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Primal Institute 
Berk, Sorry to hear your dog isn’t doing well. I know how hard that is. Gretch
I also wanted to make a quick comment on using drugs of any kind. I think we are all pretty much on the same page but just to be 100 percent clear we really don’t advise it. Whether we are talking about LSD, pot, alcohol or any number of substances really doe not matter. It can be extremely dangerous. There are also more effective ways to get closer to your feelings that we believe will have better long term results. Gretchen
Gretchen, far be it from me to say you’re the most devious person in the world, and your message here is taken well enough even though I might not agree with it 100%, but why didn’t you post it on the previous page along with the rest of the conversation we were having? It just seems as though you’re giving yourself a sneaky upper hand of sorts when posting this on a brand new page after the drug conversation participants had largely exhausted themselves on the previous page and were unlikely to repost the same material here in close proximity to your comment.
Granted this is a minor quibble as I have far bigger worries than this, but still worth noting.
Truly this is an utterly trivial matter compared to the terrible things going on in the world too numerous to mention. I almost felt too guilty for calling this out as it’s such a minor item.
Absolutely no deviosity here.
Get off it!
A new page was needed, I was wondering when this would happen.
Old page is too jammed.
EVERYONE on this forum has access to the new page, and can take advantage of the uncluttered presentation.
‘nuf said.
LesB:
Maybe you didn’t notice, but I spent a whole week, if not more, back in November of last year begging Gretchen to make a new page for page 3. She never responded for the longest time and it was a strange mystery.
I tried…
Here…. https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/why-am-i-in-therapy-nothing-so-horrific-happened-to-me-by-joanna-page-2/#comment-42808
Here…https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/why-am-i-in-therapy-nothing-so-horrific-happened-to-me-by-joanna-page-2/#comment-42816
Here (where I begin to discuss the ongoing matter with Larry & Jack)…https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/why-am-i-in-therapy-nothing-so-horrific-happened-to-me-by-joanna-page-2/#comment-42853
And finally here about a week after the saga began….https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2019/01/14/why-am-i-in-therapy-nothing-so-horrific-happened-to-me-by-joanna-page-2/#comment-42848
So, when Gretchen suddenly switched this last page right out of the blue with no warning, cutting off the drug conversation and putting her input on a fresh page…Yes, I was going to wonder…”What’s up with all that in light of the extreme difficulty I faced in November 2019?”
+++++
Former patient from Almont.
Few years ago I was put on Gabapentin for pain from shingles. That med f***ed me up real good. In hindsight, I shoulda just weathered the pain.
Hi, Les B. I am the guy asking you about Gabapentin. Please email me at skibuff41@yahoo.com with any reply you might have to my question about how Gabapentin f***ed you up good,” as you put it. I was put on a single dosage of Gaba about 3 years ago for what the medicos called “age-related spinal degeneration.” I’m 79 and experience numbness and tingling in my left arm continually. It may be because a 4th-stage non-Hodgkins lymphoma was discovered on my T-9 vertebrae in January 2011. It took only 6 rounds of chemo to dissolve the tumor, but I was left with this numbness and tingling in my left arm eventually. The tumor was so aggressive that it actually fractured the T-9 vertebrae. When I developed shingles in January 2020, I stepped up my dosage of Gaba to as much as 6 capsules a day to stem the pain. The pain is mostly gone. It took about 6 months to subside to a tolerable level, but I still have some residual faint evidence of the virus in my system in the form of numb tissue on my back. I think the Gaba is giving me an irregular heartbeat and affecting my balance, but otherwise it just makes me occasionally drowsy. Can you email me and briefly let me know how Gaba affected you adversely, or “f***ed you up,” as you put it? Thanks.
Thanks for the new page, Gretchen. “Far out”, as they used to say in the 60’s. I was always afraid of drugs.
Hi everyone: I totally agree with Gretchen about most of those psychedelic drugs. As I see it I did not have any bad effects from any of them. My contention was that having had a very good mother, who wanted me and loved me; my major PRIMAL SCENE for me was at birth and then a reliving of it at age two and a half..
I contend, the way we got traumatized will depend on how we react to drugs. All drugs the prescribed ones as well.
But the question goes a little deeper than all that. The pharmaceutical industry is pouring out drugs faster than we are able to take them and many IMO are not all they are cracked up to be.
In my case I have been taking a simple cough mixture for some coughing that brings up phlegm. It all seemed so normal and natural until for two days I stopped, since I ran out of it. Guess what, the coughing decreased.
The contentions between Jim and I are all about medications. He’s well and truly steeped into it. I am a little more wary.
The saying goes:- It depends on how YOUR ‘cookie crumbled’
Jack
Guru, If it was such a minor issue I doubt you would characterize me as devious. I posted a new page because the old page was not allowing me to comment with out cutting and pasting from my email. I encourage you to repost any comment you are concerned will be overlooked. If you prefer I will be happy to do that for you. I’m not sure what the issue is however because as I said I was under the impression we were all on pretty much the same page. It simply struck me as a serious enough subject ( and possibly dangerous) that Barry or I should weigh in on the issue.Gretchen
Gretchen, I wouldn’t go so far as to ‘characterize (you) as devious’ where this matter is concerned. It just SEEMED kinda sneaky, and a skeletal network of about 2,100 out of my 100 billion brain cells sent me an alert message to this effect. I did consider ignoring the alert altogether, yet the slight ensuing irritation compelled me to move forward.
I was pretty much finished with the drug topic, except to say I am only 92%+ in agreement with you as I don’t object to C-A-U-T-I-O-U-S experimentation to see if there are any benefits.
Just looking at the enormous number of psychotropic prescription meds handed out under legal and professional sanctioning leaves me reticent to completely closing the door on personal experimentation.
Addendum:
It was discussed in the recent past about Janov and various loyalists completely closing the door on anything beyond materialism and the eternal end of all subjective experience upon death.
With Gretchen and her close associates closing the door to all forms of drugs and alcohol as well, it starts to give me a ‘strict atheistic schoolmarm’ feel to the whole scenery even though I had always believed such a depictions to be of Catholic nuns with rulers ready to slap our hands.
Very constricting.
No drugs.
No gambling.
No alcohol.
No afterlife.
H.S.I Guru, if an afterlife exists you will have it whether we believe or not, and over there you should be able to gamble, and do as much drugs as you want, not to mention sex and rock and roll, or any other subversive music styles you’re into. Money is unlikely to be needed and no doubt anarchy will reign.
Phil
About drug experiences, I tried LSD one time while in college, with no thought given to it. It was so terrible that I would never go near it again. I thought I was going crazy and every negative thought I had about myself was magnified like a million times. It was educational though, and did lead to my doing primal therapy. The first few minutes were extremely positive, so much so, that I thought, why can’t I be like that all the time.
Phil
Subscribing
Also subscribing.
Jack
Coincidentally, there’s an article in The NY Times today about Ayahuesca jungle retreats:
Didn’t want to say anything, but something is pushing me to do so. I had an insight after waking up a little while ago, but I don’t think it matters much. Cried a bucket of tears during group about something; not sure what, and not sure it matters. Something about– wasn’t it enough to be clobbered by life by losing my mom at 10 months? But no, then I was totally abandoned, unseen, unwanted and unable to express any of that to anyone for the rest of my life, to a large extent. For how could you express that horror at the age of 10 months, not knowing how to speak. Sure, crying, kicking, and screaming, but who wanted to listen to that. Well, the insight I had got muddled and I didn’t write it down fast enough and now it seems meaningless and it flew away. Anyways, I feel no empathy towards anyone in group but I guess I did not want to feel alone, so I watched and listened a little. Listened more to music which brought on the bucket of tears, but those tears realistically are probably worthless — and definitely not being a part of group, and no fooling, I never will. Even before covid, when we were in-person groups, I was barely there. Anyway, maybe I am gaining a little empathy for my mate, more and more, step by step, week by week, but i will curse the crap out of her every morning before she wakes up. Happy happy group members and their significant others. You have hope and can listen to each other and care for each other. I guess I am jealous of that, but oh well. The time keeps slipping by. Didn’t see that time passing by. Seems funny to be still thinking about a loss that happened 67 years ago. But as I was trying to say, good old life, you can sometimes count on it to continue the brutality on and on. I was touched last night watching the American. Clooney getting big smooches from his sweet Italian girlfriend whenever they would meet. Smooching left my life a long long time ago.
Otto, it seems like being present at the groups is helpful for you.
I feel that for myself, having been in zoom group last evening, unable to access at the time what was going on in me. But being there feels like I’m with real family, and I want that, even if I dont say anything.
This last week of August, feeling alone, bereft of people, jaded view of my life, hopeless, what’s the point.. effort to respond to an invitation for a walk with stepson yesterday, but I did. Anxious because I felt my lungs weren’t at full capacity while walking. After half an hour we sat on a wall in the sun, below was a 15’ drop (onto vegetation) but I couldn’t cope with the feeling of danger and I would imminently fall. Then home, in my cocoon. Later the zoom group,
This morning Ive woken from a vivid dream, the last bit of the story resonating with early boarding school. I was sobbing and coughing, horrible feeling, and back in a scenario where I had to perform (at 8yrs) in a choir, juniors and seniors together. Parents would be there, I think I’d been told mine wouldn’t be there (disappointing) but a strong hope that they would be.
This involved several of us walking to the ‘big’ school, but Nurse (matron) held my hand all the way (I was comforted but uncomfortable because I didn’t understand why she did this) She kept me apart from the crowds of other children, right up to the moment when we were placed on stage..all very surreal. It was because I’d fainted before a play I was in before, and fainted in an assembly, and she thought I might faint there.
I cried a lot about this earlier, calling for mummy, It connects to feeling fear about speaking in groups I suppose, or the individual thanks I had to say at Thanksgiving retreats, the spotlight on me, in any shape or form, to a greater or lesser degree, I eventually wondered (re the scenario described above) if it was because I was worried that my parents might be in the audience, might see me. There was hope they would, plus the huge need for them, but fear they would see me, as at home I wasn’t supposed to speak up at home. To complicate this issue, my father on occasion demanded I read out loud from the bible in a small group he ran…very difficult and painful.
I guess I’m conscious that being in groups are triggering in different ways.
Thanks for caring, Gretchen. This is heart-rending sad. She was coughing a lot this morning but finally fell asleep when i gave her a pill. we were giving her a liquid compounded version of that pill, and maybe the compound was just not as good as a pill. anyway, it’s getting close and i can barely deal with this. she trusts me so much. she loves her walks and food and being alive. life’s cruelest joke is leaving your mind alive while ravaging other parts of your body. she will be my last dog. i can’t do this again.
How painful for you Otto, so sorry.
“Euthanasia is a way to provide your pet with a peaceful and dignified passing. It is a way to give back to them for all their years of friendship, loyalty, and unconditional love.” years of f’ing love…this is so horrible.
Very sad , you loved that dog , I can tell.
I am sorry to hear about your beloved dog too, Otto. Believe it or not I did catch a glimpse of her in a couple of your old videos. Your writings about life being cruel with a sharp mind and ravaged body remind me a lot of the terribleness of what dad went through the last couple months before he died.
It all feels so wrong, as though it’s never supposed to happen.
Otto,
I am so sorry for you and your dog, I know how heartbreaking the goodbye can be.
but you do provide your dog with a feeling of safety and trust and make sure he won’t suffer unnecessarily.
that is all anybody could do and it means so much…
your level of sadness shows how big your level of love is, they go hand in hand when we have to say goodbye isn’t it?
thinking of you,
Margaret
Not to detract from Otto’s suffering in the slightest bit, but…
I know I am more vulnerable to either taking substances or gambling when a terrible feeling just hangs around, hangs around, hour after hour after hour. The terribleness might let up for a few minutes, but then only smothers me once more…hanging over me like a dark slimy cloak or shroud. Allowing all of the feeling to course through just leads to more of the same, never letting up, hour after hour.
That’s when I become utterly sick of the misery and seek an escape. If the misery never wants to leave, why the fuck would I want to lay in bed with it forever when I can find a quick and easy respite?
Maybe I am just looking for someone with an understanding heart ready to tell me, “Yes, Guru, it’s alright, go ahead and indulge. Take a break for tomorrow we all die anyway. Why die miserable?”
Otto, sorry about your dog. Nothing but hard, and missing the smell, touch, and love.
I went back and read some of the drug stuff posts. My brother who died used pot for quite a while many years ago, and liked it, but he said he tried LSD one time, and never would again, it was so bad. Extremely scary and disorienting. Both he and his wife wanted nothing more to do with it.
I remember reading in the 70’s that some who took it jumped out of windows, and died, of course.
And I knew someone who had taken a drug called STP back then, which a psych. prof. said was about 200 times more potent than LSD. He had taken STP two years earlier, and still had not recovered. His mind was racing all the time, and he could not speak fast enough to express it. He could only speak about every 5th or 10th word of what he needed to say, in the group. So no one could understand him. I found that by listening carefully, I could gradually adjust to guess what he must be aiming at meaning, so I could speak it back to him and get confirmation. But he was barely functioning, his girlfriend had to take care of him and help interpret for him, he couldn’t hold a job or anything. He had just tried the drug one time, and his life was ruined. I have never wanted to play Russian roulette like that.
I smoked pot just a few times, but the last time was a doozy — I think the stuff must have been laced with something stronger. The guys doing it were heavy daily users in college. Within two puffs, everything s–l–o–w–e–d d–o–w–n for me a lot, I could no longer keep up with the movement in the room. Next I could no longer feel my body below my neck, at all. I just was scared, and thought I’ve got to get home, but I didn’t know if I could make my body move, but I just tried to, and I couldn’t feel it, but it did move. I walked back to my own dorm room about two blocks away, scared the whole time. Keyed into my door, stepped in, and just fell onto my bed and slept for 10 hours, dead to the world. When I woke, first thing I checked was that I could feel my body again, and move ok, and it was a relief. Never again.
Hi Vicki:
Thanks for your own story about recreational drug use. I was really surprised you tried pot, for you struck me as highly strait-laced & highly disciplined with very few chaotic or counterculture lifestyle pursuits.
— I told Gretchen I favored legalizing drugs, yet I neglected to her mention why. It’s precisely due to what you experienced and your fear of your own drug being adulterated. With legalization, most of the risks of pesticides, greedy and dangerous dealers putting fentanyl in heroin or cocaine or pills, and other forms of spiking would be minimized if production was legalized and the process regulated for safety. Dosages would also be measured better for safety. When you buy from the black market, you truly don’t know what you’re going to really get!
–For the reasons above, I also favor safe injection sites as well.
–My favoring legalization doesn’t mean I want people to try drugs. If someone felt uncomfortable trying, I wouldn’t want him or her to try it either!
–LSD and STP do sound dangerous and I have no interest at all with those, either. That was a tragic story you shared.
Otto, It took me a year to even consider getting another dog. It was just too painful, in fact it still is. But it has been exactly a year now and I have just adopted a rescue who is happy to have a home. I’m glad I did but yes it is a long road. I do feel for what you are going through. Gretch
Les B from Almont ! Welcome to the blog! I hope you continue to visit! Gretchen
Otto,
Sorry about your dog, that’s really hard,
Phil
For some bizarre masochistic reasons, I’m following the developments in the US, especially the rapid and sweeping changes in academia, the violence and lawlessness, and of course the presidential race. I can’t help but follow the last two because they’re on the news and newspapers every day and every evening, but the first one is a torture I picked all on my own.
I’m not surprised at the post-modernist extremism of the intersectionalists who came out of richly activist but poorly academic Critical Theory university departments – I’ve written of their dangers here on the blog – but am very surprised, even shocked, at the speed and breadth of their current influence on academia, their ability to dictate terms, and especially at the almost complete lack of opposition to this agenda, even a total capitulation.
It is extraordinary that reputable institutions of higher education bow to anti-enlightenment spirits and are busy “decolonizing” their curriculum; even hard sciences such as Chemistry of Physics or Math, as if these were just another Uncle Ben or Aunt Jemima brands (the rebranding of which makes sense to me). It’s extraordinary that universities are receptive to being bullied or harangued into considering crazy “anti-racist” policies that are likely to end in just the opposite – small racial civil wars on campuses. And it’s extraordinary that nobody is rising to defend academic standards. Students, faculty, alumni and donors are all silent as bureaucrats lower admission standards, presumably to meet some racial quotas, thus practically ensuring the lowering of graduation standards.
As is appropriate for revolutionary movements, they are not settling for higher education; now California wants to require all its school districts to offer a semester-long ethnic studies class.
The Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum (head for the attachments at the bottom of the page) speaks the same extreme language of grievance, oppression, privilege, and anti-capitalism that the critical studies departments are so fluent in and their subject matter is now deemed appropriate for K-12 students. I won’t bore you with details, except for a Jewish point.
The model for ethnic studies includes African Americans, Chicana/o/x and Latina/o/x, Asian Americans and Pacific Islanders, and Native Americans and Indigenous people, but not Jews. However, Jews are not entirely excluded because in Unit 6 of the Approved Course Outline it is suggested that “Students will write a paper detailing certain events in American history that have led to Jewish and Irish Americans gaining racial privilege”.
Julius Streicher would have been proud.
Daniel, I will assume from what you have written that you are wanting to continue debating/discussing this same stuff with me. At the same, I think it has been established beyond the shadow of a doubt that we fall on opposite ends of the political spectrum with regard to these issues. And that it 100% impossible that you will be able to change my views. So why continue trying?
To be totally honest, when I read what you wrote, the only thing I found new and interesting was your first five words: “For some bizarre masochistic reasons.” I really think it could be worthwhile to get some help with exploring your underlying motivations for continuing to want to engage with me about this subject.
Daniel, I realize you are describing an apparent infection of far-left values onto mainstream academia, but I wanted to direct your attention to this blog entry from Paul Campos, as well:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/08/idea-laundering
The entry describes how far right-wing ideologues (and very deep-pocketed ones at that) have also infested mainstream academia with their beliefs through affiliated groups which donate lots of money to educational institutions, using said institutions to give a patina of academic respectability to the right-wingers in question.
Since you have said you are a moderate, I felt it best to include my very short post as a balance for your own post.
Please note: Paul Campos’ blog entry devotes well over half of its space to Kamala Harris’ citizenship issue, but the REAL issue Campos is trying to explain lies much deeper than that, towards the end of the semi-long blog entry, so patient reading is required to fully understand why I was saying what I did in my post above.
https://ibb.co/xhb0c1S
Thanks, Guru, for the link. Of course, there is the possibility that I may be locked in an information bubble where I only get only very specific pieces of information that reverberate what I already “know”. However, I consciously try not to be trapped that way. I do that by reading reports from several media outlets, both US and non-US, some considered left leaning and some right leaning. I mean, if one gets most of their information from Fox News and Breitbart, or from Democracy Now and Jacobin, then one is in a bubble.
Obviously, I can’t survey the entire US higher education system, so I may be too influenced by what I encounter. Still, my impression from the sample of university websites, policy proposals, and personal reports is as I wrote.
The blog article you linked to is indeed another symptom of a similar disease. Academics shouldn’t be right wing or left wing. The classic university is defined only by its scholarship and teaching. Not much room for politics in Math, Chemistry, Physics, AI, Quantum Computing, Psychology, Diplomatic History, Latin, the Classics, the Law, Textual Analysis (not “English”). A bit more discipline is required to keep politics out of subjects such as Literature, Sociology, Anthropology, History, Philosophy, and the Arts, but it is achievable. And none of the victimology or identity-massaging courses. I mean, those are legitimate concerns for some people, but they should remain in the public/political arena, not as academic fields on their own.
By the way, it is no accident that in that Robin DiAngelo interview Renée linked to a few months back DiAngelo describes herself as a Sociologist, even though she isn’t, her degrees and appointments being in Education, not Sociology. DiAngelo is unconsciously accompanying her false self-description with a little smile, a sort of an editorial about what she’s saying at that very moment. One wonders why DiAngelo isn’t describing herself as a critical race theorist. My guess is that she really wants to be considered a Sociologist because Sociology demands a level of rigor and part of her knows what real academics is and what is not. Critical race theory is not.
In case it isn’t obvious, were I an American I’d most certainly be a Democrat. Being a proponent of Scandinavian Social Democracy puts me in the political vicinity of Bernie Sanders, Elizabeth Warren and Andrew Yang, or some combination of the three.
In case it too isn’t obvious, as a world citizen I consider the single most important objective currently is to remove Trump from office, and to do it politically rather than judicially. Ironically but IMO not surprisingly, giving Trump another 4 years in the WH may be BLM’s crowning achievement. After all, as I was arguing here in the past, Trump is a pristine example of identity politics.
Daniel,
BLM is getting 63% support from the public,and about that number support the protests. But they may not poll as well in critical states for November, which is what matters. Trump is counting on activating his base and trying to tie Democrats to the looting and violence, to influence undecided voters. I’m afraid the election will be close, when it shouldn’t be.
Phil
Phil, I hope you haven’t perceived that I was ignoring your last few posts addressed to me. I simply had nothing good to add to what you said at the time.
I admit I have been posting here a LOT lately. I’m suffering from too much loneliness and way too thin of a support system. Clearly my need for some camaraderie has been seeping though here.
I know Otto and others are having a tough time as well, so I will happily shut up as much as I can for them if needed.
Guru,
I think you should say as much as you want here.
Hey Daniel, thanks for checking out the Paul Campos link. He’s one of my favorites! He does lean to the left, to be sure, but I always enjoy his intellectually snarky quips. I have another reason I like the guy a lot, but I won’t rehash that here and now.
–it would be a FASCINATING study (at least for me) to see whether colleges can have a score, an aggregate score, designating how “liberal” or “conservative” their professors in the ‘soft sciences’ (sociology, history, etc.) lean. Is such a scoring scheme in existence today?
–Another fascinating study would be to see whether ‘liberal’ designated schools have a greater percentage of STEM courses as a percentage of their total curriculum than ‘conservative’ designated school or vice versa. Some fascinating inferences might be drawn from any noteworthy results in this study.
–As for Robin DiAngelo..I will admit I do tend to lean in favor of your own beliefs here, but I don’t want to go any further regarding the author personally. I have not read her materials and it seems you and Renee are much more competent pugilists than I with this topic.
Hi Everyone: For last two or three months I have been feeling exhausted and as time passes it comes on stronger and stronger. It feels very physical … but I am willing to stay with it and see if there is an old feeling component in there.
Each day it gets worse and I have little energy to do anything. I am still able to get out of bed and pee several times in the night, but the effort is enormous. I feel I am dying.
Jim does not believe it and thinks I will eventually recover. I am not so sure. It is a very debilitating situation for me. If I do die I have no illusions that there is anything beyond this life.
If I go back into my ancestry I came from nothing and will return to nothing other than some peoples memory of me … until they’re gone then I am hardly a statistic
I just feel I needed to talk about it; especially since it’s getting worse.
Jack
Jack, you should go see a doctor or at least call them if they have telehealth where they can talk to you over the phone or see you with your computer. They could order some tests for you for blood sugar levels or heart function tests. Something has changed and you should find out what is going on. Take care, Jack.
Jack, PLEASE don’t die! I will miss you. And if you’re going to go ahead and die anyway, I hope that, as much as you feel up to it, you can talk about it here. None of us have had the experience of dying from old age and what it is like. I hope you can share your experience with us.
Jack,
I’m sorry about what you’re going through. You say you feel like you’re dying, but maybe that’s just a feeling. I sure hope you get some energy back and recover.
Phil
Jack. if you really feel as though you might be dying I will start to muster some empathy for you. It’s just that I have seen you put forth this frail, sympathy-evoking countenance many times before…even when I saw you in person 20 years ago!
I felt badly for your condition when Patrick attacked you 8 years ago, and even tried to protect you a few times early on…
Afterwards you were mean and denigrating to me, so the kindly old grandpa image wore off quickly and it hardened me,
It feels a bit like ‘The boy who cried wolf’.
Two months before my dad died he could barely write any words at all and he was 10 years younger with a stockier frame than yours, yet you still manage to type your blog post.
I’m not sure what to think considering those closest to you are also skeptical. I think you will be dying for the next 36 years until it happens in your sleep at 126 years of age.
Guru, those are indeed interesting questions. I think it would be fair to say that in most Universities in the free world faculty tends to be liberal more than conservative. Right wingers are up in arms about it. I don’t care about faculty politics as long as they teach the subject matter fairly and academically.
Phil, it makes sense to me that 63% of Americans support BLM, because the natural inclination is of course to stand by and support a struggle against racism. However, I’m doubtful Americans look further than the just cause and into the actual policy proposals that are being advanced and the ideas underpinning them. Take a look at the following Newsweek report and especially the infographic in it, from the African-American History Museum, summarising what Whiteness is. “Objective, rational thinking”, “cause and effect relationship”, “hard work is the key to success”, “plan for the future”, “delayed gratification”, are all declared to be “White” values.
These ideas are closely tied to developments such as the lowering of admission standards in Universities, or other accommodations made to bypass those “white” values. The rationalisation is that there is no real achievement gap between white and black kids, just bad and racist testing and admission standards. So, when considering admission, if we dropped, for example, “objective, rational thinking” or “cause and effect relationship”, which are “white” and therefore racist values, as criteria for admission, the achievement gap will go poof in the air.
Aside from the very relevant question what kind of science, medicine, law, and public services America will have when its students will resist “objective, rational thinking”, the irony is that real white supremacists traditionally project the opposite of these traits on black people, thinking they are lazy, less likely to be on time, not as good as white people. In other words, these ideas actually promote rather than mitigate racism.
Of course, such ideas are legitimate and perhaps have their merits, but they are outside western culture. So, the attack is on western culture and its enlightenment values, and at the moment a radical minority is dictating non-western values to the most important country in the western world. That is extremely powerful and also scary. I must say I don’t believe it will last and I fear the backlash might be very ugly, especially if Trump will win in November.
Renée, you’ve been trying to shut down such discussions from day 1, with the exact same arguments about protracted exchange, me trying to convince you, and down to the customary and innocently violent suggestions at the end of the comment to look at my motives or get help.
I write when I feel like sharing some of what I have in my mind, not to change your yours. You’re welcome to participate in the discussion if you like, or refrain from participating if you like. It’s not about you.
Guru, you may want to read DiAngelo’s original paper from 2011 which I’ll post here (downloadable pdf). It’s an interesting read.
Hi Daniel, thank you for sending me the download. I did skim through it, but I think I should have been clearer about WHY I haven’t read DiAngelo’s work. .
Race topics are almost meaningless to me personally and my eyes glazed over when I scanned through the PDF.
Sorry for the misunderstanding on that.
Daniel,
I read the Newsweek article you linked and thought that a good part of what the Smithsonian African American Museum says seems true. The parts about “whiteness including ” being “no tolerance for deviation from a single god concept”, “rugged individualism”, “the protestant work ethic and aesthetics, and white privilege. This museum is just one voice and I wouldn’t give it that much importance.
I don’t feel that western culture and civilization are a risk or anything, however, and I think it’s good to question our assumptions. Colleges and universities are centers of liberalism and that isn’t likely to change. We have an ongoing culture war going on in this country, with the right and left taking more and more extreme positions, and because of that division, change is likely to be slow,
Phil
Daniel,
Are you aware of our college admission scandals. It’s about peoples buying and/or cheating their way into elite schools, using privilege and connection. Trump, the genius that he is, got into Wharton business school only because of an example of this corrupt process. I’m sure this kind of thing has been going on forever, so I wouldn’t worry that much about students having a lack of achievement, since many of them never had that to begin with in past years.
Phil
Jack,
I also hope you can keep sharing what you feel here.
there are many nice things about you I will always remember, like the first time you came up to me, when we were in front of the Pico institute and i was new, and you introduced yourself to me.
i was immediately struck by your eyes, they were beautiful, not only the colour but the straightness of your look and the sparkle they showed.
then there were many moments you suddenly were there to support me at retreats, and the hilarious time when before group you sat down in the therapists seats and silently impersonated them all so brilliantly, just by your expression and body language and cracked everyone up.
I also hope you will get better again and live for many more years happily together with Jim .
Margaret
Daniel, I think that your assertion that I am trying to shut down this conversation is a feeling. Each of us is, and always has been, free to write and react to each other (or not). No-one is shutting anyone down. Each of is just reacting to the other. That’s all. I think that your interpretation that I am somehow trying to “shut down” the conversation is part of your belief that I am a participant in some giant left-wing academic conspiracy that is intent on overthrowing and shutting down the whole western, civilized canon. Seen from this viewpoint, it makes sense that you would see my suggestion that you get help to look at your motives as somehow “violent”. Of course, from my viewpoint, the “violence” and the “shutting down” is actually top-down and not bottom-up. This is exactly what systemic racism/sexism etc. is all about at it roots, along with finding ways to divert attention away from that reality. Usually, this is accomplished by finding marginalized groups, and any allies of them, to blame. It’s why history keeps repeating itself. It just saddens and disappoints me that someone who identifies as Jewish, could uphold and espouse these beliefs. Considering the history of the Jews.
I was actually struck by your insightfulness when you said that you had “bizarre masochistic reasons”. And then you expanded on this insight, in the same paragraph, by acknowledging a preoccupation with what you called, “sweeping changes in academia”, and that this preoccupation was “a torture I picked all on my own”. I think this is likely very true and makes a lot of sense. It left me reflecting on whether this tendency could be connected to historical trauma. Not just personal trauma. It has left me reflecting on whether a tendency toward masochism and self-torture could be connected somehow to being Jewish. In other words, when violence, torture and suffering is no longer being imposed on us from the outside, do we do it to ourselves? I know I have had times in my life when I’ve chosen to put myself in situations where I would suffer and feel tormented. Usually, I’ve only thought in terms of what I’ve recreated from my childhood. But your comments have left me wondering if part of this behavior could be connected to historical trauma as well.
Jack, I hope you are feeling better but I wish you would take Sylvia’s advice and maybe do a phone call with your doctor. Of course I can’t know what’s going on with you but what if it’s a mild infection or maybe you need vitamin D or B after all you been inside like the rest of us for months. I just feel it’s worth checking. You could also have a mild case of the virus, there are lots of people who describe being exhausted or having headaches. It’s not always a serious situation with this virus and more often than not it isn’t. Anyway do take care of yourself! Keep us all posted on how you are feeling. Gretch
Gretchen: An addendum:- I never had much faith in doctors ever since spending two years of compulsory military service in the Royal Army Medical Corpse ; Then another years on the peripheral of the medical profession as a pupil ‘health inspector’
As for supplements, I take 7 each day and Jim is now looking others that might help.
I lost faith in the medical profession the moment they chose to NOT consider the Primal concept.
Meantime I had a buddy session with my buddy who gave me several areas to explore that I have done sInce.
Meantime,; thanks for your caring.
Jack
Jack, I understand what you mean. I don’t tend to go running to doctors either. Still sometimes it can be worth checking out things like low energy or exhaustion. I’m glad the time with your buddy was helpful. Sometimes a little support is the best medicine of all. Take care ! Gretch
Guru, I never meant to force you to read DiAngelo, and I hope it didn’t come across that way. As far as I’m concerned you can move it from the Download folder directly to the Recycle Bin.
—-
Phil,
Your example of corruption in admission shows exactly what is at stake. We call it “corrupt” because by circumventing the admission system it admits people who shouldn’t be there in the first place, people who do not need to show the aptitude that is required to successfully graduate. If you take what yesterday was considered corrupt and turn it into an official policy you will fill the institution with people who do not need to have the aptitude that is required to successfully graduate. Since once they’re admitted it will be impossible to not let them graduate the graduations standards will be lowered.
Absurdities are all around. Tuft/Fletcher school of Diplomacy (!!!) has dropped it’s requirement for a second language. You can read their explanation: it has become more of a barrier than an opportunity for students, including those with learning disabilities. I’m sure the US will benefit greatly from diplomats, state department officials and CIA operative who will rely on English alone. Most likely spoken loudly.
Colleges and universities may be centers of liberalism and you don’t seem concerned that something may hurt that. So, let me just leave you with a glimpse of what that liberalism may turn into. Northwestern U. law school had a town hall meeting online recently. Everybody began with a ritual denunciation of themselves as racist.
Aside from it being obvious that not all professors really believe that they are racist or wish to participate in that (one reader wrote: “Prof. Speta is not a racist. He is a wonderful man universally loved by students. It makes me sad that he is forced to say otherwise.”), does this look like liberalism to you? To me it looks pretty much like a Chinese struggle session, or, since I’m Jewish, those people who were forced by Nazis to carry signs they are “race defilers”. Not too long ago I wrote here on the blog how these ideas that on the face of it are innocent and about justice can become totalitarian. And they have. Sooner than I thought.
—-
Renée,
In saying “bizarre masochistic reasons”, or “a torture I picked all on my own”, I was being humorous and referred to the fact that it pains me to learn, but also sometimes makes me laugh, of what is going on.
I do feel your innocence is at times violent, but I promised you not to talk about my personal impressions of you. As an aside, I’ll just say that your portrayal of my views is far from accurate.
I do agree, though, that historical trauma plays a part in me, although being transmitted through generations it is obviously vague. I want to skip for now talking about parents who live through their children and concentrate of the Jewish experience as a whole.
Jews have suffered the harshest and deadliest slavery and racism to date. What happened to them in Europe in the 1930’s and 1940’s was a culmination of centuries of persecution, deportations, expulsions, pogroms, and other humiliations. What do you know of their reaction to all these? Do you think anything can be learned from their reactions? What did Jews demand from and what are the differences from the current racial crisis and demands?
Daniel: In all seriousness:- what makes you Jewish?
Repeat:- My being in on my two Jewish American Jews. “What is all this about being Jewish?”
At birth you had no idea what or who you were, just needing and needing mommy … something happened meantime … what was that?
Gays also have been humiliated and put in concentration camps also. It is in the Jewish scriptures that man laying with man is the greatest of sins … Leviticus & Dueterominy.
Why do Jews need their very own country (state)? The answer to that question alone, bring up more of all this separating our selves from one another.
In the final analysis I am not anything other than myself … and that’s been my preoccupation for almost 40 years now … Not British, not Christian, and within the very strict meaning of the word ‘gay’ … anything but perpetually joyous.
Something went totally wrong some 20 – 30 millennium ago … we lost out ability to feel and express them, simply and naturally.
Last point:- being antiemetic, does answer it either … the Palestinians are Semites also.
Jack
“A radical minority is dictating non-western values to the most important country in the western world….once they’re admitted it will be impossible to not let them graduate the graduations standards will be lowered……Jews have suffered the harshest and deadliest slavery and racism to date…… What did Jews demand from and what are the differences from the current racial crisis and demands?” I never thought I’d say this but I’m starting to miss the raw, in-your-face, no-holds-barred prejudice and racial antisemitism of Patrick! This intellectualized, sophisticated and nuanced version of anti-black and brown racism is exhausting, obfuscating, and way more dangerous, IMO. Looking down on “thems who are lowering our ‘standards’” and “dictating non-western values”, comparing oppressions, and pitting oppressed groups against each other are all destructive and harmful. Remember Audre Lorde’s famous statement, “The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”? Well, these are all well-used tools of the master to maintain the status-quo. Or, to use primal language, tools that perpetuate neurosis and the disconnects between us.
There is nothing really “obfuscating” about the sentences of mine you quoted. On the contrary, I thought I explained them and the rationale behind them rather clearly. Nor are they racist by any means. Perhaps you care to explain the racism in them? None of the sentences even include specific reference to black or brown people (I did mention lowering standards for students with learning disabilities).
In a way, I think it is exactly those two – the clarity and lack of racism – that drive you mad and make you pine for Patrick.
Exactly! You answered your own question. Right after you asked it. Obfuscation in a nutshell. That said, and in the name of laughter being the best medicine, take a listen to this comedian describing the difference between British and American racism: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r7IJ064UXsA. (Why Gina Yashere Prefers American Racism.) Funny stuff!!
Daniel,
In the end graduates of universities have to prove themselves in the job market, in the real world, and a lot of learning also takes place at that time too. I don’t know much about diplomacy, maybe graduates of that school can get hired only speaking English, I have no idea.
I’m just not triggered or alarmed about the implications and consequences of the BLM movement, other than I hope it stays peaceful, and that reasonable goals can be achieved.
What does worry me these days is Trump and his movement. Trump is trying to undermine our democracy and looks like he will do anything to stay in power. I don’t know that the country in it’s current form can survive another four years with him as president. There is a lot of fear he won’t step down even if he loses. I’m afraid I’m not looking kindly with understanding towards his supporters. So for me, other than my personal situation which is OK, that is kind of superseding other questions and concerns with the election coming in 2 months.
Phil
And I’m concerned of course about Covid and the economy. I hope that good solutions for the virus will come out soon, although I don’t want that to benefit Trump. So many people have died, it’s terrible, and we are all being negatively effected, one way or another. My younger son just graduated in May and can’t find a good job in the current environment. He could always come back and live with us, but that isn’t what he wants, and I can understand it wouldn’t be exciting or fulfilling for him.
Phil
Jeezus effing Christ, dog whistles are getting loud these days! My ears were ringing after reading about the Northwestern Law School’s recent online town hall event on racism. Northwestern is an ultra-conservative institution. It’s current interim Dean, James Speta, is a member of the Federalist Society, an organization of conservatives and libertarians. (See this recent article to get a sense of their shenanigans: https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/opinion/trump-judges-federalist-society.html). Is it any surprise, then, that this institution has put itself forward as a contender to lead the backlash against the movement of white people educating ourselves, and standing up to, the horrors and violence of systemic racism? I have been wondering what this backlash would look like. Now we have an example. The town hall meeting was designed and executed to portray white peoples’ consciousness-raising as a grotesque variation of an AA meeting at best and a return to Communist style re-education camps at worst. This is fearmongering taken to a perverse extreme. Sadly, it is perfectly in line with Fox News and right-wing tactics. With Trump sorely lagging in the polls, I predict we will be hearing more of these dog whistles as the election get closer. Be prepared.
VERY HARD TO HAVE TO HAVE MY DOG PUT TO SLEEP. SHE IS ALMOST THERE. I AM NOT THERE. THIS WILL BE MORE PAINFUL THAN DYING MYSELF.
Otto: that’s completely understandable.
Jack
Otto, I have just sent you an email so please check. Gretch
Thanks Gretchen. Thanks Jack.
i just have this really strong feeling of loneliness. wishing i was still at group 10 hours later. I guess it’s my ‘losing my mom’ thing. can’t do much with the feeling except …except what? embrace it? don’t run away from it? no idea. i will keep listening to this lady who probably reminds me of my mom. Emmylou Harris- “I’ll Be Your Baby Tonight” LIVE 1970 [Reelin’ In The Years Archives]. Gretchen, i wanted to say in group today that i missed going to your sunday groups. lots of female energy, for what its worth, and some of my favorite guys who don’t come to zoom much or at all. and of course, you leading the group.. but how was i going to say a word back then, in all that energy? ok
Jack,
I’m happy to see you’re up and about.
All your important questions (why remain Jewish, why Jews need a country of their own) have been discussed in blog before so I won’t go into them again other than saying that whether I like it or not I’m being considered as part of that group of people. The Spaniards of the inquisition or Hitler’s Germans didn’t care if I decided I was not Jewish – they would still categorised me that way.
Once people form as groups, organise themselves as a society, it actually makes evolutionary sense to define who is of us and who is not.
But let me ask you something else, a personal question which of course you are under no obligation to answer. You mentioned your mommy and you mention her quite a bit in your comments. Like many therapists who work with homosexual patients, I too noticed how often they are preoccupied with their mothers, who are described in various ways but perhaps mostly as personally absorbing, or domineering, or supplying a compassionate refuge from a distant father.
Psychologically speaking, what do you feel is the maternal contribution, if any, to homosexuality?
Daniel: The last part of your question is the one I feel most relevant to reply to.
Most Homosexuals claim they were born this way, and there is a good reason for it, by my reckoning I feel strongly that it is trauma in utero that creates the basis of homosexuality.
Not all gay people agree with me … in fact very few. It is not NORMAL. Most gays think it is
However, the so called cure is both cruel and never complete Depending on what transpires thereafter, will depend in the scale between fully homosexual:- to being bi-sexual.
On the earlier points you mentioned … my ‘mantra’ is:- Neurosis came first … then from there-on-in, transpires our current fucked-up humanity. Starting with Religion by way of totem poles, all the way to Abraham. For me it has no redeeming features … it is here, I feel, we (you and I) part company
As with the Primal notion,, the whole system needs tearing down … the young of a very near future generation will understand it; and after a period of creation of a ‘critical mass’… it will all fall apart
No- one seems to see it … except the few anarchist, but the way back is the is the ultimate destruction of what is:- for humanity.
The ‘repeats’ are for emphasis.
Jack
Thanks for answering my question, Jack. Would you agree that gay men tend to be preoccupied with their mothers?
Daniel: No NO & N O.. My partner definitely isn’t.
Jack
Daniel: I did not respond to your first line:-:-“Jack, I’m happy to see you’re up and about”.
Yes, I’m still up, but the feeling of exhaustion is with me more than ever.
We’ve tried several fixes, but none seem to ‘bear fruit’… so far..
Jim, my partner, suggested that I go to a nursing home; to which I replied:- “I am already in one , with a single staff member … who can be an awkward bugger sometimes.
Jack
Daniel: I did not respond to your first line:-:-“Jack, I’m happy to see you’re up and about”.
Yes, I’m still up, but the feeling of exhaustion is with me more than ever.
We’ve tried several fixes, but none seem to ‘bear fruit’… so far..
Jim, my partner, suggested that I go to a nursing home; to which I replied:- “I am already in one , with a single staff member … who can be an awkward bugger sometimes.
Jack
I’m glad that you’ve still got some life left in you, Jack. And I’m glad that you are using that life to maintain your sense of humor! 😀 It’s the best medicine, after all.
Renee: Thanks
Jack
Jack, “go into a nursing home,” really? I think it would be easier to go for a few tests. You may just need supplements or have an infection. Anemia can cause exhaustion. It may be something simple. As we age we lose some ability to make those red blood cells. Sometimes iron pills aren’t enough either. Don’t be stubborn, okay? Do something about this. Take care, Jack.
Sylvia: Being the stubborn bugger I am … I will not make matters worse for myself by going to attend a strange place with doctors I have almost no faith in’
Why are we trying to save those that have done their time? Move over ‘buster’ … let the young take over,
Jack
Okay, Jack, I hear you. Dealing with the medical institutions is no fun and taxing. I hope you can eat well and enjoy the warm days. Thinking of you.
Silvia:- Thanks.
Jack
Jack,I feel sad to hear of your condition of persistent low energy and even sadder that you could be dying. I think that you and SuperstarGuru were the first two people on the blog when with some trepidation I joined it early in its birth. In the beginning I had contentious interactions with you, which I learned about myself from, and after a few years I realized you have a good heart (which you denied), and I was eventually touched by your support and encouragement for me which sometimes brought me to feelings. For me, you are a fixture of the blog and it makes me sad to imagine you no longer being here. The older I get though, the more conscious I am that every life and eventually mine comes to an end.
But your life isn’t over yet Jack. You are still here to care for yourself and your loved ones as best you can. Doctors or naturopaths might have insights that might improve your quality of life. If these truly are your last days, hospice care coming to your home would improve quality of life for both you and Jim in this final stage of your time together. You say Jim is the single staff member in the nursing home your are in. I’m sure he would welcome some help in caring for you. If these are your final days, there are ways to plan the endgame so that it is a best quality experience for you both, not a nightmare for Jim to have for the rest of his life.
Daniel, psychologically speaking, what do you feel is the maternal contribution, if any, to heterosexuality? Would you agree that straight men tend to be preoccupied with their mothers?
Some straight men in therapy are preoccupied with either parent. Homosexual men in therapy tend, on average, to be preoccupied with the mother alone.
Daniel: this is the problem with dealing with it from statistics alone. Trauma is the main fuctionary of it it all ……… from my experience.
Jack
Jack,
I wasn’t approaching the issue “statistically”. Over years of working with people I thought I noticed a pattern where my homosexual male patients were rather more preoccupied with their mothers. With some it felt like they were trapped inside her. Quite often it would be closely linked to the intense states of mind and corresponding physical theatres particular to cruising for sex, where scenes of looking for love on the one hand and a complete erasure of the self on the other were simultaneously acted out.
Daniel: You say:- “Over years of working with people I thought I noticed a pattern where my homosexual male patients were rather more preoccupied with their mothers.”
The operrative words …”you’ve noticed a pattern” … That is not what I have experienced.
Jack
Got it. Thanks, Jack
What evidence do you have for this assertion? Perhaps it could be more accurate to say that homosexual men in therapy with you tend, on average, to be preoccupied with the mother alone? Take a look at this for an alternate viewpoint: https://www.psychologytoday.com/ca/blog/gay-and-lesbian-well-being/201009/gay-men-and-their-fathers-hurt-and-healing
Renée,
You’re so busy angrily disputing what I have to say you are completely oblivious to the fact that the article you linked to doesn’t include even a single “alternate view”.
*Adorning his shiny White Western Male Marauders gang leather jacket, arrogantly blowing his masculine blue bubble gum and pointing a mocking finger at Renee*
“Haha, Daniel TOASTED you with that one. PWNED! BOOYAH!”
Speaking of which, the White Western Male Marauders’ acronym ‘WWMM’ would carry tons of potential in terms of artwork logo design. WWMM being opposing reflections, smooth continuous neon style lettering, all kinds of creative potential for a nascent gang.
OK! OK! Hours of merciless blog silence is too discomforting. It was just poking fun at identity politics. Fuhgeddabout it!!
Ugg, I don’t mean to pop your masculine blue bubble gum or stop your imagination from creating fascinating stories about marauders, leather jackets and mocking fingers, but “it’s all in your head”, as they say.
Daniel believes that I am “angrily disputing” him and that I am “oblivious to the fact that the article I linked to doesn’t include a single ‘alternate view’”. It is his right to believe this, even though both assertions are inaccurate, IMO. I disagree with much of what Daniel says, including this. I posted the link to attempt to show that I think he has a very narrow view of what he is attempting to describe as gay male “patterns” in therapy.
I actually think it is ridiculous for Daniel to present himself as an authority of behavior/ psychology/patterns/ tendencies of gay males in therapy. And to do this by presenting a stereotypical cliché, no less! I’m glad that Jack was able to comment on Daniel’s assertion and cast doubt on it. So no, Daniel didn’t “TOAST” me. And the only “PWNED! BOOYAH!” that happened was in your head.
Renee, I didn’t catch this post you made in time, sorry. I probably shouldn’t have made my biker gang joke when I did, for you were going over the homosexual topic with Daniel when I was sarcastically responding to how you sometimes seem to lump the white western male into a negative stereotype. Obviously you’re on a wholly different topic at this time, and I should have refrained from introducing my delayed response to what you’ve discussed months or years ago
I don’t have much in the way of good feedback to offer on the homosexual topic, except to say I was a bit taken aback by Jack’s astonishing opinions on it, namely homosexuality being unnatural. I admit being seduced myself by this train of thought where being gay is a mental illness even though it’s been widely discredited long ago.
It seems as though I will have to dispense with subtleties from here on out. Many people on the blog don’t seem to pick up on them, and not through any fault of their own.
A small cultural white male glossary:
PWNED is what the younger white male set would use as a term for someone who has been defeated, often in a verbal discourse
BOOYAH! is a celebratory term used by Jim Cramer on his CNBC “Mad Money” show. It’s deeply rooted in the white affluent male province of stock ownership in America.
Anyway, I was using those terms sarcastically to flesh out an image of the insufferable white male exerting dominance over others as Renee has portrayed in the past.
I see now I packed WAY too many cultural references and wrongly assumed the reader would have a sufficient grasp of my sarcasm as well.
Let me just offer the blog one big fat, “Never mind, this won’t happen again!”
NO! Please keep it up. It’s funny and intelligent and adds much unique (and needed) color to the blog.
Renée, misrepresenting and casting me yet once again as the villain you so need me to be will give you only a very brief respite.
Daniel: If you feel Renee is casting you as a villain … that is your feeling … not necessarily her’s.
It might help to say so.
Just a suggestion … that is all.
Jack
Jack,
Please assume everything I say is my own opinion/feeling/thought/impression. It sort of goes without saying and would be tedious to keep mentioning each and every time. Conversely, if I were to present another blog participant’s opinion or feeling I would certainly have to and will mention that the opinion or feeling is not mine but that participant’s.
Daniel: I personally always make a point of saying “my feeling2, “my opinion”, “my contention”; such, that I avoid being seen as some expert on something … I am not.
I doubt any phrase I mentioned about would e tedious … just MY FEELING.
Jack
😊
Otto, You did great in group and I’m glad you are there. It is true that with Barry and I leading the group together we have ended up with an equal number of males to females so maybe a little less “ feminine energy”. Of course I’m wondering who you are missing as it seems pretty much everyone is there but whoever it is maybe you can let them know. I am just so grateful that we have all had this opportunity to meet weekly. I will see you next Sunday ! Gretch
This morning I feel like I’m coming closer to feeling the full nothingness of my childhood. Just no one there for me. Oh, a little here and there, which didn’t amount to anything. Also, somehow related to having to go to work after a nice long Labor Day Weekend. I feel like I can hardly do this anymore. It’s just so hard. No caffeine either. I’m caffeine free for several years because it gives me acid. For years my energy was based on that, and now I can’t have it.
Phil
Otto,
you and your dog are on my mind a lot today.
remember she must always have been aware how much you love her which must have made her a very happy dog…
Phil, that must be hard, to have to go without caffeine while having to push yourself every day.
and ginseng or similar stimulating drinks are probably not good for the stomach either, isn’t it?
Labor day indeed…
M
Margaret,
Unfortunately I’ve developed an extreme sensitivity to caffeine. I just can’t drink it, I get a reaction which can feel like a heart attack. I drink special decaffeinated coffee which is 99% caffeine free. Maybe I get some psychological boost from that, but otherwise I’ve found no adequate substitute. Nowadays it’s hard to imagine how I did all those things I did in past years. Like all the things I did for my kids. I coached their soccer teams even when I was exhausted, for example. Luckily, they’re grown up now and don’t need much from me.
Phil
Phil
Apparently the wildfires are so bad now in California that the sky is quite literally an orange fireball color in San Francisco and throughout parts of Oregon.
Anyone on the West Coast with interesting reports to share on this? California residents have been quiet about this on the blog, and this would seem quite traumatic to witness overall. At the rate this is going there won’t be much foilage left to burn in the state. At least there are fewer deaths than the Camp Fire of 2018…at least so far.
https://twitter.com/mithrilmaker/status/1303715600963792896?s=20
Is this God’s (or a staggeringly advanced computer simulation from millions of years from now’s) way of wreaking vengeance on California liberals since much of the state hates Trump and their skies are now the same color as Trump’s eponymous orange hair?
Meh, probably not.
Guru, I think God or the Universe, according to one’s beliefs is more upset with trump than with the liberals of CA. Karma, I feel, is waiting for Mr. orange.
Yes, the sky here in N. CA is orange too, just about 50 miles north of the Bear fire in Butte county. Ash is laying on car surfaces, pet dishes squash plant leaves. Winds were terrible yesterday and last night that swept the fires, probably all over the state, I imagine. My neighbor said she could see flumes of fire shooting in the sky over Oroville on her way back from town on the freeway. Poor Oroville having to evacuate in places. They had a catastrophe a few yrs. back too with the dam spillway giving way when many evacuated from there.
I am watching the winds and acreage behind us in this neighborhood where dry grass grows that has caught fire in the yrs. before. I suppose I won’t mind a truck stop development going in after all, eventually. Such is life. Y’all take care in Southern CA too. Thanks for asking about us, Guru.
S
Sylvia, do you think you might have to evacuate? Do you have plans in place for all your cats and the dog? It might also be a great time to have a “go bag” with all your extremely important items (documents, survival stuff) packed in it in case of emergency if winds fiercely blow a fire your way.
By the way, I should point out…on a completely separate note…that, yes, the computer simulation argument as put forth by Bostrom and Musk have fascinated the hell out of me, particularly since it’s also quite compatible with a naturalistic worldview as espoused by Thomas Clark.
My point with all this is when Sylvia brought up Karma for the Orange One. I won’t argue for or against the existence of Karma, but I did want to emphasize that the simulation argument for the universe still holds quite well even if Karma does not exist AT ALL (pure materialism where the universe doesn’t give a damn and will never intervene in anyway). Karma is not needed for us to be in any sort of incomprehensibly advanced computer simulation.
I just wanted to mention this before I forgot, thanks.
The fire topic with Sylvia and possible evacuations are obviously more pressing for today.
It’s being said that 2 MILLION acres of vegetation have burned so far this year in California. At 640 acres per square mile California is likely going to easily exceed 4,000 square miles of foilage burned in the state this year. This number has potential to go MUCH higher since it’s still early in wildfire season, ouch!
California is about 164,000 square miles in size.
4,000 square miles burned is 2.5% of the ENTIRE STATE ON FIRE.
Simultaneously amazing and terrible. No wonder the skies are orange!
I do have a few bags ready to put in the car if a possible grass fire cannot be contained by water hoses. The fire engines are prob all at big fires now so we are ready as we can be.
I think Karma is really, if a down-to-earth view is taken: “When your chickens come home to roost,” or “you’ve made your bed, now lie in it,” as the sayings go. In other words, trump has a lot to answer for. He will get his just deserts.
I don’t know if Elon Musk is just dissociating. He says sometimes this all doesn’t seem real. I know he said he had a terrible childhood and that his dad beat him. Maybe if he had primal therapy he wouldn’t have these strange ideas and just face what happened to him growing up. He seems hyper to me.
I saw a post from a therapist formerly at the PI. On the “Being Human Podcast” Richard Atherton interviews Theresa Sheppard Alexander, author of, “Facing the Wolf.”
Thank-you, Sylvia! I didn’t even know there were any videos with Tracy. I knew of her, and people in P.T. who knew her, many years ago, but she was in New York, and I never met her. I think I just saw her briefly, at the Open House they had at the Institute, a few months after they moved from Almont in West Hollywood to Colby in West L.A. Sylvia, have you read her book, “Facing the Wolf”?
Hi, Vicki, yes I read her book a few years ago, but I want to re-read it, as my thinking is more clear after having had more feelings processed, and I appreciate the primal literature more now. I think she is great and such a good communicator.
I finally finished watching the long interview — How did you come across it, Sylvia?
Late on the video, the interviewer, Richard, asks her about how her “Deep Feeling therapy” is different from “Primal Therapy”, and she talks about the use of “transference”, which Art disavowed originally — and after becoming a Primal Therapist, she came to disagree with Art’s view that homosexuality is neurosis. But she said she didn’t know if Art’s position had shifted over the many years since. Richard also mentions he did his therapy at Art’s Training Center.
In the old days, I heard the term “symbolizing” instead of transference, but I have heard Gretchen say that their view of the importance of transference has changed, and my own experience of PT in the late ’70’s was quite different from what I found when I returned in the mid ’90’s. The P.I. also long since moved away from Art’s views on homosexuality. I heard Gretchen say that they never agreed with Art about that. At any rate, “Deep Feeling therapy” sounds the same as “Primal Therapy”, in practice. When “Facing the Wolf” was first published in 1996, copies of her book were available for sale in the lobby, for quite awhile.
I’ve thought that book, “Facing the Wolf”, to be one of the best ones on primal therapy. Phil
Hi Vicki. It’s great that the Tracee Sheppard Alexander interview brought back such good memories for you, Phil and Margaret. I’d read about her in the PI Newsletter or Journals when they first came out. I’ve been watching Richard Atherton’s podcasts since before he interviewed France Janov by phone a few months ago. He himself is still a patient, though long distance from the UK, at the Primal Center. He has another podcast talking about his own problems and subsequent awakening to the primal process, he made about a year ago.
I think from what I have heard that Tracee’s deep feeling approach toward therapy is in align with what Dr. Janov at the Center practiced, concerning homosexuality I saw a video on a sexuality discussion from the Center that implied they did not think homosexuality was anything to be cured. Some patients had changed their preference back to heterosexual after therapy and some stayed with the homosexual preference. Whatever anyone chose was fine, it seemed. There was a belief, though, that if the hormones were affected in utero, that the change would most likely not happen, (homosexual to heterosexual), as compared to a second line or third line influence where there was a change sometimes. Another video talk that France Janov gave implied that genetics could be involved also in the determination of homosexuality. Interesting stuff, at any rate.
Sylvia, when I started therapy at the New York Institute Tracee was co-director there, not my therapist, but I remember her well. I didn’t finish watching this but it brought up feelings about what went on in my therapy at that time, so long ago. My feelings started to be opened up, a process that’s continued ever since, but I had so much trouble talking about things and saying what I wanted. It’s hard to be helped if you can’t talk about it. I was just so bottled up. Tracee did my intake interview, as I remember, and I was just so scared.
Phil
Thanks for sharing this podcast, Sylvia. I read Facing the Wolf when it came out in 1996 and found it really meaningful. While I agree with everything she says here, I particularly liked hearing her comments on the connections between old feelings/acting-out and political activism. I thought she responded really well to the white interviewer seeing political activism as simply an act-out. To me, this is a symptom of white privilege. You can hear this part from around min. 59 -1:05. I think she reinforces how inextricably the personal and the political are linked. It also reminded me of how remembering in therapy my own suffering in the system of my family allowed me to become more compassionate toward people suffering in other systems as well.
Renee, I thought what she actually said was that anything could be an act-out, depending on the individual. So, being an activist could being an act-out, as could be being a passive non-activist.
Phil
That’s right, Phil. But that is not all she is saying. I think that the more we are beneficiaries of this system (due to our gender, race, class, sexual orientation, physical abilities etc.), the harder it can be to see the other part of what she is saying: “The growth of awareness of feelings, emotions, depth of human experience…..can mean having a greater compassion for other peoples’ suffering and….solidarity with people who are being badly treated.”
Renee, through therapy we become more aware of our feelings, have greater access to them and can have greater compassion for people’s suffering. I certainly agree with that. I thought this interview was mostly for a general audience and the content was stuff that we already know, except in the ways Tracee’s “deep feeling therapy” differs from primal therapy. I already knew that too having read the book many years ago, and while it’s still relevant, I hope some new volumes on primal type therapy will be coming out.
Phil
If “the personal and the political” are inextricably linked, then the personal “compassion for other peoples’ suffering and… solidarity with those who are being badly treated”, are politically determined and so selectively felt.
Yes, that’s what I like about her. She is challenging the dominant perspective that you are presenting, which is the view that the personal can only be politically determined and selectively felt, which keeps people divided. She is, in my opinion, overlaying a social justice perspective that understands the pain caused by, what she calls “systemic aggression”, with a therapeutic/primal perspective, to inspire and create a more humane and compassionate politics. Totally awesome, radical and subversive, if you ask me!
You tend to look at systemic aggression through the lens of “COPS! COPS! COPS!” with their batons and gunfire, whereas I see systemic aggression through the lens of “CARS! CARS! CARS!” with multi-ton hunks of metal and glass smashing and pulverizing human bodies at high speeds.
Happy to see that Traci seems to be thriving. I was the the P.I. on Almont when she and Curtis Knect got married. I always liked them both a lot. Even went to their wedding at someone’s home over in The Valley, I think. Before they were an item, she, Starr May, Jean Landswerk, and I and a few others of us took a ski trip to Mammoth even. The wedding was a pretty quiet affair, as I recall, but there were some interesting folks present, e.g., Vivian Janov, (sans Arthur) actor Kenneth Mars, actor Bob Mandan, Theresa Wright, the actress, who was dating Leslie Pam at the time, Mr. & Mrs. Michael Holden, and of course Gretchen, who I think was dating Nick Barton at the time, but I could be wrong. I have some interesting photos that I will cherish for a long time to come. Well, however much longer I live. After all, I AM 79 now (LOL). May not have to cherish them for very much longer.
Sylvia,
thanks for posting that link, it was a long but interesting interview.
it made me teary, being reminded of my own intensive and breakthrough to an unexpected feeling which opened up the gates to my almost forgotten childhood self.
after the feeling it felt euphoric to have found myself again like finding a long lost and almost forgotten best friend.
of course then the work only started to peel off the layers of defense, but that breakthrough had the great quality of making me trust the primal process since then.
M
I don’t want to greedily and self-indulgently draw any attention to myself beyond simply saying I watched the interview from beginning to end. It was enjoyable to watch and I wish a little bit of time was spent exploring the validity of self-therapy for lost souls ‘out in the wild’. I had heard of Theresa’s book decades ago though I had never read it, only reading some of Alice Miller’s books instead.
Perhaps because of the fact I never came around to reading Theresa’s book, I had been under the mistaken impression that she left the Institute simply as a renegade patient rather than a high-ranking supervisor.
I did feel a twinge of disappointment that the interview had to end, if you can believe that!
The interview did do a good job addressing a person’s fears that s/he will completely fall apart and not function if s/he stays in place rather than offering excuses of having all sorts of little errands to do “bye gotta run!”. The idea being that, once the feeling no matter how terrible, was addressed it would leave the person with ‘more of himself/herself’ to manage the situation afterwards.
To put this more succinctly, people commonly underestimate the power of incremental healing and our inherent flexibility as humans. Theresa was right that even in the deepest sobbing fit, you can really stop in an emergency.
I like Tracee Sheppard Alexander, she has a “therapeutic personality” where warmth, emotional intelligence, and a sense of trustworthiness about her combine to make one feel it possible to talk with and open up to her. From all she said I’d like to add something to the idea of transference.
Transference not only repeats the patient’s feelings and modes of relating as a subject, as he or she felt as a child in a relationship with a significant other. Transference is not only a simple continuation of the role one had as a child – although many times it is also that. Since it’s the entire mode of relating that is being internalised in childhood, the patient may in the transference (and in life) become the object: the seducing father, the explosive mother, the bullying brother, the condescending and triumphant sister, etc. One of the more difficult revelations people have in their therapy is how similar they are at times in their feelings, actions and modes of relationship to their parents, especially to a parent whose feelings, impulses and modes of relationship one spent many years disavowing.
At other times patients experience a sense of liberation when discovering that some of what they feel, some of their states of mind, are not theirs to begin with. Their hypochondria, depression, a perennial sense of loss, the specifics of an anxiety, the vehemence, the difficulties in thinking, although truly experienced by them, actually belongs to their parents or siblings.
Daniel: I also read those books, ,but got the sneeky feeing they were doing a ‘one-upmanship on Primal discovery and Primal theory.
Jacj:
Jack, I’m hearing that you’re not doing well, that your health is declining. I’m rooting for you to recover. Keep in mind, it may be possible, despite how you’re feeling right now. Don’t give up!
Phil
I am amazed at how Jack was able to still post here on the blog only a mere five days before his passing, a remarkable testament to his indomitable spirit.
Well, well, well…
Even I, as Humanity’s Supremely Insufferable Superstar Guru, must profess to scant moments of sheer ignorance.
I do my best to correct such mishaps.
In my discussions with Sylvia earlier, I expressed alarm and dismay at almost 3% of the entire state of California being on fire.
At the time I assumed it would be a naturally correctable condition to where the goal is stopping all fires as much as possible.
Little did I understand the idea of ‘natural fuel buildup’, where concerted firefighting efforts only makes the inevitable worse due to excess natural vegetative fuel buildup over many years.
From the highly respected nonprofit news site ProPublica: “We live with a deathly backlog (of burnable vegetation fuel). In February 2020, Nature Sustainability published this terrifying conclusion: California would need to burn 20 million acres — an area about the size of Maine — to restabilize in terms of fire.”
Ouch! Looks like this will become a lot worse before it stabilizes:
https://www.propublica.org/article/they-know-how-to-prevent-megafires-why-wont-anybody-listen
If the smoke becomes too dense, we can start to consider moving mini-retreats and groups to my old house which is far away from those fires. The air quality is “green” here.
(My post was not designed to steal attention from Daniel. We were unknowingly typing our posts out almost simultaneously…five minutes apart)
Hey, you can steal attention from me any day.
The orange tinted images from Ca. look like the end of the world and are both frightening and mesmerising.
Wow, Renée, you’re really confused here, again attributing some of your thoughts and attitudes to me.
—
Jack, which books are you referring to that are doing ‘one-upmanship’ on PT?
i am scared shitless about my dog. sinking feeling in my stomach. old feeling yes, but also reality. trying to fight off the paralysis. scared to even post this. happy motherf’ing monday.
Otto,
how are you?
M and cats
Otto,
of course my question was how are you, typo, as you clearly understood.
and my heart goes out to you.
when I had to say goodbye from my former cat, it was so painful, and at the same time an intense feeling of tenderness and closeness with her, holding her and talking to her all the way through, doing all I could to make her feel loved and safe.
I asked the vet to put opiates in the cocktail to make sure she would drift off feeling at ease…
but it triggered the most painful feelings I have ever had, exactly what you say, both old feeling and present deep pain and sadness.
I cried and cried for weeks in a row
it helped me to think of all that grief being part of all the love between that cat and me, and at some point it really felt as if she had installed herself permanently safely and comfortably in my heart, it really felt that way and felt like she was curling up there liking to be there.
it felt like all the crying had led her into that safe place.
this probably does not help you at all right now, but maybe at some point it can do so just a little bit.
you are a very caring and loving person and I am completely certain your dog is feeling all that love and care since the day she started living with you.
and she is in good hands from you and your wife to start her last journey to stay forever in your heart.
I am getting teary myself here, xx,
Margaret and Pluche and Plukkie and Molimet my former cat.
thanks margaret. you are making me cry. i needs to be steel at this point, to do this gruesome deed. i will ask about opiate.. z finally said let her go, even though she keeps saying that sophie is still alert and alive. . i don’t want to let her go. plus, if after the vet examines her today, as to whether she is suffering or drowning from chf or not, i might only have the choice of abandoning her at my car, since the clinic doesnt let people in because of covid. i am also talking to the vet who can come to our house. thanks for the comfort. this will be the scream heard round the world.
Jack, It is definitely a Jack love fest around the Primal Institute. Everyone’s worried and concerned about your health ( I do think Chris may be right about dehydration with the heat you have had so drink some smart water please). We are all thinking of you and hoping you will be feeling better soon! Gretch
Does anybody have a direct line to Jack and knows what’s going on with him?
I have to say I am starting to feel really bad about my post to Jack from early this month expressing anger and skepticism that he might really be having serious difficulty.
I was too blinded by anger at past grievances to let enough compassion come through, so for what it’s worth (even if my input means nothing) I am starting to feel terrible about that.
Although I knew Jack is old, and don’t know Jack as well as you do, I too had inside me a similar reaction to yours. We’ll just have to live with that little bit of mean (even if earned) incredulity and hope Jack is ok or will pull through.
Otto, If you need the name of a vet that comes to your home I can give you my vets number. He was very kind and sensitive. Your pup is so lucky to have had a home where he was so thoroughly loved . Gretch
Margaret, That was such a caring thing to have written to Otto. Really beautifully said. Gretch
Jack, since everyone seems really serious about what’s going on with you now, so I will urgently set aside whatever misgivings and rancor I have had towards you from the past to wish you a speedy recovery if at all possible.
Eat as much healthy nutrient-dense foods as you can…beans and vegetables are good. Try to exercise your body in small ways even if it’s difficult. Any activity is better than a standstill.
Best of luck.
Larry,
that was such a nice comment you wrote to Jack.
M
I just had a cry, being reminded of how painful it was to have to say goodbye from my cat, to lose her and to let her die.
more and more I am aware of how unacceptable it feels to me there is suffering and dying in this world, I don’t want that for anything, not even microbes should have to suffer if it were my own creation…
nothing and nobody would have to die, I remember as a small kid talking about dying with my mom, who was severely ill several times and the feeling was we might have to do without her at some point.
once when she was very ill in bed, she told my brother and me we should take good care of each other in case she would die.
i remember my brother and me peeking through the keyhole when the doctor was there with her, and she looked so pale I was literally struck by panic, all I could do was look at my brother in silent terror.
she made it but I remember talking with her about how hard it would be if she would die before me, and how hard it would be for her if I would go first, so I decided if ever we would have to die, it should happen simultaneously…
guess my struggle with the dying concept is connected to that as well…
yet getting older there is no way around it, as the number of times having been confronted with it just keeps increasing.
on the other hand, when i was severely ill myself, the idea of my own death did not feel scary, but more as the appeal a bed has when one feels very tired.
and now I have the good example of my mom who keeps squeezing all the fun she can out of life still, approaching her 90th birthday in November.
she loves all living creatures to, and is happiest in the middle of nature , animals and loved ones.
seems caring as much as we can is the only option…
M
Dying.
Sucks.
Gretchen,
thanks, it feels painful to really let that in…
guess I am too used to feeling bad about myself still…
M
ISN’T LIFE GRAND WHEN YOU ARE 110 YEARS OLD. YOU HOBBLE, but you still love to smell raccoon scents and to see people walking and machines cutting grass, and chase the cats away from your food. and eat, if your doctor gives you appetite pills. in other words, this dog is still ok with being on planet earth as an animate object, for however many hours or days ahead. but i feel like i am 202 years old.
Otto,
ha, that is good news really, it is nice to hear your dog is still interested in the world around her, and chasing the cats away from her food when necessary!
but I also understand this emotional roller coaster must be exhausting for you.
i wish you many more nice moments together, and hope you have enough time to rest when you need it.
M
Hi Everyone,
Yesterday Jack was admitted to the hospital. After tests were done, doctors advised that there was nothing more they could do for him. His body shows multiple signs of shutting down and the doctors said that he had days rather than weeks to live. Jack then expressed his wish to die at home, and subsequently was released. He is taken care of by home medical visits and Jim, his partner. At this point, he is given liquid morphine to keep him pain free and comfortable. Jim is at his side and is taking good care of him. He just let me know that Jack had a good night and is asking for a “fizzy drink” (sparkling mineral water) which he can drink through a straw. We are heart broken and very sad. We hope that Jack’s last days are comfortable, peaceful, and pain free.
Thank you for letting us know this. My thoughts are with you and Jack and all of his family. Take care at this difficult time. Jack is one of a kind. Peace be with you all.
That is sad news, but good to know that Jack is being cared for and comforted. Thanks Bernadette.
Wow! I am sorry to hear this, Bernadette, and glad you let us know. I had gotten used to Jack “living forever”, as he had seemingly done each day he came here. I am sad he is “sailing away” or “leaving us”, he has definitely been a one of a kind guy, and I’ll miss his presence, as well as those times he made me laugh. I hope his final days are calm.
Bernadette, good to hear from you, but so sorry its on such a sad note. Its a relief to hear that Jack has medication now, and palliative care, and will be as comfortable as possible. Feeling for you.
Jo XO
Bernadette, I’m very sorry to hear this about Jack. If true, I hope he can be comfortable and pain free in his last days. I hope you and all his family make it through this difficult time as best as possible.
Phil
I’m sorry and sad to hear of Jack’s condition as well. I had mistakenly expected him to be here forever, so I am a bit too stunned to express any helpful sentiments in a better way.
it is good to know there is support now, both for JIm and for Jack.
it will hopefully allow for more quality moments still.
it does remain sad though, Jack was one of the first fellow Primal patients that introduced himself to me, and I loved the sparkle in his eyes instantly.
thinking of all of you,
Margaret
I would dearly love to take back ALL of my interactions with Jack this past year and rewrite everything, but I can’t.
I wish I had known the situation better and I am being hammered with guilt today.
I’m really sorry, Jack.
Thank you Bernadette! We appreciate you taking the time to let us know.
It is sad – and must be hard for you and family… Jack will be so missed. I can’t help but smile
thru my tears – remembering some funny things he said, his zest for life, and his humble, loving nature.
L
Hi Everyone,
I am sorry to let you know that Jack passed away today at 4:50 p.m. (local time, The Netherlands) (7:50 a.m. Pacific Time).
Thank you all for your kind and supportive words above. I had forwarded them on to Jim in the hope that he could read them out to Jack. Although, as he was already in and out of consciousness during the last days, Jack was not able to hear them anymore.
My last communication with Jack was on Sunday, when he sent me an e-mail and asked me to tell you “Thanks everyone for best wishes” that you all had posted here before.
We are heartbroken and very sad. It is a comfort to know that his suffering is over and that his last days and hours were pain free, peaceful, and serene.
Goodbye “Uncle-in-Law”, I will always keep you in my heart!
Bernadette
Barry and I are just so sad that Jack is gone. We were always so touched by his loyalty and love for Primal and the blog . As he always said he loved the banter. Mostly we will always think of him at retreats . We will never forget the look on Vivians face when he told her she reminded him of his Grandmother ! Right now our hearts are with the people closest to Jack. His longtime partner Jim , his family Mark, Bernadette and Louise, his best friend and buddy Chris and one of his oldest friends Patrick. We are thinking of you all . Gretchen and Barry
Thank you Gretchen and Barry! Primal had a loyal “disciple” from the very moment when Jack had his Eureka! moment when he discovered the Primal Scream 🙂 His love for the banter on the blog kept him going every day, it was a reason to get up in the morning. Although he loved you, too Gretchen and Barry, I believe Vivian was his favorite 😉 Thanks much for your kind thoughts and words.
That is definitely true, that Jack just loved Vivian. From the 1st time I knew Jack, when he was my buddy at my first retreat, through all the years after, Jack has told me the stories multiple times, of how he felt about Vivian and what she did for him, that he “would never forget”. Remembering the way he talked about her, makes me smile.
Vicki, thanks for your kind words about Jack and sharing your memories. I remember you telling me about the special (and very funny) gift you gave him at that retreat; he loved it. And then, I believe at the last retreat he attended, he asked me to help him find a gift for you. He took it very seriously and wanted to do it right, even though it was hard for him to get around. Bless him! I thought that was very sweet.
I feel sad at Jack’s passing. He’ll be missed greatly. Thinking of you, Bernadette, Mark and Louise, and Jim. Jo.
Thanks for your kind words and thoughts, Jo.
Hi Everyone,
Jack left instructions for Jim in case of his death. His wish was that the following is posted on the blog:
“I wrote this before I died to say goodbye to planet earth, goodbye to all in this therapy, goodbye to all my friends and family. Lastly, goodbye to my darling Jimbo.”
Oohh…. Too soon. Another 100 years would have been nice Jack. Good-by fellow blogger.
Larry, a very sweet message! I also wanted to say thank you for being kind, and especially for the amazing, supportive post you wrote to Jack on Sep 14th.
Thanks Bernadette. I never expected to cry as hard as I did after reading your recent post of his final message to the blog. Finality hits home. I’m surprised how much the void left by his departure hurts. I hope that you, Mark, Jim and Jack’s other relatives and friends are able to find time and space to do the difficult work of grieving as needed.
I hadn’t realized how much Jack had become a component of my life. We bloggers share here when it feels like there is no where else to go with what we are feeling. Early on he and I had disagreements. Until I knew him better, he had been the most difficult person I’d ever run into. Nevertheless we eventually grew a mutual understanding and respect and I felt support from him. Then he always said I had a horribly difficult childhood, while I always felt (and he always denied) that life was terribly unfair to him.
For me the blog is a testing ground. What I learn through my interactions on the blog carry into my broader life. At least in some small part, Jack will be part of the fabric of who I’ve become. I’m sad that his becoming is at an end. Makes me realize that mine will be too one day. I’m glad that many years ago, I think before I finally met him in person, I told him on the blog that I wanted to give him a big bear hug. He didn’t know what to make of that, and cautioned me against it. Ha ha! Too bad he couldn’t have heard the blog’s final comments for him. I hope they at least give you and Mark and Jim some comfort, Bernadette.
I’m very sad Jack has passed away. He was a real character, one of a kind, and I’ll miss him here on the blog. It won’t be the same. I’m very glad to have met him at what I think was his last retreat.
My condolences to all his family and friends.
Phil
Phil, thank you for your kindness and sympathy.
Thank you, Bernadette, for letting us know. It is still a shock because of the finality of it all. Good bye, Dear Jack. You have left an impression with all of us for sure. Peace to your family, Bernadette and Jack’s Jimbo.
Silvia, thank you for your kindness and sweet words for Jack. Thanks also for the support you gave to Jack over the last weeks.
Thank you, Bernadette and Gretchen, and everyone for all the loving and kind comments about Jack. I know it is cliche to say, but I feel like an orphan suddenly. Jack was as close to a loving parent as I will ever have and he was a wonderful friend and buddy. No one in my life was ever there for me like Jack was. We “buddied” steadily for the past 11-12 years. There were many years–and I mean years–where several times a week Jack would take my calls in the middle of the night; I mean like 3:30 or 4 am middle of the night, and not once or twice, but many times… to Jim’s dismay. Sorry, Jim.
Jack was able to sit and listen carefully as the deepest and most painful feelings would pour out of me. And he was NEVER in a rush to get off the phone or distracted. He was the dearest and most loyal friend a person could ask for. I will never forget the time Jack came to my house just to sit with me as my dear cat Bisky was put to sleep. Thank you, Jack. BTW, Jack would never let me thank him for anything always telling me that I gave him as much or more as I got from him.
As he wrote here on the blog, Jack had been telling me for weeks that he was dying. In our buddying, we tried to explore any feeling component, and sadly I am not sure there was one, and looking back now I wish I would have spent more time telling Jack how much he meant to me. I guess I just did not want to believe it true that he was really dying. Jack said many times how he did not believe in an after-life and how he was not afraid of dying. He was afraid of how Jim would take it, and that Jim would be devastated. I am sure Jim is and know that we are here for you Jim.
This past Sunday I did speak to Jack via Skype and he looked very tired and weak and he could barely talk, but I was able to tell him that I loved him and how much he meant to me. He was unable to speak, but after we hung up he texted his last words to me, “You mean a lot to me and we both been through a lot.” We have been through a lot my good friend and I will remember you forever.
I have so much more to say but I am just so sad now.
Chris, thanks so much for sharing your feelings and expressing your love for Jack so freely. I know what a good friend Jack was to you, and my heart goes out to you in this sad time!
I also know how important you were to him. I can vouch for it: your ‘buddying” calls were priority to Jack. When Mark and I were staying with him for a couple of weeks in 2014, we could be in a conversation but when you called, that conversation was over, and we were sent to go shopping or to the other room to give you privacy (which we gladly did).
I know Jack took buddying very seriously with everyone, but honestly, Chris, you got the best of him. He loved being a buddy and helping people into feelings. He was ever so attentive and patient, as you said, and I remember him saying in his most gentle voice that touched your heart, “You’re doing it!” when the feelings came up and the tears started flowing, meaning you are in the feeling and there is nothing more to do but feel it. He was good at that, good at making you feel safe. I want to thank you for giving Jack’s life meaning in this way, as it was very important to him to be a good buddy and friend. I understand when he said that you gave him as much or more than you received from him. That’s how he was. Generous and kind.
I had many conversations with him about the afterlife, especially in the last few weeks. Of course there was no way he would even consider it. I teasingly asked him to send me a message from the other side when he finds out that I was right and he was wrong (nobody knows for sure!). His answer: “Whenever you think you are perceiving a signal from me, it’s your feeling, not me!” Wherever you are, Jack, may you be at peace!
I laughed at his answer, Bernadette! “Whenever you think you are perceiving a signal from me, it’s your feeling, not me!” Thanks.
Vicki, yes, it made me laugh, too! It’s a good answer 🙂
I really appreciate your thoughtful reply Bernadette; it so detailed and shows how connected you were to Jack. Haha, and I do remember when you and Mark stayed with him back in 2014. I was a little embarrassed to think that you were able to hear me screaming and crying through the phone, but Jack did not skip a beat: he was always ready to listen. And you’re right, Jack’s line of “You’re doing it!” was so encouraging. It’s funny but in the last few years he stopped saying that. I think we both realized I was in it for the long haul and that there may never be a “You’re done!”.
Saturday morning was one of the days we had regularly planned buddy session, so it is going to be hard waking up tomorrow knowing that Jack is not there.
I don’t read the Blog regularly, often I come and catch up reading, before I write something. So I completely had missed Jack’s Sept. 2 post, where he clearly talked about how he felt he was dying — he said it much more clearly than some of the flip comments I’ve heard him make in the past, which always made me think he might “go on forever”. Not so, the one on Sept. 2. It seems amazing that he was right, within just over two weeks later. As he got older, and was often repeating things in his posts, I didn’t know he was still capable of the kind of self-clarity he wrote on Sept. 2. So it kind of caught me shocked, at how fast his leave-taking happened — I didn’t expect it, and have found myself sadder than I would have imagined, especially considering how he and I did often not get along. I am glad we did also have some memories of nice presents and laughs. I think the sadness is a measure of my own mortality, but also just the loss of another someone familiar, when I come to the Blog.
Vicki, Jack’s moving from LA to Europe during his late octogenarian years solidified his aura of invincibility for me, and unfortunately made it too difficult for me to believe something might be wrong. Jack also attempted to send me a couple of emails a few months ago, which struck me as strange since we had agreed to part ways many years earlier. My harsh and misinformed judgments led me to believe he had something nefarious in mind, but it’s clear to me now that was not likely the case.
I sorely regret not softening my own stance towards Jack, and I only hope his last few months were reasonably happy for him.
Yeah yeah, I know Jack would say, “There’s no such thing as happiness, only feeling.” but I think you catch my drift..
I do catch your drift, Guru, but I also don’t think Jack would think badly of you, for having any “harsh or misinformed judgements” — he might just likely think you were mistaken and/or in a feeling. I would have thought his attempts to email you a few months ago were likely his reaching out to hopefully connect to you, again. I don’t think Jack held grudges, at all. Although at times when he and I were not getting along, he did learn to “read” my face, to know when to steer clear of me, which I appreciated. So you may have some regrets, but I don’t think you should beat yourself up for them. Jack would not have.
Vicki, I agree with everything you said to Guru here. You knew Jack well. Nothing to add; I would only repeat what you already said.
Vicki , I loved that “ it’s your feeling not me “ comment as well ! It’s so Jack ! Gretch
Chris, Everyone wants to be seen and appreciated. Of course all too often that does not happen. You truly saw and appreciated Jack. That had to mean so much to him. Gretch
thank you Gretchen, I never thought of it that way but I guess you are right. I saw, appreciated, and accepted Jack.
Well just had a pretty disturbing earthquake in Southern Ca. . I would say about a 5 ! Yikes ! Gretch
it was disturbing!!! they are calling it a 4.6 centered in San Gabriel Valley. It scared the shit out of me and I ran out the house!!
Yes, the first shake was strong, some lateral movement, I thought it might get worse — but then just a few much milder shakes, and then nothing — I am near LAX. One site says 4.6, another 4.8. Chris & Gretchen, I believe you’re closer to it, than I am.
How scary!!
It was scary ! I just heard upgraded to 4.8 but felt bigger and noisier because it is so close. I grabbed the puppy who looked a bit frightened and confused ! Fires are clearly not enough so let’s have an earthquake as well! G.
I am about 10-15 miles from the epicenter Vicki, so you’re probably another 15 miles. But it was quick jolt to get the blood flowing. It felt like it might really do some damage so I got out of the house in like 5 seconds, literally. plagues, fires, earthquakes, gees…
Chris, next come the locusts.
I remember a few years ago on the blog someone said something un-primal, not true to the theory, and I waited for Jack to say something. I said to myself, “Jack, say something, set this straight.” He did, thankfully. He was the master of primal theory. At that moment because I was new to blogging and needed to be reassured I was on the right track with with primalling, it really mattered that Jack stuck up for primal. And I continued to risk sharing my feelings here. I will always be grateful for that.
You’re right, Chris. We’ve had a couple of strong-shaking quakes this year, which scare me more. I am more used to the slow rollers I have felt for years, that last longer, but not so jolting at first. I remember one of those many years ago, living in Palms, I woke and looked to see my cat just sitting like a sphinx on the coffee table, as my whole room swayed for long seconds. She was pretty blase. I will ask my friends how Baby handled this one down in Long Beach, if they felt it.
Long Beach is another 23 miles away. Baby’s & Mona’s moms said the earthquake woke them up, and scared the shit out of her! The first thing she said was, “What’s wrong with these girls!! They sleep through everything!!” Neither of the dogs even moved!!
Yes, felt it, too here close to the Marina. It was pretty scary!
Louise sent me this to put on the blog. It’s really wonderful! Gretch Dearest.sweetest,maddest,kindest uncle Jack!
Most people would think that an uncle is not as important as a mother or father or grandparent but for me, your presence in my life has been just as important.
When I was a little kid and you would make your whirlwind appearances from exotic sounding places like London and Ibiza and Paris and Amsterdam, with your life changing ideas and mad exuberance it gave me hope that I too could have a life of adventure and follow my dreams. This continued of course when I came to LA and you and Jim put up with me and helped me once again to experience something different! I will never forget the walks and talks and coffee we shared and the California sunshine. Visiting you in Amsterdam and being invited to a live sex show by the very friendly neighbours was also a highlight LOL. Most of all though to be loved by someone, whether blood family or not, in such an unconditional way without any expectation is surely the most wonderful gift a person can receive from another. This i had from you!
I love you and will see you on the other side!
When you get there and realise I am right send me and Jim and Bernadette a red balloon. I will be watching out for it.
I am sad to be in a world without you but I know you will be with me
As always and forever sending you love
Louise xx
This I would put on his gravestone if he had one!
Jack Waddington: The prime example of how one person being who they truly are, allows the other to be who they truly are! The greatest gift!
I’m sad at the news of Jack’s death. The place wouldn’t be the same without him.
In thinking of him my thoughts drifted to a Berthold Brecht poem which I thought would honour Jack and capture some of his spirit. Here it is:
On the birth of a son
Families, when a child is born to them
Wish it intelligent.
I, who through intelligence
Have entirely ruined my life,
Can only hope my son
Will turn out ignorant and too idle to think.
Then he will have a quiet life
As a cabinet minister.
My condolences to Jack’s family, friends and buddy.
Daniel, thank you for the condolences and thoughtfulness. I love the poem and agree, it captures some of Jack’s spirit.
thank you Daniel. The poem is great and reminds me of a story that Jack shared with me more than a few times. In secondary school the teacher asked Jack a famous question posed by the philosopher JS Mill: “Would you rather be a human dissatisfied or a pig satisfied?” I’m sure after all of the blogging you’ve done with Jack you must know his answer!
Yes, that sounds like classical Jack, even though I don’t fully believe that that would be his choice given the opportunity. Perhaps I’m just refusing to believe that, to echo Jack’s side which was disappointed in and rejected humanity. Miserable as we humans are we still have some joyful advantages.
Your upcoming Zoom service for Jack is a moving gesture for you buddy of many years.
what Louise wrote is so beautifully worded and reflects so much the qualities I will always associate with Jack, his liveliness, joy for life,and his generosity.
it is good to know he had people who cared so much about him.
my heart goes out to Jim who has to carry on without Jack now.
Margaret
Margaret, thanks so much for your kind words about Jack earlier this week. I also loved what you wrote to him on September 2nd. It is very warm and caring. It’s nice that you had the chance to tell him how you feel about him before he passed away. Thanks for sharing the memories.
Hi Everybody,
I am going to set up a ZOOM memorial service for Jack next Saturday the 26th of September at 10:00 am PST. It will be an informal opportunity for us to share stories about Jack and to honor his life with our memories. Please come share as we remember how Jack impacted us. Bring photos if you have any, and maybe some Kleenex as we say goodbye to our dear friend.
As Jack loved to blog and loved the banter with you all on here, I invite all of you who here to come and join in the memorial. Even if you have had disagreements with Jack over the years, I can assure he never spoke ill of anyone here and you are all welcome. If you would like to come, please send an email to Gretchen or Atty at the Institute with your email address and they can forward it to me so I can send you the link to the ZOOM meeting. And ZOOM is very easy to use, you just click on the link and the programs pretty much runs without needing to download any software.
I hope to see you all there,
Chris
Sweet! Thank you, Chris!!
Thank you Chris! We appreciate you getting this all together.
It is a lovely tribute to Jack – and to what you had.
L&B
Hi all,
as I wrote above, the memorial ZOOM service for Jack will take place this coming Saturday the 26th of September at 10 am PST.
Here is the link to the ZOOM meeting: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/84814129411
I hope to see you there,
Chris
It feels fittine to have the memorial ZOOM service for Jack, Chris. It is an opportunity to say good-bye to him as a primal community. I want to participate in it. I feel the need. But I might be away this weekend.
memorial ZOOM service for Jack this coming Saturday the 26th of September at 10 am PST.
Here is the link to the ZOOM meeting: https://us02web.zoom.us/j/84814129411
Chris,
I will attend tomorrow, even if possibly I can only stay for a while.
Margaret
I plan to attend too, but it’s for Saturday Margaret, not tomorrow.
Phil
glad to know Phil and Margaret; see you two there
Phil,
yes, I knew but somehow it felt like Saturday was tomorrow.
a friend canceled our lunch for today as she had severe back pain, so this day feels too empty…
tomorrow visit to my mom.
autumn seems suddenly to be setting in here now, a big change…
this week the subscriptions for the senior gym classes should have opened, but to only half the attendance of before Covid.
but the site messed up repeatedly so after many of us tried in vain to subscribe the date has been set to next Tuesday 9 am, and we will have to be fast as each group will only accept 10 participants, and I really long to start it again!!!
the site is not very well accessible with Voice Over, so someone will have to try to sign me up, hopefully in time!
these days everything seems to be difficult…
and I am putting on Corona pounds bit by bit, also due to increased comfort eating, and on the wrong place as always, my belly and face…
so fingers crossed that I will be able to get into this (fun) group gym class!
M
Margaret,
I hope you get into that class. I also plan to go back to the gym finally, but taking a lot of precautions. The weather has already changed here too. One night this week we had our first frost, which seems a bit early for our area.
Phil
We missed you there, Sylvia, Larry, and Daniel, the Memorial service was excellent! Chris showed a video of pics of Jack, I had no idea Jack had been such a handsome guy when he was young, that surprised me. And Louise told stories she heard from Jack — she grew up with him, as his niece. Patrick came too, and told of how he and Jack had made peace. It was good to see people we had not seen at all this year, and some for years longer.
What!! For some reason I had it in my head that the memorial was this evening. I spent the latter part of this morning and early afternoon helping someone move most of their belongings to their new residence. I was looking forward to participating in the memorial this evening. I got to know Jack mainly through the blog but also from having visited him a couple of times in his trailer off Colorado mabye 8 years ago. It surprises me to realize I formed a bond of sorts with him, and how in his death I feel a void that I don’t like. I wish I had experienced Chris’s memorial for him.
And Guru — I was hoping you might come to the Memorial, too. Haven’t seen you for a very long time. You may not be able to feel it, but you would have been welcome.
Vicki, it’s nice reading this from you…and yes, it was exceptionally difficult decision for me not to attend Jack’s memorial. Some of the reasons would be a surprise to many, and I honestly cannot delve into all this now.
It was not meant to be a slight towards Jack, no.
Right now I am trembling with fury over something completely unrelated to Jack (hint…asshole neighbor who years ago illegally put a FULL POWER streetight within 3 feet of my backyard (no, not exaggerating THREE FEET!! My backyard was completely immersed….totally bathed in light)…he managed to talk the city into putting it in an alleyway against municipal policy and it completely bombed out my backyard with light so he could constantly have a birds eye view of this property…his prize he’s always wanted even though it completely destroyed my nighttime privacy and everywhere I walked in the yard was essentially a fishbowl for all to see,,,,after 15 years of a learned sense of helplessness….I finally called the city and had the head foreman come look at it.
“We don’t do alleyways, this should be taken down”
Can you imagine a neighbor talking a city into planting a FULL POWER streetlight meant for multi-lane city streets just a few feet from my backyard without my permission?
After the light was removed, the neighbor gave off FURIOUS non-verbal cues and shaking his head, “No, not allowed” …Like I was the one who did something wrong..so he rousted his employees to work against me to reinstall another streetlight I asked to be removed since there are already THREE streetlights in a 100 foot street block along with 22 of his privatized acorn light bombs.
Funny enough, if you go to the actual home of the individual his house is DARK.
That’s the snake oil gaslighting sack of dogshit I am contending with
It makes it hard for me to focus on work or Jack.
I will remember Jack in my own time..
I do see why ….I do understand why he said money was insanely pathetic and stupid…I truly get the spirit of why he said that…it’s just that….it’s the only game in town, the only language society speaks, I can’t help that.
How DARE me remove a full power streetlight the neighbor installed to focus completely on my own yard (without even asking my permission, no less!)
I swear to God the light pole was 3 feet from my yard. There was no nighttime in my backyard, it was insane.
But now, I am cast as the ‘evil Prince of Darkness” for turning the light off.
I just can’t focus on Jack, I’m sorry. I’ll shut up now. I’m dealing with all kinds of weird shit people would not begin to understand.
Let’s just get back to Jack before I ruin this for everybody. I’m OK with that.
The best way I can describe this individual…powerful, locally influential
A paranoid far right-wing Catholic authoritarian control freak akin to Attorney General Bill Barr.
Guru, I understand this a-hole gets to you, I remember you told me about that kind of stuff many years ago, so you just have to keep fighting his rude actions as best you can, with your city. But it seems like when he “gets to you”, it also derails you into some hysteria, where you sound like you’re “trying to prove you’re not the evil one” to us, when we already know that about you. So I wonder what you may need here from us — maybe you’re just too alone with your troubles and fears. If so, then good you’re writing about it.
Vicki, I am toeing a fine line here when I talk publicly. Some people on the blog (about 3 or 4 people) know more details than I am sharing here, If you knew as much as they knew, it may help you to understand the usage of ‘evil’ in my writings.
Sociopath gaslighters are adept at purposely isolating people who stand in their way or whose best interests conflict with theirs. In other words the gaslighter will actively recruit others to their cause against the lone person (ME).
I don’t think I needed much more from here on the blog, except to show that my anger frequently boils over from this situation. A gaslighter and his recruits are not going to be lovingly accepting my anger, even though I am the one literally surrounded and placed under siege in this block. (remember my story about Vera Coking and Donald Trump?)
I am dealing with a highly cunning animal who will stop at nothing for the rest of his life to eventually score his greatest prize, my ancestral home. His father wanted it when I was young. It’s a multi-generational project with these people.
I would go so far as to say he would feel it as his moral imperative to take over and demolish my house, so as to satisfy his belief he would go to Heaven and make his father proud for achieving what his father couldn’t.
That’s how fucked up the situation is.
There are permanent legal solutions to the problem. Very creative solutions all requiring a shit ton of money to put into action.
Vicki, It was a beautiful memorial. I was so moved by all Chris did to honor Jack. The videos were incredible. I believe Larry is out of town but Sylvia and Daniel were missed. I will say I do understand, if I could have skipped my own mothers memorial I might have. It’s all very painful. I said to Atty I’m not altogether sure about this closure concept anyway ha! Vicki your poem was one of the highlights. Loved it! I thought to myself this is truly a Primal memorial. Everyone was so honest and straightforward, each memory of Jack began with “ I loved Jack , he was one of a kind but boy did he drive me crazy. “ . No sugar coating but he was very much loved. Unconditionally. Gretch .
There comes a time we all know
There’s a place that we must go
Into the soul into the heart
Into the dark
Melissa Etheridge, “Into the Dark”
Oh that’s too bad Larry. I think Chris can send you the videos G
Helping someone move .🤔
Yes…a most excellent way to stir up primal trouble (a roller coaster of feelings in other words).
The memorial for Jack was wonderful, and showed how much you cared Chris. I wish I had gotten to know Jack better and met him sooner. It’s too bad the rest of the bloggers weren’t there.
Phil
thanks for that Vicki, Gretchen, and Phil. And thanks for coming. The memorial is pale in comparison to what I got from Jack. I really miss him–and yes Phil–I cared a lot about him. And it was great to see that many others cared about Jack too and what a big impact he has had on our community. It was great to hear all of the stories about Jack, and I agree with Gretchen the poem that Vicki shared was exquisite. And the story that his niece Louise shared of Jack studying the map of Cornwall and making it to Truro by hitchhiking; how wonderful! It really was a “Primal” memorial, maybe a little too primal in places (hmm. hmm. Steve). I’m just kidding it was great to hear people being so honest; I would not have wanted it any other way. And Patrick was well-behaved.
Sorry others weren’t able to come, but as Gretchen wrote, I am willing to share the videos, I just don’t want to link them here. If anyone wants to watch the videos, you can get the link from Gretchen or me.
Since things weren’t sugarcoated at Jack’s memorial, I think this brings up an important point similar to what I am struggling against. When he was healthier years ago, Jack would often be an ‘actual’ irritant in some ways and then say, “That’s your feeling (which must have roots in unresolved trauma or feeling unloved)” when clearly there are going to be legitimate grounds for complaints in life as well.
I am struggling mightily to try to shut up out of respect for Jack, yet I am in a state of outraged despair at my living situation to where I want to scream from the rooftops for help in front of a large crowd (the blog).
I’m not living in a slum or in squalor, no, but the psychological dynamics of the resolutely determined party surrounding me and wanting the land I am on are INCREDIBLY nasty, continuously working hard against me, and are debilitating to my psyche.
The problem is overpowering for me and is ruining my ability to get needed things done.
I don’t know where else to turn to so I can just talk and talk and talk about it with sympathetic ears until the bioelectric emotional charge temporarily depletes itself and I can relax.
I don’t mind doing so away from here so more time can be spent remembering Jack.
I have a family of four people (and perhaps more than that in the background I am not aware of) who would benefit financially and in terms of ego gratification if I was forced out of my house and it was torn down for redevelopment to their liking
That shit just pisses me off no end.
I need Michael Bloomberg levels of cash. I’d know EXACTLY what I would do with it, too, and bring this horseshit to an end forever (legally).
I’m so angry I can’t think straight.
I meant in the beginning of my last post “There are a family of four…” not implying it’s my family.
Aargh!
Guru,
This problem has been going on a long time with your neighbors, you say. I wonder what was your father’s outlook on all this?
Phil
Phil, dad was a genius at mathematics and one of the sweetest teddy bear guys you would ever meet. The problem is that in the eyes of the people surrounding me, that made my dad a soft touch to take advantage of.
Real estate is a vicious zero-sum game when crucial scraps of needed land for proper development are involved.
It’s not a game for teddy bears like my dad.
Guru, but what was his attitude on this? Did he want to keep the property at all costs, or want you to do it? Phil
Phil, beyond this point I think it would be best to take this off the blog for multiple reasons. You’re welcome to discuss this with me elsewhere. Maybe Gretchen will kindly go through the trouble of giving you my email address?
Guru, here on the blog you can have the benefit of everyone’s reactions. I hope you can resolve the situation to your satisfaction. It does sound really difficult. Phil
Sorry I missed the Memorial service for Jack. Did anyone record it?
If not, I’ll write Gretchen for the links to the videos.
Guru, I’m sorry to hear of your outraged despair, a definite blow to quality of life. I hope you will find some way to work it out, hopefully one day with but regrettably even without Michael Bloomberg’s wealth.
All the best to you all.
thanks Chris, it really was a wonderful experience.
of course I could not see the pictures but I listened to the music and reflected on all what had been said by all the participants.
i feel that if Jack would have been on a comfortable cloud listening to it all, he might have shed a few tears here and there, but he also would have laughed out loud many times.
there was a true atmosphere of kindness and honesty and love to this meeting.
the fact Patrick was allowed in after some deliberations really added to that feeling for me.
i was mentioning a few times how I felt he should be allowed in to what to me felt like some kind of funeral, and while at first there were some objections, it was all expressed in a gentle way which never sounded mean or angry.
but until he was allowed in I noticed it would have been hard to focus on anything else for me.
but from then on things just were beautiful and genuinely moving, including what Patrick said, it really was a very beautiful experience an I feel privileged to have been part of it and to have heard some of his family’s stories.
afterwards it was still on my mind a lot, and I even dreamed about being in group and talking about it.
in my dream I talked about the bad feeling I had that resonated in me with at first picturing Patrick having to stay out while wanting to join, feeling like an outsider, or outcast.
but then, when in my dream I added the word ‘hopeless’ to that state of mind, something snapped in myself and a long squeaky kind of cry cburst out of me that went on and on.
i woke up and felt how apart from childhood feelings of being some kin of outsider mhself, there is also a large aspect for me of forever being an outsider now of life due to my loss of eyesight…
so everybody being in group and the generosity and kindness and love and comppassion of it all felt very healing.
if I could wish for anything, it would be to attend something like that about myself, but preferably shortly before I would die, ha, as I would like to hear what people would say about me, the good and not so good, but all in such a loving atmosphere of acceptance and well, love, warmth, understanding.
so thanks Chris!
Margaret
my pleasure Margaret, it was great to have you there and to share in the loving atmosphere. Chris
Thank you for the links, Gretchen to Jack’s tributes. Chris you did a wonderful thing in letting us see more about Jack. The music of Lennon and John Denver got to me along with the photos and well wishes of his family and friends and this group. Jack’s photo from his comment posts has always reminded me of one of my brothers who is also gone. That is funny what he said to you about your car; no pulling punches for Jack. He sure had a rich life with all his jobs and travels and time in the theater and finding his true love. Thank you, again for sharing memories.
S
my pleasure Sylvia, thank you for the kind words. I must admit I kept hoping you would have come to the memorial. I am not sure if you knew it but Jack liked you and spoke highly of you. But I appreciate that it might not have been right or comfortable for you to come.
Thank you, Chris, that means a lot to me that Jack thought well of me. Thank you again for this day of memories and the feelings it has brought about for all of us.
S
Another surprise for me was that I didn’t know Jack was such a fan of John Denver’s music, as was in the videos Chris showed yesterday. That music has been running through my head almost non-stop, since. Luckily it’s not making me crazy, like some music I have to fight off, And I don’t think I ever got to tell Jack my little John Denver story — he sat right behind us in a packed, 1000-seat theatre in Westwood, when I went with a couple of friends to the Star Wars 10th Anniversary showing of all three original films, so many years ago. We had to stand in line for hours, to get tickets, so it was hardcore fans, whooping, cheering, and hissing throughtout the back-to-back-to-back films, as that was the first time all three were publicly shown in sequence for one ticket.
haha cool story Vicki! I didn’t know John Denver was a hardcore Star Wars fan. Did he stay for all three films? His music really is lovely. I hadn’t listened to him for years but it seemed to perfectly fit the picture-telling of Jack’s life, more so than the John Lennon song.
Yes, Chris, he did see all 3 of them, even with short breaks between the films. He was keeping a fairly low profile (not disguised, but dressed-down), but there with the rest of us getting loud. I remember he did disappear at the end.
Hi Vicki, I was surprised as well that Jack liked John Denver. In the 20+ years that I knew Jack, I never saw or heard him listening to any music, at all! He would listen to the PBS News Hour every evening (later in Europe CNN International) to keep himself informed, but never did I notice him listening to music. He did mention once that he liked classical music. Cool story about John Denver– only in LA!
Last Words about Jack – A different perspective
I have not been able to think straight since Jack died on September 18. I have kept the bloggers informed and participated in the Zoom memorial for him – thank you Chris! But I have not been able to really express my thoughts about Jack. Just this morning something oppressive lifted in my head, so here it goes:
Yes, Jack was loud and attention seeking, provocative, opinionated, and stubborn. He also was a good listener, an attentive buddy, compassionate, empathic, and made you feel safe to feel your feelings. He was a brilliant computer programmer, a meticulous organizer of his affairs and things, an actor in his younger years, a trained electrician, a practical handyman around his trailer, a bit of a drama queen, and a twenty years survivor of HIV Positiv. He was the four-decades-long partner of Jim, a father figure to some, a loyal friend and buddy to others, and an avid blogger who challenged people and the status quo. He was the untiring advocate of Primal because he believed that the concept of “feeling your feelings” could save the world, a world that needs saving in his eyes. But he was so much more….
When he flirted with the cashiers at the supermarket and the waiters at the restaurant, maybe he was seeking their attention, but consider this: he also made them smile until their eyes lit up, where you and I sometimes don’t even make eye contact with the people who serve us. He was good at seeing people, drawing them out, and making their day.
When in the morning after finishing his daily routine, he fed the squirrels in the park, he was gentle, calm, and sweet. The squirrels ate out of his hands and he talked to them in a soft voice. They listened, and sometimes climbed on his shoulders and sniffed at his always scruffy beard. And then he picked up the broom and swept the leaves off his patio that had fallen over night, every day with the attention and care worthy of a Zen master, like it was the only important thing he needed to do.
When I first met him, Jack ticked a few “firsts” in my book: First openly gay man. First man with a long ponytail down his back, which was pretty eccentric at the time for a man approaching sixty. First person I knew who lived in a trailer – an “alternative” lifestyle I thought. The first self-proclaimed sex addict. The first who openly did not care what other people thought of him. And the first “banter” over my statement, “This is the best cup of coffee I’ve ever had” where he tried to refute my logic. Who is this guy? Quite shocking yet intriguing. Later I found in him an ally who thinks outside the box, outside of the rules and conventions that society put on us. He confirmed my notion that more is not always better, and possessions don’t make you happy. I learned from him that there are more important things to pursue than money, career, and status. His unconventional take on life inspired me to look at things from different angles. I believe his unbound energy was a direct result of him living from the heart, and relatively unburdened from the heavy obligations that a traditional society demands.
I believe he had a genuine love and concern for this world and its people. When he argued about abolishing money and anarchy, it was from the recognition of how damaging and dehumanizing the current system is for many – or most people really – the injustice that prevails on a social, financial, political, and environmental level. When people perceived him as stubbornly adhering to his “unworkable” ideas, I now see, he came from a deeply concerned place, from his true conviction that there could be a better world for all.
He didn’t care about the ideas of the conventional establishment – career, money, house, car, etc. He chose to live in a trailer; an apartment would have been too confining, and the financial burden of a home mortgage would have drowned the life force out of him, and who needs a whole house anyway? he would say. A car was just a means to an end, a necessary evil in L.A., not a status symbol. He had seven shirts and seven pairs of jeans that he rotated from day to day, each outfit was faithfully allocated to a day: the blue checkered shirt on Monday, the black checkered shirt on Tuesday, etc. Two pairs of shoes. A jacket. A cozy sweater. A sun hat in LA. And a warm, fuzzy hat and a good pair of gloves once he moved to the Netherlands. Anything more he would have considered excessive.
And yes, he recycled every scrap of paper, aluminum can, plastic bottle, and glass jar. He was concerned about air and water pollution. He was against fracking, the coal and mining industries. He helped to protect nature preserves and national parks and endangered animals. He spent thousands of dollars supporting human rights activists, environmental groups, political causes, and various NGOs. He also picked up scraps of trash on the beach and in parks that others had discarded and deliberately put them into the next trash can. Give something back in exchange for the natural beauty that the beach and park give to us, he would say.
When he had enough of the toils of the day, it was time to cuddle up on the couch, and all that whirling, supercharged energy came to a quiet rest in Jim’s arms. That’s the time when the loud and opinionated Jack became calm and receptive of the more tender things in life. He was vulnerable and sweet, like a young child. And when Jim wanted to move back to Europe, Jack said that he wants to do this for Jim because Jim had come to America with him so he could do therapy, an endeavor that should have lasted only a few months, a couple of years the most. But we all know how that goes, and Jim stuck with him throughout the decades. So now it was time for Jack to give back to Jim.
So what kept him sleepless at night, I wonder? Because surely, even the happiest and most outspoken man would have his doubts in the wee hours of the morning. He was concerned about leaving his beloved Jim behind when he died. And he once confided in me that he was worried about not having done enough, not having been able to reach more people, convince more people – show them a better way, maybe? Keep going, Jack, I would say, keep being your old feisty self! See, when he said, he loved the banter, he only revealed part of the truth. Yes, he did love the banter, it’s true, but deep down it was much more serious: he also took it upon himself to “spread the word” and reach people with his message. If there is one thing he would have loved to have done better, it would be to have convinced more people of his ideas.
So, was he the eternal jokester and flirt, or was he a most concerned thinker?
Was he the happy-go-lucky, life loving whirlwind that he so often displayed or a doubt ridden, unheard prophet? Maybe a bit of both, or all of it in one. I will never have a definitive answer. But I dare say that he impacted each and everyone of us in one way or another. Maybe he even left a piece of him in each of us. I am very grateful for Jack; he was one of the most honest and authentic persons I have known. A bit extreme, but essentially a good person with a good and generous heart who meant well.
One thing I do know: Whether we like it or not, he was meant to be exactly as he was.
Thanks a lot, Bernadette, for this illuminating and thought-provoking exposition or summary of “Jack”. He was all those things, for sure, and we will miss him “being around”.
Thanks, Vicki, I think deep down he was a softie, although he would never have admitted to it 🙂
wow, Bernadette, this is such an amazingly clear, detailed, and thoughtful portrait of Jack. And accurate as I knew him. Wow, just wow!!! You really have brought to life in words this simple yet complex man—who we loved—in such a fair and incisive way. What a treasure this is! Thank you!!
Chris, thank you, and I will cherish your compliment. Yes, we loved him, and I love your words “simple yet complex man” – they sum him up. Thanks!
Bernadette – This is an amazingly moving and illuminating tribute to Jack!
I felt I got to know him so much more from your beautiful thoughts and words.
This with Chris’ fabulous visuals & chosen passages & Louise’s honest and sweet message make for a very full and real capsule while remembering Jack…
Authentic and unique – that is for sure – and that was Jack!
TY
Hi Leslie, thanks! I am glad I was able to add my take on Jack, which of course is completely biased! He would say to me, It’s all projection and your feeling. He didn’t believe that he was a good person, but I believe he was. I also enjoyed seeing the pictures from his youth; I was utterly surprised to see him so polished and preppy!
I was lovely to see you on Zoom! Maybe you will participate in the next Zoom get-together that Chris has in mind? BB
Thank you Bernadette. The effect that Jack had on me and the attachment I feel to him surprises me, given that I know him mostly from the blog and I’d been in person with him for not more than 10 hours total. Nevertheless he made an impact, on everyone, an overall good one judging by the reactions that I’ve heard and read and my own in regards to his death. His death is also a sad, sobering reminder for me that time relentlessly keeps moving, despite that we each have a “Best by: ” date and an “End” date.
Larry, thanks for sharing your thoughts! I think his authenticity and emotional honesty is what impacted people. If someone is genuine and sincere, it is easier to relate. I felt drawn to him because I intuitively sensed that he meant well and was basically kind and generous. That doesn’t mean that he was without fault, of course not. Mostly, when I called him on his B.S. he would have the integrity to admit to it. I say, mostly 🙂
I hear you about the sad, sobering reminder of the ticking clock. It will catch up with all of us for sure. But I also believe that the “Best by” date kind of moves along with us; meaning, we get better as we get older (that is, if you work at it). There might be “bits falling off” as Jack used to say, but I believe the essential part of us is steadily growing and evolving, so that when the “End” date comes, we can say that we truly have lived and done our best. That’s my take and I’m sticking to it! And Larry, it’s not over until it’s over! You have still many years to go and still be your best!
Your are right about the ‘Best by’ date Bernadette. My ‘Best by’ date will be the date after which I stop primaling and stop striving toward my desired better future.
Larry, I am struggling for words… Maybe it’s because I don’t quite understand what you are saying, sorry! Are you saying that only after all the primaling and striving is done, you will be your best? Or are you saying that the primaling and striving for a better future is the very thing that keeps you from being your best now? What I know about you, you are living a pretty full and fulfilling life now. Isn’t that being your best? I think it’s a complex issue. My head is starting to spin… There is something melancholy about your statement.
Hi Chris
Thank you so much for the wonderful videos. They are so precious. You did an amazing job at putting together the pictures and adding the music and texts. It is very touching to watch them – over and over again – it makes me cry every time. It has touched Mark’s heart as well, and he is remembering past times and is crying… thank you for that!
I thought the Zoom memorial went very well. It was good seeing everyone, some I had not seen in many years, and I loved hearing everybody’s stories and thoughts.
Thanks again, Chris! Very well done indeed!
thank you, Bernadette, I appreciate the positive feedback. I have been watching the videos over and over again too and finding that there is still a lot of hurt and sadness. As I mentioned in the email, I hope we can all get together on ZOOM again in the not so distant future to talk and reminisce some more.
Chris, I would be up for another Zoom get-together! I agree with you, there is still a lot of hurt and sadness to be worked out. What makes me think most is how much his authenticity and “live-out-loud” way of being has impacted me. It goes deeper than I first thought.
Bernadette,
what a wonderful comment you wrote!
especially the story about Jack and the squirrels touched me.
it takes great patience and gentleness to gain such trust, it is incredible they even climbed on his shoulders, and haha, explored his beard, probably hoping for some crumbles…
i remember how he specially mentioned he was gonna miss the squirrels when he moved out of the trailer park…
i also liked what you wrote about him brushing away the leaves in the way you so well described, it says a lot about you too that you did remark with such clarity how special that was.
there will indeed remain a bit of him in all of us, thanks to you and Chris, and not to forget Louise as her stories were also so touching and coming from a whole new angle.
it was a privilege to have participated at this memorial group, thanks to everyone that was there including those who would have wanted to attend.
Margaret
Margret, thank you! Besides Jack, I knew only one other man who so meticulously swept up the leaves, and that was my father. I had the privilege to get to know Jack on a more “intimate” level when Mark and I stayed with him for a couple of weeks in 2015 and then took care of him for a while in 2017. By then his whirlwind days had been almost over, he had become more quiet and pensive. Not so much on the blog, though, he was as outspoken as ever! When we did the grocery shopping for him, the first thing on the list was always peanuts for the squirrels. That was so sweet.
It was really nice seeing you on Zoom, Margaret! And I enjoyed watching your cat wander back and forth in front of the screen a couple of times, I believe when you stepped out for a moment 🙂
–Bernadette
Spontaneous Poetry
I sat on a bench in the park
Brushing my hair with a thousand strokes
The squirrel watched mesmerized and
The bird with the red spot stopped the drumming
It had been too long since I’d been outside
A croaky moan escaped my throat
I stepped into the woods this afternoon
The soles of my feet found unfamiliar rocky ground
Herbaceous scents filled the air and baffled the senses
The trees cast vexing shadowy patterns on the path
Screeching black and white birds assaulted the calm
The ascent to the top was cruel: dusty hot and steep
I lost my way twice
I lost my mind and control of my bladder
I nearly lost my faith
But I did not lose heart
What is a life about?
A joy ride? A battle? A dream?
It was a long goodbye and
The end came
Like a lightning bolt
I stepped out of the woods and realized
I had been inside far too long
I like your poem, Bernadette, as it painted clear pictures, and also made me laugh, and had something to say.
Vicki, thanks for your feedback. I don’t usually write poems, but yesterday I was suddenly inspired… must have be the loss of control of various things that did it. LOL
hurray!!
Finally, despite many electronical hurdles due to flaws of the website, I am subscribed to the gym and condition training group again, with now only half the number of participants so it was really important to subscribe fast when the green sign was given!
from next week Friday on there will be a training every week, if it does not get canceled again like it was in spring.
but so far I am sooo happy to be in!!
Bernadette, now I understand why I heard at the end of the memorial (Gretchen’s?) voice mentioning Margaret’s cat as a participant, but it was in the far distance in my audio version mixed in with other voices so I wondered if i had been hallucinating, haha!
he must have made his appearance when I was out of the way, isn’t he cute??
it must have been Pluchwe, a more slender version of his twin brother Plukkie, who has the same color but almost four pounds more and a thicker fur.
the vet said they must have their colors from mommy cat and their size and quality of fur of two different daddies, which happens often with cats.
also with foxes, it is a prevention measure it seems to make all males think the litter is theirs so they don’t kill it to be able to make their own offspring.
smart of those female cats and foxes of course, and probably they don’t mind using this system, haha!
first the fun and then more safety, good deal I would say…
so far the other cat only made an audio appearance when one time I attended virtual group laying on my bed, and he installed himself next to me and purred so loudly Chris noticed the sound of a purring cat during group, smiley…
i love these groups including cats and dogs, feels cozy…
M
Margaret, Hurray! Good for you to get back into fitness training!
I was thinking of you yesterday when I noticed a blind man cross the street, he had a white cane for guidance. I watched him stumble and stagger onto the sidewalk as he arrived at the other side…I wanted to jump out of the car and run to his rescue but I couldn’t abandon my car in the middle of the intersection… he found his way and didn’t fall. It made me think how heroic and courageous people with visual impairment are. My heart goes out to you!
And from one cat lover to another, I have to tell you about my neighbor’s cat. Kona is an 18-year old Siamese with beautiful blue eyes who decided that she liked it better on my side of the fence than at home. She has been sleeping either under my car (in winter) or on top of my car (in summer). I have started to feed her regularly, as my neighbor is neglecting her, she was looking too skinny. When I work in my garden, she is sometimes there watching me, it feels cozy. She likes to curl up inside the loops of the garden hose, when I leave it out. Lately she has been sleeping on my patio during the day, or under the shady tree, and when feeding time comes, she sits on my door step expecting the food. When we come back from our bike rides in the evening, she sits in the driveway as to say: Hey, it’s about time you get home, I’m hungry! The other day, you won’t believe it, I was out shopping (for cat food, haha!) I got a text from Mark saying “The bloody cat just walked into the backdoor, wandered through the bedroom, through the office, through the living room giving me a dirty look, and then out the front door!” HAHAHA! I was so amused! Next thing, she will move in with us!!!
Bernadette, I loved your perspective on a Jack, so clear and real. I think he would have appreciated being seen to that degree. I also loved your poem particularly the last line. At this time in our lives “ being inside far too long” can apply in a multitude of ways. I’m so glad you posted and it doesn’t need to be your last words by the way. You can have as many words as you need ! Gretch
Gretchen, yes, thanks, I was really not quite aware of how much impact Jack had on me until I reflected on it! And yes, when I wrote the line “I had been inside far too long” it was meant to be interpreted in different ways. I am glad you encouraged me to write more, if I needed to. Because just this morning I wrote more but then hesitated to post it thinking, I would annoy the bloggers, like “not her again!” type of thing. So I will take your advice, and post what I wrote earlier. Thank you! Please see below.
It’s my birthday today and something is missing in my mailbox. Every year like clockwork, for many years now looking back, I would get a birthday card from Jack. It never would have been an ordinary card bought off the shelf – no! He always designed it on his computer and printed it out. Four pages of a very unique, personalized card just for me. He would print flowers and birds and bees and butterflies on the card because he knew how much I love nature. And there was always a picture of himself, sometimes alone, sometimes together with Jim, printed on the last page of the card. There would be lovely words and birthday wishes printed in a special font, each page a different color. Then he signed it in ink with his strong, slanted signature “Uncle-in-law Jack” the name that I assigned to him first as a tease, then it became a term of endearment. Just to say, he put a lot of effort into these cards. They made me feel very special. I collected them over the years, a small stack of precious, little treasures in my drawer. Thank you, Jack!
Happy Birthday Bernadette!
Thanks so much Phil!
that’s so sad, I know Jack was so careful and consistent with birthdays taking great care to send personalized cards and birthday wishes. And I agree with what Gretchen wrote, there is no reason in the world why you can’t keep writing or saying whatever you want about Jack or anything, It has only been a little over a week and Jack’s passing is a big loss for some of us. Keep it coming.
And happy birthday Bernadette!!
Chris, thanks for the birthday wishes! And thanks for encouraging me to keep writing, I really appreciate it. I missed seeing Jack’s birthday card in my box, and I miss him even more!!
Chris, I assume you were also a privileged recipient of Jack’s special edition birthday cards?
Bernadette, yes I was! After I read your post today I went and looked at some of the cards he had sent me. I was looking at the one from my last birthday and it is classic Jack. He put a picture on the card of a baby being lovingly held and captioned it with “this is the childhood you should have had Chris.” hilarious and yet so true!
But you are right, the cards were so personal and thoughtful. I remember in Skype sessions with him when he would show me the cards he was working on, such a lovely memory. He took such care and pride in his work!
Chris, that was so sweet and so thoughtful of Jack. I watched him work on his computer at times, and I marveled at his determination to get things done, especially once his eye sight got worse. Sometimes he had to use a magnifying glass to decipher small details on the computer screen. Every other person would have given up – not Jack!
Awww Happy Birthday Bernadette ! 🎂🎁🎂🎁🎂🎁🎂🎁🎂🎁🎂🎁🐝
Sweet! Thank you, Gretchen!
Happy Birthday, Bernadette — it’s too bad Jack isn’t sending you a message for your birthday, from the great beyond — as that really would answer your question — unless he would refuse to send it, to support his side of the argument!
Vicki, LOL! Wouldn’t that be something!! So, the way I know him, he’d probably be too stubborn to admit that he was wrong and I was right 😉 And secondly, I think he is having way too much fun now swishing around the heavens in his healthy and youthful ethereal body. I would like to think that he has moved on and doesn’t look back. I’m okay with that. Thanks much for your birthday wishes!
The entire triple coincidence wouldn’t be complete without saying this movie was released the same banner year as the original Star Wars (1977)?
Just in case I wasn’t clear: The coincidences are having God and John Denver rolled into one movie released the same year as Star Wars, filling out Vicki’s own John Denver story.
It was noteworthy enough to snatch attention away from everyone for a minute; I am finished now.
Guru, this looks hilarious and I will watch the entire movie later. I get the triple coincident. What I thought another amazing coincident was that RBG died the same day as Jack. When I mentioned to Jim that Jack would be honored to arrive at the Pearly Gates together with such a distinguished human being, Jim responded, You got it the wrong way around, Jack would have thought that it was an honor for RBG to arrive at the same time as him. I think Jim was right…
And you are not snatching attention away… please carry on! There is room for all of us on this blog.
Hi Bernadette,
I hope you have fun watching the movie; I vaguely remembered watching it decades ago. It seems everyone has their own beliefs on the spectrum of spirituality and materialism, and I found it interesting that many of those closest to Jack, such as you and Louise, did not agree with him on this matter.
I honestly find it refreshing and inspiring that at least a FEW Primal patients believe in something beyond materialism. It seems as though almost all patients are hardcore atheists.
I, myself, am a cautious agnostic with materialist leanings…trying to be as grounded about it as I possibly can. This topic is H-U-G-E, so I won’t go any further (but I can and I will elaborate if you request it).
I do think it’s a shame RBG passed when she did (and Jack, too!) and it would have been nice for both to have been around longer, for sure.
Guru, when I started watching Oh, God! I realized that I had seen it before, but I watched it again. I was curious what my take was this time, as my spiritual beliefs have changed and grown over time. It still was hilarious, (in part because there is so much wrong with it on a spiritual level, in part because it was a comedy after all), and not the least bit close to my personal spiritual experience. The only thing I basically agreed with is when “God” said (paraphrased) that all the bad stuff on earth is not his responsibility but the people’s responsibility. For example: It is not “god” that allows war, and it is not up to “god” to stop the war; last time I checked, war was entirely created by man, and only man can stop it.
It would be interesting to find out how many primal people became atheists based on Janov’s theory. And maybe think that they can’t be spiritual lest they betray Primal. I never bought into that part of Primal. In my experience, the closer I get to my true self, after working out old feelings, the more I feel connected with the universal energy, which is as close to “god” as there is. Hmmm… I see I just opened a can of worms….
I am curious about your “cautious agnostic with materialist leanings”, so if you like, take it away….However, I can’t get into an argument about this topic. I have no desire to defend my view or proof anything to anybody. I think faith is very personal.
BTW, it is entirely possible to live in one family and love and accept each other, without having the same religious / spiritual views (smiley)
Bernadette, I just want you to know I read what you said above and I am currently pondering it; I am not sure how I am going to respond yet.
Let me immediately preface anything I might say with my simple, cautious thought there is a good chance of there being SOMETHING more than materialism.
I think it’s a mistake to completely close off all possibilities aside from eternal oblivion upon death.
Let me ruminate on this a bit and I will get back to you with a better response.
Guru, no problem, take your time. Once you have pondered about it, I’d be curious how you arrived at the thought that there might be “a good chance of there being something more than materialism”. Mostly I’d be interested in knowing whether that was/is an intellectual thought process or a perception // feeling / experiential process. Only if you are up to it. No pressure.
Bernadette..I’m going to have a very difficult time answering *how* I arrived at the thought of there being a ‘good chance of there being something more than materialism’ as it would require an enormous backstory presenting an undue burden to the blog. In a nutshell it’s a story of where I was always some sort of ‘believer’, albeit nonreligious, became sorely challenged by what I read in Janov’s books (even complaining to Vivian once about it), and gradually went back to believing again only in a different form than before. Art and Jack might have interpreted this by saying I simply had stronger defenses against feeling during my early days, weakened those defenses while going to LA and reading Art’s books, only to re-strengthen those defenses again when stepping away a bit from therapy….but I hope it’s something different than that.
What I would be more able to carry on doing is to present you with some links I showed in the past in a slapdash manner since my beliefs are unrefined, only an agglomeration of various related items which seem interesting or stimulating to me.
I will try to work on that shortly
Looking forward to it, Guru!
I completely agree, Bernadette, that faith is personal. I have no interest in arguing with anyone about it. My comment here is to provide you with a data point for you musing that “It would be interesting to find out how many primal people became atheists based on Janov’s theory”. My beliefs were formed before I ever knew of the Primal Scream and haven’t changed since. It’s interesting to me that I don’t think of myself at all as spiritual, yet friends tell me that I am.
Larry, thanks for your comment, much appreciated. For me, being spiritual doesn’t (necessarily) mean to follow a religion or specific belief system. Sitting under a tree and contemplating nature, opening your heart to the diversity and beauty of your surroundings, is as spiritual as it comes. It is the same energy that flows through everything. From that point of view, everyone is spiritual because we all have the capacity to connect to the natural energy around us. All it requires is to sit still, stop thinking for a moment, and open the heart and let the surrounding energy resonate with our inner flow of energy.
Bernadette,
I really hope you will keep writing on the blog!
you have so much to say and write beautifully.
and I like everything you share about yourself, and also liked very much everything I heard about Jack which I did not know so far.
it is great to hear about other persons who attach so much value to nature and our environment, and who support all kind of good causes actively.
and a fellow cat lover is always more than welcome, smiley!
I always would have liked to have a Siamese cat, but do not like to buy a cat from professional breeders.
if one would search a good home or end up in a shelter I would adopt it right away.
the very skinny ones don’t look very pretty, but the normally shaped Siamese are so incredibly beautiful!!!
it seems they are very talkative as well.
I sure hope your neighbor cat will definitively move into your house, seems better than staying on or under the car, that sounds too dangerous to me…
i liked the description of how she seemed to make an inspection round to check out the place, as to see if it would be acceptable for her or not, haha!
and happy birthday to you, those birthday cards sound so very special…
M
Margaret, thanks for the birthday wishes and your encouragement to keep writing. I appreciate it very much. It’s nice to know that you like reading my posts.
I feel very much connected to the natural environment. I cry when forests burn down, or the ice caps melt in record time, and animals lose their natural habitats and/or die. It hurts me when I see people litter the beaches and parks, such areas of outstanding beauty that they clearly use and enjoy but still dump their garbage there! I don’t get it! And my heart aches when I see square mile after square mile of Brazilian rainforest being slashed and burnt. I just do not understand why we have to destroy our own planet!
On the other hand, I enjoy the butterflies in my garden, watch spiders spin their webs, listen to the birds in the trees, and mostly, I watch my plants grow (smiley). There is something very satisfying and heart warming about it. Call it love.
So, Kona the Siamese is old now. She is not such a beauty anymore, that is, since I have been feeding her regularly, she has improved somewhat. The front part of her is clean and smooth fur, the back part is all scraggly and unkempt. Like she can’t clean herself properly anymore. She walks gingerly, like she might have pains in her hips or spine. I am always astonished that she can still make it onto my car to sleep on the sunroof. I am worried most days when I don’t see her right away; she might have crawled into a corner somewhere to die. My neighbor told me that she wandered into his house one day many years ago, a stray cat, or a run away maybe. She is used to being outside and very savvy when it comes to avoiding cars and other dangers. I instantly liked her personality, the attitude she shows, like “this is my world now, please respect my space” kind of thing (smiley). I keep thinking, as long as she eats she is okay. I have not seen her yet today, which is unusual for this time in the afternoon. I have looked for her in all the usual places, to no avail.
And by the way, yes, I am a cat lover, but I am also a dog lover (which I didn’t know until a few years ago)! I hope that’s not blasphemy haha!
Hi Bernadette, when you say that Kona’s back is scraggly and unkempt, what does that mean? Does it mean that her fur is matted? Once matting takes place, it usually needs to be shaved or cut off as it is impossible for them to properly clean. My cat had that and I had go through and cut all of the matting away. He was as good as new after that.
Hi Chris, Kona’s fur is not totally matted, just not as clean as around her head, chest and front legs/paws. In the meantime a lot has happened. After I had not seen her all day yesterday and this morning, I started to look for her. Finally found her under the truck of another neighbor; she was barely breathing and could hardly lift her head. I notified her owner, and then drove them to the emergency vets, as the neighbor doesn’t have a car. She is on an IV drip at them moment, and my neighbor just got notified that she would either need to stay at the hospital for a week, costing an enormous amount of money, or otherwise they recommend to put her down. My neighbor then asked that they drain Kona’s lungs and asked for antibiotics that he can give her at home. He said he’ll pick her up in a couple of hours. They will take a culture of the lung fluid to determine the best antibiotic. That is, if she is going to survive the next two days. I am so sad! Thanks for caring, Chris!
of course Bernadette so sorry to hear this! I’ll be thinking about Kona and hoping that she will pull through!!
My wife and I haven’t been doing well lately, which is bothering me, but last night we bonded over how terrible the presidential debate was. If you could even call it a debate. I don’t think I could take four more years of Trump. Also, with all that has recently happened in the world I miss Jack’s voice, as I know he followed the news closely, like I do.
Phil
Bernadette,
Yes, at times it is extremely difficult having very poor eyesight.
officially I am blind but luckily there is a tiny bit of blurry peripheral sight left in one eye, better than nothing.
I make the best of things, at times it creates no problem at all, depending of the circumstances, or nothing insurmountable, at other times it is very painful, the restriction on social interactions, the isolation and all kind of frustrations.
I am doing a bachelor study of psychology at Open University, am now doing the third module of statistics, and struggled all afternoon with the website of the course, mostly in vain.
but well, I have successfully done more than half of the courses, but facing the extra corona complications at times now it feels hopeless.
but well, I don’t easily give up…
the good thing about losing my eyesight while doing therapy, is that it forced me into feelings af need and vulnerability.
i started off my therapy saying ‘I don’t need anybody!’, and felt proud of that, an illusion in fact but I had little to no awareness of my feelings back then.
but losing my sight forced me to accept I do need other people and have many fears and feel very vulnerable, in many ways other than just the eyesight stuff.
I think it made me a more gentle person and gave me more empathy, or at least pusched the primal process a bit, many times.
still life is not easy at times, for years now I have been single and wished I had a loving partner by my side again…
but better alone than in bad company of course, and I still have my precious furry buddies around, always good for a smile and loads of affection…
M
Margaret, I would imagine that living with your type of impairment would first force you to slow down and then practice a lot of patience. You would have to open and sharpen your other senses exponentially in order to compensate for the loss of sight. Then start to rely on the other perceptions in order to make sense of your environment. Then add perseverance and tenacity to keep going. And with all of this you would need a huge amount of courage to overcome your fears and daily challenges, in practical and emotional situations. All these attributes I see in you. I see your strength as well as your vulnerability. It takes strength to make a life and it takes strength to be vulnerable, I think. I can imagine that it “pushed your primal process” as you said because I can see your empathy and gentleness and kindness that you extend to people (and cats smiley). You have excellent insights into people’s behaviors, feelings and intentions, as well as intelligence to express your thoughts and feelings in a clear way; I have read many of your comments on the blog that confirms this. It is astonishing what you have accomplished in spite of your impairment – your studies and your personal growth. I am in awe.
The only tiny hint I get for what it could be like, is when I get up at night and feel my way around the furniture and to the bathroom door in the dark. An intense few seconds!
I hope someone gentle and kind (and funny and smart) will show up at your doorstep – soon! You deserve to be loved and cherished by someone special, Margaret.
Any news about Patrick’s dog?
Phil,I would have liked to be able to watch the entire debate, but here I could only see extracts of it and comments about it.
it seems it was a depressing and frustrating spectacle.
probably Trump was afraid to give Joe B some time to express his views and ideas, and just kept interrupting him to impede painful truths about his own incompetence.
but sadly enough as far as I heard by the comments he mostly succeeded and irritated JB enough to also make him become personal and using insults.
there were comments of Belgian people living in the States, most of them disapproving strongly of Trumps behavior, and one of them a Trump fan, whose father in law is all into trump. but she said even he did say Trumps behavior was childish…
it is so frustrating Trump already says he won’t accept a defeat, and that he has a majority in the Supreme Court.
that is so out of line, that those judges are politically assigned.
no independence of justice at all there!
not uplifting, we in Belgium here are not much better, after the elections it took about 500 days, (!) for the political parties to form a coalition that agreed on a program and will now finally be forming a government!
Jack would have loads of comments about the absurdity of it all…
still I am glad we will finally have a government again, and it is center and left and the green parties included.
the alternative would have been right and extreme right, a nightmarish idea…
M
As proof that I only read Playboy for the articles, here are some excerpts from Trump’s 1990 interview with the magazine.
https://www.playboy.com/read/playboy-interview-donald-trump-1990
“Every successful person has a very large ego….far greater egos than you will ever understand.”
“I will send people around to my buyers to test their honesty by offering them trips and other things. I’ve been surprised that some people least likely to accept a trip from a contractor did and some of the most likely did not. You can never tell until you test; the human species is interesting in that way. So to me, friendship can be really tested only in bad times.”
“I instinctively mistrust many people. It is not a negative in my life but a positive. Playboy wouldn’t be talking to me today if I weren’t a cynic.”
“I am very skeptical about people; that’s self-preservation at work. I believe that, unfortunately, people are out for themselves. At this point, it’s to many people’s advantage to like me. Would the phone stop ringing, would these people kissing ass disappear if things were not going well?”
“I enjoy testing friendship…. Everything in life to me is a psychological game, a series of challenges you either meet or don’t. I am always testing people who work for me.”
“I’m a strong believer in genes, that my kids can be brought up without adversity and respond well if they have the genes. I have a friend who is extraordinarily smart. But he never became successful, because he couldn’t take pressure. He was buying a home and it was literally killing him—a man of forty with an I.Q. of probably a hundred and ninety. He called me one day for the umpteenth time, worrying about his mortgage and I was sitting in my chair, thinking to myself, Here I am, buying the shuttle, the Plaza Hotel, and I don’t lose an ounce of sleep over any of it. That’s lucky genes.”
I want to add that I posted the Trump material because it seemed interesting to see such an old interview and how things progressed (or perhaps regressed?) over 30 years’ time. It just seemed interesting from a forensic psychology standpoint, and not indicative of my own life’s philosophies.
Margaret,
I think Trump’s behavior during the debate was a reflection of his character rather than any strategy. In any case it didn’t work. I doubt he’ll win over any undecided voters with that performance. When given the opportunity last night, Trump failed to denounce white supremacy. If fact he supported it. He didn’t agree to accept the results of the election if he loses. I hope he loses badly because otherwise we may be in for a lot stress, turmoil, and possibly violence after election day.
Phil
This was written by Pru ( we had some trouble with the log in )
About Jack ….
Although I was not close to Jack, I have shared many a retreat and group with him during my Primal Therapy years and he is certainly one of the people who really stands out in my memory. I can picture him so easily. If I’m honest, I thought he would never last until 87 as he was always so poorly – and talked about it frequently – right from when I knew him 30+ years ago. It’s strange but I can’t stop thinking about him now and feeling disbelief that he is no longer ‘out there’ on our earth somewhere. And, as someone else said – it really makes you think of your own mortality. Anyway, Jack – bloody-minded; irreverent, kicked against the traces, unconventional, sought (and always got) attention; argumentative; world’s expert and very funny. He was also the last person I would have expected to see in the middle of an LA Primal Group – Jack from ‘Up North’ in England with a pony tail, ruling the roost.
The last time I saw Jack, we were all leaving a Santa Barbara retreat and up drove a shiny sports car with two handsome, brown, muscly young men in it. They stopped, waited and Jack hopped in, grinning from ear to ear for his audience, before his chauffeurs sped off. Only Jack!
Having read the blog for the first time, I was really moved by how matter-of-factly he approached dying. No euphemisms or dodging or trying to get better. He swatted off everyone suggesting remedies and faced it full on – leaving room for the younger ones to come after. What an inspiration! John, my husband (ex PT patient too) and I have both vowed to remember Jack’s approach and do our best to follow in his footsteps. Hats off to Jack and thanks for that example.
Thank you for including me in this memorial service – I was very touched – especially by the tender way you, Chris, had put together the film. I never knew that Jack liked John Denver – so do I – hugely….. especially ’Sunshine’.
To all Jack’s family – particularly Jim – and friends, my thoughts are with you. Big characters leave big holes in life and Jack was certainly that.
Primal Therapy people – seeing your lovely familiar faces on the Zoom wake was an unexpected treat – a mix of nostalgia, fondness and gratitude for those days. Virtual hugs.
Prue
Prue, I loved reading your beautifully written depiction of Jack, especially loved the expressions ‘bloody-minded’, ‘irreverent’ and ‘kicked against the traces’ that are so very fitting, yep all that and proud of it, too! And yet, how does the saying go: we die the way we live – I think Jack died with the same emotional honesty and integrity as he lived, being true to himself to the very end. Thank you so much for this, I will send it on to Jim and Louise.
Bernadette
thank you for sharing Prue, well written, and accurate depiction of Jack. loved this, “sought (and always got) attention” so true! and he did face his death the way he faced life, head-on, and only with the fullness of feeling! say hi to John for me.
Pru, I love what you wrote , it was all really beautiful. “ Big characters leave big holes” ! That is exactly right. What a wonderful way to put it! Gretchen
I fell in love with this song and video today, of a dog and cat growing up together, and it made me tear up, and of course, think about my dog. There is something sad about the song, and the implied loss of friends.
Margaret, the puppy is about the same size as the cat, but much younger. At the beginning, the cat is bothered by the rambunctious puppy, who always wants to play, but they progress to be tolerating friends, and then best friends sleeping and grooming together, with the adult dog much larger than his cat brother. So the video is followed by the lyrics of “Best Friends”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nqBhgjQMpzo
Remember all the days
We’d while the hours away
We had a kingdom made of sand but didn’t care
Now I think of all the times we shared,
And i wonder where you are and if you’ll play
Come knockin’ at my door
And I wonder will our roads cross someday
Been missed forever more,
Remembering our time
What’s yours was always mine
Nothing but trouble but it led to so much fun
We were wild ones always on the run
And now I wonder where you are and if you’ll play
Come knockin’ at my door
And I wonder will our roads cross someday
Best friends forever more,
And now I wonder where you are and if you’ll play
Come knockin’ at my door
And I wonder will our roads cross someday
Best friends forever more.
Writer(s): Ashley Clark, Tom Hillock, David Krutten Lyrics
Vicki, oh wow! That’s just too cute for words! It made me smile so much. It’s endearing and heartwarming. You must miss your dog very much 😦 Do you still get to visit Baby sometimes?
Bernadette, I do still get to see Baby, but it’s become harder, because one of her moms is a nurse in an Orange County hospital — and she gets pulled into their Covid unit sporadically, after which she has to quarantine for two weeks. So that has happened several times, and is happening again this coming weekend — Erin gave me the option to visit, but she is not even visiting her mom. I miss Baby, and it seems kind of silly, but if I went and caught it, I would feel very stupid. Even when we distance in their yard, I know I can’t wear my mask the whole time — the dogs won’t like it, and neither would I!
Baby has had some problems in the past week, since they ran out of one of her cardiac meds, and were not able to buy it anywhere! Finally they were able to order a larger dose they will have to cut in half, and their vet found a sample to give them meanwhile, so Baby got some last night. Her heart is enlarged, so the valve doesn’t quite fit, and causes her to cough & pass out, from not enough oxygen. The meds control that, and one of their friends’ dog has been carrying on for two more years with meds. When Baby was fainting, she was so scared and confused, I saw on her face (months ago).
Vicki, I hate how Covid makes everything so much more complicated. Could you meet at a dog park instead at her home? There would be more room to spread out and you wouldn’t have to wear your mask all the time. Unless doggie parks are closed because of Covid, I don’t know. In any case, I am sad for you that you don’t get to visit Baby as much as you would like to. May her new mom can send you videos? That’s not the same of course but it might help. I am also sad to hear that Baby has heart problems. It’s heartbreaking to see animals suffer and being confused because they don’t understand. I hope the medication can help her a lot and that she has more time. And hopefully Covid will pass soon, so that you can visit more often.
I meant to tell you earlier when you sent the above video. Whenever I am stuck inside my head and don’t know what to feel or do, I go on YouTube and watch videos of cats and dogs play. That always puts me in touch with my heart energy. I can feel myself again. Pets have such great healing power!!
Yes, Bernadette, Erin sends me pics of Baby, when she can — Baby doesn’t always enjoy it. I think dog parks are closed, since it would encourage people to not distance, too. And I watch dog and cat videos almost every day, at least one — or horses, or other farm animals playing.
I don’t mean to spoil the general mood of feeling beloved and the pets we love, etc….but does anyone have a titanium dieter’s box we can put food inside with a timed lock which can’t be opened for up to a week under any circumstances?
I tried these Jocasta brand maple cream filled rolled crispy wafers from Greece and the addiction is destroying me. Take my advice and don’t start eating them:
I briefly thought a timed lockbox for your food or smartphone would be a great million dollar idea, but it has already been shown on Shark Tank and several models are on sale on Amazon.
Nothing new under the sun anymore.
Guru, that was so interesting — in my entire life, it has never even occurred to me that people had invented this to control themselves, and certainly never the idea to do this. Growing up in my family, we only ever had will-power for anything, so we either gave in, or did not. This is just a different way of thinking about it. To spend money on something like this, would have been laughed at, and embarrassing, and felt totally foolish — because for no money spent, they could put whatever you want to avoid — in the trash, end of story. To me, it’s a different world, where people use something external for control — Partial control that lets you feel you are “in control”. Never entered my mind. I think the biggest meaning is that we had no money for “such nonsense”, as well as the belief that “we just need to control ourselves” personally, as if that’s always doable. Or painfully humiliating and to be hidden, if you can’t. A lot of complex shit.
I read some of the reviews, wondering what the heck people used it for. One was brilliant for keeping his elderly mother independent, “who frequently confused the days of the week & subsequently took 2 or 3 days of her meds all in one day.” So he bought 7, labelled and filled them all once a week, and programmed to open one each day at 6 am.
Another bought 10 (at $70 !), each filled with 1 pack of cigarettes from a carton, set to open 1 per 24 hrs, for her mother who “was driving me crazy every day for more and more cigarettes. She promised me no more than a pack a day, so that was the deal.” “It actually gave us quality time together not fighting about her smoking 2 packs a day.” So it worked for them, so to speak.
And one woman used it to lock away her cellphone an hour at a time, over and over. The end of her review was “This product is a great amputation of our external organ, the cellular telephone. I shall now lock my phone away now because I just spent 15 minutes writing a review on Amazon.”
Vicki, well that’s part of the fun! Being laughed at for using this locking device helps to make it a great conversation piece, wouldn’t it? Even if looked upon derisively?
Perhaps with time, the naysayers would lose their own willpower and give in to the wisdom of the locking device.
Putting those maple sticks in a plastic box wouldn’t be totally safe for me, as I might smash it, so titanium would work better.
This brings up a weird sidebar point for me. As Jack himself used to tell me over the phone, “You have to have a certain tenacity (a rugged persistence) to be a successful computer programmer.”
How right he was!
So…I made a deal with myself since I have a particularly complex code package I need to complete. I bought a 6-pack of beer, put it in the fridge, and strictly told myself I must finish all the code first before I can drink any alcohol at all.
That was two weeks ago.
The beer is still in the fridge, the reward lost its meaning along with my desire to finish the coding.
Sometimes the reward can lose its original value due to some complex internal mental hijacking as I appear to have done here.
From Vicki: I sent Chris’s links to Sue P. in England, who was unable to come to Jack’s Memorial, and she replied with this note, and said I could add it to the Blog.
Hi Vicki,
Thanks so much for forwarding Jack’s picture tribute, which I found extremely moving. Jack was someone who lit up the world around him in every way imaginable. He was kind, generous and always such fun to be with. I’m glad he managed to live to the grand age of 87 and that he knew what it is to love and be loved.
With love,
Sue
Sue, thank you so much for the kind words about Jack!
thanks so much, Vicki, I sowed it to a friend that was over for lunch and she loved it!
now I just forwarded it to my brother and sister, some sunshine in these rainy days full of depressing news.
but hey, after 496 days we finally have a government, and at the inauguration the two top men of different parties even expressed how they found out they really like working together, while they are from the left and the other from the more right side, and from two different language parts of Belgium.
that is refreshing, kind of the opposite of Trump and also from some other politicians over here!
Bernadette, thank you so much for your kind words, part of me can let it in and part of me cannot, (yet?)
your Siamese foster cat might like the car roof and the warmth as it might diminish the pain in her joints.
hope you can spoil her and pamper her and enjoy her company for many years to come!
Just heard Trump and the First Lady have Covid! G.
Yes, I heard that too, regarding the trumps; must be that Karma I’ve heard so much about.
Vicki, I know what you mean about using an external gadget to keep things away from yourself. Whatever happened to discipline. Though, those people in the reviews had good practical use for the locking device, didn’t they– very creative of them. Thanks for your perspective and those review comments.
Yes, Gretchen, I could hardly contain my glee! Even though some tiny part of me feels “it’s mean”.
He told a political dinner just Thursday night that “the end of the pandemic is in sight.” Covid19 is killing about 1000 more Americans every day, yet he asserted that it was under control and insisted that the country was “rounding the corner” to the end of the crisis. He has scorned scientists, saying they were mistaken on the severity of the situation.
And LoL! I did not remember: Under the Presidential Succession Act, if both Mr. Trump and Mr. Pence were unable to serve, Speaker Nancy Pelosi of California would step in.
Sylvia, Karma, indeed!
I’d be careful here, because if Trump pulls through this with few or no symptoms (a definite possibility) he could say, “See? It will disappear like a miracle. It’s not severe. Businesses should re-open. You just have to have good genes like me, etc.”
Guru, he could say that but….. the over 1 million deaths speak for themselves… he cannot deny that
Perhaps it’s Fake News!
Yes, Jo, Covid19 is so fake, such a hoax, that without him doing anything about it, he caught it! A little justice.
😂
About Trump’s Covid19, favored comments I saw today:
“It’s the first test he’s ever passed on his own.”
“I hear he’s now in hypocritical condition.”
“Couldn’t have happened to a more deserving guy — except Mitch McConnell.”
And a friend who seldom writes anything on-line, posted: “Okay. We all know that Donald is incapable of empathy. The only way he will ever understand what the millions of people felt when they got sick with the coronavirus is to feel it himself. So, Donald, no sympathy. I want you to feel every single nasty symptom that the victims of your no action, disinformation policy felt. Every one of them: fever, joint pain, gasping for breath. I want you to understand this at a personal level. Get it, feel it. No sympathy.”
Ex-POTUS Jimmy Carter turned 96 years old yesterday, which is semi-amazing all its own. I once shook hands with Rosalynn while Jimmy threw some candy at us in a crowd. A fond childhood memory.
One year during his presidency he was entitled to pay no federal taxes due to huge tax write-offs on his peanut farm.
He felt so bad about it he voluntarily sent $6,000 to the Treasury as a voluntary gift.
the first song the radio here played after sharing the news about Trump having been infected with Corona, was John Lennon’s ‘instant karma is gonna get you’…
a large part of the world’s population is probably sharing your and mine feeling, Vicki.
I would not regret he would become ill for a long time, long enough to not be a president anymore.
of course his second in line is not a pleasant option either, seems he is worse than Trump himself, and not so openly crazy…
hope Joe Biden gets elected without unnecessary discussions but I guess that is too much to hope for…
M
The news about Trump getting Covid has brightened my day, I have to say. I’m guessing the next presidential debate will have to be canceled. Also, my feeling is I hope he has a bad case, that would shut him up.
His supporters might want to think more now on mask wearing and attending rallies.
Phil
My boss came over this morning to see if I had heard the news on Trump. He said something like “maybe there is a god” and “it feels like Christmas”. I have to agree.
I wonder whether he’ll treat himself and drink some bleach or take the advice of his scientifically trained doctors.
i’m referring to Trump of course.
It’s always interesting to me that people say “there is a god” when things go their way, but don’t believe there is god when things don’t go their way. Just a thought…hmmm…
I think my boss was joking as he seems to be an atheist. I haven’t thought that atheism was really a part of primal theory, or at least not an important part.
I was already a nonbeliever before starting the therapy, I go by evidence and I haven’t seen anything convincing.
Phil, yes, I get it, it’s just a phrase…. Thanks for your input on the atheism/spirituality question. Much appreciated. I understand that you have not seen any convincing evidence. Truth is, there is no evidence that can be seen or touched or grasped with the intellectual mind. It is all on a more subtle level and therefore a perception outside of the five senses . That’s my experience. Thanks, Phi!
How does someone develop the psychological fortitude able to withstand hundreds of millions of people hating him enough to wish physical ill-will upon him? In the 1990 interview I posted earlier Trump talked about the ability to withstand pressure, maybe some clues lie therein?
He is just a representative of the elite, a symbol of a larger problem, anyway.
I suppose if hundreds of millions of people hurl bad sentiments towards you, you can sit back and laugh at how you successfully tapped into the emotional brains of so many people. An incredibly powerful caricature, for sure!
Guru, because negative attention is better than no attention. He will do and say anything just to hog the attention of the media. There is a psychological theory about that, I’m sure.
I used to complain about how 9/11 was the most hideously and grotesquely overhyped event since the dawn of cuneiform symbols while millions of people die in car traffic with no one giving a damn. Trump alone will ultimately supersede all of this with literal septillions, perhaps octillions, of collective words spoken about the man worldwide when all is said and done.
But I’m sure it isn’t satisfying his repressed real need which has nothing to do with being president.
Phil, I won’t judge you for adding your small part to the octillions of cumulative words spoken about him, but I do think questions such as, “How did we as a society become so addicted to talking about this man?” start to become worthwhile to consider.
Guru, I had no interest in Trump whatsoever until he ran for president. Isn’t it clear that’s why people are addicted to talking about him? Not to mention because of the outrageous things he says and does as president? Also, the interest in how he got there, how we can get rid of him etc.
Phil
This isn’t just about you at all, Phil, but rather I am asking why society paid so much attention to him. I, myself, bought a paperback copy of “The Art of the Deal” during the 1980’s when I was a kid, more than thirty years before the presidency. Still have the book in storage somewhere.
Guru,
He thrust himself into the limelight starting in New York. Writing a book, opening casinos, and being on TV must have helped.
Phil
Building skyscrapers and hotels named after himself, all helped, I would say.
If you were to build a tall building in your town and named it Guru Tower, people would start to talk about you.
Guru, Sorry that I’m adding to the talking statistics about Trump. I can relate to his need to get attention (but not from the whole world) and feel important. His act-out is hugely more successful than mine ever was, but I wasn’t that driven, and didn’t start out with the advantages he had. Also I’ve been working on feeling those leftover needs from childhood for years.
Phil
Margaret and Chris, I am sorry, I have such sad news. My neighbor just told me that Kona, the Siamese passed away early this morning. He said he cradled her in his arms as she drew her last breath. I can’t believe how much it touched me and is (still) affecting me, I cried very deeply for a long time. I had gotten so attached to her over the last year or so. I’d like to think that I made her last months a bit more bearable and pleasant by feeding her regularly and providing a comfortable place for her to hang out. I am also glad that she was able to die in his arms, rather than in the sterile environment of a vet clinic, or heaven forbid, somewhere under a parked car, alone. She was such a beauty and a sweetie. I will always remember her vivid blue eyes. So sad!
oh no Bernadette, so sorry for your loss! The way you wrote about her in the past few days was so tender and showed just how much she meant to you. So sad indeed!
Thank you, Chris. I was so used to having her around; she had such a gentle, sweet energy about her. She helped me open my heart. My neighbor just told me that he will bury her in the garden between the rose bushes. I think that’s nice, those are her familiar surroundings.
Bernadette, I am glad Kona was able to enjoy your care for the past year — 18 is quite old for a cat, I think, although I have heard rarely of a cat living to 30. I once temporarily “had” a small Siamese in the ’70’s, who was pregnant, and an older male cat made the mistake of trying to attack her under my car in the driveway. We heard an awful racket, then the big cat shot out from underneath, and went flying down the street. She belonged to my roommate, but had her babies in my bed, under the covers in the night. I felt honored.
I hope at some point you will have another cat you can care for, longer.
Vicki, that’s a cute story about the feisty Siamese who had her babies in your bed, thanks for sharing! Kona never had kittens as far as I know. I would imagine my neighbor had her spayed when he took her in from the streets in the Philippines. Maybe that added to her longevity. Yes, I hope, one day when we are more permanently settled, I will have my own cat AND a dog! (whenever that will be – eyes rolling!)
Bernadette, Your story about Kona walking through your home and giving Mark a dirty look made me laugh! That kitty knew she was in charge! I’m so sorry to hear she died but it is nice to know she will be buried in familiar surroundings. I’m pretty certain you could use a break from pain for awhile. Take care of yourself ! 😦 Gretch
Gretchen, yes, thanks! I couldn’t wash her last paw prints off my car this morning… It has indeed been a “decennium horribilis” — enough already! I wonder, can one get used to grieving as a permanent ingredient in one’s life? B.
Trace the outlines of the paw prints with a stencil and have a spot paint job on that specific outline to memorialize Kona forever (opposing shade of the car’s color for the paws suggested….ie. dark green painted paw shapes on light green car or vice versa, etc.)?
Guru, good idea! I don’t know if I want to do it, but the idea is creative and sweet!
The job would be a bit of a hassle, yet it would pay subtle dividends for years to come and spraying an opposing shade of the car color would keep it subtle and tasteful, not too distracting. Unfortunately you’ll have to decide pretty quickly before the original marks wash off. Best of luck if you give it a whirl.
I actually went to check the car after I wrote back and looked for the prints. They are already pretty wishy-washy, it has been three days at least since she had been on the car. And if you have ever lived in LA, you must know how dusty and dirty the cars get. So, although your idea is a good, one, I don’t think I will do it. That said, I might just put some paw print stickers across the rear window onto the roof, just for kicks. I will think about it….
Paw stickers sound like a great idea, too! Maybe even a cup of (Kona) coffee outline sticker next to it? Good stuff, our collaboration has revealed strong potential for fruitful future creative outcomes. I’d like to hear what you eventually settle on doing.
I will work on the spiritual stuff soon, as well, but most of what I’d share would be a re-hashing of what I’ve posted in the past.
Funny, but I don’t want to advertise for coffee, especially as I don’t drink any, haha. Actually she was named after the beautiful Kona District of Hawaii, not the coffee (smile). As far as your spiritual endeavor goes, please do not burden yourself with getting more information together. I am quite satisfied with what you have written so far, I somewhat get a sense of where you are with it, I appreciate your back and forth struggle to believe because I can relate to it, and I like your statement from earlier “there is a good chance of there being SOMETHING more than materialism.” An answer to my question as to how you arrived at this conclusion is not relevant. So, no sweat, Guru!
I’ve never been to Hawaii & I drink 6+ cups of coffee per day, so we cancel each other out. I will still work on the spirit project, anyway.
Bernadette,
That is so sad…
it is a comfort though the neighbour hald her in his arms while she passed away, at least she must have felt loved and protected…
i feel overwhelmed with grief and loss about to strike lately.
my oldest friend told me yesterday about her 34 year old daughter, who has two young kids, who had her second severe mS attack within ten years, a bad sign for the rest of its course.
she had already serious paralysis effects in the past and now the lower part of her body feels entirely numb and she has severe spells of dizziness all day long.
it is so sad, she is a fine very smart and nice young woman now having to cope with the idea of a continuous decline of health …
and yesterday during a visit to my mom i found out she doesn’t recognize herself anymore in the mirror, so they had ot put paper of her large mirror as they said she starts arguing with her own reflection, which of course does not back down.
then we noticed she was talking to the small mirror in her bathroom, and my halfsister just let it go on, saying how cute it was, until I went over and gently showed and explained to my mom it was a mirror.
at some point she said,’oh, good you tell me!’, which is exactly my point. it is painful to see how for example my sister does not see beyond what she perceives as ‘cute’, and does not understand the situation can easily deteriorate in frustration and confusion for my mom, so every bit of reality we can still give matters.
mom is almost 90 and lately she is showing more and more signs of well, really getting older…
also a caretaker came into the room, I was sitting on the bed next to my mom who was sitting beside me, but my sister and the caretaker started talking more and more loudly about issues not at all related to the present setting or my mom, until I realized myself I really had to shout to my mom to make myself understood and lost my patience enough to turn around and say ‘hello!…’
they fell still and I asked if they could turn the volume down a bit as my throat was already sore from raising my own voice to my mom.
the caretaker left soon after, but it all made me feel so alone, my sister lives so much in her own bubble driven by her need for attention and appreciation.
this was the first time since february she accompanied me to my mom again, and we only had one hour to be tere, but she spent so little time connecting with my mom or with me in some real kind of way.
tomorrow I will go with my brother to visit our mom, which is ok of course, but also has its limits and frustrations…
this morning feels a bit doom and gloom like, and all I seem to be able to do to cope is to start dealing with the daily chores to feel somewhat in control and not entirely hopeless…
M
I’m sad for you having to cope with all that loss Margaret.
I know it is sad and painful Margaret, but I had to laugh at the idea of your mom arguing with her big mirror, “which of course does not back down.” That is so much like the videos of a cat or puppy confronting “another one” in a mirror. I’m glad you were able to point her to the reality, however temporary that might be. And I agree that “dealing with daily chores” or “the business of our life” can be all we have to alleviate the “doom and gloom” of hopelessness. I feel like the hopelessness of my infancy is almost there all the time, often just out of reach, leaking into the present, interfering with my fiunctioning, and just waiting to take over, so I can feel it for another intense episode, which gets me some relief, from acceptance of reality — then I can usually rest, and nap, before moving on again to function.
Margaret,
I know, it’s so sad, sweet blue-eyed Kona is no more! My neighbor wrote to me: “She was Queen of my house for over 18 years, she lived with me in the Philippines and Mexico before we came here; at least she died in the comfort of my arms.” And he sent me a gorgeous picture of her from when she was younger. So sweet!
I hear you about your sense of doom and gloom. The sad reality about your friend’s daughter and your mother getting older are culminating in a feeling of grief and loss about to strike. It is a horrible place to be in, waiting for the inevitable and at the same time hoping it will never arrive. It all touched me what you wrote, but what affected me most (and made me angry) was your half sister and the caretaker talking over your conversation with your mother. It’s so insensitive and disrespectful. I’m glad you spoke up! Don’t they get it? These are your most precious moments with your mom. I imagine that you would want to cherish every single moment with her, not knowing how much longer she will be around. And I agree with you, that every bit of reality you can give her matters, after all this is the time when you are able to still connect with her on a significant level. I hope your visit tomorrow will be more peaceful and satisfying.
This post is strictly meant to fulfill my commitment to share some more details about spirituality with Bernadette, It is NOT intended to start any arguments with those who disagree with it.
I fully understand that many people have made total peace with death being the final end of all experience forever, and I do appreciate the logical allure of that argument along with the simplicity it can bring to a non-believer’s everyday living.
OK, let me move on, then…
Bernadette..
The first steps of my shying away from death being the end of everything forever lies within this essay by Tom Clarke. I strongly encourage you to try out the thought exercise in his essay:
https://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/death/death-nothingness-and-subjectivity
(Yes, I’ve posted this a couple times before on the blog)
That entire Naturalism website is pretty interesting, and the philosophy rhymes a bit with Baruch Spinoza’s ‘God is indifferent, this universe is indifferent’ ideas.
Naturalism also seems to fit quite well with the simulation argument
All sorts of stuff about that here:
https://www.simulation-argument.com/
(Nick Bostrom is the original proponent of the argument)
And here, once again with Elon Musk:
https://www.vox.com/2016/6/2/11837608/elon-musk-simulation-argument
If we accept the possibility that we may be in a simulation created by a stupefyingly advanced civilization with technology post-dating ours by billions of years, we have to understand that our definition of what a *computer* is may be hopelessly outdated. What form factor would such computing be like so far in the future? I have NO idea, but the speculations here are tantalizing.
And finally I always see David Eagleman’s “Possibilianism” ideas as interesting to pursue:
https://eagleman.com/blog/why-i-am-a-possibilian
Given the exciting direction the simulation argument seems to be carrying everything nowadays, it appears Dr. Eagleman can see some potential in narrowing down some of his far reaching possibilities of what an afterlife, if any, would look like.
Again, ALL of what is said above could be wrong and it’s simply ‘lights out’ for all of us upon death; I just happen to be a bit more cautious about embracing that approach than Jack or Dr. Janov were.
I hope this helps to show what I, as a cautious agnostic, happen to find stimulating.
As a final note, I re-examined my coffee drinking habits and it appears to be more like 3-4 cups per day for me, along with tea, juice, plant-based milks, etc. I just wanted to correct my previous post.
Think back to the Middle Ages, just a mere 600-700 years ago. Would the inhabitants of that era possibly grasp today’s 3-D printers, smartphones, high-speed computer workstations? Heck no! And that was just 600-700 years ago..
Now imagine a civilization a BILLION years in the future. What sort of technology would it have? How mind-blowingly incomprehensible would it be?
Guru, thanks for this information. I will work through it and get back to you… Give me a few days, I am dealing with some other heavy duty stuff right now that takes all my brain power.
That sounds strikingly similar to what I say to many folks when I must beggar off a conversation. Do you receive a lot of complaints about that like I do? Just curious, no hurry or anything. I just wanted to fulfill what I promised to send out, and I am good with that.
Guru, I don’t need to “beggar off a conversation” but I knew you would understand (wink). Fact is, I have not even dealt with all my birthday mail, and then with the recent deaths, I was triggered profoundly. I’ve lost in the last decade 11 family members and in addition to that, friends, co-workers, and someone I was very close with. It just hit me really hard. When I need to deal with such profound pain, I usually withdraw from the world, go inside and be still. Give me a few more days before my brain can take in the information you sent. Thanks.
Larry,
thanks.
tonight I feel a bit better.
two phone calls made a big difference, one with my sister, whom I called for some trivial information but also as I felt like talking with her to feel if things were ok.
she told me a long story about her childhood which suddenly reappeared in the present, bringing up a lot of feelings for her and her husband.
it was good she could speak about it, for a long time, and at times cry as well.
for me it felt good to listen and feel connected and she felt relieved afterwards.
later on I called my mom, and that phone call also was nice, I could listen to her brining up some problems she had had during the day, not very clear what the specifics were but I could reassure her easily, and it was nice to tell each other we love each other very much, wished her goodnight and sweet dreams, about that last part she said she would certainly do her best for it, smiley.
it probably helped i told her a couple of times my brother and me will visit her tomorrow afternoon.
before that I did do a lot of little chores around the place and even studied some statistics…
so after all the day was not too bad…
early this morning thinking of my mom’s example to make the best of things helped me to get up and to start being active…
and then my cats helped as well to improve my mood of course…
tomorrow visit to mom, zoom group and then a fairly busy week ahead.
and Trump and the unspoken details of his state to be curious about…
M
I’m this morning at the tail end of a cold that I started to feel symptoms of on Monday morning. Because I have asthma and am getting older, breathing seems to be getting even more difficult when I have a cold. Life sure loses its luster when I have breathing trouble, and of course my anxiety was triggered some more because though It felt like a cold it could be COVID. Then there is the concern that if I have COVID I could spread it to my friends and community, so on Thursday I decided and arranged to get a COVID test on Friday. While waiting a few days for the result, I had to remain in isolation, which for the sake of my friends and community I was motivated to do. But if not motivated for them, I would resent the restriction on my life. I think I understand the anti-masker COVID denial stance. I wonder if I am a closet red-neck. 🙂
Yesterday I received the negative COVID test result, and after having had sipped a lot of warm ginger tea for the past while to soothe my throat, I am breathing more easily and normally. Life has allure again. But the older I get and have these cold or flu induced difficult breathing episodes, the more I can feel how if I don’t get run over by a bus first, some day when I’m old, feeble and ill life won’t feel worth it anymore and I’ll be ready to go. I just hope I won’t go the way of my uncle. He died of pulmonary fibrosis. For years it was harder and harder for him to breathe, until he finally admitted himself to hospital, where his struggle worsened and continued for a couple of weeks until the end. When I was younger, when I got sick I automatically expected to bounce back, I never gave a thought to my approaching end.
But today life is good and in the years ahead there are things I want to do, experiences I want to have and want to be less afraid to let people into my life, less alone. Sometimes in my primals Margaret, the past loss that feels the most painful is not having had more connection with the important people in my life. I think I understand the intensity of feelings you must have for your mother right now.
Larry, that sounds very scary! I am glad you tested negative on covid19! What a relief! Please do take care of yourself, I know you always do. I like your positive outlook in life and good to hear you have plans, I especially like the “to be less afraid to let people into my life, less alone” part. You deserve all that you wish for.
Thanks Bernadette. It sure is nice to read what you have to say on the blog. You have so much to say that I worry that you will exhaust yourself and leave us again for months or years. I hope you pace yourself and remain a continuous presence on the blog for a long time devoid of long periods of drought where you are absent.
Regarding my comment on my breathing that struck you as being scary, I expect I will have more to write about it soon as I am having primals this morning that tie into my Oct 4 comment.
Larry, thank you for your nice comment and the encouragement to keep writing. You know me well! I will follow your advice and pace myself. I am also learning to be less hard on myself with what I write. I am looking forward to hearing / reading about your feelings related to your breathing. Take good care!
thanks for all the support!
this morning I woke up feeling a slight headache, a bit of a sore throat and generally as if I might be getting a cold, so I decided to send my brother a message I would rather not come along to visit our mom.
he will go on his own, which is good to do from time to time as it is a different interaction then.
now I feel I only need to feel some concern about myself without carrying the extra responsibility about other people’s health as well.
and it feels good to know my brother and mom will enjoy each others company.
and now I can get some more rest and hopefully make the cold disappear as it usually does with me.
of course there is a slight worry it might be worse than just a cold but so far there is no alarming sign…
i realized myself my main worry in that case would be about my cats and where they would go in the worst case scenario.
but well, that is part of the doom and gloom and I have several persons that would be there and know what matters to me…
i am so tired of all the fear and worrying and increased loneliness by Corona…
M
P.s. Vicki,
that is such a nice story about that cat cho0sing your bed to have her litter.
where were you while that happened?
did you find out when you wanted to go to bed there was a whole new family that moved in there?
or were you there?
as a kid I sat with mommy cat a few times when she had one of her many litters …
M
Margaret, I was asleep in my bed, when she crawled in, down to the foot. I just lifted the covers, and saw her eyes glowing back at me. I figured she was “nesting”, looking for somewhere safe, but she had been doing that for two or three days, so I didn’t worry. Then in the middle of the night I woke “all hot and sweaty”, and still half asleep, I automatically moved my leg to “kick the covers off” and heard a little “thump” and suddenly realized I had swept one of her kittens out the bed! I quickly picked it up and put it back with her. The bed was all wet and hot, there were four kittens. I don’t remember if I moved them all that night, or waited until the morning. But my roommate got a good size box, lined it with towels, and we moved them all. I was a bit sad or concerned, because she had chosen my “warm bed”, and the box & towels were much cooler. But I realized I could not manage my bed as a cat kennel, especially as they belonged to my roommate.
Did you attend group today? I had thought I would, since my trip to see Baby got cancelled, but then I hardly was able to sleep last night, and also had to get busy this morning, continuing with re-organizing my room — my job has shipped new equipment to all of us, for working online, and that means a lot of re-organizing for me. I disconnected old equipment (e.g. a big, dead UPS)), and installed a new, better power strip (1 of 3), re-organized the cables, vacuumed and cleaned. I was standing, kneeling, sitting, crawling in a couple of cycles to finish. Then I went out to rest in the other room, looked at the clock, and it was 01:38p, to my amazement, so group was over. I also handled mail, flattened a bunch of boxes for recycling, and threw out some old food. All-in-all, getting ready for my workweek tomorrow.
One of my coworkers, my manager, has a 28-yr.old son, big, strapping guy — who suddenly was completely unable to function a week ago, passed out, his wife got him rushed to the hospital, it turns out he has a “brain infection”, but they don’t know the cause. Still awaiting some test results. I never heard of such a thing, since my close friend died of herpes encephalitis 38 yrs. ago. So I immediately thought of Covid, but he tested negative — I still wonder. But he seems to be recovering, can talk again, and is having physical therapy. So we’ll see. This manager works from Colorado, and is mask-averse, so he’s been kind of minmizing Covid until more recently, as he’s been hearing more about how we’re handling it in California. Stay safe!
P.s. Vicki,
that is such a nice story about that cat chosing your bed to have her litter.
where were you while that happened?
did you find out when you wanted to go to bed there was a whole new family that moved in there?
or were you there?
as a kid I sat with mommy cat a few times when she had one of her many litters …
M
I will write a little about things I could have said today in group. I felt very tired today because of work and the frigging heat and and taking care of the old dog, so I lay down on my bed with laptop screen angled up so no one could see me. It would not have been kind of me if I had the camera pointed at my face and people could see me drifting in and out of sleep while they were crying their guts out. Of course, there is my little old pain of me not wanting people to see me at all, for fear of being killed. Note well, that as I write this now and usually in group, I feel like a tiny piece of unwanted unloved shit on the bathroom floor, but for some reason I am motivated to write this. Libra maybe. Anyway, I listened to just about everyone, but I was really moved by s.h. talking about the ken burns roosevelt movie. S.H was so moved by what he was saying, more than I have ever seen him the years I have been with him in groups. Roosevelt’s struggle with his polio while being in the top rank of those leaders who were saving the world during ww2. Note well #2…as I write this (and usually the rare times when I talk in group), I feel as boring as j. said he felt when he got a chance to speak. However, there are many groups where I feel like I have profound things to say, and I want to say those things, but my pain is powerful and keeps my mouth clamped shut. I wanted to say last Sunday, and I don’t know if it was profound or not, but the day before group, me and z went to meet our youngest son and his wife and our 2 grandkids at a fancy restaurant for my son’s birthday. I did not want to even go see them in the parking lot because of covid but we all ended up at the outdoor table together for dinner. My son and his wife were talking seriously about divorce for a week or more. His wife called us the previous week and was castigating him on the phone with us about not making the young kid do his online school perfectly, while she was at work. My son was acting like a blithering angry alien because he could not stand the stress she was laying on him. Plus they both drink. (there was a funny line I think by chris rock last night on snl about everyone being at home together for months because of covid, and telling each other in detail all the things they hated about each other—a line as only chris rock could tell it) Anyway, we sat at the table with them and the 2 kids. The parents were somewhat abusive to the little boy, you know in the way we, as primal people, all recognize to be harmful, but not psychotically harmful. The boy will carry this shit for the rest of his life, but he DOES get a lot of love also from my son and his wife. They kept niggling at him and every time they did, I ran my hand down his back, like petting a cat, and that seemed to calm him. That is what was profound and brings a couple of tears to my eyes as I write this, and had I said it in group this week or last, might have gotten me deeply into tears. But if I am not in group, I really am not going to let the tears flow, because I am very good at clamping that shit down. I am not sure if this relates to a great grandmother who might have petted me on the forehand when I was distressed as a baby. Or maybe that I have the power to help this little boy, even though I was rarely able to get help as a kid myself. The little girl sat herself down on my lap and proceeded to play her video phone game. Z later said the kids trusted us, even though we barely ever saw them even before covid. We had not seen the now since March. I don’t know why these kids make me so tearful. So young and vulnerable. My son and his wife struggle with money and their own pain but are trying to take good care of those kids. Anyway, at work, where they moved me into a new group (so that I could telework), I have gotten back to the IT support world that they yanked me out of a few years ago. I am actually getting a little bit of joy interacting with people at the hospital again on the phone. How could you not have a little joy in talking to the operator named Graciela? What a name! And she treated me like she had known me for years. I grew to have a lot of familiar customers/acquaintances on the first floor of the hospital, once we got back from Tucson in 2008. They would be glad to see me because I would fix their computers so they could take care of the patients. Better than the last 2 years of being with the pallets of computers we would bring from the warehouse, pallets that would not say a word. I did not realize what a loss that job was, because I have gotten used to losing people from a very early age. Sophie the dog hangs in there, still wants to go for walks, even if she looks at things, more than doing much walking. The thing about that ken burns ww2 stuff. I thought that some of us who are at a certain age, had parents who grew up in the 30’s and 40’s. That, in my opinion, was a totally different scene than the last 6 decades have been. Depression, World War, just horrific times and a lot of belt-tightening. There is something very very old about it. Of course I can’t put this into clarity. Just like a totally different lost thing, even though people did the same things then as now, eat, sleep, fuck, look for work, kill, die. Yeah, bullshit. Nothing profound. But some of our parents bore the weight and also the joys of those times, times that disappeared into the winds.
I didn’t really need to talk in group today. Near the end of group, you and I were the only two who hadn’t talked yet. I was hoping you would but you weren’t there, not that I could see anyway. So I talked and was the last one. Today, because I really didn’t have a driving need to, I would have gladly not said anything and see you be the one to talk instead.
I am fighting a losing battle with another can of Jocasta maple sticks. Half an entire can gone in less than three hours after purchase. Two 4-ounce bags of honey BBQ potato chips also gone in hours. For some reason I still have zero interest drinking any of the alcohol sitting in my fridge for weeks. Just atrocious junk food, nothing healthy or anything that would take more than 60 seconds to prepare.
I do not know why I needed the blog’s attention for this, except to say I’m greatly frustrated at my lack of self control over such invitingly tasty crap.
It would seem as though chocolate-coated raspberry ice cream popsicles would symbolically nourish some of my deepest yearnings for motherly comfort, yet I no longer know where I can buy the ice cream popsicles anymore.
Hi Guru, — in entrenched ignorance and denial, from doing similar stuff long ago, I eventually became morbidly obese and diabetic, with a side of high blood pressure, and stroke. From fear, feeling, self-education and determination, I am in the process of repairing all that, as best I can. Measuring blood pressure & blood glucose were the first major things I had to do, regularly.
There is significant & growing evidence that what you eat determines what bacteria thrive in your gut, and those billions of bacteria in turn send signals to your brain, basically saying “Feed me” in increasingly compelling messages — that are nearly impossible to deny by willpower. It sounds like you are likely in the grip of this. Changing this pattern is a long, slow process of getting your body to adjust and function differently — growing healthier bacteria takes time, for example, and research is leading even to trials of “fecal transplants” to “speed up” that bacterial process (unfortunately with other disease risks).
Eating narural, whole foods, less-processed and refined, is a start. There are books you can read, or websites. Or you can ignore the necessary work of this — until it may kill you withj disease. Sugan feeds cancer, diabetes, Alzheimer’s is increasingly being called “Type-3 diabetes”, and sugar is in research as a factor in things like Parkinson’s & MS. So consider your options, Guru.
Vicki, I plan on trying to write a more comprehensive response to you soon. Too much clutter and small errands going on at the moment for me to settle down and devote some “long wavelength” thinking about all you’ve shared.
Thanks for writing back and I’m really sorry to hear you had a stroke. That completely shocked me and I can literally almost feel the terrifying fear you must have had.
Will try to come back as soon as I can.
Yes, Guru, it was terrifying, but it was also in 1999, so I’ve been doing better since, and working on these problems.
Otto,
wow, what a great comment you wrote!
it touched me when you wrote about those grandkids of yours, and how you stroked the boys back to give him some measurement.
I wish I had had a granddad like that, never knew my grandparents at all.
and the little girl on your lap also touches me, I never was able to sit on my dad’s lap or when I did it was very briefly and knowing it was just for a practical reason or something, never felt at ease let alone welcome.
so glad to hear you have your old job again where you enjoy some of the social interactions.
Vicki, ha, what a story about those cats in your bed, smiley!
and it sounds like so much work to get all that equipment installed for your job, can’t they send some technician to do that stuff so people don’t have to spent their Sunday on it?
too much to hope for I guess…
i hope to hear you next Sunday, it is always good to hear you.
Bernadette, you maybe read I did not go visit my mom yesterday, but my brother phoned me twice while he was there and I talked to my mom as well.
today he sent me a copy of a very well written e-mail he sent to the director of the nursing home, in which he expresses his concern about my mom and some other residents showing signs of loneliness and missing the personal attention they got used to from a very nice caretaker that was replaced to work in the hairdresser of the home and only one afternoon at mom\s ward as an animator now.
that is such a shame as she did schooling last year to shift from her hairs]dressers job to being an animator, and did a fantastic job at that.
she also sent us many pictures and videos of the musical afternoons or walks she did with our family member during the months of lockdown, and afterwards, which was so very helpful while not being allowed to visit.
she cares so much and everyone misses her and all the fun and warmth she added to the place.
so now we can only hope for a positive response from the director…
but in any case it was a beautiful e-mail my brother sent, at the same time respectful and direct and asking for a response.
my brother also called me this morning before he wrote the mail, just to talk once more about our mom, who is doing well, but lately sometimes drifts off into her own world talking to herself or the mirror .
my brother mentioned it in his mail and added that when she is dressed and gets attention she shifts back to reality, with which he emphasized the importance for enough personal attention and activities.
he added he asked the head nurse to have the doctor take some blood samples as to check for a possible lack of vitamins or minerals as well, which he also mentioned in his mail to the director, and thanked him for all the good care they give their residents.
my brother did a really good job with this mail, which makes me feel very good, and proud of him.
times like this we feel like a good team.
M
A typo in my former comment about my mom and her mental state:
when I mentioned that my brother wrote to the director, that my mom sometimes drifts off into a world of her own, but can easily be drawn out of it when she gets addressed, instead of ‘dressed’, and gets attention.
she is always well looked after and properly and nicely dressed etc.
so the message was she needs a conversation and some attention regularly and some activities or her mind starts creating its own virtual world.
M
Margaret, I hope you are feeling better! That was a great email your brother sent to the director of the nursing home. I hope you will get a positive response, and that someone will be assigned to your mother to keep her company and keep her from slipping into the forgetfulness. When my mom was in the nursing home and I visited, the worst thing that I observed was the old people being so “spaced out” like they were medicated to keep them quiet and compliant. It seemed that their life force had been dimmed, which I found extremely sad. Just giving them some individual attention made their eyes lit up.
Hi everyone, at the urging of a well loved acquaintance of us all I have to tell you about one of the best days of my life. Leslie and I were attending a small family gathering at the home of our niece and her husband when I was called to the balcony to ‘check out that car’. I looked out at the driveway and was astonished to see my younger son climbing out of my ‘dream’ car with a huge Cheshire Cat grin on his face. My initial reaction was ‘what?’ he’s just gone and bought himself my bucket list car, but then he held up the keys and yelled up to me “Happy Birthday Pops”
I couldn’t believe it, my sons just bought me a car !!! A 1989 Jaguar XJ6!!
As I’m sure you can all imagine, after I regained consciousness the tears flowed freely, both mine and Leslie’s, who also had no idea of our sons plans. The car is immaculate, amazingly maintained and is my favourite model and colour – British Racing Green.
Whilst I now own a car that I’ve always yearned for but never thought I could realistically afford is wonderful, it is secondary to the fact that my sons came up with the idea, went ahead and looked for it, waited until the right vehicle and the right previous owner materialized, and then bought it for me. I can’t think of too many emotional lifts that could be better than what I felt last weekend. Finding Leslie and being present at our boys births obviously lead the pack, but this lift is only a furlong or two behind.
I’m still pinching myself to make sure it’s not a dream!
Barry M
Barry, what a gift! That’s amazing what your sons did for you!
Happy Birthday Barry! Maybe you can drive it to the next retreat, I’ll be asking for a ride into town with you for sure.
that’s an awesome story, Barry! enjoy your Jaguar and so cool that you will have that memory now every time you get in your dream car! happy birthday!
Kudos, Barry! What a Birthday score! And kudos to your sons, for doing it the right way! Enjoy your new ride — and when you have some opportunity, ask Gretchen about “her infamous Jag” of long ago.
There’s men for ya – just give us mechanical toys and we’re happy.
It is an incredible and desirable piece of machinery, have fun with it (and don’t freak out when the birds use it for their own benefit).
Barry, Happy belated Birthday! And what a fantastic present! Two thumbs up!
Holy Smoke! Happy Birthday Barry.
wooow Barry!!!
and happy birthday from me as well, Margaret
Vicki, I can’t believe you remember that story. I must have told you that twenty years ago ! But yes I fessed up 🙂 Gretch
Gretchen, I heard it personally, but also remember how you enjoyed telling it, and another time heard you tell a shorter version in group. So the memory was reinforced.
Thanks everyone for your positive reactions, I’m still flying high. Sorry Phil, I won’t be using it as an Uber vehicle, but you can have your picture taken standing beside it. It’s $10 per pic.:)
And Daniel I won’t be freaking out about the birds ‘cos I’ll be camping out beside it all day with shotgun in hand!
Vicki, Gretchen already came clean with her Jag story. She’s older and a lot wiser now, but even so, if she does recommend a car for you to buy, just smile and walk away!!!
LoL! Yes.
“The Hill” posted on FB: “President Trump has instructed his top aides to stop negotiating with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Democratic lawmakers on coronavirus stimulus legislation until after the November election.”
“I have instructed my representatives to stop negotiating until after the election when, immediately after I win, we will pass a major Stimulus Bill that focuses on hardworking Americans and Small Business,” Trump tweeted. The message marks a sharp reversal for the president, who just three days earlier had urged leaders of both parties to come together to finalize an agreement that can hit his desk before the Nov. 3 elections.”
It’s all a game show for him. So, halt Covid relief until after the election, but full-speed ahead on RBG replacement on Supreme Court? Sounds like he believes he will steal the election. Since he flip-flops continually, lying with every breath, he gets away with dishonesty, because we’ve learned not to expect any consistency! Keeping us all off-balance is part of his game to succeed and take all the marbles!
—————————————-
And he’s gotten sympathy for “catching Covid” and “recovering so quickly” (assuming he did catch it), yet he put everyone around himself at risk of catching it from him by holding phto ops, and still belittles mask-wearing, with his family championing their freedom to refuse. His base likes him thumbing his nose at the world, they imagine it means he’s strong, and they like his bullying ways, they feel that “aggression” is strength. At the same time, lots of people believe he never had Covid, and the whole thing is another publicity hoax. His Drs. have put out conflicting reports, as well.
I don’t think this situation is all about Trump. The White House wanted to pass a stimulus right away, particularly since Trump is behind in the polls and this gives him a chance to “buy” or sway some voters his way at the last minute.
Mitch McConnell’s top priority has been to jam the Supreme Court and lower district/circuit courts with reactionary judges whose tenures will last for decades to come. McConnell likely told Trump “NO DEAL” in the past couple days on the stimulus so the longer-lasting judicial work can be finished. Trump had to oblige this, and to squeeze the most out of a desperate situation he is trying to finagle a ‘hostage deal’ for himself by offering the stimulus only upon re-election in light of McConnell’s refusal.
If I were Trump, I would have told McConnel, “If you don’t let me pass a stimulus BEFORE the election, I will nominate a liberal to the Supreme Court and you won’t have time to vote on any dream conservative before we likely leave office.”
Pardon my French, but that would have squeezed McConnell’s balls enough to oblige Trump’s wishes.
By the way, a promise to work on stimulus after re-election is meaningless in Trumpworld. What’s the public going to do if Trump turns his back on that promise after securing four more years anyway? (fairly low chance at this point anyway, it would seem).
Obviously Trump should have made that ball-squeezing ‘nominate a potential liberal’ threat BEFORE nominating Barrett. Trump made a mistake with that by giving up leverage over McConnel for a possible pre-election stimulus….which is now why we’re seeing Trump’s desperate ‘stimulus after election’ ploy,
Fascinating brinksmanship between a bunch of terrible reptiles.
See what I mean? This is a desperation move by Trump because he blew his Supreme Court leverage over McConnell (as I explained above)
I just have a gut feeling about this. If anything is “fake news” it’s Trump having covid19. It’s all B.S., a set-up, another way to mislead the gullible public. Turns out, he had a specific plan with it. The sudden stimulus package is only one of his schemes, telling the public, see covid is not that bad, is another. This guy is a liar, a cheat, and truly dangerous.
Last night I dreamed of Jack, the first time since he crossed over. He was assigned to assemble and lead a choir in the heavenly spheres. He was exuberant, young, dynamic, happy, and waved his arms about as he used to do in this life. While he was calling out and waving to others to come join the choir, I heard music in the air, reminiscent of an ancient Sanskrit prayer song. I woke up with a smile.
I know, Jack, you would say, It’s just “your feeling” – but it’s a nice one! (smiley)
I shared this dream with Jim, which in turn reminded him of a picture he had of Jack that Jack had received from another primal person. The picture shows Jack in his full exuberance at the 1993 retreat in Santa Barbara waving his arms in the air and yelling out to somebody. He is wearing a gray and white striped tie-dye T-shit. There is a note attached to the photo, written by the other primal person, saying: “To Jack, a warm and loving human being. From ?”
Does anybody here know who gave that picture to Jack? It’s a wonderful picture and a very nice message.
Vicki, I had an impulse this morning to write something nice to you. I think it is phenomenal how you turned your life around, as you described above to Guru. It must have taken an enormous amount of discipline and willpower to do what you did. I admire the sheer determination with which you faced your situation. And you have achieved so much! Not only have you lost a lot of weight but more important, you have improved the quality of your life, and most likely this will prolong your life expectancy altogether. I think it’s an amazing achievement!
I can speak from experience, I have not much discipline when it comes to food. That’s why I usually don’t even buy junk food, because once it’s in the house, I am lost to its calling! I agree with the bacteria calling the brain, give me more! Just the other day, I had pasta for the first time in a long while, and the next day, my brain was foggy and my vision blurry, that could be because of the gluten, but what’s worse, the following day, my body craved sugar… and as I am in an “emotionally challenged state” I had an ice cream! Bugger! Now I am suffering for at least 10 days until the sugar is worked out of my system. Back to kale and cabbage (smiley)
Big jugs of sea salted, roasted mixed nuts are on sale in some of the stores. I convinced myself they are a healthy snack, so why not save money and buy a cupboard full of jugs. I’ve been dipping into them for at least a couple of months. They probably are healthy in moderation, but they are so tasty and it is so easy to reach for another handful, and another and just one more and then another one more time etc., until I decide to be lazy and skip a meal and then grab a few more mouthfuls of nuts. I feel myself putting on weight, puffing up around the belly which isn’t healthy. I suspect the salt dries out my skin and aggravates eczema. I suspect there might be milk residue or sulphite preservative in the nut mixture, and some likely were mouldy when harvested, all of which trigger my asthma. Seems like I finally took a stand today and haven’t had any, ..yet. They are so tempting. I suppose I should throw away what I have, but I can’t do that….duh.
Oh wow, Larry, sounds delicious! I hear you loud and clear! My downfall are roasted peanuts in the shell; there is something about the sound of the cracking shell, there is something about the crunching, stimulating sensation in the mouth; totally primal! I have not bought any in ages now because, like you, I couldn’t stop myself from eating them. In my case, I craved the sensation, not the calories. And I gained quite a bit of weight. Nuts have a lot of health benefits, but they also contain a lot of fat, unsaturated, yes, but still fat. I guess like with everything else, it’s about portion control.
I just did a quick search online regarding nuts and asthma. Apparently, various nuts, especially peanuts and tree nuts can trigger asthma attacks.
This website has other interesting information regarding overeating nuts: https://www.livestrong.com/article/410236-the-effects-of-overeating-nuts/
A quote: “When you buy nuts in bulk, it’s a good idea to divide them into single-serving-size portions to avoid eating too many at once.” Tell that to a primal person hahaha!
Hahahaha hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
Thanks, Bernadette, for following your impulse — but I often feel differently about it, because I remember how I was when I was thin for just a few years, many years ago. My health was much better physically, but emotionally and psychologically I was in more trouble, and quite disfunctional. My defenses were “for shit”, just really bad. I was overwhelmed in feelings to a much greater extent than I am now. I was so scared, and isolated in self-blame, that I decided I should try overeating again, hoping to “manage” my pain better, fearing I was at risk of hurting myself. But what happened was that as soon as I gave in to overeating, I completely lost control of it, and ballooned up over 100 lbs. in a year and a half. And kept going up.
Fat is a defense, and the layers of fat do blunt pains — so at some point I was not so overwhelmed all the time, and I started reclaiming my everyday functionality (emotional and psychological), even though my physical health was declining, eventually to the point where my life was in danger. While I have worked hard to change that, at the same time I feel I “haven”t done enough”, and I can’t really separate the two sides, that are both operating every day. I go through times when I am strong enough to not buy anything I shouldn’t eat, but I regularly revisit the feelings that I need whatever it is that I can’t control, once I start. I still face those problems, every day, but they are not as bad as they once were.
What surprised me was that even after gaining a lot of weight, I was still able to feel deeply and have connected old feelings, as I did when I was thin — they just became less in duration and intensity. Once I gained access to my old feelings in therapy, that has never “gone away”. I thought the fat would put me back to the way I was before therapy — feeling dead much of the time. But it did not. I sometimes still have a “dead feeling”, but they are temporary, before I have some feeling breakthrough, and continue.
Vicki, I’m keeping this short and sweet by saying I’ve had many experiences similar to yours where weight is concerned. Even though I firmly agree with you that layers of body fat is an effective body armor especially against mortifying fear/anxiety, I should point out that the neighbor whom I think of as a likely sociopath is, and always has been, thin as a rail.
I can think of a fair number of people who have dangerous, fucked-up, non-empathetic views of other people and have no weight gain problems.
Somehow this makes me feel more inadequate since I am still dealing with weight yo-yo syndrome, so that even if I solved that problem, I would be no better or more emotionally mature than these other originally thin sociopaths anyway.
Guru, sorry to butt in. The “thin as a rail sociopath” has other defenses than eating. Don’t compare yourself with a sociopath! A sociopath would never even think about reflecting on his actions or feelings, let alone how his actions and words could affect another person, unless they are done or spoken on purpose to benefit his/her own agenda. Your intention is to deal with your feelings, I think, that makes you a more conscious and aware human being. I don’t like to use terms like “better” because I can’t judge what is good or better for a person; it’s their own choice. I just know that you are in Primal and are aware of your feelings. That counts for a lot. So, here, I have said something nice about you. (smiley)
Vicki, first thing that comes to mind: you are being much too hard on yourself! By god, Vicki, what a horrible childhood you had and how much pain you have to carry around! Of course you need a defense. Other people take recreational drugs, chain smoke, are sex addicts, child molesters, abusers, cutters, murderers, etc., in order to repress their primal pain. They act out in violent ways towards themselves and others. And they are not working on themselves emotionally. So what is a bit of overeating to help you manage your life and feelings. Be kind to yourself!
You have worked hard over the years, physically and emotionally, you have not given up but are still in the game. You have insight and awareness of your feelings and thoughts and actions, which is what this is all about. Of course, there has to be a balance, I understand. Obesity is dangerous, I hear you. But it seems, you have found a way to manage it, found a balance where you can manage your weight and your feelings.
That it is a constant up and down, I have learned to understand myself in the meantime. I don’t have the final answer either. My defenses creep up when I have to face a challenging situation. Eating is my defense. And sleeping. A lot. These defenses are so deeply intrenched in us because they started so early in life, they are rooted in the limbic system, connected with instinct, and no thinking or rationalizing or good intention can reach it, when it is activated. Eating was the only comfort we had. And all the awareness and will power sometimes don’t work when life gets painful.
So, to summarize (not that you need it, ha!): Don’t be so hard on yourself. You are doing great. Keep doing what you’re doing. Live your life. Feel your pain. Eat. Live your life. Feel your pain. Eat. Repeat. Mostly, be kind to yourself and give yourself a break. (I have to remind myself of this every day)
I’ve been crying off and on this morning until this afternoon when I had enough. I cried about being alone and accepting I will never have loving parents and that it is a feature of my growing up that can never be undone. I cry about the trauma that life inflicted on my wife and myself with her death, adult trauma piled on top of my childhood trauma brought on by life. I feel the tension releasing in my throat, in my chest and lungs, in my back, as I gradually ease into the primal and let it unfold, wave after wave. I feel and understand how since I was little there was too much trauma for me to face in my life. My body absorbed the blow, engaged itself in constant lifelong tension to suppress the feeling, to diffuse and divert the brunt of my reality so as to protect my consciousness from awareness of it. While crying deep in feeling the reality, I think how afterward Jack would reply how sad it makes him feel to read this comment I will post on the blog, and would encourage me to keep at the primalling. Thinking of him and how he no longer exists in the same way the ancient pharoahs no longer do or Cro-magnon man no longer does, I cry even deeper, more fully, realizing that life has no favourites, no exceptions, we almost all are struck with trauma of some sort and then regardless of whether our life has been meaningful or fulfilled, all life eventually comes to an end, at any stage, whether we are ready or not. Today I sank into simple truth that I’ve been traumatized by life and there is no escape but to accept and feel it and understand what it’s done to me. After the bout of primalling, I’m breathing more easily and more deeply. I feel that in facing some truth, I’ve taken some of the load off my body in its task it’s undertaken, from practically the beginning of my life, to protect me from consciousness of my truth that I couldn’t see until now. Interestingly, I feel today I will have the self-discipline to not binge on mixed nuts.
Larry, I like this very much, what you wrote, especially the final 10 lines, and then the “not binge on mixed nuts” brought a laugh.
Vicki, I want to write a semi-apology to you for not really carrying on the conversation we had earlier about junk food. I was already aware of the important role of gut bacteria, and I do eat a lot of healthy food (including some known probiotics)….it’s just that I sometimes get caught in a junk food binge cycle as Larry touched upon.
I’m sure fecal transplants have their value somewhere and Margaret seemed to like the topic, but lets not go there today and stick with something sweet-smelling, such as mint tea or heady citrus aromas.
I am in the same boat as Bernadette, where once junk food is in the house it is the first thing consumed. The critical point of decision making is at the grocery store, with a tiny hint of an angry, petulant child wanting to wrangle at least of modicum of instant gratification from a life being a continuously dull and distressing hum.
I have to accept there is a strange monster inside of me which wants his honey barbecue potato chips, maple frosting sticks, and assorted cookies and he will be stamping his petulant foot wanting satisfaction when at the grocer.
I look at the inviting silver foil packaging of a Three Musketeers bar and think of the sugary, frothy, almost obnoxiously sweet excesses only modern day capitalism can uniquely provide by lucky evolutionary chance which will never be seen again when we die. Why not be merry for one night with the candy bar before we die tomorrow as the Cro-Magnons we never remotely knew did so long ago?
The answer to your question might depend on your philosophy of life. As for the Cro-Magnons, Jack is probably chastising them right now for sending us along the road of thinking too much and not being feelingful enough.
That’s so funny!!! LOL!!!
Good. I’m happy I made you laugh Vicki. 🙂
Larry, you had a profound experience during your primal. I can feel your agony. In fact, I am always impressed to what extent you describe your primals – the feeling and thought processes, the insights and relief – like no other. It also looks like you have come to an acceptance of what was and couldn’t be changed – the traumas, the repression of your pain in order to survive, the lodging of the pain in your physical body – and now you are ready to let it go. As painful as it sounds, I think you are actually in a good place. I think the acceptance of what we can’t change and letting it go is important, actually essential, in order to move forward in life. I hope with this new realization you are able to look into the future. I hope your life will open up like your air ways have, and that a much deserved new wind will blow into your life. You so deserve to have more love and closeness with people. I think you are ready.
A question came to mind: have thoughts of forgiveness ever crossed your mind in connection with acceptance and letting go? For me forgiveness is an important factor. I am practicing it a lot these days, and it is not easy. Do you have any experience with this concept?
I had written a lot more and much better before this, but it got lost during the upload, and I couldn’t replicate it fully – sorry! I am so annoyed with myself that I didn’t save it in a document before, which is what I usually do with longer posts! Duh! That will teach me!
Bernadette, I don’t mean to interrupt your conversation with Larry…but whenever you have the chance, would you mind sharing what impressions you have gathered about me? Am I ready for love, too?
Guru, First of all I think, everyone deserves love and closeness, you, too. Sharing my impressions about you might be a more difficult task for me because I don’t know you as well as Larry (and Vicki). But I am reading your spiritual links you sent earlier right now, and will write something about you in those terms.
Just so you are aware, you and I did meet on a few occasions a long time ago, but you are right that you know Larry & Vicki a lot better than you know me.
When you told Larry you think he is ready for love, I really started to feel as though true love is only a treasure from which a tight coterie of advanced Primallers can draw from at the exclusion of unseasoned greenhorns such as myself.
There is no requirement for you to read the links I gave earlier; they’re just something to savor at your leisure. Feel free to comment on them if you ever feel up to it.
Guru, although I truly believe that everyone deserves to be loved, I also know that this need/feeling plays tricks on us; let me explain. From my experience, love comes to the ones who are open for it. It starts with an internal process. Opening up to love is painful, I know it myself, it is related to trusting again and opening your heart and making yourself vulnerable. All the things that got us in trouble as children, and consequently we had to shut down and shut out love and care and closeness. Even when I think I deserve love and have it in my life, I sometimes catch myself pushing love away. In fact, a most recent discovery is that I unconsciously want to separate from people rather than be close, even though the primal goal would to be close to people. I said before, it plays tricks on us. I used to say, I don’t need anybody, but at the same time I attached subconsciously to people who gave me “something” which might not have been love but fulfilled some other need. Then I said, now I want love. And didn’t realize that I demanded it, yet another downfall. Because you can’t force love. It has to come on its own volition. But one thing I know: love comes to you when you are receptive, when you open up, and mostly, when you give it first. It starts with you and only then it can flow to you. I believe it is in your capacity to feel your pain, get through it, leave it behind, and open up to love. That said, it is not a “this first” than love follows. It happens all at once, a constant back and forth, ebb and flow of accepting love, experiencing pain, pushing away, shutting down, working through more pain, opening up again, reaching out, letting in love, getting hurt again, being vulnerable again, etc. It’s a painful process but that’s what we are here for. Doing Primal.
Well said Bernadette.
Bernadette, I do see the incremental concept you seem to be conveying, and I am also resonating with your comment of, “(your being) attached subconsciously to people who gave me “something” which might not have been love but fulfilled some other need.”
I do tend to be drawn towards women who laugh at my jokes or men who smoothly and loquaciously tell me drawn-out, engaging stories. (Yes, just like mom and dad apparently)
I’m sure there are many, many more things we could talk about, including perhaps a response to your post regarding sociopaths above. Unfortunately I am falling asleep here at my desk. Toodles.
I like that Bernadette
Cheers! 🙂
The concept of forgiveness probably is more important to you, Bernadette, probably due to the nature of how your parents treated you, than it is to me. The concept of forgiveness has never been a separate thing that entered my mind. I can understand where in your case tho, forgiveness would be an important step on the road to acceptance and letting go.
As for your comments about my primal that I wrote about, thank you for sharing your thoughts. It’s nice to know that someone reads what I write. What your wrote is interesting to me in how it’s different from how I see it. Every primal has felt profound to me as they are happening, this one not any more so than the others. This one wasn’t any more dramatic or meaningful than others. This one is just a stage further along a continuum. I wanted to describe this one because it helps me process it. Each one has been a venture into the unknown, an opening up to feelings and meaning that have been repressed since early life, and thus an awakening and a flush of insights. They are all part of a continuum of painful acceptance and letting go, primal by primal, year by year, decade after decade, each a little piece at a time, none individually causing overtly dramatic change in my life, but now and then when I pause and reflect, I notice …oh, it’s easier to be with people than it was 5 years, a year, and even 6 months ago, or I notice I’m more relaxed and present and speaking up more and being more spontaneous and interactive with people instead of being so scared, armored and withdrawn as I used to be. My airways are not nearly as open as I’d like them to be. I think they are better when I’m enjoying myself with people. I think they are worse when I feel the oppression of too much being alone and/or unhappy and not doing what I need to to meet my needs. These days of living alone, I feel improvement after primals, and often increasing breathing difficulty leading up to primals. I’m curious about what you said about looking into the future Bernadette. I feel like I always have, even before therapy, tried to guide my life into a future that mattered to me, as opposed to not taking any control at the helm.
SSG, I don’t think it’s only some primal elite who fall in love. It can happen to anyone. Some primal elite never do. Some primal newbies, like myself, are very fortunate to have that happen very soon after the start of therapy. There are people who fell in love before they came to therapy. There are people who fall in love and never do therapy. There are a whole lot of factors that go into meeting and falling in love with some one. In my case, being in primal therapy, tho only at the early stage, helped give me more courage and self-understanding to take what felt to me like big risks in opening up and getting to know this person who was beginning to feel more and more important to me. What primal therapy does is give you the option of getting out of a rut and going on a path of taking emotional risks to make your life better. Primal therapy can’t work without the person intentionally taking those risks. I don’t think it’s being a primal elite that makes a person capable of falling in love. I think it is a person’s intent that closes or opens the door to potential, and primal therapy can help to dismantle self-inflicted barriers that get in the way. Beyond that, it depends on chance and circumstances, which a person can try to shift more in their favour if possible.
Larry, I get the sense that I somehow offended you with my interpretation of your primal and that you are annoyed or irritated with me. If so, I am sorry!
I am aware that you have consciously and continuously been searching and working for a better life/future ever since you’ve been in Primal (or even before as you say). I am also aware that your primals have been on a continuum of accessing feelings ever so deeper and more connected. And in no way would I say that this primal was “more profound than” or “better than” or “more connected than” or “having more impact than” other primals that you had in the past. When I read this last post, I thought that you were in a slightly different place, where you say, you are accepting what was. Maybe you have written this before and I had forgotten, and I just interpreted it this time from my ‘wishful thinking’ point of view, rather than from your reality. If that’s the case, I am sorry, and I will be more careful in the future. Specifically when I talk about your future, I mean a new relationship with someone special. Again, that’s maybe just my wishful thinking for you. But you do deserve someone special, I won’t back down on that!
I am curious, when you say: “I can understand where in your case tho, forgiveness would be an important step on the road to acceptance and letting go.” what exactly do you mean? How does my parents’ treatment of me call more for forgiveness than what was done to you?
Nice comment to Guru!
Oh, no please be reassured that you didn’t offend me. I’m not annoyed or irritated. Yes, you’re right on, I am in a different place…definitely yes. I feel as if I’m an insect nymph or a shrimp or crab, moulting….shedding a tough exoskeleton to expose a soft, vulnerable skin in which I can grow and then harden a new protective layer until the next stage of vulnerabiity and growth. I suppose what I was trying to get at is that this growth stage if that’s what it is, isn’t unlike the many others in the long process of doing this therapy. I guess I interpreted your earlier comment wrong in assuming you were implying that this stage was especially unique for me, and i wanted to reply and explain that it’s one stage in many in the long primal process.
As to your last couple of sentences, I’ve never had the opportunity to talk to you about it but my understanding is that your parents, or at least one of them, was overtly mean to you. It that’s true, I think you would have clear and justified reason to resent them for it, to even hate them. But I think that underneath that is the little kid who loved and needed them in the first place. Forgiving them seems to me a way to become friends again with that little kid who loved and needed them, and the pain that little kid who you were experienced from not having loving parents. I’m just forming an impression based on what I think I know of you from what I think I remember you wrote or talked about in the past. I admit my impression might be entirely wrong. You are the expert on you of course, and the only way for me to really understand is to hear you talk or see you write about it.
As for me, my parents weren’t generally overtly mean to us in any way that I’m conscious of. We grew up with the belief that they worked very hard to provide us with a safe and clean home and our basic material needs and comforts were provided for. None of us were pressured into any career life choice. I had some vague, diffuse anger toward them because I felt something was missing, but we felt they did the best they could. Through therapy I’m realizing a child needs so much more….being seen, being loved, being supported, emotional warmth, feeling safe. My parents failed on that account. The more I come to realize that, the more I sadness and pain I feel for not having the parents I needed and what that lack did to me, and that little kid is still in me wanting and needing to love them and be loved back. I don’t have an entrenched resentment toward them or a stage of forgiveness to work through. I actually never think of the idea of forgiveness or enact it. It’s just a foreign concept to me. I just learn to avoid people who would intentionally hurt me. Not many people in my life, none that I can think of, has or had the intent to hurt me though that I can think of. There is no one who I feel angry towards who I could weight the option to forgive. Or perhaps I don’t feel angry for long so much as I feel hurt, take the blow and go straight toward the feeling and deal with it, accept and move on but avoid the hurtful person, at least until we know and understand each other better. I think I’m starting to ramble. It’s past bed time.
The vice presidential debate last night was civilized and watchable, and I thought Kamala Harris did very well, California can be proud. Mike Pence was strangely oblivious to that fly on his head, as he is to other things. I had thoughts of re-watching that Hollywood classic “The Fly” for more insights.
Phil
I wrestle with the concept of forgiveness; can someone give a personal example of it? I cant quite understand your version Larry “ Forgiving them seems to me a way to become friends again with that little kid who loved and needed them, and the pain that little kid who you were experienced from not having loving parents.” Maybe through primalling, taking directly to my parents I’ve regained some ‘love’ or self-worth. For me, that’s the process of letting go.
Jo, I think forgiveness is very personal and different for everyone. For me it is a decision, a conscious and deliberate process. And it is not a final, one-time step occasion, like, Okay, now I forgive my mom and dad for fucking me up, no! It is a process, like letting go of old feelings. But like working through old pain, it starts with an intention. Maybe letting go is the same as forgiveness, I’m not sure. I think letting go is more allowing, whereas forgiveness is more intentional. I don’t know! I am exploring the concept myself and thought I throw it out there and see what people have to say. (Also see my comment to Larry below)
This discussion on forgiveness has had me thinking. To forgive, it seems to me, to begin with you need to blame someone. In my case, at the start of therapy, I blamed my childhood, as certainly a lot of bad things happened to me then..
A lot of it had to do with my mother, but since I really couldn’t remember her, and she had a severe progressive illness, that seemed to let her off the hook.
she wasn’t really there for me to blame, or forgive. Since then, as I’ve remembered more, little by little, I’ve come to blame her and get to a lot of angry feelings, although I had no adult relationship with her, which might seem to be where forgiveness would come in. It’s very easy to for me to keep my focus on her, because in my memory it was all so negative.
I had thought and felt my father to be simply useless and unhelpful and not key to my neurosis, so not to blame really, so possibly even forgiven in my mind for that reason. I did and do connect with anger towards him, but it hasn’t seemed to go deep.
More recently I’m finding out how important his uselessness was. It’s actually another critical component for me, which has been hard to reach, but is now happening in my process. So, I can start to more fully blame him too, which is more important in that I can certainly remember him well, and he’s who I had after early childhood.
Phil
Interesting how the process in a rate that you can absorb sequentially unfolds for you Phil.
Another part of this is, since I didn’t seem to try hard to get what I needed from my father, in the way of understanding and help, he can’t be blamed. I’m starting to see how wrong that idea is. It was so bad, he was so useless, that I needed to completely turn away from him to isolation; that’s how complete his failure was as a parent. I certainly can’t and shouldn’t be forgiving him.
Phil
I’m want to add something because it might be helpful for me to write about here, going off on a tangent away from the discussion on forgiveness.
One day early in my therapy in New York where I started, I was directing some anger towards my father on my own in the group room, in the way we used to do.
My therapist came over and more or less said it was wrong what I was doing, that it was all about my mother, that my father actually saved me, so there was no use doing that. There was a little truth in what she said, but for the most part she was wrong, and wrong to be saying something like that. I don’t automatically take in what people say to me, and I continued to express anger towards my father, even if not in her presence. She was very helpful, in general, and I’ll never forget that, but was wrong about that..
Phil
Phil, my gut tells me that your therapist was wrong with stopping you from getting angry at your dad. You did well expressing anger early in your therapy. Gretchen would have been quite pleased with me, if I had been able to express anger, which I couldn’t. I was too scared. I’m glad you trusted your instincts and kept on doing what was right for you.
Seems to me she was mistaken in directing you away from your anger toward your Dad. I guess she thought engaging in anger toward your Dad was a defense diverting you from your true primal anger, which I assume she supposed was toward your mother. Seems to me you have plenty of reason to be angry toward both, from what you’ve described of your parents’ parenting behaviour.
Phil, I have gone through a similar process. Access to the feelings of neglect and indifference on the part of my father, and the helplessness of my mother, came so much later in therapy than the overt and obvious transgressions towards me, such as my dad’s violence for example. It seemed that my mother’s helplessness towards my father’s aggression was (and still is) deeply imbedded in me and I am just only discovering on a conscious level it’s affect on my adult life. My own helplessness is coupled with anger and resentment, and as you wrote, blame, mostly directed at people in the present in the act-out. I have worked hard at this over the last three years, taking responsibility for my perceived inadequacy and helplessness, rather than putting blame on someone else. It has been a very hard but powerful process.
Larry, I am glad I asked and glad you are not irritated or annoyed with me. But to be fair, you did read my earlier comment right, I did assume that you had arrived in a different or more unique place, so that was my mistake. I see now that you are in a continuum as you so well describe and I misinterpreted it. I like the way you describe your evolving process “as if I’m an insect nymph or a shrimp or crab, moulting….shedding a tough exoskeleton to expose a soft, vulnerable skin in which I can grow and then harden a new protective layer until the next stage of vulnerability and growth.” Are you by any chance a Cancer in the astrological signs? 😉
Regarding forgiveness: Thanks for explaining, and I understand now your thinking process, although I don’t necessarily agree with it. You remembered correctly that my parents were at times violent towards me, but what stood out most and needs correcting is: I never hated either one of my parents. It’s just not in me. And like you, I also think that they did the best they could do with their limited knowledge and feeling capacity.
I don’t think – in a primal sense – that an overt transgression like physical punishment or sexual abuse is more punishable and therefore needs more forgiveness than a less overt transgression like neglect, passive aggression, or indifference. These “non-actions” can harm as much or, I dare say, even more than the overt perpetrations. Neglect has the most profound and long term effects. In my primal process it just took much longer to get to that understanding. These passive violations are more harmful precisely because they are so insidious. They vastly add to our feelings of not being loved and seen and truly cared for, and these are the feelings that keep us from building a healthy life as adults. (I think Phil is also writing about this same issue above)
I am currently exploring the concept of forgiveness and don’t have the final answer. I think what I am getting at with forgiveness is the complete letting go of all that was done to me, all the negative effects it had on me. My thinking is, once I have forgiven and fully let go, the old feelings won’t return. I’m done with them. In other words, if the old feelings keep intruding into the present, then I am not done with them and I have not truly forgiven. I am not saying that I can do it all the time, but I said that I am practicing it. It is a conscious process, an intentional process, and for me it is a needed process to completely heal and arrive at inner peace. Then again, it is very personal and I don’t believe that everyone has to do it in order to come to a place of acceptance and inner peace. I’ve said enough, and now my brain is fried! Hahaha!
Thanks for sharing your take on the topic of forgiveness Bernadette. I want to clarify that I wasn’t implying that some abuses that are an overt physical/sexual trangression make the perpetrator more punishable than perpetrators of so-called less transgressive abuses. What I was trying to say is that it seems to me that someone who holds on to anger or a grudge against an abuser will not likely get to the heart of suppress primal pain inflicted by the abuse. it seems to me once the person can get thru the anger and can forgive the abuser, deeper primal pain about the abuse will well up. What I was speculating was that perhaps being physically abused is more likely to evoke anger against the perpetrator than does more passive abuse. I guess I was trying to fathom why I don’t hold on to anger or a grudge against anyone, so forgiveness has no meaning or purpose for me. Perhaps it isn’t the type of abuse that is the determining factor as to whether the person holds on to anger or not. Perhaps personality type is the main factor resulting in whether or not a person holds on to anger or a grudge.
I see where you and I have a different take on forgiveness. You hope that by practicing forgiveness you will come to inner peace. I think that reaching a point of truly letting go of anger and being able to forgive stirs primal turmoil, which, through primalling leads to more inner peace.
More thoughts about my anger came to me after my most recent reply to you, Bernadette. Perhaps my anger is very deep, very early, like 11 months old, and scared me to death, and so I squelched it and Mother found me turning blue in my baby carriage, after which I was rushed to emergency and left for a week in an oxygen tent, where my parents were told I have asthma. There have been a few occasions when primally I erupted in a volcano of anger, but it seems to be anger at everything, at life itself or whoever designed it, for being so capricious and letting what happened to me happen and ruining my entire life. Somehow my parents aren’t the target, because in that volcanic anger I’m also angry about what happened to them so that they could not become the parents who I needed. If I believed in God, I’m angry toward him for making such a mess of things, because if I was the one who was omnipotent I would easily design a far better system. Since I have no reason or need to believe there is a God, my anger gets directed toward Life for being such a fucked up system. I know though that that doesn’t make sense, so then my anger gets directed toward primal therapy for after promising so much not being able to fix things for me and make my childhood right. But I know that doesn’t make sense either, and while in the primal I know that the anger is just a defense my psyche is using to keep me from descending into the pain, so I let the anger dissolve and I find myself plunging into my searingly painful (or so it feels in those primal moments) primal truth about aloneness and helplessness in the face of what is happening to me. Forgiveness never enters the equation for me, but I can imagine where for some people letting go of anger and becoming forgiving could be a step toward opening to primal pain, which when felt leads to peace.
Larry, I am glad you found your anger 🙂 I agree that not having a specific event or target to put your anger on makes it much harder to access it and feel it. A violent act is definitely cause for an angry reaction, and the perpetrator the obvious target. But so is neglect; it’s just that kind of anger is buried deeper and is not as specific and therefore much harder to deal with. You have a right to be angry at Life and the system and the injustice of what has happened to you. It might change later and become more specific. Forgiving is not a goal to be worked towards when you are still working out repressed pain and anger. I think it comes after all that has been worked through and let go. I agree with you that feeling the pain leads to inner peace, too. But you got it the wrong way around, it’s not the forgiving that leads to opening up to primal pain; it’s feeling and letting go of the primal pain that leads to the conclusion of wanting to forgive.
I guess we will just have to disagree, Bernadette, or maybe we are expressing the same thing but the words one of us uses has a different meaning to the other. Forgiveness does not have a place in my thought process. nor in my feeling process, nor a use in my vocabulary. I don’t have anger needing a target. I don’t have anger that I need to discharge in act outs toward people. Many times in my therapy I come to a place in primalling my truth where I feel love for my parents and it hurts deep into the fabric of my soul how I had to shut them out and shut myself down from life in order to survive life with them, because in their own sickness they couldn’t love me back the way I needed them to, and now accepting that’s just how it was and is brings wracking pain, understanding, resolution and peace. That seems like the stage you are wanting to achieve. For me anger was never a dominant feature I had to work through and let go of nor was forgiveness ever a part of the process. I might get angry now at someone who I perceive to be unjust toward me, but I don’t marinate in it. I either find resolution with them, or avoid them. Forgiveness is never something that I ruminate over, until you posed the question.
Larry, I get it. We might disagree on some technicalities but essentially we are on the same page. Words can get confusing because of the different connotations and associations people have with them. I’m ready to move on….
I don’t think “forgive” is a word I “get”. It feels duplicitous, as if saying, “You hurt me, I was angry at you or about that” but somehow now I’m pretending that didn’t happen, and I can now deny it happened, or act as if it never happened? No. I feel hurt and or angry until I don’t feel that way anymore, the pain subsides, and then I can accept it happened, and all I felt — and maybe I can think about why the other person did what they did (out of their own pain, ignorance, or whatever), and so I feel unburdened, more objective about the whole thing, and can decide whether I can or should trust or tentatively trust the other person, and then see if trust is merited — or not. “Forgive” is not a word I use, as it feels like some kind of shortcut, translation or metamorphosis, rather than simple progression.
With my parents there were seemingly endless hurts, angers, and mistrusts, all compounded and some complicated through the years. I did “think” they “of course” loved me, and sometimes I felt their affection, but I did not overall “feel they loved me”, nor did I hear it. I remember when once my mother said, “I know you never felt we loved you, but we did…” and they continued talking about how happy they were when I was born. I was surprised, because I don’t remember ever telling them that I felt they never loved me, but I suppose I might have — I was pretty much miserable “all the time”. But I also noticed her comment about “when I was born” kind of set a boundary on their happiness with me, even as it opened the door on “they might have felt good about me at some time”. So I listened, but said nothing. Writing about this makes me feel like I’m kind of feeling sorry for myself, which doesn’t feel good, so I want to stop now.
Vicki, I kind of agree with what you say about “forgive”; that it’s a concept which wouldn’t come up for me except in a discussion like this. Forgiveness doesn’t seem to be a part of primal therapy; my anger and hurt are old feelings, not happening now. Both my parents have been dead many years, so I wouldn’t be able to forgive them, only their memories. It’s maybe more about achieving more understanding, although I don’t have that as a goal. As a parent myself I tried to do better, but I’m sure I made a lot of mistakes, since my own pain was still in the way. Some things are just wrong, and should be obvious, like spanking and other punishments etc.
Phil, yeah, I don’t know whether or not Janov ever mentioned forgiveness. I just want to get there because it feels right and good to me, whether it is part of the primal process or not. But in case you change your mind in the future, your parents don’t have to be alive in order for you to forgive them. You would be doing it for yourself mostly.
Bernadette, that’s fine you want to reach forgiveness for your parents. I may have missed if you already mentioned it, is this tied in with your spirituality? We all have our own goal to achieve and paths to travel. I think it’s because I’m not consumed with anger and bitterness towards my parents now, that I don’t feel any need for forgiveness. What I do have are plenty of old feelings that I want to continue primalling in relation to my parents. As I do that I think it means that I will remember and feel them more fully in my heart, the good and the bad, and I can be more myself.
Phil, I have not mentioned forgiveness in connection with spirituality. I think forgiveness can happen independently from spirituality, but it doesn’t have to. I am not consumed with anger and bitterness either towards my parents. The desire to practice forgiveness doesn’t come from such feelings, the opposite, it comes from a feeling of closeness. I agree that different people have different goals. I think your goal to remember and feel your parents more fully in your heart, the good and the bad, is a great goal. I am curious what other feelings you are primalling about in relation to your parents.
I am so glad I had about a year of warning before my dad died. We did talk about any and all things he might have done which I may have perceived as wrong; he was really disturbed and in angst over whether he was a bad parent through neglect or other abuse, and even cried briefly in distress over it.
I had plenty of time to tell him I loved him and, if he did anything wrong towards me as a child either emotionally or otherwise, I told him to completely forget about that. He was totally forgiven and I wasn’t angry at him in the slightest. Dad was visibly relieved at hearing me say that, and I’m so glad I had the chance to do so before he had to go to the hospital when things grew too intense to focus on forgiveness.
Was dad always there for me emotionally? No, but I don’t give a damn that he wasn’t, for he did a lot of good things for me as well with the highly stressful challenges of being an involuntary single parent as an outgrowth of automotive technology.
And I absolutely MEANT it when I told dad I absolved him of any shred of wrongdoing. I loved him too much to burden him with any additional stress during his last year of life.
My mom should have been here with us, and on accordance to the flights of fancy Bernadette’s dream about Jack, I can only imagine the enormous ripple effects of my 30 year old mom torn away from my dad, only to reunite with him when he was 82!
What sort of notes would they share?
Yes, I totally get that. I did a similar thing for my dad after my mom died and he was alone for the last 18 months and opened up about his worries regarding wrongdoings, etc. I made sure to unburden him from many worries, and made sure he was able to die in peace. It was a natural thing to do.
It would be like your mom and dad were never apart! And they’d be both young and beautiful and in love and dancing on the clouds 🙂
Guru, the story about your dad is very touching. Simply beautiful. I give your dad a lot of kudos for opening up and talking about the things he’d done that you may have perceived as wrong. And it’s great that you were able to give him relief by forgiving him and telling him you loved him. That’s just perfect. Thanks for sharing!
Vicki, your take on “forgiveness” is actually very rational and makes a lot of sense. I like the way you describe your process. Let me just say this: when someone has to pretend that the hurt didn’t happen, or they have to deny that it happened, or act like it never happened, so that they can say they forgive, then it’s not truly forgiving, then it’s just pretending. The act of true forgiveness is not taking a short cut as you said, it is progression. The way I understand it, forgiving comes at the very end when all the pain has been felt, accepted, and let go. As long as there is pain, anger, resentment, etc. left over, someone is not ready to forgive. And then again, it might not be necessary for peace of mind for some or most people. If all you need is “unburdened” and “more objective” then all is good.
I think the conflicting information we get from our own brain/instincts on one hand, and from our parents on the other hand, is what is so painful and crazymaking. Parents might say, Of course we love you. But your feeling is saying, But I don’t really feel loved. So which one is true? Maybe both? I think that’s what makes it all so complicated.
I hope you are okay!
Thanks for your response, Bernadette. I agree. And I am ok. I find it very hard to continue writing or talking, when what I’m saying starts making me feel bad about myself in some way, hence I said “feeling sorry for myself”. When I am talking, I fumble inside, and don’t know how to handle it, so I usually later find that I was trying to hide the ambiguous feeling from myself. But when I’m writing, my feelings are happening in slower time, so I was able to see it, and just decide to say it, and stop. When I am in some feeling, and at odds with myself, it’s time to do something else.
Don’t predators both big and small rely on the forgiveness of their targets so the abuse or exploitation can continue?
I can certainly see where forgiveness can be a valuable tool in that case.
A-ha, ha! Guru — yes! Chomp! I immediately had an image from Jurassic Park.
But I am sure Bernadette has a more personally, emotionally vulnerable context in mind. Although in familial bullying abuse, “forgiving” rather than “getting the hell out” often plays a big part. Maybe that also depends on how much “need” for the abuser you feel, and “fear”, and “vulnerability”, as in a case where someone is so lost, they crawl back for more. Or see no other way to survive.
this feels aggressive towards me. thanks a lot!
In what way aggressive towards you, Bernadette?
Vicki, I feel that what you wrote has a sarcastic undertone. Sarcasm to me signals contempt and aggression. Maybe I’m wrong in my perception. Maybe I am just tired and vulnerable. But I have to trust my intuition here.
Bernadette, I’m sorry it came across that way, it was not my intent. But I can imagine now, that it could seem that way, and that you have to trust your feeling.
At first I just laughed at what Guru wrote, which was an extreme example of a predator. I knew your context was totally different, so I commented about that. But then I realized he had a point, that people who are being bullied and abused “forgive” their abusers out of fear, and so it goes on. — I thought of someone we know in therapy, who has that problem. And I have experienced bullying myself at different ages, and didn’t handle it well, even though it was the best I could do at the time. At any rate, I thought the downside of crazy “forgiving” should be said — I still feel that. It did occur to me in passing, to wonder if it might touch you, just because of the interpretation of the word “forgive”, but the context seems so different from what you wrote about, that I didn’t imagine it would bother you.
I do not know if I should have thought about it differently, or not.
Vicki, thank you, I much appreciate your explanation. But in retrospect it was not necessary because this morning I realize that I took your comment personal where I shouldn’t have. I know now that it wasn’t meant that way. You did or said nothing wrong! I actually agree with what you said about “forgiving” because of fear, how crazy and unproductive and harmful that is. And you are right, that’s not the forgiving that I am talking about. As I wrote below: time to move on….. 🙂
Thanks, Bernadette. I was not able to let go of it last night (fear that I was wrong, or at fault), until at 4 am, again trying to sleep, a howling feeling came up, with relief, after which calmer breathing settled in. So it proved useful in the end, for my sanity.
Vicki, I am sorry I put you through that! You and Guru didn’t say anything wrong. It was a totally valuable point in the discussion. I just misperceived and misinterpreted it, and had a knee jerk reaction, that was my mistake. Please forgive me.
I didn’t blame you for it, not a problem.
it is an interesting topic, forgiveness.
like Vicki I feel it has most to do with not feeling so angry anymore.
there seem to be different forms as well, at least for me.
a few times in therapy I felt mistreated by some persons, who I did not feel like forgiving at all, as I was very hurt and angry.
but at some point in retreats, they went into a big feeling in group related to how they had behaved, started crying deeply and actually they both ended up at the end of that feeling, still sobbing really, saying sorry to me with their head in my lap.
then it kind of came naturally to me to let go of the anger, which felt like ‘forgiving’, but without a conscious decision to do so , it just felt like a natural response.
but I must add I never liked those two persons anymore, as I did not trust them, and will not trust them ever again probably.
then another time, I felt also very hurt and angry by someone, who never really said sorry, but as I had liked the person a lot to start with, I discovered that time and both of us feeling and expressing what we had to feel, worked anyway and resolved the anger and allowed me to like her again even while some distance seems to remain so far.
and then I felt hurt and anger to both my parents, it all came to the surface more and more during therapy, but my parents were never intentionally mean to me really, they hurt me out of their own pain in more subtle ways, but both also were nice many times.
when my dad died suddenly, and I drove up to their house and rushed up to the bedroom and fell apart while putting my arms around his dead body, I first howled in pain and sadness, and then to my own surprise the words that came out were ‘thank you…’
so it seems on that intense moment of grief something inside of me had made up the sum of my feelings and what remained was still gratitude and not anger. it kind of felt like a relief and also was not planned at all, but it could also be called forgiveness by some, which is ok as a word has so many interpretations.
then with my mom therapy and time and she and me evolving and changing also have resolved anger and hurt to the point that what remains is tenderness and care and love.
but that too was a natural process and never a conscious decision.
therapy and understanding myself made me able to understand my parents better too, which made a huge difference .
but then I am sure it would be extremely hard for me to feel any kind of even faint inclination of forgiveness to for example someone who tortured or hurt animals.
that seems unforgiveable somehow for me, as it is deliberately hurting innocent and vulnerable creatures only in order to feel better oneself.
if I imagine being a judge to them, death penalty would seem appealing, as they would seem too far gone to really get better to me…
one could say child abusers would deserve the same treatment, but they so often have been abuse victims teeirselves, that the abuse seems a way they use to try to process their pain in their own desperation.
which of course does not help their victims, but they seem, to me, closer to be able to make progress by a primal kind of therapy.
of course this is all just my feelings, not what others should feel, and maybe my feelings on the matter could also still change…
M
Margaret, that’s a real nice post, thank you. I like the specific examples you gave of times you were able to forgive. The story about your dad and the “thank you” you felt came from deep inside of you is very touching. I have learned a lot about forgiveness over the last few days by reading the various comments here on the blog. Now I agree that forgiveness can take on many different forms. And I also agree that someone can forgive a person without thinking that their action was justified or in any way acceptable. It does not mean forgetting or condoning the wrongdoing. I also agree that a broken relationship doesn’t necessarily have to be reconciled, even when someone has forgiven the person and the hurtful act. It’s a complex topic, or maybe I am making it too complicated and it is all a natural process as you say, just by letting go of anger and resentment.
Larry, Vicki, Phil, Guru, Jo: Thanks for your thoughts on the topic of forgiveness. They gave me lots to think about. It seems that you all have arrived at some point of internal harmony, understanding, letting go, unburdened, etc. That’s great. I realize now that my desperate striving for inner peace by practicing forgiveness is creating a problem in itself, or is the problem, maybe. I just know that I still have an inner restlessness, or ‘non-peace’ that my rational or feeling mind doesn’t have access to (yet). I also know that it has nothing to do with my outer circumstances, or childhood, parents, etc. as far as I can tell. Instead of continuing my struggle I realize now that I need to look at what causes this and why the desperation or need to arrive at a more peaceful state. All I can do is let it sit and observe it, until it will reveal itself. So, enough said about this. Thanks for listening.
Lets move on …
I find it frightening how Repubs are truly trying to steal this election: “The Trump campaign is furiously litigating in nearly every major swing state (17 states in total) to block expanded access to the ballot during a pandemic, while GOP state lawmakers fight to maintain existing restrictions on voting that have given their party a major advantage in past elections, and push new ones.”
“29 ways Trump and the GOP are making it harder for you to vote: Republicans are doing all they can to preserve their power at the expense of the democratic process.”
https://www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/10/29-ways-trump-and-the-gop-are-making-it-harder-to-vote/?utm_source=facebook&utm_campaign=naytev&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR13cSuL0iyqJyWqywmtlYq3ibTnlOljUcgkr_leEVzyV_5AIa3Is-r-OYs
Examples:
“In Georgia’s June primary, voters in predominantly white neighborhoods waited an average of six minutes to vote, while voters in predominantly Black neighborhoods waited an average of 51 minutes.”
“GOP-controlled states such as Texas have closed polling places on college campuses, while allowing voters to cast a ballot with a gun permit but not a student ID.” The Texas Gov. also ordered counties to remove already established additional drop box… See More
“…ten states (nine of them with Republican state legislatures) still do not allow online voter registration, and Republicans have sued to prevent it from being offered…”
“In 2018, the Supreme Court upheld efforts by Ohio’s Republican secretary of state to remove voters who had not voted in a few previous elections, essentially turning voting into a “use it or lose it” right.”
“Blocking election integrity legislation: For nearly a year, Mitch McConnell and Senate Republicans have blocked legislation to protect Americans’ right to vote and prevent foreign election interference. They’ve also blocked legislation passed by the House to give $3.6 billion in election aid to states.”
“Trump urged his supporters to submit their completed mail ballots and then show up at the polls and test the system by trying to vote again. State officials from around the country had to remind voters that voting twice in the same election is illegal, as others warned that people following the president’s suggestion could create delays that deter legitimate voters.”
“The GOP is seeking to recruit 50,000 poll watchers to intimidate and potentially challenge the eligibility of Democratic voters, after the party was freed from a court order that had banned law enforcement intimidating voters since the 1980s. ”
“In eight states, including the swing states of Wisconsin and North Carolina, voters must find a witness to sign their mail ballot, which can be difficult at a time of social distancing; Alabama’s GOP secretary of state went to the Supreme Court to keep a law requiring two witnesses or a notarized affidavit for a mail ballot to count.”
“In Pennsylvania, the Trump campaign recently won a court order requiring the state to throw out ballots that are not enclosed in a special secrecy envelope…”
“In Ohio, the Republican secretary of state issued a directive limiting drop boxes to one per county (in defiance of a court order), ensuring unequal access for voters living in more-populated counties and forcing some to travel up to 90 minutes to drop off their ballot.”
“While 44 states will allow all voters to obtain mail ballots during the pandemic, six GOP-controlled states are still requiring a reason other than COVID-19 to vote-by-mail…”
“the Trump campaign has sued New Jersey, Nevada, and Montana to block them from mailing all registered voters a ballot, even though it’s been done since the 1990s with few problems.”
“The Trump campaign has filed numerous lawsuits attempting to block states from sending mail-in ballot request forms to voters.”
Sorry, my 2nd para example should have been “”GOP-controlled states such as Texas have closed polling places on college campuses, while allowing voters to cast a ballot with a gun permit but not a student ID.” The Texas Gov. also ordered counties to remove already established additional drop boxes, leaving 1 per County — e.g. forcing Harris County with 5 million people and is larger than Rhode Island, to go from 12 locations to just one.”
on thursday evening I went to the first training meeting for the helpline volunteer work.
we were a group of 20 new volunteers, and it was great, very primal really, client centered approach, and no solution offering expert attitude wanted.
the next morning I had my first gym and condition group since February, and in the afternoon a visit to my mom.
I feel so very much better since, feel part of life and connected with other people again!!
hope I can talk about it a bit in tomorrows Zoom group.
M
another bit of natural knowledge that made me marvel upon hearing it:
dragonflies have to hunt 200 insects every day in their mating season.
their eyes have about 100 lenses so they have 360 degrees around sight.
they have lived in the same way for hundreds of millions of years, isn’t that something?
feels humbling, our own species is just a little speck in time in comparison…
M
I went deeper into feelings today about why I so easily feel abandoned – because I was.repeatedly abandoned by my mother at early ages. Abandoned as a punishment at, I would say 2 or 3 years old is what came up.. It was so bad and happened so often, in addition to other things that there is hardly anything at all good to remember of my mother by comparison, just a few crumbs. And then permanent abandonment, she never really talked to me again; although that part of it didn’t come up today.
All this , I guess, because of how poor my weekend is in comparison to my expectations and desires. It’s like a real roller coaster of feelings for me, like the Kingda Ka in New Jersey which goes straight up and straight down, and I think may be the highest in the world. I’ve been on it a few times with my son. Like having an amazing vacation with my wife and then coming back to reality, even though that was many weeks ago. But in my mind it could and should continue. Not all the travelling, but our level of connection.
https://www.sixflags.com/greatadventure/attractions/kingda-ka
Phil
Phil, when she abandoned you at 2 or 3, and later on, what was she punishing you for? And then, how old were you when “she never really talked to me again”, and I don’t remember how old you were, when she died.
Vicki, I got punished for wanting attention. At age 8 she asked me what grade I was in school and who my teacher was, so I remember precisely because it felt so bizarre. My mother didn’t even know me, asking obvious things. She felt like a complete stranger, and actually much worse, until she died when I was 11. My father didn’t seem to have awareness of the impact of this. No one did who could have helped.
Phil, your parents sound so disconnected, it seems amazing they managed to even create children. Like why bother? I’m sorry that’s what they left you with.
An update is that I had a great today, better then any recently. So the bad day yesterday didn’t make that impossible. We had friends over in our backyard from mid afternoon until late in evening. It was a beautiful fall day and we gathered around the fire pit as it got cooler. We laughed a lot and had a great time. I also finished routine things I had in mind to do. I would like to think the deep feelings I had yesterday helped me enjoy this today.
Phil
I feel so worried…
One of my two cats has been vomiting almost daily for almost a year now.
last spring I did already make an appointment with a vet specialized in stomach and intestinal problems, but when the time was there my cat struggled so hard not to be locked in his cage that he escaped three times in a row and I had to cancel the appointment.
i started feeling less worried when I found hairballs in his puke, which is their natural way of getting rid of the fur they swllow when cleaning themselves.
but more recently there are no hairballs anymore but he still vomits, so I made a new appointment for next Wednesday.
so I feel stressed about managing to get him there, and more stressed about the possible outcome…
it is not easy sleeping with one ear open for vomiting sounds to be able to detect where more easily and to clean it up rightaway, otherwise I have ot check around the floor when I smell a suspect smell by feeling around, ha, or venturing to slowly walk around barefoot…
i love that cat so would continue doing all of that if I would know it is not threatening his health, but I also want to have him checked out for something that might need treatment…
I have tried all kinds of food, special food for sensitive stomachs, food focusing on the hairballs and facilitating their transit, out the back door so to say, and not only by vomiting.
that works to some degree, but still he pukes too often which worries me…
my brothers cat died last year of cancer on his stomach, and I dread that kind of grieving and pain and loss…
now I am mostly very afraid…
m
Maybe you need help to take him – either help to secure him in his cage before the trip, or to carry the cage for you, with the cat on a leash, and let the vet staff cage him on arrival.
Hi, Margaret. Sorry your kitty is feeling so poorly. I know I worry so when one of my pets is sick too. It’s a worry unlike any other, of helplessness, I think. I found this video on you tube that might give you some of the reasons for vomiting. Maybe it will help to focus on some of the causes and make the unknown not so scary. I listed these conditions in case the video does not work or you cannot access it at the bottom:
1. Malabsorption
2.Hyperthyroidism
3. Lack of digestive enzymes
4. Colitis or pancreatitis
5. Hair balls
6. Viral or bacterial infections
Happy Thanksgiving to all the Canadians here! It is a time to celebrate our harvest, so a holiday
almost every one can enjoy. Completely different this year of course – but in one way or another a time to enjoy & be grateful for family and friends & a delicious meal. Yes, you can all celebrate!
Leslie, Happy Thanksgiving!
This is hard to put into words. I feel so outside of the group, so apart from everyone else in the group, so jealous and so full of rage, so alone like the dog that was shot into space by the Russians long ago. Can’t say a word about this to the group. The abandonment by my mom long ago seems to fit the bill for this crippling, paralyzing feeling. There never were any words for this feeling. No tears to shed on this yet, if ever.
Guru, I am posting the following few posts in response to the information you provided on “spirituality”. It was fun reading and listening to most of it, so thanks! Here we go:
On Possibilianism. When I first started reading and then listening, I thought, yeah great, here is a guy who is open and proclaims everything is possible. I agreed with his term “the vastness of our ignorance” and the idea to open up to new possibilities. Then I thought it was weird that he would begin his talk with “Hallelujah” which is associated with religiosity, mostly the Christian faith. And he also calls it the “Gospel” of possibilianism, another religious term related to the Bible. Really, couldn’t he come up with his own terms considering the vastness of possibilities? I agree that the discussion should be expanded beyond the argument of God vs. No-God. But then he started losing me, when he proclaimed that it is only a possibility until it is proven impossible by science. That’s when I started thinking, he is not that open after all. He lost me when he said that ESP can’t be proven and therefore is not a possibility. He completely lost me when he read from his “gospel”- although quite amusing, for me it was more slapstick comedy than anything serious to take into consideration. So if I get it right, the possibilities are only possible if they fall within areas that can be proven scientifically. He encourages to look for more possibilities, but he is limiting the “valid” possibilities from the get go. I think this approach is eliminating too many possibilities and therefore I consider this approach very limiting.
What worried me, when looking at the audience, I thought that they were just looking for another leader or guru to follow. Which in itself shows how lost people are and desperately try to belong to something or somebody.
Just as a side note: Actually science has now found out that the heart has even more electro-chemical activity than the brain.
Guru, here are my random thoughts on “Death, Nothingness, and Subjectivity”. I get the logic that falling into the abyss, the black hole when dying is still “something”, that the peaceful oblivion is still a “something” therefore the concept of this theory is flawed from the very beginning. I agree with the idea that “awareness is constant” and that we can’t arrive at “nothing” because of this. I like and mostly agree with the statement “centers of awareness–don’t have beginnings and endings for themselves, rather they simply find themselves in the world”, and that this awareness will continue to exist in a different context. I don’t agree with his statement that there is nothing of the personality preserved when moving from one place of awareness to the next. The thought experience I found hard to digest; I found it a complicated way around to prove that energy can’t stop existing. —
Guru, I didn’t read all of this, so my reply is more like “a shot from the hip” —
The Simulation Argument is an interesting idea. I could only agree with this if I accept God/Source/All-consciousness as the programmer of the video game in which we all take place. In fact, I do believe that there is a bigger plan. That this planet doesn’t exist in a vacuum, but rather that we are influenced by cosmic energy, so to speak. Call it God or Consciousness, Love or Light, whatever.
Or: rather than we’re living in an advanced civilization’s video game, we could be some sort of experiment. It is quite possible that a super race is looking down on us and is watching us struggle, but then we only would be their subjects that they observe and study. They would not control us like in a video game, just watch, like humans watch an ant hill. I believe there are advanced civilizations; considering the vastness of the universe, it would be presumptuous to think we are the only intelligent beings in existence. I also believe that the human race is responsible for what we create. At the same time we can’t expect that either “God” or an advanced civilization is going to save us. This planet is entirely our own responsibility. It’s possible thought that we do get help from advanced civilizations in form of thoughts and ideas as to the advancement of our technologies, and as to the improvement of our human rights, conduct, and general living conditions. I think if there is such an advanced civilization looking down on us, they would be quite appalled at how we treat our planet, at the extent to which we destroy and kill, allow famine, starvation, war, etc. Much improvement and advancement is needed on this planet.
Hi Bernadette, thanks for devoting so much serious thought to the links I provided. I hope it gave you some food for thought to help refine your own beliefs in some small way. I am a bit indisposed for quite a few differing reasons, and I should mention I am not a hardcore researcher of my opinions. I simply cannot give much mind space to these topics today, though I am really glad I had a chance to share them with you for your review.
Of the three topics I presented to you (possibilianism, naturalism, and the simulation argument) I do agree with you that possibilianism seems to be on the shakiest ground. The simulation argument is strong enough to where it has already turned a few hardcore atheists in esteemed academic circles into agnostics.
Between outrage at asshole predator neighbors, trying to ensure my own long-term survival, and helping with house remodeling…my mind is already placed in a few too many inconvenient spots for extensive discussions today, though.
By the way, on the “humans being responsible for what we create”….It’s worth noting that we are already capable today, right now, of creating computer programs which can autonomously create OTHER computer programs, so I think it would be a trivial task for a civilization billions of years henceforth to create a veritable Cambrian explosion of autonomous beings with tightly compacted material code.
My wording above may sound unprofessional…it was just an additional thought
Today, anyone can already download a cute little game called “Dwarf Fortress” which procedurally generates deep, rich historical stories with random simulations of creatures, etc. All autonomously created by software code.
Combine this with nascent 3-D printing technology occurring today and I can already see the barest primitive rudiments of how a planet teeming with life can be intelligently created.
The universe is apparently 15 billion years old.
Earth is 4 billion years old.
This leaves an 11 billion year gap and plenty of time for some multi-billion year civilization to create staggering stuff just within the confines of our own universe! Never mind the possibility there could be something outside the universe which created this one.
Too much for me to think about, though.
Yes, and that leaves enough time to destroy Earth and start all over again a couple of times, too before we get it right. I am being facetious …Then again, Earth has had a couple cataclysmic events as proven, from which it has recovered.
The worries that I have with humans creating any “staggering stuff” is that we are coming from flawed thinking and feeling, and although we might advance technologically, the human factors – love, care, humility, kindness, compassion, empathy – cannot be created but can only be accessed inside our hearts. And I think that eventually we will always destroy ourselves if we don’t take these factors into consideration. I think the real future of the planet is through right thinking and feeling. And by the way, I think we are on the right path, as bad as it looks like right now….
Guru, as I said earlier in this conversation, I am not interested in debating about this topic either. Reading the information you provided was for curiosity only; I have made up my mind already. At the same time I have no need in convincing someone of my ideas. That doesn’t mean I can’t improve on it, no, I learn new things every day. What was interesting in the Simulation Agreement is that it explains in a scientific and technologic way (computers and artificial intelligence) in what I know and believe to be possible on a ethereal level. It’s almost like scientist do get some new awareness through the collective consciousness but because they don’t know how to interpret it outside of their intellectual minds, they make up advanced computer games and artificial intelligence in order to explain it. It’s fascinating. Who knows.
I hope your neighbor is not giving you too much grief! Hang in there!
Bernadette, I do sometimes feel as though 95% of Primallers believe death is the end of all experience, with you and I as the last few who are looking at other options. Daniel is possibly a third dissenter.
I am only one step removed from the belief of death as ‘the void’ and I am at peace with the label of ‘cautious agnostic’.
It seems as though books such as Eben Alexander’s “Proof of Heaven” would be appealing to you, though I never occasioned to read it.
By the way, Bernadette, you talked earlier about the heart having three times(?) as much electrical energy as the brain. I would think the brute force necessary to contract muscles constantly pumping blood throughout a 130-250 pound body would require a lot more electrical power than a brain that’s really sedentary in comparison.
A computer (analogue to a brain) would use less electricity than a water pump (heart analogue), so I really don’t place much spiritual meaning into a heart being more electric than the brain.
“It is well established that the brain uses more energy than any other human organ, accounting for up to 20 percent of the body’s total haul.”
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-does-the-brain-need-s/
Vicki, I certainly will place a great deal of credence towards that article, yet I thought I heard somewhere else in addition to what I thought I read earlier from Bernadette, totaling two sources from my memory, mentioning the heart using three times as much energy as the brain. Not sure what to make of it or how that came about.
Guru, this is what I said earlier: “ Just as a side note: Actually science has now found out that the heart has even more electro-chemical activity than the brain.” I didn’t put a specific value on it. I was surprised about it when I read it, just don’t remember where. If I find the article, I will post it here. Meanwhile there is this short article on the “little brain within the heart”
https://www.sciencenews.org/article/new-3-d-map-illuminates-little-brain-nerve-cells-within-heart
Vicki and Guru, Here is an interesting article:
“The heart has 40,000 sensory neurons sending information to the brain. … With an astounding electromagnetic field 5,000 times powerful than what the brain is producing and 60 times greater electrical field more than the activities in the brain.”
https://thriveglobal.com/stories/heart-over-brain/#:~:text=The%20heart%20has%2040%2C000%20sensory%20neurons%20sending%20information%20to%20the%20brain.&text=With%20an%20astounding%20electromagnetic%20field,the%20activities%20in%20the%20brain.
Guru, More and more near death experiences are being reported and analyzed by scientists now, and there is some proof of an existence after physical death. While not every person experiencing a near death experience has the same experience in the short period in the afterlife, it only proves that we each individually create our own life and afterlife realities according to our thoughts, feelings, and experiences. Although, there are similarities in all of the experiences; that of this overwhelming, out of this earth, profound, unconditional Love that they all perceive while in this realm. I didn’t read Dr. Eben Alexander’s book but have seen some YouTube videos. Fascinating, to say the least! It is especially intriguing because he is a neuroscientist who bases his knowledge on science and his own experience. Even though in a coma, as his neocortex was destroyed by meningitis, he said, his conscious awareness expanded tremendously. It proves that the brain does not create consciousness. And that consciousness exists outside of the physical body and mind. I love the way he brings together the scientific and quantum mechanics with the spiritual. This is definitely my kind of guy.
Bernadette, did you know of Eben Alexander before I mentioned him yesterday? Just curious.
I will place your heart material above under personal review and mull it over a bit. 50/50 chance I might comment on it.
Guru, I have seen some of his videos before but had forgotten about them. They are useful for getting some scientific evidence, much needed if one wants to discuss the topic with materialists. Can’t do it on faith only. I actually cringe slightly at his chosen book title “proof of heaven” – I wouldn’t put it that way because it has a religious connotation. I think “the other side” is more pragmatic or sensible, rather than heavenly and angelic. But then again, that might depend on the individual. As we all create our own reality on Earth, we may as well create our own reality on the other side. I don’t have the answer.
Bernadette, by the way a true gentleman chiropractor once sent me a book called “Experiencing the Soul” by Eliot Jay Rosen. I actually did read this book and it discussed the near death experiences of two dozen people across a broad variety of cultures, Pretty interesting book which you may also like alongside Eben Alexander’s.
I don’t think you would care too much for Dr. Susan Blackmore, though, as she simply says NDE’s are chemical reactions of a dying brain, nothing more.
Oftentimes when Jack was alive, he expressed chagrin at my neutrality on hot button topics.
I will re-assert my neutrality once more here. Swiss mountains are beautiful anyway.
I am starting to admire your courage too, Bernadette, for sticking firmly with your beliefs and saying so right here in a dense thicket of materialists who could be quietly shaking their heads at you and thinking you’re delusional.
So yeah, I do find your steadfastness a bit inspirational, if I may say so myself.
Guru, thanks, I guess, but funny… you know, I am married to a committed atheist who tells me every so often that I am delusional. I have a lot of practice at taking such criticism 🙂 On the other hand, I am also quietly shaking my head at his limited view, and that from my point of view, he is missing out on a lot of cool stuff. But that’s his choice and we don’t discuss it (anymore, ha!)
Guru, I don’t think there is anything wrong with keeping an open mind. I am always surprised that hard core materialists are so sure of themselves. They don’t have a shred of evidence that there is no “other side”. Truth is, no doctor or scientist has one shred of evidence that it is the human brain that produces consciousness. None! And yet when the brain is dead – clinically dead, nada, zip, totally no function – during a near death experience, the dead person still has many conscious experiences that they can remember. If they were “chemical reactions of a dying brain” then they would be measurable. But they are not. For me that is an indication that there is something more going on outside of and apart from our material brain.
Bernadette,
Just playing the devils’ advocate here. but people with near death experiences are still living. I’d like to hear from some actual dead people about their experiences. I wonder if any of them have near life experiences.
Phil
Phil, yes, but they were pronounced clinically dead by doctors. So they are the only ones who have experienced a dead state. If you want to hear from dead people, you have to talk to a psychic. They claim to have contact to dead people. Maybe they could ask them if they have near life experiences.
Bernadette, those are doctor’s mistakes, I think, declaring people clinically dead who were still alive. There can also be a kind of gray zone between life and death, like people brain dead in live bodies. My mother seemed to more or less have reached that status in my childhood. My brother was pretty far gone too.
Phil, if the brain has still some function, it would be picked up and measurable by the umpty machines that they hook you up on in ICU. I don’t think they are mistakes, that’s an assumption. I don’t think that doctors who have been hard core neuroscientists all their lives and have built themselves a reputation in the medical field now would put their reputation and careers in jeopardy for their new discoveries while researching NDEs. There must be some truth to this. I think people like your mother, although I don’t know her medical status, is different, as it IS terminal, there is no way back to a healthy brain from where she was. People who have experienced NDEs have come back with fully functioning brains, or recovered over a certain time period.
Bernadette,
Those people having near death experiences must be in overwhelming pain. I think Dr. Janov’s explanation would be that the energy of all that pain is rerouted into delusions created by the mind as an avoidance mechanism.
Similar to what I think he said about past life regressions, for example. Those ideas are unproven but consistent with other parts of primal theory, which holds a lot of attraction for me, reinforcing my own feelings on these things.
Phil
Phil and Bernadette, when in the primal mode, I ask myself, what is the need behind believing in a deity. On the surface there are many things in the bible I do not believe, like parting of the sea or Jonah’s survival from being swallowed by a whale. I consider it all to be a myth. But I find myself praying to God in times of crisis. That is what I need, to draw on what was familiar to me and helped me growing up. So to me it involves need. What do I need from these comforting thoughts and beliefs to do–to help me calm down and not be afraid. On the other hand believing in afterlife or near-death experiences, why do I need to believe those. I do not for the most part. But if the need to believe in them comes from my fear of death then I can see why one would want to believe in them. I have felt some of my near death baby and terror feelings, so there is not much resonance to the fear of death now except for the reflex to hang onto a good life. So I can accept that there is nothing beyond.
Anyway…just a few thoughts.
Margaret, i just picked up a 6-inch long hairball from one of our 2 long-haired cats, the white and black one. he vomits a lot too and occasionally screams out when we are sleeping, probably because of hairballs., i originally thought he screamed was because he missed his former owner, but after a while, it seemed more likely because of hairballs. blue buffalo makes both a hairball control, and also a sensitive stomach variety of dry food, maybe they have something similar where you are.
maybe some catnip in the cage would make it easier?
my feet have no trouble in finding his vomit, he usually is considerate enough to not vomit next to me while i am asleep. usually.
Vicki, Sulvia and Otto,
thanks for the feedback and support!
it could be helpful to have someone here to assist to put him in his travel cage with any other cat.
but this cat, pluche, is a bit suspicious about ’strangers’, so it is easier for me to catch him when being on my own.
normally I always managed to get him into the cage, but he is very smart and very fast and seems to have learned new tricks since the last time, so we will see on Wednesday how it goes.
I take a taxi to get to the vet, so the carrying is no big deal, and I prefer to do it myself anyway, other people can be amazingly uncareful and for example bump into corners with the cage and frighten the poor cat even more.
i remain close to it all the time to reassure him and talk to him, but it is hard when they meow in their large range of plaintive or undignified meows, I can’t help but feeling guilty, ha, even while i know I do the best for him.
Otto, I am sorry you did not speak up in group, I noticed right away hearing the list you were there and hoped you would talk.
i even mentioned your name during group but someone just started talking at the same moment and it remained unnoticed.
when the group ended I asked if you were still there, and called your name hoping you would be there like the last time being near the laptop listening and maybe still wanting to say something…
the feelings you are in sound awful but I do hope they don’t make you feel no one in group is interested in what you are going to or would like to say, I am sure not to be the only one.
it helps me to hear the other puke and hairball situations, really, to know it is not uncommon and not necessarily life threatening.
yesterday in group a cat was mentioned that lived 19 years happily despite of vomiting every day, which also was reassuring…
Margaret
Margaret, I’m thinking of you and I hope your cat Pluche is going to be okay! Good luck with the appointment on Wednesday!
Phew! back home with cat after very stressful morning!
Bernadette, thanks for your wishes as well!
my vet appointment was at 1.30 pm, and I could not feed the cat before for at least 12 hours.
so I had two hungry cats circling around me this morning and the cage still invitingly open on the couch since several days.
the only one who had used it for naps was the cat that did not have to go to the vet, Plukkie.
i would try not to make my first attempt of catching Pluche to put him in there too early to not to have him locked in there angry and scared for too long.
but at about 9.30 the opportunity was there to easily catch him at just a few steps from the cage, so I went for it and hurray, managed this time to use one hand to keep him inside and the other hand to push the door shut, and there he was, ready for a vet visit!
he tried various ways to escape and to convince me this treatment was unwanted and inappropriate, I took an extra half pill for my blood pressure, and called the veterinary clinic to explain I had been somewhat early to put Pluche in the cage, and if there was any chance they could give me an earlier appointment?
and yes, hurray, I could come by for one at 11 am!
perfect, so I rushed around searching all the stuff I needed, mouth mask, bankcard, apple juice as I felt my stress was soaking up energy and had been too big to properly have breakfast.
between racing around, munching this and that and feeding the other cat I called a taxi and finally got on my way with one complaining cat next to me.
the vet asked me many many questions, about the kinds of food, when what, in which trays and where, the litter boxes, it seems they should be, like the food trays, further apart from each other so every cat can eat, drink and pee and poo calmly in ‘his own spot’ without keeping an eye on the other cat, either to steal the food out of his bowl or to prevent it the other way around.
the vet said they can get along fine in our eyes, but their instinct is that of an animal mostly living on its own.
also I have to choose just one kind of dry food and one other kind of food, canned or fish or meat, and stick to that as variation can upset some cats digestive system.
so now I have four trays of the same dry anti-hairball food spread over the place, and will move one of the litter boxes to the other far end of the terrace, and hope that will do.
I should do this at least for two months in a row before evaluating whether it works.
so the good news is my cat looked so healthy despite the vomiting the vet did not even feel like taking a blood sample as she really did not find it necessary.
Pluches nails are cut and he ate and had a fine nap on the bed (me too) and we are ready to rock and roll again!
thanks for all the support, it really helped a lot not to feel on my own with this and to feel all of you cared.
I love vets, I have seen many and even did some volunteer work for one in Spain, and they were all wonderfully nice caring persons.
hope to see you all in group,
Margaret, and Pluche and Plukkie who also featured in a few groups already…
Margaret, I am glad that everything worked out for you – a nice case of synchronicity – and mostly I am glad that Pluche is well and healthy!
Last weekend was Thanksgiving in Canada. From Saturday to Monday I spent it in a national wildlife park with two long-time friends, a married couple. I consider them to be my best, closest non-primal friends. I’ve known John for 30 years. We seemed to relate the instant we met. I consider him to be a bigger version of me. I liked to jog. He ran marathons, and when he wasn’t, he was training for the next one. Only thanks to primal therapy I was able work through my fears sufficiently to be able to follow my passion and make a living in scientific ecological research, but only at the basic level as a technician. When I met John he was starting his Phd in entomology and eventually made is living in a highly responsible position as a provincial entomologist. I had to gradually work through and overcome my fears sufficiently to tentatively foray into volunteering to expand my life experience. John took on leadership volunteer roles in his church and community. That was the difference between him, his wife and I. They were regular church goers and earnest but not dogmatic or evangelistic about growing their relationship with God. I’m not one bit religious nor have a reason or need to believe in a God. But we had the same ethical, moral fiber, intellectual curiosity and passion for Nature. I looked up to them, John in particular. Being with them lifted my spirits and made me feel better about myself and life. When Noreen was a week in hospital for the last time 4 months before she died, John and Lynne flew in to see her and in doing so banished our loneliness and brightened us up considerably during their visit.
Until last weekend, I hadn’t seen them for a year or more. Due to intense preoccupation with my health issues this spring through to end of September, I fell out of touch with what was current in my friends’ lives. I was excited to spend time with them this past weekend, sharing our mutual interest in being in Nature and exploring the park and being together for Thanksgiving. They made the 4 hour drive from their home west toward the park, and I made the 6 hour drive east from mine. When I arrived and visited them in their B and B suite on Saturday evening, I was troubled by John’s uncharacteristically quiet and sombre mood, and his wife’s extra-animated behaviour that seemed to be a cover for exhaustion and worry. She is a highly anxious person. She gets panic attacks. John and her God have been her bulwark helping her get through life, but John was no longer quite who he used to be.
About 2 years ago John underwent surgery to repair a hernia. It seems like the surgeon destroyed a nerve to the thigh muscles in his right leg. As a result those muscles don’t receive nerve impulses that prompt them into action involved in movement. Nor do they receive impulses prompting them to grow in response to increased load stress. Those muscles are growing weaker and there is little John can do about it except try to slow it down. The loss of muscle support has put more stress on his hip joint and aggravated some arthritis that is getting much worse. His jogging days are over. He can’t walk far or stand long because pain becomes overwhelming. The next day while we explored the park together in my vehicle and did a few short hikes that he tried to cope with the pain and do, he was very uncharacteristically quiet and seemed depressed. Lynne was especially talkative, seemingly to fill the void or pretend all was normal. Sometimes while hiking, Lynne took the lead and went ahead, stopping now and then to wait for John to catch up. I walked with her and we found ourselves in conversation about coping with Life’s problems in general, but nothing specific because she didn’t bring it up. It felt obvious to me that she was a lost, hurting soul. At other times I stayed with John and drew him out, having our favourite conversations about science, Nature, and insects, being with him and reviving the bonds that drew us together.
I suspect that due to John’s withdrawal due to pain and unexpected physical limitations, their relationship is now under much stress. The next morning, our last day in the park, I visited their suite to have breakfast with them before leaving on the long drive home. They were revived, back to their old selves who I’d always known them to be. With evident relief Lynne told me that after our activities of the previous day, that evening she thought about what she and I had talked about, calmed down the panic attack that she was experiencing, prayed to God, cried while John held her in his arms, and thus recovered to her more posed self. To see them both in a far better mood, more like the friends I knew, momentarily lifted my sadness and concern for them, and gave me some hope that they would find a way to have quality of life together. This was the first time in our long friendship that I felt I was the bulwark providing them support through tough times. It was to me an unexpected reversal and new territory in our friendship. It made me feel lonely while at the same time deepening my feelings for them. It made me want to live physically closer to them, to be there for them. I feel very sad about the diminishment in what John can expect for what he can experience in his life, and diminishment in his sense of self-image. I feel very sad about the pain, depression and withdrawal he constantly wrestles with now, and the anxiety and loneliness it triggers in his wife. What happened to them makes me feel a angry toward life.
This morning thinking about that time of their last visit with Noreen when she was last in hospital, I succumb to crying again more deeply than ever over my loss. I sob spontaneously for longer durations in waves testing deeper and deeper water, telling her how she brought happiness to my life, opening my consciousness more to pain of more acceptance of the void and aloneness in my life following in the wake of her death. I cry in acceptance of how painful Life has been to me in my adulthood, and marvel that I have the strength to feel it
Larry, not to sound unempathetic towards John’s awful plight at the hands of the hernia surgeon or not to appreciate the stunning role reversal in your friendship, but I just wanted to add that it’s possible the entire universe could be a middle school child’s science fair project from two billion years in the future…so yeah, no need to worry about a God in that case.
I don’t follow your thinking, SSG, nor do I worry about a God anyway.
Larry…I should have rephrased it a little. I meant to say the universe might be a middle school child’s science fair project in a civilization billions of years more advanced than ours, so no need to be obsequious to a God in that case (as you already said).
Also, I think David Eagleman, the possibilianism guy, noted that the dichotomy of whether there is a God or no God could be irrelevant.
Just a thought. Not looking to argue.
Nor do I have any interest in arguing nor judging, SSG. I am curious to explore your thought process though, and maybe learn something from it. I don’t see how the example that you propose satisfies the question of whether or not there is a God and where did we and the universe come from, for if there is such and advanced civilization that created us for their amusement, then I wonder where did that civilization and it’s universe come from, the answer to which for some people would be an even more advanced civilization, for other people still God, for others agnosticism, and some are satisfied only by an evidence based answer.
That last snippet you wrote Larry, “some are satisfied only by an evidence based answer” reminds me of the many great scientists from the Renaissance era who never beheld any concrete evidence of radio waves.
Again I don’t follow your thinking. What scientists are you talking about and how is it relevant to our conversation? I think what you are saying is that people differ on whether they interpret the evidence as being strong enough to convince them to change their opinion or belief. Lots of people, even scientists, have a hard time changing their long held opinion or belief on whatever despite the evidence presented, and plenty of scientists believe in God.
Well I briefly thought of Isaac Newton, but that is only secondary to what I was musing about. The broader point I was making was simply that being satisfied only by the evidence in front of one’s face can be very self-limiting. That was all.
That’s why cultural knowledge is accumulated by there being enough curious people who keep looking for more satisfactory answers than are currently at hand.
Larry, I wonder if some physical therapy could help your friend John compensate for the missing nerve, that might improve his life — if he has not investigated that already himself?
Larry, that’s a beautiful thing that you were able to do for your friends.
Thanks Bernadette.
That’s what he is doing in order to maintain as much strength as possible for as long as possible in that leg. He has to be diligent about doing specific exercises with that leg every day without letup, because otherwise it will quickly deteriorate irreversibly.
The state of my marital relationship has been bothering me, and is a big trigger because it’s my primary relationship. We talked about it last week, she agrees we’re doing poorly, it’s not just my feeling, and talking about it was somewhat helpful, but things still aren’t that good. I’m not very patient. I had some feelings this morning about it.
In the past, with my old feeling which gets triggered, it seemed like there was nothing I could do, regarding my mother. She was unapproachable and basically dead to me, long before she died; although deep inside I had hope that some kind of miracle would happen. Really just a fantasy. This was a very heavy feeling to deal with on my own.
But my father wasn’t a help with any of this, or any other problems I experienced as a kid. I felt he was useless, of no help for me at all, not even able to listen. I turned away from him because of that, which meant I didn’t have anyone. The feeling today involved trying, asking, to get something from him, which in reality should have happened. He was healthy, unlike my mother.
Phil
Phil, it’s quite possible that those people were in a lot of pain, but I don’t see why that should refute their experience. It is after all our overwhelming pain that is responsible for and creates our primals and we don’t say that our primals are delusional, even though they sometimes seem to come out of thin air. Out of no-memory land, suppressed, forgotten, buried experiences. In fact, we insist that our primals are more real, or at least as real as our current state of mind, which is in a lot of pain when we experience the primal. In fact, the pain needs to be available, has to be present in order to produce a primal and the associated memories. Without the feeling and reexperiencing of the pain, we would not have a primal and would not have the memories associated with it.
You brought up past life regression. This implies reincarnation, which is a whole other beast. There are people who regress into past lives and all of a sudden speak a foreign language fluently during the process, or know the intricacies of a foreign city that they have never seen before in this life. Where do you think this sudden knowledge should originate? The theory is that this knowledge was acquired in a past life. Of course nothing is proven, but it is very intriguing to me.
I don’t have the answers either, but I am keeping an open mind about it all. I know that humanity has not come to the end of its discoveries. It would be presumptuous to think that we have all the answers at this point and that there is not “more” to explore than what we have discovered so far.
Silvia, thanks for joining the conversation. You made your position clear and what you say makes sense. Here are my thoughts:
I think that believing in a man-made god, the bearded guy sitting on his throne on a cloud, the one that people pray to when they need something (comfort), and deny that he exists when he doesn’t give them what they want (end man-made war), and who is the source of punishment or reward depending on what you did, is on one hand quite naive, and on the other hand quite hypocritical. At the same time, I respect people of faith. If this belief is what they need in order to make it through life, then I will not judge them.
But that’s not what I am talking about. I think there is an all omnipresent energy from which everything originated, it has been called many names – God, Light, Source, Supreme Consciousness, Om, etc. – it can never cease to exist. This energy can be perceived and observed and measured, although it can’t be grasped or understood with the mind, it is on a higher, or you could say, on a deeper level. So my take is, when the human body dies, this energy or consciousness remains.
The stories in the bible are parables, and are not to be taken literally. They have a deeper meaning behind them.
I am not quite sure I believe it when people say that they are not afraid of dying. Everyone is (unless you believe in an afterlife). It’s a human condition. I go even so far as to assert that these people are more afraid of the possibility of a life after death than total annihilation. The uncertainty of what lies beyond is so staggeringly frightening, that it is easier for them to believe there is “nothing” so they don’t have to experience or feel anything anymore, rather than taking a chance of an afterlife that they are not certain of, but that could be so much more than they experience in life. By the way, there is absolutely no proof that there is no life after death. So your idea of “nothing beyond” is also an assumption and, I could say, as delusional as a belief in an afterlife.
Thank you for your response, Bernadette. I believe in some kind of universe synchrony, like bad things happen in 3’s. That something comes along just when you need it. I think there is a harmony in life that I can’t explain, but do observe. I am delighted when seeing these things.
It is a bit lonely when my friends and family think a little different than I do and have a faith or vote for a trump, but fortunately they are kind and generous people and they have their reasons or influences of why they think a certain way, as do I.
I guess I see nothing beyond as just a practical and seeming real thing. I bury a cat or a dog. He is in the ground, no longer there to play or eat or enjoy life. I just accept it, that that is the end. I’d like to think at times that they are some place frolicking about, just for a minute to ease my pain. I wish my mom was with my dad and not have dementia, as all the psychics say, that people become well again when they go to the beyond. But I visit them as healthy in my dreams so I will settle for that.
I probably am afraid of dying, especially when there is pain and the fear of the body giving up and the immediate fright that goes along with it. But generally, I don’t care if there isn’t an after life. So, I don’t give much attention to it. I haven’t thought about energy beyond so I don’t know what to say about that. Thank you for your thoughts.
Silvia, thanks for your thoughts! Yes, I love synchronicity – when something happens just at the right time when it is needed. This type of thing happens to me when I am more connected inside. I like the way you put it, a harmony in life.
I agree that it feels lonely at times when friends and family disagree with the way I think, but it also serves a purpose for me: It makes me question and investigate my beliefs – nothing wrong with that – I always learn something more, but then I come back to my beliefs, and the icing on the cake: my beliefs are confirmed and strengthened. Most of my friends and family are not on the same wave length as I, but as you said, generosity and kindness, and I would add mutual respect and tolerance overrides all those differences. We get along just fine.
I do believe that people get well again when they cross over to live in the afterlife. And that people who love each other in this life will meet again on the other side. I believe your mom will be okay.
Back on earth: do I ever agree with you on Trump! I have voted early, and I am grateful that we have plenty of polling places and drop off boxes here in California! It is pretty crazy what’s happening in some of the republican states! I am sending a silent prayer to the universe for the right outcome in this election. And I am crossing my fingers that the polls are right this time!!
Bernadette, I’d be curious to know how you might respond to Janov’s writings in the “New Primal Scream” where he was describing terrible things happening to babies who didn’t have the capacity to become mystical (or, as he added, incapable of smoking cigarettes or going to a movie to ease pain).
I have some possibilities of my own I’ve considered about this, yet I wondered if you could elaborate on how the hereafter would ‘make things right and well’ for those who died before such a hereafter concept could be conceptualized?
I figure it’s worth covering all bases, so that’s why I ask.
“before such a hereafter concept could be conceptualized” sounds really hokey and I should have dropped the word ‘concept’ to clean up the sentence.
Hi, Bernadette, I am in CA too, but in the northern part. Pretty much trump territory, conservative-cowboy type atmosphere. High co-vid rates due to not adhering to a safe protocol. I watch psychics on youtube to get my news on the political situation since they have to know what they are talking about and are well-versed. It’s mostly for the comfort and reassurance that everything will be all right. Hope they are right, but it is still nice to read the comments from others who are concerned about the state of affairs.
A guest psychic who predicted all the fires on the west coast states also predicted an earthquake next summer in CA. June 21 to be exact. I don’t know if I believe it, tho I will be relieved if it’s a wrong prediction. I will secure my dish cupboards anyways if I remember to look on my marked calendar. He said aliens walk among us too, so there’s that to consider in his believability quotient. Good for a laugh, anyways. Take care.
S
–I have a 120 year-old maple tree in my front yard. A beautiful, majestic maple with some branches overhanging the neighbor’s (ie. predator who surrounds me) property. Tree is 50-60 feet tall.
–A top-notch lawyer moves in next door as a renter (with predator as his landlord). White shoe outfit lawyer, high accolades.
–I was tending hedges one day and briefly talked to lawyer’s wife.
–The predator neighbor (not the lawyer) notices this and screams for our attention as a distractive measure.
–I immediately sense the predator was alarmed at seeing my talking to the lawyer’s family.
–I remember the history of how the predator lies, sociopathically, to get his way with others.
–Did this possibly mean the predator was lying about my living circumstances to “work” the lawyer for his own gain?
–I mailed a series of letters to the lawyer, explaining the deep history of the neighborhood dating back over 100 years.
–Predator had a livid look on his face.
–Predator hired a tree service behind my back and chopped off one third of the entire maple tree.
–Entire tree is now dying two years later.
–I am so angry I haven’t been able to function for two days now upon realizing what’s going to happen to the tree.
This is on top of the streetlight anger I described some weeks ago.
A totally different anger-inducing issue now.
So basically I called out some significant lies I *suspected* the Predator told the lawyer to achieve some sort of goal in the neighborhood which would work against (I think I know what that goal may have been, too).
So…it’s reasonably clear I was correct in my suspicions, else this lovely maple tree wouldn’t be dying now. A lovely maple already fully robust and mature when I was a baby.
I am so angry I’ve been paralyzed for almost two days and I just…am at my wits end with this sort of bullshit
The lawyer next door is long gone, left almost two years go, out of state.
We parted on amicable terms where he left me cryptic messages of “many thanks for being an excellent neighbor”
correction: “achieve some sort of goal which would work against ME (no big surprise there)”
It was a such a sweepingly huge canopy just steps from my front porch….
The sweet, fresh smell of natural leaves arching in a nearly 20 foot diameter canopy well above my head each year. Birds nesting, squirrels hunting within the bends and crevices of the tree’s numerous secondary and tertiary branches.
This tree was so special because the wood was semi-ancient, clocking in at well over a century of age…mixing the musty smell of venerable wood mixed with reliably sweet natural verdant leaves each and every reliable year completely surrounding your physical body under the canopy…the whole sensation of which can’t be replicated by younger trees.
Each fall was a beautiful sight as well…leaving a covering of leaf carpet of reds, oranges, burnt ambers, browns, and even a few hints of magenta here and there.
A reliable huge carpet of leaves lovingly smothering the grass below.
Beautiful, reassuring, relaxing…
I really loved that tree.
I have one more tree left which is not quite as good, but still very large and mature…I think these two trees operated as a loving symbiosis each year..
Now there is just a shocked widowed lone tree whose trunk literally seemed to recoil a few inches away from the chopped up tree.
I’m just a babbling idiot right now.
Those two trees together made a terrifically romantic fall leaf carpeting each year.
It was just so majestic, right at my front porch.
I’m…
A century old quiet natural splendor and majesty giving birth to new, refreshing verdant leaf sprouts each year completely ruined by some colossal sociopathic prick who was outraged I called out his suspected lies to an important person.
So, am I just gonna…..stay here in my chair…stunned all night? I just might
Guru, it’s clear you have strong feelings about your very nasty predator neighbor. It wasn’t nice of him to have a large part of your beloved tree pruned off. Unfortunately he had the right to do that where the branches hung over his property. Another thought I had on what you wrote is that pruning off one third of a tree’s branches isn’t likely to kill it. Other factors may have contributed to it’s condition. On the other hand, I think it’s practically a crime to cut down large historic trees.
Directly across the street from us our neighbors had a huge oak tree cut down a few years ago, for no good reason. A crime, in my mind, but they had the right to do that. I’m glad that many years ago I planted a lot of trees on my property and allowed others naturally seeded to grow. So now I at least have control over the plant growth in my immediate environment, or try to, as my wife has some contrary views on this issue. Phil
Phil. since we’ve been familiar with each other for almost a decade & we did a small amount of buddying in the past I will be happy to send you an exact Google Earth picture of the situation so you can see for yourself. Just ask Gretchen for my email if you feel like checking it out.
It’s amazing how Google has become so powerful that it has the wherewithal to home in and show in stark terms the exact damage that was done to my front yard.
Guru, you can send it to this email address if you want: phiban@msn.com.
It seems as though Margaret and maybe others are politely respecting the tempo of this blog discourse and waiting their turn to speak.
I’m all finished now. My anger is drained and I am simply exhausted.
If anyone wants to talk about their own concerns such as Margaret’s cat and so forth, by all means go ahead.
Thank you for your polite waiting if you did so. No need to give feedback on my problems if you don’t feel like bothering with it.
Well look, since no one except Phil is saying anything at all…
Jesus, my brain is broken!
My anger at this situation has seriously impaired my actual function these past two days.
Just the same tightly looping angry theme at the predator dickwad.
I can’t seem to break out of the acidic, vile thoughts.
I’m just a guy angrily muttering to himself not breaking out of the loop.
I did mail a bunch of letters off to relatives and city officials. but that’s all I could do.
Please, get this dickwad out of my mind??
I’m very afraid this predator will surreptitiously have someone tear down what’s left of the tree over the next week or two behind my back so that any evidence of his malice is removed. Just a tree stump. I K-N-O-W he is capabie of doing this shit. Similar shit (such as the upper cut done earlier) was all done while I wasn’t watching.
He **DEPENDS** on me not being aware when a fast one is pulled.
These thoughts are overpowering me, exhausting me
I do NOT want to sit here hour after hour day after day fearfully watching a tree, worried a hired hand will walk up with a chainsaw while they think I am not watching.
I am dealing with an active person who seriously DOES this shit! And it makes matters worse if I was accused of being paranoid.
FUCK!
When this asshole chopped off half of that one tree I was out of town for a few hours and came home to a terrifying shock of seeing all these lumber bits in a huge cart, ready to be hauled away.
See why I am scared? This sort of shit is not beneath him even though he is a MULTI-MILLIONAIRE.
A multi-millionaire maliciously cutting my beloved tree all because I exposed his lying to a very important lawyer.
Once the cut was made he drove by in his car pointing and wagging his finger at me, laughing with glee and ‘duping delight’…so no question it was malice, and he wanted to make sure I KNEW he did it maliciously.
I feel like that woman who was in the old black and white movie “Operator” where she became increasingly agitated at a man coming upstairs going to murder her. SHe was stuck at home, bedridden and paranoid.
I was mistaken about the movie I was referring to.
It was “Sorry, wrong number” from 1948 with Barbara Stanwyck
Forget the “Operator” movie
I am being seriously mentally hurt by this wretched human, and I do mean INJURED, and I am having trouble putting things together enough to extricate myself from this.
Guru,
I have read all your comments, but have been very busy all week or very tired, didn’t even attend Sunday (my) evenings primal zoom group.
but I would also be extremely frustrated and pissed off and hurting if someone inadvertently would damage so seriously a tree in my yard.
I love trees and respect them, and this must be very hard for you to dope with, specially with the smirking provocations on top of it all…
so sorry for you, all I can think of for you to do now is to install some kind of camera, like one of those that spot wildlife and start taking pictures when they detect some movement.
as the tree is entirely on your property now that idiot would do something illegal when he would again damage the tree intentionally.
I hope that does not happen but then you would have some proof at least.
I hope the tree recovers, maybe you could find something to take care of it a bit?
didn’t i ever hear you mention lawyer friends?
good luck, and keep writing all you want,
M
Hi Margaret, I am really touched by your message of support. I know I haven’t reciprocated well in that area…but I don’t have a pet so cat vomiting problems are out of my league.
I absolutely love trees too, and yes this person deliberately did what he did specifically to injure me emotionally because he was outraged at my exposing his lying.
I should emphasize that I called out this man’s pack of lies purely as a DEFENSIVE measure, because I was very concerned he was trying to use this lawyer to perform services against my best interests in some way uncertain to me. Once the lawyer knew the truth, though, he quickly warmed up to me and the tree cutter’s rage boiled forth, killing the tree. I had a suspicion at the time that the lawyer was generally ethical, but may have been misled with purposely bad information.
I’m sad to say the tree will not recover, Margaret. All of the branches are drooping down and barely holding leaves anymore. The other tree still has most of its leaves with firm branches.
You know, since the tree has a huge trunk, maybe after the tree dies I could cut the trunk about 10 feet above ground level and strip the bark for a wood cylinder carving of a giant 10-foot tall phallus engraved with “In tribute to a colossal tree-murdering prick” and personalize it with the sociopath’s name?
Guru,
I agree with Margaret that a security camera might be a good idea. It looks to me that the tree was somewhat close to the property line and a large part of it was hanging over his yard. Ideally he would have discussed the situation with you before having anything done.
Since you want to stay there, another idea might be to have a fence installed, even though a good one could be costly. It could help address these issues and give you more of a feeling of security. You could also plant another tree. None of this will fix what already happened, and it sure doesn’t seem like a friendly atmosphere you have there.
I hope things will improve.
Phil
Margaret’s idea of a security camera is very good, however, I am carefully watching my pennies anymore and I’d rather not spring for it if I can help it. DItto for fences.
I will say this fearful situation of his doing something shitty behind my back will only be temporary until proof is shown to others or replacement plans made. I just have to watch things like a hawk during business hours and that sucks.
I know it’s just a fantasy, but with Michael Bloomberg’s billions I could bring all of this nonsense to a perfectly legal and satisfying end, step-by-step…and walk away to a truly fresh start in my mind as well. One can dream, I guess…
Guru,
Bloomberg dropped $100 million for the democrats in Florida. In a little over two weeks we’ll find out if it was for a winning effort. After maybe he’ll be willing to help.
Haha, yeah you know old Jack was right, though. Sometimes true freedom is only for the billionaires.
Jesus, with $50 billion I could really fuck everything up nine ways to Sunday for the predator. The hunted would become the hunter. I would have a battalion of lawyers to ensure everything I did was barely legal and enough to make him wake up in a cold sweat every night wondering what my next move would be.
That’s part of the pain of dealing with an asshole like this, I constantly have to wonder what he will do next which will make my life more miserable in some subtle way.
Guru,
Bloomberg got so rich by making good deals for himself. I just looked it up, he was the son of a bookkeeper, and was a self made man. Maybe a good deal for you both personally and financially could be to move away from such a predator neighbor.
Phil
Phil, I sent you an email. Let’s chat there?
I SHOULD HAVE LISTENED. SHE IS GONE AND IT WAS NOT PRETTY
I’m sorry, Otto. It never is easy. I recall bad nights and waiting for the end instead of quick results at the vet’s. There’s always some regrets about doing things differently and there’s never an easy choice. Take care of yourself, Otto. You were a good pet care-giver–remember that. You cared for your dear one. Rest and take care.
S
Otto, how sad your dog is gone.. that’s so tough.
Otto,
I’m very sorry about your dog.
Phil
My condolences, Otto.
I feel sad for your loss Otto.
STUPID FUCKING DOG
Whoever designed Life Otto, didn’t think it through very well, because the way it works death comes to all living things eventually, and when it comes to someone or a pet close to us we hurt an awful lot. It’s not your fault that you loved her so much and now will miss her for a long time.
Otto, I’m so sorry. Please don’t start beating yourself up. You were a great dog dad . I am so sad for you. Gretchen
thx gretchen
no more nails clicking on wood floor as she walks down the hall to go outside
no more walks at the park
thx sylvia
the nail clicking on the wooden floor will be the hardest thing.
I know what you mean
Guru, Reading what you wrote last night does concern me. I can understand your love for the tree and I get that you feel he cut the tree as revenge for something you said. At the same time, if I understood correctly, it is technically not on your property. I have no way of knowing what goes on with your neighbor but I do know that how this is impacting you and how you are handling it is not healthy for you. Phil has suggested you consider finding another, more peaceful place to live. When you find yourself up all night staring at the tree and hoping your neighbor does not return, well, that’s when you know there is a problem. You have to consider how much of your life you have spent obsessing about this neighbor and what he does or does not do. It is not worth it and it’s no way to live not to mention that you have no say in any of this. You can’t have a war if one side does not show up. I think you might also consider that at least some of the grief you are feeling is connected to the loss of your dad. You said it would make matters worse if you were accused of being paranoid. No one has said that but I wonder if that is something you have wondered about. Maybe that was the reason you preferred to talk to Phil privately . I just want to reassure you that I don’t think you need have concerns that what you write here will be seen by this neighbor. When we are focused on someone we can tend to think they are equally focused on us, this is often not the case. Anyway I hope you will take care of yourself and find a way to disengage from this toxic situation. Gretchen
I think your assessment of the situation is grossly unfair, ridiculously unfair.
I would have felt so much better if you had simply said, “Your neighbor is a sociopathic dogshit prick, Guru. I’m sorry. Fuck him and I hope you get your revenge for all the bad things he and his family has done to your beloved childhood area for his massively inflated ego and financial gain.”
That sounds much better.
By the way, the entire tree trunk IS on our property. Only about a third of the tree was overhanging across the line. It had been doing so for 30 years or more and enabled the tree to live past a century. The ONLY reason the chopping was done was due to my communications with the lawyer as explained earlier.
I do agree this entire matter has infested way too many of my brain cells.
I also feel I am owed a massive amount of compensation for the long-term mental anguish this has caused.
Also, I think it’s rather hideous to be termed as “obsessed” about this when I am literally, PHYSICALLY surrounded as Vera Coking was with Trump’s casinos.
Labelling me as ‘obsessed’ has a ‘blaming the victim’ feel to it.
If I was on a small life raft in the Pacific Ocean, could I develop an obsession with the water? Would it be healthy?
It would be healthy to focus all your attention on accessing fresh water somehow and working out the best way of eventually safely getting off that raft, rather than obsessing about your predicament and bemoaning your fate.
Larry
Larry, I’d respond in more detail to your semi-sassy comment, but I want to get out of the way for Otto and others for a while.
I was just replying and giving my opinion as you asked, SSG.
Larry, very wise comment! I will use this analogy in my own life.
(If Otto speaks up again I will shut up again, no problem)
One of the reasons why truly solving my problem in a deliciously satisfying way would cost as much as $50 billion?
The predator’s mother lives in a fancy house on a hill with a nice view of a town. The hill is elevated about 200 feet above town.
As long as my battalion of personal lawyers checked all nooks and crannies of the law, it would require a $100 million investment in a 30 story office building to permanently block his mother’s view (all done for business purposes, of course).
Small punishment for her anyway since my own mother had a much worse fate than the predators’.
Then I would get to work on some very creative multi-billion dollar solutions with the predator himself.
Yeah yeah just dreaming.
Yeah Gretchen, if you wanted to love me unconditionally the optimal, the very best response you could have offered is, “Here’s $50 billion from my private consortium’s Cayman Islands accounts. Methodically solve your problems using this monetary tool and meet me back in Los Angeles when you finally feel satisfied, never to walk back home again. And bring me the leftover change…”
If as a child you lived somewhere next to some sweet older ladies who gave you hugs and snacks, told you stories and made you laugh while you enjoyed the cozy atmosphere alongside their 90 year old mother, would that help improve the quality of your childhood? Where these ladies always talked to you and thought of you as their friends?
What do you do when an upstart businessman buys out their house and forces them out of their 30 year home, then taking a wrecking ball to their charming old house turning it into a parking lot, AND to shine two prison-grade spotlights across the new parking lot into my own house every night he did business?
Did I ever talk about how this man jumped up and down on my porch, threatening me after that?
That was the woman with the house on the hill’s husband.
So yeah it really sucks to see assholes win.
Those three ladies always tried to give me uplifting birthday parties, too. Loud, gregarious ladies who could find a way to keep me laughing….until Mr. Big Business came along and took it all away.
Boom, BOOM! went the wrecking ball, just feet from my house.
Now the tree’s gone from my yard.
Where’s that $50 billion, Gretchen? I have a shitload of useful, creative, legally vengeful implementations ready to go.
That really takes a special brand of assholery to be able to throw out three sweet old ladies (and one of the ladies’ quiet husband) from their 30 year home, and it wasn’t even for non-payment of rent! Then to go on and destroy that home?
Yeah, that’s my neighbor!
At least they always ADVERTISE themselves as terrific people.
There’s no way I could find it in my heart to every do that to elderly ladies who never did anything to me at all. I would feel like shithead from hell every night after doing something like that.
Yet the people who want the land under my house can do stuff like this.
Our knowledge and understanding can always be broadened (assuming knowledge is infinite), so I might make select exceptions to my rule above given enough compelling reasons.
Guru,
It sounds like you want your neighborhood to go back to how it was during your childhood, but that’s impossible. Things have changed.
Phil
Oh I know, things have changed even more dramatically than you realize…and you’ve seen a picture now. I’m reminiscing about the traumatic teardown next door to my house when I started college. It was a real jolt for me, a tough wake up call from the land of innocence down the road to hardened cynicism.
Otto, I heard those nails on the floor for the longest time. Gretch
i’m sorry about your loss Gretchen. was that Pavlov? you willed him to live. I can’t get out of my mind when sophie came to live with us in tucson. she was a full of joy dog and wanted to play. i have told her, from time to time, that i would be right behind her, and seeing her die today reminds me that i and b will be facing that ourselves some day. and surely it is sooner now. selfish thought but whatever. it’s the ultimate reality.
jo and phil you are sweet to say that to me. i’m a loser and i’ve lost someone who is dear to me. not the first time. but sweetness from everyone helps.
I am sorry I cannot express more empathy towards your loss, Otto. I’m dealing with some terribly toxic influences which make it harder for me to feel deeply for others.
I will shut up and make room for you, no problem.
Otto, I don’t think anything you have said is selfish. You said you told her “ I will be right behind you”. I love that thought, very sweet. Yes Pavlov died at age twenty, I think I did will her to live. My vet said he had never had a dog that was twenty ! I swore I would never adopt again and then one year later I found Harlow. Also adorable! I really did hear Pavlov’s nails on the floor for the longest time but it did get easier with time. I remind myself that our pets had great lives and that they no longer suffer. It was doggie Disneyland every day ! Gretch
thanks, gretchen. anyway, no more walking the dog. maybe she had stopped wagging her tail when i dangled her harness in front of her, but even today, as sick as she was getting, she jumped up. last walk today, in the dark by the park 630am. no walking, just some sniffing and looking. of course i thought that this could be our last walk together and it was. damn.
i wont miss a godamn thing because very early i learned to shove shit down inside of me and forget. but if i drive past the vet in the future, i will be reminded of this pain, and feel sad again.
guru, you are fine. i rarely stick around after posting. i often feel the same way about empathy towards others. . i hope the toxics back off
until we meet again, beautiful dog https://youtu.be/Suct_RlXxko
i put her outside on my back porch a little while ago on her cushion in the cool night. playing the entertainer to invite the outside cats to come say goodbye. the cats she would chase away a bit to show she was a hound. i saw her getting up to go down the stairs as she always did. well, i guess, not really., not this time. sorry i just got to cry bye bye sweet doggie. no more barking at the neighbors when the front door is open. https://youtu.be/Suct_RlXxko
dear Otto,
I am so sorry about Sofie.
I watched the videos and it struck me, how with you next to her on her walks, softly talking to her, she must have felt like the safest and happiest little dog around!
also you caressing her was so touching, Gretchen is so right, your dog had the best dog daddy and she must have felt so loved and cared for.
thinking of you,
Margaret and cats
thanks margaret. me and family, wife, kids and pets had some good times together with each other. sophie was the last dog. you might have been looking at otto’s video’s. i only put sophie’s last morning on there YESTERDAY https://youtu.be/Suct_RlXxko . HOPE YOU AND YOUR WONDERFUL CATS HAVE MUCH PLEASURE AHEAD.
Otto, Sofie and gently talking with her, a 39 second video.
the other one I saw before was a dog on a pillow and hands stroking her and stroking her, again and again.
could have been a cat as I don’t see the details, but I assumed it was Sofie as well then.
good to hear about many other good times you and kids and wife and pets had!
M
i was talking with a customer and slightly joking around a little and i dont feel like i am allowed to be happy, with sophie lying in my bed 5 feet away. or to be happy in any degree ever again. i want to scream out vile rage to god or mother nature or the universe or mom for this cruel setup called life, but i dont have a primal room and probably never will. maybe it will hit me sometime when i am driving and i will tell those entities how i feel. anyway, take sophie to the crematorium later today, hard to let go and say goodbye.
i feel so bad for the incompetent care i have given the many pets that i have ever owned. especially yesterday with sophie. utterly incompetent and horrible. not to mention how i raised my kids. i assume my childhood upbringing had something to do with this i won’t rag on myself; i am just so sad that this has been the story of my life. soon to the crematorium. at least i had her in my bed last night and today to talk to her for the last few times.
Otto, I feel sure you are a really good at taking care of pets. Any dog would be very lucky to have you as an owner. Phil
Otto, I am so sorry about your doggie. I can tell how much love and tender feelings you had for her, and still have, from the way you are writing about her. It is truly heartbreaking to lose such a lovely companion. My heart goes out to you.
Guru, you asked “I wondered if you could elaborate on how the hereafter would ‘make things right and well’ for those who died before such a hereafter concept could be conceptualized?”
The very interpretation is flawed because the hereafter is not conceptualized by the mind once it is experienced. It happens outside of the conceptual mind of the human being, on a higher (or deeper) level. Of course people imagine things before they die, make up beautiful heavenly landscapes and angelic beings floating around, but that is a human mind-made fantasy. What ‘really’ happens after death is different, from what I understand.
On another note: it looks like you are going through hell with your neighbor right now, and the feelings it brings up for you. I will read all your posts about it to get up to speed before I comment on it.
Bernadette, OK that sounds fair, thanks for answering the question. It’s likely impossible for humans to know what any hereafter might be like, especially since we view it from an anthropocentric lens.
You’re welcome to give feedback on the neighbors, yet you’re never obligated. I needed to do some SERIOUS venting over a long period because I am having debilitating anger difficulties arising from the whole mess. I’m just trying to find some relief from rage constantly coursing through my veins every time these assholes cross my mind, just so I can carry on with daily chores and self-rehabilitation. A small part of me would love to let you know the nature of these neighbors, yet I am too concerned about personal safety and security to share that here. I don’t need defamation lawsuits in my life.
The last two sentences I wrote above to Bernadette about defamation are also a response to Gretchen’s previous assurances that neighbors aren’t reading this blog.
I can’t afford to take chances like that. If I was slapped with a defamation suit I would lose all kinds of sleep week after week, worrying, “Oh shit, am I going to lose my savings? Will I be in debt and penury for the rest of my life? Will I be asking people in McDonalds, ‘Would you like fries with that?’ until I am old and crinkly?”
It would add infinite insult to injury knowing I was legally forced to hand off my savings to people I utterly despise with all my being.
If Gretchen wants to buy me a $10MM comprehensive legal liability insurance policy, then I will take her assurances more seriously.
thanks bernadette. we just got back from crematorium. put sophie in the car, came back without her. she did not jump up on the porch, she did not wait for me to open the door or take off her harness or lay down on her pad. i cant believe this level of grief and i dont want to let myself cry again. we are both beside ourselves.
Otto, then I am crying for you! It is so very painful!
Silvia, I keep forgetting that there is a whole other California, cowboy country, etc. Do they carry guns? I’ve mostly lived in the LA area since I arrived in this country in 1984, and I’m glad of it. I like the progressive, laid back, nobody gives a shit about the next person anonymity, ha! Actually, this has changed a bit since the pandemic started and people are stuck at home: neighbors actually talk with each other now across the garden fence or out on the sidewalks. That’s nice to see. I hope you are safe with all the fires!
I am very cautious with psychics. Although I have heard of some good ones who are able to completely set aside their personality and only channel what comes through from the spiritual world. But a lot of them have their personal interpretation and then it’s just only that, a personal opinion laced with their own hopes and fears, not a true message from the spiritual world. It never occurred to me to listen to a psychic about the political situation, but truly, it is probably as accurate as any of the news casts! And better be safe than sorry about your dishes!
Generally, I do believe that things always work out for the best. If it doesn’t look that way at the moment, then it is only a sign that we need to learn from the current situation and then change things for the better. Or in other words: sometimes it has to get worse before it can get better.
Hi, Bernadette, Yes, I think psychics just talk about their own opinions too. It is refreshing to get some of the political news from them because they aren’t beholding to a boss or network. It’s like sitting around with some friends who can speak their minds about human nature, and then there are the comments for anyone to chime in with their own views. I like reading the vents and knowing I’m not alone in my opinions.
I do intend to box up some favorite old glassware in June, just in case there is a quake. But I think it will probably hit So. CA harder– watch out! just my psychic intuition–hah.
Cowboys that I have seen don’t carry their guns in public. Maybe political radicals would, though I wouldn’t want to be near them. It’s mostly a family type western-agricultural area. The kids next door were in 4-H, learning how to raise rabbits, goats and steers. Crops raised here are walnuts, almonds, and prunes mostly. Rodeos are big here and in the surrounding counties. They were all cancelled last spring because of the co-vid 19. But I grew up in the southern part of the state so I don’t have the western theme in my blood like a lot of the townsfolk do. It’s not idyllic, though, there is crime and drugs, like just about everywhere. We do have a lot of smoke from fires north and south this summer and are still on fire watch from all the winds. We look out for grass fires is about all in this little area.
I hope things work out for the best too, and the right person gets elected. I voted by mail as soon as I got my ballot and read all the props. I think we already hit bottom so there’s only one way to go–up. Fingers crossed!
i have never been so sad, SO TORN UP in my life, except when my mom also went away in october. 1952. october darkness hits me hard. thank god b has friends, i cant help her with her sadness at all. what a hole, what a void. dog was a major portion of my life. all the previous times we lost a dog, there was always a dog with us to keep taking for wALKS FEEDING ETC. SOPHIE WAS THE laST DOG. I WILL NEVER HAVE A DOG AGAIN.
WELL AT LEAST CATS WILL CHEER ME UP https://youtu.be/MQGzrEZTjB8
Guru, I don’t know if this will help, but I keep getting the impression you are not doing all you actually could, about the asshole next door who cut down your tree. You talk about worrying he will easily saw down the rest of it, and there’s nothing you can do because he’s rich — but you never mention obvious practical things like taking photos, to prove the tree was there on your property, and then next day, it’s gone, as evidence. When he comes by yelling and pointing at you, why not take his picture? Keep your phone or camera with you — it seems like he’s getting what he wants, which is to frighten you unduly. I understand the insane emotions, but it seems like you’re “allowing” them to overwhelm you every minute, staying in horrible fear, and nurturing that internal state — when there really is no one to come and save you from your feelings — instead of doing some practical things (like a camera) to help yourself and minimize the asshole. If someone cut down my tree, I would also plant more trees.
I often find myself overwhelmed and diving down the rabbit-hole of feelings, but just temporarily (as in 5 min., or 20 min, or off and on for 2 days sometimes) but then I am able to do something to help myself in a practical way, to make some kind of progress. I don’t hear that from you; it sounds like your floundering just continues, and that doesn’t seem good, or useful. But I have said things along these lines before, and you always seem to reject the idea that you can or should change anything yourself, that you do.
Vicki, you’re not going to believe this….but I don’t use cell phones, smart phones, or digital cameras…otherwise I would have taken that picture for sure.
His father came yelling, screaming, and jumping on my porch in 2003…a month before he died of a heart attack, long before the smartphone age
That porch jumping, threatening, and insulting incident was so heinous it still makes me mad 17 years later.
If you knew who it was…if only….I don’t want to go any further
The tree is still intact (or rather it’s dying trunk and limbs) is still intact as of this writing
The man jumped so ferociously hard on my wooden porch that a friend of my cousin had to re-install and paint three or four new boards a few years later because the old ones were weakened/damaged
I do have a good friend who is a retired photographer and it just so happens he is going to be buying a nice new $400-$500 camera at Best Buy or somesuch soon. I’ll have him take pics as soon as I can.
Also, Vicki, if you want I will send you a Google Earth pic of the damage, too. I already have that, at least….But at the time the tree was still alive…..but freshly wounded grievously..I drew an outline of the original shape of the tree before the porch jumping asshole’s son cut the tree.
When that crazed man screamed at me on my porch, jumping so hard and then dying just a few weeks later…Gretchen joked that I was the boy from the Twilight Zone having the ability to “send people to the cornfield”
Please don’t gather any ideas that I truly have such ‘cornfield’ superpowers. The porch incident and date of death, although close, was strictly a coincidence. An incredibly angry man like that already likely had hypertension and high blood pressure. A few days before he died I witnessed him shoveling foot-deep snow at a ferocious clip, a high-risk heart attack activity. He was a hard charging man.
Another way of looking at this is….if I won the lottery tomorrow at 10 million to one odds against me (much smaller odds than any of us dying in the next few weeks), would you automatically assume I have superpowers predicting winning numbers? Most people would rationally agree that I don’t, and the same dispassionate analysis disavowing ‘Twilight Zone cornfield’ powers should be applied to the porch incident, as well.
This still doesn’t mean you should think bad thoughts about me, though.
Don’t be scared. I only point my finger at bad people once in a while.
Guru, here are some random thoughts:
Just hearing of your psycho neighbor cutting down a beautiful 100 years old maple tree makes me want to come over and rip his head off! Yep, I can get that angry! Especially about violence and injury done against innocent nature. It hurts! And what for? Revenge, retaliation, spite? And I agree with Phil, it’s practically a crime to cut down ancient trees.
This reaction is not an old feeling, but it’s obviously fueled by underlying old feelings. Violation against me personally, experienced throughout my childhood. The injustice of it. My helplessness about it. Having to take it without being able to save myself.
Are there any laws against cutting down someone else’s tree, even if only the branches that were overhanging to his side, especially now that the tree is dying? Can you sue him?
By the way, you are not “a babbling idiot” because there is proof that trees communicate with each other via a vast root system and symbiotic fungi. Your second tree is sensing the slow death of your injured tree. Lots of this stuff on YouTube, if you are interested.
Questions: did you say, he cut the tree two years ago? What brought on your current angry reaction? Why now?
A camera, even a fake one, would be a good idea, at least to deter any further actions against your tree (and you). Taking pictures, as Vicki suggested.
Your neighbor sounds really toxic. And I am afraid he won’t change. In fact, I have a feeling that he will use all his power and money to make your life miserable. Because he can. I like your fantasies in which you retaliate against him. That’s soothing to a certain point but then the time comes when you know it’s not going to happen and you have to take a real step to either get yourself away from the situation or take actions against him.
I see loss of childhood. Loss of innocence. Loss of home. Loneliness. Uprooted. I can relate to all these feelings.
I hate seeing what rich people can do in the name of progress, capitalism, personal gain. It makes me sick. Can you make use of this situation? If he really wants your house and land so much, why not sell it and make a profit from it for yourself? Buy a new house in a peaceful environment. Of course, that would mean letting go of your childhood home. And that is painful. I had to do it when my dad died, and it still hurts as we speak! But for peace of mind it might be worth it for you to move on. He will keep making your life hell. Some people actually get pleasure out of making other people’s life hell.
Bernadette, all of your questions are excellent and deserve a response, but we have a major problem here. I need to answer most of them in private so you can clearly understand everything and I don’t have any more defamation risks,
In fact, since my anger has largely subsided for a while I am going to make active efforts to lessen my discussion of this matter on the blog.
If you wish, I will extend the same offer to you as I would Vicki. I know both of you personally (but not really well). Maybe Gretchen or someone else can give you my email or vice versa?
I will answer one question here, though. Yes the cut was made two years ago, but I assumed the arborist was skilled enough to figure a way to cut it so the tree would survive. It became clear in the last few weeks it’s not going to survive, and that realization is what set off my outrage anew.
There were other things being done, albeit more minor, which were also hostile to the tree…but that’s better explained elsewhere.
Guru,
In the picture you sent me, that tree seems to belong to the city where you live, because it’s between the sidewalk and the street. Which means your neighbor damaged a tree in front of your two houses owned by the city, and didn’t do anything to your property.
It seems to me, your neighborhood has changed a lot, and can’t be restored to the wonderful place you remember from your childhood.
The easiest way to get a nice living environment for yourself probably would be to move somewhere else.
Phil
I would feel safer responding via email, Phil. On top of that I am mindful of Otto losing Sophie and perhaps others wanting space, too.
Guru,
I mentioned it here because others are responding without that important information on the location of the tree.
Phil
There is plenty of space for everyone to say whatever they need on the blog SSG. I had to realize this myself recently. Don’t let worry about there not being space for others hold you back.
I feel the same sense of exhaustion in dealing with the predator neighbor as much of the country feels in dealing with Trump and his GOP enablers.
I’m sure there has to be significant common threads of neuroses here, and these people would need the most urgent psychological treatment as they are an active harm to others.
No longer really angry, just scattered spasms of anger and trying to function better.
Mostly just….exhausted.
Guru, the common threads between your neighbor and Trump and his GOP enablers are: sense of entitlement, no conscience, psychopaths, pushing their limits to the max, it’s all about them and profit, aggrandizement, they are always right and you are always wrong, and many more. The problem is, they don’t think they need any psychological treatment, as they think they are just perfect the way they are. There is nothing anybody can say or do to make them change. That’s why the best strategy is to get away from them. If you want to keep your sanity.
No need to answer all my questions above; I posed them to make you think about your situation and maybe find a solution. The new fact that Phil provided, is important on a legal level, but doesn’t have an influence on your childhood feelings, them being the tree and the environment in which you grew up in belonged to you, and having some lovely memories connected with that space and time. It’s hard to let go. I can relate.
I’m glad you have exhausted your anger somewhat – for now. But keep it coming if needed. Take it easy!
Bernadette, the problem here is that you don’t know certain things which Phil knows, and I can’t explain it to you here.
Right now, though, I thought sheer exhaustion would alleviate the outrage running through my veins every time this asshole crosses my mind. Unfortunately, it keeps coming back again and again during the past couple hours.
What a piece of shit. His being a true living legend makes him an exceptional damaging piece of shit.
(correction) His being a true living legend makes him an exceptionally damaging piece of shit alongside it.
“There is no great fortune without a great crime”, as they say.
Each passing day has been a little bit calmer than the previous one now. The stubborn outrage is slowly, grudgingly giving some room for peaceful thought and introspective planning.
12 hours of outrage last Sunday
9.5 hours of debilitating outrage on Monday
8 hours on Tuesday
5 hours on Wednesday
clocking a mere 3.5 hours today
don’t mind me. not trying to intrude. working at home, forgetting about sophie’s death yesterday but of course tidbits hit me every now and then. her death pings on other gruesome deaths i witnessed as a child. death is only gruesome some of the time, but those haunt me to this day.
DON’T READ IF YOU ARE SQUEAMISH–unimaginable terror for sophie as her body gave way yesterday morning. it was not too long in reality (2 minutes or less), but more than the 3 of us could stand. b and i were powerless to help her, b just held her as she went through it. i hope sophie does not hold onto this if there is an afterlife. was it really her that i imagined last night, stumbling around as an oversized ghost in our living room, trying to understand what had happened and where she was now. i hope the crematorium has taken care of her as they said they would; i imagine the worst possible things like her waking up in the freezer or feeling the heat as she was put into the flames. i disregarded what b had told me that a vet told us about a cemetery in calabasas, because i have my own fears of being buried alive. POOR DOG. POOR SOPHIE. i failed her miserably and that cannot be consoled away. maybe i will cry about it at some point, but you know i hate myself for it now.
Death is natural, and not always peaceful. In the wild her death to predators likely would have seemed even more violent and gruesome. Hating yourself is a cop-out that doesn’t honour the pain of what Sophie meant to you and your grief over losing her, Otto
.
I’m sorry you are in such pain, Otto. I’ve been through it too, and it lasts for several days with second-guessing of what else could I have done differently. Our pets share our emotions, are there to be a friend when no one else understands, to accept our affection with welcome. I don’t think you failed her at all. Try to be a little kind to yourself, if you can.
S
Otto, Sophie was lucky to have had such caring humans who stayed with her and held her through the transition into the afterlife. I understand that you hate yourself for not being able to save her, I get it! But in time you will realize that you did everything possible that you could for her. She will always love you for it. Maybe this poem will give you some comfort:
THE RAINBOW BRIDGE POEM
“Just this side of heaven is a place called Rainbow Bridge.
When an animal dies that has been especially close to someone here, that pet goes to Rainbow Bridge. There are meadows and hills for all of our special friends so they can run and play together. There is plenty of food, water and sunshine, and our friends are warm and comfortable.
All the animals who had been ill and old are restored to health and vigor. Those who were hurt or maimed are made whole and strong again, just as we remember them in our dreams of days and times gone by. The animals are happy and content, except for one small thing; they each miss someone very special to them, who had to be left behind.
They all run and play together, but the day comes when one suddenly stops and looks into the distance. His bright eyes are intent. His eager body quivers. Suddenly he begins to run from the group, flying over the green grass, his legs carrying him faster and faster.
You have been spotted, and when you and your special friend finally meet, you cling together in joyous reunion, never to be parted again. The happy kisses rain upon your face; your hands again caress the beloved head, and you look once more into the trusting eyes of your pet, so long gone from your life but never absent from your heart.
Then you cross Rainbow Bridge together….”
— Author unknown
I want to take a moment to thank everyone, especially Bernadette, Phil, Margaret, Gretchen, and Vicki for all your continued emotional support during this trying time for me. I am really grateful for everyone here and I hope Otto catches some relief and solace from it as well.
The world has been such a shitty and dull place without my dad, and being surrounded by such selfishly entitled people continuously sniping away at me wanting my trees and home destabilizes things that much further.
Not the blog’s fault, though, you’ve been extraordinarily generous with your time and attention.
Bernadette, I really wish you knew a few more details about my situation, for your exceptionally perceptive thoughts would be that much better if you knew. I would probably learn a hell of a lot more from you if you knew a few extra items. Just a thought.
I also should thank Sylvia for some private support she lent. She was absolutely right about my dad being a stabilizing influence emotionally because my anger at the neighbors has run wild and unchecked since my sweetly heroic and sacred math prodigy teddy bear of a dad no longer hugs me a few times a week.
You are welcome, Guru. I know the first 2 yrs after my mom passed were the hardest for me. Even though we had a rocky relationship the last several yrs. I still missed her and all the things she did for me and was there for me as I was growing up. It was an unsteady time for me and just paying attention to my own needs of health and emotional stability became very important. I, too had some lifelong “beefs” with a couple of people, but I just decided to forget them, some things are overwhelming and consuming, so I just pushed it aside. I hope too, that you can keep your eye on the prize until you are stronger and some things won’t bother you as much either. Good luck with all your work.
Sylvia, ….and that’s precisely the problem for me at this moment when you said, “I had lifelong ‘beefs’ with a couple of people, but I just decided to forget them, some things are overwhelming and consuming, so I just pushed it aside.”
See? To me that speaks of superpowers I don’t have. I can’t just push this aside. How do you just magically snap your fingers and push overwhelming and consuming things like this aside?
I can only say how i did it. You may have to find a way that works for you. My motivation to stop thinking of and ruminating or rehashing old stuff was because it was destroying my composure and making me feel totally helpless. So, I guess my answer was to not destroy myself and look to better things for myself. How could I be a good person to anyone else I cared about if I was mired in hate. I couldn’t. It’s a no-where spiral that only goes down. I had to consciously not think about it, which proves hard when there is a habit and groove of thought established. But I’m glad I did and rekindled my interest in improving myself, health-wise and emotionally. Some times it’s a matter of re-training, day by day where to put your attention. Hobbies or games or whatever until you push destructive thoughts out of the way. Good luck.
Sylvia, I might have to force myself to read your post over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.
I’m going to have to copy/paste it to notepad for easy access, maybe even write it down on an index card when I am out.
I am constantly assaulted by this.
I can’t stand the sight of this man and how he obliterated my old neighborhood…..one tree at a time.
Guru, I think it would be good to get out of the house and not focus so much on yourself. Go to a park and people watch or go to an animal shelter if there is one nearby and volunteer to walk a dog that is cooped up in a kennel all day. Go online and watch a family plant a garden in their backyard. There are all kinds of distractions you can do. You can help yourself because it’s a rut now that isn’t serving you or bringing you any happiness. There are lots of interests out there to be had, so let yourself search for the little things to enjoy.
“You may have to find a way that works for you. My motivation to stop thinking of and ruminating or rehashing old stuff was because it was destroying my composure and making me feel totally helpless”
Sylvia, I’m still having tremendous struggles trying to forget about these predators. I know it’s my problem (unless, of course, someone benevolent comes along and wants to help) and I have to figure out ways around it.
Your advice is not being ignored, even though it may seem that way since I am still talking about this predatory individual/group.
Larry seems to not like my talking about it anymore, but it wasn’t so long ago he adopted the attitude of “take all the time you need”.
I may just damn well NEED that time!
Anyone can ignore what I write. I have zero problems with that.
In fact, I would PREFER anyone who has a negative opinion of what I am doing here to ignore me altogether.
Your putting words in my mouth guru. Talk all you want. I mostly ignore you except when you bring me into it. Then I give you the decency of my honest reaction.
Sounds like you’re going to drive yourself crazy SSG.
Larry, see those nice huge trees behind that kid? All barren, shadowless asphalt & a little artificial sod now.
https://ibb.co/rvRmnyv
If everyone eternally fumed about the wrongs done to them society would come to a standstill SSG.
Yes Larry, that’s why I am taking advantage of the situation now by complaining endlessly while everything is still running before others start endlessly complaining themselves and slowing society down.
🙂
I’d be interested in seeing how you’d react to this situation where predators have 22 of their privatized acorn lights constantly surrounding you night after night putting you under subtle pressure to move away from your ancestral grounds.
I’d read the writing on the wall and move SSG. I did have to move from my ancestral grounds after all to pursue my own life.
Also keeping in mind they have forcibly removed 4 different well-established neighbors who lived around me on top of the 22 privatized acorn lights around me, just chomping at the bit to make two final lights in my front yard to finish their long-term dream,
Yeah yeah, I doth complain too much, sure sure.
More like a million dollar lawsuit just for the long-term emotional harassment for starters.
sweet, bernadette. i was unkind to my wife when she mentioned the rainbow bridge. i can’t really let myself believe in it, but i guess it is nice to ponder. much better than purgatory or hell. anyway, my cats are nice but they were never as close to me as the dogs, who we took for many walks and other stuff. even while she was sick, sophie was closer to me than the cats. it was really great that i was allowed to stay home since march, sophie was so close to me during this time. what a hole in my life. and all i can think of is the bad health she had the past few months.
larry, thanks for the sentiment. sometimes hating myself is comforting or at least pain-killing.
sylvia, i could not do a thing to help her at all. i was a hysterical jello of crying while she went through her last breaths. we tried to comfort her as well as we could, still, not only was the death bad, but i was already unhappy and depressed for many many years now , so pretty much i expect no return to any joyous days when i was younger. and you really wish that life was fair, but i guess that is just a human construct.
that Rainbow bridge poem really struck a chord in me.
I read it while still in bed this morning and it made me cry some big tears.
M
sitting in my green chair in the living room watching tv. sophie would be waking up at this time, and come out of b’s office and stop by the side of my chair and i would rub her neck for a minute. then probably get ready to take her for her nightly walk…put my wallet and phone and keys into my pocket and she would know, and i would get her leash and harness on her and we would walk onto the porch, down the steps, she might pee in front of the steps , pick her up and put her in the car, back out slowly and drive to the park. most times b would come. that’s gone. i guess we are living by the rules of the universe, the cold hard rocks and the empty cold spaces. i was able to get up, flop in my bed and got a few tears out easily but i stopped myself. i had to stop wailing whatever day it was when i was dragging the deceased dog on her cushion down the hall, telling her that was the last time we would be in the hall together, soon to put her in the car for the drive to the crematorium. i was making too much noise and b was on the phone with a student who heard me. interruptus cryingus. today, i was too weak to call to make sure the crematory actually had done their deed. i dont trust anyone these days.
Sylvia,
I love the advice you gave to Guru.
M
drag drag drag. they just dropped off the box with sophie’s ashes. i just want to scream DRAG DRAG DRAG because b said they brought sophie back, which made it sound like (since i was focused on working) that sophie had been lost and somebody found her and brought her back. but no, just ashes. nowhere to scream, car is in the shop, but i hardly ever scream in car or anywhere else either. screamed or shouted sometimes at the previous primal institute where there were many rooms, especially the room at end of hall next to barry’s office, but as someone mentioned to me at the time, maybe it didn’t sound real to them. whatever. this would be a real scream, whether that matters or not, i don’t know. i can’t even do loud sobbing here. nothing pretty much matters, i am shoving as much food down my throat as i can to kill the pain. this is nothing important to read just had to express it somehow. we throw ashes of 3 dogs and 2 cats into the back yard tomorrow. they all lived here in sf valley since 2008 and i am not going back to tucson to throw ashes since that place was f’d up, except we did get sophie there in 2006, which was not f’d up.
just to say, in that room at pico p.i., by barry’s office, me and chevy buddied sometimes before the s.o.b. got sick and died. i never cried for chevy, i did not get very close to him i guess. i have no idea if the county buried or cremated him or what. sorry chevy, you certainly got the dregs. you thought coming to l.a. after losing your job was going to work out for you, but perhaps it did not.
Those sound muffling rooms at Pico were a great solace from the hustle and bustle of LA, especially when lights were dimmed. Strangely appealing to me and they afforded seemingly limitless introspection. I do remember Barry’s office, too, as it had a good view of the French school’s playground, I think.
Otto,
I have been wondering now and then about Chevy and what happened with him.
we lived in the same house for a while, until he moved out and as I heard shortly after, found shelter with some kind of organization.
did he get ill?
M
From here on out I may preface all my blog entries with, “PLEASE ignore what I am writing if you have any negative feelings towards my constantly posting here. I would PREFER you ignore me in that case. Just pretend I don’t exist and write whatever you want to write here about anything else.”
(PLEASE ignore what I am writing if you have any negative feelings towards my constantly posting here. I would PREFER you ignore me in that case. Just pretend I don’t exist and write whatever you want to write about anything else.)
Larry said. “I’d read the writing on the wall and move SSG. I did have to move from my ancestral grounds after all to pursue my own life.”
Larry, this comment is SO, SO wrong for me on SO many levels I don’t have time to argue with you about it or spend what’s left of my emotional energy tussling with you..
You’re been very unhelpful for me personally. Is there any way you can just ignore my posts using the disclaimer above?
You can write all you want. I don’t interfere, unless you bring me into it. At 4:38 you wrote:”I’d be interested in seeing how you’d react to this situation….”, so I replied, that’s all.
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Larry, OK fair enough..I did specifically ask you what you would do in that situation. So I will offer a mild apology for that, yet I still stand by my thoughts that the things you are saying recently haven’t helped me at all, though. Not at all.
I can appreciate those would be your thoughts. I accept and respect that. What could we say that would help?
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The general rule is to comfort the afflicted, afflict the comfortable.
Guru, No one has said anything negative about you posting. If someone says something that you don’t agree with or don’t want to hear it’s important to recognize that is quite different than a negative comment. They simply see things differently. We can’t control the opinions of others or try to censor the things that don’t fit our view of things. I’m not sure what you feel is so, so wrong about Larry’s comment. Bernadette touched on a similar issue. The pain of letting go of your childhood home. It’s extremely painful and difficult. I do have a question about your situation… maybe just answer as simply as possible. How were your neighbors forced to sell their homes ? G.
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There are MANY things wrong for me personally in how Larry would have approached, I seriously do NOT….do NOT have the energy or wherewithal to go into all that. It’s not worth it.
I do have some plans and ideas on how I can literally DEFEAT the predator’s purpose. No one should be under pressure like this to leave their beloved home, and in my view the people doing the pressuring should be severely punished for such predatory tactics.
The trick in proceeding is, as Sylvia suggested, putting these people out of my mind as much as possible until the day comes I am ready to make my own mark.
Regarding your final comment: There were five houses on the block. Predator has taken over the other three (in addition to the one he started with) and I am the last holdout. I think our family and one other were owners with the other owner simply retiring and selling. The other two were long-time renters, and the predator could have CHOSEN to allow them to stay in their homes instead of forcing them out. Alas that did not happen.
As Jack would say, people are being too pathetically ruled by money & business interests.
He was right about that-, you know, but without tons of bloodshed that game won’t change.
Guru, I also think you should write as much as you want on this. On my part, if I wanted to make some comment on a different subject, I would. So, it’s not bothering me, or getting in the way.
I assume it’s way beyond discussing with your neighbor, your complaints or his pressuring tactics. I find that it’s better when I can finally say things directly to the person who’s bothering me, or who I have issues with, even if it’s repetitive, rather than indirect methods, even if it takes me a long time to do it. Of course, it will best to do it in a way which doesn’t trigger and enrage your neighbor, if at all possible, since that’s likely to make things worse. It’s probably way beyond doing this, I suppose, because of the long history of the problem. And it wouldn’t actually fix the anything, just direct the feelings to the source, which can maybe provide some relief. Also some of this may be stuff being triggered from your past. It’s always good to keep in mind that possibility I think. Phil
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Phil at this point in time it would not be a good idea to confer with him directly, both for my own sanity and a host of other indirectly related reasons. This could change in the future….maybe.
Much of his communication to outsiders is through traditional symbols of American affluence (home remodeling, fancy cars, lamps, lawn maintenance, etc.) Responding with your own symbols of affluence likely has an impact on him.
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The last passage I wrote to Phil about how the predator only seriously responds to trinkets and symbols of wealth leads to the crux of why I am in such a nasty situation. Symbolic wealth lovers tend to prize real estate greatly, and I am sitting atop the ultimate prize for him to make his daddy proud in Heaven if he can grab it.
Guru you said, he “…could have CHOSEN to allow them to stay in their homes instead of forcing them out.” You did not answer the question – How was he able to “force them out”? Did they rent from him? Or do you not know how he accomplished it?
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Explanation is likely a simple one: He bought the houses from current landlord and kicked tenants out when leases expired? I have no idea what their arrangements were, but predator could have chosen to extend leases and let them stay.
All that occurred a long time ago. Like…25 years ago!
Actually I don’t recall Sylvia saying anything about making your mark. Did she ? Sometimes we can be helped by the comments that are not the most comfortable to hear. We have to be willing to look inward however. G.
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No, Sylvia was just commenting on how I can distract the predator from my mind. Setting my own mark comment was my own addition.
As you say, sometimes we can be helped by the comments we are not the most comfortable to hear, but this also means sometimes we are NOT helped by such comments, too.
Hi Guru, I haven’t read all of the above, so I don’t know if someone else has already told you — but you are obsessing your feelings into paralysis — some part of you, however small a part, is choosing to obsess this way. Sylvia’s advice is correct. You need to do other things, leave this asshole shit alone, somehow fight it from absolutely taking over all your good consciousness and whatever awareness remains. You have no sane perspective left! You say you “can’t” let it go — well you have to, second by second and minute by minute. There is no other method. No one is going to save you — that’s just an old feeling it seems like you’re stuck in. Stuck means “Get Yourself Out!” in your case. I don’t assume you should move, but if you can’t fight from inside yourself, out of your endlessly revolving internal miasma, then an external change could be necessary. But that’s up to you. I don’t have any problem with you talking-writing about this stuff, but you are winding yourself up, repeatedly, with no progress.
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Vicki, thanks and yes your comment was on the mark and quite helpful. Realistic, too.
I loved that internal miasma comment.
A small part of me choosing to obsess this way….Yeah I have to grudgingly admit this is going on.
“Better to stick with the devil we know than to face a world filled with unknown possibilities”
So yeah, in that sense the obsessing is like a comforting rail I ride upon, although it’s not really ‘comfortable’ at all.
It’s hard to admit that…yet it’s just the right amount of “discomforting truths needing to be heard”
OK, I think we are reaching some decent breakthroughs.
Great stuff, Vicki, thanks. (No, I’m not saying this sarcastically. Your post is making me realize the obsessing is a comforting devil I cling to…in a small way)
I need to take a small break.
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Vicki squarely hit the nail on the head with her comment, or at least came very close to it. I’m a little confused by her passage “No one is going to save you — that’s just an old feeling it seems like you’re stuck in. Stuck means “Get Yourself Out!” in your case.”
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I’m going to have to particularly home in on what Vicki was saying about my ‘endlessly revolving internal miasma’ (a merry-go-round of thoughts seemingly spinning beyond my control) and when I try to “pull myself out of it” minute-by-minute, second-by-second….I start to realize how dull and mundane my everyday tasks are which leave me feeling completely unimportant, just a listless watery body transferring items from one spot to another all the time having meaning to no one except for a tiny spark of meaning to myself.
There’s a LONG, L-O-N-G. L–O–N–G road ahead filled with mundane, dull, and non-glamorous tasks between now and successfully neutralizing the predator for good. I feel astoundingly discouraged by that.
My philosophy, if it’s of any use, is that taking one manageable small step at a time toward the destination, the tortoise gets steadfastly closer to it.
Guru, after I posted to you yesterday, as I was settling for sleep, I was thinking more about it, as I wondered whether it would even make sense to you, and more occurred to me. I think, in obsessing, you are too much “in your head”, which probably seems obvious, but is often forgotten — I regularly remind myself of that. What I have done about it is to walk. In the beginning I walked laps around my house at night. Several months ago I added 15 min walks in my neighborhood, at first every 3rd day, but now a bit faster and moving toward every two days, and eventually daily and for longer. Sometimes I do it while I’m out grocery shopping, or wherever convenient.
I often hate the walks (although that’s diminishing, with success), I never really “want to”, but I do want to because I know I will feel better about myself, and also just better physically, afterwards. It causes the beginnings of getting out of my head, and so “how I feel” changes, slowly over time it keeps changing. Different feelings and connections happen. It gives me hope that I can change my circumstances, and make improvements in my life. That keeps me going.
I think and hope this process could help you too.
Vicki, I’ve certainly exercised with walks semi-regularity and such, but what made your post from yesterday so captivating was not suggested methods used to suppress anguish caused by the predator. You were so spot on in your actual description of what is going on “winding myself up”, “internal miasma” etc. along with a little bit of philosophy behind it (“no one will save me”, “I’m stuck”, “pull me out”)
It almost seemed like hints of birth trauma as its being described there…though it could be misattributed colloquialisms when I say that, demanding extra caution when such theories are proffered.
When you described the ongoing process well enough as you did, my own ideas can be inspired from what you said in that post.
As I replied yesterday, can you clarify this passage you wrote any? Can it be clarified further in the context of your post? (below)
(I’m a little confused by Vicki’s passage “No one is going to save you — that’s just an old feeling it seems like you’re stuck in. Stuck means “Get Yourself Out!” in your case.”)
Hmm, Guru, you have often mentioned the idea of someone endowing you with a million or more $, so it sounded like a hope, however faint. That might be somewhat subconscious. And I believe whenever someone is winding endlessly, revving up the internal miasma unproductively — except for expressing their fear and angst — it most likely does mean they are stuck in the oldest feelings of their lives, which of course connect to re-enforcing experiences throughout their lives. I think you’re likely to have needed someone to save you in your life in the far past, for one or multiple events which were hopeless (no one was there, or aware of your need) — as that seems to be part of the dynamic in your ever-present miasma and ordeal with your asshole neighbor. The bigger the present mess, the greater the likely connections and importance of the past one. “Stuck” is a feeling, but can forever be acted out, harmfully — so that cycle has to be interrupted and changed, different action taken, somehow, to “Get yourself Out”, to get unstuck.
The suggestion of regular exercise was not simply “methods used to suppress anguish”, although it does drain some miasma-energy. It relieves the load of obsession in your brain, by involving your body more in your life, which is more natural and healthy. I suspect your mind has always borne too much of the burden, as an automatic defense with a long-term contract. I believe that if you can gradually let go of that, you will find yourself moving beyond the obsession, in concert with progression in your life. This continues to be an essential part of my own progress in therapy. I used it many years ago, when I was “stuck”. And I know of numerous other patients over the years who have picked up the practice as well. That was part of Sylvia’s suggestion, too.
This was much closer to what I was asking about, thanks Vicki. Please be aware that, even though I may not find myself in full agreement with all you wrote, you presented me with enough valuable and intriguing morsels from which to formulate my own ideas on how to deal with my situation.
I can’t respond any further in an intelligent manner as I need yours’ and Sylvia’s words to sink in for a while under multiple reviews.
Sadly, a million bucks is not that much money anymore.
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Gretchen contacted me expressing lots of worry over my use of the terms “bloodshed” when I referred to money and “neutralize” when I referred to my predator.
Let’s look at what I wrote:
“As Jack would say, people are being too pathetically ruled by money & business interests.
He was right about that-, you know, but without tons of bloodshed that game won’t change.”
What I meant by this comment is simple: Without societal revolution (and likely an exceptionally violent one given that Americans own 300 million guns), the power of money will never wane or be overtaken by other societal values.
This does NOT mean that I will be involved in any revolution.
I’m not a violent person.
I don’t own any weapons!
And to clear up “neutralize” the predator,…Again, I am saying this in a non-physical way. It’s all mental. Ideally I would hold onto the house and simply move elsewhere. This would “neutralize” the predator and his influence over my daily life and stop tormenting me.
I hope that clears everything up for worried people who might cultivate the wrong ideas. Violence is a waste of time to me. It’s just not in my bones. Although things can piss me off quite badly to where it can affect my well-being, there is no sympathetic nervous system act-out in the works here.
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In fact, I would almost bet that the predator is significantly more violent than I am! After all, I’m not the predator here, remember? All I am doing is screaming in anger at being mistreated.
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Shit, I don’t even LIKE guns. I once fired a neighbor’s .22 pistol when I was around 12 years old and I never fired a gun again. Way too scary for me.
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My dad way the same way. He never owned a gun, either. We were and are a bit too regal and civilized for such activities, you know?
typo: “My dad was the same way.”
An interesting book I read a while back is “The Great Leveller: Violence and the History of Inequality from the Stone Age to the Twenty-First Century”. He shows that throughout history ever since the dawn of agriculture, rising inequality has been an inevitable consequence of organized, settled societies. His premise is that only carnage and disaster, ie. plague, war or revolution, bring a reduction in societal inequality, whereas with peace comes a rise in societal inequality. It makes sense to me. WWI, the Great Depression, and WWII were followed by more society wide equality (eg women got the vote, the Roosevelt administration instituted social reforms to help the less well off), which after some decades eventually started becoming eroded in the peace that has followed since (eg. financial inequality in the US and elsewhere is on the increase, fewer people can afford a home, etc.).
Oops. My comment is a supplement to Guru’s 6:51 am post.
i couldn’t walk because sophie stopped walking very much this year. up until march, when
things got covid-serious, we went to the duck lake and she would walk from the car down to
the sidewalk that ran around the lake and sniff and pee and crap. b and me would be greeted
by the tame goose albert, who was not so much interested in food, but being noticed by
people. we stopped walking there because of too many people with presumed covid. it’s vivid
in my mind, but soon it is going to wash away. years earlier, the 3 dogs, otto the
dachshund, sophie the dachshund, and cody would walk around the entire lake with me. i knew
that someday, i might be walking around the lake by myself, no dogs, and getting the
exercise i needed. yesterday we went to a mostly-deserted park in irvine, (sophie-less) to
meet up with my 38-year old son and his wife who had flown into san diego for some r and r from ohio. no touching and as many feet apart as we could manage. the grass was so dense i could
barely walk, and later they wanted to walk some more. b and they did all the talking and i
could not wait to go home. not a people person, i.why the f am i saying anything at all
now. i can’t bear to look at pix or videos of the dog. how weird this must have felt to 10
month old me, when my mom got pulled away by a polio that was as strong and cruel as
donald trump and his ice cadets. where me now? “he’s gone” greatful dead might say.
our landlord sold the house we were renting, when the kids were just babies. at the time, we were probably some of the worst tenants ever. but we were young and stupid. neighbors did not like our many cats outside so the new landlord said get rid of the cats or move out of your cute little cottage near the beach that he had just bought and take your beautiful children with you. that was around the time i had started doing primal, 85 or 86 or 86, no idea. now old and stupid, cheap rent in the valley, but i am sure i will f that up too. no dog problems though, unless my wailing earlier this week counts.
somebody told me he had gotten throat cancer, but i did not know that until i could no longer find him. he had gotten a temporary place ny santa monica college via county or dpss. i rarely think about chevy. sorry for him, and he went down i guess. he just wanted to live. poor chevy.
I need to write about my dog, “Baby”. At the beginning of the month I was writing about how I miss Baby, and have not been able to see her hardly at all this year, as her mom, a nurse, works about once a week in a Covid unit, and then has to quarantine for 2 weeks. So I only got to visit 4 times this whole year. Last Sunday we finally tried Skyping — it was nice visiting with Erin & Tina, but Baby didn’t really get it. I saw her, and said, “Hi, Baby!” and I know she half-recognized my voice, because she was looking around a bit, even toward the door, but couldn’t find me, so she gave up and walked away. I was glad to at least see her remotely, but sad it was less than what she & I needed.
Unfotunately, Tuesday morning I got a call that Baby had a seizure Monday night (the first one), her whole body shook, she panted heavily, foamed at the mouth, and peed, and afterwards was totally disoriented, wandering around bumping into things, in danger of falling, for hours. Tina put her in a harness, so she could guide her and keep her from hurting herself. Then she had another smaller one Tuesday morning. They thought I should come see her, it might be the end, soon. While on the phone, Baby’s CBD was kicking in more, and she was recovering some normalcy, she ate a little chicken, but then had some weird behavior — she bit the table several times (which we all think is a sign of pain she doesn’t know how to deal with), and shortly later she snapped at her “sister” Mona, which she never had done before.
I had to consider still the unlikely risk of my catching Covid, but I felt I just had to go, so we arranged for early Wed. afternoon. Then on Wednesday morning she seemed better, so they told me not to come, as they made an appt. for her with the vet, to be evaluated for anti-seizure meds.
But maybe an hour later they called back, because Baby had yet another seizure. So I arranged to work the morning, and take the afternoon off. I went Wed. afternoon, wearing two masks and a shield over all, and gloves. They said that Baby was still recovering from her seizure that morning. They got her through the recovery, fed her & took some photos. Baby went out into the back corner of the yard, climbing on top of a low wall of rocks — they had no idea why. But when I arrived she had gone inside, and seemed exhausted, laying in her bed. So I had to go into the house to see her.
I sat on a stool next to her crate-bed for about half an hour, she was not very responsive, at first didn’t seem able to even lift her head. Her eyes were open, but did not move much. I took my gloves off and petted her as best I could. Eventually she was lifting her head a little better, allowing me to reach her and scratch her ears. And whenever her “sister” Mona came over, Baby got a little more active, as I petted Mona. I told Tina that Baby was still trying to fight for her life. Finally Baby did get up, left her crate, went over to Tina in the other room, but shortly came back and got into Mona’s bed, started to open her mouth, and had another seizure. Tina went to her, comforting her, and asked me to call Erin, who hurried in, and they both caressed and stroked Baby throughout her seizure, telling her what a good girl she was, and that she was ok, calming her down, so her panting gradually slowed. I just watched, from behind them, and helped manage Mona’s intrusions.
Afterwards, they helped lift Baby to take her from the crate, and then Baby started walking into corners, so Tina got her out to the living room, where she continued into walls and corners, but looking as if she had no idea why or what was going on, her eyes were unresponsive. At one point she walked up to me, and used my legs like “another wall”. I finally sat down on a chair, and just watched this go on. I asked Erin if they had decided “when”, and she immediately said, “It’s happening tonight, today”. They had made the appt. to have the vet come and “put her to sleep”, that we had discussed on Tuesday, before we thought it would have to be done, we still thought she might recover. Then she asked me if I agreed, and I said, “Yes. She’s not coming back from this.” They looked at me, we all felt the same. Erin had told me earlier that anti-seizure meds are only appropriate for seizures once a month, and it takes some days for the meds to work. So fast, Baby was beyond that. Her level of seizures damages the heart, liver, brain, and what else. There was not much hope that a vet can help more — we knew Baby also had a cancer reoccurance, but no idea if it has simply spread. She had already had two cancer surgeries, we talked about it, and decided, “No more.” It was too hard on her, as she got older.
Then they told me they needed some time alone with Baby before the vet came, so they needed me to leave. We had talked months ago, about me being there to the very end, and they agreed easily, but when it came down to it, the end happening so fast, they couldn’t do it. So I pulled my mask down to kiss Baby’s nose, and hugged her, pulled my mask up, and let myself out the back way. Erin said she would call or write, and I said, “Let me know when she’s gone.” I left at 2:45.
I cried on the way home, but was too full of it, so had to stop at a grocery store, so I could just walk around and do something practical. Then I cried harder the rest of the way home, and after I got home.
(Taking a break here, before I write more). Later Wed. evening Erin wrote me:
“The vet just left. Baby had another seizure at 3:30 that lasted almost 10 minutes. The vet said it was definitely the right time. She was very kind and sweet to Baby. She took her time making sure she was nice and comfy and asleep before giving her the final injection. She looked very relaxed when she passed. ❤️
Baby’s ashes will come back to us in a few weeks. Would you like us to get a little box for you to have some? Let me know and I’ll arrange that. ”
I told Erin, “Yes, I would like some of her ashes. Thank-you.” But she also told me, “Mona was there. She just sat and watched. And when the vet gave the meds she looked at me with real nervous eyes. She must have sensed what was happening. She asleep in Baby’s bed right now. The vet also said Baby was a fighter. She said she was working so hard to get thru her seizure. I’m so glad we had the vet we did. She was just so comforting.”
The next day Erin wrote, “How you doing today? We’re pretty blue over here, Mona included. She’s been sleeping in Babys bed and she sniffs the spot where Baby was put to sleep, wags her tail and lays there. Its sweet and heartbreaking all in one.”
I wrote Erin that it was hard for me that I wasn’t there until the end, my mind was trying to fill in the blanks. So I asked for more details, but was afraid they would find it too intrusive, so I said that.
And Erin responded that she understood my upset, and she was sorry that she “needed that space”. Then she filled me in. “That last seizure was horrible and so long I felt like it was never going to end. She was not able to stand up again or stop panting at that point. Luckily the vet got here a few minutes after it ended and she was able to give her the calming shot immediately. I had spent some time during the day washing babys bed and her favorite blankets to set up for her passing. She was in the bed until right before her last seizure. She stood up and walked a few steps and the seizure started. She was laying on the floor in the dining room. We brought her blankets to her and made her as cozy as possible but we were unable to move her at that point because she was in the disoriented state. We were all around her with masks on. We were petting her and telling her how much we loved her. Mona sat right there with. We did wear masks and the vet stepped away so we could take them off and give her kisses. We sang the theme song to the Golden Girls to her at night when she went to bed so we played the song for her while she received the medication. I hope she could hear it and found it comforting. as well as our love and rubs we were giving her.”
The vet put Baby on a little gurney with “a real cute soft blanket and she tucked baby in. She just looked like she was cozy and sleeping. finally at peace. It is shocking to us too. It was so fast. On one end i’m grateful that she didn’t have to suffer on the other end i’m of course sad that we didn’t get longer. I’m definitely at peace with our decision after those 5 seizures in such a short time.” Then Erin told me how grateful they are for me “staying consistent in Babys life. And for everything you did to help her be comfortable from medications to treats!! We know how much you love her and we know how much she loved you. She was always excited to see you…and remember how when she was a little younger she would watch you leave at the door? Such a sweet girl. And who knew that not only would we get sweet Baby but also find such a good friend in you.”
I also communicated some of the story with people at work and online, which has been helpful, in between my intermittent crying. Baby’s moms called her “Boots” for 4 yrs. I had “Baby” for 3 years. When I rescued her from the street, dumped while still nursing babies, the vet guessed she was about 5. So Baby-Boots was about 12 yrs. old when she peacefully went to sleep forever Wednesday.
The 2nd photo in the link was taken her last day, shortly before I arrived. (Hopefully the link will work, I’ve never tried this before). https://photos.app.goo.gl/WDZyLqBUEqqLDfmWA
Vicki, I’m glad you wrote the full story, I believe it’ll help to come to terms with Boots;/Baby’s ordeal and passing. I’m so sorry for your loss, and how painful for you those last few hours were/are.
I’m so sorry, Vicki. Times like these are so difficult. Your dear Baby sounds like she was a real fighter and she was lucky to have you and her other care-ers. She must have been a sweet heart. Take care and thank you for sharing your feelings about her.
Giving you my condolences for what you’ve gone through recently, Vicki. I realize my messaging to you and Otto lands more as a ‘dull thud’ than the others, as I was never a pet owner.
Guru, thanks. Not a problem that you’ve never had a pet, because you just said it.
Jo, Sylvia, and Margaret, thank-you. Along with the feelings I had during group today, it’s a little progress.
I’m sorry you’re having to go through this, Vicki. I understand your extreme grief, though. At the intersection of Beach & Yorktown in Huntington Beach there is a huge pet cemetery; the grass in the cemetery is barely visible beneath all the flowers and candles covering all the graves of people’s beloved pet buried there. Drive a few blocks north on Beach Blvd. and you arrive at Beach and Talbert, the location of Good Shepherd Cemetery, where only humans are buried. You would be amazed at the lack of flowers and candles on the human graves. Says a lot about how important our pets are to us.
Vicki,
that’s a heartbreaking story…
it is good to hear Baby had love and caring hands around her all the time.
those sound like very nice friends for you as well.
still so sad…
M
Thanks, Margaret, and Yes, I hope we will all remain friends, but I fear that it will fade, without them having enough motivation to make that effort. They are busy and already have plenty of relatives and friends, before ever meeting me. We’ll see.
The hardest thing about being at group today, was that although people appeared affected when I was telling my story about Baby dying, after I left and came back from crying, no one said a word to me about it, so I was left by the end, feeling “no one cared”, that they were just into their own stuff, of course they would be. I didn’t quite know that I needed something from “someone”, until after I got nothing, the group ended, and I felt awful, hurt, and some angry. To be sure, I felt there was little I could or should do about my vague feeling, as I had talked already about Baby, and a number of people had not spoken, and were called on in the limited time before group ended, about half an hour later than I had expected.
And I always feel less important than others, unwanted, somehow bad, frightened of being smacked down — basically “garbage”, “a piece of shit” that should be flushed and gone. I feel that’s how I was treated early in life, and it’s never changed. Over and over, that was my fundamental feeling about myself, it inhabits me in everything I do, and people do pick up on that feeling, so they are not exactly attracted by it, and I usually find myself alone in social situations. I don’t see a solution, except to feel how painful it is.
Vicki, I’m really sorry about your loss of baby, and the pain it’s brought up.
I often leave group with big feelings and when I come back nobody says anything. It’s kind of noticeable to me because when I started primal many years ago I think there was more of a tendency to ask the person if there was more to say about whatever the feelings were. Maybe now it’s left to that person to say more.
Sorry that I didn’t say anything myself.
Phil
Thanks, Phil. I certainly don’t want to “guilt anyone” about it, regardless of how I feel, but it does help me to hear that. What you describe, I kind of remember from many years ago, too. As a child, when I complained (whined?) about anything, I remember my mom & others getting angry or laughing at me, and saying things like, “Oh, poor you!”, “Stop feeling sorry for yourself!”, “Don’t come crying to me!”, and “You can find sympathy in the dictionary.” Enough to make anybody whine.
Hi Vicki, I know that being treated so thoughtlessly throughout your life is at the heart of what you wrote in this post. I wanted to tell you however that I believe it was quite the opposite in group today. Before you arrived for group Otto also spoke of losing Sophie. Then you came and told an equally heartbreaking story. Both of you seemed so fragile and Otto clearly could say no more. I actually wrote a note to Barry that said “ they are both so raw let’s give them some space”. You looked completely drained. I think everyone was extremely moved by what you and Otto had to say, I know I was. So many of us can relate to what you are both going through that some were moved to tears. I just wanted to let you know. Gretch
Thanks, Gretchen. I didn’t know if Otto had talked about Sophie, before I came. I didn’t hurry back after leaving, because I felt too raw & scared. So I took my time, and finally got to the feeling, “I want her back! I want her back!” and knew it was real, and then I got some relief from just knowing what I felt. That connected to my involvement to stay in her life for over 3 years, and the pain of having had to give her away, and feeling I failed to give her the life I wanted to, because I’m too lame to just sell my house and move somewhere that would have been better for her — regardless of the fact that she did end up in a good home where she was happier than I could give her. After that, I still felt unready to return to group, so I ate something first. Thanks for letting me know that people were moved, it counters my “old” beliefs or judgements, that so quickly take over and drag me down.
By the way I would have been happy to stay longer. It had nothing to do with the size of group. It’s too bad I can’t share the notes that Barry and I exchange during group but it would likely be a constant interruption. Still it seems to be the best and only way to communicate during a zoom group. G.
When Barry said there was only another 1/2 hour, I already thought it was running over, as I was used to it ending at 1:30. So I never would have imagined that you would have been happy to stay longer. And I wasn’t clear enough about what I felt and whether I was needing something, to act. I just started to sink as I clicked on “Leave”.
I come to the blog to write about problems and big feelings etc., but I want to mention about good news we got tonight from my youngest son who graduated college this past May in NYC. It was a terrible time to graduate and he didn’t appreciate his last classes becoming totally online. He stayed in the city after finishing up, but found it impossible to find work, until finally he got temporary part time work with the census, which at least paid some bills. This evening he told us he found a good job in his field of environmental science. We are very happy and relieved, as it’s seemed like such a terrible time to be job hunting and I was afraid he’d become very discouraged, but he found this position not long after the census ended. Of course, it all has to work out for him, and there’s always the chance that a new job won’t work out, but I’m thinking it should. He thanked my wife and I for “making him go to college”, although I remembered it as giving him very strong encouragement and pointing out he had no good alternate plan. I just wanted to share this good news with my all friends here. It kind makes any problems I may be having, or complaints, seem trivial. This is the news I’ve been waiting for. Phil
C ngratulations to your son, Phil. Finding the job will likely be life changing for him. Interesting how i t changes perspective for you.
Phil, congrats on your son’s breakthrough and I’d suggest giving the fatherly advice of having him hang onto that job “like gold” for at least 12 months:
Congrats Phil, for the good news. Hopefully it will work out for him, in a happy way. It’s a start.
That’s very rewarding Phil…I’m glad for you and your son..it’s such a difficult time for that generation.
Yes, Phil, congratulations to you and your wife for your son’s accomplishing his educational goal and hope. And also that he hasn’t ended up on a ‘Runaway train.’ No, really, what a happy time for you all.
Thanks Sylvia!
Vicki, When you are in that much pain it’s hard to know what is old and what is happening in the here and now. Anyway do keep all of us posted on how you are doing. There can be so many ups and downs! Talk soon! Gretch
Gretchen, I later was feeling something, and found “I want her back” changed into, “I need her. I need her,” and after awhile it was about my mom. It just didn’t feel Baby was it, anymore — at least for that time, that day. Since then, I still keep having other epiphanies of pain about Baby, like worry that she was really in pain months earlier, but ignoring it or hiding it, as her life declined and she couldn’t go for walks anymore, and I feel bad about not giving her all of my undivided attention when I was there — even though there was little more I could do, except feel bad that she was feeling poorly, and I got almost no chance to even go see her. But I still feel bad about how she must have suffered, She just wasn’t as happy as often as before, regardless that it wasn’t “time for her to go”, yet. I think that will haunt me for awhile. And I think it’s about me, too, small wonder, as I identify with her so much.
Phil, That’s wonderful news! Your son must be thrilled and relieved. I’m sure you must be so excited for him ! 👍🏻 Congrats! Gretch
Phil,
Wow, that is really great news!
I am very happy for all of you,
M
Thanks for all your congratulatory comments everyone.
Phil
good going, phil and your wife…and son too, sounds like son appreciates you two.
Thanks Otto!
how cold it is today, finally summer is leaving. sophie didn’t make it to the cold breezes. i think about her constantly. i am working from home and i would have already taken her for a walk in the dark of the morning. c’est la vie. or as i like to say…f’ this shit.
sorry about baby, vicki. you truly loved that little gem
Thanks, Otto. Sorry I missed when you spoke about Sophie in group Sunday. I just had to sleep until late, from waking in feelings in the night before.
strong cold winds today blowing souls across the universe. i hope sophie will not be alone out there. sorry. dont know if that is from watching too much tv or what. it could be true though. why else did ancient peoples look to the stars for their lost beloveds. just random thoughts, probably my brain trying to keep the rest of me from imploding.
missing sophie and realizing that the rest of my life will consist of mostly losing others in my life. whoopee!
dont you feel the need to read or comment. i am going to have a lot of ptsd in the way sophie died. f’ me, i hope if i put it into words it will help my sanity. she had congestive heart failure. we had to count how many breaths she had per minute, to see if fluid was backing up in her lungs. we could see her heart beating from looking at the outside of her chest. then when she was dying last week, we were feeling for her heartbeat, hoping that she was finally gone and no longer suffering. . that was gruesome. i was powerless to do anything to save her life. i miss just giving her medicine and counting her breaths. we went for a drive yesterday and stopped at the little park near pali high, on the side of the road. we would go to a park on beverly glen and also to santa monica every week for months to get a glimpse of people having fun and b liked to see the ocean as we drove by. we would walk sophie where there would be nobody around jogging maskless near us, spreading their covid drops all over the place. last sunday after group, we stopped at the palisades parklet. i sat on the little bench missing her. she would not walk much but still liked to look at the traffic. tough teats. all i have now is a clay pawprint on her floor cushion. the cats are trying to take possession of the cushion, or maybe missing her. i don’t know if a session would help; i am remembering things as something reminds me of such and such. not crying, just feeling bad.
There might be a support group for people who have lost a pet and are in grief over it. I think it helps to have the support of other people going through and sharing the same experience.
Poem a friend sent me, “from Baby”:
You’re giving me a special gift,
So sorrowfully endowed,
And through these last few cherished days,
Your courage makes me proud.
But really, love is knowing
When your best friend is in pain,
And understanding earthly acts
Will only be in vain.
So looking deep into your eyes,
Beyond, into your soul,
I see in you the magic that will
Once more make me whole.
The strength that you possess
Is why I look to you today
To do this thing that must be done,
For it’s the only way.
That strength is why I’ve followed you,
And chose you as my friend,
And why I’ve loved you all these years…
My partner ’til the end.
Please, understand just what this gift
You’re giving means to me,
It gives me back the strength I’ve lost
And all my dignity.
You take a stand on my behalf,
For that is what friends do.
And know that what you do is right,
For I believe it too.
So one last time, I breathe your scent,
And through your hand I feel,
The courage that’s within you,
To now grant me this appeal.
Cut the leash that holds me here,
Dear friend, and let me run,
Once more a strong and steady dog,
My pain and struggle done.
And don’t despair my passing,
For I won’t be far away,
Forever here, within your heart
And memory I’ll stay.
I’ll be there watching over you,
Your ever faithful friend,
And in your memories I’ll run,
…a young dog once again.
(Authorship uncertain)
Vicki, I am so sorry for your loss. This is truly a heartbreaking story, thanks for sharing, I was sobbing through it. I can’t imagine having to make such a decision, and yet it is the humane thing to do to relieve a pet from its suffering. I know that Baby loves you forever for saving her all those years ago and providing such loving care. The poem is very touching.
Thanks, Bernadette, I would bet that some of what you felt was about that poor cat you cared for. For me, I just have to feel sad every day, as the shock wears off, slowly. I still shake my head in some disbelief that it was only one week ago (tomorrow) that I did see her still alive, but failing in seizures. So fast, no time to prepare myself that she “was going to be gone” soon, when I “expected” her to still be here another year or two. Like Erin wrote me, the holidays are going to be very strange, quite a hole there.
Vicki, yes, you’re right, Kona was on my mind, and then I also remembered my sweet little Casimir, the bunny rabbit I had when I was young and whom I found in his cage one morning, stone cold dead. It was such a shock because their had been no indication that he was sick. And when I showed the pictures of Baby-Boots to Mark – what a sweet face and gentle, loyal eyes! – he burst out in tears because Baby reminded him of his childhood dog that was run over by a car. So we both know how painful it is to lose a pet so suddenly. It is such a helpless feeling and deeply painful, I understand your sorrow. I wish you could have had more time with Baby.
Today would be Jack’s 88th birthday. Happy Birthday, Jack. I hope you are happy wherever you are! Jim planted a tree of life in his garden to mark the occasion. Coincidentally, he also received Jack’s ashes today from the crematorium. He is keeping them in a beautifully handcrafted urn named ‘transcendence’ for a while, until spring or summer and then scatter the ashes under the tree. Jack hated the winter cold but loved the sun, so it is only right that his ashes should be scattered under the sun.
I am having a few quiet and melancholic days. Another friend’s little doggie also went over the Rainbow Bridge on Friday, so very sad. He had little Gigi for almost 20 years! Then on Sunday six years ago my dad died. I am having a real hard time this year remembering. We had some nice moments and grew closer over the year and a half after mom had died. He confided in me, told me stories from his childhood and youth. He talked to me more in those months than through my entire life before, and I felt we finally had some kind of connection. After he was gone, the family had to sell our house, so I lost not only my last parent but also my childhood home. It was my refuge until the very moment, a place where I could go to for a retreat from the harsh world. I don’t think I have fully recovered. Does one ever? There have been just too many deaths in my life over the last ten years. Too many final moments. And it doesn’t seem to stop. I am so humbled at the moment.
Bernadette, many years ago when you posted on the blog before a very long hiatus, I think I remember your showing us a picture of your dad in his garden holding a giant zucchini. Does this ring a bell?
Regarding Jack: I feel as though I really do understand why he wanted to abolish money. All of the structural niceties we see around us in society: the houses, the buildings, the sidewalks, the grocery stores, the movie theatres, the cars, the roads, the computers, the restaurants, the television are all an outgrowth of a pathetic groveling at the feet of the God of Money, which is a figment of governmental central banks’ imagination through the creation of debt.
It’s so pathetic because of the artificially created scarcity urging people to work harder and harder to avoid penury, starvation, or freezing to death.
When I was in 10th grade in high school I realized that we are all groveling at the feet of an abstract mental product of the federal reserve’s imagination (via original debt creation), I was triggered into a bit of a crisis and started drinking alcohol, smoking cigarettes, etc.
My mother was a high-powered finance maven and would have successfully steered me through such a crisis, but alas…
🙂
Larry, and to graphically illustrate how much of an economic and structural impact I was dealing with…Imagine how your life would be different if Arthur Janov was killed when he was an absolute nobody in 1954, the year he was the same chronological age as my mom was?
Guru, I much empathize with how traumatic and detrimental the impact was on your life of losing you Mom at such an early age. No amount of money can give you back what should have been yours by birthright, in my opinion.
Larry, I’m in a rather strange position here because if my mom had survived into old age with her planned career trajectory, I could in that case easily understand legitimate complaints that I was lucky to have been raised in a privileged, affluent household (a reasonably loving one, if not perfectly so) while most others did not, thus no sympathy should be forthcoming since most people had more difficult early lives,.
The overall sentiment of your post is well-meaning, yet the semantics of the common cliche “no amount of money can replace ” and “birthright” can potentially be infected with a bit of raw, biting cynicism, though. I have to learn to trust that you’re not making a insincere platitude to someone whom you might perceive as elevating himself to royalty status (as evidenced by your ‘birthright’ usage). No, you’re probably not thinking this way, so thanks!
You’re welcome. I have some affinity for your experience because I too lost my Mom, though not in such a shocking and complete fashion as you did yours. As soon as I started to get to know you 11 years ago I’ve thought much of how the accident would have altered the course of your life, tapping into my own childhood loss to help me to imagine being in your place, though your loss being more severe and abrupt and therefore harder to recover from in my opinion, especially when there was no one helping you to work through and understand that loss while you grew up.
Larry, well it’s good to know my experiences may have helped facilitate your own therapeutic process. When I visited my mom’s parents as a pre-teen (10-12 years old) I was already asking myself questions such as, “Why is grandma drinking so much? Why does grandpa look so sad all the time? And what’s with all these nice houses and wealthy fixtures around them? How did this nice neighborhood magically appear like this around my grandparents when I had no direct, visceral connection to it?” (These questions are what I was feeling as a child, though the words used now are to convey these questions better as adults)
I was truly befuddled with such questions as a ten year-old because obviously a missing mother would have resolved everything there.
Yes.
Phil, that is really good news! Congratulations and well done indeed!
Otto, I am counting on the ancient people having it right; I think they were naturally more in touch with the spiritual world. After a century of scientific discoveries and inventions, we are being fed “only what can be proven is real” – I don’t believe it. Trust your heart and feel your lovely Sophie in your soul. She is still there somewhere.
Vicki,
that was a very moving poem…
on another note, the Corona numbers here are rising above the level of our first wave in spring…
my gym and condition training class on Friday will be suspended again, and the schooling for the volunteer work at the phone help line is from now on through Zoom.
we had a first virtual class yesterday and it worked well, we were from time to time split up in smaller groups or pairs to practice some conversation exercises, which worked really well.
then back to the group from about 20 etc.
but it is surprisingly demanding more energy than the live meetings.
after a bit over 2 hours of this Zoom training we were all tired, and the next training was supposed to be an entire Saturday.
they will look at the options to make it bearable…
we are getting more and more restrictions again, and the news is depressing and scary .
at times hearing it makes me shed a tear or two, but at night in my dreams I often have deep cries about all that sorrow people are dealing with these days…
i think everyone here must start worrying about the risks to get ill or to have a loved one getting ill…
it is exhausting to live with that continuous idea life might come to an undesired precocious ending, my main worry actually being my cats as they are my responsibility both practically and emotionally.
will start writing some kind of last will soon, just to get things prepared at least a bit so the persons that can help know what I want, or would want.
this situation feels somewhat surreal but it is coming to a point I feel the need to cover my options.
one extra worry less so to say…
a bit of good news, my puking cat does not puke anymore, his limited diet has helped and cured him completely!
i just called the veterinary clinic to pass on the good news and they were delighted to have someone call them to just let the doctor know how well her advice has worked out.
so that was nice!
i fear life over here will get lonelier again for a long while, few contacts and most virtual…
take good care,
me and cats
Margaret, hurray! I am so glad your cat is feeling better! I needed some good news….
This is one less problem for you to worry about. Good for you, Margaret.
So much grief in your lives. I have some idea of how it must feel and I wish for you that the pain of loss eases with time and primalling. As for me, I’ve been through grief…can’t say though that I’m all done yet. A small part of me wishes I could go back to before the losses, to when the people and pets were in my life. That’s not going to happen. All I have is the present, some limited future, and me and what I make of my time left after loss. It often feels scary that it’s only me at the controls, making my way, but I can see what seems to be light ahead of me on the course I’ve taken.
I’ve met a woman who in slowly getting to know I want to know her more. Seems like the feeling is mutual. I’m waking up to how good it feels to be with someone who I feel very safe and natural with, who I’m attracted to, and how it shifts life from achromatic more toward glowing. But I’m kind of sad that she and I are in the autumn of our years, and that much of what once was a part of my life, the people, the pets, my youth, are gone, never to be experienced again. My life keeps getting rearranged. Time keeps moving on, regardless of what happens to me.
Larry, it’s nice to hear that you have found someone you can feel close to and open up to love again! Wonderful! All you ever truly have is the present moment, really. The past is gone and will never return, no need to spend energy on wishing otherwise. The future has not arrived yet and can play out anyway it wants. No need to worry about it, it’s wasted time and effort. Best is to stay in the present moment and enjoy every minute with your new woman! I find that the more I make a conscious effort to be in the present moment, the more I enjoy life. BTW, my grandfather got married for the second time when he was 73 (!) and lived a happy and fulfilled life for another twenty years. There is so much more to experience for you!
Thanks Bernadette. Right now I’m seeing/feeling things from the perspective of how my life thus far has gone by ‘in the blink of an eye’ as the song says. I mean, in my current primals I’m tapping more into the experience of me as a child at the time when the course of the rest of my life was forever fixed (if not for primal therapy) into a spirallling downward, lonely, debilitating trajectory. Then suddenly here I am, that same child but knocking at the door of my 7th decade, contemplating what a lot of time and effort it’s taken to guide my life from that pre-determined tragic course. I’m so glad that the little kid couldn’t foresee the troubles and emotional prison that lay ahead for him, that now with my effort, together he and I are coming to appreciate. We needed to straighten this out a long time ago, like when I was a kid, rather than now after relatively much of my life has gone by. Better late than never, and the healing process has been worth every step along the many thousands it’s taken to get this far. I don’t want to give up on the little guy and leave him there alone in his prison. As an adult my efforts are helping to steer our life more along a trajectory that his should have been on a long, long time ago. I feel like I’m freeing him finally from being stuck there forever in his stark loneliness, and as we wake up together and see and appreciate what we’ve been through, he marvels through me ‘where has the time gone’.
Larry, I understand your inner journey, and after having put so much time and effort into rescuing your inner child, you only deserve the best of happiness for the remainder of your life. I like the image of you freeing the stuck little boy from his loneliness. And the new love that you now are open to receive and cherish again will further heal you.
Thanks Bernadette. I need to say I’m hesitant to call it a new love yet. Sometimes it feels like it probably is, which is what I want it to be, other times it feels only like we are very interested friends and it won’t go further than that because I misunderstood her or understand her better and she isn’t the one…or my defenses are up and making me think that way to keep me from getting any closer. Hard to know what’s real when in that frame of mind near the edge of change in depth of feelings for someone where I could be wrong about her and us and there is potential that I will be massively hurt. As of our phone call last night, I’m feeling with disappointment that she isn’t the one and am reigning in my ardour, re-evaluating my assessment of her and what her feelings for me are. Who knows. Maybe she pressed her pause and re-evaluate button as well. All I know for sure is that during a phone conversation last night my ardour for her vanished and with disappointment but acceptance I feel she isn’t the one. I will be with her this afternoon at an outdoor church function for acknowledging ancient aspects of Halloween. Having a primal between now and then might help clear my intuition but I don’t feel one on the way.
Holy Smoke! Soon after posting that primal feelings welled up that I cried into. I’m hurting and alone. I need to retreat into the memory of a loving family, but there is none. Like he says in the song ‘Stay Out’, I can’t go home. There never was one. I succumb to this awful therapy that does nothing more than take me to the awful truth. I see through all the thread of my life all the problems, the hesitation and holding back, the hurt and aloneness that needed me to be in the bosom of a warm loving family to resolve, but there was no such loving circumstance for me. I cry in acknowledgement of my need for that family love, that this awful therapy has me confront as never having existed. In my primalling mind’s eye I see the little kid who I was having to deal with this. It was too much for him. It froze his little heart from daring to need or feel love, froze him into belief he wasn’t worthy of it. In my primalling mind I feel so sad for him. I can’t leave him there alone with such a tremendous emotional burden. For him I take on the truth he couldn’t acknowledge. I cry the cry he needed to but was way too overwhelming for him to. I cry for him and I cry for me the awful truth that this awful therapy brought me to, that is nevertheless a great relief to finally face (more of), that I didn’t have the love nor anybody to accept my love as a child, that my parents were not who they should have been for me, who I needed with every cell of my little body, for the sake off my healthy emotional growth and future ability to cope with life.
Thanks Bernadette for being interested and caring, for commenting and interacting with us. Your supportive comment helped to draw me out. I hope this little primal I had helps me feel more clear in my intuition about my feelings and enables me to continue testing to discover what is real between us next time I’m with my new lady friend, instead of me just putting up defensive walls and deciding it goes no deeper than this friendship. Of course, the realty is that it’s possible it will go no deeper, that we aren’t after all who each other is looking for.
Good grief! That little primal turned into a life altering one. Thank you Bernadette, primal friends, primal blog, Gretchen and Barry, Primal Therapy, Art Janov for being there so I could salvage my life. You are who I felt had to exist to eventually help me get through my world intact when it was caving in on me 65 years ago. So glad I found you.
The reality of how alone I was when I was 4 is so stark, it piles so much more onto the fear and aloneness I feel now as I try to open my life emotionally and move it forward in search of love, but as an adult I discover I CAN feel the meaning of the awful truth of why so much of my life was devoid of love, and why in it’s place in me was a dark, empty cavern instead of a strong support structure propping me up, except for the miracle that gave me a chance of a couple of decades of meaningful adult life, of being with Noreen.
My lady friend met me at the outdoor church event this afternoon. We were the 2nd and 3rd guest to arrive. There were four others present, who were the organizers of the event. I felt a change in my relationship with her. Thank goodness for the primal I had this morning that enabled me to let down my walls. It was the first time she and I were seen together in public in the community who knows me well and who she is new to. It felt transformative to be seen together with her by people who know me. As she and I hovered near each other while talking to people, and as she and I left together, then sat in my vehicle nearby, talking together for a long time, it seemed to me that from the perspective of the others it would appear that she and I were becoming a couple. It felt like she was becoming my girlfriend. It felt to me that we now share a mutual though unspoken understanding that we are dating and making it publicly known in our community who know me and who are getting to know her. It wouldn’t have happened if not for this therapy.
I expect some of you are sick of hearing from me so I will adopt the Guru tactic of bowing out for a while.
Larry, that’s awesome! Congratulations! Phil
Thanks Phil.
Larry, I am so pleased for you! I was waiting with bated breath to hear about your meeting with your special friend today. I am glad the earlier primaling helped you to be aware of your vulnerability and consciously make the effort to stay open. I meant to encourage you in this aspect because without taking the risk of possibly getting hurt, you can’t get what you want and need. But you know this already for yourself. Now, don’t let us hanging! I am very interested in hearing all about it, the good and the painful. No matter how many times you need to write.
Seems like women are interested in hearing about it. 🙂 Men friends never tell me they’re interested. But thanks Bernadette, I really appreciate your interest and support. I need to balance how much I prefer to keep private, vs how much support I get and how much you all knowing what I’m going through helps me primally when I write here.
Larry, I completely understand 🙂
Finally I will write – thanks to you Larry! How lovely that you are getting to know someone! Really hoping the new world you 2 are uncovering does not feel so limited. Remember @ certain stages in our lives when we were sure it was too late to change or learn new monumental things and yet we did or others did. My mom @ 91 in November would say you are still a kid – in all seriousness. Granted she learned to ski @ 48 , really got into it in her 60’s and 70’s and continued, adding snowshoeing until 85. Unfortunately she was hampered by mobility issues, hip replacement and knee issues but still she walks (with her walker) does yoga and osteo-fit. Pets – if you want a pet why wouldn’t you think you could have one? We are looking after my brother’s dog right now for 3 weeks – which is a nice arrangement in that it reminds me of how good it feels to have a dog here again. Just trying to work on having her staying up later @ night and sleeping in longer in the morning now. Wish me luck 🙂
So sorry for all of you suffering with the deep and heart breaking loss of a dear pet- Bernadette, Otto and Vicki. It is just so hard for so long – when you have loved so much – as Larry says. I still
react when I see our dog Colby’s look-alikes (Australian Kelpie) while out walking or cycling. At times I feel a washed with warm, beautiful memories and smile, and at other times I totally choke up wishing we could have him back. And this is 5 years later.
Glad to read the good news Phil of your son’s new employment! It seems so recently that you were
lamenting what he may do – and here it is he is already pleased with the choices you helped him with and getting to work in his field and make money! Yeah!
And finally – thinking of you Margaret and am so glad your cat is better, and that you are doing all you can to weather the pandemic.
It is definitely hard to not get fatigued by it and all the ramifications!
Leslie, your mother sounds amazing! Astonishing, really, so much power!
I’m sorry about your Colby. Do you think you could have another dog one day?
I would like to echo Leslie’s sorrow in learning about Otto’s, Vicki’s and Bernadette’s recent losses. Right about when I read that here I came across this article which I liked. It reminded me of a great and extraordinary film called Gates of Heaven by the documentarist Errol Morris. Through the story of two pet cemeteries in California the film brings up eternal human questions of grief and what life is, with with some wonderful characters with wonderful monologues sort of asking those questions.
On a not too unrelated point, I saw the videos from Jacks memorial (Gretchen was kind to send me the links). One thing for sure – Jack died a loved man. In a strange way I was wondering what were Jack’s last words. Some people’s last word may be a “Rosebud” of sorts, but I imagined it to be “Mama”. I thought people, especially when closer in age to birth than to death, would have Mama in their minds during their final moments – in accident, in disease or in the battlefield – when they are afraid and feel alone and seek some of the comfort only a Mommy – or in Jacks’ case, “Mammy” – can supply.
As Jack would have said, just my feeling.
Daniel, I have to note that I would like to know if there is a line drawn at a certain species level of multi-celled beings to where anything smaller does not traverse the pearly gates. I remember a highly intelligent militant atheist Primaller once snorting in disgust, “…and the bacteria will go to bacteria heaven, haha, NO!” Needless to say this individual simply believed “we’re mammals and when we die we’ll never know we were alive, your soul dies with your brain”
I am only posting this because, as I explained before, I am a cautious agnostic.
Daniel, I liked the article a lot. I like that in general, we humans have become emotionally more open and attached to pets and show our appreciation by burying them in a special place. I also like the idea that we will one day meet our pets again in the afterlife. And I am about half through watching the documentary Gates of Heaven – very emotional – and I am waiting for the guy from the rendering place to break out in tears any minute. I don’t believe for a minute that anybody can work with dead animals day in and day out and not be emotionally affected by it.
Thank you for saying that Jack died a loved man.
Guru, why stop with beings? What happens to a tree when it ties or cut down? I mean, surely there are trees in heaven. Or at least there should be.
Bernadette, I don’t know about you but I get attached to inanimate objects as well. It’s obviously not the same thing but I found myself strongly reacting to the loss of things I loved.
Daniel…I will concede (as a cautious agnostic) that the leftover energy within all living things could end up in some sort of ‘central intelligence simulacrum repository’ as a data dump to be dissected and acted upon by unknown extra-universal super-entities upon death. Wild theory, I know, but something like this could make a little bit of sense if we are indeed in an advanced civilization’s simulation (eg. Nick Bostrom and Elon Musk).
Guru, I don’t subscribe to beliefs of an afterlife. Sadly. In reality I simply don’t know.
However, I agree with you that science is capable of infinite progress. It is part of its nature as we understand it. By the way, this implies that reality is such that it cannot be understood in a finite process; otherwise science could not be essentially infinite. In other words, reality is unobtrusively and irretrievably mysterious.
Daniel, absolutely! Especially old things that have been handled by someone that is special to me. I have various ordinary objects that were used by my parents on a daily basis, which I kept after they died; it feels as though they are infused with their energy. They have no monetary value but are very important to me. Now, whether or not they will make it over to the afterlife, I am not so sure… then again, we all and everything is made of the same atoms and molecules and sub-atomic particles and loooots of space between, therefore everything is in the same energy…
It’s nice to hear from you Leslie. I hope we see you here more often. And thank you, Leslie and Bernadette, for the words of support.
Guru, how amazing that you would remember that photo of my dad’s! I liked it because he had this wild white hair back then, like Einstein 🙂 He of course was proud of his giant zucchini; he was very proud of his garden and worked in it until his legs wouldn’t carry him anymore, that was about a week or 10 days before he died. On his last gardening day, he deliberately cleaned all the gardening tools and put them into the shed in their specific places; he knew that it was his last time out and there was no way he would have left dirty tools behind.
You speak my language when it comes to money and the totally eff’d up financial, investment, economic system. The concept of having to work for money is incomprehensible to me and actually is utterly insane. Rich people getting richer by the moment and poor people poorer as we speak. Rich people having all the power and can bend the system to their advantage, while poor people get ripped off. The production of shit after shit that is piled up in shit stores, so that people buy more shit that they don’t need and then fill up the landfills with more shit and destroy the environment. (that’s a lot of shits in one sentence, ha!) I agreed with Jack on a certain level, but I never agreed that it is anarchy that would solve the problem, or abolishing money all together, or that doing away with money would solve the neurosis problem. I don’t think it is that easy. But there has to be a better system than what we have right now. That the rich can suppress and exploit the poor and get away with it. That multi billion dollar companies can snap up small companies like that. That money can exploit nature and destroy the environment, just because it has the power to do so. I am getting sick to my stomach just thinking about it!
BTW, I don’t know if I can say more about your situation regarding your house and psycho neighbor, but if you want to give me more details as you mentioned above, write me at swisslady@juno.com and I will return your email. Cheers!
(and I hope this is not getting posted in duplicate!!!)
Bernadette,
–In absolute dollar terms the US has a social safety net equivalent to what Britain had in the 1930’s, yet today the US is TEN TIMES as wealthy as 1930’s Britain. Maintaining an enormously wealthy country comes with great strains and pressures on the underclass as you mentioned in your post. I told Jack that I believe some form of universal basic income and (maybe) single-payer health care are the best routes forward instead of anarchy and abolishing money altogether. Jack was not keen on those ideas, though.
–I’m glad my memory was accurate about your dad’s picture. The story of his hanging up his garden tools for a final time was neatly, if not sadly, poignant. I think I also remember your writing how you were having a lot of trouble connecting with him emotionally back then, but my memory is really rusty there…so I could be mistaken on that. The picture was earlier for me to remember.
–I will send you a mail within a few days. Having trouble catching up to everything and I have to write to Phil, too.
..I re-read my post and should have typed “The picture was *easier* for me to remember.” (have no idea why I typed ‘earlier’)
Guru, a universal basic income has been proven to be highly effective in Finland, where such an experiment was done. It freed up basic energy usually tied up in existential fear and worries, that this energy could be used for creative thoughts and inventions. None of the recipients just bummed out. People were more relaxed, there were less crimes reported, more people actually looked for work and/or educated themselves. Raising minimum wages to livable wages also would be an option. Nobody should have to work several jobs in order to survive. That’s so barbaric! As for health care, there could be a combination. A universal system that provides everyone basic coverage with the option to buy additional coverage; for example, people who have health care through their employer could have additional or supplemental health care. Also rich people could afford to buy additional services. I think everyone should be entitled to health care, no matter their socio economic background. There should not be any penalties for pre-existing conditions.
You remember correctly about my dad; there was not much of an emotional connection. I was too scared of him throughout my childhood in order for an emotional connection to be established. Also, he was not interested enough in me to create a connection. As a result, the feelings I have dealt with in therapy has been fear of men and feeling unimportant and unwanted.
No hurry with your email. I am still emotionally stunned at the moment, especially as I just got the news this afternoon that my niece’s dog Myleen had died in the morning. Another little adorable doggie’s gone over the Rainbow Bridge. Unbelievable! Crazy! Is it ever going to stop?
Last evening I was triggered a little by discovering some papers I considered important were incomplete, having been partially thrown out. I recovered them weeks ago outside in the recycling can, but only yesterday realized I didn’t find them all. My stuff shouldn’t be discarded without my approval, this has been an occasional problem. I don’t contribute to this problem since I hardly throw out anything that has any possible use or value. I think we quickly recovered from this incident, as we were able to fully discuss it. I have spent too much time in the past checking the trash to make sure there’s nothing in there I want, but I doubt this behavior will change. I value not throwing out good things, my wife values cleaning up.
I made a connection on this. My stuff is seen as unimportant, I’m unimportant. I have some memories of my mother messing with my stuff, which was upsetting, even if it was only toys, they were important to me.
Phil
Good that you could discuss it, and that you could make the connection to your childhood.
Once you throw something away you can NEVER retrieve it ever again. No going back. Point of no return. Best to keep one’s options open by saving even minimally important items.
Guru, I’m glad you’re in agreement on this philosophical point.
This would be a terrible philosophy to have for casino gamblers, “Once you throw (money) away, you can NEVER retrieve (money from other means) ever again.”
So as to not jinx myself here, I will qualify my earlier statement as “Once you throw something uniquely identifying away, you can NEVER retrieve it ever again.”
This separates money from the quote since it’s a commodity and/or standardized tool.
Guru, I guess one dollar bill is the same as another, but some things are irreplaceable. Once thrown out they will no longer exist, so I think this is a form existentialism. They don’t go to heaven or anywhere good.
Phil
Theoretically, if it was worth it enough to you, you could go to the city dump and retrieve it, or hire someone to. A phenomenon of Life is the reversal of the flow of entropy, changing the flow from toward randomness and chaos, instead toward order and complexity. Because you are alive, you could upset the natural order of the degradation of inanimate things toward randomness, and restore order by finding and returning the discarded items to your home. If on the other hand you were dead and no one else wanted them, then after being thrown out the items effectively no longer exist or soon won’t, in my opinion. 🙂
Larry, things on their way to the dump or already there are advanced in their journey to entropy; the same journey we’re all on. For a gambler, there’s an extremely small chance such things can be recovered in good shape, and it may or may not be worth the effort.
Just like, hopefully, Donald Trump is very soon on his way to the dust bin of history, His memory will live on in books and memorabilia, but that won’t stop the process.
I have little involvement with struggles against advancing entropy, such as cleaning the house. I was very surprised to learn how orderly Jack was for a proponent of anarchy.
Phil
Jack was orderly because he was likely leading a minimalist lifestyle, which happens to be very appealing to many computer programmers, particularly males.
That makes me think to never go to the dump Phil, and maybe I better clean my condo before it’s entropy gets too advanced as it sounds like it is in your case.
Phil, it is good that you discussed this issue with your wife, and also gotten to the childhood feelings of toys and possessions tied to importance feelings for you. It could be your struggle may be against an equally determined need of your wife and her childhood feelings of needing to clean up and be tidy. Just a thought.
I save a lot of stuff and think hard about if I will need something in the future. I have things just the way I like it for convenience sake. I think about those who have lost everything in the fires and how all that hard work of accumulation has all gone up in smoke. The option of what to save and throw out is gone. I think they all have ptsd from their experiences of loss, and determining whether to rebuild, and the immediate problem of where to stay. From all that I see on the news, finally, I think they are just glad to be alive and safe. It must be a shock for them, at any rate.
Phil, that should have read: ‘your struggle may be “up against” ‘
Phil, some random thoughts, if I may:
First, it would never occur to me to throw out any papers that belong to my husband, even in the name of “cleaning up” – it sounds like a passive aggressive act to me.
On the other hand, it could be the way you present your papers (I don’t know how organized or messy you are) that signals to your wife they are not important. Maybe you are subconsciously trying to create a reaction from her? Maybe it is a cry for help? Maybe you are also passive aggressive by leaving papers around? In other words, if the papers are that important to you, why not keep them in a safe place that clearly signals: these are mine and are important.
What I know about such behavior, (and I am only saying this because I got the impression that it is reoccurring), it is usually not about the papers or the mess, they are only symptoms of a deeper problem, possibly something that you both have not been able to communicate.
Bernadette, To add details to this, it’s not a cry for help on my part. I’m just very slow taking care of things, I let them go. The papers had some importance to me, enough that it made me upset they were thrown out, but I can survive without them. My wife didn’t act passive aggressively in throwing them out either, it’s just how she is, her need to clean up. She can’t relate to how I could take such a long time to act. These papers required my action, but there was no rush. Now I can’t follow through with the data which was on them, it’s gone. She has much less of a tendency to notice her own messes. Which we discussed and I mentioned some of her clutter, which doesn’t bother me, except that she often ignores it to focus on mine; and that annoys me. My clutter is important to clean up, hers isn’t. My old feeling is, I’m not important, to my mother, my things aren’t important to her.
I didn’t have a big old feeling with this, it all stayed in the present. But the cognitive connection to childhood stuff seemed important.
Another part of this is I never would throw my kids things out, and I focused a lot of attention and concern about their interests, activities etc, and their feelings. No doubt partially as a reaction to how I was treated, especially by my mother. I think she was the kind of person who thought kids aren’t important. They can be ignored and their interests and belongings aren’t important. They don’t become real people until they are adults. You can have that attitude m, I think, if you are quite disconnected from your own history as a child, and don’t have any help to recover.
Phil
Phil, it sounds like you are a very caring father. You are able to give your kids what you yourself didn’t get from your mother. Attention, show interest in their activities, acknowledge their feelings, respect their things, etc. I think that is amazing especially as you didn’t get any of it from your mother. I can relate somewhat to your old feelings of not being important, unseen, disrespected, although it was mostly my father that gave me those feelings. I was not important to him nor my activities were worth being noticed. Whenever I remember what I missed out on, I think how easy it would have been, if he only had shared his music with me, or looked at my drawings, or marveled at my singing, or gave me his thoughts on an essay I wrote, or just asked me, how was school today. I got basically nothing from him in that aspect. He left a huge hole in me. My dad’s mother died when he was eight, and it’s pretty obvious that he didn’t get the attention, care, and love that he needed growing up. He was not able to be a good father in that aspect.
It took me a long time to actually stand my ground in the world, I’m still working on it. It is sometimes not easy to pin-point the situation where I, out of habit, step back instead of making the conscious effort of stepping up and sticking up for myself, because I am so used to being overlooked and not taken seriously. But I am learning to take my needs more seriously because how can I expect anybody else to take me seriously, if I don’t. The steps I have taken over the last three years have been very important and very empowering.
Phil, oops, I meant to say: It took me a long time to actually stand my ground in the world – that includes my marriage – and I’m still working on it.
Bernadette, that is great about the important and empowering steps you’ve taken in the last three years for yourself. And that you are better standing your ground in the world, and in your marriage. Good for you. I’m reading what you wrote after just having a big feeling. A new one actually. I’m amazed to find that every memory I have of my mother seems to be important. There’s so few I have, I’m always wanting more, but it’s important for me to look at what I do have, and why. In this one I’m very young, in a baby playpen, and my mother is just across the kitchen, but I want and need so badly, she just leaves me there. I’ve had the memory, but not the painful feelings, up until today.
Phil
Phil, fantastic that you are having deeper and earlier feelings about your mother. My heart breaks reading it: nothing else spells out more the feelings of isolation and being unwanted than a playpen! I hated that thing. I had similar primals, I remember screaming my lungs out and rattling the “cage” with both hands, being so very upset and angry for being trapped, held back, isolated. I relate to your feeling of needing your mom to come and pick you up and take you out of that horrible contraption and simply let you be in the safety of her arms. How could she not understand that?
More memories will come to you, I am sure of it.
FOR CHEVY
Chevy
You were a gentle soul
Who deserved to be treated with gentleness
But you got tough love in your childhood
And more tough love in your therapy
Misguided tough love
“For your own good” tough love
It didn’t make you stronger
It didn’t make you healthier
It ended up making you sick
It ended up killing you
Know that you are not alone
There
But for the grace of god
Go I
This song is for you:
RIP Chevy 😢
For a while now I’ve noticed your absence Renee, at least since Jack’s death, and have been wondering where you’ve been.
Larry, I’ve been where I’ve always been. Just haven’t felt like writing since Jack’s death.
just to add my own bit of reality, as I lived with Chevy as a roommate , I feel sorry for him he did not make it, and sorry life damaged him so badly, but he was not an angel of gentleness really.
M
Margaret, thank you for sharing your bit of reality. It helps me quite a bit.
Boy, I didn’t see this one coming! I had to force myself this morning to do my daily yoga, my spine was aching and my brain was cloudy but as I knew I would feel better afterwards, I went ahead anyway. When I got to the end of the routine, I realized that I had forgotten to do the balancing poses. I instantly thought, That’s because I wanted to avoid feeling unbalanced. So I went ahead and did the balancing poses, and naturally having problems with one side, I said to myself, See, I knew I am out of balance! My body is unbalanced! In fact, my entire life is out of balance! And so it went: as I lay down for the final relaxation (which we do at the end of the yoga routine) my tears started flowing.
I remembered how painful it was that my dad didn’t pay any attention to me. That he had no interest in what I was doing, thinking or feeling. Crying got worse as I’m remembering how the other kids (and adults) in the village adored my father and would tell me what a good music teacher he was, and what a good listener he was, and how good he was to have a conversation with! What??? I never got any of that. He never had a conversation with me, he never showed any interest in me! I am crying so hard at this. Then the painful twist to it all: I had to pretend that I was okay, that I had the great dad that they all believed him to be. I had to play strong when I felt weak – lacking and unbalanced – inside.
At home, my dad was either mentally and emotionally absent or an angry bully that could fly into a rage at the slightest provocation. Take your pick. I was walking on egg shells around him, careful not to provoke one of his outbursts.
Another twist: I knew as a 5-year old girl that my dad was sad and melancholic, I noticed it one day and asked my mom; she confirmed that my dad had lost his mother as a little eight year old boy and that’s why he is always sad. What a fuck up that was! Because I then took on the role of taking care of daddy and pretending that I didn’t need anything from him and that I was strong. What a brain fuck! that brought on another bout of crying.
I cried more remembering high school when I was so scared of all the male teachers, especially math and science teachers because I had been conditioned to believe men to be bullies (which most of the teachers were anyway!). I was fascinated with anatomical charts at the time and the natural sciences but because of the fear and my misogynistic father, there was no way I could have pursued this field. My dad decided I had to take an apprenticeship as a secretary at the local factory but I refused and stood my ground. No effing way!! With the help of my high school teachers who convinced my dad, I was then able to study and become a kindergarten teacher. At least that. I cried today really hard about this because I know without all the hardship I could have done even better. I did my best, I cried, with all the opposition and all the fear I grew up with, I did my best!
There was more, I cried really long and really deeply remembering my non-existing relationship with my dad and the impact it had on my life.
Another result of my twisted upbringing is that in my later life I would fall prey to manipulations and unhealthy influences by people who would take advantage of my gullibility or lack of discernment. As I was conditioned to pretend that everything is okay and I can handle it as I am a strong girl (ha!), that was an easy game for the culprit, and I was a lost cause. To this day, I have to be very careful not to trust the wrong people. I have learned that best is to stay away from them.
Then I cried in gratitude. Thanks to the conversations I have been having here on the blog with you guys – thank you guys! – I was able to connect to these feelings. Larry inspired me to journey back to the little girl inside and rescue her. Guru remembered my dad’s picture and was interested in knowing more about my relationship with him. The exchange with Phil reminded me of how painful it was to be unwanted and not getting any sign of interest and compassion. And Daniel asked me a simple question – a little kindness can go a long way!
My work is to get more balance into my life now. And I am not even sure what that means on a practical level (except in yoga, ha!). I just keep feeling what I need to feel, writing what I need to write, and getting angry at the twisted and unbalanced way I was brought up with. Something will shift physically, mentally and emotionally. I have faith.
And a special thank you goes to Gretchen, who with her impeccable instinct and sharp mind is always there to pull me back from the abyss, confirm my reality when my brain is getting clouded and twisted. Thank you very much indeed!
My feedback is going to come across as trite and unimaginative, but I’m glad you spent some time sharing all this about your dad, thanks Bernadette. Keep writing all you want and make this blog your second home. I once told Mark I had to walk on eggshells (exact same phrase you used) around my dad sometimes, too, but when I looked back on the totality of his life from a grander perspective I found myself easily forgiving him for absolutely everything on an emotional level. I miss dad’s sacred teddy bear presence every day.
Guru, your feedback is neither trite nor unimaginative. All that you express here is additional food for thought for me and is very much appreciated. While the walking on egg shells might not have been the worst, nor the beatings, nor his violent outbursts, it was the sheer neglect that caused more long term damage in me. I don’t have a memory of “dad’s sacred teddy bear presence” like you have. Hold on to that, Guru, that is very precious! In spite of it all, I can forgive my dad. I believe he, too did the best he could.
Thank you for sharing as you have Bernadette. It takes a lot to go there, write about it and to acknowledge how you are getting there. I relate to so much of what you are saying with my dad – especially that great person who was out there in the community helping others, while our day to day home life was not a priority. All so sad.
Leslie, I didn’t know this about you and I’m sorry you had to experience similar circumstances. It’s like reversed Jekyll & Hyde in my dad’s case: gregarious charisma in public & taciturn monster at home. Poor daddy! Thanks for sharing.
Thank you for sharing your experience Bernadette. When you do that you help me to see/feel my dark places where I need to go.
Larry, and you help me the same way when you share your internal journeys and face your demons with great courage and determination!
Bernadette and Phil, I’m glad you’re having those big, healing cries. That you are writing about it here makes the blog feel more precious to me.
I felt unusually distant in Zoom primal group today. Everyone was struggling with accessing and understanding the effect on their lives of the deep, austere feelings of abandonment and aloneness that all of us in therapy carry. In contrast for a change I was feeling happy, but didn’t feel comfortable sharing that in light of everyone else’s misery. I decided it would be important for me to talk but I was becoming more and more afraid to as time went by. I decided I would talk at the end of group after everyone else had their say. I hadn’t appreciated that it was already near the end of group when Gretchen asked “Larry do you want to say anything?”
So I told everyone that my feeling has changed about what the relationship with my lady friend is, that now she feels like my girlfriend and that we are dating and it seems to me she feels the same way, even though we’ve not outwardly said as much in words. That we are dating just feels obvious in how we talk to and treat each other, in public among people we know or when alone together. The shift happened on Saturday as I described in my Oct 31 afternoon comment.
I’m happy but scared. I’m afraid this won’t last, that I’ll ruin it. Every time after I spend some time with her, I’m happy but then distressing feelings bubble up that make me wall up and want to distance myself from her and not see her for a while. After group was over today, I was surprised that I needed to cry after telling everyone I was dating. I feel so alone in embarking on this relationship with her. I started crying for my parents, who are dead. I want to see them. I want them to be happy for me. I cried that had I never brought a girlfriend home to meet my parents. I never even had a girlfriend until after I began primal therapy when I was 30. I cried because the reason I didn’t bring a girlfriend home for my parents to meet is because I didn’t feel like I had a relationship with them, i didn’t feel like I belonged with them, so how could I bring a girlfriend to that or even have a relationship with one. There was just too much hurt in me, too much self-doubt and broken self-esteem, to manage any feelings that go into a relationship. I bawled a lot this afternoon. I had some of the cry I should have had back then, when there should have been someone to help me, someone to help me feel safe enough to see the truth and bawl my eyes out with the pain of knowing I didn’t and never would have loving parents.
With more crying out of the way from more truth accepted that is being stirred by being with her, my walls are down and I look forward to being with her at the next opportunity. The prospect is a bit scary though, always a bit scary. But as soon as I’m with her, I feel at ease and complete like I’ve never been.
Hi Larry, It sounds great, and I don’t think you’ll ruin it. I guess there’s always going to be mixed feelings about new relationships, (and even long standing ones), and it’s understandable old feelings will be triggered, but you are working with them to help with the new relationship process.
I hope you’ll keep writing. I’ve been very busy looking for a car my son needs for his new job. The one he has is just too old, and has too many miles on it. Also, we’re very on edge about election day tomorrow, although we already voted. Amazing long lines for that, people are very activated. Phil
Thanks for the encouragement Phil. I appreciate it. If I wasn’t for being able to work through old feelings day by day right now, this new relationship wouldn’t be happening. It can feel confusing trying to convince my self this is real and trying not to listen to my child hood where I learned that something like this never happens to me and twists every awkward incident with her into proof that I have her all wrong and nothing good will come of this.
Yeah Larry! Such good news! Be generous with yourself and her in every way and
Enjoy.
Um – that was me Leslie – when my brother’s dog – whom we are dog sitting – jumped up into my lap as I was changing the name. Boom – posted.
And now for her late aft. walk!
Thanks Lesllie. It is a roller coaster.of feelings, day to day. Just realizing and admitting to myself and my friends that yes we have reached the stage where I feel she isn’t my friend, she is my girlfriend and we are dating, and it seems to me that the feeling is mutual, though unspoken, just only judging by how we are behaving with each other. 12 hours later I’m primalling from the deepest, darkest pit I ever have yet. If I wasn’t able to do that, almost every second day, the relationship with her would skid to a stop pretty quick. My childhood pain would not let me get closer, would need me to stay away from her and be alone so I could have peace, would convince me that what is happening between us isn’t real and would find reason to cause me to end it.
Larry, I am happy to hear the friendship with your lady has developed into a relationship. Larry’s got a girlfriend! Yay! I have read your other comments and I understand that you are scared to open up and trust again, and yet, you are doing it! That takes a lot of guts, Larry, and good for you! I seriously doubt that you would pick someone who could turn out wrong for you. You have such great intuition and you follow your heart. Can’t go wrong with that. You deserve all the love and closeness that you missed out on in childhood. Keep us posted…
I could not bring myself to participate in group today. I was able to cry some tears while listening to familiar voices in group and some music and thinking of my dead dog. So depressed; tears won’t help. Speaking up might helped but I feel like everyone on this astral plain must hate me so it is hard to say anything in group or this blog either. My reaction is to stay out of sight. Obviously linked to my mom’s death when I was passed to people who probably did not care much for my crying. My mom’s absence which is intruding into sophie’s absence to make things feel even worse. that’s all folks, just needed to say something.
Ya I thought you were in group, then you weren’t.
Otto, what you wrote about your mom, related to sophie, is clear. I keep having feelings about Baby, every day at any time and in the middle of the night, related to so many other things in my life. I guess I did not expect it would just go on and on like this.
Otto, I see you are suffering. Your pain of losing Sophie and losing your mom come from the same hurt place in you. I want to encourage you to keep writing here on the blog. Don’t hide away and don’t beat yourself up. You have done nothing wrong. You deserve love and care and support and understanding and compassion.
“You Are No Longer My Mother”
A divided America will struggle to heal after Trump era:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-trump-families/you-are-no-longer-my-mother-a-divided-america-will-struggle-to-heal-after-trump-era-idUSKBN27I16E
Guru, interesting article! I agree that when people are dealing with visceral issues such as “separating immigrant children from parents” (so cruel!) or “groping women” (misogynistic pig!) and daily lies and cover-ups, it goes deeper than an opinion or rational thought and people are unwilling to compromise.
You probably will hate me for this, but I actually think someone like Trump was necessary to smash some norms, because not all norms in America have been that great. It needed someone without a conscience and moral values, someone rough and heartless to shake up the status quo. That doesn’t make me a supporter, but it makes me someone who believes that we can do even better as a nation than what we had before. I hope that, going forward, we can start building up a better place for all of us. For that part, we need a kind and gentle soul like Biden (although not my first choice) and the power, brains, and integrity of Harris.
And kudos to “Gayle McCormick, 77, who separated from her husband William, 81, after he voted for Trump in 2016” for having the courage to do so at her age! That’s personal power 🙂
Keeping fingers crossed….
Another day with brain fog making every chore I am touching monumental. Can’t focus. Scatter-brained. Absent minded. A slight headache. Many stupid mistakes on Duolingo! And knowing that all these are symptoms of my currently twisted brain. What’s bothering me??
I had more thoughts: with all the pretending I had to do as a child, that I had a good dad and all is A-OK at home, what made it worse – maybe – or at least compounded the problem was that mom was playing along with the charade. She was deeply ashamed of what was going on behind closed doors. But I knew already as a child that she was suffering on the quiet. I couldn’t get any reality from her and she couldn’t protect me, but at least her suffering was genuine.
How does a child grow up around this kind of pretense, cover-ups, and flat-out lies and develop a healthy brain and mind? She doesn’t.
One good thing that came out of this: I am hypersensitive to bullshit. I can read between the lines. My intuition is actually razor sharp. It’s just that my twisted mind turns on when certain conditions occur and then I doubt myself and my intuition. And that’s when foggy brain happens.
But I am ready to figure this out now, once and for all! Primals here I come!
Hey Bernadette, Thank you so much for your sweet comment above. In fact all of your feedback on the blog has been very clear and grounded in reality. I do understand the feelings you have been working through here and I’m just so glad you are able and brave enough to do that. I hope you will always trust your feelings as they are rarely wrong ! Talk soon! Gretch
Gretchen, thanks so much for your feedback and support! It is much appreciated 🙂
Leslie and Barry, I’m always glad to see you on the blog. I miss you guys ! It’s been to long with this virus ! 😦 Gretch
Vicki and Otto, No words but you are right, it goes on. It will get better in time but until then it is just so painful. Please be sure to reach out for support when you need it. Gretch
Larry, 💕 G.
On my lunch-break today, I felt my misery, part of which was not knowing its origin, and feeling that “I haven’t done anything wrong”, so I don’t know why I feel so bad. Thinking about Baby and how she was, with me, (like licking my face while greeting me), I started crying, and the feeling became that she was kinder to me than my mother was. My dog was naturally kinder, and mothered me more emotionally. It’s true that I was her mom in some ways, but she was a dog-mom several times over, a mother, and emotionally, I felt like a puppy with her. In my feelings about her, I feel like I’m on that level, and that’s where I am in identifying with her.
The way she herded her moms, Erin & Tina, and her sister, Mona, to bed every night without fail (except her last night, when her whole body was failing), tells me she saw them as her family of puppies. She made them go toward the bedroom first, and then she followed, checking every room on the way, to make sure all was safe.
I miss her.
That is touching Vicki, how Baby was mothering to you. I can see where you’d have a lot of feelings connected with her for sure. Please keep writing about them here.
Everything fell into place in our schedules so that my special lady friend and I will be able to have a walk together tomorrow afternoon that we’ve been hoping for. We’ll hike for a few hours in a popular nature conservation area along the river not far outside of the city. The details fell into place after she emailed me this evening to confirm that yes her afternoon tomorrow will be free to go on the walk, that we had been talking about since Saturday. Wednesday and Thursday will be the last days of 60 F daytime weather before major snowfall over the weekend follow by an abrupt shit to 40 degrees colder during the day.
I should be happy. Probably somewhere deep inside I am. But all of today I’ve been morose. How could she be so looking forward to being with me? She must have a wrong or incomplete impression of me because she only sees me when I’m at my best, when I’m with her after a recent primal. She doesn’t know how dark and empty my insides turn after I leave her. She doesn’t know how listless I become, how heavy, lonely and despondent I feel about my life when I’m away from her. I wouldn’t want her to see me like this. She doesn’t know, would probably be appalled by how I primal my guts out every time before I see her.
I hope a primal clears my head tomorrow morning, or I will be a withdrawn, miserable person to be with when I see her tomorrow, but then maybe she will get to see the real me. At times like this, I can’t see how anything lasting and good will come from our getting to know each other.
But when I’m with her, I dare to believe that a wonderful turn in my life can really happen. It’s just that such a turn is such an extremely rare event in my life that t feels like an impossibility. I believe that’s what I struggle with, and where my primals go to for understanding and painful resolution prior to every step I go forward with her. Wanting to be with her drags me through the pain that would hold me back.
Aside from enjoying being with her and wondering in disbelief ..how long can this last…it can’t be happening to me, another aspect of why she rattles me to my primal core is that she is a good mother. I know it from our occasional conversations about children and child rearing, and her thoughtfulness and concern for her adult son whose marriage is breaking up and how she wants to be there for him as a grounding, loving presence during this emotionally turbulent time for him while at the same time knowing she can’t live his life for him and hopes he is able to find his way through his crisis.
So yes, after a restless night of poor sleep, this morning I cried into my void again, engulfing me because I will be seeing her this afternoon. I rejoined again with 2 year old me, crouched into a ball feeling my 2 year old need and hurt, crying Mommy Daddy Where are you I need you Why did you leave me. While in the feeling I realize that this is too much for the 2 year old me to face, so at some point as a 2 year old I blocked them out and decided they weren’t my parents. My emotional needs shifted to the people who I was living and growing up with, my aunt, uncle, and two cousins. For one and a half years they, not my parents, were my caregivers who met my needs emotionally and physically, became my memories and experiences for the rest of my life imprinted in the basal neural structure of my developing brain.
The relationship between my lady friend and her son is a clear, living example to me of what a good parent is. When I’m with her my consciousness is struck with how there isn’t any in mine. All I have, as a poor substitute, is a lifetime of therapy to help me accept and live with the void. While crouched down there on my hands and knees this morning, crying and facing that awful, eternal void, I thought to myself….I would never want to dip into this ever, if not for wanting to be with her.
hi all,
sorry I did not participate much lately, I have had to deal with a whole range of problems taking up my energy.
they are dealt with but other stuff already takes their place.
in the first Corona wave in spring, my brother started complaining about how difficult it was to drive up to my place to pick me up for a visit to mom, after he had done so for the last 20 years…
it hurt, and he dropped his suggestions of me moving to a service flat in her residence after several refusals and explanations of me, which also hurt me….
now, in the middle of our present lockdown, he brought up the issue of the boxes of cat litter he himself proposed to bring in from the Netherlands for me, as he buys them more cheap there.
also it was nice of him to do so, and of course i paid for them, but it was specially reassuring as here in the local supermarket they often don’t have the brand I need, fine litter that runs through the holes of the litter scoop unless some poo or pee makes it clog up.
as I don’t see enough, other litter that is made out of thicker lumps gives me no clue what to keep or to discard from the litter box.
I have told him that repeatedly, but now he came up with ‘why don’t you buy the litter at your local store?’
I told him again and he suggested I asked the once a week household help who does my shopping, to look for litter.
she found one bag of the litter I use this time.
my brother kept texting me asking me about it, and ended up telling me to keep asking her to get it, as it was much easier for him.
i told him it had been his own suggestion to bring me the better and cheaper litter . after all he needs to buy it for his own cat. but anyway, bottom line is it hurt me, as it always felt he liked to do it, as it was his own suggestion.
he often brings some portions of self prepared meals for me as well, but this time I noticed it had been prepared meals from the store, so I texted him that that was not necessary to do either, as dI can buy meals here as well, and added of course nice things he had prepared would always be welcome, adding a smiley.
all of this might sound trivial, but it hurts and is frustrating.
why in the middle of our lockdown adding another problem of his own making on my plate?
it only makes me feel more unsafe and makes me feel pushed away or something like that.
i suspect his girlfriend probably is behind some of this, but after all he is the one addressing me.
my half-sister was indignified when she heard about the first beginnings of this all, and offered to let her husband drive to pet shops for litter for me, but well, they already did that for a big bag of special cat food and I don’t feel like making the litter also their regular chore.
also I don’t want to stir up friction between her and him.
the next time I need that special cat food I will ask them to add some litter as then it is only one drive for both things at a time for the husband.
i feel so let down by my brother, partly by what he said and partly by the way he handled it, not giving me any specific reason why suddenly now his regular help feels like too much of a burden.
so well, all I could come up with was writing about it here…
M
Hi, Margaret. I can sympathize with you about having a brother helping you out and what they are able and willing to do. I find I am more dependent on my brother during this pandemic. I don’t want to get out and shop with this virus about and he does not seem to mind it, so I ask him to get my groceries too when he goes out of town to the bigger stores for his, where it is cheaper. I’m able to purchase staples online, (split pea, lentils and canned goods, cat food) so I feel some independence there and don’t have to ask him as often to shop except for fresh veggies and fruit.
I know I’ve had feelings about not being a priority in my brother’s life many times, as he has a wife and step-children nearby, but fortunately he has come through several times when it counted with help for my mom when she was here, and help for me when I needed it with doctor appointments and emergencies. Still the feeling that I’m forgotten sometimes always leads back to old feelings for me. Somehow, afterwards, though, I am a little stronger for the hurt felt, usually.
I do ask about his life a lot, what projects he is doing on his house, how are his step-kids and grandkids doing. I am truly curious, something I don’t think a few short years ago I was without the benefits of primals clearing my head and finding room for caring. If I don’t see him for a couple of weeks, I phone him and we always chat a while. We talk about our growing up and how odd and controlling our mom was, besides what is going on in our day-to-day life.
So, anyway, I hope you have luck with your brother and finding a good source of special kitty food and cat litter. He sounds like he is under stress (maybe financial?) from all the virus chaos too, according to when he started questioning about an alternative source for litter. You are good at drawing people out, Margaret, maybe you can be a safety valve outlet for what else is bothering him, if you can get him to talk with you about it. Good luck, buena suerte, as they say in espanol. Take it easy and take care. Hi to your kitties.
S
Margaret, one thing I’d suggest, if you haven’t done it – you don’t say – is to ask him why?, has it become a problem for him? does it cost too much somehow?, is he well himself?, is there some worry on his mind?, etc. But of course it’s harder to ask such questions, amidst your own hurt and anger, I understand that, too.
of course, in the meantime I am eagerly following the election news which is here all over all the media.
it is scary Trump fans tried to get into one of the voting offices where counting still continues, in an attempt to stop it.
we all hold our breath and I keep my fingers crossed for Biden, who is now very ‘presidential’ in his speeches, which is very good to hear.
M
dear Sylvia,
thanks for your reply!
it sure seems to be complicated with older brothers, doesn’t it?
the thing is it gets confusing, it is hard to know what I really feel, hurt, offended, indignation, anger?
the thing is sometimes the tone of his voice seems to say ‘why do I need to worry or take care of you, why don’t you take care of yourself?’, while it is actually about things he started doing for me spontaneously as offers he really wanted to do, like bringing good cat litter over from where he lives because he finds it better and cheaper.
i never asked for it, but sure appreciated it a lot, and always paid for it, to which he also reacts kind of awkwardly as not being sure whether to accept me paying or not, weird really.
it would not feel hurtful if he would simply tell me at the moment it is too much on his plate for him, what hurts is he brings it in a way it comes across as a criticism to me, a demand or need I never actually expressed at all.
as you say, it crossed my mind as well, I might function as a safety valve for his frustrations, a lightning rod, but that is not a fun task at all, specially as it is not acknowledged or talked about.
i feel glad at least I retaliated a bit without really struggling or arguing, by letting him know the purchased meals were not necessary either as I can buy plenty of those over here myself.
i did not add that in that case they are more likely to be some food I really like eating, and no greasy meatballs which give me a migraine….
Sigh, it sounds you and your brother have a nice communication going on, sometimes i feel I show more interest in my brothers life than the other way around, and tend to talk too much to fill up the void, but lately I found out that me remaining more silent during (for me) long times, finally ends up making him ask me something, like one thing for example during the 25 minutes drive to our mom.
maybe Corona is getting on his nerves as well, in combination with his bossy wife-girlfriend. they are together for decades, so I am not sure how to refer to her.
so I learn to stand my ground without struggling too much, but it does hurt anyway at times…
M ps I said hola gatitos to my cats from you!
Vicki,
those are good suggestions.
but as he tends me to surprise me with this kind of stuff, like as an aside during a phone conversation, or by text message, it seems too late afterwards to talk about it in this way so far.
I did text him back that it was his suggestion to do this to begin with, and that it is no obligation, and it feels also I can’t say much about it as it was a spontaneous offer of him to start with, so he has all right to end it when it gets too difficult for him.
when I let him know I would rely on my local help to deal with it, he wrote back that is much easier for him and added a smiling Emoji.
as I told Sylvia, it is the way he goes about it, that hurts.
i even feel that if I would try to explain that he would resent me doing so in some way or another.
the safety valve theory seems to make sense, he has a very bossy sharp tongued partner, so I might be the only one he can try to control or criticize or whatever.
if only he would be more communicative, that would make a world of difference.
now I am bracing myself a lot of the time against unspoken criticism, that sometimes might not even exist, and sometimes exists when I am not aware of it at all at first…
I hope for you things in that area have improved, but I don’t count on it. you have definitely given it your best shot which is all we can do isn’t it, and then feel the hurt when we have to…
hope to hear you in next group, M
Thanks, Bernadette, Hallelujah!!!
Thanks for that Bernadette… what a relief for Americans, and the world.
Of course I’m relieved that Trump lost the presidency, but I’m troubled that the race was so close, that after 4 years of Trump’s dangerously incompetent leadership almost half of the voters still wanted him in. A new documentary on Netflix, “Capital in the 21st Century” for me convincingly explains how a rise in financial inequality leads eventually to growing discontent, mistrust of the elites, and eventually revolution. After watching it, I have better understanding and empathy for at least some of Trump’s supporters. I feel that Biden’s presidency might effectively be a pause to try to turn things around for the betterment of all, like Obama’s was, but worse trouble lays in store in the coming decades unless mayor changes are put in place to reduce financial inequality. The kind of changes that the documentary suggests are needed tend to be vehemently disliked by the American people, unless the country’s survival is threatened as it was during WW2.
Larry, the race is shockingly close — Repubs clearly are often hiding, ahead of election day. I keep thinking about the denial of our overpopulation of the planet, and the resulting runaway climate change, rampant greed, enormous stress-led right-wing ideologies resulting in abuse of millions, with the abusers blissfully dead to the unfairness they inflict, as they self-righteously take more power over others, and hating the “others” for even existing, while still hypocritically claiming to be “pro-life”. I don’t believe the human race can survive. I have said it before, and I have felt this increasingly, really, since I was in my early teens, and first thought about it.
Agree, I loved that too, Bernadette, Sylvia, & Jo. I found it on Facebook earlier, and couldn’t wait to share it. Although the orange one is still tweeting his taunts, and all is not quite official yet — even though it’s getting there. The NYT and WaPo have called it.
“Live your life in such a way that the entire planet doesn’t dance in the street when you lose your job.”
Sylvia and Jo, what touched me in this video is how vulnerable Van Jones was on the air. He made it so clear how this president’s rhetoric has deeply affected so many people on a personal level to the point where they were suffering. Let’s hope that we can start a more positive and healing path now.
Yes, it’s a relief for everyone, maybe we can get things going on the right path; the virus, racial justice, and not having to listen to idiocy every day, come January, at any rate. I’m seeing celebration on the Latin America channel, Telemundo, where as the main stations still have football on. Watching celebration on the internet too. We all haven’t been this excited over a change in the presidency in quite a while. Thank goodness. All my psychics are celebrating too–hah.
S
LoL, Sylvia, at “your psychics”. I was impressed that one of those QAnon people — that group who believe 45 has been fighting the Dems, who are being run by a cabal of pedophiles who are sex-abusing children via pizza restaurants — was elected, from the state of Georgia to Congress! The same Georgia that may end up voting for Biden. largely because of the fine work of Stacey Abrams, ever since she lost the Governorship to the man who was in charge of running his own election for Governor! Sanity is always on the ballot.
That is odd that a QAnon supporter got in. I didn’t know that. Marjorie Taylor Greene is someone to watch out for, guess we are lucky no more got in from what I read there were others supporting the movement who lost. Thanks for the info. I hope Stacy can rally her state in the run-off in January to bring a democrat or two to the senate.
I also am finding that on some deeper level, my entire psyche is calming down, the more real 45’s defeat has become. He has been a pox on my stability of my universe for years, a constant unease I cannot shake, like an ever-present eruption of violence, just waiting and threatening to arise. Like something in my guts. And I am looking around everywhere for the source, going to sleep with it at night, or in wakefulness, often feeling tormented. No wonder I’ve often been feeling like a lunatic, reading and posting online all this year. Covid has played a part, but today it feels the lesser part.
I think I know a little of what you mean, Vicki. I felt a hope and a joy realizing we might get back to some normalcy that was hi-jacked by 45 and kept getting worse day by day. On a side note , I think the 45 supporters are going thru some depression. Fox news must be wondering who they can prop up now. All the other news people will have to re-gear for less fighting with an administration. It will take a while to wind down and know how to act for everyone. I think my friend is a little depressed. We don’t talk politics much, she knows I’m a Dem. We don’t want to argue, but I sense a let down in her emails. She brings cat food for the semi-ferals and is a good neighbor and caring. That’s what is important to me.
As Sylvia and Larry implied, sometimes it helps to listen to why people support Trump. Sammy “The Bull” Gravano, for instance, tapped into an enormous pool of wisdom drawn from a rich tapestry of eclectic life experiences and explained his support for Trump:
“The country doesn’t need a bookworm as president, it needs a mob boss,”
“You don’t need a Harvard graduate to deal with these people. These guys are real gangsters. You need a f—king gangster to deal with these people.”
(REFERENCE) https://pagesix.com/2018/04/22/sammy-the-bull-thinks-the-president-should-be-a-mob-boss/
Yikes, a mob boss. I see trump as being enamored of the Russian, N. Korean and Saudi leaders because they have full power and can get away with anything in their own country. He probably sees Russia and Saudi Arabia as business partners rather than opponents. He doesn’t know how to treat our allies except to bully and fight with them.
I was implying only that my friend and other conservatives were depressed and I felt badly for them, and for their fears that Fox news put in their minds about what a new administration will do, like cut social security, when that is not true.
My post was semi-facetious. Gravano’s statements about needing a mob boss for POTUS was clearly referencing Gravano’s own earlier life. The statements had a mild verbal resonance of PTSD from the ultra stressful lifestyle he carried out during his younger years, if anything (he supposedly killed 19 people!). Projection, in a manner of speaking I suppose.
“Gravano’s statements about needing a mob boss for POTUS was…”
Replace ‘was’ with ‘were’
Is a certain rigidity with English grammar traditions a necessity here?
Likely not, but I still become embarrassed by such errors.
I also would have replaced ‘supposedly’ with ‘allegedly’.
Who cares, right?
That happens to me too, when I make a mistake. I did it today on someone’s FB page, misspelling their name. I felt they knew I made a mistake, why it causes embarrassment I’m not sure. If I knew them better maybe it would not matter and I could shrug it off. It’s like someone sees you in public make a mistake, so many eyes upon you–a silent judgement. I feel less than, then–exposed maybe. Wonder where that comes from or when–probably very early.
I haven’t been receiving the comments here for some reason. It’s such a good day, such a relief to be replacing Donald Trump. He’s been so damaging. It gives me hope. Amazing that so many voted for Trump, and I don’t understand his appeal, but it’s very hard to beat a sitting president. There’s celebrations going on all over the country , and I feel that way here in my living room.
Phil
I have a good feeling about Joe Biden, and it’s historic for Kamala Harris to elected VP. California must be proud.
Just in feelings every day about my Baby dog (also named Boots). I emailed Erin (one of her moms) that I passed my 2 wk quarantine Wed.., and although I wasn’t very nervous, it was a relief. Erin responded, “THANKS!! Glad we’re all safe. Baby should be coming back to us soon. It’s hard to believe its been two weeks. This morning I was walking from the kitchen into the living room, Tina was sitting on the couch…she said “Oh, i thought I saw Boots walking in behind you”. 🙂 We miss that sweet little face around here. …Mona has started sleeping in her bed and Babys. Taking turns between the two now. She’s still moping around here some but seems a little bit better. She wasn’t really leaving our sides but she’s been laying outside again. She’s not eating as much if you can imagine that!! Not even her treats. I guess it’s not as fun with out her sister there.”
Mona and Baby were together all the time for the past 3+ years, so that’s of course sad for Mona, but I didn’t imagine she would eat less — she is food-driven, unlike Baby, Mona often finished eating Baby’s food. When I first gave Baby to them, I went through a period where I almost “saw” her around my house, out of the corner of my eye, just memory echoes. Those have not come back, but a lot of images of her in my memories have come back, more than I remembered I had. They replace a lot of the painful year this has been, when I hardly got to be with her, when she wasn’t feeling ill. I also hope I will be able to visit Erin, Tina and Mona again sometimes, but I am not sure if that will happen. At some point I will make it clearer that I would like that.
I just posted a page 5 for comments . Hopefully that will help those of you who are not seeing the comments posted. It seems there are glitches when the page gets too long. Gretch
Cant see Page 4 Gretch
I don’t see a page 5.
I don’t see page 5 either. I discovered my problem here had to do with my phone; I just wasn’t getting emails at all. I corrected that and all the blog posts came through.
Phil
I don’t see a page 6 either. Perhaps it’s best to keep that page in hiding since page 6 is afraid of page 7 after 7 8 9.
hi all,
i just feel the need to share and communicate as the isolation attached to the lockdown is getting to me.
i feel glad it seems to be going in the right direction for Biden, and I like the calm and dignified way he deals with it.
but I also heard some disturbing item in the news.
in Denmark Covid seems to have jumped from humans onto minks, if that is the right name, (nutria) which in that country seem to be bred in cages by the millions just for their fur to provide posh coats for the wealthy and insane.
the virus has had a mutation then and already jumped back from the caged minks to other people, thus starting to spread a new variant which would not respond to the actual vaccines in progress.
so now up to 15 million of caged minks have to be killed, which will take about ten days, and the whole region is in isolation to try to prevent the spreading of tis new and dangerous Corona variant.
as I feel shocked that in Denmark they still breed minks in small cages just for their fur, which I find unacceptable it almost feels like a proper retaliation from nature to punch back to crazy and cruel humankind…
then I am also in a struggle with the nursing home, as on Friday I noticed mom’s bed was up in the highest position, making it very hard to get in or even sit on it.
so I asked one of the caretakers to lower it.
later in the evening my sister called me, I had told her and my brother about the bed, and she let me know another visitor, family member of a fellow resident of mom’s ward, had told her mom now often is seen asleep in the community room during the day, with her head on the table, and added that she had heard the staff puts the bed in that high position to keep her from napping during the day as she is awake too often during the night.
it really upset me, as they should know very well my mom has the character to climb in and out of her bed despite side bars or high positions when she really wants to, so this is actually very dangerous possible causing bone fractures in such a case.
we have had this kind of discussion already last year, when she was recovering of an almost fatal illness, and her doctor had to agree on that and just advised a soft foam carpet next to the bed to soften possible falls, and to not put the bed in a high position anymore.
and about the matter of keeping her awake more during the day, all of this is of no use when she sleeps with her head on a table out of boredom for a lack of activities there lately.
she complained to me recently about neck and shoulder pain as well!
they should let her take naps, she will be 90 in a few weeks, and just wake her up regularly and invite her to come have a cup of tea, or ask her if she feels like a walk in the garden, which immediately wakes her up as she loves that.
so this morning i called the nursing home, but as it was Saturday I did not get a head nurse on the phone, but the nurse in charge listened to me and promised me to call the ward and to tell them to leave the bed in a low position.
a girlfriend called me and promised me to take me over there tomorrow afternoon so then I can check if that advice is being followed.
if not I will go to the office there and give them my opinion in very clear terms.
i have to wait until Monday before I can reach her doctor or the director or a head nurse, so I still feel tense as it is not resolved entirely yet, but also feel some partial relief as I have called first thing this morning and will go there tomorrow unexpectedly.
i feel tired from having to deal with a bunch of problems mostly by myself, but am also aware I do have some help too to some degree.
doom and gloom feelings seem to lurk in the background a lot of the time but I need to keep fighting to deal with things , which is my first priority now.
during my sleep I am very busy dreaming, which feels useful like a good way of processing stuff.
it feels good to share this here, it takes away some of the tension and pressure about Zoom group, don’t know if I will be able to attend, and my sound problem with the headphone system is still unsolved, Corona, and I am not very good at telling a story, at times, most times, the fear of boring people or taking up too much time or not telling a clear story often interferes and can make me babble or keep talking in some kind of despair .
come to think about that, it is despair about really getting the attention I need, and sadness as well as I feel tears welling up.
the feeling is probably ‘no one is really interested’.
‘nobody really cares’
M
Margaret, I know I don’t respond to what’s going on with you very often and I sometimes feel badly about this not knowing how to remedy the situation. Part of the problem for me is that I’m besieged with too many issues of my own and I’ve always figured you have a stronger support network than I do in general, anyway. Mine’s very thin and I’m running scared as it is.
Wow, that crying emotional CNN reporter was so very very touching…
great day despite all nasty lies and hostility!
Margaret
I do feel Margaret’s angst about being ignored, that no one cares. In a small way it feels as though I am ‘saved’ when someone pays any attention to me when I really feel troubled. Someone who is paying any attention to me is someone ‘rescuing’ me. A white horse-mounted knight galloping towards me as he emerges from the thick, gloomy fog. A relief from the endless bleakness of no one caring one whit about me.
I think about those who cannot even blog or talk about how terrible that feels. Without such outlets, it’s no surprise that many would gravitate toward self-harm or suicide.
No doubt such helpless feelings of not being rescued can resonate with earlier helpless times when practical adult solutions are not available for a toddler or infant to get what they need, other than to rely on an adult to fulfill them. They then give up on being rescued after trying various baby ways of coping, to get attention, to feel stability, familiarity and safety when an adult does not recognize and meet those needs.
Perfect description of what I suspected I went through, thanks for ‘rescuing’ me with some attention, Sylvia. Your acknowledgement provided me with a sense of relief today, as I am not doing so well at the moment.
Guru,
no need to worry about me.
my comments are from a few days ago, due to some computer hassles they appeared with a little delay.
I have been dealing with the issues I mentioned as best as possible so far and feel not as distressed anymore.
M
Glad you’re doing better now, Margaret. I sometimes try to convince myself that Primally-associated people can handle life’s vicissitudes better than ordinary folk. Not always the case for me, it seems.
Ok I have added another page . It seems to have worked this time G.