he was desperately asthmatic apparently) my mother told years later she refused to grieve her father’s death because of the baby inside her … me. I wish now, she had grieved his death … she loved her father dearly. The fetus me could have taken her grieving. The insight is:- that was the beginnings of my homosexuality. A woman’s body is NOT a pleasant place to be inside.
But these feeling are a precursor to the other about my screaming “I’m dying … I’m dying”; at about two and half years old. My mother left in the crib (cot) asleep, taking the other two with; her because she was upset at becoming pregnant yet again, to chat with neighbors. I woke up crying, then screaming for my mammy. That’s my “Primal Scene” The feeling is:- I didn’t know anyone could feel that amount of terror and live.
It’ s little wonder I don’t want to re-visit it.
Jack
Correction: First sentence; second paragraph “….. at about 4 months ….” Not about 4 ‘moths’.
Jack
Wow, BIG feelings, Jack. So sorry for you having to go through that. Courageous effort, may it turn out well for you.
“A woman’s body is NOT a pleasant place to be inside”
– well, in 2 senses of the phrase, I won’t go there 😉
Erron
Erron: Yes my biggest and most traumatic … as for as I know to-date.
Jack
Jack these are very powerful feelings. From what you have told me, your mother adored and loved you dearly so it must have definitely felt like she was distracted. And the pain that she was holing in must have affected you. If you care to please try and write with more detail about the feelings that you are having now.
For my part, from the very beginning of life I was unwanted. As Barry put it, you were marinating in rejection the whole time in the womb. Now I often feel self-disgust and self-hate that is hard to zero in on. It is the hate and disgust that she had for me. It saturated me to the core. I also often feel a vague and unending feeling of doom and terror. This is because I was all alone when I should have been held close and coddled. Oh, it feels like these feelings are so huge and unending. I guess they are in some ways.
I was going to say feel free to call if you want/need, but I may be calling you later.
Chris, I’m struggling this morning reading posts from yourself, Jack and Larry. So much pain and struggle. Your phrase, quoted from Barry, of “marinating in rejection the whole time in the womb” quite chilled me, as in the last meeting I had with my own mother she as much as said she tried to abort me. Unlike you and Jack, I have yet to go there. Not looking forward to it, but it is somehow comforting to read of others like yourselves who have gone there and survived.
Thanks.
Erron
Erron, great way to put it, “so much pain and struggle” indeed. And that is sad that your mother hinted that she almost aborted you. Wow, when you say she tried does that mean she went to a clinic? Or what? Feel free to ignore these questions if as you said you are not ready to go there. I actually wish my mother would have aborted me. The pain and misery that I have gone through in my life is not fair. No one should have to suffer like this.
I really wish there was some other way to deal with this terror and misery, but sadly there is not. Thankfully there is this wonderful community of people who are here and always willing to lend a hand and to help. And whenever you feel you are ready to go there Erron, I’ll be here to help in any way that I can. And I am sure you know that there are many other people here willing to help as well. It seems the most we can ever really do however is just listen to each other and bear witness to each other’s deepest miseries.
Chris, no she didn’t go to a clinic, but made oblique references to using an old wives tale abortifacient (parsley, believe it or not). I’m so sorry that you wish your mother would have aborted you. God you must have some awful times. For myself, at least my dad loved and cared about me, even though he was very damaged from his own childhood, and from the effects of the Second World War. So, there were definite limits to what he could do. For example, I have big feelings about his failure to protect me from my mother’s insanity.
I went away from primal for decades, wandering into all sorts of curious and distracting alleys that I suppose, at least kept me from agony. But I finally realised I was just going to drink myself to death if I didn’t come back and make the commitment to primal. It’s an ugly prospect, in so many ways, as I no longer believe in miracle cures or even dramatic transformations in 12 months of therapy. This is just the way I am going to live the rest of my life, for better or worse, because I’ve tried everything else and at the end of the day all the alternatives are just much, much worse.
Erron
Erron: that is a very sad comment. I hope somehow some breakthrough occurs for you however small. In your own good way you are doing this therapy. Good luck Erron.
Jack
Thanks Jack 🙂
I agree with Jack Erron, I hope you can find some way to get through some of the feelings and feel some changes for the positive in your life.
Chris: Thanks … and I feel certain (as certain as I can be) that I’ll get into it all, and I have great faith in this therapy. Of course, to hope it can ‘done’ to me is a myth, and something I discovered early in therapy. I know I have to do the work.
There’s always more BUT that’s not a problem … It’s part of life.
Jack
Chris, one other thing I should say is thank you so much for your unconditional offer of help. I will certainly bear it in mind.
I’m thrashing around a lot lately in anger and frustration because for various reasons – mostly that my therapist has been unavailable for several weeks – I have not felt safe to feel much.
I’m also a coward who at the slightest opportunity will fly off into defence, lashing out at others (poor Jack would know) etc. rather than feel my feelings. That’s why this therapist (who’s had several years therapy and training with Janov) has been so damned good for me. He holds my face to my pain, without cruelty or busting, but also in a quietly relentless fashion. I’ve never made progress like this before with all the “mock” therapists. Thank God he’s getting back this weekend…
Erron
Erron Not sure why “poor Jack” I can take it and if it makes me angry all I need to do is own MY anger … then it seems to dissipate. I know before therapy that I wouldn’t realize just how angry I was for a minimum of half and hour later, and some time even half a day. That was worrisome but now I can get to it a lot quicker.
The other thing is if I OWN it then it ceases to be a blame game.
Not sure if that will make a lot of sense Erron If not I am willing to discuss it further.
Jack
I get it Jack, thanks.
Erron: Wow, great. Good luck with it.
Jack
You’re welcome. I understand what you are saying Erron, I hope you are able to get a session with him soon. I know how hard it would be for me to go three weeks without a session or buddying.
Erron: As I know you know it takes time for those most horrid feeling to resurface
For my part I never thought it would take almost 36 years to re-visit that major one. Yet I always knew it was there in the background.
The ‘dying’ feelings, are the most difficult to get into IMO.
Jack
Jack, it is amazing and I guess disappointing that it takes decades sometimes for some people to get to these major things. Even Arthur Janov writes in his blog recently of having feelings that he had not resolved in all the years of his involvement in primal.
Perhaps the bottom line is that there is a certain amount of relief to be had from an intensive period of therapy – be that months or years – but that we had better get used to the fact that this is a lifestyle, not some sort of timeout period. At least for some of us, anyway.
Erron
Jack,
36 years is indeed a long time. I know you feel it has been worthwhile.
Are there any particular ways in which going through this process has improved your life, resolved problems you were having in your life, or helped you change your own behaviour in a positive way?
Tim: 36 years!!!! Yes and no. It has been been more than worthwhile. It has added years to my life, and since I love life that’s a great advantage.
There are any number of ways I have reaped benefits. I am first and foremost way more sensitive to my surroundings and other people. I do still get irritated and angry, but I know these are MY feelings … and I can own them and know that others in the present are not the cause … albeit that they are the catalyst. The root cause goes way back into my childhood mostly from my daddy but some from my mammy as well.
I feel a great deal more able to see why things are the way they are; even when I don’t like them. I have way more easy access to the EXPRESSION of my feelings (hope that makes sense).
One other is I feel more able to have fun especially with my partner and I am delighted that I have someone that care about me … as I do for him.
It’s somewhat harder to assess if my behavior, and I need others to let me know if they see it. I don’t see myself other than through how others re-act to me. However, I can accept way more easily how others feel about me, without it being a need to assert myself, or better still to defend myself. I know I am not perfect … whatever perfection is supposed to be.
I hope that this reply answers your questions. The only curiosity I have why you felt to need to ask? No biggie if you don’t want or, feel the need to respond. Feel free however to ask further question.
Jack
I ask because I think it is the big question: is this making your happier, richer, more satisfying?
Tim: I understand … it could be a big question for you. Which causes me to ask; “what did therapy do for you”?
It gave me access to a lot more fun and happiness … however, there is a caveat to the word happiness. ‘Happiness’ is something I feel is not persuable. Happiness, like all feelings is something that happens willy-nilly. I discovered early in my therapy that “trying” … for whatever: was forlorn. Something I feel most guru’s understand implicitly. The exception is our very own guru 🙂 🙂 . I quote from some I am aware of:- “Be here now”.
I was lucky in that I did not have an inordinate amount of suffering in my life. What misery and sadness I did have, I learned that in expressing it, it took on way less power. However, that did not come over a short period of time.
After my last posting, I thought I should have explained more what I meant by my first sentence:- “Yes and no” Yes; in so far as it was more than one third of my life … No; in the sense that I see this therapy as a process that will go on for the rest of my life. I don’t see Primal therapy in the sense that, that word generally implies Something to do and get over with.
Meantime, I do thank you for the opportunity to post all this on the blog.
Jack
Jack: Would it make any sense to you if I told you I went through a situation that was hundreds of times worse than what most of the 9/11 families went through? Just wondering aloud..
Guru: I am very aware that you must have gone through an awful lot, losing your mother at such an early age.
Whatever the means was; that you lost her.
The terror I experienced at just waking and finding my mammy gone … was horrific enough for me.
Let me add one other thing. I see you have a very wide vocabulary in the English language. I do admire that.
Jack
Chris: I do/did go into more detail in the book you that I want you to critique. Since I did post it on the blog I felt the need to be brief, enough only for the newcomers. It is my Primal scene and I know it is rearing it’s terrifying head.
I will indeed call you if and when I sense it’s on the rise … BUT it does worry me a little that it my push you to a place I feel you may not want OR, are not ready to face.
Maybe we can talk about it first.
Jack
sure Jack we can talk about it first, but I gotta tell you the way you put that, “it does worry me a little that it may push you to a place I feel you may not want OR, are not ready to face” feels condescending and makes me angry. AND It does not feel friendly.
If you have a genuine worry about me being pushed or unready rest assured the dangers are minimal. What I do when I feel unready or that I am being pushed is nod off or get distracted, so no real harm will come my way. I am not sure what you are worried about anyway. So feel free to call if you want/need to, and don’t you worry about me, I can take care of myself.
Chris: thanks for the response, and will do.
Talk soon maybe sooner … 🙂 🙂 .
Jack
You are an inspiration Jack in that even in later years you are still entering the fire to emerge more whole.
Larry: thanks; that makes me feel real good Larry.
It’s the different layers of that feeling (that I experienced in a very alien environment … way before I knew of this therapy) I now know I have to go through. All in it’s own good time.
Jack
I saw such a good program on tv just now.
it is in a serie of programs with the same young cook visiting all kind of specific groups of people all over the world, cooking with them and learning from them about their habits and rules, and spending time with them getting to know them.
today it was a program that was filmed just one street away from where I live, in a kosher restaurant.
the restaurant owner was funny, full of self irony about all the rules of his religion, while at the same time sincerely dedicated to following them.
it was interesting, he was open and as i say, full of irony in a very friendly intelligent way, parts were filmed at home and in the synagogue, but what struck me very much was one brief part where the young cook was asking the restaurant owner, a chassidic Jewish man, about his family.
he has plenty of brothers and one sister, and his elderly mom was sitting at the table as well.
then, and it is hard to get across how it came up, almost incidentally but also shocking and very touching, the talk came on family members lost and it turned out that mom had lost 79 family members in the war years.
it was silent for a moment, the young cook asked if she had been able to process all that grief, and the owner, one of her 11 sons, said ‘no, that kind of grief is not possible to process’, and he added but we say ‘but the sun, the sun always shines again every day’.
such a nice view into the life of these people, so open and friendly and with a great sense of humor.
and before any long discourse follows, these orthodox people here in town do not believe in the current state of Israel so please no lectures or rants, even if only out of respect for them, me and my feeling about those particular family that was being portrayed.
this has nothing to do with all the political situations that indeed are wrong in so many places in this world, including in Israel and Palestina.
but always singular people are who they are, regardless of how crazy governments or fanatic people are, no group of people is homogenous, all individuals only sharing some aspects and not agreeing on others.
openness, respect, communication and goodwill, and the shades become so much richer than black and white, not only shades of grey either, but all kind of colours so to say.
right now they are saying goodbye to each other, the young cook and the family and it is touching, as they all find it hard to say goodbye.
a beautiful program about people showing who they are in a vulnerable and open way.
will look at next programs of this serie as it is about so much more than food and cooking, about people meeting each other in the true sense of the word.
M
Margaret? Can you kindly indulge me for a second with a hypothetical question? Just for fun? I was curious to know how you think this group might have reacted if you had told them you participate in a psychological group (Primal) whose founder Janov explains that the human brain is only an exquisitely complex organ which is extremely perishable, delicately susceptible to ruination, and has the consistency of soft butter. During this hypothetical you further explained that if we all had serious injuries to our soft buttery brains there would no longer be any religious concepts to grasp as they would have evaporated into nothingness just like the morning dewdrops. How do you believe this group would have reacted to your saying what I just wrote?
I’m not asking this question to be a smartass or confrontational, but rather I am genuinely curious as to how they would react to it. Thanks.
Margaret, I love meeting religious people like that (not all religious people, that’s for sure!): Devout and yet at the same time capable of seeing the ironies in, and expressing humour at their devotions.
Erron
This morning I knew none of my work colleagues expected me to work today. They just expected me to show up eventually for lunch, visit, clean out my desk and sign exit documents.
During winter at work I spend all of my time at the research lab on campus. In the spring, summer and fall on the other hand, half of the time I’m also at the research farm on the edge of town. I decided that this morning I would go to their morning coffee break to say good-bye to colleagues at the research farm, not having seen them since last autumn. On the way I picked up two dozen doughnuts for them.
Upon parking my car in the research farm yard and walking to the two buildings to visit various people, I immediately was disturbed by a nostalgia for this outdoor workplace that I was now saying good-bye to– that gave me much meaning and satisfaction during my more than two decades of work life here. I felt ‘How can I leave this place that anchored me so much?’ I ended up visiting there for a couple of hours. It was nice but getting to feel uncomfortable being in the spotlight of attention, everyone happy for me and giving me well wishes. Then drive back to the campus lab to be available for my retirement luncheon, and more attention and well wishes.
I don’t want to go into all the details, except to say that back at the lab there was more of being the center of attention, of being the recipient of more well wishes from colleagues, through my work email, as I walked the hallways, and as they assembled with me for the drive to my retirement lunch. One after another, the barrage of heartfelt warm wishes all morning hammered away like on a chisel cracking open my defensive, protective shell. I started feeling overloaded with attention and well wishes. More and more I hurt inside from colleagues good feelings and attention for me. I wanted to recoil and hide away from it all, but because they and the workplace meant a lot to me, even more I wanted to try to enjoy a proper and meaningful goodbye ending my decades-long association with them.
Getting so much attention all morning felt more and more surreal. I was no longer one of them, hiding safely amongst them at a social function for someone else. This time I was the center, cradled in their good-byes and happiness for me, melting from the good vibes they were giving me, needing more and more to cry, knowing that being as I am socially timid I likely will never see most of them again.
I’m most comfortable at following. At the restaurant colleagues took their cue from me. I felt awkward being expected to take the lead to the buffet. During the meal I wanted to give each and every one there with me my attention, yet I couldn’t stand much attention. I had a difficult time focusing on anyone in any proper conversation. My socializing felt forced, disconnected, hap hazard, distracted to this group or that group of people. But they know me, they understand and accept my dislike of attention and they just were there for me. I felt happy but overwhelmed that 24 of them came to see me off at my retirement lunch.
Only when the meal was over and I stood up to address them all in a goodbye, did I finally feel connected to them all, as I spoke several heartfelt phrases about what they and the workplace have meant to me.
Afterward they told me I did well at the lunch. But I felt sad for me. I also sensed that though they were happy for me, some felt sad to see me go. As the afternoon edged on, more and more I needed to cry. How could I have made this decision to leave this work community and this work life that had meant so much to me? But better to leave while I’m at a peak rather than stay too long into old age and start to hate the place.
Of course in the afternoon as soon as I got home I cried. Somehow, though so alone, I succeeded in meaningfully making it to this stage of life. And now so alone to face the future. Always so alone deep inside. So closed off and hurting because there was no one. All the attention today shone deep into me on what I desperately needed but never got. I’m starting to awaken to a time when I was somewhat less damaged, when it was a normal healthy condition that I, a little boy felt a need for attention from auntie and uncle. Not much later, after one more move, I couldn’t reach out to Mommy and Daddy, I couldn’t let myself need them, or anyone, because Mommy and Daddy were unavailable to me. They were strangers. They were deadened. They were dead to me. It’s a lifelong truth I’m waking up to, as I connect to 4 year old me and cry infinite sadness for the awful empty future that 4 year old me is finally understanding had unfolded.
Phil and Otto lamented recently that they hadn’t experienced intimacy with the opposite sex until in their early twenties. Reading about their anguish stirred me to contemplate my childhood deprivation that left me afraid to approach girls/women. Noreen was my first and only girlfriend. I was 31. So late in life to finally make human connection. I was so fortunate to have her in my life for a while. I would never have made it this far otherwise.
I have seen and felt enough of the source and truth of my aloneness now that I think I won’t be paralysed by it in retirement. I think I can face the future. I think I understand myself well enough and can summon sufficient will to try to make something of the future and hope it won’t always be empty. But anything can happen, good or bad. We are vulnerable to anything that might come our way and squash our life. We know that from experience.
There has been too much aloneness in my childhood and early life. I’ll probably never feel and resolve all of it in my lifetime. I’ve been badly damaged by it, beaten and withdrawn into a protective shell. I have to try to understand it and what it did to me, emerge from it as much as I can to eek out what quality of life I can in the time I have left. I’m the only one that can do it for me. It feels like a daunting responsibility.
Once more your descriptions of aloneness and social awkwardness really resonate with me, Larry. I have immense respect for the courageous manner in which you face all of this. I love reading your posts, even though they are so eloquently and simply put that I usually feel powerless to do justice to them in my replies. I can only say that you have brought up a lot of feelings in me, and I am thinking of you and wishing you all the best as you move forward into whatever there is.
Erron
Larry: You are indeed very eloquent … and you description of today’s events, gave me a feeling that you getting through all this. I do feel there will be quite a few pleasant surprises in retirement.
The loneliness thing is without doubt very debilitating BUT I feel strongly there is someway though it.
Least-ways, for you I sincerely hope so.
Jack
Larry,
It sounds like it was a very eventful day. I can relate to those feelings on a last day of a job.
You referred to what I mentioned about difficulties with intimacy and relationships; well the lack of. That’s what made me seek therapy to begin with.
I remember my wonderful therapist Jean Jackson in New York who helped me so much. She actually pushed me to approach female patients at the Institute there. I didn’t do that and still had no successes in that area until a few years later. But the very important lesson being nothing can happen without trying, and that has to happen even if it isn’t easy.
Phil
my typing teacher in 8th grade played this to keep us in rhythm. another friend had turned me on to switched on bach at a similar time. i made many trips to the library on my bike to check out beautiful classical music and listened to these records in my lonely house. ha! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxh6HwssY30
i am very frightened. i have never felt such horribly strong winds in my life. i am hoping the tree in the backyard makes it through the night without crushing me or my neighbors.
UG,
the question you ask, about how that group of people would react, is an illustration of the wrong approach, of the core of the problem we humans tend to create.
in the situation you describe, every single person might answer in a different way.
i only heard the restaurant owner and his mom, and he would certainly have said something like that anyone is free to have his own view and opinion, and that he prefers to stick to the rules and guidelines set by his ancestors.
which does not mean he would reject all factual data of course, but only he can say what his answer to your questions would be, not me, and not a group.
he told a joke in his restaurant, one of several jokes, about the 613 commandments they have , not to mention the commandments of his wife, instead of the ten commandments christians have.
he said Moses went back and forth between god and the people , Jewish people in his case, and they asked if all those commandments were free, and took them..
just an example of him not being a stern bitter fundamentalist.
most of the community here adhere to the viewpoint the messiah has not returned yet, and until then there is no true new homeland.
but I do not even know if that is his opinion, as I say, people are individuals, while grouping them is politics, or racism, or prejudice.
groups can be dangerous for the participants who get carried along losing their individuality, but no group is homogeneous and the majority of people are no fanatic members of a group.
so, wrong question.
M
Margaret: I don’t really think my question is “wrong” for I would have found it to be a fascinating sociological experiment overall even if individual responses displayed marked differences within the group as a whole (mortified? disgusted? sneering? perplexed? suspicious? curious?). Your background descriptions were enjoyable for me to read overall, though, and thanks for taking some time to address my post.
Margaret: An excellent response to Guru. AND I totally agree. We each have our opiniins dating back to early child-hood events.
Jack
A lot of the background material Margaret provided was indeed charming to read, but other statements I found slightly inflammatory and misjudging the purpose of my question to her.
Guru,
Who was your question really for? In that it was just a TV program it seems doubtful trying to guess how anyone being filmed might respond. With that in mind, could it be that the question was really for Margaret, all of us, or something about atheism which triggers you to ask such a thing.
Phil
Phil, if you reread my original question it was for my own curious sociological amusement. The question was just for Margaret because of what she talked about, nothing more. I’m not sure why you are assuming my question was for anyone but Margaret. What made you think I was being triggered?
This blog has nothing to do with “curious sociological amusement”. Most of us are not here for cerebral masturbation. If you can’t talk about feelings, why do you even hang around here?
And most of us are not here to put each other down with insults. If you can’t blog without compulsively disrespecting others asking questions which have absolutely nothing to do with you, why do you even hang around here?
Within the minimal bounds of civility and respect for others, I see no reason why someone should tell another person how to act or what to say on the blog. I never tell anyone else what they should do or say on the blog except some variation of, “Stop being a fucking asshole!” when the civility I extend towards others is not reciprocated towards myself.
If you were in a group you would be very quickly pulled up for your pseudo-intellectual bullshit. I know this isn’t group therapy, but it is a feeling blog devoted to therapy based on exploration and resolution of historic trauma.
I stand by what I said. Your head tripping and all your “pretty thoughts” are nothing but a defence. There is nothing to do with feelings in them, and they will not lead to anything to do with feeling. If I get under your skin, I can only say I’m glad to at least have helped you acknowledge that you do have feelings rumbling away under that titanium surface you project to the world.
Guru,
I would like to point out that earlier today you insulted me with your emotional immaturity comment when all I was doing was continuing our discussion and had no idea you were experiencing it as some kind of ordeal.
While sitting at my computer I can’t always know or predict how people are reacting to comments.
I wasn’t trying to insult you, Phil. I truly was concerned because I felt my simple Q&A with you had suddenly turned into a game of one-upmanship instead of working as collaborative adults. By extension of what you see with me, doesn’t Janov insult us all by telling us we are all emotionally immature through our act-outs anyway?
Guru,
I guess I felt it an odd question to ask and because you’ve posted other times on
the topic of Janov’s theories and attitude toward religion.
Phil: I was more interested in the clash of ideas between two unacquainted groups and speculating on possible results. As for Janov, he can take complete materialism to the grave with him if he wants; that’s fine with me.
Guru,
But can’t you could perform this same experiment yourself with a group you’re unacquainted with. Go to a church synagogue, or mosque You can tell “them you participate in a psychological group (Primal) whose founder Janov explains that the human brain is only an exquisitely complex organ which is extremely perishable, delicately susceptible to ruination, and has the consistency of soft butter. During this hypothetical you further explained that if we all had serious injuries to our soft buttery brains there would no longer be any religious concepts to grasp as they would have evaporated into nothingness just like the morning dewdrops. How do you believe this group would” react? My reaction is that the human brain does not at all have a consistency of soft butter. It’s more like the insides of a not quite ripe pumpkin.
That sounds like a terrific idea, Phil! Nothing should stop you from having the honor of bearing the tastiest fruits of your creation by giving your idea the world’s very first attempt. Who knows? Maybe it would encourage the scared child within me to follow suit behind your courageous trailblazing as you try out your new idea. I recommend a minimum sample size of 200 congregants, and you may need to be ready to use a microphone or shout so everyone can hear you. When will you be ready to try this out? And who’s going to volunteer to put this on YouTube?
Guru,
I had you in mind since it was your question. It could be tried out in Times Square or the equivalent in your town. Go to the center of town with a portable amp, mike, and some pumpkins. Tell them “Your world ends with you. the end of the world is coming”, as you smash a pumpkin.
Do you think you’d get some recruits for your cult?
Phil, my question to you is: Why did you want to ratchet this whole ordeal up to such a high level of daring when all I did was ask Margaret to speculate on a hypothetical question as I knew full well no one would actually carry out such a task?
I did take the time to answer your questions regarding Janov, triggers, sociology, etc. and I was ready to be done with it. This game of daring or “chicken”, as some would call it, displays certain characteristics of emotional immaturity and it sincerely has me concerned.
Guru,
Nothing has been ratcheted up, it hasn’t been an ordeal, nor have you answered any questions that I can see.
Wow! OK, well, that’s fine, then. We all have our blind spots as it’s only human. See you later.
Guru
What’s that supposed to mean? I’m at work and leaving now. All I can say is that the discussion has kept me somewhat entertained. But sorry if that hasn’t been the case for you.
Guru,
It was you I was talking to and who called me emotionally immature, not Janov. But
OK, I’ll accept that you did it unintentionally. I did find the image of you in the downtown
area of your city with a mike and amp humorous; it even goes with your guru moniker.
That comment really wasn’t meant to be taken seriously
My conversations on the blog today completely wiped out the after-lunch work I needed to attend to, so I have to give this a rest.
Erron, I’m glad that we have this therapy, tough though it is to do, and that you are embracing it to heal your way out of your Hell.
Jack; I have to respond to you down here because the thread above does not allow a continuation. I am only going to tell you there is much much more involved than the isolated consideration of attendant emotional components involved with “losing mommy”.
I don’t want to re-hash all the additional factors involved. It’s WAY too long and cumbersome of an explanation to cover all the dangerous particulars. Just know that poking at me is not the solution. You’re going after the wrong guy!
Guru: If I have this therapy right (and I grant that is questionable) one needs to feel, then express that feeling in order for it to have less valance.
How and why it happened, as I see it, is irrevelvant … to the vunerable baby at the time it occured.
It is just this one point that I don’t see you expressing (mentioning) on the blog. That’s all,
Jack
The therapy stuff is only a fraction of the entire picture. I would dare to say a relatively small fraction. It’s way, way too much for me to provide an in-depth explanation all the factors involved with potentially only infinitesimal gains in doing so this evening. (And these are real-life adult factors, to boot). I have to leave it at that.
Stealing your QED.
I need to satisfy a slightly guilty conscience here. There’s no doubt that there are plenty of people who have had it worse off than myself. One thing I am grateful for is that I did grow up in an upper middle-class household where my parents, aunts & uncles, and grandparents wanted me and loved me the best way they knew how. Even though my mother’s side of the family was largely decimated, I still had some time to try to build a comprehensive understanding of exactly what I was dealing with thanks to help from my father’s side as I was growing up.
I just get tired of dealing with people who are senselessly poking away at me when it only adds up to mindless irritation that truly leads nowhere. Many (if not most) of the acute dangers I faced are intensely ephemeral in nature (and believe me, this was NOT by my own choice!). They are reflective of an incredibly dark side of society’s dependence on technological automation.
University of Colorado law professor Paul Campos (of “Inside the Law School Scam” fame) wrote this article back in ’07:
I have a feeling it required a lot of balls on his part to write that article. Just because it required balls for him to say it doesn’t make it less true. He certainly had more courage than me!
Guru,
I thought you were saying more or less the same thing.
Phil: The difference between Paul Campos & I is that he attached his name and professional reputation (as a law professor, no less!) to that article which was widely distributed throughout the country’s many thousands of news media outlets. I am only an anonymous citizen on an obscure blog.
Guru
911 is no longer getting much press. It’s changed over to Donald Trump, and ISIS. On the blog I would say it’s the Holocaust which lately has been mentioned the most. Which topic would you like to get the most attention in the press or on the blog?
Phil, I really have to go for now, OK? Maybe you’re bored at work and I understand that, but I gotta tear myself away from here for a while to finish other things.
To answer your post, it doesn’t matter to me what topic gets the most attention right now. I swear to God it’s going to take me ages to fully explain the dangers I had in operating with ultra-limited information when I was a child and early adulthood. That, in a nutshell, is more related to why I posted Campos’ article.
Sayonara!
Guru,
If you want you can come back at your convenience to respond. Maybe you could greatly summarize what it was like for you operating with ultra-limited information as a child and young adult.
Boil it down to a few paragraphs or less as to what that felt like. You won’t be graded.
Guru: for once I agree with you in principle; BUT the question IMO goes way deeper than Paul Campos indicated. Put aside the principles of Primal Theory for a moment; what I find is never discussed is:= why someone would want to act in the way that so called terrorist act?
When I attended the Werner Erhard EST seminar trainings; way back in the late seventies, there was a saying that it was not a case of:- “cause and effect” BUT “Effect, effect, effect” ad infinitum. To phrase it diffeerently, what “caused the cause”?
We (the ones believing we are not terrorist) actually create the terrorist by virtue of our actions towards other people. We humans are for ever BLAMING the other guy for whatever. Little realizing we’re part of the whole “fuck-up”.
That is briefly, the most I am able to do on this blog.
Jack
That’s fine, Jack. I do have a lot of things I could say in response to you here requiring hundreds, if not thousands of pages of writing. No, not denigrating stuff, just things you may not be seeing or understanding without a much fuller explanation of what I would have to say. It would take way too long and too much energy with only minimal gains since we’re powerless voices in the wilderness here, anyway.
With that I will take my leave for a bit, too.
Hi Everyone: I have just had a terrible night.
I woke up just after mid-night, as Jim was passing through my bedroom on the way to his. He gave me a hug then went off to his room. He leaves Monday for Europe “The Netherland” for six weeks hoping to find a house for us in the south, near the Belgian border. After he left I started to cry knowing that I was going to miss him; even though my nephew and his wife will be here to take care of me.
Then I started having those mini convulsion again that I now know are while my mother was in labor with me for 9 hours. That changed and I then fell into this feeing of being upside down and feeling so cofused and crying. It all felt so weird and I felt I was going to scream.
I now know what that screaming and crying was a few days back with my buddy Chris. After being born and held by the legs by the doctor, they then put me into a nursery to give my mother a rest after her ordeal. My father arrive at the maternity hospital 10 minutes later and went to look at me through a glass window; I was screaming my head off. My father told me this, many years later and thought that was wonderful to see me screaming, thinking that was normal for new born babies, (idiot).
I didn’t get into that scream again, BUT felt it was right there on the surface. I was afraid to let go, being the middle of the night. I know I will go into it again, perhaps in the near future. Meantime I was unable to go to sleep, as I had done a lot of napping yesterday. Then at about 5:30 am this morning I fell asleep and had this horrific and very confusing dream trying to protect Jim, but he was very small and lots of people were trying to hit him and hurt him and I was desperately trying to save him for all those other people. It was a very weird dream and not totally sure what it all meant. Then I woke-up at 6:30 am, very scared. I then got up to have my breakfast.
The whole night was a nightmare. Still feeling it all right now, as I write this.
Jack
horrible dream last night. too horrible to recount the details here.
regularly I have nightmares in which some creature, very powerful and fast, but also completely evil and sadistic, is threatening to catch/hurt/kill me..
I wonder about where those dreams keep coming from, could it be my few years of religious indoctrination when I was still younger than 7, mostly at school or in church, have caused a traumatizing fear of the devil or something similar?
I do remember one terrifying dream as a kid about the devil, then in the shape of some black also very fast animal..
the feeling is mostly intense and acute fear, and a feeling of I might not make it..
other dreams with a bit of a similar feeling load are about evil men, sadists, rapists, murderers, seemingly planning to hurt or kill me
other times horses, which i love, frighten me, wanting to bite me, I must say in my youth I did know a number of very nasty horses, but the last dream I was in a stable and got cornered by an angry horse, with his hind part turning to me, coming very close,so close I had no way to get out in time, threatening to kick me and really hurt me badly, or worse.
the fear was so high I screamed ‘mama, mama!’ in the dream and then woke up, heart pounding..
i know these dreams will help to lead me gradually towards the source of all that fear, but it is frustrating not to be able to single out events or connections that lay at the root, unless it just relates to birth stuff.
still there is also a period when I was about two I was put for several weeks in some infant nursing home, and lord knows how it was there back in those days..
also all of a sudden being on my own in a strange setting at that age must have been traumatizing..
for weeks now I have been having strong neck pains which often cause headache, seems like tension related but it does affect me as I can only try to move enough to keep it from getting stuck, take some paracetamol or migraine medication if it gets really bad, and give myself a neck massage.
just contacted a friend for a possible real massage hopefully.
mom is fairly well, I passed my last exam, no codeing painkillers taken for weeks and weeks so just some problem out of life’s bag of unpleasant surprises, sigh…
cats became two years old this week, smiley sang Happy birthday for them and cooked them some fish and some cat nibbles as dessert..
they are still adorable, smiling just thinking of them..
M
Today I joined in with a local climate march that went on the “Walkway over the Hudson”.
Nobody was coming with me but I went anyway. It reminded me of so often in
the past wanting to do a lot of things, intending to do them, feeling doubtful, so hesitant,
lacking energy, because it’s not that much fun doing things alone. Very often I cancelled tentative plans I might have made because I just couldn’t do it. I recall setting my alarm clock with the good idea of
getting up in the morning to do something and then just shutting it off and going back to sleep.
I’m sure there’s so many more things I would have done or could have done if I had a few more friends. There’s certainly feelings behind this too, some of which I got to today. About how much I needed support and encouragement and didn’t get it, not from my mother, which is where my feelings went today.
Phil
hang on jack. hope today is better for you.
Margaret, those cats must love you so much!
Guru, that tickled my funny bone. “I am only an anonymous citizen on an obscure blog.” true, but sounds funny to me. HA! no disrespect intended. i definitely want to be one of those citizens.
I’m not offended, Otto. I wish I could understand better how you saw the humor in my statement, though. Being disembodied has its downsides and I know this from concrete experience.
Larry, powerful stuff you said about your last day at work. a lot of grief in your life. good luck to you.
Thanks Otto.
i greatly miss going to group this weekend. sick. i could get used to going to group, although it is always scary, and i doubt that i will ever emerge from my well-hardened, thick, dead shell at this point in my life. hmmmmm…..
white house correspondents dinner. smiling young kids being honored with their scholarships. makes me sad of course. they have whole lives ahead of them, their dreams intact, and mentors. me not.
oooh, that hits home. Makes me kind of sad too.
I have had in mind to post this for sometime, But wanted to wait for an appropriate moment. Not sure, as of now, what an appropriated moment is, however, I suspect I will come in for some flak posting it, be that as it may.
In my first book “Gospel According to Jack: To Deliver us From Neurosis; (I called it a “Gospel” that word meaning ‘The Good Word’). The ending finished up with:-
Jack’s gospel in brief:
1) Neurosis is 99% of all our problems.
2) Feelings are everything; all else is irrelevant.
3) Thinking, without connecting it to the feeling that creates it, is neurotic.
4) Our cultures are our self-made prisons where we incarcerated ourselves.
5) Civilization is our curse, not our redemption.
6) Learning is simple; teaching is complicated and convoluted.
7) Once the problem is truly defined, it’s simple. It’s the solution that is
complicated.
8) Economics is the quagmire which entrapped us.
9) “Free market practices” is an oxymoron. It is anything but free.
10) Religion (believing) is the root of all evil, not the love of money.
11) To go from rules to laws, then laws to politics, then politics to
money, is crazy.
12) Politicians don’t have answers, only egos.
13) I feel, therefore I be (exist).
14) Child-rearing is slavery: potential parents should fully understand this
hardship.
15) Life’s about experiencing it—billions of moments—just like now.
Jack
Jack, I am not going to give you “flak” for posting this. You presented a nice, organized list of what you believe for all of us to see. Nothing wrong with that.
We can agree to disagree on many items, fair enough?
Guru: Fine and thanks for acknowledging they are just my feelings/opinions and ideas.
Jack
Jack,
You wrote this list over twenty years ago now, didn’t you? I’m sure your ideas must have evolved and changed a lot since then, especially since so many of our most strongly held beliefs are driven by old feelings, not to mention simply hearing and reading about fresh ideas.
Tim: I wrote that book way less than over twenty years ago. And actually I posted them here precisely because I still think and feel they are relevant today … for me at least. These “beliefs” or whatever you want to call them. are a result of thinking before writing the book, for over 20 years. I wrote it to convey my ideas about the “Implications” of Primal therapy/theory.
For and to me nothing I’ve read or heard since “The Primal Scream” has bettered it.
Certainly in terms of my ideas of the ‘implication of Primal Theory’ my notions have NOT changed … progressed, I would say If there are any changes they would be minor additions to some of the chapters and maybe even on one or two additions for example:- I would lay more emphasis on seeing ‘money’ as being the greatest inhibitor to our ‘real’ human nature. I would certainly add, for me “Struggling”. If I find myself struggling; then I know I am doing it wrong and need to approach the problem from a different angle.
(continued)
Granted that most of our “BELIEFS” are an ‘out-growth’ of old feelings.
I need to say say at this point Tim: I found there to be something behind you posting this comment. It felt a little “schnide” … to me.
Jack
Jack,
If I am being snide it means I am not being straightforward and honest about how I feel, which is a fair criticism.
You are obviously doing very well, you stay lively, articulate and, as far as I can see, pretty cheerful as you get on in years.
You seem to find great comfort in your belief in primal therapy and no-one should criticize you for following the path that suits you best. Whether or not this actually opens up your mind to new ways of looking at things and feeling about them really is none of my business.
But I see others here who seem to be focused on their pasts in search of misery when they might be better off looking to the future and seeking happiness.
Tim, just to comment a bit about your view of some being focused on misery rather than happiness. I think it is hard to read about each others problems, especially at first it was for me here. But as I dug out my own bad feelings it opened up for me more of a capacity to experience joy, which I hope we all want for ourselves and each other. I think it’s good to have a positive attitude. I think most here want a good life. At the beginning of therapy though, I think there is a lot of misery and confusion to go through so it seems happiness is illusory.
I think it’s good that you said something about how you feel about it. I don’t think any of us would go through the pains if we didn’t expect something good to come out of it. I am for treating ourselves well and having fun too.
S
Tim,
From what you posted, it seems like you have confusion about how the therapy works and why people come on the blog and write what they do.
Tim: I don’t think I need to add to what Sylvia, Margret and Phil had to say to you, BUT I will add one other aspect to doing this therapy from my perspective. I am beginning now to have these screaming bouts, two yesterday, one with my buddy Chris, and then that follows with these mini convulsions as I call them which now reveal themselves as pre-birth feelings. I say the following with very a very strong conviction … they are not bit deal. I just do them, like I eat my dinner … it’s part of life.
The one thing that I have a very strong conviction about is; the the pursuit of happiness, is a myth. The more one tries to be happy … the more it is likely to elude one. Similarly I don’t thing anyone doing this therapy; seeks out misery. All feeling come to us all in their own good way and time. They have a life of their own. Least-ways; that how it seems to me.
One last point … it seems to me that the ones that did not get the essence of this therapy but tried it; are all hell bent on saying what a failure it was. I can only suppose that the more they convince themselves it was such a failure … makes them feel good about NOT getting it.
Meantime this is just me, my notions … that’s all.
Jack
I probably should not write here but I came across something. Apparently a few hundred years BC the Jews were invaded and taken over by a Syrian/Greek king the temple destroyed etc. Anyway his main ‘punishment’ was to outlaw the Temple and ban circumcision (This was at the time the Hanukkah feast started)
Same thing happened with the Romans the general Pompey basically did the same ‘punishment’ but what I focus on the banning circumcision part. which he also did
Of course the unfortunate result is the Jews become more than ever devoted to this ‘practice’ and now even among non observant Jews it is the one thing they seem to hold onto. Anyway I thought about these ancient time if only they had ‘listened’ or really to come to our own day if they would even listen now. I believe stopping doing ‘habit’ this might be the BEGINNING of an improvement in their way of ‘thinking’. Otherwise we are doomed which it seems we are anyway as changing their way of thinking is about the last thing they would do. Even experienced primal therapists can’t seem to do better than call people bad names who even approach anything of this subject
Gilad Atzmon quote “The real measure of Jewish power is the issue of Jewish power can never be discussed” I like this guy Atzmon very much he is Jewish, born in Israel but unlike most is seriously trying to come to terms with a problem which has a big chance to bring us to WW3 or is WW3 already ongoing? In many ways I think it is
Phil,
I can relate to missing friends to do stuff with.
I know there is more for you going on and it is good to hear you can connect to the underlying feelings.
UG, why do you so often add these kind of enigmatic riddles in your comments?
like the one about the concrete experience with feeling disembodied?
maybe it is your way to communicate a little about your stuff in what feels like a safe enough way, but it can come across as manipulating as well, to keep us wondering or something.
bottom line is I wish you would be more clear about what is on your mind and not only hint at it in some enigmatic way.
and Otto, yeah, I think my cats love me and love even more the food they like, smiley.
I am sure all your pets loved you and little Otto still does.
and for that shell you refer to, it seems to me at least you have broken it already and eve have one leg sticking out of it.
you have defubutely changed so much since you first came on the blog.
wish you well, M
Margaret, if you place an emphasis on the word concrete when I used the phrase
“concrete experience”, doesn’t that represent a downside for a disembodied, abstract being such as myself?
Never mind, I’m just a very weird person, OK? Lots of weird humor which is inscrutable for anyone but me.
bushman who live long lives with almost no symptoms of anxiety or insecurity…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JO3WCin41ao
ug, what do you mean by disembodied? stuck in your head?
Otto: Even though I fully appreciate the sincerity of your question, I will simply answer “No, it was a more abstract expression of circumstance” and discontinue this discussion. “Stuck in your head” is a strong trigger phrase here on the blog and it would be best to avoid addressing the potential implications (and complications!) surrounding your revisiting of that phrase.
Let’s just….slowly tiptoe away from this brush with verbal TATP, OK?
this was a long weekend, 1 May here being Labour day…
through saturday, sunday and monday i only had some brief phone conversations..
I feel so down, hard to describe the feeling of emptiness, my life is so lonely and empty right now.
I did text a friend who did not reply, she has the bad hapbit of ignoring her phone or delaying replying..
I did e-mail a friend I had not seen for a long time to invite her to accompany me to a performance of a soprano somewhere in a few weeks, but she was not free on that day, still it was nice to get minimally in touch with her and to hear her promise we would get together soon to catch up..
I did study a lot, and read and that is about it..
depressing..
it will probably get better when routine starts again, this afternoon I go to visit my mom which will take up from noon till after 6 pm.
feel sad my life is becoming more and more lonely.
gym was canceled on friday for the second time in a row, only found out there..
the weather does not cooperate either and the blog was silent.
sigh….
should try another dating site soon, for seniors this time, can’t stand my life being so empty.
tried playing some piano, had some recorded classes from the blingd guy from Cabo Verde, but shit, the two tunes I wanted to learn are not complete on his recording, the chords for part of the songs are not there and it is hard for me to search how they go..
feel so tired and angry for all the hardships of life, don’t know why angry, as I have made plenty of mistakes myself and carry some responsibility for my situation, but I think the anger or resentment is part of the old feeling of not counting, not mattering as an individual person as a child..
what about me, who cares?
anyway, am still entirely clean, so nothing to blame myself for at this point, and for the rest I can only try to make things a bit better..
anger and sadness stuck inside for the moment, and fear I guess….
sigh..
M
Margaret,
That sounds very hard, I hope things will improve with more going on.
Phil
I seem to remember the Bushmen were also a tribe without violence or hostility towards their neighbors, which probably were not many as they lived in remote parts of the continent..
which makes me think of some interesting stuff I learned in my actual course of introduction to health psychology.
apparently it has shown there is a group of people, type A, who are more than twice as much running the risk for coronary heart diseases.
they are competitive in general, wanting to start and win discussions and all kinds of fights.
and they are often in a state of hurry and urgency.
they are often angry and hostile, either expressing it or not.
they use a loud voice, trying to dominate conversations with little to no regard for the other participants and often hostile when disagreed with.
they also have a tendency for abdominal fat storage, which makes them also prone to develop diabetes.
another item, maybe some kind of hope for the possible type A between us, is that it has also been discovered that not only exercise but also disclosure diminishes stress levels , with some immediate effects on stress hormones in the blood and blood pressure etc.
even when people are asked to write down stuff about a stressful event they experienced, it diminishes stress levels, but talking about it works even better.
that is an interesting piece of factual experimental scientific findings to keep in mind for me to possibly use as a handle if ever I will have to write some assignment and want a link to primal therapy…
I had an example of the beneficial effect of disclosuure already this morning as after sharing on the blog my feelings of emptiness I felt significantly better.
M
Tim, who are you referring to?
and how do you know that dealing with their past is not at the same time a good way to improve their present and future?
to be honest I have no clue who you are talking about, as your criticism does not sound like making sense to me.
everyone here, at this moment, seems to be working hard on making their own lives better.
what really is your problem?
did you try therapy and did you feel disappointed in some way yourself?
Margaret
When you’re in pain you’re in pain, beginning, middle or decades on in therapy…
https://www.yahoo.com/gma/couples-elderly-dog-lives-just-long-enough-welcome-221806331–abc-news-pets.html
Thanks for that, Otto. It brought up feelings when I was not expecting them this morning as I read it.
m. !
ug, i dont know what tatp is. basically i was asking you what your pain was. i will not do that again. i feel ok with sharing my various pains. no biggie. so sorry.
Otto: Thanks for your empathy, but I’m afraid you misunderstood what I was trying to say. TATP is a highly unstable explosive susceptible to detonation with standard rough handling. When you asked if I was “stuck in my head” I knew that is a strong trigger phrase in the Primal community with all sorts of unpredictable results reverberating throughout the blog much like an unstable explosive. I felt that you question should only be handled with care as a result. By the way, I hyperlinked the TATP in my post regarding this topic.
I thought I might put in my two cents regarding Tim’s comment. First I did want to say that I do think you are quite straightforward Tim. I like that about you and I have the feeling that you are thoughtful about your comments and about any feedback you might get. That being said I do wonder if you might have had a previous relationship with Jack and whether there might be something going on there. In any case…. I don’t think it’s about looking towards the past or the future necessarily. I think it’s about being in the moment as much as we possibly can. Easier said then done of course. Most people come to therapy for basically the same reasons. They are in pain, unable to maintain relationships and struggling with any number of act outs or what might be described as paralysis. I think most people seek out therapy when nothing else has really worked to address these issues. They seek out this therapy, I believe, when they have an awareness that the answer to these problems lies somewhere in their past . I think it is a common misconception to believe that Primal people are only focused on the past vs that they are dealing with the past as a way of living more effectively in the present. I believe that we can’t feel any feeling if we can’t feel all our feelings. In other words unless we can allow ourselves to feel sad we can’t allow ourselves to be happy either. We can’t look to the future or live in the moment if we have avoided the past. At least that is my experience. Being on the blog is a bit like observing a group. People arrive to discuss what feelings they are dealing with but that is only a very small piece of who these people are as individuals. Lastly, if an idea presented here is rejected I don’t think that necessarily means there is not an openness to new ideas but rather that the specific idea presented is rejected and nothing more. Gretchen
Gretchen,
You are right, I have known Jack for many years; he has always been friendly to me, never rude or unpleasant. But, Jack, you do have this tendency to pontificate, which I find very annoying. This is quite possibly because I tend to do the same thing myself. “People who think they know everything are a great annoyance to those of us who do” – Asimov.
Coming to L.A. for primal therapy was a positive thing for me because it gave me a fresh start. I was truly independent for the first time in my life. I stopped drinking, which I felt was de rigeur in England, made new friends and started playing football again. In other words, stopped trying (unsuccessfully, of course) to be cool, and started having fun.
It is hard to separate all this from primal itself, so while I got something out of the therapy, it is hard to know exactly how much.
primal therapy didn’t prepare me very well for being a parent, although every day I see afresh my own flaws as a person, and how I let down my kids because of how I am.
I have found other schools of thought have given me a better understanding myself and of the world. Of course, this might be because they were in addition to benefits I had already received from Primal.
I feel a bit stupid even posting this but eff it I suppose.I wish I could write like that maybe that’s why I like Tim so much!. Makes a great change from my blundering, blustering take no prisoners attitude which has not gotten me much of what I want in life. I am aware I am doing my “Irish inferior” thing but the thing is the English are or certainly WERE cooler in my mind at least. A degree of sophistication that the starving Irish could not match not that they should be expected to though God knows I tried (and tried) . Just victims of colonialism to give an ‘explanation’ but the reality is worse (far). How could we or me be as cool as this though I did relate to the ‘communications breakdowns’
Larry, your comment to Otto made me open up his link to the story about Rocky..
it triggered me too, still does.
it is probably the idea of that dog in the shelter, the utter loneliness and hopelessness , then the happy times luckily, and then still the dying..
it triggers my own sadness apparently, which felt stuck today, just tension and a feeling of uneasiness, now finally coming out in tears that feel better in a way, though still so sad and lonely and hopeless..
a girlfriend would come by today but at the last moment postponed it to tomorrow which triggered a strong feeling of emptiness..
otto, it has crossed my mind a few times already it might be good for you, and for several animals, if you go by a shelter and maybe help them out in some way, or adopt some pets again?
I know you mentioned the bills you are still paying off, but maybe some volunteer work now and then, you might get something out of it and the animals surely will as well.
maybe I am saying this as your feelings are too similar to mine, mmm.
it seems always easier to find solutions for someone else doesn’t it?
signed up for a meeting in university in two weeks, at least some social gathering, and hopefully gym class tomorrow, it was canceled two weeks in a row and I am desperate for social contact..
boy, those tears feel like they washed away some poison out of my system, there is more but it feels good at least some of the tension and stuckness was released..
even tension headache seems to be diminishing already..
glad for Rocky and his luck to meet two good people and little Hazel.
it makes me feel a bit better to hear there still are nice people around, this world feels like such an indifferent place sometimes, old feeling I know but well, it is there anyway…
ordered a book from a lady telling stories about her cats, read a little preview and it was adorable and funny, and the audio version had all kinds of meows and some strong and intense purring in it as well, purring sounds sooo soothing and healing!!
wish you the best Otto, and the rest of you too of course.
we can all use some kindness in our lives can’t we?
M
Margaret, what got me about Otto’s video about Rocky the dog is that though the couple who adopted him knew he was old and wouldn’t live much longer, they still felt the pained loss of him when he died, even while their newborn daughter had entered their lives. They did everything right to make a loving, happy home, then a cherished part near the heart of it gets torn away. No matter how much they want to change the outcome and bring him back it can’t be done. The vacuum left is forever. Their feeling is very familiar to me.
Tim,
I am curious as to those other ways of thought that were useful to you as well, do you feel like expanding a bit about them?
and about what it is you feel you got out of your primal experience?
M
Hi Margaret,
I enjoy the intelligence and kindheartedness of your posts here.
One example: Recently I chose to read a book about negotiating. I didn’t expect much, but being a lousy negotiator, I hoped to learn at least something useful.
In fact, the book has been a complete revelation for me.
I have always considered negotiating as synonymous with haggling, but this author, who had worked for the FBI in hostage negotiations, explains it as a lot more.
The most important thing, he says, is to find out what the other person really wants, which very often is not what they say, or even think, they want. And that means listening and showing empathy for them, but without necessarily agreeing with them.
Another point he made was that almost all relationships involve negotiation, which to me, at first, sounded calculating and cold. However, his point is that we would be more contented if we took more effort to find out what others really want, and also insist upon getting the things that are dearest to us.
The book has had a profound effect on me because it made me realize ways in which I could communicate differently with people to obtain different results. Of course, what to me is front page news might be obvious to other people; something they have been doing without thinking about it all their lives.
I can recall lying on the floor at the PI, years ago now, realizing that in our family we never had proper conversations. Or at least, never asked each other how we thought or felt about things. Unfortunately it has taken me 37 more years to learn this little bit more.
Because the idea of my parents asking me how I felt or what I thought was totally foreign to me, I never did that for my kids either.
It might sound silly, but I have never explored the idea of listening to someone, encouraging them to explain themselves, showing interest, yet expressing neither agreement or disagreement. I tend towards either hearty approval or outright argument.
Oh, dear, this is going on a bit and I am still not sure if I have conveyed what i wanted.
Anyway, the exciting thing for me about the book was that it suggested ways I could improve my communications with my sons, and in turn help them a little.
Tim: I read this comment of yours with great interest, and I think what the guy said was right on … however, I learned the very same with this therapy, but more recently by buddying where what is required is to just listen. It might sound easy to just listen, but that has been a very hard lesson for me. Now I realize that if I am willing to listen long enough the other person will eventually get round to telling exactly what is going on with them. I find it doesn’t need me to try and drag it out of them. It was so revealing for me.
I was always ready with an answer, often before the other person had finished talking. I recollect I did that a lot with my brother and we both had this same habit. My mother did it also, especially with her sister. Perhaps that where I picked it from.
Great lesson Tim, and a great comment.
Jack
Thanks, Jack
Tim, Thanks for your response. This is my opinion of course but I think there may be a reason you felt Primal did not prepare you for parenthood. That is because nothing prepares you! I myself only have two pretty good pieces of advice for parents raising children. As a young therapist ( to be kind I will say as a younger therapist) I worked with many parents in therapy. This was long before I had my own child . Anyway about a week after I had Elle I remember thinking ” Oh shit I knew nothing ! I did not really understand on a deeper level “. I gave it a great deal of thought and luckily I could think of nothing egregious but still I think until you have a child there are just certain things you might not get. It’s possible that what Primal did give you is the ability to be introspective about your parenting or the willingness to cop to the ways in which you might have done a better job. That is a bigger deal than you might think and frankly few people are able to do that. It can be quite meaningful for our children to hear a simple ” I’m sorry” when we fail. You have mentioned these feeling about your kids once before and I was wondering if you would be comfortable discussing what exactly happened ? I understand if you are not. Gretchen p.s. Are you still not drinking?
Gretchen,
I appreciate you responding to me. Right now I don’t have the time or the stomach to go into it in more detail. There were just so many times, small in themselves, that I let the kids down.
As for drinking, well in England there was this drinking culture in which there always seemed to be pressure to drink another beer; “Come on, drink up, it’s your turn to buy a round”. I was glad to get away from it. Now I enjoy a drink but only when I’m in the mood. Mind you, I find it hard to enjoy pizza without a bottle of Sam Adams.
My great Aunt died around the time our first son was born. kinda like the dog and baby story. i have never cried about my Aunt, she was a good presence in my early life. i would go get an old animal out of the pound but it is too heartbreaking to go to the pound and i cant take any chances of needing to go to the vet$. all i can do now is take care of Sophie the dog as much as possible and whatever bug comes into my area and try to get them out of there. saw a dead animal on the road tonight; somebody at home is missing their pet and will never know what happened to it. it was too busy for me to pull over and see if it had a tag.
saw a column today about how crazy the u.s. was with north korea in the korean war era. too much napalm. anyway, mr. tr should get more points of view. maybe north korea man is so afraid the u.s. wants to take it over, that is why they want the bomb. of course. the u.s. has taken over many a country, so there is reason to be paranoid.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/war-north-korea-looked-1950s-132347468.html
I rarely listen to Lennon anymore since i listened over and over long time ago. GOING DOWN ON LOVE:
“Something precious and rare
Disappears in thin air
And it seems so unfair
Nothing doin’ nowhere” etc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hEWZqDmhQwk
Hi Everyone: This morning at 5:30 am I started with these mini convulsions again for two hours until I got out of bed. This time there was vocalizing (mini one second screams) with them. I was worried that I was going to waken everyone so did it into my pillow under the covers. Seemingly, I did not waken anyone.
Again I felt it all a prelude to a major major scream. The big worry is going into that event at about two years old, that I re-lived in the London Clinic: I’ve mentioned before. It does scare the hell outta me but I did it once in a very alien environment so it should not be quite as bad. The other problem with it was the first time I didn’t know it was possible to scream that loud and I am afraid I might bother the neighbors to the event that they call the police or an ambulance. Still!!!! I do have my nephew and his wife who I hope will take care of neighbors.
I have been feeling OK since I got up out of bed.
For now, Jack
It seems Prophecy is about to be Fulfilled. Praise God!
I wish you the best in sinking into that feeling, Jack. Whenever I suffocate my scream with a towel or pillow so not to frighten the neighbours, I feel I will suffocate, or lose the spontaneity of the feeling as I half concentrate on applying the towel/pillow at exhalation but not inhalation. Usually the scream eventually comes out unrestricted by a towel or pillow, just briefly but to my relief, and so far without having aroused concern from the neighbours in my condo building. Most of the time my feelings are quiet, or I seem to have learned how to primal quietly. Anyway, it is an exciting journey you are on Jack.
Larry: thanks for that response since it very helpful to know how others manage big feelings and especially the loud ones. I am taking advantage of Jim, my partner, being away for 6 weeks and to be able to rely on my nephew and his wife; who have no problem with me screaming.
I am not sure when he gets back what will happen, BUT I am hoping against possible hope that he will accept it. The problem is that ‘noise’ is one of the things that irritates him enormously: no matter who is making it. One example is neighbors talking within his earshot when he’s either sleeping or trying to concentrate on something that’s important to him. He has great hearing.
Jack
In 6 weeks you may have worked into enough of the feeling that you might not need to scream it anymore, possibly.
Or by then you may be quite familiar with the feeling and not so worried about whether screaming it upsets Jim or not.
Larry: Yep another likelihood.
Jack
Larry: That’s always a possibility; but it’s my guess that they are likely to go on for a lifetime. Who knows. But it could be by the end of six weeks I have lot more control over the screams by then. thank for your input Larry.
Jack
My aunt died during the week she was the last one left from both my parents sides. She was my Dad’s younger sister and I don’t know exactly what age she was but for sure in the late ’90’s. She used to visit us in the Summer and always was kind and respectful to us. We used to look forward to our aunt’s visits it was almost like ‘civilization’ coming to see the ‘peasants’ (us). Anyway to somehow honor her memory as I am of course not at home as most all of the rest are I thought to post something here I wrote a few years ago as in this ‘story’ she is the one who gave us the money which was typical of her generosity. This is a bit long and sorry if it seems self indulgent to put it on here. Just ignore if you want to of course. It just seemed a bit interesting maybe only to me as even a description of life in late 1950’s or early 1960’s Ireland. It seems like a long time ago now and far away. I think what is the purpose even of writing this…………….maybe to keep something as death sort of washes everything away. The story could be called “Ice Cream” or maybe “I Scream” if we want to be a bit ‘primal’ about it.
“I have a memory of………….two of my Dad’s first cousins were becoming priests and that in those days was a big deal, it reflected well on the families and so on. Anyway there was two of them and the first one Maurice we kids knew he had already been ordained and we didn’t go or anything. I remember there was some kind of vague resentment between my Mom and Dad about it but anyway nothing that overly concerned us.
The next year Brendan the 2nd one was due to be ordained and it was a Sunday afternoon and again there was some conflict about whether we would go or not. What happened and this was totally unusual was my Dad just said f… it he was going and J. my brother who was a year older and me were going with him. And I still don’t know how that worked with the farm, milking the cows and taking the milk to the creamery and so on…………but my Dad got not so much angry as indignant and very frustrated like he had enough of my Mom and her tantrums, this has to do with HIS family, he would not miss the second ordination.
And I remember driving that Sunday evening all the way through the country and it was such a strange feeling something we had NEVER done before and something my brother and I wished for esp to go to some Gaelic Football games. Like a really good feeling on the one hand, just the three of us and me being the ‘baby’ kind of…………but just a good feeling talking to my Dad, me and J figuring out the way with a map we had, all the little towns and everything. And seeing all the farms, all the unknown people, their animals and some of them were saving the hay even though it was Sunday which sort of ‘shocked’ me by how irreligious it was. I’m trying to identify what I felt…………….I mean I did not know any of these people but there seemed a big sadness, how they all had to work very hard (like us I suppose) so was the sadness I felt for them really about us I suppose so. Also along with the good feeling was a very bad one about my Mom…………we sort of ‘escaped’ out of there, just left her at home with the younger kids and everything for her to do. My Dad used to ‘cater’ to her a lot when she got mad, this evening – no – he didn’t just took off. So that was in the back of our minds but nobody talked about it.
I don’t remember ‘arriving’ or anything but we were put up in a really nice Hotel. Again I can’t remember much but I DO remember in the morning J and myself came down from our room to my Dad’s room. And there was something about that situation that was so lovely, so relaxed, like living like human beings for a change. No rushing to get jobs finished on time, just a lovely morning in a Hotel, my Dad in his own room, and him getting ready for the big occasion shaving putting on his tie and I would have to say we were all in love with each other, I mean J my Dad and me. I mean this seems significant too because we never went anyplace, we were never in our lives in a Hotel before let along staying in one.
I don’t remember the ordination Mass or anything but what I DO remember was the feast afterwards – a 7 (can you believe it) course dinner. My God me and J were so intimidated but also excited by it all. Someone was telling us how to behave, like there were 3 knifes and forks you always took the outside one first. Also when eating your soup tip the bowl AWAY from you, that’s polite, then ‘specialty’ knives like butter knives all kinds of exotic stuff, really exciting to us and of course we DID like our food too. We had like prawns, soup, the main course, desert, tea or coffee……that’s only 5……..can you imagine 7 courses………..too much.
I remember later two of my Aunt’s were there and they started to give me and James money which I made a very weak ‘act’ of not wanting to take. I distinctly remember getting a ’10 shilling note’ so it was paper money – real money – that would be like equivalent of half a pound but in those days that could buy you quite a bit. J got the same I think and I remember we kind of looked at each other and said we were going to KEEP that money. As kids we were never given any ‘pocket’ money again unlike most of the other kids who were ‘poorer’ than us but they had money for ‘sweets’ and we did not. I remember driving back home we got ‘lost’ and actually that was a bit scary but also exciting. Me and J had a map and were helping our Dad find the main road again………………I remember being lost for quite a bit and I was really surprised to find my sense of direction gone kaput altogether. Up to then it was like I had a compass in my head and felt I could always tell what was North, South, East or West and it was quite a strange feeling to find that ‘sense’ had failed me completely. And me being ‘stubborn’ and stubborn about believing I was ‘right’ well that took longer and kept us lost. Looking back at it now it was like my first experience that a ‘paradigm’ as it is called nowadays can be ‘wrong’ and sometimes when you least expect it or have total confidence that it is ‘right’
We got home but the reason I started to write about this is yesterday I was thinking a bit about the money and what we did with it. J and me had a ‘plan’ we would simply buy ourselves a 6 penny ice cream every Sunday so I’m calculating now that would be good for 20 Sundays or half a year. Not bad. When you went to the ice cream store there was a choice of a 3 penny one or a 6 penny one. The lady in the shop would have this big block of ice cream with marks each representing a 3 penny piece. And that was the common thing for kids but you COULD get a 6 penny piece if you were feeling ‘greedy’ I suppose you could say. Anyway we thought f. it we have the money we were determined to keep it all for ourselves, no sharing so the first Sunday after Mass J and I get in my Dad’s car each with a big fat ice cream and I dunno there was some looks from my Dad or some questions almost but we enjoyed it and paid no attention.
The next Sunday same thing but when we got in the car my Dad says “Jesus you are going to ‘fatten’ on that ice cream” and it was that I was thinking about yesterday Like the money we had gotten in the context of all that togetherness with my Dad, it was very much a memory of that day and here he is now sort of thrashing it, mocking us and also I think a bit resentful we were not giving him some. Which now I can understand actually but at the time it felt horrible, like he had ruined our day and our memory of it. The other thing that stuck me yesterday was how sad that was……………we had NO friends, we had NOTHING, (very connected to the bullying and hatred from the other boys) we decided therefore to keep all the money to ourselves and just gorge on ice cream……………hard to describe how empty we were, like the whole summer before us and all we had to look forward to was this effing ice cream. And now even that got ruined by my Dad’s comment…………after that I don’t remember but I think we gave up the ice cream plan completely”
I became engrossed in reading your recollection, Patrick.
Likewise, Patrick. In my case, my brother and I blew our then astronomical 50 cent money gift from a family friend, presented to us in the presence of my mother, on chocolate ice cream sodas and a movie. Still remember my mother’s shock and disappointment with us, when we admitted we spent it all on ourselves.
Yes John it is interesting. Something going on there and I was thinking now why didn’t we offer or get an ice cream for out Dad. I think the real reason is we felt so drained from ‘giving’ we did not want to give anymore. The little we had or were given we wanted for ourselves
Well thanks Larry it’s nice that someone finds it interesting. You and I have never exactly have got on so well but I do feel quite a bit in common with you. Also in this matter of living and growing up on a farm there is something about that that people who did not have that experience cannot totally understand or even relate to
Patrick, that is such a beautiful and heartfelt story! I did not know that you were such a good writer. These questions might seem irrelevant to the deeper purpose of posting this message, but I will ask them anyway. What are the Gaelic football games? Why is saving hay on Sunday irreligious? And you mentioned that when got the directions all wrong returning home from your trip, that was the first time you realized that you were using an incorrect paradigm. I’m curious what some other times have been, if you know.
That’s nice Renee you say that. I am not sure about being a ‘good writer’ but I will take it.. And no these questions are not irrelevant I actually like that you focus on a bit off topic stuff away from the kind of ‘standard’ primal stuff. Gaelic football is only played in Ireland it is our ‘own’ sport so to speak and it is hard to convey how much it means to the people there even now. It meant more at that time and even more to kids like us. It was and is an ‘amateur’ sport no payment involved for the players and you play for the county you are born in. No ‘transfers’ of players allowed so when your county is playing it is really your county not a bunch of mercenaries from who knows where. See link below for rules etc. Feel free to ask any follow up questions if you have them
About the ‘irreligious’ thing. Well it was a very Catholic country and Sunday of course was like our Sabbath we did not work on Sunday. Mind you there was still plenty of work we did do like milk the cows morning and evening etc etc but we would not really do ‘farm work’ on a Sunday except in extreme emergencies. Like if say it was a really rainy Summer and the only way to save the hay was by working on Sunday I could imagine it might be done. But in our case I had never seen that but while driving that Sunday evening I saw plenty of it being done. And honestly I did find it ‘shocking’ like somehow these people were ignoring some very important religious rules, there was a ‘disrespect’ there that I found troubling but it was kind of balanced out (in my mind) by the fact they seemed to HAVE to work on some level so at the same time I kind of felt sorry for them but also thought maybe they were doing something ‘bad’
About ‘paradigms’ well……………….where do I start? Well the Catholic religion itself you can see how seriously I took it yet at 18 y.o. I ‘abandoned’ it. Too long to go into the details but looking back I think it was a big disturbance psychically and I was floundering for quite a while. As ‘substitute’ I got heavily into ‘philosophy’ I even got a degree in that in College and I ransacked and read a lot of books. A lot of it impressed me but nothing really satisfied me and then I read the “Primal Scream” at 21 and I was an ‘instant convert’ to that. I was at my most ‘devoted’ for 5 years before I managed to make it to LA and I have said this here before probably too many times but the ‘reality’ of PT here I found disappointing for the most part. That was another pretty disturbing ‘paradigm’ shift and was very confusing too in that I retained a ‘belief’ in it but found the ‘practice’ less than convincing. So I never actually ‘abandoned’ it and through a weird set of circumstances found myself back in through this blog. Which I have liked very much as it seems to be the first time I can kind of ‘do’ therapy at my own pace and voice my disagreements and just let it evolve in a more natural and less forced way that I associate with ‘standard primal’. Which is another reason Gretchen’s ‘ban’ or ‘deleting’ I found very hard to take. Anyway it seems to be better now and Renee I do not ignore your questions and I know there are a few from before kind of left hanging there. It’s just hard for me to say sometimes what I am really thinking so I wait until the time is right or my mind is more resolved one way or the other. On Monday I am going to see Gilad Atzmon the Israeli writer and I will ‘report’ on it if it seems appropriate and if I think it will not upset people too much
Gaelic football is what our own code in Australia is derived from. Australian Rules Football is the national football code (most would admit, religion) here in OZ.
Enjoying your posts, Patrick, thanks 🙂
trying to get in touch with my feeling side, after holding it down all week to force myself to go work long hours with minimal reward. this only brings a small twinge. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C2d_X6OhVZQ
another slight twinge of being in a feeling zone but not much. tired of working so hard. tired of this crap, this nothingness at the end of my life. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejtQD3AQsEM#t=373.971107
…that got to me. Lots of love, caring and support there, no having to do it all on its own.
ok more than a twinge. so what.
OK nice crying music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lF8em4uPdCg#t=438.145919. Shirley and Jenny: Two Elephants Reunited After More Than 20 Years. going to group, don’t want to go, feeling low down. never want to go.
Thanks Otto. Your links have helped me loosen the feelings today. I hope group is useful to you.
Erron and Patrick, when you guys refer to football, are you talking about soccer? I’m assuming you are. That’s one of the sports I grew up with in South Africa. I like that game.
Erron, do you know why, of all places, Australia chose the Gaelic model?
Renee,
Aussie rules bears little resemblance to soccer. Soccer is very much a gentleman’s game in comparison. Aussie rules is full body contact, fast moving and occasionally brutal. It uses more of the whole body than other football codes, and a different and probably enlarged skill set with respect to ballhandling etc.
Erron
Patrick, I have another couple of follow-up questions. In your response to my question about paradigms, you said that, ” the ‘reality’ of PT here I found disappointing for the most part”. When I read this, I wondered if there was ever a time when you found the reality of PT to not be disappointing. And when it has been disappointing, I wonder if there were other parts of your life that felt disappointing too. I ask this because, for me, sometimes it is easier to be disappointed with therapy than realize how much of my own life is disappointing and not working out the way I had hoped.
Well yes Renee………….of course. But my ‘disappointment’ in PT had a lot of specifics. First off I suppose it sort of HAD to be a disappointment, what I mean is I had built it up so much in my mind as some amazing thing and all fed by Janov’s writings. I had read all his books and all the ‘journals’ as they were called at that time also. This in my mind was some kind of paradise that could not help crashing into real world disappointment. But there were other aspects too the urgency of survival here the kind of crazy atomized culture of LA.. The mad rush to survive as I felt it and these kind of weird chaotic group therapy sessions……………..just left me cold pretty much. They did not feel ‘safe’ in any sense and then the kind of ‘competition’ just to even be heard at all in post group as it used to be called, why make people ‘compete’ like that?. Anyway this is pretty much water under a bridge now and I don’t want to be repeating myself about all this. I have told Gretchen more than once at least she has made this blog available and I have used it I would say to a good effect for me whatever anyone else may think. I am sure I have been rowdy and obnoxious at times but that’s me and I don’t go for all this nicey nicey all the time. I try to be truthful at all times the best I can and that is my guiding light..
Erron, I have not seen anything like this! It looks like a combination of rugby, American football and soccer.
Patrick, I don’t think you understood my questions. I wasn’t asking you about the specifics of your disappointments with therapy. I know you have a lot of them. When you say, “well yes Renee……of course”, what do you mean? I’m confused. Also, you missed my other question which is if you ever found the reality of therapy not to be disappointing.
Erron – I know Australian Rules Football is related to Gaelic and probably is ‘derived’ from it. I know some of the big stars in Gaelic actually moved to Australia to play the game there and make money since in Ireland you do not get paid to play. Still watching that clip is I would say very different to Gaelic most all of the stuff in that clip would be ‘illegal’ in Gaelic way too rough/physical and more like Rugby. Also the ball is not round it always seems weird to play a ‘ball game’ with a ball that is not round. This of course includes American Football and Rugby
Renee – Gaelic has been describes as a kind of combination of Rugby and Soccer and that’s a good way to begin to understand it. But it is way less physical in terms of contact than Rugby it is more like Soccer but as Erron mentioned about Australian Rules in Gaelic you use the whole body hands feet everything. Soccer I like very much also but it’s an odd game in that you are not allowed to use the most skillful part of the body – the hands. To me and I am sure I am biased it is the best game you use your whole body, there is more scoring than in Soccer because of the mixture of points and goals it is way less violent than Rugby.
I think it was ‘invented’ around the same time as the English invented Soccer and Rugby around 1850 and it was very much connected to “Irish Nationalism” the Irish wanted a ‘game of their own’ and this was a big kind of national pride and signification. Anyway we loved the game as kids and wished and wished our Dad would take us to some big games which he mostly didn’t. so we listened on the Radio we did not have TV until later. This clip gives a good example of the game and you can see the mixture of goals and points make it to a very well designed game
As I see it; there are several reasons why I feel some found therapy disappointing.
The first of which is they did not read “The Primal Scream” thoroughly enough … giving into some hope that was never stated. That, I see resulting from, having a higher education whereby they had to speed read to get through the amount of books required for graduation.
The second was an expectation that there was some sort of together community; (belonging) that occurred at the institute. Sort of, what they never got from their families in childhood.
The third was feeling that for the money required and the time (six month to a cure) wasn’t realized, and was expensive to boot.
(Continued)
The fourth was the total misunderstanding that the patient had to put in the effort; it was NOT a case of getting therapy being done to the patient.
The fifth was if it didn’t turn out they way one had hoped, then it became a matter of BLAMING the therapy AND a REFUSAL to look inward to oneself. The hallmark of neurosis IMO.
My experience was different to most of these since I had had a “re-living” (Primal) way before I knew about “The Primal Scream” and/or the Primal Therapy. Consequently, therapy was just a natural progression for me.
These are mainly my feelings/notions of why…….
Jack
P.S. The first part was me Jack
Each person will have a unique experience of the therapy because each person is unique with a unique history and their method of coping. The challenge for the therapist is how to help each person uniquely. People come to the therapy with all different kinds of needs and expectations and have to decide whether the therapy is what they want. A particular therapy is not going to be everyone’s cup of tea.
Larry: I agree we each of come to therapy from different needs and each person definitely needs to do therapy their own way.
There were however two very close friends, one that I turned onto this therapy, that were disappointed with the therapy and abandoned it after coming all the way to LA to get it and laying out the money. Something obviously triggered them to want it. I did listen to their reasoning for abandoning, but something didn’t add-up to me at the time.
It’s not that everyone needs the therapy; BUT wanting it in the first place; then FEELING disappointed, I was writing about yesterday. It was, in the case of both my friends; the disappointment was very real and they seemingly never got beyond that point … remaining disappointed. In the case of the person I turned onto the therapy, he remains very disappointed to this very day, I am still in contact with him.
One other point that inspired me to write the comment was Renee asking Patrick to explain more about the disappointment. I feel, though I could well be wrong, that the therapy and therapist are trying to help patients with their feelings and to resolve them. It is the position of failing to resolve the feeling of disappointment that I wanted to get across. Also, trying to look at my own disappointments on other issues … in that respect I was talking to myself.
Jack
What I’m saying Jack is that if some people feel disappointed in the therapy and turn away from it, then maybe their defenses are telling them that is what they need to do, and maybe given their life it is best for them that they do. We who use this therapy are fortunate we have the physiological makeup and life history that enables us.
Larry: I can agree with that, and it’s a major consideration. I would suggest that anyone feeling that disappointed, to discuss just that with the therapist, would be the way to go. Of course that brings up yet another problem, of just being able to discuss it.
Jack
I also liked reading the ice cream story, but would like to hear how you would describe the feeling you were left with, Patrick.
M
Tim, thanks for the interesting comment about the negotiating.
and I appreciate very much what you said about me.
I have also liked your clarity and straightforwardness here, and also you seem to have a sharp mind.
what you said about the negociating made me think about an interesting chapter I read in one of my former courses, social psychology I think, about for instance negociations between two opposite parties, like say Israeli and Palestinians, and how a mediator can be of help.
an interesting point was that it always is important to make some kind of offer, to give something to start with, which can ease up things and make the other party consider what they might be able to do.
an independent negociator can listen to each party without the communication turning immediately into an argument, and look for comon ground.
also interesting was some findings out of game theory, in which parties have to cooperate, to both win something, or gamble and either win more or lose out badly if the other one does not want to cooperate.
there is some kind of game in which you do not know how your fellow prisoner will act, will he blame you, or be silent, and you can do the same, which leads to three different kind of rewards or punishments.
it turns out the best strategy on the long run is to start off with making a positive offer, like cooperate, be silent in this case and not blame the other one, and then, if you get the bad experience the other one did treat you in a bad way by blaming you and making you be punished, reciprocate from then on with the same behavior, adjusting if he behaves well to do the same, and not if he does not.
but starting off with a positive act is important.
there are many pieces of knowledge that fall into place like jigsaw puzzles sometimes, which is why I enjoy the study of psychology.
you seem to have used the contents of that book to look at your life and to grow and learn.
never too late to learn, my mom is going towards 87 now, and we both seem still to change for the better in some ways, coming closer and with more tenderness to each other.
wish you all the best with your family as well.
M
wow Otto, your videos really triggered me once more.
even while not seeing much details of them, my imagination also did the trick, using the sounds and comments.
big fat tears, feels like very good to be able to shed them, as I feel a continuous state of sadness and some anxiety these days, mixed into an otherwise kind of not too bad state..
or well, not really happy in fact, mostly lonely and scared with brief good moments now and then.
M
angry, so angry. was able to speak a few minutes in group only because barry graciously has agreed to ask me to speak in group since i can never get my mouth open. i could have contributed when people were talking about doing a treadmill heart scan. i have had enough of them. 2nd one said a little of my heart’s function was gone. otherwise, never any blockages. i never let them give me the chemically-induced one. the last time i had chest pains, i stayed in the hospital 2 days to monitor me and then do the treadmill. no blockage. the outcome: stopped eating cheetos for breakast. yes angry. what i said: horrible to sit in group and hear about everyone else’s relationship, while mine is practically non-existant. impossible to sit there and hear how people are having or at least had been having in the past year, great sex. i walk around the lake with the dog today, nice crisp spring day, no chance at having a woman, and most likely more disappointment when mine comes back. totally pissed at her, could be old mother feelings, but so so angry, cant see my way through to reality. maybe we saved each other’s life by getting together so long ago, but i wish i had drunk myself to death before that then. these are just a tiny fraction of my gloomy thoughts on this beautiful cool spring day.
she fucking abandoned me to help the kid stay sober in illinois and then ohio. kid was an alcoholic druggie on death’s door in 2004 and she got him into recovery.great. glad she has her mother love. he was in that shape because i abandoned him in 1994. anyway she abandoned me long before that in the past year because i became an exhausted asshole from getting up for work at 2:30am and getting back home at 4:30pm. because she lost her job and because of pets getting sick and dying.i had to make more money. she lost her job in good part from taking care of old old otto the dachshund, who had to be held continually all day. how could i be mad at her for that. well, because i am an angry asshole creep. and don’t forget it. i am the creepiest bitch you will ever see/. anyway, even though i hate going to group, those guys are always very supportive of me.
I probably shouldn’t say because I don’t see the entire picture, I only see your view of it, but from what you say it seems to me that your wife isn’t doing her part in sharing the adult responsibilities in your relationship.
Otto,
as it sounds your tremendous anger contains so much old stuff, I do hope you can get some of it out in group or in a small room or whenever, in car or elsewhere.
hope you don’t mind me saying this, as you just summed up why you are angry at your wife and why the reasons seem not that rational.
wishing you the best, M
had the same gloomy feeling today, made up of sadness, hopelessness and fear, but then a nice long phone conversation with a friend I had not spoken for a long time really lifted my spirits and took a lot of tension away.
just the communicating seems so vital.
M
Tuesday, April 25 was my last day of work, almost two weeks ago. The next day, my first in retirement, I was in a daze. I did nothing all day. I was probably in shock and sad that that meaningful work and workplace and the work colleagues after many decades would no longer be a continual familiar and driving force in my life. I was probably stage struck that now I could do whatever I want with my life within my financial means, or do nothing. I felt concerned that being a shy quiet personality I might go for days or weeks without interacting with a familiar face and might drift toward a dysfunctional, paranoid hermit existence.
The weather finally turned spring-like, sunny and warm, thank goodness. It felt invigorating and liberating to get on my bicycle that I love to ride and head out any time of day, anywhere I wanted, for as long as I wanted. The parks and residential neighbourhoods are strangely deserted when everyone is at work. The streets are quiet. Out and about there was just me and the pre-schoolers and stay-at-home Moms, the dog walkers and joggers. I felt like I was 5 years old again, free all day to do whatever I want or nap whenever I want while everyone else is at school or at work.
I explored the possibility of repairing my broken camera, and abruptly shifted toward window shopping for a replacement. Soon I was agonizingly weighing my financial budget and feverishly researching new camera and lens options, and consulting with my more advanced photography buddy to tap into his expertise and experience, wanting to take advantage of sales that were on until mid-May. There are hundreds if not thousands of different camera makes and models and lens combinations, none of them ideal, all of them strong in some aspects but weak in others, but some being optimal in some way at some peculiar suite of features at some price point the buyer is comfortable with. It is a staggering array of information to research and compare. After about a week of exploring what eventually were blind alleys I arrived at a choice that I felt most happy with that most met my needs at a price I could just bare to endure. The new unit is a pleasure to use. I’m excited to have it. It’s a tool that that gives me joy that helps me get out and engaged with the world and with people. I’m contemplating taking up a friend’s invitation to photograph horse shows. If I could overcome my self-doubt and give that a try, it could become another interesting and social activity.
Last Saturday I participated in a training workshop with the nature society where I learned as a volunteer how to help on a breeding bird survey. I picked out a 100 square kilometer (about 36 square mile) area that I would be responsible for. The survey takes place in June and July. In the meantime I’ve taken up birding again, after a 4 decade hiatus, and have traveled to my assigned area to explore the terrain and become familiar with the several types of bird habitat and birds. It feels invigorating to be able to pursue this interest whenever the weather is good. It feels liberating to be able to head out early with the sunrise when birds are most active, instead of having to go to work. Trying to identify them is absorbing and enlightening, and distracts me from my life problems for a while, just like work did. It is captivating trying to photograph them. It feels like a paradigm shift and privilege to be able to be in nature and witness its rhythms instead of having to be on the tunnel vision work treadmill. It feels stimulating to be part of the birding community, whose outings I intend to participate in.
Last week it was hard to relax. The weather was great. I was getting up a 5 and even 4:30 am to take best advantage of the day. There were many options for what to do. I wanted to do them all. I didn’t want to miss out on anything. I felt frantic. I was having fun, but I wondered also whether I was frantically running from aloneness.
No need to be alone though. This weekend I had many social options lined up. The difficulty was choosing which to follow through on. But on Saturday I was so tired. After breakfast I decided I needed to catch up on some sleep. Two hours later I felt better, but still heavy and tired. I did not feel able to do anything. I had no zip. I stayed home, alone, all day, drained. God, if I felt this way always, my life wouldn’t amount to much. I had no interest in life at all. Some crying in the evening lifted my spirits and gave me some relief.
Then again this morning I had several social options for the day to follow up on, but haven’t pursued any yet. I seemed to need more time to myself, alone. Soon I was crying again. So alone. If Noreen were to visit me from wherever she is, I would feel so overwhelmed with joy to see her again. I would so much want to convey the depth of my gratitude and appreciation for being able to share our lives together when we did. Then I cry good-bye and acceptance that she is long gone and I must face this life alone. I cry the truth of the aloneness that is a defining feature of my life because my parents were unable to be who I needed.
Thank goodness for this therapy. Thank goodness that more of the poison has been drained and I am more able to see how important it is that I take charge of my life, because reality isn’t going to change, only I can.
If anyone is interested, here is some recent music I found that helps me flesh out that ephemeral space where feelings venture and painful insights happen.
Larry: I picked-up on the sentence:- “I felt concerned that being a shy quiet personality I might go for days or weeks without interacting with a familiar face and might drift toward a dysfunctional, paranoid hermit existence”.
It’s my feeling you’ll not finish up a hermit. You’ve done too much therapy to go that route.
Also there seems to be something within this comment of yours that is breaking through and that you may well find the retirement not as bad as you have been anticipating. Your photography, bird watching and bike riding could take on a life of it’s own. Who knows, you might find someone to share you interest in these things.
I wish you the very best Larry … but above all keep blogging here. You are, without doubt, an inspiration to many of us.
Jack
Larry, your contemplation of photographing horse shows reminded me of an interview with Barbara D. Livingston, that I saw yesterday online, in connection with the Kentucky Derby. Barbara may be the most famous racing photographer currently, has certainly won the most of the annual Eclipse awards for it. I have loved her work for years, it’s often stunning. What I did not know before, is that an unsuccessful childhood eye operation left her eyesight quite damaged. She can see only “blobs of color” on the left, and “extremely blurry images” on the right. Her cameras have special viewfinders that help somewhat, but she has no depth perception. E.g., she has to move side-to-side and see what changes in her field of vision, to tell what’s farther away.
Yet she has been an exceptional horse photographer since childhood, she is now 56. It’s incredible to me that she has been able to do that! Of her eyesight, she said she thinks it gives her an advantage, in that she sees everything like a photograph, flat. Her goal is to not only create a photo with technically good composition, but to get something that evokes feeling, she said there is “a world of difference between the two”.
Of her work at the track, Barbara says, “Every day I wake up, I’m happy to be coming here. Every day when I go home, I’m happy that I was here. And every night I go to sleep, then I can’t wait to be back here.” She feels lucky to have that.
On this link, there is a video of the interview with her:
https://www.paulickreport.com/news/people/capturing-moment-eclipse-award-winning-photographer-livingston-featured-cbs-news/
Not anonymous, but Vicki
trip to grocery stores. highlight of my sunday. strange lady in whole foods parking lot walking about aimlessly. thought she was homeless so i asked her if she needed anything. she wanted me to buy her a coffee with cream and a green apple. with her money. said the security guard would not let her in. strange. so i got it and she wandered back off to her apartment or whatever. now bills to pay and other fucking work to do. fun fun fun.
larry. good.
Larry, it does sound like you are taking charge. Happy for you in the delightful explorations in retirement, free time to do what you want and your ability of feeling that makes that time truly free to enjoy.
Otto, glad you went to group. You have much to go through and you are doing it. I’m glad you are getting the support at the group.
I feel a bit selfish asking this, but what is it about the chemical-induced heart scan that is aversive? My brother had that and he said it made him feel crazy. My doctor wants me to have one if the treadmill doesn’t work out.
Have a beautiful rest of your day.
S
P.S. Wanted to say your helping that lady in front of the store made me feel good. You are a good guy, Otto.
margaret, i felt bad later for posting that stuff, having forgotten your vision situation. glad you could figure it out.
wife not the problem. me the problem. unfortunately, that will never get fixed.
wow Larry, so nice to hear you experience so much of your new retirement time already as a privilege, that is great.
you sound very good, and full of plans.
it seems very ok you feel like enjoying your own time right now, way to go, M
p.s. the people I have seen drop out of Primal therapy , not many, can only think of three right now, all shared issues of trust and anger, a difficult combination to build up a good connection with therapist and group of course.
I’ve been busy and unable to come on here.
Margaret, I’m glad you had that call to lift you from the gloomy feeling.
It seems to me Otto that your wife has something to do with why the two of you don’t get along. It’s not all your fault.
Larry, it sounds like you have some good stuff going on as you start retirement. I hope the adjustment goes well.
Patrick, I liked the ice cream story. You can write very well and it had me imagining all the things you described.
About people leaving therapy. It doesn’t work for everyone and I agree the issue of trust and anger probably have a lot to do with whether people do well or not, and that’s related to access to feelings.
Phil
People can take or leave this as they want and it is a bit long. Also here this would be just preaching tot the choir mostly. But what struck me is the things they talk about in England now are very much the same as when I was there in the 1970’s…………I mean in relation to drugging people with mental problems and so on. It’s like nothing has changed but only gotten worse. So I am sure primal people would pretty much agree with this clip but it struck me that Janov’s “Primal Revolution” which was touted at the time and very much believed by me never happened. So it’s like why is it that society is beyond the point of repair or did the ‘Revolution” have fatal flaws of it’s own. My answer would be both things which maybe for now counts as a kind of indirect answer to Renee’s question to me. So no it’s not that it can all be ‘blamed’ on primal but at the same time this ‘revolution’ in terms of having much effect on what is going on might as well have never happened
https://windowsontheworld.net/video_type/psychiatry-mental-illness/
Hi Margaret, I’m also glad that you had the call on the weekend to lift your gloomy feeling. I think the call lifted your friend’s gloomy feeling too!
Patrick, how is what you write an indirect answer to my questions? I don’t get it. I see what you write as avoiding answering my questions. However, yet again, I see that you are possibly sharing something indirectly about yourself when you say that, “society is beyond the point of repair” and the ” ‘revolution’ has fatal flaws of it’s own”. I’m wondering if you have ever felt that you are beyond the point of repair and that you have some fatal flaws. It seems that once again you are focusing on something external (society and revolution) rather than on yourself. Perhaps that is why is it so hard to answer my questions. What do you think?
OK Renee – but I did say/admit it was in ‘indirect’ answer so I am not disputing that. My point (that is if I have one lol) is say my ‘disappointment’ with PT especially when I first encountered it in LA is I believe a 2 sided story (at least) I take your point (Even though you did not say it) that I am ALWAYS ‘dissapointed’ with everything and everybody…………that’s true. I will concede to that. But a big problem I had with PT and actually in many ways still do is this thing of always turning things back on the ‘patient/critic’ whomever with that old trope of ‘what’s the feeling” etc etc. This has been done to death and not to great effect imo. It’s mostly a clever way to dis-empower people and I am fairly ‘allergic’ to it at this point. It’s such a ‘closed loop’ and mostly leads nowhere except round and round in the loop. It might be a therapeutic technique as far as that goes but there is more to life and reality that therapeutic techniques. Now Renee I don’t mean to be ungracious, you have ‘reached out’ to me when most everyone else was ‘condemning’ me and I do appreciate that more than you might imagine. It also to me at least shows your ‘smarts’ to see beyond this kind of mindless agreement societies. At the same time I am having a bit of a hard time with your questions as they do seem to kind of go in that vein of ‘what’s the feeling’ at least a bit. Now maybe I just need a bit more time I need to feel fairly ‘safe’ to even approach stuff like that and so far I have mostly not felt ‘safe’ here at all. So in that way I am not rejecting your questions maybe as and if I feel a bit ‘safer’ I might be able to approach it a bit more
I am the first to agree that things are getting worse. My take (and purely mine) is that the medical profession has somehow missed the boat. What boat exactly I am taking about is the notion that 99.9999% of all our ills have their ‘root start’ in womb-hood and/or early child-hood. The medical profession deals only with the current symptoms and pays little or no attention to ‘root cause’.
The revolution that Arthur Janov and Michael Holden were stating in “Primal Man” was that Primal Theory, was revolutionary in that, for perhaps the very first time in human history, the discovery of “Primal Pain” WAS/IS “the REVOLUTION” … that simple. Slowly; ever so slowly IMO, some in the medical profession are beginning to look into ‘ROOT CAUSE’. The sad part about it is that they are still NOT acknowledging “Primal Pain” nor the work of Arthur Janov. (who the hell is this guy that does not possess an MD) My take on their reasoning is that Janov was not accepting so many paradigms of the medical profession and was NOT going to allow anyone merely reading his books, to practice “Primal Therapy” … even though they were licensed psycho therapist. That. as I see it, was medical doctors did not like the notion to even look into the fact that most of their work and studies were now being SERIOUSLY questioned. In psychological terms, they were in DENIAL. Deep denial IMO.
One major factor about the medical profession was an attempt to suppress pain, without considering why pain (in the majority of cases were seemingly, without reason). What they did accomplish were some pain killing drugs. The ultimate was in extracting the active ingredients of Opium and calling it Heroine. Heroine is the ultimate ‘pain killing’ drug. Voila, they thought; we’ve now created the greatest drug to suppress any number of maladies.
————————————
To be more specific the DRUG phenomenon consist mainly of two types.
The first is the pain killers:- Aspirin, Valium, Ritalin, and best of all Heroine,
The second is the ‘feeling enhancers’ The latter being mainly Cannabis, Peyote and (best of all) Lysergic Acid, LSD.
A third might be the vaccinations and immunizations. Again these drugs are tantamount to “closing the barn door after the horse has bolted”. The immune system would, I contend, not be vulnerable to these diseases if the immune system had not been compromised in womb and/or early child-hood.
I repeat … This comment is purely my take on the argument put forward.
Jack
Actually I would see “vaccinations and immunizations” as an attempt to anticipate and foreclose on the future rather than bolting the door after the horse has left. A quite crazy (unless you count the money making for the people doing it) and ineffective way to anticipate the future but in the process destroy the present and the future of the patient. To me it is a truly crazy and diabolical ‘science’ the the present generation of children are more or less RUINED as a result. I know several of them but the mind boggles at the true extent of the damage. This is another area I feel the “Primal Revolution” has been totally AWOL on. And all this pushing things back on the patients has not helped, if someone (like me) get’s quite outspoken on stuff like this or other stuff it is usually found to be an ‘act out”. This is the kind of narrowness of thinking that has led us nowhere
Patrick, what struck me most in your message to me was you saying that you are ” ALWAYS ‘disappointed’ with everything and everybody”. That is just such a powerful and sad statement. I can relate to that feeling so well. I call it living life in black and white rather than in color. At times, this feeling can make me suicidal. I don’t know if it is like this for you or not. I can also relate to your feeling of not feeling safe to be vulnerable. Of course, you do not need to answer any question that you don’t want to.
I agree with what you say about our experiences in PT being a two-sided story. I also agree with you that, “turning things back on the ‘patient/critic’ whomever with that old trope of ‘what’s the feeling” can be very un-empowering.
It is interesting that you feel that my questions “seem to kind of go in that vein of ‘what’s the feeling’ at least a bit”. That is not something I am thinking about when I write to you. For me, I just see how many of your posts push others away and leave you alienated. I see myself so clearly in this pattern. I also see how this pattern can leave one feeling disappointed in others….. over and over and over again. When I have been stuck like this, I have wished that someone could reach me, not attack back or pull away, and help me to make meaning out what I was doing/recreating. I don’t know about you, but for me, this was the only thing that could help me get unstuck.
I am in no way trying to be provocative with this reply and I acknowledge that I am going against the pledge I made to Phil. However, I found it important to state mine if, for any newbies coming onto this blog for the first time; mainly because I see your take on Primal Therapy as missing the whole point. So I will endeavor to explain what I see as the “POINT’ of Primal Therapy.
– – – – – – – – – – – –
From this comment of yours you state categorically “To me it is a truly crazy and diabolical ‘science’ ” That, is in-and-of-itself, an opinion of YOURS. I am not sure how or why you hold that opinion … in-spite of your various attempts to demonstrate otherwise.
Then you state:-“Primal Revolution has been totally AWOL [on.] And all this pushing things back on the patients has not helped, if someone (like me)” That statement in-and-of itself is NOT PROOF you are correct.
Again you state:- “[I get] quite outspoken on stuff like this or other stuff it is usually found to be an ‘act out’. This is the kind of narrowness of thinking that has led us nowhere”.
ALL psychotherapies acknowledge the “act-out” first coined by Sigmund Freud.
The practice of ALL psycho therapies use this very technique of ‘putting’ if back to the patient … including Behaviorism a la Pavlov/Skinner. They attempt to put ones behavior back to the patient … in the hope that the patient will then endeavor to change it, albeit they sometimes use techniques like nauseating the patient
Janov states quite categorically, non of the techniques (other than Primal Therapy); achieve making any RADICAL change. You are free to disagree with Janov … but I contend you are going against all others on this blog with almost no exception, AND I feel you are not convincing.
Jack.
If Renee can help Patrick and he trusts her, I hope they can work together. Good luck to you two.
I disagree with you, Jack. I think you are trying to be provocative…..to pull Patrick back into a struggle with you. I am requesting that you please return to the pledge you made to Phil.
I believe a couple of days ago Patrick was mocking Jack without provocation…something about ” praise God” so to be fair maybe that advice should apply all the way around. As for agreements ….well G.
One more thing Jack. Your comments that, “ALL psychotherapies acknowledge the “act-out” first coined by Sigmund Freud”, and “The practice of ALL psycho therapies use this very technique of ‘putting’ if back to the patient … including Behaviorism a la Pavlov/Skinner. They attempt to put ones behavior back to the patient … in the hope that the patient will then endeavor to change it” are both untrue. Where did you get this from?
Renee: I am not quite sure you what are actually disagreeing with. It could well be that you think I am being provocative. I did my best to prevent just that … but that is not to say that I don’t comes across that way.
If, on the other hand, you disagree with me about what is Primal Theory/Therapy, I am willing to contest you on that. Why I wanted to make a response was, that for any ‘newbie’ coming on the blog; Patrick’s comments about it being “crazy and diabolical ‘science”; then stating that the process of putting it back to the patient; flies in the face of what Janov is promoting.
This I feel you know … all psycho therapy is about “putting it back” to the patient. Said another way:- getting to what underlies the patients behavior and statements.
What others have found and I also; is Patrick promoting AS FACT many of the things he is/was currently reading then proselytizing on this blog. That seemingly is what many find somewhat disturbing about his, insistence that he’s absolutely right, and the rest of us are mere sheeples to Gretchen and the Primal Institute.
It would help me if you were a little more specific. For example: what did I actually ‘get wrong???’ You then go on to ask “where did you get that from” … my answer:- reading Pavlov and Skinner, reading everything I could lay my hands on, before I came across “The Primal Scream, Reading all that Janov puts out, including his current blog and 36 years doing this therapy, groups and retreats AND lastly buddying extensively.
Meantime, TYIA
Jack
Jack: To be clear when I spoke about “crazy and diabolical science” I was talking about vaccinations NOT primal therapy. It seems you may have misunderstood me there
sylvia, i dont know much about the chemically-induced stress test, beyond that i was scared to have them push a drug into me that would accelerate my heart beyond control. (and i have put many a scary drug in my body on my own) luckily, even though i am fat, i was able to always get the heart rate up on the treadmill, although it was always rough to do that. the techs were always supportive to keep me running. anyway, only i know what a creep i am. or at least i have to keep saying it, because someone told me i was, and i think saying it will help in the end. not run away from it. also i have done horrible careless things in my life that will haunt me to the end, no matter how many tears i cry. anyway, it was somewhat strange for a lady with money needing an apple and a coffee from whole foods and yet the guard wouldn’t let her in. kooky.
Thanks Otto, for the heart scan answer.
If you think saying things to yourself will help in the end, then you probably know what’s best for your therapy.
The lady with money to buy things probably had ‘words’ with the guard or she did something he didn’t like. They do like to throw their weight around.
I visited my uncle in the hospital once and mentioned to the nurse that he was a former cop. She said, yes I can see that, you can always tell when someone is, they like to give orders. I said, yes, you can always tell a cop, but you can’t tell him much.
vicki, that link to the picture of the lady shooting a picture at the track was nice. made me think of horse manure. the smell of horse manure. so earthy. i am glad my nose works in tandem with my eyes. what am i saying here? no idea. the picture of the track made me smell horse manure in my head. so much more elegant than cow manure. i hope you realize i am not making fun of you, i just think about manure sometimes. i love horses. actually i rarely think about manure. but it is a very distinct odor. burros, donkeys and mules…salt of the earth too. cat manure, i wish it had a better smell. their cuddlyness deserves a better dung smell than the one they evolved with. i should stop watching gilbert gottfried comedy, it is affecting me strangely.
No problem, Otto. I, too, like horse manure, but my first love was cow manure, from bi-weekly childhood family visits to my aunt and uncle’s house, right smack next to a huge dairy farm. We only got to go up to the fence and watch the cows, but weren’t all0owed to climb into the pasture or pet them. But ever since, wherever I’ve gone or been, like driving up the Central Valley, and smelling it from the highway, makes me go “Aaahh, cows!” and breathe deep of it.
I forget how it happened, but I once wrote a letter to a dairy farmer in Kansas (I think, not sure anymore), whose family-cow-farm-story I read about in the paper, and told him of my love of the smell. I received a lovely reply, in sync with my feelings about cows, and inviting me to come and visit them, which I was unable to do, but I thanked them.
actually the smell associated with human dung is part of an old feeling of mine. i wont discuss it here but i will try to with barry.
Sounds as though you might want to avoid Poo-Pourri commercials, Otto. I hope you weren’t unlucky enough to catch the ones I posted here a year or two ago?
Regarding that Whole Foods security guard, I would bet the guard already recognized who the apple & coffee lady was based on past complaints from management and customers (possibly from previous panhandling or harassment incidents). This is the most likely explanation why the guard wouldn’t let her in.
Otto:
I wonder if Nathan re-kindled his interest in his frozen yogurt shop. This video I posted a long while back might be relevant for you:
Renee, there you go, pulling Patrick back into the struggle(!)
IMO, a ban is a ban.. I’m certainly not advocating that feelings shown here should be ‘nice-nicey ‘ (or what ever the phrase bandied about here is), but it is not appropriate or acceptable for the bad/insults towards people. We’re already back from ‘ice cream’ to vaccinations – Rome was not built in a day, or a month.
Jo – so what exactly is so bad about mentioning ‘vaccinations’? I truly believe it is probably THE major vehicle by which children’s lives are being ruined (even more than circumcisions). Aren’t we all supposed to be concerned with what is being done to children not only our own so called “Pain”. Or is it off side to go outside that very limited way of thinking and operating.
It is interesting to me at least that Janov in his writings very much ignores these real threats to any chance of health and concentrates on more vague things like oxygen deprivation at birth. Not to say that that might not be a problem but the other 2 things I mention of course are going to upset a lot of people and draw a lot of ire upon him. (To be fair I would not welcome the combined power of the Jewish lobby and the Pharma lobby against me but he is SUPPOSED to be a ‘revolutionary’) For all his ‘revolutionary’ posturing he was never much of one. If anything he and his ‘movement’ has always been very ‘conservative’ (fitting in to the system) not to mention very money oriented. He was always a ersatz revolutionary which kind of brings me back to the point of whatever happen to the “Primal Revolution”……………from anything one can see in the ‘real’ world it mostly never happened either in the political/medical realm or even in the personal one based on all I have seen.
And Jo what business is it of yours to enforce this so called ‘ban’. Gretchen seems to have moved off of it. Or are things still not dead enough for you? Would you rather be exchanging x’s and o’s with Leslie? To be clear that’s find by me you do what you do which I have no problem with I only ask the same in return.
What the fuck Patrick? Why are going back to your comfort zone of insulting people? Still stuck and still alienating yourself, I see.
Hold on a minute………………I don’t get how the ‘virtuous’ ones are usually the ones calling for ‘bans’. I am fine and let them talk about whatever they want I do not interfere but you have these busybodies oh talk about this but not about that, that this way and not that way. And the PI is much like that a bunch of controlled freaks. Correct speech and incorrect speech. That’s how I got into so much trouble with Gretchen certain things she did not want mentioned or talked about and very ironically I was claiming that this subject was ‘sacred’ and a bogus modern religion………………..and to my way of thinking Gretchen PROVED my case by ‘banning’ it. Talk about a bogus modern religion
it did not feel to me as if Renee pulled Patrick back onto the blog.
Patrick has been more or less quiet on and off and several of us have reacted to him or not at some point.
Renee’s responses and questions were interesting and intelligent imo and they got some response from him that at least made some sense .
as Patrick will most probably keep showing up in any case, I prefer the conversation being kind of more meaningful as so far it has been with Renee, even while some questions still have not been answered.
i have enjoyed reading all of your comments Renee.
and I do agree both Patrick and Jack have done some provocating to each other, luckily in comparison to earlier times to a much lesser degree.
what with the joined session?
M
Oh god, Patrick, another blow-up. You’ve gone from insulting Jo and Janov to insulting the PI and primal therapy. Still back in your comfort zone of lashing out at others. Still stuck. Still alienating yourself. What’s going on?
Thanks, Margaret, I appreciate your feedback. And I also prefer comments that make sense! 🙂
Hi Everyone: I have been having these mini convulsions with mini screams, (just one or two seconds); for the last three night. They’re not a problem, except they go on for longer than I would like.
After about an hour I would like them to stop then go to sleep; though not feeling that tired of late, so no need to nap during the day.
I do scream under my dovet and into the pillows, but apparently my nephew’s wife hears them, even with two doors between my bedroom and their’s, but seemingly it is not problem for them. She has very good hearing, it would seem. That’s a relief.
The good side to all this is my appetite has improve enormously and there are times I feel like a snack between meals. Peanut butter and jelly sandwich, two slices of bread or, some other snack, and according to my nephew and his wife I am looking more healthy and filling out a bit.
I do, on the doctors recommendation, drink 4 glasses of water per day. That also seems to help.
So that’sit for now.
Jack
Jack, it seems like you are saying that you read a lot until the Primal Scream and after that you have only read Janov’s books. Is that right? If so, you would not know that the whole field has grown exponentially since 1970 and Janov’s theories. There are now hundreds and hundreds of therapies. Wikipedia lists around 160 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_psychotherapies). If you click on these therapies you will see that some ‘put it back’ to the patient and work towards “getting to what underlies the patients behavior and statements”, but many don’t. Examples of therapies that don’t include Sensorimotor, Narrative, and EMDR. And, of course, the many contemporary forms of psychoanalysis that don’t place the focus on the patient, but rather on the ways both the therapist and patient are continually affecting the other in many subtle and not so subtle ways (called intersubjectivity). Which totally shifts the power relations. Quite interesting stuff.
Message to your nephew’s wife: I am eagerly awaiting an email from you.
Maybe, as a group, conventional psychoanalysts recognized the terrifying childhood material that lurks within Primal and dreamt up an exponentially greater number of psychotherapies in a flurry of defensive activity to blot out the pain discovered in 1968-70?
Renee: When I said “I read a lot”, I should have added “psychology books” that I could lay my hands on.
Since I had a re-living experience way before I knew anything and even before Janov’s encounter with Danny Wilson.
I read “The Primal Scream” in 1971, maybe 72. After reading it I re-read again immediately, (from cover to cover); just to make sure I had read it correctly the on the first reading
What it did for me was make clear exactly what had taken place in the London clinic where I had that initial re-living. (Primal, if you like) I re-lived a moment at 2 years of age where I was screaming; “I’m dying … I’m dying”
At 2 years of age; my experience; existence was nothing like anything I had ever encountered. afterwards … as an older child, youth or, adulthood.
I sure was dying and, but for my mother returning when she did, I am certain I would have been a crib (cot) death.
After reading “The Primal Scream” I never felt to look at any further developments in psychology. My reason was that nothing would EVER be better. The important point about Primal Theory/Therapy is that it make such a HUGE PARADIGM SHIFT from anything that had been discussed in any books on psychology AND that unless anyone after writing about psychology WITHOUT taking Primal Theory into VERY CONSIDERABLE CONSIDERATION … was remiss and off base.
However, that is me and my reasons and feelings. I repeat … “it was the greatest discover of all time and no other discovery will, IMO, succeeded it”. Any psychological practice that does NOT place the emphasis on the patient (and not ideas and theories by psychologist is, IMO, in denial, off base, and remiss, for not taking Primal Theory into VERY CONSIDERABLE CONSIDERATION.
The psychological problem for anyone getting a masters degree in the subject, IS by nature (by definition) Hoping the license obtained, giving them a lucrative living. Applying ideas, theories, and notions and IGNORING those feelings and sensation of womb-hood and early childhood ‘TOTALLY MISSES THE BOAT’.
Anyone going into that early stuff KNOWS, WITHOUT QUESTION, that real health can only be achieved by going there.
Hope Renee, you are not offended by this reply to you since, I understand that you are practicing psycho therapy in Canada. My question to you that should only require a “yes” or “no” answer is:- Have you ever had a re-living (Primal) event in your life???????
Jack
Renee – have you ever had what most people would call probably a ‘psychotic break’? Because if you didn’t I question your ability EVER to do therapy lol. So I suggest you by hook or crook have one and then you will KNOW then you will ‘get it’ and then you can join the ranks of the enlightened. Mind you what I have seen from some of the “chosen ones” who have had this peak expedience they seem to spend the rest of their lives trying to have this experience AGAIN. But that’s for the truly enlightened the cream of the crop you might say you can defer on that for a while but as a kind of primer 101 go about having one of those and then you MIGHT be able to do therapy.
P, indulge me here, not making fun of you, but this tickled my funny bone “more vague things like oxygen deprivation at birth. Not to say that that might not be a problem”. !NOT TO SAY THAT NO OXYGEN WOULD BE A PROBLEM/ HA! really, i am not making fun of you, just a bit funny. i realize a lot of us primal people are hyper-sensitive to criticism, so sorry if it offends. anyway, wish my mom had been vaccinated for polio.
Not a problem Otto………..of course I am not saying not having oxygen at birth is not a problem but I know Janov in his later writings puts a big emphasis on it. I don’t read him so carefully anymore but I am not sure how or why this is such a big problem. Is it due to cutting the chord too soon if so I don’t see him simply saying that. If that was the problem which in fact I believe it is yet he does not seem to say so clearly. Or maybe he does but I have not seen it simply stated. The other things I mention circumcision and vaccinations it seems to me he is mostly silent on. I feel especially vaccinations of children so young and such an amount of them is total atrocity and I have no doubt it is really destroying a whole generation of children. It is disappointing to me how AWOL he and the whole primal world is on this but sadly something I see a lot from them…………..super sensitive to the own “Pain” but it seems not much left over for the rest of the world
I am sorry if your mother had a prblem with ‘polio’ The myth of curing polio by vaccine is another of those “Foundation Myths” which allow an amount of incredibly ‘bad behavior’ it seems forever afterwards Just like that other foundation myth I can’t mention for fear of banning it’s so sacred and ‘true’ it cannot be talked about so I won’t
Dr. Janov has no less than statements in ten articles about anoxia at birth and perinatal hypoxia. The effects range from mental retardation and epilepsy to later behavioral problems and diseases. All backed by independent science. You can go to the primal center page and enter anoxia in the google search and find the articles about this in the posts.
Vicki, I saw the fellow on 60 minutes the other night and how he proved the murders with the Nazi’s own ledgers of their accounts. He was so brave and young to do that. He still acts young. Loved that story.
Glad the French elections made the right choice in Macron.
Yay for horse poop at parades; a scent of life.
S
Sylvia – I was and am not disputing the effects of ‘anoxia’ which presumably means lack of oxygen at birth. I was more wondering ‘why’ what is the mechanism that might be causing this. If it something primarily caused by cutting the cord too soon why not just explain that. As I say maybe he does I just haven’t see it. Always better to prevent damage rather than trying to get over it with so called ‘re-living’
guru, funny! pootastic.
Sorry, though, I just can’t possibly relate to enjoying the smell of poop (as per Vicki & Otto’s postings). I much prefer the pungent & sweetly relaxing scents my small wild patch of spearmint & lily-of-the-valley plants give out.
Poop always represented to me the very worst that humans and animals have to offer. Unfortunately, it’s also completely ubiquitous. Far better for me to spend my short life seeking out some of the delicate, exotic, and scarce natural plant fragrances that Mother Nature has to offer, instead.
Running away from your essential animal nature as always, Guru:-) But I take your point about the finer things in life; it doesn’t do to do well on either exclusively. Except when you are shunning one side of yourself as a defence.
Well this is an interesting idea, Erron. Enjoying the smell of shit is a sign being in touch with our animal nature? OK, since Gretchen is purportedly more in tune with her animal nature than most of us, let’s ask her?
Gretchen? Do you like to smell shit a lot? Is it an enjoyable pastime for you?
A friend on FaceBook posted this outstanding and wonderful CBS “60 minutes” interview with Ben Ferencz, 97 years old, and the last Nuremberg prosecutor still alive. He spearheaded the prosecution of numerous Nazi officers who murdered over a million people outside of the concentration camps, as proven by their own Nazi government reports at the time. Margaret, I know you can’t see the video, but you would much enjoy the audio, if you can play it. Ferencz is a delight.
http://www.cbsnews.com/videos/the-nuremberg-prosecutor/
Vicki: I’m sure others might enjoy & want to see this interview, but I would find it an incredibly discouraging reminder of the ultra-limited information & costly psychological blindness I was contending with as a youngster. I’ll respectfully pass without further comment at this time.
It’s interesting now the focus changes a bit to ‘outside the concentration camps’……….that’s I believe to anyone paying serious attention that ‘story’ has essentially collapsed. No human gas chambers, no documents showing any kind of ‘death’ plans no nothing. So shift the attention to the war itself esp in Russia this is harder to refute but I will start to check into it and the little I know already this is a twisted story. 60 mins is pretty much ‘fake news’ esp when it comes to stuff like this. Have you read the article I put on showing pretty much all ‘admissions’ by the Germans was based on torture specifically testicle crushing. Nice!
just a nice anonymous quote I read in a delightful book of personal cat stories , named ‘meows’, by Veronique Puts, but probably only in Flemish, though it deserves translation.
but the quote is more or less
heaven would not truly heaven be ,
if my cats would not be there to welcome me
of course cats can be replaced by pets..
M…
claiming the polio vaccine does not work is so beyond ludicrous it gets irritating, which probably is the goal of the remark really.
just check the number of casualties and how they changed since the use of the vaccine, evidence offered by many many independent studies.
recently here in Antwerp there is a test program for the nose drop vaccine which is more suitable for remote parts of the world, but as it has shown 1 in 1000, or a fe 1000, forgot the right number does develop polio after geting the drops, so they are testing it in another form with volunteers who have to remain in a litttle secluded container village for a month.
so in this case there is an openness about the risk of the actual vaccine that does prevent polio in most cases but in some causes it. that is unacceptable of course, therefor the new research and testing.
it is a terribe disease and there being good vaccines against it can only be approved of.
which does not mean all kind of vaccines and the overvaccinating is necessarily a good thing, as Renee so eloquently said, this world is not a black and white one.
vicki, thanks for the link, will see if I can find the time, right now sitting in some of the first spring sun and laptop already needs to go to a cooler space, but not me, smiley
M
Patrick, I guess your your last message to me was another insult, this time aimed at Jack. Still stuck……still alienating yourself.
In his writings Janov does briefly talk about circumcision trauma. Maybe not extensively because few patients relive that one. He doesn’t mention vaccination, that I am aware of, because that doesn’t come up as a trauma to be dealt with. He mostly doesn’t write about theoretical traumas, he writes about ones that people have encountered through therapy. About the “primal revolution”, I think it’s our personal revolutions which should take precedence.. Apparently society isn’t prepared to accept the full ramifications of primal therapy and give it credence, but to me that has nothing to do with it’s success or effectiveness. I can take some satisfaction that I found out about it and receive the benefits when others were blind.
Phil
Phil: I noticed you used the word “blind” not long after I used the phrase “costly psychological blindness” myself. No problem here, but as an incidental I do want to draw a firm distinction that the psychological blindness I was referring to has zero to do with Janov’s ideas. That is all, really.
But Phil if he limits himself to ‘what comes up in therapy’ isn’t that a kind of very limited way of looking at things. Does he outsource his brain to only what ‘comes up in therapy’ If he really does that he is a true ‘limited hangout’. Which I suspect he is. On the matter of circumcision he could potentially have made a difference especially is he could somehow defuse and defang the aggression exhibited by his tribe but if he is waiting only on what ‘comes up in therapy’ that’s weak indeed. He has/had a duty to use his brain not limit himself to constantly admiring and peering at his own ‘discovery’
Patrick,
I think Janov has found that birth trauma has a lot of mental health consequences. You could look up and see that there are multiple causes of hypoxia during birth and that the condition can have very serious physical consequences. Proof is important and there’s no proof for a lot of the things you say about circumcision. Those are just your wild speculations and craziness, I would say.
I guess that Janov hasn’t found circumcision to be one of the very critical traumas occurring among many of his patients as compared to birth trauma, sexual abuse, being sent to boarding school, or being adopted, for example.
I have to add that a problem with Janov has been his many speculations in the past, for example, that primal pain causes cancer. His speculations do have some value, I think, because he’s well informed but there’s no proof for primal pain causing cancer whatsoever,, and those are the type things that have been probably damaging to primal’s acceptance. He also speculates about primal pain being the cause of many other conditions without proof, at least not the conventional kind. All I ever wanted was to feel better and it works for me in that regard, and that’s what’s important to me.
Phil,
the good news is all kinds of true findings sooner or later come together.
in my actual course of health psychology, by Sarafino, there are several chapters about stress and its psychological, social , neurological end other physiological effects.
it highly affects blood pressure and the release of neurotransmitters stimulating norepinephrine and epinephrine to be released in the bloodstream, and several corticosteroids from which cortisol is the main one indicating there is not only stress as in excitement or challenge, but distress as well.
prolonged periods of stress, or strain, are proven to affect health in several ways, a general way by negatively affecting the immune system, and otherwise increasing the risk for cardiovascular problems, stroke, ulcers and infections of the digestive system, asthma and by the poor immune system also the risk for cancer.
there are more and more scientifically correct studies about this, so there seems to be a growing opportunity to gather converging evidence to link all of this with the primal strain of unfelt feelings on the system and the release of the strain by processing old feelings.
there is also evidence in the regular psychological field that simple disclosure about stressful events has an immediate and also longer term effect on stress levels, which can be easily measured by for example the cortisol levels.
so a revolution seems to occur gradually, if enough dedicated people keep working on things and sharing their findings.
even Arthur Janov’s findings did not emerge out of the blue but have a solid history in former discoveries.
and in my perception the approach of the Primal Institute has already taken a slightly different road, towards the same goal, but with what seems like a more organic technique of letting each patient find his or her own particular way and offering assistance instead of trying to control the whole process.
I feel sure there is a lot more to discover and improve.
and so much experience that hopefully some day will be condensed into publications.
M
Margaret,
There’s probably not enough proof yet that cancer researchers are really going focus on that. First of all the idea of primal pain needs a whole lot more evidence behind it to present to the scientific community. By the way, my first therapist got cancer, and she was no doubt advanced in her therapy process. With many conditions risk factors can be identified which is different than ultimate causes. Primal pain might be just one of many risk factor for certain conditions, for example.
Margaret,
I guess I shouldn’t say that because there is some linking of cancer also by the adverse childhood experiences studies: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/27940981
The next step would be to show that therapy would lessen the risk of cancer and other conditions. I think there’s also animal studies showing stress causing cancer. Rats having to live on a very slippery island so that when they fall asleep fall into water.
Those rats had very high rates of cancer. In Art Janov’s later books he has been much more careful to qualify his statements. I never had a problem with his writings seeing which things were more speculative than others. The important thing being the accuracy of the overall message.
Phil: I feel strongly that seeking “proof” is not necessarily that effective for us humans. You seemed, in this post of your to be asking Janov to PROVE his hypothesis. I feel he is deliberately keeping away from a lot of that.
As I see him, he proposed a theory then used ‘evidence’ from various patients to merely show there was ‘some’ evidence. Had he stated “proof” he might have been asked to SHOW THAT PROOF. That’s my feeling why he kept away for the word.
I personally would prefer to use that word only for geometric theorems. My reasoning is there is plenty of evidence to demonstrate that proof in the past, turned out NOT to be proof at all. The best example I can come up with right now is:- in courts of law when it is deemed that a defendant is “PROVEN GUILTY” only later to discover that the defendant turned out to be ‘innocent’
However, I concede to the fact that I am very obtuse in my thinking. The main element of that is: ‘my money’ thing. Which if it were to happen would bring about such a radical change to the way we humans think and behave. One other influence upon me was Benjamin Lee Whorf with his notion;- we think in language. To me, language, in spite of dictionaries, is very ambiguous.
Jack
Jack,
I’m talking about proof needed to satisfy scientists, doctors, and mental health care professionals. That kind of proof is carefully designed studies with findings published in journals. Maybe Art Janov is a better therapist and thinker than a scientist. It also is clearly a very difficult task to prove something like primal therapy and theory with a lot of time, money, and effort needed. I guess what I am saying is that he probably should have taken more care about his statements and claims in his early writings. Denigrating other forms of psychotherapy, even if correct, may not have been helpful either as far as getting other people on board with his ideas.
Phil
Phil: it is always easy to critique in hindsight. I don’t think Janov was in anyway anticipating what might happen as a result of his findings. That, I feel would have taken far too much work, when, I feel, he was more intent to just ‘put out’ what he had witnessed.
To add to my previous comment. On the matter of even the medical profession and all their studies … to designated it all as “proof” is something I feel they should take ‘pause’ over. It won’t be the first time that modern studies and so called “proof” are seen in the future to not be that correct.
I contend, we should be real careful, when stating anything as proof or fact, something merely studied. Almost all studies are just statistical evidence.
Jack
Jack,
It’s hindsight but I think it’s reasonable to expect some proof when making claims and forming a hypothesis, or the alternative would be to be more modest and tentative.
A hypothesis isn’t actually that useful without backing evidence of some kind.
Many things are strongly proven like vaccines and antibiotics. Because it’s known how they work, in that case it’s not just statistical evidence.
Cognitive behavior therapy is “evidence based” because of large scale outcome studies. Primal didn’t achieve a kind of critical mass so that those type studies could be done.
It could be that the effort was put into proving the biological basis for primal without also doing the outcome studies which might have been even more important. Just some thoughts.
Phil
Phil I get the feeling we are ‘just-nit-picking’ one another.
I disagree that “I think it’s reasonable to expect some proof when making claims and forming a hypothesis, “.
If that were the case I would suggest that Copernicus and perhaps Galileo didn’t have any form of proof … just a hypothesis. I disagree with “A hypothesis isn’t actually that useful without backing evidence of some kind”. All that is required after a hypothesis is:- CONSIDERATION … IMO.
To and for me;- “Proof” is elusive and questionable … unless, unless using ‘Geometric Proof’. It is just here, I feel we part company.
I grant that Primal didn’t get that critical mass of approval. That isn’t to say that in the future it will remain so.
Because of basic psychology and the very nature of neurosis I don’t see biology or any other ‘ology’, bringing the primal concept, to a mass recognition. In my view (to yet again, to press my point) the abolition of that one factor that inhibits us humans from our real nature offers the only possibility for a mass recognition. Mainly due, as I see it, to us humans for the most part not suffering child-hood and womb-hood trauma … and hence, not becoming neurotic in the first place..
Jack
Jack,
There’s different levels of proof. It seems that Copernicus formed his hypothesis from observations of the sky with his naked eyes but Galileo had the use of telescopes. Janov has observations and testimonies of patients and many forms of indirect evidence to back him up, as well as his own experience with his personal primal healing. He didn’t come up with his theory out of thin air. Some of his claims do have little backing them up however, as I have already mentioned, like what he says about cancer
(but now he makes it clear that is speculation).
I have seen where you seem to think primal is the cure for just about everything that ails us. The problem with that type of claim is that people can hear that and disregard the solid part of what you have to say..
Science advances by accumulating evidence through experiments and observation but psychological theories are especially difficult to prove; it isn’t quite a science.
Phil
Phil: Just by merely suggesting that Copernicus then Galileo used different levels doesn’t imply anything; especially with regards to “PROOF”.
I quote another line from your last comment:- “I have seen where you seem to think primal is the cure for just about everything that ails us. ”
I would suggest you re-read my blog article on “Cure of Neurosis” I thought I was specific that the cure was:- ‘NEUROSIS’; NOT a cure of all out that ails us. I don’t and never did feel, think, opine Primal therapy was a cure of all our ills (that ails us). Of course, a lot depends on just what is meant by ‘cure’.
What I have spent a great deal of my thinking and contemplating, both through my therapy and my insights (for what that is worth) is:- “what would it take to PREVENT the ills and neurosis”.
If the cure of all our ills was possible then I feel Arthur Janov would be “cured of all that ails him” I don’t believe even Arthur Janov believes that.
Jack
Patrick, you have said that you do not feel safe on this blog to answer some of my questions or be more genuine, largely due to Jack, yet it seems that you keep trying to set up situations where you will continue to feel unsafe, by provoking Jack and others to react negatively to you. Are you noticing this too?
Ok Renee you are pretty much correct. But it was Jack made his ‘pledge’ not to comment on me (having compulsively and relentlessly done it for over 5 years) I did not make a ‘;pledge’ one way or the other. But you are correct it was late at night and I still believe while minimizing unnecessary conflict to say what occurs to me. Jack had a pretty strong go at me yesterday not to say it’s a tit for that but anyway you are correct,………..
Jack: Firstly, the answer to you last question to me is yes. Secondly, you ask if I am offended by you reply. I am not offended, just confused. I was letting you know that an assertion you were making about “all” therapies was incorrect. That’s all. I don’t understand why you needed to respond my assertion with telling me how much Primal has helped you and how it you feel it is the only valid therapy…..both of which I know and have no problem with.
Renee: Thanks for responding, especially to the last question. I see you now somewhat differently, in so far that I now see you are devoted to the Primal concept. I can see the confusion I portrayed and it made sense to me you were merely refuting some thing I had said earlier.
The reason I went into my story is that I wasn’t sure if you on the blog when I wrote about it in the past … a few time.
However, since it is public forum I often in responding to someone; actually making a general statement about myself. So!!! hope that answers it for you.
Jack
Phil, I completely agree with what you say.
so many factors play a role, and PT is certainly not the solution for everything.
I wanted merely to signal there seems to be a growing awareness both in the medical and psychological field that stress is really a risk factor, increasing significantly , together with other factors of course, the risk for a number of diseases.
it is already proven it affects the immune system, and therefor latent cancer cells in some cases will start growing , or infections have more of a chance etc.
and apart from other sources of stress, which all have their influence , one of the main factors in our inner primal life and therapy is the tension we become aware of and in the best option get rid of, thus reducing continuous source of basic stress.
that link has not been generally made yet, but in non primal ways it has, when stress in general is already considered a risk factor for people’s health.
it should make it easier to convey the primal theory and practical effects of dealing with long term psychological sources of our stress, which undeniably affect our physical well being and not to forget our social life as well.
a new area is psychoneuro-immunology , which gathers all the data, including psychological and social sources of stress, their neurological effects, and their effects on the immune system.
it should not be that hard theoretically to gather data from shifting cortisol levels in the saliva or blood when people work up to and process a feeling, and compare it to former and later base line levels.
that would provide scientific data if compared with a proper control group.
mmm, keep this silent, my idea, haha, wish I had the means to organize such a research program.
only to introduce some scientifically acceptable data about the positive effects of primalling into the field, as I do not need to be convinced as my own experience is largely enough to know the benefits already.
but as you say, it is one factor of the many making people ill, there is more than old feelings in this world, despite old feelings forming a large part of the problems we humans cause..
M
Margaret,
I agree with all this and it would be great to have some better studies verifying the positive effects of primal. Also, some studies showing which forms of primal therapy work better, and for which patients.
As I had mentioned to you, last weekend I attended a local primal retreat for a day and a half. I don’t like some of the things they do but it was still a good gathering of feeling oriented people and I got a benefit from it.
Tim, Well people are not perfect and I’m guessing every parent has things they wish they handled differently. I’m thinking that your kids are probably very much aware that there are things you feel badly about. That has to be very meaningful to them. I can assure you that many of the parents I have known do not show the remorse you have touched on but instead respond defensively or appear to be completely unaware of the feelings of their children . I can’t help but think your kids must appreciate your lack of defensiveness. As for the drinking… I’m glad to hear that is under control . It could have turned out differently and you were wise to get on top of it as early as you did. Thanks for your response! Gretch
Patrick, No actually I have not at all changed my mind about the ban. I really do feel you should stay off the blog for a couple of months and then speak to me about coming back. I have not acted on that immediately for a couple of reasons. My take on your time on the blog is this….pretty much everyone here has reached out to you. You have been asked ( as Renee has done) about your history and how it connects to what is going on with you now. You have also at times been ignored and you have been engaged in factual discussions in connection with your views. Despite all that we end up in exactly the same place. Partly this is because while the blog might be therapeutic it is not therapy. As an aside I think it’s interesting that you have such disdain for ” therapy” type questions while on a Primal website. I have said nothing much recently because I wanted to see if you could contain the rhetoric and rage but though I see you trying I don’t believe you can. To me there is an obsessive quality to it and I don’t think you know how to get out of that loop at this point. That is why I believe it is truly not in your best interest to engage here. Someone told me recently that you had gone on a site using another name and negatively reviewing Arthur’s books even those you have not read. I believe that to be true having read what was written and it does seem to me to be extremely nasty and yes, obsessive. That concerns me. You were not banned because you wanted to discuss Jews. You were banned because of the hateful comments you made and because you have a bad habit of stating things as though you alone are holder of the truth. This problem occurred not once, not twice but hundreds of times over many months. It baffles me that you go on about not being allowed to say your views when you have done just that through countless pages on the blog. I have no idea whether you are aware of this or not but you rarely listen to the response of others nor do you show any interest in the feelings of others. None! Patrick you have an agenda. You are desperately seeking a way to convince others of your views whether it is about Primal or concentration camps. I do feel for you and I see you as a person who has suffered but everyone here has pain. I don’t think we can make excuses for our behavior because we have suffered. Another example of how we don’t simply focus on our histories at the Primal Institute. Now… a couple of facts and I’ll leave it at that. The Primal Revolution.,.. the use of the word Revolution had a different interpretation than the way in which you are using it. Art has discussed the pain of circumcision for as long as I have known him and it is mentioned in several books. It would have made no sense for Art to have discussed Vaccines in the Primal Revolution as the book was written in the late 70’s and the anti vaccine movement barely existed in America before the 90’s. You need to remember this was long before people routinely researched issues online. Lastly, even if Art had no interest in those issues wouldn’t that be up to him? Maybe he wanted a different focus for his personal Revolution than you do. I think you need to come to terms with that. Oh and do me a favor…. kindly drop the snide comments about ” tribes”, its transparent and doesn’t become you. Gretchen
Gretchen said about me ” Someone told me recently that you had gone on a site using another name and negatively reviewing Arthur’s books even those you have not read. I believe that to be true having read what was written and it does seem to me to be extremely nasty and yes, obsessive”
Gretchen the answer is “NO” I did not do any such thing and actually it never even crossed my mind. So fess up WHO told you? This typical of the whispering who brigade with all their lies little and big. Come on WHO let’s get this out on the table. Not that I expect there is even a slight chance of that. Though Gretchen I have found you to be LESS THAN TRUTHFUL many times so who know if this ‘story’ is even true or not. Whatever it does not concern me as I know it has no truth in it. And Gretchen I would remind you (again) if we are talking ‘credibility’ here you are the one with the gap in that regard at least from all I have seen.
You may say now it is a ‘rumor’ or something yet you have to gall to put it in print. I will just regard it as another lie unless you tell the story completely which I sincerly doubt you will. You have no right to put such ‘rumors’ on here..
This ‘rumor’ FEELS like something Inspector Clueless would come up with. He has tried similar stuff in the past. So come on Inspector Clueless was that you? You know who you are or can you drag yourself away from your ‘mini convulsions’?
Gretchen – why don’t you give us a sample of these posting about Janov’s books or point us to the link. I would be curious as to why you ‘believe it to be true” Let’s see what kind of ‘detective’ you hopefully better than Inspector Clueless
I am not absolutely sure just what “rumor” you might be referring to. Nor am I sure that you read Gretchen correctly, BUT I posted a comment some time back after someone … can’t remember who … suggested that perhaps you had been banned, but somehow you were able to get back on the blog.
What I said in my comment is that:- IF you had been banned I was convinced it would be easy enough to get back on the blog by just using another email address.
I am 1) not sure that is correct manner to over come being banned.
2) I was NOT in anyway of accusing you of that … I didn’t know.
3) I have no idea if I was the one Gretchen was referring to.
I would suggest that you be very careful how you interpret comments on the blog and re-read before posting a reply.
Inspector Clueless
A “yes’ or a “no’ would have been nice but I think you are saying ‘no’ you did not spread that rumor. As to why you are not sure what ‘rumor’ I refer to that’s staange as I quoted Grerchen verbatim so there should be no confusion. Here is the ‘rumor’ again as said by Gretchen. You are familiar with ‘quoting back’ so this should not cause you too much trouble. This is Gretchen speaking about me
“Someone told me recently that you had gone on a site using another name and negatively reviewing Arthur’s books even those you have not read. I believe that to be true having read what was written and it does seem to me to be extremely nasty and yes, obsessive”
Got that?………….it is simple enough no need to pile more ‘Cluelessness” on it
Jack, True, it’s prevention of primal pain you have referred to and I agree on that as a worthy goal to achieve. I don’t believe, however, that a status of having no primal pain would necessarily insure a healthy life free of disease. A little different from my earlier point since none of us are likely to achieve complete freedom from pain through therapy. But it’s also unlikely for anyone to make it through childhood free of pain. Either way I don’t see it as the complete key to a healthy life. I’d still want to be vaccinated, have the availability of antibiotics and other aspects of modern medicine to fall back on. Phil
Hi everybody
I totally agree with what Gretchen says about Patrick
It is true that still we do not know very well about the mechanism about cancer, but scientific evidence says that it is related to adverse childhood and its toxic stress and experiences. Primal Pain if you want to call it .
The CDC the Center for Disease Control and Prevention says :” Child abuse and neglect affect children’s health now and later, and costs to our country are significant. Neglect, physical abuse, custodial interference, and sexual abuse are types of child maltreatment that can lead to poor physical and mental health well into adulthood. The physical, psychological, behavioral and economic consequences of child maltreatment are explained below.”
Theses discoveries were made by doctors Felitti and Bob Anda beginning in an obesity clinic in San Diego , they discovered that many patients left the clinic after they had beginning to lose weight ,meaning they did not want to lose it because it was a defense mechanism. Then they began an study about 17.000 adults volunteers. And they came with these conclusions . They include cancer in the consequences.
Child Abuse and Neglect: Consequences https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/childmaltreatment/consequences.html
çmiguel
Miguel, that’s a good link. To make the connection to the benefits of primal therapy, for those unconvinced, those people with the adverse childhood experiences would have to be followed for many years, and compared to a similar group getting no therapy or different forms of therapy. I don’t need all that convincing but that’s what it will take I think. In the US there’s a big disconnect between all the good scientific work going on and government policies, as well as what the average person believes, so that more preventative measures can be put into place.
I have a coworker who very often talks about spanking her kids or beating them up, or her husband coming home and doing it for one reason or another. I have mentioned to her they we never did that with our kids. She says, that she was raised that way and turned out fine. Today this topic came up again because she was showing a video on her phone of a young boy hitting his mother on some live TV show; the parents are going through a divorce.
My coworker made clear that kid would get a severe beating in her house. I printed out for her a list of countries that have banned corporeal punishments like that; over 40 countries. I think it will be a long time coming for the US to join that list.
Phil
Phil: I take your point entirely. I also agree that without neurosis (trauma), there is still the possibility of pain; example. falling and scraping the knees. and also depending on life styles and perhaps some genetics. There is always a chance of maladies and disease. The biggest of all being:- old age and the body organs beginning to deteriorate
The potential to allow the bodies system to heal itself; I feel Primal Therapy does stand a great chance to help … depending how soon one starts therapy in life. However, several diseases and maladies get a great start before we start therapy to the extent that it is beyond repairable.
I feel it is this later area where the greatest investigation in maximum health, might begin. The pharmacological approach risks way too many side effect, that in the end actually help kill us prematurely.
Meantime I have enjoyed our dialog and I feel now we are more or less on the same page. The interesting reflection on our dialog is that it seems to take quite a lot of discussion before we fully see the others persons thinking.
Jack
Jack,
I agree we are on the same wavelength and I have also enjoyed the discussion. You may be right that being pain free from birth would have very many health benefits, to the point that such an individual would hardly ever be sick. Not enough is known about that to make a conclusion one way or the other, but that would certainly be the way to go.
Phil
I have to tell you Gretchen I really don’t like you putting that ‘rumor’ about me trolling some of Janov’s website and putting on negative reviews or whatever. I don’t like it because it has no truth in it and yet you feel ok to just put that out there and then add you ‘believe it to be true’ This if I might say so type behavior of going on website and pretending to be someone else is very characteristic of your ‘tribe’ And you know what I mean no need to play dumb on that one
\Remember a few months ago the ‘wave of anti Semitic’ terror about bomb threat so Jewish Centers and I SPECULATED that it looked and sounded like an ‘inside job’ …………..well guess what it WAS. All the calls came from Israel at which point the controlled media drops the whole story like a hot potato. But the ‘story’ of the ‘anti semitic wave’ remains and was actually use to ban all those ‘truth books’ about you know what.So “NO” Gretchen that kind of behavior is not my style or the style of the culture I was lucky enough to be raised in……………quite unlike your ‘culture’ the way I see it. So no TELL me WHO told you that, gives me a NAME just like I did to refute your ‘stories’ about the meager amount of suicides at the PI. And THAT you lied about also you tried to say I was using something else against you………………..NO I wasn’t just you own words
For something more on these so called ‘bomb threats to Jewish centers’ here is more…………to cut it short it was done by themselves I could pretty much “AS USUAL”
http://birthofanewearth.blogspot.com/
Here is one example…I have an area of interest in male genital mutilation (aka circumcision). So I was curious if Dr. Janov, the founder of Primal Therapy, would have anything to say about it. Unfortunately, the word circumcision is not even mentioned. As the whole book deals with birth and early childhood trauma, I found Janov’s failure to recognize the trauma of male infant circumcision quite surprising, and quite lacking. Actually, I found the book to be quite boring and repetitive.
I’ll briefly contrast Janov’s vision with that of another Jewish psychologist, Dr. Ronald Goldman. Goldman is a leader in the genital integrity movement. His book, “Circumcision: The Hidden Trauma,” is outstanding. It definitively proves that circumcision is not only a physical insult to the non-consenting baby, but, in far too many cases, a lifelong psychological (primal) wound. As Primal Therapy is designed to uncover repressed trauma, it baffles me that the founder of the movement remains in denial of circumcision’s profound harm to both the individual and society. Janov’s book convinced me not to pursue Primal any further.
Well thanks for that Gretchen at least you did that part. It is interesting but again has NOTHING to do with me. But it’s is encouraging to see some others being concerned about this topic. Again thanks at least for being this straight forward.
Another thought occurs to me now. Gretchen said about the above (whomever wrote it)
“and it does seem to me to be extremely nasty and yes, obsessive”
How exactly is that ‘nasty’ or ‘obsessive”? there seems to be way too much ‘name calling’ and the other thing is it seems any criticism is interpreted as being hostile. Kind of brings up the point again about intolerance of ‘free speech”. Is that some kind of “Talmudic” thing where no real free speech or free thinking is allowed. It is all supposed to be done under some cloud of agreement (propaganda)
Patrick, I don’t like it that you keep making snarky anti-Semitic comments, like “characteristic of your ‘tribe’”, and “some kind of “Talmudic” thing”, thrown casually into your arguments with Gretchen — it makes your hatred of Jews palpable. You can’t seem to argue any straightforward points about other issues, without also slinging angry personal attacks like mud. Why should anyone here want to give you the time of day, when you are consistantly mean and inhuman.
by the way the other ” Jewish ” doctor quotes Art in his book and is a former Primal patient
Also I don’t believe I said on Arts website but in any case it was a site that sells books
It’s interesting also you imputing it to me (even though it had nothing to do with me) you say “books I had not even read” Now get a bit real here how could you possible know what books I have read or not. I did not know primal therapists were also mind readers lol It reminds me previously you said you ‘were sure’ I brought up suicides because of your personal history. First off it was NOT true but secondly how can you be ‘sure’ what is on my mind. Like I said is ‘mind reader’ now added to being the ‘greatest therapists in the world” (quote from Janov)
I believe you said you don’t read Art anymore . That doesn’t take much mind reading as far as I know.
No here is my actual quote
” I am not saying not having oxygen at birth is not a problem but I know Janov in his later writings puts a big emphasis on it. I don’t read him so carefully anymore but I am not sure how or why this is such a big problem. Is it due to cutting the chord too soon if so I don’t see him simply saying that. If that was the problem which in fact I believe it is yet he does not seem to say so clearly. Or maybe he does but I have not seen it simply stated.”
If I were Gretchen I would quit while you are behind lol……………..
Did Nicole Brown co-author that Ron Goldman book?
How would someone likely feel if s/he bought one or a few lottery tickets and casually threw them in a sock drawer or file cabinet, only to be totally forgotten until AFTER a 6-12 month prize claim period expires when the ticket buyer discovers it was a multi-million dollar jackpot winner s/he can no longer claim?
$2 billion worth of winning lotto tickets go unclaimed each year, so lost or forgotten million dollar fortunes happen more often than many people suspect.
I would have a hard time recovering from the trauma of knowing I had the ticket and imagining the lost possibilities. Better for me not to know.
There is one confirmed suicide related to this type of circumstance.
Just last year a $63 million California Lotto ticket expired unclaimed. Another one for $51 million in Indiana. Yet another one in Georgia for $77 million…many smaller seven or eight-figure prizes unclaimed.
How could someone wake up each morning and go to work at a standard American job paying $50K per year knowing each and every day that 1,000 years’ worth of wages slipped right through their fingers?
I would hope after the initial upset passed they would have enough of themselves and have valued people around them to go on. It wasn’t earned income anyways–no work involved.
Maybe they should take a memory class for the next time they put a lottery ticket into their drawer.
Lots of people blow their winnings and friends come out of the woodwork and leach-on.
I guess they could go ‘feel’ and cry about it at the PI.
What would you do– though you probably wouldn’t forget, hmm?
I would never, ever forget any tickets I bought. I only buy a few when the jackpots grow to a +EV (positive expected value) in relation to odds of winning. Still an astronomical pipe dream and the lottery is largely a state-sponsored scam on little people, anyway. How could people be so careless to actually win this idiotic pipe dream and let it all slip away, anyway?
The vast majority of income going to the top 1% is unearned. It becomes an exotic game of numbers and symbols for them (with the real-world consequences of having those numbers control people below them who need to “earn” the numbers).
Guru,
I don’t buy lottery tickets as I’m not a gambler and anyway that’s a game with such low odds of winning. Buying them seems a very complicated and time consuming transaction tremendously slowing down convenience store lines. I have received lottery tickets as gifts and even finding out if I won has seemed difficult, and I didn’t follow through. So please don’t give me any lottery tickets unless they are known to be big winners.
Phil
I am surprise that in the USA corporeal punishments are not banned. In Spain it is since Zapatero president. It is also a crime to hit pets. Bull fits are still allowed but many people more and more are against it.
Miguel
Margaret – a while ago you mentioned you found the idea the vaccines did not cure polio crazy. Well check out this link it seems an awful lot of DDT was used in the 1950’s to ‘combat’ polio. So much that it now seems quite likely that polio was CAUSED by DDT spraying. And that the remission in polio very likely has to do with stopping that spraying and nothing at all to do with any so called vaccine. That is what I mean by a “Foundation Myth” if you establish that the door is open to endless kinds of bad behavior. Vaccines cured polio it is believed so bring on more and more vaccines. Disaster!
If we want to make a few more connections about stuff like this how come the Germans have got such a bad name for using Zykon B (the commonest pesticide before DDT came along) on BUGS NOT PEOPLE and yet here DDT was sprayed all the time on people. Oh but they did it for a ‘bad’ reason and we did it for a ‘good’ reason. Not really actually not at all. So much modern ‘history’ is a tissue of lies once you realize that things become a lot clearer.. All this ‘use of gas on people’ is just our own projections. The US have used it so often here at home and of course in Korea and Vietnam etc etc. The Germans did not use gas on people or Jews. They just didn’t .
Forgot the link, here it is
Gretchen, what were hoping for by accusing Patrick of writing bad reviews of Art’s books?
Renee: that’s kind of a ‘meta’ question, I ask why she would dare to ‘accuse’ based on a rumor and then say she believed it to be true. Also does she think I am the ONLY one with a poor view of what Janov represents? I have news for her on that one if that is what she believes.
Patrick, if you had written these bad reviews, would you feel you could acknowledge this, or would you feel you would need to keep it private?
Renee: Since I didn’t write them we are dealing in a hypothetical already………….but I feel confident in saying if Gretchen or anyone ‘accused’ me of it I would feel no need to keep it hidden. In general I don’t make ‘comments’ on any blogs of any kind except this one. I do believe in always adhering to the ‘truth’ in most everything I can if only to keep my life simple. To me ‘lying’ is just not worth it and it would take so much energy to remember…………….somebody once said to me “If you tell the truth, you do not need a ‘good’ memory” I go along with that if I tell the truth I can never be ‘caught out’
To all: I’m still having those convulsion things and screaming bouts most nights, in bed and it’s mostly pre-birth and birth stuff. No problem, but I wished they wouldn’t go on for as long as they do.
Jack
Do you mean you wish the duration of each episode wouldn’t go on for as long as it does. ?
I agree with what you write, Patrick, except in one regard. You say that you adhere to the truth and lying is not worth it. That might be true in some areas of your life. Yet I think there are ways that you are not being truthful with yourself. For example, I think you are lying to yourself by believing that demonizing the Jews is somehow helping you to figure out yourself. I think this lie is worth it to you because you get to avoid dealing with yourself and your difficulties. I think that you are also lying to yourself by believing that it is helpful for you to keep denigrating and insulting Art Janov, Gretchen, PT, and some readers of this blog. By doing this, you also get to avoid dealing with ways you’ve been treated like shit by just passing this shit onto others. As well, you get to stay angry, resentful, disappointed stuck, closed, and alienated. I think it would be more helpful and more truthful to show other sides of yourself that might allow you get something different for yourself. What do you think about these ideas?
Renee, Hoping for? Hoping wasn’t even on my radar. But if I hope for anything in regard to Patrick it’s that he gets the help I believe he needs. I have said this many times . I felt it was time for me to weigh in on Patrick’s return to the blog. I did feel he was trying to control the rhetoric but of course it’s not so simple. In any case as it escalated, despite your effort to help him get in touch with the real issues , I felt once again this is not at all in his best interest. As for accusations… well I have to laugh. I really did not see it as an accusation though I understand that is what he felt. As I discussed his reemergence someone pointed out these reviews. Yes I did believe they were written by Patrick and let’s face it with the exception of a missing Irish emoji well they are pretty much exactly Patrick’s words. So at the time I saw it as a statement of fact and one more reason to ask Patrick to stick to the plan of staying off the blog. But let me make this clear… it doesn’t matter to me at all whether he wrote those or not because with or without those comments there were still many other reasons for why I feel it’s best that he leave. What Vicki wrote pretty much sums up one of the biggest reasons. It is not only the rhetoric but the use of that hate speech as a weapon. You see for all the talk about philosophy or Historical truth the real truth comes out in moments of anger. That is when you use those ” intellectual philosophies” to cause harm. That is when the naked truth is revealed most clearly. But now a question for you Renee. The blog has been around for a few years. I have to assume that at least once or twice you have related to someone else’s pain as you do now with Patrick. But I have never seen you so relentlessly questioning. In fact I’m not sure I can recall you ever asking anyone else more than one or two questions if you even did that. I do understand that the outcast feelings are familiar to you but I wonder if it isn’t something more. I recall once Patrick asking you something on the blog and you responded by saying that he was a trigger for you. You do seem to be triggered. I wonder if Leslie’s advice that you talk about yourself might not be helpful. Gretchen
how can a baby survive being torn from its mom at a very young age and thrown into a situation where the new mom and dad dont care that much? i am having difficulty running this through my mind. survive through fantasy? what particular age of the baby brain allowed me to continue. i built up a bunch of crazy-quilt assortment of pipes ala 3 stooge plumbers to make the intense pain bearable. maybe it is true that babies dont feel pain. maybe they are like animals that have a greater tolerance to pain. i dont know why i am writing this. i am in major pain tonight thinking about dead pets and how i was unable to help save them. how there was a possibility that i could have saved a young woman who crashed into a garage near my house at 4 in the morning a few months back but i was too scared or numb to do anything but call 911.
i guess the sugar in the milk i was given helped to numb me way back then. i probably drank and drajnk and drank all they would give me. shoved a bottle into my mouth. i keep having a sugar craving lately. i just ate a can of pears and peaches and i do feel numb. i am surrounded by ghosts. whatever brilliant thoughts i had went away as i typed this. i survived by going within, into my head.
i think the answer is, that babies can scream and cry without hesitation, for the most part. adults can hold and comfort or suckle them, or throw them against the wall, or shut the door on them. or shove a bottle in their mouth, but their pain initially does come out. they cry enough without any external help and eventually they learn to stop crying. and then the whole story gets changed into a whole other thing. but it is hard to get a baby to stop crying. cant put this into words correctly. whatever. i guess i cried a lot as a baby after mommy went bye bye. help me. help me. just thoughts on this, no feeling about it right now. tired. had enough of this week. nite
i am defending so hard.not listening to music lately. forced myself right now and i get into sorrow almost immediately. what is the next step. i am tired of feeling so horrible. cant erase those poor pets who died out of my head.
Sometimes it’s good to get away from the pain for a while for some down time. Hope you find something you like to do today and will be good to yourself.
S
thanks sylvia.
Otto, you are being very hard on yourself.
i feel confident all your pets were fond of you and you went out of your way to take good care of them.
we cannot protect them from some of the hardships of life and we cannot keep them alive forever.
your sorrow shows how deeply you care about your animals, and you can be entirely sure they knew and know and if necessary forgive you any mistakes you might have made.
but yes, they stay under our skin, which does not need to be a bad thing.
maybe it would help you to think of good moments you had with them, there must have been plenty.
and even having had to finally take them to the vet is an act of love to protect them from too much suffering.
keep cherishing them in your heart like i do with all of mine, quite a number of them so far of many different kinds..
you did offer them a safe place and food and care, and not to forget love.
M
thanks margaret. still i cant get around this stuff for some reason
Gretchen: I don’t like writing on this blog (or any blog for that matter) for many, many reasons. I believe that you already know why I felt I needed to respond to Patrick……. I did not like the way he was treating you, I did not like his hate speech, and I did not believe that the responses he was getting back (counter-attacks, counter-insults, arguing, othering, etc.) were helping in any way. In fact, I believe these responses were provoking Patrick further. I also have not liked seeing your powerlessness in hoping/waiting for Patrick to “stick to the plan of staying off the blog”, as well as the sarcasm, irritation, and anger that often comes from feeling powerless. Besides, I doubt it was ever Patrick’s plan to stay off the blog. If you believe that he needs to not be on the blog for a period of time, that is your right, and besides for Patrick, I don’t think you will get any opposition. But then it is important for you to find a way to follow through on this plan (and not merely delete some of his more inappropriate postings). I am sure there are enough computer savvy people on the blog to help with this, if needed. (I am not computer savvy and even I have ideas!) With regard to his recent behavior you say that, “In any case as it [his rhetoric] escalated, despite your effort to help him get in touch with the real issues, I felt once again this is not at all in his best interest”. I disagree with you. I do not see any escalation. Just the opposite, I see times that Patrick can be reflective and more open, when his process, rather than content, gets responded to. Not all the time but at least some of the time.
Renee,
I have seen that Patrick posts a few more reflective posts here and there and that has been going on the whole time. It’s nothing new. Maybe more so with your communications, but then he reverts to a lot of the very same nasty, hateful stuff he’s been spewing. It seems to me that nothing lasting is likely to be achieved with just some blog postings. It isn’t therapy, it’s just an internet forum where we can all stay connected, be entertained, (get triggered now and then), and maybe enhance our therapy a little. It doesn’t look to me that what Patrick experiences here is something beneficial to him, as he claims. He is not at all on the same wavelength, or with the same program, as the rest of us.
Phil
Renee: I was disappointed to read that you don’t like writing on any blog. I’ve personally found your contributions to be a valuable & welcome addition to this blog. Is there any reason you are particularly reluctant to do so? Is there any way we can we convince you to stick around a while longer?
Over a month or so ago I was sharing about the problem I was having with acid reflux. This was such a severe problem that I couldn’t go even one day without taking some kind of acid suppression or reduction medicine, which in itself is an unhealthy situation. Improper absorption of nutrients results as the stomach is supposed to have acid. Stomach acid also acts to kill possibly pathogenic bacteria, fungi and parasites entering with food. It’s important to have stomach acid.
I’m happy to say that the very low carbohydrate diet I was following made a very positive change, My acid reflux is gone, and now I’ve been able to slowly add carbohydrates back to my diet.
A nice unintended side effect has been I lost about 8 lbs even though that wasn’t a goal. All of this despite the fact that I believe I was already on a very healthy diet low on meat and processed foods, and high in vegetables, fish, some whole grains etc. I hope to move back towards this diet.
I’ve been going through the book “The Microbiome Solution” that Linda here on the blog recommended. It is such an excellent and informative book. my conclusion is that I probably wiped out a lot of the good GI bacteria in my small intestine with antibiotics I took for Lyme disease a few years ago. So the project is to get the proper bacterial balance to return. I have also been taking a probiotic supplement recommended, which no doubt has been helping.
It’s fascinating to learn that so many conditions may be caused by “disbiosis”, which is an alteration of a balanced and healthy bacterial population on and/or in the body. Many different autoimmune conditions, intestinal conditions, other diseases and even obesity and depression are found to be associated with this. The bottom line is it’s better to avoid, if at all possible, excessive use of antibiotics which most practitioners like to so quickly prescribe. But if they are necessary, and they often are, attention may then have to be given to restoring the healthy bacterial flora. It all is making sense to me and I haven’t even finished the book. Thanks Linda, for the great recommendation and lending me the audio book.
Phil
I wish I could explain why, but I’ve almost never had acid reflux. A couple of acidic dry heaving “upchucks” and a couple of small vomiting incidents over the past 30-40 years, but that’s it.
Renee, I’m not sure why you don’t like writing on any blog and I also think you have a lot to offer. I do feel however that you are a person who has walked in on the middle of a conversation. With that has come some assumptions I believe. First, what made you think I was waiting for Patrick to decide to stay off the blog? When I decided to block him I went to WordPress and did just that. At the same time I had been told and I knew already there were ways around that. I could take the hate speech to WordPress and have him blocked from the whole site possibly but I don’t choose to do that. As for deleting messages I believe you missed that conversation as well. Being asked to leave the blog and having hate speech deleted were two separate issues that happened at different points in this process. They were not connected. When I said Patricks behavior had escalated I did not mean since you began asking your questions but rather overall. Indeed it has. I do think your viewpoint is a bit myopic. I think your characterization is a little unfair especially since you have apparently missed so much of what actually happened. I feel I need to say in defense of the group overall that people here were extremely welcoming and patient. Even when the hate speech began the people here continued to try and be helpful. I don’t think there is a single question that you have asked that was not asked by someone on this blog and yes when Patrick answered truthfully it could often go somewhere. But only temporarily. But as the attacks continued there was the inevitable consequence. The question here is not so much why someone here might now shun Patrick but why he wanted to be shunned. There’s much I could say but I will leave it at this. I notice you have alluded to safety or more specifically Patrick possibly feeling unsafe. I see it quite differently. I would guess that Patrick is not discussing these viewpoints elsewhere. I believe he has said as much. I think he does it here because he has felt ” safe ” to do so. There are a number of reasons why that might be the case . I’ll just leave it at that. Gretchen
4 in the morning. been awake 3 hours now, cant get back to sleep. cried a lot yesterday and now i am haunted by all the horrible things i have done in my life. to others, man and beast. just haunted by this stuff, i guess i felt bad at the time for being horrible to others, and suppressed it, and this stuff just keeps coming up and never goes away. try to go back to sleep now.
Otto,
have you talked about those events and their details with someone?
what helped me, and of course made me cry a lot, was also talking to the animal, even the long gone ones, and telling them how I feel and how sorry I am.
I can relate to you, this still makes me feel emotional.
also to the persons involved, not only the pets , I have had a few of those as well .
you seem to need so as well, you have all my sympathy.
M
Margaret, those are very good suggestions. Should seem “obvious” to Primal-literate people, but we all need the reminders, sometimes.
while I was getting dressed the other day, there was a moment where I already had my pants on but no cloths on the upper part of my body.
suddenly the memory srruck me of how njoyable it had been as a young kid to run around and play outdoors like that, how good and natural it had felt and how ‘strong’ I had felt back then, confident.
it felt good to suddenly get in touch with that feeling, it seems to help me to remember how it is to stand upright and strong, without worrying about imperfect breast zize or shape.
I keep reminding myself of that feeling, and feel it is empowering in some way, another bit of connection with that young and faiirly vigorous me…
at the last gym and condition training for seniors a small camera crew came by to take some images for the city sport website, and it was fun the trainer had beside the usual aerobic and stretching exercises added some games with balloons. it felt considerate he had not chosen regular balls, as for me a balloon is better, moves slower and is easier to hit.
let’s say I hit it two times out of three, as it was complicated, one time we had to hit it with the right hand or foot, or left, or even head or shoulder and pass it on to some partner.
a lot of laughs and of course people picking up the balloon for me a number of times..
in the end they asked for volunteers to speak to the camera about why we like coming to the training, and there were only two of us wanting to do it.
the other guy did well, although he had to repeat it a second time, and then it was my turn.
it felt good to be able to say it had been a bit scary to try and come , as I had always liked sports but had gotten the visual handicap.
but it had gone very well, a welcoming group and specially very good assistance of the trainers.
so it all had turned out perfectly well, and simply made me feel happy, were my last words with a big smile.
first take was fine, camera guys very pleased and me too.
only one class to go until september as the program changes during the summer.
will try out to go running around the athletic court there instead , is several years ago so it will be hard at first but well, we’ll see how it works out. some people would like to join me so I should go through with it.
M
Margaret I am touched by your account of how self-conscious a woman can feel about her body.
I’m glad that you are enjoying your time with those people at the gym.
Ultimate Superstar Guru: Thank you for your kinds words. Unfortunately, I do not believe that my contributions are either valuable or welcome to most readers.
Renee: I hope this doesn’t breach privacy in any manner, but a large article you once wrote many years ago in the old Primal beige paper newsletters (along with articles from others) was inspirational to me at the time. It’s very clear to me you’ve been around the Primal community for a long time, so I have to say it’s a shame to see your believing your contributions are no longer of any value to most readers.
There’s not much more I can say here at the moment unless others want to chime in. Best of luck to you either way!
Renee,
I am hoping you will decide to write more on the blog. I feel like we’ve had a good connection at several retreats and it would be nice to have you on here more.
Phil
It was nice to see you here Rene. Writing on this blog really can be therapeutic.
Renee, I always enjoy reading your comments. You seem clear and thoughtful. I hope you stay on the blog. You seemed very patient and honest with Patrick too. If there are disagreements among us from time to time we can feel or learn from them. We are all in this together.
renee i dont come on here to contribute. i come on here to shift some of my pain into the ether. most people just contribute to life by getting out of bed daily and carrying on with life. life doesn’t care much what you do, as long as your are breathing.i am probably saying the wrong thing here but whatever….
renee, i have heard your story from you in group, from time to time, and i am glad to have just seen your name on this blog. carry on girl…
Margaret, sounds like delicious fun!
Margaret, i was talking about your trip to the gym. Delightful to hear! I can barely walk around the small park with the dog at the end of the day, after i have given my entire soul to my job all day. and then tonight there were 2 german shepards that i wanted to run away from, they always look so powerful. i talked to my wife on the phone with facetime tonight. she tries to engage me with a smile but i am unable to join in. i feel like she abandoned me and i feel like i can give nothing back to her. reminds me of one of my uncles. he was just an empty shell like me, when he was alive and about the same age as i am today.i have little to give to the wife and i am jealous of her fun, happy relationship with the kid. i think he will be devastated when or if she comes back here. i think most of this is old feelings for me, which is par for how i have lived most of my life. it is hard for me to see reality, i am so stuck in old feelings all the time.
yeah, i am not a talker,but it is good to be reminded about that. I don’t much talk to the dead animals or moms or whatever. not sure if it helps much or not. i cried a lot saturday at pi little room. i took my box of losses and looked at the pix while listening to sad music. my box of losses: mom, best friend, pets, the life i had with wife and kids when we were all young. i dont feel much even though i cry and i am thinking my dose of anti-depressant might be too high. or it is the diabetes nerve damage. every day when i wake up, a thought of a loss greets me. whoopee.
Otto,
I am always surprised how after a gym session I feel ten times more energetic than before, and much more ‘up’..
i almost always wake up feeling scared and with the feeling I am not up to whatever lays ahead of me, won’t be able to cope. I feel sad and hopeless, and have to push myself to start the day nevertheless.
that fun gym group is very beneficial to me, sad it will stop during the summer.
maybe it would be good for you as well if you could find some physical activity with other people you can enjoy. at home I never get to do much exercise apart from household , it seems I neeed to be with other people to get into it and enjoy it.
would find a regular gym boring and intimidating, this is 55plus age group.
it is sad you seemed to look forward to your wife leaving, while now you feel she abandoned you.
it sounds like she does care about how you feel.
good to hear you still have BB and group and the little room and maybe the retreat as well?
I won’t be there this year, miss it in some way but at the same time it feels like the right decision for me this year, working on other aspects of my life in the meantime hoping to make it better over here as del, to increase my circle of friends, or to create one as it has almost vanished.
M
Ultimate Super Guru, Sylvia, Phil, Otto, and Larry: Thank you for your kind, thoughtful, encouraging and heartfelt words. I was moved reading what you all wrote. I guess you guys just gave me a reality check.
Gretchen, your response to me leaves me feeling confused and baffled. Firstly, you say that you think I have a lot to offer by writing on this blog. Yet, it seems that you feel that I have nothing to offer Patrick. You have been quite clear about this. By the way, I have been following the blog since Patrick started writing on it, so your judgment that my viewpoint is myopic does not feel accurate to me. When you defend the ‘group’ as having been welcoming and patient with Patrick, that puts me on the outside of the group, an ‘other’. That does not feel okay to me. Whether I write here occasionally, frequently or not at all, I would like to still be considered part of the group. As an aside, I have also written posts that were less than welcoming toward Patrick. You say that you asked WordPress to block him, but you did not want him blocked from the whole site. What does that mean? You want him blocked from half of the site or only partially blocked? It comes across as ambivalence…….and I believe this has kept Patrick testing you to see what he can get away with……not a good situation for anyone, including Patrick. If you decide at any point that he needs to be fully blocked for a period of time, I will fully support you in doing this. However, if Patrick continues to be able to post here, I’m afraid that I will likely continue to frustrate you by responding in ways that you do not agree with or think that are helpful. I feel I need to apologize in advance. The sign of a true Canadian.
Renee: There are 30-40 million blogs and/or webpages underneath the giant WordPress umbrella covering seemingly any imaginable topic. Blocking Patrick from the entire WordPress site would shut him out of all 30-40 million blogs and webpages instead of just this one very special page. Technically each time Gretchen puts up a new page (whether it’s for a new blog article posted or from simply having too many comments straining the RAM on peoples’ computers necessitating a new blank page for comments) constitutes a new WordPress site Patrick would have to be banned from. There are too many holes Patrick could exploit to circumvent any ban, including several ways I can think of off the top of my head that I haven’t even mentioned yet!
I’m just sharing some of the technical side of this matter; the rest I will leave between you and Gretchen.
Renee,
I do admire the directness with which you say what is on your mind.
it feels honest and courageous, as in this way you are bound to go towards truths, which sometimes must be painful as no one can always be right, but if you have an equally honest and open person you communicate with, it is bound to be constructive at some point.
i know you are most critical of yourself, and very honest, which in my eyes gives you all the credit you need to express yourself in any way you need to.
i am also very happy with your presence here, a fresh strong breeze, smiley.
I do like people who dare to stick out their neck for their opinion and at the same time are able to deal in a constructive way with the responses which can sometimes be difficult I suppose. while searching for the truth about a situation one is bound to find truths about oneself while being that honest.
M
Reneee, Mostly I am trying to figure out why my comments about WordPress seem to be so unclear. I will give it a final try and if it is still not understandable maybe someone else can give it a shot. No I was not ambivalent about asking Patrick to leave, not at all. Though I did take it seriously . When the decision was made I looked to WordPress to see how that might be done. I was also told there are ways around keeping someone off your site specifically i.e. Using another computer or name etc. . When that was done and Patrick did indeed bypass the ban and return it occurred to me that WordPress could ban him from all of WordPress, not just our blog but anyone’s blog should I present evidence of hate speech. I chose not to do that because that could impact Patrick in ways that a two month ban from our specific site would not. There are many people who read the blog but do not choose to engage. Then there are people who have participated since day one. We are all part of the Primal group yes but when I discuss the original reaction to Patrick I am referring to a handful of people who clearly made every effort to be helpful and welcoming. I say this because you have made a point of referring to the ways in which you felt Patrick was ” othered” as you put it. You also feel you are being made to feel outside of the group. I am simply pointing out that though you are very much part of the group and very much welcome we are talking about very specific reactions to Patrick’s comments on therapy and race from day one. I would like to suggest you consider another possibility. If you look back at your earliest comments on this issue that it might be possible it was in fact you that separated yourself ? That it is possible that it was you that ” othered” the group as a whole and not the reverse? I think it’s worth considering. I have supervised many therapists over the years as you know. This I know for sure…. if I have a therapist working very hard in any number of ways to help someone and then I show up and say ” I alone know how to fix this and the rest of you are doing it wrong and in fact if you were not so wrong in your approach this might have been over a long time ago” well I can pretty much be certain I will be seen as an outsider and I can also be certain that any hope of group collaboration is pretty much finished. Even if the therapist does exactly what I think is the correct thing to do it will never come from a place that is real for them. I think I would have to question why I felt the need to approach it that way. You say it’s clear I find no value in what you have to say to Patrick… is it clear? I don’t think so actually as I find pretty much everything you have to say of great value and extremely helpful and interesting. But that being said I don’t think most of it was really for Patrick. That’s for you to discuss or not. I loved what Sylvia wrote to you. We can disagree about things Renee . It does not mean you are not valued or accepted. Not at all. You say you have followed all of this and read the various exchanges. I still don’t understand if that’s the case how you did not know there was a two month ban or that the issue of deleting particularly hateful comments was a separate situation or for that matter how many different approaches have been employed over the years. I guess that’s worth thinking about as well. Gretch
Gretchen: I feel the need to put my two cents in here. When I first encountered Renee on this blog was only a few week ago. I made a remark about myself coming across as a “smart arse (ass)” and a “know it all”. I was reflecting on what I felt some, maybe many, felt about me. Then Renee responded to me with “Stop being a smart ass” Not sure if she put the ‘fucking’ word in there.
I felt that was a patient dictating to another patient; something I would hope to refrain from. Perhaps that has colored my feelings about Renee, BUT I have given her the benefit of the doubt and did state in a later reply to her, that I felt she, Renee, was the only one capable of getting through to Patrick. Seemingly, over time that seem now not to be the case.
However I do feel that Renee is subliminally trying to take you to task Gretchen. Whereas I do feel she’s should have the full right to say how you affect her, BUT … I don’t see that any of us with anyone else has the right to critique anyone else. Further more I do feel any critique of you Gretchen is NOT taking into account your well over 40 years of experience. That, as I see it is invaluable.
Just merely my two cents worth. Jack
Gretchen: First off I want to say I am respecting your ‘ban’ and am not being disrespectful by writing here now. But…………….and here we go again you say more stuff about me that is SIMPLY NOT TRUE! So in the interest of truth and not let mistakes kind of pile on mistakes I want to clear this up. You said
“I looked to WordPress to see how that (a ban) might be done. I was also told there are ways around keeping someone off your site specifically i.e. Using another computer or name etc. . When that was done and Patrick did indeed bypass the ban and return”
Again to be clear just as I did NOT go and pose as someone else to critique one of Janov’s books I did NOT ‘use another computer’ or ‘use another name’ I did EXACTLY AS I HAVE ALWAYS DONE, GONE ON MY OWN COMPUTER AND USE MY OWN NAME! So again what you say here is NOT TRUE! You it seems are kind of constantly imputing behavior to me which is simply not my way. Nor it is the way I was raised. At the risk of pissing you off all over again I would humbly suggest that all these ‘theories’ of my imputed behavior but not my actual behavior are PROJECTIONS of your own nature. It has nothing to do with me and I would appreciate you stick to the truth when you talk about me. You are way too loosey goosey the with ‘facts’ to quote yourself it is beneath you or is should be. OK now I am back to being ‘banned’ and you will not hear more from me at least for a good while but as this post will probably prove it has nothing to do with me ‘going on another computer’ or ‘using another name’
Since I am on here Jack’s post above is so typical of an ass kisser to what he sees as ‘power’ or ‘
authority’ So Renee told him how to behave or something isn’t it about time…………..
Gretchen,
I feel you are doing a great job supervising and responding on the blog.
just felt like saying this, as maybe what I said about how I do admire Renee’s straightforwardness came across as taking a side in the ongoing discussion.
that was not the case.
you put so much effort and energy in reading it all and responding and I am always looking forward to read what you say.
I admire your replies as well, they are very well thought through and also very honest and open.
thanks for all the time and attention you invest here.
M
Margaret,
I agree that Gretchen does a great job with the blog. It looks like Patrick being here is a difficult problem with no ideal solution. Or there is an ideal solution but it has to come from him. Having had his say, he can now stay off the blog, or get some kind of help and come back at a later time to use the blog as others do, for staying connected and sharing about feelings. I don’t see that we should have to be continuously on the receiving end of so much hate, anger, and craziness.
Phil
Phil: I agree that Gretchen is doing a great job … but as I see it; she has quandary deciding between Patrick and his potential to seek some revenge, AND, the upsetting nature he’s causing on the blog to many.
From my experience over 36 years with Patrick I do NOT see him changing, other than if he were to be miraculously thrown into a re-living (Primal) experience. I doubt he be willing to go even there if he had the choice.
I see him as a very sad person … just that.
I don’t envy Gretchen having to make that choice.
Jack
I suspect that the dilemma is what to do that is best both for Patrick and for everyone else. Personally I feel that it is unhealthy that we enable him to sink ever deeper into the rut/struggle with us that he unerringly steers into here. It seems to me we unwittingly provide perfectly the foil that he symbolically needs against which to vent his fear and anger.
Larry: I agree with all that … BUT how do we undo that dilemma???
I’m not sure there is an answer, other than to look into ourselves, what we are doing to provoke or even permit it. there’s the rub.
Jack
Just letting it go on and on, our feeding it and letting it get deteriorate for years with no sign of resolution, to me feels like the passive but unhealthy thing to do. It seems to me that Gretchen’s decision is between what is healthy for Patrick and everyone vs what isn’t, ….not a difficult dilemma for someone like Gretchen whose motivation for setting up and maintaining this blog is to help people, I think.
Phil,
while anger is not unacceptable in general, in this case I tend to agree.
anger is no excuse for rudeness and hurtfulness..
M
Margaret, Phil and Jack, Thanks so much for your vote of confidence. I do appreciate it. Margaret, I had no problem at all with what you said to Renee as I agree completely with what you wrote to her. The taking sides issue was the furthest thing from my mind and I have not felt there was a need for side taking at any point nor did I have the impression that you were doing that in your message to Renee. In any case it’s always good to clear the air so I am glad you brought this up! Gretch p.s. Thanks for your WordPress explanation Guru !
I went to the IPA spring retreat two weeks ago for a day and a half and since then have had a lot of thoughts and feelings about the experience. I was involved with the organization some years ago and that kind of came to an abrupt end. They are a nice group of people but a lot of things they do at their primal retreats seem inappropriate. They mix in different therapy types according to what anyone thinks or feels. Some of that tends to trigger me. I do have friends there and have had good experiences at those retreats because people are working on their issues and willing to listen to me with mine. Because the retreat often takes place in my area it’s something I can easily take advantage of.
This week at work and last week I was spending time looking at their website and yearly newsletters and thinking about my past participation. The other day I had some insights about all this. It has to do with my feelings of wanting to be included in the group, to be considered an important member. And this group too but I’m already here, my high school graduating class; I didn’t go to the reunion but gave it consideration. I guess with the IPA group it feels like there is something more for me by getting involved again. But there is a limit with that, and here too. I guess it doesn’t feel like enough. There isn’t anything which feels like enough.
I also have been fooling around with organizing meetup groups and I guess it’s all for the same reason.
I made a good connection There are good reasons for going to meetings and being a member of a group but for me it also has a lot to do with being noticed, getting attention, old feelings with my mother, being considered important by her, I just wasn’t. There was literally nothing coming from her. Not a thing. I got to some feelings around this when I told my father “she doesn’t even remember me, don’t you see that? Daddy she doesn’t know me, help me with that, do something about that” etc. My feelings were all bottled up and he was of no help.
Phil
Those are good connections, Phil. They sound a bit tenuous, hopefully more time and feeling will make them stronger. Connecting the dots.
Vicki,
Not so tenuous, maybe I haven’t described it well enough. I will try to summarize; there is something I try to get from groups which relates to what I didn’t get from my mother (and lesser extent father). She severely ignored and neglected me as her disease progressed until the point that there was nothing at all coming from her. I was of no importance at all to her. It would be good if I could remember more details on all of this. I had to shut myself off from my mother and sometimes I do that with groups. Not that there’s something bad with involvement with groups, just that I do make that connection with my history.
Feelings on this came up for me this week because of my involvement with the IPA group and their retreat, and what is the attraction for me with that, what is it I want.
A good thing they do at their retreat is a dance party which they hold the evening before the retreat is over. Normally I’m not really an enthusiastic dancer as I feel shy and awkward. Sometimes in the past I wouldn’t get up to dance at all at events. My wife enjoys it so I have to join in with her, but I’d rather not dance with anyone else. At this retreat, my wife wasn’t there, but I did dance and enjoyed it, so that felt like a success.
At past IPA retreats, over 10 years ago, I didn’t join in with dancing.
Phil
Sounds goosd, Phil. I think I did get most of that from your earlier post, but the summary amplifies it. Thanks.
UG, thanks for the compliment about the article I wrote in the PI Newsletter…..something like a gazillion years ago. I had forgotten about that article.
Jack: I apologize for my “smart ass” comment to you. You have been clear that it hurt you. From my perspective, I realize that I actually interpreted you wrongly. I thought that by you calling yourself that publicly, you were giving the readers of that message permission to do the same. I actually felt like a coward when I wrote that message in that I couldn’t give you that kind of feedback without your permission first to do so. On another note, you say that, “I don’t see that any of us with anyone else has the right to critique anyone else”. To me, this sounds hypocritical, as I see you critiquing others quite often. Also, you say that I should have the full right to say how Gretchen affects me. I actually don’t think you believe that I should have this right, unless it is saying something positive to her. And why can I not critique her, while at the same time being aware of her decades of her experience? In your mind, do you see her as beyond critique? If so, that is worrisome to me. As A.S. Neill, the founder of Summerhill School (a school that you have spoken highly of), once said, “I like my heroes to have feet of clay”. I tend to agree with him.
Renee: first off I applaud you for your apology. I recognize your courage in doing so.
I would like to go on and attempt to clarify some of the statements I have made. IF you will permit me. If you would rather not read them; then everything after the dashed lines are my clarification. It is often that misunderstandings occur a great deal between humans, due IMO to many of the ambiguities of language, especially English, which abounds in ‘puns’.
– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –
I was not so much hurt as I was somewhat angry … at the time I did not feel it expedient to state that, for no better reason that it would become a ‘back and forth’, and perhaps not clarifying much. However; as is my won’t; I did so verbally just after reading it, in the privacy of my home. Hence I expressed my feeling.
Also I did feel you misunderstood what I was trying to say:- THAT i KNOW I “come across” ‘as a smart ass; and, a know it all. I don’t think of myself that way … I like me. However, I have seen at the retreat several people not liking me and saying so in group. Since I view that as:- their feeling, if affects me, mostly, very little.
On the question of critiquing:- I try to be very careful NOT to criticize anyone. I deliberately use phrases like:- “I feel that ……….”, “In my opinion”, “As I see you …….”
I do that, to let the reader know that is my feeling about them … NOT what they are. I do not have the right to say, or write:- ‘WHAT, OR WHAT KIND OF PERSON THEY ARE, even for intimate lovers of many years. I cannot have enough knowledge of anyone. I’m not in their head. I’m only in mine.
BUT, equally I do feel I have every right to say how I feel about anyone. My feeling are not arguable. Stating facts is always arguable.
I also feel I am in no position to dictate (tell) anyone what to do; least of all children.
One other point is:- I can always say “I disagree”. that’s not critiquing anyone.
I hope that makes my intent a little clearer.
Jack
deer licking cat. something important here. don’t know what. sorry margaret. not too much detail to give, beyond a baby deer licking a cat. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7kRDPmwzVI
Otto: very endearing … if only we humans could be so loving.
Jack
Or how about a deer stealing a part of a cat’s meal? Doesn’t the deer understand there are laws against such intimidation & thievery?
But the deer did not eat it all, just a bit, then walked away.
Vicki: I was only kidding with my questions (maybe you actually knew this?). I could embark on a small discussion about how a human-level cognition & communication is required to achieve an understanding of such nuances I described between cat & deer, but I suppose it’s not necessary. (Example: Cat can’t possibly understand that the deer can’t say, “I only want to sample a small bit of your meal, then I’ll go.”, which can be intimidating for the cat as a result believing the entire meal is potentially lost, etc. Some of the beautiful complex subtleties that human language can carry which animals can’t fathom.)
UG, I think I had a stray background thought that you “knew better” with your “kidding style” I’ve seen before, but I was first concerned that Margaret wasn’t getting an accurate description, with either video, so I clarified those. That was all my motivation.
The cat licked the deer first, then the deer returned the favor.
that cat was smart! he knew what he had to do to get the deer to lick him!
young deer on blue sheet. red bandanna/collar. new horns sticking out of head. big long deer face, long ears, white fur under neck, big doe eyes. white and orange cat. licking the cat’s head and ears, the cat is grooving and moving its head to the licks. cat gets a little agitated for a sec, then goes back to enjoying it. his head fur is sloppy wet. they are actually on a bed. good closeup framing of the scene, doe’s head mostly and the cat. good lighting and color. it is relaxing. my dog used to lick my arm or leg when i was in bed. that was when i was still sleepiing with my wife. eventually the snoring and the 2 dogs and wife taking up the entire bed, drove me to sleep in a bed by myself. not too many years ago, but the time has flown by so fast.
i have no idea why youtube is suddenly offering me all these licking videos, kangaroo licks cat, goat licks dog , bambi the dog licking cat’s ears. hmmm….
Otto,
thanks a lot for that lovely description, smiley , am still smiling over here, M
my opinion on animal language is that it is so much better than human language. or at least anglo language. i am intrigued by the gesturing that some peoples like the italians do, when they speak. but anyway, my dog communicates so much with just her eyes. well i am not saying much, just wanted to make that point. it bothers me, and i am not talking about anything that you are saying guru, it bothers me that people point out how great humans are because they make and use tools. then we keep discovering that other animals, not just chimpanzees, use tools. just wanted to say that. i was very interested in language as a teenager, probably because i hid my loneliness in comic and other books. and also because i could not speak much, shy or afraid. i took a linguistic class in college and i just dont like the bs that some of those reknowned linguists spouted. whatever. i had a crazy greek language professor who was so super-enthusiastic that it was a joy to watch him teach. but i was depressed when he gushed about a guy who actually went to greece and hung out with greeks and learned greek that way. me too shy and afraid to do anything like that. i spent a lot of time in my garage as a teen listening and repeating to spanish and russian 45’s on my dinky old record player. alone alone alone. and really, never learned to speak those languages. i knew i could make this sililoquy negative, without even trying. i probably had some fun in my garage listening and repeating, and i had the hots for the young girl from brazil who was in my spanish and social studies classes. i tried and tried to get the courage to ask her out, but never could. i heard her talking to another girl behind me in junior high class about how an older kid had tried to get her to put out and pushed her out of his car when she wouldnt. whoopee, painful horrible painful years for me, seeing some many cute girls, and not being able to interact at all with them, and no adult to help me navigate this stuff, and my brother pretty much had abandoned me too. but i had a cat that i loved. but i was not really good to him. i abandoned him and the other siamese cat when my best friend got murdered, which somehow led me to leaving home to join the navy. also abandoned my parakeet. i actually was living with my grandmother still at age 22, the cats remained with her, and she eventually gave the parakeet to some cousin. i was actually abandoning my grandma too, she moaned loudly oh no when i told her i was leaving. she had been fucking with me over my use of pot, which was another reason i left. i was hoping the navy would help me get off of drugs but it didn’t. i feel bad really bad about abandoning cat, bird, grandma. my favorite uncle died when i was in rota spain naval base, and i did not realize i could have flown home to go to his funeral. it was in spain that i found out about primal, and ended up getting kicked out of the navy and did not get primal till 10 years later. when i got out of the navy, i somehow got together with my future wife and that has surely been a strange painful trip. ok i watch deer videos now.
Otto,
I liked this post of yours. About a lot of things you went through in a summarized form, much of which I can relate to.
Phil
so amazing that so many people all over the world care about and love being around animals https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=siOh2Q0xG78 Man Saves Abandoned Baby Deer. of course there are the other insane fuckers who treat them horribly.
not sure if these elephants like beethoven or not Beethoven for Elephants – Thailand https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKcks_4uLmA
last one Being groomed by Shauna the baboon (young woman, looks like africa) releases endorphins. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj7wGL8k7zU
Otto,
I agree with what you wrote about animal communication, which is extensive and subtle.
I enjoyed reading your long comment, and relate to enjoying learning new languages, or trying to.. I once tried learning Japanese and Swahili, but only briefly, but do know a number of European languages to some extent.
glad to hear your cat and parakeet were still looked after, and it sounds like a courageous decision you made to also look after yourself in some way. the more i know about you the more I like you, you seem to have such a kind soul.
M
it is worrisomne Trump went to Saoudi Arabia to settle a 100 billion dollar arms deal, while here we just decided to stop all arms sales to them as they do not respect civil rights and also there is more and more evidence they support terrorism and radicalization..
100 billion dollars makes a lot of arms…and despite my limited information I tend not to trust the Saoudi government…
sigh….
not much we can do at this point, just observe, and take some consolation in the fact at least some governments seem to distance themselves more and more..
M
ps thanks Vicki for that detail about the cat licking first, smiley..
Gretchen, so much of what you wrote to me does not ring true. Rather than defend myself and dispute each item that I don’t think is accurate, which I don’t think would accomplish much, I would like to respond to you in a different way. I have noticed that often after I read a message that you have written to me, I find myself feeling shocked, hurt, blamed and shamed. Sometimes these feelings are so strong, that I feel I need to disconnect and not respond, as a way to protect myself. In an attempt not to do that this time, and to stay open, I would like to ask you something. I’m wondering if, after you read some of my messages, you feel shocked, hurt, blamed and/or shamed. Because if that’s the case, I think you might be wanting me to know (at least on some level), how bad this stuff feels. So you respond in a way that ensures I will. And yes, it’s bad. I get it. Obviously, my intention is not to have you feel any of these things but if that inadvertently happens, I would rather you just tell me directly.
Renee: I hope you don’t mind me butting in here, BUT I saw something in your comment that perhaps, needs to be addressed.
I feel if Gretchen was to reply, whatever she said would trigger you … AGAIN.
example: “after I read a message that you have written to me, I find myself feeling shocked, hurt, blamed and shamed. Sometimes these feelings are so strong,”
I feel these feeling really belong to your past and that Gretchen is merely a catalyst for them. AGAIN; I hope you don’t mind me saying this; they are after all, only MY feelings.
As for Gretchen I am sure she has ample means to deal with her feelings with her husband, Barry. I don’t think Gretchen is beyond feeling hurt … but she does have ample access to dealing with them, whereas you are on your own … unless you have a buddy. If so, I feel that would be the best place to take these feeling that you are currently having. That does in no way preclude you from mentioning YOUR feelings on this blog.
Again Renee I hope this does not offend you in anyway. It just hit me, reading your comment … AND they are purely MY feelings.
Jack
Renee, Of course I would tell you directly what I feel and what’s more I think I have. I think if you look back you will find I have said as directly as possible everything I am thinking or feeling. No, I was not feeling any of the things you have mentioned, hurt, blame or shame , nor would I try to make you feel what I was feeling if that was the case. I was not shocked by your comments but a few did surprise me. It takes a lot more to shock me at this point. To be honest it all seems a bit convoluted as I was simply going for a conversation with an exchange of viewpoints. I wonder when you say that some things I have said are not ringing true for you but you don’t want to dispute them as it would not accomplish much what you mean by ” accomplish” ? Does that mean that I will come to agree with you? As for shaming or blaming…. I can have an awareness of someone wanting to shame me hypothetically but that is not necessarily what I am then feeling. It is what they may want me to feel but it isn’t necessarily what I will in fact feel. But for the record if I was feeling those things I don’t think that would be something that you are making me feel. You are not forcing me to feel shame, I either feel it or I don’t. Personally I don’t believe that making a mistake is a reason to feel shame in any case, at least for me. I will credit Art and Viv for promoting an atmosphere in training where mistakes were not considered more than a learning experience. As for blame, well yes you did have a blaming tone at times and you said as much. But I don’t take that on at all. I think most people would agree I have done my best in a difficult situation. My approach was to simply tell you why I felt some of your comments were off the mark. You did at some point say that after reading a post of mine you had clarity as to what I was doing wrong and that you intended to write as much. I don’t believe you ever did but I would encourage you to say what you want to say and I will respond . You can also just ask me what I am feeling and I will answer. To go back a step to your comment that it would not accomplish much to dispute the comments that did not resonate…ok but what about the comments that are not disputable? Why no comment on those? You know Renee therapists are completely exposed especially a therapist who does groups or writes their thoughts on a blog. I have been doing this for many years and if I was not comfortable with being told I was wrong I would be completely paralyzed by now. As a therapist you are somewhat on display and at the mercy of a million opinions. The best way to deal with that in my opinion is to hold on to who you are, remain grounded and do your best to be open to feedback. I do have the sense that you did arrive with a mindset and that it is difficult when I say there may be another perspective. Obviously you can say whether you think that is true or not. In any case I would like a conversation in these situations, I prefer not to overthink but just to respond in as close to real time as possible. Gretchen
watching some show about the 70’s on hbo. dont want to cry today. drained. 97 degrees. too too hot. 70’s were rough for me. still rough
renee,
this time I would like you to specify about what exactly Gretchen said you feel so bad.
you sound like in the middle of a strong feeling, I hope you don’t mind me asking.
but I do as I think it is important, as I do not see what is really going on in a clear way but do care.
M
70’s music. i guess being in the navy, i missed out on stuff back in the u.s. disco dancing. i would have missed out no matter what. and i feel so deprived so so deprived, every day, all the time.
Gretchen, “accomplishing” does not mean you coming to agree with me, although I know that is what you believe. My experience of when I dispute something with you or disagree with you, is that it leads to you defending, justifying, and explaining yourself, which then leads to me defending, justifying, and explaining myself. It doesn’t go anywhere. I have been through this enough times with you to know that it is a dead end.
You ask, ” but what about the comments that are not disputable?” What are some comments that you made that you feel are not disputable?
You say that, “I do have the sense that you did arrive with a mindset and that it is difficult when I say there may be another perspective”. This makes no sense to me. I believe there are many perspectives with regard to most things. I think that you might have felt judged when I told you (in an email) that I did not like or agree with your approach to Patrick. At that time, I think I was trying to tell you that there were other perspectives in terms of ways of responding to him that had not been tried. Perhaps it would have made a difference if I also had said that I saw that you were doing your best in a very challenging and difficult situation (which I do believe). I don’t know. You can tell me if this would have made a difference.
The only “mindset” that I am aware of is one that I feel I have been transparent with: I wanted Patrick to stop writing his hate-filled messages; I wanted him to stop insulting you and others; I identified with, and had empathy for, the role Patrick was in on the blog; and I felt I might be able do something about all these things by offering an approach that I did not believe had been tried (even though you have disagreed with this). If you think I have had another mindset, or agenda, I would be curious to hear it.
Finally, you state that, “I don’t believe that making a mistake is a reason to feel shame in any case, at least for me”. I don’t understand why you are bringing in the idea of a ‘mistake’. Are you saying that I somehow made a mistake but shouldn’t feel shame? Are you saying that you made a mistake but don’t feel shame about it? Who made a mistake and shouldn’t feel shame?
Renee,
This discussion between you and Gretchen reminds me how difficult it can be solving something with online communication. Probably 15 or 20 minutes of speaking would be equivalent to many days of blog postings and/or emails. Anyway, I’ve certainly experienced it as a problem myself.
I think many of us did try communicating with Patrick in the way you were doing, for the same reasons, to try something different. But it didn’t work.
I guess I’m expressing my frustration with a discussion that doesn’t seem to be going anywhere and where there seems to be a lack of understanding.
Phil
a few days ago I had a dream in which I had an intense feeling of how unbearable it would be to end up all on my own, a very intense feeling.
last night I had a dream in which I felt deep sadness, did cry in the dream, which was actually located in a nice seacoast setting, kind of Spanish, linked to the years I lived in Spain by the coast, a beautiful place with a lot of happy times in between the more unhealthy drug related times.
in this dream I started sobbing while looking at some peaceful scenery, I think I was overwhelmed with nostalgia and sadness about all I have lost..
writing about it stirs the feeling up again..
in a way it is reassuring that if in my daily waking life I often do not find ‘entries’ into the feeling, or do not feel like going there but rather do something else, my dreams still lead me to where I need to go..
every now and then…
I miss Spain, miss the seaside with its small trails along the rocky coast, its flowers, its wind, its waves and sunshine, and of course my own capacity to take it all in visually…
it is a big loss, but I have to live with it anyway and still try to make the best of things..
M
Wow Margaret……I have no words….except wow. And a feeling, that I have no words for…. Just a deep feeling of wow and empathetic wowness and yeah…I feel yah. Gosh….big loss. And i saw that none one else had responded to this entry of yours and and I just wanted you to know that someone had heard you. I know that others here heard you but just didn’t respond for various reasons. Linda
watching a program with recent findings about stars and habitable planets.
the latest findings suggest strongly in our galaxy alone there might already be tens of billions of habitable, earthlike planets…
fascinating thought..
here on earth we seem to all descend from the same billion year old life form, the first living cells here we all share as ancestors.
an intriguing question is whether that same process occurred on other planets, life here needs water, does it do so everywhere?
life on earth also turns out to be much older than originally thought, so really primitive circumstances might be enough for life to start, which also increases chances of life on other planets.
very simple first cells might have invaded each other, and then merged and survived as a unit being the start for more complex, eucaryotic cells, the kind of cells that form our bodies.
compex life has to go through that bottleneck first to evolve , but as it did here, there is no reason it could not happen elsewhere…
questions arise as to communication when other species exist, and of course one place to start is trying to communicate with species on earth.
tests with dolphins are being done, as to find out if they understand abstract concepts like ‘more’ or less’.and yes, they can!
they are blindfolded as not to catch visual cues from the laminators.
the challenge is as well how , if any, other intelligent and technologically developed civilisation would try to communicate.
i have always been fascinated with all the possibilities, must admit at some points I have even tried , just to alt least give it a try, to make mental contact, ha ha, in the sense of ‘I am here wanting to meet you, wanting to get in touch’…
would love to see a ufo.
part of it may be some old distorted hope, but there also is this vast reality of stars, and billions of milky ways each with billions of stars and their planets.
one problem is in our current state of view, they are too far away, civilizations would not last long enough for communication to be possible.
still, how likely is it small animals would get across oceans to colonize another continent, and still species did in many ways and still do.
computers made models showing processes like that can happen on a galactic scale as well.
in any case, the conclusion of the program is, even if we are alone having passed the bottleneck of complex life and civilization, it gives us all the more responsibility to take care of our planet…
M
cry cry cry on a late sunday afternoon Mozart Piano concerto no 27 in B flat major, KV 595 Trevor Pinnock the girl with the cello really gets to me. she must remind me of my mom,sweet smile and soulful swaying to the music. as much as i cry and remember little tidbits of the few days i had with my mom and the barren life after that, i will never be anything less than completely broken and unable to be with people.
m, some of those licking videos that i posted and watch daily now, makes me conclude that “more” and “less” are possibly not abstract concepts. dog wants cat to keep licking him some more and looks at the cat and so the cat resumes licking. cat wants less of a licking and pulls away. maybe they are only feeling “more” and’ “less” instead of thinking it? anyway. i don’t care that much about people. i hurt hurt hurt and always will.
Renee, I tend to agree with Phil that maybe writing in these situations doesn’t somehow translate. My first response to your post was to write back ” ok” but that somehow seems rude or flip. Also when something is addressed to me it feels wrong to simply say ” I have read this” and move on. So I’m a bit between the proverbial rock and a hard place. I think the best approach might be brutal honesty so get ready to be shocked once again. This whole thing strikes me as a bit of a mind fuck! First of all I had completely forgotten you even mentioned Patrick in your email. I have since looked at it and found it basically said what you have repeated on the blog. I don’t even know if I actually said much about your comments at the time and I certainly was not wishing you acknowledged it was a difficult situation. Likely my response was exactly what it has been on the blog. That I felt you were ill informed. Period. Why are you asking me why I brought up my response in general to shame and mistakes? Renee, you asked me if I felt shamed, blamed or hurt ? Why would I feel shamed? The only answer to that is because you felt I was handling the situation badly which is exactly what you said. So why are you now confused that I respond by saying that I did not feel those things but if I had and if I felt mistaken in my approach that shame is not where I tend to go. So why the confusion and the questions about what I meant when I said if I had been mistaken I would not feel shame? What is not disputable? You have said several times why don’t we ban Patrick….. you can simply look back on the blog and see that is exactly what we did. I even went so far as to explain the process to you as did Guru and you can read my post to him asking him to take a couple of months away, it is in black and white . What’s ambivalent about that? If you want to know why he easily gets back on talk to WordPress. I could not have written a more heartfelt post as to my views on the matter. Renee I have looked back at the things you hacve written directly to me….most are filled with questions. I either ignore your questions or I am labeled defensive. If I answer honestly as I am now I am accused of shaming or ” othering” you as you put it. On top of that I have not just answered the questions but I have tried to point you in another direction. I have said I don’t believe this is about Patrick, that I think you need to talk about you and that the pattern with Patrick has no similarities to any other responses you have had on the blog. I am trying to point out that the mindset may be a cover for something within. I remember Sylvia writing you and saying that many different things had been said to try and help Patrick , looking back I specifically remember things that Margaret, Guru and Larry have said. You response was unequivocal….you did not agree. That’s what I mean by mindset. So what is this really about? I think it’s about something you are wanting from me. Gretchen
I want to interject with a couple of small points. Even though I explained there are many ways Patrick could circumvent the ban, I didn’t want to imply that he would or will do so. I probably didn’t make it clearer that a blog ban would be pointless unless going by the honor system and relying on Patrick’s voluntary compliance. How much time is left on this ban?
Renee,
it is OK to need or want something from Gretchen. nothing to be ashamed about.
I agree you should talk with her in a more direct way, to be able to go to the underlying feelings.
I would suggest you do try a phone call anyway, even if it does not resolve stuff there are some huge feelings there for you.
you are OK, merely overwhelmed and I relate to you and you have all my sympathy and support.
maybe it can help you to look for resemblances with feelings you have with regard to your mom, I know you know that but it is scary ground to tread and I feel like supporting you on that one.
tell Gretchen in person what you need, or do so by yourself, this must be one big scary feeling you have to face, but I think you can do it.
I can relate to how you feel in many ways, and it is a hard place to be in.
M
Gretchen, your message to me left my head spinning! It all just seemed so convoluted. The only part that made sense was what you said, and Phil agreed with, that this stuff is not conducive to writing about on a blog. So let’s just leave at that.
That makes sense Renee. Heads were not designed for spinning ! 🙂 G.
Sad news in England! Horrible! G.
Gretchen: More than a bit of a shock because Manchester was the nearest city to the town I was born in (Oldham 7 miles north east of the Manchester). AND Victoria station, close to the arena is the station to which all trains to Oldham went from (platform 8).
So!!! close to home … as it was in my childhood and youth.
Jack
young kids dead. evil.
That must be a bit surreal Jack, watching that on the news! Yes Otto you are right. That’s the first thing I thought. Ariana is the kind of concert young girls attend! So sick. Gretch
Gretchen: Yes, it’s surreal, but not any more surreal than any other so called terrorist act is also surreal. I say:- “one mans terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter”. A case of ‘the kettle calling the frying pan black’. I feel if we humans could all be a little more reflexive into ourselves … we might see that we are part of the problem. In this sense I am inclined to agree in essence with what I feel Miguel is attempting to say. Why is a terrorist act in England any more ominous that any terrorist act anywhere else in the world … AND who is designating what is and what is not a terrorist act???
If my reading of Primal theory is correct (questionable I grant) then we need to look, further into how a terrorists comes about. It’s a more difficult question than on the face of it. My take (for what it is worth) is that, if we repress, humiliate, denigrate, OR worse try to eliminate them by killing them … then aren’t we as guilty as we say they are???? Killing is killing, by what ever justification one assumes.
However, the only way I see to resolve the “Good guys” AND “Bad guys” is to question ourselves; why we consider them, “bad guys” and assume we/I are the good guys.
There’s the good and bad in every one of us … as far as I am able to ascertain
Jack
Jack, your point is taken. Monsters have been created. The terrorists are acting out their abuse–physical, emotional, economic perhaps; but freedom fighters in my mind do not murder children. These are terrorists totally shut off from humanity and any feeling at all.
It would seem there could be a way to deal with Isis besides killing, but it has gone too far and it seems their leaders are leading them into the mouth of hell. And the lone wolf is probably unstable to begin with and are easily used and swayed.
My 2 cents.
For the most part, I agree Sylvia; but the problem is not new. We’ve been killing one another from time immemorial.
My point was in attempting to kill them. Like the ever frustrated child, revenge in whatever is available … the more we squelch then the more gross will be their means. It’s sort of inevitable. That’s what I mean when I say WE are part of the problem.
We justify our killing, BUT call their limited ability to even express what they require … and then wonder why such barbarity … without looking into our own.
It’s a sad, sad state of affairs.
Jack
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBpd26qa1eI#t=93.274556 HOPPY THE DEER YOUNG AND BOUNCY hoppy running around like crazy. of course makes me sad about my lost youth. just had to be sad at something happy.happy hoppy.
or my lost mom. happy happy mom. beautiful voice calling hoppy hoppy. nice music too. must be canadians or louisiana bayoo people. happy happy
sad dead old fat ugly man crying about some deer running around and dancing with happy young woman to cajun man. despicable me. sorry that is what i feel. creepy.
Gretchen.
It is so sad what have happened in Manchester. An even more sad when you cannot call a spade a spade. A terrorist attack is not called like that, it is just the action of a lone wolf. The same happened with German authorities. I guess the British have missed the point. The problem is not Europe in particular but inside them. Doesn’t Manchester look like Beirut? Lets the bright minds of Westminster discover about that? It is not easier recognize that there is a problem and call a spade a spade?
miguel
Miguel, as a British person, I somehow feel critised by what you say…. although I really don’t know what you are on about…I don’t find you clear😕
I am I mmensely horrified, saddened, by the Manchester event..
This is just so terrible.,
I agree with Jo, and I am not a British person. Your comments come across as quite offensive, Miguel. “The problem is not Europe in particular but inside them”, you write. What exactly is the problem inside Europeans?
Renee and Jo
I say so because European authorities and so do British do not address the real issue with this kind of terrorism, be it because they are afraid of political correctness, or whatever. So if the real issues are not addressed and the problem recognized, it might be difficult to reach real solutions. It seems to me the position of European authorities a kind of cowardice.
Miguel
So the European authorities are more aptly described as Europeons?
Miguel, you haven’t made clear what you feel are the real issues, or what YOu would do about them, which is probably a more important issue than second guessing the motives of the ‘authorities’. Anyway, who exactly is saying it is Europe ? Is it Spanish news agency? Our British news is all about the tragedy, the grief of parents and relatives, and the establishment of whether it was one or several persons.
Say what? Please enplane. I have no idea what you are talking about.
Miguel, what is not clear to me is what you see as the real issues and problems underlying this terrorism. Please explain.
well, in the meantime it does remain all the more worrisome that Trump just made a 100 billion arms deal with the Saudis, who are seemingly sponsoring some of the main terrorist groups.
some of the more radical imams we have here came straight from Saudi Arabia, and Belgium decided to cancel some weapon deals with that country, or is still debating about doing so.
those ‘lone wolfs are usually influenced by propaganda on the internet , while of course also being pretty sick in their head to do such a thing.
it is indeed so sad and crazy..
M
Miguel,
It’s very sad. I think that one source of the problem is our policies in the Middle East. All of the territory that ISIS holds will be taken away but that terrorist group and others will still exist, or new ones will pop up, and there seems to be some attraction to their message.
There is no easy solution to the problem.
Phil
What is their message? I don’t mean to be impertinent. I simply don’t know what their message is.
I don’t really want to see more on this Manchester story but it’s unavoidable; such a hideous act to target young people out to a concert. So much pain for so many people. Now the fear of future such acts. I feel so sorry for those people and their families.
Phil
Any young life violently destroyed is an unspeakable tragedy, but I still ask myself: Did the combined optics of the world’s 400,000 news media outlets make it unavoidable for us to see the 150 children worldwide under age 18 killed in their automobiles today?
WoW. 150 children killed in autos today, May 23,2017? Did I understand this statistic correctly? I am seriously requesting a confirmation of my understanding .And UG, I am NOT requesting this information in any way disrespectfully . Because I was of the same mind mode….. thinking that ….I wonder how many humans had died due to other modes of death due to …neurotic f..’d -upness.
Hi Linda:
I used some quick calculations to come up with that estimate, but I’m pretty sure it’s not far off the mark. I was figuring 1,100,000-1,200,000 auto fatalities worldwide each year, which conservatively translates to 3,000 auto fatalities every day.
I then referenced a long list of fatalities in my home state (a sample of about 700 or so) and sorted it by age with 18 being the upper cutoff.
35 out of the 700 victims were under the age of 18, so 35 is 5% of 700.
Extrapolate the same 5% under age 18 demographic across the world and you have 150 fatalities per day (150 is 5% of 3,000 worldwide fatalities per day). So yes, 150 children per day.
Linda: May 24, May 25, and May 26 would add another bundle of 450 kids on top of the 150 you inquired about for May 23. 600 child fatalities total for the past four days.
One of these days I am going to retire from trotting out these grim numbers, though. It puts me at too much of an emotional disadvantage when most billionaire playboy aspirants don’t even think about these things.
the chinese can hack into opm and the russians can hack into the dnc. meanwhile, we can’t hack into these terrorist websites and redirect their messages of hate to young impressionable minds? redirect or change those messages, scare the shit out of young fools watching that crap? the nsa can gather info on millions of phone calls but can’t find the hate servers and crash them? bring more chinese and russians to the u.s. to do that, if we can’t. i know it is HORRIBLY bad of me to think this way, but in my mind, i see thousands of Manchester parents picking up clubs and heading to the muslim part of town and rousting out those bastards, those muslims see or hear about these furtive young punks and do nothing about it. yes, please understand i am an angry hateful racist person. i don’t like it, but my horrible deadly anger exists. i also saw in my mind the mother of all bombs crushing those ISIS guys in afghanistan, and i felt bad for those young kids,stupid young terrorists. sorry just rantiing, arab kids need jobs and mental therapy and integration into their adopted countries. guess i better get back to videos of cats licking deers. said too much already.
that wasn’t me that said that. i am definitely keeping it together.
Bowfinger 1999 “Keep It Together” clip
Renee you said.
“Your comments come across as quite offensive, Miguel.”
Renee you might agree or not about the reasons certain believes and cultures are more criminals than others, but why my comments were offensive?. Do you mean Renee I do not feel empathy with the victims in Manchester? I only tried to point out that the European authorities has not taken the problem of this kind of terrorism seriously . It they had taken it beforre some victims could be saved. That we are in a war that will take long time, and it must be addressed this way, because certain ideologies from the moment of its origins were clearly criminal and offensive. I knew it before the attack the Twin Towers in New York. My intuition told me that soner or later there will be a clash between these two cultures.
It is childlike way of seeing the problem not acepting reality. Some cultures promote assassinations, not all members but the rest support the idea. That is exactly what Janov says. It is a childlike way that only putting some flowers and candles the problem will go away.
So Renee what it is offensive? that the British army is in the street?, that when you arrive to a French airport there are armed soldiers with guns in them? The army is not the only solution, but it might be the first step towards solving the problem: accepting reality.
Miguel
Miguel,
you say “I only tried to point out that the European authorities has not taken the problem of this kind of terrorism seriously ” that is a ‘chidlike’ statement, and it’s interesting you think that the ‘authorities’ have not accepted reality…
What (little) I know is that in Britain, MI5 is on to all forms of terrorism 24/7, and make at least one arrest a day on average.
Miguel,
I’ve thought that governments have accepted the reality of terrorism but the question is what is a good solution. A hard line solution, which might be what you are suggesting, isn’t necessarily the right one, in fact I feel it’s what has led to the current situation.
I think it’s possible for people of different religions to live together in piece, even though we aren’t right now seeing it.
Otherwise what is the policy? Exterminate all Muslims in the Middle East because they are bad? Try to take away their religion? Deport them all from our countries?
Phil
I know I have feelings of being preached at…but I also feel that anyone who has strong feelings about e.g.a government or social issue, (underlying feelings apart) needs to take some action, however small, if they want change, perhaps expressing their feelings by writing directly to their local government/authority.
Otto,
also in your first comment it was clear while you express your anger you are also monitoring and self correcting yourself, so no worries.
I think many of us can relate to the frustration and anger towards people that do such a thing, while also knowing they are sick and brainwashed, and more important, being aware of the peaceful Muslims that joined the wake that same evening, at the risk of undergoing another vicious terror attack.
it feels OK the way you express yourself.
could you post that link to the cat and deer licking once more please? I want to send it to a friend of mine. if it is not too much trouble, otherwise don’t mind leaving it, no big deal.
M
Hi Jo
These reports and research has been done and British authorities already have known that. There have to die 22 persons so that authorities take certain issues seriously?
There is a journalist for the times who brought up a huge sex scandal .and that are facts not opinion and also an investigation by Alexis Jay a professor by the Rotherdham Town counsel. Also facts not opinions. And the similar cases had happened sot as bad in Germany Holland and Sweden.
You can find all that in an article by Daniel Ari called Rotherham capital of infamy in http://www.clublibertaddigital.com/ideas/tribuna/2017-02-09/daniel-ari-roterham-capital-de-la-infamia-81360/
News paper libertaldigital.com 2/09/17 is in spanish
Rotherham child sex scandal: Andrew Norfolk on how he broke the story
The Times journalist on his reporting style, why it’s hard to relax – and why he won’t move to London
https://www.theguardian.com/media/2014/sep/28/rotherham-child-sex-scandal-andrew-norfolk
Daniel Ari says:
“In addition to reporting a very serious case that the local police had attempted to conceal, Andrew Norfolk’s article involved the bursting of a pressure cooker: Jessica’s case resulted in Operation Clover by the National Agency Against Crime (NCA) Which uncovered dozens more cases of similar characteristics, and an investigation commissioned by the Rotherham Town Council (250,000 inhabitants, 10% Muslim) to Alexis Jay, a professor and former chief counsel for Social Affairs of Scotland.”
“The initial findings of the Jay Report, which came to light in August 2014, were devastating. Between 1997 and 2013, at least 1,400 minors (the vast majority of poor girls and unstructured households with sometimes only 11 years) were systematically raped by multiple offenders, kidnapped, transferred to different cities to be prostituted, beaten and intimidated. (As more cases of sexual and physical abuse are known, the number of 1,400 victims has come to be considered conservative).·
These are Daniels aris opinions
“In all these countries, the cowardice of the political class evidences a serious dissociation between its relativistic and multicultural agendas and the real needs and problems of the citizens. Their absolute inability to establish the limits of coexistence, their betrayal of culture and their own values, their broad sleeve for crime when crimes are committed by Muslims, all this is passing a very expensive bill to our societies. If the traditional parties do not wake up and begin to act, not for the Europeans, but at least to avoid being swept away by the populist options that appear on the horizon, the future will contemplate us from a minaret.”
Miguel,
I don’t think that the problem of sex trafficking is limited to the Muslim community. This brings up the issue of racial profiling. A practice which ends up violated the rights of innocent people. I think the answer is to vigorously pursue the criminals without implicating a whole community.
Phil
Phil, thank you for your imput in regard to Miguel’s replies.
Miguel, I don’t need ‘facts’ and articles.. I just felt your original post was insulting.
I want to change the subject here a little and complain about my job. It really drags me down. I really hate coming here. It is overwhelmingly boring. I need to be doing something different but haven’t been able to make any change or move in any direction.. It feels like I can’t do it and that also seems to be the reality of the situation.
Phil, are you saying there is a direction to go in and you don’t see a convenient way to do it?
Is there another job that you would like and there’s available training or education for it?
What things are holding you back? Do you want to say?
S
Sylvia,
All good questions. I’m not seeing any direction to go in. I feel like I am limited to
something related to what I’m already doing and the jobs just don’t exist around here
and we won’t be moving.
Not to mention that the work place would need to be different and if I’m looking to be inspired,
it would have to be a lot different. These are all things holding me back and other things like my age, bills that have to keep being paid, and not wanting to end up in a worse place than I am now.
I don’t necessarily want to even focus that much on it, just do a little complaining, but it is an issue.
Phil
Phil: I can’t resist this in view of your response to Sylvia … BUT here goes:-
It sounds very debilitating what you are having to go through, in terms of work …in order to put food on the table and pay the bills.
I hereby am referring to our dialog about my favorite contention about money. Yeah! Yeah! I know this doesn’t alter anything for you in the present. However, I hope you are not offended by me stating this in view of your last comment.
I too in my early twenties went through having to do a job that I hated and was totally against all I felt I wanted to do in life. I was doing it for my parents sake. I had no idea how to get out of it; until fate did it all for me. I was arrested for homosexual behavior, and was asked to resign my job … then my father threw me out of my child-hood home with some meager saving … I was on my own for the very first time in my life … without a home… no friends, that were willing to bail me out. and my saving running out on food.
I then hitch hiked to London arriving with one and a half pennies in my pocket, I had considered London to be the center of the universe, which I knew I wanted to live there, when I first passed through on my way to do conscripted military service, some 3 years before.
I spent the first two nights sleeping in the waiting room at Waterloo station, being harassed and made to move on during the night by the police.
BUT, somehow I go through it. Slowly but I was determined. Phew!! just writing about it now makes me shudder. Where did I get the tenacity to keep going with it.
However, it was at that point that I began to do a lot of re-thinking about life. Two things occurred to me. the first was the inevitable NEED for money and the second was:- who are these people; sitting in Parliament telling us what, and what not to do.
It was at that point I attended some lectures in Regents Crescent. Their theme was the unutterable farce of Democracy. That was a great influence on me, and has never left me since. Should ‘money’ not exist then you current situation would never exist. Getting to that point is something I only briefly touched on with Tim Gordon some weeks ago.
I doubt it will help Phil except to say … there are always options … not necessarily obvious OR easy … but they do exist.
Jack
Jack,
I see from what you’ve shared here and other times that you’ve had a very interesting and adventurous life.
About my dissatisfaction with my job, it’s true there are always alternatives and choices which can be made but none of them currently appear advantageous. Besides everything else I mentioned I have to take my partner’s feelings and opinions in to consideration, and my son still living at home and going to college who has to continue with that.
My wife has been feeling a lot of stress from her job and so isn’t very sympathetic about my complaints. It’s so bad for her that she wants to get away as soon as the school year is over. Too bad we can’t switch jobs for a while so that I can experience a little more stress to stimulate me and she could get a little relaxation and boredom,and we both could get variety, but I’m afraid we can’t do that.
If not for the money, I would not be continuing this job at all. My downfall has been I never wanted to stay in one job too long and left some positions that were much more satisfying than my current one.
Phil
more details got in the news about Manchester.
some mothers got killed while they were waiting for their daughters to leave the concert hall. I hate imagining being one of those girls having to suffer the shock , the terrible shocking tragedy of not meeting mommy as expected but having to deal with this kind of horror nightmare.
it does trigger my own childhood memory of dread to lose mom or simply the pain of not seeing her when expected and having to stay overnight with somebody ‘strange’ in a dorm a few times. I think I would go crazy if such a thing would have happened to me, like in Manchester. your world falling apart.
inconceivable..
M
Margaret: It’s horrendous what all this is doing to us all. But I did feel the inspiration to write from another of my obtuse perspectives.
One of the things that really grabbed me and reading “The Primal Scream” was that it suggested to me; that most of the answers we grapple with are NOT solvable by merely looking at the event on the surface of it. The root causes and, as I read the book, more often than not, laid it in the very distant past.
I do see there is a political polarization taking place all around the world. Donald Trump epitomizes it. demonstrating the easy solution to all problems, BUT in effect NOT seeing the consequences of all the things he would hope to bring about. To me is the fallacy of those ‘off the cuff’ re-action to political problems.
I see that most solution do not reside there. Albeit, that was the way most of us only knew how to deal with problems before therapy. As a result I see the terrorist situation somewhat from a different perspective. We could have ten times the number of CIA’s, FBI’s MI 5’s, MI 6’s KGB’s et al, and we would never be able to stop the terrorist. They are ever diligent to make sure they are not preempted.
So how might we tackle the problem, of some that are so desperate, they will do ANYTHING to put their point across. Alas the governments and even social workers do see that most of it emanates from child-rearing and ones early child-hood. Even if the social worker we cognoscente of it all emanating there NONE, as I see it, would be capable of changing the mindset of the ‘so-called-terrorist.
Is there a solution???? … I don’t know … but my idea is to eliminate that, that prevents parents from naturally loving and caring for their babies. For the most part, one of the culprits is religion and ethics, hence Government that assume they know better than the rest of us. It’s all about “CONTROL … of the other guy … oh no!!!! not me/us, but the other. The other doesn’t exist … we are all one … creature.
Jack
i guess i had an extra month with my mom. maybe the last month of her pregnancy when i was bulging her belly out. i would have been almost fully developed. why is this important to me? i am sure i would have heard the piano she would have been playing, since while she was seated i would be really close to the piano. i am just saying to myself, where did i first hear this song? and that thought or image comes into my head…while still inside her. maybe i am wrong. maybe she was too fat and could not play the piano in the last month. why is this important to me? if she was moving her arms and hands and maybe her whole body, so as to play the piano, i would have felt those movements. it would have been a great beginning for me, a great foundation for the future to have those movements being engraved into my lizard brain. or maybe all those movements made my birth position bad, and i had a tough birth. who knows. why is this important to me? it’s not…just some thoughts. or just some reality i am avoiding by writing this instead of going with those thoughts.
Otto: your said in this last comment:- “why is this important to me? it’s not…”
Sounds to me Otto, IT’S VERY IMPORTANT.
Jack
i guess it would be important if i could still reach and bring out those foundational movements out of my lizard brain. they must still be there. a gentle grace. a vigorous knowing strong personality, one which got so perverted 11 months later. i could really be a superman, like my hero, superman. always wanted to be that good sweet strong person, unafraid.
i posted this before, but just to show you what i mean about the movements, like this lady playijng the piano. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dy9Yzes8w8
that’s all. i got to emphasize those few months of joy, bring it up into reality, get out of my dead cocoon and rejoin life. sure.
rebuild, as it were.
Otto, sounds like a good plan.
so the biggest loss, of the many losses i have had, is the loss of me.
Jo
That was my original post.
“Gretchen.
It is so sad what have happened in Manchester. An even more sad when you cannot call a spade a spade. A terrorist attack is not called like that, it is just the action of a lone wolf. The same happened with German authorities. I guess the British have missed the point. The problem is not Europe in particular but inside them. Doesn’t Manchester look like Beirut? Lets the bright minds of Westminster discover about that? It is not easier recognize that there is a problem and call a spade a spade?”
Miguel
I cant find anything insulting. I just said some opinions you might agree or not. What is it insulting for you in that and why?
Miguel
I meant critical, not insulting.
Otto, it sounds indeed like you are getting in touch with some very early good memories, which sounds truely important. and sure a baby can hear the piano music and other music from the womb.
today my brother brought our mom over here to my place, and as I finally got the sheet music from van Beethoven’s Fur Elise, I assisted mom a little to freshen the part up she has forgotten. she read some of the music but started making some mistakes, but as i remember the piece well, I could help her out so we did make some progress and it was fun as well.
I loved my mom most while she played the piano as a child and now it still touches me a lot too.
then we all went to her nursing home, to spend some more time together, and a very touching thing happened when I walked with her through the common room of her ward, where they can eat together and do other things together , play games or go out into the little garden they have . we planned to go into the larger garden with her, but anyway, we passed by one of the oterh residents of her ward, a man who can’t talk anymore,and who makes groaning sounds all the time. most people walk by him, but mom stopped and let go of my arm and walked up to him while I just stood and watched and listened. she started talking to him very gently, telling him she would adjust something again, that she had already told him to do so but that that was ok, she would do it, I think it was his collar or maybe a strap holding him up in his wheelchair. but she was so very sweet to him, talking softly, and stroking him over his hair several times, all the time just saying nice things to reassure him.
then she came back to me, saying she felt sorry for him, and I told him how sweet she was to him and how much he must appreciate it for sure.
it really touched me a lot, it says so much about her, how caring she is, as she does not know him, or his name, as she does not remember anybody she has not known except long time friends, and still…
it must be very nice for the nurses and other caretakers as well to see her do this, as she did it perfectly, not too much and not too little, just perfectly nice.
specially the way she stroke over his hair, putting it right and then some more times just to caress him, so endearing.
then we sat out in the large garden with some old friends of her who now also live there, and they told us mom now joins the morning gym regularly as well. we made a little walk, under the huge trees full of singing birds, it was special enough for me to call it like a fairy tale wood and mom immediately agreed, the day was so nice and sunny and warm, little breeze, all birds singing celebrating the spring..
mom made us laugh a number of times as well, so in brief, a very nice afternoon.
I had bought some shirts for her and she loved them all..
mmm, a nice afternoon to remember and cherish. my brother felt it too, a relaxed and very nice feeling of things being OK today.
M
Margaret, I could feel the warmth of your visit with your mom. You and your brother must be happy for these good times together. You made my day.
S
I agree with Sylvia Margaret! Your special day with your Mom and brother and the beautiful description of the tender moments was a delight to picture!
L
Jo it is ok
It is normal to have ideas. However we live in a world dominated by ideologies that contradict reality and we have authorities that instead of protecting citizens from dangers as their lives are dedicated to promoting ideologies that go against their security, their own lives and their interests. Politicians can vote in their parliaments that the land is round, or discuss ad infinutum about left o right ideologies.
In spite of it, I believe deeply in democracy. But citizens should be treated with respect and not be considered small children and treated in a childish way. There has to be a more effective way of managing public issues: such as life, liberties, possessions, etc. Perhaps it is time for us to move from political parties to effective and efficient private professional management of public issues.
By putting flowers, candles keep minutes of silence in honor of the victims is a good symbolic gesture in honor of the victims, but nothing solves. We must promote the responsibility of our authorities and citizens. Our life and that of our children may be in danger.
Miguel
Miguel: I find you to be a very bright person, and I like most of your comments. However, I did find one phrase in the last comment that I find does not fit with many other things you’ve stated:- “In spite of it, I believe deeply in democracy.” I consider that believing in democracy is like believing in God or any other belief. I am wary of believing in anything and would rather stay with “I like” or ” I don’t like”. Believing is a weird word and is more often than not, used to make it closer to knowing than not knowing. ‘Believing’ is a convenient word that requires no other contemplation.
We’ve had democracy for some time now and the democratic system is for ever trying to fix it for poeple in general. Sadly for me, one anyone voted into any position of power; their main interest from there-on-in is to maintain that (so called) power. It’s against the very nature of our natural being, a la the Primal theory/concept. Why do we need to be governed at all? It’s just another means of CONTROL “Oh no!!!! not me … BUT the other guy” It’s always the other guy … realy????? Isn’t that the problem with child-rearing … controlling them????
Any one running for a political office is by their very nature an egocentric.
We humans; on becoming neurotic, set off on a very damaging path …against our very being … destroying our fundamental nature in the process. However, what will it take to get us out of this mind-set. As I feel you already know, I have my own idea. Albeit that my having the idea is one of my greatest defenses. I am forever attempting to “get out of the box” I got entrapped in … in early life.
I am forever attempting to see a way for us ‘neurotic’ humans to reverse this very debilitating disease. It’s so pervasive and damaging beyond anything that most outside this therapy is able to conceive. The reason is:- the very nature of neurosis … as I see it.
Jack
Miguel,
You mentioned about privatizing the management of public issues; but I think that often doesn’t tend to work out well. That’s because corporations are motivated purely by profit and not to do right by the public. Politicians who promote this idea are usually among the very same people who would profit by the venture, and are motivated to provide poor services to maximize their income.
Phil
Phil: Yeah!!!! capitalism and all the for profit organizations don’t work for the common wheal. Nor does the dictatorship of the proletariat. AND there’s no such thing IMO as the middle course.
Jack
Sorry I was meaning to say about if the earth is flat.
hi Leslie,
thanks smiley..
i did not get the mail with Sylvia’s comment for some reason, or did you refer to her comment a while ago?
but sometimes the WordPress comments arrive in a not very chronological order, depending of different servers maybe on their way…
struck me this morning of despite of any nice day before, I still tend to wake up with a doom and gloom feeling, not too bad but always making me feel i am not up to life, or the situation I am in, which seems an early feeling. can’t do anything about it, just hold on to remembering it wears off when I am up and about.
has to do with fear, being on my own and being in a world I do not want it to be the way it is, might have to do with having been put in some institute for several weeks at the age of two, among other things..
M
Margaret: It sounds exactly right; that it might be because of being put in an institution for several weeks at age two. Geeeeeeesusssss.
Jack
absolute fear. just from taking the car in for an oil change. dont really feel the fear in the pit of my stomach like i used to; i think the anti-depressant holds that in. but it is the waiting for 2 hours with no update; have they forgotten about me? i was here on time with an appointment. and my grandmother also had fear when dealing with car repairs. she was all alone husband-wise, since my grandfather died when my grandmother was in her 40’s. my poor alone grandmother, who left me alone all the time, even when she was 2 feet away from me. fear fear fear. and i see a cute girl in the lane next to me, her service adviser will get her car fixed up real quick because she is cute and smiling and i feel like an ugly hated toad with zero personality talking to my adviser. what more to say? driving home i am saying aloud, i feel horrible all the time, over and over. what the fuck, i am so tired of this. wake up half the time thinking about pets that died and how i was so careless with them. the horror will never go away. now i have to do the kid’s birthday. he in ohio with wife. i should have gotten him a present a week ago, now too late to get one there on time. i hate birthdays. i hate people, and nothing on earth will change that. fuck this shit.
M, how sweet your mom sounds!
Margaret, my comment yesterday said: “…I could feel the warmth of your visit with your mom. You and your brother must be happy for these good times together. You made my day.” And as Leslie said, I could picture your visit perfectly, and I could see your mom being attentive to the gentleman in the wheelchair.
Margaret, I too sometimes awake feeling emotionally dreadful. It is usually when I’ve been sick or feeling physically weak. It’s wears off when I stir around a little. I don’t know if it is connected to any early feeling or if it is just the body saying ‘I feel bad.’ Have had it on and off for a few years.
I wish that we could all wake up feeling optimistic and eager to meet the day like when we were children, if we were so lucky. Oh well.
S
yes, sylvia, rebuild my soul, rewire my brain and body. right. i wish. instead i got the 3 stooges inside of me, trying to fix a doorbell, with Moe saying, “we better get out the dynamite”
…so descriptive Otto. Gets the feeling across.
that is the exact chaos inside me The Three Stooges – They Stooge to Conga Part 1 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xzKJYGDj0Jo
Well they sure made a mess of things didn’t they.
thanks jack. it is very important to me. so deeply entwined with my mom even before getting out. there was such life and joy there. sadness too, as my dad died 6 months into her pregnancy well, nothing i can do with it. it ended so fast and so sudden. who would have thought? a slap in the face. or…a load of dynamite set free. but thanks. sweet of you to say.
Otto: wow! that’s so sad never having had a daddy. You had a very rough time of it … like may on this blog. BUT as I read you Otto; you are getting there. You are one I find that expresses yourself very clearly and succinctly on the blog.
That’s enough … just keep at it,, and I wish you all the very best .
Jack
I just reread what I had written yesterday about the afternoon with my mom.
I noticed I made an writing error when I mistakenly wrote as if I adressed the old gentleman in the wheelchair, it should have spelled ‘her’ and not ‘him’, when I said, to my mom, how sweet she had been and how much he must have appreciated it.
the way I wrote it yesterday seems as if I told him how he should feel, which was not the case, I did not say anything to him as I stood at a little distance.
and yes, Sylvia, it would be nice if we could still have that child’s enthusiasm every morning, and energy. I remember specially the walks we sometimes made, with mom or with dad and mom, and the pure thrill of running up and down ahead across the sandy path, like a little dog full of energy just for the sheer pleasure of running.
always liked outdoors physical stuff, a brother 3 years older did help and we were climbing trees, digging a lot of holes, building camps, or just strolling through the woods.
one memory standing out as well is him and me starting each at the far end of a large field full of dry grass and summer flowers, tigering towards each other trying to catch the other one by surprise. I remember the happiness of being in the warm dry grass, under a blue sky and a warm sun, huge flowers everywhere, birds singing. so glad we have been able to grow up with lots of space and nature around.
also our outings to the beach, I still dream about beaches and seasides in my pleasant dreams, sun and waves and just a nice feeling of things being ok..
loved to jump those tiny little waves with my mom, or to run into the water all splashing as fast as I could , ha, never cared about the cold then seemingly..
and just loving eating hard boiled eggs, bread and tomatoes as a pick nick. and the ride in our little old car to get there, all the anticipation about that first glimpse of the sea..
it is good to be able to value the good memories now..
M
Margaret, as we become more open, isn’t it nice to be able to remember the good times as well as the bad. I remember my brothers always doing something, being adventurous or doing crafts. And when I got to spend a weekend with my grandparents became quickly bored wanting to get back home to see what ‘the boys’ were doing.
I like the quote by the French poet Baudelaire in referring to creativity–“Genius is nothing more nor less than childhood recovered at will.”
Those are rich happy memories Margaret. What strikes me as I read them is how few I have like that, or none. I realize I never felt that comfortable with my parents, and could only lose myself in a feeling of belonging while playing with my 3 siblings closest to me in age, or later while working together doing chores on the farm. Then when they started developing their own lives, mine fell apart.
wow Otto, I did not know your dad died when your mom was 6 months pregnant.
that is so sad, what happened to him?
M
Linda, thank you very much for your reply. it means very much to me, it really does
M
exhausted. walked the dog around the lake now totally exhausted. walked with an injured back. injured the back lifting pc’s at work to get the extra overtime money so i can barely pay the bills. almost too exhausted to call the kid and say happy birthday. he was gardening in ohio, wife took phone to him because i couldnt get through on his phone. because he was gardening. she cooking bacon and tater tots. me 90 percent dead. they not having a ball but probably doing better than me.
kid thanked me for the money i sent so they could have a birthday dinner. he wanted to engage me or play with me or facetime and show me his garden. i said i would call later. exhausted. crawled back into bed remembering how he needed me to play with him when we were living in northridge when he was a young teenager. 1994. remembered how the wife had pushed me to move to the front house, which was twice the rent and i could barely afford the 600 dollars we were paying in the back house. she said because the wall was detached from the earthquake but i think it was more that she wanted to be as “good” as the lady who went to school with her, and was now moved out. northridge was a horrible period for us. i came home too exhausted from work every day, 2 hours each way on the bus. picked the wrong job at work when i got promoted. wrong job for a father who needed to give his kids something. wrong house to live in, leaving no money, as usual, for dad’s therapy. obviously making mistakes left and right and so the kid got into alcohol and drugs.
i forgot my point. not too exhausted to crawl out of bed to write down my misery. too dead to be happy with son and wife on a happy birthday. get me the fuck out of this nightmare, self.
the white tip reef shark has electroreceptors in his skin, which detects a millionth fraction of a Volt, so during the night he can track down every living creature by the minute electrical pulses of for example the pounding heart of a hiding fish..
during the day they cannot use that skill and their smell and hearing so they try to rest, as during the day they are harassed by a lot of other reef habitats. the most innocent action being using them and their rough skin by other fish to scratch themselves..
interesting planet we live on..
M
well i had something to say but screw it. maybe tomorrow.
Larry, how are you now doing with your new kind of freedom? how is the new camera doing its job?
M
That’s timely Margaret. I was feeling about ready to write on how I’ve been. I’ve reached a juncture of truths coalescing after 1 month of retirement. I had a couple of hours of crying this afternoon.
It’s strange to not have to make a living and just do whatever I want. There is almost no routine. And no purpose. Nothing holds me back except me. Nothing gives direction except me. How do I decide what to pursue? How do I do it all. What is the point? Passion is my only guide, whatever I can muster, wherever it takes me, while trying to overcome fear that holds me back.
Otherwise there is no meaning, life is hollow. After being quite busy the past weeks and having lots of social life, an emptiness grows and festers in me. I belong to no one; no one to me. I ache and cry. Emptiness is most of my life, until finally I find someone and experience groundedness, then she is taken away. Life has been good sometimes, but it has let me down big time, too. Why trust it? What’s the point of it, when it hurts more than not, when it crippled me when I was most vulnerable and innocent.
To find passion, however weak the flicker, and nurture it seems like the only meaning now. So instead of letting it wither which I could easily do, I let my expensive new camera and lens nurture my interest in photography and lead me to life. I go to events that I would normally hold back from out of shyness, and photograph, and run into friends there, and get likes when I post the photos on my Facebook page, and feel like I’m growing community and identity. I volunteer to participate in the production of the breeding bird atlas for the province, a five year study in which I accepted responsibility for a 10 square kilometer area where over the next two months for five years I will record species and numbers of breeding birds, something I’m interested in, and begin to meet people in the birding community, and vow to go to some of their events.
As I push forward on new horizons to who knows where, I descend into emptiness, that held me back and wasted so much of my life.
Larry… eloquently described! You are settling in well into your new life, and fast!
I understand exactly what you mean by the process of adjusting, how hard it is, yet rewarding… how the feeling of emptiness/belonging to no one pushes up..for me, this, and being rejected/abandoned/unwanted is a permanent scar, even in the face of tennis fun with friends, and family gatherings.
cried and yelled hard and long today and yesterday at the pi in the back room before barry’s Saturday group and while gretchen had her sunday group. fear and sorrow. triggered by sitting in the friday and Saturday groups, afraid and feeling like a creep, unable to speak until barry or gretchen asked me. At the end of the groups. Which probably worked out well, both times, since I was able to use that room the next day after the groups. I don’t know if I would be able to cry much in group, unless I did go off to the small room and be alone with the cradling arms of my mom-substitute (ipod music). What triggered me after the Friday group was the kind words of a lady who sometimes writes on this blog, and actually gretchen was extremely kind to ma, and actually everyone there was, even though I had to sit through the entire group in my fear and creepiness to get to that. But beatles/lennon/rock and roll music song on the radio when I got into the car after Friday group busted me wide open, so I was hoping to come early Saturday before barry’s group and use the room with that song, and sure enough, the feeling was still there. Why am I giving so much detail? I have nothing better to do, all alone as usual, except for sophie the dachshund. Eating my painkiller memorial day potato chips. Ah hah, I look on the internet and see that the moon is in cancer and I saw in the sky last night that the new moon has either happened or is about to happen. Totally irrelevant, of course. Maybe those gravitations or whatevers sometime lets my tears come out easier, or the feeling might be more pronounced. But totally irrelevant, since it is not science, or at least not rocket science. I also did not take my anti-depressant this morning, a suggestion that lp gave me years ago. Do I feel better after crying and yelling. I almost think I do, the day is beautiful with a soft breeze and I like it for a change. Of course, everywhere I look when I stop at the grocery store are women I can’t have. Which really is my mom and my great-aunt elsie. Aunt elsie was the subject of my crying Saturday. That sorrow was about being torn away from her and my somewhat pleasant life in Hollywood, ages around 4 or 5 to maybe 10. Torn away by my grandmother’s decision to move us to long beach for some reason. My aunt would walk me to school, since she managed the hotel right next to our house. She also walked her chihuahuas daily and took me with them sometimes, and once to some park where I caught some pollywogs or I could hang out in their room sometimes This is boring to write but it was good to see this in my head while crying. I also had my uncle ernie and my 3rd grade girlfriend diane who had miraculously latched onto me. All that was lost, in moving away to the beach, long scary freeways away from hollywood. long beach, where my brother and I were alone most of the time, although I made friends with the kids in the neighborhood, which totally saved my sanity. Anyway, Hollywood was where I had recovered from losing my mother years before, and the dark times with my mean uncle, and some blacked-out times that I can’t remember anything at all about, being cared for by my mom’s teenage sister (another aunt). I had recovered, still alone at lot in hollywood, but my aunt elsie took care of me and was kind to me; my grandma had to go to work 5 days a week, and the only good times she gave us was by taking us out to eat a lot. She tried but she was way broken, having lost her husband and my mom. Had enough? Just a little more, then I will go walk the dog at the park and look for women that I cannot have. The crying today was more about the fear of walking up the steps of the new school in long beach (GROUP!), the first day, to start my 4th grade class. I think I walked up those steps alone, not sure if my brother or grandmother came with me. Not sure if I cried this feeling to completion, as I don’t remember a lot of the details like walking into the class, alone and afraid. I do remember some of the scary faces of the teacher and kids. I cried remembering some of the streets I would be walking or biking through for the next 8 years and longer. Why they are part of the fear? They were empty, I was alone, my life was empty, as it is now. Well that is about the gist of it. Gretchen had told me that I could come into the group when I was done in the back room, and go in and out if I needed, but the door was closed, and even though I had thought of basking in the sheer femininity of that group and seeing some of the guys who I like, it did not take much to dissuade me; the closed door said feets, get a-going. And my back said, right, you picked up all those computers last week and killed me, you gonna sit in there again? No way. bye
I’m glad you are crying feelings and getting insights Otto.
not sure if i will be able to love my wife when she comes home. i have never really been able to love her, my shit, her shit too. anyway, a few songs i heard today give me a little hope. thanks bb for so much support over the years, music-wise and other.
I remember finding out about you
Every day, my mind is all around you
Looking out from my lonely room, day after day
Bring it home, baby, make it soon
I give my love to you
I remember holding you while you sleep
Every day, I feel the tears that you weep
Looking out of my lonely gloom, day after day
Bring it home, baby, make it soon
I give my love to you
Always inspiring Otto, what you write and feel and you are so easily getting into feelings now. You have gotten to so much. Thank you letting us be a part of your group.
touches me, but it is surely NOT something i do or say.
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
Tell me, what is my life without your love
Tell me, who am I without you, by my side
What I feel, I can’t say
But my love is there for you any time of day
But if it’s not love that you need
Then I’ll try my best to make everything succeed
you so nice sylvia. thanks.
watching war movies on tcm. their memorial day contribution i guess. a glowing commercial about sophia loren and her personality and movies. very touching to me for some reason. ok take dog to park one more time before tora tora tora
the previous war movie was humphey bogart romancing mary astor. in his own inimitable manner. both did a beautiful job of romance. i have too much to learn.
Otto, I’m always hearing what you say, am moved, and it all helps my own processing…I think that also your references to groups, group rooms, back room at the PI stir me up..how hard it can be to speak in group, the comparative ‘privacy’ of expressing feeling in a small room.. it helps me to be reminded of the groups, and Gretch and Barry.
You describe your experiences so well, and I’m sorry you are so overwhelmed and overloaded.
Margaret, time has moved on since your post about the time with your mum, but I smiled as I read it, as I could picture it all… I’m very glad your mum is more adjusted to her new living situation and more settled, giving you some warm moments and relief.
Jo,
yes, it is reassuring to know she has adjusted well and it makes me feel less compelled to calling her as often as I used to . now she is almost never in her room anyway, and when she is in the evening I don’t call her as she has already taken some medication then that makes her sleepy and a bit more confused.
but otherwise during the day she seems fine, active and full of energy, mischief and caring at the same time, smiley..
tomorrow another visit to her.
M
Jack
WE need to trust o believe in somebody (PEOPLE) and in something (IDEAS, THINGS) that is normal. We all do that. But when we are balanced, integrated we take all that believes as something relative. All that believes are tested every day. Those believes are not absolute truths. They are like Karl Popper said: tested. That is every day science. But when neurotic what somebody believes or things or even feel might take it as an absolute truth. That is the problem. Neurosis as Janov would might affect your total personality, affecting cognitive system : that is the way things, people and reality is perceived by individuals. We know that these ideas are very difficult to change.
Miguel: I agree we are all believing in many things and that’s not the problem, as I see it. The problem is believing in things that then dominate our lives … not always for our betterment of our lives.
An example of “believing” that I find legitimate,:- “I believe my friend XYZ is in New York right now”, OR I believe your package will arrive tomorrow. This low lever of belief in no way is going to dominate my life/lifestyle OR, put me in any kind of emotional or social bind.
It is in this respect that I say first know that believing is neither knowing or not-knowing. It’s tangential to both.
Jack
Jack and Phill
I agree with writer Carlos Alberto Montaner that conventional parties die. Voters do not want them. They assume that professional politicians are rent hunters and parties, an ignoble amalgam of generally incompetent people seeking fortunes based on corruption.
In that sense in France Macron has been elected not because he belongs to that or that political party, but because French have understood an honest and professional management of public services”
In other words, a manager to straighten out the heavy French bureaucracy. Macron has said
All public services related to citizens [hospitals, schools, courts of law, social services …] will be obliged to publish their results in terms of quality of service [waiting times, satisfaction surveys, etc.”
After all kinds of fascism and many ways of communism including anarchism have failed
Sovereignty lies in individuals. Constitutional texts and laws limit the authority of public servants and establish the need to respect human rights, the importance of the separation of powers, as Montesquieu wanted, and propose, as Locke believed, that the basic function of the State is Guarantee the right to life, liberty and property.
In my opinion, as Carlos Alberto Montaner says the parties will slowly become centers of initiatives that will be offered to voters as public management companies, more or less as in condominiums or vertical developments, neighbors periodically elect those who will administer collective ownership or hire Some company that takes care of it, just to supervise it.
It is collaboration between society and private enterprise to better manage areas of common goods in the face of the repeated failure of traditional parties.
If today many societies, weary of centuries of bad government, choose through tenders who will distribute water, create roads, ports, airports, schools, universities, or pension systems, it is just a step up and give another turn to the nut. Some of this is what has happened in France.
I hope I have answered your cuestions.
Miguel
Miguel: In order to stress my point; permit me to re-state what I’ve mentioned before:- The very essence of “Governing”; by definition is:- CONTROL
I discovered many years ago, that all forms of ‘control’ are inhibiting to life and being our normal natural selves … In other word actually prevent us from being ourselves; FULLY.
We actually don’t need to be “controlled” … BUT I am deeply aware of why mast are unable to accept just that. I do have a psychological reasoning for it, in that it was imbued upon us in child-hood by “controlling parents”. This we had to accept:- being controlled. To top it all off, we created the dichotomy of “good guys and bad guys”. That’s the myth … we think of ourselves as the good guy and those that don’t re-act they way we think they should; are the bad guys,
We’ve CREATED it all, and I would suggest that is:- the very essence of ‘neurosis’.
However, to rehabilitate the majority thinking, is a very hard task … especially universally. that is why I say “tweaking” the system won’t achieve the desired result … rather; maintains it. It’s all set in our minds before we had the ability to contemplate what was happening to us
Jack
jo, i like the privacy of the small room. i also like going there because i can’t be noisy in my house, too inhibiting with neighbors close by, hanging around in their driveways or on their roofs. although it has been a breakthrough for me this year in that i can now cry at home fairly easily, when music gets to me. also the back room at the pi puts me in a buildinfg that i pretty much know where it is allowable to feel and possibly some feeling people are lurking about. i went to my bunk at one of the retreats to cry when everyone else was in the other group room. it is helpful for me if i am not listening to someone speaking while i am still in the midst of a feeling also. i did not feel able to be especially loud at the retreat, what with all the civilians at that beautiful place, but i did rent a car to sit in if i needed to be loud, but i don’t think i ever did use the car for that purpose. the car was also good for isolating myself, and i was able to escape from having to do much with anyone that retreat, beyond my buddy. why am i saying this? i really don’t know what to say to anyone, i just felt i had to say something to you since you acknowledged me above. actually my grandmother would babble on like this and i can easily fall into that trap too. i am so frigging fearful all the time. not sure how well i will do with the crying at home once my wife comes back from ohio she has needs and i have my own needs, and these usually don’t mesh well together. anyway, hope you are doing well.
Babble is what I do too, and when I catch myself I feel bad for babbling…I was (affectionately) named ‘Joey the parrot’ at school..at least my friends and the kind head teacher could tolerate me, as opposed to my parents. I needed to be heard so badly…It seems your ability to write-babble helps the process, I may be wrong, but I’m glad you do.
I’m doing ok thanks Otto, in my generally isolated- yet social kinda way..distracting myself, constantly living in fear (though I only become aware of that sometimes) I’m able to allow myself to cry at times, and can also be loud since I bought a car last December. I discovered rage again.
I can’t wait to get to SoCal at the end of June, and am kicking myself for not booking for a longer trip..
I have posted a new page for comments – thanks Jo for reminding me! 🙂 Gretch
Earlier this morning, some granny who lives in our building asked my mother if I know to delete messages from her mobile phone, because memory is full and she cannot receive new ones. My mother called me, and asked me if I could come to the bench where my mother and that granny (our neighbour from building) were sitting in front of entrance of our building.
I came. Deleted all messages, to free memory. They said I know English so I can do that. Software was in Serbian, and they still didnt know.
And: I was their hero. They praised me. There were a lot of compliments. My mother said ecstaticly:”My tall and beautiful son! “. That granny neighbour said:” My dear help, my love”. They were honest, I felt it.
And now-interesting part:
After all that praising, I came at our appartment, I was alone, and at the moment I stepped in I begun to cry, I was not sure why, at that moment. And I cried, firstly quiet, and than I remembered how my mom and dad never praised in my childhood. Then I was louder in crying and sobbing, it took a while. My eyes was red, as I looked myself in the mirror, having agony grim[a]ce on the face..
I was relieved after all that crying and sobbing.
I used current situation in my life to get to the feeling, which is great!
Thanks for listening
Nenad from Serbia
Nenad: is a Serbian 26 year old guy, I met through Arthur Janov’s blog. He suffers ‘Touret Syndrome’ (ticks). He desperately wanted to do Primal therapy, but did not have the resources. I sent him an e-copy of my book “Feeling Therapy: Real Health: Yourself” He read it and one phrase in the book touched it all of for him “let it happen”. I am so impressed with this guy … so much so; I would love to bring him over here and get him a couple of session and take him to a retreat. I might have to go to Belgrade, his city, and come with him as he’s afraid of flying in case he gets an attack on the plane, and as he stated, his parents, even at this age, have such a grip over him.
We email very regularly and frequently. I find him so impressive to be able to do it all on his own; demonstrating to me, it’s possible.
Jack
P.S. He’s straight; so no sexual connotation there for me. He knows I am gay.
Jack, it is great that you are encouraging and helping Nenad. Nenad, it sounds like you are really open to your feelings and that it was a big relief to feel about what you missed and needed growing up. Thank you for sharing with us.
S
Sylvia,
Thanks for your reply.
I really miss primal community support, in fact, I have never had it, except lonley cowboy as Jack. I ride a horse toward fullfiling and feeling life alone. Jack helps me, support me, and encourage.
There is no primal community in Serbia, or Serbian websites, but there are few Arthurs books translated.
I am so open, and like that volulnerable, because I do not have defences system. I twich, do ticks, and I know and feel it is due to my horrible birth:cord around neck, anesthesia, 9hours lasted birth, was induced, and breech… I barely survived… And every simgle twich and tick is try of my body to get released from cord, and to stress off anaesthesia in order to live. My twiches are mostly with my head. And when in present I do tick, in fact, I am trying to get relaesed from cord aroun neck….
Many feeling hours I spent just lying down with no move-anaesthesia. In that period my legs are numb, sometimes also arms are numb, and I do not think-I just exist, with massive blockade of my system.
But… Against all odds I am alive(after birth they were not sure if I am alive, I didnt cry), and I am improving my self.
Thanks
Nenad
P. S. I am grateful to Jack
Hi Nenad,
It’s great to see you post on the blog. I’m amazed to see that anyone can make progress with this therapy starting on their own; and also that you get to such deep feelings.
I hope you will continue to share with us here what goes on with you.
I’m lacking a primal community where I live too and that is hard. Mostly the only way I can experience that is by going to a retreat or connecting with people by phone, skype, or internet.
Phil
Hi Phil,
I got it all what you said.
In lack of Primal community I am here now, and not be deprived for comments of Primal people, and feeling people.
Were you at this last retreat in Santa Barbara, Jack Waddington mentioned to me. How was it for you. What are your impressions? Tell me.
Nenad
Nenad, it is great that you are getting improvement. I think it helps to write on the blog. It somehow helps to risk acceptance and approval here. The bloggers here have been very welcoming for me and I have gained improvement from being a part of this group. I hope you come to feel you belong here too.
You have a lot of courage to go through what you have experienced from your birth.
S
Hi Sylvia,
Thanks for your reply and encouraging.
Will you tell me your life story, briefly? I dont know weather you speak about it or not.
For how many years you are in the therapy? Or months? What are your sympthoms? Are you talkative or quiet? Are your sympthom mostly bodily or mentally orientated? Are you introvert or extrovert? Tell me what bothers you?
I gave my self freedom to ask you openly all of this, if you dont want, you dont need to answer.
Thanks
Nenad
A tall order Nenad; I will try to give answers without revealing all the family secrets (just joking.)
I have not been in therapy. But for about 3 years I have been feeling. My defenses were very weak to begin with. I probably had PTSD (post-traumatic stress) from some health problems and taking care of my mom who had Alzheimer’s .
In answer to the question of introvert or extrovert, I would say I was a bit of both. I have a feeling that I’d like to hide when stressed, but I also have to speak out when things don’t seem fair. As a little kid I was very shy and nervous. I recall ballet and tap lessons to get over shyness of which I regularly vomited from in anticipation of being in front of people. I grew out of shyness somewhat and enjoyed speech and drama classes during grade school and high school.
My symptoms: I would say panic, nervousness. I have gotten over depression pretty much, and a pervasive feeling of gloom and doom.
It was very hard to feel without guidance. I found there was the pitfall ‘of feeling too much and not being able to turn it off. I think Jack had it right about not trying to feel, but if it comes up then not fighting it too much.
I’m in my mid 60’s and sometimes feel I haven’t grown up or am what I want to be yet. I see other women who have confidence that I aspire to.
On the other hand I am grateful for what I feel are real changes.
I must stop now and round up my cats before the neighbor dogs discover them in their yards.
I think, Nenad, that others here could answer your questions too, so that you can get to know us.
S
Sylvia: I’m obviously biased, but I was delighted that you responded to Nenad, and so far, you are the only one. As he stated there is little support he can get over there in Serbia, and so when I gave the site address for this blog, I was hoping that he’d get some needed support. So thanks Sylvia.
Jack
You’re welcome, Jack. There is a primal patient who has written a book on his birth trauma that I don’t know if you two know about. He is Jan Ake Johnsson and his book is called: “Evolutions in Reverse; Demystifying my Epilepsy.”
It seems like birth feelings are difficult to deal with. I would not advocate following anyone’s pattern of feeling. I just mention the book because it’s good to know others have suffered from 1st line traumas too.
S
Sylvia: I am not aware of Jan Ake Johnsson. I do know a guy with the last name of Johnson (if I remember rightly his first name is Ron) that edited my last book. He has commented on the Primal Support Group.
I too would also not advocate following anyone’s pattern of feeling, weather it’s 1st, 2nd or even 3rd line.
However, that is a different matter than explaining the different levels of feelings. We each do feelings in our own different ways and that I feel is worth contemplating by anyone entering this therapy, especially do-it-yourselfers.
If I get the chance from frantic packing to be shipped to the Netherlands, I will read the book. Should you know how I might get my hands on the book let me know; that would be very convenient for me. I have read all the other books I am aware of, that are about Primal Therapy.
Jack
Jack, I believe that Jan Johnsson was a patient of Art’s and Vivienne’s. His book is in kindle form and paperback on Amazon. I believe the digital is cheaper. I’ve already loaned my copy once, and that is all that is allowed. I think I have mentioned Gil Bates’ books (a former therapist) to you before where he describes the 3 levels of consciousness, also on kindle.
Have a safe and wonderful trip, Jack.
S
Sylvia: thanks for it all, including best wishes for my/our trip.
Jack
Hi Jack
Wanted to tell you that the farewell speech you made during the recent retreat, was very moving.
I’m still thinking about it, and described it, the best i could to my grumpy friends in Sydney.
What got to me is the tone and substance of your farewell. It was a final goodbye, at least that’s what I understood. I felt very sad listening to you.
Wish you the very best in your new environment, and hope it will be not too difficult to cope and fit-in.
Farewell you old Primal Dog.
Tom
Tom: Wow!!! your comment came as a great surprise, as did the applause after my farewell speach. I just thought I was saying a simple goodbye to everyone and everything and so I was sort of shocked at the response.
I should have said so, but was slow to pick-up on that and by the time I thought of it the group had moved on.
Thanks Tom for telling me your feelings about it. That made feel read good this morning as I/we frantically pack and get most of our personal stuff shipped over there.
I have only one problem and that is Jimbo has a very different idea of what is important to me that I do. ~X( Will any relationship be perfect???????? 😀
Jack
Wow, I really have been away too long. Got caught up in bunch of things and missed a lot, it seems. Jack, reading all the comments here I so regret missing your farewell speech. But I know you would have made a brilliant one! I wish you and Jimbo all the very best in your new home.
Karen
that should have been signed Erron. I’m using Dragon NaturallySpeaking, and it’s amazing the screw ups it makes. Amazingly, Karen is my wife’s name,, though I certainly spoke my own.
Erron
Karen: I didn’t feel there was that much to miss. I was surprised by the response. Still wondering why.
Meantime, ‘packing away the smoothing Iron’ and getting off to a new and strange place in a country whose language eludes me.
There is one consolation … out of reach of Trump-a-de-da-do. BUT am I “jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. who knows ??????????
Jack
As they say in Dutch: Veel geluk. Vaarwel.
Hi Sylvia, Gil Bates is no former therapist, in fact he is my current therapist here in Melbourne Australia. Best therapist/therapy I ever had.
Erron
Hi Sylvia,
I read your reply. Thanks.
Yes it would be great if others would a little bit introduce themselves to me, but on a feeling way, not conservative introductions.:) But, whatever introduction is, it is good as long as it is welcoming introduction. 🙂
I feel your spirit a little bit from this few replies. You sound like fighter, a you should be, and sensitive person too. Fighter-you fight for better yourself, god sake.If I may analyze you in sentence or two from previous replies and not to offend you, and trying to “help” you: what do you think and feel Why are you feel like a kid in comparation to other women your age? It is in my opinion, because you feel that kid, your young self, which is great, to be honest, scared and open like kid. It must be that people are pleasent in your company, because you cannot hurt them, kids rarely hurt others, kids are those who are hurted and suffer. I feel the same like you. We are open, and feel those feelings from childhood, like children, those feelings are often in present. That is my overanalyzng of you on basis of me, because we both have leaky gates in Janovs terminology.I am familiar with your feeling of doom and gloom, because it is mine feeling too, I feel it myself. Due to leaky gates terror from past shows its face in doom and gloom in present. It is joy and tragedy, both, to be so open and feeling-special kind, maybe, of persons we are 🙂 I already like, your mild personality who wishes me welcome. About deppresion, panic shyness-I got it, proccessed in my mind in relation what other things you did say. Dont be shy, I will never hurt you or insult or mock, at least I will not do that purposly with intention to hurt you Feel free:) Some years ago I was panicked too. Small places scared me, and there were time when I was in pure terror and anxiety. it all gone!!!
Nenad
Thank you for the kind words, Nenad.
It’s great that you see results from feeling. It’s nice that you gain from feeling old fears by giving in to them for a moment or for ever how long it takes so they stop attaching to the present.
I hope you find a home here and keep on writing about your feelings and insights and growing up experiences, as your comfort allows you to. Welcome to the club.
S
Hi Nenad,
welcome to the Primal Blog! Jack and I are great friends and he often “sits” for me. He has talked about you many times to me and so it is great to see you writing on the blog and sharing some of what goes on with you. I look forward to reading more about what you write. And I agree with Jack, it would be very good if you were able to make it to the Primal Institute someday to get some formal therapy.
Hi Chris P,
Thanks for warm welcoming.
Few times Jack mentioned me he sits for someone, so now,…Now I know who it is 🙂
Will you tell me your story in a few sentences?
I guess it is all about Love. Just one word which means a lot-Life, and quality of life, it should be felt, not just spoke about it. 🙂
Nenad
just saw an item in the news about someone that lived here for a while but went back to Iraq, Mossul, to save his son from IS.
as Mossul is now almost back in the hands of the joined forces against IS, the camera found the man sitting somewhere on the street, with his son, so they did manage to survive, but the man was exhausted and well, don’t know how to name it, but he cried and cried so hard, the most intense way of crying without censoring in any way, loud and so very very sad and in shock. I have no idea what he must have gone through or witnessed, to keep crying like that, on and on, in front of the camera, talking a few words, and crying and howling again, his son sitting by him, seemingly still very young, women around him trying to comfort him, he just letting it all out in long howling cries.
I felt and feel so sorry for him, while at the same time feeling it is quite something he can let it out without any censoring, camera, people, son right there, he had all my sympathy and I felt the need to write about him as he represents the pain all the craziness provokes.
I am glad though he did manage to find his son, and that eventually civil workers took care of them, and hopefully brought him to a safe environment where they can start building up their life again.
I also feel so much for that son, a boy still, sitting silently by his dad who just showed his sorrow and distress without holding back, in a way there is so much hope in there somehow for the two of them.
it really got to me.
M
What an extraordinarybond between them.
sent from my smartphone in Vancouver.
Hi Jack!
Definitely want to wish you & Jim all the best in your new home & homeland! Very courageous of you to re-locate so far away. It may take some time – but I hope you enjoy all you can there, and thankfully there is Skype!
Hi Nenad,
Welcome to the blog! My sister suffers from Tourette’s Syndrome with tics and vocal sounds.
It can & has been quite debilitating at times. However, with lots of self care, a therapist, exercise and massage she manages – and has a full, lovely life!
I suffered from obsessive/compulsiveness and owe my life to finding Primal Therapy and my husband B.
While waiting for a Dr.’s appt. recently I read an article by a young woman who had both Tourette’s & OCD. It described her ‘living hell’ and went on to explain briefly how both conditions are quite inter- related. Any comments from people in the know – therapists, Margaret??
L
Leslie: Where we are heading for, is in the neighborhood, or thereabouts, that Margret lives, but in another country. I suspect there is skyping and [h]e-mailing but no ‘she-mailing’ (sad!!!!)
I’ll miss the clear blue skies and sunshine and a couple of other things like some close friends, but will be in touch with a new cell phone we’re both hoping to get.
The MAJOR problem for me will be trying to get by with a very strange language that ‘doubles’ everything (Double Dutch) but Jimbo has that one and several others under his belt (where ever that is?). I’m not even that adept at my own (as my English teacher was for ever telling me.
I’ll still be frequenting this blog (unless I too get banned) which my daddy would have insisted on, had he known how to banish me. He sure tried. 🙂 🙂
Hope all’s well with you and B
Jack
Sorry: the emocons should have been 😦 😦
Jack
hello Jack; have been off for a variety of reasons. I take it you have changed country of residence…. my current email is dvddoodle99@gmail.com
all the best , dave hardy
Dave: No! I am still here in Trumpland; BUT am due to leave the last week in August for The Netherlands.
My email address will remain the same and I will still be on the blog as the mood takes me.
Take care Dave … will not your email address.
Jack
Hi Leslie,
Does your sister take medications? I do, and it helps me a lot, as excercise, healty food, calm life with good friends…and Feelings 🙂
I also have vocal and motor tics, which is as time go by with feelings are less and less
Nenad, and thanks for your reply 🙂
Hi Nenad,
There have been a few periods of time that my sister has had to take medications as she has been overwhelmed with the symptoms but usually not.
I am glad you have found medications that work for you and that you are able to feel and find relief. This will be beneficial in both the short and long term – as you well know!
L
hey, i think you on the wrong page. but i could be wrong.
I have just added a page 3 for comments – gretch
yes still miserable. every friggin minute
WHY so miserable still?
I know in my case more earlier hurts/pain comes up, as I live my life in the present, while I continue my therapy.
Otto,
Sylvia makes a good point.
the fact you feel so bad about some mistakes in the past shows how much you have changed and grown.
I can relate to feeling bad and guilty, or ashamed and frustrated about my own stupidity and neglectfulness and having been taken up by the wrong things in the past. I can relate to feeling bad for not having treated some animals in my life in the past as well as I could have.
that hurts, and I have told them how sorry I am about it and cried.
but I find it hard to believe you ever intentionally hurt your pets. not having the force to take better care is very different of hurting consciously.
don’t be too hard on yourself, you are not that person anymore and it was an overload of hurt and need that made you into who you were back then.
those pets would probably not hold it against you.
I am mostly sorry for having agreed to let our two dogs be put down while they were chronically ill indeed, but they still loved their life. we , my late husband and me, on the contrary, were largely taken up by our own unhealthy lifestyle back then, and gave in to some social pressure to have them put down while really we did not want to do so yet.
it feels like I betrayed them, and I feel he regretted as well and felt very bad about it afterwards.
and some horses I whipped for not jumping over some hurdles, it sounds probably ridiculous to some, but I feel very bad about that too. they were ‘horses for rent’, not fed properly most of the time, and I made their life worse. not always, as I worked in the stables for a while and gave them more food than the boss instructed..
my message is we do our best, I know you do, but the more sick we still are the poorer that best turns out.
on hindsight it is easier to see our mistakes.
tell those pets and kids how sorry you are, and in the present behave in the best way you can, that is what you can do.
and that is enough as that is the best you can do.
but put an effort in it, specially with fellow humans it might not be that easy.
with affection, Margaret
Jo,
it sounds like you are doing a lot.
and as Gretchen once told me, it is not easy to make friends. not close friends as it needs to be a good match and to happen at the right time and setting.
M