Personal Reflections on the Death of Dr Janov by Nick Barton page 2

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680 Responses to Personal Reflections on the Death of Dr Janov by Nick Barton page 2

  1. Otto Codingian says:

    wife back from ohio. driving me nuts. just screamed at her. can’t find my rx to get my bp meds. fingers wont type i cant feel the keys. govt shutdown. getting caught up in trump/schumer daca feverd. trying to write schumer and wife interupts for the 10th time. “Good work on shutdown, Chuck! Now, the DNC needs to target the Republican districts, both House and Senate, with tv or facebook commercials. If the White House can air ads about “murdering illegal aliens, dnc must counter attack with ads that depict real-life situations, such as introducing Dreamers who are soldiers,doctors, nurses,etc.” cant fdidmnisuddddd finish email to schumer. insane day at work. wife wants affection after she abandoned me for 5 weeks at xmas, and she continues to spend foolishly. finally got my ss and i was going to pay off her $10k dental bills, but they cut off all overtime for good last week.d whoopeeddddddddd still alived. fingers are numb. carpal tunneld per new doctoer.d

  2. Sylvia says:

    Hi Otto, I’m glad Chuck took back his offer on funding the wall.
    Have a nice evening.

  3. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi all: I’m adding this again since my response to time was on the last page. Sorry for you’s that have already read it.

    Tim: Thanks for your comment and especially about Patrick. I too knew that Patrick was very disappointed and felt betrayed with Primal therapy. I sincerely hope that he can find some happiness back in the Ireland, that I know he loves.

    I don’t feel the same about this therapy as seemingly you and he does. I got a great deal out of it and feel that every penny I spent on it was worth it. Of course, it could be said I am delusional, and I often look into just that about myself. I am also aware there were many that felt disappointed about Primal therapy.
    The question becomes:- did we each (as you put it) expect there was a hidden person inside us that was going to have it all revealed for us? OR, (as happened to me) realize that ‘REAL’person was already there; had been there since conception and/or at birth, and all that I had to do was see him/me and stop pretending/hoping/expecting and acting-out that other person … that was NOT the (deep down) real me.
    To assume that Janov played a whole ‘con trick’ on us all; is belied by all those that have and are continuing to do the therapy. It is (as I see it) a process and not an end game. However, I grant that Janov might … as he later learned, gave a lot of hope in some few phrases in that first book like “becoming ones real self” and “The Cure of Neurosis”; in spite of his explaining what exactly neurosis actually was. There is some sort of expectancy in many of us … “and they lived happily ever after” and it’s obtainable for all of us. Sadly, that the fairy tale … but somehow we still want to believe it.

    Convey my best wishes to Patrick


  4. Margaret says:


  5. Margaret says:


  6. Phil says:

    I’ve noticed that therapy at the Institute has much more of a focus on current life than it used to have, and that’s good. But when I think back to when I started; at that time I could hardly talk about how I was feeling and what was going on for me, in the past or present. Now I think I’m much better at that and improving. To me, the results of the therapy process are pretty much like Janov described in his books. It’s just that it’s a much more difficult process, taking so much more time, than I ever could have imagined. But it’s been all worthwhile.
    As for Patrick, I wish him well, but I’m very grateful he’s no longer on the blog.

  7. Miguel says:

    I think that when a person is depressed he feels and thinks that other people should take care of her. Depression causes feelings of hopelessness and helplessness. But therapy is not something that is done in the treatment center and once out there the problems are solved magically.

    You have to solve your problems because nobody can do it for you. As Gretchen said, buy the ticket because if you do not buy it, the lottery will not touch you.

    It is possible that Janov made mistakes and therapy at the beginning used more emphasis in the past than in the present.

    This problem was corrected and the therapy was perfected especially as it is practiced in the Primal Institute

    I think Primal therapy is a correct approach to neurosis problems.

    “The feelings are the foundations of our mind, revelations of the state of life in the bosom of the whole organism” Antonio Damasio, professor of neuroscience, neurology and psychology at the University of Southern California, Los Angeles

    I think that the theme of feelings and emotions are known since the time of the Dutch philosopher of s. XVII Spinoza who called “conatus” emotions. Spinoza himself considered that mind and body form a dialectical, or dynamic, unit. Emotions form a map of the brain and feelings would be the mental representation of those emotions.

    It is easier to blame sobody than to take care of yourself and take responsabilities.

    True Primal therapy is not for everybody
    Everybody is not for primal therapy


    • Anonymous says:

      I went into Primal therapy in 1976 Gretchen was one of my therapist we did deal with first line pain I got a lot of good things out of the therapy and some good life skills down there I wonder if there’s a message board so I could connect up with some of my old friends that I’ve lost track of over the years thanks Deanna

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Anonymous: This comment about meeting up with old friends is something I have thought a lot about and even tried to get in touch with many; with little luck. I even tried Facebook searches, but never was a Facebook fan and now even less.

        My point being I am thinking more and more:- why am I trying to look them up? Am I trying to recapture something, or even worse trying to recapture a period in time..
        My current feelings are rapidly becoming:- ‘I need to live with what I have right now’. I do have some friends that I have kept in touch with and some that have died meantime. Three of the deceased ones are past lovers.

        Jim and I (my partner) do talk a lot more now than we used to about a lot of things including our own demise. What we did that we wanted to do, and somethings that were disappointing.

        Meantime I ‘m enjoying our new home and going through the seasons once again, after those “Indian Summers”, living in LA for 37 years.

        Insights are now a daily occurrence . I don’t like the growing old and being less able, but so far it’s not too painful.


  8. Tim, I, of course, started my own therapy a million years ago. I think I was likely one of the first people to read the book The Primal Scream. I never felt I was not able to deal with present issues either. In fact to the contrary. I felt my therapy started each day with where I was at the moment. I’m not sure which Tim you are because there have been a few Tims over the years. I’m not sure who your therapist was, what brought you or if you came to therapy with us. So I have no idea what your story is. That being said is it possible there was a reason your therapist felt you needed to focus on the past, I mean specific to your story? I also never thought, even in those early days, that Art was saying I would ” magically find my perfect self” though I’m sure at times I wished for that. Maybe because I found myself focused on the case history aspect of the Primal Scream it always felt like a diary of events unfolding. I understood that was not the end of the story. When I finally started training with Art and Viv it felt like each day was a revelation , we learned something new each day and with each new patient. I still feel that. One thing I do want to make clear about Art. No one believed in Primal more than Art. He wasn’t some one that set out to become famous or created something to make money. He believed in Primal and its ability to change people at a core level. I will grant you he was a bigger than life character and that quality and his unyielding belief in Primal sometimes rubbed people the wrong way. No one is perfect and I could focus on whatever weakness he might have had but one thing he was not was a phony. Gretchen

    • FRED says:

      I like the Carpenters’ song “We’ve Only Just Begun”. This might be said about Primal Therapy. It doesn’t mean “we” will have to wait another million years. I doubt Gretchen would enjoy that.

      In my humble opinion, poor Art “just” discovered, or should I say re-discovered?, the natural process of accessing feelings with a LOT of “back story” and theory, followed over the years with the research. Perhaps, because he got a bit ahead of himself, at some point, reached his own brick wall, and was too inflexible or even too invested to meet this new challenge.

      Indeed The Book may have implied too much, but truly I think he gave us was a brilliant window into what could be and is the natural heritage of man.

      I might liken Janov to Bob Dylan of the early-to-mid 1960s. Some of Dylan’s lyrics were truly other-dimensional. His mind was able bring into awareness such wildly creative concepts and associations, utterly unmatched, yet Dylan himself, was/is a regular guy, and even seems lost, now that his muse seems to have abandoned him.

      Maybe Janov’s mind was like that. He saw a probable future with a concomitant “Post-primal” man. He didn’t, at some point, know what to do next so maybe he retreated into his endless (until 10/01/2017) research and theory which I received 2 or more times a month in emails.

      So, all ye of little hope, remember that blessed are they who mourn for they shall be comforted.

  9. Miguel says:

    An explanation
    not everyone is for primal therapy
    I want to say unfortunately that not everyone wants to have a great commitment to their health
    Health: How much money is worth?


  10. Tim says:

    I wanted to describe how I felt; that feeling of lost hope. Thank you Margaret, Jack and Phil for your kind responses to the emotional part of what I was trying to say.
    Of course, I did more than that; I traced that lost hope back to what I perceive to be the false promise of Primal therapy.
    Miguel, you say that nobody and solve your problems for you, and that might be true, but isn’t it because we don’t know how to do it that we come to therapy? If we were able to do it ourselves, what the hell are we paying this money for?
    If I remember correctly, there is a passage in Janov’s second book in which he flat out claimed that his therapy never failed. That he had had no failures, absolutely no-one it didn’t work for. He described people asking him to talk about times when he method didn’t work, and wrote that this was impossible. He didn’t say anything about the patients having to do it right, about it only failing if they didn’t try hard enough.
    I was surprised that you describe the therapy as having been “perfected”. It seems an extraordinary claim and to me suggests a desire for something to believe in, rather than simply a tool to help you with your life.
    Gretchen, thanks for responding and I understand your desire to stand up for someone you obviously liked and admired, but may I respectfully point out that I have never heard the followers of any charismatic leader describe him as “phony”.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Tim: quote:- ” If we were able to do it ourselves, what the hell are we paying this money for?”
      There are many things we are able to do ourselves, but we chose to pay someone to do it for us … going to a restaurant for meal; is one of many examples.

      Your mention in Janov’s second book, suggesting he said there were no failures. I have read all of his books and some of them for a second time; but I have no recollection he ever made that claim. If you can quote and give the book name and page number, I would look it up.

      If you’ve been reading all the responses I take you you’ll have read mine about the guy that read my book and got into feelings; and as a result, is now having birth Primals. What he needs is some support for what he is doing. He has on more than one occassion told me just how much my support is helpful to him. I never tell him how it should be done … and I don’t suggest that, in my book either.

      I see you as “nit picking” when it comes to the claim of “perfected” I have never seen or heard anyone, least of Gretchen, claim it has been “perfected”. Perfecting it, Yes! as a therapeutic process. It is indeed a tool for one in life and especially towards parenting. I even feel your children have benefited from you being aware of Primal therapy/theory.

      Last point:- There are plenty of examples of people following a leader, to later, describe that leader as phony. The best example being yourself … and your Irish friend.

      One footnote:- Primal theory states and Primal therapy attempts to get it’s patient into an whole other realm of being ……….. the “feeling realm” that we all had at conception and birth. For those not wanting to go there … that’s their choice.


      • Christopher S. Fite says:

        I think Janov said, in one of his books, something like “I believe that the process of getting well is ineluctable (I think he used that word, or something like that) so long as the patient remains in therapy.”

        • jackwaddington says:

          Christopher: I am not quite sure that is what art meant re “remaining in therapy” Than again what does one mean by “remaining in therapy”.

          I contend I am still in therapy even though I don’t go for sessions or groups and did my final retreat in the summer of 2017.

          Also, I am not sure what your point was. I would like a more definitive answer.


    • Tim, Thanks for responding. I would say I always admired Art but there were days I might not have liked him so much ! I always thought he liked that about me lol! Yes it’s true that those who follow ” charismatic ” leaders might not be likely to describe those leaders as phony. But what you are imagining about Art was not at all the case. The kind of charismatic leaders you refer to can be identified in a number of ways. Two characteristics that come to mind might be a need for obedience and a inability to accept criticism. Neither of these things would have applied to Art at all. Critism was always encouraged and he did not demand obedience. Actually I think he liked his staff to be critical and it was through those many discussions that therapy has evolved. Is it perfected ? Not in my opinion. I think there is always more to learn and I hope that therapy continues to get better with every day. I also don’t recall Art saying that statement about therapy working on everyone nor do I know the context. But if he did I would say that’s not the only sentence he wrote on who is best suited for Primal. It’s not true that I know which Tim you are. If I knew your last name I might find I know you well. But at this point I’m not sure as there have been several Tims over the years. The point is I’m not sure what the specific issues were with you. As for doing therapy on your own vs needing help. I think there are some who do very well on their own. I would not have been one of those people. I also think their are times where we need help or feedback. There are times when we need someone we trust to help us through the blind spots or assist with getting some traction. It’s difficult on a good day to go towards what hurts. Gretchen

      • I have to interject here with an important caveat. While it’s true that Art may have accepted criticism in a private setting with staff, it must be said that his books were written in a complete vacuum with no immediate input from the public at large for the reader to consider. If anyone writes something here on the blog which another person objects to, the critical person can IMMEDIATELY jump in and give a reaction with just as much space allowed as towards the original writer. There was no way for anyone to respond to or criticize what Art wrote in his books for anyone else to see. Also, it’s worth noting Art censored a lot of posts from his own blog,
        In case it’s hard to grasp what I mean, suppose someone was reading the original “Primal Scream” and someone had a serious objection to one of Art’s writing points. What can be done about it so that millions of readers can immediately know someone disagreed with him as it can be done here on the blog? Nothing at all,
        That was a huge luxury afforded to Art which is not available here on the blog: A singular opinion without any possibility of outside public interference or disagreement being known to the reader.

        • A recent example, Barry told me to “fuck off, you insensitive twat” here on the blog right after I made my Montecito comment. What if someone else was mad at Art about something he said in his books and he wanted to say something so the public was aware of it? There is no possibility of retort. Pure silence.

          • I can see where being able to convey a 200-page missive (Primal Scream) towards an audience of millions where public critics have no means of immediately responding (such as done here on the blog) could confer a great sense of paternalistic power & mystique towards the author. I’m mentioning this to explicitly show a tremendous advantage he was working with over the common layman, that is all.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Guru: Not true … one can always write to the author through the publisher.

          I don’t know for certain, but I suspect Art deleted only those responses that were irrelevant or perhaps offensive. Of course that would be from his perspective..

          His blog was very different to this one.


          • Jack: I don’t think you’re seeing exactly what I meant. Even if a million letters or responses were written to Art via his publisher, no one reading his books would have had a chance to see that material in real-time alongside Art’s own text, as can be done here on the blog. A similar procedure would be your posting above where it would only be allowed to be given to Gretchen and no one else here can see it, thus making my words more powerful because they can’t be openly criticized.

            • No one in public would even KNOW that the words were criticized anywhere, thus adding to the paternalistic mystique & power of those words.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Guru: It’s not clear to me what you are trying to get at. Why do you feel Art should be publicly criticized in some public forum. Was he in any different position as any other author????

              You’re sure free to critique Arthur Janov on this blog … if that’s your “wont” .


              • Jack: I am not out to criticize Art specifically. What I am trying to explain are some of the enormous advantages he was working with, especially during the pre-Internet era. In my case, I would have liked to have seen any invisible criticism back when I first started reading his books in 1994, so I could have a properly balanced perspective on things.
                This was one of my main misgivings about Art that I couldn’t clarify very well at the time.

                • Jack, you’ve said in the past that you believe your homosexuality was laid down during birth or even during the pre-natal. Art said in his earliest book that homosexuality is an outgrowth of not having a warm father. Unlike what can be instantly done here on the blog, there is no opportunity to have a paragraph directly below Art’s “warm father” statement to millions of people saying, “Jack Waddington disagrees with me and believes people are born gay.” There is no balanced perspective.

                  • Jack Waddington says:

                    Guru: this last comment of your’s demonstrates to me your “CROOKED THINKING”. It might better explain that phrase, if you were to read that book that I have often recommended to you.

                    I used to believe as many homosexual still do they are born Homosexual/gay. I now KNOW; having had many insights from re-living deep womb feelings that the process FOR ME was started in the womb, even to the extent that I can almost date it because of something my mother told me about her pregnancy with me.
                    However, that event is not the whole of it and certainly the lack of my fathers affection towards me also contributed.

                    For me, the process of life brings up almost daily events in the past are influencing my life daily and that is exactly what I mean when I state: “this therapy is a life long process and not an end game.

                    The end game is death … when I finally feel zero … zilch. There’s nothing for the creature thereafter that was “The ME”. It is why for me to believe in the notion of a greater being living somewhere in the sky, is the fairy tale … conveniently used to NOT face the reality of our past.


                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Guru: When I read “The Primal Scream” I did not need to know what others thought about it. As with all other books I read I access them purely from my own experiences and feelings. If you NEED to know what others feel/think about a book, it suggests to me that you are not enough self assured about yourself . I may be assessing you wrongly, BUT that is what is coming across to me.


                  • Erron says:

                    Guru, there were much more dangerous critics in the age before the internet; they were called book reviewers. In the case of Psychology books, there were also journals like Psychology Today, which if I recall correctly, really got stuck into Art and his therapy on more than one occasion. I think you are over-stating the importance of folks who reply to blog posts, your eminent self notwithstanding, of course 😉

                  • Christopher S. Fite says:

                    In Psychology Today magazine, there was an article about Primal Therapy, from back in the early 1970s or so, which commented on the therapy. There have been other articles over the years about Primal Therapy, maybe even book reviews about it. Any book that becomes a big seller, is likely to be commented about in book reviews, which one can read, to see what others people think about a book.

                • Christopher S. Fite says:

                  As a young person, I believed what Janov wrote.

  11. Patrick says:

    When I see Tim’s responce to Gretchen I feel somewhat ‘ashamed’ like he is ok with it but why not me? Though I do feel I have unfinished business with Gretchen I felt very unfairly treated by her for a long time on the blog but the worst is just being ‘banned’ or as it feels ‘junked’ thrown away like yesterdays dishwater. Or I remember my Mom throwing away the ashed from our fires. It feels like something as bad as that just pure waste water or ashes. From dust to dust which is my little Catholic boy way of thinking about life anyway. One reason for all the money I made in the US I did not have much use for it so therefore wasted it mostly by giving it away to people. My deeper truth in my feelings was……………..uselessness and it all comes to nothing anyway so why not speed up the process a bit.

    I arrived at my brother’s place a day ago and basically I feel scared and sort of all around terrible. I have ‘helped’ him quite a bit over the last few years also so I have some ‘credit’ with him. And nothing he is doing wrong, he has done an awful lot to prepare for me and make me feel welcome. But I get scared I wonder if I can ‘perform’ here in any useful way. I should explain a big reason I came back aside from ‘economics’ is I have this problem with my right foot for a year now, sometimes it’s called ‘drop foot’ and nothing seems to help it. I was hoping drinking plenty spring water which we have here and removing myself from all the EMF pollution of LA might help me. We will have to just see on that one but even here he has wifi in the house and I am even using it right now to write this. But I have some ‘plans’ to eliminate that and ‘wire’ everything, but it gets a bit
    tricky I do not want to come across ‘telling him what to do’ meanwhile I am not doing anything much to help him. The weather is the sort of usual awful at least from my perspective but I have bough a big Russian type coat with a hood and plenty of fur on it. That helps. Speaking of ‘hoods’ one of Gretchen’s zingers to me was she wanted to fit me for a hood, implying I am some nutty KKK type person which I really am not though I have no idea what a KKK person is or anything about them. Maybe I will try to find out. Anyway I really think that kind of stuff Gretchen said to me is so wrong and reflects HER bias, her issues and her own close mindedness. I am after all a ‘primal person’ and kind of following what Tim said Janov said I should not have been ABLE to ‘fail’ even if I tried. Anyway I do not want to go on about it so much but really of course it is fairly uppermost in my mind at least when I go on here.

    I suppose I should ask Gretchen respectfully to give me another chance but I dunno I don’t feel I did so much wrong. I probably went a bit overboard about the “Jews” but a fair amount of that is just rage when I go on here and see so much stuff I posted GONE, to repeat so much ashes thrown away. How could I feel ok about that it feels like such disregard and such an insult. So yes then I tie in Gretchen’s ‘censorship’ with what I do see this Jewish thing of shutting down free speech. That is one of the most extraordinary things to me…………..we grew up in a pretty strick Catholic environment my point being it was not so strong on ‘free speech’ or ‘free thinking’ but it’s like this is worse! and honestly was a big surprise to me. Anyway I am always I think it is fair to say to let bygones be bygones I can do that but it’s hard when another won’t. Even Tim I have had some ‘arguments’ with him and esp after I came back from Ireland in 2016 but it has been a beautiful thing for me the way we can ‘make up’ not in some phony agreement to really airing it out and saying what might seem very hurtful but it’s ok it really is. And I suppose in large measure that is how I feel a person is ‘worth’ something someone who can do that. The ‘throwers away’ the ones who load all their karma or sins on the scape goat and make him wander the desert forever they are the cruel one the unworthy ones, Mind you life is never easy there were 2 goats one was turned into a scape goat but the other was………………..sacrificed. So either way I suppose that’s the choice a scape goat or die. Right now I am actually afraid of dying my health has really took a bad turn and here in the rain wind and gloom and feeling like a nobody I hope I can make it. And that there is something on the bank if I do make it across the river. Sorry anyway I feel so bad it helps me to write here for all my bitching it was my favorite place to vent or whatever so I respectully ask you Gretchen to allow me back. I can promise not to be so horrid to the “Jews” but at the same time would not want to say I will never mention the subject again as I feel it is a very important aspect of life now.

    Leave it there I could go on and on…………….I have a lot ‘stored up’ my voice was taken away and if we want to be ‘primal’ about it it has felt sometimes like I was an infant whose needs were not being met abandoned and left to lie alone in a crib in a separate room so I cried out and yelped and roared sometimes what else could I can I do? And then I am told I cannot do even that, I am saying all this not to say ‘it’s just my feeling’ though of course it is also. But not ONLY that I HAVE some things to say and coming back to Tim he thinks a lot of what I say and think is ‘nonsense’ or ‘rubbish’ don’t you love that English way of dismissing people ‘nonsense’ is a favorite one. But that is ONLY Tim’s opinion or feeling or whatever it does not phase me much at all………..why? because I know better, I have read more and studied more and given it much more thought than Tim ever will. Which is fine he is more balanced than me and don’t need to do time researching some dark corners of life. But that’s me and he is someone else which is great I learn from him I hope he learns something from me

  12. Patrick says:

    I know songs on here don’t really work in that usually they do not translate to other people. But anyway as I was preparing to leave LA I could not stop playing this song, it’s a song about leaving. This immense sadness about ‘who will be there/to take my place’ It echoes all throughout my life leaving my Dad to go to boarding school, leaving Ireland to do PT and now leaving LA to come back here. Maybe leaving life all together in the end that is what will happen. This kind of sadness is deep within

  13. Margaret says:

    I really think now is the time to get the carpal tunnel problem dealt with!
    it is a job related disease and working in a hospital setting you should be medically insured to get proper treatment.
    now seems the time, as it sounds already pretty bad, and you definitely should not wait until you are about to get retired or later!
    please take care of it and do something nice for yourself!
    this seems urgent and important.

  14. When I was around 19 years old I checked myself into a 30-day treatment center for substance abuse. The cost was around $30,000 in today’s dollars. I stayed sober for about 10 months, yet I was still completely miserable and clueless about all the things that were REALLY working against me in life that no one could or would tell me about. When I look back on it, I think about what a scam that was (the hospital closed down some years after I left).
    So, when I hear about how bad it is to be charged $6,000 for completely individualized attention at the Primal places no matter how miserable & pathetic I might be at the moment, that strikes me as a great bargain! We have to remember these therapists are just facilitators for us, not magicians. Honestly, it’s laughable to expect a few therapists fielding requests for help from hundreds of strangers walking into their doors to transform them into superhuman beings. The world is so deeply & insanely fucked it’s simply not possible for therapists to become assembly line miracle workers.

    Did Art make great, perhaps genuinely excited promises to the world that many will become disillusioned with later on as they realize therapy is not magic? I can agree with this, yet I now see why Art HAD to do it this way at the time or nothing would have been accomplished at all from the very beginning.

    • There’s always the option of buying survival supplies from Jim Bakker. Does that sound like a plausible option for deeply troubled souls?

      • Sylvia says:

        I do believe we should be prepared for natural disasters, earthquakes, floods etc. But the good preacher is tapping into one’s reservoir of fear to make a profit. Was that a Tammy Faye look-a-like next to him. Old disgraced preachers don’t fade away like soldiers, they just get buggier. Had a good laugh anyways. I do know you shouldn’t mention going to potty and show pictures of food in the same container you expect to use for ‘going.’ Ol’ Bakker needs the help from an ad man.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Guru: I totally agree.


  15. Otto Codingian says:

    these poor cats and dogs. they are bored to death. the white and black cat from the deceased neighbor lady wants to go outside but we don’t want him to get run over. he still appears sickly after his stay in the hospital or maybe the 15 day anti-biotic is killing him. there is a cat outside that the other cat wants to meet. i cant play too much with these cats or dog. the dog, when younger, used to play with itself, like dogs do. the white cat probably played with a chihuahua and a big white collie before the neighbor died. now they are also gone. no one played much with me when i was a child. comic books and tv and then real books.

  16. Otto Codingian says:

    p, leaving is just such a bitch. good luck where you may go.

  17. Otto Codingian says:

    and since i am always interested in the beginnings of mankind, did a little african neanderthal turn around and look back at the place in africa where he was born and grew up, as his tribe was walking away from that place? was he saying goodbye to his little valley since his tribe needed to find food and water?

  18. Otto Codingian says:

    maybe. or it was me, for the times i left good places.

  19. Otto Codingian says:

    sylvia, maybe trump will build a bridge going to his wall. you get to that bridge by going down the old dirt road. but it is a long trip, so you might stop for the night, and it could be dark and lonely, so you would have to do whatever gets you through the night.

  20. Otto Codingian says:

    i really did like that john lennon put the physical body rhythms, and of course, emotion, into his songs, such as old dirt road. that really told my body how to get into primal.

  21. Otto Codingian says:

    after i got out of the navy, i wanted to rent a housed where i would have a room in which i could primal. not that i really knew a damn thing about primal except what my navy buddies and the book and lennon gave me in his songs.i found a house in a bad neighborhood with a good room, but poor people might not have believed so much in my dream. i pulled the nails out of the windows that were keeping the windows shut for whatever reason. then my tape player got stolen. so much for my dreams.

  22. Otto Codingian says: john lennon posters. if this goes to the right page, there is a poster of him and may pang (maybe). i think that was a little time after he left primal.

  23. Otto Codingian says:

    well, there is a wistful phrase: “coming to grips with one’s maturation while letting go of one’s youthful abandon. “

  24. Otto Codingian says:

    i guess mccartney sings a pretty good song too. Paul McCartney – Let Me Roll It – Lyrics

  25. Hey Guru, Would that not be the same with any book written? That the reader needs to use their own judgement? I guess we could also argue that by putting your thoughts in writing you actually leave yourself more, not less, open to criticism. Not to mention that books are reviewed and discussed. Gretchen

    • Gretchen: I slept on this and realized I forgot to add that there’s a big difference between critical reviews of, say, a Steven King work of fiction as compared to a nonfiction book introducing an entirely new medical paradigm as was done by the “Primal Scream”. With the latter it seems more crucial for the reader to understand what criticisms may lie out there which are unknown. Here on the blog the reader doesn’t have to work hard at all to find someone’s instant response or criticism to what someone wrote because it pops right up alongside the original text. I remember around 1994-1996 when I had to hunt very diligently in several different libraries (both academic and standard) for any magazine or medical journal reviews of Art’s monologues. It was an exceptionally difficult task as compared to the infinite ease of criticism we can find here on the blog.

      • On a scale of 1 to 10 I still rank Primal as a “7” or “8” in terms of effectiveness (generally positive). It’s just that I want to make sure that I hear from all sides of the argument as much as I possibly can before I personally jump in. Somehow I gathered the sense that Art relished the pre-Internet days when public (not internal staff) criticisms could be more easily quieted. This was one concerning factor which actually drove me to visit Vivian’s place instead.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Guru: It is coming across to me that you are still “nit-picking”.
        If what you are really trying to say is, that he could well have been a con-man; I feel that the critics of the time would have let us know their view as they would have greater recourse to reviews the book/s.


  26. Margaret says:

    I have read the Primal scream several times making notes on the pages and underlining stuff, before i finally went to therapy, two decades later.
    my expectation, or hope I would be so ready for feelings pouring out that in six weeks I’d probably go back home relieved of most anxiety and pain, was not so much caused by Art suggesting that in his book, as that was not where my hope stemmed from and actually I did not read that.
    I think it might be our feelings being stirred to come towards the surface while reading is what makes us feel we couldn’t be more ready, as finally we get in touch with where the root of what we feel comes from.
    my guess is most patients feel like that when arriving.
    my other guess is what happened to me upon starting also happens to most patients, namely defense striking and that outburst of screams I expected being the furthest thing on my mind when finally sitting in that little room with the therapist.
    i remember so clearly how Barry asked me what I was feeling, and I was baffled, had really no clue what he was asking me, let alone what to answer…
    I also remember mentioning my childhood as one of the happiest one could imagine, ha, but well, during my intensive Barry and I managed to go deeper than that surface I had created, and my first breakthrough reconnected me in an intense way with my four year old self, and rightaway I felt entirely certain I had done the very best thing I could do by starting this therapy.
    it did not really bother me it would take longer than I had expected, as I had been aware from the start it had only been a hopeful assumption of mine I would be able to rush through the process.
    my point being it was not so much in Art’s book as in our hopeful souls there would be some instant relief and cure.
    I am grateful for that strong impact of my first feeling as it reassured me completely and made it easier to work through the hard times, which mainly occurred in those first years every time I was working up to some feeling, which could be days of increasing agony.
    still I can’t find the words that express how precious the gift is I got from therapy, becoming my own best friend again and so much more.
    thank you Arthur Janov and all the others having assisted and helped to form the theory, get the books written and edited and the therapy started and developed up to this point.
    it is precious and deserves to grow and get all the credit it deserves, and as someone mentioned recently, it would be nice if it would become a normal part of life, like gym class at school, but emotional health class or something, just the accessibility of safety to express and share one’s feelings for everyone.
    that after all is the core positive message, regardless of it being in formal primal therapy or otherwise.

  27. Phil says:

    Guru, if you had access to those public comments about primal therapy and Art Janov do you think things would have gone different for you?
    After I read the primal scream I decided that the therapy was the possible answer to my problems.
    I went to the public library to try to find more information on it. Important theories and books are usually commented on in other books; so that’s where you can see some of what people think. I found very little, however. I found another one of Janov’s books, I’m not remembering for sure which one. I looked through all the psychology books to find mention of primal therapy and there was almost nothing. This was in 1979. What I did find was “Going Sane”, written by the Center for Feeling Therapy people who claimed that their therapy and theory was better than primal, but I wasn’t impressed with that book. The one thing I didn’t do was try to talk to anyone about my decision to do therapy; not my family or even anyone at the Institute. So my decision process was excessively self reliant, part of my neurotic pattern, the same as for other decisions I made. More information was available, just not so easily obtained as it is now. I tend to be a skeptic, so I didn’t assume that every word in “The Primal Scream” was the absolute truth, but just the same, I found the book very convincing. If I had discussed it with people, probably nothing anyone said would have changed my opinion.


  28. Leslie says:

    Wouldn’t it be healthy, and hopefully what most of us do in practicing Primal Therapy – to gravitate and do what is right for us – whereby we see and make positive changes in our lives. That we have and appreciate the skilled help and guidance of Gretchen and Barry, and the warm support of the Primal community helps us face and diminish our individual pain.

    If it is not what you want, need, see the benefit from etc. – Move On.

    Find out what does work for you.
    Oh – can’t find anything that works…hmmm.

  29. Guru, I always think it’s a positive to have relevant information at my disposal when making any decision. I also assume that everyone has an opinion and half the people I ask will be pro and the other half con on most issues. In the end you can only weigh all that and go with your own instincts. The only thing I find a bit confusing is that it almost sounded as though you felt Art wrote a book and then kept any critism to himself. As though he was refusing to release the internet to the general pubic. Obviously we just did not have access to as much information in those days as we do now. Of course the internet might have brought other issues into the decision making mix. I do think in the end we have to go with what feels right. For so many of us there was not much choice but to try Primal. We had already gone through the other available options. I’m not sure anyone wants to need therapy and I for one will be the first to say I preferred to avoid pain but hey no choice. Gretchen p.s. People will sometimes say ” I hate this therapy , I don’t want to be here “. I always say ” me too”.

    • I don’t have much further to say on this matter. As I said before, my own opinions on Primal are generally positive (I did way too much crying to be negative about it), but I do have concerns about any sincere criticisms being muffled. I only think that all criticisms should fairly co-exist with the main Primal material, so anyone can reach the best decisions possible for themselves.
      The concern I just mentioned above was one of the three reasons I went to Vivian’s place instead of Art’s.

      • A final consideration: How likely would Tim’s post regarding Patrick from the previous page have survived the filters to see the light of day on Art’s blog? The fact that it is being openly addressed here does reaffirm to me my decision about going to Vivian’s place.

  30. Margaret says:

    I had a nice afternoon visiting for the first time a lady in her forties who is gradually going blind due to retinities pigmentosa.
    she is very active and lives with her 15 year old son.
    she does volunteer work in a nursing home as well.
    talking about our past she told me how her husband committed suicide when their son was 4 years old, which is such a shocking story. he had a good job, a young kid, and she was taking good care of the household despite already having bad eyesight.
    there was no apparent reason for the suicide except his own internal issues.
    of course she had very mixed feelings, grief and anger, and she only told her son the truth about the suicide when he was 11 1/2 years old.
    it must have been so difficult for him to process, it seemed a good idea of her in a way to wait until he wa as a bit older, but of course it can also have added some bad feelings of betrayal to the lot who knows.
    she and her son get along very well luckily, and I feel very good about getting to know them, hopefully a nice friendship can develop.
    but wow, some life stories are truly impressive as to what people need to cope with.
    she would like to come along on a sailing trip in spring, so I look forward to that.

  31. Margaret says:

    we met on a demonstration of a new tool developed for people with a visual impairment.
    a tiny camera that can be attached to glasses, which can detect text on a page in front of you and transpose it to audio text right away.
    sounded very interesting despite it being expensive, between 3500 and 4500 Euro depending of whether it is also capable of recognizing faces.
    but trying it out I found out it divedes the text in blocks, in which you can’t navigate word by word or line by line.
    I told the salesman I had two aps on my Iphone, one free and one costing 100 Euro, which actually seem to perform better.
    the free ap gives a description in detail of any picture you take, and the 100 Euro one can transpose texts you take a picture of and even can save a file from them.
    also navigating through the text in detail is possible.
    the salesman had to admit he can’t sell to users of iPhones, he was very honest and straightforward about that.
    saved me a lot of money, and made me appreciate more the aps I already have.
    that lady also possessed an iPhone, as a matter of fact al the five blind interested people did, so not a good selling day for the guy…
    what I liked about that lady was that she had exactly the same feelings about people we both know, and was very outspoken about it.
    she visited the same school for adults who lose (part of) their eyesight, and liked and disliked the same teachers I did for the same reasons, in an exceptionally similar way, which shows me we are very much on the same wavelength.
    I like her resilience, positivity and strength.
    i also feel some concern about her son, who seemed somewhat silent which made me wonder if he was depressed maybe, but of course that is just a speculation knowing his childhood trauma.
    it must be awful to first lose your dad at the age of four to then hear in your early teens it had been a suicide.
    the poor boy must imo feel he was not worthwhile enough for his dad or something similar, wish I could help him with any feelings he must have on the issue.
    luckily his mom seems a very warm and strong person being there for him as a priority in her life.
    her telling me very personal stuff about herself made me open up and tell stuff about me I would have held back on otherwise on a first meeting.
    so well, I hope this friendship develops, as I would like to start doing stuff with her, joining possibly some of the activities for blind people she is a member of.
    she is inspiring in other words.

    • Larry says:

      She sounds like an interesting person Margaret.

    • Leslie says:

      Great to meet new people you really ‘click’ with isn’t it Margaret. As you say – “she is inspiring” and I think the whole experience is – when it happens for me.
      I’m sure both of them will like having you in their lives so much!

  32. Phil says:

    That’s great you’ve made a new friend.

  33. Phil says:

    This past weekend we moved my younger son to his new home in a dormitory building in NYC. I am feeling very excited for him as it’s a great neighborhood in the middle of the city and a very short commute to the college campus. He’s starting out on an exciting new adventure and I feel like I am doing it too, or would like to be. Both my wife and I were very impressed seeing the neighborhood around the dormitory building. We were even talking about moving back to the city some time in the future when we retire. There is so many things to do and such convenience. It get’s tiresome having to get in a car for every little errand. I’m also already missing my son as I see his empty room and finished basement where he hung out. We’ll see how often he’ll come home on weekends. We are moving towards an empty nest. One bird has already flown, and the other is flexing his wings.

  34. Margaret says:

    I hope in a few years you can start redecorating little guest nests for some grand birdies…
    you;d make a great grandpa!

  35. Margaret says:

    Larry and Leslie,thanks for your enthusiasm, but in the past I noticed a couple of times the degree to which I experience a ‘click’ is not necessarily the same as how it is for the other.
    often in friendships as well I sometimes have to diminish my expectations.maybe my need is in play here as well, but that is not the only factor i think.
    different chemistries with different people.

  36. Margaret says:

    started to notice a mounting feeling of irritation , as when tearing up some cardboard would not go well and starting to curse without enough satisfaction about that…
    at some point imagined being in group, first with a real baseball bat but then changing that into an inflatable one, and then hitting different persons, saying stuff like you don’t respect me enough, you don’t care about me, you don’t let me feel you like me, you don’t love me enough!
    feeling all the need I focused more on the underlying feeling and finally came out to the feeling ‘I don’t matter…’..
    that seemed to be the core, a bleak hopeless feeling full of sadness and loneliness…
    still it feels good I finally got in touch with it, it is so all encompassing in its influence on present life and all its decisions and challenges and fears…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: A very interesting revelation. Mine was I wanted to be “a somebody” … because my daddy always seem to feel that others peoples kids were more important that his own … especially NOT me. I’m not sure if that is less painful than yours; but it did make me strive hard to be “somebody”.

      It manifested itself, eventually in wanting to be an actor, on a stage, where I would then be ‘ostensibly’ be important; and if I was important then I surely would be somebody.

      It took me quite a long time in therapy to come to that realization … only then did I feel I didn’t want to play-act someone else’s drama … only my own. I now feel comfortable just being me, and knowing that I am important to me … even if that means I’m not important to anyone else.


      • Phil says:

        Jack, I have had something similar about a feeling of wanting to be important. I had a mother who ignored me and everything she did seemed to show I was unimportant. I can be triggered about that in relationships; also at work, where I’d like to be doing something important or seen as important. It will be difficult to completely resolve all of that because of how little I got from my mother.
        Margaret, what you say sounds similar where you talk about the feeling “I don’t matter”. Do you relate that to something in your history?

    • FRED says:

      Welcome the the club.

  37. Margaret says:

    as a child I felt my dad was very distant and he did not want me to bother him most of the time.
    my mom was very different, with her I felt I had to protect myself at times from being emotionally swallowed, as in many ways it was often about her needs, her being the little child .
    today it struck me the feeling is not about it being like that necessarily always, but if the feeling was unbearable as a kid at some point that was enough to suppress it and hide it from conscience as much as possible.
    in a way it is a simple feeling not needing that much explanation, but of course the situation and causes can be many.
    ‘what about me?’, who wants to know and who really cares? who cares enough to want to try and make me feel OK?

    as a child I see myself as somewhat lost, in a somewhat chaotic environment, bracing myself for what might occur.
    and none of it was actually violent or that terrible, but I did pick up pain and vulnerability and need al around, and fear for that matter, so first I needed to try and make it all OK for everyone so maybe my own needs could get met, I feel sad writing this, it is all a bit confused and confusing.

    but well, a good thing happened on my way back from university as the taxi driver turned out to be my neighbor from above.
    I have started an insurance claim for a water leaking from his bathroom, so well, being in the taxi with him and starting a chat I thought this is the moment to bring it up.
    that went well, as I told him he could just file it through to the landlord etc, and we talked for a long time about living in that house, he thinks of moving but is not sure.
    we then ended up talking about religion as he asked me if I was Jewish as well, and it became an interesting conversation about god and heaven and believing or not etc.
    very good for him and me having been out of speaking terms for the last few months after the water leaking incident.
    he enjoyed it as well so I said whenever he and me would have time and feel like it it would be nice continuing the conversation.
    it simply feels good to have been able to not argue or get into a quarrel but to solve it by being gentle and open towards him.
    which was even nicer than expected.
    as you say, Jack, the main thing is to be important to ourselves, it makes a world of difference.
    I feel that more and more, what I feel about myself is what counts.
    in the conversation with my neighbor I also said I feel like wanting to do what is right not because of the reward of some heaven, but just for doing what seems good.
    having these values internalized seems even better than doing it to get rewarded, but hey, of course it would be nice to have some nice heaven waiting for us where all would be perfect for everyone for eternity, but heaven would not be heaven without cats, and the rest of the lot, haha!
    so back to the garden of Eden maybe, but hm, I don’t count on it, we better take care of this here garden…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: You saying:- “I also said I feel like wanting to do what is right not because of the reward of some heaven, but just for doing what seems good.”
      My reason for doing the “right thing”, is not for it’s righteousness. BUT because it makes me feel good having done it and especially if that encourages a better relationship.

      The who God thing for me, is a means to NOT face the reality that:- there is being conscious while I exist on planet earth. Period end.

      Dividing ourselves up into different nations, races, culture, and worst of them all; our different ways of believing in a super power.
      One of my great insights was:- to realize I was my own super power


    • Larry says:

      You seem to be becoming more open and expressive in your writing Margaret. You seem more grounded, sensitive and wise.

  38. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi everyone: I have just received an email from Danielle at the Casa in Monticito along with some pictures of the devastation. I am sending to the blog the message she sent me, but don’t know how to send the pictures. I have asked Bernadette to send them, if she or Mark know how.

    Here’s her message to me:- “Hi Jack. These are some of the photos that have been recently taken. It’s just breath taking. Like something out of a science fiction. We are hanging in there. La Casa De Maria laid off the staff which was really heart breaking. I’m well trying to get thru this. I hope you are well in the land of the nether ❤️”


  39. Margaret says:

    that is how I meant it, not in the way of good as in righteousness, but as in this is truely what feels best, the right thing to do.
    in the taxi with my neighbour I mentioned how crazy it is that religions who on top of things share their roots, like judaism, islam and christianity, would fight about which god is the true god, and kill each other with that as an excuse.
    pretty crazy to kill for any religion really, but anyway.
    come to think of it, the three religions i mentioned seem to actually go back to the worshipping of Mithras, some thousand(s) years BC, who also had his own myth about being born in a cave from a virgin, with a comet leading the way for the wise men, ha!
    but I really feel so relieved about this pleasant conversation with my neighbor as for me it changes the whole atmosphere feeling on friendly terms with him again, better than we ever were as we never had a proper talk really.
    small things can make a big difference..

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Yes, I kinda knew that was the way you meant it.
      I was attempting to take it all away from all those ‘opposites’ like:- good/bad, right/wrong, true/false, even such things as up/down, and left/right.

      To use a phrase from Einstein “Relativity theory”; everything is relative to something. I personally would want only to see what is relative to me. I find, for me, is to use the “I” word. My reason:- is to suggest that it’s how I see see it. My favorite one is:- “I like” or “I don’t like”. It then becomes unarguable. Whereas all those others are indeed arguable and as an unintended consequence, lead to all those things that happen in the world like, slavery, punishment, wars, one set of peoples against another set, etc.
      It all stated out subliminally by trying to control nature, then control people, then put one culture against another. My very religious mother was for ever quoting the bible as if it held some ‘universal’ truth … yet if looked into carefully, is full of some of the most terrible abominations. One that struck me recently was remembering how she would quote Jesus as saying:- “He who is without sin; cast the first stone”. Subliminally suggesting it is OK to bury a “loose” in sand up to her neck … even if no-one was sin-less enough to then throw a stone at her defenseless head. The males … well they were only doing what is right for all men to do … without any reprisal?????????????

      It’s the progression of neurosis. Not only are we unable to stop the progression … even worse we don’t even see a way to prevent it. To quote Art Janov:- “we’re looking in all the wrong places for answers”.


    • Patrick says:

      Unfortunately Margaret a lot of that imo comes under the heading of ‘wouldn’t it be nice’ or ‘isn;’t it a great pity’ and ‘things might be otherwise’…………….that’s true of course but also I think it helps to dig a bit deeper plus the fact that things are very often not as we would wish them to be. Doing that though runs the risk of being politically incorrect not to mention ‘banning’ or at an even worst situation jail.

      I was struck last weekend here in Ireland there was a fair amount of ‘Holocaust remembering’ going on as it was the official ‘Holiday’ of that event. And I could only think the Irish have left their much more ‘native’ religion fade into nothingness only to be replaced by this imo modern and dangerous one. A religion above all to justify continual war. Not good!

  40. Margaret says:

    wow, I hope you are right, smiley!

  41. Margaret says:

    I have just been watching part of one of Louie’ Theroux famous documentaries, this time about the heroin addictions in Huntington.
    while I went to the toilet, I was thinking about my brother and how he sees me, and what I would say to him about how I feel towards him…
    first thing was how I looked up to him as a kid, and then there was also some fear of being disapproved of, and imagining saying that to him, that I am/was scared of his disapproval suddenly made me cry.
    i think it is doubtful I will ever talk to him like this, as I think it would make him very uncomfortable, but I think the way we are getting closer these last years is a form of healing anyway.
    what I wrote about last week, that moment of feeling a connection, is part of that.
    it is very confronting to listen to all the personal interviews Louie has with those addicted persons and their family, and to see the emergency staff pull overdosed people through, bringing them back from the verge of death…
    and after all I was able to break out of my serious addiction back in the nineties and to rebuild a new life, which sadly enough is exceptional for heroin addictions.
    maybe there lays a good field for me to do some volunteer work come to think of it. I once tried to apply in the Free clinic but back then they did not need anyone, but I could start looking again.
    boy, this documentary is heartbreaking at times…
    Louie Theroux makes truely mind opening focus.

  42. Otto Codingian says:

    Dog Adopts Baby Opossum – Animal Friendship | Myrtle Beach Safari

  43. Sylvia says:

    How special that relationship is between the dog and opossum, a real friendship between them.

  44. Otto Codingian says:

    was there more screaming in the early years of pt, or was jl just a quick starter? John Lennon – Mother

  45. Otto Codingian says:

    darn sylvia you just had to say that to the man with no closeness to any people! ha! lol.
    you phrased your comment so beautifully! soft and tender.

  46. Otto Codingian says:

    not sure why this makes me cry or why i don’t have this, what he is saying, close happy relationship. Paul McCartney & Wings – Hi Hi Hi (1972) oh yeah, i kind of remember, mom. grandma. aunt, uncle, aunt, uncle etc

  47. Otto Codingian says:

    i can barely even say (grumbly) hi to wife, let alone (happy) hi hi hi. what a fucking lack.

  48. Otto Codingian says:

    but this one really breaks me into a bucket of sobbing tears
    “the years have passed so quickly”
    sent it to my kids and told them “good luck on your lives!”
    I Know (I Know)

  49. Otto Codingian says:

    don’t know what is wrong with me tonite. everything makes me cry.
    The Wait for Water | & Stella Artois

  50. Patrick, I did not respond to your earlier request to be unblocked because frankly I wanted to give it some thought. To be honest I felt badly for you and you did sound lonely and distraught initially. I really don’t like asking you or anyone else to leave but at the same time I know it is impossible for you to control yourself and sooner rather than later you will be launching into a bitter diatribe . Also recently you tried posting several things on the blog and you were blocked. That began an assault of emails sent to me privately, I believe there were around ten over a period of a few days. I can only describe them as exceeding insulting and abusive. As you are aware 99 percent of this blog has asked you to go . The one thing I am grateful for is that at the moment your rage is focused on me. That being said it will only take one person confronting you before you turn your rage towards the next person. I really can’t allow that. Again, in my opinion this is not anger but abuse. We have all had pain but that’s not an excuse for speaking to anyone the way you have spoken to me and others. You seem to struggle with the ability to imagine how your words might effect those around you. So though I do feel badly for you I just feel it’s best you are not part of the blog at the moment. I will give you the chance to have your response. Gretchen

    • Jo says:

      I am appalled you’ve been in receipt of around 10 emails of insults and abuse, Gretch. It’s awful this has also being going on ‘behind the scenes’ as well as the past blogs.

    • Jo says:

      Thanks for sharing the link Gretch…it’s such a devastation- awful for the staff, though such a relief they got out and were safe. Sad all round..

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Gretchen: I too got some pictures from Danielle about the devastation there and the layoffs. But nothing as good as this video. It saddens me greatly … I have many memories of some great retreats there. Good to see
      Casa San Ysidro survived.


  51. Patrick says:

    Gretchen: Thanks for replying and and also making it clear that I can reply. It seems that might be all I should say right now as it has really been all I have wanted. As for specifics I don’t really like the tone of it {what else is new?) and you play dirty and cheap. In my opinion yes you do. Now the 9 or 10 emails will achieve some kind of perverse ‘iconic’ status probably and already we have the usual English toffee nose s is the air saying how ‘awful’ it is. Said in an uptight fake ‘upper class’ voice ‘oh how perfectly awful that you had to put up with this from that awful man Patrick. Oh my dear the world today can be so dreadfully awful. It’s truly awful isn’t it’ Sickening to me at least. Anyway thanks Gretchen I have to get ready to go to Mass and just for people’s information those emails were mostly just links to stuff I thought Gretchen might profit from reading. Sorry I probably did go a bit ‘awful’ sometimes but to me a blog or organization which holds itself out as a safe place to have all kinds of contrary thoughts to ‘censor’ like this is well……………a bit ‘awful’ and not in a good way at all. I also go ‘overboard’ because you shut me up and shut me down and honestly that does enrage me at times. BTW did you read any of the links or read any of the stuff I sent you I feel it would be better doing that and keeping it at that than playing to this audience who predictably will ‘support’ you starting with the traumatized boarding school/cult member who can be counted on to find the whole thing ‘dreadful and awful’. I used to ‘love’ England and the English now I am not too sure………….

    And imo people might look to this for the reason for the gradual disappearance of primal therapy than any conspiracy by the medical industry though I suppose that is/was a factor also. But I feel our first responsibility is to be consistent and honest with ourselves which I feel as an organization primal has not been for the most part. That’s a very stubborn fact and will not go away by bleating about how ‘awful’ someone is

  52. Yes I looked at and listened to every one of the things that you sent. Jo is entitled to her opinions as you are yours. It’s just that it is relentless and frankly compulsive in your case. Plus you seem unable to sense the hurtfulness of your words not to mention you go on the attack when anything but positive comments are made ( as evidenced by your reaction to Jo). That’s why this site is not the best place for you. Rest assured with all your talk of censorship you have been given the opportunity to express yourself countless times. I don’t think it will ever be enough. Anyway nothing more to say . Gretchen

  53. Jack Waddington says:

    Trying to add something and having some difficulty Jack

  54. Jack Waddington says:

    When I first started therapy; after my first three weeks of intensive, there was a follow-up group arranged for that starting group. We were each of us asked about what we felt about our first three weeks. I was shattered, as I had thought the whole purpose of the follow-up group was to tell US, patients, how we’d each progressed. Wow! I thought “what is all this about us/me saying how I feel about my/our first three weeks????”

    Slowly it dawned on me ……… this therapy is about my feeling, and APPROPRIATE EXPRESSION (my emphasis) of those feeling. A great insights in retrospect.

    Yesterday, there was a case in point between Jim and I, where we were fitting into the ceiling two new lamp fixtures. I, having earned my living once as an electrician, assumed that I would be running the operation with Jim as my helper. Oh no!!!!! that was NOT his idea. When a couple of things weren’t going right, and both of us were getting neck ache due to looking up to the ceiling to fix it all in … he started to YELL at me; like it was all my fault. I was DEEPLY HURT, … but I knew not to respond … but was mumbling to myself about the all the hurt. I wanted to say out loud “It’s not my fault …. Nooooooooo! …. it’s because it’s not going our way”.
    I know why Jim re-acts this way …. But that does not prevent my deep HURT when he does it. He does it because he does not know how to APPROPRIATELY respond to his feeling of frustration … to the extent that I can actually pin-point the moment in his life when it got started … from his telling me about it. However, my knowing all this STILL does not prevent MY HURT. All I am able to do is express it in such a way as to prevent it from spiraling out of control and getting worse.

    The very same applies to someone throwing insults at me. I can only allow myself to feel insulted: which DOES happen. I need to own my feelings. The ‘blame game’ does not work for me. I have no idea why other people behave the way they do … I only KNOW how I feel … then, do the best I know how, to express it APPROPRIATELY. “Acting it out” is NOT appropriate for me.


  55. Margaret says:

    a while ago I mentioned the deepsea ‘anglefish’, or ‘hengelfish’, who have a huge mouth and lure prey by dangling a fake tiny fish before their own mouths.
    the females are big, the males sometimes half a million times smaller, with some species.
    the males have huge nostrils, as they need to find a female to survive.
    once they find a female, they bite and grip themselves tight to her, excrete a chemical wi
    hich then do
    issolves their mouth parts and the female skin so they grow toggether.
    I thought , had heard, the rest of the male up to his testicles was then slowly absorbed by the d
    female, and the male actually ceased existing, but it is slightly different.
    the eyes and some parts of the males indeed get absorbed as the male does not need them anymore, but they stay alive, attached to the female who sends messages through her blood to the males when she is fertile, who then release their sperm at the right moment.
    one female can carry several males, more than ten sometimes.
    all of this is necessary as they live so deep there is little food available and two big fish would need too much food.
    so here is a solution, one big female with a huge mouth full of fierce teeth and a dangling luminescent bait to dangle before her mouth, and tiny males who can grow into her and feed on the nutrients she produces…
    amazing nature.
    fire ants survive all the floodings of their jungle by forming huge rafts with their own bodies in which way they can survive months of floating around as a very strong raft.
    tiny spiders , very tiny, travel on the wind with one long thread and even cross the oceans that way, as they don’t spend any energy travelling like that. they conquered the entire world that way…
    an out of the box idea to travel to other galaxies , travel light, keep your energy long enough, maybe also some kind of hibernation or winter sleep might be useful…
    not unimaginable…

  56. Margaret says:

    like Gretchen I too felt bad for you when you wrote about the problems with your foot and finding a good way to integrate in and add to the life on your brother’s farm.
    but I held back on writing as I remembered these honest moments of vulnerability are rare and you tend to always let your anger and bitterness thake over.
    that is sad as it can only increase your loneliness.

    you are good at turning things around, like saying you are mainly so angry because of your ban, when actually you were finally banned after a lot of tolerance and warnings about what you kept posting on this blog.

    if you prefer bitterness and anger over trust and honesty, there remains little we can say as you clearly don’t want to hear it, which is actually very sad.

  57. Phil says:

    Today when I cried I got a glimmer of something positive to remember about my mother, to put together with the sadness of losing her. Extremely vague, mostly just a feeling, so I don’t know if it’s imaginary or what. I have to think that it couldn’t have been all bad with her, especially in my earliest years when she wasn’t quite so sick. I’m pretty sure I won’t be remembering anything positive about her last years when she must have been severely depressed and wouldn’t speak to me or even look my way. I’ve been severely blocked because of all the very traumatic stuff.
    Today I was feeling that being able to remember something good about my mother isn’t just a trivial desire, but actually something key to my progress. Just whatever positive there is to remember. So we’ll see what happens.
    My son has been living in his college dormitory in Manhattan since last week. He says he’s loving it over there and is in no rush to come back home for a visit. It’s a great neighborhood with a lot of things going on and a very short train ride to the campus. He lives for skateboarding and there’s plenty of good spots to do that. I’m really happy about all this. It’s his first time living away from home and that will be an education in itself. Also, the city is where the jobs are when he eventually graduates, so it’s a good thing he likes it there.

    • Larry says:

      Those are some interesting developments in your life Phil.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: That sounds really great about your son, and your obvious caring about him.
      Very sad story about your mom. It’s more than amazing how it affects us for life, from those very early days.
      Good to read you.


  58. Leslie says:

    It all sounds good Phil. Not without pain and loss, and then there is missing our children
    (big time for me!)
    – but all good in what we need for ourselves, and want for our children…
    I love when we get to see, talk to and even email or text with our sons – but they too are grown and busy with their fun & productive lives.

  59. Margaret says:

    nice to hear your son is settling in so well there!
    it also sounds like your feelings are coming to an important stage. I would not worry about your feelings still being vague, yours are early and for me all those feelings or most of them are also without specifics,just the body remembering and brining up a certain feeling without specific memory attached. early, or a bundle of events are probably brought up in another way than one core special traumatic event, and for all of us it has its unique ways.
    you are a very honest person so you can trust yourself and go with the flow I believe.
    I truly hope some nice things will finally rise to the surface, even while it makes the sadness also bigger in a way as to that ‘good’ time ended before it even properly began, sadly enough…

  60. Margaret says:

    am followning a program on tv about female ‘circumcision, althoough the practice is in some place so horrible that word does not cover the atrocity of what is done to these little girls.
    a lady to whom it had been done was so open , sensitive and intelligently talking about it, so feeling , it was heartbreaking.
    there was also partly scenes of the practice on girls, and about how they were kept isolated for several days, until ‘able’ to walk again, after having been told they should not talk about it ever.
    the girls do not know what is going to happen, go with their mom to see a girlfriend or wahtever lie that can be used to take them along easily, but upon arrival to a remote house, women take them with them, and the mom lets them be taken. the girl gets cut up with an old razor blade, screams for her mom for help, she does not come.

    the lady talks about the horror, and mostly the feeling of betrayal and of being left alone without help .
    she talks about how afterwards her parents look like strangers, ‘who are those people that could let this happen to me?’, and how she cannot trust the world anymore.
    on top of al of that she felt terribly guilty about feeling like that , about not being able to trust her parents anymore…

    the practice exists in many places, over different religions, from way before islam, while now in many places it is assumed it is the Koran prescribing it. not true.
    the lady says the only reason to do this to little girls is to suppress them, to suppress women.
    she talks about how incredibly humiliating and traumatic it is, and how huge the impact on self-confidence.

    I am so full of respect for women like this who have held on to themselves to find a way out of it and to testify and fight against the practice.
    t strikes me as a valuable cause to support, also financially, they organize rescue for children and education and schooling etc.
    heartbreaking and inspiring at the same time.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: In response to your. These kind of event just drive me ‘up-the-wall’ it is so, so. so cruel.
      I also see on the news about all the cruelty to women and girls around the world being raped in such a cruel way then some even killed afterwards. The “put-down” of the female goes back a long way. I remember even from my young school days, boys talking about women as being there for the no other reason than to please the men/boys.

      It’s why the “Me To” movement is so important now, and still so many men don’t ‘get it’. I could never quite get my head around it since I had two sister within two and a half years of my age and a mother I so loved. That was how I say girls and women. then there was my Granny who so adored me.

      “What came first the chicken or the egg”.. Said another way “women neglecting their babies and perhaps especially her baby boys” OR women being so abused, that they could not help but have no feelings for their babies.

      I take you up on the comment you made sometime back on arguing against the abolition of money, suggesting that there would be so much ‘raping and crime’. It’s happening right now and we DO have money. I contend it’s worth a try … to see if your contention will ‘bear-out’, OR mine, were things might … just might be a whole lot different. Cos no-one knows or could know until we give it a try.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Correction:- I stated “That was how I say girls and women”. It should have read:- “That was how I saw girls and women”. Jack

  61. Jack Waddington says:

    All the killing and raping and senseless wars got me a thinking as well as it is bothering, saddening,and frustrating me.
    We talk of “Weapons of mass destruction; the nukes”. My take is there is a bigger weapon than those:- It’s ‘military departments’ Armies, navies and air forces. They are mass killing machines. Run by government by people so cut off from feeling the life within themselves.


    • Christopher S. Fite says:

      And there’s so much military thinking in the U.S.–and nationalism. I think we need world government. I think Iraqi civilians’ lives are every bit as important as U.S. lives, that people all over the world are of equal value. We shouldn’t have nations that go to war over resources, killing and destroying each other. How about the United Nations being the world government–I think the U.N. is more humane than the U.S.

      • Christopher S. Fite says:

        And why the religious wars? It’s just a bunch of groups with different opinions about what happens when we die.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Christopher: Your ideas seem very much in line with mine. I have bee with these notions for many years going back to my mid 20’s. I feel the last thing we need is a world government…. for IMO it is governments and governing that is the problem.

        It’s worth a thought … BUT is governing and law-making creating criminals, in-an-of-tself more than 50% of our human problem (the major one being neurosis).

        I have written a short book (30 pages) about my thoughts and feelings based on most of this and after a lot of reading, for the idea that I am proposing has been out there for over 150 years.

        Should you send me an email address I will send you a .PDF file of it for you to read. Should that happen I would really be interested in any feedback you wished to make … and you do have to be polite.


  62. Margaret says:

    in my view you focus too much on the money issue, as it is utopic that there would be no more trading or exchange of valuable goods.
    the word ‘salary’ goes back to the Romans who paid their soldiers with bars of salt, as that was something that could be quatified in a more or less exact way with a stable value.
    then gold and other metals took its place and then bank certificats for being easier to take along on long trips and exchange in the local banks upon arrival.
    with other forms of exchange, which will always happen there is a double necessity, of need and offer, if you have a bread you can miss, and would like some fish, you have to find someone with fish available who needs a bread…
    so unless some entire other structure is formed where people are sure they have the basics met for example with a minimal amount of work expected of all citizens in rrelation to their capacities, and as Phil suggested for example a minimum and maximum level of wealth , which seems fair at this stage in a world that has too much inequality, that would seem one option of going without the excesses of wealth and money greed we have nowadays.
    just one of the many options.
    but there is also the desire for power, which might be stronger still than the desire for possession.

    but well, I do not want to spend to much time and energy on this topic, other things to do.
    I think it is too simplistic to bring the discussion about genital mutilation down to whether mommy did not give enough love to the little boy first or the other way around.
    something went wrong indeed by some sick ideas at some point, probably of men wanting control in the case of female mutilation, and maybe some hygiene issues with the male mutilation which far away in the past seemed to make sense, but things since then grew out of control badly in a structural way which now needs to be adressed first imo.
    all kinds of false views have been superposed on the why it would be necessary, as ‘women will smell badly without’, or ‘men wll become impotent when having sex with a woman who has not been circumcised’, or ‘babies might die if they accidentally would touch a clitoris while being born’ to ‘god said this is how it should be’ etc.
    feelings are no longer involved, just phony convictions and traditions which should be dealt with to erase the practice.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Interesting to see your veiws on the matter, but you say:- “so unless some entire other structure is formed where people are sure they have the basics met for example with a minimal amount of work expected of all citizens in relation to their capacities, ”
      HOW DO YOU KNOW ALL THIS????? I can only assume that you remember the time when we were free of neurosis and that all the exchanges systems had not yet been formulated!!!!!!
      Let me remind you again … Rape, criminality, starvation, killing in the name of either religion or nationality, is a factor of having this means of a ‘monetary controlling’ means; AND those that do not have any. Little children don’t have these means of exchange.

      I re-emphasis, unless AND until we have experienced being in a system without any form of exchange …. where we each take only what we need, (otherwise we’re going to need to store it and protect it), AND then; do what we desire to do, (since to sit around contemplating our naval is very boring). ONLY then will we know. YET most contend they do. They don’t: … but are unable to admit it.

      However, in order to get ones ‘head around the concept’, requires a great deal of contremplating and more problematic for nurotics; to THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX. A box we set-up for ourselves many eons ago … way before the Roman Empire. The practice of going back beyond our known human history, is analogeous to going back into womb life and early child-hood.

      The phrase among the intellectuals is “A conceptual leap”. Few are able to do that …….. cos most of us are stuck in the box that we got place into: however inadvertently, by daddy and mommy, who in their turn got trapped into the same box … and so it goes on; ad infinitum.


  63. Margaret says:

    you make one big assumption about exchange only having come up with or after neurosis, with which I do not agree and which lacks all evidence.
    even animals use exchange in different forms.
    but well, as I said, I do not feel like digging into this more at this point, it is all speculation anyway.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: You state:- ” you make one big assumption ….” Of course: but isn’t that what your are doing also , AND don’t we all, for the most part, make assumptions. What matters to me is the amount of contemplation we do in making those assumptions.
      Art Janov spent a great deal of time in making his assumptions about Primal theory … whereby I see that most of the people that refute his theory spend little or no time to dismiss it.

      I spent some time trying to see where any other creature indulged the “exchange” game and came up with a blank. As I see it; any form of exchange is a controlling factor. It was my daddy’s attempt to control me that caused me to become neurotic.

      If any form of exchange is a means to control, as I contend, then why was control ever needed until we became neurotic? Surely controlling anything other than ourselves was never necessary. Meantime, I accept you do not wish to indulge the discussion further.


  64. Phil says:

    I’ve been reading a book by Peter Levine called “Unspoken Voice: How the Body Releases Trauma and Restores Goodness”. It is about the trauma focused therapy Levine developed, somatic experiencing. The therapy was largely developed from observations on how animals react to traumatic experiences. I’m only part way through the book and what’s interesting is that Levine accidentally helped a client to have a reliving, a “primal”, of a childhood traumatic experience in 1969, a tonsillectomy. It was an important event in the development of the therapy. It sounds like a familiar story.
    I’ve also researched information available on it on the internet. It took more time than primal to be developed as a therapy. It involves having the patient track body sensations, it’s a body type therapy. It seems like somatic experiencing taps in to the primal process by keeping attention on the body. I’m thinking it’s most suitable for abrupt type traumatic events like accidents or violent assault etc, a single episode traumatic event. But it’s also used to treat people with childhood developmental traumas. In contrast to primal, there is no well developed theory to go with it. Another difference is that somatic experiencing seems to be very widely available, quickly growing in popularity, and probably easier to learn for a practitioner. With somatic experiencing it is felt that the story of the trauma doesn’t necessarily need to come out. They worry a lot about “retraumatizing” the patient and so try to “titrate” the amount of traumatic material coming up into very small bits,
    It seems that there’s little or no focus on the patient’s traumatic story. The idea is for the body to relive the sensations of the trauma and then return to regulation. For that reason, I have to think that it doesn’t promote as complete a healing as is possible. Yet, from all accounts, it.s helpful to many people. I just find it all interesting, is why I have been looking into it.

  65. Margaret says:

    Phil, that is interesting!
    also as it shows how animals also process their ‘old stuff’ later on.
    it would be very interesting to merge the findings of these experiences and PT.

  66. sylvia says:

    Phil, I watched some of Peter Levine’s explanations on youtube. Looks like he was helping the vet with ptsd. The comments on his other talks varied about trauma healing–some saying his ways were helpful and some were put off of how he spoke, seeming distant.

    I saw another video of a lady Art spoke of in his blog who is writing books in the vein of what Summerhill was about. I believe he spoke of her in a conversation with ‘our Jack’ on the blog. She writes and talks about aware parenting. She appeared on the Get Conscious Now! show from Santa Barbara. She seemed like such a kind and gentle lady. The show started out with two very energetic upbeat hosts and by its end both had joined the soft slow rhythm of their guest, Aletha Solter. Some things she said were so natural and true–‘what we all need is someone to listen to us.’ “you are going to relive your childhood if you have kids whether you want to or not (‘because they will trigger you about your self at that age.’)” The you tube address to type in is Get Conscious Now! June 2014 Aletha Solter, in case the other address doesn’t work.

    If you all are interested the address is:

  67. Otto Codingian says:

    olympic opening ceremonies. many young people with endless HOPE still….

  68. Otto Codingian says:

    “imagine” sung by koreans at end of ceremony. touching.sad, because….crazy people out in the world keep it from happening. or some curse put onto mankind.

  69. Otto Codingian says:

    and then, the big white male cat, near death a few weeks ago, asserts his dominance over the smaller turkish angora black female cat. to our dismay, since who needs cat scratch vet bills. the way of the world. who is the boss? eat or be eaten. a lot of the time, there IS greed and hunger.

  70. sylvia says:

    Otto, I’m glad that your big cat feels well enough to be mean. Maybe he will settle down later when they get used to each other.

  71. Otto Codingian says:

    sylvia, maybe he will. the little black cat thought she had it made, out of the pound at 8 years old and eating good food. then the white cat came along….

  72. Otto Codingian says:

    Kids at lake park throwing rocks at ducks and geese as their immigrant mothers looked on. Some white lady stormed up to them and yelled at them and they went back to their moms with their heads down. I was going to yell at them first but lady beat me to it. So I followed them back to their moms; the kids were laughingly telling their moms, in English, about the yelling lady. I got close enough to the group to tell the moms that they shouldn’t let the kids do that, and “no es bueno”. Not much else I can do about it (old feeling plus reality of ME today). I can’t retire and be a mentor to poor kids. I don’t have that personality nor money to stop working, Nor energy to get political and demand mental health and parenting classes for both poor and rich alike. (cat just threw up). So the kids will grow up bullying other kids and on and on we go, or ending up in gangs and jail. No es bueno. Glass totally empty. Only people who know how to talk to people, per John L. but that ain’t me. I realize I should have talked to my own son as he was on the cusp of hassling his younger brother, years ago. (cat threw up 2 more times, told z not to feed him that brand of food again). Ok going to another funeral/ memorial. My cousin, 2 years younger than me, died of drinking and smoking. I was not real close to that family, went to their house for birthdays and holidays, but I was always the outsider. I wonder why they had to drink and smoke. I was probably jealous of them at the time, since the had a mom and a dad.

  73. Otto Codingian says:

    So I went to my cousin’s memorial. Not much crying there. I guess my cousin lived a full happy life, at least by the turnout of her friends and the photos of her life on the tv. My aunt and another cousin talked to me for a while but I could barely hear them. Another cousin arrived and a little later I found myself in their house of 55 years ago, in my mind. I wish I could have let myself cry about losing that time, it was Christmas or something, never much fun for me, but I do miss something about that scene, other uncles, aunts, and cousins have passed away. Maybe I was not so lonely when we got together. I was in military school at the time, very rough time for me.

  74. sylvia says:

    A sad time for you, Otto. You are reminding me of the family times with my Aunt and cousin who used to join us for holidays. She was a lot of fun. Miss her. Otto, you don’t always have to cry to have a feeling, a little tear can do sometimes along with the memory of those days.

  75. Larry says:

    Listening to the radio in the car this morning I just caught this song I never heard before, that plucks at my hurt right now. I’m running up against a wall that keeps me from people. I’m on the verge of crying through it or else living a life of isolation. It brings tears to my eyes now that I can see how this emotional wall held me back from being able to make friends in my teenage years and older, how it kept me from connection with people and confidence in myself and in life. I recall and understand now how and why I felt panicky inside back then over how I could not make friends and date and have a teenage and adult social life like my peers were, and how it became harder and harder to believe I’d be able to make my way in life.

  76. Margaret says:

    today was the first gathering for the practicum of Conversation skills.
    I was tense and apprehensive, as I read the summary of the schedule and it was challenging, group exercises and individual and in small groups.
    sometimes it was difficult, the room has a lousy acoustic, but I just accepted I could not hear what some participants were saying and let it go.
    I did ask a couple of times to the teacher to repeat some things, and I like her, her vivacity and intelligence.
    she is a PHd in Dutch language science, and now about to get her doctor’s degree in psychology as well, while she is working hard teaching already, and I admire her.
    for the separate group of three, I was lucky to get the two men sitting by my side, and we could remain in the same room while the others left for their own group space for the exercise.
    one person had to be the ‘interviewer’, the other the participant and the other had to observe the use of the first set of basic conversation skills, like for example using open questions instead of closed questions. and even for the open questions there are certain guidelines,.
    we all had to prepare a certain subject about ourselves to bring up , I chose the sailing vacation, and the interviewer had to try to ask in the right way and to encourage the interviewee to tell more.
    sounds simple, but of course we were also told not to go on talking and talking while interviewed as the interviewer was the one having to do the exercise of coming up with good questions.
    we changed roles so that all of us had every role, and gave each other feedback.
    the nice thing was we all talked about personal stuff, which made it easy to get sucked into the conversation, while at the same time it was clear we were also learning about our strong and weak points.
    in this first class we have to learn to listen thoroughly and to focus on the reference frame of the interviewee, so not too much guiding, or no guiding, see what they want to talk about, listen, follow, ask open questions staying with what he says.
    it felt good.
    afterwards we had to form little groups for the next meetings in two weeks where the exercise will be to do a clinical intake interview with a bit of a script for the interviewee, exercising a set of extra skills.
    the teacher said she left us some time to form groups, and that she would organize a group for the ones ending up ‘loose’.
    the chatter started and I became aware chances were huge I would remain out of it, as there was no way for me to follow the simultaneous chattering.
    but I gathered all my courage before it was too late and asked the guys still sitting next to me, with which I had been in the first little group, if they felt like staying together for the next exercise as well…
    and hurray, they agreed!!
    for me it mattered they seemed to get along well between them so I felt confident they might like it, and they have strong voices, easier for me to listen to than some of the very timid mumbling voices of some girls there…
    the teacher said afterwards I had done very well, getting hold of two of the three men present by taking that initiative, haha!
    so while this morning I was scared, and could not imagine what I rationally knew, that I would feel very good if I managed to cope, I now feel invigorated by having conquered this first and difficult hurdle.
    the teacher also told me when we remained alone a few minutes at the end, I did not need to worry about the webcam exercise as it was not that crucial anyway, and we have plenty of other exercises in group.
    those need to be recorded and reported , and the last one needs to be videotaped.
    it is strange of how it feels like growing, this process of doing something which is scary and a challenge at the same time.
    this is a course I really like.

    • Larry says:

      That is such a positive experience Margaret. All the credit to you for following through with what was scary at the beginning.

  77. Larry says:

    This artist’s work touches me. Here is another of his songs that I’m crying to. After almost 2 years of therapy, my wife and I left LA. I returned “home”, repaired by Primal, more able to be loved by my parents. Now my wife is gone, my parents are gone, I suppose I’m in the autumn of my life, and I feel parked here, waiting, waiting to get close to them, waiting to be loved by my parents, maybe waiting for my wife to come back, so that then I can get on with my life without having such a crippling empty hole inside..

    Always Waiting
    Michael Kiwanuka

    My soul is yearning and I’m longing too
    See my day timing, see me breaking through
    My time is coming soon
    So I’m waiting, I’ll be waiting
    For you, my friend

    My load ain’t burdened that I count me too
    My key, my body, all the things that I do
    My time is coming soon
    So I’m waiting, I’ll be waiting
    For you, my friend

    Ooh, will it stay? Ooh will it?
    Ooh, will it break for me?
    A toll has taken all the song that’s in me
    The road they’re making won’t take me where I should be
    My song is coming soon
    So I’m waiting, I’ll be waiting
    Always waiting for you, my friend

  78. Margaret says:

    yes, looking back today, I see even better how I entered that practicum feeling ‘small’, shy, scared, so different it almost felt like being a freak, disfunctional in a practical way, sight and hearing, which made me feel more like an outsider still than my old feelings already do.
    but gradually my confidence started growing, especially after the three person exercise I did feel very functional actually, as the exercise went well, but also as I felt we connected and at the end I made them laugh, which is always reassuring and relaxing.
    during the overview of the exercise with the whole group present, the entire group started laughing when I said our exercise had gone well, yeah, hm, it was even fun…
    I feel accepted when I can make people laugh, it takes me out of the ‘poor pitiful disabled blind role’.

  79. Margaret says:

    yeah, hope it keeps going well. I am happy I already established a good relation with the teacher, I feel we start to like each other.
    by the way, did you manage to give Janov’s book to your son’s friend?

  80. Phil says:

    I haven’t had the chance to give him the book, but still have the intention to do that.
    It’s a sad situation at his house. Having been in jail has only compounded his problem.
    Our understanding is he has to deal with a parole officer and it’s very difficult now to find a job with a felony conviction on his record. He can’t drive a car and public transportation is very poor around here. Driving is a necessity.

  81. Otto Codingian says:

    kids die by guns and every day. here and everywhere. maybe focus on mental health will rise now. right.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I will stick my neck out here.
      It all goes back to the 2nd amendment of the Constitution. I remember in my Ibiza days long before I knew anything of the contents of the US Constitution, that one American in particular was for ever raving about it (the Constitution).
      On arrival in the US to do Primal therapy, I was amazed at the constant repartee as the US being “the greatest and freest nation on earth”. I didn’t see that it was anything special. The police were considered to be always right, whatever they did. The military personnel were always brave souls putting their lives on the line for the love of their country, Politicians constantly wanting more money for a “Defense department”, that I saw as an “Offense department”. Lastly; more homeless people camping out on the streets than I’d seen in any other country.
      Then I got a copy of the constitution and read it. It didn’t strike me and anything special as a document, and certainly didn’t show me, any sense of wisdom. However, I initially didn’t see it in terms of the times that it was written.
      Now with all these shootings and the selection of George W Bush and worst of all the selection of Donald Trump by 540 electoral collage members. It occurred to me that what was taking place in the US was not democracy as I knew it. With Gerrymandering, voter suppression, costly TV ads and the constant asking for political donations … the whole s/election system in the US was a sham. It hindsight, I began to look at politics in other countries and began to feel that other county politicians were starting to use US political election motive in these other lands as well.
      The tragedy is that politics and politicians in particular are NOT self regulating … merely self posturing. Mmmmmmmm!!!! is there a viable alternative. I feel strongly there is … but then I would … wouldn’t I????


  82. Otto Codingian says:

    not sure why the olympics women skaters bring tears to my eyes. beauty? control of their bodies? mommy?

    • Phil says:

      I have been watching the Olympics a lot and find that it brings out a lot of feelings. Last night, for example, the German pair won the pair skating event. There was such a reaction from the German lady who had been trying forso many years for a gold medal, with this probably being the last chance. I guess I could easily identify with her feeling and even kind of share in it, bringing up whatever I have inside. In the scheme of things all these medals aren’t that meaningful but that’s the kind of thing athletes work towards. I find it very enjoyable to watch.

      • Larry says:

        I like watching some of the Olympics events because I enjoy the spectacle, but also because I enjoy feeling that others are watching the same thing at the same time that I am, and that I’m a participant in a big party. There are some Netflix series that I enjoy a lot, but I feel lonely watching them because it doesn’t feel like a group activity.

        • Phil says:

          It’s like the Superbowl, a big event that can be exciting to watch. I don’t watch football but I always try to tune in for the Superbowl. People will be talking about it the next day and I don’t want to be left out. It was a good and exciting game again this year. Still too many hard hits though, causing traumatic brain injury and future chronic traumatic encephalopathy for some of the players.

  83. Otto Codingian says:

    mommy does magic. music flows from her fingertips.

  84. Otto Codingian says:

    how do tiny bugs know how to run for their lives? the essence of life–to not get dead.

  85. Jack Waddington says:

    Maybe I am watching too much news, especially about this shooting in Florida.
    Some of it showing people suffering, which causes tears to run down my cheeks. I am not openly crying, but the tears just keep on rolling.
    But there is another feeling that comes up for me also, and it’s anger. Strangely, I’m not angry with the shooter, I feel so, so sorry for him … I’m furious with the politicians, who seem trapped in each of their own diagnosis, were it’s either a “mental illness” issue OR it’s a “Gun control” issue. For me, it’s neither.

    Where the medical profession and in particular the mental health profession, to understand Primal theory; this whole mess could be seen for what it is: Permit me to give my diagnosis of it all.
    The kid was acting-out his deep down feelings of unutterable despair. One only needs to look at him, chained and handcuffed in the court; and have some semblance of his background.
    If only he knew how to express his feeling, rather than acting them out
    The second issue is American’s glorification of it’s constitution that allows for “the bearing of arms”.
    Guns are devices for killing.
    The ultimate punishment is killing.
    Never do we look to see if “punishment” is an effective device OR, a device that resolves anything.

    I despair that we neurotic humans, are blinded by simple solution to overall complex problems; that WE created. Worse still, thinking that we can solve the problem while still staying with the ‘status quo’ To quote Shakespeare:- “The something rotten in the state of ……” humanity.

    I just want to scream. AHHHHHHHHHHHGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!


    • Phil says:

      The gun issue is very infuriating. The guns of 250 years ago, at the time the 2nd Amendment was written, were nothing like the guns around today. The 2nd Amendment should be removed but there’s little chance of that happening. In the meantime, nothing gets done about guns. We are living in the post truth era it seems. Looking around the world, countries with fewer guns have fewer gun deaths. Within the US that holds true too, with states that have more restrictions on guns.
      It seems so obvious; restrict guns and buy them back from people who have them. I saw a startling statistic yesterday; among citizens of the world, people in the US own 48% of guns. That’s not counting law enforcement or military weapons. Americans who love their guns so much are extremely selfish, and willing to endanger everyone else just so they can have their guns.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: I agree, there is little chance of eliminating the 2nd amendment, particularly while Americans are still in awe of the “Constitution” … which if looked at carefully is nothing more than a ‘super law’ set up over 200 years ago … having little relevance today’s situations. BUT, almost impossible to change. The UK does not have a written constitution and has (surprisingly) survived for almost 1,000 years.
        What I did say in my comment was that it was not a case of either ‘Guns’ or ‘mental health’. The problem is:- ‘acting-out of the expression of feelings’:- “Neurosis”. If we humans were to get beyond destroying (often unwittingly) our babies, then there’d be no need for state borders, policing, military’s, and most of all MONEY.
        When I was a kid there was a saying that stated “Spare the rod and spoil the child”. Even though that is now hardly ever stated, the legacy of it still remains. It’s called “discipline” … that’s something else, I contend, we do not need. Police officers, military personnel, are coerced by discipline. How else could they bully or kill others without any feelings?
        The psychology used in their subconscious mind, by the writers of the Constitution was protection of ones property:- BY KILLING WITH A GUN ANY TRANSGRESSOR. C R A Z Y .
        It’s what I contend is a “circular notion”:- being that the first factor goes through all the other sustaining factors, such that the last factor sustains the first.
        It all so crazy … and we’re all a part of the craziness … BUT reluctant to admit it.


        • Phil says:

          Jack, It’s true, as you say, that property rights are of the utmost importance in the American system, and the right to make money, and those rights tend to override other considerations. That’s the capitalist system, highly worshiped in the US, and around the world
          As to guns, it would be nice if in the US we could fix that particular problem to at least bring us in line with other countries in Europe, and Canada, Australia, and Japan, which all have far fewer guns, I believe, and far less gun violence. But, right now, I’m not seeing that it will happen.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: I fear you somewhat misunderstand my point.
            Even if there were NO guns: people that are so angry with another or others would find a means to kill them … as the ultimate punishment.

            To use a Clintonesque:- It’s the ‘act-out’ … Stupid


            • Phil says:

              Well, I do think that without guns there would be fewer murders, and certainly no mass shootings. Yesterday in a Facebook discussion I made the comment that “guns are involved with all shootings”. Someone got quite upset and started insulting me, which I thought was kind of funny, because I think my statement was quite accurate.
              Are you saying that Americans are angrier than people in other countries?

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Phil: “Are you saying that Americans are angrier than people in other countries?” No!, not at all. I am saying that the PROBLEM is:- Neurosis … and neurosis:- manifests itself mainly through acting- out.
                That’s Primal theory Yeah????

                The largest mass killing took place in Hiroshima on Aug 6 1945.
                Next in line is military conquests.
                Then bombings for whatever reason.
                Then gassing with toxic chemicals
                Other mass killings have been with vehicles
                In days gone by with swords.
                Knives and poisons also are in the mix.

                Humans killing humans is killing, by whatever means, AND 99% are act-outs.

                To repeat:- “It’s acting-out …. Stupid” … that is the problem.


  86. Margaret says:

    just saw a documentary of Louie Theroux with prostitutes, very …, can’t find the proper word for it.
    heartbreaking, young women, sometimes at the age of 15, starting to work for pimps, voluntarily handing them over all the money they earn, basically to feel someone values them, needs them, is nice to them, makes them feel wanted or even loved in their perception,
    he also interviewed one of the pimps with a very long conviction in jail, and even with that guy he came to an emotional moment in his interview, where it got a little primal, talking about what such a guy needs.
    primal therapy could probably help these women better than the therapy they get now, only a small percentage of them are able to change their lifestyles.
    most of them have grown up with abuse, it is so sad, they have nothing to expect once they get above a certain age and the pimp loses interest, no savings, nothing.
    if they last that long..
    still, even in the rehab programs, their old feelings seem to make them want to go back, to get back into the hopeless struggle for ‘love’, it really is heartbreaking.
    wish I could provide everyone with at least an access to PT…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I have the very same intent. I first tried with a do-it-yourself “Feeling Therapy” book; that went no-where.
      Then went onto to think long and loud, if there might be another route and came up with “abolish money and all forms of exchange and that includes barter” Only to be met with “That would create Rapists and Criminals”. without acknowledging that, that is what we have now.

      Ah well!!!!. Jack

      • Christopher S. Fite says:

        Would therapy be free? Years ago I knew a guy in Berkeley who was sort of a therapist, who had some familiarity with Primal Therapy, who told me that he didn’t think therapy should cost money. (Actually, though, he did charge a small amount for his therapy.)

        • jackwaddington says:

          Christopher: My contention is everything should be free. Whilst there is money or any for of exchange in live, by definition, we will never be ‘FREE’.


  87. Otto Codingian says:

    in usa, access to ANY KIND of therapy would be good. nah,not really. there are a lot of caring therapists out there, and a lot of idiots. and i am not a therapist, just an idiot. and or course the very rich and/or powerful players seem to control everyone else, for better or worse, but usually worse. watched wonder woman last nite, i felt emotional upon seeing her power to destroy evil. of course, me, with no power. can’t clean house, pay the usurious credit card assholes. can’t take more work on at my job,even though it is being shoved down my throat. can’t find the will to do therapy. took a walk around the lake with the dog, that is all i was able to do.

  88. Otto Codingian says:

    can’t go into my wife’s bedroom and put my arms around her because i feel she has tormented me for years with her neediness which void she fills with spending money to the point that even bankruptcy doesn’t appear to be an option. i am in the doldrums, not ready to give up yet, but what the fuck is this shit, as one primal patient once said.

  89. Otto Codingian says:

    at least the white cat and the black cat are a comfort. the white one, who would have been dead without my last amount of overtime money, now he will sit on my chest to be petted as my wife and i watch tv together. he also runs around the house, playing with catnip mouse or stalking the black turkish cat. black cat is also playing with the catnip mouse. unfortunately there is a feral cat in my garage who will probably get pregnant, and i have not strength to do anything about it. huge tree in the back yard could oome down and kill neighbors or us, once the next bout of santa ana winds come our way. whoopee. i have no relationship with my kids. not much pleasure going on here. as i said, i could possibly get some primal relief, at least if i went and used the spare back room every saturday to cry my guts out as i did last year, but no motivation, wife was using car every saturday afternoon to see her friend for many weeks and of course i have given up trying to get my share. i should be clamoring for my share, but i just do the minimum to survive, until jesus takes pity on me. ha. yes i am a victim and beaten down. crap.

  90. Otto Codingian says:

    just that small amount of “talk therapy” helped me to throw in a load of wash and take out the trash. i know that someone is listening. i have felt relief with that kind of therapy at the pi at times, even though i hated it, and maybe still do, when bb would sit there and say something only when my silence continued glaringl. i am not saying this correcxtly, not fleshing it out, it is just a bit of observation on my part. would the teen killer in florida been helped by someone listening to him as he struggled with high school (which is an atrocity in itself-3000 students?) ? would it have helped him if he had someone to listen daily, after his mom died? maybe he was too far gone even then. but no worry. no plans soon for subsidized mental therapy for neither young nor old in usa. but give the rich a little more money please. so will now or soon go, to walk the dog at franklin canyon and see turtles, and the beauty that my wife sees, but escapes me. i did see beauty the other day, when i drove her up to her teacher meeting in ventura. at the top of the hill at cemetery park, the sky was clear and i could see one of the channel islands, pretty close, out in the ocean. that, i thought, was at least somewhat beautiful.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: what a brilliant observation about that kid that did the shooting:- ” would the teen killer in Florida been helped by someone listening to him as he struggled with high school (which is an atrocity in itself-3000 students?”
      That is exactly my sentiment also. So long; never being listened to, and the only way he eventually decided to get his message out there was to become extreme.
      That not only goes for him, Nicolas Cruz but many others as well. It’s actually so easy to listen to others, but alas it took me more than 20 years of therapy before I was able to do it. “Que lastima”


  91. Otto Codingian says:

    why does just hearing the tiniest shred of dua lipa at the end of snl that wife is watching cause me to almost burst into a torrent of tears. dont allow myself to do that.wife said she gave up on pt, and i don’t know that she ever really understood it at all.

  92. sylvia says:

    Just keep talking, Otto, we are listening. In regards to that tree, seems the people you lease from should have some interest in taking it down if it is a hazard. Their insurance company would have something to say I imagine. They would want to get out of paying for damages if it is a known immediate danger and the owner did not attend to it. Hope you will be safe.

    I know what you mean about how hard it is to do something when you don’t have the will. Just a couple weeks ago I was needing to take a couple of 8 mo. old female cats to be spayed. One is wild and I thought why should I set the trap, I’ll never catch her, she’ll get out, I can’t ever succeed at anything was the old feeling that I’ve lived by in much of my past. But then, I thought, no I’m going to try anyways. And after I got her used to eating in the tied-open cage for a week, I set it and caught her and now she is recovered from the surgery and can have a good life. I don’t congratulate myself on succeeding because I haven’t gotten used to it and just forget about it—weird, I guess.

    I had got vouchers for the whole litter to be fixed. Sometimes a vet or animal shelter will loan or rent a trap to you. You would not want to take the trapped cat to the shelter, though (short life there, if you know what I mean.) Maybe you can ask the shelter if they give out vouchers. My vet told me about an org. in the county, a volunteer-run thrift shop who help feral cats. Can you imagine people giving lots of their time for helpless creatures–restores my faith in the sensitivity and goodness there is.
    Take care, Otto.

  93. Otto Codingian says:

    being there peter sellers sweet little movie. the dying scene. i wish i had been there as my grandma was dying. i did not do enough to be there and i regret it deeply.

  94. Otto Codingian says:

    thanks sylvia. you are very caring.

  95. Otto Codingian says:

    jack, i have heard about you sitting for people in therapy. you also are very caring. not to diminish that, but this is a very caring blog and therapy.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Yes it is a very caring therapy … sadly often not realized just how caring.
      I am so grateful for this blog, cos even though I’m miles away from you’s all I feel very connected.


  96. Margaret says:

    Otto, that sounds cozy, watching the TV together with the white cat on your chest, enjoying the attention.
    I also like the idea of him, and the other cat running around playing with the catnip mice. they always seem to have a favourite mouse…
    sounds like they have a warm home.

  97. Otto Codingian says:

    this girl speaks truth Florida student to NRA and Trump: ‘We call BS’ why it make me cry? strong girl

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I am reluctant to call it “The Truth” I prefer to call it a huge feeling and that’s why it’s impressive. So impressive, it is saying a great deal about how we conduct our social lives. These late teens are near enough to their childhood’s, yet matured enough to see the fallacies that we adults are hanging onto.

      Things are a changing. I hope it keeps on, and hopefully we’ll see many of the fallacies we’ve hung onto for far too long, start to evaporate.


  98. Otto Codingian says:

    margaret and phil, it is cold today and only one of us has a heater. but yes, cozy. small house that drives me nuts because it is small. but we are lucky to have it.

  99. Margaret says:

    I love the practicum I am following, conversation skills.
    it is inspiring and interesting and the teacher is enthusiastic.
    this time there were also some exercises in little groups, one ‘conversation leader’, one observer, one person with a story to tel, and then shifting roles.
    in the meantime practicing certain skills.
    my turn of telling a story I chose to talk about Primal Therapy and it was nice to answer relevant and interested questions, like ‘how do you get to those early feelings?’
    I talked about my intensive and how I got to my first feeling and even got a little emotional while relating it, and my both fellow students were kind of fascinated, which was nice, we all want more than just cognitive and behavioral therapy.
    it is a great class, very intense, interesting and at the same time getting to know people in a very direct way, when they chose to talk about relevant stuff about themselves, which so far has been the case.
    normally the teacher is not present during this exercise, but in my case she walked in and said she was fed up with sitting by herself, so when I had to ‘lead’ the conversation with proper questions etc. I knew she was there, brrr!
    but hey, apart from one very useful observation her feedback was I had done very well, which from her I really take as a big thing, which feels very good.
    I also again got very good vibes from my fellow students, it was nice to connect in this way, even while I feel still a bit wired up and tired at the same time..
    love this class so far, very inspiring, it feels good to listen and focus on the person talking and what they say, and to encourage them to tell more.
    again I had felt scared, hardly up to it today, again it was very rewarding and satisfying.

  100. Leslie says:

    Sounds great Margaret! So informative for you and the others on so many levels.
    Nice when being genuine & experienced counts.

  101. Margaret says:

    it makes it all the nicer that most students there are already working, as therapists of some sort or in a medical field or elsewhere, sometimes not at all in that area.
    so they are really interested to choose to do all this studying besides their jobs, or after having taken some time off in some cases.
    also the ones working as therapists have experience with complicated problems and are interested in deeper level treatments and experiences.
    we got some papers to read from a follow up course, psychological conversation, actually going from long intake interviews with all kind of anamneses , psychological, social, medical, to therapeutic sessions.
    I already noticed how the first kind of interview focuses on the DSM classifications, which of course is not un-useful as it also matters to distinguish for example if someone has let’s say schizophrenic symptoms which need to be looked at by another trained specialist.
    but of course the questions of a client for primal therapy would be different in many ways I guess.
    my own talk with Vivian was actually kind of casual, but of course the long application had already given a lot of information.
    in any case it feels great to finally have a class in which I really am getting in touch with other students in a less superficial way and to feel it works out very well and my self confidence and self esteem gets a real boost, which I could use at this point.
    yesterday morning I cried two times, out of the blue the first time, thinking about some piano music my mom always plays and how it would affect me hearing it on her funeral. the feeling was kind of feeling very vulnerable and hardly up to facing the world.
    today I am visiting her.

  102. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi everyone: I have been watching the news, over the shooting at Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland Florida. Just less than an hour ago, I saw the response of the top executive of the NRA. I couldn’t believe just what a crazy spin he was putting on it all, and never once talking about the surviving students and/or their responses.

    To me it’s the perfect example of tweaking at the edges of a problem when the problem should be obvious:- ‘ban ALL weapons’. period end. Twiddling with possible solution resolves nothing IMO. 95% is total spin.
    The next suggestion is to keep guns out of reach of all crazy people. Any one that owns or has possession of a gun is a potential killer/murderer, and that includes all military personnel; thus any one in possession of a weapon is crazy. BUT not all crazy people of which I am one, goes out killing people.

    I also read this morning from the International Primal Association a quote from Art Janov’s “Primal Revolution” chapter 23. The first line reads:- “Humanity is near the time when we shall either have a real world or no world. I believe that there is a chance for that real world; and that belief is not Utopian.” Wow!!! how so right on, and from so long ago.

    I just watched those students questions to the two Florida Senators and a Congressman. The students were so impressive. BUT NONE OF THEM GOT TO THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM:- Ban all guns … period end. To my mind. there is NOTHING precious about the 2nd amendment. It just was to make legal the “cowboy & Indian’ syndrome, upon which the origins of the country. You don’t need a PhD in psychology to figure that one out.

    My point:- Tweaking an already crazy system, by which we humans live by, resolves nothing. Like with Primal therapy/theory it needs to be a very radical revolutionary change. It hurts me to see all the mind bending going on out there. I would love to have no part of it … alas I seem to affect nothing towards that goal.


  103. sylvia says:

    Hi jack. I saw yesterday some of the survivors of the school shooting and parents of children killed in other school shootings over the years on tv. They were gathered to talk to the pres and V.P. It was heart-wrenching to hear their losses. Even though they did not mention banning guns, they probably would have liked to but knew there would be a knee-jerk reaction from the gun-lovers who feel naked without their protection. (Maybe an early feeling evoked, eh?) But the asking for some legislation to get rid of assault rifles is a good step, not likely to cause a conniption anyways.

  104. Jack Waddington says:

    Sylvia: It’s always heart wrenching for me listening to these stories. It always gets to me in a very profound way. That’s the prices I have to pay for being in the feeling zone, BUT there is no-way I will or want to go back to the less, or no feeling zone. Granted I am more in my head than I would like It’s a life long process.

    What goes through me also is what caused that kid to do what he did. I could well be wrong, but one simple thing I feel would have prevented it all in the first place. If only he had been really listened to, by either a good friend or even a teacher or even those adopted parents. This is what I mean when I adamantly say:- “THE PROBLEM IS THINKING THAT PUNISHMENT WILL BRING ABOUT CHANGE”. What I say is:- Punishment was the cause; and will never bring about REAL change, other than making matters worse. Even Rubio, the other Senator and congressman were not able to REALLY listen … they already had an answer before the questioner had finished asking the question. I know this well … I used to be exactly like that in the past. Hopefully I’m not THAT bad anymore.

    I also agree that to suggest ‘banning all guns’ would bring about a knee-jerk re-action, but knee-jerk reactions are happening all the time. I don’t know of any other country that has a law PERMITTING the use of arms/gun except the US. It’s not the feeling that is the problem … it’s the manner in which it is expressed. I even get knee-jerk reactions on this blog. After all of my therapy it’s no big deal.


    • Phil says:

      Jack, You’re right and I agree. The answer isn’t going to be arming teachers, that’s ridiculous. It won’t be banning certain types of guns, background checks, or more money for mental health. The obvious solution is to ban all guns, except for those for law enforcement people. There is no justifiable reason that anyone needs to have a gun in the face of all these shootings. Another idea I like is to require people to register all guns and to get insurance coverage for them.. If they don’t do that, their guns would be confiscated. The insurance coverage would be expensive, I’m sure, as it would have to pay for all the injuries, death, and damage done by guns. Most people would decide it’s not worth it to have a gun.
      The reason guns can’t be banned is simply because of all the people who like guns and can point to the second Amendment. The obvious solution for people who think this is an important problem is to stop voting for republicans, because none of them want to do anything about guns. Voters have the power to force changes.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: Some parts of your proposal are worthy of being put out there, but I still hold to the notion that it’s all just “tweaking” to resolve a very serious problem. Not only about guns, but about the way we humans live and think; to make good on problems we assume. I disagree that police should have guns. The British, who invented policing, didn’t have guns when I was living there. The police are a para military institution that, like the military bases it all on “obey and obey, and don’t question it”, otherwise you’ll not get paid.

        If America was able to seriously look back on the whole of it’s history, that stated when some colonials crossed the pond, and grabbed the land from the natives already here. From there, went off to Africa and grabbed some people from their homes, the only place they knew and bound them into slavery such that these colonials could now play at being aristocrats, though decrying the very thing they had run from. Thereafter setting up the craziest system of government and enshrining it in a doubious super-law, without any notion of their own subconscious reasonings for that super-law. C R A Z Y ! ! ! ‘Cowboy and Indian’ syndrome.
        Not that any other country was any better or worse. The British played a similar game. Trying to rule the planet and calling it “Britania rules the waves”. It doesn’t, nor did it. The moon rules the waves … or so I was told in ‘high school’.

        I cry just waching it all, and yet; compulsively keep watching it. It all comes down for me still wanting to get my daddy to love me … MY WAY … not his. It shows in almost everything I do and say. AAAARRRGGG.


        • Phil says:

          You’re lucky to be far away from all the guns and violence going on here. I don’t think there’s some easy fix to all the problems, but banning guns would help us here, just for that one problem. There would still be many guns around for years to come, so the police would still need their guns.. After awhile maybe they could be disarmed too.
          What is so crazy to me is how difficult it is for us to agree to take reasonable action on guns. Reasonable, to me, means getting rid of them.
          Nobody actually needs their guns; they just like them for one reason or another.
          People don’t have to go hunting,or go target shooting, those are just hobbies. Guns don’t make people safer, that should be obvious, but I guess it isn’t.
          Because they like their guns, thousands of people have to die every year from shootings.
          We have ineffectual and crazy government.


          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: Yes, I am lucky to be away from it all. I agree with several thins you mentiuoned, but fixing anything is always difficult, whether it be a long or short term problem. One of the message becoming very prominent is that we need to start listening to one another. I contend the ‘Primal Notion’ is slowly beginning to seep into many people.
            It has been my contention for some time that we first support the notion, and then (hopefully) a critical mass will see the notion and start to equally promote it, then the avalanche effect takes place. There is historical precedence for it. My best example has always been the Copernicus, Galileo example. I do hope and contend, in these days of easy access to ‘social media’, word gets around faster.
            Always with radical and revolutionary ideas, there is the initial rebuttal … but over time that initial shock wears off. Some other examples I am aware of from my English history lessons was how it all developed in the ‘nick of the woods I was bought up under’. It was a gradual process starting with “Magna Carta”, the next was the civil revolution started by Oliver Cromwell and the beheading of Charles 1st, and on and on until there was eventually universal voter franchise.

            I wonder at your thoughts about the quote I made of Art’s book “Primal Revolution”?

            The question tonight with Trump and the Australian Prime Minister, joint press conference, where in Australia they have banned most guns … and the weak answer by first the Prime Minister, then reiterated by Trump; that they were two different countries. How evasive can they get???? However hopefully, this last shooting incident is have a reverberating effect. If it keeps up SOME things might change.


            • Phil says:

              It looks like Trump mostly acts purely as a politician and not at all as a leader. His voters like their guns and the 2nd Amendment. Trump wants to be reelected and stay in power and he thinks the best way to do that is to please his core supporters.
              I saw a ranking of all American presidents made by a group of historians and experts from different parties. Overall, Trump is right now ranked as the worst president ever, and that’s something I agree with.
              I think it’s very true that if humanity does not become “real” or much more “real” soon, we no longer will have a world to live in, or we won’t be part of it. I think that the destruction of the world is already well underway. Species are becoming extinct, the living environment is being destroyed and overdeveloped, the oceans and atmosphere are becoming more and more polluted, and climate change is one of the results of all this. One important underlying cause is overpopulation. We are like rats in a cage with a limited continuous supply of food and water. The ultimate likely result is total destruction of the environment and our own extinction as a species. Efforts are being made to prevent all of that but it’s not enough, and almost impossible because of all the craziness. We can’t get along with each other, or make important decisions for future generations.
              So, as you see, I’m not all that optimistic.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Phil: I liked your comment; the only disagreement if have is that it’d be some cold comfort to me if Trump did act like a politician. It befuddles me why anyone would want to vote for him.

                The question I ask myself is :- who does he remind me of???? I might be tempted to say Hitler or Stalin; but both these guys had some modicum of a brain and leadership … horrific as they were, I remember during the war (yep, I’m that old) being frightened out of my wits during the blitz (bombings). It’s little wonder I’m totally empathetic to those kids I see in Syria being bombed out of home and no food … just looking at their desperate faces … bringing tears to my eyes. 😦 😦 .



  105. Margaret says:

    Phil, well said, M

  106. Otto Codingian says:

    tired of talking to myself
    some of us are lovers, me not
    trump for all his hornyness, i think maybe he is not a lover, but a bag of money
    anyway, i wish i felt like this song, towards my wife
    “you’re dirty sweet and you’re my girl”
    not her fault, the lover in me got stifled beyond repair somwhere
    what a horror not to be a lover. not like kids with million mile an hour loud holes in them
    but maybe terror killed the lover in me
    and killed that stupid orphan kid-with-a-gun too
    T.Rex – Get it on + lyrics

    • sylvia says:

      Yes, the horror of ‘kids with million mile an hour loud holes in them.’ A dark poetic observation of these terrible times.

  107. Otto Codingian says:

    well that feeling is so big i cant approach it in my bedroom
    a tears-scream-and-throw-a-tantrum feeling
    i could never get that out in a group
    i was going to get a session but i am too paralyzed at the moment to even make the appointment
    before it is too late

  108. Margaret says:

    I am going to a party at the home of a lady from my former singing class and choir.
    I haven’t seen them for several years and it has been a long time since I have been to a party.
    there will be music and singing together, it probably will be fun but still I feel tense and apprehensive, like always before a social gathering where I don’t have any close friends.
    they are nice though, and I should remember my newfound ‘selfconfidence’ as a student, and try to enjoy the action as much as possible.
    i did want to catch up with them anyway for a long time, so despite feeling nervous I really did want to go, want to talk with my former singing teacher to see if maybe next schoolyear I can do the singing class without the choir or something, too much on my plate otherwise.
    can also talk about the sailing and of course ask people about themselves…
    and drink some wine as the theme is France…
    I don’t like cheese though!

  109. Margaret says:

    hi Larry,
    hmm, that is a nice idea…
    the party was more crowded than i expected, pretty noisy at first with everyone chatting, but the welcome was warm, several people coming up to me to say hi and how are you, so good to see you again…
    my singing teacher gave me a warm hug, which I returned, as she lost her husband last summer, a very inspiring man which I adored.
    the singing was actually a three part recital with different singers, French theme, and two breaks, so a full evening program.
    there was food and drinks, and in the breaks I could catch up with several people to some extent, but it was tiresome as well with all the noise of everyone talking.
    the setting was the huge house of one of the lady singers, a girl I like a lot, but well, it was a huge old mansion, little castle like villa, and the temperature outdoors was way below zero.
    inside it was cold and drafty, extremely high ceilings, big room, though it simply was the entrance hall way, haha, which for a while I regarded as a huge living room, and I mean huge.
    luckily I was sitting beside the mother of that girl, woman, who also was feeling very cold after a while, and when I had put on my woolen cap already, and mentioned to her a blanket would be welcome, she said that was a great idea and she went to fetch her old fur coat upstairs which we could put over our knees, which helped a bit.
    but well, the evening lasted from 7 pm until almost midnight and I was very glad to come home and warm up a cherry pit pillow and dive under the covers with thick socks on!!
    I felt somewhat down all day today, maybe the confrontation with my limitations in that kind of setting, I am not sure, some kind of sadness and hopeless feeling.
    slowly dissipating now, after doing nothing much more than listening to an audio book, taking care of cats and eating.
    studying seemed very uninviting today, postponed it to tomorrow.
    still I do plan to go back to singing class if possible in September, as I miss the singing.
    it strikes me to think how different and lovely it would be to go to places and events with my own partner by my side, it is always being basically alone which makes me sad I guess.

  110. Margaret says:

    a weird problem that increases rapidly with the plumbing in my apartment.
    luckily the janitor and his helper, from Russia and Uzbekistan, responded right away to my call for help.
    it started with the water taps at my bathtub making weird sounds from time to time, whistling, vibrating in all pitches varying with turning the taps.
    sometimes though the vibrating became loud and resonating, sounding more like banging, a bit scary.
    my brother thought it might be just a rubber ring in one of the tabs, but by now it got worse, and Pjotr looked at the taps but could not find anything.
    Gregor, his boss, came by as well, and thinks it might be a problem with a water tube in the wall having come loose, and he promised they will come by tomorrow.
    now the sound also tends to start if I use a tap in my sink, and even when I flush the toilet an awful sound starts loudly humming in the kitchen, near the hot water boiler, not sure if it is the boiler or the tubery or what else….
    when the reservoir of the toilet is full the dreadful loud sound stops.
    just sent Gregor a message about this next stage, he promised to be there tomorrow…
    have to go to Study center around 4 pm, hope they will be finished by then, as I worry about the cats escaping if they are still at my place and I am gone….
    it is a weird but by now distressing problem, hope they find the source soon, and that everything keeps working as it is below freezing here now day and night, no time to lose the heating system!
    I wonder if the problem comes from another part of the house, glad I have Gregor, he seems pretty smart, smarter than Pjotr, I am very grateful they imediately responded while they are very busy at the large school nextdoor as well.
    will have to stop fretting about this in order to rest before our first group assignment of tomorrow, me and two other students taking turns in trying an intake talk with a would be patient for therapy, we have our scripts to play the patient, and have to make reports of our own intake talk as the would be therapist.
    not an exercise on content so much as on conversations skills and techniques.
    feel tired of more stress than pleasant lately, in combination with the freezing winter temperatures and strong icy wind, sigh…
    and to feel mostly on my own with all of this, luckily able to ask for help with the janitor guys, and to ventilate here.
    texted my brother as well, hope to have him on the phone when he gets home from work, curious to hear what he thinks, hope he does not worry too much.

    • sylvia says:

      Good luck, Margaret with getting your plumbing noises fixed. Thought I would look up on you tube for noises in pipes, as a curiosity. You might have your brother look up that too. One case it was the fill valve tube in the toilet tank causing the noise and another case was a bad washer in the turn off/on water valve coming out of the wall to the toilet . I’m always having to look up how to do things on youtube when there is something in plumbing to attend to.
      I thought your singing party at the villa was an interesting read. How nice your friend’s mother thought of her old fur coat to take off the chill for you two.

      • sylvia says:

        Sorry, it was the turn off water valve to the sink, not the toilet. What horrible rumbling noises little things can make when they aren’t fixed.

  111. Larry says:

    Being and feeling alone makes any life stresses all the more difficult to deal with. I had been wearing a catheter since Jan. 3. Because of the discomfort and burden of living with it, I shrank from many of the social activities that help get me through the winter. I watched more TV than I like to. I saw and heard less and less from friends. I felt less and less worthy of them. I felt more and more alienated and miserable. My life shrank to a lonely, dreary, lifeless existence, making the coldest, darkest time of the year even bleaker. The emptiness of my life sometimes frightened me.

    Last Thursday morning I went in to hospital to have minor surgery that hopefully would negate the need for a catheter. I stayed in hospital overnight, surrounded by 6 other bedridden patients in a large recovery area, where we were trapped, stripped of our street clothes and most of our control over our lives. I slept poorly. On Friday morning I felt alone, anxious, desolate, and very despondent about my life. On Friday morning the catheter was removed. Seeming to be able to pee consistently, on Friday afternoon I discharged myself, glad to be out of the hospital. But I felt very disheartened that I had no one at home to return to.

    I am so relieved to be free of the catheter. I’m gaining confidence that yes, I really can count on being able to pee now, and can hopefully stitch back together a normal life. I began resuming contact with friends and look forward to spending time with them. Some confidence is returning that I might still be able to enjoy a meaningful life.

    Last night I was watching an episode of Midwives on Netflix. A young midwife helps a mother to successfully deliver a baby. Everyone in the family is happy. Hours later the baby is found dead. While a postmortem is being conducted, the young midwife begins to blame herself for the baby’s death, to the extent that she runs away from her duties. The postmortem uncovers that the baby died of asphyxiation because its lungs hadn’t fully formed. The young midwife had all too easily blamed herself for a calamity that she could in no way prevent. It hit me how easily we can blame ourselves for something gone wrong when in truth we are not to blame.

    And with that I was on the floor crying. All of my selves, my adult self, my teenage self, my toddler self, all fused together and saw all of my truth pervading all of my life. We saw that I had gone through life feeling bad about myself all the way through, feeling not good enough, blaming myself for why I was not loved, when in fact it had never been my fault. All of me saw that my parents weren’t bad…I wasn’t bad. My parents were just damaged and incapable of loving me in a way that I needed, and so there is just an emptiness for me that was impossible for me to see and live with, an awful, deadening burden of emptiness.

    There is no returning home for me to try to get that love. After a lifetime of running from the truth, last night it was incredible to see it, to feel it, to cry into it and know the sad sad truth, sad for my parents who I feel love for, and sad for me. I never imagined I could really get to this point, of seeing and feeling my truth so clearly. The clarity and strength that comes from seeing the truth is a miracle that decades of therapy was worth working towards. I’ll need that clarity and strength to help me try to overcome the poor foundation I’m stuck with and try to make the remainder of my life worthwhile

  112. sylvia says:

    Wow, Larry, very deep feelings that you are able to integrate. You do seem to have a strength from it , it sounds like. What is interesting too, that there is no hate in your feelings.

    My mom often tried to make us feel guilty about how her life was; of course it was misplaced. But I carry some of that automatic guilt when it isn’t justified but is just a reflex for me. Takes time, I guess to work through.

    Glad you are feeling better.

    • Larry says:

      That is an interesting observation you made about hate Sylvia. As a teenager and adult I have at times felt anger and disdain toward my parents. As an adult I also recognized that they were knocked down by life just as I was, but i have a better opportunity than they to overcome my setbacks, so I give my parents some slack for their flaws and focus most of my energy toward trying to improve myself rather than toward hating them.

      Besides, I feel mostly sadness and hurt regarding them, not hate. I feel that as infants and young children we have an enormous capacity and need to love our parents and be loved by them. When I eventually can go deep enough, at the core of my primals is the need to love and be loved, throughout my life. When those feelings surface they are accompanied by deep profound pain and sadness over how badly things have turned out between my parents and I. There is profound healing from accepting and feeling the truth. Along the way to that truth I do experience episodes of anger that are probably a necessary part of the path of self-discovery, but those seem to be brief for me.

      I suspect that staying parked in that anger would eventually become a blind alley, a diversion from the full depths of the pain of our truth. I really do see my parents as gentle souls beaten down by life and inadequate to the task of nurturing and raising me. So far, in my primals when I am feeling need that never had been met, when I’m feeling most hopeless, fragile and helpless, my most difficult, intense anger that erupts has been directed toward life, toward some entity or society with the power and wisdom to intervene but never does to prevent lives (mine, my parents) from being ruined forever.

      I wonder whether when I am eventually psychically strong enough to have the primal, an intense baby rage that I suspect is deep within me, might be directed toward my parents for their failure to meet my needs, a failure too threatening to a baby’s existence for a baby to acknowledge by allowing the feeling of anger.

      I feel that writing this reply has been useful for me toward eventual further discovery of myself. Thank you Sylvia for your response that prompted me.

      • sylvia says:

        You’re welcome, Larry. I find that I hate when feeling oppressed, or disregarded. It seems to be an adult feeling. My baby feelings have mostly been feeling helpless and needy. I had them before engaging in this therapy process and afterwards. My gating system has been weak in these adult years. The feeling of the baby was, ‘please hold me, touch me, I am suffering.’ I could not control it or stop the feeling. This somehow resolved something. I just felt stronger afterwards. It is a vulnerable feeling for sure. I think it made it easier in the present to ask for things or help. I used to hem and haw about asking for someone’s help. My brother used to say to me. ‘ why don’t you just ask me what you want directly instead of beating around the bush?’ Now I have no problem asking for help or appearing vulnerable, so it makes communication easier.

  113. Otto Codingian says:

    we went to see my son and his kids last night. they all seemed very happy; the kids were very active and demanded physical contact, affection, which is a bit hard for me. my son seemed very happy but he had obviously had a glass of wine or more. we took christmas presents to the kids, because my son had cancelled christmas dinner at his house with me, at the last minute. kids seemed to like the presents. my poor son talks about how overwhelmed he is with stuff that needs to be done daily with kids. anyway, my son facetimed my wife today, and was berating his little boy as to why he had not thanked us for the gifts, and my grandson ran off crying as my wife watched on her phone. not sure what i can do, seeing as how i have such a tiny relationship with my son. plumber here again. bye

  114. Margaret says:

    thanks for that information, I tend to agree the problem may well lay in one particular tap and valve.
    I had bad and scary dreams all night, about the house being put upside down with a lot of chaos, but this morning I feel all the fear and unpleasantness of last night, even while laying awake between dreams I felt so anxious, was something I needed to face, as now this morning I feel more together and ready to face the day.
    still tense of course, but not to such a paralizing degree.
    Larry, that sounds like a big breakthrough.

  115. Phil says:

    Last week I had a friend request on Facebook from someone I couldn’t identify. I accepted and it turned out it was from a cousin I haven’t seen in over 40 years. This has brought up a lot of thoughts and feelings. I feel a lot of regret and sadness because I feel it’s my fault for not having stayed connected with her and her family. Her father was my favorite uncle, my father’s brother. I remember him as someone who could see me, and their house was very lively and full of love, as compared to ours. My father always livened up noticeably when we went there.
    It seems like this cousin is really looking for my sister, who is her age. She had two younger brothers, however, who were my age. I remember them well but we didn’t stay connected. As a young adult, when I was going through a very hard time, I dropped almost all my social connections, including family and friends. At the time it seemed like I needed to do that. There might have been some benefit, as a way to function and keep my sanity, but at a kind of steep price.

    • Phil says:

      Finally I had some big feelings come out related to this cousin who found me on facebook. It’s about how I let relationships go and didn’t follow up in anyway to continue them. I feel very guilty about it, in this case, like it’s my fault. And it is. At one point many years ago there was a cousin in this family my same age who was getting married, but I decided not to go to the wedding. We hadn’t been relating already for many years and I was in my 20’s. It would have been the perfect opportunity to rekindle these relationships, and it would have been to my benefit to do so.
      This happened a long time ago, and I left it too my father to deal with. This was the decision that left me totally disconnected from my father’s side of the family after he passed away.
      My father didn’t insist on going and couldn’t get there himself anyway without my participation. I didn’t want to go basically because it felt like it would be too difficult a social situation for me,
      What I needed from my father, all along, was help on not making these kinds of decisions.
      Maybe this is more the kind of thing mothers do. There are a very large number of things I avoided doing because of anxiety, and that has effected my whole life. It’s a whole lot of painful stuff.


  116. Jack Waddington says:

    I too noticed that were on an old page and wondered why. No problem for me as I look at the emails delivered via word press.

    Just watched the bi partisan gun debate at the White House on TV. NO-ONE saw the REAL problem. Rescind the second amendment then make it totally illegal for anyone to own a gun or any kind of weapon A N D that should include the police and the military.

    SADLY, oh ever so sadly!!!! it will never happen.


  117. Vicki says:

    A song I first heard many months ago, the chorus came back to me last night, and resonated with me in weariness in the middle of the night: “Wander On, Weary Soul ” by Patti Casey


    Wander on, you weary soul
    Walk through the heart of darkness, though you know not where to go
    Wander on, you shall be free
    As neither does the river know the way down to the sea

    Snow falls all around
    Cold winds swirl and moan
    Only cliff and crag and the failing light of day
    Call forth as companions
    And only peril leads the way

    Though cruel, onward go
    No rest from the endless toil
    And you lay a crooked path stone by stone
    You lay it all up a mountain
    You lay it all alone

    This song is not on Youtube, but you can click on it at the top of her Album page, to hear it:

    • Larry says:

      That gives me an idea of how you are feeling Vicki.

    • sylvia says:

      I just heard it too, Vicki. Nice banjo song and full of country soul. Maybe a country poetic way of saying, ‘just keep truckin.’ A feeling of lost and sadness in it.
      Thanks for the good song.

    • Vicki says:

      Thanks, Larry and Sylvia. Songs have such personal meanings for different listeners, and when I first heard it, I just thought it felt nice and catchy. But I was in a profound weary feeling when the tune came to me again. I didn’t know the words, except the partial line “the river know the way down to the sea”. So I felt the weariness simply in hearing the song, and it led me to crying & howling in the night. It was only hours later when I hunted up the words online, that I was surprised at just how well they fit my feeling.

  118. Margaret says:

    today finally the insurance expert came by to check on the damage from the water leaking from above.
    after some back and forth I got an agreement for all my claims, so will get some immediate money for painting and repairs and a new mattress if I find that necessary.
    the expert went to my upstairs neighbor but did not manage to make him sign, which for me does not matter so much, it would make an even better deal but I prefer to remain on friendly terms with him.
    so when after the expert left i heard my neighbor in the stairway,I addressed him and reassured him i would not bother him personally with claims. I also told him I had heard from the expert that apart from sending some demanding letters to him, the company would probably not go further as the sum of money involved is not large enough to go through all the hassles , probably.
    he was so relieved and grateful I told him, and I am glad I did..
    and I am happy with the money to have my bedroom painted as well, ha!
    it is a very busy week, full of challenges but I am doing OK so far, and all of it without any codeine painkiller, they are almost never on my mind anymore, which is great.
    have been working several hours on my transcript of the ‘intake conversation’, which is interesting as to evaluate oneself bit by bit, hear the good stuff and recognize what should be improved.
    great course.

    it is snowing here now, still with icy winds blowing, tomorrow weather should change to clouds and rain…
    tomorrow another visit to mom, with bro this time..
    mmm, hear next week temperatures will rise to a more pleasant level, well, in comparison, hurray…

  119. Margaret says:

    I am watching a documentary about the natture in Karelia, in the northwest of Russia.
    there is poaching of adult bears, and one biologist gathers young orphan bears, from the wild and from zoos, or from full shelters, and takes them all to some remote islands, where he tries to give them the opportunity to grow up without regarding humans as substitute mothers. he and his friends put some food n the islands in the beginning, and the little bears will have to follow their instincts to learn to fetch food for themselves.
    i found it so moving when finally the cages with the little bears were opened.
    the sound they had been making sounded so much like coarse baby wailing…
    and then finally the gates open, and the little ones get out of their cages, cautious but curious, and it is so very moving to see those precious beautiful animals regaining their birthright of freedom and dignity, it brings tears to my eyes.
    we humans are in general such a ‘lowlife’ species in the way we treat other creatures, , or at least we have lost the respect they deserve.
    I also like this big kind of marter, a furry voracious creature about twice as heavy as a fox, mainly living from scavenging but also able to kill for food.
    they are fierce, often chase a bear away from their food just by attacking, bluffing mostly with large teeth and loud groans.
    I remember how I also saw a video of a house cat, a small one, chasing a bear away like that.
    it kind of feels like the bear has respect for so much guts, as with one blow they could launch a cat far away. with the matter he might get bitten but they take turns in backing off.
    animals avoid real violence if possible, we humans seem all too often to look it up.
    oh, the biologist visits the island, and unexpectedly the little bears still all come running up to him and follow him like little chickens. two are missing at first, but now the language is Russian so I cannot follow.
    it seems to be difficult to let the young bears get used to the wild life and to fetch food for themselves, but they learn fast.
    there is a remote small village there where a man started a new kind of living, out from his religious conviction, with a lot of respect for the beauty and miracles of nature, and without all the modern gadgets.
    somehow there is some hope in this, in some people looking for truth and sincerity and respect for nature, regardless of how sick large parts of humanity are already.
    sorry, guys, and gals, am reading one of those intriguing post apocalyptic novels, in which technological society has collapsed due to some selfcaused disasters.
    that scenario is not unthinkable at all imo, splitting up humans in smaller clans without good communication or a common view, focused on surviving and gradually forgetting a lot of knowledge..
    sometimes I wish I could jump to the far future and take a look…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: The sound of those little bears make, as the the cages are opened brings tears to my eyes also. In a funny sort of way I totally identify with them. I feel we humans are also caught in a cage of our own making, that need not be. We’re so into “controlling” it all.
      You say later they learn how to do things like look for food and protect themselves. I feel the very same applies the us, the human animal. I feel there is so much emphasis on teaching, when the process should be allowing us to learn. Learning is simple, natural and instinctive; teaching is complicated and convoluted. That process, as I see it, is they essence of Primal therapy, ‘let the patient come to her/his own insights, and instinctively know how to progress from there with our own lives’.

      Your last line:- “sometimes I wish I could jump to the far future and take a look…”. I sometimes wonder if there is going to be a future for any life … let alone human life. GGGEEEZZZUUUS we are brilliant at fucking it all up …,AND THAT SO … S A D .


  120. Margaret says:

    we did not visit our mom yesterday, the roads were still too icy for my brother to make the trip.
    last night I had an interesting dream, which was situated in some primal kind of setting, amidst people doing the therapy.
    there was an exercise in which we were encoraged to move forward in a karate position, giving a punch with every step. I enjoyed trying to do that with as much conviction as possible, and suddenly to my own surprise a huge pool of anger seemed to open up. it was an unexpected discovery to come in touch with that kind of rage inside me.
    then the setting shifted and we were on some kind of rooftops, moving forward over some scary parts near a deep edge, towards the relative safety of where the primal group was staying for that moment.
    it was difficult but with some help i managed to get there.
    I ended up sitting on a bench squeezed up next to some guy I did not know, but who seemed overwhelmed with sadness.
    I turned to him to listen to what he wanted to tell me, and listening to his distress my own gates suddenly opened up as well, enabling me to choose to start letting out some of my own deep deep sadness.
    it felt kind of liberating to get the opportunity, and shortly after we were walking to some group room, other than primal people around as well, and I felt how my sadness started to pour out, tears, crying, a desire to howl and scream, some of it already there, some more of it for which I hesitated, how would it come across to those other people? I felt that was less important than letting it out, and kept moving to the group room, but then I woke up.
    it feels reassuring to have dreams like that, between all the other pleasant or unpleasant dreams..

    • Larry says:

      Maybe that dream was trying to tell you something Margaret. 🙂

    • Phil says:

      That sounds like a significant dream, but not as good as attending the retreat in person.
      I think Larry made a good point.

    • sylvia says:

      Maybe, Margaret, you were triggered by your intake exercises in your class of dealing with patients full of emotions that would bring on your feelings too. And being in a non-primal environment it would be hard to gauge how acceptable those feelings being let out would be viewed by primally-uninitiated psychologists. Though everyone would benefit if they could let go, it could be frightening to see out of control feelings from someone’s past pain coming from a well-balanced person in today’s culture. If you are nuts, it’s acceptable.

  121. Margaret says:

    yeah, it occurred to me how discouraging it would be to find out in that far future earth has turned into a barrren world like the planet Mars, with maybe some plastic still being blown around…
    we seem to have different experiences with teaching, I actually liked most classes, apart from some in high school given by frustrated women which were a minority.
    i liked to be taught, but in some classes was bored and made drawings or read in the textbooks about what was still ahead.
    maths were a problem, specially when I got a very bitchy arrogant woman for a teacher, who also did dislike me, and well, for religion I also flunked one time, haha..

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I liked school and was often “teachers pet” because it seemed I was good at most classes. The exception was languages, including my own, English. Even in those classes the teachers appeared to like me.

      However, that was not the point of my comment. I started to think about education as a faculty, later in life and realised that the most complex thing I ever learned was to speak my language, without any attempt by my parents to teach me. Other thing also began to fall into place, like steering my life towards the things I liked and wanted, but being aware that I had to contemplate the potential consequences.

      Then the more mundane things like looking for a relationship and after finding one, making it work. There are no schools/classes, as far as I know, that teaches any of this. There are some books on several of these thing, but none appealed to me. At the time I started therapy I began to look into several things about the way I was thinking about life and began to come to the idea that the best things in life come to me through experiences: not being taught.

      Now, being on the last lap of life, I begin to feel that many of the things I learned, like history and geography, even trigonometry, algebra, geometry: which I was good at, didn’t serve much purpose to my “living of life”.


  122. Margaret says:

    which picture or illustration did you add to the comment?
    sure my dream tells me about my own feelings, that seems evident,or do you mean something in specific?

    • Larry says:

      I added a smiley to the comment Margaret. Seems clear to me Margaret that your dream is telling you to go to the retreat.

  123. Margaret says:

    just saw a great documentary of David Attenborough about two tiny jaguar cups, two sisters, rescued from poachers. a Brasilian team set up a project to raise them in a way they could at some point be set free into the wild again and fetch for themselves.
    they put them in a large enclosure in the jungle while they learned to hunt, and when they were two years old the moment had finally come they could try opening up the enclosure .
    one female was more dominant and at first she had hurt herself just before getting out of the cage, so they kept both jaguars for one more month to allow the wound to heal, and then the big moment finally came. the smaller sister was the first to venture out, the dominant one was somewhat puzzled at first but then followed full of curiosity.
    they had collars on so could be followed by satellite. at some point the small one remained in one spot, but then they discovered she had made a big kill, a pekari, which she hung out by until she had eaten every bit of meat…
    that was a great discovery, showing now they could really take care of themselves.
    later on hidden cameras also showed the bigger sister had found a dominant male as a mate…
    this is so touching, all the more as the project involves changing the mindset of the former poachers to now take care of the safety of the jaguars, by working as guides and taking care of the tourist information center where information and videos of the wild jaguars can be watched.
    one great hopeful project, including one female called Esperanza, and her two cups, about to go their own way, all of them already back in the wild for a longer time.
    this is encouraging, as it engages the local people in Brasil, and their views on what the jaguar represents for them.
    it was so touching to see these fabulous cats walk off into their freedom, they are really superb, and well, somehow there is a similarity for me with my two little brothers here, one also big and strong, and the other smaller but very fast and smart, a nice team and also beautiful and a privilege to have a close bond with…

  124. Margaret says:

    for some reason, despite knowing Larry was just trying to help, I get a little triggered by being pointed out to me what my own dream means, as if I am not capable to feel it myself.
    to me it does not mean i should go to the next retreat at all.
    it feels more like ok, as phil says, being at a retreat is indeed much better as to be in direct feeling contact with others, to be triggered, to get feedback, to feel their emotions.
    of course i know that, and get that message, and sure I do want to attend more retreats.
    but another feeling I get out of my dream is I am able to connect to my feelings in other ways, like by making up my own internal primal setting while asleep even.
    and talking to my fellow students and getting emotional while relating my first feeling breakthrough did feel very good as they were attentive and connected and it felt like they felt by my emotion how deep and genuine that feeling had been and still is.
    I feel very clear at this point about not feeling like I want to go to the summer retreat this year.
    I feel I am doing fine by working on my life here at the moment.
    I think I am emotionally allergic to feling criticized or doubted about or something that reminds me of that kind of stuff.
    and maybe I feel vulnerable as I question my own actions and decisions all the time anyway.
    still, thanks, it is not a bad thing to reflect on this and finding out my decision about this year is very clear.
    thanks for all the feedback,

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Everyone: Although I used Margaret’s comment to reply, it’s really just me saying how I feel about a couple of things Margaret mentioned.
      I am really enjoying life here and our little home and it’s garden. I can’t say that I find this area of the Netherlands a total delight. Maybe I’m a child of the Pennine hills, and flat countryside is not my preference.

      To my point; If I were to never go to another retreat, have session, or even see LA again I feel I got good therapy, and I’ve done a lot of things in my life that worked out well for me. AND yep!! there are plenty of things that I wished at the time had been different. The best thing for me was that I did read “The Primal Scream” … and I could easily have missed it.

      I continue to have feelings, usually in bed at night, and and I just put my head under the blanket, and let out what is there at that moment. Sometimes there is some vocalization, but I’ve told my Jimbo not to worry about it, as it’s just me doing my number. We are doing better than ever as a relationship and I’m so pleased I have him.

      I still marvel about the shear simplicity of this therapy, and that I was so lucky to get it. I love the blog and read every comment and that also helps me feel some sort of connection to you all. For now … hope you’s all the very best.


  125. Margaret says:

    do you think you can reconnect now with your cousin or your uncle, is he still alive?

    • Phil says:

      My uncle passed away quite a few years ago. Well, I accepted my cousin’s Facebook friend request and we were messaging. I found some old contact information for my sister and gave it to her, and since then she hasn’t written back. I will be interested to know if she gets a response from my sister, because I have had no success with that. The issue for me is whether or not to contact more members of the family, but I haven’t made any decision about that. I’m not feeling that enthusiastic about it,

      • Phil says:

        My cousin was also asking about my brother; how he is doing, am I in touch with him etc.
        I feel very guilty about that and finally told her the truth, which is he is somewhere in the state of CT mental healthcare system but I have been unable to locate him. He was “committed” many years ago when he was a teenager, so I have no control over what happens to him, but I should have at least kept track of him. Years ago they moved him around without informing me. I made a lot of phone calls and couldn’t get answers. No one I talk to seems to know and they use the excuse of patient privacy laws
        to be uncooperative.
        After telling my cousin a little about this, she hasn’t written back. Probably she feels uncomfortable and doesn’t know what to say, as she didn’t know about all this.

  126. Margaret says:

    I guess I can relate to your feelings on the matter.
    I regret not having had more contact with the grandchildren etc. of my half sister, lost touch with them when my dad passed away, and they were still small kids back then.
    now i see more of them occasionally, when they pass by while I am at my sister’s, but it is not that simple to reestablish a connection, I remember them better , probably than they remember me, or who knows, if I think of myself as a kid I kind of liked some family members right away, or not…
    but now I heard one of the nephews said it would be nice if I would come along to the stables with my sister, as he works with horses a lot, one day.
    that would indeed be nice and a good way to share something.
    it just takes some time and effort to spend time together and to wait and see if it works out to some degree I guess, but circumstances need to work out as well.
    being in touch with the ones you know already is a starting point, and you can only gain in the process.
    even brief messages seem better than nothing, as they invite to more.
    wish you the best in any case, M

  127. Margaret says:

    she might also simply not know what to say.
    it is hard to imagine you are denied information on your own brother like this, I would feel extremely frustrated.
    of course your situation is different, but as you feel bad about it, I hope you can find some way anyway to get answers and maybe to see him if possible.
    do you think your boss, a doctor, or maybe a lawyer could be of help here?
    it is unacceptable the first institute or clinic does not help you to follow the track as to find him, I would think you have every right to get that kind of help…
    I understand it must be a very painful situation for you to be in.

  128. Phil says:

    To call it a mental healthcare system is an exaggeration. They are very disorganized and incompetent. To find my brother might be a job for a private investigator. Because he was
    never a functioning adult in society there is little to go by, there are no helpful public records.

  129. Margaret says:

    it is very nice to hear you guys have settled in so well, even in that flat country, smiley.
    one province, the region of ‘de Veluwe’, has hills…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I might try that region if I get me a ‘go cart’ or ‘electric vehicle’. For now we just use the bus system that is very efficient.


  130. Margaret says:

    wow Phil, that situation is really shocking for my European ears, unbelievable..

    • Phil says:

      New York City and LA both have over 50,000 homeless people, and it’s a big problem in other cities. Many of those homeless people have mental health conditions. Starting in the 1960’s, many mental health hospitals were shut down all over the country. My brother used to be in one of those facilities and I remember it as an OK place. It was closed down over 20 years ago and things went down hill after that for him..


  131. Margaret says:

    do you consider organizing some search?

    • Phil says:

      I should make some more efforts to find him but haven’t decided what to do next.
      I hit a dead end with phone calls.

  132. Margaret says:

    maybe your idea of a private investigator is not such a bad idea.
    or you could look up on the web if there are organisations to search for lost relatives, or contact some police offices or clinics in the areas that seem most likely?
    it would be nice if you could find some help, maybe even from your family.

  133. Margaret says:

    or maybe organisations like the salvation army or shelters?
    sorry to go on about it, it seems to get under my own skin somehow…
    thinking of you , M

  134. Margaret says:

    did I hurt you or offend you?
    if so I am sorry, I hope I made it clear enough this is a sore old feeling for me, mostly mom stuff, about being questioned or corrected.

    • Larry says:

      You take me by surprise Margaret. Where did that come from? You haven’t done or said anything that I would feel offended by. My thoughts and feelings have been quite far elsewhere the past couple of weeks (months even).

  135. Phil says:

    I solved the mystery about my brother today. I found out from an internet search that he passed away some time ago, but I was never notified. I don’t know why this didn’t come up when I made so many phone calls and internet searches previously. This feels very bad, I should have done so much better, I should have been a better brother. It hits me hard. It brings up memories of our childhood together. It’s very sad, his life was terrible. This explains a lot of things, and at least I know now.
    I’m sure I’ll have a lot of feelings about this later on after work.

  136. Phil, I’m so so sorry to hear that. Please let us know if we can help in any way. Gretchen

  137. Phil says:

    More about my brother. Almost no one will be able to understand how it could happen like this.
    Maybe only my wife, because she saw him when we had him to our house for visits. After a while I didn’t do that any more because it wasn’t working out. Then for a while I was only visiting him until they moved him much further away.
    One time someone from called associated with the state mental health system; I think a student intern writing a paper about how people are affected by a family member with a severe mental health condition. There was going to be a long questionnaire to answer over the phone.
    She asked if I would do it, and I gave her some basic information. Some days later when she called I refused to go to the phone. My wife ended up trying to answer for me.
    I couldn’t answer those questions in an understandable way, and it felt like torture. I got the feeling I was going to have to make up answers because nothing happening with me or my family was ever normal or in any understandable, and then there’s my own mental issues.

  138. Phil says:

    Thanks Gretchen

  139. Phil says:

    I think for sure I should schedule a session, so I’m going to do that. I can tell that I will let out some big feelings about this later on after work. It’s more than just feeling very sad, i feel all messed up
    with guilt.

  140. sylvia says:

    Take care, Phil; a shock for you this day. Sorry. Hope your session brings some relief or resolve. Take care.

  141. All the best to you as you grieve & try come to terms with this terrible revelation, Phil.

  142. Phil says:

    Sylvia, Thanks, I had huge feelings with it a while ago, and I will also be doing a session. A lot of sadness and it went deep.
    It also opened up big feelings of wanting and needing help from my father. Needing his help to
    do things I should be doing, but avoid. In this case, my father wasn’t around, he’s been long gone for years, but it triggered the feeling anyway, and touched on a bunch of old stuff. It’s the first time I’ve felt this so deeply and clearly. As I remember my father was very lenient and easy going; he hardly ever pushed me to do anything. I needed his help to encourage or even push me to do a lot of important stuff I was avoiding, and he didn’t do that. Also, I just needed help from him with all of the sadness and grief, and he helped a little, but not much, not nearly enough. And there was a lot of sadness and grief, and still is.
    I should have been keeping track of my brother and visiting him, and that has been in my mind for a long time, but I just wasn’t doing it. My wife does understand because she saw my brother enough times. He was very crazy, literally. She remembers how him visiting here could no longer work, and why. He would become totally unmanageable in an extreme way. So that’s helpful but still not an excuse for me, in my mind. I also visited him where he lived, but then he was moved much further away, and I never went there.
    I’m sure there will be a lot more feelings coming up about all this.
    She also reminded me that my father advised us to completely forget about my brother, because he was truly a hopeless case, and getting stuck with him could ruin our lives. But I could never quite take that advice to heart.
    My father said that so many things were tried and didn’t work. But I also remember my brother from childhood being an intact person, a person with problems. We played together like any siblings do, and it is just all very sad.

    • Larry says:

      It touches me how attached you are to your brother who you haven’t seen in a very long time Phil, and how you remember him in childhood as an intact person with problems who you played together with. It makes me think of my relationship with my siblings.

      There are 6 of us. I am the oldest. We played as kids but as we got older and became teenagers I withdrew into myself while the 4 other next oldest grew out into their lives and eventually moved away from home. In a sense there was nothing they could do to help me or reach me. I had so much fear it seemed I might end up in an institution or heavily drugged in order to function. By the time when only my youngest brother and I still lived at home, I had read the Primal Scream and had done some self-primaling, which gave me some insight into myself. It had shifted my head around in a healthy way.

      My youngest brother and I, still growing into life, needed each other. I opened up and risked connection with him. We enjoyed each others company, played catch, went to movies, stuff like that. We formed a bond that I never had with my other siblings. When I went to LA for therapy, I told him about the Primal Scream. He read it and it made sense to him.

      To this day he is the sibling I am closest to. I have a feeling that I am important to him. I shudder to think what would have happened had I not found the Primal Scream, and had I gone the route that took your brother, and how sad my youngest brother would be had my life unfolded in that unfortunate way, which it would have had it not been for the Primal Scream. Your story makes me think how important siblings are to each other, especially if they had some closeness while growing up. It makes me think of the sad effect it would have had on my family and especially my youngest sibling had I not found Primal therapy to help me salvage my life. The story of you and your brother strikes a sad chord in me.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: the story of you and your younger brother is very touching. I was the first of four. Boy, girl, boy girl … and one year apart.

        We were close and I still am with my remaining two sisters, and was with my “little” bother, right up until several weeks before he died..

        I feel we each of us owe it to our mother … she was definitely quite feeling full … though not perfect …. who is perfect anyway ??????


      • Phil says:

        It’s true that siblings can be very important, as is clear about the bond you describe with your youngest brother. I’m feeling inspired to share more about my brother. He was 5 years older than me and in my early years I can remember playing with him like normal kids. As I got older I became aware of my him having problems. There were a lot of conflicts and incidents. We had a social worker to help with my brother, as he could no longer function in school because of severe emotional and social problems. It was decided that he would be sent away to a special school, far away, in another state. After that I saw him much less, only around holidays and a little in the summer. In general we didn’t relate as well during those visits as we had earlier. I had friends but he didn’t have any.
        From what I know now t this experience of being sent away from home must have greatly further traumatized him. It certainly didn’t help, from what I remember.
        He finished with that school at about age 16 and came to live back home. He had some neighborhood friends earlier as a young kid, but by this time all of that was long gone. There was nothing for him at home. He tried to kill himself and had a psychotic break. I remember all of this very clearly. Yesterday in my feelings I was remembering the craziness I saw in his eyes. When he was about 18 my father decided to have him committed to the state, I guess because he was so unmanageable. I don’t remember him saying how this decision was made, but it was all very stressful for me.
        After that my brother lived at the state mental hospital, but we did have him home very often on weekends for visits. This hospitalization didn’t improve his condition, it wasn’t designed to do that. There was nothing they could do for him, he was just warehoused there. I think his condition got worse over time and he was more heavily medicated.
        Writing all this has me feeling very sad.

        • Larry says:

          I feel that I can identify to some extent with what your brother was going through. I shudder to think of how more and more desperately alone and afraid he must have felt. It seems like all the adults in his life failed him. Probably I’m projecting my own experience, but it seems to me that you, his little brother, were the best human connection he ever had.

          • Phil says:

            Going back to what you said here, that ” you, his little brother, were the best human connection he ever had”. I don’t know about that, I don’t think so. I’m not sure I was that significant for him. In his psychotic condition he heard voices, and talked to himself a lot. Something to do with Satan the devil, demons and other things like that. He was also clearly fixated with our parents and certain incidents he repetitively would talk about. Something happening in a car; but nothing I could remember or relate to. But isn’t it with our neuroses, all of us our fixated on our parents? I wasn’t included in his ramblings or our sister. In his case, his psychosis, it was no longer repressed, it all came out, but in a jumble. The question came up for me, was he happy to see me. My first answer was yes, but with more thought my answer is, not really. He certainly recognized me, I was familiar, but it was more like what he could get out of me. He could come to my house, and smoke endless cigarettes, lighting the next one from the end of the one he was finishing. I could buy him some more cigarettes. I’m not sure you could say that made him “happy”. It just satisfied some obsessions.
            If we let him, he would drink an outrageous number of cups of coffee and completely empty the sugar bowl in one day. He needed to be watched, because of a fear he could burn the house down. He liked to do all that and also endlessly listen to some records from his childhood which I still happened to have. He wanted freedom to do all of those things, while talking to himself and sometimes us, about all the nonsensical things going on in his head, but almost nothing about the outside world. I could maybe tolerate all of that and find a way to deal with it, for a limited time, whereas others probably couldn’t. My wife was totally done with it after a certain point, and didn’t want him coming back, and I couldn’t at all blame her. But that has nothing to do with my failure to visit him or keep track of him.
            With all of that in mind though. I could of course recognize him as my brother, but he was not at all the same person as before he went crazy. He never had a life; only an extremely difficult childhood. He lived his entire adult life as an institutionalized psychotic.
            So there is a tremendous load of sadness with all of that.

            • Phil says:

              I literally mean my brother had almost no focus on the outside world, outside of his head. Only a few things like being hungry, wanting some more cigarettes etc. Very few things. I guess I just want to clarify what he was like. Because there’s being “crazy”, and being literally crazy, and I find people don’t tend to understand the difference.

              • Larry says:

                What very very difficult circumstances for you to grow up in Phil.

              • Jack Waddington says:

                Phil: I am not sure I understand the difference between being crazy and being totally crazy.
                My feeling it is a sliding scale between somewhat crazy to being even more crazy, but I’m not sure we have the tools as of yet, to decide how we might grade a person on that sliding scale.

                Jack .

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Phil: This story of your brother has grabbed me very intensely and I, for now, cannot fathom the reason. So, I’ll write here to see what it might bring up for me. I hope you don’t mind.

              It demonstrates to me the unutterable trauma your brother must have gone through somewhere in his early life or in the womb. That need for him to talk to himself suggest that he had no-one but himself he could talk to … yet needed to talk about it.
              I am not sure it would be productive, in the therapeutic sense, to know what he was saying, BUT I do feel that if a therapist, with deep knowledge about feelings, were to look at the feelings going on inside him, rather than trying to translate the meaning of the words … there might be the clue/s to the trauma/s that caused it all.
              I am not sure that even Primal therapy would have been able to help him, since I feel, from your relating about him, his trauma was so severe, he would not able to even to respond to being in a room with a therapist, let alone be able to take in what he/she was saying. That said, what could be done for all those who are suffering such sever brain damage/psychosis or any other name we might give it.

              Suddenly … just writing and re-reading what I had so far written, I am beginning to see why I am so taken by this story of yours Phil. There’s got to be some way to help these poor souls. Just what; I have no idea … but I am certain that it will occupy me for some time.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: a very sad moment for you. I feel all of on the blog reading your story are with you in this moment. I certainly am. It brings up for me when my brother died and it will be three years, as of the 11th of this month.
      Take care Phil ……….. I don’t need the acknowledment; unless you feel the need


  143. Leslie says:

    Sorry to hear all that you have and will have to go through Phil…
    From the beginning I thought you were very brave writing as you did.
    Your brother’s sad decline happened so long ago when you too were just a child trying to survive.
    Please take good care of yourself.

  144. Leslie says:

    Phil – Just as I posted my entry in response to your 12:42 entries your new 6:04 appeared.
    Just so you know – I did not see it until after mine got posted.

  145. Margaret says:

    ok, it is part of my old feeling to fil in a silence, after I replied among others to you, with ‘disapproval’, which is not only a mom but a sstrong daddy feeling.
    glad I asked though to get it out of my system.
    gonna read the rest of the 15 comments of this morning now, thanks, M

  146. Margaret says:

    oh dear Phil,
    I am so very sorry for you, and for your brother.
    always here as you know, M

  147. Margaret says:

    what your father advised sounds so cold, unless he added he would keep visiting your brother which I doubt he added.
    so much pain and unmet need to deal with, I am glad you created yourself a warm family, a huge achievement.
    glad you immediately booked a session, take care, thinking of you,

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, It’s true that the advise my father gave me about my brother sounds cold. But you don’t know what that situation is like, do you? I didn’t take my fathers advice to heart and I don’t think he did either. We did the best we could, which wasn’t very good. Today, I’m noticing big feelings building up about all this again. I didn’t let it out yet, but it’s about how it’s too much to for me to deal with. It always has been, and my brother had been just one part of that. I have family members ask about my brother; they don’t have a clue about what it has been like all these years, and when it first happened, or anything else in my family. It didn’t happen like that to them. Phil

  148. Phil says:

    Everyone, thank you for listening to me and giving support. It’s very helpful

  149. Margaret says:

    you are right.
    noone can know or even imagine how it was for you and your family.
    and your dad also seemed to want to protect you and your sister from more hurt.
    it is all so very sad, while everyone did what they could.

  150. Margaret says:

    never mind. it was when i had replied to the feedback about my ‘primal’ dream, and maybe someow I feared you would feel criticized or something. on hindsight it was all my projections…

    • Larry says:

      Margaret I was away on holiday and wasn’t aware of your reply until just now. That feedback of mine was a comment I felt moved to make that I felt might be useful to you or or not or might irritate you, or might give me insight into myself, and I decided to post it and risk what would result. I wholly appreciate that no one is more expert on you than you are, and that progress in therapy means gaining confidence in making important life decisions. I considered that by making that comment I risked you becoming angry at me since you tend to anger easily and you had already made known your decision not to go to the retreat. Prior to every retreat I vacillate between going or not, weighing many of the same factors as you have discussed, except for me travel is easier than it is for you, so I wholly empathize with your decision.

      I have experienced significant health setbacks this winter that greatly hampered my life and caused me to withdraw more and more into weary dispirited isolation. Finally my health issue seems to be resolved and I am no longer so physically limited from life and I now have to compel myself to regain participation in life, to pick up the threads of my life where I can, which feels like needing to push myself more than usual into my discomfort and uncertainty zone. For me it would initially be easier and more comfortable not to go to the summer retreat. My struggle to overcome and improve my current situation may have been the underlying pressure that prompted my comment to you back then Margaret.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: I felt bad for you saying you’d felt “significant health setbacks this winter”but pleased to read that some of seems to be getting resolved.
        That made me reflect on some decisions I have made since leaving the US. One of them was everyone was insisting I get a hearing aid, as seemingly everyone including my Jimbo was for ever complaining and irritated that did not hear them. I refused; feeling that once I were to take that step I would come to rely on it, as has happened with other health matters throughout my life.

        I remember distinctly in my first year at school at age 4 and having to go for an eye test that was being provided for every one. Since I didn’t know the letters of the alphabet they had a card that showed a hand pointing in different direction like:- right, left, up and down. I was confused about what I was being asked for by the examiner. He then decided I needed very strong glasses. Not only did these ‘dingle dangles’ on my face irritate me and cause skin problem round my ears, but ever year they upped the lens prescription. I then came to rely on them …my eyes adapted to them.

        Jim, being a medical professional. is always insisting on medical remedies which I often feel unsure about. My feeling is that our own bodies know best. I don’t seem to be able to persuade him; PILLS are not MY way. We’ll often get into conflagrations about it, where he finishes up saying I know nothing about it, GGGRRR!!
        Got that one off my chest


        • Jack Waddington says:

          To add to my last comment … my hearing seems to be improving somewhat … not perfect but it’s nice to have one less ‘dingle dangle’ to deal with.


  151. Margaret says:

    ok, thanks for your reply.
    what made me smile a somewhat wry smile is you see me as easily angered, which is interesting as I do not like easily angered people at all, try to avoid them, at least I think, but this too is probably not entirely correct when I take a close look at myself.
    interesting , I should explore that area, while at the same time it feels like I already have come a long way with it as well…
    i guess some of my anger seeps through the cracks easily, while the major stuff is still suppressed, time will tell.
    some of it has come up but I guess mostly in indirect ways, sigh

  152. Margaret says:

    to me it seems a very normal fact of life for most of us hearing declines with age.
    but it is true that is very annoying for others and for ourselves, so I don’t see why you object against wearing a hearing aid in situations where it would really help.
    your hearing will not improve , on the contrary, and it will not decline either by using a hearing aid, in my experience rather the opposite as neurons get activated again to a bigger extent.
    if it is silent around you might still hear enough for yourself, but it sounds like for Jim you do not.
    I have hearing aids which can be very useful, so I choose when to wear them, and my mom has one and boy, is it a relief when she wears them, for her but mostly for anyone wanting to communicate with her.
    so well, I think it might be a good idea for you to try them out, jim would probably be very very grateful, as it is exhausting and very irritating to have to repeat everything and to have to shout to be heard properly.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Perhaps I did not explain the situation fully enough, so! I’ll try again.

      With respect to Jim and I, there is now no problem, as I feel more able to hear what he says, even though there are those moments (due to articulation) when I miss hear one word, I contend; though I could be fooling myself. I feel my hearing HAS improved due to wanting to hear; especially what Jim says. Then again I am not getting out there into public places.

      One other example … I have for some time been suffering from “Intermittent Claudicatiion” in my calf muscles, which restrict the distance I can walk before needing to rest. I have set out to walk further and further each time we go to the local shopping center and now I find I can walk there, then through the super market, and back home without resting. That was not the case before. I would need to rest at least twice or three times.

      Yet! I do have to admit that getting old does create many impairment … none of which I like, AND … I am your mother’s age.
      My intent for mentioning all this is to put out there what is going on for me … at a time when I’m getting up towards my 90’s.


  153. Margaret says:

    sure, glad to hear you became able to walk to the supermarket and back now.
    the hearing aids are indeed especially useful when it gets more difficult to hear properly due to some background noise.
    me too, one on one, at home, I never use them, but in some circumstances they sure make a big difference for the better.
    and then when there really is too much background noise that advantage again diminishes as not all background noise gets filtered away.
    modern hearing aids though have an automatic focus in the direction you loook towards.
    they are not cheap, so you better make sure your medical insurance is ok with it.
    still, in the ‘Hans Anders’ stores they provide cheaper offers, which are probably pretty good as well.
    you sound great, hopefully we will get some real spring weather soon, everyone craves some pleasant sunshine…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: thanks for the message I’ll give that consideration.
      As for that sunshine and clear blue skies, I’ relying on you sending over the border


  154. Margaret says:

    are you once more in the middle of a snowstorm?
    it was on the news here NY and some other states are packed with snow again and stron winds blowing.
    hope you still have electricity.
    take care, M

  155. Phil says:

    We did get hit with another big snowstorm. It gave me the day off from work yesterday and it
    was a big job shoveling the driveway. But I was very glad to get the day off from work. Luckily, so far, we haven’t lost power.
    Finding out about my brother’s death has been continuing to open up a lot of feelings, memories, and pain having to do with his very terrible history and the affect that had on me as a child.


  156. Phil says:

    Jack, the common experience I’ve had is that people didn’t get it when I would say my brother was crazy, insane, psychotic, and in an institution. I think most people have had little or no exposure to that level of mental illness and so just can’t understand. Maybe a very short encounter with a homeless person or something, is all they have ever had.

    That has especially been a problem for me trying to describe the situation to a family member who never saw him in years, since he was a child. He had very little self awareness, the very quality which makes us human, very little awareness of reality. Voices of demons in his head were hounding him day and night. He mostly could not distinguish his internal reality from the external world. The strongest medications did not make his demons go away or clear up his thinking, they only made him more manageable for caretakers. Mental illness exists on a spectrum but there is a big qualitative difference between neurosis and psychosis. My understanding is that some borderline cases of psychosis are responsive to drugs and therapy, which can make the voices, delusions, and very irrational thinking go away. My brother was not one of those cases. Phil

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: it is a very sad story and heart wrenching for everyone that was involved with him,. and of course for him also. Hope you can get some closure somehow.


    • Christopher S. Fite says:

      Some born-again Christians would say that there is a spiritual aspect to life, for some people, and that there is indeed a “kingdom of darkness”, where Satan and demons exist. Your brother may have been severely afflicted by Satan and his demons–at least, this seemed to be your brother’s reality. Something like an exorcism might have helped him.

  157. Otto Codingian says:

    why i cry at winston churchill movie?. maybe fight! fight! which some primal therapist or spouse or someone told me at some point. i fight on.

  158. Leslie says:

    Hope you like this article. There are definitely some great passages and quotes.
    Also reminds me why our retreats are so powerful and comforting!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Leslie: I read the whole link you sent, I found him (Weller) to be emphasizing grief as a collective process. I somewhat disagreed with that, as I can easily feel and express grief on my own and have done so for some years now. I don’t need rituals, or a group setting. I just express it, best way I know how; but it is good if I have someone to share it with.

      I think he made many points that Janov made, BUT I got the feeling he was “re-inventing the wheel”. It’s what I most fear from all these types of people like; they make it appear as if they are the pioneer in this area. If they are aware of Janov and not acknowledging him I find that remiss. If on the other hand they are not aware of him I feel they should be reminded of Janov’s work. In this sense, he’s not as thorough as Janov

      He did bring up the “tribal” aspects of us humans. I wrote the other day, responding to Fareed Zakaria on his CNN program where he interviewed a woman who also insisted on this tribal notion of us humans. I responded stating our first and foremost tribe was the family. If that did not get fulfilled in our early life, then we were forever seeking “to belong”, and the easiest step was a tribe, perhaps with a tribal leader.

      Interesting in the sense that he does parallel Janov. Thanks Leslie.


      • Leslie says:

        Thanks Jack. I agree with what you say. I guess it is refreshing to read someone at least trying to unearth some vulnerability.
        I should actually write to people about Primal Therapy like I do in my head – as there is a definite omission of Janov’s work.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Leslie: Anything you care to write, I would be very interested in reading. You could send me a copy directly, if that is what you’d prefer.


          • Leslie says:

            Thanks Jack,
            I actually should have written “as there is a definite omission of recognition for Janov’s work” up above.
            I, like you believe wholeheartedly in Primal Therapy. I cannot imagine my life without it. Actually I can, and it was so self destructive before Primal so can only imagine that would have gotten worse… I could have lost so much of what I had and instead I’ve gained more than ever. Is there still more to uncover, explore and feel – or feel, explore, uncover ? –
            My most welcomed treasure is to now usually know how I am genuinely feeling. I like if I am able to recognize my feeling, hold it there and perhaps not have to go any further right then – depending on the situation. From formally trying to ‘wack a mole’ any uncomfortable feeling, numbing myself to it, hiding it, & trying desperately to change it to now sensing/accepting it is such a comfort.

            Another huge area of evolution is with Barry and I. We will celebrate 40 years of marriage in May!! In fact, Prince Harry and Meghan have chosen our wedding day for theirs this year! That is how very special it is!!
            Anyway, what we share – how we live is truly with such gratitude to therapy. Of course we have disagreements, quarrel and all that, but the difference of how we can get through what we need to with ourselves and each other is incredible. And there too – so much more to reveal, and that is a wonderful thing.

            So Margaret my unwritten letters to so many are just my attempt to let people know about how lives can be changed through the expert care & guidance of authentic Primal Therapy.

    • Phil says:

      A lot of good stuff in that article. Some of the grieving rituals do sound like our retreats.
      It’s true that we need help with our grief and can’t necessarily do it alone, that’s why we go to therapy
      Thanks for sharing.

      • Leslie says:

        Hey Phil, I know B. had such a hard time trying to help his sister and then having to withdraw from her for his/our survival. So very tragic.
        Take care.

        • Phil says:

          I was commenting on the link you shared.
          What happened with my brother is continuing to bother me and bring up feelings. It seems to add into a lot of other old things. It will continue to bother me, I’m afraid.
          My wife suggested yesterday that I inform my uncle. But the event is old, and I don’t feel like saying how long ago it happened. So, I doubt I will inform anyone. I don’t think any extended family members saw my brother since he was a child, over 45 years ago, so they don’t get it. It’s been all my problem to deal with, since my father passed away, a long time ago. I never had the feeling I could help my brother, to relieve his suffering, or anything like that. I don’t think anyone did.

          • Leslie says:

            Hi Phil – I knew you were commenting on the link.
            I just meant you tried to make your brother’s life a little fuller when you and your family could – not a rescue.
            Thinking of you as you cope with all that surfaces Phil.

  159. Leslie says:

    p.s. Meant to mention that the link is called “The Geography of Sorrow” and I think you would like it
    Margaret – both personally and for your studies.
    Thinking of Phil, Larry and all of us too…

  160. Margaret says:

    Leslie, thanks for the tip. I read a large part of the article, but on one hand it was a bit too general to be of use apart from bringing the manes to attention, as for any paper we need ‘peer reviewed’ articles, preferablly published in professional magazines, but anyway luckily i am still far from those assignments, or well, not that far of some but still….
    also I feel like a cold is really trying to work its way into my system so I do my best to relax and rest, I canceled a tango appointment yesterday, too bad, as it had been already too long since I went dancing…
    sigh, but we are strongly advised not to miss one gathering of our actual course at university, if we miss out twice we are out of the practicum group, and it is an interesting but challenging one.
    I got the feedback of the first assigned report I wrote, and I seemed to have missed some of the rules, so there were plenty of corrections and it was clear we have to add much more detailed feedback than i thought, even if we repeat ourselves, every phrase needs feedback, ha…
    luckily the teacher saw I had put a lot of work in my report in a differnt way so I do not have to revise this first one, have to use her own feedback on it to adjust the next one…
    sorry to babble, I feel a bit feverish and have to get into action here at home as well now, take care, and it would be nice to hear what you would want to tell people about PT.

  161. Leslie says:

    Margaret – hope you feel better soon!
    Not thinking you would quote from there but that there might be original studies to view or get quotes from mentioned in article. No worries though :).

  162. marshallhuffman says:

    It’s funny and bizarre to see discussion of Francis Weller – who I had never heard of before today – just moments after I finished crying over a video that used his work and interviews. It’s from a brilliant YouTube channel called “Like Stories of Old,” which has a lot of videos I’d recommend. His videos about Cloud Atlas, It’s a Wonderful Life, Moonlight, the King Archetype in Fiction, and this one about Terrance Malick’s The New World, all had me weeping deeply. He’s such a humane and sensitive essayest, who’s brillaint at starting with the symbolic and peeling the layers back to the needs and feelings beneath.

    • Larry says:

      Thanks for the introduction to that YouTube channel. I watched The Philosophy of Blade Runner 2049, which I found to be an interesting interpretation of a very interesting movie.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Marshall: I presume you are the same guy I met at the retreat last summer. Good to see you on here. You seem to be getting into it all there. Take care and keep blogging … good for the soul.


  163. Margaret says:

    Dear Phil,
    you are the one to know best what would help you most, and to decide whether you can hope for some support of family members or not.
    you can use all support you can get with this amount of pain, it is good you talk about it with your wife.

    • Phil says:

      There isn’t any support I would likely get from family members about this. Probably I won’t tell them about it unless they ask, which isn’t that likely.

  164. Margaret says:

    what about that cousin or her dad?
    even if they can’t understand it all, they came across like nice people by what you said but of course you know best.
    I merely want you to have some friendly gentle souls to to listen to you, and they might be the ones most familiar with the difficulties of your childhood.
    but of course you also have Barry.
    take care of yourself, M

  165. Phil says:

    Margaret, I’m afraid I feel my family members to be a problem in relation to this, not any help, as maybe you can see from what I’ve written. There is all the past stuff brought up by this and a whole mixture of feelings. I’m not writing here looking for a solution, just expressing what’s going on with me.

  166. Otto Codingian says:

    a little bit of magic for me. turned to the grateful dead channel in the car after walking the dog. i usually dont listen to them anymore; that was what i listened to as i was caring for otto the dachshund in his old-age final decline, too much unfelt sorrow still. driving in the car on this rainy aquarian new moon night, some good songs from the dead 1969. driving that train high on cocaine, i burst out wailing as i headed down the road. “got 2 good eyes but still can’t see, trouble ahead, trouble behind”. this reminded me of my drug troubles as a teenager and adult. felt like i could wail forever but i didnt. anyway the water bearer aquarius brought out my sorrow and tears easily, and i have had this happen to me before with that star influence. so whatever. of course the following song, mama tried, life in prison with no parole…could have been my story if i had not gotten lucky, also my grandma cared enough to bail me out of jail, and my best friend spoke some true words to the judge that got me out of a conviction.

  167. Otto Codingian says:


  168. Otto Codingian says:

    this white cat is such a joy. his fur is so soft and he loves to be petted. he finally feels comfortable enough to come into my bedroom to sleep next to me. he is still spooked a little about the black cat being in my room. the white cat’s feral cousins inhabit my garage. i need to power forth to capture them and get them fixed but all i can do is drag myself to work every day.

  169. Otto Codingian says:

    china cat now playing this was the song i listened to over and over while poor old otto lay in my lap in his morphine haze. cant wail now. i am home with the unbeliever, not to be mean, but that is how it feels.

  170. Otto Codingian says:

    HOW MUCH THERAPY DO I NEED, SHE SAYS. HA! some…or a lot, a whole lot, would have been nice, the way the past few years have gone. might have made me less of a cold, non-feeling dick….

  171. Otto Codingian says:

    but of course, that is my own fault, personal responsibility. that is what i am saying to myself right now. i am turning Japanese or maybe republican when i say this in my head. ouch.

    • Vicki says:

      So you’re saying… it’s your own fault for what? that you need more therapy, or the way the past few years have gone, or for becoming more of a “cold, non-feeling dick” ?

  172. Otto Codingian says:

    TALKING HEADS – Psycho Killer (Live) 4Κ
    I think my grandmother snatched me back from my uncle the murderer just in time.
    How can people have such talent?
    this bass playing is beautiful.

  173. Otto Codingian says:

    Tom Tom Club Genius of Love
    beauty, balance, rhythm, happiness. maybe not so much in my life. this song associated with that lack, or the inability to feel that lack and move on. this song associated with some bad points in my life when this song was on the air from time to time. cant remember what points in my life exactly. 30’s, 40’s?
    wife kids pets work money. struggled to keep going. can’t cry this to completion. wish i could. i am right there.

  174. Otto Codingian says:

    i fought to NOT like this song when it was on the air. Tove Lo – Habits (Stay High) Live in Lollapalooza 2017 with lyrics but it is catchy and sad. times were better then, when this song was current, my oldest son singing along the particular oh oh oh oh, maybe mockingly. wife and him and me in the car. he was at ucla and no longer dying from staying high all the time. also some of my mom in this, i stayed high (actually low, drugged) to kill the pain of losing her.

  175. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi Everyone: I had a weird dream last night following dreams on other nights of getting into fights with other kids. I never did like fighting, but was often forced into it when other kids started to hit me and try to drag me to the ground. Now, in these dreams I’ve been having I always get away by the skin of my teeth, OR I actually win the fight, but I never feel good about winning.

    Last night I got into a dream where I was screaming like crazy that I was dying. It’s sort of hard right now to explain exactly the sequence or even have a clear sense of what it was about about. Somehow at the end of screaming, but still in the dream, I woke up (if that makes sense) and Vivian was there and I said “was I making a lot of noise in my sleep”, and she said “no”. Then I woke up for real. I got up and went for a pee, then when I went back to bed and fell asleep again I had another one of those fighting dreams.

    So I thought I’d write all this and see if by writing, it would begin to make some sense. So far … nothing. Meantime, I am reflecting on the possibility that something in the present triggering it, BUT that doesn’t make much sense either, as things are going so well for us and we are getting on better than we’ve ever done. Jim has made our home so cozy and he’s now doing the garden even though the temperatures are often below freezing. Like this morning when there is a clear blue sky and sunshine, that I love so much, and the view outside the window is so lovely even with the bare trees. I’d like to send some pics of it all, but even though someone told me to get a web site and put them into it and give the site address, I still feel so lame not being able to do that.


    P.S. I would love to know how Vivian is doing and think about her often. If, Vivian, you read the blog I’d love to know, either on the blog or privately. Alternatively maybe you Gretchen could tell me/us. Thanks In Anticipation.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Hi all: It just occurred to me that these fighting and the screaming dreams are all about, is what I see on TV, that I watch far to much of. Bombings of innocent women and children and the utter destruction of their homes and all they have. the craziness of the feud between Teresa May and Putin. The craziness of Trump and his ideas, while the country seems to go to pot (not the smoking kind). Elections in Russia that aren’t really elections, but then that seems the case everywhere.
      I’m crazy enough to think I see a way out of it all, and write to some of the reporters I see on TV, but never get a response … so! they too must think I’m crazy.
      To me … it’s such a simple solution … granted that it’s implication could appear problematic, which I feel it would NOT be. It has to evolve in much the same way that our own recovery via this therapy happens. Not top down by authoritarian therapist, but from within ourselves, merely having someone there to just listen.
      So!!! maybe that’s what all my fighting dreams are about


  176. Margaret says:

    Phil, I am sorry about coming up with too much advice and trying to problem solve.
    I realize myself on hindsight how instead of being helpful I was probably as irritating as my mom used to be, interfering with my own thoughts and feelings.
    good you spoke up.

  177. Otto Codingian says:

    yes jack solution is simple. give the monkeys at the top of the hill so many bananas that they drown in them. i had a horrible dream about being wrapped up tightly in something, so that i was hot and could not move, and i was being kicked and tortured beyond belief. this was probably triggered by watching homeland, but i am not sure if this is a birth feeling, or something that happened later, that might have built upon that birth feeling. nevertheless it was horribly scary and not much i could do with that feeling. just too many rotten kicking monkeys in the world.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Yep, I’m one of those monkeys, and … I am a banana fan.
      Sounds to me that “being wrapped in swaddling clothes” is connected to birth. I have had the seem feeling … like my arms are trapped in them and I’m screaming and can’t wave my arms.

      I know that feeling about it all being so fuckin scarier than all hell. It doesn’t matter how, when, or why … I just need to go through it … all these millions of years later.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Correction: “I have had the seem feeling”, should have read:- “I have had the same feeling”.


  178. Otto Codingian says:

    more on tove lo (tuve lu, maybe how it is pronounced). i always get teary when i hear such lyrics: “Her honest, complex and autobiographical lyrical content has led to her being dubbed “the saddest girl in Sweden”. honest and autobiographical, mostly, is what gets me. artists like john lennon too and even …can’t remember her name, another pop star.

  179. Jack Waddington says:

    Free wheeling, with some thoughts/feelings … somewhere in the depth of me.
    Looking at CNN and seeing all that is happening around the world, makes me thing we “monkeys” made a mistake getting outta the trees. Geeeezus: we’ve sure fucked it all up. Now we see with Cambridge Analytica we can psychologically rig elections/referendums anyway these nerds want us to vote.

    Donald Trumps selection was anything but “democratic” and the US cracks itself up to be a world leader in ********* whatever that is supposed to mean.

    Just seen a TV program from Japan on “Style” where the young are shifting all the norms of behaviour, such that boys can dress up liked girls, and girls can dress up like boys and everyone of them seem all gung hoo on having fun … Yippee!!!

    On the “Drug front”; Portugal has decriminalised drugs and the consequences of drug use have become less of a criminal problem, but merely a mental health problem, and there’s less of it.. While Donald the trumpeter wants to make it a death penalty. AND we think we NEED leaders!!!!
    IMO there are only two classifications of drugs:- the ‘pain killers’ and the ‘feeling enhancers’ Feel the pain and the desire/necessity of either simply disappears. Wow!!! it’s that simple? Yeah???

    Supposedly we’re CIVILIZED. So how civil are all the wars? and terror? and starvation of little kids? and deprivation of ones home? greed for more and more money? raping of women and young girls and in some case young boys. Geezus Kristopher Colamity!!!!

    Maybe I’m getting too old… so I’ll leave it for now.


  180. Margaret says:

    that is interesting, great tip.
    I ran into his name a number of time in my courses when he was referred to or quoted.
    I copied the information and pasted it in my file with intersting stuff for if ever I have to write a paper in which i have enough control over the contents.
    i think you were on the first page of this blog though with your comment, but I might be wrong.
    i get the comments by mail so to me it remains more or less the same.
    how are you doing now?

    • Larry says:

      Margaret, sorry to have not responded to your query about how I am doing. I felt stymied in how to reply. Probably I’m depressed or something, holding back on a feeling and on life perhaps. At any rate, I will be on the road off and on for the next week or more, and perhaps might discover why I feel withdrawn.

  181. Margaret says:

    today is the remembrance of the bombing of Brussels airport and the subway.
    13 people died, and one victim , a young American woman, is still in hospital at this moment, she has had 50 operations by now.
    wow, another young victim just spoke, she is also American , Beatrice,and lost her two legs, also got severely burned on 35 percent of her body. she was crying but also impressively strong and positive. she was there standing on her prosthesis and already participated with the Paralympics, . she was crying but said she is also happy now in her life, and wants to show the terrorists did not beat her, that she survives.
    an admirable lady, as is Karen, the one still in hospital.
    and all those people helping others and coping with the horror and craziness.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Not by way of trying to put you down, but you state: “she was crying but said she is also happy now in her life, and wants to show the terrorists did not beat her, that she survives”.

      My take goes a little deeper than that. If we were to listen to those people that we deem terrorist, I feel we might get a different re-action from them. We tend, and I include myself, to see the other person from our own perspective. I’m not sure it is productive and creates an “us or them”. I would like to see it more in the perspective of:- “us and them”.

      Something that I have been helped with by buddying and also with my relationship[ with Jim.


      • sylvia says:

        Hi Jack, I just wanted to interject here into your conversation with Margaret. First I wanted to say that I think the survivors and the families of those who didn’t survive are brave and they need to be to pull through what happened to them. I do think that the terrorists are beyond listening to anyone but are in the hate mode that they will not give up. It is a groove they are happy to be in. They seem to be beyond the caring of another human being. You would have to confine them and make them realize the horror they have perpetrated and no one could live with that. I just don’t think saying ‘I feel your pain and what would you like’ would have an effect. Their repression is total at this point of having no feeling of killing families going about their daily routine. I think you are saying though, that the government should make things more equal and not breed terrorists, then yes, I agree with that.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Sylvia. I was trying to make a point that the problem goes way deeper than most (especially politicians) are prepared to look into. Terrorist are made not born. I feel strongly that the greatest factor in making a, so called, terrorist is not being listened to. When and where it all started is Primal theory, but it’s compounded by not being listened to, as time progresses, which I wish to emphasise.
          If one is in such devastating unconscious pain; then they are TOTALLY consumed by that unconscious pain, and thus are totally unable to see or think about anyone, other than themselves.

          The question might be:- what can we do now, in the present, to prevent their extreme act-out Sadly, I doubt there is a solution. What pre-occupies me is:- what can we do now to prevent these gross act-out in the children of the future? I have my notion/idea, which I feel everyone knows. However it is only a notion … but I feel it might be worth a try.


          • sylvia says:

            You are probably right about the terror-activists wanting attention and to be listened to. That is why they group together to have the comradery of like-minds, though it be a mishmash of hate rooted in their childhood. Heap the political, economic inequalities that a migrant may face and there’s more frustration at succeeding.
            The bomber in Austin, TX they caught yesterday left a suicide note saying he didn’t regret what he’d done but he thought he was a psychopath. For no reason he wanted to kill people. Mental illness that still baffles the investigators but probably related to some trauma in gestation or after.
            I recall Hinckley’s mother, after he had shot Pres. Reagan, saying that when John was born there were serious complications with the birth.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              For the most part I agree with all you say, but I was perhaps hinting at preventing the problem in the first place. We’re very good at trying to rectify matters after the fact.

              From my own perspective, what I feel CANNOT happen is giving the general population Primal therapy. The second option is to educate, potential parents, or better still, the population at large. I don’t see education as being effective as there will always be disagreement as to what that education constitutes and who teaches it. Then the question becomes is there a way to let this ‘question’ evolve?

              I feel that is the only option. Why I feel that is the only option, is because that is what happened to me on reading “The Primal Scream” Long before I read it I had an experience in a London clinic, after a penicillin injection. I did not know what the hell I had experienced, but what I did know was that in that experience I was screaming at the top on my lungs “I’m dying, I’m dying” and the taste in my mouth was unlike anything I had any prior recollection of. The colours and the scene were so vivid. The scene was familiar in some strange way. After I came down from that experience I had many insights about myself. I called it “a remembrance” (as I put it at the time), but it was unlike any other prior memory I’d ever had .

              On reading just the introduction to “The Primal Scream” I threw the book in the air and acclaimed “I’ve got it” From that moment on I was a total convert … and knew from there-on-in I had had a re-living experience. It was way beyond any concept of ‘memory’

              My point:- I do believe that many people have re-living events in their lives, Both my brother and my mother had had them, but in both their cases they rationalised it as a spiritual/religious experience. I feel there are many historical examples of just that, and the one I would cite is Saul of Taurus on the road to Damascus .. Saint Paul. I feel/believe if only we humans could shackle the major impediment to our base nature, then it would naturally occur (evolve if you like). A female who becomes pregnant, would (by nature) do the right thing by her baby, and further, should she not want to carry the pregnancy to term would abort it. The fetus knows if it is, or not wanted, and is traumatised if not wanted. I do not know, but I suspect that if that impediment to our NATURE was taken away, that the female in particular, but also her male partner would also know if their sex-act would conceive a child.

              To me, and seemingly only me … that impediment is:- “Money”


              • sylvia says:

                Jack, maybe you have the solution figured out in your mind how all that works and I guess there are many aspects to it and what you figure would happen, how it would free people. You could write a book on how the practicalities would go in our society without money. Something to think about.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Sylvia: Yes, I have this thing figured out in my head, how potentially it would all work out. That is not to say HOW IT WOULD ‘work out’ because no-one knows and that includes me. However, this is not something I just thought about off the top of head, I have been with this idea from my early twenties which means for over 60 years. (Continuing)

  182. Larry says:

    I mistakenly posted this on the earlier page. I figure why not post it on the current page too.

    Readers of this blog will be interested to know that the current issue of the New Scientist magazine has a review of the book “The Strange Order of Things: Life, feeling, and the making of cultures by Antoniao Damasio”.

    To give you a feel for the tone of the book review, here are a couple of quotes from it:

    “Antonio Damasio is a professor of neuroscience, psychology and philosophy at the University of Southern California, and he has a profound answer to this so-called hard problem of consciousness. In ‘The Strange Order of Things’, he argues that brains don’t produce consciousness on their own. Rather, brains and bodies work together: feelings, subjectivity and consciousness emerge from their interactions.”

    “…says Damasio: ‘Feelings have not been given the credit they deserve.’”

    “Damasio’s views have always been controversial because he insists that we can’t understand consciousness by only looking at how the brain interacts with the world outside ourselves; we have to include the world within us too. This is ‘commonly ignored to the peril of realistic conceptions of general physiology and congnition’, he writes.”

    A flickering light of awareness grows stronger. The fossilized thinking of the old guard slowly gives way to new ideas and understanding. Maybe in another generation they will discover Janov and Primal. I’m grateful for the sake of my life that I had the opportunity to be in this therapy riding the wave far ahead of the curve.

  183. Otto Codingian says:

    this one still makes me cry. Devo – “Beautiful World”

  184. Otto Codingian says:

    there is no hope for us

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Maybe in one sense you’re correct. Certainly the unutterable goings on in the White House and now Bolton to top it all off, should be rattling all the peoples of the planet.

      Maybe we’re too ‘numbed out” Least-ways most of us.

      My take on you is that you are far from ‘numbed out’ and you display it so clearly in your very short and succinct comments. It may seem daunting Qtto, but I see your tears as your sanity.


  185. Otto Codingian says:

    dicks trump and bolton will finally cure us all of our miseries

  186. Otto Codingian says:


  187. Jack Waddington says:

    To Sylvia: a continuation:
    It all started after I went to a lecture in London where the subject matter was: :The myths of democracy”. I walked out of the lecture at then end of it thinking that it had been a waste of time, dismissing the whole notion and thinking, it would just be ‘utter chaos’. BUT the whole thing kept buzzing around my head and I couldn’t let it go. At the time I had no idea why, though I now feel/think I know why.

    One of the matters that came up was:- we all afraid of chaos and are forever seeking order, little realizing that we live in total chaos. The weather is chaotic, our health is chaotic, the traffic is chaotic, government is chaotic, national borders are chaotic, pedestrian-ism is chaotic, relationships are chaotic, yet none of these things seem to be that frightening.

    Then some months later I saw a book entitled “Anarchy” and was intrigued, so I bought it and read it. It touched on something inside me, so! I began to read more. The word Anarchy means:- “without hierarchy” though it’s more often considered synonymous with chaos … We are all equal, and no-one person is better, greater, nobler, or more fit to rule over any other person or persons and that includes ones children. All this is not some Idea I dreamed up. The idea began to formulate by some deep social thinkers way back in the early 19th century. I began to read some of them. I even met another Primal person that was also an anarchist. A story I have related in the past

    What it all ‘boils down to’ is that it is a “Conceptual leap”, “mind break through”, OR “seeing outside the box”. Isn’t this something that happened to most of us entering Primal Therapy?

    I have been critiqued for my idea on this by many, starting with my own father and even on this blog and one person suggested that there’s be so many criminals and rapists. My reply is:- that is what wed have now … AND … perhaps money is the root cause of all criminality and even rape. On ‘first blink’ that is what I sense everyone thinks. It takes some real deep thinking to get ones ‘head around” the notion … rather that the normal 2 seconds to dismiss the idea out of hand.

    So the question to myself is:- WHY do I so wish to promote this idea on this blog ……….. I’m working on that one, and ‘bye the way’ I did write a book about it and am thinking of a sequel.


    • Tim says:

      You seem to be living in a completely different world to mine.
      In my world the weather is not chaotic; we understand to a great extent how it works, starting with the rotation of the earth. It might be difficult to predict exactly, although these days with the help of satellites and computers meteorologists are getting better and better. But unpredictability is not chaos. I mean, right now it is a lovely day, the air is fresh and the sun is shining. I can guarantee you that it won’t suddenly start snowing.
      The same probably applies to our health.
      Traffic is, of course, very organized. We drive on a particular side of the street to avoid people driving in the other direction. The roads are full of lines to show us where to drive; stop signs, traffic signals, speed limits. All far from chaotic.
      Government is very organized involving all manner of rules and conventions.
      National borders chaotic?
      Maybe i’m weird, but I enjoy having relationships with people I can count on to give me support when I need it and a friendly greeting when I meet them. Living with someone who behaved in a random, chaotic fashion, glad to see me one moment, spitting hatred at me the next, would be very disturbing.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Tim: I agree, you and I live in completely different worlds. You live your life between doing your business in an office there in LA, then go home to your family the other side of the Sepulveda Pass … whereas I live here in southern part of rural Netherlands, retired and ‘sitting back’. Then the final one being; that I see life for us humans from a completely differing perspective … apparently.

        I am not attempting to change your perspective merely trying to let you and other see mine.
        Life as I’ve experienced it in my 85 years is one where I attempt to stay in the feeling zone. I dislike all the restriction that have I have been bound by. I may not be able to change a great deal of it, but that does not prevent me from trying. I am merely attempting to put forward an idea that has been around for over 175 years by people who’s minds I admire, and though I questioned them initially I now see they were great and deep thinkers. Where I disagree with some of them is the method they proffered for the transition.

        Your suggesting that through meteorology that the weather is therefore not chaotic defies what is meant by chaos. The antithesis of chaos is order. As I see it we humans have been endeavoring for eons to make order out of the chaos we saw/see around us; rather than to live-with and accept it. I contend it has not worked out for the species we are. I contend further we have not yet got to any real sense of order. Just looking at the current situations, killings and devastation around the planet, and especially in Washington, it appears as if we might just ruin the planet and human life and perhaps all life forms on the planet. If that’s OK by you … no problem, but it is, for reasons perhaps going back to my early childhood, for me.


  188. sylvia says:

    Good luck with your question to yourself. We all have those to work on. That’s therapy for all of us. Maybe it has to do with the need to persuade–quien sabe.

  189. Otto Codingian says:


  190. Phil says:

    I have been making my family tree on an ancestry website. It’s been really grabbing my attention and has been more interesting lately than some other things I usually do. There is a lot of information available on the internet. Records about birth, death, marriage, place of residence, and arrival to this country, among other things. I have really filled in a lot of facts and details about my background, adding to what I already knew. On my mothers side so many people came from a certain town in Italy, around the beginning of the 20th century, to settle in a town in Connecticut, where I’m from. They lived all neighboring each other with large families, and married mostly only other people who came from that same place in Italy. Italian first names were anglicized and last names misspelled which makes it difficult to get everything straight. It’s so very clear how Italian Americans liked to create cohesive communities of many family members just like it must have been back in Italy. Some day I should definitely take a trip there to see it.
    I have also been investigated my fathers side, but there seems to be less I can uncover with that.
    I have already spent many hours on all of this. I may get other family members involved and when I’m done, I can save it and show it to my sons.
    It has also brought up feelings as I realized where I’m really missing information is about my own mother, and I have no doubt that is what’s motivating me.
    But I have been remembering her a little better lately. Today I had some sad feelings
    remembering something which I can really say was something positive. I remember a very exciting
    time when I was about 4 or 5. My father had bought us a guinea pig as a pet. It was pregnant
    and gave birth to a whole bunch of little piglets, every one of which we named. I remember being
    very excited about all of this, telling my mother about it, and bringing them up from where we
    kept them in the basement to show her. I think I did have her attention about this and she
    let me express my excitement.

    • sylvia says:

      Wow, Phil. Good memory. Isn’t it something that we can recall those things and the enthusiasm we had at that time. You traveled back some 50 years in time to the original feeling and memory. I do get a flash sometimes of the blue peddle-pushers I wore about that age and how I felt to be little.

  191. Margaret says:

    that sounds like an important breakthrough.

  192. Renee S. says:

    Happy Birthday, Gretchen. Hope you’re having a good one!

  193. Thanks Renee! As I write I’m making my way through a giant bag of every sweet known to man that Rick dropped off. My “MO” is a bite out of everything till I settle on the one! I then intend to roll on out of here for an outing with Barry! Thanks for thinking of me and I look forward to hearing about your trip! Gretch

  194. Phil says:

    Gretchen, Happy Birthday!!! I hope you have a great time going out with Barry.


  195. Miguel says:

    Happy birthday Gretchen. Congratulations

  196. Margaret says:

    happy Birthday!
    a funny thought, ha ha, now a giant bag of goodies with some of them missing a nibble…

  197. Renee says:

    Gretchen, around how many bites did you have to take until you found one to settle on? And how did you know that you had found “the one” and that it was time settle? Any second thoughts or do you feel you made the right decision?

    • marshallhuffman says:

      Renee, that’s a clever way to ask that question. I have my own version.

      @ Gretchen, what do you do if you’d never had candy before and committed to the first piece you ever bit into once you finally were allowed to have candy? And it is good candy, but you can’t help but wonder if there’s other, better candy out there, especially because your candy doesn’t taste like you’d hoped it would, even though it’s still really good? And you’re having intrusive thoughts about other candy any time you have a good feeling about the candy you’re with? And your candy is triggering you so hard that you think about ending it just to make the suffering stop? What if you feel that maybe three months ago you realized you couldn’t handle not having your candy in your life and maybe that’s why you’re freaking out now? And you wonder if it would be possible to eat candy that made you feel just as good but didn’t make you miserable too?

      What are you going to do?

      • marshallhuffman says:

        Sorry, I meant to post that’s it’s own post and not a direct reply to yours. Don’t want to seem like I’m hijacking.

  198. Margaret says:

    I am curious as well about your trip!

  199. Renee says:

    Margaret and Gretchen, my trip to South Africa was amazingly successful. In just under two weeks, I visited 16 schools and met with 2 university professors. Almost all were interested in, and very fascinated by, my research, which will consist of interviewing teachers and students (and possibly having some focus groups) regarding creating spaces for youth to experience democracy in their schools. 14 out 16 school principals said yes to my conducting research in their schools next year. I showed them this video that I will likely use when I do my research: None of them knew that education could look like this and had many interesting reactions and questions. I sensed a longing from many of them for freedom and democracy in their schools, which are constrained by both the British colonial school system as well as neoliberalism. I did not know beforehand what, if any, interest there would be for my study. I feel excited and energized to know just how much interest there is.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: I am very pleased that you had “an amazingly successful trip to South Africa” and the work you did there. I looked at the video you posted. Very interesting, but I had a few reservations when it came to democratiing the education system.
      I have long been a great fan of A. S. Neil and have some of his books and knew a person that attended Summerhill. Why I had the reservation is that I have long questioned the need for education altogether. My take:- has been for sometime; do we actually need to educated in the first placed????? … Learning is natural normal and simple … It’s teaching that is complicated and convoluted. In the end, for all that being taught in my schooling; was it necessary for the living of my life. Interesting yes! … after my first terrors of being left by my mother when I first went to school, I actually enjoyed class. Playtime (recess) and some other things were often worrisome, as most other boys always seemed to want to get into fights with me that I hated. Schools are:- ‘prisons for children’.
      One last point is about Stephen Hawking, who recently died. Poor guy for all his (so called brilliance in matters of “The Big Bang” theory), the poor guy spent most of his adult life in a wheel chair and eventually unable to speak. Was it worth is Stephen? I ask.

      BUT for all that learning of English and European history, geography, maths, and all the sciences, yet never being taught about all those other aspects of ‘the real life’. I just learned them simply and naturally … after leaving school.

      Why I question it all is because it’s all a follow-up to “earning a living”. Do we really need to EARN a living. I feel/think I was born alive … ‘thank godo’ and there-on-in just needed to feel it and express it as time progresses. “Period, end”.


    • Phil says:

      Renee, That is fantastic about the success of your trip and all that interest in free schools. I spent a few years working on a career transition to teaching and I found that the main problem for me was going to be controlling the students. That wasn’t working for me so I gave it up. If anything, our schools nowadays have less freedom and many more rules than when I was a kid.. I guess partially for safety reasons the location of all students has to be known at all times. When I was in high school we were treated more like young adults who could make choices, although it wasn’t democratic, there were far fewer rules.
      My kids attended the high school where my wife works as a teacher and from what I hear there’s a lot of pressure. Everyone wants something different and little attention is given to what students might want. Students are taught many things which they never end up needing or using. Administrators, teachers, and parents all want certain things, but the kids don’t have a say in it.,

      • Phil says:

        One thing we do have in our school district is an “alternative” high school. It’s meant for kids who don’t do well in the regular high school environment for whatever reason Things are set up differently, classes are smaller and there’s much more flexibility. It’s a great for kids who are feeling lost socially in the regular schools or who are having other problems. I don’t know how democratic it is for the students, but It has been a success, and has survived many budget cuts. It might be a model for how free schools can be introduced.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil: there is a growing consensus that the education system in many counties especially the United States, that it’s not producing what is hoped it might/ought to produce. I feel the reasons are many; starting with the very notion; the NEED to educate.
        By definition the need to educate suggests; others do the deciding, and not the ones being educated. It is my feeling that the kids of the present are becoming more and more cognoscente of this, and in their own way are rebelling. I don’t think they know exactly what is wrong … just that is feels wrong.

        I contend (as ever) there needs to be an attempt to “look outside the box”. That box that we all of us got trapped into … namely neurosis. Further it necessitates that it it is done collectively, and not by the so called experts.


        • Phil says:

          There’s a lot of questions to think about with this. If kids are not educated will they be able to take care of themselves and be happy as adults? At what age should they be able to decide or have a vote on their education? What if they don’t learn how to read, write, and do basic math, is that OK?


          • Jack Waddington says:

            Phil: I agree; there is a great deal to think about here on this question. So much so that I feel most don’t want to spend the time to REALLY think about it. If kids are going to vote they are well able to vote with their feet. As for learning to write!!!! the most complex thing children learn LONG before going to school is their language … to speak … albeit that it is very rudimentary. Learning to read and write is relatively simple IF left to their own devices. Equally maths; since we early humans had to devise all these practices. All this is hard to demonstrate, since children are laboriously taught to read and write in 1st grade or soon thereafter. I remember being at that age of learning to read and can see the very book I had to learn from very vividly. It was not until I was in the equivalent of 4th grade that I began to catch on. That means I was already 8 y/o. I feel that short lessons from my mother or dad could have achieved all that, since I did show an interest, seeing my dad read the newspaper.

            Let’s step back for a moment in evolutionary time. Long before there was language as we know it and certainly long before we became civilized (that I contend is anything BUT, what we actually deem “Civil”). There was no such thing as schools … when learning was a natural, normal and a simple device that we knew how to use instinctively. If you are willing and able to take your thinking back to that time, then work it all forward in an evolutionary manner; it was from that time we developed into what we are now. So! was that developmental process linear, and/or were there bumps and plateaus in the process?? (continuing)

            • Jack Waddington says:

              My take is:- that at some moment in evolutionary time, when we humans took a major leap into becoming “neurotic”. How when and where has not as yet been evaluated, though Bernard Campbell, a professor of anthropology at Cambridge University in the UK, did proffer an explanation. He and his wife both did Primal therapy in the very early days. Their son, I understand, is now a senior therapist at The Primal Center. What all this suggests to me, is that much of our rites, rituals and thinking is based on “neurosis”, and is NOT NATURAL to the creature we are now.

              So all those questions we all seem to take for granted, I now see; are questionable. If Primal theory is correct (and I believe it is) then there is the need to question many of our current notions of “WHAT IS”. I feel certain that Tim’s comment to me a few days ago where he suggested that I was in a different world; he’s correct. From the very early days of my therapy I was intrigued by the ‘IMPLICATIONS’ of Primal theory and as such wrote my first book upon that very premise. What I was actually searching for was “What is the Real” and “What is the Unreal” me. I therefore needed to question every pre-conceived notion about everything; religion, culture, sexuality, love, thinking, education, sport, art, science, medicine, psychology, economics, politics and philosophy. It took 25 years of notes, writing and re-writing to bring it about. There was no-one I could collaborate with. So Yes! I’m in a different world.


              P.S. should anyone be interested in my book I will send them, for free, an e-copy of it if they provide me with an email address.

  200. Marshall, Sometimes the first candy can be the right one actually. You might also need to consider that your misery is your misery whatever choice you make. You are the common denominator. I tend to think you have to continue looking inward and the rest will become clear in time. In other words it’s not about the candy it’s about you. Gretch

    • marshallhuffman says:

      Thanks Gretchen. That’s increasingly my feeling, I think. That the pain/problem is me. But the hope continues, you know?

      During the rare, rare, rare, moment when the wrestling in my head stops the issue of “what to do” vanishes entirely and all there is is horrible anxiety. The worst anxiety I’ve ever experienced. Even if my candy is the right candy, I look at her sometimes and think about ripping her out of my life just to make it stop. 😦 Crying offers some relief when it comes, but it’s short lived and then the suffering starts all over again.

      I wonder sometimes why I subject myself to this therapy. Barry once told me that if he had known what awaited him in therapy when he signed up back in the day that he never, ever would have done it. I absolutely get what he means.

  201. Renee, No I don’t feel I settled and somehow I think you just know. Personally I don’t think we need so many bites to decide on what we want. My most recent theory is I take a bite out of several to lay claim. An effective method I think. 🙂 Gretch

  202. Renee, I love the video and I’m so glad to hear your trip was such a success. It’s reassuring to think so many were open to the idea of a democratic system within their schools. Maybe some are beginning to recognize the existing system is not really working, at least not for all the children. You must be very excited, I am! Gretch

  203. Thanks to all of you for the very sweet and thoughtful birthday wishes! Gretch

  204. Renee says:

    Marshall, our respective (and very stereotypically gendered) questions reminded me of the saying, “Women need one candy to satisfy all their needs. Men need many candies to satisfy one need”:) That said, I’m glad you shared your questions and the underlying pain that created those questions.

  205. Renee says:

    Gretchen, actually you referred to settling, not me. I was simply using your word. Btw, I’m puzzled by your theory….why would you need to lay claim to your own birthday present? Isn’t it already yours? Nevertheless, you suggest that this is an effective method. So are you saying that if I want to find ‘the one’, then I need to be biting several possibilities, but not too many, to lay claim to them? Just clarifying. I am always open to creative and innovative ideas in this area.:)

    I had a feeling that you would like the video. You are right, there is a recognition that the system is not working. And yes, I am excited. As you know, I am very passionate about this subject.

  206. Jack Waddington says:

    The discussion: Renee brought up about “bites” has been something I put a great deal of thought into over the years starting way before I knew of Primal.

    My take; for what it is worth (perhaps very little) is that, IF from early childhood we were allowed to freely express our love and desires, then when we got older and felt the need to leave ‘the nest’ and settle with someone; we’d have enough prior experience about others and what we wanted and needed from others; there would never arise a situation that is being discussed with “bites”.

    The notion of “the grass being greener” is a factor ranging from doubt about choices we make or didn’t make. What I’ve discovered from my contemplation on all of these matters, is that once I’ve made a choice, I need to follow that choice through to it’s inevitable end. That end could be death, or something before death. Did I make the right choice leaving the US and settling in the Netherlands? the question for me now is:- “It’s irrelevant” and not worth the energy to contemplate the “what if’s”. I made THIS choice and I will take whatever consequences of it, and where it leads me to.


  207. Margaret says:

    thanks for sharing the video.
    you must have been very busy during your visit, so glad to hear you can go back next year to continue.
    in the video they mention the free school is not ideal for all kinds of students, I am curious as to hear to which ones it is more and to which ones less so.

  208. Renee says:

    Margaret, your question is an interesting one. From my experience, I would say that free schools work for most students. But there were exceptions. When I worked at Summerhill, there was a student who was asked/told to leave. His needs and behavior were having too much of a negative impact on the community over a long period of time. And I had an 8-year-old there who couldn’t get settled because he would get letters from his mother describing how well his younger brother was doing. When I worked at Play Mountain Place, sometimes some of the elementary students struggled when they were getting pressure from their parents to focus more on academics when they were at school. And I know a professor whose expertise is in democratic education and unschooling. His young daughter decided, after trying different schools, that she wanted to be in a regular school. He didn’t understand why but he supported her decision. By the way, I’m wondering how you were able to watch the video with your eyesight. Is there as special program you use, or do you focus on the audio?

  209. Renee says:

    Jack, I agree with you that learning is “natural, normal and simple”. I would argue that this idea is fundamental to all democratic/free schools. When you use the term “education”, how are you defining it? I get the sense that you might be using education and traditional schooling interchangeably. But, to me, they are fundamentally different. I think the student in the video I posted summed up the difference when she said that, “here you have to figure out who you are as a person”. A very different view of education from what is usually considered education. I think you might be advocating for unschooling, whereby just the structure of a school building for kids is seen as oppressive. Well, maybe. But if the parents doing the unschooling of their kids are intrusive/over-involved/too suggestive of activities, as some are, I would probably choose a school. By the way, I think you misunderstood my research. It is not to advocate for democratizing any education system. I don’t feel that is possible. With very few exceptions, all democratic schools exist outside of any system/institution. They have to be, imo. All institutions within any society have to support the underlying economic structure. And our system of Capitalism is based on domination, oppression, and unequal power relations. Most of us learn and internalize this from a young age, within our families, our schools, our religious institutions, the media etc. What do you think?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: I do have confession. I remember now, that you did tell me you worked at Summerhill, but meantime I’d forgotten … So, sorry for anything I wrote that might have suggested you did not know about A.S. Neil and his school. Nevertheless, I do admire your work, and I liked your response

      Your last line “What do you think?” …. be carefull; as that’s like holding a red flag to a bull 🙂 🙂
      The question you ask about my sense of what is ‘education’. I mean it in the very broadest sense of all forms of teaching … be it home schooling, all the way to the freest of schools. I don’t mean it, in the way that watching someone perform a task and then picking up how to do it.
      That is the way most other creatures learn from their parents. We humans refer to that process as “being taught”. It’s one of the factors we human use:- relating it to how we humans do things, then attaching the same word, to other creature behaviours.

      One other question you brought up was the “disruptive child” If I remember rightly, Neil himself in one of his books told how he dealt with a disruptive child … brilliantly IMO. He apparently saw that it related in someway to the family pet dog, getting all the attention and from what I remember he asked the disruptive kid to tell him all about the dog. Then, I gather, if the kid again started to be disruptive he reminded him about the dog, using it’s name. That to me was Neil’s brilliance. Sort of Primal in a way. I may not have the story completely right … if so, I stand to be corrected

      I totally agree with you about our ‘capitalist system’ being all about “domination, oppression, and unequal power relations” and I would add all our other neurotic features. It’s for that reason that I see the one and only real solution to be the abolishing of all forms of control, money being the greatest, and all other forms of exchange. Meantime … there I go again………..!!!!!!! 😦 😦


  210. Renee says:

    Thanks, Phil. I agree with all your observations. Well said!

  211. Margaret says:

    I focused on the audio.
    i guess parents are the first ones to have a big influence on their kids and can impact their attitude towards learning.
    my mom was a Montessori nursery school teacher, and I also had a 3 year older brother.
    these two factors added to being very early in being able to read as I folowed her helping him eagerly.
    I must say I mostly enjoyed school and learning.
    there were some courses like history and geography and maths especially which were not really my center of interest and skill, but on the other hand I am glad I was nevertheless ‘forced’ to learn about it to add to my general knowledge about the world.
    but of course all of that is just my own personal history and i have no good idea of how a free school works.
    one thing that puzzles me is how you can choose your own classes when to start you have little idea of what exists.
    that problem impacted my own life negatively when having to start university, I did not have a clue really and made the wrong choices and then messed up for other reasons.
    probably there must be some basic structure also in free education as to inform the students of the options.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: You asked the question how would the student know which classes to attend. Simply by going into the class and if the student wasn’t inspired, he/she would simply walk out.

      Total freedom is the freedom to investigate; then make a decision.


  212. Phil says:

    We are considering taking a vacation to Cuba this summer. I got the idea because my wife is prohibiting me from going to Spain this year, which is probably a good idea because that’s a source of big issues between us. A trip to Cuba could be especially interesting because it’s relatively unspoiled by American companies. Travel there is possible for Americans only for approved reasons and tourism isn’t one of them. The most popular approved reason is “support for the Cuban people”.
    Support could mean talking to them about democracy and freedom, and spending money to support private companies. Apparently it isn’t hard to do things considered supporting the Cuban people
    We wouldn’t want to suggest anything like abolishing money as that would be a red flag. Visiting Fidel Castro’s tomb probably wouldn’t be a good idea either.
    Of course I would be able to practice my Spanish there as well. We haven’t finalized any plans yet but I’m excited by the idea.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: that sounds like a good idea to go to Cuba, and in it’s early days under Fidel it showed great promise compared to other Communist regimes.
      I doubt that mentioning abolishing money would be a red flag. it would be great for keeping up your Spanish. I wish you well, if you decide to go.


    • Larry says:

      That’s great.

  213. Margaret says:

    no problem, I can relate…

  214. Renee says:

    Jack, in response your view that education is about teaching, and Margaret, in response to your question about how you can choose your own classes when you have little idea of what exists, I would recommend this link (if you can understand Scottish😊): I tend to agree with Neill’s idea of education having little to do with either teaching or attending classes. I’m curious to know what you think.

    I will always be grateful to Vivian for mentioning Summerhill in a chapter she wrote in The Feeling Child. That’s how I heard about it. I don’t even think that she said what Summerhill was, but she wrote about Neill rewarding kids who stole……an idea that I had to find out more about, since it sounded so crazy.

    Gretchen, could you ask Rick if he would write an article for the blog, sharing his memories of visiting Summerhill, why he chose a free school in northern California instead, and what his experience there was like? I’m sure it would be quite interesting.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: great video. I watched it all, and will look at it several more times.
      I not only understand the Scottish ascent. but I can even speak the dialect. I did have to enable the Captions to get the whole of what he was saying and what was being asked of him.
      I was quite surprised by the amount of smoking he did, during the whole session.
      I do know that Art and Vivian went over to see him. Sadly, at the time Art was suffering from his throat/speaking problem, and so Vivian was the one that did all the talking.

      I don’t know how much he knew about Art’s work, or whether the Primal notion was put to him. I do feel had he been more aware of it, he might have had more ready answers in that interview. What was so obvious was Neil was one of those thinker who thought “outside the box” especially in his field.

      Meantime, I might come back and make more comments after I’ve looked at it several more times. Also; like the Primal notion, it is clear to me that fundamental/radical notions are slow for the rest of society to ‘catch onto’.
      One thing I did come away with: was feeling more and more re-enforced about my own feelings, ideas and solution to the human dilemma.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Addendum: The shear brilliance of Neil to reward the kid that stole … with a “bob” (English English for a shilling … 12 pennies). It tuns the whole world justice system on it’s head; OR my take: “Punishment” is NEVER the answer, and resolves nothing.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: quote:- “Gretchen, could you ask Rick if ……….”.
      I too would be interested in know how Rick Janov is doing. He was my therapist for a time and l liked him a lot as my therapist.

      I thought it was a great shame that he had to relinquish his license, just because he fell for a very amazing girl. What had all that to do, in terms if his licence???????

      The stupidity of laws and law making. To quote Charles Dickens, “The law is an ASS”


  215. Renee says:

    Jack, I’m glad that you liked that video and can understand and speak the language. I think I prefer this one, as his Scottish is not so pronounced and he is more succinct:

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: Yes I did like it, and have viewed it a second time. I’ll maybe view it again soon.

      I don’t speak the real Scottish, Gaelic language, I only speak the dialect of the Scots speaking English. “Peer wee laddie mi mither winna gime onymore, shi sas it maks me grow outta mi close”
      translates to:- .”Poor little lad, ‘My mother will not give me anymore, she says it makes me grow out of my clothes’ “.

      I’ll be viewing the other soon and will respond.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: Just now viewed the second link you gave. It merely re-enforced the first one, but nevertheless was great for me to see. In a strange sort of way he comes across as a precursor to Janov. I am not sure if Art knew of him and his wok, before his breakthrough, or not.

      In my own conceited way, I feel part of the lineage from Neill to Janov and myself. and in the second video you listed; that came across more than ever for me, It was almost like he was going to say:- “it’s all about the stupidity of money”. He didn’t quite say that, but he came very close IMO.

      He sure was ‘bucking’ the system.


  216. Margaret says:

    I am feeling down, Easter holidays starting, everyone going away..
    all my neighbors gone, the 7 from the ground floor and the 2 from above, never imagined I’d miss them. street very silent, school next door closed, friends gone to meet other friends and relatives…
    feel lonely…
    a driver volunteer and me talked on a ride about our muscle and joint aches, and he mentioned he had medication he could not use, some kind of paracetamol, possibly with codeine, which he offered to give me if I could use it for my very sore neck.
    I kind of looked forward to that unexpected ‘treat’, after a long time without, and with daily neck pains and having to wait two more weeks to go to chiropractor.
    now it turned out it is simply paracetamol in a higher dose, sigh, not the end of the world but all of this has triggered some of my longing for the soothing break of tension and anxiety.
    but hey, I could have called my doctor’s office and order a prescription but I did not do it, which is good. but I still feel pretty down.
    it helped a bit to send an e-mail to try to make an appointment to go tango dancing next week, at least I took some possible initiative, not much else I can come up with right now.
    there will be the first sailing event then as well, but the weather forecast for next week so far says rain and no wind and chilly…

    also joined a local contact site, very local, my own neighborhood and nothing else, with chat and other options to look for example for a babysitter or someone with a ladder, or whatever.
    it is a great initiative but it is frustrating the thing is so hard to navigate on.
    I posted a few messages but so far haven’t figured out how to get to possible replies, sigh, which adds to my feeling of hopelessness and discouragement.

    no one to meet with until Tuesday, so only option is to take care of myself, clean, cook, play with cats, study, read, do exercise, and who knows, maybe go out for coffee but then risk to come back more discouraged and lonely.
    will have to sit these days out until activities catch up again, also plan to join a dating site, ha, even while i fear I might need someone to assist me to see whether there is some response, and to check out from who…

    yeah, gloomy, but I catch a tiny half smile while I write this.
    the rare moments the sun appears all seems better, but so far we have had a lousy year, cold and cloudy and now also often wet…
    moan moan, time to create myself some blessings to count, add them up to the two furry blessings racing around and try to keep moving in what is hopefully forwards…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: sorry to hear you are feeling so down. I hope it passes soon. You’re doing the nest thing (as I know you know) by writing it all down here.

      Take care. Jack

    • Larry says:

      I understand gloomy Margaret. I spent today contentedly preparing for a photography trip tomorrow with a buddy, yet I’ve been crying throughout the day. I’m seeing more reality about my entire life that I thought I could never face.

      It’s amazing how when you chip away at the facade, month after month, year after year, eventually it crumbles and the truth laid bare comes into consciousness with more sadness and pain than I ever thought I could endure. Burdened by all that pain no wonder it’s been so difficult to make my life work the way I wanted it and needed it to.

      And then where do I go from here, with this new consciousness that I shut down when I was 2 and is now coming to life, awakening to life-squelching painful, frighteningly lonely truth? The only course is to risk life, and in so doing discover again and again that there are no parents for me where there should have been.

      Accepting truth is healing, but I’m still not done. There is more. As far as I’ve come in this therapy, as deep as I feel I’ve gone so far, little by little being reborn after each primal, I feel I’m only scratching the surface of the pain that still remains.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: Just reading your comment and knowing you, brought tears top my eyes, Even as I write this response to you the tears are flowing. It so unutterably sad

        My sense of you is that your are doing far far more than “only scratching the surface of the pain that still remains”.

        Have a great trip tomorrow Larry with your photography buddy.


  217. Phil says:

    Sorry you are feeling down, I hope you feel better soon.


  218. Phil says:

    Renee, I watched a good part of the first video link. I could catch most of what he said, he comes across as a real character, or maybe it’s just that accent. One thing I was wondering is that Summerhill is mostly a boarding school, and that experience is a traumatic one for many kids, it seems. Even at such a special school, there is that separation from parents.
    Of course, it depends on the age. I looked at the website and saw that at least some of the kids are day students.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: I thought about that also, and the only thing I remember in that first video was Neill actually answered, something to the effect, it was better to leave a dysfunctional family and enter a freer environment.

      I do feel that a child from a loving home would get to make the call about going to a boarding school when he/she was ready.


  219. Phil says:

    I had a dream the other day which seemed significant. In the dream I was at group, which was being run by Gretchen. Except I wasn’t supposed to be there because I hadn’t signed up for it or something, so I felt like I should be leaving, that I didn’t belong. I definitely needed to be leaving although no one was saying so. But I had put down my glasses on a table somewhere and couldn’t find them, so I couldn’t leave. There seemed to be a lot of glasses, but none of them were mine. I never did join in with that group, I was on my out. I don’t know what I was doing there to begin with.
    I think the dream has to do with how difficult it is for me to feel like I belong anywhere. Also how I struggle with that.
    It’s my mother who had me feeling that way. The last years with her she didn’t seem to even remember I was her child, she didn’t remember or notice me.

    • Larry says:

      Lots of feelings there Phil.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Very revealing dream, and it seems like you got the connection.

      This therapy is so incredible. I just wished more people were able to get it.

      Better still, I just wished we humans were better able to love and take care of our young.


  220. Margaret says:

    Larry and Jack,
    thanks for the reply and support.
    I did confirm to go along on a tango dance event next week sunday, which makes these very quiet days more like enjoyably peaceful than unpleasantly empty.
    doing chores and reading and preparing meals also helps not to get stuck. specially while reading I can get triggered into tears, and my dreams are still very active, lately i had two dreams I cried in saying to someone ‘you are honest to me!’, a surprising feeling, strong as well, indicating there was too much phoniness and craziness in my childhood.
    also more dreams about guys with guns and having to escape places, possibly going back to the weeks I was put in some institute at the age of 2 while mommy was in hospital.
    threatening unfamiliar hostile environment all of a sudden, making me feel unsafe and lost, hm, writing this down is an unexpected trigger, small but definitely indicating my intuition goes in the right direction.
    my brother’s cat has cancer, and the upcoming death and goodbye with all its unavoidable grief and pain and irreversibility also triggers me and I feel concerned about my brother as well.
    mom sweet but getting older, one of her friends at the nursing home just passed away, leaving his 94 year old partner, a long term girlfriend of my mom, behind.
    he was 99, a very nice and smart man still, but now, when ill, wanting to go, and gone..
    feeling the sadness of losing loved ones forever, leaving an empty spot behind together with their memories.

  221. Margaret says:

    Thanks Phil
    it helped a bit I could sit in the sun for a while this morning before it
    disappeared behind the clouds. it also helped to read some great columns of Midas Dekkers, about animals and humans.
    one example, most women do never have a hymen, so they technically can never prove to be a virgin. no animals, except cavias (guinia pigs) have hymens, just like humans at the most a bit of a thicker ring in the vagina, some leftover remains of the growing foetus.
    but hey, cavias do not have a hymen, unless they get pregnant, then theirs grows and closes again, of course until they give birth…
    they are the only pregnant virgins really so to say, smiley…
    I love little bits of knowledge like that, Midas Dekkers is a biologist, and really is so witty and sharp and funny in his writings, if he has been translated to English I can warmly recommend his many books, interesting and making one smile and reflect at the same time.
    that aside, smiley.

  222. Renee says:

    Phil, I actually don’t think that the transition to Summerhill is traumatizing for most kids who go to there. Can the transition be stressful? Yes, but they can have their feelings in an environment that is accepting and approving of them. A big difference from most boarding schools, if you ask me. Also, if I remember correctly, Neill used to take very young kids (4-6 year-olds), but when his wife took over she stopped that, believing that little kids needed to be home with their parents. When I worked there, I had a big group of new kids to the school. They were mostly around 7-9 years old. They came with a lot of anger and aggression from their families and previous schools and many of them were regularly brought up at the meetings for breaking the laws. It was unbelievable to witness these kids, over the course of a year, become mostly settled, calm, friendly, sincere and genuine. I’m not sure I could really have believed that freedom worked, had I not seen it with my own eyes. It was definitely life-changing for me.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Renee: That got to me someow, just giving children the freedom to SIMPLY express themselves. This “freedom” movement, though it’s attached to guns is such a great progressive movement. I maybe should get on to their blog if they have one.

      What I really want to write about is the major lack of freedom I was not allowed to express, was fear … terror. Can’t quite put my finger on it right now and hopefully just writing about it might make it clearer. I was almost in total terror all the time, to the extent that I was known as shy. Yet, even when some lady friend of my granny said to me “Oh, you’re so shy”, I didn’t quite know what ‘shy’ meant. I was not so, towards my granny nor my mother. It certainly had to do with my father. I remember thinking … are all dads like that and assumed it was a male thing; being strict and doling out punishment and laying down the “the law:” as he put it.

      I wonder; would I have been terrified to have gone to a boarding school? I’m not sure and I suspect it would be dependent upon at what age. What I do remember is at age 4, my mother taking me to school for the first time and me pleading and screaming out to my ‘mammy’ “don’t leave me mammy” … but she did.
      I’m now wondering ……………. did I once get angry with my daddy, and was I punished for talking back to him??? There’s some there in that. I’ll try staying with it; for now.


  223. A Nondescript Guru says:

    Hi Larry:
    I just wanted to ask: Would you be averse to my sending you an email shortly? I have an address of yours from years ago, do you still use it in case my contacting you is OK with you?
    If you’d rather not be contacted, no pressure or hard feelings on my part.

  224. Margaret says:

    another little jewel of a column from Midas Dekkers, first about how bee hives and their relentless and uncriticizing serving of the bee queen serving as a prime example for some authors to educate the English common people. then he shifts to ants, and how Karl Marx would have found a far better audience among the ten million billion ants, whose weight is larger than the total weight of the human species on earth.
    but alas, we humans are far less social than bees and ants, emphasizing individual values highly…
    private thoughts, free will, of uttermost importance, unless of course people can appear in a television program..
    even just forming part of an audience, we laugh and applaude when the floormanager raises a sign..
    but as biologists know, healthy stock needs to be able to regularly respond ‘get lost!’

  225. Margaret says:

    how are you doing?

  226. Margaret says:

    another Midas Dekkers bit of funny wisdom:
    every day we lose 10 billion cells from our skin, which reniews its surface every three weeks. those tiny scabs drop off and float away, and form 90 percent of the dust on top of our wardrobes…
    the bags of our vacuum cleaners contain mostly parts of us and our roommates, human and otherwise…
    tissue in stomach and bowels gets renewed every two days.
    only muscle and nerve cells mostly remain the same old.
    babies are made out of 90 percent of water, while the elderly have to do with only 50 percent, therefor the wrinkles. and therefor they contain much more toxic waste products, in the lab their old tissue even afects young tissue slowing down its growth.
    and then we die and all ashes return to ashes instead of at a rate of 10 billion a day as daily dust…

    • sylvia says:

      I am fine Margaret, though I’m thinking I will have to drink more water so I won’t be so wrinkly–ha.
      Still have all the cats. Now and again one will not come in at night and I worry about him. Usually he will come in the next day and take a long nap. The 2 boys prefer to be out past dark but do come in, mostly, when I call. The one-year-olds stay on the enclosed back porch safely at night so far are content to be confined there then. I suppose I am the crazy cat lady, but I don’t think the neighbors notice they are busy with their own goings-on. They are younger with kids.
      I’ve been reading the blog with all the interesting things about Summerhill and Renee. What an accomplishment to travel so much and to make a difference in education.

      I was thinking about bees and ants the other day how they seem to get along and in contrast how we humans fight so much. I guess we are more like wolves in our families where everyone knows their place and recognize the dominance of the leaders (parents) of the pack. Too deep for me. Anyway, good weather here in California for now and am wanting to plant some squash in the little bed I’ve dug and hope it will grow with the fertilizer I’ll try. Thanks for the hello, Margaret.

  227. Otto Codingian says:

    i feel bad, as usual. more so. last dog is declining faster than i expected. i am still hanging on to the horror of losing the other pets. that’s it. my pain of being abandoned by my mom and others as a child was triggered big-time this weekend by my wife saying that my son was inviting her to come visit him in ohio again she has only been back here 2 months from her last visit, when she abandoned me at christmas-time. big fight ensued, since we are not the most feeling couple in the world. anyway, the most snarling wolf and stinging bee and annoying ant in the sink pale in comparison to the predatory assholishness of our president. ok, now that is it.

  228. Margaret says:

    just read a fine book, ‘Dani’s story’, by Diane and Bernie Lierow.
    they adopt a girl of 7 into their family, who has lived so far in a filthy room, hardly fed, and not at all cared for by her mother. she spent most time on her own ‘looked after’ by an adolescent brother wit a mental disability.
    she was either naked or in filthy diapers, and never got out of the house that was extremely filthy.
    she got severe disabilities due to the lack of love and stimuli, and the couple was advised not to adopt this child.
    but with a lot of effort they managed to do so, and with a lot of love and patience they got some results no doctor had ever expected to be possible.
    it is a touching and encouraging book about a case that got a lot of publicity and was also an item in Oprah Winfrey’s show.
    a touching experience to read.

  229. Otto Codingian says:

    Cecile Richards was interviewed on Rachel Maddow show tonighjt. “In her new book out Tuesday, Make Trouble: Standing Up, Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead, she recalls that day and many others that required her to be a supreme troublemaker and hellraiser. The part-memoir, part how-to-manual is written with her signature no-nonsense Texas charm and aims to broadly inspire anyone who wants to make a difference. ” Makes me cry, old feeling related to “Speaking Out, and Finding the Courage to Lead”.

  230. Otto Codingian says:

    i had hope around 1990 or so. wife and i were doing pt with roland (not pi). wife had friends in the group. me no friends of course. we went to some school function in ojai for one of wife’s pt friend’s daughter. our kids were 3 and 7, something like that. there was a small reggae band playing in the auditorium at some point and maybe dancing. music like this. Desmond Dekker & The Aces – Israelites (1969) HQ yes i loved that reggae music for years, and then i no longer did. i am living in the past. i had hope back then that my therapy would make life good, but wife lost her job and so we lost pt. so not a lot of hope going on at that point. fuck

  231. Otto Codingian says:

    i had fucking hope and then it was dashed onto the rocks, story of my life. wah.

  232. Margaret says:

    I had to write a script for a motivating interview, or talk, for one of our exercises in groups of three students.
    it had to be more or less about ourselves, a subject in which we could use a motivating talk, and then after the green light from the teacher could send it to our conversation partner to be.
    I chose my vague plan to try a dating agency again, as a subject in a conversation with some assistant who supports me weekly with mostly practical things.
    so the conversation partner got a script for that situation, in which she would be my assistant.
    in the script I wrote how she knows of course I am as good as blind and have poor hearing, but as I wrote to the teacher I could also mention my seropositive status, but was not sure i would do so.
    she replied she would probably not do so herself, but it remained up to me.
    at first I replied to my teacher I would leave it out, but upon rereading the general script it occurred to me I would have to censor myself then on some important parts of the situation, so I ended up changing my mind, and added the entire info to the script, and let my teacher know how I felt.
    I told her I had changed my mind, for the above reason, and also as it felt like a good subject really, which deserves to be more approachable in general.

    I also e-mailed the script to my fellow student, who might get a bit of a scared, hm…
    but well, that is her problem in that case, not mine, I feel kind of proud I took this decision, and actually changed my mind after my first e-mail to my teacher.
    she already found my script a fine one, and I hope she understands my point of view, I feel mostly confident she will.
    I told her I felt if I’d have to censor myself it would diminish the quality of the motivating conversation for both sides, the student with the role of assistant, and my own role in the exercise convesation to come..
    feel like I am sticking out my neck a bit but for a worthwhile cause.

  233. Vicki says:

    I just came across this article about “pain acceptance” in the face of chronic pain, and found it interesting and throught-provoking.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: Interesting article. I have thought for a long time about this very subject when I first read something by Janov stating that killing the pain actually impeded the healing process.

      I have learned more recently to accept some of the pain I encounter; BUT that does not answer the question of pain from incurable maladies. It’s a complex problem that I feel should be answered by the individual going through pain.

      At best; I do feel we should ‘take pause’ at trying to medicate all aches and pains .


  234. Phil says:

    that is an interesting article. My understanding is that other developed countries have a pattern of far fewer prescriptions for opioid pain killers than we do in the US. Doctors in those countries tend to prescribe more of the less effective, non-opioid, type pain killers and patients probably live with more pain than we do here. And that is as it must have been here earlier than about 25 years ago when opioid medications were first pushed so strongly as a general solution for pain. As we’ve discovered, opioids are not necessarily the right solution for all people. That ACT type therapy sounds pretty good.


  235. Otto Codingian says:

    drove through malibu canyon after eating brunch in topanga for z’s birthday. we used to make this trip home from the beach in our wet bathing suits with the kids when they were still very young. my thought was, i never thought that that time of life would be over. it is over, and i was very sad at that thought and was able to relate it to z. i have a bucket of tears in that one. loss loss loss. or getting hit with loss, unawares.

    • Larry says:

      I was touched last week when I first read your post, Otto. I felt sad too that a chunk of life is over way too soon.

  236. Otto Codingian says:


  237. Margaret says:

    I finally went tango dancing again after a long break, maybe even a year.
    there was also the possibility to go sailing today, but I took the best decision as there was little wind.
    I had to force myself a bit, to not cancel, to pick the right cloths and prepare, but once I was on the dance floor it was fun as always.
    time flew by rapidly and I was asked by 7 different people, so that was great for a new start.
    Argentinean tango is a lot of fun as every person leads in a different way and makes his or her own variations, so it is entertaining and always surprising.
    also it has the possibility for very playful and funny moves, apart of the bigger spectacular ones which i like as well.
    so well, it was a fine afternoon and I hope to do it more regularly again, as it is also a great way to meet people and well, it is also a way to be held and to hold others in long ‘graceful hugs’, haha!
    I love the combination of letting go of control and concentrating at the same time, following the lead and letting your body move in the right way, at best both together in a real flow on the music.
    haaa, sigh of contentment…
    and hey, it even was a warm sunny day for a change, and yesterday as well!!!
    yesterday me and my brother went to our mom and did a very nice long walk after her evening meal, also still in a very nice setting sunshine, birds singing all over the place, really nice.

  238. Margaret says:

    is everyone silent or is something wrong with the blog?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: I thought the same, but I am suffering from a terrible cold right now and sneezing all over the [ace and going through boxes of tissues at a rate that only the retreats could better. Jim also is going through the same, but is in a better condition than I am.

      I had breakfast in bed and got up for lunch then went back to bed then got up late afternoon and and still in my dressing gown.

      Hope the morn brings me a better day.

      I don’t need any pity, as Jim is giving me lots of that, but a few boxes of tissues would be gratefully accepted 🙂 🙂


    • Otto Codingian says:


  239. Phil says:

    That’s great you went out dancing, I hope you can do it regularly. The blog has been kind of quiet.

  240. Jack Waddington says:

    Feeling better today … got up and dressed, washed and contact lens put in, had breakfast, and then fell asleep on the sofa while wearing the head phones.
    Am I crazy???? suspect I might be … BUT what the hell.

    Trees are getting their fist leafy buds and spring looks like it might burst into springhood. Yipppeeee.

    Now back to TV to see if WW!!! has started. Geeeeezzzusss!!!!!!!


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Corrections:- “fist” should have read “first”,
      “WW!!!” should have read “WW111”

  241. Margaret says:

    I heard it here on the news, and thought of you as it was clear it was in your part of Canada.
    I also thought of the families and friends of the deceased and wounded and felt bad for them.
    but now forgive me for not watching the video, as I am struggling already to stay on the up side of the scale and function, and to keep seeing the sunny side of life between the hardships of it.
    I feel like I am able to do so but feel too close to the other side to voluntarily add more sorrow for the moment.
    going to visit my mom today takes some balance I have to protect.
    like Phil I feel glad you managed to come out of winter and start socializing again, that trip with a fellow photographer sounds like a nice thing to do, but then when you mentioned driving on in a kind of blizzard the picture got a bit well, ‘rougher, brrrr…
    and Otto, what struck me most in that comment of yours is you were able to share some of your thoughts with your wife, that was nice to hear.
    Phil, yes, the plan is to keep going more or less regularly to dance and add the sailing during the summer season.
    have an exam next week for my present course, and then will take a little break as I need to buy and install a new laptop, which is very scary and challenging. will have some help though, luckily…

    • Larry says:

      Margaret, thank you for your response. It gives me deeper appreciation for what it is like for you to struggle to maintain emotional balance in your life.

  242. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi Everyone: I’ve been in a quandary about posting this mail, plus a WARNING:- anyone that has an aversion to defecation should not continue to read this post. (continuing)

    • Jack Waddington says:

      A dream last night:-
      This is the second time I have had this dream, but last night it was so intensive I knew I needed to somehow get to the bottom of it (seriously: NO PUN intended).
      In the dream I started to defecate in the most bizarre way, and I was not in a place where I was able to get to a bathroom. Suddenly it was all over the place; on my clothes, on the bedding, on the floor and Jim; or someone like him was doing the most almighty OMG. He, like my father, has an adversity to shit I was struggling to make out what was happening to me and what to do about it. It went on for some time, then I woke up.

      Revelation and insights:-
      My first thought was:- what was the feeling in the dream. Strangely, it was not SHAME, nor is it as of this moment of writing, The major feeling was total confusion. I was totally unable to unravel exactly what was confusing me. I’m still in this unutterably confusing feeling.
      Some back ground:-
      According to my mother, she told me the story in my early teens, of when I was only a few months old, on a very cold winters day. One of my fathers ‘fancy lady’ relative, was about to visit us coming from another town. My parents in preparation put me on the ‘potty’ for one whole hour before the impending time of the visit, doing all the “ohhing” and “gooing” that parents do, to invoke a child to defecate. Nothing seemingly, got me to do it.

      Then suddenly the visitor all dressed in a full length fur coat and fur gloves, passed the window, my father ran to open the door, my mother pulled up my little panties, the lady all cooing and smiling came over to my mother to put me in her arms saying “Oh the little darlin”.
      Suddenly she was covered from arms to foot in shit. According to my mother, my father spent the rest of the three hour visit attempting to clean her fur coat and gloves, and he was so ashamed and embarrassed.
      It never occurred to me, at the time of my mother telling me that story, to ask what was happening to me.

      I’m tempted to feel the dream is directly connected to that event. I’m still not sure why I feel the need to write about it, other than there might be an element of ‘shame’ somewhere buried in it, that I need to explore.


      • sylvia says:

        Jack, I don’t know what your dream means either, but pardon my objectivity, I just had to laugh a bit at the whole upset of your dad and the debacle of the refined relative in a soiled fur coat. Something out of a teen-comedy movie, almost.
        I dreamed this morning a big bear was sleeping next to me and was being non-threatening and nice but I didn’t know if it would stay that way. Have no idea what it means.

    • Otto Codingian says:

      well, it happens, you know

  243. Margaret says:

    I just finished a lovely book, ‘Marley and me’ by John Grogan.
    it is a book about his yellow Labrador retriever and his 13 years as a member of his family.
    it is hilarious at times but also very touching.
    when I arrived at the part where he has become so old and ill his owner has to bring him to the vet and stays with him until he is dead, I was triggered big time.
    I felt it coming up and moved with the audio book from the kitchen to my bedroom, and the gates opened up wide while I was listening, occasionally pushing the pause button to just cry and cry.
    having to say goodbye and let go of a very loved living creature you have always protected and taken care of and exchanged so much love with, is so full of both deep love and tremendous pain.
    it triggered feelings about final goodbyes, feelings about my former cat, but also immmediately turned into tiny baby wailing, first short distressed wails as calls for help, and then long hopeless wails that sounded so very lost and sad.
    I was even during the crying amazed how there is such a close connection between these strong and specific feelings of a final goodbye to a loved pet and the deep sadness involved, and early baby wails, I can only imagine they must have to do with having been separated as a newborn for too long from my mommy, going suddenly from being a safe and warm two-some to feeling cut off and lost, on my own in a cold indifferent world, giving up hope after a while of calls to reach out.
    big tears kept flowing, in a way it feels reassuring that even after not having come to L.A. for quite a while, and only one or two phone sessions a year these last years, the right trigger can still launch me straight into this old baby stuff.
    I think many of my fellow animal loving bloggers would like this book, and probably be triggered and touched while reading.
    hope some of you can enjoy it, M

  244. sylvia says:

    I’ve heard of this book too, Margaret. I’ve wondered sometimes if my own loneliness triggered by hearing blues horn play in a movie is from that early time when being separated from mom after birth and from times left alone as an infant. I’ve had a couple years ago the shuddering feelings you see in babies as they cry with their whole being. Such vulnerable times and longing for some kind of touch or comfort. If people only knew what babies go through and what’s probably locked inside them too. I think musicians are tuned into this early feeling. Music can make us so easily cry.
    Thanks, Margaret, for sharing these feelings.

  245. Margaret says:

    I hope you like it.
    i remember now how you told us about the dog that was your friend during your childhood.

  246. Larry says:

    Thick, heavy feelings have been growing the past few day, weighing me down, sapping my vitality, to the point where yesterday evening and this morning I can’t summon motivation to do anything. After checking my email this morning, I gravitated to YouTube. Watching more of the recent YouTube news about the Humboldt Broncos bus crash encouraged my tears, and eventually, my crying.

    The sudden, shocking loss of so many healthy, strong, promising young people challenges my confidence in life. Primal Therapy can’t protect us from pain and devastation that can hit us and burden our lives forever or end them in an instant. I started to cry for those hit by the bus crash tragedy. The crying progressed to crying for myself, for the tragedy of my life that no one can fix, that I am burdened by with my every breath. What therapy has helped me to see is that I will never have a loving Mommy and Daddy.

    In empathising with those affected by the bus crash, I feel my own fragility in dealing with life. In the YouTube videos I see the survivors receiving emotional support in ways that I never did when I was growing up. I cry now feeling alone and afraid. Life is too big and scary for me to do alone. Primal Therapy doesn’t make that fear and aloneness go away. Noreen I need you. Mommy and Daddy I need you. Mommy and Daddy I’ve always needed you. You were never there in ways that I needed. I’m sorry I had to go to therapy to learn that. But even after therapy I am nevertheless still alone and in need as I make my way into my present and future. I cry feeling my need that Mom and Dad, Mommy and Daddy, will never fill.

    These are a couple of the shorter videos that touched me this morning. I am posting this as a way for me to confront my feelings.

    • Jo says:

      I was crying this morning with missing my LA friends and especially Gretch and Barry.. and during this, your words Larry, helped me find my own version – I miss you mummy – . This is near the surface for me regularly.

  247. Margaret says:

    today we had the last meeting of our course of conversational skills.
    we had to do a job functioning talk with a so called team leader , with both positive and negative items on the agenda.
    goal was to find out which problems existed with which causes, in order to give the right kind of advice.
    all of that in the right way.

    it was a challenge as the other party with the role of interviewee had a script we as conversation leader had no information about.
    but apart of some technical details I was satisfied with the interview and got nice feedback from the two other students who found my approach very human and trustworthy.

    at the end with everyone including the teacher together again, we took turns to give our opinion on the course, the format, , whatever.
    some talked about to much or too little feedback , were more or less happy, and then it was my turn.
    I spoke about how I liked the make up of the course, and how I especially had enjoyed being able to work in several small groups of three students, and getting to know them at the same time.
    I mentioned the fact that at the start I entered the class feeling like an ugly duckling, felt inferior, emotionally, despite knowing rationally it was not necessarily true.
    being so different,(older, blind and bad hearing), and then working in the small groups made me discover immediately I did function well after all, (at that point I was moved almost to tears, and remained that way while talking), told them for me personally the class, apart from being interesting and fun to do, had felt healing for that matter.
    I thanked the teacher for her support and feedback, and told her I found her a wonderful teacher.

    she came to me afterwards, put her arm around my shoulders and thanked me for the beautiful words…

    one of the students told me my words had also moved her to tears.

    afterwards we stood out on the street chatting a bit, and I said it had ‘almost’ felt embarrassing to become that emotional, but they reassured me it had been very real and genuine.
    that is how it had felt too, but hey, pretty emotional.

    I have even mentioned in the classroom group I had dreamed about the teacher, and told her it had been a very nice dream.

    that is true, I dreamed about beautiful strong horses, someone , their trainer, valuing my opinion on them, and my dad standing by my side. a bit later on in the dream, same setting, my teacher from class was there as well, and told me she had looked after my cat momentarily. we talked about the horses until I heard this tiny meow, and there was my dear former cat, asking for me to comfort her. I very cautiously picked her up, as she looked as if some big dog had gotten hold of her, without really hurting her luckily. her fur looked a bit messy and she looked as if she had had a bit of a shock from which she was recovering.
    the feeling was she/me had been scared but was trusting me enough and brave enough again to let me know she wanted me to hold her and help her.

    the whole dream had a warm feeling of safety and gentleness combined with vulnerability finding proper care…
    I remember so clearly the cat, scruffy but regaining trust and reaching out.
    feel how this makes me choke up.

    a very valuable experience this class. just listened to my recorded ‘interview’ from which we have to make an extensive report and evaluation, and I did like it…

    told the teacher too she was inspiring, and she really was.

  248. Phil says:

    It sounds like that was a great class, and you had a lot to contribute

  249. Margaret says:

    yes, it was an unexpectedly fine experience.especially after having started full of fear and uneasiness it was really very healing to find out I could function after all, especially in small groups, and actually connect very well and enjoy it. I do feel it was also a bit of an experience for the others, because of the intensity of the exercises in which you are quite vulnerable, as because of the connections made. it was a nice group, and I cherish the memory of teacher’s arm around my shoulders, when she thanked me for my beautiful words.
    this experience alone, of this course I mean, was worth a lot of all the effort invested so far.
    wish there were more classes like this one. there will be a continuing course, psychological diagnostic interview, or something similar, but that seems more dull, working with all the DSM specifications. but hey, it is probably given by the same teacher, so it might be a fine experience as well.
    she got her second doctor’s degree now, by the way. she had been nervous to defend her dissertation, but told us it actually turned out to be fun to do.
    I have grown as to trusting my own abilities to connect and socialize and to actually be likable and having something to add.
    yeah, still enjoying the good times, smiley, while they last.

    Phil, how are you doing now? have you decided on the trip to Cuba?
    M around

  250. Phil says:

    I hope you can take another class with that same professor.
    Things are going pretty well for me. I reserved a week of vacation in August to go somewhere,
    and it is looking like it will be Cuba. My older son expressed an interest, but he can’t go because of a government job which requires clearance, and going to Cuba wouldn’t look good. I suggested Mexico as an alternate, but my wife wasn’t so interested about that. So I will look into booking a trip for the two of us to Cuba. The truth is we probably need a vacation just for us; my son can come along next time, and he is taking some other trips anyway.
    I have been studying a lot of Spanish. I still have been frustrated I can’t raise my skill level with it to where I want it, but I don’t want to give up. Maybe it means I’ll be a fluent Spanish speaker in my next lifetime.

  251. Otto Codingian says:

    phil, i would like to try one of those new language things they sell these days, cant remember name. babylon or something. there is a heavy latino presence in l.a. and i would like to know what all those words coming out of their mouths mean. anyway, david bowie, i really did not appreciate his talent enough. and young people dancing like they used to back then DAVID BOWIE – Starman (TOTP). rosetta but thered was also a new one i heard advertised but search on internet does not bring it up.

  252. Otto Codingian says:

    here is one that i could cry to if i wasnt so tired David Bowie – Space Oddity live excellent quality. the juxtuposition of feeling human beings (the music and words describing major tom) and the brief image of the rocket taking off (what the fuck is this shit, shooting upwards, who thought this shit up—scientists)..well makes me sad for some reason. strange animals,those humans, and they are my pack–reality.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I get that same feeling from time to time. Yeah! ….. what king of animal are we???????

      How some seem to think we are the most intelligent beats me … but then I sometimes wonder what is meant by intelligence. I’ve questioned it all. … and even wrote a book about it. Don’t ask me why; it might make me cry.


  253. Margaret says:

    what a treat, all those comments of this morning!
    Otto, that is still making me smile, haha, ‘hide the honey’…
    Larry, I guess it is only partly a matter of the right group of people, as I have had no persoal contact with half of them. of course the setting is a part of things, a bunch of psychology students having to do exercises in which one becomes vulnerable, and of course having worked closely together with some of them pulled me over the line.
    but also a large part seems to be accepting my own feelings as to being able to share them when there is a moment that feels right.
    I would assume you have some groups like the Unitarians where it would be safe to do so. the people that accept you will reach out, and the others usually stay away anyway.
    maybe some of my group were not that thrilled of me or of what I shared, who knows, but the important issue is it did make me connect with the people on my wavelength.
    I do hope you find more people still with whom you can reveal yourself when you feel the need to do so.
    and I entirely agree this situation was indeed pretty special, the format helped, and the general attitude of the teacher as well.
    do you still remain in touch with the dancing scene? have you been dancing again already?

    • Larry says:

      Hi Margaret. Dance classes ended with the end of March and the end of university classes. Ballroom dance class will resume again in September. I haven’t pursued any other venues for now for learning dance. Dance has fallen off my radar for now. It will take a big uphill climb to get myself out to some kind of dance class, but would probably be good for me if I did. It just makes me feel so lonely to have to keep pushing myself.

      I’ve been busy the past week or more with helping to put together and Earth Day service that was presented at church this morning. Someone else on the committee came up with the content, the speakers, and the musical selections. I put together the PowerPoint slides, and I was the service leader, which is sort of like the Master of Ceremonies. The past two weeks of preparation have been stressful for me. I doesn’t help to be in a phase of not having access to feelings, to be bottled up and suffering through. I would say my past two weeks have been ruined because I am absolutely uncomfortable with and dread having the spotlight on me and the responsibility for helping make the service go off well.

      It did go off well. Attendance was higher than average. There was lots of socializing after ward. People said the service was meaningful to them. I’m glad I got through it and did my part. I’m glad I didn’t let my anxieties stop me from participating. I’m glad it’s over. But, I don’t feel accomplished. I feel empty.

      On top of that, the little committee that I’m part of hosted 3 showings this weekend of a short film called “Sirocco: Winds of Resistance”. The film was followed by two live speakers and a question period. I was asked to videotape the 2 speakers. I have equipment that can do the job, but I’ve never videotaped before. I was glad to help my committee by doing the videotaping. I welcomed the challenge. Now that it’s all done, I feel empty. Also the film itself dealt with a social injustice happening to third world people in Western Sahara, and a big company with headquarters in my city is implicated. The injustice that is impoverishing those people is awful. But other than helping with the videotaping, I’m going to just stand by and do nothing to help them. I’m going to try to block out their suffering and try to enjoy my life, knowing that the system that brings me a comfortable life impoverishes theirs. Knowing that makes it hard for me to enjoy my life.

      I feel empty. I feel alone. I feel that something about the emptiness and aloneness will never change. I feel like I don’t deserve something better, while at the same time I don’t feel I deserve how lucky I am that I’m not under the same awful hardship that a lot of other people are. I feel out of touch with reality. I feel no motivation to try. I want my family that I’m never going to have. I don’t want to be so alone.

      • Larry says:

        Thank goodness for this little blog where I can express these feelings and thoughts and feel that someone might hear and understand. Makes me feel less disconnected and lonely.

        • sylvia says:

          I hear you, Larry. It’s hard to help people who are in a disadvantaged country. Perhaps we all feel helpless with those feelings. I too watch the disadvantaged. Like refugees on tv fleeing into other countries, places where they aren’t always welcomed, and sometimes have to live in a camp. I try to forget too about others’ misery.
          This is a good place to share our feelings, you’re right. I like it here too.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: the sadness, loneliness and emptiness come through so, so clearly. Knowing you as I do I just wished I could do something for you .. yet knowing I can’t, other than to give you as much support as I can on the blog.

        I also cringe and let the tears run downy cheek when I read or see on TV of all the sadness out there. The one that got me all ‘balled up’ was the little 8 year old Indian Muslim girl being gang raped then strangled with her own scarf. CCCRRRRISTO!!!!!
        It doesn’t have to be … yet I sense there is an overall blind spot in us humans. It saddens me and makes me want to do something about it all.
        I suspect the feeling for me is that no-one is listening. 😦 😦 .

        I hope you’ll keep writing to the blog as it seems you obviously need to. Take care Larry.


      • Phil says:

        I can relate to a lot of what you say. I wouldn’t like to be master of ceremonies in front of a crowd as that would certainly give me anxiety.
        I hope you can continue to progress through feelings so as not to feel alone, as well as get more things going for yourself.

  254. Vicki says:

    Just what I have been feeling lately:

    Two days ago, driving to my session, some jerk pissed me off with his rude behavior, cutting in front of a lot of people, making me feel bad and somehow ashamed that I am a sucker for not being willing to be that selfish, every time I’m on the road. He just doesn’t care about anyone else, I saw him do it twice within a few minutes. I wanted him dead, I fantasize driving a plow that can just dump him over and stomp all over him. I went on calling him ugly names, shouting racist, sexist and toxic whatever, trying to think of the most hurtful words. I used to feel bad about ‘acting out’ that kind of anger, and ashamed of having those feelings, but over the years, I have let that go — I am not actually doing it to his face, or hurting him in reality, I am just alone in my car, ranting like a fucking lunatic.

    But I was still angry, until I realized and said, “I want to hurt you, I just want you to hurt (like I do).” Then I realized I was talking to my mom (dead for 9 yrs), I shifted my gaze, and went on telling her off, “…fucking piece of shit”, “you just hurt me, and hurt me” … until finally saying “it’s YOU. you’re the poop. YOU’RE the poop!” And that was the feeling, that was it. I felt very young. I don’t have a scene, but imagine she berated me more than once for pooping or not pooping, on command. But I felt it was important that I just keep going with the feelings, and not stop, because I was still angry, and had to get to the bottom of it, and I did, this time.

    Today, I went from feeling just miserable, angry, wanting to be destructive, ranting around the house, just fucking miserable. Expressing it as “I just fucking want to be dead, fucking dead… just fuck it, I don’t want to be good, I don’t WANT to be good, I don’t care! I don’t care, it’s fucking not worth it. It hurts, it hurts, it HURTS, the pain HURTS.” And then as if I was talking to my mom, “The pain hurts!, it HURTS, IT HURTS!” like telling her it just goes on hurting, for fucking years, because of the things she did As if she was so clueless, she’s lashing out, angry all the time, berating us, belittling, mean, vicious, like the only thing she knows how to do is hurt someone — whoever is within range. Bitter, vicious, I see her face.

    What did you think was gonna happen, when you rained down anger on us? “Why the fuck did you have children? You fucked, and you had us.” If I had asked her that, she would have angrily said she wished she never had children — as she once actually said out loud, I think to me, and my brother. I never asked her that question.

    I was still walking around my kitchen kind of mad, and finally blurted, “My mom was a fucking cunt!” I HAVE to say it. I felt like I have to shout it to the world, as if I don’t think people know just how much of a cunt she was! And like I’m telling myself, as if I don’t quite get it, either. That seems to be the point. I felt better then.

    I never said that to her, somehow lashing out at her that much, I still would have been afraid it could kill her, or hurt her really bad, and I would have felt bad if it did. So it either would have made me feel bad about myself, or some part of me must have felt like I loved her anyway. With all that rottenness. No wonder I’m miserable, much of the time.

    • Phil says:

      Vicki, that sounds significant getting to all that anger about your mother

    • Larry says:

      I’m glad you felt it worthwhile to share that, Vicki.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: Wow! Wow! and how fucking woweeeeee great all that came across to me..

      The brilliance of this therapy … for all the pain and hurt.and misery that we have to go through..

      Keep us informed Vicki. Reading things like this is so, so encouraging.


  255. sylvia says:

    Vicki, it sounds like it was a good thing to express your anger about being hurt. Really sounds like the right response for what you endured. I hope you feel less miserable and discover more about how those hurts affected you. Great that you could go so far down into childhood too.

  256. Margaret says:

    today was a fine very summery day all of a sudden.
    our gym class was given outdoors, exercises and jogging around an athletic field.
    that was great, as I had wanted to give it a try again for a long time already.
    I jogged together with a nice 72 year old lady, and in total , on and off as we had to do other exercises as well, we easily jogged ove a mile, while still being able to chat in the meantime. for her too it had been over 5 years since her last bit of running, for me maybe even 10, so we were both nicely surprised we could so easily do it still without getting exhausted, and we really enjoyed it.
    such a feeling of freedom, just to peacefully jog in the sun and wind, enjoying the body movement and the open air.
    told the teacher I’d love to do this again and that I’d also love to try out how far I could jog without a break. he lauged and said he did not have all day to wait until we’d get tired, smiley.
    nice to find out to be able to do better than expected physically still…
    better keep practising to stay in the flow…

  257. Otto Codingian says:

    is there any real reason to get up tomorrow? 1968 music makes me remember getting up on a saturday, as some kind of child, the day full of promise. tomorrow, not much to look forward to, walk the dog around the stinky lake, look at ducks and geese and people. soon it will be without the dog and i don’t want to get another one.

  258. Otto Codingian says:

    then get groceries for the week, and eat myself into a stupor for the rest of the weekend. not looking for solutions. just tired of this shit.

  259. Otto Codingian says:

    like this
    Get up in the morning, slaving for bread, sir
    So that every mouth can be fed
    Poor me, the Israelite

    My wife and my kids, they packed up and leave me
    Darling, she said, “I was yours to be seen”
    Poor me, the Israelite

  260. Margaret says:

    sounds like you made several important connections.
    Jack, thanks. now you can start enjoying your garden even more, finally spring setting through!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Yep! and it’s so lovely with clear blue skies and sunshine and California type temperatures, and the forest all leafy and with all beach treas and a smattering of others Some daffodils and one tulip and lots of other flowers that Jim is so into.

      The chalet is lovely also, and these Dutch folks know just how to make a home so COSY.

      So!!! “all’s well” but no idea if it will “[that] end[s] well”. WS Who’s b/day is Monday


  261. Vicki says:

    Thanks Sylvia, Phil, Larry, Jack & Margaret, for your encouraging comments. Sylvia, your thoughtful comments and Jack, your enthusiasm particularly heartened me. Until I read them, I had not realized I needed that “validation”, if that’s the right word. In the middle of the feelings, I mostly just feel like an aberrant nutcase, but I have to have faith that if I persist in “feeling my way” through the morass, there are, indeed, lights at the end of various tunnels. And as an old friend told me many years ago, there is always a “point” to whatever story I’m working on.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: “Until I read them, I had not realized I needed that ‘validation’ “.

      Yep! Vicki, that VALIDATION is so important. COS … that what we never got … and little children need all that, in order to survive. It’s a sad, sad world and maybe it’s getting sadder by the day … OR … is it just me??


      • sylvia says:

        I agree Jack, it is important to know someone is there who understands. Why else do we communicate, to let someone know our feelings and makes us feel we are on the right track. I think it’s better to go to our feelings than to avoid them with distractions, what just about everyone does in the non-feeling sphere of act-outs.
        When I say something to my brother and he has the look of he knows what I mean, then that validation is gold to me. Makes my day. I guess it’s proof that I am really here and am heard and there is another soul that can relate.
        And Jack, I guess there is sadness of the world , people ill-treating each other, and you wonder where it will end up. I take solace in the things that are going well, because there are those too. People helping each other, and parents who do treat their kids well. I like seeing that. Well, so much for a philosophical view. Keep on feeling–keep on truckin’.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Thanks Sylvia: I also agree that there are some good things out there. Maybe I watch too much TV and what is going on in the political world out there. I always was something of a news junkie, but that one is something I (stupidly) keep doing.

          Take care Sylvia. I take it you never got formal therapy, but I could be somewhat confused there. If you didn’t then I feel you are doing remarkably well on your own. I know another guy in a similar situation … so it is possible if one has some elementary sensibility to feelings to go the feeling route to life.


          • sylvia says:

            Thank you, Jack. No never did get to the Institute, but when the time was right I did ease into feelings. Took a long time to begin feeling, beings I read the primal books when they first came out.
            Just a note about a movie I watched on Amazon on prime or available for 99 cents. It’s called “Mister Rogers and Me.” It’s a documentary videoed by a young fellow who was a seaside neighbor of Fred Rogers’ during a few summers. He interviewed people who knew and worked with him. And he talked about how special and helpful Fred was in his own life when he was going through rough times. Everyone interviewed commented on how open and present Mr. Rogers was. It showed how because of bullying episodes Fred endured for being shy and overweight as a child and not getting much support with his feelings, that he wanted to make a point how important children’s feelings are. Hence, his signature phrase: “I like you just the way you are.”
            A good movie, and such a gentle guy was Mr. Rogers.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Sylvia: I hope for you that one day you will have enough spare cash to go over to LA a couple of days early, get a couple of session and then go to a retreat and meet all the people you met through the blog. A sort of making a fulfillment out of it all.

              I agree that no-one has a monopoly on feelings and that some of us are able to get into them without a therapist. Having a therapist I feel is a luxury which I wished we could all have. The second best being a buddy..

              I remember Mr. Rogers and thought the program was lovely for children, but had no desire to watch him myself … not quite sure why.


  262. Otto Codingian says:

    in such a bad funk….

  263. sylvia says:

    Que pasa Otto-man?

  264. Otto Codingian says:

    sylvia my otto-man empire is now more anger than funk, since i go to work yesterday and today ahd people are touching my stuff and throwing it away. new guy who i am training and should be doing what i tell him is doing that because our boss is colluding with new guy behind my back and tellihg him to throw stuff out. i don’t know what old feeling this is about. anyway, this song is so romantic or loving, like i will never have, because it is just not going to be. David Bowie – China Girl
    the way they look at each other…this love i only felt shortly as a baby and of course that is different than romance but still close enough to pure bliss.

  265. Otto Codingian says:

    vicki, very impressive, instructional, and inspiring. thahks for letting us know this about your life with mom. i wish i could see this posted on the wall at the p.i. (maybe peering out of a kleenex box–modern art style), so i could read it on my infrequent trips to said pi, and go to the depths like you did. i hope i am not making this post too much about me, pretty hard for me to not do that. so, good to hear that you got that poop out.

    • Vicki says:

      Ha,ha, Ha, Otto! Yes, better poop out, than in. Just read through your own internal version of the similar story, to “go to the depths” — and then come back and write about it here!

  266. Jack Waddington says:

    Read an article by Art, quite long and surprising. It was the first article where I saw Art writing about politics. It was entitled “Government as Cult or The Cult of Trust” Originally published September 18, 2008.

    There were two surprises; First, it seemed to be almost predicting the advent of Trump. The second demonstrating just why and how our political ideas are rooted in our childhood traumas. Art, in no-way seemed to offer a way out the collective dilemma, but it did make me reflect on mine.

    Further to all this, I veiwed (stupidly) the whole Macon visit to The White House.
    The whole thing was so embarrassing and made me wonder just what this whole ‘show’ was about; and for who’s benefits. Since Macron appears to be the brighter of the two I wondered just why he was making this trip in the first place, since I doubt it will offer him any benefits at home in France.
    All this brought me to reflecting on me. Is this why I am a political ‘anarchist’ and why do I have such a craving to promote it? Is it that I never saw in my daddy being the leader of the family and finally, his proclivity to punish us for just being kids, doing kids things?
    It’s all so fuckin crazy and I don’t see any way we humans might overcome this debilitating condition.
    Just me needing to rant again.


  267. Phil says:

    I can relate to what you say here. I hardly enjoy reviewing news events anymore, except for stories and opinions on how Trump’s power can be countered, or he can be removed from office. I avoid any video or audio of Trump. Something is obviously very seriously wrong with a system like we have here which allowed him to become president. It has little to do with how I’m doing at a personal level, but I’m concerned just the same.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Me too, it’s the fear of what he might do from not checking or following anything up, but going from what he thinks for the moment. Then nukes start flying around.

      I grant it goes deeper within me, but for now that’s