Personal Reflections on the Death of Dr Arthur Janov by Nick Barton

It is natural for the question “What if” to come to mind when reviewing the progress of one’s life. In this instance, I ask myself what would have happened to me if I had not read the Primal Scream, met Arthur Janov in London and subsequently landed in Los Angeles at the very beginning of 1973 to undergo Primal Therapy.
It is, of course, impossible to say. To paraphrase someone else who was speaking about the past, what might have been is another country.
So I must rely on knowing what I, a reserved, privately educated, middle class Englishman lacking a real direction in life who smoked and drank too much did draw from this unlikely adventure.
I was able to release myself from the straight jacket into which I had been sown by my family’s forever unexpressed grief at the death of my mother when I was two with its lifelong and myriad ramifications.
I was invited to train as a Primal Therapist and in so doing discovered a passion and hopefully some talent for helping others to realise themselves.
I gained a priceless clarity of insight into everyday human suffering; that kind of silent, corrosive misery that afflicts so many as a result of needs unrecognised, neglected or abused. I came to understand what makes people “tick”, as they say. I took what I learned into a rewarding career managing people to help others.
I credit Arthur Janov’s ideas as a key factor in enabling me to have the life I have enjoyed since the day I took up residence in a cockroach infested studio apartment behind a famous liquor store on Sunset Boulevard in January 1973.
I am grateful to him for four things in particular: recognising the reality of primal pain, understanding its lifelong effects, realising it could be felt consciously and that this could facilitate recovery and revitalisation.

Nick Barton

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1,320 Responses to Personal Reflections on the Death of Dr Arthur Janov by Nick Barton

  1. LesB says:

    “What if”?
    For me, my circumstances, I don’t even want to think about it.

  2. Phil says:

    So well written. True, it’s impossible to know what might have been, but I have to believe that I would have been so much worse off without the therapy. It was a very lucky thing that I got a hold of “The Primal Scream” at the time that I did and took a chance on what I read. Also lucky (and grateful) for the genius of the Art Janov and what he put into practice, along with everyone else involved.


  3. Margaret says:


  4. Jack Waddington says:

    Nick: Interesting to learn of your experiences doing the therapy and then becoming a therapist.

    I have gone through this day hardly able to grasp that Art has now gone … no more “Reflections on the Human Condition” If, as has been stated, he did complete another book, I will read that book avidly … knowing it was his last.

    I too feel I see how we humans ‘tick’. Best I can do is buddy … “sit” for others and know I have others that will sit for me.

    It was good to read you Nick, understanding you lead AA in the UK. Do you still practice Primal Therapy?


    • David Hardy says:

      An article Nick wrote some years back, Jack, he stated that his experience was that after about a year AA, alcohol addicts, needed to move on to Primal Therapy.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        David: I have no recollection of that post by Nick.

        Not sure if you’re saying he posted that after doing Primal therapy OR, after returning to England to run AA.

        Maybe you can clear that up for me.


        • David Hardy says:

          After returning to England and heading the AA program. I obviously read it in a Primal Newsletter. Perhaps the PI has it cross referenced.

  5. Erron says:

    Thanks Nick, great post and personal insight.

  6. nadja says:

    As always, concise and to the point Nick. Your four key parts sum up primal and could fit nicely on a bumper sticker, if this was still the 70’s 🙂
    But your phrase “Having gained a priceless insight into what makes humans tic” resonated the most with me…I often feel like I’m surrounded by prisoners (of pain) who have lost the ability to see the prison walls and bars.
    In terms of what would have happened without Janov and primal in my life? That part has always been crystal clear for me: I would be dead.
    So here is to Arthur Janov, whose work first saved my life, and then also set me free.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Nadia: Wow! that was a great comment you made about yourself.

      I take it you are still practicing therapy. I too, feel that it gave me the ability to see other people in their prison walls. Sad and often irritating, but yes understanding why.


    • David says:

      Make no mistake I believe Primal to be the one and only answer for significant mental illness; while I never became a superstar patient, without the PI I’d have had to kill myself. I was even convinced after Primal that faced with incurable painful disease I’d suicide, and am a proponent of humane assisted suicide on request. I however now suspect that I will ride out an even miserable dying. Don’t know why the change, and there have been many, many days I wake in pain and tears cursing that I’m still alive. More accurately, some days I don’t….. But, for 8 days I haven’t felt like that. Wish there was a benevolent super being, or, better still, such a thing as reincarnation, I’d like to be born, wanted, to a loving, financially affluent family. I’d like to be smart, handsome, athletic, popular, multi-talented, have friends, be loved, know how to be with others,

      • Sylvia says:

        David, I hope you feel better.

        • David Hardy says:

          Day 19 Sylvia, not jumping out of bed with a song in my heart, but not back in that ,’ dark,’ place, ….yet…. There’s a remedy we use in Homaeopathy, ‘Lycopodium,’ and in one application it’s effective for people who have finally stopped believing his own bullshit about ever doing something with his life and so stops planning.

    • David Hardy says:

      there are days Nadia I resent ever having, ‘ done,’ Primal, because I would be dead and the pain would be over. BUT, I believe it is the only valid therapy, if chatting with a friend doesn’t mend things.

  7. Linda Blythe says:

    Barry, this is SO sad!! When did Art die? He transformed my life–for the better, and I’m sure you could say that, too! Linda


  8. Otto Codingian says:

    i didn’t know. what a loss…

  9. Otto Codingian says:

    wow. we can feel.
    “Then one day in the late 1960s, as he recounted in “The Primal Scream,” came the experience that forever transformed his professional life: A patient told him about a performance artist he had seen in London, who took the stage wearing a diaper and proceeded to drink milk from a bottle; cry, “Mommy! Daddy!”; and, in cathartic culmination, retch.

    Inspired, Dr. Janov asked his patient to cry out for his own parents. The patient demurred at first but before long “was writhing on the floor,” calling for them, he wrote.

    Dr. Janov continued, “Finally, he released a piercing, deathlike scream that rattled the walls of my office,” adding: “All he could say afterward was: ‘I made it! I don’t know what, but I can feel!’ ”

    • Vicki says:

      Otto, here is a video of Art’s meeting with that perfomance artist:

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Vicki: I was very happy that you posted that video of Otis and Art discussing his experiences and the culmination of it being the forerunner to Art’s discovery. I watched the whole hour and a half of it. The only surprise was Art leaving for the last 20 minutes of it and not returning. I did notice that when he left France went after him no doubt to take care of him.


        • David says:

          Jack, I have seen this years ago. And noted how many times Art credits Ortiz with the manifest of Primal Therapy; he was first, the first primal and Art then ,” …. spent 15 years figuring it out.” When I was in therapy, 86-87 at Colby, I dreamed one night that the center burned, that I arrived for a session and a sign said CLOSED because of fire. The panic/fear I felt then I am feeling now. Like the end of hope, of the chance for safety

      • Jan Meichsner says:

        Who are these people? I recognize Dr. Janov, his wife, and the performance artist; but who are the others? Who is the woman to Franc’s left? Who is the man talking across from Dr. Janov, whose voice we hear but whose face we can’t see? And what’s to become of Primal Therapy now? Are new therapists being trained? Or is this a dying therapy as well?

        • Phil says:

          Hi Jan,
          Nice to see you here. I only watched about 5 minutes of this video as I didn’t find it that stimulating. I would have preferred to see a meeting with the original guy in the audience who was impressed by that performance, who Dr. Janov was treating, to see whatever might have become of him.
          I hope The Primal Center will carry on. In general is there a problem with a lack of primal therapists? Or is it a lack of people interested in undergoing the therapy.

          • Sylvia says:

            Hi Phil. At the 35 minute mark they talk about “Danny” who called ‘Mommy’. He was the boyfriend of the woman to France’s left and also the 3rd patient to have a primal at the practice. She states that “Danny” had a heart attack and has passed. She also stated that he did not continue with the therapy and found it frightening. Morey is the gal’s name and its stated that she is a therapist.
            The fellow who holds the longest conversation, Gus, I believe is shown in the video and I assume he is a life long primal friend as art says they all are there.
            Now see Phil–you just have to watch a while for the stimulating parts. Ha.

            • Sylvia says:

              Phil, I meant to say that Morey was the 3rd to have a primal. (Hope you don’t mind my teasing.)

              • Phil says:

                I guess I should give it another chance. What was the most interesting part for you?

                • Sylvia says:

                  Hi Phil, when I first saw this a few years ago I was impressed how they let us into their home, or backyard. I loved all the flowers and the dog and cat roaming about.
                  I liked the stories of how Ortiz grew up. What struck me most was how Art got choked up telling Ortiz how so many people have been helped by therapy just by the happenstance of what occurred with Danny at Ortiz’s play and therein the growth of primal therapy evolving at the Institute.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: I see it as:- the very need for such and long internship to become a therapist is the greatest problem. However, I do feel that it is a therapy that one can do on ones own and written my contribution in that direction. I would like to see other also write books or articles for self ‘Primaling’ with the proviso that all pitfalls and drawbacks are included and that the only motive be: TO FURTHER THE THERAPY/THEORY/NOTION. Not ones profit or ego.

            I got this from Art and am so grateful as many of us are, to him.

            Are there other ways??? I believe there are. I’m doing the best I can with the time I have left and this blog and my ability to write on it is yet another contribution in that direction (of course) IMO.


  10. Vicki says:

    I wrote a little bit about Art on the previous page yesterday, just remembering when I had met & seen him, but I didn’t think I had much else to say. For years, when I have thought about him, I mostly have remembered my anger at things he said or did that I didn’t like, that disillusioned me about him, and made me doubt the depth of his own “cure” of himself. I still feel that, in spite of also believing that Primal Therapy is the best method we’ve got for healing ourselves.

    Last night, I couldn’t settle down and go to sleep, I was just thinking about “everything” until 3 am. So at 7 am, I stumbled through getting ready for work, but finally saw that I really needed more sleep first. I sent an email to my coworkers: “Sorry, but I will be late today. Someone I know died yesterday, and I had a rough night with little sleep.” After somewhat more sleep, I read my boss’ reply, “I’m very sorry Vicki. Please take all the time you need.” I started crying at that, and then was able to cry more about how I felt about Art’s death, that it’s very sad, and a forever loss, realizing I had wanted him to be like the dad I never had, and better than he was. I don’t think I could have had that feeling, if not for my boss’ kind words.

    • Erron says:

      Vicki, I have also been having feelings around Art’s death. For me, it’s all about being left alone now, combined with the terror of my own demise, since the greatest influence on my life for the past 50 years has died and I feel as though something in me died with him. Perhaps it was hope, I’m not sure and I am probably going to have a lot more feelings around it.

      When someone who was a big part of my life leaves, it just doesn’t feel right. It’s like some notable feature in the landscape just dropped off the map; it shouldn’t happen, it should still be there.

  11. nadja says:

    Loved reading everyone’s reactions.
    I think it’s fitting and amazing that he died in his sleep at 93! It strikes me as about as “primal man” as you can get in this life. Wouldn’t we all like to go like that? No struggle, no torturous progression of disease, just the logical next step of life. Then again, I may have this all wrong and he may have had horrendous health problems and suffered greatly and just got lucky in those final moments. Still, I like how peaceful it sounds.

  12. nadja says:

    One final thought. It’s been on my calendar for years to try and interview him for my LA Family Therapy blog and I just kept putting it off and allowing everyday business to keep me distracted. In the back of my mind I kept thinking that I really need to make this happen, otherwise he’ll just die on me. Once again, I’m reminded of life’s biggest lesson: it’s short and never put anything that is dear to you off.

  13. Phil says:

    The New York Times has a fairly long write up in the obituary section today:

    I didn’t see anything in the LA Times, where I might have expected it. It does feel like the end of an era or something, and sad. I only saw Art Janov twice that I remember, in NY, and didn’t actually get to meet him. One time was in group, and group was packed that day. The other time was when he came to announce that the NY office was closing, and that wasn’t a pleasant occasion.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Phil, I just came across this too. Glad you could post it. Seems he said once that the NY times would not publish his findings about birth, that they thought it was nonsense. But so much has been validated with scientific studies about how the baby is affected at birth and before, during pregnancy.
      What a nice piece they wrote here.

  14. Phil says:

    I saw somewhere that he had a stroke. That would explain why his blog was silent for months. It may not have been simply dying in his sleep.


    • nadja geipert says:

      Thanks for bursting my bubble Phil ….I mean clarifying …HA!

    • secretariat7 says:

      Maybe he had a stroke because of the last presidential election…and decided he was “done” for this lifetime. May he be resting peacefully now.

      • David Hardy says:

        I wonder what Dr. Janov’s response would be to the RIP concept expressed frequently on here, so lovingly. In his personal belief system was there a Santa and a North Pole to move on to or was dead just dead ? Or was religion just one more opiate, a hanger on from primitive times ??

        • Jack Waddington says:

          David: I too wrote “RIP” in regards to Art’s death, then had a second thought about it after posting.

          It came as a gesture off the top of my head. I think that “peace”, as that word is generally meant to mean is somewhat misused in this context, but to use a short phrase to convey that gesture doesn’t, as far as I know, exist.

          So I plead guilty. I feel Art would have refrained from that acronym.

  15. secretariat7 says:

    I would be dead no doubt had I not found this therapy. I was lucky to go at age 19–20. The toolbox of feeling consciously has saved me multiple times.
    Thank you Nick, for your message and being a great part of this community. It’s true that Art has left an indelible mark up on humanity, and in us all, through our lives.

  16. Paul Garland says:

    I haven’t posted on here before. I have been on Art’s blog for years though. I was numb at first, to hear of his death. A defense inside me from boarding school days no doubt. . But then it began to strike me and later the tears flowed. Something about deep feelings makes us all related, so I feel I have lost a family member. Possibly that’s the most important thing about the whole subject. That deep feelings give us permission to be related to each other. It underpins our relations in ways which cannot easily be undermined. I consider myself so lucky to have been able to benefit from his insights and writings. I am aware he was a contentious man too. But I liked that about him. There’s no deep friendship without a bit of friction.
    All best to you all,
    Paul G.

  17. Cuthbert says:

    Very sad news today. 😦 But he was lucky to live such a long life.
    I remember him in group in 1979 – early 1980’s as a good person.
    If I had not seen the “Primal Scream” by coincidence in a bookstore and read it immediately, I might not be here today either. RIP Art

  18. Paul, You are more than welcome on the blog as is anyone else who would like to comment. It feels comforting to talk to others who also might be grieving. Gretchen

  19. Jerry Anderson says:

    I thank you for making this available to everyone, to have some place to come together, to express, grief, as well as thanks for everything Dr. Janov gave to me and to the world. As so many others I came to know of Primal Therapy, from John Lennon’s interview in Rolling Stone.

    Though it took a while to get to Los Angeles, my life was irrevocably changed, from the day I started therapy. Emotionally I am unrecognizable, even to my former self.

    Some things are inexpressible by words alone. This I know well. Thank you Art, for everything. RIP.

    Jerry Anderson

  20. Joe Mastro says:

    I’m not particularly saddened by the death of Dr. Janov, but I am thankful to the man. Nick’s article made alot of sense to me. Primal Therapy has helped me oh so very much to become a happier person and find meaning in my once bleak and miserable life. . .
    . Thanks Dr. Janov for your work!!

  21. Joe Mastro says:

    I am saddened by Dr. Janov’s death, actually, but in light of the terrible deaths in Las Vegas and also one of my idols, Tom Petty passed away surprisingly it was too much to feel. . . Sad, sad, sad. . but I’m also very happy for Dr. Janov. He did great things and helped many. . .

    • Vicki says:

      Joe, I’m also quite sad about Tom Petty’s being gone. Such a surprise. He was just so good. I feel lucky I got to see him a long time ago in concert, at the Universal Amphitheatre. Dion opened the show, in his “New York Streets” comeback, and later joined Petty on stage, and between them both, it was one of the best concerts I’ve ever seen. I expected him to be around for many years to come, I’m sure many feel that way.

  22. Otto Codingian says:

    if that dog in the picture is still alive, i feel bad for him. and of course his family, gretchen, vivian, i don’t know anyone else who knew him. yes rip. what a long strange trip with pt.

  23. Otto Codingian says:

    i don’t know if bb knew art, if you did, my condolences too.

  24. Otto Codingian says:

    vicki i am glad your boss was kind to you. i have never been able to watch more than 5 minutes of the video you mentioned above. needs more donkeys and cats and dogs licking each other. and when i see a croissant, i start craving butter. but truly remarkable that pt came about via art seeing the significance of what took place in front of him. right!

  25. Otto Codingian says:

    i only met nick once, at some retreat long ago (and never met art). nick was kind to me and urged me to keep the momentum going after the retreat. which of course, i didn’t. i did not know at the time that his mom had died when he was very young, like mine. i am still crying about that life-destroying loss, , and those tears will never end. ok, back to the donkeys. said enuf.

  26. Verner says:

    I read the Primal Scream when I was a teenager back in the mountains of Switzerland, without any real possibility to come to LA. Yet the promise I saw in his words gave me the strength to do the impossible. I dare not to think of the alternative. Art’s writings saved my life. I feel compelled to carry his message forward into the world.

  27. Jo says:

    I am a bit numb at the moment, as the effect of various issues have stacked up. What I know for sure is that reading Art Janov’s book, “The Feeling Child” had a big impact on me, read while my children were small, and I subsequently read his other books. This was the first time psychology writings felt real to me.
    Although years later when I entered Primal therapy, I was shocked that Art and Vivian now ran two different clinics, so I never met Art. However, It became clear that the roots of Janov’s work were practiced at the current Primal Institute, and I am immensely grateful to have taken that first scarey exciting giant step.
    A heartfelt thank you to all fellow sufferers and adventurers in the Primal community.

  28. Miguel says:

    One last consideration. Arthur Janov and his therapy saved my life. I arrived in 1979 at the P. Institute then at W. Hollyood on Almond Drive. I risked everything for going there, my professional future. My family told me that I was crazy for going there, for them they were a sect.

    I went to England to learn English. Someone told me about Summerhill and A.S Neill. I continued reading psychology books and being there volunteering at an epileptic center at Chalfont Center for Epileptics in Chalfont ST. Peter, I found the book Primal Revolution in Slaugh near London. I understood that though other therapeutic approaches were interesting the best was Primal therapy. On this I had reflected a lot in my university years The most similar that I found was the psychoanalysis books of Wilhelm Reich and Neill.

    I followed Janov also in several retreats in Switzerland and also in his Parisian adventure. I expected my therapy would work faster. For me it had been slow but it had worked. I had been very constant. In my recovery the help had had from the Primal Institute and its director Barry have been important, crucial. The therapeutic relationship it is extremely important. That is what I want to say if you are constant and try you will succeed in this therapy. No matter what

    The contributions of Vivian,Barry and Gretchen have also been important to the improvement and refinement of the practice of therapy and of course retreats made by the Primal Institute.

    Nick has also been fundamental to me and I greatly appreciate his contributions, his writings to the development and evolution of the practice of primal therapy, theory is simple and elegant, but practice is more complicated. I also think Nadja is doing an impressive job in making the therapeutic practice more affordable and her insights and intuitions are great with her LA Family Therapy.

    Finally I studied psychology, did a master in family therapy and have my own practice.



    • Jack Waddington says:

      Miguel: Your story is very interesting and I didn’t know it before. I sure admire your ability to speak and write good English and though I lived 10 years in Spain, Ibiza never did get to do anymore than ‘tienda’ Spanish … but then I’m English!!!!!


  29. Phil says:

    Your story is very interesting. If only I could learn Spanish the way you learned English that would solve some of my problems.
    I like what you wrote here and agree. Since returning five years ago to the Primal Institute and attending retreats after many years, I’ve been fascinated and impressed with the changes in the therapy I noticed. I think you’re right that it’s been refined and improved.

  30. GinaJ says:

    Forever grateful for the Primal Institute and the gift of being a changed person from the inside. My husband and his mother had been through primal and he suggested before we get married that I go through a primal intensive therapy before we get married to get rid of all my baggage. Baggage I thought? Okay well if my husband thinks I should then okay. I had no idea the Priceless gift that my husband gave me but getting me into Primal therapy. I remember the first week two and a half hours a day every day for five days in a row I told my therapist my entire life story and every horrible thing that ever happened to me then I sat there in silence because I ran out of things to say. Now what, I asked? I’ve told you everything. My therapist told me but sitting in silence would bring up old memories. After 45 minutes I was getting pretty frustrated thinking that I was wasting my money and then it happened. The silence was eerie and memories that I had suppress so deeply started pouring out along with my tears. It felt so good to release things I didn’t even know that I had a memory of. All I can say at this point was every penny I’ve ever spent on Primal therapy has been worth it. My husband and I have been through 15 years together with two beautiful children and still happily married and there’s no way I could have had the beautiful life that I have now without Primal therapy and my therapist. I have been to many other therapist before and I always felt like my 50 minutes was up and I still had so much more to say right in the middle of a painful moment the therapist said well time is up I’ll see you next week! But not primal. My Primal therapist allowed me to emote without interruption. Primal therapy allowed me to have tools to deal with my problems when I wasn’t with my therapist. So many people don’t want to remember the pain they went through and they definitely don’t want to tell somebody all they’re painful stories or situations but trust me when you get the paint out of your head and your heart and your body in the presence of a primal therapist believe me the Deep pain will go away. Don’t get me wrong we all have problems and we always will. We are only human. But with all the hours of Primal therapy that I’ve received I now know how to handle any situation that comes my way. Yes I do still have pain from those past memories but now the pain just sits on the surface it’s not deep and it does not torment me anymore. Trust me try Primal therapy when youve completed an intensive you will feel like you just won the lottery! No joke! To mr. Arthur janov may God bless you in heaven and thank you for the healing that you’ve given to me through your wonderful works of Primal therapy.

    • Margaret says:

      I liked your comment.
      for me too at some point in my intensive, when at first i did not have a clue, unexpectedly something shifted and a thick veil I did not even know existed tore up and revealed my little me to me once more, my almost forgotten best friend, that whole open innocent me I once was.
      it felt like some kind of euforia afterwards, I clearly remember sitting at the ocean in awe and astonishment, feeling incredulous of that thrill and sheer hapiness of finding back something, someone I had even forgotten I had (almost)lost, my complete and true self as a four year old.
      I still feel moved thinking back of the sheer wonder of that moment.
      the sea, the setting sun, it all felt somehow like I had made it back home to myself.
      which does not mean that afterwards I still had to do many years of hard work on myself in and out of therapy to sort out and clean up all the garbage that stil remained.
      but it was such a great help that right from that moment it was cristal clear this felt completely right and I only regretted having postponed coming to therapy for so many many wasted years…

      as you said, primal therapy hands us the tools with which we can continue helping ourselves, while of course help from others can be more than welcome as well.
      thanks for sharing your story here,

  31. Margaret says:

    I have been insecure about what to write.
    although coming to primal therapy was the best decision I ever made, I have never met Arthur Janov so can’t feel personal grieve about him.
    what is on my mind though and what I truely care about, is the future of the primal practice and theory.
    I have watched several videotaped instruction sessions from the Primal training center, and liked Art’s occasional comments on the background about primal therapy being basically simple, but I must also say I personally feel not so keen on what I saw from his wife’s Francess’ approach, as for me it seems too controlling and theoretically rigid. but of course that is only my personal impression based on limited information. if I’d see other stuff I might really like it, who knows.
    my own experience is entirely with the Primal Institute since december ’96, which I am deeply grateful for as it changed my life so much for the better.
    my point being is that it seems now even more important that all the accumulated experience and knowledge from people like Nick Barton and Barry and Gretchen, and which seems to have a different more organic style than that of the training center, can be transferred and passed on in hopefully some publications at some point.
    primal practice is so deeply and basically life changing in so many positive ways that it would be a tremendous loss if that accumulated knowledge would be lost to the coming generations.
    it would be so interesting to explore if there are indeed differences in the approaches of the two primal main centers, and which they are, and what the pros and cons might be to learn even more and more importantly to spread the knowledge to a larger public, including the professional field.
    primal therapy, for me represented by Barry, brought me back in tune with the little girl in me that was nearly forgotten and it was a precious gift to find her again. once that breakthrough had happened during my three weeks intensive, all my doubts about that big and expensive decision to cross the ocean for therapy disappeared and I felt so very glad to be ‘coming home’, on the right track into my true self.
    Margaret Meys

    • Phil: Did you pick up the info about Dr. Janov’s stroke from a source other than the Washington Post? I’m wondering if he suffered a second stroke later on, since France mentioned there was a respiratory arrest after a stroke. Anybody under respiratory arrest wouldn’t be alive for months, which leads me to wonder about multiple unfortunate episodes.
      This topic is semi-important to me because whenever I read Janov’s later writings deeply describing the brain and its anatomy, I really had this strong feeling of, “Art, should you be going in this direction? Sounds dangerous to me.” I almost felt as though I was going to suffer an imminent brain aneurysm myself during those times I read such material. A strong feeling of blood vessels & capillaries dangerously constricting in my own brain.
      I’m sure he felt he had to do it to forward the Primal cause to the greater scientific community…..but, man, I don’t know….it really felt counterproductive to me, personally for some reason, somewhat frightening and dangerous.
      Note i am only discussing the times when Art was a brain anatomy junkie in his writings. A lot of his other writings I could more easily approach without significant feelings of brain danger or discomfort.

      • I probably should add that I could still tolerate things when he went into his brain mapping for a while, but some of his more detailed and intricate written descriptions of deep brain anatomy really left me feeling acutely uncomfortable. I’m fine with it if people want to chalk this up to my own queasiness and sensitivity or perhaps an unresolved feeling, but it really felt dangerous to me and I hope it didn’t ultimately contribute to his stroke.

      • Phil says:

        For people in their 90’s or younger, I think strokes are a very common cause of death.
        Art Janov did exceptionally well making it to age 93, in good shape with his thinking abilities intact to the end, or close to it.
        His writings on brain anatomy and physiology never gave me any such feelings as you describe, but I studied medical subjects in college, including dissections,and other gruesome things laid out or in containers from animals or human subjects. If we don’t cut up, think, talk, and write about the human brain we will limit ourselves and never learn about all it’s intricacies, don’t you think?


    • Tony Riley says:

      I thought the Washington Post write-up didn’t do his writing justice. The opposite in fact. I don’t think the writer could have been aware of his more recent books, which are very much science-oriented (e.g. Life Before Birth). Or seminal publication in the neuroscience research journal ANS. And others. He was badly served by UCLA who have lost important research they did with him. So I hope he gets much better quality write-ups than this one.
      His biographer is a respected LA Times journalist, so a better press should happen.

      I had a lot of contact with Art in 2011-2012, researching a film about his work when I was a patient at The Primal Center. He was always so kind, sometimes pushing me :-), and I’ll miss him.

  32. Margaret says:

    wow Phil, I was reading the New york Times obituary and then looking at some of the interviews with Art and his wife.
    the first was what one could expect, but in the French one, wow, they show an extract of a session in which someone goes into a child’s frenzy crying and screaming and then ‘I hate you’, too ‘is that bad, not bad etc.’, it made tears roll over my face and I am still kind of trembling inside.
    one hell of a strong primal, but maybe too strong and without introduction for most spectators out of the primal experience I fear.
    but certainly worth looking at for whoever needs a trigger…

    too bad the article quotes ‘professional opinions’ comparing PT with cristal therapy and past and future life therapies and aliens etc.
    will look at more of the links tomorrow, have had my sudden strong trigger for today, making me resonate still…
    all that force and pain and fear and pressure, wow wow wow, phew…

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, speaking of watching a primal when you aren’t really prepared for such strong feeling, as most who never knew about primal would be– I remember with excited anticipation of watching a program that said Art Janov was to be on. It was in the mid 70’s on the Mike Douglas show. Art showed a film with a guy on the floor writhing in pain. The guy had to be the ‘man of the house’ since he was 9 yrs. old when his father had died. He cried from all the responsibility that was thrust upon him and his inability to cope with it. It was earth-shaking. Mike Douglas asked if the fellow knew he was being filmed and Art said ‘yes.’ I was pretty disturbed watching the show and had a nightmare from it. I knew it was something that was very powerful.

  33. Renee S. says:

    He wasn’t supposed to die just yet. At least not in my mind. I always had this idea that he would live to be at least 100, if not longer. Wasn’t he having primals well into his 80s? Didn’t primal therapy change his epigenetics? Extend his telomeres? Maybe that did happen. 93 years is a long time to be alive. I really thought he would live a little longer than long because he was Arthur Janov. Magical thinking. I read the Primal Scream when I was 14 or 15. A depressed, very overweight, self-harming, self-loathing, sometimes suicidal teenager. It was a ray of light in an otherwise dark world. I must’ve read the little chapter on overeating hundreds of times. Finally, I felt someone understood me. I was not alone anymore. Finally, I had some hope. One day I would go to the Primal Institute in Los Angeles, California. One day I would get the help I needed. Primal therapy saved my life and changed my life. I work now with youth who have addiction issues. Sometimes I give presentations to teachers, parents, and mental health professionals. I often start my presentations with this video: It never fails to move my audience. Or me. I showed it a couple of days ago to a group of professionals. I had to hold back tears. Tears of both gladness and sadness. Glad that you gave us all you did and that your ideas live on and continue to inspire. But so sad that you are no longer here.

    • Phil says:

      What you wrote here about Art Janov moved me; you have really expressed it so well and reminded me of when I was considering primal therapy after reading “The Primal Scream”.
      I was feeling very desperate, hopeless, and suicidal. The book made so much sense to me but made me wonder why I had never heard about it before, if the therapy was so uniquely powerful. So I had doubts because of that and had to endlessly reread the book and compare it to other methods and theories in other books from the library before coming to a decision. Janov put it all down in such a logical way, with amazing case histories, that made it extremely convincing. I liked his tone, he was very sure of himself, he had no doubts about the truth of his findings and theory. It wasn’t something he cooked up, it came from the experiences of his patients. That’s the exact tone I would expect from someone who has made a very important discovery. If you’ve got the goods why bother with being modest and diplomatic. It all made sense to me.
      His theory seemed to readily explain all my problems and symptoms in light of what I knew about my childhood history, even if I was quite disconnected from it.
      Of course the therapy didn’t totally transform me in the short period of time that I expected. Far from it. I came to realize the difficulty of the process and that I am more messed up than I ever imagined. But the therapy moved me from the very stuck place I was in at the time I read the book. It started me feeling, a wonderful gift, for which I am very thankful and Art Janov will always live on in my memory.

  34. Larry says:

    I owe him my life. Finally someone was there. Finally someone listened. Finally someone was a real human being who cared and understood. I saw him only once for about 20 minutes in big group in 1983. His dying leaves a bigger hole in my psyche than I expected. I cry and feel deeply the loss, sink deeper into the early aloneness…that wasn’t my fault, that pervaded and poisoned my life until therapy. I cry how closely I came to not stumbling upon the Primal Scream, how fortunate that I did, how good luck got me to LA and primal therapy. I’m grateful for the life I have now. I wanted him to outlive me, but he was only human. I’m sad that he’s gone. I feel more naked and alone that he is gone. I feel the emptiness that as a kid I couldn’t face. I hope his ideas live on, to help others like me. I shudder at the thought of being trapped in all that pain for all of one’s (probably short) life.

  35. I have been so moved by all that has been written here. Hearing your thoughts on Art and all that he has contributed and your own experiences in therapy has meant a great deal. I am grateful to Nick for writing a blog post when I could not. I’m also so glad that so many could come to this site to discuss their feelings and their grief. I believe it does help. In addition the letters and emails that Barry and I have received have been so touching. So many have reached out, patients from the earliest days to those who are at the beginning of their journey. I have thought about Art a great deal the last few days and there are just so many memories. I have thought of my own therapy, my experiences training to be a therapist and the many years of personal memories. Years and years of laughing and crying. My experience as a trainee was nothing but positive. I always felt encouraged to say what I felt or to disagree if I did. Therapy was evolving and always will. Every new patient taught me something then and now. All of that was encouraged and supported. A rare experience. As the days go by I have been asked how I am feeling, what are my thoughts? I answer the same way each time. I am not thinking so much about the Art I was trained by but about the Art I knew as a child. For me, as a child, Art and Viv were a revelation. So unique and unusual, so unlike my own parents. I always remember running into their home after being out all day with their daughter Ellen. Likely we were dressed in some wild get up and I specifically remember we were wearing hats, probably wacky hats! Art was sitting in the living room and asked us what shenanigans we had been up to as we rushed past him. I remember we stopped and that I was holding my breathe because the answer to that question would have gone over like a lead balloon at my own home. In any case we answered honestly and said ” we were at the protest against the Vietnam Nam war. Don’t worry though we made a run for it when the police arrived so luckily we avoided arrest. Oh and guess what there were news crews there filming us! !” . It did seem like a long silence followed our announcement but finally Art said” it sounds like you both had quite a productive day!” . Well, you could have knocked mr over with a feather. I remember the beginnings of Primal and listening to discussions about the book he was writing and how even though I was a child my questions were answered as though they had value. I remember Arts excitement about Primal and all that was unfolding. Who would have thought that years later I would be asking to go through this therapy myself. I remember Vivian driving Ellen and I somewhere and I was quite young . I was telling Ellen about a friend who had lied to me. Vivian suddenly spoke up and while looking at me in her rear view mirror she said ” that must have been so hurtful” . A little thing perhaps but not to me. So many years have passed and I still think of these moments with the Janov’s. So that is what I think of most now and I am so grateful. RIP Art.
    Sent from my iPad

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks for some early stuff, Gretchen. I’ll be happy to read more of that anytime you want to write it.

    • Jerry Anderson says:

      Thanks Gretchen, moments like that are so precious to have, and they can become revelations in time, when juxtaposed to their opposite unfeeling events that for some of us seem endless.

    • David says:

      what a wonderful, touching, sharing Gretchen. Just read the news and am deeply saddened though I never knew Dr. Janov. Beyond logical explanation, tears, and the paralyzing fear that i am dying, I will die, that death is the only safe place. I would prefer to have written this privately as I detest drama.
      Arthur’s legacy should have been that Primal was a mainstream offering in every clinic.

  36. Otto Codingian says:

    always touching to hear you talk about your life as a child, gretchen. thanks.

  37. Otto Codingian says:

    i was in the navy in spain when some of my co-workers showed me the book, and suddenly all made sense. it took me a long while to get to therapy after that. but i did get there.

  38. Otto Codingian says:

    “Patients, who might pay thousands of dollars, would scream or shout as their supposedly pent-up traumas were revealed.” it always bothers me that the crying-healing of pt is so non-mentioned when accounts are given of this therapy. i don’t know how it was in the early days of therapy, but when i started and thereafter, there were screams and shouts, but i remember the crying in the big groups on colby, and hearing other people cry made it possible for me to also cry.

    • Vicki says:

      Yes, Otto, I found the obits disgustingly dismissive and disbelieving of whatever quotes about actual Primal Therapy were made. Far more crying happens than screaming or shouting.

      • David says:

        I have become either weak or cowardly in my elder years, Otto , I rarely bother explaining, let alone defend PT anymore. The attempts to stifle PT through misinformation have been frighteningly effective. A doc,(MD,) friend of mine called PT an atheistic cult; I retorted that christianity/godianity is a cult, (IMHO,) and that dissolved our obviously non-friendship. Ego, Divine AMA control, bank accounts, achieving actual results, all of the above ??? whatever, PT was a huge threat. The effort to kill the therapy was as intensive as the efforts to politically emasculate a Black President.

        • Paul Garland says:


          well said.
          But worse still, it seems the human condition of repression/neurosis is one where the ‘disease’ kills it’s cure in any and everyone quite effectively without the help of massive big pharma, big government or big corps. It’s also quite easy to see ‘cure killing disease’ in everyone else but very difficult to see it in oneself.
          Stranger still is that various people have been saying this for millennia before the discovery of Primal pain. It is as if ‘All Roads Eventually Lead To Pain’ but Primal is by far the shortest route.

          Paul G.

  39. Otto Codingian says:

    ginaj, that about says it all “After 45 minutes I was getting pretty frustrated thinking that I was wasting my money and then it happened. The silence was eerie and memories that I had suppress so deeply started pouring out along with my tears. It felt so good to release things I didn’t even know that I had a memory of.”

  40. Otto Codingian says:

    what gabor m said about kindness being a way to be with your pain is true. also, i knew that music was a good route to feeling, as i listened to the same beach boys song every time i would drive up to the p.i. for friday big group. barry b. gave me the encouragement to follow this path because i felt it was a little weird listening to music to get to the feelings. but some of us creatures don’t feel weird about it at all. Donkey Loves Sound of Violin

  41. Otto Codingian says:

    sorry just one more tearjerker and i will shut up. This Blind Cow Was Crying Every Night. When I Found Out Why, It Broke My Heart

  42. Otto Codingian says:

    ok sorry sorry, one last thing. the humor in the groups at the p.i.—priceless.

  43. Phil: No one is disputing that 93 years is an exceptionally long life for an American male in the conventional sense. Shortly after Sylvia announced Art’s death in the last blog page I, along with Renee today, expressed surprise that Art didn’t become at least a centenarian.
    The reasons for this are twofold on my part: a) He often expounded upon the longevity-enhancing powers of Primal, even writing in his early books of an expectation that post-Primallers could live to see 120, or even 150 years of age, and b) Art had every reason to live as long as he possibly could given his beliefs about the preciousness of life and death being the end of all experience forever.
    Given mine and Renee’s surprise about this, I started to wonder about various factors which may have caused his stroke after you mentioned it earlier on this blog page. I’ve already discussed how his fascination with brain anatomy causing me some fears, but I also have a growing curiosity as to whether he should have pursued stem-cell treatments.
    Can you kindly let me know where you may have originally heard about Art having a stroke aside from what was reported in the Washington Post? Thanks.

    • Phil says:

      It was in a Facebook discussion where I first read about the stroke. That person seemed to have solid information. Maybe the story will change, but the fact is he’s dead, which is the bottom line.

      • Phil: I know nothing can be changed after the fact, yet I was wondering if errors may have been made outside of natural Primal living (ie. stem-cell treatments) that kept Art from becoming a centenarian.
        Also, I said earlier about the expectation of post-Primallers living to 120 or 150 years of age. I think this was in the original Primal Scream book. Now that I think about it, though, it may have been a quote or paraphrasing from one of his clients, not sure.

        • Phil: Forgot to say “Thank you” for your answer on how you heard what happened.

          • Phil says:

            Guru, I would think that to have the longest possible lifespan, and the highest quality of life we would need to be free of primal pain from the time of conception, have a good birth, good parents etc. Art Janov didn’t have all of this, from what I understand.
            Luck is also involved in other ways. We would need to be free of genetic diseases, living in a good country away from natural disasters, crazy people, accidents, pollution,carcinogens poverty, boring jobs , and a host of things I haven’t thought of or weren’t discovered yet. I haven’t had a lot of this so I’m doubtful about living to an old age. I’d like to just enjoy the time I have left.

            • My grandma smoked a pack of menthol cigarettes every day, and she was such a raging alcoholic during the years after my mother’s traffic collision that a county sheriff once had to enter her home and place her in a drunk tank for her own safety. She was 85 years old at the time & she had a BAC of .26, She still made it to 91 years old somehow.

              • Phil says:

                I think a lot of those factors for longevity and health are statistical. You can get lung cancer without being a smoker. Smoking only increases the risk of cancer and other diseases, the same with drinking. Maybe your grandma would have lived over 100 if she had a better lifestyle.

                • I just shake my head thinking about it. She was being assaulted by sad occurrences from all sides of her life. Losing my mother (her only child), and some years later her my grandpa to a gun suicide, leaving her completely alone except housekeeper/conservator. I forgive her blunders in every way. She ran a liquor store, so it makes sense why alcohol became her coping mechanism.
                  A lot of painful (and a few funny) stories there, but enough about that. Everybody was amazed she lasted as long as she did.

                  • Phil says:

                    Guru, Interesting, and brings to mind my own grandmother who also lived to 91. She had a tough life. My grandfather died of a heart attack at age 42, leaving her to raise 3 children alone. My mother died young at age 44 after years of progressive illness, and another child my uncle, died at age 55, although another uncle survives. I saw my grandmother as strong, but also a depressed person. Also, all I had as a mother figure for most of my childhood.
                    She was a cold woman and I heard stories from her childhood that probably made her that way. To me, it seems clear how that coldness runs in the family starting with my grandmother. She lived a healthy lifestyle, didn’t smoke or drink, wasn’t really a happy person, but a survivor.

                    • Phil, I’m sure we could dig out some therapeutic morsels from our grandparent stories if we kept going at it (I know for a fact I could on a fair number of unresolved issues). It would be best for me to veer this blog conversation back to Janov, though. I just brought it up because of how unpredictable lifespans can be. Lots of other things on my mind I have to work on here. Maybe we’ll set up a campfire with marshmallows sometime and take this up anew.

        • Erron says:

          Shit happens. The man had been suffering from a severe problem with his throat for over 50 years. Perhaps it became infectious, maybe even cancerous. Who knows. He lived 93 quality years, and achieved much. It’s not how long you live but the quality of the life you call living, that counts. In my opinion that depends on how well-connected you are to your feelings. Live a feeling life, or run from feelings, you will die and almost certainly no God will welcome you. So live it to the full, as I believe Art did. That’s my take away from his life, and death.

  44. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi everyone: and especially all those that have put their feeling out here, for all of us to read.

    It’s amazing just how much feelings are being expressed as a result of Art’s death. It affected me deeply, and still doing so. I am certain there is an old feeling contained in all this for me, but for right now I need to remain in the present, knowing that Art is no longer with us. I am deeply saddened by it, but I don’t need, for me to go into why it happened. It is sufficient for me, that it has happened … sad that that is.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: It is always for me very enlightening to here a therapist talk about their feelings. It put us all in the same ‘boat’ as twere. It gives me a greater sense that I made the right decisions. It’s a whole other way of ‘BEING’.

      Otto: that donkey expressing it’s feeling vocally was very moving and also showed me just how close to other creatures, than we normally acknowledge.

      Renee: the link to Gabor Mate you gave, I thought was very inspiring, but it did something else to me. Is there a way to say all this stuff more simply, briefly????? I certainly try. What is revealed to me is just how seriously debilitating “neurosis” has on us.

      Larry: You saying “it left a hole in me” sums up my feeling also.

      Phil: Me too.


  45. Erron says:

    Hi Jack and everyone, I had a very deep feeling two days ago about Art dying. It was around loneliness, the horrible feeling that dogs me to this day. I can’t begin to describe all the sad, destructive things I’ve done not to feel like I was all alone in this world. That feeling touched on how I felt alone when my dad died, but it wasn’t until today that I really followed through with another, deeper and more extensive feeling session.

    I had a close relationship with my dad: we used to hug, we fished & hunted together, we’d go out for a beer together. I’d pick him up from his old soldier reunions and drive him home. He was invariably drunk, and sometimes obviously close to tears when I did this. But as a child he frowned on my own crying. I was to grow up to be a man, a man who would probably need to fight in the next war, and so I couldn’t afford to cry like girls did.

    Art Janov was the daddy who taught me it was okay to cry. He gave me permission to be weak, and not have to pretend I was always strong. He showed me why I was crazy – what a revelation and relief to understand the inner agony driving my behaviour – and he showed me how to get well. I owe him – and all the other therapists and patients who helped him develop PT through the decades – so much. I owe my real dad my survival through childhood with a crazy, dangerous mother. I owe Art Janov my survival from then until now. I can’t ever repay them, except to live the best life I can.

    As I said earlier today on another blog, now I’ve lost them both and can only cry out this loneliness…

    The Hippie Long Hair and the Old Soldier having a laugh together in the mid 70s:

  46. Margaret says:

    yes, I did not like it the articles always go to the screaming and come up with one socalled expert that wipes PT off the table with a few (stupid) casual words.
    but speaking for myself I feel a bit bad about my criticism to France’s approach, as although i did feel uneasy when I watched those training videos, and am ok with that feeling of mine, I did start to form an opinion on her with much too little information. when I heard her on that French interview she sounded very nice and gentle…
    but in that interview too, the reporter showed this ‘shocking’ extract of a big fierce primal, but without putting it in perspective with how one gets there, and how afterwards one can reflect and allow the healing and relief and let the pieces fall into place.
    just showing such extracts must give a lot of people who watch it an idea this therapy merely makes one go crazy,..
    having seen and been in primals such a scene is moving, but out of context it can turn people off and seems more aimed to sensational television than anything else.
    it must be difficult to have to deal with interviewers that always try to go that way, and again, as primal is so precious to me, I can only hope it gets its ful merits on a vaster scale in a nearby future, for humanity’s sake as this world is going crazier and crazier and is getting fuller and fuller ..
    so all my respect for anyone working on the primal field really, way to go…

    • David says:

      don’t have a beastie in the ,’ massacres, ‘ race, but there has been a growing influence to stop showing carnage that perps and other sick minds get off on.
      I have been listening to family interviews with Canadians whose family members were murdered in Vegas. Not to detract from the horror and grief of loved ones, but still domestic soil assaults deaths still represent a small number compared to the annual police killings and our military invasions against out equipped victims who are branded insurgents for defending their countries or when they come to our soil; while allied forces are gods in chariots of all that is good.

  47. Patrick says:

    Apparently Freud died (assisted suicide actually) on Yom Kipper 1939 I think Janov missed it by one day. Yom Kippur this year was Sep 30th. See I tend my “inner Jew”

  48. Sylvia says:

    Can I come too to your campfire, Phil and Guru? I’ll bring the hot chocolate and stories of my grandma to curl your hair.

    • Also include a clear, starry night sky at a forested lakeside with mountains in the distance and some casual fishing equipment. Preferably a big RV or two stocked with Brawny paper towels. Yeah, that should cover it. I hate to say it, but this setting would make me want to bring some beer with me. Would have to experience some beer deprivation feelings to remain a completely disciplined teetotaler.

    • Phil says:

      we can gather around our computers or cellphones and tell stories. Too bad Guru has to go to bed already.

  49. Sylvia says:

    I do have paper towels, and a computer; hmm, which way to go. Two RV’s? Couldn’t come up with anything but a tent. You’ll have to get on your computer and join us from your makeshift lodge, Guru–no early to bed, either.

  50. Paul Garland says:

    Hi All,

    I read all these posts, through tears of loss, triggered by your words of loss. I am crying as I write.
    Luckily for me I got to know Art extremely well through his blog; for me he is like a family member. To suggest he is a Daddy substitute is not quite right because Primal is not really a therapy that requires ‘transference’. So, how can that be? How can it be possible to get to know someone so well through typed words on an internet link. . ? Furthermore he strictly kept to the rules about NOT offering therapeutic support ‘online’. Apart from his many exquisite blog essays, which frankly are even better than his books; mostly he said nothing apart from short quips in response to pieces we wrote and he printed.

    So I got to know him through a very sophisticated guessing game, like a child playing ‘eye spy’; not a child needing attention, but a child in an adult’s body needing to heal the rift between the two; he knew me better than I knew myself. Before my breakdown I was either the child (acting out) OR the ‘adult’ defending against something. . . and I did not know what.

    A very strange turn of events lead me to his blog in 2010 after a serious breakdown where I could not stop crying. I mean COULD NOT STOP. OK, it was not all the time but when I started I had to find somewhere to be and let myself go until I stopped. . . So, I went to my local bookshop and discovered an Alice Miller book. Inside, would you believe it, she recommended Art as possibly the only valid Primal Therapist. OK, that’s contentious and not true however, the sentiment certainly IS. On Art’s blog I discovered that she had planned to go into therapy herself with Art when he was in Paris. Alice chose a different route and later died of cancer. I am sure there are many so called ‘Rebirthers’ and the like who have plagiarised real Primal and made people ill – my best friend back in 1987 was indeed a case in point, another poor victim.
    So with this book of Alice’s I went home and started looking up ‘Primal’ online and discovered his blog. I was intent on so doing because my best friend who had died of Hodgkins back in 1987 had given me the Primal Scream to read and since then I had laboured under the false impression that ALL psychotherapy applied Primal principles. . . In fact I had wasted £thousands under that illusion here in UK since 1987 until 2010 when I found that book.
    People must realise Art was seriously abused and neglected in his own childhood. He wrote about that on his blog. Then he was also traumatised in WW2. The death of his daughter was crushing for both Vivienne and Art. He wrote a little about that too.
    By 2016 he said categorically that he was no longer afraid of dying. He was still having occasional Primals right up till February 2017, he wrote about those aswell. He had various throat opps due to a botched previous surgery and that is why he was tired in the video with Otis.
    I believe he felt an impossible BURDEN on him personally to deliver us all from our neurosis. How on earth could a man write all those books and do all the things he did and not burn out in the end? He must have known how much pressure he was putting on himself, I saw it, I felt it.
    I hope he didn’t suffer too much and my heart is with France who will no doubt be feeling a lot of pain right now and a while to come. She also wrote a piece about a Primal she had. France is very much of the opinion that we don’t have ‘free will’, that we deceive ourselves. I suppose as an ex boarding school survivor Art & France’s version of Primal appeals to me because it really seems to be ‘no holds barred’. By that I don’t mean violent, but I do mean uncompromising. Yet I am told that France also has said that access can be chaotic at first, that each person must find their own way. . .

    Paul G.

    • Erron says:

      Yes, Paul, I believe France refers to it somewhere in the Legacy videos as an individual’s Primal Track. It’s certainly what I have experienced over the past five months with a Janov trained therapist. At first I was all over the place, but have gradually learned the way in to my feelings, and can to a large degree go down that path on my own when needed now.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Paul I liked what you wrote and your experiences. The only point I might have some difference with, was your mentioning that “Primal is not really a therapy that requires ‘transference’ “.

      As I understand it, we all tend, both before and after therapy, some aspects of transference in the Freudian sense. It depends on the amount of transference (consciously or subconsciously, identifying someone with some other), that I feel is more important.

      In my case; I saw Vivian and her care, and yep!, liking of me, like my maternal “Granny”. No Vivian was not my granny, but she reminded me of her, and I told her so. She was not happy that I associated her with ‘granny’, being “bad enough” that others identified her as mommy. I always insisted at retreats that she be MY therapist.

      My Granny loved and adored me. I was lucky … I got something.


      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi Jack,
        It’s so easy with typed words to impart something not quite meant.

        The subject of transference Art discussed on his blog – (see how keen a student I became – almost ‘teacher’s pet’). He said that in Primal he tried not to discourage transference / counter transference but on the other hand through the particular way therapists work with patients (sitting often behind, or to one side etc and NOT talking too much if at all, ie: NOT taking central stage like a conventional therapist in a nicely decorated office with cute paintings and all) – that ‘conventional’ dialectic was not appropriate.

        I think this is important. Sure, a patient will identify with whatever s he will. conventional therapists (themselves without access to their own 1st line stuff and intending NOT to help a patient gain access) are trained to do ‘counter transference’ as if this is a key aspect to therapy – that a patient is inevitably going to ‘transfer’ ( I should know, I have spent a small fortune ‘second guessing’ and ‘walking on eggshells’ around conventional therapists, waiting for them waiting for me to ‘transfer’). . !

        I loved the way Art dealt with the whole subject, he had a great sense of humour. He was making the point that Primal is radically different in that the aim of both the therapist & patient is neither dependent on nor trying to counter the ‘transference’ or anything else.

        He was always banging on about ‘The Dialectic’.

        I just loved him for that.

        Paul G.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Paul: After sending you my reply I re-considered what I written and felt I might have been ‘nit-picking’ Primal therapy does not, as far as I know encourage transference but I don’t think the therapist try to stop it either.

          I do think some of the things Art did in the early days have been somewhat abandoned/up-dated. In all my session the therapist sat on the floor with me and faced me. The one thing that was very noticeable for me was the therapist said little or nothing allowing (me at least) to run off, in or about my feeling/s.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            My big concern, and I’m sure there’s something deeper reasons for my missionary zeal is:- to try and promote at least Primal Theory, especially to would be parents. The problem, as I see it, is that educating and or playing expert actually produces the opposite and defeats the attempt. I have spent a considerable amount of time thinking about just this.
            The only solution I came up with was a very obtuse one, which I also did not get much encouragement from. If you would like me to explain my obtuse notion, I think that might be better done privately. My email address is Feel free.


  51. David says:

    I feel considerable grief over the death of this man I did not know. ( Did see him once when he moved to Malibou, at a distance.) I felt none when my parents and brothers died.
    I looked into his eyes during video presentations and believe he was decent and genuine.
    Why would his death bring up that old terrifying hopelessness in me, that tells me to be silent, invisible; that staying alive depends on it, and simultaneously that death is my escape.

  52. Otto Codingian says:

    well since there are additional people on here, i wont say the snarky stuff i just said to someone i still know. anyway dont bother me when i am trying to figure out…ok.. whatever. i shut up now. pay my bills. pay newer bills. forget it. ha ja ja.

  53. Paul Garland says:

    Hi All,
    I have heard many negative criticisms of Art. Three in particular stand out along with a fourth most recently:

    1: That he was a ‘Self Promoter’.
    2: That he had somehow projected into Primal his own unresolved stuff.
    3: That as a consequence of 1 & 2 he had become personally responsible for the lack of Primal development in the (so called) ‘lexicon’ of therapies, alongside various others.
    4: That he had not completed his own therapy and that’s why he died prematurely.

    Unfortunately for me as a lay student of psychology, a trained facilitator specialising in group dynamics & personality typing, a journalist and most of all a proficient Lead Carpenter and ex company director; I can say that the people who have said these things have merely exposed their ‘type’, their typical projections and their predictable assumptions.

    Having got to know Art really well through his blog over the last seven years I know Art has admitted these criticisms are true, at least in part. But I know they are true of me too, except I’m still alive. . . But, how will I ever know when I might have died had I not got through to my feelings?

    What if?

    Paul G.

  54. Margaret says:

    reading Nick’s remark again about what would have happened if we would not have read the primal scream, it occurred to me I feel like I would have led my life only using part of my brain, the rest being busy repressing old pain.
    every bit of brain and therefor conscience regained is such a precious gift, which of course we also had to earn by facing our own demons.
    specially witnessing the very intense primal on the video on the site of the NY Times article Phil posted, gives such an impression of the huge intensity of the force required to repress emotions with that kind of load and pressure…
    and that was only a small piece of a feeling on the video, such a massive energy over the years…
    and all of that set free for productive and positive use after processing those feelings…

    I hope I can find some ways to promote Primal therapy even if it is in small ways, it is all so worthwhile…
    this is indeed such a life changing break through in psychology which deserves an important place in its theories and practice.

  55. Arthur Janov
    It was careless of me in my earlier reflections on the death of Arthur Janov to have omitted one of the most important benefits that I am sure I drew from Primal Therapy. These are benefits that were to extend to others but not only to friends and colleagues or those I managed, trained and helped professionally.
    I am quite sure that I would have been a much less well-equipped and prepared parent to my stepchildren who, with their mother, came to live with me when they were only 3 and 4, had I not engaged with Primal Therapy and its core concepts. Of course in the end, only my step-children, now in their thirties, can say whether that claim might have any validity.
    Nick Barton

    • Paul Garland says:

      Hi Nick,
      which just goes to show how feelings can make unrelated people related.
      Sadly, my ex dumped her stepson as well as me after 3 years of Buddhist mindlessness meditation.
      I hear Buddha dumped his own son, is that actually true?

      Paul G.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Nick: I don’t doubt that you were a very lovely step dad to those kids of your wife. Vivian once at a retreat, told me that you were a lovely father to those children of your new wife.

      I doubt that you need to even ask them, for I feel they will show it in hundreds of ways., especially if they now have children of their own.

      Art has left us a great legacy. It’s now up to us to carry that legacy forward. For my own reason, I am doing all I can to carry it forward. Not sure if it will ever ‘pay off’ .

      • Jack Waddington says:

        I wrote two books the second a do-it-yourself “feeling therapy” book and so far only got one person who read it, and seemingly it has changed his life. He’s feeling many old feelings, all on his own in Begrade Serbia and we regularly communicate my email.

        He said on learning of Art death that he feared me dying. I will … inevitably, but hopefully he’ll have enough of himself to carry on without me and maybe even promote the therapy to others in Serbia. He suffers Tourette Syndrome and now claims to be getting into birth feelings and some of his family acknowledge improvement in his ticks.

        I hope sometime in the future to go and visit him, now that I am resident back in Europe.

        Good luck Nick and keep on trucking.


    • Phil says:

      Nick, I agree that Primal must have a rippling effect, I feel sure I have been a better father because of the therapy, if only by being educated about trauma. Too bad my therapy process hasn’t gone quicker. Then I would have been better equipped while my kids were still young. Phil

    • Bill Jones says:

      To Nick,
      You did my fourth week in 1977.
      Art’s death was a great loss to me.
      You and I were in a lot of conflict back in the 1970’s.
      At the same time, I want to acknowledge the grief you must be feeling over Art’s death. I know there is nothing I can write to make you feel better in your time of sorrow.

  56. Vicki says:

    Art’s obit finally appeared in print in the L.A. Times today (online dated 10/04/17), a repeat of the Associated Press version. Every version I have seen mentions Art’s view that homosexuality is curable, even though the American Psychiatric Assn. removed it from their list of disorders in 1973. But I also think this is unfortunate, because readers may easily believe that Primal Therapy follows Art’s belief on this subject, and therefore think that Primal Therapy mistreats homosexuals — which in fact, is not the case.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: Interesting and I have gone through a great deal of thought on the matter.
      Permit me to write about here. It may be possible to change ones sexual orientation, whatever that orientation might be. I feel that it is first a necessity, that the patient with an orientation they are not happy with, and wanted to change, would have to be the first pre-requisite.
      I have no desire and never had, to change mine, especially at this stage of my life . I feel I am lucky. I never did dislike my homosexual orientation. I do feel in my case I used it as a means to kill pain (sex addiction).

      That said; I do not feel that being homosexual is NOT NORMAL (whatever “normal is supposed to mean). I take it to mean ‘a major majority of people’.

      I have had old feeling why I might be ‘gay’ and how that was further pushed along by not having the Daddy I needed and that I never saw him as someone I admired, or wanted to be like. I did care about him since he was the only daddy I had. To the best of my awareness I am not sure if my sex addiction is the whole, or part of my sexual orientation.

      Last point:- I was never ashamed of my sexual orientation, but neither was I proud of it. I just liked it and enjoyed it. Now, at my age, my sex drive has evaporated. I am very content to live with a companion I care deeply about (even though at times he can be an awkward bugger). I just wished he done Primal therapy.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Correction: I wrote:- “I do not feel that being homosexual is NOT NORMAL”. I should omitted the first “not” and read:- “I do feel that being homosexual is NOT NORMAL”


    • David says:

      I am not homophobic, but by what authority can it be challenged that homosexuality should not be accepted as curable ? I know homosexual folks who are comfortable with their sexuality, but, believe it is ,’ acquired,’ not genetic. Have you read any of Arthur’s work , post 80’s, including the New Primal Scream, and the work at the Primal Training Center. Arthur’s beliefs on psychological states, and disease states, were developed from observing and listening to recovering patients, and interviewing mothers of patients.
      There is a great movement to accept as faites des complètes, many states, autism, homosexuality, cerebral palsy, Downe’s Syndrome, even assigning preferred status. I rail against bigotry in any form, and try to keep my mind open, while sussing out and separating absolute foolishness.
      On a sort of parallel is the work with brain injured children at the Institutes for the Achievement of Human Potential, where healing from Austism, ADADHD, Cerebral Palsy, Mental Retardation are considered child’s play compared to the resuscitated children left with erased brains, blind, deaf, who heal and return to their high functioning normalcy potentials… Conventional medicine authorities paint IAHP as quackery, as they do Primal. Those of us with personal connections know better.
      I often come to realize that many of my criticisms, that are clearly of emotional etiology, are offshoots of my neurotic compensations with my family of origin.

      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi David,
        Have you read Art’s ebook called: “Sex & The Subconscious”?

        Primal Theory tends to see variations from ‘normal’ as symptoms of some kind of early trauma.
        Then you have to at least briefly survey what’s normal. All kinds of things ARE normal. Such as temperature, blood pressure, pulse, certain brainwaves in certain situations. we humans share a very great number of ‘normals’.
        The problem with this new ‘Cult Of The Individual’ (promulgated by the elites who rule over us), is that we are becoming deceived into believing we as individuals have ONLY our own normals. God forbid we share anything in common with others than our differences says the ‘Cult Of The Individual’. . .
        It’s a great trick which relies on neurosis to actually work and it always results in ‘pseudo community’. It is a manipulation of the self deceit/denial inherent in neurosis. Jack has made his own observations of this in the LGBT community which ‘worships’ differences – as long as they are the same differences ( ! ) I mean, there’s no harm in a bit of ‘differentiation’, but how differentiated have you really become when you need to be identified with another cult of differences?

        I became enrolled into the ‘Cult Of The Individual’. Then I had some massive Primal experiences and ‘fell out’. As many of us report, it’s bloody lonely sometimes, until you find a soul mate and can ‘Pair Bond’.

        Paul G.

  57. Vicki says:

    From an article about the Las Vegas massacre:

    We are a culture that continually neglects the emotional health of our boys, and our men. These factors about mass shooters are often true:

    1. They are deeply lonely. They have no significant friendships to rely on, and very few quality people to confide in.
    2. They experienced ongoing play deprivation. Their innate ability was crippled, and they struggle to maintain a healthy emotional connection with themselves and others.
    3. They are deeply ashamed. They experienced extreme ridicule, rejection, or humiliation.

    • Phil says:

      Vicki, I think that article really hits the nail on the head about the shooters. They aren’t necessarily mentally ill in a conventional sense, but in ways familiar to us here. I don’t think fixing the mental health system is going to solve this problem. Boys are taught that they are supposed to be tough and self reliant, and not nurtured. The press keeps reporting on a lack of motive found, as in so many cases. Even with terrorists, true motivations and causes are missed. Here is the shame of Dr. Janov being ignored. Phil

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: Right on!!!!! If only the mental health people would re-consider Primal theory.

        If the purpose of finding a motive by the authorities, a means of hoping they can prevent it. IMO “NO”. It goes way deeper than all that. as noted in Vicki’s comment

        Searching for a motive will IMO achieve nothing.


        • David says:

          I served for a bit on a Mental Health Planning Committee for the Province; until, I came to the clarity, that we were only meant to ,’ study,’ forever, not ever to take action, make binding resolutions. Kind of like curing poverty, and have all of the profits from soup kitchens and food banks disappear ??

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Dave: I’d like to add more here, since you responded to me. From my own experience I don’t believe that homosexuality is either natural or normal. However, like most homosexual (gay) people, I do and did feel I was born this way (gay [strange word, since most are not that joyful} “gay”).

            Now, more than ever, I see the major cause for it in gestation exacerbated later by early life experiences, OR least-ways that was the way for me. I know that many ‘gay’ people go through a torturous period normally in publicly, and it often takes some time (years) to resolve it. I was lucky … that didn’t happen to me. Some accept it; and even some get married in the hope it will cure them: only for it to manifest itself later in life, disrupting that marriage and any children as a result of it.
            There are others (normally characterized as bi-sexual) that take on sex with both sexes and most of them seem to accept it.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              The major problem, I feel, eminates from a sort of arrogance from those that have accepted it and are seemingly proud of it and demonstrate that pride publicly. I see that as the major cause for homophobia. The LGBT community is made up of many types. Many of them I personally do not like or wish to associate with. However I can, I feel, accept, that is their wish. There is perhaps another factor. The are ‘pluses’ sides and ‘minuses’ to homosexuality.
              Some being:- that gay sex is relatively easy, free fom menstral cycles, and unintended pregnancies. The major downside was made clear to me by my heterosexual brother, who said I missed out on all the fantastic experiences of having and rearing a child or children. I agree and acept that.


              • Jack Waddington says:

                Correction: “through a torturous period normally in publicly” should’ve read “puberty” not ‘publicly’
                Also:- “demonstrate that pride publicly” I meant to add “see, Gay Pride Weeks”.

          • Paul Garland says:

            So f*****g true. . .

      • David says:

        Well said, Phil. I wonder which produces the worse outcome, being raised by sick families, or being raised by oneself ?

    • Chris P says:

      thanks for sharing that Vicki.

      Also, I want to add that even in this day and age, most newborn boys in our culture still go through a ritual genital mutilation (circumcision) shortly after birth. The generation of boys who are of the age of the Las Vegas murderer (68) were almost all cut. This act is brutal beyond belief, and I am sure it rewires the brain and essentially cuts the boy off from any future sense of love, trust, or deep intimacy.

      The trauma, terror, and rage of this inhumane betrayal is deeply buried but gets expressed in a myriad of ways. My guess is is that it is one big contributing factor in why men go berserk and carry out these despicable acts.

      And as we speak, it is still legal to perform genital mutilation on infant males in this country. Our American Academy of Pediatrics still endorses the act:

      We live in a vile society that allows such an atrocious act to be perpetrated on our most vulnerable. It makes these kinds of mass murders comprehensible and unfortunately, it is without a doubt that they will continue: disconnected and deeply wounded men with severe childhood traumas coupled with easy access to rifles/guns is a very lethal mix.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Chris: I agree with all of that Chris. My dad was circumcised and intended both me and brother should be, BUT (lucky for me) forgot on our births.


      • Paul Garland says:

        Chris P,
        thank you for giving this terrifying subject attention here.
        I have investigated this through a Facebook friend Called Benjamin Lewis (I think that’s his name). I am sure he won’t mind me advertising his ‘Intactivist mission’ on this forum.

        It’s hard for me to talk about this as I am not circumcised but my Dad has been and I can put 2 + 2 together. So, I am convinced something radical happens to the psyche of those unfortunates and Art may have been one. . . But who am I to make judgements when I have no real idea and have never heard any Primal people discuss the subject? Let alone heard tell of a Primal where such an incredible event could / can/ was re lived.
        Have any of you read Janov’s ‘Sex & The Subconscious’ available on Smashwords as an ebook? It’s only a few dollars to buy. Also Gill Bate’s ebook on the same subject? Very hard to read but essential, IF you need to know that is.
        As a Jewish infant was Art circumcised? Given the fact he was also very neglected and brainwashed as a child, if he was circumcised and then still working on his own stuff, occasionally Primaling right up to 2016, it kind of follows he may well have hit one of those ‘ICEBERGS’ lodged in his psyche that he mentioned some Primal patients discover along the way, or worse, much later on without supervision in a tricky life situation.
        That kind of thing can bring an ex patient back into a second intensive, so I hear. . .
        If it doesn’t do something worse.

        Paul G.

      • David says:

        Somewhere it has become unthinkable to suggest that parenting, let alone mothering, and parental modeling, must be held accountable. In my professional experience the sexual abuse of children by females, including mothers, grandmothers, nuns, was buried, leaving the misperception that only males abuse. It is desirable for women to be in the workplace for the profits of the economies, and the profiteers. And so motherhood, and babies need for their moms is downplayed, even played as being sexist if questioned. I won’t rant on because all of you know, perhaps better then I. But I see an emerged generation, who have less pack loyalty; as egocentric, ethnocentric, jingoistic, as the white unsophisticated invaders who settled Turtle Island. 100 people die per day of gun violence in the USA; 1 % of that number is by public homicides, including, ‘ terrorist,’ ‘ mass,’ murders. It’s the poster child, public shootings, a distraction from the larger problem, the uncivilized human animal. It pales with the disenfranchisement of large segments of the citizenry, children, elderly, color, that leads to hopelessness, poverty, in all of it’s facets. Will stop here, because the more I examine it, the more unclear it becomes to me.
        I suspect that 99.999% of babes are born perfect, ( nature’s been doing this gig for a long time,), receptacles for the shaping input responsible for the developing product.

  58. Erron says:

    Perhaps i’t not the end, but a beginning. This song by Australian singer John Farnham apparently became something of an anthem in Europe in the 80’s around the fall of the Wall:

    “Age Of Reason”

    From the day that we were born we’ve been heading down a track
    Sometimes it’s made for good sometimes for bad
    But if we look behind us there’s a wave coming down
    Carrying us forward to a new age

    What about the world around us
    How can we fail to see
    And now that our fathers have gone
    And we’ve been left to carry on
    What about the age of reason

    So why can’t we be still why can’t we love each other
    Is kindness an ancient skill buried by our blindness
    And if we look behind us there’s a wind blowing in
    To create the age of reason

    If we consider carefully the options put before us
    So much wisdom so much love so much waiting for us
    And if we look ahead there’s the sun and the seasons
    Another day another age of reason


  59. Otto Codingian says:

    i dont know what transference means. too tired to even care. my wife thinks i see her as my mom. actually i see everyone as my uncle, who nearly murdered me. i see my life as my uncle, my life of being used to getting little, so i dont take care of me. is it transference when a therapist ask the patient to come sit by him, so he can stroke the patient, and unleash years of tears? if so, i have not had enough transference yet, very little.

  60. Otto Codingian says:

    my brother called and my stupid phone did not ring. i did not want to call him back, because i am fried from working, and will be that way until january. i dont want to call my younger son. he is finding out his miserable chldhood did exist and does not want to have anything to do with us. pt did not seem to make me a better father, although i could not afford therapy most of the time anyways. maybe it kept me from being a worse father. a person like me, never should have had children.

    • Paul Garland says:


      seeing as it was me that made an issue of ‘transference’ I’ll try to say a few words to you personally, whether they help I don’t know. I also wonder if I should have had kids. My son is disabled and before his heroine addicted mother died in 2006, she ‘parentally alienated’ him from me and his stepmother. Such stress was put onto his stepmother by all that ‘Personality Disordered’ malarkey my daughter by her was also born damaged in 2003. This later resulted in ‘divorce’ my complete breakdown and the ongoing family mess. . . I am ‘sweeping up’ all time.
      I have felt the need for suicide and the only reason I kept that one at bay is because Art said on his blog (after I told a longer version of this story) – “Give Life A Chance”-.

      Otto, we gotta give life a chance.

      Paul G.

    • David says:

      this touches me, Otto.

  61. Christopher Hamlin says:

    I visited the Primal Institute when it was in North Almont Drive around Christmas 1974. I remember Olga Corbett was famous as a gymnast on TV. My interview was with Vivian Janov and Art entered the room towards the end of it. Although accepted for therapy I didn’t go. The reason was I was already experiencing a ‘self primal’ process and decided to go with that rather than relocate from UK to USA. Coming to the Institute would be the ‘fall back’. That was 43 years ago. In the interim life in general has been my therapist and I discovered that there is an evolution based process that permits feelings to rise in a natural sequence. Most of my pain was first line both birth and prebirth. My second line development had been crippled by the first line pain load. It took a while to get the hang of the self primal process but after a while it became just part of everyday life, although not a part I could widely share. Many years later in Brighton UK I met Richard and Maggie Theed who had been therapists with Art Janov. Art’s output in terms of books and blogs were my lifeline. Many times I felt I might be ill or have some terrible affliction but eventually I realised that ‘physical and psychological symptoms’ are just part of the primal process. All the years I was doing this the presence of Art ‘in the background’ was an important subliminal support factor and I read his books and blogs searching for my own experiences within them. Now he is gone. It came as a surprise, as with all those years of feeling I thought metaphorically, he would live for ever, Thank you Arthur Janov for by just being and writing you took my life in a much better direction. Many of the media obituaries seem to be stuck in the 70’s, obsessed with so called Primal Scream Therapy. Art’s legacy is infinitely more substantial than these superficial attempts to define his work, in most cases by people who have never experiences a primal, Thank you Art for being born in my timeline and for everything you contributed to it. Chris

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Christopher: Wow! that is so revealing. I agree with a great deal of what you wrote … so clear and succinct. It too feel very strongly that it is possible to do therapy on oneself. The one proviso that there is a very clear understanding of both the principle and the process. That’s not easy.

      I have written a book to that effect. I will send you a .pdf file of it should you wish. My email is


    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Christopher. I so enjoyed reading about your journey because I have been on a similar one with no formal therapy. It is true that there is not many places to share or people to talk to when we are experiencing these deep feelings. I found a refuge here at the blog of people to listen and a place to dare show my feelings. This and reading Janov’s books and watching what primal videos were on the web helped me. My pains are mainly from pre-birth and birth also and I was wondering if that was what enabled us to feel without a lot of defenses, our gating of pain is bad and the feelings come up whether we want them to or not. In the 70’s when I first heard of primal I had gotten into feelings and knew I needed help doing the therapy. Only sporadically I would have the feelings.

      It was not until much later, about 4 yrs. ago though, that feeling became a saving grace for me. With defenses being further strained by life-circumstances, the stress of taking care of my mom with dementia, and tired of trying to turn off every bad feeling, I found primal on the internet with my first computer. And as they say, the rest is history. I think it is important also to heed the warning for others to not get into too much feeling or it can be fragmenting. I experienced some of that and will say that it is always best to get help with such powerful feelings that will be brought forth.

      Thanks again for your post and best wishes.

      • Christopher Hamlin says:

        Hi Sylvia, Thanks for your response to my note. Powerful defenses are indeed a problem if one wants to feel and it is this area where a well trained therapist can be essential. A leaking first line gate can be an advantage for the ‘self primal process’ if your second line gate will open as well after being tight shut for years. Some peoples bodies manage the feeling process quite well. The problems come if you rush your gates – sorry about the pun. We should let our bodies dictate the pace (different for all of us) and be prepared for quite a few symptoms and periods of suffering. It is worth it. Chris.

        • Sylvia says:

          Yes, Chris, I agree, therapy is no picnic no matter how it is done. And I agree that it is always wise to have good help, professional if possible. And a good friend would be invaluable. I always tried to be honest with myself too. It’s not a pretty thing to see I’m not my nicely-pictured-image of a mature person but am just a hurting little kid instead.

        • Vicki says:

          Chris and Sylvia,

          I admire the way you have both managed to follow your feelings and pursue your own healing — although you didn’t have much other options. I was in formal P.T. for 3-1/2 yrs, before having to leave because I was falling apart, my defenses were shot, and I was too disfunctional. For 13 yrs. I was just on my own, having feelings, that never stopped. I eventually worked through a lot of feelings and recovered much of my functionality, until I felt I might again benefit from working with a therapist, so I returned to the Institute. It has been a “long, strange trip” but with the steady progress continues.

          • Sylvia says:

            Vicki, thank you for sharing about your bumpy ride. I feel I was lucky to come this far. You have to know when to stop feeling, like you did because there’s the chance of getting overwhelmed, which happened to me. Then I knew what Art meant about not doing the therapy on one’s own. I said to myself, why did I start this? Luckily I was able to structure up–very lucky.
            You seem very grounded and I always like reading your posts.

      • Christopher Hamlin says:

        Sylvia: Thanks for your note. We seem to have quite a bit in common. I shall be 75 next year so spend my time with family, cycling and restoring an old Chevrolet Camaro in the Philippines which is where my wife comes from. I have never posted on this site before but just wanted to say something positive about Art Janov who had such an effect on my life. Best wishes with yours. Chris

        • Sylvia says:

          Chris, I am glad that you wrote on the blog and I’m glad you are enjoying your life. I think that’s what this journey is about, finding joy and love and going for what we want in life, without the anxiety and fear. I was lucky to have a good friend stand by me during fragile times. There are good people out there and I think we develop a better radar for finding them when we go through this therapy. Best wishes with your life too.

    • David says:

      best thing I’ve ever read on here. No incendiary intent aimed at other contributors. there’s the scary truth; blown away; now all hope is gone; hoped I’d find that magic key in Dr. Janov’s blogs….

  62. Christopher Hamlin says:

    Jack: thanks for your comments. I just felt I needed to say something relevant to register my appreciation of Art Janov’s work which was a lifeline for me. One needs the courage to travel inwards to resolve one’s personal feeling history. Many critics of Janov are driven by an unconscious desire to avoid this journey or to abort it. Their comments end up as 3rd line justifications of these fears however logical or scientific they sound. For sure Primal Therapy it is not for everyone. But as the old saying goes ‘don’t knock it until you have tried it’. My email is

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Christopher: You really amaze me, especially in this last comment. First by your ability to get into feelings on your own … then your (obvious to me) intelligent understanding of the process.

      The best lpart for me was:- ” Many critics of Janov are driven by an unconscious desire to avoid this journey or to abort it. Their comments end up as 3rd line justifications of these fears however logical or scientific they sound.”. I am in 100% agreement with those two sentences.

      I will send you .pdf copies on my books in a separate email.


    • David says:

      you truly amaze me, sir

  63. Otto Codingian says:

    here is a thought. am i recoiling from my dear sweet wife’s touch because i recoiled from my aunt’s touch, when i went to live with her at age 10 months because my mom was dying? i dont remember if i recoiled from my aunt’s touch, although if i had recoiled, it would have certainly made sure that my aunt might not have wanted to touch me again. why would i have recoiled at my aunt’s touch? pain of separating from mom’s touch…i wont go into detail on that hypothesis, doesnt much matter. or do i recoil from my dear sweet wife because i feel she is killing me by spending all the money on her own needs, and leaving no money for me, and forcing me to work constant overtime to keep up with all her needs. that issue would be magnified by the touch i got from my uncle at age 10 months and other times in later years, if and when he came up behind me and touched me from behind. like he was going to pop my head off of my body like he did with pigeons and who knows what else. what is my point here. i guess i feel guilty about recoiling from my wife, even though i am beyond exhausted and massively overeating, which is increasing my diabetes and heart issues and exhaustion. oh boy. she will go see kid in ohio for xmas. i will have to work harder to take care of the dog and cat, but i could use a break from my guilt about being unable to be engaged in a relationship.

    • David says:

      what is , ‘ dear, sweet,’ about anyone who would force you to overextend your work effort and leave nothing for you ?? why are you in partnership with such a relationship ?

  64. Otto Codingian says:

    i am not asking for help, except maybe for help from my dead mom. i just need to say somethings now and then, to unchestilate. i debated whether to translate it to russian first before posting it here, so that no one could read it, since i feel weird “speaking”in front of new people on the blog. maybe next time. i should have friends to talk to, but my neurosis is not going to allow for that. i will get a session in a while. shortly.

  65. Sylvia says:

    Otto, it’s good that you can get this off your chest. Sounds like the recoil from wife is resonating to your fear of time with your uncle, two feelings in one.
    Hope you don’t work too hard and that you have a good session.
    Take care.

  66. Many of you have written or called about the “trolling” that exists on our web site. We will continue to delete comments that many if not all of you have found hurtful or offensive. Barry and I think it might be useful to revisit the meaning of the words Internet troll. “Internet Troll: An Internet Troll is a colloquial expression used to define an online user who uses Information and Communications Technology (ICT) to purposely and actively provoke, defame, anger, tease, flame, or incite other online users. More often than not, the Internet Troll does not know the target recipient(s) of their vitriolic statements and behaviors. Internet Trolls regularly appear in all forms of online mediums ranging from online video gaming gatherings to chatroom and forum discussions.
    When the Internet Troll’s inflammatory statements and actions do not include a direct or implied physical threat to the target(s), their behavior is categorizes as cyber harassment. If the Troll’s verbal assaults include direct or implied physical threats to their target(s), their actions are then defined as cyberstalking.” . In other words it does not matter what the subject matter is because the purpose is to disrupt and harass. In fact the more controversial the better. It’s interesting to note that most commonly the troll shows up on websites meant for those who are grieving . Obviously , this page, meant for those who wish to discuss Arthur Janov’s death is perfect for the average troll. The other thing Barry and I want you to know is how common this problem actually is. It is happening on most web sites and is completely predictable. It turns out that trolls are oddly similar. More often than not the comments of trolls are related to misogyny, racism and anti semitism. Why? Because those are statements that are likely to upset and inflame whatever online community happens to be the target. Obviously these are attention seeking behaviors . They have to be, otherwise why would a person continuing assaulting others with their viewpoint when it is clearly not accepted. As I have said many times every possible approach has been tried here. I think it’s time to accept that whatever drives this behavior it is not something we on a blog can fix. We obviously want you all to be comfortable coming to the blog and will be doing our best to remedy this problem. In the end it’s a matter of respecting the feelings of others. Gretchen and Barry

    Sent from my iPad

    • Erron says:

      Thanks Gretchen & Barry,

      So wish there was a Like button…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      I liked your comment Gretchen and Barry. I’m not sure if or wether, it was necessary, because I felt most of us knew it, BUT defining “troll’ was great for me, as I was not quite sure what it really meant. I tend to use the word provocateur.

      However, having said all that; there is an aspect of me being provocative and have been told about it on several occasions. I doubt you were referring to me in your comment, BUT … who knows???

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Other than the weather I really am enjoying our new little home. The immediate surrounding are lovely, with the trees and bushes and quite a spacious garden. The park is also very lovely. I do feel we got the best site … maybe not the best, or largest Chalet, but the site is gorgeous.

        I am impressed also with the number of responses to Arts death. I’m still affected by it and think about him and his work most nights. I’ll miss his blog comments, even though for me I felt most of it was not new, but it did revive my thoughts on the matters he brought up. Now it’s up to the rest of us to carry his legacy forward. I wish that more than anything else, other than dealing with my life, and … enjoying it.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          I’d also like to send pictures of our home and garden, but don ‘t know how. Anyone able to help?

          • David says:

            As you know, Jack, I’m straight, also, a weird term, I think. I was reflecting on Dr. Janov’s work after 1987. The work that involved setting up the Training Center, where , ‘ Primalled Out,’ / post primal homosexual folks applied to be patients; Dr. Janov describing the non verbal primal sessions culminating in homosexual folks becoming heterosexual. Moms interviewed described without exception having experienced life threatening experience at 7 months gestation. I read Arthur’s view that until a patient discovered the cause for anything, it was unknown. I still believe that is a healthy position, and one I stuck to professionally and in personal circumstances.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              David: Yes I know you are straight (hetero).
              I also was aware that Art at one point was convinced it was curable. I feel he could well have been correct to think/feel so.
              All I would add to that from my own perspective was that the patient would desperately want to change and further, understand the what the change would mean in terms of his/her life.

              I do however, have an agenda in writing all this. I wish to show that I have no problem with anyone knowing that I am homosexual, nor am I ashamed or proud of it. I suspect that many feel there is something weird about a sexual orientation and have little desire to try an understand it. that’s fine; until or unless they discover one of their children turn out to be gay; as my father did.
              When that happened he wished me dead rather than know that this had happened. Ironically over time he came to accept it.


  67. Margaret says:

    I just ran into a casual sentence in a literary novel about someone leaving a commune of some kind to join ‘a Reichian center where rebirthing and primal scream therapy was done’. the tone was kind of ironic.
    and it was merely a remark about some side person disappearing from the story.
    but it made me think maybe PT could use a good marketing expert to counter all kinds of negative and biased opinions that have been stuck on it over the years.
    I hope I see things too negatively, as I am sensitive on this fine therapy being laughed at, while it is so effective on a basic level.
    but it seems about time it gets a good boost and some positive attention.
    I even wonder if a new name would help?
    after all it is so simple, let the feelings that are stored deep inside come up to the surface and get out of the system…

    expressing them being core, and feeling them of course.
    in the meantime I keep thinking about ways in which to reintrocuce the primal insights into mainstream psychology through ‘the back door’.
    but well, my influence might remain non existent or in the best case extremely minimal of course.
    main thing is to do our best isn’t it?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: It’s a daunting task and feel ART did his utmost in that respect and still the profession did it’s best to prevent it. Though Art’s real aim with his therapy was to dispense with the neurosis that was blocking and preventing the natural US form being our real selves.

      So many got it and those people will be forever grateful;. However is there a way to prevent it in the first place. I sincerely believe so … BUT that approach is very obtuse, and does not lie in the realm of psychology nor in nuero-physiology a la the medical profession. It lies IMO, in the nature of the very system we live under … a system re-pleat with means and methods of CONTROL. Up to and within the entertainment called ‘Sport’. “You or me” instead of ” “You and me”.

      I think everyone is aware of my feelings on THAT matter. And my contention of the greatest ‘controlling’ factor of all. Enuf said


    • Paul Garland says:

      Hi Margaret,

      the subject of how to market Primal came up on Art’s blog a while back. I was quite enthusiastic but Art was skeptical and I knew why. I then discovered first hand why for myself.
      I’m going to quote Jack, who said on Art’s blog about 5 years ago that the main problem is that until you’ve had some profound Primal experience, maybe a deep 2nd line crying experience or very deep suicidal death feelings it’s almost impossible to comprehend the idea of going TOWARD pain or believing there could any such pain inside yourself.

      It is my sad but true experience that most people are oblivious. Yet, catch them in a quiet moment or when their defenses are down and they will agree that pain is an issue and they have it too. We humans are capricious.

      In other words, Primal looks like nonsense to most people. Then you have to see that the ‘intellectuals’ have hijacked the mainstream psychotherapy / psychiatric / psychologic professions. They all to a man (& even a woman) believe we can talk ourselves or think ourselves back to health.

      Another Janov Blogger said 12 books by Janov aught to be enough, he may well be right. Janov has submitted umpteen serious papers to various institutions and only a few have been acknowledged. There is one of his papers published on his blog.

      Lastly, there seems to be a kind of self fulfilling circular argument that ‘marketing’ proves, which is that IF you have to try to persuade someone to ‘buy’ (into) something it must be something to do with reinforcing their defenses and distractions. It must be something to do with self deceit and delusion. Only recently has marketing been needed to sell anything. Check out Edward Bernays and the history of ‘Publicity’.

      All best

      Paul G.

  68. Phil says:

    I saw this article about Dr. Janov on “The Primal Mind” website which I’ve copied below. After all the negatively biased and misinformed articles around it’s nice to see something like this.

    The Primal Mind
    Exploring the primal roots of mental health
    The Passing of a Genius
    without comments

    Art & Bruce

    by Bruce

    Three days ago, the world lost one of the greatest psychologists of the past century, Dr. Arthur Janov, originator of primal therapy and Director of the Janov Primal Center in Santa Monica, California.

    I first “met” Janov on the front cover of his groundbreaking book, The Primal Scream (1970). I was 21 and deeply troubled and there he was with his dark eyes, handsome face, and curly hair, looking totally relaxed, promising hope. I had heard he had treated John Lennon and Yoko, and Lennon’s primal album was one of the most gut wrenching pieces of music that I had ever heard. There was no doubt when I read Janov’s book that primal therapy was exactly the treatment I needed to get better. In 1974, I entered into therapy at the Denver Primal Center and have never regretted it. Today, I am having another round of treatment at Janov’s centre in Santa Monica, all to good effect. I will be blogging more on this in coming weeks.

    In recent years, I became closer to Art (the name he preferred among his friends), offering to help him advance his therapy in the scientific community. He took up the offer wholeheartedly but he was pretty skeptical of anything coming of it. After all, he had gone through decades of ridicule and abuse in both the psychological and psychiatric communities. My best memory during this period was introducing Art to Jaak Panksepp, another giant in the field of affective neuroscience. Panksepp immediately recognized the logic of primal therapy – that early life trauma can have lifelong consequences – as he had observed himself in his animal studies. Although the two never went on to collaborate (sadly), Panksepp was profoundly affected by primal and went on to talk about it in conferences and in his books. After being ignored by almost every scientist Art reached out to, this was a real bonus for him. Art and Panksepp stayed in touch over the years, right up to the Panksepp’s untimely death earlier this year (April 18).

    Several years ago, Art attended a conference in LA on the cause of trauma and its treatment. He was keen to collaborate with a neuroimaging scientist which unfortunately didn’t come to pass. But I will never forget him walking out during a presentation by a “sensorimotor therapist” who professed to have discovered a means whereby traumatized patients could relive their traumas without becoming “retraumatized.” It consisted of little more than minor body movements coupled with a few tears. Art would have nothing to do with it, as he wouldn’t with dozens other treatments offered up by professional psychotherapists. He spent a good part of his writing career criticizing these therapies (see “Grand Delusions” on his website.) His term for many of these treatments was “booga booga”, a polite name for bullshit. Art was adamant (and I believe rightly so) that these treatments were non-curative and a waste of money and time. From the beginning, he held to the tenet that in order to resolve a particular trauma or psychic insult, to get rid of troublesome symptoms such as depression, anxiety, compulsions, etc. it was necessary to feel the pain beneath and not cover it over with a new set of defense mechanisms. No amount of talking, massage, meditation, fake screaming, eye movements (which Art called ‘voodoo’), psychedelics, shock treatments, drugs, etc. could effect a cure. The dialectic of primal therapy is that one must do the opposite of what your defenses want you to do, i.e. go into the pain rather than away from it. As he wrote in Grand Delusions,

    The only hope for cohesion, and lasting help for patients, is to address the generating sources of neurosis or mental illness. What and where are these sources? I believe that the conflict between the imprinted Pain of early trauma and its repression is the central contradiction that generates neurotic reactions both internally (physiologically) and externally in the form of behavior. Repression, or the loss of access to feelings and sensations, is an evolved function that allows us to survive unmitigated pain early in life. The pain, however, stays in the body, unavoidably – as unavoidable as the experiences that originally caused the pain. And the pain will perpetually fuel a dislocation of mental and physical functioning to keep itself unfelt, for as long as it remains unfelt.

    Throughout his career, Art held fast to these principles, reiterated time and again in fifteen books, plus a large number of blog posts. Today, primal therapy is exact and measured, a far cry from the primal of early days. Patients are followed closely from the beginning with physiological measurements (heart rate, blood pressure, body temperature), and many of the patients at the center (including me) are taught to “regroove” their feeling style so that later, higher level feelings are fully felt and integrated before lower, earlier “first line” feelings are allowed to surge forth. Art was always adamant that primal therapy should proceed in an orderly and coherent manner, with later feelings going first and earlier feelings following. I now see the wisdom in this, as it helps one to connect and integrate feelings and prevents first line overload.

    The last time I saw Art was at his second home in Palm Springs, Calif. We were gathered with several of his therapists and two scientists who were interested in his work. That was three years ago. Perhaps prophetically, Art was telling all of us that it was up to us to carry on the therapy. He never referred to “after I’m gone.” At one point, he looked me in the eye and said, “Kid, you have to do this therapy. It’s really important. Really important. This is your life, the only life you’ll have.”

    And so I have done so. Dear Art, rest in peace my friend. You have done more for me than you can imagine, and continue to do so through your books and blog. Thank you.

    Avec le temps, va, tout s’en va

    On oublie le visage et l’on oublie la voix

    Le coeur, quand ça bat plus, c’est pas la peine d’aller

    Chercher plus loin, faut laisser faire et c’est très bien

    – Léo Férré

  69. Jack Waddington says:

    Phil: The very system we live in is all about making a living (a buck).
    We don’t have to live that way. BUT changing it is an even bigger endeavor.

    Neurosis begets neurosis. So where do we puncture that “ball”?????

    That I feel is the first message. All else will follow from there. IMO.


  70. Margaret says:

    thanks for that posting. very interesting and well written.
    I would like to hear what Gretchen and barry think about that part about first ‘grooving’ the later feelings before going into the earlier first line ones.
    I am really curious about your views, gretchen, and would love to hear what you can say about this.
    in my personal experience I have never ever paid any attention to first or second or third line, just always went with the flow.
    if first line came later, it is only in a general way for me, as I think they seeped through all along in their due moments.
    a feeling never felt out of order so to say..
    and well, maybe over the years feelings did become more often baby wails, but hm, not exclusively so I thinktherefor I am so keen on finding out whether it really matters and why, or if going with the flow like I did could do for anyone, as maybe there are different more suited approaches possible for different kinds of people?
    all intriguing and important questions.
    have there ever been open discussions about this, or could you give us your personal views please?
    of course this is a complicated topic, but just in general would be nice.
    are the PI and Training Center mostly on the same line of approach, are there important differences?
    all what matters is their accumulated experience and knowledge should not be lost and forgotten!!

  71. Paul Garland says:

    the thing about 1st, 2nd & 3rd line theory is most crucial for people with a lot of brainstem damage. I am one of those. I could have died with what happened to me. Going straight into 1st line re-living can really screw people up.
    All those people in psychiatric units heavily sedated. . . Not to mention all those suicides. . . Primal could really help these serious cases if only the ‘professionals’ understood the theory.
    Art was into saving lives. So far, thanks to gaining a rudimentary understanding of 3 – 2 – 1 – 2 – 3 in myself I have not yet been tipped over the edge.
    But I’m still all over the place – gradually separating out my ‘melange’. . .
    Paul G.

    • Phil says:

      What I think is this can probably be a special concern for people mainly self primalling because of a tendency to sink into body sensations and early feelings, as there’s no one there to talk to. The result being later feelings and real life problems are kind of bypassed. I know I was doing this sometimes as an attempt to push my process along and found out it wasn’t such a good idea.


      • Chris P says:

        Hi Paul,

        thank you for the reply. I know many intactivists on Facebook. In fact, I checked and this Benjamin Lewis and I have 9 mutual friends.

        Out of curiosity, you mentioned that your dad was genitally mutilated and that you were able to put 2 and 2 together. I wondered if you felt like expanding on that? I am wondering exactly what you observed in him. It is absolutely the case that something radically bad happens to the psyche when infant boys are ritually mutilated.

        A psychologist by the name of Ronald Goldman has done extensive research. This is an abstract from one of his papers, “Infant male circumcision continues despite growing questions about its medical justification. As usually performed without analgesia or anaesthetic, circumcision is observably painful. It is likely that genital cutting has physical, sexual and psychological consequences too. Some studies link involuntary male circumcision with a range of negative emotions and even post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). Some circumcised men have described their current feelings in the language of violation, torture, mutilation and sexual assault….”

        I’m guessing that Art probably was genitally mutilated as most males in his generation were, regardless of religious orientation. He has made some minor references in his works to the harm of genital mutilation, but these are few and far between. It would seem to me that he could have easily devoted a chapter to the subject. The lack of references to this suggests a bit of a blind spot on his part. It makes sense that he would have understood the depth of the damage; recognized male genital mutilation as a source of major first line pain, but the curious lack of references suggests that he was not.

        Most people think of it as a harmless snipping of useless skin. And most people are unaware of the 16 functions of the foreskin, not the least of which is to protect the glans, which is meant to be an internal organ. And most people are unaware that the foreskin contains 10-15,000 fine touch nerves, which are cut away and after the foreskin is sold to cosmetic companies.

        By the way, fine touch nerves are similar in structure to the nerves at the tip of the fingers, the lips, etc. In fact, when infant males are mutilated, the foreskin has to be forcibly retracted because it is fused to the penis for the first couple of years of life until it naturally separates.

        We live in a society that allows this to continue pretty much unfettered and wonder why we have regular mass-murders?

        • Paul Garland says:

          Hi Chris,
          well done for mentioning all this here.You saved me writing it. I wrote on Art’s blog about it and he did not post what I wrote. I put 2 + 2 together there too.
          Let me repeat something basic about what I learned about epigentics:

          up to 7 generations of ‘epigenetically’ inherited trauma.
          Thus we can be ‘reliving’ parts of an ancestor’s trauma, or repressed from it without even knowing remotely that the lack of feeling at the end of your penis – or your fear of sex – or whatever problem you have or I have without knowing it – . . .
          -That you want it done to your son etc etc. . . If this ‘pain’ has been going on for hundreds or thousands of years down the line then we can presume from epigenetics that there is some ‘fearful interruption’ in the process of people’s lives which may be impenetrable. It could even result in permanent genetic changes in specific groups of people and thus result in permanent behavioral tendencies.

          I’m intact – my Dad said: “We decided NOT to have you or your brother done because we had heard somethings about it- were advised against it”. . . I was born in 1960; dunno what he heard. I doubt previous generations had it in our family. I believe there was a phase in UK before the last war when it became ‘popular’, like having tonsils removed.

          So the 2 + 2 is that despite being intact I seem to have certain similarities to my Dad. I notice things about him all the more because he DOESN’T notice them about himself. It’s very hard to put into words. I mean, knowing a bit about Primal Theory, epigentics and evolution etc kind of conjures up all sorts of potential insights. . . None of which are simple to express:

          Art explained that rage is the energy that gets us born, or rather gets us past ‘obstructions’ along the way. Research shows that the fetus has evolved to ‘need’ being born as a natural progression of gestation, turning around, becoming drier and heavier when the waters break, adopting the ‘bullet posture’ (my words) then getting alternately squeezed and starting to swim like a dolphin, hopefully in time with the contractions. . . (I speak as if I have relived all this, far from it). Art said the fetus ‘needs’ all these dramas successfully negotiated to become ‘normal’ because the fetus has evolved over millions of years to expect it all – various organs and functions become switched on as a consequence. Makes sense to me.
          It seems to me that many circumcisions are performed rather too soon after this ‘life changing experience’ (of being born) – as if circumcision could ever be done at any time without serious damage. But if done soon after birth, when the baby is still in a ‘merged state’, then the baby has utterly NO defenses to cope with the pain and indignity. Thus as a brainstem connected organ the penis and foreskin and it’s various parts are effectively THE baby. The baby becomes the PAIN. He becomes his enpained penis and also he becomes the severed part. He is thus ‘absent’ in part from there on – it is an ‘amputation’ which he can never be. Part of him will forever be missing without any remote consciousness of it or any possibility of retrieving what he never knew or fully felt he had. To mutilate there when the baby is still ‘merged’ is to effectively mutilate the entire baby and in a way which effects the entire sex function to boot. Such an experience therefore must induce a total repression and disconnect resulting in as you say: “Blind Spots”.

          In particular, the various researchers link ‘rage’ & ‘sex’. . .
          As we know the Limbic System grows out from the brainstem, thus this ‘absence and rage’ is carried up into the feelings as the rust colour of an iron nail is carried up into the branches from having been driven into the trunk of a sapling. Eventually this painful ‘NAIL’ with show rust in the flowers at the top. IE: the ‘rage and sex’ will be part of the belief system of the victim. He will not know any differently.

          Unless some miracle happens whereby the victim is totally held and totally loved immediately after this event, there is bound to be some profound permanent imprint. But what sort of parent would be able to do such excellent holding and loving having just had that intentionally done to their child? It makes no sense.

          Art’s book ‘Sex & the Subconscious’ indicates a lot about all this.
          Of course, it’s always easier to see a disconnect in someone else but not yourself. For that you have to ‘feel it’.

          All best,

          Paul G.

      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi Phil,
        yep.Classic PTSD / depression caused by yet another life shock followed by isolation leads to isolation leads to isolation leads to isolation. . . leads to more isolation and the ‘victim’ sinks lower and lower and lower, maybe into psychosis. . . .
        There seems to be a human group tendency to ‘isolate / scapegoat’ sufferer, unless we develop a voice and speak out about what happened to us. Then, you are compelled to sequester your stuff with a ‘specialist’. If you dare speak out publically, maybe you are a ‘raw prawn’, maybe even a narc and having a problem with demanding too much, being stuck in the past and needing to pull yourself together etc etc. . That’s the old zeitgeist repeated endlessly in ordinary society. With certain political international figures who fit the bill of narcissist, hogging center stage trying to get your own needs met just gets more and more difficult. A lot of people are talking about ‘alienation’ getting worse in our so called advanced societies. . .
        That’s a very shorthand way of describing the ‘human condition’ in a group context.

        I personally had too many stressful events leading up to my ‘breakthrough’ and have sunk way too low. Bottom of barrel comes to mind.
        In can’t get on with anti depressants. Tried 4 different types.

        Paul G.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Paul: You say:- “But I’m still all over the place – gradually separating out my ‘melange’. . .”. I don’t think our feelings are all over the place as I undsersatnd your referrence to it. Even though often for me, I don’t always have and immediate insight and sometimes never have one, related to any single feeling. There are many and some quite minor or even unnoticable, triggers to feelings. I see that as part of life and the nature of us feeling; this one minute then something very different the next, and not all feeling have roots in the past.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        That said, I do feel each class of feelings, we do experience in gestation, birth and early baby-hood. If the damage has not been too severe, then many of those feelings are not in-and-of-themselves traumatic.

        It’s a very tricky therapeutic process and I feel that is why Art insisted on training by him or his staff. I feel he saw early on that it needed a group of therapist to keep one another ‘straight’. Anyone working on their own can very easily slip back into old act-outs. We had a long history of them, and it is mighty hard to drop old habits.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Anyone; everyone: I’m still having this problem of posting a comment, if it is more than two paragraphs. It just doesn’t post. Then if I send it again it tells me it’s a duplicate copy and refuses to send. So I break it up and post it in two parts as seen above. Is it ME, my lap-top, or WordPress? Anyone had the same effect and/or knows how to prevent it???

          Still having problems trying to figure out my Android Smart Phone. I feel I must be losing it, or that in old age I’m becoming more stupid than before. I’ve taken some pictures of our new home and patio/garden and for the life of me am unable to send them from the Smart Phone OR transfer them to my lap-top. Even the manual is so fuckin cryptic. It must be me cos others seem not to have this problem.


          • Phil says:

            Did you have this problem when posting to the blog from the library?
            I saw if you ask Google this question a lot of info comes up. One thing is to try disabling all your plug-ins because one or more of them might be incompatible with WordPress. Or you could just try a different internet browser. I use Google Chrome and that works fine.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Phil: at the library I don’t remember sending long emails and in any-case I don’t remember if I had that problem or not I agree that might eliminate one case for the problem.

              Thanks Phil


        • Paul Garland says:


          well yes, which I why I intend to get proper therapy. But I put my kids first. I identified I have ‘melange’.

          But I never set out to ‘DO’ primal on my own. It just started happening in me spontaneously, triggered off by a growing mountain of present time stuff. . .

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Paul: What is proper therapy???? Tough question. The operative word is always “Feelings” and appropriately “Expressing” them. Ones own body takes us to where we need to go … if we can get out of our heads and let the bodily feelings take over. Remembering that the basic function of the brain is to organize and integrate feelings, thus allowing full and appropriate expression. All that rationalization and thinking stuff came AFTER WE BECAME NEUROTIC. In a weird sort of way it’s a gross act-out that I work on every day

            That said; another very skilled person to help us with the process and to give us a sense of safety is always a plus. If that is only a buddy, parent, friend, that’s a start. A trained and experienced therapist is of course the best of all.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              I commend you for putting your kids first … but there is another way to look at this:- Why not both you and your kids at the same time. If you have a good relationship with them, then your kids seeing you go though and expressing your feeling is no big deal for them (I strongly contend). However, I have to admit I never did bring any of my own or anyone else’ into the world or rearing any. So where do I come from … no other than my own feelings of being a fetus, baby, young child and reliving much of it during therapy.


              • Paul Garland says:

                Hi Jack, did you get the attached document I sent you by email?

                Paul G.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Paul: Not sure I did get the attached document. What was it about?

                  Maybe it’s just me losing it. Can’t decide whether it’ the document, or my mind. If it’s my mind, don’t re-send it, but if it’s the document it would be nice if you could re-send. 🙂 🙂 .


  72. Anonymous says:

    Had I the heavens’ embroidered cloths,
    Enwrought with golden and silver light,
    The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
    Of night and light and the half-light,
    I would spread the cloths under your feet:
    But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
    I have spread my dreams under your feet;
    Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.

    William Butler Yeats

  73. Margaret says:

    I liked that poem too, who posted it?
    could not find anyone’s name there..

  74. Daniel says:

    Let’s work out the thought process here:
    Hates Jews? Check
    Las Vegas bad? Check
    Completely batshit crazy? Check
    Subtract reason, carry the one…
    Las Vegas = Mossad

    • Patrick says:

      Sorry above when I say “even protective of time at times” it should have read “even protective of me at times”

  75. Margaret says:

    how about a paranoid psychotic drama queen troll?

  76. Daniel says:

    I’m actually sorry I brought it up, I was weak for a second there and couldn’t help myself. Let’s drop it for now:
    1. We’ve all been there and done that before so no point of going all over it again.
    2. The Primal community is grieving now because its founding father died just days ago. Whatever you or anyone else might think of Janov and his work, at least let’s respect that. Again I’m sorry for my share in disrupting that.

  77. We would like to apologize for the ” joke” posted on our website. It can only be described as base, unfunny, uneducated and cruel. Barry and Gretchen

  78. Daniel, I would not say you were weak and you should do or say what you like. I think you have been extremely patient under the circumstances. G.

    • Daniel says:

      Thanks Gretchen. I just don’t want to contribute to another vicious circle on the blog going nowhere, especially now when people are still grieving.

  79. Phil says:

    I wonder where that “up to 7 generations of ‘epigenetically’ inherited trauma” reference comes from. I thought epigenetics was a fairly recent discovery, certainly not up to 140 years ago. Maybe from animal studies? The proof would need to come from human studies to draw that conclusion.

    • Paul Garland says:


      forgive me, I will struggle to find the ‘epigenetics’ paper I read where ‘7 generations’ has been cited, but I did read it. Other papers say at least 3 generations. There is still much speculation based on the evidence which comes mostly from empirical studies combined with blood sample testing and disease propensity along generational lines. But that research evidence is compelling.
      Apparently the University of Michigan is running the ‘Genes For Good’ program. You can send them a blood sample and they will test you for certain things including I believe gene methylation (gene markers)? Which is a core part to ‘imprinting’ – so the theory goes. That is the key to epigenetics – gene ‘markers’ caused by environmental impacts, not inherited through the original DNA, but what get’s taqgged onto the DNA, specifically one of the amino acids, can’t remember which one.
      I am not a scientist, nor even a science journalist, but I do read up and follow stuff.
      I am a ‘production manager’ and have studied processes though, so tend to be genuinely interested in this kind of stuff.

      I learned all this mostly from Art’s Blog and following up ideas and links from there. He was my teacher as well as my friend.

      I bloody miss him now, more and more.

      Paul G.

      • Phil says:

        You don’t need to dig up that reference. It seems to me it’s going to be a difficult
        task for researchers to definitively separate out conditions caused by the environment as opposed to epigenetics. I wonder if I was tested, what would prove my DNA was methylated during my lifetime as opposed to something I inherited from my parents?

        I read that a propensity to obesity is now understood to be a complex interaction of genetics and the environment. Maybe a similar propensity to being traumatized will be found.
        How might this apply to something like circumcision? I believe the majority of boys I went to school with were circumcised, as was I. The operation no doubt would have been performed in a standardized fashion, very similar for all of us. So it could be seen as a kind of standardized trauma. But I wonder if all of us were equally effected by that procedure. I’m doubtful about that. Probably some of us were more sensitive to being traumatized by such a thing than others, for various reasons.

        • Paul Garland says:

          Hi Phil,
          What I got from Art’s blog was a clear insight into your question which I have quoted below:

          -“You don’t need to dig up that reference. It seems to me it’s going to be a difficult
          task for researchers to definitively separate out conditions caused by the environment as opposed to epigenetics. I wonder if I was tested, what would prove my DNA was methylated during my lifetime as opposed to something I inherited from my parents”-?

          The nature of the beast IS confusion between what you ARE (your DNA inheritance) and what happened to you in utero, during birth and early infancy during what Art called: “The Critical Period”-. This is all to do with brainstem development from conception to about age three; the brainstem DNA is ‘Plastic’ and can be methylated (and acetylated). After this period only very extreme trauma can result in further methylation and even that is debatable for reasons to do with ‘Resonance Down’. Art’s feelings about some Vietnam Vet’s traumas for example, (he treated several soldiers with ‘PTSD’) was that their ‘primary’ trauma was not the war but what happened to them in early infancy. Thus the unmet need and trauma are stamped in early AND ‘compounded’ later on, possibly resulting in ‘Resonance down’ later when triggered by shocking experiences such as brutal war. The methylation is ‘gene markers’ and changes the gene expression. It seems to be a facet of adaption to changing environments and thus an element of ‘Natural Selection’. That in itself is a fabulous insight. It suggests trauma is inevitable and we are ‘defended & adapted’ with it (not necessarily ‘against’ it) as part of the evolved life process. This might explain why some belief systems such as ‘Karma’ and ‘Original Sin’ tend to put the emphasis back onto the victim of trauma, suggesting for example that we ‘seek out’ later traumas as a way to heal older ones. Theories of recurrence etc. I personally don’t believe these as to me it seems another way to blame the victim, avoid empathy and thus avoid any resonance down in yourself.
          Three areas of research are needed:
          1, the bio molecular mechanism by which the stored trauma as a sensation of pain is disconnected from the visual memory (where there is visual memory) BUT can be ‘re connected’ ie: “accessed” and turn from a bio molecular marker encoded through gene methylation into a fully connected feeling running along actual neural pathways.
          2, how that is inherited, because research shows it indeed can be and is inherited without the original DNA changing at all. That is the central tenet of your question I think. It leads on to the fascinating prospect of how DNA mutates IF the ‘cellular pressure’ from methylation is the culprit (as Art suggested) and appears later as cancer and other diseases, a consequence of repression / suppression / oppression. That equates loosely with 1st, 2nd & 3rd line respectively I reckon.

          I have every confidence that these mechanisms WILL BE discovered as science technicians develop ever more sophisticated equipment and processes for detection; (a simplistic example of this is that methyl has been detected in human tears – or has it)? These cellular micro bio chemist technicians are becoming forensic psychologists/pathologists by default. But I reckon it will take a good Primal researcher, (a Primal Mind) to notice the significance (as always in such matters) when these discoveries are made. That old: “Map / Territory” dichotomy emerges again & again methinks.
          3, the neuro – bio chemical pathway mechanism of how the ‘Psychologic / Defense / Belief’ system keeps neurosis intact. This has been better researched than 1, but still needs greater clarification at the bio chemical level and again I have every confidence that these things will be uncovered at that bio – chemical level but again will require correct contextualisation by a Primal Mind.

          As Art banged on about endlessly: “It’s all about the 1st line”. As long as we don’t lose sight of the 1st line then we are always open to the Primal Dimension and from that a correct course can be navigated and useful insights follow on. This ‘1st line’ is what the mainstream just refuse to accept despite the evidence staring them in the face from their own science laboratories. We as patients, would be patients, Primal Minds and commentators are no exception, we all carry the same biologic processes, so often resulting in denial, delusion and self deceit. Few escape it, I don’t.

          All best to you Phil and to others here.

          Paul G.

          • Phil says:

            It’s interesting stuff, thanks for sharing all of this. It has me wondering if it’s possible to heal from some traumas passed down as methyl markers from previous generations.
            Those are important lines of research you mentioned; finding the biological mechanisms of how trauma is stored, how it’s inherited, and how it can be re accessed.
            But what’s unfortunate is that the more basic studies haven’t been done which could have helped with the acceptance of primal therapy as a preferred method. Those would be large outcome studies showing that patients have a reduction of the symptoms which brought them to therapy, and an improvement in their lives. Proving the biological basis is good, but the missing piece is proving that the patients are getting better.. Recovering from things like depression, anxiety, doing better in relationships etc.

            • Paul Garland says:

              -“But what’s unfortunate is that the more basic studies haven’t been done which could have helped with the acceptance of primal therapy as a preferred method”-.
              Abso Bloody Lutely.

              But I also believe that is the destiny of all great discoveries – they get knocked together from other bits and pieces in a bit of a one way process. Primal is a massive case in point – I mean what would have happened if Art hadn’t seen Ortiz and the ‘Baby Act’?
              I will also say this. From my experience as a timber engineer (structural carpenter) working through an entire ‘Whole Process’ from ‘Tree to Product’. I can confidently say there is NEVER only ONE person who gets the deal done. Furthermore, despite the vanity of the supposed leader, architect, engineer, carpenter, sawyer, tinker, tailor, soldier, sailor, rich man, poor man, beggar man & thief, all of whom may believe they are the masters or mistresses of the destiny of their product. . . I can safely say it is only by everyone looking over the shoulder of the next person in the process and ‘re interpreting’ the progress made by their neighbour does the blessed thing get made and delivered and paid for by an appreciative and satisfied client.
              It always seems to me that some poor bastard ends up doing the graft of correctly ‘GROOVING’ the product from other semi efforts along the way.
              Does the plywood maker really know he is just making an element of a chest of drawers?

              So it is with science: does the micro biologist know he has helped Primal Therapists cure people of neurosis? Probably not.
              Thus the real crafts people are the best ‘scavengers’ of rough diamonds discarded or dismissed by others.
              Another ten years and there will be yet more to add to Primal from the science community and more for Primal to add to the mainstream psychiatric professions.

              It’s inevitable, but the routes by which it happens will always be circuitous.

              Paul G.

              • Phil says:

                I hope it will happen; that someone will “rediscover” primal in the future, after some years,
                or even better yet, right now.
                Of course, there is extra resistance to primal because of the nature of the discovery and it’s implications. It’s more of a major discovery than anything else I can think of (especially when it’s working well for me). Evolution was a biggie which still has a lot of resistance, and even there, the resistance is probably often mediated by primal pain. Evolution was and is a huge challenge to religion, a major turning point in history. But people go on with their beliefs. They can ignore it, or find a way to incorporate it into their belief systems.
                People if they are exposed to it, of course, can be quite resistant to the idea of primal therapy and theory, because of what it implies for them personally, and especially for trained practitioners of other therapy types, who are challenged by it both personally and professionally. Those are very difficult obstacles to acceptance. It’s very possible with this in mind, even good outcome studies wouldn’t have done the trick. I’m sure Dr. Janov must have had good reasons for taking the course he did with his discoveries and research.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Phil: My take on why Primal got rejected: not initially, but later when Art insisted that anyone practicing it would first need to have undergone the therapy very carefully and intensively. that is contrary to the way our education qualifies most things. If you’ve gone and got a degree in it you are then deemed and expert and qualified. There’s no degree … yet … in the ‘feeling feelings’. How would we be able to examine them in a lecture room

                  Since neurotic mankind had always viewed most things from “the head” … having to re-learn how to approach things through feeling, was counter to the ways most things had been done since we became neurotic (my contention some 20 to 30 thousand years ago) That simple … if it is indeed simple (maybe just words from a ‘simpleton’).


                  • Paul Garland says:

                    Hi Jack,
                    Art wasn’t the first to say the ‘three centers’ must do their own work. The idea we are ‘three brained beings’ is not new. The fact they evolved and developed sequentially is relatively new.

                    You are possibly referring to an evolutionary idea that we are a ‘wrong turn in evolution’. You’re bound to have heard that one before I’m sure.

                    That ‘crown’, that ‘dome’ on the top of our head is not very ‘natural’ is it? Could it be some weird mutation? Primal theory explains it is yet a further defensive outgrowth from the limbic system as does evolutionary theory. But was it necessary?

                    Many of the various religions have their own ‘esoteric psychology’ and refer to the ‘Holy Trinity’ in some way or other. They place great importance on our ‘three brained’ nature as if it has been spiritually ordained. So far, Primal tends to knock that one on the head (pun intended). Thus I am inclined to agree with your view and look forward to reading both your books.

                    All best,

                    Paul G.

                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      Paul: at the expense of ‘nit picking’ I’ll respond.
                      I firstly agree, that Art was dependent on past work to come to many of his conclusions from much work done in the past. That applies to all developments in all areas of living and new (so called) ideas IMO. The major one for Art was Freud .. We’re none of us an “island”

                      However I do feel also that a great deal of communicating our idea are more often than not “convoluted” … “complicated”.

  80. Paul Garland says:

    I find it hard to believe that Art was merely motivated to be ‘perfectionistic’ about the therapy our of self promotion and therefore for money.

    I find it easier to believe he was just another genuine guy with a damn good feel for the truth when it smacked him in the face. He was not ‘Teflon Man’ either.

    In the East End of London they would have called him a bit of a rough diamond.

    He went to his death bed clearly stating in many different ways that it is very possible to start out entirely on the wrong track and get ‘results’ which look like real primals but aren’t. Then you become ‘grooved’ and more defended than you were before but in a constant state of suffering which maybe you deceive yourself is actual Primalling.
    Because I have not attended the therapy (I have problems that have kept me here in UK) I have serious doubts about what is happening to me.
    I currently still feel sure I need proper supervision regardless of what people say about self primalling – either for or against. So, I’m not assuming anything.

    It’s those ‘Icebergs’. Those things I don’t know that I don’t know. Those hidden traumas too painful to feel, to even have more than a sneaking suspicion of. . . The one’s that patients recount in their testimonies in Art’s books. . .

    The ones where they say: -“I never suspected or knew”. . .

    Paul G.

  81. Leslie says:

    I have really appreciated reading the recent blog entries from Vicki- mental/emotional state of mass murderers etc., Gretchen & Barry – on internet trolls – and Phil – on Art & Bruce.
    Thank you for posting them. They help highlight and explain some pertinent topics.

    Also, thank you Paul for sharing your admiration and closeness to Art. Nick’s moving tribute and Gretchen and Barry’s comforting posts showcase Art as a genuine man, a genius and someone who will be remembered and missed forever.

  82. Otto Codingian says:

    i gave life a chance. life remains a bitch. not really. i am not burning up in wine country. however, i truly believe mr. trump is going to start a horrific war. generals will feel obliged to obey him. no one is marching against this, though. not sure why there are so many gullible morons in this country. i thought i was the only one.

  83. Otto Codingian says:

    Jack, your problem with posting to this blog is that Russians are having difficulty in understanding which box you fit in. could you please tell them what you are about, so they can move onto the 2018 elections. ha! (actually i don’t think i am being paranoid in feeling that the russians are deeper into our web than anyone could possibly imagine). watch rachel madow.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I’m not yet in the box (coffin) just coughing and hoping that it doesn’t put me in “the box”, yet awhile.

      I doubt the Russians would be interested in me or my writings. I feel they have enough of their own problems, BUT I do feel they wanted Trump in the white House just to create havoc in the US and in that respect they succeeded.


    • Linda says:

      COL ( Chuckling Out Loud) I enjoy your black humor Otto, even though I detect the underlying source of suffering.

  84. Otto Codingian says:

    my russian is not too good. i put “deer licks cat” into google translate, and youtube brought up a CAT licking a cat. олень лижет кошку

  85. Otto Codingian says:

    the russians seem fixated on genitals. i have never seen a cat with such big balls, maybe because most cats here get neutered.

  86. Otto Codingian says:

    i really wanted to learn to speak russian when i was in junior high. listening and repeating to the 45 playing on my old rca. alone in my garage bedroom, trying to get the pronunciation down. alone.

  87. Paul Garland says:

    I write to my Primal fellow and fellowesses because I need to be heard: but particularly for people who have been institutionalised. Also for Phil especially who has ‘nudged me’:

    ‘Iceberg in a Melange’:
    My psyche has been trapped in boarding school ever since 1968.
    Have you ever had that sinking feeling when you wake up in the morning and realise you are not in the arms of Mater but living out the wishes of Pater?
    You realise you have to go to work filled with dread.
    I keep holding on. . .
    I made some changes recently when a really good woman put me onto a Legacy Page about ‘Melange’.
    Then Art died and she told me via email -. . . At first it was like one of those postcards I got from my Mum at boarding school – like a message in a bottle, washed up on my shore. Except Art was my best teacher at school – y’know? -The one that makes school bearable. So now at boarding school I am bereft too.
    But I’m not still at boarding school am I? Surely not?
    Before my teacher died he told me that people who have been through ‘institutions’ where the strain and trauma just keeps on and on and on – like one of those freight trains with a hundred trucks moving past a level crossing – after a while it’s all the same freight truck. He said it can be difficult to pin down any one single event as a trauma to re live and all one gets is a ‘collective’ feeling of the whole damn thing, maybe every morning when awakening, trying to motivate oneself for school, I mean work.
    Missing the arms of Mater and living out the wishes of Pater. Dreading going down to school assembly from the safety of my bed in the dormitory. . . Dreading going to work.
    As a ‘recovering addict’ I made some changes recently. I realised I had indeed been sinking down into 1st line stuff through being totally isolated. Like the child who ends up in sick bay at boarding school as an ‘escape’. . .
    But there is no escaping the wishes of Pater and I keep holding on. . .

    I should have been balling my eyes out in the safety of my bed, I should have been screaming for my Mum. My school chums should have known I needed to be safe and let me stay put. But no. They were also marching to the beat of Patriarchy and lining up in assembly, ready for cognitive battle on the warfield of ‘learning’. . .
    Right inside this marching drum beat was also a lot of my 1st line stuff. The safety of my bed was not really safe and soon the Sadist who ran the place had me in his office for beatings. Ritual beatings about my ‘sexual behaviour’. . .
    I had been reported for ‘unacceptable behaviour’. . .
    So not only do I keep hitting an Iceberg but it’s happening in a melange as I wake in the morning, desperate for the arms of Mater, compelled into the march toward Pater at work. All that was fully concretised in the supposed safety of my bed as I lay awake all night wanting my Mum but waiting for ritual beatings from the Sadist.
    I suspect he also had been circumcised, my Dad had a similar charm on the veneer of his Teflon coating. The Sadist had charm and could disarm the parents with a flick of his moustache and a smile. . . The smell of his expensive aftershave was like the fumes of exotic hashish. . . Parents ‘lapped up his oozing charm’. Just as long as he could get your son into his office for ritual beatings. . .

    Take care Phil and thanks for the nudge.

    Luckily I have ‘flexible hours’ and therefore the time to ball for Mummy this morning, fully realising the problem I faced and the problem still facing me, every morning.

    Paul G.

    • Phil says:

      It sounds like boarding school was a terrible nightmare. I’m sorry you had to go through all of that. I’m glad if I nudged you in a good direction,
      Take care,

    • Jo says:

      I appreciate you writing about boarding school Paul, as I identify with facing ( at some point) daily the awful feeling of wanting my mama..that is what it comes down to. As a boarding school survivor myself, another feeling is my anxiety..I guess that is the feeling of dread that comes up constantly..
      I have always remembered the shock of my parents leaving me, 7 years old, on the front door step..the nurse (matron) saying “wave bye bye”.. but it wasn’t until several years into primal therapy that I had access the emotions of being abandoned. It’s an ongoing process.
      Your description of having to suffer beatings as well sounds unbearable.

      • Paul Garland says:

        Thanks Jo,

        It’s important to talk about these things as left unmentioned they fester and get linked inappropriately to other later traumas. Thus one can end up controlled by your own pain triggered endlessly by outside traumas. Forever a ‘Prisoner of Pain’.

        Paul G.

  88. I’m only going to make a short post here. It’s easy for people to venture off to their own worlds and life issues here on the blog, yet I must point out that Janov’s passing and all the ramifications of it should remain prominently discussed on this page. This is a crucial “fork in the road” for Primallers.

    Where do we go from here? Who will be the main groups and individuals carrying on with Primal for the future? With the world being markedly crazier than than I witnessed even a scant 15-20 years ago, it seems as though these questions need to be mulled over more than ever now.

    • *Yes, I carelessly double typed “than” in my last paragraph.

    • Larry says:

      I agree those are interesting questions UG. Personally I don’t think Primal Therapy is going to save the world. People will have to save themselves, and hopefully Primal Therapy will be there as one of the tools to help them. I can imagine the practice of the therapy sputtering and dying out in a generation, then being rediscovered and coming to the forefront in a big way when society is more ready for it. I just hope there are enough sane people that the world muddles through it’s growing problems without blowing up.

      I just read in the Economist that Stanislav Petrov, “the man who saved the world” died on May 19th at the age of 77. In 1983 he managed the crew of 200 computer operators in the secret Serpukhov-15 early warning facility near Moscow. On the wall a giant screen lit up a map of the world, pinpointing the 6 American missile launch areas with 1000 missiles pointed at the USSR. On Sept 26 that year the wall lit up indicating a missile launch. It would arrive in 12 minutes. Any retaliation had to be initiated at once. Scared stiff but doubting that it was really and attack, he phoned his superiors to tell them it was a malfunction of the warning system. Then a second, third, 4th and 5th missile launch was indicated, suggesting 100% probability of attack. Still, his hands shaking, he reported to his superiors a malfunction of the warning system, not an attack. He only had his gut feeling to go on. Later it was found out there was a malfunction. “The satellite had been fooled by the sun’s rays reflecting off clouds high over North Dakota, which had two launch areas.” He was a scientist with military training. It is speculated that a career soldier would probably have passed on the message without thinking. His superiors were embarrassed by what he had done, and how he had showed them up for the flaw in their system. He died in poverty.

      • Phil says:

        So we came close to nuclear annihilation. I can believe this, we’ve come close several times and are closer to the edge with Trump as president.
        During the campaign Trump asked, if we have nuclear weapons why aren’t we using them.
        He also wants to spend a lot of money expanding the nuclear arsenal:

        That we can have a president like this doesn’t give me much hope for the future.


        • Larry & Phil, if you want to see what unending hell and utter devastation from nuclear war that Mr. Petrov saved us from, here is a link to the “Threads” movie I talked about the day Art died. Ironic that the film was made one year after the Russian false alarm incident when virtually no Westerners knew about it at the time (1984).
          If you decide to watch it from beginning to end (about 2 hours), make sure you’re emotionally prepared for it. Sine I am giving proper warning ahead of time, I am not responsible for any severely adverse emotional effects upon the viewer. Also note some of the UK’s Queen’s English language conventions might be confusing to foreigners (a “fag” is a “cigarette”, “coney” is a “rabbit”, etc.)

        • Larry says:

          We also came right up to the precipice in Oct 1962. It required the unanimous vote of three, but one cool headed senior soviet nuclear submarine officer voted against launching nuclear missiles even though they were under attack by US destroyers and had every reason to believe that nuclear war had started.

          • Larry says:

            In that incident the subs were submerged near Cuba during the Cuban missile crisis.

            • Phil says:

              We’ve been very lucky. I’m afraid the day will come when a terrorist group gets a hold of nuclear weapons. As technology advances, but not the population’s mental health, things become more dangerous. How soon will everyone have the capability of launching armed drones?
              “Yours is No Disgrace”
              “Silly Human Race”

      • Daniel says:

        Funny thing. I came to LA for therapy in Autumn 1983, around the time Petrov was saving the world – a pretty amazing story I’m hearing now for the first time thanks to Larry. During the first few days in LA I had nothing to do because I didn’t know anybody there and still didn’t get settled.

        So I went to the movies. And having too much time on my hands I saw some of them more than once. One of them was ‘War Games’ starring Matthew Broderick as a kid hacking into a military computer for which actual war and game-playing was the same thing, nearly starting a world war.

        So it turns out that at the very same time Petrov was facing his dilemma in real life the movie portrayed personnel at the war room facing the exact same dilemma he did. Just as in Petrov’s real-life case the movie computer was simulating a Russian attack and somebody had to convince the generals that this isn’t a real one.

        Just because it ended without a major calamity we tend to forget how dangerous the Cold War was, and by projection how dangerous the current NK-US situation is, especially with the dubious figures at the helm.

        • Omg ! Daniel I’m speechless. Gretchen

        • Larry says:

          That September, my girlfriend (soon to be wife) and I, both in PT at the time, were on a camping trip in California. In a parallel universe very likely we were all incinerated 34 years ago and along with it all of our hopes for Primal Therapy, and only a stark, charred landscape exists where LA now pulses.

    • Larry says:

      In the 1950’s scientists showed that eating dietary cholesterol does not raise blood cholesterol levels. Yet we remain afraid of dietary cholesterol. Also for a long time the conventional dietary advice has been that high dietary intake of fat leads to increased cholesterol levels. The Framingham studies begun in 1948 and thousands of research papers written since showed no connection between dietary fat and blood cholesterol levels which medical researchers believed existed. The findings went against orthodoxy and were suppressed. “It is now increasingly recognized that the low-fat campaign has been based on little scientific evidence and may have caused unintended health consequences.” (The Complete Guide To Fasting, 2016, by Fung and Moore.)

      Primal Theory is an upheaval in psychology and despite the evidence of it’s therapeutic benefit I think it will take longer to gain wide acceptance than did the less revolutionary idea that dietary fat is not harmful to blood cholesterol. Adherents to conventional wisdom believe in it religiously despite evidence disproving that wisdom.

      • Phil says:

        You may be right. Primal therapy is not only an upheaval in psychology but also goes against cultural tendencies towards repression of feelings and childhood trauma.
        As far as diet, people aren’t catching on that added sugar should be avoided in prepared foods and drinks. Over many years as dietary fat was reduced, sugar increased, especially high fructose corn syrup. I’m not seeing products coming out which reflect this; the emphasis remains on low fat.

    • Otto Codingian says:

      i answer at bottom.

  89. Jeff says:

    I’ve just returned from a trip and seeing all of this. Knowing how difficult it can be to make anything in life to have true impact, I am grateful for all of Arthur’s instinct, initiative, hard work and perseverance to make Primal Therapy a reality. It changed the course of my life for the better. Barry, Gretchen, Nick, Vivian, Mark, and fellow patients I’ve done the therapy with have most directly helped change my life for the better.

    I’m glad that there is a place here to counter the overall glib, or biased, obit media coverage from the past week.

  90. Otto Codingian says:

    never mind. how about a wake?

  91. Patrick, “You will have to see what you can do about that” Really ? You are a bully and a coward not to mention dishonest and this is just another one of your bizarre tantrums! You want to threaten me? I advise you that you have gone too far ! You demand your disgusting and insane posts be reinstated! Oh wait I have an idea, why don’t you go to the person whose blog it is and see if they can do something about that, oh wait that’s me! You are an entitled troll and you actually believe we have to listen to your ravings. We don’t! You are a guest on this blog, you don’t seem to get that. Don’t you ever threaten me again, ever!! Don’t speak to me or any one else here in this abusive manner. You don’t seem to get that your theories have escalated as many have told you they would. You are shocked and dismayed no one has spoken up about the unfairness of your posts being cut. That’s because they are asking they be cut ! No one wants to hear you Patrick. This is not the Patrick show. You need help and the people on this blog have tried but frankly it’s worse not better. By the way thanks for the list of Jews who committed sex crimes. I agree a disgusting problem . Consider yourself lucky there are no such sex scandals in the Catholic Church! You believe you can assault people into listening to you ? You can’t, you only further alienate them. Believe what you want , no one cares, start your own blog and spare us your tantrums. Another piece of advise.. I have all your posts over many years and I assume you do too. Take them to any lawyer you choose and ask if this is not hate speech, trolling , anti Semitism, Homophobia and Racism. I can assure you it is all of that.. You are not entitled to be here . The key word is entitled. You don’t believe that well, look it up. You think because you say something it’s true well it’s not. Only in Patrick world. You talk about power a lot I notice but the only one concerned with power is you. You might want to consider your need to believe that all violent events are staged is your own fear that these things could actually happen. I advise you consider dealing with your own fears and your feelings of being powerless. As for being an outcast here. No one but you created that. No doubt you create that in every situation. I truly hope the people in your life find the courage to tell you the truth. You are out of control. But either way you need to leave and don’t ever threaten me again. I promise you that is a mistake. Gretchen

  92. Actually what you said today and previously constitutes a threat . Believe mre I have checked. Lest you think I am telling people not to speak to you I encourage anyone who would like to hear all of your views to contact you through your email. Or posssibly there’s another blog you would like me to put your posts on. I would be happy to, let me know but I am done with your tantrums and abusivness. You need to stop worrying about the chosen race, those you feel are more powerful than you , those you are jealous of etc and focus on the ugliness inside you. You are always in a rage and it does not serve you. You need to listen and stop talking. You need someone to be straight with you. Lastly you need to know this. You know nothing about Primal therapy, Janov The Holocaust or any number of things you go on about . Nothing! Get some help

    • Patrick says:

      Eff you! You have talked to some people have you? A few Jewish lawyers or Jewish liars. Same difference most of the time. You have talked to people I challenge you get legal with me and see where it goes . You have HUGE skeletons in your closet

  93. At least your not anti Semitic! Lol !

    • Patrick says:

      Yes ‘antisemitism’ is a very real thing. And cause and effect here child try to follow it has to do with how they BEHAVE! And that includes your behavior and the PI people might stop wondering why it did not succeed again your ‘behavior’ Simple!!

      Jews often use the fact they have been expelled from over 100 countries as proof of ‘anti semitism’ yes it’s proof to me they ALWAYS act like the circumsized damaged freaks they are WHEREVER they are. So yes I am an ‘anti-semite’ with very very good reasons

      • Paul Garland says:

        I’m not sure why your posts keep appearing. Maybe because admin are still giving you some kind of chance. But to me, it looks more like admin are giving you the rope needed to do the proverbial with. I surely hope you don’t, after all, this page is to help people step back from self harm.

        I happen to agree with the notion that many violent crimes are staged. I also agree that many violent circumcisions lead to many more violent crimes and to aggressive manipulations and mind games including the ‘victim game’. I also agree this can become a ‘culture’ and even a religion.. . .

        On Art’s blog a fellow blogger pointed out that without getting to the source of your pain (my pain, their pain) such ‘conspiracies’ whether true or false become an obsession.

        I get obsessed that the world hates me, particularly my boss and my ex missus. So, in defense, I hate the world back again. . . You said you are Irish, well I rate the Irish as brilliant ‘stand up’ comics with a flair for self deprecating humor. I myself prefer to do ‘sit down’ English satire. I bet you £10 English you can’t do self deprecating humor better than I.

        Calm down Patrick, I have a weak bladder and might piss myself. . .

        Paul G.

  94. Jack Waddington says:

    What makes Patrick THINK he knows better than the rest of us???????

    I’ll make a stab at it ………. “a very fucked-up neurosis”.

    Sadly, that will make him even more mad at me and the rest of our “tribe” ….. ‘sheeples’.

    Talking of sheeples; we have, just outside our garden gate, a great piece of grazing grass field, for me to graze on. I love it … I love it. I MUST be a sheeple. Inline image


  95. Good I’m glad you finally can say the truth. Now I advise you worry about your own skeletons and focus on why you have become such a toxic person. In the meantime the post before this last one is called extortion. I tend to think you would be the first to hire a Jewish lawyer. Now it’s time to go and possibly focus on less ranting and more listening. Patrick you are not a Primal patient. No one is forcing you to be here. What do you care what the rest of us feel about Primal? It’s none of your business. If we feel helped, great, don’t worry about it. Focus on you. Surely you have other things to do. Oh and the Primal Institute is getting close to fifty years old.

    • NOT a 'troll' says:

      The Talmud is thousands of years old and it’s still racist disgusting literature. What does 50 years prove child you have so much to learn. Even this charge of ‘antisemitism’ is a LIE Judaics are not even ‘Semites’ the Palestinians are true Semites they are the true inhabitants of Palestine not these imported Khasarian circumcised and circumscribed freaks who now are running a state of terror there. See what happens when Jews are put in charge of anything…………………….it does not work. Europeans ‘knew’ that in the old days they realized letting Jews get power is just slow suicide. As primal was for at least TWENTY people. You are just a functionary I have little or no respect for you. My bad I suppose for falling so hard for another Jewish hoax. Still I am not the only one the holohoax has about everybody fooled and it has gone on from there. I do not see a good future for the world with these freaks in charge. Which they are

  96. Larry says:

    He’s going off the deep end, living more and more in a world of fantasy. Nothing good ever comes of that.

    • Patrick says:

      Oh blah blah blah go and ‘cry’ some more and please somebody or other by doing that. Larry you are like a child a child who never grew up Cry some more after split milk you little dope. Don’t worry about me don’t patronize me you are nothing to me. Shut up now
      For all this primalllng you have all kinds of problems mental and physical I do not need your ‘advice’

    • Phil says:

      I’m noticing more and more things are hoaxes to him, less and less reality. Not a good trend.

  97. Daniel says:

    Gretchen, I’m so sorry you have to go through all this and like I said before feel a bit guilty for helping to escalate the current situation by getting into the subject matters Patrick brought to the blog.

    And Patrick, you keep talking about Gretchen’s tribe. Are you sure she’s Jewish in the first place? If I remember correctly her last name is Castle which sounds rather English to me. We’re very poor on castles never having owned many. So it’s not our shtick. We can design a hell of a moat though.

    • Patrick says:

      You own LOTS of castles, while in England I visited one of the Rothschilds disgusting wealth and built while the Irish were have an actual holocaust the Famine caused exactly by Rothschild economics The same ‘economics’ that is ruining the world

      Gretchen I dunno is supposed to be 1/2 Jewish whatever that means.It doesnt matter the PI and Janov are Judaic in so many ways victimhood, excessive past orientation, cult of pain and misery and complaining. VERY Judaic esp the actual way it is done. That’s my main gripe.

  98. Since you refer to me as ” child” you won’t mind me calling you little man will you, interesting but victim is how I would likely describe you. You are the ultimate victim, you just dont see it. Go back to the start and read your posts. You are the victim Patrick and it’s time you take responsibility for your toxic hateful behavior. You have become an abusive bully. There’s no reason to be here. You hate everyone, you don’t believe in Primal , you do nothing but criticize so go! It has nothing to do with you. You can’t even allow people to grieve. What’s more you are a narcissist. You know everything but truth be told you don’t know me, or Art or anything about most of the things you go on about. What’s more I think you know it!

  99. Margaret says:

    I end up feeling sad about all of this.
    and it struck me as being strange to start adressing people with ‘child’, sounded like some faint voice from his own past or something, as if he was ever humiliated in that way..
    but the present has turned out well, sad, for being so very out of tune with his own reality and reality in general, living in a continuous kind of angry paranoid nightmare and imaginary fight seemingly.
    setting himself up constantly for all kinds of rejection..
    is a desperate meaningless fight really better than the loneliness of your life Patrick?
    hope you can find some positive focus again somehow.
    I agree with every single word Gretchen said, she gave you some very good advice really.
    And I tend to agree you know all of it, but that is getting covered up by your solution to rant and look for any kind of confrontation, easier than to look at your own truth and to do something for yourself and your own life.
    it does make me sad, but the choice where you go and what you choose to focus on is entirely yours.
    it is never too late to seek some peace of mind, go back to the farm I would advice you, or whatever part of nature you like. Life is short so stop wasting your time like this.

  100. Phil says:

    Here’s new article by Bruce Wilson at “The Primal Mind” that I thought might be of interest and worth sharing.

    The Primal Mind
    Exploring the primal roots of mental health
    The Worst Comparitive Psychotherapy Study Ever Published
    without comments

    by Bruce Wilson

    While reading through several newspaper obituaries on Arthur Janov, one name kept coming up over and over: John C. Norcross, professor of psychology at the University of Scranton in Pennsylvania. According to Norcross, primal therapy is little more than trendy psychotherapy that arose in the fevered sixties, and Janov was “a classic instance of being the right charismatic therapist at the right time.” And to further demonstrate his ignorance, Dr. Norcross says in the New York Times, “There is no evidence that screaming and catharsis bring long-term emotional relief.”

    This comment is repeated again and again in obit after obit, merely parroting the NYT review. But the review also states:

    Much of the psychotherapeutic establishment now regards the therapy as marginal. A 2006 article by Dr. Norcross and colleagues in the journal Professional Psychology: Research and Practice reported that their survey of more than 100 “leading mental health professionals” had found primal therapy to be “certainly discredited” — together with treatments including angel therapy, crystal healing, past-lives therapy, future-lives therapy and post-alien-abduction therapy.

    “It’s both a discredited theory and treatment in mental health,” Dr. Norcross said. “Today, I look back at it as an unfortunate but understandable product of its time: believing that pure emotional release would prove therapeutic.”

    Those are pretty strong words. After all, if you deem something to be “discredited” you should have extensive evidence to back it up, right?


    This survey enrolled 101 so-called mental health experts to assess 59 treatments by questionnaire. “Experts” were decided by criteria such as doctorate-level education, fellows of the American Psychological Association (APA) or American Psychological Society (APS), current and former editors of scholarly journals in mental health, members of the APA Presidential Task Force on Evidence-Based Practice, and chairs or editors of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM). In other words, no one who had ever practiced primal therapy was included. Overall, 66% of respondents were supporters of cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) or “eclectic/integrative” therapy. In other words, these “experts” represented the dominant wing of the psychological establishment, which has always been critical of primal therapy and the notion of repressed memory.

    The term “discredited” was based on the following criteria:

    We operationally define discredited as those unable to consistently generate treatment outcomes (treatments)…beyond that obtained by the passage of time alone, expectancy, base rates, or credible placebo. Discredited subsumes ineffective and detrimental interventions but forms a broader and more inclusive characterization. We are interested in identifying disproven practices.

    The criteria for making the discredited ratings were left to the respondents on the basis of “several types of evidence: peer-reviewed controlled research, clinical practice, and/or professional consensus.”

    On a scale where 1 =not at all discredited, 2=unlikely discredited, 3=possibly discredited, 4=probably discredited, and 5=certainly discredited, “primal scream therapy” was rated as 4.51, i.e. “probably discredited” and halfway to “certainly discredited.” Therapies deemed as “unlikely discredited” included eye movement and desensization processing (EMDR) (2.88), laughter or humor therapy for treatment of depression (2.83) (I kid you not!), psychosocial (nonbehavioral) therapies for ADHD (2.85), and thought-stopping procedures for ruminations/intrusive worry (2.25). The only therapy regarded as not at all discredited, by a narrow margin, was behavior therapy for sex offenders (1.97).

    Stunning ignorance, I know. But take a deep breath.

    In all the therapies listed, except the cognitively based therapies, cognitive behavioral therapists were more likely to rate them as discredited. Not only that, but most of these “experts” were not even familiar with many of the treatments. And yet they felt competent to judge them. With regard to “primal scream therapy,” 6% were not familiar with the therapy. Actually, I would say zero percent were familiar with the therapy because it is not called primal scream therapy!

    Nowhere is the “evidence” mentioned that substantiates these “expert’” decisions. I assume they just cherry picked whatever papers fit their therapeutic orientation, or perhaps they just gathered around the water cooler and made up that “professional consensus.” As for “primal scream therapy” they had obviously done no research to find out that primal therapy has nothing to do with screaming.

    So this is the sort of misinformation about primal therapy that is circulating around the psychological community and the mainstream press. Decades ago, Art Janov decided to distance himself from the mental health establishment for this very reason. Despite his many efforts to convince his colleagues that his therapy worked, he was met with ridicule and outright defamation. Since then, primal therapy has existed on its own, quietly advancing as the decades have passed, and some respected psychologists, physicians, and neuroscientists have come to appreciate its effectiveness: Louis Cozolino, Jaak Panksepp, Paul Thompson, and Gabor Maté, to name a few. And although the therapy still needs to be researched, it will be done without the participation of these “expert” clowns.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Great comment. I feel that the question of the moment has to be:- how do we perpetuate and advance the legacy? Now that Art is no longer there to do that. I don’t know, BUT I will continue to pursue that end … albeit that is highly likely a compulsion of mine.

      Jack Waddington

    • Paul Garland says:

      Hi Phil,

      Is this is Bruce the science journalist who has supported Art for decades?
      I find it so hard to read these criticisms of Primal – they make me feel sick. I think it’s because my Mum and Dad used to play word mind games with me to put me down. The language to do that is universally similar amongst certain types, particularly the right wing lot. . . It has a certain ‘smell’ and certain ‘fallacious logic’. Makes me feel sick, scared, angry and aggressive in response. Another of Art’s bloggers described it as a seamless twisting of reality.

      Recently I have developed a flair for N V C (non violent communication – Marshal Rosenberg) and become quite the ‘forensic psychologist’ & ‘cross examiner’. Obviously that’s a defense but it’s an honest & therefore useful one I believe, particularly for Primal people with leaky gates who need better cognitive defenses against all that scapegoating BS out there.

      I am convinced this ‘fallacious language structure’ has developed over centuries, if not millennia as a verbal and cognitive defense driven by repressed trauma. I find the intellectuals can be the worst. Infact one could say that the mainstream psychotherapy ‘industry’ (CBT & Mindfulness stand out) exemplify this fallacious logic structure almost to a T.

      It’s all about denying history. It’s all about being ‘ahistoric’.

      Paul G.

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks Phil. I had seen about that “study” and it seemed so arrogant, I wondered how the fuck these people managed to come up with such garbage judgements. The article makes it a lot clearer.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Vicki: I also feel the arrogance of these kind of crits of Primal. Being arrogant myself I know that feeling.

        Why I feel so strongly the Primal notion will not die; is that someone somewhere in our capitalist system, will pick up say:- “The Primal Scream” … feel its been long forgotten and pretend he/she discovered it all on their own … in the hope of making a killing. BUT will, inadvertently, rouse some other person to reveal that it was first discovered in 1967. Consequently, reviving that initial enthusiasm that happened after Art published it.

        It never ceases to amaze me just how we neurotics fail to see the unintended consiquences. A case in point for me is Donald the Trump. There will be a ‘back-lash’ to his presidency in some very fundamental ways. Not necessarily coming out of the US, but perhaps from some other country’s leader, or even another country’s popular thinker.

        The potential is always there as I feel our recent human history (going back 5,000 years) atests;
        starting perhaps with Copernicus and Galileo.


  101. Vicki B. says:

    Patrick doesn’t know how to do anything but hate all Primal now, because he was unwilling to stay in therapy and feel his anger about what therapists and patients were telling him. So that anger has been endlessly twisted and turned into hating just about everything and everyone — just getting more and more destructive, and even further removed from whatever hurt he once might have felt.

  102. Margaret says:

    hi Paul,
    you make some very good points, although I think more people than you think are surprisingly open to the primal idea when in a conversation examples of feelings are mentioned.
    but I htink one major setback to the recognition of PT is that it is not fast and cheap.
    I am studying psychology actually at a Dutch university and there is a big preference specially from the administration going over the money and medical insurances to go for brief ‘patching up’ treatments, behavioral, cognitive etc.
    primal therapy goes deep to the core and roots and one has to want to unravel one’s own feelings and history.
    I must say my first breakthrough was triggered by Barry encouraging me to lay down and adress my dad, which took a while before something happened, but then almost by coincidence mentioning to my dad ‘I am a girl’ set me off, repeating it over and over and starting to cry.
    it was an intense feeling, but no heart wrenching pain but it was crystal clear to me right away it was a pure and straight connection to my younger self.
    I guess there are as many ways as there are people, although some patterns and basic feelings are similar of course.
    primal might be useful for most people but does not seem necessary for all of them, which is ok.
    I guess there is a part of the professional field that will keep most interested in this track anyway, to the true deep and more real self too many of us got out of touch with at some point in order to survive.
    it is what it is, and all we can do is to express ourselves about it if we feel like it, and for me it is an important goal if I can do something to promote it I will, but maybe I will never really manage to do so, but it keeps me interested in the studying as right now I am chewing my way through a very very tedious thick course of organisational and health psychology.sigh, sooo boring and tedious, all about questionnaires, assessments, team building, work stress, stress models etc etc ad infinitum with all kinds of statistical studies to spice things up, ha!

    • Paul Garland says:

      Oh dear, poor you.

      I am considering doing a psychology degree because I have gained some new energy and motivation; even considering going to train in Primal. However, all that tedious main stream stuff could well just blow my gates and bring on a massive tantrum act out where I tear up all the texts and burn them in a giant bonfire. . .

      Only kidding. . .

      Paul G.

  103. Hey Daniel, Honestly you did nothing wrong. I could see this coming from day one as it continued to escalate. I was raised with no religion. My dad was Jewish and my mother was not , so officially not considered Jewish. But even if my mom had been Jewish I would have known little about it as religion was not a priority for them. But you know how that goes, one drop of Jewish blood is enough for some ! Gretch

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: that was a very interesting comment you posted.
      I remember in the mid 60’s I had these two women friends, both American and both Jewish and both very intelligent in my ‘rear’ wiew ‘mirror’ 🙂 . I admired them both.

      One day they were having a conversation while I was in their presence:- “what is this thing about being Jewish?” It had quite and impact on me, and got me into thinking:- who am I culturally, nationally, and all the other connotations?

      I now see it as a silly question and would (best as I can manage) rather ask myself what am I feeling? In the end, we are more alike other humans, than different.

      My mother was forever reminding me as a kid:- that Jesus Christ was a Jew. As a consequence of that; Christians are worshiping a Jew. How few of us would put it that way.


  104. Patrick says:

    Gretchen Scissorhands the Wicked Witch strikes again

  105. Margaret says:

    who is the weakest, the weak sheep or the one struggling like hell to get somthing from those sheep?
    your hypocrisy is revolting, and you seem to really take pleasure in rolling in the filth and spreading it as much as possible.
    boarish, boerish, whatever, you clearly choose to behave like a real jerk, your struggle is worse than pathetic.

  106. Margaret says:

    a huge act-out is a better way to put it.

  107. Paul Garland says:

    firstly, to get me to take you seriously, you could try refraining from ‘ad hominem’ attacks.

    Secondly you could try ceasing assuming others have not access to this information. I personally am already aware of these historic facts and I also doubt the current narrative about the so called Holocaust. You are not informing me of anything I don’t already know.

    I believe you are engaging in a fallacious defense called ‘Straw Man’, or a variety of it.

    The essence of straw man arguing is to set up a contrary argument that has some superficial similarity to the main argument that you wish to denounce; thus you can include the denunciation of the main argument in your denunciation of the lesser one.

    I have encountered this in many people and even engaged in it myself when I was less psychologically healthy than I am now.

    There are many fallacious defense arguments. All of them can be categorised under the heading of ‘associative reasoning’. Associative reasoning is when one can know some words and how to rearrange them to mean something different depending on how you feel; thus words become a defensive technique primarily. But associative reasoning never articulates a consistent argument. In other words (pun intended) merely using words as a defense to prove to yourself that you are correct whilst others are wrong is no argument at all.

    children do this when challenged over something painful to them. Stupid & controlling parents & carers are often the cause of this. So, if you learned this associative reasoning with fallacious arguments at the age of about 4 or 5 years it is possibly because you were abused and then blamed for it with similar fallacious logic. My parents did the same thing to me. It is a type of brainwashing used by narcissistic parents and carers to confuse and control children.

    So to be clear then: Your main argument is that because Janov is a Jew he must be using guilt as a manipulation to make money out of guilable people. Your lesser argument is that the so called Jewish Holocaust never happened and was deliberately fabricated as part of an international psy opp.

    Even if the lesser argument is true is still doesn’t prove the greater argument.

    On the contrary. My personal experience as well as others is that Primal Therapy in particular has relieved us ‘victims’ (of controlling bullshit) of our inability to articulate the truth and also relieved us of the confusion when confronted with ‘bullshit’. Thus Primal Therapy is the antedote to associative thinking and reasoning, to the use of fallacious arguments and most of all to the tirade of ad hominem attacks you appear to be addicted to.
    When I was suffering from undiagnosed cPTSD I was prone to occasional explosive ad hominem attacks when confronted with ‘bullshit’. As a direct result of these ‘knee jerk reactions’ I ruined the very best relationship I ever had and managed to help her ‘bullshitter’ friends spread malicious gossip about me. Infact, they let it be known I am probably a coercive narcissist. My researches and my conventional therapy proved to me that I am NOT a narcissist but suffering from cPTSD or as Janov would say: “OVERLOAD”.

    But I still ask myself if I am a narcissist. Apparently narcissists never ask themselves that question. I often break down and cry for the problems I have caused others; do you?

    Seeing as how Gretchen has proposed you are infact a narcissist I feel it is appropriate to ask you that question and to give you a legitimate way out – which is that you are ‘OVERLOADED’. Thus you have a choice based on Art’s opinion that narcissists are rarer than people think but ‘narcissism’ is much more common, in so far as anyone can behave a bit narcissistically from time to time. We all love a bit of attention.

    I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you are very overloaded.
    What went wrong with your therapy?

    Paul G.

    • David says:

      Well expressed Paul, I like this.
      I worked for Patrick on a couple of jobs; we never got to know each other. But I liked him. Maybe my maternal ancestral Irish genes. Ever meet someone that brought up feelings of security. I had a teddy bear that did that for little me. I felt that. I like Patrick, maybe, because he’s never had a go at me. But also because his pain as presented is something I understand. Some people whistle passing graveyards at night, some people throw stones at the markers. It doesn’t threaten me.
      Before Primal I was the defender of all outcasts. In my practice I genuinely innately assumed the position that every hopeless youth was one I must as 100% positive potential for achieving, ‘ normalcy,’ of behaviour. And if I wasn’t smart enough to help I could at least love them. That should be a birthright, to be loved and respected.

      There has never been a place for me on this earth, unless I earned it with excessive effort and self sacrifice. Having mostly abandoned my once unconscious martyrdom pursuit, my list of, ‘ friends,’ has shrunk because they all required me to give even when inconvenient and be satisfied with crumbs in return. I had prostituted myself.
      So even with all of the insights, and I believe in PT, I still have no place to belong. But I’m 71 so time will resolve my grief.

  108. Margaret says:

    despite all the spam on the blog I feel like talking a bit about what matters to me, even at the risk of being bullied, or attempted to be bullied, as all of this is beyond worth of attention by now.

    I had several bad nightmares last night, I am not gonna go into detail here now.
    a bit of a starting flu adding to the discomfort probably, at waking up I felt terrible, physically not that much but the dread of the dreams was still all around.
    felt up to nothing, but also without escape, and thinking back of one dream especially, I laid down on the couch after having canceled my appointments, and as the mere feeling of the dream was ‘Nooo, noo!’, I only had to softly utter those words to get into the feeling. partially, as it seems a huge one, birth related, as all what went on was mostly being in a fetal position in terror, mouth wide open in a silent breathless kind of scream, with the feeling of ‘nooo on my mind. some tears started rolling after a while of this, until the feeling subsided, without any real crying or anything happening, but well, even with this tiny fraction of this feeling having been allowed to come up, I felt such a relief from the agony I was in before …

    that is the essence of the gift of primal therapy, to be able to let the bad stuff come up gradually and process it, instead of lingering forever in the worst stage of all, the pre-feeling stage in which it needs to break through but has not been able to or is deliberately or otherwise kept down. all that pressure, the terror colouring reality is awful, I am so glad I could start my day feeling more up to it afterwards, granting myself an easy morning before what I needed to do in the afternoon.
    it seems kind of new this kind of feeling giving me some relief, as before this it has merely been a part of other feelings, the curling up and mouth opening, without clear sensible value, although it always felt right to just let it happen and to go with the flow.
    it is reassuring to feel even one’s nightmares become productive in their own unpleasant way.

    • Paul Garland says:

      thanks, that rings bells for me. Reassuringly – a fraction at a time.

      Paul G.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. Good for you. I recall Janov saying that the baby feelings were the biggest pay-off in terms of physical and emotional relief and making a change in someone. It was for me. The feeling of suffering and vulnerability and please, please touch me so I know I am all right and safe and un-alone. Also many times there is no crying at that level.

      • David says:

        I jumped and went to being small as a defense. It needed to be said to me, but the other complication was my justified fear of ever being, ‘ wrong,’ loss of hope of me ever being special, believed. After leaving LA I spent probably a year scrutinizing feelings, first yelling at myself, then finally being kinder to me telling myself to stop thinking. Not knowing how to, ‘ do it right,’ was dangerous. sorry, running on I know.

    • Vicki B. says:

      Margaret, Paul, & Sylvia — Yes, that very much makes sense. I have things come up in that way too, seemingly crazy dread out of nowhere & frightening dreams, that go somewhere else if I follow them, in bits. Or a little more specifically this morning, triggered rage in traffic, that lead to part of an early feeling of being treated like garbage, by someone who wanted to hurt me.

      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi Vicki B.
        driving cars seems to be the biggest and most universal human act out of all time.
        Almost perfectly mimicking the entire prebirth, birth and post birth events.

        the bloody things even resemble ‘womb / incubators’. We seem to be eternally trying to ‘GET OUT’. . .

        Paul G.

    • David says:

      I have been off here for quite a while, Margaret, due to an accident resulting in torn nerves, both ends of the spinal cord. That and that it often brings up not belonging anywhere, to anyone, at unbearable intensity. I read your post and you allude to, ” Spam,” on this blog. Is it hacks, and trolls ??

    • Linda says:

      kudos Margaret !!

  109. Margaret says:

    sorry for the delay, I had missed a couple of your comments in my Inbox.
    it is nice to hear you like your new place so much. and it is actually ‘dankuwel’, or dankjewel, more commonly used the latter one.
    and the giver might say alsjeblief, or alsjeblieft…
    but well, there are many shorter words that go equally well, good luck, and congratulations with your zest for life.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Magaret: Dnkuwel for the lesson in Dutch. I have heard many times the response alsjeblief. Another problem for me is the pronunciation. A lot will depend on how long I live … If I live to break the world record of 134 then I might have a real hang of it … assuming that I remain living here in der Nertherland.

      Languages were never my thing, but I am in great admiration of those that can speak more than two. My Jimbo is one of them. Take care Margaret and have some sweet dream if you can.


  110. Margaret says:

    ok Jack, will go now and try to do so, nice dreaming I mean, slaapwel, of slaap leaker, M

  111. This post is not meant to entertain or impress anyone. More of an impulse post such as the ones Otto regularly makes.
    Even today, two weeks later, I’m still a bit taken aback that Art has passed. Maybe even a slight state of denial.
    There was always a sense of Art being an omnipotent, God-like figure hovering over the rest of us.
    I’ve always associated such lofty designations with his being pseudo-immortal in terms of lifespan.
    Even at its peak popularity, the Primal movement has always been a fairly small one against the backdrop of a staggeringly enormous, crazy world it has no control over.
    Now it seems as though we’re a bit like a leaderless group of confused children with no centrally evolving philosophical guidance to draw upon.
    Yes, I had a lot of mixed feelings about Art, both positive & negative. On balance, though, I wished he had stuck around a while longer.

  112. Otto Codingian says:

    wtf. oh, impulse. like trump. boy i adore the guy. he is underappreciated. lets all give a hip hip hooray for the commander in chief. he has a secret plan to make america great again. hmmmmm.

    • Otto: Were you insulted because I said you make posts on impulse? It just seems that way to me, and it’s not a big deal or a bad thing to do, in my opinion. Post all you want.
      I didn’t have Trump in mind when I mentioned you. That’s a completely different & more dangerous situation there by far.

      • Maybe a better way of explaining it is you seem to post whenever the mood strikes you while I am more cautious. Not a big deal.

      • Phil says:

        Guru, I think it would be a great thing if Trump would post here impulsively. It would be better then his tweeting. He could release some of his frustrations right here in writing. Like: “I’ll never be as great as Obama no matter how hard I try”. or “Mueller is driving me crazy, I’m having nightmares” “I have to do something about him” “Daddy help me!”

        • His ego would never allow him to say those things any time, anywhere. Therein lies the secret of his ascent to power. If he was humble & meek at any time we would have never heard of him. Salesmanship & grand superlatives are the name of the game, always..

        • David says:

          perhaps DJT is an example of Dr. Janov’s differentiation between intellect and intelligence. Can you imagine the therapists, ‘ competing,’ deciding who would be his primary therapist. Vivian once told me that it would be impossible for me to conclude there are bad people. Well, I’ve evolved in that area, because I think he is pure filth.

          • Vicki says:

            David, there was something I read once, I think by Art, that Primal Therapy wouldn’t have worked for someone like Richard Nixon. I forget what adjective it used, something combining dishonest & manipulative, and reminds me of the term “used-car salesman”.

            • If dishonest foundations have taken you to the pinnacle of success, why would you pursue any form of honesty? The world is so corrupt to the core that selective forms of dishonesty is not a big deal anymore, anyway. It’s not as if some Sky Wizard is watching us & keeping score. Just make sure you can get away with the deed before you do it, though, to avoid complications.

              • No one should excoriate me for the above statement, for it is a very honest one about dishonesty.

              • Vicki says:

                “If dishonest foundations have taken you to the pinnacle of success,” then you have lost yourself, whatever integrity you once upon a time had, and can no longer be trusted by anyone who is not similarly diseased, and you are not fit to lead anyone. It is only “not a big deal anymore”, if you stop caring and stop feeling, about the harm done.

                • Vicki: It feels as though you’re referring to me when saying I’ve stopped caring & stopped feeling about the harm done. This made me think of the 39,000 search results I found on Amazon regarding Hitler’s atrocities and three search results I found regarding the 70 million auto traffic fatalities worldwide since WW2.
                  That’s what I was referring to when I said our society is irredeemably corrupt to its rotten core. In my case, it’s not that I’ve stopped caring because of some ephemeral “disease”, but rather a pragmatic approach to a truly hopeless situation.

  113. Otto Codingian says:

    i wish i could get an impulse post going in group. too bad, not possible.

    • Linda says:

      I don’t have a clue what “an impulse post going in group” means but I totally and without reservation support all of your entries on this blog.

  114. Otto Codingian says:

    jack, if you slap those goats, they won’t give you any milk.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Yep!!!!!! I made that mistake, and they refused me, even after talking nice to them, and I loved in particular goat’s cheese. Especially when fresh.


  115. Paul Garland says:

    Hi All,

    here’s a satire I wrote for Art’s blog a while back:

    -“The Dad’s Prayer”-:

    -“Our Dad, who is at work all the time,
    hello be to your name (because that’s all we have),
    your house will eventually be owned,
    your efforts will be done,
    here at home as in your workplace.

    Give us a day of your time Dad,
    and a crust of bread Dad,
    and please don’t let the sibling rivalry escalate whilst you are away,
    as we forgive our snotty siblings for their vile behaviour; Dad.

    Please advise us on this Dad. . .
    Coz we don’t really want revenge,
    and need to be delivered from eternal repetition.
    For we believe your place of work is as powerful as here at home. . .
    & anyway, there’s no one else to lead us. . .
    for ever and ever. . .

    Us Men”-.

  116. Jack Waddington says:

    This is meant to be a continuation to my response to Paul Garland earlier in the blog:-

    I personally attempt always to try and find the simple way. (being a simpleton 😦 🙂 ) Easier said than done. I also feel Art was able to wrap up most of the developments since Freud with ‘Primal Theory’ that was so simple; even for children after age seven, or there-about, are able to understand it. I contend, was the reason it was popular in the beginning.

    It is so easy to muddy the waters. I felt even Steven Hawking in his book “A Brief History of Time” was neither brief, nor succinct. Just my opinion, of course.

    We seemingly only give credence when there is BA, Ma or PhD.


    • Paul Garland says:

      Well Jack,
      seeing as how you’re at least a decade if not two decades older than I, I can at least ‘hope’ that I gain better and more appropriate access to my repressed feelings and live longer than I have so far lived. . . Possibly even catching you up and maybe even my Dad who is 89 and still knocking back a bottle of wine every night. .

      Particularly after he has been to visit my Alzheimers Mum in his ‘Smart Car’. .

      However, I have been around the block many more times than my Dad in 31 years less time than he has had, so, with the wear & tear on my brain & body, I doubt I’ll make it as far as he.

      Unfortunately I seem to be addicted to a complicated life, caring part time for my disabled son (he’s improving), pandering to my ‘agent’ at work (daytime nightmare), and recovering from a serious breakdown which tends to make me so tired on occasions I cannot get out of bed.

      I was offered a place at Sheffield Uni to do an Art degree back in 1979 and because I was so ‘homesick’ after years at boarding school, I couldn’t bear to leave my hometown. Of course back then I had utterly no idea what the genuine cause of my anxiety was.

      To think that placement would have been absolutely free. I think there was even a grant for accom. costs. . .

      Ho Hum.

      Paul G.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Paul: No you’re 3 decades my junior. I’m 84 coming on 85 in the very near future.

        You’re doing well using the blog and if you can continue it and let it take you were it will, there’s a good chance you could outlive your dad’s age.

        I don’t thing the right word is addiction, as you put it, to the happenings in your life. One can only get addicted to pain killers, and as I see it, you’re not using your life style as pain killer. You may well have some pain killers; but so far I’ve not seen any.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Had you, or the rest of us, done something different, there’s never any telling how that would have manifest itself in where our lives might have gone, but you obviously had a talent for the arts. That said I feel that rating people on their higher education is not who the real WE are. There’s so much ‘fluff’ out there about what constitutes what we are supposedly are. I buy little of it. I try hard to NOT judge anything or anyone. I found that stating it as my liking or disliking puts a who different perspective on things, and certainly makes it less arguable for others in be-rating me.

          A few like me, quite a lot don’t like me, (and that’s ok by me), but to all the rest I’m inconsequential. I did not always think and feel this way, as was demonstrated in my desire to become and actor. The insight was I wanted to be somebody and not as my dad thought of me, as a “nobody” Should I do any acting I feel I would be a better actor than ever in my past, but I now have no desire to pursue that path … but if it came along without me having to push for it, I would take it to maybe get some extra cash for that assumed inevitable ‘rainy day’.


  117. Margaret says:

    Guru, I don’t entirely agree that more humble people can’t become famous and successful. Obama is kind of self confident but also humble for example.
    and Paul, Sylvia, and Vicki thanks for the replies, it touched me feeling accepted and I enjoyed reading all of this mornings comments.
    I think it is very difficult for a therapy like Primal to go along with the current demands for ‘scientific validity’, like how on earth does one create proper control groups similar to the ‘test’ group, and how do you compare cure or progress with therapies that by behavioral or cognitive methods ‘patch up’ people as to not pay attention to their pain?
    don’t get me wrong, I think these therapies have their own usefulness in many cases but they are basically so different .
    maybe the more psychodynamic approaches could more easily be connected to the primal theory eventually .this moment interests me to search for ways into the very cognitively and behavioral kind of university I am studying at.
    by using their own tools and references it might be easier to get somewhere if only to get some points of agreement.
    but well, who am I s
    allowing strong emotions could be incorporated in many approaches really, which might happen anyway bit by bit, as there is by now plenty of scientific proof already that what is referred to as ‘disclosure’ immediately diminishes stress levels significantly and for a period of time..
    that is the road that for smiley, but it is still interesting.

    • Margaret: I’m not saying humble people in general (or at least those who give the APPEARANCE of humility) cannot be successful. I am saying that humility was not Trump’s way to material & political success, and it never will be.

    • Paul Garland says:


      -“how do you compare cure or progress with therapies that by behavioral or cognitive methods ‘patch up’ people as to not pay attention to their pain”-?

      I think Bruce Wilson & Peter Prontzos have the answer to that. In short you have to play the science community at their own game. But that is expensive. Art talked a lot about this on his own blog. In fact, if you want to take your own question more seriously then read Art’s Blog. All of it. Not all the posts from us. But seriously, if you trawl for and collect together all the ‘citations’ from other studies that Art forwarded onto his blog (in blue) you will have the ‘raw materials’ for your answer. You France and tell her what you are trying to do, she may well find someone at her end to help you.
      Unfortunately I discovered that the ‘FIND’ button on Art’s blog doesn’t work, for me at least. That’s very annoying.

      Because I am interested in the sociological aspect of Primal these studies are incidental to my particular ‘work’.

      You see, I was brainwashed to be a ‘leader’ in society at elitist boarding schools, thus things like group dynamics and personality typing interest me more. How ‘Primal Pain’ drives that absolutely fascinates me. I have often thought that Primal might take another turn for training by including a specialised degree with a multiple aspects, including personality typing, sociology, psychology etc. I believe the Open University allow this kind of ‘Make Your Own Degree’. .

      We know all too well that repression ‘casts’ shadows, which then bias people’s perception away from, NOT toward the truth. Thus the science community has for years been stuck in it’s own stuffy intellectualism which always reduces feelings to something outside their own field of experience. This is ‘par for the course’. That’s how human defenses work.

      It’s bloody annoying and affects absolutely everything from the sorry state of (so called) mental health to the price of cabbages.

      All best.

      Paul G.

  118. Margaret says:

    very sorry to hear about your accident, it sounds pretty serious! how are you now?
    and well, a lot of spam from just 1 trollish kind of person..
    silent now, hopefully reflecting for once.. I don’t count on it though, brooding and preparing another attack seems more likely, but well, I am an optimist.

  119. Otto Codingian says:

    another little tear. that is all, i cant let go anymore. Rescued Moose Does The Most Special Thing For The Man Who Saved Her Life

  120. Otto Codingian says:

    phil, i think you are right. mr. trump IS SHOUTING “help me daddy!”

  121. Otto Codingian says:

    guru, not insulted, just hurt. i am hyper-sensitive to anything that even APPEARS to be criticism. i used mr. trump to deflect. you knew i am his 7th personality, didn’t you? that is the one in which he ALMOST sounds like he cares about the dreamers.

  122. Margaret says:

    thanks Linda, smiley!

  123. Margaret says:

    Otto, what did that rescued mouse do for the man?

  124. Margaret says:

    I agree, I had already thought about well, choosing to be or remain dishonest has a price of never entirely good about yourself anymore as well.
    then your words about integrity kind of made me think about that word, which seems also to be about integrally being one kind of person you can feel ok about.
    but of course U\Guru has his point if he refers to the state of mind some persons are in already after most part of their life living that way…

  125. Margaret says:

    just heard on the news a porn tycoon Flint, promises a huge monetary reward for anyone coming up with enough proof to get rid of Trump, because he did sabotage the environment agreements and risks starting a nuclear war. who would have thought a porn tycoon would be so likable?

    hearing the news about the fires in California, sounds terrible, poor people, and animals, and thanks to the brave firemen and women.

    and a very bloody terror attack in Mogadishu. some would say another just a few seconds on the news but equally or even more terrible than all the other attacks as there is less of a social safety net and less medical care there.

    I heard the news today oh boy….

  126. Otto Codingian says:
    20 years after welfare reform, are Ohio’s poor any better off?
    i am already volcanically-angry after 4 months with little or no therapy, since my dear wife came back from ohio, but this article really boils my blood. rich assholes in charge of everyone else’s money creating horrors for their fellow citizens, while they live in the lap of Christian luxury. they have no idea what jesus taught, just that god said man should be killed if he sleeps with man. larry flynt, i would do it for free. hopefully the anti-trump news people keep pushing until that creep is out of office. but there would still be a christian ohioan dick with a stick up his ass in charge.

  127. Otto Codingian says:

    indiana dick, i meant. same difference. they probably all talk about their well-to-do stinking white asses as “salt-of-the-earth”, friendly, common-sense, responsible Republican citizens. what is their phrase, i can’t think of it, and it is not on this list
    Political Phrases Used by Republicans, personal-something maybe

  128. Otto Codingian says:

    dear wife will go to visit son in ohio for 2 weeks at christmas. i wont shed a tear because i cant get close enough to anyone to feel sad at their departure. but i wont shed a primal tear either, because it will take me those whole 2 weeks to decompress from her constant neediness, before i even try to listen to music and bring up feelings, and then she will be back. and while she really is needy beyond belief, that behavior triggers my own take-care-of-gramma behavior, that my grandmother somehow pushed me into, in my childhood. and that behavior of mine, and having lived like that in my childhood and in 40 years of marriage, makes me livid and hateful. you know, hammer-through-someone’s-car-window anger, when some asshole gets on my tail on the road. which for some reason, is just about 75 percent of all drivers in L.A.

    • Larry says:

      Man that is a tough spot to be in Otto. I’d feel pretty trapped and demoralized if I couldn’t get to feelings when I needed to.

  129. Otto Codingian says:

    and so i eat way too much to numb myself, and try to carry on, one day at a fucking time.

  130. Otto Codingian says:

    and dont get me started on the clintons either. their thieving asses don’t give a hoot about those poor ohioans either. stupid stupid hillary. she could have been a worse president than trump, if that is even possible.

  131. g man says:

    This thread started out as a tribute to Art Janov but descended into ridiculous personal and religious abuse on art and gretchen by some waste of oxygen. What difference should it make what religion or race u are? There are good and bad among all colours and creeds. U admin guys its not enough to delete posts u need to ban him or he will end up driving people away from the blog. Im all for free speech but just as we don’t want everyone agreeing about everything this guy should not be allowed to spout his bile and negativity. Think someone said that he doesnt even do PT so why is he on this blog? U have been patient and tolerant with him but enoughs enough time to pull the plug on him. Don’t feed the troll!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      G Man: The problem with an outright ban, I feel. is not possible, as there’s always a way for that same person to get back on, another way. Sadly, I was the one that inadvertantly got him to enter the blog, for the sole purpose of him trying to humiliate me, with other bloggers.
      The rest is history.

      I will add to this one observation I came to through his attempts to humilite, degregate and all the other things he made, attempting to do towards and about me. Several true … ‘my truth’. I eventually told him that his remarks about me did not bother me, as I saw CLEARLY, those were his feelings; not MINE.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        So!!!! he now leaves me alone and instead. is now taking it out directly on Gretchen and sort of ‘combing’ the rest of us into the fray … his fray.

        I did attempt to argue some of his arguments, for the same reason that you made, but was asked to cease and desist from responding dirctly to him, and have since only done so once; assuming my memory is still somewhat intact.

        If I am upset, hurt and/or disgusted at and with him, that becomes my own feeling. I will own that feeling.


  132. g man says:

    I know he can create a new username , think he might already have a new one just in case of a ban. The attack on the talmud kind of give his cover away lol. This guy makes Hitler look like a tree hugging hippy. Well if he can’t be banned then everyone should just put him on ignore . If u don’t take the bait he’ll get bored and go play somewhere else.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      g man: I don’t see that as a solution either. If I know him at all; it’s not an “attention” issue. He’s found a forum whereby he can act-out his feelings on the pretense that it’s a true expression of them. The other issue is what he terms “Free Speech”. My take is ‘free speech’ is not the means to getting and expressing ones feeling … either past or current feelings.

      Since he did come to the United States for the purpose of doing Primal Therapy; he feels he understand it and can improve it … least-way that’s how I read his comments.

      If I understand WordPress it’s not the change of a user name, but the change of the email address.
      BUT don’t take my word for that.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        A further additon to my last cooment, since the word “free speech” gets banded around.

        ‘Free Speech’ is the title of an article in the United States constitution. Meaning that one is permitted to voice their opinions, feelings rationizations, or whatever, without fear of any form of retribution.

        There is a tendency, as I see it, for ‘free speech’ to be equated with what Freud coined “Free Association’. My understanding from reading Freud and many other pysychologist:- is meant to mean:- ‘allow the mind to wonder wherever it wants to go’. That is a whole world if differnce to “Free Speech”, which is IMO involves PROMOTING ones idea, thinking, reazsoning, et al.

        From my understanding of Janov, he permitted ‘free association’ for the purpose of connecting the “wondering mind” to the feeling driving it. Something of a difficult concept to get ones mind around.


      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi all,
        I’m not a Primal Therapist, but I am an experienced group facilitator and have studied the subject. I believe abusive people can be given opportunities to reform by inviting them to see what it is that they have done abusively then waiting to see if they offer some remorse. It’s very simple and a universally agreed policy the world over.

        Possibly one of the biggest mistakes a facilitator can make is to assume that the abuse must be in the context of the group’s own belief system.

        The research shows that speaking about people in the third person when they are ‘present’ is manipulative. Amongst trained facilitators nowadays, it is regarded not only to be ineffective but it’s also counter productive. It is in itself potentially abusive as it objectifies that person, regardless of whether that person has been abusive or not.

        The current zeitgeist on narcissism tends to repeat an old mantra that you can make a narcissist ‘go away’ by ignoring them. The idea being that they will eventually cease obtaining their narcissistic supply from you and therefore have to go elsewhere.

        Maybe this is true in 1 to 1 relations. Particularly with men who stalk women. But narcissism is a very long word with even longer connotations for most of us. Art made the point that narcissists are rarer that you think but that narcissism is much more common.

        The Primal view of narcissism that I got from Art on his blog is that of a specific developmental stage of unmet need. Particularly around the toddler age where the child is trying to form a separate and personal identity by ‘reaching out’, grabbing, touching, sensing, and HAVING IT ALL. Toddlers just want to have it all don’t we? 😉
        So how many of us have really superseded that grasping, getting, having, owning, stage of separate identity? I mean, I haven’t. But it’s waning thank goodness, because I am feeling old hurts from back then.

        Possibly the worst realisation any professional can have, the bitterest pill to swallow is that their profession is another possession. A possession born out of the ‘need’ to satisfy the need to be one’s own person and to satisfy personal need. It’s not merely ‘identity’, but also personal need. We need to be professionals amongst other professionals. That’s what makes humans different. It makes us team players and community members.

        Even the roadsweeper and toilet cleaners can and do form groups of shared professional interest and take pride in their work.

        This may all seem completely irrelevant on a Primal Forum but for as long as there are ad hominem attacks on this forum and a distinct lack of clarity about that, then the ‘group dynamic’ is compromised; as is the specifics of the Forum’s main interest; IE: Primal.

        The usual course of action is to ban abusers where they show no remorse, then see what happens. To try to second guess a source of abuse is frankly ridiculous, and abusers know this, infact they thrive on it and it always ends badly for everyone else. Banning abusers who show no remorse is IMHO absolutely essential because it sets boundaries and allows every one else in the group to re set their stress levels. I can assure you that I don’t believe a remorseless abuser in a group does not raise everyone’s stress levels in that group. Mine are raised and my words are inspired by this raised stress level in me.
        Thus for me, in this group, I have to say this OR leave until the abuser shows remorse OR is banned. I have not said I will leave, but I am saying that I will continue with this approach OR leave.

        For an abuser to deliberately target the facilitator of a group and for that facilitator to refrain from the above protocols does absolutely nothing but perpetuate the abuse and perpetuate the pseudo community that ensues. For a facilitator to engage in reciprocal ad hominem attacks on the abuser is also a mistake well documented in the research and activities of group dynamics. It merely fuels the fire.

        I will conclude this by saying that any positive mediation result I have gained as a facilitator has happened when I cease to believe the other has to believe in my belief system.

        Paul G.

        • Sylvia says:

          Margaret, one of Janov’s books is on audio at amazon, called “Why you get sick, How you get Well.” Don’t know if that is helpful or not.

          Paul, I must be in that toddler phase still because I want to own and buy little things, just to give myself something, and the real need for and ‘just want’ gets blurred. I took from Art’s blog that true narcissists have a different functioning brain than the rest of us. Maybe there was damage at birth. More boys than girls seem susceptible to this. It seems to me to be like an organic thing, like Asperger’s is. MRI’s have been done to show a lack of activity where the empathetic responses emanate of narcissists. Also there is less prefrontal cortex control of impulses. Maybe that is why Donald cannot stop himself from tweeting. Scary we are governed by someone like that.

          • Paul Garland says:

            Hi Silvia,
            I am also stuck there, It’s quite common. I collect little wooden boxes from charity shops (allegedly to sell on in my own shop one day). Before that I was addicted to carpentry tools, well I still am. We tradespeople often get very upset by losing anything. It produces anxiety beyond belief and well beyond the actual imposition of such petty losses. I believe learning a trade helps people stuck there. There is a shift of attachment from carers to things during this ‘counter dependent’ stage where we develop our “NO” or not. Do you remember “NO”? If carers are insensitive back then we may never be able to say “NO” or forever be repulsed or repulsive randomly for the wrong reason. It’s very common and politicians exploit it. So do marketeers.

            Paul G.

  133. Margaret says:

    thanks for the fine suggestions.
    I always procrastinate exploring Art’s blog, as being almost blind and working with a screenreader, it gets an elaborate and often frustrating undertaking.
    but your idea to contact France is actually refreshing as it would not have occurred to me she might be open to that kind of thing. telling about my worldview maybe or my self-esteem, although it is not entirely a bad one.
    just occasionally very insecure and scared of rejection.
    but I will definitely keep it in mind, and wait until I am more schooled and ready for either my bachelor or another scription to work on. in the meantime I keep gathering links and suggestions and ideas, as I copied part of your comment and added it to my ‘stash’ for later use.
    having some assistance and advice is always so encouraging to me as I often have to work out solutions on my own or feel like it anyway.
    so thanks, M

  134. Paul Garland says:

    Hi All,

    Art was once asked if he ever got into Gurdjief and his reply was: “Yes, but it seemed all B S to him”-. He then followed on by saying : “but he just didn’t know anymore”. . .
    Read what I found on facebook just now:

    -“From: Excerpts from a Meeting with Gurdjieff in 1943:

    Gurdjieff: “Justice, you know, is a big word. In the world it is a big thing. It is not just anything—it is something objective. Objective things go according to Law, and exactly as the Law causes them to go.

    Remember what I have said—what you sow, you reap. And this Law not only concerns individuals, but also families and nations.

    Thus, events which happen on earth often come from what has been done at a given moment by the father or grandfather. And the consequences fall on you, so it is you who must face them.

    This is not an injustice. On the contrary, it is a very great honor for you. This responsibility will serve as a reminding factor. And, thus, you can repair the past of your father, your grandfather, and your great-grandfather.

    If this happened to you when you were young, it is because someone has sown it. Now you harvest. One is dead, and it is another who harvests.

    Don’t think only of yourself. You are a link in the chain of your blood. You cannot consider that egoistically; or, if you wish, you can think of it egoistically, but only insofar as it concerns your blood, not insofar as it concerns your little life. It is an honor to occupy this place. Be proud of it.

    The more you feel obliged to repair the consequences of the past, the more you will remember all that you, too, have not done as you ought to have done. And, thus, you will have ten times more remorse of conscience, and the quality of your Being will grow accordingly. You are not a mere “dog’s tail.” You have a responsibility within the lineage of your family.

    Your whole family, past and future, depends on you. Your whole family depends on how you repair the past. If you repair for everybody, that is good. Otherwise, it is worth nothing. So you see what kind of situation you find yourself in!

    Perhaps you are beginning to understand what justice is? Justice has nothing to do with ordering your little affairs. It concerns itself with big things. It’s idiocy to think that God should busy Himself with your petty things. It is the same with justice. Justice has nothing to do with all this, but at the same time, nothing takes place on earth without justice.

    You wish to be a real man? The attribute of a real man is to be really awake or to sleep well. Either really sleep or be really awake. It is not possible to sleep well unless one has been really awake.”

    About a question on Reparing the Past :
    Question: “You have often said that it is necessary to repair the past, and for that one must experience remorse of conscience. When I look at my childhood, I find nothing but catastrophe—I lost my parents very early, and after that all sorts of misfortunes followed. Instead of feeling remorse, I begin to complain. I find in myself someone who feels sorry for herself, who complains and justifies herself. I would like to know how to be free from this self-pity and how to rid my thoughts of things that seem like injustices.”

    How amazing it would be if we could have organised a meeting between G I Gurdjief and Art Janov. I’m sure these two ‘remarkable men’ would have had a great deal to discuss. G was very much into science by the way; and like Art considered a complete charlatan by many. In G’s satirical book Beelzebub Tales, he made a great story about: “The Maleficent Organ Kindabuffer”, I reckon that’s the Histone Layer where Gene Methylation occurs. That’s where ALL of our mendacious behaviour gets it’s start. . .

    Paul G.

  135. I am thinking maybe it was not clear that Patrick has in fact been banned. I believe that is why he has not been here for the last few days. For those of you that are new to the blog this has been going on for quite some time with many different approaches taken, both on the blog and privately. Personally I don’t expect remorse nor do I care that we all have the same beliefs, and actually we don’t. What I do want is a respect for the group as a whole and for the abusuve behavior and language to stop. This has been asked for in the most direct ways possible to no avail. Our last resort might be to look at every comment before posting as Art’s blog has done but we have avoided that as we like the “real time” aspect of this forum. Lastly, no email or instruction was given to this group asking them to ignore or not speak directly to Patrick nor would we. I honestly think the group as a whole was simply just done. In the end maybe it’s best to just be real. We know that people can get around a ban so we shall see and take it one step at a time. Gretch p.s. By the way … a big thank you for all the support!

  136. Margaret says:

    Sylvia, thanks for the tip. I have read The Primal scream several times and even had it turned into audio by the library here, although they said it was a bit ‘dated’..
    as I have heard many of the other books are more or less more of the same I never did much effort to obtain one of them, although I did feel some curiosity.
    but it is good to know it is there, wish more of them were transferred to audio.
    maybe I can get my library to add it to their English audio books!

  137. Vicki B. says:

    Jackson Katz said this, apparently at a TED talk. I think it’s quite to the point about the distortion of “maleness” in our culture.

    “We talk about how many women were raped last year, not about how many raped women. We talk about how many girls in a school district were harassed last year, not about how many boys harassed girls. We talk about how many teenager girls in the state of Vermont got pregnant last year, rather than how many men and boys impregnated teenage girls.

    So you can see how the use of the passive voice has a political effect. It shifts the focus off of men and boys and onto girls and women. Even the term ‘violence against women’ is problematic. It’s a passive construction; there’s no active agent in the sentence. It’s a bad thing that happens to women, but when you look at that term ‘violence against women,’ nobody is doing it to them. It just happens to them. Men aren’t even a part of it.”

    • Vicki B. says:

      Another good one from Katz:

      “I draw a line down the middle of a chalkboard, sketching a male symbol on one side and a female symbol on the other. Then I ask just the men: What steps do you guys take, on a daily basis, to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? At first there is a kind of awkward silence as the men try to figure out if they’ve been asked a trick question. The silence gives way to a smattering of nervous laughter. Occasionally, a young a guy will raise his hand and say, ‘I stay out of prison.’ This is typically followed by another moment of laughter, before someone finally raises his hand and soberly states, ‘Nothing. I don’t think about it.’ Then I ask women the same question. What steps do you take on a daily basis to prevent yourselves from being sexually assaulted? Women throughout the audience immediately start raising their hands. As the men sit in stunned silence, the women recount safety precautions they take as part of their daily routine. Here are some of their answers: Hold my keys as a potential weapon. Look in the back seat of the car before getting in. Carry a cell phone. Don’t go jogging at night. Lock all the windows when I sleep, even on hot summer nights. Be careful not to drink too much. Don’t put my drink down and come back to it; make sure I see it being poured. Own a big dog. Carry Mace or pepper spray. Have an unlisted phone number. Have a man’s voice on my answering machine. Park in well-lit areas. Don’t use parking garages. Don’t get on elevators with only one man, or with a group of men. Vary my route home from work. Watch what I wear. Don’t use highway rest areas. Use a home alarm system. Don’t wear headphones when jogging. Avoid forests or wooded areas, even in the daytime. Don’t take a first-floor apartment. Go out in groups. Own a firearm. Meet men on first dates in public places. Make sure to have a car or cab fare. Don’t make eye contact with men on the street. Make assertive eye contact with men on the street.”

      – Jackson Katz, The Macho Paradox: Why Some Men Hurt Women and How All Men Can Help

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Wow Vicki: Very revealing AND ‘right on’. I see it as part of a deep embedded cultural issue; with the notion that men are the bread winners and women should stray at home. do the chores for the men, then be passive in bed and let the guy have his natural desires. WHY??????


        • Phil says:

          Vicki and Jack,
          The situation for women is even much worse in 3rd world countries. I’m thinking of India where there’s hardly has been any justice at all for sexual assault, from what I’ve understood from the news, reading about gang rapes. I guess, at least partly, because historically men have had all the power and controlled justice everywhere.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: Yep; all this solo gratification from men thinking women are just a means to them “getting off” (whatever ‘getting off [sexually]’ is supposed to mean.

            If two people are required for a “Romantic Experience” then both need to be on the same page. Meaning both should be getting a good feeling from the others body and feelings. If only one of them is getting a “thrill”, then I don’t see that as a fulfilling experience. There’s more to it that the sensation of the ejaculation … as I have experienced it.

            The deep cause of this behavior, is where, I feel, the emphasis should be.


          • Anonymous says:

            I wonder how women were treated there before the colonizing invaders wrested control. Historically wherever the christian invaders infiltrated, indigenous women once revered in highest esteem are demoted to that of labour and sex chattel. The use of rape of women, boys and girls has an eons long documentation as a devastating weapon of control and genocide; 2nd only to religion.

      • Chris P says:

        it is terrible that this kind of violence and aggression seems to be part of our society, I think of a lot of male anger and aggression comes from the fact that most men in this society have been genitally mutilated shortly after birth. Baby girls are protected by law from being genitally mutilated but not little boys.

        What a horrific and barbaric assault on a baby boys bodily autonomy. What an absolute betrayal when a mother hands her little baby boy over to be strapped down and allows his most sensitive body parts to be cut and carved. How can this betrayal ever be forgiven? How can it not lead to a silent but enduring sense of rage and disconnectedness? It surely has lifelong negative repercussions. This brutal sexual assault on little boys must stop if we are to expect adult men to behave in a gentler and more sympathetic way.

        • Sylvia says:

          I hear your pain, Chris. It does seem brutal to do something so invasive at that vulnerable age. A trust betrayed at a time when it’s needed most.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Chris: A very interesting take on why men are the way we are, relative to our attitudes towards women. My father was always referring to women as “The Weaker Sex”. Says a great deal about my father, who co-incidentally was also circumcised.

          This is an interesting thread for me.
          Hope meantime you are doing OK Chris.


        • Anonymous says:

          Brutality of mothers, and other female caregivers, by acts of commission and omission, plays a significant role in the development of abusive men and women. Wars sent monsters back to their homes and communities. A study commissioned in the 90’s in Nova Scotia was quietly shelved when numbers showed near parity between abused husbands and abused wives. During my 40 years of practice girls and women were never charged with their sexual abuse against children, moms, grandmas, clergy/nuns, teachers, with the exception of teacher and teen in non violent circumstances. The morality knives are swift and exacting in those cases.
          As a teen I was several times invited to sex by mothers of age mates.
          I was raped as a toddler. Don’t know who because I was face down; most likely a male although my abusive mother was monster enough to have used some object.
          My 50 yr old son has had an anger towards me after a T&A procedure when he was 4. Being unaware, I kindly, and patiently tried to correct his misperception that I didn’t rescue him from the gurney when he begged me, instead of allowing him to have his feelings.
          My father was alcoholic; sober in my growing years. 2 brothers were alcoholic, one a hazardous drinker. Two were horrible fathers; one is childless, by choice. I turned into a Mother Theresa clone, substance free; well, except for overeating and overworking, and overshouldering others’ loads.

  138. Sylvia says:

    Fantastic, Vicki, and so true.

    Margaret, I think the later Janov books are different than the ones written 40 years ago. One I have on kindle. called “The Janov Solution” deals mostly with depression. Janov describes that not only childhood but birth can contribute to depression. He talks about the neuro chemicals depleted from trauma and cites scientific studies supporting it. There are anecdotal pieces too. Hilda states: …”I was depressed as I went into my Primal Therapy session, and didn’t understand why, but I knew I was in so much pain. During the session, as I talked, I said, ‘I feel so bad,’ and started to go into a fetal position. I pushed slightly, then stopped for a while and so on until my body overheated to the point I couldn’t stand it. I tried to move but my head throbbed because I was in agony. I was choking, my mouth opened wide over and over again to try to scream but there was no sound….”

  139. Anonymous says:

    Don’t know how I have become renamed ,’ Anonymous,’; will ask WordPress to fix that. David Hardy.

  140. erlt83 says:

    Checking to see if WordPress has now identified me again. David H

  141. erlt83 says:

    nope, used my email ID ; I’ll try again David H

  142. David Hardy says:

    and once again….

  143. David Hardy says:


  144. Larry says:

    It is odd. All my life I’ve felt uncomfortable to be alone. I would always have the nearby radio on so that I would feel like someone was there with me. This morning I arose just before the sun. In the dawn light in my condo I started my exercise routine I didn’t turn the radio on. I didn’t want it. More and more I’m enjoying the fullness of just being alone. As I exercised I enjoyed witnessing the red tinged sunrise beaming into my condo living room. I imagined I could feel the earth rotating on its axis as the morning turned from rouge to gold. The sunbeams were just the same as the ones I played with in my Aunt’s house where I was living when I was 3. The sunlight is very much the same as that which shone on the Middle East Neolithic inventors of agriculture, and the same as shone upon the Paleo-Indians that migrated across the Pacific Ocean to North America. The same sun shone dispassionately upon the rise and fall of ancient South American civilizations like the Maya and the Inca, and upon the birth, life and death of my wife. It will shine for another 14 billion years, long after I’m gone. My life is such a tiny speck in all of existence, yet such a marvel to me that I’m slowly waking up to appreciate. I’m thankful to Dr. Art Janov for giving humanity the priceless gift of how to heal and live a fuller life of deeper, richer feeling.

    I cry that my life will end, like it has for everyone before us, and rarely when we’re ready for it. I accept and cry over my fragility, my vulnerability, my powerlessness. I cry gratitude and sadness over the love I briefly had with my wife once in the vast mists of time. I feel the absences, losses and voids in my life. I sink to three years old and cry for my parents to love me, for the sake of my life, for eternity.

    I feel sad that this generation cannot appreciate the immeasurable gift that Art Janov gave humankind.

    • Erron says:

      Wow, so poignant and true, Larry. Beautifully written as I always remember your writing, thanks.

      • Larry says:

        Thank you Erron. Gord Downie died peacefully last night. He was only 53. He was the front man for the Canadian band The Tragically Hip. Last year he publicly disclosed that he was diagnosed with incurable brain cancer. That summer he and the band did a final cross country tour. They weren’t my favourite band, but they are Canadian icons and part of the fabric of my adult life. We know incurable cancer means the end is near, but we hoped maybe it wouldn’t happen. His dying affected me more than I thought it would. Death is final and merciless. It takes anyone any time. It’s a more and more present companion as I age, reminding me that my time is finite, even while I still work to recover from my childhood and come alive.

        • David says:

          the, ‘MAN’s ‘ much more handsome than that bloke… and runs frum nawthin’…

        • David says:

          In an initial interview with Gord’s oncologist he said the brain cancer, while incurable was controllable and predicted average life expectancy. A friend, MD, PHD, in Texas specializes in brain, head and neck cancers and writes cutting edge protocols for oncologists world wide, except for here in his home province where they branded him a heretic and quack. His outcomes are phenomenal.

    • Paul Garland says:

      So true.

      Paul G.

      • Larry says:

        Paul, I wonder what does the video that you posted say for you.

        • Paul Garland says:

          Hi Larry,

          loss, grief, anger, betrayal, resentment, tenacity, vitality & renewal. . .

          There are many Irish bards and artists who can sing in songs and play with tunes what cannot be said with words.

          Christie Moore is another.

          Paul G.

          • David says:

            I was a singer song writer for several decades. A former band mate suggested a few years ago that I listen to music in languages I did not know. Now I know the power of music, can better feel the stories lyric free classical music tells.

    • David Hardy says:

      Your words touch many feelings in me, Larry; wonderfully expressed.

  145. Paul Garland says:

    Hi All,

    this one says it all for me:

  146. Anonymous says:

    I just discovered this blog and appreciate the sincerity of the many articles. I especially love what Gretchen wrote about how Vivian acknowledged her pain as a young girl. The Primal Matriarch was literally looking in the rear view mirror as she was driving and empathizing with her daughter’s best friend. That’s what therapy is – a rear view mirror. Yet, we must keep driving through the only life we know. As with an aging parent, we all realized Art was getting near the end of the life he knew. My own father died at 93 (’19 – ’12). And while psychologically prepared, it’s still a shock when the news comes that the last and final breath has occurred.

    I had a ‘primal’ the other day for the first time in a while. It wasn’t about Art, but about my father.
    As a boy scout, I was one of six out of twenty to reach the summit of Mount Whitney. The others turned back. Once home, my father seemed to not really care or because so busy, not even know.
    How many mountains must one climb?

    Maybe now Art and Sam are having a good talk. Perhaps Art is addressing all of our deceased parents as they demand answers to what was going on all of those years. Art is now explaining
    his extraordinary ‘Pied Piper’ mission in life to help us to feel (live). Now our parents are ‘feeling’ and in the biggest of big rooms. God is there. He’s the co-therapist.

    After group, entertainment will be provided by Tom Petty with the song ‘American Girl’. The lyrics are not about death as some think (according to Petty, himself). They might be about a young woman who perseveres as she enters adult life. Making the transition from adolescent to grown-up
    is not easy for any of us. However, I believe Art is requesting of Tom that he dedicate this song to a young woman he knew who made that transition with graceful determination.
    She was his daughter’s best friend. The one in the car.

    • David Hardy says:

      To be clear, I am not this, “Anonymous,” poster. I cringe at , ‘ religious magic,’ and ‘ Art Janov,’ being spoken in the same breath. I am amazed that modern brained people can believe in the fairy tale of godianity. I had that sorted out when I was 11. If an all powerful being existed ,’ it,’ should be on trial at the Hague for crime against humanity for raining down atrocities on living beings, from plants to humans, or/and standing by while innocents are massacred.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        David: wow!!! good for you to come to all it at such an early age. I was 18 before I came round to it, after a very rigorous Christian, church and Sunday school upbringing. It is IMO because we FORGET (amnesiate) from the memories of the fear that invoked it.

        Sadly, we humans hang onto many fairy tales, and perhaps for good reasons.

        This benevolent father figure given the name of “The Lord” some aristocrap????? All religion is imbued into children by fear.


        • Sylvia says:

          Jack, wasn’t John Lennon quoted as saying to Art: “God is a concept by which we measure our pain?” I know my pain is alloyed with God as a savior because I still find myself asking for God to help me. Guess it is a part of me and those who went to Sunday school–yet my cognitive brain knows better. Go figure.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Sylvia: I don’t remember reading or hearing that from John Lennon. I can see what he meant, but I would not put it that way.

            So many awful (my word) deeds have been done in the name of religion. The most prominant being the Spanish Inquistion. Burning wiches … Oh no!! not men; they are the figure of God.

            Why is god male??? OR is he. Why has there never been a female Pope? As has been stated here recently “If God is so benevelant, how come all the wars and killing????

            AND another one:- It was instilled into us by fear. Fear of “all hell” Why did this all powerful being allow for the creation of “The Devil”; and where is hell????
            Methinks right here in the womb for many and early childhood for most. Then the final one is making a culture out of our religios beliefs. The Muslems are going through this process right now. We Christians and Jews showed them the way. Dunno where the Hindus fit in to it all.

            Peace eludes us ……….. why????? Jack

            • David says:

              Religion was the most horrible weapon the invaders took abroad from Europe. 5 million Colombians, favourite conversion tool, hanging white hot chain around the necks of matriarchs; the Jesuits kept careful observation records of what happens in that process. 90 million of my First Nations ancestors were massacred in most heinous ways. We welcomed them and saved their lives, taught them survival. The priests taught my ancestors to not resist because that would anger the white man’s god. Genocide continued into the 90’s, child theft to sell infants to American white familes, church run residential schools where all abuses including murder, and Nazi type experimentation on children leading to deaths; perhaps 1 in 3 children disappeared. Eugenics is still practiced. I am resentful at the survivors who still bow down to the hem of the cassack. I realize that this seems not to be the place to air this but the ramifications spilled over into relationships including child care, parents who had lost all identity, were never loved by their captors, and didn’t know how to show love. They were sexually abused so they abused in their families and communities, they used alcohol as medicine; reservations are prison camps, where every building is logged and GPS’d by fed surveyors. Until the 60’s the Indian Agent decided if res residents could leave reserve. Not an environment conducive to healthy child rearing.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                David: I wrote in the chapter on religion, that it was “the root of all evil”. The reason being that religion created the dichotomy of “good” and “evil”. It’s another instrument for the control of others. It was the first means of creating laws; then makers of the laws; then leader to facilitate the lawmaking and on, and on, and on. Yet! we humans seem unable to conceive the absurdity “good and evil”, ‘righteousness/wrongteousness”. When, as I see it; it’s a simple matter of “I like”, “I don’t like”.

                What caused the need for the control in the very first place? I don’t think that question as been studied adequately enough. The one explanation I am aware of is Bernard Campbell a professor of anthropology at Cambridge University, England.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  I do see some progression towards was is coined as “secularism” meaning not being religious in the general sense of that term, but still maintaining the cultural aspect of it. Group identity.
                  The huge number of extravagant church buildings here in the Netherlands, some quite beautiful as buildings, but apparently the congregation are dwindling fast. Other than for getting ones baby christened, getting married, or buried; there seems to be less and less use for these buildings. The only remaining adherents are the ‘right wing politics’ hanging onto the justification of laws and law making. ‘Control of those others’ … “Oh no!! not me … I’m a ‘good person”. Inline image
                  There we go again … another judgment call … “good” and/or “bad”.
                  Feelings will keep on going round and round until they find a means to express themselves. Seemingly, this is another concept that’s hard to grasp.


                  • Anonymous says:

                    you been smoking?

                    • Jack Waddington says:

                      A-Noni-Mouse: Don’t smoke any more cos I get high on feeling feelings. Wow!!! I like the sensation. So super aware of everything. Even the prospects of death are not so terrible … the process of death is something else.

                      Still loving our new dwelling. So hope the good feelings keep coming and that I’ve gotten over some of those behaviors that always put the bad feeling in play.

                      Take care Noni. Jack

                    • Anonymous says:

                      Hey Anonymous. We are so alike. Even our little patterns are blueish, but of different shades. I sing a darker Blues.

                    • Anonymous the II says:

                      Even technology gets us mixed up.
                      See comments below next.
                      I’ll be Anonymous the II.
                      Now ‘bluer’ than ever.
                      Where’s my icon?

      • Paul Garland says:

        Hi David Hardy,
        with so many believers out there and so many in charge of our destiny, I have found I am compelled to hold both ideas simultaneously, it’s not impossible. If it was my post about Gurdjief you are referring to, then I apologise for making you cringe. It was meant to provoke discussion, but I can see I have touched on a taboo subject.

        Some of Gurdjief and De Hartmanns music is very good.

        I promise I won’t press that taboo button again.

        Your posts touched me deeply. Thanks.

        Paul G.

        • David says:

          Oh, please, keep expressing yourself; my bit was not posted to impinge on your rights to self expression. I quite like what you say. Any buttons that get pushed are but a positive bonus. I was a closet non theist, and in old age feel a freedom to shout from the roof tops.. hah..

  147. Dear Anonymous, Thank you. Your post really touched me. It really did. I wanted to address your comment that your dad’s death was still a shock somehow at 93. So true. I remember in the movie Terms of Endearment there was scene that really impacted me mostly because I felt it was so real. Towards the end of the movie Shirley MacLaine ( the mom) was with her daughter played by Debra Winger at the hospital. . The mom is watching her daughter asleep in bed and the daughter opens her eyes and they just looked at each other and smiled for a few seconds before the daughter dies. But It is what the mother said next that really struck me. She said ( and I’m paraphrasing) ” I’m so stupid, somehow I thought when she went it would be a relief” ( and then almost shocked ) she said ” there’s nothing harder”‘. There is no real preparation for loss I think. Gretchen p.s. You can add your name or an alias if you want

    • Erron says:

      that brought me to tears Gretchen. My daughter was around last night. I need to go lie down and cry right now.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: I feel for many, and it’s happened to me in the past. We tend to forget to check the name and email address for correctness after posting. One other is not checking the boxes “Notify me of new comments via email” and the other notification for new posts if we’d like emails.


    • David says:

      When my parents and brothers died I felt nothing, but processed a lot of regret they hadn’t let me into the family, unwanted , unloved.

  148. Paul, No I had not heard that song but I have heard of him I believe. I really liked both songs you posted and I am going to ask Barry if he knows him ( he plays guitar as well). Did he die rather young? Gretch

  149. Margaret says:

    such a beautiful comment you wrote.
    the words fuller, deeper and richer life are so meaningful,and the real quality of what this therapy has to offer.

    right now i am in the middle of a struggle to protect my mom, as her doctor called me explaining to me some evening nurse(s) accuse my mom of occasionally becoming physically aggressive, scratching and kicking,.
    i was shocked, and told the doctor that so much did not sound like my mom it was hard to imagine her doing that.
    she too had thought it might be a nurse instigating the problems by her behavior herself, but she added there seemed to be a few notes in the record so it seems to have occurred a few times, seemingly with another nurse as well.

    the good thing is the doctor said she did not want to increase mom’s medication again, and would follow it up closely and only prescribe her some passiflora infusion in the evening, she even asked if I could agree with that.
    of course i was so grateful for that doctor to have contacted me, to tell me about this as none of the caretakers had told us about anything, and that she had found a way to compromise, do something and give it a few weeks to try and find out more.
    i called her again the next day, but she wasn’t there, the doctor I mean, but today I will get hold of her and tell her the only way I can picture my mom being like that is to defend someone she feels treated disrespectfully or rudely, or when she feels physically harassed herself.
    also i want to tell her about a shoulder strap of her little new backpack she likes to carry with her, with her glasses and purse, which last week was completely ripped off, as if someone had pulled hard on it which she could never do as it was brand new and strong.
    it is very worrying, and I and my half sister called mom several times to check on her, once she started crying a bit telling me she was unhappy, other times she reassures me she is ok and I don’t need to worry.
    but i sense something is bothering her in the ward lately, which does not help either.
    I did not tell my brother as it se
    there seems to be less animation and activities useless to let him lose his sleep over it while he has to work hard and we can’t do much about it at this point.
    first I want to check for information about the nurses attitude as well.
    it is a big stress factor but i have to deal with it as best I can, and cal mom often and follow it up…
    ck it out more, talk with the doctor and also ask her to go by in the evening often and try to get in
    sad this happens when she was just settling in so well, let’s hope it does not escalate….

    • Larry says:

      That is awful Margaret. You sense something or someone is upsetting your mother but you don’t know what it is or how to help her. You want to make things better for her but all you can do is lean on other people to help. I can only imagine your frustration and awful feeling of helplessness.

    • David Hardy says:

      We have had a number of cases in this province where family have planted a micro audio / video recording device in a parent’s room to catch the truth of the matter.

    • David Hardy says:

      I must add, Margaret, that I am touched with hope that your mom’s doctor is going to employ passiflora as a calming remedy. After decades of ranting, there is finally some oversight here into the abuse of herd control psychotropic drugs traditionally used in general population senior care.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. Of course you have concern about your mom’s change of behavior. You might ask them to check for urinary tract infection, which can cause a sudden change in behavior. Even if there aren’t overt signs of using the bathroom a lot, or cloudy urine, there can still be an infection. On the other hand. like you say it could be something bothering her on the ward. I’ve heard that UTI is recognized as a big trigger of upset in the Alzheimer patients and my mom had them also and would even stop eating because of it. Good luck and take care.

  150. Margaret says:

    Gretchen, your remark about loss and the impossibility to prepare for it brought tears to my eyes, as the always present fear about losing my mom, which I push down most of the time, was brought to the surface ..
    yesterday when I called her in the evening, a second time as she does not remember I called an hour earlier anyway, and i wanted to check out if she was ok and not in trouble with some nursse, we had a pleasant chat and at the end I said her I love her very much, and she respondid in such a pleasant warm way, laughing with delight and immediately responding in a heartfelt cheery voice she loves me very much as well. it was a fine sincere very warm moment and i was so happy I did call a second time and could hang up the phone with a smile that lasted a long while…

  151. Phil says:

    Margaret, I hope you can find out what’s going on with your mother at the nursing home.

  152. Phil says:

    I have been noticing how the passing of Dr. Janov has triggered some old feelings for me associated with my father. I certainly appreciate Janov’s achievements as I’ve written in earlier posts. His therapy has helped me tremendously yet my life has still been a very difficult and painful struggle. I’ve seen him as someone writing books, describing the wonderful healing power of the process, but I don’t find those benefits coming so easily to me as he’s put it. So, the feeling has been, I need help, but you’re just sitting around writing books and theorizing. He’s so good and smart and I needed his personal help, but now he’s gone, the father of primal therapy.
    Similar to my father sitting around and reading books and not doing anything. Do something! This was a feeling that came up last week, my father not seeming to notice me, what I go through, not taking any action even to talk to me about it. I found him useless. Last evening the feeling was something different. On some Facebook primal group pages Janov has been rightfully receiving a lot of tributes. He and his Primal Center are getting a lot of attention. Which is fine but I don’t do therapy there and there is also good work at other places, like the Primal Institute, which aside from here, many people don’t seem to remember still exists. Also, again, something to do with my needing attention. But I also had a big cry about “don’t hurt Daddy”. In my childhood he was all that I had left, and wasn’t doing well. If he would have done better that would have helped me as well. A feeling that he needs defending. In fact, both of my parents needed help. I don’t know where that left me.
    I wrote a post about this all last night, but it got lost. Then I was glad it didn’t go through, because I wasn’t sure I wanted it posted here. But anyway here it is again.

  153. Margaret says:

    thanks for posting that comment. that feeling ‘don’t hurt’ rings a bell, for me it is linked to ‘be happy’ and ‘be an adult’ or something of that kind, aimed at my mom…

    to my dad it might be ‘be happy, be nice’, and of course’ show some interest please’…

    David, the link I suppose you posted was as often happens invisible to my screen reader, but I also suppose it was about the audio devices and that had already occurred to me, or even a camera, but in my mom’s surroundings it would be very difficult as I think if there is abuse it might not happen in her own room.
    or not only there…
    hope to talk to the doctor today.
    Phil, forgot to say those seem important feeling steps you are making.
    Larry, also thanks for the reply.

  154. Margaret says:

    David, ha, that thought has occurred to me as well, I would also scold god for being stupid or cruel in the ways suffering is incorporated so much in all creatures lives..

    • David Hardy says:

      I recall reading something Dr. Janov wrote about how you can profess the greatness of god on the streets, credit,’ it,’ with all things good, be lauded, or at worst, be thought a nutjob; but, blame,’god,’ publicly for anything and end up certified to a locked ward. When I interned at the provincial psychiatric hospital we had numerous, ‘jesus’s,’ psychotic patients, but never one god…

  155. Margaret says:

    hi Sylvia,
    thanks for the information, always good to learn about those things.
    but well, I have not witnessed any change of behavior at all, and keep thinking it must be some kind of interaction triggering her, if it is true what that nurse said, as she might twist the truth and omit her own part of the exchange for example.
    the striking thing is it would have started with my mom wanting to help fellow residents. I can only imagine the nurse wanted to keep her from doing so fearing she might not do it right, but then the nurse must have been rude or clumsy in her communication and maybe have made my mom feel threatened or made her think the other patient would not be helped or whatever.
    only pure indignation could make my mom angry, and only physical interaction could imo bring her to ‘scratch and kick chins’…
    not that I ever known about her being physically aggressive to anyone at all, ever.
    so I suspect the caretaker to not treat her in the right way as my mom sounds sweet and cooperative as always. and with a sense of humor, so any skilled nurse should be able to avoid such a thing from happening, so i really blame the caretakers for any such event occurring and am angry about it happening, if it did.
    the focus should be on the caretakers, not on my mom is what I feel. she is in a protected ward and it is the first time ever she would have become agressive, well, I don’t buy it as no sign whatsoever points in that direction and I can only imagine her being defensive when severely provoked.
    sigh, to be continued, I keep checking her regularly over the phone and she is ok and sweet as always, and very able to talk with and have a laugh with.
    it is so easy to blame the ‘demented’, without looking at what really happened, and I am grateful the doctor contacted me and has her own doubts and remains calm.

    • Paul Garland says:

      My heart goes out to you Margaret,

      my Mum is pretty advanced now. I wrote this earlier this year:


      as I look into my Mum’s eyes,
      I remember her love for me.

      They stabilised her on drugs,
      which makes her free,

      They wipe her arse,
      and when she flies off the handle,
      It’s not a farce nor scandal.

      They know,
      those who care for her,
      they know she ‘s not herself.

      On £7 per hour,
      stacked into a ‘care’ packaged shelf. . .

      She told me many things,
      before she died,
      but now I watch her slide,

      whilst still ‘alive’. . .

      Inexorably into the grave,
      of my unmet need.

      my Dad,

      My Dad !

      89 years old,
      still there for me,

      whilst my Mum rots away. . .

      My Dad,

      My Dad !

      Please be there for me. . .

      Paul G.

  156. Otto Codingian says:

    Cat tries to revive his dead friend

    • David says:

      My friend’s German Shepherd laid by the dead hampster’s cage for days, grieving, accepting only water.

      • Margaret says:

        hope you don’t mind me asking, but in view of your former comments and the last ones, do you mean you have aboriginal roots,? I think you said you live in Australia, but forgive me if I am wrong.
        I once read a beautiful book about the way the aboriginal walkabouts all have their proper song which actually is a way of describing the track to folllow and where water or food can be found, mixed in with their myths.
        also their drawings are connected to it, which hardly any enthousiastic Tourist realizes, which is such a shame as their culture is so very rich.
        terrible things have been done to them as families were torn apart and little kids ‘relocated’ into ‘proper white families’.
        so much pain and suffering so often sprouting out of one group considering themselves better than the others. exists in almost all cultures, seems some kind of atavistic remain of ‘our group best group’, from our very first ancestors living in small groups like primates do..

  157. Margaret says:

    Paul, thanks for sharing what you wrote about your mom and dad, it was very touching.

  158. Margaret says:

    just got a call from my mom’s physician, a very bright and nice young woman.
    we had a very good talk, she said the prblems did not occurr often but could be part of the process of getting less inhibition which was certainly not mom’s fault but should be dealt with in a good way by the nurses.
    we discovered part of it might be that after dinner people start disappearing out of the commmunity room, and my mom does not remember she has her own room somewhere and gets scared. also sometimes patients start getting a bit nervous and that can be contagious, but we agreed reassuring mom and being friendly to her would probably work very well instead of getting impatient and angry with her.
    the doctor assured me she would by no means increase the medication again, only if really necessary give an occasional exceptional light tranquilizer if it would help her at that very moment.
    but she added part of her being more irritable occcasionally might be her chronic ear infection causing pain, for which she already treats her on an average of twice a month but she wants to talk with the ear specialist to see if some preventive medication would work better.
    also some of her teeth are in bad shape, so she is treating that as well.
    I almost cried when i told her I trust her and am so glad she calls me about these things, and she promised to call me every time if something would change.
    she clearly has the right attitude and good ideas and is on the same wavelength as I am so I feel very reassured and happy to have her look after things and to have her advice the nursing staff there.
    boy, am I grateful to have a doctor like that, her former one was nice but old and old fashioned and almost as forgetful as my mom herself.
    so she is in good hands, and today on the phone she told me she felt happy living there, which the doctor really enjoyed hearing.
    glad I insisted on talking once more about this, all has been said what I needed to be adressed, in a satisfying way.
    gonna lay down for a moment now and let it in…

    • Larry says:

      It sounds like good people are in charge, Margaret. I’m relieved for you and your Mom. It’s good that the doctor is one who you can discuss things with in a heartfelt way.

  159. Margaret says:

    yes, it was nice to be able to tell her in the natural course of the conversation that I trust her and am grateful about her keeping in touch with me and that I appreciate very much what she does…

    she must have heard I was a bit teary, almost, and that was entirely ok as as you say, it was very heartfelt.

  160. Otto Codingian says:

    too late buddy. i say this aloud to myself on this cold windy night, killing time, after killing myself at work all week, and one more 1/2 day of work to go, tomorrow. staring at spreadsheets at work, trying to learn a new reporting software that will tell me all the inner secrets of where are the computers at my job or who is on them, or other useful idiotic information.just mental games, just trying to learn something new with only skills i ever could get somewhat master–numbers. some little plastic toy my aunt gave me when i was young. move the squares around to accomplish something, i can’t remember what, but it could have been a big foundation for the rest of my life, on how i learn to do things. you won’t see one of those toys any more. i get some minor pleasure in interacting with people at work, but so what. it keeps me going, i guess. my dumb-ass boss moved all the work setups i had so he could get the floor stripped and waxed in the space i had spent many hours setting things up, to be able to work efficiently. what ya going to do? he is chaos like trump and bannon, they are probably his heroes.. anyway, the effortless fingerwork of dad and daughter brings this exclamation out of me–TOO LATE. what it mean? my fingers are so numb i could not begin to pick guitar strings AT ALL, let alone this effortlessly. i am too old. brings to mind a session i had with bb once where he mentioned the calluses a guitar player gets. i must have been attempting to learn guitar at that period of my life. long ago and mostly forgotten, the days fly by faster and more meaningless than ever; wake up with guilt every day over my many errors that caused pain to others. what to say? nothing much to say. howl like a dog in a cage. i would but the neighbors will call the police. wife at meeting and getting her happy. no problem, don’t want her around too much anyway. cat and dog like me, but maybe only because i am their parent and i feed them. too late for me. maybe a thought of a birth feeling flashes through my mind when i say it. so what. screw it. poor poor pitiful me. i only look forward to my coffee tomorrow and no one bothering me at work since it is saturday. then i sleep all weekend. last weekend my dear sweet wife wanted to go see the animals in their lonely small cages at the pumpkin patch. animals that will probably have their throats slit for xmas dinner. monday we go to another pumpkin patch with my son and grandkids, who we have not seen for a while. happy happy happy.
    Me Singing ‘Long Time Gone’ By The Everly Brothers (With My Dad!)

  161. Sylvia says:

    Here’s a short video (if the link works) in Russian (I think that is the language) of a woman explaining with an interpreter what primal feelings are and how they can release tension. If the link doesn’t work just go to you tube and put in primal feelings and scroll down to Russian words.

  162. Otto Codingian says:

    must have been the happiest time in her life. Me Singing ‘All My Loving’ By The Beatles With My Dad (Cover)

    • Sylvia says:

      Thanks for the song Otto. It made me think about my dad, like the last time I heard that song here. We used to go fishing down at the river, me listening to Sally Jessy Raphael on my transistor radio and being a little bored not catching anything and he about ten feet away enjoying the quiet, casting away on the bank.

  163. Otto Codingian says:

    sylvia, no tension over here in the u.s.a. ha! especially when you drink russian vodka. which i can’t.

  164. Otto Codingian says:

    david, hope your german shepard recovered from his grief. i dont think many of us humans think that animals grieve too.

  165. Otto Codingian says:

    i meant, YOUR FRIEND’S german shepard.

  166. Sylvia says:

    Here’s a couple more Russian links part 2 and also a long post of a more detailed explanation with stick figures.

    • Sylvia says:

      sorry about that. Here another.

    • Sylvia says:

      Trying again.

      • Larry says:

        Wow! Interesting, and encouraging how the therapy (if that’s what it is) is catching on.

        • Sylvia says:

          Yes, Larry, there is hope that others can get help too. In the longer video, which I watched about 3/4 of there is a woman who was treated and she sounded like she had results from going through the process. The facilitator was recommending interested people read Alice Miller’s translation of “The body never lies.” In another video it shows a group in a semi-dark room and she is telling them to remember their childhood and their siblings and so on, almost like a hypnosis type thing. Probably the techniques aren’t on par with the L.A. therapies but they are no doubt getting some results.

  167. Otto Codingian says:

    scary good movie. primal even. life, death. they dont make them like this anymore. beautiful keanu reeves and rachel weisz. constantine. dont know why i feel compelled to post this. got a lot of chills from this movie. not like kreuger/scream crap. a bit of romance.

  168. Otto Codingian says:

    it was, i wish my mom was alive when i was alone in my childhood hollywood home, reading comic books on the floor. it would have been nice it she was there to get down on the floor with me and share my experience with those colorful stories. i woke up sometime today, somewhat grasping what a psychotic experience it was for me when i lost my mom at 10 months. now i yell at my poor wife for bursting into my room as i try to write this and i dont feel like describing how i felt at 10 months. psychotic will have to suffice and from what i have seen in group of other people who cry about the same experiences over and over, week after week, i will never be able to reach and overcome that big horrible feeling. lifelong feeling.

  169. Margaret says:

    a question that crossed my mind was if you are able to say you’re sorry to your wife occasionally?

  170. Margaret says:

    had a lovely day of sailing today!
    strong (cold) breeze, with sudden stronger blows but despite the weatherforecast it remained dry and even with some sunshine.
    it is so nice to let the wind blow away all cobwebs from your brain and to enjoy being out on the water…

    a girlfriend came to pick me up and as she lived nearby hung around there part of the day which was nice, and my fellow sailors were very nice company. it is an enrichment of my life, too bad winter starts now so I will have to wait until April or May, but the good news is then they will probably do this every two weeks so I can join it easily, as it is only a 20 minutes drive away..
    my layers of cloths did their job, the sailing suit was fine, and as I say, all that oxygen felt so good!
    on one of the trips we had a lady out of a wheelchair on board, who unexpectedly got an epileptic attack, luckily not too bad. but no one panicked, so we sailed to the departing point and checked with her sister, and asked her if she wanted to continue sailing still and yes, she did. I took over some of her ‘duties’ so she could just sit and relax and it was fine.
    this is a great initiative, to make such a healthy sport accessible for people with different disabilities. the volunteers are such positive sporty people, it is all a very uplifting experience and makes me look forward to more of it to come next year!
    there was also a young Labrador dog, Lola, with swimming vest and everything, smiley, with two handles on the back to fish her back up if necessary. she loved it there, going in and out of the water, smelling the burgers on the barbecue and making friends with everyone..
    a fine day in other words..

    • Larry says:

      Wow, I’m excited just reading about it. Sounds like a rich experience. Sounds like the kind of thing I haven’t enjoyed for a long while.

    • Vicki says:

      Margaret, that does sound wonderful, and it reminds me of the couple of times I went sailing years ago, as I remember how much I loved standing at the prow of the boat and feeling the wind. I felt fearless, and others were not, and it was surprising to me. It was a 37 ft. boat on San Francisco Bay, we sailed from the East Bay out west just beyond the Golden Gate Bridge, then to Fisherman’s Wharf for shopping, before heading back east to dock. Unfortunately, after 6 hours of loving it,nausea overcame me for the last 4 hours, and overall ruined the experience. The 2nd sailing was only to be for 6 hours from Marina del Rey, so I imagined I would be ok, but instead the seasickness commenced after 4 hours, but worse than ever, so that I was in convulsive dry heaves for 2 hours. Everyone just staying as far away from me as they could get, on the small boat (about 17 or 19 ft), and I vowed never to try sailing again, sadly. But I am glad to have had the experiences. For me, it confirmed that I have courage, something I don’t get circumstances often to feel.

  171. Margaret says:

    hi Vicki,
    it sounds like despite the seasickness it was a very good experience overall. I can relate to what you said about feeling courageous, for me it makes me feel ‘alive’, and not as old as I was slowly ending up feeling, but fitter and younger…

    I once on the sea got almost seasick, maybe it would not happen to you if ever you get an opportunity to sail on a lake, much more steady water..
    it was nice reading your story, thanks, M

  172. Margaret says:

    Margaret, It’s great that they have this sailing program and that you’re finding it so enjoyable.
    Does seem very adventurous and courageous for you to be doing. Good for you!

    • Phil says:

      Here’s the correct version of this comment.

      Margaret, It’s great that they have this sailing program and that you’re finding it so enjoyable.
      Does seem very adventurous and courageous for you to be doing. Good for you!

  173. Phil says:

    Things are finally almost completely back to normal here between my wife and I, after the problem which occurred during our vacation in late July.
    Last week we had a big discussion which was helpful for clearing the air, although it didn’t necessarily resolve anything. A big thing coming out of it is she surprisingly agreed to do a joint phone session with Barry. Maybe because I told her I thought we had to keep working on things to make them better, as it won’t automatically happen, and I find therapy very useful myself. A prime motivation for her is that she doesn’t like the idea that I might complain about her with out her input, and I didn’t try to convince her that isn’t exactly what I do.
    She wants to correct that by adding her side of the story. I don’t care what her reason is; I am happy about it because she is a pretty much a big therapy skeptic. In general she doesn’t think people can change and thinks we have to work things out ourselves. So in my mind it’s a big deal that she’s agreed to do this.

  174. Margaret says:

    wow Phil, that is big news! M

  175. Margaret says:

    the courage required lays mainly in surmounting the social fears and inhibitions of meeting new people while having poor hearing and worse eyesight. like Vicki on the boat itself I feel fearless really, only enjoyment mostly.
    it will probably get easier once I know my way around there a bit better and know more people, but so far it was all pleasant really.
    the other night, before the sailing I think, I had a strange primal dream kind of out of the blue.
    I was on something like a giant bus, full with primal people. I was walking forward in the main isle, towards a girl that was geting very distressed. just when I reached out to her to hold her hands, she got into a big feeling and started to repeat ‘I want to be dead, I want to be dead, I want to be dead!’, which resonated so strongly with me that I uttered a long scream full of pain, to then wake up..
    i wonder if that girl was really a part of me with which I got in touch, that feels kind of what it was…

    maybe getting more taste in life again with the sailing helps to face this dreadful feeling, yes, that feels right…

    • Margaret says:

      That sounds like it was a very intense dream. So, you think it also had something to do with sailing? I imagine you must be a good swimmer. Fear on a boat would be from drowning.

  176. Phil says:

    Sorry, I did it again.

    That sounds like it was a very intense dream. So, you think it also had something to do with sailing? I imagine you must be a good swimmer. Fear on a boat would be from drowning.

  177. Margaret says:

    Phil, it is not that I am generally not scared from drowning, but on a sailing boat it has not been on my mind so far, as I am always wearing a safety vest, so would float even with the sailing cloths on..
    also being part of a little team feels kind of safe.
    maybe on the sea it would cross my mind more easily that I better don’t drop off the boat, but there often the safety vests contain some localizing equipment just in case. and there too, being part of a group with welltrained companions feels safe enough.
    the dream is more connected to my deep desperation usually well under the surface, a deep kind of hopelessness and sadness bringing me to the verge of giving up sometimes. not quite there, but pretty hopeless so to say.
    feeling more hopeful seems to give me safer access to that dreaded emotional abyss..

  178. Leslie says:

    Wonderful reading about your sailing Margaret! Again you are amazing!! What a great adventure to look forward to and do.
    Vicki – it sounds like you just have to go on shorter sailing excursions is all :).
    Did mean to say how much I enjoyed your post with Jackson Katz’s quotes about women and their daily safety measures. It wasn’t til we were living in Japan for a few months – 30 years ago too – that I realized how incredibly freeing it felt to feel safe. Not that nothing ever happened – but compared to North America it was truly rare!
    Have been enjoying so many videos, music and posts on the blog.
    Thank you Gretchen!

  179. Otto Codingian says:

    here is a song that used to bring me to tears. i dont remember why. The Go-Go’s – Our Lips Are Sealed
    now i can barely type this into this blog,let alone listen to it,let alone let the tears come. i won’t say why. just me. saw grandkids and son and his wife yesterday after a long time not. sorry dear wife, but i told you when the door was closed, don’t burst in through that closed door. then you would not hear my tired assholish self angrily telling you that this is my time. her primal aptitude went away, if there ever really was any. anyway, and of course, i feel extreme guilt for talking to her like that, and i won’t hug her and apologize to her, because i am fried from working 7 days a week, so i just cant do it, i never actually could do it even in the best of times. anyway,i felt zero connection to my son or his beautiful kids, let alone to his wife, who finds us extremely distasteful. happy happy. serenity now. Best of serenity now

  180. Otto Codingian says:

    well here is a real heartbreaker. i just wanted to watch some relaxing cat videos, but noooooo…..
    this coldplay song was played at the funeral of my wife’s friend, whose sister had killed herself after many years of battling addiction. played in the catholic church, a few years back. i avoided this song until they snuck it in, too sad. anyway. Fly Whippet & Joey Jungle Bengal (3) Tenderness i have lost many many pets from carelessness, pets that i have never cried about.
    youtube notes:
    Joey tribute – Last moments – Even with a safety net in the windows, Joey managed to escape and ended up falling from the balcony of the 12th. floor.
    Fly has a little whippet sister now, she is 4 months old and her name is CHARA (the name of a Star of the Hunting Dogs Constellation).
    Chara is cheerful and they love to play together, sometimes she licks Fly’s mouth and reminds us of our beloved Joey.

  181. Margaret says:

    They have put a piano in my mom’s ward’s community room! especially for her, I think the doctor as something to do with it.
    mom gave a kiss to the caretaker that showed her the piano, so pleased she felt with it.
    I am at home already practicing Christmas songs and ‘Sinterklaas’ songs, an early version of Santa Claus, who has his celebration on December 6 with gifts for kids but everyone loves the songs and the festive atmosphere.
    mom can play any song she knows, but gets a bit astray occasionally so if I sit next to her and play the same tune we can probably do better. or even play some songs in canon if it really goes well. and hopefully people will sing along but maybe I am being very optimistic here, smiley.
    hope people don’t start minding her playing, but usually she stops after half an hour or so.
    in any case it is a fine initiative.

  182. Leslie says:

    Sounds like a perfect way to bring in the holidays Margaret!!
    Great for your mom and others – in so many ways!

  183. Margaret says:

    Leslie, I hope so, I must be careful not to expect too much of it either, but mom definitely sounds more cheerful already…

  184. mary z says:

    Hi everyone
    I feel stupid and inappropriate about writing what I’m going to say but here goes–
    I am having a very difficult time in my life right now because of financial problems.
    Last time I wrote on here 2 1/2 years ago, I was in a similar place. I did manage to find work–I
    worked as a live-in caregiver on weekends for a year as well as working part-time at a
    neighborhood market till they suddenly closed this month without notice. Also I do cleaning
    type of work for a couple about once a week.
    Anyhow, the sudden market closing put me in a bad place where I can’t pay my rent as I haven’t been able to land a new job yet.
    If anyone knows of any job possibilities (La) or economical living arrangements, or any
    other kind of help please let me know. e-mail
    I would greatly, greatly appreciate
    Mary Z

  185. Margaret says:

    Dear Mary,
    I know you are in a very difficult position, and I admire how you managed to survive and stay in L.A. for all these years. I know you as a very sincere and strong person, and can testify for that to anyone here who does not know you and might be suspicious.
    I really wish you find some solution soon, maybe you could consider to contact some primal people who are not on the blog but who have a lot of possibilities for finding jobs?
    or go to the different groups and present your problem there, even if just for a brief visit if you can’t afford paying for a group at this moment. I imagine Barry and Gretchen would not object to you reaching out in some way, in any case good luck, you are such a fighter but deserve some support as well, even fighters get tired and can use any help they can get.

  186. Otto Codingian says:

    dear ab, more asshole dismay and disappointment shouted at my poor….by me. i will spare most of the details. with my last ounce of strength, i was going to see if i could order some shirts for work online since i have been wearing shirts with gaping holes in them for months. my last ounce of strength after 7 days straight of work. anyway, no solutions for this abominable situation. someone that i know needs all the money i make and thinks I don’t need any of it. i came home and said to myself that i would be civil about this accelerating shit, but that shit was thrown on me like by a raging pit bull who never stops till she makes her kill, well…oops. i raised voice times 3 or 4. no serenity now. whole thing triggers my pain of lack, but also it is true. someone that i still know is still doing the same shit 40 years on. sorry to her, sorry to blog. and fate, go gfy. whoopee.

  187. Otto Codingian says:

    excerpt from my password file about my pets. this eats away at me every day.
    no joy in my life to counteract this shit. as if there was enough joy that ever could.
    Otto put to sleep 7-9-15 sherman oaks vet, 9am or so
    Goodbye otto see you in a while, come to visit if you can

    Cody put to sleep 12/8/15
    Goodbye cody see you in a while. Sorry for all the pain you got here.

    Katrina put to sleep 1/26/16
    I know you didn’t want to go. Sorry.

    You have no idea how much you are missed. It was a trip with you.

  188. Margaret says:

    that is a sad list of loved pets you did provide a shelter for while they needed it. but it is always so very sad to have to let them go..

  189. Margaret says:

    just heard a 96 year old violin maestro play on the Dutch television, and it was so very touching, he whispered and softly cried with his violin, and what he played contained so much tenderness and some sadness. it was incredibly beautiful, it was a privilege listening to him.
    he was also interesting to listen to when he talked about his life and music, he mentioned having played with or known Lennon and Yoko, but he admitted he could not stand her really.
    sorry I don’t know his name, I came in while the program was already on..
    feeling and beauty are what makes life worthwhile, tendernesss and love and compassion,.
    we have part of it in our own hands, as our own behavior and attitude is always our own choice. kindness, generosity, acceptance and forgiveness.
    Beethoven’s quote I just heard right now that you can play a mistake which is not a big problem, a problem would be playing without passion.
    mmm, now the Rosenberg trio, guitars and contrabassoon.
    once saw here in Antwerp a trio with the grandsons of Django Reinhard and Stefan Grapelli and forgot the third one but also a grandson of a famous player.
    life in all its intensity!
    played just a little with my mom yesterday, lack of time, brother in a bit of a hurry, but it was nice to be able to freshen up her memory about a song on the piano and to watch her play it again, with all the proper chords added and with so much pleasure and satisfaction. I plan to spend more time with her at the piano next Wednesday!
    precious moments, and luckily the other residents of the ward seem to like it.
    being more able to be vulnerable is such an enrichment of life.
    wow, now listening to an Impromptu don’t know from who, very virtuose piano music, very touching, and it reminds me of the sadness life contains invariably, but also very much of the beauty of our world and universe.
    Jack, sunday afternoons and early evening on channel 2 of Dutch television, always quality music and art!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Thanks for the info but it’s almost 9:00 pm when I read your comment so I’ll try and remember next Sundag. That’s the best so far, at double Dutch that I can muster/

      Been busy putting up curtains in the living/dinning room and I must admit, it feels so cosy (something the Dutch are very good at). I love the place more than ever, but we are getting a lot wind and golden leave all over the place. Jim sweeps them, but they fall faster than he’s able to sweep. I sit back and just hope the wind pushes then in the direction of the forest; two meters from the end of the chalet. I almost expect a deer to jump from behind the nearest tree, and the trees are so tall.

      When I learn to be able to transfer my pictures, and put them on the blog I show some of the of both the inside and outside. The final stretch is to make the shed into a cosy guest house. May be that’ll have to wait till the new year.. Meantime Margaret, it seems your relationship with you mother is getting better by the dag. Good luck.


  190. Sylvia says:

    I watched this video of baby’s birth. It made me tear-up. Guess you moms and dads know this kind of joy but it amazes me, never having given birth only being someone born. Aren’t we all just animals; no different than the puppies and kittens and other animal kingdom babies.
    Margaret, this video is of a family at the hospital and the mom is started in a bath to relax her, then on the hospital bed gives birth to a baby girl. Then they both are back in the bath with oil infusions, the mom cradling her baby. (The dad cuts the cord prior to this.) The two siblings are gathered around. A boy about 5 yrs. and a girl a little older.

    • Sylvia says:

      Sorry that link didn’t work out. If you go to youtube and type in: “emotional all natural live birth vlog willow jane ” you can see it.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: I fully agree we just one other creature on the planet. The only difference is we try to CONTROL nature and everything and everyone else. According to LeBoyer, we don’t even need to cut the cord. If left alone it just shrivels and breaks off of it’s own accord .


    • David says:

      Was this a LeBoyer type delivery, Sylvia ? Read his book in 1975, and watched his videos…. years of pain and joy. Like Primal Therapy, should be a mainline offering 40 years later. Why the resistance. A young friend, MD, PHD/Medicine, Masters Clinical Nutrition says he’s all through with mainstream medicine once his loans are paid next year. Then off to Chiro or Osteopathy school.

      • David says:

        meant to type, ,’ tears of pain and joy.’

      • Sylvia says:

        Yes, David, I believe it is the Le Boyer method. Hard to believe that it was resisted for so long, but now I think it is offered more. The little hospital in my area even offers a spa-type bath and family inclusion in the birth process.

  191. Sylvia says:

    Jack, I think I’ve heard talks about not cutting the cord until it stops pulsing because the baby is still getting sustenance from it. Also it helps the baby from being anemic to keep it attached until the cord isn’t beating. Mom’s here would know more than I. I think at some point it has to be cut from the placenta.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: Me too,. My only source was LeBoyer, and then a guy who was a nurse practiced mid wifery on women (hippies) who were pregnant, in my Ibiza days. Apparently he always let the cord wither which apparently happens very quickly after it stops pulsing, and the baby starts breathing.


    • David says:

      Doctor LeBoyer thought it relieved the trauma of transition from the uterine environment to this reality. It was a struggle to even access the delivery room when my babies were born. The last birth, 1977, our doc promised to comply as much as possible with the Leboyer guidelines, no bright table light, warm delivery room, no immediate cutting of the umbilical cord. The assisting nurse tied off and cut immediately and placed baby on far side of room. I picked her up and brought her to her mom, and placed her on her belly. The doc apologized for, ‘ losing control of the delivery.’

  192. Margaret says:

    it feels interesting I had three (!) dreams tonight about being a resident in some big kind of nursing home, not for old people but for people who got some disability or seemed damaged or vulnerable in some way. all the dreams were ok, all about reaching out to others and getting to know things and handling the caretakers with deference without forgetting my own opinions and needs.
    all I can come up with is it is some way of accepting needing some assistance on a regular base, being part of the ‘disabled’, and being ok with it more or less at last.
    also being able to be interested in others even while they are different at first sight.
    and maybe I am also resonating with my mom adjusting to being a resident in a nursing home. the other day she said, in her community room, ‘yes, sure I am at home here as there stands my piano!’, touching and warming my heart at the same time.
    last week talking with a dear friend, we were considering the theory we are sort of tuned in to the brain waves of our mom, having developed inside of her, also our brains. that thought had occurred to me as on a number of occasions in the past I have had dreams about my mom which turned out the next day to seem linked to something that had happened that night to her.
    once I jumped into muddy water saving her from drowning, and the next day she told me she had felt that night she was about to die, almost slipping away but then hearing me and coming back for me…
    if our brains can activate devices that are tuned in to catching certain brain waves, I see no reason why we would not be able to some point to catch brain waves of people we are very close to, but of course it is only a hypothesis. some twins seem to be able to surprising stuff as well, and specially when strong feelings arise maybe the effect is stronger?
    just an idea of course, but an intriguing one..

  193. Renee S. says:

    Hi everyone, I just found this video of Barry in his younger days. I did not know that he lived in Australia or that he knew so much about this subject. You live and you learn…….

  194. Margaret says:

    ha, boy, what the f..? young sense of humor? hard to believe that was r. B, haha!, or well, come to think of it..

  195. Margaret says:

    or was the joke it was just a lookalike? I am kind of an easy believer when jokes are being made..

  196. That’s not really Barry Margaret, Renee was kidding. But a bit of a resemblance! G.

  197. Margaret says:

    ha, thanks Gretchen for informing me!

  198. Margaret says:

    one of the victims in NY was a 31 year old Belgian woman , a mom of a 3 year old and a 3 months old kid..
    another lady was from Antwerp and lost a leg, husband and son with smaller injuries..
    crazy people, who do such things, what on earth do they hope to achieve?

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: You ask “what on earth do they hope to achieve?” To and for me they are trying to convey a message. We neurotics do this often; no necessarily in a violent manner, but nevertheless it’s equally crazy..

      They are compelled to send the messages, by using soft targets. If there was an easy say to affect the governments directly they would. BUT the members of governments are the most guarded and so they become difficult targets.

      The message I feel, that Primal therapy conveys is that it is us, the patient who is capable of answering questions:- why we do certain things. Not the therapist/experts/governments.

      I contend if only they could send their message easily, be listened to and given some consideration; we might, just might, be able to resolve named, problem “TERRORISM’..


  199. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Margaret, very sad happening indeed. Such pain created for those families of those hurt and killed. No real purpose to it, and accomplishes nothing. No doubt a person who does this has misdirected rage having its roots in childhood. Unfelt pain released in revenge from long ago mistreatment and insensitivity he doesn’t even remember. So now he has a cause that triggers it and can finally express it. Such a waste for everyone.

  200. Phil says:

    My youngest son got accepted last week to his top college choice in NYC as a transfer student and will move there in January. I’m really happy he got what he wanted and I think it’ll be exciting for him there.
    He did mention that the terrorist attack which just took place bothers him, and that’s understandable. As we were looking on a Google map at where he might be living and traveling to classes, the site of the attack in another section of Manhattan popped up on the screen and was highlighted.
    I am working with him to arrange all the details, unlike his older brother who didn’t much need me involved.
    After he moves we’ll want to keep in close touch as it will be his first time living away from home. I have been having many sad dreams about all this. It’s hard to have him moving out and not around anymore. Only 70 miles away but he won’t be living here anymore.

  201. Margaret says:

    wow, congratulations for your son, and for you as well, for having helped him etc.
    and yes, it seems a big change now the last bird leaves the nest so to say..
    good you have such a good relation with him and can support him with this.
    sounds like it does trigger a lot of sadness as well..

  202. Otto Codingian says:

    Completely Mute Girl Surprises Everyone When She Tells Her Therapy Donkey These Magical Words

  203. Otto Codingian says:

    you are a sweetie, jack.
    orange cat, white dog. dog keeps sticking his head up to cat so that the cat will lick his head. we know what it looks like when a cat licks, their funny little tongues that seem to lick lick lick automatically. Cat Cleans Dog. anyway wife going to ohio for xmas with son (me: bah humbug about xmas, mot fun to be around, little spirit left inside) , then she might stay 4 more weeks to take care of his dog, while he and his new girlfriend go to islands somewhere. that means i drive home for lunch every day from work at lunch for an hour to put the dog out for 10 minutes, since i work 12 hour days and the dog would be moaning and barking and lonely after 6 hours. or i get a dogwalker to come over, but that is money, maybe not that much, i guess, and i could get back to feelings for a few short weeks when the little woman is not bursting into my room since she will be bursting in ohio. october november december cool dark nights. somehow reminds me of the time i was torn away from my mom abruptly one day, never to see her again, at age 10 months. it took me many years to find out that this actually happened to me, then more time to realize it also happened to her, and it is impossible to believe that this could happen.

  204. Otto Codingian says:

    phil, good for your kid., but sad for you and your wife.

  205. Otto Codingian says:

    and that dumbshit who listened to ISIS has kids too. asshole. and zuckerburg is rich, letting isis broadcast from facebook.

  206. Otto Codingian says: CAT RECOGNIZES ON PHOTO AND VIDEO HIS DEAD CAT-FRIEND this one is horrinbly sad; i guess the maine coon cat was larger than life with his playfulness. i have never seen an animal that could recognize video or pictures. some vivaldi include, which always gives me at least 10 tears. mom probably played those records, 4 seasons.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Otto: that was lovely watching the white cat looking at pictures of his/her dead friend. We can learn so very much from animals, BUT mostly we don’t … SAD


  207. Margaret says:

    that sounds like a sad viedeo about the cat recognizing hiis old friend. a bit cruel to from the owners to put it on again after having found out , to make the video. it is special of course but well, poor cat.
    I had two former cats recognizing birds on tv, trying to catch them through the screen. the last cat also recognized fish swimming and tried to catch those, including a large dolphin, despite the fact she had never seen any reall fish in her life.
    she also jumped up on the tv to try and catch them from above, and then turned around to search behind the television , haha, very smart cat indeed!!
    they are so smart, I love the tricks and theatrical moves they make to convince me to open the drawer with special cat treats and give them some, very convincing and clear body language, which even I can clearly notice..
    and if necessary one paw reaches out to me when I walk by and one tip of a tiny claw gets minimally stuck in my sleeve as an extra hint, haha!
    very endearing really.
    or the faintest sweetest softest little meow imaginable when they stand on the edge of the bathtub wanting me to open the tab for fresh ‘spring’ water they can catch, necks stretched out and surprisingly long tongues scooping up the running water..
    every cat being special in its own way..

    • Linda says:

      Hi, Margaret. I am responding to your 11-5-17 entry. Your cat chronicles were delightful. They gave me much pleasure to read. My three and one half pound Chihuahua does many of the same things that your cats do.

  208. Otto Codingian says:

    another sunday morning when i gorged on everything in sight because i suffered all week long working and my dear wife was gone. it is important to say that that she was gone. mostly in my life, i only eat alone except with the cat or dog and yahoo news. it used to be actual paper news. anyway, she said she was going to take a nap and the cat jumped down from her bed as i walked by her room. she cried “sooki, i fed you a whole packet!” and under my breath i said, food is not the only thing the cat might want. i think she likes to be petted. (the cat, but probably too the wife). my wife wanted the cat but i am not sure i ever see her petting the cat. my wife will stroke my skin from time to time. i am not talking bad about my wife here. her cry to the cat triggered a thought in my head, about how food is so important to me, that i constantly overeat, and have very little control over it. all i had left of my mom after she left was the eating. they fed me. they did not cuddle me and all the other stuff babies need. i am talking about my aunt and uncle whom i got placed with for 8 months. in saying this, i can maybe glimpse a picture in my mind of my mother’s teenage sister, also my aunt, holding me, but that is just a flashing thought. anyway. the point i am making, mostly to myself, is that food has such a grip on me because of the early tragedy associated with it. i told my dietician i have been starving my whole life; she was startled but really did not want to know what i meant. she gave me a booklet to encourage me to get moving.

  209. Otto Codingian says:

    of course i remember something else. my grandmother who raised me and my brother, often ate alone and maybe read the paper. although we did eat as a family, the three of us, at dinner most every night, until we were teenagers who were often out the door.