In Memory of Arthur Janov by Daniel

The following is a personal view of some of Arthur Janov’s ideas. It does not proport to be a survey or an accurate description of his thinking but rather how his ideas were used by me, both personally and professionally. It is my own tribute to the man and his teachings.


A Janov

When we meet or hear of an arrogant person strutting around, exploiting others, putting people down, singing his own praises, controlling others; or a very suspicious person seeing lies and conspiracies in each and every corner, constantly feeling maligned or exploited by powerful forces beyond his control such as foreigners, the hostile media or Jews;  most of us are likely to become moralistic and say something like: “He thinks only of himself”, or “He’s completely paranoid” and “He needs to constantly control others”. It takes a Janov to say: “He has suffered a trauma”, that what we see and experience on the outside is the debris – or some other outcome – of a psychological disaster.


And Arthur Janov didn’t settle for that but went on to describe many of the details of the trauma, the conditions under which it comes about, its lifelong aftermath and, characteristically optimistic, its possible resolution. For this he had to dig deep, sometimes very deep, aided by a special procedure he devised (or as he would have it, stumbled upon). And interestingly, that procedure, the Primal, wasn’t only means by which neurotic resolution can come about but also, just as important, the digging shovel itself, a research tool with which to penetrate as far back as he could reach into the earliest times and origins of the psychic universe, his own giant telescope peering as it were into the endless mental space of which only the arrogant or paranoid tip, now distorted by Pain, is evident in plain sight.



Having defined his theory – like psychoanalysis defined itself – in terms of traumas and their persistence, it is striking to realize (at least for me) that underlying Janov’s focus on correcting the individual human predicament is his implied proposition that man is forever split. And thus, forever lost. Or even, to take that proposition a step further, that to be human is to be split, that this tear in our existence is part of what defines us as human beings. No one, after all, had such a perfect upbringing, such a smooth inner life, that trauma – and hence the tear, the split – is precluded from his or her life. And being split, man – as Janov’s theory articulates and practice aims for – harboursa persistent wish to reunite with his split-off part and heal the tear, to return to and regain the state of being whole, to find his way back to, and through the gates of Pain reenter, the wholesome garden of Eden from which he was once upon a time so traumatically expelled.


For this is something Janov is explicitly – and one might add Americanly – adamant about: the originating point of the split must be sought and reached. The Primal experience may take us to early childhood, but if we find that wholeness is achieved only briefly, that this is not the end of the road, we will use the Primal telescope to look further back into toddlerhood, and then early babyhood and finally even into the pre-natal life of the individual or, by extension and yet further back, the prehistory of humanity. The search for wholeness, in other words, is endless, limitless, bottomless.


For man, according to this implicit view, is divorced not only from his own personal true nature but from Nature itself. It is not surprising, therefore, that every now and then the discussion on this blog veers toward an attempt at finding the root of not only personal pain but of human neurosis in general. Customarily, such discussions land at man’s prehistory, way back when man was supposedly, hopefully, closer to and part of Nature. At that point in time, it is argued, man was whole and even though current men and women – unbearably adult, irretrievably split, tragically lost – cannot but glimpse into or imagine these ancient, pre-split, pre-damage times, they can nevertheless by such historical affiliations sense some connection to, some type of union with, this wholeness.


It is my view that this search for wholeness, rather than its actual attainment, is at the heart of the Janovian oeuvre. It is this endless pursuit of personal truth and meaning, guided by the principles of feeling and emotional life, that allows us to grow and develop. It is not a state (wholeness) we’re after but rather a process. In other words, our primary need in adult life and aim in therapy is not only to exorcise and get rid of Pain in order to complete ourselves, but even more so to develop or regain something – let’s call that something the Feeling Child – so we can encounter our personal truth, process Pain and tolerate and even make use of our incompleteness. Guided, aided and accompanied by the Feeling Child out travels and travails through life, although incomplete, will be richer, more meaningful and more real.


Wholeness, on the other hand, connotes an end, a final stage and state. And, for the sake of exercise, once this presumed but elusive wholeness is secured, where do we go from here? In which direction can we further develop? What will drive us to seek new answers for ourselves? It is almost as if an answer is the question’s worst enemy: as long as a question is unanswered it is alive, every option is potentially available and each course may be taken; but once a final answer is given all roads not taken and options not exercised wither away as does the question itself.


So, to go back to Janov, we can think of the Feeling Child itself as more than merely a state evoking static adjectives such as ‘good’ and ‘whole’ which portray that state as a condition to be in, a ‘place’ to reinhabit: It is also a function of the mind of which expressing feelings is only a part. For example, I think that by emphasizing the emotive part of the Feeling Child we tend to neglect its crucial perceptive function, its astuteness.  From this perspective, we must reach and recover a lost capacity to feel because in addition to helping us to express our feelings such a capacity is essential for sensing truth and thus for creating meaning. And because the Feeling Child is first and foremost a sense organ with which we perceive emotional reality, it engenders in us a capacity to deal with and process meaningfully the constant influx of emotional stimuli from without and from within.


In summary, the Felling Child seen as a process rather than a state has three interrelated but distinct functions. These functions, in reverse order of appearance, are: To emote (feelings), to process (emotional stimuli into feelings), to perceive (emotional stimuli). And as can be seen from this description of the Feeling Child as a process, and of course also learned from actual personal and clinical experience, the ability to feel, to express a well delineated feeling, is a developmentand cannot be taken for granted. In each stage something can, and quite often does, go wrong.

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502 Responses to In Memory of Arthur Janov by Daniel

  1. jackwaddington says:

    Daniel: A great article. and a great tribute to Arthur Janov.

    I’ll take the liberty to add (again) my tribute:- “He made the greatest discovery that mankind ever made OR for that matter will ever, will ever make … because we now know something about ourselves that has eluded us humans for eons.

    I loved in particular, how you see it eludes to the way we once were.


    • FRED says:

      August 3, 2018

      Last Saturday, 7/25/18, I had a very different primal, that is, different from most I’ve had.

      First, though, in keeping with the theme of Daniel’s article, I “owe” a lot to Arthur Janov. He was quite the pioneer and he did a great service to mankind (of course, womankind too). The world, and certainly the psychological establishment will never be the same after his first book and his Status Quo-threatening Primal Therapy and Primal Theory.

      For me, I believe it is fair to say that learning how to access feelings and about their nature, was life-saving or at least sanity-saving.

      Now, I will only briefly discuss my primal of Saturday (here in the apartment in West Hollywood).

      It started out as a “normal” primal, much sadness, wailing into pillows, FEELING the emotional component to my thoughts, for example, “Nobody loves me”. Wow! Blessed salvation for sure. I would be able to get through the day as The Sadness had been drained a bit.

      However, it, the quality of the crying, began to shift. It became much more infantile. This wasn’t the first time in my current chain of primals but this time it was “seamless” and fuller.

      Now, I want to explain. I try to avoid “stuff” like this. I try to NEVER assume there is “infant” stuff “going on” even though I know all the theory about Birth Trauma, First Line, Second Line, Third Line, etc. The coming of this voice was quite natural then, nothing forced, nothing done because I thought “baby stuff is coming up so I better try to ‘get’ to it”.

      Then, for a few moments, maybe 10 seconds, I was the infant and my crying for love as a small child simply became a need for love by the infant, nothing more.

      However, I did, for a moment, access the consciousness of me-as-an-infant, i.e., my consciousness. It wasn’t quite what I expected. There was this wise self, even multi-dimensional self that was, in a way, guiding all this. It’s hard to explain but it was not really in the three-dimensional universe.

      At no time was there “trauma”, need to be turned over, wet diaper or anything like that. It was all pretty gentle too, just an “onslaught” of emotional information that I was successfully feeling, as I’ve learned how to do, over the years.

      However, that isn’t where the story ends, by no means!

      This last week has been maybe the STRANGEST in my life. I’m not saying this primal was the sole cause but I had to try to figure out “why”.

      The strangeness has NOT been unpleasant, at times slightly terrifying but overall, EXCEEDINGLY interesting, with some events I would NEVER EVER have even imagined.

      Moreover, there has been a, what you could call, supernatural dimension to some of these experiences.

      At any rate, I am not going to detail these unless I get interest from the group and I don’t get a “PLEASE DO NOT POST” message.

      The coda to this message is, though, that this week has been, at least at this point, LIFE CHANGING.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: Interesting, I have one suggestion. Merely a suggestion:- You say:- “This last week has been maybe the STRANGEST in my life. I’m not saying this primal was the sole cause but I had to try to figure out “why”.”

        I don’t think there is a need to figure it out. I feel eventually it will fall into place. Sort of:- ‘Just let it happen’.


  2. Daniel says:

    Thanks Jack. I’m not sure this is the way we really were, but more that we have a constant current yearning to be whole, and that what we think about the prehistory of man is testimony to our current wish to be whole. In psychological terms, you can look at it as if it were a projection of our present wish into the distant past.

  3. Sylvia says:

    `Nice post, Daniel. I was reading a new book by one of the therapists who worked at Dr. Janov’s center, Frank Robinette. His book: “Spilt Milk; the real function of crying.,” states that neurosis started to flower about 10,000 yrs ago when we switched from hunters and gatherers to an agrarian society. People did not have the lush resources of traveling about and were stuck in one place, and developed ownership of property. Also with a population of over 150 a need for a central ruler evolved and you have the elite with lesser people and the haves and have-nots of inequality. In essence, though, the book is more about crying being a human function to right the hurt we have and connect to our whole self.

    I find it a bit ironic, Daniel, that after your post is an ad for a brain stimulator ($700) for relief of depression and anxiety. (It might just be on my site.) This, a place where we rely on our feelings to diminish those things. Advertisers never miss a beat, do they.
    Thanks for sharing.

    • Daniel says:

      Thanks Sylvia. I agree that what Robinette is saying makes sense and have made this point myself on this blog in the past. As I wrote in my reply to Jack, what interests me more than the historical circumstances of the appearance of Neurosis is the current wish to find those circumstances and what is manifested in such wishes: The need to feel whole, to reunite with a lost part or ourselves.

  4. Margaret says:


  5. Phil says:

    Great article. I like the point about how what’s more important is the process of the feeling child striving to be whole, rather than the endpoint, which never seems to come into sight anyway.


  6. Erron says:


  7. Sylvia says:

    I was visiting the Primal Center site and saw there was a podcast of France Janov talking with Richard Atherton of the “Being Human Podcast.” I thought it was interesting. They talked about primal therapy, birth primals and how therapy can change your life. It was touching what she said about Art toward the ending of the talk. Good to see she is spreading the word about therapy to those who are open enough to receive it.

  8. Daniel, Thanks again for the wonderful article. I loved reading it and found it to be well written and extremely astute. I really appreciate the time you took to give us your perspective. Gretchen

  9. Jo says:

    I love to read Primal patients’ and therapists’ views on their processes/progress etc, and appreciate your tribute to Dr Art Janov Daniel.
    Also Sylvia, thanks for the Dr France Janov link.

  10. jackwaddington says:

    Phil &/or anyone one else interested: I have gotten an early reasonable draft of my new book (perhaps a pamphlet) of 20 or so pages into a .PDF file that I can send for free to anyone emailing me and asking for it It’s titled “Anarchy: Another Way to Live”. I will send it as an attachment in a return email.

    I would also like to get any and all responses one might offer, to at least see how it comes across to readers. My email address:-


  11. Barry M says:

    A truly exceptional article that I thoroughly enjoyed reading every time that I went through it.
    thank you so much for all your time, effort and insights.
    I especially love the first paragraph under A JANOV, and it took me about a third of a nano-second to think of someone like that. A psychological disaster indeed !!
    Again, WELL DONE
    Barry M

  12. Margaret says:

    only after reading over attentively your post again today, was I able to let in the many and very interesting levels of what you wrote.
    it is indeed very refreshcing to see and define the different factors and stages of perception, processing and expressing the emotional stimuli and the real danger of something going wrong on one singular level, which is enough to provoke damage if serious or repeatedly happening.
    thanks for sharing this, I will copy and keep it if that is ok and if ever I would like to quote it contact you first for your permission.
    indeed a very refreshing point of view of what we all experienced and still experience.

  13. Margaret says:

    it made me reflect some more on a feeling I recently had to ‘work on’ again.
    sometimes sadness is hard to really access, and an insight got triggered by reading in a novel about one of the characters talking about how all photographs of her childhood looking so happy. then she reflected that of course people do not take pictures of sad moments.
    that is when I could let it in some more that I have several pictures of when I was 3 or 4 years old, in which i am crying or even running away seemingly screaming in distress. I imagine my mom telling my dad to take a picture of me quickly on those moments, as for some reason she always or often saw something funny about me as if I was some kind of a performing drama queen or something.
    I realized myself it put a load of shame on top of the original feeling of sadness and distress, this making it a shameful feeling, something to be disappproved for or ridiculed about, certainly not to be taken seriously or to show safely…
    on the very moment of the insight I already felt some relief, some gate opening some more.
    that seems an example of a moment in childhood where the original perception and processing was still intact, but then the expressing got sabotaged permanently as being shameful, and therefore even the processing and perceiving in a latter stage.
    so sad, how even ‘well meaning’ parents can do so much damage due to their own pain.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. I was rereading some of the comments and saw yours which affected me when I first read it last week. That does seem cruel that you were mocked for showing your sad or upset feelings, as if you were on display. Just because we haven’t the capacity to think like an adult yet, it seems we are subject to be made fun of or disregarded of our feelings.
      I recall at the age of 5 yrs. being asked to sing a song for my grandmother . I was so shy I hid next to the stairs where no one could see me and mouthed, barely audible, the little tune I had learned in school. Not an earth-shattering moment, but just an example of how fragile our little feelings are. I probably couldn’t do it now either, though– sing in front of someone.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Sylvia: Just reading of the little Sylvia being so shy and hiding by the staircase, barely audible, singing for your grandmother, just made me so sad. It brought up all those moments in my life when I was so little. Too many to recount here. I just need to sit with them for a while.


      • Margaret says:

        hi Sylvia,
        thanks for sharing that story.
        shyness seems such a vast field that has been paid little attention to.
        and then we are ‘forced’ to perform!
        i think specially in those cases the natural shyness of kids can be blown up to more unnatural and lasting proportions maybe.
        making us poor kiddies feel something is wrong with us, whether we are ‘too shy’ or performing.
        for myself i feel I still and probably always will have a mixture of shyness and boldness, depending of the circumstances and feedback.
        like I like to perform, but can be shriveling away in a party situation…

  14. FRED says:

    I admit to getting somewhat lost in Daniel’s post but I think I hear him saying that we have an intact, inviolate, inner-“Feeling Child” that can be perceived and brought into clearer emotional focus over time. I think he’s making the point that the inevitable in this process (if we persevere) is that we journeyers-into-the-realm of the human psyche will gain more and more skill in processing the emotional data, resulting in a greater re-integration.

    I also think I hear Daniel saying that, what he calls “The Feeling Child”, is always “Crying, Waiting, Hoping” (with a tip of the hat to Buddy Holly’s great song, discovered in 1959 posthumously on an Ampex reel-to-reel tape recorder in the New York apartment where he lived with his wife, María Elena; this song by the way, Barry B., is my favorite non-Beatle song of all time).

    I would add, then, that you could infer that this Feeling Child is crying, weeping over its exile from the natural state. If it knew that eventually it WILL be returned, it might not cry but, you see (as A. Janov so painstakingly articulated) the stages of development of the brain (aka “Birth Trauma”, “First Line”, “Second Line”, “Third Line”, etc.), make this impossible sans conscious participation of the adult, that is The Not-So-Feeling Adult.

    About the waiting, I would say that the Feeling Child NEVER actually left (unlike Puff, the Magic Dragon). This child is ever-faithful, no matter the sin or dereliction of the personality. You could say, then that this Feeling Child possesses an un-severable connection to Unconditional Love.

    I think then that the Feeling Child is always hoping that we would listen, to acknowledge its eternal supplication and take note of its cries for it is desperately signaling its only aspiration–freedom–in countless ways (often through the body), unendingly trying to communicate with us, across The Split: “Hey, I’m in here! Please come get me!”.

    Did we not see the episode of the Twilight Zone, “Little Girl Lost” (original air date, 3/16/1962)? You may recall that dad had to go into that other dimension to retrieve the lost little girl who was crying out for “mommy and daddy”.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Fred: Sounds to me like you ‘got it’.


      • Fred says:

        That I, we might hear the Call of Love. I speak for myself. Were that mankind would lay down his swords, and take up plow shears; that we would “admit” we are hurt and scared, somehow be loving and cooperative to one another!

        And I’m a nominal Republican!.

        Turn turn turn, a time for every season.

        The Primal Community has a Righteousness about it.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Fred: Of course we each of can only speak for ourselves. I see more now why you replied to Daniels article the way you did. Daniel was also speaking for himself.

          Not sure why you state “And I’m a nominal Republican!”. Can’t say Republicans are my favorite people, but then I think the ideology of both parties are flawed. I also don’t feel there is such a thing as a political middle course.

          I’m an out and out Anarchist, in-so-far as total freedom will ONLY exist when we are free from Governments Laws and Money. My latest book is about just that and also, my contention that if ever mankind could become non-neurotic it will only occur when there are no Governments, Laws and Money. I do acknowledge that this puts me at odds with most people and that includes most Primal people. However, I see the state of the world, to be moving in that direction.

          Should you wish, I can send the latest draft of my book on this matter, if you give me your email address. Mine is:-


          • Anonymous says:

            I’ve sent you an email so you can send me your book, which I’d be interested to read. Thanks Phil

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Phil: Yep got it and replied with .PDF file.

              No need to be gentle. I would love a good crit of both the content and style.


          • FRED says:

            We have more power to bring about The Change than we might imagine. I would proffer this. Our ideas structure our experience. Ideation, of course is the flip side of the coin with feelings. Feelings actually flow from the ideas so one could say that feelings are tails, ideas are heads (the opposite of what A. Janov stated). I realize I’m only a voice in the wilderness but I am as certain as I could be that the actual key is through assimilating the ideas. That process will actually lead to “bigger and better” primals and untold openings and courage.

            Have a great day.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Fred: I for one would like to welcome you to this blog though you might have commented in the past which I am not aware of.
              Just to be picky: I agree we all have the instictive capacity to heal, both physically and emotionally, eg. scaping ones knee as a kid and it miraculously heals … or did with me. However I do feel you have it sort of backwards particularly when you state “Our ideas structure our experience”. I say:- quite the reverse; “Our experiences, especially in chilhood structure our ideas, AND opinions, bvehaviors, beliefs, attitudes, personalities, even who we like.
              Sybolically we’re all of us ‘voices in a wilderness’. That’s how we are different.

              I grant you recognize your idea is the opposite of Janov, and you sure are welcome to share that on this blog, but not in the process to become offensive, though I am not suggesting so far you have been … but that means you’re in a position to get opposite feelings from other bloggers here, especially from me.

              Meantime take care Fred.


              • FRED says:

                June 6, 2018

                Thank you for the warm welcome. I feel humble and even privileged. I truly do.

                I was NOT a patient at the Primal Institute in the early 1970s. I was, however, a patient at one of the “mock” primal centers to which Dr. Janov alluded at various times. I cannot say that I would completely agree or disagree with him on his characterization of others practicing “Primal Therapy” outside the auspices of the Primal Institute, maybe later his international center, but I do understand why he HAD to issue these warnings.

                I don’t think it’s necessary for me to go over in great detail my path, if you will, but there might be some who might have an interest in the “early days”.

                I read The Book in the late summer of 1971. I was walking across the campus at the University of Okahoma, Norman, when this guy from Chicago whom I’d known from the dorm a little, though not that closely, “out of the blue” told me that I had to get this book.

                Now, people recommend books all the time. I’m sure many people have had this experience but we have only a limited time to dedicate to reading, especially if you are still in college as I was, fall of 1971 (I was supposed to graduate, spring 1971, but I had changed majors too many times but The Draft was over).

                Nevertheless, I walked into a bookstore just north of campus, a day or 2 later and intentionally bought “The Primal Scream”. It was just one of those things. I’d never heard of it, despite being a Beatle-fan from day one in January, 1964; and John Lennon & Yoko Ono having already done the therapy a year earlier.

                I read a few chapters but had to postpone the rest of the book until after the summer semester was over, but even those few pages imprinted on me (thanks, AJ, for the word).

                The dorm did not re-open that fall; it closed to become an office building. I was sad and alone but “The Primal Scream” came along at the right time. That fall “Who’s Next” was released, and Graham Nash’s album “Songs for Beginners”, along with Lennon’s 1970 and 1971 Primal Therapy-inspired albums “Plastic Ono Band” and “Imagine”; “Tea for the Tillerman” from 1970, and “Led Zeppelin IV” in November, 197.. All this music, reading The Book 3 times, well you can imagine. What a unique period. Looking back, it WAS the end of the 1960s, however.

                I HAD to do The Therapy, the response that many of us from that (very) specific generation had. Some people I met at the pizza place where I worked and I traveled to Los Angeles, March 1972, my first visit to California. We went to the Primal Institute on Almont Drive in West Hollywood. We were terrified to walk in. Of course, they were nice to us and told us the waiting list was something like 10 years and the price seemed completely out of reach.

                It was during this trip and a subsequent trip, July 1972, that we learned about the “break-off” centers, that is, people (therapists) who left the Primal Institute. The main ones we heard about were The Center for Feeling Therapy on La Brea in Los Angeles (yes, we DID visit this later-infamous place, and I DID read the fantastic book on it “Therapy Gone Wild” which prompted me to have a primal in June 2001); The Social Growth Center in Berkeley (started by 2 therapists whose “stories” had been testimonials in “The Primal Scream”); The Marin Center for Experiential Therapy” in San Rafael (a patient there wrote a book on it); and The Center Within, Berkeley (maybe not a break-off?).

                I gave my dad the book. He read it, kind of made fun it and Janov (he pronounced the last name “Yanoff”), but gave me the money to go to the Social Growth Center. I entered in February, 1973. In the next 16 months, I learned a LOT!!!!, much by simply listening to other patients in groups–invaluable, in fact.

                My therapist moved to Texas to take a job but I had been working a lot with Katherine Vine, a most brilliant, caring woman from England who (according to her) was fired from the Primal Institute by Dr. Janov himself.

                She told me (much later in 2002 by which time she was living in Scotland, when she was in LA, visiting her son) that Janov walked up to her one day in 1971 and said “You’re fired”. At any rate, I feel blessed to have worked with her. No words can describe my appreciation for her. I lost track of her circa 2005; I’m not even sure if she is still alive. She was working at a library in a relatively remote part of Scotland.

                I had to leave the Bay Area and move back to Oklahoma in June 1974 to help take care of my sister’s 2, later 3 children. She is less than a year younger than I (we were born in 1950 and 1949) but I somehow knew that when she got the D-I-V-O-R-C-E from the dad of the children, that he would not be there for them, physically, emotionally or monetarily.

                I knew, not totally consciously, that if I didn’t step in, nobody would. It wasn’t the easiest decision to make, to leave north Oakland where I was living and FINALLY got a job but I KNEW I really had no choice.

                I was one hundred percent right. Those years I spent with my nephews and niece, however, cannot be taken away–their smiles, their laughter, their tears, and even the MASSIVE temper tantrum that my niece had when she was four.

                Thank God that I’d read a number of Janov’s books and had been in therapy. That one event in her childhood I believe “saved her life”. I allowed her to have the “craziest”, loudest temper tantrum. I was over at my sister’s house in Oklahoma City.

                My poor blessed sister was working 2 jobs, was dead broke. My mother was trying to help. She would have them over frequently for dinner or take my sister & kids out; but she was not a “babysitting grandmother” which I understand. The other grandparents on the father’s side certainly weren’t.

                At any rate, I was babysitting all the time, allowing my sister to have a few hours break from her children. Moreover, our dad died in February 1977. It was the worst of times, it was the best of times.

                It was a humid day in late-April, 1977, in Oklahoma City (a time of violent spring weather). For some reason I was over at my sister’s house and I immediately picked up on my niece, just turned 4 a month earlier. She was SO emotionally upset. I could FEEL it. It was like “dark swirls” of feeling were orbiting her, if you will, much oddly enough like a later afternoon thunderstorm brewing in the Oklahoma skies.

                My sister was in the kitchen and my niece started to “go” and I mean “GO!”. Somewhere, in her soul, she knew this was her opportunity to express this pain, sadness and frustration. This was her chance! The memory is still very vivid! I love her so much for this.

                Wisely, I sort of stepped out on the back porch with her and, by God!, you’ve never seen such a tantrum, such a primal, if you will. For less than a minute, my niece REALLY let it out. I mean just pure feeling, much of it probably pre-verbal. She went from being a very upset little girl to being the sweetest little girl. Indeed, she let it all hang out! There HAS to be a God!

                And, it was again like a post-thunderstorm in the spring in Oklahoma. The dark skies have cleared and are a deep blue, the birds are singing, the humidity is much lower and the wind has stopped blowing. No wonder, of my sister’s 3 kids, that she is the one who still loves Oklahoma.

                She is now a most beautiful woman, 45. She even got the best looks from her mom and dad. Guys still stare at her. She just has a presence. She has 2 kids from 2 marriages and divorced the dad 4 years ago due to his cocaine use. I’ve told her to just stay away from Okie guys. She’s doin’ just fine with a man but she doesn’t listen and has a boyfriend.

                In all fairness to her former husband and dad, he is truly a good guy, had a problem, is long over it, regrets that brief chapter in his life, is part of his kids’ life, is a loving dad and I’ve totally forgiven him.

                But my niece doesn’t “take sh*t” from guys, that’s for sure. She is SO cool, if you will.

                When my dad died in February, 1977, I was SO grateful for my learning how to primal, it made all the difference in the world to me. My tears flowed so profoundly and I was able to say “goodbye” to my dad over the months. I learned how much I truly LOVED him. He was FUNNY, smart, and SUCH A REPUBLICAN! He was also a Type 1 diabetic and died at age 63, but thanks, Dr. Janov, for your contribution to mankind, reminding us of that little 5-year old wailing away on the sidewalk before he has learned how to not cry.

                Now, to my concept that ideas actually create the EXACT concomitant emotions, well, I’d say this. In terms of three-dimensional time ideas come first. However, anyone who’s had a primal or two, has had the experience of “no time” so, in reality, they are simultaneous, but you obviously can’t have one without the other.

                I believe there are times that you follow the ideas to the feelings or vice-versa. It depends on the individual and the situation.


                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Fred: Wow!!! your comment says a great deal, and tell us a lot about yourself.
                  Just for now I want to respond, and tell you I will go through your comment again tomorrow, and respond more fully, as it’s way past my bed time.

                  Till tomorrow Jack

                • Phil says:

                  what an interesting story! It sounds like you made a huge difference in those kid’s lives as their uncle.

  15. Larry says:

    Daniel I much appreciate your contributions to the blog. The ideas and thoughts that you bring forward, and the way that you convey and express those, draws me in and stimulates me to think of how I perceive the primal process for myself. Your post has me recalling how after I first read the Primal Scream 46 years ago and Art Janov’s speculation of what the primal process was, I grew the hope of myself one day returning to the time before my split and becoming whole again. After I entered the therapy 10 years later, less and less I thought of my goal in therapy as being my arrival through healing at the time of wholeness before my split. It is my frustration at being able to meet my needs that propels me through therapy. It is my growing awareness of the early pains that blocked my ability to meet my needs, that propels me to resolve the pains, to heal and be more able to get what I need, wanting to go deeper and heal more as I grow more awareness of wanting and being capable of deeper integration into my life. Returning to the time of wholeness before my split isn’t my goal, maybe because the time of a so-called split may have been very early in my life and is a time that is hard for me to imagine.

    In the wild, predators learn to hunt and eat prey, and prey learn to fear and evade predators. The hunting and killing strategies and the fear and evasion tactics are healthy behaviours that help predator and prey to meet their needs and survive.

    You-tube videos show examples of when orphan wild baby animals are rescued from the wild, and to satisfy their need for companionship are initially raised together. The bond formed between them in infancy is seen to continue into their adulthood, even though they are predator and prey. For example, an orphaned baby goat and baby tiger are rescued from the wild and raised together initially, by humans trying to meet the physical and emotional needs of the orphans. Even after growing into adulthood, the strong bond of companionship between tiger and goat persists. After being orphaned, they were able to adapt to and survive in the conditions presented by the humans who rescued them. I wonder, is the love and friendship demonstrated between the orphaned tiger and the goat psychologically healthy in terms of who they were meant to be. At first glance their friendship seems endearing and wholesome. Yet in terms of what it is to be a real tiger driven to fulfill the need to hunt, or a real goat driven by a healthy need to fear predators, their friendship seems neurotic. I’ll return to this example later.

    I agree with your proposition that to be human is to be split, in the sense that I think that to be human means to be able to control our emotions and impulses when sometimes necessary in order to live together and co-operate to survive. I don’t think there was ever a time when humanity had no neurosis, although my guess is that there was less evidence of neuroses in the early small tribes of nomadic hunters and gatherers than there was later after settlement and the necessary organization into and succumbing to norms of behaviour obligated by large social hierarchies.

    I see the primal process as the recovery of the ability to meet adult needs, that ability having become frustrated during childhood development by painful trauma that blocked normal behaviour. I never think much, so far anyway, of myself returning to a time of wholeness before my split, or of humanity returning to a time when it was more whole. We are each and all products of the many circumstances we grew up in, now and in all generations past, just as in the example of the tiger and goat raised as orphans compared to being raised in the wild. For me, the degree of my neurosis is a measure of my frustration at being able to meet my needs. I wonder whether there was never the idyllic, non-neurotic time in human past that we imagine and strive to return to. I wonder whether the degree of openness, deep feeling, awareness, consciousness, empathy and sensitivity that can be recovered in primal therapy is a state of human existence unprecedented since the beginning of humankind. I wonder whether we are the first generation in all of human history who are able to experience such deep empathy, and whether it is because our civilization is giving us the comfort and safety to be able to, similar to how the orphaned tiger and goat living in the comfort and safety provided by humans were able to feel and remain bonded toward one another in a way that wouldn’t happen in the more dangerous,difficult life in the wild.

    • jackwaddington says:

      I didn’t think Daniel was suggesting, that to be human is to be split. If my memory serves me well, Art Janov suggested, that was a Freudian notion–not Janov’s. If Darwin is correct then we evolved and it is my deep contention that there was a time when we were not split (neurotic) I’ve suggested that we got split some 20 to 30 thousand years ago. How and why is yet to be fathomed, but Bernard Campbell, professor of Anthropology, Cambridge University England, did suggest how. I believe he did Primal therapy.

      The story of the baby Goat and baby Tiger is not natural and demonstrates to me that ones very early life, be it humans of animals, dominates the way we grow and reach adulthood. (Primal theory).


  16. Phil says:

    It does seem like we are all more or less split, and I thought that was what Daniel was suggesting.
    I guess that’s one of the things civilization has given us, and so it isn’t one of our intrinsic qualities.
    That urge to heal the split and become whole is probably universal. People are all doing it without necessarily knowing it, as it comes out in all kinds of unconscious behaviors. Just look at the self help section of book stores and all the different kinds of therapy. Those of us who were so split to the point of ruining our lives, were alert and lucky to find out about primal. I can really relate to the whole article as I reread it, Becoming more whole means getting in touch with my true nature and ability to enjoy life. I can’t think of any better goal, and it isn’t selfish as I think it benefits people who I contact, hopefully at least in some small ways. Phil

  17. Otto Codingian says:

    you me and him. cute little pretty humane film. if you want to have a couple of tears. love, baby, etc. brits. was on tcm.
    woke up today and had some tears about my black dog and his ending in 1995. very sad end and total stupidity on my part. horrible time of oldest child going wild and many other tragedies. weighs me down.

  18. Jack Waddington says:

    Fred: Like Phil, I feel you are a lovely uncle for those kids. It didn’t solve all the trauma of mommy and daddy leaving them, but at least they got a loving Uncle who knew enough to make their lives way better than otherwise.

    The story of your therapy is also interesting. There are many ex therapist practicing on their own; perhaps even having set up their own Primal facilities with others. As I sense it, all encouragements to put their clients into feelings and freely express them is valid providing that certain factors are not promulgated like pushing, overtly correcting, telling them what or how, and inadvertantly creating an unsafe place. If the feelings are left to the client and not the therapist then I feel it is useful.

    You seemed to have had that, from the way I read you. Sufficiently so that you able to “sit” for your nieces. My only crit was you stating that “thinking” proceeds ones reactions. For me it’s the feeling … thinking is a by-product of neurosis. Put another way: the brain is a mediator of the expression of ones feelings. That’s a whole other discussion.


    • FRED says:

      June 7, 2018

      I think the Big Primal Wave has long crested, rather like Hunter S. Thompson’s Wave of 1965-66 did on that hill in Las Vegas in 1971 (if you read the outrageous book or saw the film adaptation, “Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas”). (The so-called “Wave Speech”)

      In the 1970s there were “primal centers” everywhere, at least 7 in the Bay Area, places in SoCal, Denver, Austin, etc., but now there is a vastly different generation, two generations removed from the high and beautiful Primal Wave that as Thompson put it, “finally broke and rolled back”.

      For whatever reasons, nowadays, there is little urgency to access feelings. Maybe this isn’t necessarily a “bad” or “good” development? Maybe we’ve been in a kind of hibernation but will soon be emerging as a new Primal Wave, part of a larger New Wave that is “breaking in the wake of a passing ship” in which “every nation’s going to be shaken”, as Gordon Lightfoot put it in his pop-folk song, “Seven Island Suite” (1974).

      However, for those dreamers and their centers, the patina has long worn off and almost all the centers closed long ago. In California, after the 1980 disaster of the Center of Feeling Therapy, (much needed) laws were passed to restrict who could do psychological counseling.

      I think there are still some individuals practicing “Primal Therapy”, however. I receive emails and mailings from the International Primal Association.

      To embark on a long discussion on which was first–the chicken or the egg (the ideas or the feelings), I would have to create my own manifesto. Many things I would say would, however, contradict “mainstream primal theory and thinking”. This is not my purpose for becoming more active in the Primal Therapy-community.

      I do not want to get into a struggle or debate on this gentle place of sharing, the blog of the Primal Institute. Back in the early 2000s, after about a year, I was kicked off a Primal blog, then run by Pat Tongren, a former patient, for espousing this “heresy”.

      More recently I was booted out of a facebook group for similar ideas.

      This was all for the greater good, however. I’ve realized that my mission is not to convince people of something, although I do believe I am a teacher in some areas, as is everyone.

      Of highest import for me at this stage in my lifepath are the feeling-tones emerging into my awareness, feelings I believe are communications from the soul, maybe delivered via the Feeling Child.

      That is enough and a truly fantastic challenge, beyond words actually.

      • Sylvia says:

        Hi Fred. I enjoyed reading your posts. The chicken or the egg, hmm. I think feelings come first in our development. The baby’s development begins with a primitive brainstem to handle all the physical functions, then at 3 months the limbic emotional part comes online and by 3 years the frontal brain becomes operational with thinking. I find that after feelings my ideas tend to change and are greatly influenced by the exposure of feelings. I become more flexible and generally less rigid in my outlook and attitude and even in my approach to doing little tasks and trying new ways to do them. I think feeling can enhance or enrich and opens up the thinking process.
        Anyway, I think you are right, our feelings and sharing them in this forum trumps chicken/egg discussions any day.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: I don’t want to get into a back and forth with you on this blog for the blogs sake; but would love to continue in private.

        I will respond to a couple of things however. The breakthrough with the Primal notion was that life is about feelings and their respective expressions. It dispelled a great myth, in that it was able to see the difference between a genuine expression of a feeling and an “acted out one”. (See no further that the current occupant of the White House).

        It is this that gave the Primal notion it’s power. Perhaps the greatest of all our neurotic myths was written into the US constitution by implying the “pursuit of happiness” was real freedom.
        Happiness is not Persuadable. (Primal theory). Yet the neurotic world at large is still on that delusional path … and for a good reason.
        I do agree that the initial enthusiasm for Primal therapy has waned a great deal, and been replaced by methods that seem easier and promise the same. I did look at the site you offered.

        You state:- “Many things I would say would, however, contradict ‘mainstream primal theory and thinking’ “. I would be interested to know of a powerful contradiction to Primal theory. I have read many that purport to, but none convinced ME.

        I am beginning to see some contradictions within you For someone to be so feelingfull with a niece, then the seeming need to dismiss the Primal notion, comes across to me as contradictory. But hey hoo … that’s just me … putting in my ‘oar’.


  19. Margaret says:

    your story about your niece and you allowing her to have that tantrum moved me to tears. I guess because it shows so much respect for that little girl’s feelings, something I did not get much of in my childhood.
    well done, wish you all the best,

  20. Daniel says:

    Thanks Barry, Margaret, Larry, Fred and Jo for your replies.

    I agree with Larry’s interesting point that we pay a personal price for living socially (and of course also gain immensely from living socially).

    Regarding being human and being split, if we take it as a fact that having unconscious primal pain that drives us do think, feel and behave neurotically means there is a part of us which we’re removed from; and also that all human beings have such repressed Pain and therefore an inaccessible part; then putting these two facts together would imply that human beings are commonly split. If we further assume that other animals are not split that way it would follow that to be human is to be split

    • Margaret says:

      Sent from my iPhone

      On Jun 9, 2018, at 11:03 AM, Margot Meys wrote:

      is that just a hypothetical statement or do you really believe all humans are split?
      I think a child that has a loving childhood without traumatic events in a socially peaceful and natural environment would probably not be split.
      one factor supporting that point of view could be there are gradations in the splits, even between neurotics.
      and I do know people that are fairly healthy, even without therapy of any kind.
      now if the statement would say a majority of us humans is split I would wholeheartedly agree.

      • Margaret says:

        p.s. and I think animals can be split as well if they have traumatic experiences.

      • Daniel says:

        In a way, all humans are split. At least adult humans. The post I wrote will have a second part (if Gretchen will accept it) in which I continue from where I stopped my post. The part about the Primal, or the moment of the Primal, looks at Janov’s efforts to undo something which is effected by language and speech.

        If we turn that around it would seem that being introduced into the world of speech and language causes at least part of the split if not most of it. Once we have language which represents the world we are no longer fully in the world itself but rather always a bit removed from it, from Nature.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Daniel: I’m not sure exactly what you mean, when you write:- “The part about the Primal, or the moment of the Primal, looks at Janov’s efforts to undo something which is effected by language and speech.” If you mean that it is at the point of being able to speak, is when the trauma can take effect, then I certainly don’t agree.
          Also, if what you mean is, that at the point of being able to speak, is the point when we are able to think or assimilate, I’m not sure about that either. Certainly for me, speach began when i started to utter words like “Mamma” and “Dadda”, then as time progressed I got more and more words. I’m not sure I could be that coherent at the age of seven. (perhaps even now at 85 I’m still struggling to be coherent) Just enough to ask for things and make rudimentary words to show my pleasure, displeasure, ask for things and respond with “yes” and “no, when asked questions.

          Then on your statement “If we turn that around it would seem that being introduced into the world of speech and language causes at least part of the split if not most of it.”. For me the greates traumas were way before that time: the womb, and up until the age of 3. After that time I began to have mare control of myself, like when and where I could cry, shout, hit back. In any event I feel that Art was stressing it was the repression of the expression … not the feeling. There are a large number of feelings that can be expressed outside of language/speach.

          The one point I do agree with is “Once we have language which represents the world we are no longer fully in the world itself but rather always a bit removed from it, from Nature.”. Suggesting , as I see it, that speach was a slowly learned process that possibly occurred about the same time that neurosis set in. Said another way:- ‘speach and neurosis developed in tandem’.


        • Larry says:

          Your line of thought is interesting to me Daniel. Our species is physically weak and was doomed to early extinction had it not been for our big brain that helped us figure out ways to work together and enabled us to think about how the environment works and how to capitalize on it to our advantage. Because of our brains we became separate from nature, in the same way that a photographer becomes detached from what he is photographing, and our brains enabled us to become detached even from ourselves (l believe, and inspired by your comment).

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Larry: I’m hoping I don’t upset you with this response, but I couldn’t disagree more with this post of yours. I feel you have gotten it backwards, sort of ‘putting the cart before the horse’.

            Permit me to explain:- I feel STRONGLY that as a species, before we started down the road to neurosis (creating the split) we were NOT a weak creature, and didn’t have or need for a large brain. At that moment we started down that path, lots of deterioration began to unfold for us as a species. Examples: would be:- we then started to need a larger brain to figure out many things due to the ensuing “split”. Put bluntly, we now began to have a subconscious as well as the conscious mind. This, in turn, began to make us weak, and so we needed to enlarge the brain in order to survive. Perhaps better stated: being desperate to survive the brain now need to figure more things out and hence became bigger. This becomes an ever increasing process making us more weak, larger brain (to compensate for the weakness), and on and on and on until we arrived at the general state of affairs we have now … with never ending wars, less and less peace and then from this a bigger (neurotic brain) needing weapons to ‘so called’ defend ourselves. No other creature took this rout. What I would like to see happen and I strongly feel it is the only possibility, to get back to not needing all this stuff we’ve created as a result of this “split”.

            I know, this will come across as be “blowing the same old trumpet again” but the only way back to strength and putting us back into a single whole again, is by dismantling the things we’ve created that is keeping it all intact:- MONEY. I know this scares the shit out of most of us, but it would not be any where near as terrifying as most assume. It can hardly get more terrifying than it already is … which I contend means; ‘being well on the way to extinction’ … and sooner than is generally realized. There is a doomsday subliminal feeling among many of us that; “the end is nigh”.

            I’ve written an 18 page book (perhaps better stated, pamphlet), on just this. I will send it to anyone, giving me their email address, since I cannot send it via this blog.


          • Margaret says:

            although what you say is true for a big part of the childhood trauma, but not for all of them imo.
            there are big preverbal traumatic events which are not necessarily accessed by talking.
            of course talking is in general the best road into the feling zone in most cases, or if not talking the inner dialogue one has or the wording of feelings, like ‘I need you mama’, but I still do not see it as so all encompassing as to say language is the key factor.
            unmet needs are, and those are not necessarily a language thing.
            language is very important in the process, but is not exclusive as factor in my experience.
            sometimes like happened to me the other day, feelings just come up without even thinking of them, like when I stopped studying and laid my head down and the next second got overwhelmed with need for my mommy…

            or fear, such a basic feeling residing in our oldest part of the brain, there for me words keep me away from the feeling at some point.
            those huge fears find their way in scary dreams or otherwise.
            words are merely the feeling disguised by our conscious mind looking for a fake reason to focus the old fear on.
            we all have to pass those stages but the big fear feelings are often without words to them, for me anyway.
            too early, just fear of dying, no words existing yet at all…

          • Sylvia says:

            I go along with what you say, Larry. Because we are weaker animals, not having the strength of a monkey, who has 4 times the strength of a man, or as quick as a cheetah, to get away from danger. as massive as an elephant who are less threatened by other species, and so on; we have had to depend on our brains to manipulate our environment and survive.
            Even society reveres intelligence. We get rewards for it in the form of higher paying jobs and hence a more secure lifestyle. The duty too, I think of the more evolved brain is to repress those traumas that could destroy us and potentially save them for another day when they can resurface and be dealt with. And it is our brain that finally recognized a way and structured theory of how to do that. Ironically, though, I think the observation of the other animals and of children with their true sensitivity and spontaneous ways that helps us get in touch with ourselves. Maybe that is why kitties and dogs are such good companions.

    • FRED says:

      June 11, 2018

      We should stipulate as fact that the human race is “split” and move on so not to spend any more time splitting (no pun intended) hairs over technicalities which then would allow the conversation to get to the heart (pun intended) of the matter, that is, how heartbroken the psychologically split human race is.

      Another way to put it is that the conscious mind has abdicated part of its responsibility to the ego, due to overwhelming demands before adequate brain development.

      Janov, I believe also stated we live in a “half world” which is probably “generous”.

      Theoretically, the repressed “Pain” is not inaccessible.

      A program of regular primals (aka allowing the flow of feelings and fearsome thoughts), reasonably healthy lifestyle (no drugs, only occasional social alcohol, light eating to match caloric demands), conscious attention to the present moment at least from time-to-time, a reasonably loving living-and-work situation, maybe hobbies or creative outlets, a personal commitment to evolve and venture into the wondrous world of the psyche; and ideally “professional” care (Primal Institute or Center). This is better than Crest and regular professional care are for your teeth.

      I don’t think animals are split in the way humans are. They have no ability to reflect on themselves. Maybe dophins and other cetaceans have this ability in a very incipient way.

      Maybe even other mammals such as “Yeti” or “Sasquatch” have primitive self-reflecting psyches and that is one of the reasons that we’ve never “caught” one (along with their extremely highly developed senses such as smell and hearing)?

      Obviously, there can be “mean dogs” for example, that have been mistreated. One of my cats is very needy, another example. (He was thrown out of the litter by the mother cat and probably would not have survived without human intervention).

  21. FRED says:

    1) Being new to the blog on the Primal Institute, I wish I could read through all the previous blogs but simply an impossible task so most probably I will stay with this one and try to resist the temptation to own in on every “issue”, hold back, exercise some self-discipline.

    2) I think blogs should probably be closed to new responses after a certain time period. It seems the BlogWorld can quickly get overburdened. Possibly there should be a gentle suggestion by the Powers-that-Be at the Institute that people kind of collect their thoughts, possibly saved them on their own computers, say, on Word or WordPerfect (my preferred electronic word processor). This way people could correct errors, save replies, develop concepts more fully, even maybe edit out responses made “in the heat of the moment”.

    I am working on a new post to this blog thread, will post when flushed out.

    FRED de West Hollywood, PROUD (a bit of humor on this Gay Pride weekend) home of the first two locations of the Primal Institute.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Fred: your suggesting “kind of collect their thoughts, possibly saved them on their own computers, ……. This way people could correct errors, save replies, develop concepts”, is not the way I see this blog operating, and for good reason. We should just let it flow off the top of heads what is going on at any given moment. To do otherwise is counterproductive to psychology in general, and especially Primal. To do otherwise is to get involved in the ‘Ego’ game. Said another way; to be constantly aware of how we come across to others, and thence play it, to show our best side. It’s something I see Donald Trump permanently doing It’s an act-out and has consequences.


      • FRED says:

        I just have to say it is beneficial to me to compose on word processor, edit, correct typos and omitted words until I have something like the thoughts I wanted to post. I can also save them on hard drive. Works for me.

  22. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi guys: Just to jump in on the “split” thread. For me there are various names for this phoniminon, “split” being one, “neurosis”, “denial”, maybe even “repressed”. they all amout to the same thing.
    Larry’s sugestion: “we pay a personal price for living socially (and of course also gain immensely from living socially).” My take is that we humanas are naturally a social animal. I don’t feel there is a price to pay for it.

    I contend, we as a creature, were not always “spit from our consciousness”. If I am correct, then being spit is both unnatural and unhealthy. Janov said somewhere that Freud contended that to be human is to be neurotic/split: Janov refuted that notion. I tend to agree with Art.

    As I see Primal therapy, it is a means to mend that split ‘offness’. I do agree there are other animals that also get split, but there are the domesticated ones, and the worst case are the horses; then dogs. On this point I agree with Margaret


  23. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Jack, it does seem animals can get co-opted into our neurosis. This day of the Belmont Stakes as those horses are asked to do very unnatural competition for our benefit, to bet or party or make a business from. It’s not like they are pulling a plow to feed us.
    I see what you say about just blogging with whatever is on your mind. If we say something stupid or embarrassing, something that someone else disagrees with–that is all part of our therapy. We then feel those feelings triggered. I think by taking these risks we grow. Least, it has helped me to.

  24. Sylvia says:

    Thank you for saying that, Jack.

  25. FRED says:

    June 10, 2018

    I have believed this for more than a decade, re Primal Therapy that “We’ve only just begun”, as the Carpenters sang in 1970 (same year as release of “The Primal Scream”).

    “We” were intrepid pioneers entering: inner space, the (truly) final and always the only important frontier. We primal voyagers of the Starship Primalers whose 50 year mission was to explore (forgotten) familiar old worlds; to seek out old feelings and release old repression”. Enough of that somewhat silly comparison but you get the point.

    However, I would proffer that Janov barely stuck a toe in the Primal Pool, no criticism whatsoever, but he was not unlike some of the prophets of the Old Testament in that he foresaw, what he termed, Primal Man, and “post Primal” (I wonder what he’s doing tonight) even if he himself never quite made it to the Promised Land.

    It is up to us the living (Ayn Rand-tip-of-the-hat) to further advance experiential learning. I daresay what the world needs now exactly that for this is by far the most prescient method of personal growth; not to say the ONLY one. Reading, for example, is another but I’m sure you get this point also.

    The body WILL present the next information, in due time, in a form of a feeling and/or thought that we can recognize and assimilate.

    As we hone our abilities to learn experientially, that is, as the ego becomes more trusting and more flexible, we become more adept at the process in so many ways, thus we’ve only just begun.

    Here, I wish I could talk about some of my hundreds of primals (and indeed I KNOW primals vs. abreaction and self-deception) but that is for another time when I feel more integrated. I have been through enormous grief these last several months.

    Although It (not completely sure what I mean by this) is not “overnight” by any means, we largely control horizontal and the vertical and the timing, there is no Outer Limit controlling transmission of feelings into the conscious mind.

  26. Sylvia says:

    Hi, Fred. I always liked those weird shows too. Twilight Light Zone was a goody. Liked the one where a guy sold all his good memories at a pawn shop place and then wanted them back but they had sold them so he got someone’s else memories. I think as a result of primal therapy we get our specific memories back once they are untangled from the bad ones we repressed from childhood.

    Seems to me that Janov got fully-dipped into his childhood, more than a toe, so to speak, at least that is probably what he would have said. But maybe you are referring to the inability of the primal movement to convince the masses of the value of primal. But no matter.

    Sorry that you have gone through so much grief. No doubt when you are ready to feel and integrate more you will know. Take it easy, and thank you for sharing.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: It’s not surprising that Primal therapy did not take off, since for the average Joe, it was too far away to get it, and very expensive by most peoples standards. Most want a quick and easy fix and that is NOT what this therapy offers. The emphasis is on reliving old pain and few are willing to go there. I cannot say I blame them. Then again for that very same latter reason, some that did get to LA and start therapy, but when push came to shove, were not willing to go into pain.

      Then the other reason were the professionals, who merely wanted to ‘cash in on it’. So it got a bad press after the initial enthusiasm.

      My take is that it will get revived and seen clearly for what it actually is; as opposed to what most THINK it is.


      • Sylvia says:

        Maybe you are right, Jack. This might be the time when primal could take off. We seem to be more open as a society now and see talking about our problems is a good thing. Rather in the generation of the 50’s and 60’s and before everyone just buried stuff and tried to forget.
        First, though, I think the conventional therapist have to train in primal for it to catch on. Patients would want someone they trust to help guide them. Rather now, it seems many therapies are using reasoning rather than feeling or digging into the past to get better. Just change the way you look at things and that will make you better-type-therapy is being offered. The underlying pain is still there then. I think the therapists have to lead the way for primal to make a come-back in a big way. Though it does seem there are more books now about feeling therapy.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Sylvia: You got me a thinking and hit on a good idea there. I thought about a possible way for the training of psycho-therapist for the future.
          If only in the training, they would put the emphasis on just listening to their patients. Most of us seeking therapy have a great need to be listened to. Something that most of us as kids NEVER got or at best very little. That I feel would go a long way in training.

          The only time a therapist would need to intervene would be to encourage a patient to let them say ‘off the top of their heads’ all they needed to say. The only other factor would be to discourage the patient from needing analysis from a therapist. To just let the patient know they are ones that have the answers for themselves.

          The only other need in training would be to help their patients feel they could trust and safe from their therapist. I don’t know if this is the practice when studying psychology, to a pairing off of the students and allow for interaction between the two; with a trainer just supervising the process between them, and perhaps the trainer/professor would later give his reaction to them sitting for one another. Not as instruction, but more by way of suggestion.

          The whole course would need to be the history of psychology from Freud onward, but to seriously discuss and read Janov’s work. This might be the process to bring about training the primal notion into all that practiced psychology, especially since there are so few Primal therapist to teach the process at higher schools of learning.

          Sylvia: you got me onto a roll with this … thanks.


          • Sylvia says:

            Jack, this guy, a psychologist would probably agree with you about people being able to sit for each other without having a big amount of training. He shows the sorry state of some therapies. It is on you tube. If I do not get the link correct it is: ‘Why I quit being a therapist–six reasons’ by Daniel Mackler.


            • Jack Waddington says:

              Sylvia: I watched that link for the whole 30 minutes and thought Daniel Mackler hit on a major point about all the other mental health professionals out there. It convinced me that Primal therapy, and the theory backing it, is THE ONLY ONE.

              While listening I kept thinking; if only I could contact the guy and inform him about Primal therapy … not that I think he should go back to be a therapist, but because I felt had he done Primal therapy and enough of it, he would know how to conduct a therapy session by having dealt with his own trauma first, I felt because he’d not dealt with his own trauma was why he found being a therapist so traumatic and disturbing. In other words it was bringing up his own pain.

              One other thing he mentioned was Alice Miller, but obviously was not aware of the background from which she practiced and wrote her book. I found that very disturbing about Alice Miller. It’s sort of fraudulent … and pisses me off about her.

              Thanks for the link Sylvia.


  27. FRED says:

    June 11, 2018

    I agree. Primal Therapy was NEVER going to appeal to 99.8% of the masses, even if it were available on ability-to-pay. For one, the Psychological Establishment would rally to suppress any “serious threat” to their “power” but they should not worry. The overwhelming majority of the human race has ZERO interest in this type of inner exploration. Like it or not, it’s just the way it is.

    Take my sister whom I love dearly, for example. Her path could not be any more different from mine but I don’t judge her negatively. Her path is not better or worse than mine, simply different.

    As for statements by the very brilliant contributors Sylvia and Jack, if I had to bet, I’d say that Primal Therapy, as we know it, will continue to be at best on the fringe with little or no growth. In fact, maybe “our” mission impossible, should we accept the challenge, is to just keep it on life support, keep it alive for our children’s children’s children’s children.

    Wait that’s too far in the future. We better just stick to the grandkids.

    And wait some more. Cannot we do better than just pass the baton? I think so.

    So, here’s where “we” come in. We are not just the Old Guard ready to hand over the reins of Primal Therapy to the Millennials (this is a joke, for crying out loud–aka, primaling).

    First off, we should accept the premise that there has been substantial failure in Primal Therapy or, to put it more gently, it didn’t quite live up to our original expectations and we sense there is a lot “more” even if only because the book “The Primal Scream” somehow reminded us of this reality. To do so is being honest.

    Second off, it should follow then that we still have plenty of room and time to grow. We need to examine Primal Therapy and not be completely wedded to all Primal Theory as currently formulated, that is, the weltanschauung of Arthur Janov, PhD.

    I am not criticizing him. He is a hero in his own right. He gave us a wonderful gift but Primal Theory/Therapy is not a finished product.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Fred: I don’t see either the Primal Institute nor Primal center, doing a “power” play. Quite the reverse … for me at least.

      I agree that “the overwhelming majority of the human race has ZERO interest in this type of inner exploration”, until they start to suffer, form something unknown or undiagnosed. I too have two sister both with their own lifestyles, desires and ways of proceeding. That’s pretty normal.

      However I do fee (just me of course) that you don’t have a good grasp of Primal theory, and I base that on many of your statement. I did offer my email to the group and I would, should you wish, send you my brief rendition of Primal theory. If afterwards you’d be willing to give me your take on it I would gladly read it.

      Should we wish for a ‘quick fix’ for the kids of the future then we might try to convince all future parents of the viability of Primal theory, in order to prevent the damage to the kids of the future. Of course that would require a charismatic character to promote it … one that has more credibility than me.

      I am aware that you feel “We need to examine Primal Therapy and not be completely wedded to all Primal Theory as currently formulated, that is, the weltanschauung of Arthur Janov, PhD.”
      I disagree completely. The discovery came first, followed by Janov seeing if he could replicate the same event with other patient, and along the way needed to formulate a theory to explain it. It was form that basis, the therapeutic practice was formulated. I contend Primal theory is complete … a “finished product”. It’s the practice of the therapy that is ongoing.


  28. Sylvia says:

    Hi Jack, I think the frustration that Mackler with not getting enough support from his colleagues and supervisors was his undoing. Sounds like he was carrying too heavy of a load that would burn out anyone. I think it would be helpful for him to know about the primal clinics that do a supportive therapy–just in knowing they ‘have it right’ would be a good and supportive feeling.
    From what I see in other videos (150 of them) he doesn’t avoid his traumas. I saw one where he talks about himself. You can type in on you tube: ‘Why is it so painful to talk about childhood trauma? Former therapist talks about the taboo.’

    • Sylvia says:

      Sorry about the number of videos. I believe there are only 12 and not 150. I will slink back to behind the stairs now.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Syvia: Daniel Mackler, might well have confronted his traumas, but I don’t have a sense from that one link, he’d resolved any. Maybe he did , but so far, I don’t see where he talks about it.


  29. FRED says:

    June 11, 2018

    If the “kids” in the future need Primal Therapy, hopefully, there will be a place for them. I have enough faith that there will.

    It does beg the question, however, does the Institute and/or Center have “long term” plans, that is, for training new therapists? I am not privy to any of this but obviously, this will be a necessity.

    I can’t at this time worry too much. In the early 2000s, I considered getting a Masters at the University of Santa Monica which has a “Spiritual Psychology” program where graduates could be certified in the State of California as MFT, counseling and I think as a clinical psychologist. I even went to a couple of their open houses around 2001 and 2003. The idea was to get the Masters, then train to be a Primal Therapist.

    Obviously, I never went past this step. Money was one consideration, time another and to be honest, a conviction that maybe I would not feel adequate dealing with people as a “therapist”. Moreover, I would have had to do the 3 week intensive again, etc., etc., etc.

    As for Primal Theory I’ve read 7 of Janov’s books including The Book I think 3 times. I also read a number of the journals they used to publish and a FEW, emphasize a FEW of Janov’s emails to which I subscribed–all the science stuff, just not my cup of tea.

    I also read Conrad Stettbacher’s “Making Sense of Suffering”. I started one of Alice Miller’s, “The Drama of the Gifted Child” but stopped. I also read part of Paul J. Hannig’s book “Feeling People”. He has a center in Calabases or used to; I think he retired.

    I also read “Therapy Gone Mad” by Carol Lynn Mithers. I realize this isn’t “Primal Theory” but I defy any “primal person” to read this book and when finished NOT have a primal.

    For good or for ill, when I was a journalism major at the University of Oklahoma, Norman; I was able to write a 2-part series on the Primal Institute and Primal Therapy after coming to LA during spring break in March 1972. (Those days were fun!). It appeared in the college paper in early April.

    I have thought about Primal Therapy and Primal Theory “all the time” since my first introduction in July 1971. Trust me. It’s been an integral part of my search and Life-path. I’ve been able to synthesize “the place” of Primal Theory within my own world view.

    We all seem to need a belief system whether it’s Christianity, New Age religion, Primal Theory, Buddhism, etcetera, etcetera.

    It seems to be universal to man but suffice it to say, in my own mind, in my own subjective knowing, I’ve been honest integrating “Primal Theory” into my own larger framework of belief about the nature of personal reality.

    Actually, it was an absolute necessity to me but I have always approached this all important aspect with righteousness and the desire for truth, often challenging myself, not avoiding seeming contradictions, etc. It’s been truly a long and winding road and I am never prepared to say it is a finished product.

    Vis-a-vis the disappointment people have had in Primal Therapy compared to their initial hopes after reading the book, I believe is attributable to Primal Theory. Well, it may not be the theory itself that is flawed but more the limited framework in describing human experience.

    Ultimately, for so many people, it is (I hope this isn’t too harsh of a term and it doesn’t apply to me) a deal-breaker, not that they don’t receive any benefit from the therapy. No, they certainly do. Thousands of people I’m sure are better parents and many of them have improved skills in accessing feelings and the ability to cry. This part applies to me for certain–I’m not a parent.

    I am aware that the practice of Primal Therapy has evolved. For example, they don’t “bust” people anymore, I don’t think. Also, there have been changes in the Three Week Intensive.

    By the way, I wonder what Art’s doing now?

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Fred. I’m not sure you know that Art passed away in October or you are speaking metaphysically, that he could be residing with the angels, I’m sure he is teaching them all not to be so passive. According to his widow, France, he is with her everyday in her thoughts.

      • FRED says:

        ¶ Yes, I knew that Dr. Janov died but oddly, I didn’t learn until 1/03/2018, the day after I had my first session with Barry. In the session, having never been at the Primal Institute before as a patient, I naturally was curious. I asked him a few questions about Dr. Janov, not realizing he had been deceased 3 months.
        ¶ My saying “I wonder what Art is doing now” was a bit of humor, probably fell flat.
        ¶ I actually am working on “Channeling Art Janov”, a post for the blog but, at this point, I don’t have an inclination to post it.
        ¶ It is a little (a lot) off the subject and I don’t want to create that kind of controversy and get in “heated” debates with fellow & fellaw bloggers.
        ¶ I want to stay mainly focused on my profound grief which compelled me to seek out someone at the Institute in late December last year, in the first place.
        ¶ My wife died at home in our bed from cancer the day before Thanksgiving which, oddly enough, was the day before her (66th) birthday.
        ¶ I was having many primals, 3 or 4 a day. I felt I needed to seek out somebody who would understand what I was going through. At times the sadness was overwhelming. In the moments I was able to objectify my experience, I was astounded at what the psyche will present “for your (my) consideration”.
        ¶ As I don’t live very far from the Institute, just before New Years, I drove there, parked and noticed a guy whom I’d seen before, standing outside. It was almost dark but this was during Standard time and when sun goes down in LA even before 5:30 pm. Barry, kindly, invited me to call after the first of the year.
        ¶ Indeed I had met Barry twice, according to my diary, both times in early 2000s when the Institute was on West Pico Blvd, across from the golf course.
        ¶ That is interesting about France J.
        ¶ This isn’t a criticism of Janov but I recall reading a quote from him. He rather dismissed, say survival of “consciousness” after physical death, I think saying these beliefs in themselves were “defenses”; but now his widow claims to perceive him in her thoughts. Please! I am not in any way denigrating either person.
        ¶ If I had to say what I truly think, I would say that “we survive corporeal death” but this opens up a Pandora’s box of issues. I kind of try to shy away from Pandora. She is known to sleep around.
        ¶ When I see the name “Sylvia” I think of the song “Sylvia’s Mother” by Dr. Hook from 1972; it was on the charts during my “radical Primal Therapy” days. It is a sad and melancholy song, very good though. For me it evinces, THE Dominant Feeling Tone of my life.

        • sylvia says:

          That is a sad song. Good luck with your therapy and I hope it helps you through your grief. By the year ’72 I didn’t listen to much music. Mostly talk radio was what I was into. That’s where I heard a primal therapist talk about primal and I knew there was something to it. Went out and bought the Book and knew this was the answer I had been looking for; and it explained so much for me.

          • FRED says:

            Interesting. I think in those days there was an excitement. I truly felt it, maybe even overfelt it. In certain ways I’m convinced that the skills I learned in primal therapy saved my life but it is a moot point in that I’m positive that my Lifepath included my experiences in Primal Therapy/Theory. In other words, it could not have not been.

            • Sylvia says:

              I’ve believed in fate, and hold a belief that the universe is going a certain way and has a rhythm to it. That things seem to equal out as it were. But I also know things can turn out badly too, where one can really be out of sync with things–and that is no fun at all. This is speaking generally of course. The specifics are for therapy. Such abstractions! We will turn into philosophers–yikes! I am better at feeling and dealing with old memories to become more me.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Fred: Quote:- “We all seem to need a belief system whether it’s Christianity, New Age religion, Primal Theory, Buddhism, etcetera, etcetera.”. The word belief means we ‘don’t know’, but we are forever tying to make it closer to knowing that not knowing … Crazy!!! I feel believing in anything, is a wast of time. We use the word in the most unhealthy manner as in “Believing in God”. What’s so terrible about “not knowing”?
      The the other one. “Truth”. The only two things I know to be :”true” is that I am alive and I know what I’m feeling. The rest is irrelevant, … to me. Look no further than the Guy in the white house.


      • FRED says:

        June 12, 2018

        I don’t think we are philosophically and certainly not spiritually that far apart.

        For me, what I’m feeling, say, during the day, is emotional information which, like most humans, I long ago learned to skip over for “more important things” like “What’s for lunch?”, “That person at work is an a**hole”, “man, she’s a real looker” or “Who’s won that game? (Thank you Hedgehoppers Anonymous, a British group, 1965)”.

        Obviously, these are examples of the myriad distractions that “man” (or “woman” I suppose I should now say) has created to avoid “pushed-away-stuff” that he (or she) judges as threatening, unsavory, lewd, “crazy”, “not who I am”, or otherwise unacceptable.

        It’s almost as if we want to distract ourselves forever, until it’s too late which reminds me of what Arthur Janov said: “Neurosis is a life sentence”, yet the human race, not seeing the forest, only trees, for the most part allows “in” only the “best dressed” feelings.

        But, I daresay, after what I’ve gone through this past year, enormous personal trauma, the unfathomable grief; I have to believe that I am getting a bit better at “allowing” this stuff to surface.

        Sometimes I can see that I’m also getting more adept at allowing feelings. Fortunately, I live in a duplex (top half of a house) and don’t have to worry a lot about “the noise”, thus I can “primal”. I also have a number of pillows for muffling sound. Moreover, I’ve found that my “inner self” will “plan” a Big Primal for when I am getting in the car. Some of my most monster primals have been during these times.

        As far as people having a belief system, it just seems that most of humanity “needs” a set of beliefs for their own purposes. I know I do. To each his or her own.

        As far as “God” is concerned, for decades I have preferred the term is God-Goddess-All that Is

        I look around and I see Creation, such as birds in the trees, fishes in the seas, hives with their bees, dogs with their fleas, man with his knees, pods with their peas, etc; thus I posit a Creator.

        In my weltanschauung, they are actually one and the same. Unfortunately we are a broken-hearted race; Split, if you will; thus we don’t perceive the whole. Hopefully, Primal Therapy can help people to begin to integrate the disparate broken pieces and to get back to where they once belonged, Sir Paul!

        For me, and speaking only for myself; my position is that many of the ideas in Judeo-Christian and, to an extent Buddhist thought have validity albeit, they may be but tiny slivers of a much bigger (gargantuan) multi-dimensional reality but, as John Lennon sang “whatever gets you through the night”.

        Primal groups are a bit like “God” in my estimation because my definition of God is that God is a gestalt with a gestalt being defined as “a system where the whole is larger than the sum of its parts”. This dynamic is often operating, in my opinion, in Primal groups, thus the efficacy of groups in Primal Therapy.

        My friend, I would not ask you to believe what I believe but we are all on this Ship together and I dare say we are courageous in many ways.

        Look up the poem “Suzanne” by Leonard Cohen. Also, Noel Harrison (son of the actor Rex Harrison) recorded the best version of the song 1967. I like the line “all men will be sailors then until the sea is open”.

        My wife’s name happened to be Suzanne but everybody called her “Suz”.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Fred: You say:- “I don’t think we are philosophically and certainly not spiritually that far apart.”. Maybe so. So to see if it still applies. here’s my simple(ton) response:-
          1) Neurosis is 99% of all our problems.
          2) Feelings are everything; all else is dependent upon them and hence irrelevant.
          3) Thinking, without connecting it to the feeling that creates it, is neurotic.
          4) Our cultures are our self-made prisons where we incarcerated ourselves.
          5) Civilization is our curse, not our redemption.
          6) Learning is simple; teaching is complicated and convoluted.
          7) Once the problem is truly defined, it’s simple. It’s the solution that is complicated
          8) Economics is the quagmire which entrapped us.
          9) “Free market practices” are an oxymoron. It’s anything but free.
          10) Religion (believing) is the root of all evil; the dichotomy: ”good & evil”.
          11) To go from rules to laws, then laws to politics, then politics to money, is crazy.
          12) Politicians don’t have answers, only egos.
          13) I feel, therefore I am—exist.
          14) Childrearing is slavery: potential parents should fully understand this hardship.
          15) Life is about experiencing it—billions of moments—just like now.
          16) We created God in our own image–for reaqsons only to justify it.


        • Daniel says:

          Fred, very sorry to hear about your Suzanne.
          If I’m not mistaken, the Leonard Cohen line from his Suzanne is: “all men will be sailors then until the sea is open shall free them”

          • FRED says:

            June 15, 2018

            Thank you for your compassion, Daniel, and your letter.

            Obviously, I am very grateful to Janov for his contributions to the “Field of Grief”. I could call it “pain” but grief works as just well.

            This grief has been my close “friend” since my wife went on hospice over 7 months ago. It comes to me, on average 3 or 4 times a day.

            When The Sadness makes itself known, I sometimes–in unguarded moments–think “I’ll call my mother” (she adored my wife and vice versa) but of course Reality immediately checks in, reminding me “mom’s been dead 3½ years (and probably couldn’t have talked to me the last few months of her life but she did have a pretty good run, 97-plus years).

            Occasionally, I am able to schedule a session at the Primal Institute and there at least I have someone to talk to. I have high hopes for the “longer-term future” in therapy at the Institute.

            Most of the time, though, when I’m not out working, I’m home alone. I have little desire to meet women or get on a dating site like eHarmony (I signed up but that was all).

            At this time, I seem to prefer the company of our-now-my 3 cats and the “memories” of my wife in the apartment (she worked from home the last 4 years of her life). I have no desire to leave. I realize that for many people, moving is therapeutic but for me, I would spiral into unnecessary despair.

            Occasionally, I can call my sister and say “I’m having a really bad day” (she loved my wife) but I feel I cannot overburden her. She is retired after 35 years or so of teaching special ed and reading skills (this required Master’s-level training). She does still consult, substitute and tutor part-time but she mainly enjoys her family and her many friends. Her life is full with grandchildren, her stepchildren, her husband, countless friends and the normal life-problems and dramas. I totally salute her and her lifestyle; she surely paid her dues, raising 3 children without the father and with very erratic child support.

            I’ve come around to seeing that being alone is beneficial. I have a new, more authentic and profound understanding of it. This and the grief so often bring on some very intense, sometimes rather long primals. The “Primaling” itself is quite humbling and this brings on a more honest and unadulterated emotional state.

            I sometimes cry very hard and profoundly and try to FEEL it. To access these feelings (primaling) has been a school in the reality of my and, by extension, the human psyche.

            The thoughts are: “I feel so alone with my sadness”; “I miss her so much”; “Please, come back”; “I love you so much”; “I’m sorry for _____”; “I can’t make it without you”, “Nobody loves me”. This is absolute proof to me that it is thoughts that bring on the concomitant feelings with their tears and gift of assimilation.

            Besides primaling, I fast, a few days here, a few days there. For me, fasting is essential in that my body can be given a rest whereby it can rid itself of toxins and unneeded fat which then frees up the psyche to present “emotional toxins” for “my consideration”. Fasting is the forgotten remedy of the Western World.

            It is truly amazing what “we really feel”. At its essence, it’s very “childlike”, simple and unfettered with intellectual modifications and explanations whether it’s Primal Theory, the practice of Primal Therapy, world economic systems, politics, etc. Emotions are the language of the soul. We should listen.

            Where’s this all leading to, for me?

            I cannot say for sure but sometimes I feel that there is a “next” level. Perhaps more actual childhood memories will be experienced, but there is also a kind of preternatural or even other-worldly aspect to it. It isn’t scary but it’s certainly not what we normally term “daily consciousness”. It seems more like an “altered state” and with it there is a kind of increased synchronicity of events.

            Again, thanks, Dr. Janov. Your book and ideas on therapy were life-changing and have contributed immeasurably to the world’s healing.

            To all considering the therapy I would say “Do it if your intention is to develop better “feeling skills such as learning to cry” and to “roll back repression”, to release the feelings that come from doing so.

            However, I would counsel all potential patients to not get too wedded to Primal Theory because, although it is a very good explanation of “how we got here”, it doesn’t pretend to answer the question of why we got here, but that’s okay.

            I believe with all my heart that if people going into Primal Therapy would lighten up a bit, not feel too powerless after reading the books but focus on the methods and the feelings that they will be more “successful” in actually accessing feelings, that is having Primals.

            Oh, and one more thing. At the bottom of it all is love. We loved our parents or whomever raised us. We just didn’t get all our myriad needs met but the love never died. It just got buried a bit. It can be liberated. Do you really think “God” would allow us to be in a prison with no way out? I don’t think so. We have the innate ability to integrate and assimilate so, “Oh ye of little faith”, look at the lily in the field and recall this Beatitude: “Blessed are they who mourn for they shall be comforted”.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Fred: I grant that we should not nor need not take Primal theory onto consideration. It merely says in a general way what happened to most of us and how. we definitely need to be specific about what happened to each of us personally.

              You last paragraph did kind of befuddle me. Since I am an out-and-out atheist. I’m neither beholden to any ancient scriptures, nor any “super power” outside of myself.


  30. Margaret says:

    I just saw, partmm of a longer documentary, an item about socalled ‘ambassador’ dolphins. they are dolphins that leave their group for some time, to look for human contact seemingly. some of them go from harbour to harbour.
    this particular one was one a French lady meetts every year at the same spot, more or less same time, and swims with and spends time with until finally it leaves.
    that is intriguing, and seems to be happening on other places over the world as well.
    animals have something so pure about them, I always get touched by them.
    there was also a lynx in the program, they start turning up in Europe again here and there.
    it had two kittens, playing with loud groans and hisses, and mommy lynx purring so loudly.
    I loved that sound, I thing it would be much more relaxing than all the new age music I have heard, just big cat purrs, mmmmm…
    love my home tigers purring as well, smiley, very relaxing and uplifting at the same time…

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: My take about animals is that they are way more feeling full than we are, and subliminally it draws many of the more feeling full of us, towards them. I sure sense all that coming from you Margaret.


    • FRED says:


  31. Margaret says:

    did anyone else get a second time the mails to subscribe for the blog?
    they seemed a bit different, subscribe to Primal or something, wonder if they are genuine and safe???

    • Sylvia says:

      I haven’t gotten any mail like that so far, Margaret. Your documentary about the dolphins sounds nice. There’s so much to learn about our fellow animals.

  32. This is some bat shit crazy stuff! This is for you, Z. Hope you enjoy it.

  33. Otto Codingian says:

    hurray mankind1 same thing over and over with same bad results. insanity. bad leaders like trump and rocketman. 3D 1080p WW1 Assault – All Quiet on the Western Front 1930 or is it, survival of the fittest (luckiest). i am not sure why i am watching these horrible war flix now. no tears and i really don’t feel the fear much. although i am familiar with the fear of being murdered, i have put a wall around that one.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: What FUCKIN madness Ggeezzuuss !!!!!!
      I watched that clip and was inwardly screaming throughout the whole thing.
      The other piece of madness was that I continued to watch it all the way through.

      We seek peace through war and killing. There’s a figure of speach for it if someone will tell me what it is … may paradox????

      Last thought:- who and how was the camera-man, and was able to film it, through it all????


      • Sylvia says:

        They showed this movie at our high school when I was a senior. I remember a scene where a soldier was reaching for a butterfly. After making the movie, Lew Ayres, playing the main character, became a pacifist, he was so affected by the part.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Syvia: Was it a movie made with actors, or was it actually war footage???

          Meantime, thanks for replying.


          • Sylvia says:

            I’m pretty sure it was a movie, but had that jerky news reel quality.
            Off to bed for tonight. You fellas have a good day and no fighting amongst the day-shift over there. (Ha)

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Sylvia: Ok … I will refrain from using my fist … but can I still put my oar in????? 🙂 🙂


  34. Otto Codingian says:

    love that lennon video. wish i had the power to stand up to the crap. but someone put kryptonite in my baby bottle.

  35. Daniel says:

    Margaret, I didn’t explain myself very well in that Language comment. I meant that the world of language removes us from Nature, from reality as it really is. I like Larry’s metaphor of the photograph which is not the thing itself but a representation of the thing.

    I think Janov tried to undo that. You have probably noticed that many times the Primal begins with a vague sensation or feeling, that we begin to speak and say whatever comes to mind, until we blurt something out which feels like the truth. Then, the more precise and intense the feeling becomes the more language recedes to the background. It is no wonder that after such an experience we feel more whole, as if the split is undone.

    Unfortunately, it doesn’t last. Sooner or later language returns to the picture thus removing us once again from things-as-they-are. It’s unavoidable because we are creatures of language. In therapy we need both, first we must get to the feeling as deeply and truthfully as we can, and then we need language to elaborate its meaning for us.

    In retrospect, perhaps Janov was too optimistic that the undoing of the split can last in a speaking organism, but still he has a huge credit for grappling with the split itself, for advancing our understanding of it, and for providing us with means of getting closer to our truth (means which we have with us for the rest of our lives).

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Daniel: you say:- “first we must get to the feeling as deeply and truthfully as we can, and then we need language to elaborate its meaning for us.”
      It seems to me you’re saying we have a task to “get to the feeling”. I don’t think, that is what’s required at all. We let the feeling come up willy-nilly, then the only requirement is to EXPRESS it, as best we know how.

      Should I be wrong I will accept being corrected.


      • Daniel says:

        Jack, I think we mean the same. It varies from one person to the next: for some it just comes up; others do something, such as speaking whatever comes to mind until something coalesces into a full feeling. But again, we mean the same.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Daniel: Broady speaking you are perhaps right “we mean the same”.
          Of course, if there seems to be nothing going on, then to just “free associate”, via speach is all we can do. As I see it that is more often NOT the case. Certainly the value of the group is that one person saying something can bring up something for others. For those into a feeling, most respect that, and let the person do their thing.

          It’s a relatively simple process, unless the person ‘on the floor’ is grossly acting=out the feeling.

          What got me into the back and forth with you was, that you seemed to be laying a lot of emphasis on speach. I am aware that is sometimes the first step, but not the major or only step.


          • Daniel says:

            Jack, my emphasis on speech was as something that removes us from Nature. And, of course we are creatures of language

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Daniel: Sorry if I mis-read you. I agree speach has that tendency to remove us from our nature.


              • Larry says:

                Or even more generally, a mind (a species with such a mind) that can imagine its world through abstractions, a mind that can contemplate itself and convey meaning and impressions to others through symbols, such as art, or writing or math, is a mind that can conceive of itself as apart from nature or even apart from its own feelings, I beleive. Having such a mind comes with being Homo sapiens. Our mind confers a window through which we can become either more detached from or more connected to our world, nature, ourselves, our feelings. It is a mind that gives us the choice. To reiterate in another way what Daniel has said (I think), to be a species with a mind that doesn’t offer that choice is to not be human.

                Jack I’m not offended. I have no desire to try to change anyone else’s opinion. All are revelatory.

                • Jack Waddington says:

                  Larry: I don’t agree. We homo sapiens evolved from being a none neurotic creature to one we current are:- VERY NEUROTIC. We were not always that way.

                  It might come as shocking, but a lot of the baggage happened after we became neurotic. When was try to fathom what we were like, before we became neurotic (split) is at best; guess work.

                  So here’s my guess.:-
                  We did not have mathematics or science
                  1) We didn’t need to have a purpose in life:- “meaning”
                  2) we did not have art:- it being the stimulation of feelings. We were fully feeling.
                  3) We did not have culture, we are all one “HOMO sapien”
                  4) We did not need education. We just learned, as do all other creatures
                  5) We didn’t need money and it’s resultant economics
                  6) We did not need government and/or laws. so criminality didn’t exist.
                  7) We didn’t have sport:- Competition. We are naturally social and co-operative.
                  It takes one to make a CONCEPTUAL LEAP to conceive all this. I am not the first to make this leap … nor will I be the last … however, such thinkers ARE rare.
                  We sapiens will NEVER achieve PEACE until we are all fully feeling-full


    • Margaret says:

      I can relate to all you wrote in the last comment.
      but I also think there is a tendency to see the ‘split’ as an all or nothing thing, like after a primal we go back to the split unavoidably so because of the language, in a way that happens but in another way I do not entirely agree.
      I see the split situation more as a continuum, in which we by primaling gradually restore more connections, reactivate more neural pathways which have been blocked, and thus bit by bit regain more of our feeling self.
      parts of our experiences in the past may still be blocked but other parts open up and function and integrate and make us gradually more unified or whole or whatever our original natural capacity can be called.
      we will never ever be the persons we could have been if our childhood was not bad enough to cause those pathways to be (partially) blocked, as we miss the experiences of how we could have grown up with more intact feeling systems, but our brain is pretty flexible and I feel so much more myself these days than I ever felt.
      at peace is a way to describe it, certain about how I feel at a certain moment, able to connect to old pains a lot of the time, able to come up for myself and to take care of myself and my life and others, able to laugh and cry and love with a deeper quality than I did before therapy, when my life was hectic emotionally in a neurotic way, a frantic search for affection and peace of mind which never came unless temporarily induced by illegal substances…
      if we use the split as an image, my split has been healing and there is scar tissue and some spots that are still open wounds, but overall things are so much better than they once were.
      no more wide open gap, just some sore spots that still long to be healing…
      so in short, i do not feel ‘split’ anymore really, only damaged and in a healing process which might never be finished in my lifetime but as opposed to other chronic ailments improves instead of going worse.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Margaret: I totally agree with everything you say in this last post of yours.


      • Daniel says:

        I agree with you, of course, that therapy helps. After all this is my line of work and I believe in it. However, I think the split between the things-as-they-are and things as we experience them is an eternal problem.

      • sylvia says:

        Well put, Margaret, especially the phrase: “…we miss the experiences of how we could have grown up with more intact feeling systems…” I don’t think there is a day gone by that I haven’t thought of if I could have only enjoyed more what was going on if not for all the insecurities and failings to interact more confidently with would-be friends and situations.

      • FRED says:

        Silly me, I keep thinking that “we” have everything to do with the speed and timing of events at least within our personal reality including The Split.

        Okay, I retract that statement. Obviously, many good things in life require patience and the ability to wait until the “time is right” or “the funds are in the bank” or “the case is finally settled” or “she (or he) comes to his senses”, etc.

        I of course cannot comment on your subjective experience but I can on mine. Cutting to the quick, I know that for much of my life I’ve procrastinated, turned away from opportunities probably out of fear, mainly. The Split took a low priority too often.

        Regarding healing The Split, that is, committing experientially to integrating the “feelings” that created it (I will stipulate we all are familiar enough with Janov’s Primal Theory), I’ve been a piker for sure, but I can’t go back. I can’t beat myself over the head for being a coward or hypocrite. I have to forgive myself, love myself, even if these are attitudes and behaviors weren’t exactly the theme of my childhood but I’ve found that to do this, I actually get some relief and feel a bit more optimistic.

        I have to believe that over the years that maybe I have learned a thing or two, developed an inner skill or two, had a meaningful profound experience or two.

        Maybe, just maybe, I’ve learned the fundamental principle that the only thing suffering can do towards my growth is teach me how not to suffer and God knows, I’ve suffered a lot in this life.

        But now, with all the decades of experiences to educate and guide me; having had countless primals including a world-shattering one some 21 years ago; having experienced Real Loneliness, having known Real Grief, I can have a lot more input as to the speed and intensity of my Experiential Plan to assimilate The Split.

        For one thing I know now that happiness is not an option. For me, it represents a compromise that will assure me that The Split will be there on the day I die for I recall Janov saying “neurosis is a life sentence”.

        Pray for me, pray for Wisdom for all the Primal Journeyers on this blog and everywhere else. If you don’t “pray” per se, wish me a bon voyage and give each other encouragement and constructive feedback.

        • sylvia says:

          The split no longer matters much to me. Since I’ve gained access to feelings and know when to feel as long as it isn’t too much, and am finally able to enjoy things and be sensitive and not knowingly inflict any pain on someone or sabotage myself from having a decent life, what more can we ask for? For me the split is simply a shut down of bad experiences that blunts our perception to the good thereafter. No doubt it is more complicated….

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Fred: Bon voyasge, … and keep writing.


  36. Otto Codingian says:

    not sure if this melody is actually this same song. but whatever, it makes me incredibly sad. The Beatles – You Like Me Too Much

  37. Otto Codingian says:

    reminds me of my murdered friend paul, from my youth. we did not discuss music, we listened to it, sometimes high. bye bye buddy

  38. Otto Codingian says:

    i remember sitting in his living room, as he turned me on to white dove. golden years.

  39. Otto Codingian says:

    i think most of my friends deeply enjoyed music. i can see their joyous faces in my mind

  40. Sylvia says:

    Otto, sad memories for you, but cherished ones too.

  41. Renee says:

    Daniel, you say that, “the split between the things-as-they-are and things as we experience them is an eternal problem”. My question for you is who gets to decide what “things-as-they-are”?

    • Daniel says:

      Hi Renee,
      Nobody gets to decide what ‘things-as-they-are’ are. Their very nature is that they are unknowable. This is why being is partly – some will say ‘mostly’ – mysterious

  42. Margaret says:

    I have the impression in your reply you talk about another kind of split, the impossibility or difficulty to find out what is really there in general, a philosophical question of all times.
    that is another matter altogether imo of the inner ‘split’ we try to mend or bridge in primal therapy.
    as s
    Sylvia says, it originally served to keep us from fully feeling very painful experiences, and thus blocked neural pathways or at least distorted them.

    I feel when we make progress in a primal way, we start to recontstruct bridges ovver that gap, neural bridges and emotional and cognitive ones.
    once we have gained some access the mending gradually gets easier, as we keep making the bridge stronger and easier to access.

    my point being is the healing has not to do with what really exists out there being differennt than our experience, while that can be true of course and much worse while being split.
    but the mending is a matter of making our inner processing of what we perceive and feel more integrated again, more free of the intervening tension and distortions of o
    unfelt pain struggling to be accessed and coloring our perceptions of the world.

    the split is a construct of an inner process being severely affected, and the healing does restore some of our natural capacities to process what we experience in life .

    that process is what is being mended, partially at least, and that is a different kind of split than the one you mentioned in your last reply imo.


    • Daniel says:

      Margaret, you’re right that it is not exactly the same split. However, when we speak of “Nature” do we also mean “Human Nature”? In other words, isn’t the split that occurs between actual reality and what is perceived by the senses and further effected by language, also applies to psychic reality?

      If we look at it from this angle, then the experience of the Primal may be described as an attempt to undo such a split, to sort of bypass the obstacles (including language) separating us from ourselves, our past experiences as well as our true nature.

      Because such a split is basic to human existence perhaps it can be undone only briefly, in Primals, in ecstatic or mystical experiences. Also, it would mean that the search for truth and feeling whole is endless, and therefore becomes part and parcel of being human is.

      As you write so clearly, over time, after many encounters with our old repressed feelings, we become more real and more at home within our personal home. But in my opinion we never completely and permanently undo our various splits.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Daniel: just to put my oar in. I tend to agree with Margaret and I am not quite sure I know exactly what you mean.
        My take is:- We split the mind when we become neurotic. ie. the conscious & the subconscious become SPLIT into “the conscious and the subconscious”. The healing process is bringing more and more of the subconscious back into consciousness, (less and less of a spit in other words the mind becoming more whole, and thereby less spit and more healthy. It’s a process and not a goal. “Is it ever complete?” is the wrong question. The damage that got inflicted upon us, is now our conscious history. That will never go away, but we patients are now more aware it
        Nothing more IMO.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Correction:- I stated:- “We split the mind when we become neurotic. ie. the conscious & the subconscious become SPLIT into “the conscious and the subconscious”.
          It should have read:-
          “We split the mind when we become neurotic. ie. become SPLIT into ‘the conscious and the subconscious’. ”


  43. Margaret says:

    nice to hear.
    I think being kind with ourselves is a good sign of getting healthier.
    that is what for me seems to have had the most impact on my life in a positive way, that I generally feel ok about myself these days, despite often still having to face all kind of hardships in my life.
    that is the split that seems to be mended bit by bit, not to be the continuous critical parent of ourselves anymore, not to be the kid frantically trying to figure out what he or she is supposed to do in order to do the ‘right’ thing, in order to please.

    • FRED says:

      Exactly, we have to be better parents to ourselves. I believe this does have an impact “chemically” at least briefly and I believe (maybe contrary to Dr. J) that over time, a new habit of making it easier on ourselves can be developed.

  44. Margaret says:

    if any retreater reads the blog, hi and have a good retreat.
    wish i was there but am ok here this time as well. plan to come next summer if nothing big intervenes!!!
    enjoy the retreat rock ‘n roll, its ups and downs, sigh, miss you all,

    • Larry says:

      Hi Margaret. The retreat was over on Friday. Barry’s and Gretchen’s groups were on the weekend. I have a session with Gretchen on Wed and fly home on Thurs. As always in the past, the retreat was again a unique and life altering event. It being held at a new location made this retreat as memorable as my first one. There seemed to be more opportunity for community building at this retreat, or at least I more easily felt included, which is quite a nice change for me. Perhaps that feeling of being included helped to open the door to the dark empty cavern of chilhood aloneess in me that erupted like a volcano of crying and screaming in Barry’s and Gretchen’s group. Asthma that has plagued me for the last couple of months has now subsided quite a bit so far.

  45. Phil says:

    The retreat is over now. I arrived back home last evening and went back to work today, where I am now It’s a little hard after such a wonderful event. But I guess all good things have to end eventually.


  46. Margaret says:

    hi Phil,
    wow, time flies, I had not expected it would already be over!
    so to hear it was a good experience once more, I am happy for you.
    how was the new location? (easiest question of all the questions crossing my mind)

  47. Phil says:

    Margaret, I liked the new location at Big Bear Lake. It was interesting for me to see as I had never been there before. There are a lot of outdoor activities in the area, like hiking, which I enjoy. The water level in the lake is low, making swimming unattractive so it would have been better if that wasn’t the case. It’s at a high altitude and the air is clean and fresh. The facility is nice. There is a lot of room, so it was possible to be 2 to a room, or even have a private room. The food could have been better, but I thought it was OK. There were activities we could do at the retreat center. like archery, basketball, and “the leap of faith, which involves climbing high on a tree and jumping to grab a rope dangling far out of reach, with a safety harness attached. I didn’t try that as I wasn’t around when it was happening. There is a zip line too. The staff was really helpful and friendly. I think it was a good alternative location for the retreat.

  48. Margaret says:

    thanks, that makes my mental image of that place a lot more detailed!
    that leap of faith sounds like a real challenge!
    How was the retreat otherwise for you?
    no need to reply of course if you don’t feel like it at this moment.

    • Phil says:

      More for your mental image: the place is high in the mountains; I think it’s at 6700 feet. The road to get there has very many curves back and forth.. There are many tall pine trees all over, and there is a national forest bordering the lake.. In the winter it is popular for skiing. Although the water level is low, the lake is still quite large.

  49. Phil says:

    It was a very good retreat for me. I had a lot of deep feelings, including some concerning what happened with my brother, which I’ve written about here.

  50. Margaret says:

    I always interpret that quote from dr. Janov about neurosis being a life sentence as referring to the people who do not go through a healing process like PT and are stuck with their unprocessed old feelings.

    wow, sounds like both fun and very useful.
    good it did have a positive effect on your asthma as well.

    Phil, thanks for the extra descriptions.
    I am so sorry about all the pain you must have had to deal with. so good to know you were among friends.

    I long to go to next summer’s retreat, while at the same time I dread the sad and lonely despair I still have to face. but it feels like the right time then for another retreat if all goes well.

    by the way, again a world championship soccer with our Belgian team, the Red devils, who won their first match against Panama.
    I did not follow the game, as it would have been less fun than the last time, Belgium against the USA with Phil as a commentator in an American bar, haha, which was very nice.
    sorry we won, guys…
    not my cup of tea to be honest, soccer, in reality, but the pretending was fun and after a while one gets sucked in anyway, a little bit for a little while…

    • FRED says:

      June 18, 2018

      Once in a while a bar is a SPIRITUAL PLACE! In August 2009, my late wife and I went to Puerto Vallarta, México which is a great vacation destination. We arrived at Westin Resort & Spa and our room wasn’t ready so we repaired to the bar.

      There is SOMETHING about the west coast of Mexico below Baja California.

      I had 2 cervezas. They upgraded us to a junior suite. We had such fun that week. It was during rainy season and on a couple nights the skies performed a wild, exciting lightening show.

      I perceived Janov, when saying that neurosis is a life sentence as basically cradle-to-grave reality due to repressions, etc. Maybe pre-birth-to-grave. I think he implied that Primal Therapy was the cure. I’m not sure anyone has realized that.

      In a few days I am going to post a manifesto, not denigrating Janov, Primal Therapy, Primal Theory with suggestions for Tier 2.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: Yes Janov included in the title of “The Primal Scream: The Cure for Neurosis”.
        In the one article I wrote for the blog I explained exactly what Janov meant by the word “Cure” you should have access to it on the RHS of the home screen of the blog. A list of all prior articles, so you should be able to go and read it more fully than my brief rendition of it here.

        In essence the ‘cure’ for not fully feeling (neurosis), is to get back to being able to feel. Not necessarily to have felt all the old feelings. therein is the rub.


        • Jack Waddington says:

          Fred: Just checked; my article is not there anymore. Should you wish I think I have a copy somewhere and I’ll send it to you in an email should you give me yours.


        • FRED says:

          July 7, 2018

          I think that Arthur Janov’s saying that “neurosis is a life sentence” should simply be understood without any attempt to spin or “interpret” it. After all, participants on this blog have a pretty good understanding of Primal Theory.

          On the other hand, it is my opinion that the “unneurotic person” has not graduated from any primal center.

          It is just too easy to “get somewhat better”, maybe a lot better, learn how to sometimes cry, and then just go along merrily, merrily down the stream because, as you know, life is but a dream.

          Most of the “out there” is designed, albeit mostly in the mass unconscious, to promulgate “neurosis”.

          This is not a morally “bad” thing, in my opinion, but obviously a “(very) good thing” if you accept Janov’s theory that repression is the second level of nature and essential to the survival of mankind.

          It would follow then that virtually the entire civilization of mankind is really a web of groups and individuals engaged in a grand plan to “get us through the night”.

          You know. There are different traditions and beliefs in different countries, within different groups, etc., but it is all at least half (Janov’s “half world”) based on, what Janov called, “intolerable (psychological) pain”. If indeed the unconscious is a repository of un- assimilatable feelings, then it is no wonder that everything is in play due repression’s bidding; no wonder that the institutions are largely designed with the subjective knowledge of Primal Pain.

          However, I believe that the “lesson” of Primal Theory is that the adult human has the ability to integrate what was intolerable to the neonate, the infant, the toddler, the child, the juvenile. This is good news, or maybe as the late Dr. Janov might say “Real hope”.

          But right now right now I’m kind of hurting. I’m gonna go get me a medium pizza and diet Coke!; and tonight I’m gonna look for a good revenge movie on On Demand. I can put off my Primal salvation for one more day, right?

          Have a nice long night of the soul, aka, life.

    • William Walters says:

      I take the good doctor’s statement as meaning we are fundamentally split, to an significant extent our life course has been altered.

      Primal Therapy gives one hope of reversing it all and that we have a lot more say in our salvation.

      No matter how cynical one is about the state of affairs, PTh gives one the TOOLS, at least some of them. I cannot emphasize too much how my ability to (at least at times) access my feelings has “saved” me—today, for example.

      Today the pain was so immense, the grief so all-encompassing that I turned west on Mulholland Drive in Los Angeles and had a major Primal. I cried and I cried and I cried.

      I am, however, probably an heretic to Primal Theory as my Knowing is that feelings follow ideas, ideation—not the other way around.

      This actually gives people a much vaster framework in which to dismantle repression.

      Believe me. The secrets to the (inner) universe lay there, waiting to be discovered.

      The location is basically out of 3-dimensional time but MORE important is the Feeling child waiting for freedom.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        William: Not quite sure which ” good doctor” you are referring to

        I do disagree with your statement:- “I am, however, probably an heretic to Primal Theory as my Knowing is that feelings follow ideas, ideation—not the other way around.”.
        It depends what exactly you mean by ‘Ideas”. I never got into a feeling stemming from an idea, but then that is just me. Following a feeling I get “insights”. If you prefer to call that an Idea, then I feel that it misleading.

        “Primal theory” is merely an explanation; like all theories, for why there is the ability to relive an old feeling occurs at all. If you have another explanation then tell us what it is, and I for one will consider it. If you are suggesting it is not “proven”; maybe so but I feel for sure it is well demonstrated.


  51. Margaret says:

    don’t you feel there is a contradiction in what you propose, only brief effects and then the split again as part of our human condition, and the growing feeling of being at home, or more whole in our inner home, after a number of primal experiences?
    I think the healing is far more simple than the philosophical discussions about what can or cannot be known and what is ‘real’, as the healing is a regaining of a consistence that once existed, a natural flow of impulse processing and emotional experience and expression.

    • Phil says:

      What’s important to me is what I feel is happening with my primal process, rather than theoretical considerations. I do feel I’m becoming less split, or feeling less split, through the therapeutic process. It’s clear that I won’t ever become whole and maybe never come close to that, but I think that over time the effects of primal healing are permanent.

      • FRED says:

        June 21, 2018


        I am kind of in the same boat as you vis-a-vis “what’s happening”. It seems to be an excellent place to start. You stated:

        I do feel I’m becoming less split, or feeling less split, through the therapeutic process.

        I don’t know if I’m saying the same thing but I have to believe that my skills related to “primaling” are much further along than, say, 9 months ago and before the 463 Primals I’ve experienced since my wife went on hospice 12 days before she stopped breathing and her liver failed due to a tumor, the day before Thanksgiving, 2017.

        For me, when I first read Janov’s book, in the chapters about The Split and Primal Scenes, I intuitively understood what he meant. I might not be as articulate as some of the bloggers but nevertheless, I think I get it.

    • Sylvia says:

      I agree, Margaret, the point to me is what we are able to access about our past and be free from it when it made us do what we consciously did not want to do. To me it’s all biologic. Janov states that the right and left hemispheres of the brain are connected by the corpus callosum. In neurosis it is thinned out, so that information from the right is not transferred well to the left. Janov has said the right side of the brain is like a dredge that reaches down and brings up information of our past and sends it to the left to be processed. If it is too painful it never gets to the left and goes back down into the body and makes us nervous or have high blood pressure or have tics or whatever. Lets hope we primallers have a healthy corpus callosum or ‘bridges’ as you put it, to connect to our past and to our feelings and become more biologically whole, and finally free of our misery and able to be happy.

    • Daniel says:

      No, I don’t feel there is a contradiction. Feeling more comfortable in your inner space comes not only from tapping and releasing old Pain but also from the resultant knowledge of yourself, accepting who you are, making peace with your own circumstances and history and choices, forgiving yourself and others, etc.

      As I wrote in my post, in that process reinstating or developing a Feeling Child is crucial, because the knowledge I’m speaking of is not a dead factual knowledge but a living active one.

      You’re right that the philosophical discussion may be a bit too much, but still I think it enables us to see part of the fictitious dimension in which we live, and the drive we have to reunite with our split off parts, to search for our truths, whether or not such a search will end or be successful. It is that split that makes that drive so compelling.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Daniel: Sorry mate, but most of that went right over my cuckoo’s nest

        Way too convoluted for my pee brain.


  52. Margaret says:

    I entirely agree with what you say.

  53. Otto Codingian says:

    Doctor On Immigration Policy: ‘Horrific’ For Children’s Health | Velshi & Ruhle | MSNBC

    • FRED says:

      I think we should turn the subject back to our own realities, that is, feel our own pain. Could this be a distraction?

  54. Otto Codingian says:

    and the staff is not allowed to hold crying babies to comfort them.

    • sylvia says:

      Just awful. I could hardly listen to the recording put out this week of the little girl asking to call her aunt to come and get her. Others crying in the background. Hard to believe this is common practice.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Otto and Sylvia: This whole thing is bringing up so many feeling for me and I could hardly sleep last night because of it.

        I just want to confront Trump, most of the Republicans, and even Melania Trump for their unutterable insensitivity. but then it is just obvious to me how much these people are totally disconnected from their feelings. The spin they put out on TV, CNN makes me want to scream. YYYIIIKKKEEESSS!!!!!! … F U C K E R S .
        Yet! I know it’s all because of their own babyhood traumas.
        Tears are rolling down my cheeks as I write this.

        Last word:- Trump sure made America “gross” again.


  55. Renee says:

    Well said, Otto Sylvia and Jack. This is beyond horrific. I have to watch stuff like this to keep me sane: Let’s hope it’s over.

    • Sylvia says:

      John Oliver is a kick. Says it like it is. All we can do sometimes is make fun of the fiasco we are presented with. Made me laugh this morning. Equal time for the democrats–poor Chuck Schumer will have to find a different speech next year–not nearly as bad as the corruption of the Republicans. To keep my sanity I find the predictions of the psychics comforting. The decaying government heads should be ousted by next spring is forecast. Yes, it has come to this; asking psychics, like asking a parent, ‘will everything be okay?’ Let’s hope…

  56. Larry says:

    Here is a song I want to share that is the most recent tune that helps me get back to sleep in the middle of the night or get to feelings. It evokes the echoing dark empty cavern in me.

  57. Larry says:

    Hello Daniel. Thank you for your interesting article. I hope you eventually post the follow up to it that you mentioned. I like how you explain the primal process as the cultivation of a function of the mind called the “Feeling Child”. I never thought about it much that way before I read your piece. I haven’t read Art Janov’s writings for decades, but I seem to recall him speculating on the idea of the split, probably in the Primal Scream which I read 46 years ago. It’s unfortunate that in primal dialogue we get bogged down with the idea of the split, what it is and when it happened, and with the idea of returning to the time before the split ….the split in ourselves ….or our putative split from nature during the evolution of our species. I agree with your thesis as I understand it, that to return to the time before the split is a red herring in terms of being the goal of primal therapy. The only concept of a split that makes sense to me in primal terms is the split (and ensuing death of the “Feeling Child”) from the loving, womb-like embrace that we needed from our parents before we were ready to leave it to face the world on our own as “Feeling Child” adults.

    It can, but I’m not so sure that our species’ capacity for speech, or more generally our ability to contemplate nature abstractly, automatically and necessarily removes us from nature. Thanks to our species’ facility with language, reading and writing, that feeds information to my “Feeling Child”, I believe that I understand and feel connected to nature, and to my fellow human beings, better than any Cro-magnon person ever did. For example, where they may have thought of the points of light in the night sky as holes in the firmament and maybe conjured up the idea of spirits to explain them, I see an infinity of galaxies of suns and worlds at an infinitude away. Where they would have understood the uses of certain plants for food and medicines, I further understand the chemical processes of photosynthesis by which the plant traps the energy of the sun and transforms it into carbohydrates that fuel most of life on earth … a much deeper understanding and connection I would suggest than my Cro-magnon forebears had. Where their shamans would conjure themselves into altered states of consciousness, essentially trances, the experience of which they thought conveyed answers to them from the spirit world (such as where game could be found and successfully hunted), our method of experimental trial and error gives us real information and potentially deeper understanding about nature than our forebears could ever have had (here I reference the fascinating book “The Mind In the Cave” by David Lewis Williams).

    I think that our species strength is also our Achilles heel, in that our ability for conceiving of our world in abstractions enables us to conjure a conforming cultural reality that unites us and gives us strength in numbers but that can also divorce us from nature if our “Feeling Child” is lost. I think that since the beginning of time to be Homo sapiens is to have the capacity to be divorced from nature, but doesn’t necessarily mean that we automatically will be. I think that if the “Feeling Child” develops naturally until it is ready to leave its parents’ womb, then it will be a “Feeling Child” into adulthood, connected and whole. And because of our species intellectual capacity to abstract reality, we can grasp the idea of stored childhood emotional trauma, what a primal is, and how to bring back to life our “Feeling Child” that we were unlucky to lose .

    Thank you very much for stimulating, thoughtful contemplation Daniel.

  58. Larry says:

    The horrible part of the retreat is the aftermath, when back at home my life feels frightfully inadequate, starkly empty and meaningless, and I hopelessly despair that I’ll not be able to improve it. Of course I understand that in childhood my life was frightfully inadequate too and I truly was powerless to do anything about it then, but my situation seems and feels very similar in the present.

    Entertaining myself in retirement and trying to fill my loneliness with people doesn’t seem to work for me, because then I am only drifting aimlessly, trying to fit into everyone else’s agenda and feeling like everyone else is passing me by, leaving me cast off, alone and getting old on the shores of time. It seems the solution is that I have to choose a direction and pursue what is meaningful to me like I had to during my working life. It seems to me that in retirement I have to dig deep inside myself and discover what is meaningful to me to risk putting my time, energy and feelings into even though I no longer have to make a living. It’s apparent to me that having meaning and purpose is what makes life worthwhile. Right now I have none and sometimes I catch my breath with fright at seeing the horribly pit of loneliness that I risk falling into for the rest of my time.

    • Larry says:

      In the first sentence of my 6:55 pm comment above, to the phrase “when back at home my life feels frightfully inadequate, starkly empty and meaningless”, I want to add “in contrast to my rich experience at the retreat and the following days in the Primal community”.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Larry: Your childhood sounds like the worst nightmare and gives me shudders just reading your comments. I just wish things could be better for you especially now that you are retired.

        Since for you, the retreats are such a rich experience just being around feeling people, I wonder if you have thought about moving to Los Angeles, to be nearer some of those people. However, there may be good reason for not contemplating it, perhaps wanting to be near the place where you and Noreen spent time together. Also, maybe a deep love for your country … and that the US under Trump might seem very unattractive to you and perhaps many others.


        • Larry says:

          I feel it would likely be a mistake for me to move to LA just because I’m lonely, Jack. I have deep feelings in me that I don’t have a home, that I don’t belong anywhere. I have to deal with those wherever I live, probably for all of my life. The only time they didn’t plague me as much was when my wife was in my life. Then home was wherever we were. If I were to move anywhere, it would be to where the climate is gentler, where people are kinder to the environment and to each other, and where I could afford to live.

        • Larry says:

          The thing about the “lonely” is, if I’m with people I inevitably feel I never had a home, I never belonged, and it gets in the way of being with them, but if I avoid people to in order to avoid those feelings/truths, then I’m alone and belong to no one.

          My wife was as afraid of her own inner aloneness as I was of mine. We had a deep understanding and bond with one another. Having each other, we didn’t feel as horribly alone when we made our individual forays into the world. Having each other, we could more easily hide from the emptiness of our childhoods and made a good life considering. Sometimes when I was very scared in social situations, I got through them because she was with me, and vice versa.

  59. Margaret says:

    after reading your long and interesting comment, I feel like responding before reading the rest of the comments.
    it made me reflect more on that ‘theoretical primal split’ and what it refers to.
    I remember part of the theory being a key moment often is the moment when the forced unreality in order to survive and keep hoping for love becomes bigger than our original real personality.
    this often happens around the age of six, more or less, is the theory.
    that seems to make sense, that gradually our ‘feeling child’ gets to a point where it starts to give up on struggling to make his real self accepted and loved the way it is, by crying or throwing a tantrum or whatever means it has to make itself understood by the parent.
    there probably comes a turning point where it has to give up on the hope of beeing really seen, accepted and loved for how it is, and gives in to trying to adjust to what seems to be asked and expected from him or her.
    that seems to be a split in every sense of the word, trying to start to make a new ‘acceptable and loveable’ persona.
    the big thing here is the child itself is forced to regard itself as unacceptable the way he was and wil grow away more and more of that original state of mind.
    but as the process usually builds up first and worsens in my opinion, most often anyway, the gradual primal way to reverse it, partially at least does open the connections again to how we once were.
    after my first primal I had a strong experience of that reconnection, emotionally, mentally, even physically finding back that long forgotten four year old, feeling a true thrill of suddenly remembering that long lost very very best friend i have ever had, my young self.
    writing this down makes me all emotional again, and will keep doing so every time i talk about it.
    that experience is better than any theoretical explanation could prove, and it certainly is convincing enough to raise interest in primal therapy when I relate it to people occasionally, as they see, hear and sense my feeling still present of that day and its positive impact.
    I will always remember siting on Santa Monica pier in the setting sun, feeling almost euphoric, that four year old me having broken out of its chains after all these years and being still there in its purity and innocence.
    feel like laying down now and …

  60. Margaret says:

    more ‘proof’ for the validity of the construct of repressed emotions is the fact my first big feeling bursting to the surface was one I hadn’t even been aware of, at least not in any direct way.
    the feeling ‘I am a girl!’ i had to repeat on that moment over and over and over to my dad, in the therapy room, was one long wail for not being accepted and for being told off over and over in a disapproving way for behaving like a boy.

    my point being how a feeling can break to the surface while so far we have been relatively unaware of its existence, while it is so very very real and true and able to reconnect us (bit by bit) with our once intact self.

  61. FRED says:

    June 24, 2018

    I think the feelings make themselves known in due course, not that we don’t have a say in the timing.

    For example, say a person who has been in Primal Therapy and perceives a lot of “threatening feelings” but doesn’t desire to completely acknowledge that the feelings are incipient to awareness so he or she slips into habitual patterns of behavior. Say, for this person, food is the “defense mechanism” of choice. (I’m very familiar with this myself, my favorite hands-down).

    As a result, maybe this person puts off, spreads out this feeling that is trying to emerge. This, then, would significantly impact the timing of its coming into conscious awareness until such time as there is a much greater exigency.

    My point is that, left alone, the feelings will be accessible at the right time and even place. We shouldn’t worry about this but have a bit of faith, garnered through experiential learning. They work hand in hand.

    Over time, that ability to allow will become more powerful if we don’t go poking around in the past, over-analyzing this, ruing that, picking at psychic scabs.

    I’m not saying that, what we think of as, the past in terms of our life from The Womb to Childhood’s End isn’t the “cause” but I am saying that we don’t need to go looking for trouble because if we do, we’ll find it. Seek and ye shall find.

    It truly is a fool’s errand to intentionally seek out trauma, pain, loss, fear in the past. Again, I’m not saying it isn’t there but that it is immeasurably more efficacious to let repression do its thing until when the time is right.

    Maybe we should try to be more like Little Bo-Peep.

    Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep,
    And doesn’t know where to find them;
    Leave them alone and they’ll come home,
    Wagging their tails behind them.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Fred: I agree whole heatedly that one should not go about seeking feelings. That’s not what I feel this therapy is about. It’s also not about constantly going back to see and look at your childhood. As I see it, that’s the Freudian method.

      Most patients I know, would do anything to avoid having to go back and feel all the horrors. The problem for a lot of us is; that it’s all there coming up and making life uncomfortable at best or downright awful at worst.
      In my case, I just go along doing my thing, and then when some feeling jumps up in front of me, only then do I just lie dawn and feel it, and let it go where ever it want to take me. Real simple.

      You mention the food thing. I did the “Twelve step program”. for me it was sex addiction. but I met many over-eaters. From what I could see, it was a direct deprivation of food when they were little. It’s amazing just how, when the insight occurs, just how obvious the connection is.


    • Phil says:

      You say “it’s a fool’s errand to intentionally seek out trauma, pain, loss, fear in the past” But isn’t that exactly what we are doing when we engage in primal therapy? If that’s not the goal then there are many other therapies that avoid seeking out trauma, pain, loss, and fear in the past, which might be more attractive.

      • FRED says:

        No. “You” cannot. It is literally impossible.

        This is because the ego is involved. The ego is the eye to the physical universe. Its role is not to go chasing ghosts of the past, to “primal”. It is my opinion that the feelings will come if “invited”.

        I think one of the functions of Primal Therapy is to learn pathology of emotions.

        • Phil says:

          You talk as if you are 100% split, but I don’t believe that. Maybe you could talk some more about what’s bothering you here. You say it is your “opinion that the feelings will come if invited”. Well, who is it that issues that invitation? and why?

          • FRED says:

            June 26, 2018

            For lack of a better term at this moment: “the Inner Self”. I don’t see this as anti-Janovian, if you will. I’m not real good at regurgitating Janov but he said things like The Real Self, psycho-biologic.

            I have to believe that the sacred utter connectedness of the psyche-emotions-body-spirit-soul-whatever, working as a gestalt, KNOWS what’s “next”.

            It is just our mission, from this vantage point of living mostly on the surface of things, to be more open to this information. Maybe in part, this is what the Three Week Intensive and concomitant isolation is about–one beginning to learn how to let down defenses.

            Maybe all of us pretend we don’t know about some of our defenses. Without condemning ourselves, maybe we should be more honest.

            Here is one possible example. Maybe we should realize that “having sex (so frequently) with my spouse or boy-or-girlfriend though ‘pleasurable’, is actually simply draining off feelings (same, even worse with masturbation)”.

            Here is another example. Maybe having a couple of donuts from the two boxes someone brought into the office on this Friday “just this one time, my dental health be damned; isn’t going to kill me”, might not be a decision fraught with Wisdom.

            I realize (firsthand) about the disappointment and frustration with how it “all turned out”, how short we seemed to fall from “The Primal Scream” but maybe Daniel would want to tackle this in a Second Letter of Daniel!

            However, silly me, I have to believe that the Feeling Child is watching and waiting. If only we would or could listen better, a topic that Daniel should include in his Second Epistle.

    • sylvia says:

      Fred, I think that is all good advice from Phil, Margaret and Jack. Feelings do come up in their own time. But I was wondering if there is a specific feeling to deal with, and not a bunch of feelings coming up that would put one off. If you could narrow a feeling down to just one then it might be easier to feel it. I’m thinking of just the smaller feelings that come up, like someone is rude to you or disagrees with you–you can feel that. That establishes a sort of habit to just being open to what’s happening in every day life. Then you could get an inkling of something bigger that you perhaps want to get to and that you can handle and wouldn’t be considered too overwhelming. Anyway, that has been my pattern. How did Bo-Peep lose all those sheep? sleeping on the job, I guess.

      • FRED says:

        Sometimes it is the little things, you are quite correct.

        I had a MASSIVE primal on 9/11/1994 after a “girlfriend” spoke to me in a mean tone of voice a few times as we were driving to get Chinese food in the Sherman Oaks area of Los Angeles. She kept “picking on me for no reason”.

        She wasn’t much nicer on the way back AND the food was a disappointment.

        We got home and I had a feeling I needed to lay down on the bed. It was late afternoon. I started to “cry” a little; again “for no reason”.

        To my complete and utter surprise it mushroomed and mushroomed. Of course, I realized it had NOTHING to do with her. It kept coming and coming and coming. Very loud! Fantastic.

        At maybe five minutes into the Primal (it’s hard to mark time when one is into a Feeling), she came into the bedroom and I think tried to apologize. I interrupted my Feeling and told her it had nothing to do with her and if I were upsetting her, that she should leave, even take a walk.

        It just kept a-comin’ and I was surely not going to try to play the Little Dutch Boy and plug holes in the dam.

        You might say it was my “Danny Wilson Event”. Please see “Introduction: The Discovery of Primal Pain” in the book “The Primal Scream, Primal Therapy: The Cure for Neurosis” by Arthur Janov, Ph.D. for more edification.

        The difference, though, was that I KNEW what was happening. I had been in primal therapy in 1973-1974 though not at the Institute but at a center Dr. Janov might have included in his group of “mock Primal Therapists”, but that is a topic for another day.

        Years later, I noted that this life-changing Primal occurred on “9/11″, exactly 7 years before 9/11/2001.

        Moreover, the coda to this account was that twice more the “girlfriend” came into the bedroom. The second time I again told her that she had nothing to do with it. The third time, I guess she “couldn’t take it anymore” and said something like “You need to act like a man”.

        Well, that spelled the beginning of the end of our relationship, our “9/11″, even if the official end wouldn’t be for more than a year later.

        She and I are still friends and, as John Lennon might put it: We’re “only human, victims of the insane”. God bless her though, she “unwittingly” changed my life. She has had a rough go of it herself. She is a good soul.

  62. Margaret says:

    Barry has a good way to put it: if it does not itch, no need to scratch.
    on the other hand, once you are aware of eating as a defense, I know from my own experience that the advice I got on that area to take lighter meals did immediately result in better access to my feelings.
    so like always it is the middle road, a fine line between doing nothing or doing to much.
    also, as Barry and other therapists also repeat, one should definitely not spend all one’s time on looking for feelings, but work on our life and live it as fully as possible, and work on improving it.
    that is the best trigger for any kind of feeling to come up spontaneously.
    allowing it to come up indeed gets easier over time, sometimes not, but often it does.
    don’t worry Fred, and don’t think too much about it all, our subconscious does most of the work in my experience. wish you all the best,

  63. Vicki says:

    Quite a nice article on the difference between the Maya children in Guatemala,and U.S. children, and their different ability to pay attention:

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Vicki: I’ve just written a short book (20 + pages) and sent a PDF file of it to those I have an email address of. I touch on the matter on the site you posted, which i read. Briefly, I would put it this way:- “Learning is simple, natural, and intuitive, as it is with all other creatures. It’s teaching (be it by parents or school teachers), that is complex and convoluted.

      So! yes, I feel they are way closer to their feelings than most of our Western cultures are.


      • FRED says:

        June 25, 2018

        Well, at least we agree on Freud. I hate to say this but, overall, I think he caused more damage than good.

        Luckily, I basically don’t overeat but sometimes ANY food (even for several days) is a defense and, for me, I’ve torpedoed more than one psycho-physical revelation with pizza but, as John Lennon sang: “I’m only human, a victim of the insane” so I do try to let myself off easily.

        Luckily also, sex addiction wasn’t my problem as women weren’t exactly pounding down my door to go out which, in retrospect, is an enormous blessing, that is, maybe I usually didn’t get the girl but I got The Girl (for more than 20 years).

        For some of we older people, there IS a problem. Over years, decades we’ve gotten pretty well-adjusted. Primal Therapy definitely helped us, if only to re-teach how to cry. Maybe we are still somewhat open to feelings coming up and from-time-to-time and can “have our feelings” but it seems we’re basically in a comfort zone.

        But, we had to get on with life. After all, who wants to be post-primal and standing on the street corner with a sign that reads “Will sit for your birth primal for food”?

        This is not a “bad” thing per se. It may serve us well for 10, 20, even 30 years as we travel on our life paths, most of us finding a spouse, many us having children, developing careers, pursuing creative interests or hobbies, grandchildren dealing with sick and dying parents, etc.

        For many, I would imagine, this is pretty much the end of the trail. Indeed, this is a kind of definition of success! Hey, great! Primal Therapy definitely made things better even if memories of the all those beloved fellow-travelers from the 1970s fade into their mental jpegs. “Those were the days”, Mary Hopkin, indeed!

        However, for some of us, there is this nagging, insistent knowing that there is more experiential learning available, surely! The “problem” is that maybe we’ve got a bit too comfortable, or as the Moody Blues asked “Are you sleeping comfortably?”. The answer might be: “No, not entirely. There is this dream…or is it a dream?…it seems so familiar…I seem to be very young, maybe only 3 in a stroller..”.

        Obviously, every individual is very different, but in general a kick-start to our reality is needed after years of somnolance. This is a subject for another time.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          I agree again when you say we are all different, even to seeing things differently.
          Yep it’s journey. However I disagree with you about Freud. I doubt without him, there would never have been and Art Janov. Janov claimed that he,Freud, was a genius. He did start the whole ball rolling.

          Meantime, take care … keep writing and perhaps tell us more about your therapeutic journey and some more of your feelings.


      • FRED says:

        I think we Europeans and their descendants (like I, my great and great grandparents from England, Scotland, Wales and protestant Ireland) are etho-centric. No! We personally didn’t commit a great sin but think about it.

        WE split the atom when arguably mankind just simply wasn’t ready (maybe never ready) for all the ramifications.

        We, for the most part, developed WMD.

        We, for the most part, allowed the Industrial Revolution to pollute the planet. Again, our technology exceeded are “spiritual” level. I would argue the same is true today.

        And, Freud was DEFINITELY European. He did a lot of damage to natural man, in my opinion, positing the existence of a dark, frightening repository of “subconscious material” that is best left alone.

        We, for the most part, engaged in mega-wars, going back well before the time of Christ.

        Slow down the world, please, I want to get off, if only for a venti latte.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Fred: Just one more DISAGREEMENT. That dark unconscious is NOT natural. If there is a goal to becoming natural (our real selves) again, it bring the unconscious (my word subconscious) back into where it should have been all along, back into consciousness.

          I personally prefer “Subconscious” since it connotes that there is a chance to bring it back into the conscious–ness. Just me being difficult.


  64. Margaret says:

    I had such an intense dream last night, a painful one but also interesting in its primal content.
    the scenery was primal some therapists around and some patients, but my focus and feeling was on Barry who was not there.
    the feeling was one of acute need, and one of huge frustration and despair.
    it all of course relates to the feelings I had as a kid towards my dad, he was around but not available.
    I was very aware of my huge need, emotional and physical need, but at the same time I was aware of all the impulses I had to act out for some relief, the impulse to cry to get attention, to draw attention in any way possible, and did not want to do so, even disapproved strongly of myself for wanting to do so…
    what was left was the frustration, the painful knowledge no one else would be able to meet that huge need, and I was left with the agony of it.
    at some point in the dream I could lay down and moan loudly in that feeling, which felt like the one thing to do that was right.

    looking back on the vivid dream at waking up, I think it is related to the point in my life as a kid where I started to become aware nothing would really work with my dad, no crying, no tantrums, no nice attempts, to make him be close with me.
    all waht was left back then was going for the crumbs so to say, silently hanging around in his presence, playing on the floor while he was working, hovering around at some acceptable distance while he was working on the car or in the garden, in hope of some minute moments of attention without rejection.

    this feeling of need has been present during my whole therapy, its disguises and act outs becoming more clear, and it now seems to be down to its crude and painful reality, that I do not want to act out to get that need met in a phony way, which also messes up my life, and that I am left with having to face the pain of never getting it met in its essential original depth.

    if I piccture myself right now being in a group with Barry, I feel sadness is what comes up right away, and that feels like a good and important step in the accepting process.
    being stuck in the need itself is agony, moving on to the sadness feels like a step forward.
    of course htis cycle has happened before in many ways, but somehow this feels like some kind of a milestone nevertheless.
    I am so grateful that my dreams help me with the process from time to time , in very useful and unexpected ways.

    and here too things happening in my present life might well be the trigger.

    al of this also made me reflect on how we use transference in such a useful way in primal therapy, the gate into our feelings so to say.
    I would do anything to promote this therapy if I could, it improves my life in so many ways, even while I hardly have had any sessions and no groups at all the last couple of years, it has been internalized and keeps going on.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Wow!!! what a great feeling, and such an incredible insight. That’s the way I see it.

      It all comes up in it’s own good way, and in it’s own good time. Once started, there’s no turning back. Good-on-yer-Margaret.


  65. FRED says:

    June 26, 2018

    Thank you for sharing. This took courage but I believe that you’ve actually, maybe unintentionally, shown the group The Key to The Next Step.

    Reading your post, I was moved but I also had a breakthrough insight, actually not a new one as I’ve known this about myself for quite some time.

    Phrases you used included: “huge frustration”; “no one else would be able to meet that huge need”, “never getting it met” all SEEM to be standard mostly-Third Line. Indeed I have similar feelings although I usually don’t experience them in terms of my childhood, that is, they SEEM to be about conditions in present life.

    However, it occurred to me actually at least a decade ago–a few times when I was fasting for a few days–that “below” these feelings of hurt and emotional deprivation, there is a “larger, more profound” emotional state operating.

    It is not unlike a program running in the background of a computer, a program that slows down its performance (maybe this isn’t much of an issue with Windows 8 and 10 but it was a significant factor back in the days of Windows XP); but I think the analogy works.

    This “breakthrough” actually is basically restating what Janov has written about interactions of First, Second and Third Lines.

    I am positing that this intimate conviction or utterly life-coloring emotional state, in Primal terms, is largely “First Line” and definitely pre-verbal, for lack of a better term, Birth Trauma.

    It is a PROGRAM running in the back of daily awareness. Again, re-stating Dr. Janov in a slightly different way, Birth Trauma utterly colors almost every aspect of our daily life.

    For me, this realization that “I can’t make it” or “I’m never going to make it” with its subjective hopelessness, its finality and futility was actually unrelated to present circumstances, that is, largely Birth Trauma-related; was an enormous breakthrough.

    “So what is the big deal about this?”, you, other members or even your friend Barry, might ask, “How is this a breakthrough?”.

    Welp, to paraphrase a line in “Raiders of the Lost Ark”, “We’re digging in the wrong place!”.

    Maybe we should actually look more closely at Birth Trauma. I am not saying we should endeavor to have Birth Primals, nothing of the sort.

    No, that would be absolutely the wrong thing but the simple realization that this Life Program is running in the background, utterly blocking off SO much consciousness, is a revelation that can actually energize and give Real Hope.

    The largely intellectual knowledge of this 24/7-process can actually serve to objectify the subjective feeling of “I’m never going to make it”. Knowledge is power when you remind yourself that “that was then, this is now”.

    Speaking for myself, if I can remember more often that “it’s the program, stupid (nothing personal), not actual reality”, then over time, this monster becomes more manageable and I have more freedom to make decisions in my daily life and even to get into feelings.

    I will try to remind myself more, maybe saying to myself: “This is a feeling (belief) about and not a condition of reality”. Note also, that fasting often provided me with a kick in my reality-butt.

  66. Larry says:

    Yowzer!!!! “Early trauma leaves a lasting mark – in sperm. A study of 28 men has found that those who had difficult childhoods carry chemical clues to their past in their sperm, which may be passed down to their sons.” (New Scientist, May 26 – June 1, 2018).

    Theoretically, my split (primally speaking) may have happened even before I was conceived. Ha! : (

  67. Otto Codingian says:

    m, “looking back on the vivid dream at waking up, I think it is related to the point in my life as a kid where I started to become aware nothing would really work with my dad”. OWWWW!

  68. Otto Codingian says:

    Vicki, thanks for the article. getting a few minor tears while reading this, not sure why.

  69. Otto Codingian says:

    ” but I met many over-eaters. From what I could see, it was a direct deprivation of food when they were little. ” True, Jack. Mom and her milk went away, from me early: deprivation. then i was given milk by others, but little else making food ultra important to me, a friend to me. As i told some PTherapist how my dietician was trying to get me cut down on food, he lauighed and said she was trying to take away the only joy that i did have in life.

  70. Jack Waddington says:

    Otto: I also heard that “The only joy they had”

    That is what I feel is wrong with all those giving advice, when they’ve never experienced it themselves. Same with pain killing drugs. If you’re in perpetual pain ANYTHING … to relieve it


  71. Margaret says:

    I relate to what you wrote.
    that feeling of ‘I can’t make it, I won’t be able to make it’ is all too familiar with me. it seems indeed birth related, and i often have to tell myself in the present it is my old feeling and not that much related to present reality, to keep it from paralyzing me.
    but I never ever have used the division of first, second or third line, as it feels kind of artificial and I do not like the way they train their therapists in the training center these days, it feels controlling and not respecting the natural flow of the patient’s feelings.

    I have noticed my primal feelings flow back and forth in a natural way from present to younger childhood to baby wailing and back and forth again, linking all stages together with their own insights.
    too much control, specially from someone else would seriously interfere.
    but well, we are all different and we all go about the feeling process in our own ways of course.
    wish you the best, you sound like you make good progress.

    • FRED says:

      It seems like you are doing great AND functioning “successfully” in a society where it seems almost as if “we” are still running against the wind, swimming against the current, in danger of being trampled by Black Friday shoppers at Walmart?

      It occurred to me, while reading your response, that there might be a leadership vacuum in the primal movement or are we each of us our own leaders?

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: I don’t think “leader” is the right word. As far as I know there is a director of the Primal Institute. His purpose is to keep the “organization” open.

        I am merely a proselytizer.


        • FRED says:

          That is a difficult undertaking and a DIRTY job, but somebody’s got to do it.

          • Jack Waddington says:

            Fred: I think “DIRTY” is not the right word. “DIFFICULT” maybe . Unless you are implying that the Institute is doing dirty work.


  72. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi Everyone: I’ve just spent the last hour laying on our swing couch on this beautiful sunny clear blue sunny sky day. The sun popping through a gap in the tree tops and feeling so good and so happy with our little house, the garden with all the flowers shrubs and trees. It’s all so peaceful and quiet.

    I feel so lucky to have a companion that we can both laugh and joke together and he loves shopping and cooking. I am not happy doing either. It’s all, for right now, so glorious, and yesterday a little red admiral butterfly came and landed on my shirt sleeve and stayed for about 3 minutes. The colours of it wings so glorious, it’s legs so thread like and it’s double attenas twinkling in the sun. I didn’t move and we stayed together, feeling that we were in some kind of communication with one another.

    Just one of those moments … and I wanted to share it.

    Later will be another moment in time.


  73. Margaret says:

    very nice. I once had a butterfly land on the tip of my nose and I felt so privileged, it was all the more nice as I was on a hike with my late boyfriend.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: So!!! I’m not the only one, having an affair with a maiposa.

      Yep , it’s quite something

  74. Phil says:

    Why do we discriminate so much in favor of butterflies? What about flies, beetles, and centipedes?

    • Larry says:


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: I take your point. I used to think nothing of killing flies and some other beetles. Now I sort of more generally identify with them in-so-far as “live and let live” … though I don’t want to share my house with them. So!!! I/we put up fly nets to the windows we open.


  75. Margaret says:

    ok, Phil and Larry,
    you can have all of those, but please please take the spiders as well!!

  76. Barry M says:

    Hey Margaret, I am sitting here in Canada in front of my T.V. in my housecoat at 7:30am (‘cos I’m retired don’t ya know) watching Columbia play Senegal in the World Cup in Russia. I’m loving it, but really just putting in time until the 11:00am game when England plays Belgium. That game makes me think of you!! I’ll wager you a coffee that England wins – payable at our next retreat.
    Are you game? (If you’ll pardon the pun)

  77. Margaret says:

    right, and then when they catch a fly they come racing up on their 8 hairy horrible legs, looking through their 8 beady little horrible eyes, and put their horrible fangs in the fly to poison it , paralize it and liquidify it from the inside out, suck it empty like a milkshake or sping it in for a later snack.
    and when a male ventures by for some fun he risks the same ending after having performed.
    lovely creatures of nature, ha, in fact for me the only animal that irrationally freaks me out, mommy dear was like that too so well, engrained deeply into my system I am afraid…
    and well, those beautiful webs are stiky when you walk into them and then there is that horrible freaky fear of no no no, do I have a spider in my hair or somewhere else on me????

    • Phil says:

      That is the circle of life. Spiders and flies, cats and mice, Belgium and England.
      There are winners and losers in life.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Phil; BUT; with us humans there seems more losers than winner, by way more than 80% … me thinks.


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: In Eackngland I think we say “A bee in your bonnet”.


    • FRED says:

      June 28, 2018

      In the past week, I have flushed down the toilet some 600 or more fleas that I combed off Bogart, one of my 3 cats over the past week. It’s quite amazing. Each day fewer fleas than the day before, and “flea dirt”. Poor little guy. He SO appreciates it and will “sit” for me. Yesterday, I estimate I maybe combed out only 30.

      The other 2 cats won’t allow me comb them, but the flea stuff (Revolution and an oral pill) the vet gave them seems to be working.

      I understand Bogart was “rejected” by the mama cat and, were it not for human intervention, he might not have survived. Maybe this is why he is more sociable with humans than the other 2 cats.

      He is quite bright too, but needy. I can understand THAT! But he loves mightily!; and is very very bright, puts the other 2 cats to shame, if you will. He is Persian and was given to my wife in January 2011 by her then-boss, not long after our previous Persian died.

      I miss my wife beyond anything; however, I am “mad” at her with leaving me 3 cats.

  78. Margaret says:

    Hi Barry, haha, sure! but I want ice cream instead of coffee!!
    yummmie, drooling already, is next summer ok with you?

  79. Margaret says:

    p.s. last world championship we beat the USA, actually, sorry guys, kicked them out of the series, oops, during a retreat, followed the match in a bar in Santa Barbara and Phil was a very nice commentator by my side.
    me being the only Belgian in that bar cheering loudly, probably a lot of sour glances coming my way, haha, part of the audience even left before the game was over, bad losers those guys, it is just an expensive game after all isn’t it?
    you don’t really wanna know what those guys earn.
    one player just had to pay 19 million Euro of fine to the taxes for some side earnings he stashed on some off shore account, he just smiled and replied he would earn it back in about 3 months.
    kind of obscene if you ask me but no one asks of course.

  80. Phil says:

    Spain should beat Russia on Sunday, unless Russia cheats. Go Spain!!! I’m rooting for them.

  81. Margaret says:

    Phil, haha, right!
    and yes, I also hope Spain beats Russia. hope those poor players won’t end up in Siberia in that case…

  82. Margaret says:

    hm, I would never have thought about terms like ‘leader’, I think we are all worthwhile individuals and can all do a lot in our own ways.
    what matters is that the focus on the importance of emotions and feelings and specially old feelings spreads more, and there are a lot of people who can add to that, of course specially professionals in the medical and psychological field.
    for example the son in law of someone I know here is a heart specialist, and I found out he published an article some years ago which got a lot of attention here and in England if I recall it right, about how heart disease is positively correlated with the non-expression of emotions, specially anger.
    in brief holding it all in is a factor in causing heart disease.
    there are bits and pieces of proof for the truth everywhere, for those who want to see.
    ‘disclosure’ is also a term getting more positive attention in psychology, and is also proven scientifically to reduce stress levels significantly.
    more so when people talk about painful events than when they write about it, but the latter also has a significant effect, measurable on the short term for sure.
    and that is already in my actual textbooks of health psychology, so not al is hopeless in this here world.
    a more positive attitude and an active one is what we can add to spread our experiences.
    and primal therapy does not solve all psychic problems either, it is a very valuable part of the big picture.
    also it does not always need to be so complicated in my view, a good talk and especially a good cry are the building blocks of therapy after all, as simple as that, basically, and a good friend can help many people in distress in that way.
    not meaning the value of proper primal therapy is not worth every penny.

  83. Margaret says:

    did you put any product in his neck as well?
    it also sounds like you might have to treat the spots where they ‘chill’
    do you feel it is too much work taking care of the three cats?
    it does sound like you are fond of them and well, speaking for myself I am sooo happy for the company of my two feline friends cheering up my life.
    imagining an empty home to come home to seems terrible, but with the cats it is warm and cozy and they give me two good reasons to get up every morning.
    also when I feel tense just petting them calms me down and lowers my blood pressure, and well, it is simply a pleasure to stroke their silky fur and to get purrs in return.
    I also like it when they stretch in visible delight when being petted, smiley.
    well, it must be clear I am a cat person, not exclusively so though.

    • FRED says:

      Well, the guy (from London, incidentally) behind me believes this year is a bad year for fleas in the LA area or at least here in western West Hollywood. The other day he told me that his dog had a lot more fleas than previous years. I think he’s lived on this property 3 summers.

      Last night, when I opened the front door, out ran Bogart for the first time in 10 days so obviously he is feeling a LOT better. When I took him into the vet 2 weeks ago today, Friday; poor guy was ANEMIC from fleas SUCKING HIS BLOOD. I met somebody who told me their cat DIED from severe flea infestation. The vet kept Bogart over the weekend.

      When I picked him up on the Monday afternoon, he still wasn’t feeling well and more or less hid for 5 days, only coming out to eat and then VERY LITTLE if anything. I read where animals KNOW that, what we call, fasting, can help them heal or recover.

      I vacuumed and washed every thing in the house. Then I sprayed the carpets with non-toxic flea spray and vacuumed again. I plan to repeat this process over the coming weeks.

      Last night the other 2 cats followed him outside in the next few minutes. When this happens, I have to leave the door open because they boss me around and come in when they choose.

      Hunter, the other male cat went and laid down in his spot. I will try to check and see if he has fleas. A couple of days ago I combed out maybe 4 or 5 but he won’t sit still long for me to continue to comb him. All 3 cats were treated by the vet.

      I will check Bogart in a few minutes and see if he seems to have “gained fleas” by being out for the first time in over a week.

  84. Margaret says:

    wow Fred,
    you sure made a lot of efforts already!
    I think when they go out they will probably always bring in some fleas but those will die once they suck a bit of blood due to the product.
    that way they should not be able to lay eggs, hopefully.
    for the first time this year the vet gave me a product that is supposed to last 3 months.
    many brands do not help anymore, like Frontline, all fleas are resistent against that brand.
    will let you know which one I have here, still have to give it to mine, luckily as a preventive measure, and I already gave another one last month which is about to wear out.
    but as it is very hot here these days it is better to treat them as once fleas have arrived they are pretty tenacious.
    do you know White noise, an obscure but great band from I guess the seventies, they have a funny song named here come the fleas…
    and yes, cats hate shut doors don’t they? and once you want to open it briefly for them they start hesitating on the doorstep, like mmm, in or out, I do not want to choose!!
    I have installed three cat doors here, as to not be the porter all the time, haha, a bit drafty in winter but well, saves me a lot of getting up and back and up and back etc.
    kind of noisy too when they play and chase each other racing back and forth through all the cat doors and back, all that done by two cats briefly after each other, a lot of clattering I can assure you.
    my former cat loved to play with ping pong balls on the wooden floor below my bed in the middle of the night, but hey, I still love to hear them having a good time, cheers me up even then.
    beautiful and smart little creatures, a privilege to be trusted by and loved by isn’t it?
    sure Sylvia agrees on this, smiley.

  85. Barry M says:

    OK Margaret, you’re on, but since both teams are trying to lose, if Belgium does win then you’re only getting frozen yogurt. It would take a final game loss for me to fork out for real ice-cream!!!

  86. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Margaret, they are adorable little creatures for sure. The second litter that I rescued 2 female kittens from are one year old now. One of them, a gray and white striped is very loving and comes up on my lap to cuddle. The other one, a black and white is more independent and likes to explore beyond all the boundaries, into neighbors’ yards.
    We’ve had lots of fleas this year too, Fred, here in Northern CA. My little dog and the kitties are constantly scratching. I bathe the dog because flea medicine makes him sick and he has little seizures anyways from poor kidney function. and the vet doesn’t recommend flea meds. The kitties get the topical stuff.

    Margaret, these 2 kitties race through the room like wild things chased by demons sometimes. I like having life around me. I still feed the half wild ones too with the help of my neighbor we appreciate their hunting efforts to keep the field mice and gophers down.

    Fred, I was a little curious about the feeling you had in ’94 triggered by your girlfriend. Sounds like a big one. Did it go to your childhood?–I don’t mean anything specific, just in general, unless you want to say.

  87. Margaret says:

    ok, smiley, I love frozen yogart!!
    does it take the final cup for Belgium to get that ice cream? fine with me, what do you want if they lose the final game?

    I am glad one of the players at least did not go along with trying to lose, but just folllowed his impulses.
    not that I followed the game, just heard it was a bit weird.
    sissies those English, scared to have to be on the top and prove themselves?
    haha, sorry, my worst side comes up seemingly with soccer at this level.
    I would love to be a Maori Haka dancer,!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Yeah!! we English are such sissies. As my father would say:- “Pansies”. He got the shock of his life when he realized he created the biggest.

      However, I do have to defend us English, since we invented the game; “Soccer”, The full name “Association Football”. My dad was into Rugby league, (not Rugby Union) and thought the local soccer club was a sissies game, and called them “Royton Saint Matha’s” meaning it to be a put down:- a “ladies game” and not a “real man’s game”. Geeeeezzzzzuuuusss!!!!


    • Barry M says:

      OK Margaret, it’s a bet. If Belgium wins the cup you get a half gallon of your favourite Ben et Jerry’s ‘creme de glace’, and if England wins (sissily or otherwise) I would like a half pound of ‘Truffes au chocolat belges’
      Est-ce un pari??

      I’d think you would make a great Maori Haka dancer, but do you have the tongue for it?


  88. Margaret says:

    what language is that quote from your dad?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: The local Soccer club stadium was situated at Boundary Park which was on the boundary of Royton, a..small town near my home town of Oldham. Saint Martha’s was a made up church name, by my father used as a ‘put down’ … sort of a misogynistic remark on his part. So it was pure Lancashire, English. My father would also refer to actions by us kids and others as a “Martha” idiocy. Gross!!!!.


  89. Otto Codingian says:

    yes seems more fleas this year in l.a. area. anyway, good movie, woma walks ahead.

    • FRED says:

      Thanks for confirming my antecdotal observation. ALL four tenants in this property in where I live in W Hollywood have reported above-average fleas on their (in the case of the other 3, dogs, mine cats) pets.

      OFF TOPIC, but one of these days let’s meet up and talk about Old Times. That is a joke.

  90. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi Everyone: I’ve just read a very lengthy article on SRTT therapy by Patrick Wanis and was very disturbed by it in-so-far a it states it’s a pain free psychotherapy, rather than a reliving of old pain. He’s admitting he’s basing his ideas on ‘Regressive’ or ‘Primal therapy’.
    What I feel Wanis missed was 2 major points. The first being that those “old unexpressed feeling” are still reverberating in the present, AND he didn’t seem to understand the difference between an act-out of a feeling, and the very simple expression of it.

    It gives me more assurance that Arthur Janov was correct in NOT allowing anyone to practice in his (Janov’s) name … knowing it could well be perverted; as has been done with religious practices, all down time.

    Gggrrrrrr!!!!! Jack

  91. Otto Codingian says:

    If anyone woujld like to work with me, i would like to create anti-trump commercials and place them on my youtube account, but i dont have the patience to learn all the tools to cut video clips and paste together to make an ad. like 15 seconds of trump golfihg and repubs in congress still having committees investigating hillary’s emails, followed by shots of babies being torn from their mothers.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I would love to help you with that, except I am not savvy enough to do that kind of work.


  92. Margaret says:

    hi Barry,
    I have often smuggled in Belgian chocolates , and am used to lying to the border patrol on that matter…
    but hey, we will win anyway haha!, and well, in the worst case scenario England still won’t win, will they?
    you’d be surprised at especially the sharpness of my tongue when necessary, does that count?

  93. Margaret says:

    not to forget the scene in which Trump is proudly waving on the stairs of his plane and then the wind blows off the fake part of his hair, his toupee, or wig or whatever you call it. hilarious, especially his face I imagine must be great to watch when that happens, haha!!

    • FRED says:

      July 1, 2018

      This lack of any attempt at being loving or empathetic by either side (e.g. “Antifa” attacking lawfully assembled people in Portland); the mocking of “the other side”, the making of “the other side” wrong; the shallowness; it all causes me distress.

      I suspect that we; that is, humankind and especially we here in the United States; are diverting ourselves from our feelings through any means including intolerance and judgement of people on “the other side” of the political divide.

      Some of the feelings and pain I’ve experienced these past 8 months, for them there are no words (an element of The Preverbal?) beg for a kinder, gentler world where we at least recognize the broken-hearted nature of the human race.

      I believe on a “mass consciousness” level that “something is going on. There has been a kind of acceleration these last 30 or so years.

      At any rate, for me, my karma has been that “Be careful of what you ask for” because I got it, in spades and I am telling you some of these primals have been fantastic, not the over-used-rendered-almost useless “fantastic” either, but…preternatural.

      It’s not something I should medicate with alcohol nor should I insulate myself with food to seek succor. I could, of course, but the hour is getting late.

      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: Yeah!!! all that hate, lies, ego, me or you; is sickening.

        What happened to Trump and his followers, in their own baby-hoods? We sure are on a path to no-where. 😦 😦 😦 .


  94. Sylvia says:

    Yes, Margaret, a sight to behold I imagine. Wonder if trump has a portrait of himself covered up that, like the movie, “The sins of Dorian Gray” that show all the evil debauchery in a hideous likeness of what he has become. Such an unveiling would surely cause a gasp. Oh what has become of us to think such things.

  95. Margaret says:

    despite my usual pre-activity irrational anxiety, ‘I won’t be up to it’,which I tried to ignore, and which started dissipating while i was going through all the motions of getting ready, i had a wonderful day of sailing today!
    splendid, perfect weather, warm sunny, and with a good strong wind!
    I have been wlmost the entire day on the water in different boats, good company, lovely breeze, occasional splatter of water due to our speed, a lot of hanging to the side with the wind, mmmm, lovely lovely!
    I did it with Sailability, an organisation that works with local yacht clubs to provide the opportunity to people with some disability to sail, so the assistants are volunteers and really nice people.
    I am learning more and more about sailing and it is so uplifting, wind, water, movement, peaceful as there are only natural sounds, often a lot of physical action, and some good conversations during the calm moments of sailing , or just silence and enjoyment.
    feel all rosy after so much sun and wind and water, and after feeling so good for so many hours in a row!!

  96. Margaret says:

    That’s great you had such a good time sailing.

  97. Margaret says:

    I just got back from driving my wife to the airport. On the way back I had a lot of sad feelings;
    certainly more than the situation calls for. We had an especially good week after having a fight.
    This time (for a change) she was the one very upset about my ignoring her, which is usually one of my complaints. She let loose on me, which was probably a good thing, although I got very defensive. It led to us quickly recovering.
    It just feels wrong that I’m not also going on this trip or at least joining her later. It feels like losing something good (even if only for a month), and missing out on everything I could be enjoying. I think it just triggered losing a lot of good things in my childhood. Everything really. It brought out some memories about my brother, and I was realizing how his falling apart overlapped with what happened to my mother, over a number of years.

  98. Phil says:

    Those last two comments were mine. I was sure I had signed in. I have been enjoying the World Cup but am kind of devastated by Spain’s loss to Russia. That shouldn’t have happened as Russia is a low ranking team. A reminder why I don’t normally follow sports. I can get wrapped up in it, and experience big disappointments.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Phil: Russia/Spain soccer game. Don’t go for all that competitiveness, it’s a win/lose things. I’m so far from any sport. But then that was a daddy thing when I was little. He took me to a Rugby match, his thing, and propped me up on a crush rail and all I could think of was all these grown men running around in short pants and my dad screaming and yelling. It didn’t make sense to the little me. I think I was about 2 or 3 y/o.
      The only joy was at half time he bought me a hot Bovril drink that tasted so good. I think that beverage has now gone out of style.

      There is a sequel to that event which is sort of weird. That night I dreamed that I was inside the shorts of one of those players and hanging on like grim death as he ran around the field. It wasn’t a bad feeling … in fact it sort of felt good.

      I kinda know it’s a part of my homosexuality. The weirdness is that I was so young. Maybe it accounts for my current weirdness, that many over the years have reminded me of.

      Maybe some one might be able to give me a few more clues on all this. Don’t hesitate … I can take it.


      • Phil says:

        In the case of the World Cup I’m not competing myself, only watching. Now I will adopt other teams; Mexico, Uruguay, and Columbia. So, as you see I’m quite flexible.
        I don’t see anything wrong with a friendly competition. I play racquetball at a gym and the challenge in that is trying to improve my game, and I get an excellent workout while having fun. Much better than running on treadmills. But I don’t like it if any competition gets too serious.
        Your dream reminds me a little of some past dreams and fantasies I’ve had. In my case
        I’ve thought it had to do with a desire to be attached, stuck to the other person. Something good rather than feeling unwanted, not belonging to anyone.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Phil: In my later childhood, between 5 and 11 I used to play a lot of games with other kids.
          They were sort of competitive, but not to the point of gloating over winning. Just running around, kicking a ball, or hitting a tennis ball with a cricket bat, then afterwords just went off home for a meal, and forget about the play.

          My feeling is more with respect to spectator sport and all that stuff my dad did after going to the Rugby match every Saturday and analysing the game afterwards, particularly if his team lost, which was the case more often than not.
          I got the feeling later in life that it was grown men, yelling and screaming, that should have been more relevant in childhood. There’s a whole different mind-set to indulging in a game, especially if it’s not involved in money. Both the professional sports people and the spectators that indulge it, I find suspect. It’s called “entertainment” … sort of an artificial means to stimulate a thrill … as I view it.

          • Phil says:

            There are many forms of entertainment: spectator sports, plays, concerts, movies, TV shows, comedy routines, books etc. Maybe some are more educational than others, but they often serve the same purpose, I think.


            • Jack Waddington says:

              The other entertaining forms are direct in their appeal to spectators/readers/audiences. Sport is sort of an exception. Art, as I see it, is an artificial stimulant of feelings. Not real feelings for if they were, that’d be real life. Sport IMO is not Art.

              A case in point for me is Golf. As a kid at high school in order to make some spending money, I went off to caddie at the local golf course. I lugged around a big heavy bag of ten or so sticks for one of the golfers, batting little rubber ball over some mowed grass driveway with ponds and sand bunkers, to get in his way; in order to put that little rubber ball in a little hole in the ground. I was expected to see on teeing off, where that ball went flying of to; and be able to find it, which I failed to do. The golfer I was caddying for was talking to his golf competitor about business and they seemed more intent on business deals than entertainment.

              Now I see Golf has become a spectator sport, least-ways on CNN with a program “Living Golf”. Not sure what those spectators get out of it. But it seems the professionals get great delight when putting their little ball in the hole with less strokes than their competitor. I don’t see what there is to get so excited about.

              In a none neurotic world I feel strongly there would be no need for Spectator Sport, Art, maybe even Science and Education … further: Culture, Religion, Governments, Laws, State borders, and Money and all the trapping that go with the above. Life would be simple … not Utopian, but manageable from our very own instincts.


  99. Margaret says:

    yes, I can feel how this kind of activity makes me feel younger and healthier and increases my self-confidence .
    in august I will have an entire week of sailing and living together with volunteers and people with disabilities who are all into sailing and kayaking, a great experience, like a sporty kind of retreat…

    • Larry says:

      That’s wonderful Margaret. Rich experiences like that with people are life affirming and even life altering, especially for those of us in primal therapy.

  100. Margaret says:

    that part of the dream feeling makes sense to me, or better said i guess I can relate somehow.
    last night I had a strange dream, me and someone were in a car, the other one driving, when suddenly an SUV came on the road from a little street on the right, completely ignoring the fact were speeding up on that part of the road and had priority as well.
    I started cursing as the only remedy for us would be to move to the opposite side of the road to pass him by, a fast but not impossible move, but then to my horror I saw he was not turning onto the road to go in the same direction as we were, but intended to cross the street, and at the very last split second I realized myself this would end in a fatal and violent way, and i woke up, stil startled.
    it was such a brief but conscious facing of the coming end, and at first seemed to come completely out of the blue, and then I thought maybe as I felt so good at going to bed, it was safe enough to get a first brief glimpse of a much bigger feeling in some accessible way, a starter so to say.
    i say this as all those previous feelings of ‘I won’t be able to cope’ seem to be linked to an increasing terror of really not making it and dying.
    but that terror has only been briefly touched on on some rare moments and exceptional situations before therapy.
    and maybe in all those dreams of being threatened by murderous persons, who knows.
    but this dream was really unexpected in its brief clarity and detail.
    if I would not know better now, I would have imagined it might have been some memory from a past life or something, as vivid as it was, but well, primal experience points to a much more probable origin…

  101. Phil says:

    Here’s an interesting dream I had a few days ago. I was looking out the window to my back yard and could see someone from the retreat and other people in my garden taking my vegetables. Sometimes I have a problem with critters getting in there, but this time it was people. I tapped on the window to scare them away, but it didn’t work. Finally, my wife opened the window to yell, and they went away. I’m not really sure what it means.


  102. Margaret says:

    haha, that is a special dream, an unexpected setting for sure…
    I am curious as to how you felt in the dream about your wife’s success at chasing them away. after all they were after your vegetables, so how did you feel?

  103. Margaret says:


  104. Margaret says:

    what do you mean?
    I hope you don’t conclude I believe in the same me having lived former lives?
    I am an agnostic, we simply haven’t gotten a clue about most of our universe and its reality or unreality, which is nice as there should be some mystery for me.
    I see consciousness as some kind of side effect of life, but one with unknown depths to it, but I mostly trust my own experience and knowledge, a combination of scientific information with a lot of reservations on its accuracy, but well, I do love physics and astronomy and biology etc.
    as a teenager before having heard of primal therapy I was interested in those ‘hidden secrets’, possible secrets, like ancient Egypt, kabbala, Tibetan soul travelling etc. hoping to find a deeper meaning or whatever.
    also I always thought it would be wonderful to see a real ufo or hey, to meet aliens.
    what is left is an open mind for trustworthy information, or what feels like it anyway, and a better connection with my own inner world.
    my dream life is very satisfying in its variety and often makes pieces fall together.
    but past lives or heaven or whatever sound like, mmm, it would be nice and I like to think of deceased loved ones as if they are still there somewhere, but I am not counting on that at all.
    but still that does not make all existence less worthwhile, life and consciousness is miraculous enough as it is, without adding fancy dreams, and the universe as well with its inconceivable vastness and inconceivable quantum tininess is an ongoing source of fascination.
    and I am convinced other life forms must exist out there, myriads of them, in all the coloufullness and variety we can get a taste of on this here planet which we are so careless with.
    so Fred, do you believe in past life experiences?

  105. FRED says:

    July 2, 2018


    that part of the dream feeling makes sense to me, or better said i guess I can relate somehow.
    last night I had a strange dream, me and someone were in a car, the other one driving, when suddenly an SUV came on the road from a little street on the right, completely ignoring the fact were speeding up on that part of the road and had priority as well.

    I started cursing as the only remedy for us would be to move to the opposite side of the road to pass him by, a fast but not impossible move, but then to my horror I saw he was not turning onto the road to go in the same direction as we were, but intended to cross the street, and at the very last split second I realized myself this would end in a fatal and violent way, and i woke up, stil startled.

    it was such a brief but conscious facing of the coming end, and at first seemed to come completely out of the blue, and then I thought maybe as I felt so good at going to bed, it was safe enough to get a first brief glimpse of a much bigger feeling in some accessible way, a starter so to say.

    i say this as all those previous feelings of ‘I won’t be able to cope’ seem to be linked to an increasing terror of really not making it and dying.

    but that terror has only been briefly touched on on some rare moments and exceptional situations before therapy.

    and maybe in all those dreams of being threatened by murderous persons, who knows.
    but this dream was really unexpected in its brief clarity and detail.

    if I would not know better now, I would have imagined it might have been some memory from a past life or something, as vivid as it was, but well, primal experience points to a much more probable origin…


    what do you mean? I hope you don’t conclude I believe in the same me having lived former lives?

    I am an agnostic, we simply haven’t gotten a clue about most of our universe and its reality or unreality, which is nice as there should be some mystery for me.

    I see consciousness as some kind of side effect of life, but one with unknown depths to it, but I mostly trust my own experience and knowledge, a combination of scientific information with a lot of reservations on its accuracy, but well, I do love physics and astronomy and biology etc.

    as a teenager before having heard of primal therapy I was interested in those ‘hidden secrets’, possible secrets, like ancient Egypt, kabbala, Tibetan soul travelling etc. hoping to find a deeper meaning or whatever.

    also I always thought it would be wonderful to see a real ufo or hey, to meet aliens. what is left is an open mind for trustworthy information, or what feels like it anyway, and a better connection with my own inner world.

    my dream life is very satisfying in its variety and often makes pieces fall together.

    but past lives or heaven or whatever sound like, mmm, it would be nice and I like to think of deceased loved ones as if they are still there somewhere, but I am not counting on that at all.
    but still that does not make all existence less worthwhile, life and consciousness is miraculous enough as it is, without adding fancy dreams, and the universe as well with its inconceivable
    vastness and inconceivable quantum tininess is an ongoing source of fascination.

    and I am convinced other life forms must exist out there, myriads of them, in all the coloufullness and variety we can get a taste of on this here planet which we are so careless with.
    so Fred, do you believe in past life experiences?


    July 2, 2018

    I had a somewhat similar dream in 1968. I was 19 at the time, a freshman in college, living at home, attending Central State College (now called the University of Central Oklahoma) in Edmond, Oklahoma, about 10 miles from my parents’ house in The Village, OK near Oklahoma City.

    In the dream, it was in the 1800s, maybe around 1872 or so. I was on a horse with 2 women, also on horses. We were being chased by Indians.

    It was a different kind of dream, played out like a movie, vivid. There seemed to be none of the usual distortions and symbolic stuff of a “normal” dream.

    In the dream, I watched as one, then the other woman was killed by the Indians. To an extent I’ve “blocked out” the details of how they were killed but I think it was by “tomahawk” and/or “bow & arrow”.

    Then it was “my turn”. Talk about nowhere to hide! I couldn’t ride fast enough to escape my murderer. I am about to die!

    Just before I was about to be killed by an Indian-on-a-horse, my consciousness separated from my body and I watched the event, that is to say I was having a dream in which I was watching myself be killed by Indians but I felt no pain. When I woke up (immediately) I had the impression that, indeed, it was a past life script coming into awareness although the concept of “past lives” was not completely formed in my mind by this stage in my life.

    That same autumn, 1968, I had two other strange experiences. Indulge me a moment.

    In another dream, I was at Wedgewood Amusement Park in Oklahoma City.

    Wedgewood could be described as your typical amusement park of the day: roller coaster, dodge-‘em cars, Octopus ride, fun house, Wild Mouse, etc.

    Wedgewood also had a “turnpike ride” that was very fun if you were under 13. The cars were these go-carts with governors on the carburetors and you drove on this “turnpike” with “Kerr McGee Oil Company billboards”. Right next to the ride was a rather large and spacious area, a picnic pavilion with open sides, and next to that a great swimming pool. They also had a driving range and a miniature golf course. In short, it was a real fun place!

    During the 1960s Wedgewood (and its competitor across town, Springlake) had rock ‘n roll and country artists, playing every weekend and at Wedgewood, they played for teen dances! It was all a lot of fun if you were a teenager from, say, the mid-1950s through 1969 (Wedgewood closed in 1970). Elvis played at Springlake early in his career, I’m told.

    For example, on 9/04/1965, a Saturday night, the Yardbirds from England played at a teen hop at Wedgewood. I think admission was $1.25 and for $3.50 you could ride all the rides!

    The Who played there twice–in 1966 and 1968!

    I didn’t go to either “hop” and I’m still kicking myself for not going to the August 1968 dance. Only 14 years later I paid a huge amount to see them at the Cotton Bowl in Dallas, this after Keith Moon was dead! Can you imagine how much more intimate it was being at a dance with Pete Townsend, Roger Daltry, John Entwhistle a few feet away cranking out “My Generation” or “Happy Jack” or “I Can See for Miles”? I wonder if they destroyed their guitars back then.

    What is the purpose of all this reminiscing?

    Well, it was maybe mid-autumn 1968 that I had another extremely vivid dream.

    The Beatles were at Wedgewood Amusement Park. They were walking away from the aforementioned picnic pavilion. They were more or less dressed like the Beatles on Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club album cover which was released on June 1, 1967. It was all in exceedingly vivid color, almost exaggerated. I remember seeing Paul, John and George, not necessarily Ringo. I especially recall Paul.

    In the fall of 1968, for my sophomore year in college, although I didn’t know what I wanted to do in life (still don’t) but knew I needed to avoid the rice paddies of Vietnam, I transferred to the University of Oklahoma, Norman, OK. There I had no roommate; he moved out.

    I knew nobody and couldn’t make new friends at the dorm. Most of my friends from high school had gone on with their lives, attended other schools, etc. I was in a lot of pain, enormous loneliness over the fact that the days of high school were over (albeit 16 months earlier).

    I went home every weekend and many nights drove to see a couple of girls I knew in Oklahoma City, both who were still in high school. I rarely ate at the cafeteria as I was excruciatingly self-conscious about being alone.

    On September 30, 1968, I wrote a sad “lost love” song called “Goodbye September” (©2008 I received the copyright in 2008). To cut to the chase, in April, 1968; we’ll say six months later, British singer Mary Hopkin released a song that was a pretty big hit on the Billboard Top 100. It was called “Goodbye”.

    Guess what. “Goodbye” was EERILY similar to my song “Goodbye September”. There were a number of strange things about the song that seem very close to “plagiarism”.

    You might say: “Big deal”, so what? Some woman released a record with the word ‘goodbye’ in the title and a few similar lyrics; and six months earlier you, on your primitive little Montgomery Wards Silvertone guitar, strummed a few chords, wrote down some lyrics which included the word ‘goodbye’, and you are now implying it was not a coincidence? Give me a break. You never published the song. It was never performed except for one of your friends who was a student at the University of Missouri, this over Thanksgiving break. There wasn’t somebody standing outside of your dorm room with a little Radio Shack tape recorder. Give me a break and get a life, bloke”.

    And I would reply: “Not so fast, pal. Mary Hopkin was the first recording artist signed to Apple Records, the new record company of the Beatles in 1968. Her first song “Those Were the Days” was a big hit in 1968. ‘Goodbye’ was her follow-up in the spring of ‘69.”

    You might reply: “I think you’re a bit daft, mate. Sure, it’s a bit strange that Mary Hopkin was on the Beatles new record label but that proves nothing else”.

    To this I might reply, “But there is more. Paul McCartney WROTE the song ‘Goodbye’ for Mary Hopkin. Did Paul plagiarize me in that vivid dream from the fall of 1968? I’m not so sure he didn’t, that is, through the dream state”.

    Another possibility is that we both ripped of the Beatles’ song “Hello, Goodbye”, released the fall of 1967. That song was on the Beatles’ “Magical Mystery Tour” album and was written by Paul, so conceivably he ripped his own song off in 1969 and I coincidentally ripped it off too in 1968
    that is, through the dream state”.

  106. Phil says:

    I think that spectator sports can be considered a kind of drama. I just saw the end of the Belgium / Japan World Cup match. Belgium won at the very end in an exciting play running all the way down the field to score.
    I think sports can be more exciting to watch than scripted dramas. Unless there is some fixing of the game; we don’t know who will win ahead of time, and we see it happening live. It’s all trivial. But so are movies, novels, plays, and TV shows. It’s just for entertainment. If someone enjoys it, what’s wrong with that?

  107. Margaret says:

    that idea of ‘dream connection’ is one I do not entirely exclude.
    although if i get your story right isn’t it also possible Paul just worked out that first song as well as you used it ? or maybe I interpreted it wrong. but after all we are talking here about the mechanisms and if they do exist isn’t it?

    I have had two dream experiences which made me wonder, one in which i had a vivid dream of rescuing my mom by jumping into the muddy water she had fallen into and getting her up to the surface safely. on my next visit, a day or maybe two days later, she told me she had had an experience during the night in which she felt she was dying, and was on the verge of letting go, but then she thought she heard me calling and decided to struggle to stay alive for me.
    I hadn’t told her about my own dream at that point yet!

    the other event was so trivial it increases its interest for me, as no emotions at play at all here.
    I was gona go to the movies the next day and dreamed about it and being there with my boyfriend of that time. in the dream I met a girlfriend in the waiting line who i had not seen for a long time.

    the next day nothing happened until we got out of the movie theatre, in the group of people right before us, someone turned around and said ‘Margaret, is that really you??’
    guess what, it was her. furthermore I realized myself she had completely changed her hairstyle and colour, and it was the same as in my dream, the only difference is we met on the way out and not on the way in. even her turning around was so similar as my dream…

    as I say, a very trivial event, but it felt kind of intriguing , which i like, and after all, our brains send out waves which even a technical device can pick up and learn to translate nowadays, as the newest tools use this way to activate computers or tv’s or wahtever for paralized people with scanning the brainwaves first while the person focuses on one specific thing and then learns to recognize them and turn them into a command to switch something on or off.
    even monkeys have learned to operate tools in this way, to get some food by thinking of the same action they had to perform at first to get it.
    gradually the activating device for the food is deactivated and only works by picking up the brain waves, and in the end the monkey does not even reach for the handle anymore but uses his thought to activate it.
    of course here the receiver is still an electrical device but well, we are too.
    so there is a physical basis why in some cases brain to brain communication might be happening if those brains are well tuned in to each other maybe.
    just a hypothesis of course, just wondering, not believing.

  108. Otto Codingian says:

    I was about to take my nap when something i had heard a few months ago from some primal therapist came into my mind. i have been sending emails to rachel maddow lately with ideas that democrats could do to fight trump’s madness. today i sent something a little more humorous, and i felt good about it. but when i send these emails, i generally feel good about doing it. contributing to the cause, in my only small way.

  109. Otto Codingian says:

    what i said to this primal therapist is that i used to be home alone a lot as a child, and i would make things, like put together a Frankenstein or Wolfman model from a kit…glue and paint. I said i did not know if i was defending or something like that. this PT said happily, “You were expressing yourself!’

  110. Otto Codingian says:

    Which was good to hear Now as i write this, i am remembering that a lot of my pain is about not having beening able to express myself freely to my grandmother and others in childhood. but anyway, i had a quick thought that maybe a hallmark of being human was being able to express ourselves. But then immediately i remembered that chimps also do that and very loudly. Then i came to think that even red flowers bright and blooming was also an expression.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I agree with all that. and especially about the flowers blooming in our garden right now. They’re telling me that life is great for them to be alive.


  111. Otto Codingian says:

    which killed my ideas of what makes a human human. it is more like, expression is what makes life life. which seemed important to me to express immediately to someone, but now it does not seem to lead anywhere so i go sleep now.

  112. Margaret says:

    yesterday in the comments about the match from Belgium against Japan, there was a heart specialist, talking about how risk increases with a factor 4 during exciting moments in sports for spectators with heart disease.
    for the others too but in a lesser way.
    then he added that being introvert or extrvert also makes a difference, people who express themselves by cheering loudly for a goal have less risk, those who keep it all in much more risk…
    see what i mean, things are gradualu improving in the viewpoints on the importance of emotion and its expression.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Did it need an art specialist to tell us what it so obvious.

      I remember from years ago when we were living on the street that led to the rugby stadium and one guy leaving the match dropped dead right outside our door. I kinda knew then what the cause was.

      I also knew it was the only time (winter Saturdays) my father was able to express a feeling of joy. Anger seemed to be part of his DNA.

      Is it any wonder I became (according to some) a Primal fanatic .


      • Jack Waddington says:

        wooops!!! big a big pun there, not intended, more like a Freudian slip.

        I meant Heart specialist … not Art. I must be loosing it ever soooo sloooowly. Or maybe not so slooooowly.


    • Phil says:

      That seems to be a sad state of affairs when a little excitement poses such a health risk.

  113. Margaret says:

    what do you mean wen you say the movie dream was pre-cognitive?

  114. Margaret says:

    for those at work, first half match Belgium Brazili 2 to 0 !

  115. Margaret says:

    haaa, 2 to 1 for Belgium against Brasil!!!
    what is nice is that for a while the tensions between our maroccan Belgians and the others are gone, Maroccans running over the streets waving Belgian flags, this seems to have a positive effect for the unity of our quarreling country, flemish, french, white black and brown all together!
    i was surprised at how I got sucked in, I really did not want our team to lose anymore at all towards the end,it seems to trigger some deep engraved group reflex and well, it just feels good to identify with the happy winners, haha, cars honking happily in the streets right now!!
    and haha, just two more games to win and I get that real icecream next summer!!

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: You seem so hooked on getting that ice cream. Poor Barry he might lose out. 🙂 🙂


  116. Phil says:

    Margaret, congratulations to you and Belgium for beating Brazil; they were the World Cup favorite. I will be rooting for Belgium in the the game against France, and maybe to win the whole thing.

  117. Phil says:

    I’m not doing that well here by myself with my wife gone for the month. I end up doing stuff that I had hoped and decided I wouldn’t do.
    At work somebody messed something up with one of my instruments while I was on vacation at the retreat, and it came back to bite me today. Since I normally run the whole show, it wasn’t something I would have guessed. So, it didn’t enter into may thinking and made me very late. Frustrating on a Friday.

  118. Barry M says:

    Hi Margaret,
    Well I hate to admit it, but it looks like I may have to come out of retirement and do a couple of long distance bus trips across Canada and back to be able to afford to buy you all the ice cream I’m going to owe you. Belgium deserves everything that they have achieved, and regardless of my possible bankruptcy I find myself rooting for Belgium over France (despite their awesome ‘baguettes du fromage et jambon)
    My England team, whilst still in the fray, has failed to inspire me, and even if they ‘sissily’ pull out a victory tomorrow, I would still be surprised if they managed to reach the finals against Belgium.


    Congratulations on your win over Brazil (and Neymar’s rollovers)


  119. Margaret says:

    I tried to find out why this football game started affecting me much more than I expected, and I think it was the sympathy and empathy I started to feel automatically for the players, the hard work they were doing and their hopes…
    of course if I would have Brasilian roots the other group would have felt like my ‘in group’.
    and I still feel sorry for Neimar, sorry if I spell his name wrong, and his despair at the end of the game. those pictures were on some front pages and I am not sure how that must feel, not sure if that is really ok but well, it is a public game for sure.
    the emotions involved seem very contagious, a lot of people like me who usually do not care about football become caught.
    so well, can’t help but being glad we won, smiley, poor Neimar, or Neymar…
    hey Barry,
    please do not do that long busride, smiley, don’t think I can eat an entire gallon anyway, even while I have no idea of how much that is…

    Phil, sorry to hear about that setback with the instruments and being on your own this month. are your sons both away as well?

  120. Phil says:

    One son is here and he has a summer job and working hard. At other times he’s mostly with his friends, as he should be.
    I had big feelings last night. I was in the hospital for days when I was 4, for an abscess in my throat Desperate feelings being left alone with strangers and no one coming to visit. One evening my mother finally showed up, which was good, but I don’t think I got to go home that day.
    The feeling are about desperately wanting my mother. she’s not there, not coming, and when she does arrive, she’s unresponsive.

  121. Margaret says:

    that sounds so sad…

  122. Otto Codingian says:

    such a big feeling for me. trying to connect to liberals to fight this child abuse and torture. now wife fell off porch so i must go help her.–politics.html some primal therapist or me told me to fight, fight fight, years ago.d not sure what this feeling is.

  123. Margaret says:

    just heard a life performance on tv of ‘Nessum dorma’ from Puccini, and it got hold on me, triggered me by the pure sound of its expressed pain and despair and sadness. Puccini really is the greatest for me with the pureness of emotions in his arias.
    just listening to this, feeling calm and relaxed to start with, made tears flow out of my eyes, no real reason to be sad, just the music being so heartbreaking in its message.
    if someone feels a need to cry give this a try, there must be versions on the web.
    I have come to a stage I don’t even think about the codeine painkillers anymore, and I sleep well and have no headaches.
    feel fit as well, have done sports regularly and that feels good.
    have a lot of sailing to come still this summer, yihaa!
    in september there will be a day of sea sailing and my best girlfriend will come along on the trip, I look forward to that and she too.

    mom is doing well, brother too, cats as well and my social life has improved a lot.
    tuesday Belgium plays the half finals against France, go go go Belgium, haha!
    am slowly chewing my way through test theory , the classical version and the item response version if someone cares.
    not my cup of tea but I am making slow progress, taking it easy on this one, after all it is a nice hot summer here for a change!

    • Sylvia says:

      Sounds like you are having a good summer, Margaret. I’ve been tending a garden and hiding from the heat wave. Sailing sounds like a cool thing to do.

  124. Sylvia says:

    There is an interview on you tube of Alice Miller’s son by a psychologist mentioned on the blog before, a Daniel Mackler. If the link does not work, you all can find it by typing on you tube: interview with psychologist Alice Miller’s son, Martin Miller.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Sylvia: I was able to view the video and watched it all the way through.

      I had very little regards for her before I saw this video and now I have even less regards for her. Never once was it mentioned in this video where Alice Miller got her idea from, to write “The Drama of the Gifted Child”. It was a sort of plagiarism of Janov and his work NOT hers. In this sense, to me, she was a sham. I would not have wished to have done therapy with her and feel she was a “Mock Primal therapist”.

      What she did accomplish was to bring forward the notion that most of our psychological problems stem for early childhood …, but that is about all I can give her.

      One last factor was the video of her son Martin, looked more like a female than a male. Was he a cross dresser?


    • Larry says:

      Thanks for that interesting video, Sylvia. Of secondary interest to me is the various ways he used the word “split” or “split off”, and not in the early primal literature implied meaning of there being a supposed primal split when a person supposedly became more neurotic than real (how that is measured I can’t imagine). Every defense we have, and as we know there are many, is a split from our real selves, as I see it.

  125. Margaret says:

    I only partially agree with you. some feelings com to the surface triggered by thoughts and ideas or events, but sometimes the feeling rises triggered by music or the feeling first demands attention by causing tension and distress and then can rise to the surface by giving it space and attention and yes, finding the right words to focus it a lot of the time.
    on the other hand I have had a lot of tiny baby feelings, just wailing, and those are preverbal and not linkid to ideas, but pure instinctive and unmet need being the trigger.
    also one time I was in a group where someone started ranting loudly and he went on and on and on, and that resonating sound of aggression completely loose of its context started to make me feel I better lay down, and immediately I went to baby wails, which went on all the time the ranting continued, and immediately stopped when the ranting stopped.
    it felt to me on hindsight not even as distress yet, more like an inborn signal to use to communicate my growing state of dislike of the situation. no real fear or sadness at that stage, just a signal to want the disturbing sound to stop.
    it felt merely physical.
    some people assumed I must have felt scared, well no, not the case at all at that moment.
    so my point being it is not an ‘either ..or…’ situation, ideas or feeling first, both can happen, depending of the age of the person in the original feeling mostly.
    I think. does that make sense to you?
    or birth feelings, on hindsight or when the feeling bothers us in later stages of life, it can turn into ‘I won’t make it’, but in the original version that idea does not exist, not in words, but surely in its feeling form .
    would you refer to that also as ideation?
    just wondering, getting the terms clear is important to avoid unnecessary discussions.

  126. Margaret says:

    yes, sailing is cool, smiley!
    just went to buy myself some sailing gloves and boots, and the sales were on, so extra nice!
    now I am prepared to go out sailing in all kind of weather conditions, smiley, yihaa!

  127. Barry M says:

    Your game is just about to start Margaret. GO BELGIUM !!! (until they meet England at least)

    xo Barry

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Barry: Again it’s all “BALLS”. Foot balls, tennis balls, golf balls, cricket balls, base balls, Rugby balls, then there’s those other balls. I wonder if there isn’t some Freudian connection here. 🙂 🙂 .


  128. Margaret says:

    half time 0 0 seems harder this time,grrrr

  129. Phil says:

    Sorry Margaret, what a shame, I was rooting for Belgium. Well, I guess you can get ice cream another time.

  130. Margaret says:

    shit, the French have won, but with a very defensive way of playing, not a pretty style, but well, effective i guess…
    Barry, go go go for those chocolates!
    we can still go for the third place, not a bad one after all for our small country.
    I heard Ronaldo will go play in Italy for 30 million Euro a year, which i find pretty disgusting, that is 2,5 million Euro a month, must be about 3 million dollar, that is obscene and one can only imagine how much the clubs must gain to want to pay those amounts of money.
    all marketing and publicity money, pretty crazy…

  131. Margaret says:

    just wanting those French out of the competition now, haha, negative style of football and sabotaging a pretty game.
    ha, you would think I am a football fan, not really actually.
    still the Belgians have played well, and have one more match to play.

  132. Phil says:

    I don’t want France to win either, but I’m very impressed with Mbappe, an incredibly talented player and he is only 19 years old. I read that he will be playing for Paris and making 180 milliom Euros. Not bad. When I was younger I should have concentrated more on running around and kicking soccer balls.

  133. Renee says:

    Sylvia, thanks for sharing the link to the interview with Alice Miller’s son, Martin. I found it to be so interesting, insightful and thought-provoking. One of the things I was struck by was his needing to wait until his mother died to write about his experiences of being her son, out of fear of her retaliation. This reminded of the famed psychologist Bruno Bettelheim, who was also a holocaust survivor and who also wrote about, amongst other things, treating children humanely. Many years ago, I did an internship at his school in Chicago with what were then called ’emotionally disturbed’ children. I was surprised to discover how disrespectfully the children were responded to by the staff. It was around that time that Bettelheim died and some of his former students started coming out and sharing their experiences of physical abuse and beatings by him. When asked why they waited so long to share their stories they said they were too afraid to speak up while he was alive. This, despite the fact that they had long since left the school and were all adults.

  134. Sylvia says:

    Larry and Renee, that was interesting video, wasn’t it. Martin Miller had been through so much with the mistreatment from his mom and father too. There are other interviews and articles you can read if you are interested. If you google: ‘Martin Miller son of Alice Miller’ there is ‘Interview: Martin Miller Contemporary Psychotherapy.’ He talks more in depth about his mom and how she stole some of his concepts for her own book. Also on that google page further down is the article link: ‘Martin Miller’s book, ‘The true Drama of the Gifted Child,’ ( Screams from childhood, by Barbara Rogers.) which talks about the abuse and neglect Martin endured. It also, Renee, references Bettelheim and others who espoused freedom for children but acted otherwise. It’s a wonder how Martin survived as intact as he did.
    I agree, Larry, that the split from ourselves is obvious to us, whether we are primal or not. Many times growing up I thought to myself, who am I and why do I act this way.
    Thank you, Jack, also for your comment. Looks like Alice, through her pain was a con-artist who inadvertently helped people, and who couldn’t practice what she preached.

    • FRED says:

      July 11, 2018

      Very fascinating stuff. It seems that Alice Miller was even more than a hypocrite. This seems to be yet another situation where one should heed Janov’s admonition to steer clear of mock primal Therapists although in this situation we might say “Mock Dr. Janov”.

      Who can explain these things in their entirety?

  135. Barry M says:

    Score is 1 to 1 and I am SO STRESSED!!! Thank goodness it is only every 4 years !


    • Jack Waddington says:

      Barry: What is the point of getting stressed over 22 men, one ref, an d two linesmen over them kicking a football over a field with goal posts at either end and a crowd of thousands cheering or jeering over every movement????? I ask the question in all sincerity.

      On another note: I have been glued to the TV over the rescue operation of those Thai kids trapped in that cave with their coach. AND … how it affected thousands around the globe. Every time I saw videos of them tears streamed down my face.
      The connection is, I too was trapped, not in a cave, but first in a womb then later in a family, with the bread winner playing God.


      • Barry M says:

        Really Jack? What’s the point? Billions of people the world over have shared agony and ecstasy, and become one in that sharing of emotion. Not too shabby for a mere game.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Barry: Playing a game for the sake of a game is fine by me, and most of us did it in child-hood. It’s all the trappings of stadiums, grounds men, over paid ball kickers, referees blowing whistles, and lines men with flags, and the need to get a collective thrill; hoping to fuck your team beats the shit outta the other guys. I’m not sure it’s real expressions towards real feelings.


          • Barry M says:

            OK, maybe they weren’t real expressions towards real feelings, but still I cried real tears when England lost.

            • FRED says:

              July 12, 2018

              Whatever gets you through the night. One can say one hundred percent that human accomplishment, excellence extends to sports. Look at the NBA here in America, for example. Have you ever seen finer athletes? In each Olympics there seems to be greater, previously believed-to-be-impossible achievements.

              What are other areas of achievement for mankind?

              There is science, albeit certainly not always for the Better. I, for one, like electricity.

              There is technology, not always for the Better, but has been civilization-changing, for example, modern refrigeration; computers, for the most part.

              There is Primal Theory and concomitant development of adult-accessing of feelings.

            • Jack Waddington says:

              Barry: Nothing wrong with crying.


          • Tim says:

            My father used to enjoy the tale of the scientist, when asked whether or not he had enjoyed the violinist’s performance, replied that it was terrible. “It sounded like nothing better than someone dragging a horse’s tail across a cat’s guts”.

            My friend, Craig Clark asked if anyone remembered and/or had any way of getting in contact with a lady called Gabi who was going to the institute in the early 80’s. Craig’s daughter, Rebeckah, was friendly with Gabi’s daughter Martinique at that time, when they were both teenagers, and they were thinking how much they would like to get in contact with them again.

  136. Barry M says:

    I HATE SOCCER, IT’S A STUPID GAME and I never want to watch it again, Overpaid prima donnas need to get a real job.
    ps, Margaret, is it still a bet for England against Belgium for best loser? Same stakes!!!
    pps STUPID BLOODY GAME!!!! I HATE IT!!!!!!!!!

  137. Phil says:

    Hurray for Croatia! I found myself rooting for them as the game progressed. They have played so well throughout the tournament. If they win it all that would be an amazing story.

  138. Barry M says:

    This is how I feel right now!


  139. Phil says:

    I finally called up my aunt and uncle and gave them the news about my brother, something I wanted to avoid having to do at all, because it was such old news. But they didn’t seem to want to hear much about it, I think they wanted to let me off the hook easy. I’m glad that’s done with, but I don’t
    know if it means I’ll feel any less guilty. Probably not, is what it seems so far.


  140. Otto Codingian says:

    i am stilll in such a big feeling about immigrant kids being torn away from their parents. BABIES. i post daily on the aclu website with my suggestions and from what Lee Gelernt, ACLU, says on the rachel maddow show makes me teary. of course, being the well-defended person that i am, i won’t allow myself to even try to connect to this feeling. i am worried about making insanely-loud cries that the neighbors or my wife will hear. i no longer can push myself to go use the little room on saturdays to feel, or to go to barry’s group. i am not sure why, but it involves my wife. anyway, the aclu guy has got a good judge and he says he is reading the many comments that he is getting from many people on the aclu website, and that the judge will be asking him for suggestions on how to punish the Trump administration for their failure to reunite the families, or actually aclu really is mostly concerned with reuniting more than punishinng the trump bitch. anyway, part of my feeling is that i am being heard, that i do have some power in this; unlike when i was torn from my mom’s breast (so to speak) at age 10 months and placed in hell with uncaring relatives.

    • Phil says:

      This is one of those stories that is so upsetting that I can’t really look much at it.
      I think it’s great that you post on the ACLU website.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: Tearing children and babies from parents is the worst; then being done in order to show your political base that you are keeping some campaign promise is neurosis up the ying yang. I just want to scream at them, for such insidious behavior.


  141. Otto Codingian says:

    I was kind of dreading the coming of summer, somewhat due to the excessive heat that summer brings where I live in the valley. And this past week has been hotter than usual, although we survived without our neighborhood losing power, so far. I took my old dog sophie for her nightly walk at the lake. Wife didn’t want to come tonight and so we took a leisurely walk with a lot of standing so sophie could look at anything that caught her eye, people walking whatever. Sometimes I can catch small glimpses of people walking by, as I don’t like to stare at people. I like to look at the geese and ducks and they were not overly afraid of sophie tonight, although one leatherfaced duck hissed at us to move away. Sophie feels ok with looking at anything freely. She has more and more stood and looked at things the past year, she was not able to do this when we had the other dogs that liked to trot. So we stood or she walked a little to go smell gopher holes. I am writing about my small life here; it is coming to an end, which makes me sad. I have an old feeling of never having had anything, and now I feel sad that my life is heading towards the black. Anyway, it was sunset, with the light that brings out warm intense colors that I like. I don’t usually see much beauty in anything, but I have felt a small sense of pleasure the past 3 nights. I took a few pictures with my old folks phone, I doubt if I will upload them to youtube, I have no idea what the f instagram is. Monday and Tuesday my wife came with us on the walk and then she wanted to drive around so we drove up one long boulevard Monday, and a different one last night, so we could look at shit. Simple shit, no champs elysee, just mom and pop businesses, fast food places. Last night was interesting in that the boulevard was lined with palm trees, which reminded her of Beverly hills she said. And it felt good enough to be doing this driving and sight-seeing, mostly latino or apartments or old housing and the small businesses, pawn shops, whatever, and the traffic was ok. Wife did not want to go with us tonight so I felt a little disappointed; we don’t have much together, just the 40 years of struggle for me just to make a living, but happier life for her maybe. But it felt kind of good to not be alone those 2 nights she came with me and the dog. Anyway, I have no idea what my life is. I would probably be dead without my job. Today me and my new young co-worker went to the warehouse to scan barcodes on new computers that had arrived. I have felt good for months now, about being around the outgoing black warehouse guy who laughs and calls me uncle, even though he is almost as old as me. Anyway, I feel something here, not sure what. Maybe this is “good enough” as one sage therapist told me once when i was lamenting how i fucked up my kids. get up at 4am and go move computers from one end of the building and then back to where they were, and filling out forms to get rid of those computers, and laughing with my co-workers and generally, I guess it is a good life, although I still have most of my massive amount of pain inside, both from my childhood, and also from my adult life, which just became an horrible extension of that childhood pain. Caused so much pain to my kids and they barely made it out of childhood alive. They are somewhat ok now, although estranged from each other and I need to help that situation out, but I can barely make it through the day most of the time. We have been seeing the 2 grandkids more and more, which I think I like, they are a joy. My life. Life. The cats like to be petted, one of them tries to nurse on my shirt when I pet him even though he is 12. My life, tiny-ass bits of ok and “when life looks like easy street, there is danger at your door.” What a fucking struggle this has been!….wahhhh

  142. Margaret says:

    haha, sure, you’re on!
    I guess watching a game of one’s own country at this level tends to take us along on the rollercoaster of all that massive hope of the audience and players as it is difficult not to identify with them.
    and then disappointment strikes.
    I feel it will affect me less in our next game, if we lose you win Barry, haha, and we are all underdogs now so the sympathy goes around, but hey, I still prefer Belgium to win, i think, yes, sorry, but I’d be happy for you if England does.
    Ice cream and chocolates on the way!

    • Barry M says:

      I agree with everything you say. I actually couldn’t believe how much this World Cup affected me. I left England in 1959 and wandered the world for a while until I ended up in Canada, but I guess what’s in your blood stays there throughout your life. When England lost, then as the song says, my heart was breaking, my hands were shaking, and I needed someone to care.
      Let’s just enjoy the game, and how perfect would it be if it ended up in a draw?
      Either way I’m going to buy you an ice cream next time we’re together!!!

  143. Margaret says:

    I sure hope they kick France out!
    I am surprised as well about Croatia, they seem to come out of the blue, small country, do they have expensive players or all mostly Croatians?

  144. Phil says:

    Croatia has a few stars. Luka Modric plays for Real Madrid, and Ivan Rakatic plays for Barcelona.
    I think for the World Cup all players have to have some kind of connection to the country they play for. I’m not sure how it works; if they have to be citizens or what.
    Some would say that the France is representing Africa in the World Cup. Half of their roster seems to be recent immigrants from former French colonies.That’s fine but it’s too bad those players don’t play for their original countries and give them more of a chance.

  145. Margaret says:

    that comment of yours was touching to read, very well written too.

  146. Phil says:

    Maybe all the World Cup players should get trophies. and the fans ice cream, so they don’t feel bad.

  147. Otto Codingian says:

    10. saw a little girl on the gong show, 10 years old, doing a creative short dance/skit. she seemed brighter than me, when i was 10. now i am obsessed with 10. i wish i could remember more about 10. got embarrassed in front of the whole class in my new school at 10. no time to remember 10, going to bed, maybe i will dream about 10. i feel like something is unfinished there. some great traumas at 10. moved away from my loving aunt and uncle and 3rd grade girl friend at 10. whatever. feels self-indulgent to even think about it. going to bed so i can lift heavy boxes of pc hard drives in the morning. hope the judge reems the trump administration tomorrow, for failing to reunite asylum babies and moms, as they were ordered to do so.

  148. Margaret says:

    I feel slightly down today, despite having cleaned up, studied, cooked and read and am laying comfortably on bed with a cat on each side.
    I am getting to know someone new through the dating site who seems nice and interesting, and he has a large sailing boat.
    it makes me think about how it would be to be on some Caribbean island with the boat, and then it dawned on me even there I would still feel the isolation caused by my visual disability.
    it impedes me so much in enjoying all the pleasures that seemed so natural before, looking around, sitting somewhere and just looking at what happens, people passing by, birds flying, flowers, even just an old newspaper being blown by the wind, all that not within my reach anymore, but being dependent mostly on sounds and conversations and having to accept the frustration of being so limited.
    I was so very visually oriented, looking was like eating and drinking.
    that pain can not be taken away not even by a very loving person by my side.
    of course a very loving person by my side would make things a lot better, but it is difficult to imagine to find that kind of love from someone, my fear being that person would get tired of my limitations and need for assistance.
    guess I am overly pessimistic, I do have a lot to offer and it is good to notice a large part of me does feel that way.
    but it is so very sad to have lost so much of my freedom to roam around and investigate freely, and to make contact easily with new people.
    very sad.

    • FRED says:

      Honestly, I would try fasting. It is miraculous. Many toxins will be flushed from body including emotional. Therein, is the nugget but both are completely related.

      I’m telling you. It does work but hold on. Some of your illusions may be shattered.

      • Margaret says:

        no clue what you are talking about. which illusions?
        no need to fast for me, you are projecting here I guess. fasting might even be a defense for you, or not, use it as you prefer.
        but what do you know about my illusions and what do you mean??

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Margaret: Yes; that is very sad. My own eyesight is not the greatest, but at least I can see the flowers in our garden and the butterfly resting on my arm.


  149. Margaret says:

    thinking more about the highlights in my past life, the time I met a wild fox in the hills of Spain and we stood and stared at each other for a while, until the fox quietly walked away, one night seeing the sea become fluorescent, seeing double rainbows , the butterfly on my nose, doing a double parachute jump with a free fall, looking at the huge green waves under me from the pier in Sta Monica, it dawned on me so much of all of that is visual delight.
    feeling more acutely my sadness, imagining talking about it to a friend, put me into the feeling and when I laid down on the couch crying started.
    first mature sobbing, for a long while, and then it turned into baby wailing, this time younger than ever before, until it were very brief gasps and wails, sounding like coming from a tiny newborn baby me, writing this chokes me up again a bit.
    it went on for quite long.
    wanted to share it with someone, no one else here but you all…
    the neighbours must have thought some baby was here.

    • Phil says:

      That is a such a terrible loss you have to deal with, but you seem to cope with it really well.

    • Larry says:

      Life can be capriciously cruel, and this therapy utterly unbelievable in how it leads us right to the edge of our truth and leaves us there to alone decide whether we want to step over the edge and consciously see, feel and accept the painful reality of what happened to us. You are a brave human being, Margaret.

  150. Margaret says:

    thanks Phil.
    you are a kind person.

  151. Otto Codingian says:

    i was probably not the only one to write aclu, suggesting this, but jeez does this feel good. ” A U.S. judge ordered the government on Friday to pay the costs of reuniting immigrant parents with their children after they were separated by officials at the U.S.-Mexican border.” i hate to get good feelings from children’s pain but wow…of course, jesus, what kind of animal is the trump administration to charge the parents to pay for their reunification trips? answer: not an animal, more like a rock, and that is disparaging to all rocks.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I too just read that from the judge. Not sure where Trump is leading anything, but my feeling, even thousands of miles away, that this guy is very dangerous, as well as all the other remarks that have been made about him

  152. Margaret says:

    sorry if I was a bit snappy, still in the feeling and well, on hindsight I see you were merely talking about your own ideas and experiences and it had probably little to do with me.

  153. Margaret says:

    woe, that is outrageous, that they demanded the parents to pay for the reuniting with their kids!!!
    and that while they were imprisoned and probably not able to use their money if they had any at all.
    a true shame and disgrace indeed.
    I hope the judges decision has a fast result, but well, boy, this is shocking really.

  154. Margaret says:

    thanks Larry, that touched me.

  155. Barry M says:

    Congratulations Margaret, a well deserved victory. Belgium was the better team this year.
    However I’m going to claim that Tom Brady must have flown over to Russia and deflated some of the game balls !!! How else could England have failed ?? ( It’s a North American NFL thing )
    See you at Baskin and Robbins next year.


  156. Larry says:

    For the first time in my life I own a brand new kitchen table and chairs. Always bought used before. The set that I got rid of was bought used in 1995. I’ve been sleeping on the couch a lot, so I also bought a new mattress, then while I was at it I bought a new bed to go with it, and then a new chest of drawers and a new mirror and drawers. The bedroom furniture that they replaced was 40 year old hand-me-downs from my parents.

    I feel weird to be owning this new stuff. It was delivered last Friday. It’s the best furniture I ever owned. It looks great, but I feel like it belongs on a showroom floor, not in my home. It really spices up the place and makes me want to keep the place nice and tidy. Now I don’t feel embarrassed to have people over. Which was the motive, I want to have people over. I’ve had very few people over since my wife died 9 years ago.

    There were a lot of memories and emotional baggage attached to the old furniture. It witnessed a lot of my life, the majority of it with my wife. There was a lot of letters, papers, trinkets and mementos stored and forgotten in some of the drawers. I did a fair amount of remembering and crying as I emptied the drawers and sorted through what to keep and what to discard. Some of it was her clothes. I kept whatever I still had a strong emotional attachment to and whatever had strong memory triggers. A big span of my life passed before me as I sorted through those things and read documents and letters, some that I had never seen before because they were my wife’s but I vaguely knew about the contents because she told me about them at the time. God it was so scary in the beginning wondering whether we could make it in this crazy world when we felt pretty damaged and scared. It’s amazing that we stayed together given all the internal childhood pains tearing us apart. Ultimately we stayed together because more than anything we wanted to be with each other. I don’t think I’ll ever find that again.

    Buying the new furniture, getting rid of the old, feels like an important step forward, a moving on in my life. But I hurt. My place feels more like a display home now than my home. In getting rid of the old in favour of the new, I feel like I’ve discarded my wife, abandoned her to the past and moved on, as if everything is alright now without her. Alone. I don’t like it. There was comfort in a messy, untidy home, with old furniture and old documents keeping me one foot in the past. After sorting through the stuff in the drawers, the letters and documents that I kept I put into a box that will go high up and out of the way on a shelf somewhere and probably be forgotten, so I should just throw them away, but it gives me comfort to hang on to them even if I never look at them again. It helps me feel as if some of her is still with me. Those old papers and mementos are hard evidence that those years we shared really happened.

    With the new furniture and the cleaning and tidying I’ve done, my place looks way nicer now and I like it, but it also feels empty and soulless, like nobody lives here, like my life. At this moment, part of me wants my old furniture back. I wish I could have my wife back. Part of me doesn’t want to move forward. But neither do I want to be stuck in the past, waiting for old age and finally death. As the years roll by I’m ever more conscious that my time is running out, and with it my chance to make something worthwhile out of what’s left while I still have health and energy to try, always having to battle against the aloneness and sense of worthlessness in me. I don’t even feel like I deserve new furniture. With it I almost feel like I live in a place that’s not my home. Hmmm. It reminds me of how I felt when I moved at 4 years old from my home with my Aunt and Uncle, to Mom and Dad’s new, always clean and tidy house on the farm that they still had to buy furniture for (new), and where the rooms felt big and empty to me.

    • FRED says:

      This is so very close to me. You two had LOVE. Funny thing about that. It’s eternal. If there is something I can do, please send me an email. If you respond, I will send you my email.

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: I hope you can learn to love your new furniture and not rely on the many mementos about the love of your life, Noreen, to keep the memories going. The best of them are your own memories. They will stay with you for the rest of your life. No one nor anything can ever take those from you.

      I have been relating to just that, about what I left behind in California. Of course it’s easier for me because I still have Jim with me. But I do feel the need to hang onto things, for whatever reason. More recently I have began to dispose of some of them.

      Meantime, I’m enjoying clear blue skies and sunshine, here in the land below sea level. The flatness is compensated by all the trees surrounding out little plot of land, and Jim is so adept with the garden that is looking so lovely right now. Lots of flowers and bushes and greenery. The chalet too is so lovely. The Dutch (and My Jimbo) have a great knack of making homes so cozy.


      • Larry says:

        The way you make it sound, I’m inclined to want to move there, Jack.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Larry: You are sure welcome should you feel the desire to visit. If you give me an email address I will send you a couple of videos of the place. Same for anyone else, re videos.


  157. Larry, I’m curious if you have hung your photographs in your home? Gretch

    • Larry says:

      Yes, over the last couple of years I have, Gretchen. At first I was self-conscious about them, but now I like how they add to the atmosphere of my home, how they put my stamp on it in a nice way. My Facebook friends tell me how much they look forward to seeing my photography that I share with them on Facebook. My photography hobby has given me a growing confidence in my intuition for what is visually and emotionally appealing to me and that it is often appealing to my friends and family. Instead of buying furniture primarily for consideration of function and practicality, I was surprised how in the store I felt a strong attraction also to the design and colour of the furniture that I ultimately bought, and how I confidently trusted my feeling of attraction to it and that it would complement the colours I painted the walls in my home with. I attribute that growing confidence from learning to trust my photographic intuition, which boils down to learning to know and trust my feelings. But there is a kind of yearning in me to keep the old stuff and stay messy and untidy, sort of like the feeling in the dark recess at the back of my mind to let everything go and live like a bum in a cardboard box under a bridge.

      The next big step that I have to take is to invite people over.

  158. Margaret says:

    I had the same question on my mind, glad you have your pictures on the wall.
    in a way I find it sad you feel or felt selfconscious about that, it is beauty you managed to capture, and that is simply very nice! hope you can enjoy it more and be proud of it as well…

    I still have a hard time worrying about my little cat, who needs to be treated 4 times a day.
    he is scared about it and specially in the morning I feel terribly tense and anxious before finally the two morning treatments are given.
    luckily I found ways by now to do so without scaring or hurting him too much, like his syrup on his front legs instead of in his mouth, which was a huge struggle, as then he licks his paws and also gets the medicine in, and the vet said that is fine.
    and for the cream on his sore eye I have some soft cotton and put a lot of cream on it and then gently put that on his eye which he usually allows quite well.
    but the hardest part is catching him, as he knows that is coming up, especially in the morning, and hides etc.
    then once I have him, after a lot of patience, he sometimes shivers in fear.
    I think it is improving slowly as he notices more and more I do not hurt him and it alleviates the soreness.
    a lady came by for grocery shopping and I was talking with her about my concerns about my kitty cat, and at some point she replied ‘sure, they are all you have’, and that was so spot on it made me choke up and feel my fear and sadness about the idea of losing him.
    once the medication of the morning is given I can finally relax a bit and the cats as well, and it feels great when the little one approaches me for some petting and shows he still loves me and trusts me.
    that is the hard part, having to enforce something on my sweet cat which scares him, but well, the bond of trust seems strong enough to accept the unpleasant treatment.
    he slowly starts eating a bit more, luckily, and drinks water at the tap.
    yeah, he does not like the bowls of water to drink from, his brother probably put his feet in them too often in the past, smiley.
    I am surprised at the level of distress, concern, tenderness and worry an illness of this little fellow already causes, they really get under your skin so easily, which of course is great but also hurts when trouble threatens.
    if all goes well we will even be closer, I am certain, but until then it is a roller coaster of stress and less stress this week, off and on.

    he is now dozing on top of the couch instead of under it, another step in the right direction!

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, I hope your kitty gets better. I worry so when my pets get sick too; they rely on us and are so vulnerable. I think that vulnerability is what brings out the fear in me when the little things are ill. It feels like a dread feeling, that doesn’t seem to come with any other time or event to evoke this feeling. These are our babies. If you had several kitties I’m thinking you would feel the same about each one, beings they depend on us to help and need us. Wonder if other pet caregivers feel this too.

    • Larry says:

      Sounds like he has a good mother.

  159. Phil says:

    I’ve had some big feelings come out tonight. I’m alone here much more now, which is triggering, and I’ve had plenty of time to let the feelings. come out. Some about not wanting my mother to leave me, and about needing her.
    Others about guilt. I have the thing about my brother, and not following through for him and tonight I was realizing how it’s similar with my mother. I didn’t want to go and visit her. I hardly would express that to my father or grandmother, but I’m sure they could see that. I would go without resistance but it certainly would never be my idea for a visit. Even the ride over there was terrible in anticipation of seeing her.
    When arriving to the nursing home, I wouldn’t approach my mother, nor would I say anything, that I remember. I was more or less frozen there. She was in very bad shape physically and emotionally, and that had started a long time before while she was still living at home.
    Tonight I was feeling a lot of guilt about that, what she went through, and I didn’t help. I cried deeply and said I was sorry. Also with her in mind, on how I treated my brother in his last years.
    The same for my grandmother; I guess because she suffered a lot too and I didn’t treat her right, or appreciate her.

    • Sylvia says:

      It must have been very hard for you at that young age. It makes sense that present guilt could resonate to earlier times. Kids, though, are receptacles for guilt, when nothing really is their fault. You really are getting into big feelings, good for you.

      • Sylvia says:

        I’m thinking you did and felt the way you did as a boy in order to survive your mom being so sick and her being distant from the family, emotionally and geographically.

        • Phil says:

          This way of not relating to my mother started while she was still living at home, although I don’t remember well the progression. I think it’s because her behavior, whether caused by illness or not, hurt me badly. I actually remember thinking at a young age, while she was still with us, that I would treat her the same way she treats me. Meaning, ignore her, not speak to her etc. That was clearly a very poor strategy, but I was very badly hurt, and furious.

  160. Margaret says:

    I was very moved by reading your comments.

    also yours touched me, Sylvia, and yours, Larry, thanks.
    the kitty is gradually getting better, but not quite yet, still worried…

  161. Margaret says:

    yesterday was decided, a bit unexpectedly, or rather short notice, the sailing man from the dating site would come visit me for lunch to meet for the first time, as we plan to go sailing soon.
    he prefers a third hand on board so my best girlfriend who has had a sailing boat will join us so they can also meet, as she would be the extra helping hand when we go sailing.

    I started cooking rightaway yesterday, and all is prepared now, and it is very hard not to get nervous.
    I keep telling myself I do not need to do anything to please, do not want to do so really, just want to be myself.
    one relaxing thing is to just focus on the sailing trip, as the word ‘relation’ has never even entered our conversations so far, despite having met on a dating site.
    we might go sailing for two days, or one, depending mostly of whether we can all fit it in in our agendas.
    he had proposed to get together for coffee or lunch to get acquainted and well, I suggested to meet here at my place, as it feels most relaxed for me, despite of the being a good host thing.
    it also feels nice I can show most who I am here, with many of the decorations made by me , statues, paintings, drawings, those from when I still had good eyesight, the little statues from after losing it.
    my girlfriend will be here the first hour or so, as she has a dentist appointment.
    I do not count much on getting into a steady relation with this guy, although he sounds nice and interesting, but he travels a lot with his sailing yacht.
    and my two cats come first, can’t leave them alone for months of course.
    but well, the sailing is already a very nice plan, and the rest is to be seen yet.
    in a way that feels relaxing too, ha, relatively so, anyway.
    to be continued…

  162. Margaret says:

    ok, the good news is the lunch was pleasant with the three of us, and we set a date to go sailing together.
    the less good news is he got up and left at the same moment my girlfriend had to leave, and shook my hand instead of giving me a kiss on the cheek like when he arrived.
    it did not feel like romance in the air in other words, litttle sigh…
    but well, hey, it is what it is and it ain’t what it ain’t as the song goes.
    a nice day of sailing ahead, so no complaints.
    the optimistic part of me had already searched before his arrival where I kept the one vase I have, in case he had brought some flowers…
    one may dream, no?
    it is possible he is very shy of course, but well, I don’t think that is what goes on.
    still, one can’t have it all, sailing is a nice result after all….
    only one day instead of two is ok as well as I won’t have to get cat sitter in that case.
    I haven’t even been able to show him around, he has only seen the kitchen, ha, it kind of makes me smile in hindsight…

  163. Otto Codingian says:

    still not sure why these californian skits make me cry. especially the short spanish-style music and pouring wine. a leisurely life in the sun by the beach, where i grew up with typical white kid privileges and lots of wine and dope. then life as an adult was a little bit harder. The Californians: Replacing Rosa – SNL. i just leafed through 8 of the 75 pages of available cats at the east valley shelter, hoping to see if the 2 black and white feral cats had finally been caught. not sure why i bothered since i would not have enough money to get them out, and they would just get picked up again because of some unknown ahole neighbor calling the pound. it is always depressing to view all these animals, or to go to the pound itself.

  164. Margaret says:

    my cat who had a bad eye infection is getting better every day.
    he also seems to know very well the treatments are helping him, he has become even more affectionate than before.
    now the treatments are minor and do not hurt him at all, a soft piece of cotton with some cream on his eye for a few seconds once a day, which does not hurt at all, he even seems to like it.
    but already before when his eye was still pretty sore, he would come up to me a little while after being treated to give me a little bump with his head to get some petting, his cat way to say thanks and I love you.
    very endearing and I am so happy he is eating well and more active again.
    his brother has been very gentle with him all the time, sweet to witness.
    love them so much.

  165. Phil says:

    I’m so glad that cat is getting better. It is really hard when pets get sick since they can’t complain, and don’t usually like the treatments, You do a great job taking care of them.


  166. Margaret says:

    thanks Phil,
    yes, I feel I am doing a pretty good job in trying to give a good treatment and doing so in as gentle a way as possible.
    tried chamomile first but that clearly was not good enough in this case to clean the eye.
    cat infections can strike fast and hard and this might have saved him as he was quickly losing weight and had a very high fever after only one night of getting ill.
    it is great to watch him stretching against the furniture again to sharpen his claws, smiley…

  167. Otto Codingian says:

    good to hear, margaret. anyway since we got cats again, i am always getting cat hair in MY eyes and rubbing my itchy eyes a lot.

  168. Jo says:

    Hi everyone, I want to recommend a book called “Eleanor Oliphant is completely fine” – one that I found hard to get started, as I don’t read so much in the summer. I forced myself to keep reading, as someone lent me the book and wanted to know what I thought. Also, I felt obligated to get on with it and return it though there was no pressure at all!
    I found it compelling reading…’Funny, touching and unpredictable’ as Jojo Moyes (a favourite author of mine) wrote about it. All true.
    Another recommendation is “Patrick Melrose” ..I’ve just watched the mini tv series on dvd, almost back to back it was so riveting. It’s probably on Netflix.
    Both these items’ stories gave me plenty to identify and empathise with.

    • Sylvia says:

      Jo, thank you for the info on the book and on the Cumberbatch mini series. Sounds like a different kind of character not usually portrayed on the screen from what samples are shown. I will want to see that.

      • Jo says:

        You’re welcome Sylvia..Apart from the theme, and Cumberbatch’s superlative acting the photography is stunning..

  169. Margaret says:

    Otto, that is nice, thanks, also from the cat. I am just wondering whether he needs to be checked by the vet to be sure as the inner part of his eye, the corner, still feels a bit swollen.
    I will wait and see first how it evolves.
    and yes, I read a cat has 40 million hairs, 10 milllion on his belly, 5 million on his back, and 25 million on your furniture and clothes, well, and in your eyes.
    I brush them, another brush for bed, couch and carpets, and vacuum cleaning and mopping more than I would do without cats. but they are worth it smiley.
    caressing them makes my blood pressure go down noticeably and makes me smile and my heart warm up.

  170. Margaret says:

    I am starting to feel lonely and a bit gloomy.
    people on holiday, some activities not on in the summer, and of course the feeling of disappointment about my ‘date’ the sailor not showing any interest in me and my life really.
    which of course triggers the old feeling of being of no interest or appeal whatsoever, with as an extra the disability on top of it all, possibly turning people , or him, off…
    certainly rationally I know this is not too bad and after all we will go sailing if nothing changes, but the fact remains after being hopeful and optimistic there is a bit of a relapse now to the opposite side of the scale.
    nothing too bad luckily, just a bit left to the middle, not at the far end of the down side…
    I did plan a checkup on tuesday for my cat, to make sure he will be well recovered. hopefully that is.
    the blog is very silent and other mails also seem to be less than usual, and i have not felt like studying all week…
    well, just felt like sharing this a bit, here, as i have noone to call either these days, all on holidays or busy.
    tried mom but she was not in her room either, which is good, I like it she has better stuff to do there than be by herself in her (nice) room.
    she is doing well, it is possible to have pleasant conversations with her, which of course she forgets right away, but as long as we are in the flow of the conversation she often amazes me with the things she says , she is supportive and goes for the sunny side of life mostly.
    she also insists on us doing what we want to do, and that she is ok, and we should not worry, which is sweet of her and very caring of course.
    but I do like to visit her really, just lately the past weeks it has not been possible to visit her a few times for reasons out of my control.
    but as iI say, when I call her she is very reassuring and warm, I love her so much, and feel sad at the idea of losing her some day.

    • Larry says:

      I’m touched by how alone you are, Margaret.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, it is nice to hear your mom is doing well. And I’m glad that your kitty is on the mend. I’ve been doctoring my dog for an intestinal inflammation–poor little guy was not himself but is doing better.
      Don’t things trigger us–you can use your disappointment with your sailor friend as a feeling anyways–that’s what I do with those kinds of feelings, waste not want not–most bad feelings harken back to the old ones, don’t they. ‘Poof’ at least now they are over in a jiffy and they don’t linger on.
      Onward and upward. Take it easy.

  171. Otto Codingian says:

    How am I, asks the wife. I have no idea. We are going to see the grandkids for the little boy’s birthday tonight. As I explained in group last night, I do not feel comfortable around people, even my own kids. I feel very uncomfortable around my son’s wife since she does not like me and Z too much. Today I might be feeling a backlash (not sure of a good word for this) from a feeling I had last night in group. Feeling about being left alone a lot at ages 6 through 10 approximately. A backlash, meaning that I don’t feel relief because I only cried a little bit so the bad feeling might now be amplified and lingering. I do not go to sessions or group on a regular basis, and I don’t have friends or a buddy in the primal community, and I don’t think my wife is supportive very much of primal. So I deal with my feelings alone, which means I cram them back down inside by over-eating and working. Thus, those feelings of being alone for many hours a day at a tender age will never go away. My “ALONE TIME” consisted of me being in our empty living room after school, with only a box of comic books and a white ceramic elephant on top of the tv as one sign of life, and the Bozo tv show as another sign of life, and an occasional check-in by my aunt who lived next door in the hotel she managed as another small smidgen of life. I guess as I write this I am seeing a larger, more vivid realization of how actually horrendous and damaging those hours of being ALONE were for me. i do appreciate that someone else speaking last night triggered this feeling for me. I kept getting this image in my mind about that white elephant. The trigger was that I would be alone, and at some point my grandmother would be home from work, and I WOULD STILL BE ALONE. I mean I dreaded her coming home. She would come home and cook and clean and iron and other things NOT INVOLVIJNG ME. I had a brother but I am not recalling how he fit into this scenario. He was usually with my uncle next door at the hotel after school and would come home at some point. Sometimes he would play loudly with me at night in our bedroom, keeping my grandmother awake, so the solution for that was to have me to change bedrooms with my grandmother so she went to the big bedroom with my brother and I moved into my grandmother’s small bedroom ALONE. This was the small bedroom over the tiny basement space, a place that my brother tormented me about by saying that black widow spiders lived there. So I cowered nightly with my blanket covering my head completely, hot and afraid that black widow spiders were going to come for me. So, yes Gretchen, I WAS terrified, I forgot about this part of the equation. I was ALONE AND AFRAID. I think my brother was always causing trouble for my poor grandmother, getting in trouble at school, so that she eventually stupidly decided to move away from my dear aunt and uncle, and then I was even MORE ALONE. I guess she thought my uncle was a bad influence. I am not feeling anything as I write this, as I said, I am not in a primal house and I really can’t focus on myself because we are going to see the grandkids shortly. I am afraid of men and I am afraid of women. I hate hearing strange men’s voices. My mom left me at age 10 months so that she could go spend months in an iron lung and eventually die. At that time, I got left with a different aunt and uncle (my dead father’s sister and her mean-at-times husband) and I was ALONE in a bassinette a lot for months and at some point I probably stopped crying and stopped expecting to see my mommy again. Then the next 4 years are a blank until the afore-mentioned years of being ALONE with a white elephant. There was school, there was my good aunt and uncle, there was the white elephant and Bozo, there was the Boy’s club that my brother and I walked to in the summer, there was maybe a little life at Sunday School, so I did not become a total psycho. I was just inoculated with a life-long depression that was never to be cured. I got lucky last night. I was able to slide right into that feeling, opening my mouth to say these things; I usually am too terrified to open my mouth in group, but this time the stars cooperated and I beat everyone else to the sharing. Unfucking believable.

  172. Margaret says:

    thanks Jo, always nice to get a good tip for a book.

  173. Margaret says:

    yeah, sounds like you can relate…
    still sometimes the only option is to try and make one’s own life as good as possible I guess.
    and in the meantime remain open for possiblle opportunities.
    I just got a mail from my long ago tango dance teacher who has been travelling for months, and when he is here usually gets together with me for a drink and chat.
    so he asked me if I felt like one and I hesitated, as I did not feel like being on a terrace in the midst of a noisy crowd, trying to follow his conversation as he does not articulate well, and also on top of that the feeling of well, this does not lead to romance anyway, and all my sadness of the moment, not acute but lingering and present…
    but then I thought let’s make it more the way I prefer, so I invited him to have a drink at my place on the trace, with some snacks, early evening, told him I did not feel like the crowd and the noise.
    and he accepted, so it will be nicer and easier to catch up this way.
    somehow the thought even crossed my mind he might be in for well, sort of a one night stand, as in the past there was some occasional flirting, but immediately I realized myself I don’t, or would nnot feel like it, I neeed someone who is really into me emotionally and otherwise.
    even if this would be my last opportunity maybe, ha, I rather stick to what I really want and won’t go for some kind of substitute.
    this is just some quiet and somewhat empty episode, and times keep changing so well, I feel like being true to myself and only going for what I feel I deserve. it feels like a way to respect myself and that feels good, even while the sadness remains, and the relative loneliness…
    it will also keep our conversation pure and honest, as he is also in a difficult span of his life, after a relapse of spread out cancer probably, for which he probably does not want another operation.
    some sadness on both sides will probably be the most natural thing, and some humor to alleviate things, and some cava , Spanish bubbles, to go with the flow smoothly, smiley.
    I have that bottle in the fridge for long enough by now anyway.

    • FRED says:

      This is only my opinion but I think you made a wise decision to keep it platonic, especially given his history of cancer. I would recommend to ANYONE, any age to marry for LOVE.

      • Fred: Sadly, most of have little or no experience of “love”, so we go for what we assume is love and tend to pick someone we find attractive … then hope the rest follows on. Least-ways that’s what happened with me. It took several attempts living with them, to discover it wasn’t what I really wanted, and even when I settled for one; it’s far from perfect.

        I wonder if all those fairy stories about “living happily ever after”, aren’t to blame for a lot of the myths we accumulate?????


        • FRED says:

          July 23, 2018

          I don’t disagree with anything you said. The fairy tales, if anything, are damaging but I like the lines from the Paul Stookey song from 1971 “The Wedding Song”, written by David Bowie:

          • Well then what’s to be the reason for becoming man and wife? (I would ad of course partners as long as there is love).
          • Is it love that brings you here or love that gives you life?
          • For if loving is the answer then who’s the giving for?
          • Do you believe in something that you’ve never seen before?
          • Oh there’s love, oh there’s love.

          Thank God, I know this firsthand. There MUST be love for if there weren’t I wouldn’t grieve so.

          I would not have been carrying on like this, primal after primal after primal, bawling my eyes out into tear-soaked pillows, since my wife went on hospice on 11/09/2017, and even more so after she died 11/22/2017, the day before Thanksgiving and the day before her birthday.

          Countless times, 555 primals later (2 today, Monday, alone), I can attest, there is love. Sometimes I almost wish there hadn’t been such love.

          I of course realize that half or more of this is “old feelings”, love for my parents who didn’t “do a perfect job”. For this, sometimes, I actually love them more for making an extra effort, stretching.

          And, yea, I was far from a perfect son.

          Both parents at least wanted a baby and child (two, including my younger sister born just 11 month, 1 week after I).

          I loved my dad beyond description and I’ve taken that to the BANK–I’ve had TRUE primals over that.

          I loved mom DEARLY!!!!–she was so beautiful as a younger woman.

          NO WORDS for either of them but I’ll try: funny, caring, sincere, righteous.

          It could not be otherwise, or I would not hurt so much.

          Was it not Janov who said that we are crying (primaling)–for love?

          At the heart of man it is love. We are a truly broken-hearted race on this planet.

          Yes, I am SO lucky, yet damned to have been born as an utterly vulnerable complex biologic being with “endless” needs, wide open and into a world where the predominant thought patterns are quite dense and demand thought and behavior which embrace massive limitations on the human spirit and conformity to an Unreality.

          But, alas, it could not be any other way, really but I’m not powerless, not powerless to EXPERIENCE and thereby integrate and transmute.

  174. Margaret says:

    glad to hear your little dog is getting better. that must be a relief for both of you….
    the good thing about this sailor guy and his lack of genuine interest in who I am, is that this time I don’t struggle, just look at what is there and what is not there and feel the sadness about feeling disappointed.
    but accepting it the way it is or seems to be enables me to move on and think ‘next!…’, smiley.
    and it still remains almost too good to be true a nice sailing trip with him and two of my best friends is coming up, on his big yacht, in just less than two weeks. part of me keeps in mind he might cancel it still, but well, at least I did create the opportunity somehow.

    do you have romance or dreams of romance going on Sylvia? no need to answer if this is too personal to discuss here of course, just interested and curious.

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret, that is a good question about romance. Probably it is more in the dream stage than the practical right now. As I have more memories of what was I guess that there is always that inkling of what could be in the future. A friend once told me the poet Byron’s line: ‘woman loves her first lover, all others that come after she loves in love, which fits her like an easy glove.’ Or something like that. So yes, you always know that loving feeling is something special that you want again. But it is a meeting of the mind too, isn’t it. So many things need to line up for a relationship. But then it’s nice just to have a nice time, even with a group of people you feel comfortable being around.

  175. Otto Codingian says:

    Oh boy, am i having leakage of feelings from friday group? feeling disappoiinted that i stayed home alone all day, watching tv, doing the wife’s many many dirty dishes? Alone all day while my wife was at the e.r. tending to a friend of hers? pissed at wife after hearing in group about someone else’s better marriage, to rub into my face, even though i really make no effort to make my marriage any better? yes disappointed like when my grandma would come home from work and ignore me. damn the leakage. i go walk dog.

  176. Margaret says:

    Jo, I already sent a mail to my library to ask them about the audio version…
    that is so true, so many things have to line up for a good relationship.
    but Fred, if love would blossom with someone a history of cancer would be the least thing to stop me from enjoying the time of the present with that person.
    in the case of my dance teacher it is his character flaws and more so the fact I do not feel he is in love with me that stops me.

  177. Margaret says:

    hi Jo,
    I just got news from my library that they found the book in a Dutch library on audio and they will send it over, in a few weeks it should arrive here!

  178. Jo says:

    Margaret..I’m glad! Hope you enjoy!

  179. Margaret says:

    my little cat Pluche has been controlled and is found entirely cured, hurray!
    the vet was very nice, funny and charming and turned out to be the senior partner who knows and remembers me from 30 years ago, wow, when I could still see well and was still married.
    talked with him as well about whether to vaccine my cats or not, and we decided on only two vaccines for the common diseases that can be spread by bringing them home on shoes for example.
    but not the lot of vaccines for cats who get in contact with other cats. and I can leave two years of interval so that feels ok.
    my little cat now tends to follow me for cuddles much more than before, he seems really to know I helped him to get rid of his very sore eye and dangerously high fever.
    such a relief, which was celebrated today by some fresh fish for my two furry buddies.
    and the next time I will ask for that same vet, he seemed to like me very much and that was nice, unexpected and nice.

  180. Margaret says:

    went to visit mom today.
    she cried for a moment upon seeing us, probably she had noticed despite her short term memory disfunction, that it had been 10 days since the last visit, due to exceptional circumstances which from now on hopefully will not occur again. saturday is now my next visit already, with my brother.
    but she brightened up right after her brief cry, I had hugged her all along, and a bit later she was so funny.
    we were talking about ages, and at some point I said to her ‘ well, you are not a 17 year old flower anymore are you?’
    she stood still for a second, hummed and replied’ but I am still a flower!’
    so endearing, funny and well, ‘wise’!
    she still appreciates all beauty of nature, marvels at trees and flowers and birds and even at small things she finds on the ground, or dead leafs, but she is right in seeing all that beauty, and I am so happy she is still my inspiration in so many ways!

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, that sounds like such a nice visit with your mom. She sounded wise thoughtful and feeling. It must have done wonders for both of you.
      I recall Art saying in his writings he would much rather be in the company of someone who had Alzheimer’s, they being more forthright and honest and close to their feelings, than to converse with an intellectual spinning their beliefs.

  181. Otto Codingian says:

    My usual bad feelings/depression. Days getting shorter, summer’s almost gone. Have not been to the beach yet this year. Did not have a tomato plant this year. Have not had a vacation in over 10 years and that last one was very minor. Feel alone. I am not torn from my mom like immigrant kids are. There is nothing I can do about those kids. 900 will not be reunited due to government not giving a shit. There are 19 million tons of chicken usually sold to south Africa that is not happening because of trump tariffs. Those chickens in tight shoebox cages will suffer even more. Their welfare is not even a discussion by the big boys.nothing I can do about it. I want to go down to long beach since I grew up there and went to the beach often when I was young, but it seems like such an impossibility. Many bad memories there, overshadowing the good ones. The a/c contractors at work took away our portable a/c today saying we were not using it, although it was blasting cold air when they turned it off. We all had a good laugh about t that. Very warm in l.a. this year, maybe global warming will catch up to the republicans at last. Not before all the penguins and polar bears are gone. My wife says she feels disconnected from me this week. I said it was hot and I was tired, but really, when ARE we connected? We went to grandkid’s birthday last weekend at a Mexican restaurant in San Pedro. Surprise the other in-laws came too, making me feel uncomfortable. They all drank and me and wife don’t, I am certain they think we are assholes but whatever. My son’s wife’s stepdad rested his arm on the shoulder of my son’s wife’s mom and fingered his bottle of beer and looked evil to me. my grandson had nothing to do with me; he usually comes over and gets physical the few times we have visited him over the past 4 years. My son ‘s wife’s mom has a millionaire sister, whose money has trickled down to them. The mom has a vacation home and my son and his wife mysteriously have a new car, and I can’t even afford to give my son $40 every now and then because my wife has serious expensive dental problems and does not make much money either.not to mention the vet bills. My son, his wife, the evil stepdad and the mom and the grandkids are all going to palm springs this week for a pool party. I think my son felt embarrassed to tell me this because he asked if I could get off work to go, but not in a genuine manner. My son always drinks now, had a big margarita at the restaurant. Always seems happy but I know we depressed the shit out of him as a child. Let me see, anything good in my life? Group last Friday was good, but way too infrequent. I am old and fat and gaining weight and high blood sugar according to my doctor. The dietician is trying to get me to diet and exercise, and I try, but work is so irritating and hectic that I end up eating junk food sometimes. Or more than sometimes. All the bodily things that happen to old people seem to be increasing. I can barely see. The mockingbirds with their beautiful singing have disappeared. The stray cats, most of them also seem to have disappeared. The white cat is a joy who likes to nurse on my shirt when I pet him. The black cat who is touchy about being petted except on her head usually, she likes to be petted and sleeps near my head at night. The big tree in the back yard will fall down some day and kill someone. As barry said, my only joy is food, and that is not much joy and it is killing me. I am just writing to say this stuff for myself. My son in ohio has had terrible back pain since he moved there and there is nothing I can do about it. i have nothing to do with him at all. I have memories of years gone by all the time, usually not pleasant. Hmnnnnmnmnmn…..

    • FRED says:

      By the way, it was nice meeting you. Men are definitely in the MINORITY at the P.I.! Someone I’m sure, could post about THAT! I avoid “worrying” about animals in cage in the sense that I stopped eating meat, including chicken, beef, port, lamb, seafood, except occasionally I would eat fish with my wife; but now I don’t think I will eat meat anymore at all. My motto is “If you can’t kill it, don’t eat it”. I’m a big PeTA guy and other animal rights charities. As far as actions of the government, I noted that Trump Admin followed same policy as Obama’s. Thank God children are reunited.

      But on a macro level, “How can I worry too much about all these others?” I got my own pain, believe you me. One of these days, let’s meet up, amigo. We don’t live far from each other. There is a good vegan (I’m not vegan) Mexican restaurant on Melrose in West Hollywood, just east of Doheny. Dinner is on me!

      Have a truly blessed day in God’s universe.

      • Phil says:

        What has you thinking men are a minority at the PI? Actually I think the reverse is true. More men are doing primal therapy anywhere I’ve ever seen. I think it’s because, in general, it’s not OK for boys to cry. I have certainly been catching up with that now; I think I’m world class in that area.


  182. Actually we have more men then women . I think that particular group just happened to have fewer men. In any case it was nice that you were there Fred. Gretchen

    • FRED says:

      That is actually quite interesting. If groups reflected patients and patients reflected the general population within they age range of, say 25 – 80, it would definitely skewer to many more women, and even more so the older the population is, say 50-plus. I’m positive there are many valid explanations such as morality rates, younger women more involved in parenting, and of course, the ethic in this society that “men don’t cry”.

      • Phil says:

        What’s also interesting is that, in general, women are more likely to get mental health help than men, as it says in this article.
        “Basically, psychotherapy was created by men to treat women.”
        Primal is past it’s peak of popularity and that might explain why the patient population seems on the old side.

        • FRED says:

          I think there is some truth to what you say. There does seem to be a plateau but I can’t get over what Arthur Janov discovered. I prefer to think of him as a pioneer. He was, of course, flawed. I need not go into this, but to paraphrase Ayn Rand, “It is up to us the living. We can go “further” into the human psyche. As I have stated before, truly “we’ve just begun”. We CAN do this. We should not put up so many impediments.

          • Phil says:

            I would like to go further into my own psyche, and I think I’m making progress.
            It’s the final frontier, I would say, not outer space, and we can all be pioneers.
            But mostly people aren’t up to making that trip. I think. Or they don’t feel a need
            to do it, or aren’t aware it can be done.


  183. Phil says:

    yesterday my brother and I went to visit our mom.
    she started crying the moment we arrived, saying ‘i have been waiting for so long!…’
    it was heartbreaking but luckily she shifted soon into showing us how glad she was to see us.
    then we had a good time, went for a walk in the woods and she sang and pointed to all kind of things she loved, trees, birds, flowers, little stuff on the ground, and i smiled and told her how it was the love for the beauty of nature and all living things she had shared with us and taught us all our lives, and passed it on.
    that made her sing an old funny song about little animals, in the song actually the ones one can see when very drunk, and we were amazed at how she knows all the words and sings them with a lot of expression, very funny.
    but then at the time we left she insisted on accompanying us to the door which of course is a door with a lock code, where she has to stay on one side and we go the other.
    usually I can manage to take care of the situation by suggesting her to go feed the cat on the other side of the place, where she can go out into a little garden and can indeed often find the cat.
    but now she started crying again telling my brother how she would miss him, and that too was heartbreaking, even while I managed to use the cat trick right after. I had also told her I would come back two days later and a nurse who came by had also told her we would always keep coming back.
    but of course when the door shut and we walked away we felt the pain of having to leave her in that situation, ‘locked up’ so to say.
    usually I can deal with it knowing she will soon focus on whatever happens in the moment, but this time i noticed my brother seemed to be crying, although he tried to hide it.
    I remained silent, giving him the space, just giving his arm a little squeeze while we walked to the car.
    it affects me much more that he cried for some reason, maybe because he does not share his feelings easily.
    mom expresses them loud and clear and that feels to me like she is ‘stronger’ and more able to cope and allow consolation and comforting.
    with my brother I try to find the middle way between respecting his wish for privacy and giving him support.
    but all day the sadness lingers on, I have been able to cry a bit but well, there is so much to be sad or scared about that it cannot entirely go away of course.
    and it was his birthday too…
    I gave him an envelope with some money, added some ‘from mom’, and added two cat cookies, which puzzled him first, but then he put two and two together, I had written on the envelope happy birthday from me, mom and the cats,and he started laughing, which warms my heart.
    I laughed too and told him the cats had let me know in case he did not like the cookies he could give them back to them.
    I liked it he found it funny, I easily fear to be disapproved by him, but I see more and more of his caring and loving and vulnerable side.
    our family is a mixture of a lot of pain and some genuine pleasure and care…

    • Phil says:

      Sorry, the last post was from Margaret. I wish that WordPress had an editing function, I’d be using that very often.
      Margaret, that’s good your brother could cry about that. It sounds like a very difficult situation walking away from your mother when she’s saying those things.

    • Margaret says:

      that was me, smiley, Margaret

  184. Margaret says:

    yes, it is, and it must be much more difficult for my brother as he lives further and works so he can only come by every other week, and I go three times in two weeks.
    so I see better how despite the difficult moments she also has times she happily says goodbye.
    sometimes when me and my brother leave she also tells him not to worry about her, but well, yes, it is painful other times like yesterday.
    my brother did shed a few tears in silence and blew his nose but he mostly tries to deal with it on his own.
    just occasionally he will talk a bit about how sorry he feels for her and for her loss of capacities.
    but he finds comfort in the fact she is well looked after there and the caretakers are kind.
    and mom is resilient, she always goes for the bright side while at the same time she is able to show her feelings.
    but also she will pretend to be fine while she knows the situation is not ideal.
    i feel very sorry for the moments she is alone in her room and cannot remember what has been happening and what is coming up, that must be very difficult and frightening.
    but overall there are many blessings to count, and many happy moments and she still loves to live.
    I love her dearly and she is inspiring.
    can’t even think of when she will be gone, too painful, she will leave such an empty spot in my world, even while she will always remain well settled in my heart.

  185. Margaret says:

    I just texted my brother and mentioned mom still was not in her room when I tried to call her, evening here, so she must be having a good time socially.
    it felt nice my brother replied she always finds ways to cope.
    I replied she is ‘buoyant’, and that I admire her.
    nice these words have found their way to be spoken between us.
    will try calling mom again soon, I like to give her a nice feeling before she goes to bed. not every day, but most days, when I have the time and feel like it.

    • Sylvia says:

      Margaret, I was touched by your description of your brother’s feelings at leaving your mom. My eyes welled up too.
      I care so much about my bro too. We joke a lot over the phone and tease beings we grew up always joking (probably from pain of having a strict mom.)
      I try not to let the phone hang up without saying, “we love you,” ‘we’ meaning me and the cats and dog. The other week, I did not let him leave without a hug, even though we live a few miles apart and see each other about once a month. He was the sensitive one of the family and I am learning to be, and it feels natural now.

  186. Margaret says:

    dear Sylvia,
    thanks for your reply.
    it makes me reflect even more on my own brother, being more sensitive and vulnerable than I regarded him in the past.
    it might have to do with him hiding his emotions often, and not wanting to talk about them mostly, but of course that does not mean they are not there and that he does not feel them.
    I catch myself wanting to make my family, and often others, feel happy.
    I feel very protective about my brother and mom, while especially with him I have felt scared to be disapproved of.
    I used to have bad nightmares about him years ago but we have come such a long way and what I feel mostly now is his very caring side.
    I remember him hugging me and becoming teary and telling me he is so sorry about the loss of my eyesight, it makes me teary mentioning this.
    that happened several years ago when he was about to leave after a visit.
    those moments of saying goodbye seem easier to express sensitive emotions and love.
    as in the past I also regarded him as mostly stern, it is always liberating to make him laugh, or hear him laugh at something funny.
    I have been noticing lately more and more how I tend to talk too much or joke or tell ‘funny’ stories, and I am trying to be more real in this way, look first at why that impulse occurs and at what is painful or what I fear.
    the word emptiness is never far away, defenses are grown in and keep us apart if we remain in the old patterns.
    but my trust in my brother has grown immensely and my love of him has deepened so much over the last years of taking care of our mom.
    so sad him and me never had kids, now I am sure we both feel we miss kids and grand kids of our own.
    sad and such a wast of all that love.

    • Sylvia says:

      That is nice, Margaret, that you have a closer relationship with your brother. I’m sure because taking care of our mom it brought my bro and I closer too. I really appreciated all he did to help. It’s funny you said about joking and talking and looking at the impulse for it. When last he and I were doing some errands in town, I noticed I was my usual gabby self in the car, and then I stopped and started asking more questions about what was going on with him and his family. He has stepchildren and grandchildren. I felt a shift from conversations before, like I needn’t impress him. I guess we all here are gradually changing. I think the little feelings that I try to give into here and there on a weekly basis, must have let me get a little stronger and less needful to impress. Anyway, little improvements are nice.

  187. Otto Codingian says:

    It came to me that war is so inherently not something that is going to ever go away (unless we ALL die in the final war) that they had to come up with rules on how it was to be run. that is, i see some german troops surrendering, and they are hoping that the rule of surrender holds– that you don’t get killed if you surrender. anyway, kind of sad clip, kind of positive or hopeful feeling; survived peoples. Liberation of Munich April 30 1945

  188. Otto Codingian says:

    of course, the music makes me weepy….

  189. Margaret says:

    what you mentioned about wanting to impress made some pieces of my own puzzle fall into place.
    for me the need to be entertaining, ‘of interest’ exists to fill that horrible feeling of the empty gap, the nothing being there…
    I had an intense dream htis night, about being in a group setting.
    I had a feeling on the rise and tried to talk, but repeatedly I got interrupted or did not get the time to come to my point.
    in the end I got very angry at a lady for coming up with a whole unrelated story while I had been trying to tell what was on my mind. I got very angry at her and told her off for being so ‘damned theatrical’, and added it irritated me as I felt I needed attention so badly.
    someone else interfered again, and it triggered me even more, I ended up shouting shut up, shut the f.. up!!
    then the group fell silent at last, but to my dismay I forgot to which point I had been trying to come which felt very awkward as finally I did have the stage and seemingly had nothing to say.
    after a while I did remember what the feeling was I wanted to express, don’t even remember now whether it stil was in the dream or after waking up.
    the very depressing feeling was, and is, ‘I am not worth being listened to, I am of no interest whatsoever to anyone’.
    the truely bad thing about this feeling is it seems to have become my own opinion about myself, which makes me very sad and hopeless.
    who would want me if I don’t ‘want’ myself, all my ‘joking’ and story telling and ‘entertaining’ only to cover up that terrible emptiness of knowing nothing will come my way unless I force myself into the picture so to say.
    that is so sad.
    I am good in listening to people, while I crave to be really listened to, to get some genuine interest .
    thus, the feeling: ‘I am not worth it’…
    reminds me of one time in group I had a big unexpected one while saying ‘I don’t deserve the attention’, or trying to say it as I only got to ‘I don’t deseeeeeeee!…..
    what remains if this feeling lingers?
    being gentle to others, stopping the struggle and see what remains.
    I had to think of Barry, how much I love him, while he merely listens and supports, he does not need to be entertaining to be likable.
    so maybe I can also survive and some still might like me, boy, I can feel a huge pool of sadness right under the surface, but have to get ready for a girlfriend’s visit, she canceled our upcoming sailing trip and is going to explain why I suppose…

  190. Margaret says:

    I met with my girlfriend for lunch.
    on the way she asked me how I was doing, and I told her about my ‘dip’ this week, and then about the dream, and about the feeling of needing but not being worth of attention. when I said I feel I am not of any interest to anybody tears broke through, a clear sign I was right on the feeling. it was ok with her, and ok with me to tear up on the street, as I knew it was a brief thing of just allowing myself to get in touch with the feeling, and i felt safe with her.
    I told her how sad it felt to have interiorized that feeling to the point of not considering myself anymore worth of attention.
    it felt like a big relief to have expressed myself also in that way, apart from on here, and to have been heard and understood.
    she told me I mattered a lot to her.
    then a bit later we got onto the sailing issue, and this time she told me straightforwardly she had given it some thought, and had come to the conclusion she did not feel up to it, socializing an entire day with someone she did not know, and being on a sailboat while her knees are hurting badly , both knees recently.
    also with her issues with her partner she did not feel up to it mentally.
    that felt ok with me, at least this was an honest reason instead of the socalled alarm bells about the guy inviting us.
    so we had a nice lunch, and I feel now the relief coming both of the dream in which pieces fell together and on top of that the valuable moments of talking about it and showing my feeling.
    it is strange how the burden dissipates then, now I feel like ‘why would I need to act or behave in any way to be interesting?’
    having an open mind and eye for the others is what counts after all.
    suddenly the issue seems hardly to exist anymore and I feel more free to move on and live with the present and what it has to offer.
    when she left, my girlfriend said how nice it is that with me we can both express what hurts or bothers us, and can also keep laughing and having a good time shortly after .
    that is very true, I am very happy to have her for a friend.
    also glad I did tell her honestly how I felt, it is great I can do that with her.

    • Sylvia says:

      That is great that you can communicate feelings with your friend and she with you.
      I’ve wavered between trying to gain attention and feeling I don’t deserve it too. I had a year of depression in my teens where all I wanted was not to be noticed and wanted to hide. I remember someone trying to take my picture in class and i saying, ‘no I’m not worth it.’ It’s better to try to get the attention, I think, than to give up. I know I like words of encouragement and it makes therapy progress better to get positive feedback. I think it makes it safe and opens memories.
      It’s surprising that we can feel those old hurts with friends and then go about our business and not be mired in it the rest of the day.

  191. Otto Codingian says:

    good for you, sylvia. “It’s surprising that we can feel those old hurts with friends and then go about our business and not be mired in it the rest of the day.” wish i could say the same.

  192. Otto Codingian says:

    anyway, too many old hurts for me and little will to feel them. I just watched a “stupid” movie “waiting..” ryan reynolds, anna farris. about young people who work at a restaurant and their camaraderie. any cameraderie i had at 19, 20, 21 was failing fast, i think. cant remember, too many drugs and drink. whatever. stupid movie that should actually get an oscar. kind of real. about life. or not. just reminded me of my lost youth, lost chances. too tired to weep and not enough impetus to do so. i really should go to groups but cant seem to move on doing so.

    • sylvia says:

      Otto, even watching movies can be therapy, if you feel something about it. Films have had that affect on me,

  193. Otto Codingian says:


  194. Margaret says:

    I have rered your comment several times.
    it must have been so hard to struggle with this feeling at such a young age, and in school, nowhere to hide there…

    I did contact the sailor from the dating site to let him know my friend would not be able to go, so we canceled the trip for this friday.
    but I told him I would like to stay in contact and remained open to the idea of a sailing trip. I asked him how he felt about this.

    he replied he would also like to stay in touch, and if the occasion risis still would like to go sailing with me.

    so that was nice to hear, even while I do not expect much really.
    at least I got a clear reply, for what it means it does remain positive .

    I noticed today I was so much more able to do household stuff, vacuuming, cleaning etc., less depressed, although this afternoon I got bored with reading and might be inclined to pick up the studying of my uninteresting course once more….

    but hey, I did read Eleanor Oliphant, and enjoyed the read, it seemed to be well in tune with the feelings I have struggled with last week…

    it is getting so dry here, Europe is gradually changing in a desert instead of a green and moist countryside.
    poor planet…

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. Yes, those were difficult times dealing with a depression at that age. I’ve since read that many teenagers have gone through this and are able to pull out of it after about a year. That was how it was for me. It was a struggle to concentrate for sure and keep up my grades, but by the next year I was myself and enjoyed my friends and classes again. Funny how over the years I’ve forgotten mostly about it, but remembering so much those past hard times have come up. It was a feeling of alienation and disconnect mixed with neediness. At one point I said to my mom that I didn’t feel like she was my mom. What a thing to feel and say. Yet at school I would miss the security of home and couldn’t wait for the bell to ring. Now I wonder from what we know about feelings what is the origin of those thoughts. Could it be that my mom never wanted me. Probably. She confessed once that she hated that thing inside her. So that could be it. A mental breakdown is what they used to call it. But it’s when your past intrudes upon your present.
      I think the planet is getting dryer, Margaret. We’ve had fires here in the next county from drought. Ashes have filled the air for the past week and so many have lost their homes.
      Still, people are helping and volunteering. Shelters for everyone at schools and churches and animals and pets being housed at the fairgrounds. There has been total coverage on the news. A fellow sent in a picture of four exhausted firemen safely asleep in his back yard taking a break from fighting the fires.
      I’m feeling sad for my little self today. That’s therapy for you.

  195. Otto Codingian says:

    quintessential sad song If You Could Read My Mind – Gordon Lightfoot. i am too tired to weep. this sojg is making me think of my old dog sophie, she seems sad or depressed a lot. i wonder if she feels bad that her mate otto and buddy cody left many moons ago. i know that animals miss their budddies somewhat. or more, i don’t know why this thinking is coming to my head (animal sadness). well we carry on until we can’t. this note from another youtube clip “Lightfoot has cited his divorce for inspiring the lyrics, saying they came to him as he was sitting in a vacant Toronto house one summer.” sad sad sad. loss of a mate, beyond tragic.

    • Sylvia says:

      I agree, Otto, this song is soulfully sad, and I’ve always liked it, it is beautiful too and makes you feel.
      Hope your dog feels better. Sometimes they get depressed if something physical is bothering them. Since a check-up last week the vet says my dog’s kidneys are better from being on a special diet for a couple of yrs. He is more perky except for some bladder crystals he had to be on antibiotics for and now a different diet for that.
      We love our dogs. As a little boy said on the local news the other day, relieved, when they found his dog ok hiding from the fires–“dogs are human too.”

  196. Larry says:

    On July 23 I left on a drive to Vancouver Island to visit a buddy and his wife who I haven’t seen in several years. When he lived on the Prairies he and I went on at least a couple of canoe-camping trips in the Canadian Shield boreal forest wilderness every summer for a couple of decades until about 2005. He fell in love and got married in early August, 2006, on Vancouver Island. They will celebrate their wedding anniversary in a couple of days.

    12 years ago my wife and I drove out there for the wedding. It was my first time on that highway that we took through the mountains of British Columbia to the west coast. I was his best man. He has lived there since and he and I don’t see each other much anymore, but still keep in touch. This spring he suggested that I visit him and we would do a canoe-camping trip in the wilderness of northern Vancouver Island. As this spring turned into summer I decided to take up his invitation, though this would be an easier, shorter, gentler canoe trip than anything we did when we were younger.

    The drive to his home took me 4 days. It took one day to cross the prairies and arrive at the mountain foothills. It took 2 more days to wind most of my way through the mountains. The 4th day got me through the last leg of the mountains, then the ferry ride across the Straight of Georgia and to his home on Vancouver Island.

    This was only the second time that I had driven this route. It was the first time I had done it without my wife. All the memories were awakened of that first trip that we made to my friend’s wedding. Almost exactly one year after the wedding my wife became uncharacteristically physically tired, as if she had a bad cold. 2 years and 3 days later she died of cancer. We sure didn’t see that coming. Now, 12 years after my friend got married, I make the trip alone, just before the anniversary of his wedding, and the anniversary of my wife’s death. A lot of memories and sadness bubbled up on this trip and soaked into my being. I didn’t find time or place though to feel safe to primal them.

    Driving the winding up and down mountain highways, at speeds that are too slow for the people behind me so they try to pass at any opportunity, or inevitably someone in front of me is too slow and I have to pass them when there is a chance, feels very dangerous when hurtling around curves that seem to never end or spiral ever tighter and I dare not look toward the edge over which I would go careening following brake failure or one error in judgement or lapse in attention by myself or the drivers around me as we race toward the future. I’m not surprised when at the end of the day I hear on the news of people killed in crashes on the mountain highways in British Columbia, even semi-trailer trucks colliding with each other. I’m not surprised when I see the black skid marks on the pavement of trucks approaching curves and the driver realizing almost too late that they were going too fast. I’m not surprised to see a recreational vehicle trailer lying on its side beside the road, apparently having been towed at too high speed. Driving these mountain highways requires constant vigilance and readiness to react to always changing road and traffic conditions. There is no enjoyment in it. I am drained at the end of each day. I don’t recall this trip being as stressful the first time I did it, when I was younger and felt invincible. I am way more aware of my mortality these days.

    Ditto for the 2 night canoe-camping trip that my friend and I went on the next day after I got to his place. In the wilderness there is always the risk of an encounter with a black bear. Most black bears run away from people. Some have learned that careless campers leave garbage and food behind, so those bears are attracted to campsites. A few bold, fearless black bears prey on people. I enjoyed many years of canoe-camping when I was young and didn’t know that they will eat people. I’ve since read of horrible, deadly maulings by black bears. I’m way more aware of the danger and of my mortality than when I was younger.

    That first night, as we were preparing to retire to our respective tents, my friend said here, take this knife, I have a spare one. I said I have my own, and a can of bear spray. I said I won’t be able to relax enough to sleep without them. He said stick the knife up a soft spot, in its belly or its neck if it comes to that. I know, I said. He said yell out and I will come to help. I thought, that is no comfort because if I wake up to a bear ripping out my throat, you’d be better off to get out of here fast and save your life. I wondered whether that’s what I’d probably do if it were attacking him. Needless to say, I hardly slept that night. Never before on camping trips had my mind been filled with the horrible images of what bears had done to people and that could happen to my friend and I that night.

    On the second night, I was too tired to care about bears. I remembered that the risk of dying in a car crash on the drive through the mountains to my friend’s place was greater than the risk of dying in a bear encounter. I slept long and peacefully.

    It was surprisingly, uncharacteristically hot in British Columbia during this visit. The air was full of haze and smoke like I have never seen before, from fires being fought in Siberia, Alaska, and British Columbia. The world is going up in flames, it seems. I made a comment to my friend about human caused global warming. It’s not human induced, it’s all part of normal sunspot cycles etc., he said. He read a book about it he said. I was shocked that he would lap up such pseudoscience. I didn’t argue about it with him though. I feel he needs the comfort of turning a blind eye toward reality. I feel that the massively growing demands of our human population on nature has us skidding close to the edge of collapse of the biophysical systems we count on to support our lifestyles. Tonight, the first night back home after my trip, exhausted, I feel distressed about the nightmare that awaits us. I feel nostalgia for the days when I wasn’t so aware of harsh reality. I likely have a primal on the rise.

    • Phil says:

      I’m glad you didn’t get eaten by a bear.

      • Phil says:

        Here we’ve been having the rainiest month of July that I remember, rain almost every day and very humid. I don’t understand how anyone can deny climate change.

        • Phil says:

          I mean human caused climate change

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Phil: My take:- “DENIAL” is the greatest defense of them all.


        • Larry says:

          It’s the same as how we all deny anything that’s too painful for us to accept, I think, Phil.

          • Phil says:

            Larry, I guess you’re right, except your friend attributes climate change to non-human causes. I wonder if that is any less painful. With climate change deniers it often is related to politics, I think, or religious beliefs.

            • Larry says:

              In the latter of the decades that I knew him, he took up religious beliefs. I think it was after the death of his parents.

            • Larry says:

              Also on this trip it was obvious to me more than ever that he must suffer from feelings of helplessness and insecurity, that he compensates for by needing to project strength and by being somewhat controlling (exasperating me at one point during my visit to the extent of my having a brief, sharp angry outburst toward him). I think the idea of human induced climate change that we can and must do something about, likely stirs feelings of overwhelming helplessness in a lot of people. For those people the idea of climate change caused by sunspots that we have no responsibility for is likely easier to accept.

              I just hope there are enough people and leaders who are emotionally and mentally healthy and stable enough to step up and take action to help avoid the worst of what will otherwise befall the generations ahead due to global warming. That behaviour to take action to help future generations in itself seems revolutionary to me. When in western society do we ever worry for generations other than ours and maybe our children’s? And of course we can’t know what will befall future generations, although the science predicting the long term effects of human induced global warming is ever more convincing. But who outside of science circles ever looks at scientific evidence. Shockingly few it seems to me.

  197. Sylvia says:

    Thank you for the sweet, sad song, Larry. I’m glad you made it back from your long trek. Such danger. Feelings on the rise for you….
    Take care.

    • Larry says:

      Thanks Sylvia. Did you ever feel the want to take up a helping profession? You are always there to support us. I appreciate it.

      It’s amazing how much more grounded and able to face the world I felt with my wife in my life. It’s amazing how nine years after I’m still uncovering the depth of shock I feel at her death. It’s amazing to grasp how strong we would be if we had been loved as children.

      • Sylvia says:

        Thank you, Larry. I just appreciate the help and positive feelings I get here too, and like connecting to you all. Another touching song you’ve found. I recall a few years ago reading an old valentine card my dad gave my mom from when we were growing up, and he wrote, ‘ to my girl’, love ‘D.’ It’s so nice when people have such a strong bond.

  198. Sylvia says:

    Fred, I’m answering down here, rather than way up there, due to my fear of heights, ha. I think you should write about what is of interest to you and what you want to share with us. We’re all ears.

  199. Larry says:

    I am curious about what felt strange, Fred.

  200. Otto Codingian says:

    stay home with dog and cats and clean catbox, shower mold, dishes, who knows what else while my wife goes to a baby shower (party). so, no bickering for a while as to why i won’t pay or call carecredit about her dental and cat veterinarian procedures of years ago.well, not heaven but close enough. that was a lot of my “fun” at some point in my childhood, work/homework alone with no one to bother me with overneed. also watch tinker tailor soldier spy for the 100th time. where do they come up with such beautiful movies, and most all else on cable is shit? Went to p.i. yesterday at 3 like I used to, to use the small room and feel via music. Did not appear to work for me. my ipod lost its mind. Barry was surprised to see me come to do that. Must have been over a year since I have tried that. Feelings will come up at home from time to time, I can cry a bit, music or video-inspired. I cannot be very loud though, and I feel a need to be loud. I don’t feel a need to cry long usually when this occurs, but I feel I should. I see most dd peopled cry a few tears when a feeling comes up, in the groups I have infrequently gone to over the years. Some people cry their hearts out, some leave the group room to be really loud. I never understand the “short” cries of myself or other people. It obviously is real but is that really enough? Maybe people are crying long and loud in their sessions, I have no idea. We have either a sick or pregnant cat nesting in the leaves by our front porch. It does not seem to scare easy, so maybe sick. Mario’s lawnmower scared it away but it seems to be coming back daily now. White and black, like the cat we got from our dead neighbor. If pregnant, I hope we are able to help it somehow, get it fixed, find homes for kittens. Anyway. still writing a bit for political purposes, i have liked to write since 5th grade.

    • Larry says:

      “….political purposes….” ?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Otto: I’m not always clear about what’s going on with you underneath, but I do feel this blog does it for you … perhaps more than you know … or at least, say so.

      I sense the great harm done to you as a kid. It’s so, so so, sad.

      Good luck Otto and keep at it.


  201. sylvia says:

    Otto, will the kitty by your porch eat for you?
    As for crying–big or small, I think it all helps. I’ve listened to music too to feel something, and there is sometimes only a few tears about sadness. Enjoy your day.

  202. Leslie says:

    JO – the book you recommended “Eleanor Oliphant Is Completely Fine” is amazing!!
    I could not put it down, and loved the journey thru laughter and heartbreak…
    Thank you So much!

  203. Jack Waddington says:

    Hi everyone: I thought to let you all know how things are going for me here.

    1) I love it here, and even enjoying the heat wave, though my Jimbo hates it. There was one night I couldn’t sleep because of the heat. The home is so comfy and the garden so lovely, that Jimbo tends.

    2) My relationship is going better than ever. I’m getting better at allowing him to be just exactly who he is and not allowing myself to get all caught up in his foibles. I do sometimes see what I might have missed out on by being “gay”, but I also see what I gained from it also.

    3) I’ve always said “don’t grow old”, but recently seen what I really mean by that. “Stay young in spirit and don’t get all grumpy about some of the restriction to living longer. Of course, I’m really talking to myself.

    4) Jimbo and I did become legal partners in front of a judge and two witnesses. All mainly for legal purposes. Since we bought the chalet we are now contemplating buying the plot of land it sits on. It does entail spending our capital, rather than saving for that ‘inevitable’ rainy day … but what the fuck. Just let’s do it.

    5) I am still obsessed with Trump and the news. Could there be a silver lining to it??? I sense there might be. I feel he’s achieving the very opposite of what he hoped for. I feel that America’s time has now passed; AND like we British still hanging in hoping that somehow the “Great” can be put back into “Britain”; a la Maggie Thatcher . What a forlorn hope that was.

    6) Yes! ageing does bring on some aches and pains, but I have no desire to get into any painkilling drugs or behaviors. Thanks to this therapy. I sure got MY money’s worth.
    7) I feel I am more able to “Be Here Now” as written by Richard Alpert all those years ago.
    8) It’s not ALL rosy … but for the most part it’s all managable. I love writng, but seemingly few, if any, wish to read me. Ah well!!! that’s life … yeah???


    • FRED says:

      I certainly don’t mind “hearing from you” and am even a bit envious of your current happiness.

      I DO think we all are in a kind of denial as “how much further” we could go. The bottom line we more or less stop, or slow way down in our willingness to “feel the pain”.

      • Larry says:

        There are those who stop or slow down in their willingness to feel the pain, Fred, but that’s not been my personal experience nor is it that of nearly all of the primal people who I know. The hard part about doing this therapy is always the choice of whether to take the next step forward or not. I can see why anyone would not want to go further, just as I can see why anyone would not want to do the therapy at all.

        • FRED says:

          I understand. If life is working for you then why not ENJOY? However, there is ALWAYS a little birdie tweeting if one chooses to listen.

          • Larry says:

            What do you mean by “there is always a little birdie tweeting…..”, Fred?

            • FRED says:

              I would say that life is never static. The Present is quite insistent. Or as Daniel put it, The Feeling Child demands to be heard even if we rather cruise along, riding on Janov’s Endorphins, truly doing well but maybe not hearing that infant, that child who, IN MY OPINION, is SCREAMING to be heard. Ultimately, IN MY OPINION, repression kills, just as it saved from the time of being neo-natal to around 12½ years.

      • Phil says:

        when you talk about how much further we could go, maybe you’re referring to some metaphysical level of primalling that you’ve been bringing up, but I question the reality of that. And so it wouldn’t be anywhere I’d want to go.


      • Jack Waddington says:

        Fred: As also said:- “It’s not all roses” But I did think to offer some of the good feelings I get.

        Then again; I’ve been at it for over 40 years. AND I did have a reasonably loving Mammy.


  204. Larry says:

    What might you have missed out on by being “gay”, Jack?

    • Jack Waddington says:

      Larry: “What might you have missed out on by being ‘gay;” Creating a family of my own, I discussed a lot of this with my straight brother, who did have three kids. My two sisters had two each, and then there is the comparability of the male/female.

      I have said many times that being homosexual is not “NORMAL” what ever normal is supposed to be. Where I was lucky is that I never went through that depressing phase in puberty about my sexual orientation. It offered me an act-out that during my killing-my-inner-pain-years, served me well. Also being a first born, I knew I was my mother favorite; though she always denied it. Then I had a granny (mother’s mother) that thought the sun shone out of my arse hole, and adored me.

      What I didn’t have was a daddy. Hence, a major part of my sexuality.

      Pure luck.


      • FRED says:

        All this is quite interesting on an intellectual level. Unfortunately, you had to live it. Very interesting about your mom and you being the favorite. I was the favorite of both my parents. I realize my dad was disappointed in his daughter. My sister didn’t live up to his expectations. How, then did I turn out so “damaged”? It’s a rhetorical question.

        That said, REMEMBER: Third line and late second line are a SMALL part of the make-up of the psyche.

        • Jack Waddington says:

          Fred: Yep; my gayness started in the womb … that I now know, then exacerbated with the 2nd and 3rd line stuff.


  205. Margaret says:

    I think generalisations can be tricky.
    slowing down or the willingness to feel the pain decreasing, for ‘us’, well, at least if it is true there can be so many different reasons.
    one can be the level of our pain has diminished, so the urgency of it, or the being overwhelmed by it as well.
    a quote from Barry, very wise, ‘no need to scratch if it does not itch…’
    improving our life and our wellbeing is the main goal after all.
    therapy is never only about feeling as much pain as possible.
    improving our life brings up feelings automatically, all we need to do is to be open to them.

    I am always pleasantly surprised when my mind comes up with a virtual group session or even meeting with Barry while I sleep. very intense dreams with often strong feelings that are dealt with.
    and other times reading a book can trigger a feeling, or whatever , music, tv etc.
    the access gets incorporated more smoothly , and becomes a part of life.

    feeling more happy and balanced is a good thing, not a bad one.

    of course it is possible you are speaking for yourself, but it would come across better if you would frase things that way.

    you are still in an intense grieving process so more pain to deal with, more often and more intense, just relating it here to your own state of mind if you would not have suffered the loss.

    comparing to others is tricky and not very useful in most cases in my experience.

    what does not mean there are no common grounds and patterns and many ways to relate with each other of course.

    • FRED says:

      A la Jack, I will attempt to respond to some of your thoughtful comments.

      “level of our pain has diminished, so the urgency of it, or the being overwhelmed by it as well.”

      I completely understand. Some people have some success in (Primal) therapy, feel better and choose to formally leave but, hopefully in many cases, have some new skills and can “primal” about certain feelings brought up by daily events.

      “a quote from Barry, very wise, ‘no need to scratch if it does not itch…’”

      Barry indeed has unique abilities, is wise in his way. He has a unique energy, I call it “survival energy”. I believe in Primal terms this relates to the first year of life, AFTER birth. Janov posits a First Line, related to brain development. I agree with him (why wouldn’t I?–he has done an enormous amount of research and is a genius in this field). I would, however, separate birth, in the sense that (to paraphrase Janov) “the conditions of your birth color your entire life”.

      “feeling more happy and balanced is a good thing, not a bad one.”

      I didn’t mean to imply this but, as you know, for some people events have a way of undermining one’s status quo.

      Personally, happiness is not a goal for me. I’ve been there, done that. It was great but now I’m going to move on to bigger and better, again this would apply to ME.

      Let me put it in “Janovian” terms. My supply of endorphins upon which I kind of cruised along several years, ran out. No more surplus! No, instead a deficit which means I simply cannot continue in the old ways. It was impossible anyway, given the events of the last year. It’s a brave new world of getting into feelings, aka “having primals”. I would not recommend this course of action for anyone but I would not not recommend this course. Everyone has their “karma” (actually a rather regrettable term as, at any instance we can “neutralize” karma but that is an entirely different discussion).

      “comparing to others is tricky and not very useful in most cases in my experience.
      what does not mean there are no common grounds and patterns and many ways to relate with each other of course.”

      To what you say I, of course, would agree. Everyone’s lifepath is utterly unique. All my life, for example, I’ve sought a way out of here, or as Bob Dylan put it “There must be some kind of way out of here”. I would think, FEELING the obstacles is the wisest course, again this is my idiosyncratic Lifepath. It is more than “feeling”, however. One must live a lifestyle that promotes feeling; indeed, there are so many distractions.

  206. Larry says:

    On my trip to the west coast and the drive through the mountains, I picked up a cold on the way home. I’m wrestling with it now and feel miserable, for two reasons. One reason is that I have less energy while fighting the cold, and become less active, more isolated and bored. The second reason is that memories and feelings bubble up but my body doesn’t have the energy to go into them, so I suffer from the emotional torment more than I would if I could primal them out.

    Today I take delivery of a new clothes washer and dryer. The old dryer is 23 years old. I took it apart recently to clean out lint piled up internally that had started on fire. The dryer still works but I feel it is on it’s last legs. I will replace the old washer and dryer with a new, stackable set, that will free up more room in my storeroom. The old washer and dryer stood side by side.

    To prepare for delivery I have to move a lot of stuff out of my storeroom to make it easier for the delivery guys to move out the old and move in the new appliances. A lot of the stuff in the storeroom are things I thought I would need intermittently but forgot about and don’t need anymore so it will get tossed Some of the stuff I just want to keep as markers of my life, for memory sake. Some stuff goes back 60 years. I have Grade 11 essays from composition class that remind me of the poor marks I got in composition. Those essays are like a time machine that take me back to high school, where instead of discovering who I was, I felt more and more lost and withdrawn. Most of the stuff in the storeroom was accumulated after I read the Primal Scream and discovered new hope that helped me embark on a path to grow my life. A lot of the stuff is from the years my wife and I shared together.

    While sorting through the stuff over the past few days and this morning, I feel the thread connecting all of my life, past to present and I’m saddened. A major chunk of my life has been lived, never to be lived again. The part after reading the Primal Scream, where life eventually began to open up for me, was good. I don’t want it to be over. I want to go back and live it again, better. Or maybe as I look back over my life I feel I’ve stalled and am no longer growing it. I feel I’ve peaked and am even going down hill now, in terms of taking on new challenges, having new experiences, meeting new people, and growing. I see a future where I might just become a shy, lonely old man. I think a primal might be near. It’s hard to tell with this cold dominating how I feel.

  207. Sylvia says:

    I hope you feel better, Larry.
    I can relate to looking at old stuff bringing back memories of not so happy times. It surprises me of how quick I’m thrown back into that time and then in a couple of minutes come back to the present, like we are a computer with feelings, tallying our past.
    I think I will check the dryer too.

  208. Phil says:

    As a kid, I had years of visiting my mother sick in a nursing home and usually I was ignored and not remembered by her, except for one occasion that stands out in my memory. That time she noticed me and asked a few questions; really just “what grade in school are you in”, and “who is your teacher”. I gave her short answers, I was in 3rd grade, and told her the teacher’s name.
    This was a very big incident for me, and I never seem to get far with it, but today I was able to cry a little with this memory I think for the first time, taking it as something good from my mother. All other times on these visits, that I can recall, she didn’t notice or remember about me, but here was one time she did. Only, of course, I needed it all those other times, and it was so little. That was the entire conversation.
    I didn’t approach my mother on these visits except I vaguely remember picking out a Christmas present and bringing it and that probably happened every year. I remember how limited the possible presents were, since she really couldn’t enjoy anything.
    Otherwise I just stood at a distance saying nothing. I think it’s because I wanted my mother, on her own accord, to remember and notice me. At earlier ages trying to get my mother’s attention brought on negative results, so that would be the other reason.
    There would or should be more to remember when she wasn’t as sick, not in a nursing home, and living at home with us, and maybe someday I’ll be able to remember those times.

  209. Otto Codingian says:

    i submitted comments to NIH who are trying to hold on to chimps they dont do research on any more. Chimp Haven wants the chimps. I feel some teary stuff having done so. Probably cause i could never speak my mind. could not speak my mind when my uncle killed baby pigeons for dinner. could not speak my mind to girls, teen-age and onward. could not speak my mind to my grandmother. anyway, i probably did more harm than good, answering NIH request questions: ( I AM NOT INCLUDING THEIR QUESTIONS, JUST MY ANSWERS:

    Listen: SHORT LIFE AND A MERRY ONE, as you might often hear in a 3 Stooges short-film. No animal wants to live in a cage or lab for 45 years or whatever. They would rather live in a Chimp Haven, outdoors, for only 2 daysk, rather than a long life in a little room. You know this and I know this. It is like leaving your grandma in a nursing home for the rest of her life, for a chimp to remain in a lab for no reason. You might think the chimp is used to where it lives. Well Brother, that chimp says: ” get me the heck out of this stinky lab. I will love the smell of trees, dirt, and grass, and many chimpanzees. I hope you understand. THERE IS NO REASON FOR YOU TO HANG ON TO EVEN THE SICKLIEST OF CHIMPS, when the sanctuary is offering to take them. Thank you.
    No, just give them to Chimp HAVEN. Science has already done enough to these poor animals.
    Chimp Haven take chimps. You can send Chimp Haven their medical records for the vet, if you want. But let those chimps go NOW. Don’t be like HHS and hang on to migrant babies because you can’t let go. LET THEM GO NOW, PLEASE!
    I dont know if Chimp Haven wants your collaboration. That is up to them.
    I am in the government too. SOP’s are a waste of time. Chimp Haven is probably more of an instinctual place. Yes, sendd chimps in intact social groups. Well do whatever you want, as long as this happens fairly quickly. Just go talk to Chimp Haven and see what they say about this.
    there is no WHETHER. GIVE ALL CHIMPS to the HAVEN. Even if the chimp is 100 years old and has a bad back from years of testing, IT IS MOST LIKELY TO WISH TO BE OUT OF HORROR LAB!
    I guess, if you pay for it. Maybe Jane Goodall’s group can look at the chimps in the Haven and get this info for you.
    WHATEVER. JUST DON’T GIVE THE CHIMPS TO A CIRCUS. Toby Tyler is long dead. But it feels like you scientists want to wrangle the last morsel of info out to these poor animals. NO! NOW THEY GET TO RETIRE, JUST AS WE WOULD ALL LIKE TO.

  210. Otto Codingian says:

    Now i will probably have my famous nightmare where someone is coming to kill me and i am trying to scream HELP, and i can only get a faint help out, no matter how hard i try to scream. like group, total fear to even open my mouth.

  211. Larry says:

    So this morning I’m up before sunrise, and after opening window blinds and windows, all east facing, to let in the cool air, I settle at the computer to quickly get caught up on latest developments in my world. A nice thing about retirement is not having to always be in a hurry in the mornings to be somewhere early. So I’m sitting here, gradually coming awake in the pre-dawn light and the stillness of a cool, late summer morning, seeing whether anything new has been posted on the blog, reading responses on Facebook from friends and family, catching up on email, reading the digital New York Times, and checking the weather forecast. The weather people warn that over the next two days heat records will be broken on the Prairies.

    The sun begins to appear on the horizon, as I sit alone in the quiet of the ephemeral dawn light, just before the City awakens to begin it’s toil. This time I think and feel how there were sunrises even before there was life on earth; how the sun rose exactly like this at the start of my life; how I am three years old, weighed down with fear and aloneness in the big, big world, and am adult in the future present, having survived and made something meaningful of my life and how f!#@ing hard it was and I wouldn’t have made it if I hadn’t found this therapy; how those years of my life are gone and with them any chance to make something more of them than I did, and yet how amazing that I even made it this far.

    Feeling moved at witnessing the birth of this day, and feeling a connection to the thread of my life, I think how there have been one and a half quadrillion sunrises since this planet was formed, and how I’ve been here for the last twenty four thousand and five hundred. An optimistic estimate is that until my death I have probably at most eleven thousand more to try to overcome my childhood, and make my remaining life more how it could have been had I been enriched with parental love during my one and only crack at existence.

  212. Otto Codingian says:

    I sometimes see my wife crying deeply, as if she had been killed in a car accident. See her crying in my mind. And I feel bad for the way I have treated her for the last 45 years, and I feel bad for how I still treat her. We used to go see Barry every 2 weeks together and she was a mess much of the time afterwards. That is In my opinion and memory. She certainly liked seeing Barry though. She doesn’t go to primal any more since she lost her main job a few years back, and I don’t really ever see her crying. But she has her AA and at this point, I guess she does not want to dredge up old shit. She certainly has reason to cry over her childhood, from what I understand. But she seems happy in her life, loves her kids and grandkids, and she says she loves me, but I really don’t see how, because I am not much of a person. She spends a lot of time writing so as to graduate with her masters. Yesterday our 45th anniversary, went to the promenade and she ate vegetables and I ate some steak. Got her flowers and she bought some beautiful yarn to knit a blanket for our grandson. We watched the Amy Schumer movie and another one too. I see my death coming every day; not sure if it is partially an old feeling, mostly and old feeling, or what. Anyway, hotter than hell in l.a. this year. Don’t want to even go to the beach. I should be happy to have this much, but childhood and adult pain keeps that happiness at bay.

    • Larry says:

      That is so sad, Ottol

    • FRED says:

      These ALL are feeling. If you could try to follow them, if you will. They will LEAD you “somewhere”. Maybe Janov did readers a bit of a disservice in characterizing childhood as 12.5 years of pain, damage, trauma, that is where nightmares originate.

      Yes, the past, that is childhood, toddlerhood, infancy, birth were AT TIMES traumatic but I dare say that MOST people have, what I call “compensating energies”.

      I dare say that there is kind of an inviolate space within each individual, especially in childhood. It has many characteristics: magical, loving, “whole”, knowing, feeling, blessed.

      I shall not go into that at this time, but I think I’m trying to say that when one allows feelings, albeit often in a slow way over time; follows them, one finds MORE solace, peace, blessedness in manifesting them rather than continuing the old pattern of behavior.

      These feelings are actually FEEDBACK and, to our best ability, we should listen to them. Paraphrasing that public service commercial that used to run on TV a lot, “We can learn a lot from depression (or anxiety, fear or feelings of desolation)”. We ALL, know about external things that “assist” repression such as alcohol and food abuse, prescription drugs, etc.

  213. I have put up a new blog post Gretchen

  214. Of course, both implicit and explicit memory systems usually work together to produce feelings and behavior, even if one is not conscious of the former. It is Janov?s hypothesis that proper therapy must include a conscious connection to one?s physiological imprint. Even though a person cannot, for instance, remember images of what he or she perceived at birth, it may be possible to bring to consciousness the physical and emotional reactions of that experience. Such connections, in Janov?s view, are essential to the healing process.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Medical consultant: I’m not sure what you are getting at, and I read your comment 3 times.

      It seemed to me you are suggesting Janov did not follow the conventional methodology of that time, hence, it is not valid

      Seemingly, you think unless Janov had used contemporary studies (of averages) … he, Janov, might have come up with a different result … much more to the liking of people like you in the medical profession.

      I contend had he done so, we would be still be stuck with the complexities of medical theories, based on objective material (rather than subjective material), whereas, I feel he ‘blew the lid off’ those theories, which I further contend, you guys are still ignoring. The medical profession is the culprit that is now, why I need ‘the medical profession’, little realizing you have created the need for the medical profession.

      It is purely, IMO, that he did do the correct manner of study, by trying out the question he put to ‘Danny Wilson’, with many other of his patients … including HIMSELF, and came to the results he did … outside the conventional Freudian theory of the time, of which he was a student. … In much the same way that Copernicus and Gallileo did in order to refute the flat earth notion. by their own experiences, looking through telescopes, into the skies

      It took time for the latter astronomical theories, but it’s now conventional wisdom. Much that you guys have abandoned the “bloodletting” notion, but seemingly slow on the uptake to just CONTEMPLATE Primal theory. You’ll get there … e v e n t u a l l y .


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