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June 13, 2021
This is my I think 8th sojourn into the uber-dimension where perhaps the personality of the late Arthur Janov is hanging around (that’s an accurate term).
But first though, I’d like to once again be the clarion caller.
People considering entering the healing profession of psychotherapy and counseling should not rely only on talk (“insight therapy” in Janov’s cosmology). Dr. Janov was not wrong when he advocated accessing feelings which necessarily involves an individual more honestly, step-by-step FEELING the hurts, the anger, the fear. As we all know that always brings on the tears, that flow from the heartbreak we’ve been running from. Dr. Janov pioneered the therapy and theory. Indeed both need to be and will be tweaked but the principal of “becoming that child, that baby” is a solid bedrock. No building a psychological theory on sand here.
I also believe the Primal Institute and International Primal Center should prepare for the future; I hope there is an ongoing program. After all it’s not 1998 when I attended a public seminar at Dr. Janov’s International Primal Center called “Primal Therapy in the Millennium”.
I think people in the “feeling community”, in the “regressive therapy community” who hear this “clarion call” should consider getting the necessary requisites for the state of California and other states, to practice therapy, utilizing some of the techniques and insights pioneeered by Arthur Janov. It seems that that is a brave and noble thing to do.
Now, in order to bring up outrage in a few; pity in many, ridicule in the rest of this unique audience; and to stimulate conversation; I will once again indulge in an imagining of what a channeling session of Arthur Janov might be like; that is, information that the personality of Arthur Janov might convey to this group with a putative common interest.
Part 8
I now hear Dr. Janov coming through…
_________________________________________________________________________
All right.
Here in this reality there is a great love that is far more perceivable than your “dense” dimension. This does not make this “place” better and in fact the same loving consciousness permeates your dimension.
This place is a place of expansion while yours is more world of shadows but is extremely creative even if your self-imposed limitations largely occlude this magnificent aspect.
In a certain way, where I am in a resting place, where a personality sheds the suit of beliefs willingly accepted upon birth. After all the beliefs largely were not successful, in your terms.
Here there are, what you might term, schools. They can be described as “between lives” realities where the self absorbs any number of aspects of creation. Most, however, are geared for “physical reality living”, the realm of shadows which means “you’ll be BAAAACK!!!”.
You would not believe the number of “souls” in the queue to enter the your physical reality. This is because the three-dimensional reality exposes all false belief. It is the place where you perceive your shadow. This kind of experience greatly facilitates learning in higher dimensions. It is a requisite for all souls, if you will. Without physical reality living a number of times, the self cannot become more itself. Some version of this experience will be created in order to accomplish this.
You actually cannot “advance” in your terms, without, what you think of as, reincarnational existences.
Paradoxically, reincarnation does not exist as you think of it because all “lives” are simultaneous.
Okay, back to the “past”, as you think of it.
Within you is the Feeling Child. It is intimately connected to your soul.
What is the nature of the Feeling or Inner Child?
It is the essence of innocense. It has power beyond your imagination but as I wrote rather eloquently, I dare say, its growth was stunted along the way. See “The Primal Scream”, “The New Primal Scream”, etc. for a ground-level explanation of the process.
What is the Feeling Child’s thing?
Well… it is to express its great unfathomable grief.
“Please help me”.
“Nobody loves me”.
“Please pay attention to me”.
It is pulling at you every waking moment to look his or her way. “Look what I know. Look what I perceive. PLEASE. This is an exigency. I’m broken hearted”.
The Feeling Child lives more in the present than your half-world (my term) self and it (Primal) screams for your attention but you insist on spacing out due to the “Splits” (see Primal Theory).
It doesn’t matter how you get to feelings: via emotions or thoughts. Either will lead you to the source, the heartbreak of the human race.
There is a “ blessed holiness” to this realm of experience that flows from experiencing your feelings. It is basically free of time although it can track time. It actually is accessible now, not in “the afterlife”. You might say that you “can bring heaven to earth”.
The three-dimensional world is not some “throwaway, heavy, dense place of pain, suffering, dismay, mayhem and “then you die”.
Hardly; it is actually very spiritual and contains within it all the potential (with obvious limitations) of, what you call, heaven or paradise, or whatever concept you hold about such a reality. From my vantage point it rather glistens with wondrous loving energy. It’s amazing, really. All Creation is.
Ultimately, it is the heritage of mankind but you are not at the mercy of a script, say a version of a script you learned in childhood from your parents or whoever raised you, as well as your institutions such as schools, religious venues, and popular culture.
Remember, however, the present is insistent as is the Feeling Child.
To paraphrase a popular homily of the Western World: Grief is such sweet sorrow.
I’ve arrived; thanks for the new page, Gretchen.
S
I wanted to check out what the Good News Network had to say these days.
There are quite a few inspiring stories, such as the guy who sits with his typewriter on a sidewalk in New York and helps people write letters to friends who have the blues. Another story is about a Pfizer coronavirus vaccine being 90% effective. And yet another one about Coloradans giving the thumbs-up to reintroduce gray wolves west of the Rockies, yay! For dog owners, this one is about a Vermont mountain retreat that is “the Mecca for dogs and dog lovers” — all you dog owners must check it out!
But I chose to post this link. It’s about psilocybin mushrooms that are exceptionally helpful with depression and anxiety. My question…. where do I get that stuff???
https://www.goodnewsnetwork.org/cpcr-2020-study-on-psilocybin-as-treatment-for-depression/
Well coincidentally shrooms were just legalized for therapeutic usage in Oregon during the election which just took place. Small amounts of street drugs, such as heroin, cocaine, and methamphetamine, were also decriminalized in that state.
I took shrooms a few times in college where a buddy of mine scored me a quarter-ounce bag. I did have a couple of good trips off of it before my tolerance became too high and there was no effect for me. Although the high can last about 6 hours and I did a lot of laughing at how stupid everything was around me, that also became the time I started to seriously wonder, “Why do I need to be taking this stuff? Is there really something wrong with my mind which necessitates my taking this? Why doesn’t my dad need to take something like this when I deem it necessary?”
As you read what I just wrote, it’s worth keeping in mind I was groping around in an ultra-low information environment as a 90’s college kid with no internet and a few years before I ran into Janov’s books. Never mind the car collision problem in this country which also inflicted massive damage on my life without any broadened scope of knowledge about how our military-industrial overlords need to keep the human cost quiet, etc. The true dark ages.
I view what I did as extremely risky, and I did it before my brain was fully developed (which takes place around age 25).
Would I do shrooms again today? Probably not.
As I wrote above, I was asking myself a host of disturbingly clueless and discouraging questions about why my life was so inexplicably mediocre and, once the shrooms wore off, my depression was enhanced by the persistent nature of those questions.
No college course or library was offering this book at the time which would have helped me traverse those years on slightly steadier footing at the very least: https://www.amazon.com/Its-No-Accident-Behind-Senseless/dp/1411681568
Looking back on this sparks my anger and ire once more. Why couldn’t our military-industrial overlords at least give me the fucking courtesy to tell me what the fuck was really going on instead of designing college courses for their own profit?
Looking back with what I understand now, it was really unnecessary for me to take any shrooms. All I needed was a least a few answers as a starting point to latch onto, particularly in matters of life and literal bone-crushing death. My mother’s death certificate didn’t have a pretty description of her femur bones and our military industrial overlords didn’t give a shit. Keep the cars running.
Hi, Guru. As you say, knowing why these senseless deaths keep happening on the road would have made some sense of why your mom died. You could focus your attention to blame for the devastation it did to your life. You feel it could have anchored you in some way against your lost feeling. But also the death of a family member for any reason would also be devastating, such as from cancer, though it would be more easily accepted as possibly a part of nature. That there is no general support or recognition about the greed that drives the damage on the roads makes it harder to bear. There was nothing to latch onto as when a soldier dies and his/her family has recognition and support.
But I don’t think that just knowing the reason for your mom’s death was what would have made things better and easier to cope with, ultimately. I think all the confusion and lost feelings were from the trauma laid down of being wrenched from the person you were closest to at two and a half yrs old. Inclusive of that was the devastation your father felt at losing his life partner and how he was coping. That pain was there all the time you were growing up. Whether it was death of a parent from an accident or illness or another way of loss, a little child will be devastated and grow up probably asking–‘what went wrong?’ Adding to that is the feeling of being cheated from the life you should have had.
I think what some of us deal with here is our very early years when the imprints were laid down that will affect the rest of our lives. And I think reliving those traumatic moments of loss, the need for safety and closeness and love from a parent that we didn’t get is what is finally freeing and resolving. Just my opinion.
S
Sylvia, it’s clear you’re trying to extend as much love, sympathy, and support as you possibly can for me here….and it feels as though I would be wrecking any future prospects of your gratefully received support if I spent any energy starting to explain more specifically why I have some disagreements with your opinion. I’ve decided at this time your support and sympathy is more important for me than those other considerations. It would take an enormous amount of carefully organized presentation work for me to explain our differences of opinion. I am not dismissive of Janov’s ideas, but rather it is only a fraction of the picture where I am concerned.
I did spend an extra day quietly mulling over your post and I felt this is the best way to respond overall.
I would need a healthy amount of lifetime income assurance from annuities, a beachfront Malibu home, and a hot pitcher of coffee while watching the sunset before I can begin pouring my entire heart and soul into absolutely all the little reasons why I can’t completely align myself with your opinion, which you graciously put forth in a humble fashion (much appreciated for that, thank you).
In fact, that was my first big, huge crying Primal after I first met Mark. Drawing from my watching the Pacific Ocean from my Venice hostel room and how absolutely everything had completely overpowered me as ‘endless’ and an ‘eternity’.
Okay.
What a kind way to respond; I’m touched.
This stuff probably just helps open up feelings. But we’re already doing that with primal and in a better way.
Phil
My thoughts, too, Phil; and perhaps in a negative way because the body’s ability to shut down, shut the door, when it has had enough is impaired.
Bernadette, I would exhaust all non-drug options as much as possible before venturing on to shrooms. It’s unfortunate that the answers beneath why I resorted to that option myself were so infuriating (as explained above). Maybe you just need a little more time to uncover personal answers safely before trying something which could radically alter your brain chemistry on a permanent basis?
I like your advice Guru. I felt the same since my late teens regarding taking mood altering substances. I’m fortunate that I was never so overwhelmed that I needed to take drugs to shield me from reality. I came close, but luckily read the Primal Scream in time and the insight from it let me hang on to some hope and helped me to limp along until I could get to therapy.
Larry, you know…I just finished talking about how the greed of the richest depends on endless automotive travel with all its dire consequences for many thousands of people, and shortly thereafter you talked about how FUN your truck is driving through the snow. I won’t try to stop you from saying it, but….it almost felt as though you were trying to torment me indirectly.
Something like…Daniel talking about losing his grandparents to Hitler and I would come along and say, “Hey HEY everybody! Look how COOL my new iron wrought ‘Arbeit Macht Frei’ sign is in my living room!”
I read your recent posts Guru, but I can’t remember if that was before or after I posted here the copy of my letter to Gretchen. I was thinking only of all primal bloggers and friends in general when I posted it. My intention was to offer something upbeat for a change instead of always my feelings of hopelessness and emptiness. It never occurred to me that my post would torment you, although I can see why it could now that you’ve explained it.
I used the, ” being a good boy,” good friend to all, opiate. The cool kids hated me and I thought they were cracked. Oh, fuck, to be honest, me and my guitar provided the mood music for my cool friends to make out to. I was too fucking numb to know I was overwhelmed. There’s a book, ” I’ve Been Down So Long it Looks Like Up to Me.”
subscribing
It occurred to me this morning that I come to this blog and write about my life mostly when I’m in distress and am trying to sort out my life. So I think why not for a change share good news, about a day when everything worked out for me, because this therapy isn’t just about pain, it’s also about good outcomes. Here is what I wrote to Gretchen yesterday afternoon:
Right after Zoom group on Sunday I underwent a few bouts of crying. I cried that it shouldn’t have been so difficult for all of my teenage and adult life to have a relationship with a girl, a girlfriend. I cried that I am still the same person right now, with exactly the same fear and difficulty regarding relationships as I had back then. I cried that as always I want to avoid relationships and retreat into the ‘imaginary’ bosom of my family, but there was in reality no such safe haven for me from which to gain confidence in risking life. Finally I cried how scared I am to move forward because I inherit from childhood the terror of moving forward alone, and yet how deadly it would be to just stand in place because then I will stay alone as I am and have been most of my life.
We were having a blizzard of sorts here during Zoom group on Sunday that lasted to 3 am this morning. It wasn’t the worst blizzard I’ve experienced but it did leave a foot of snow, blown into higher accumulations in drifts in places. I was really keen to see how my RAV4 Hybrid All-wheel drive (with the option of TRAIL drive mode), with its high ground clearance and studded winter tires would handle driving in the foot deep snow. I was up at 5 am and outside at 6. First I had to sweep the snow off the RAV4 and shovel it away from the doors so I could get inside. Then off I went, one of the first vehicle in places through the condo parking lot and in the streets. IT WAS SO FUN. The way the RAV4 churned through that snow I felt like I was floating through it. I passed a few vehicles parked askew in the parking lot and in the street, abandoned by their unfortunate owners because they got stuck in the snow. I even passed by a City bus stuck and abandoned in the street.
This was the first time I drove my RAV4 through streets and parking lot made impassable to most vehicles by snow. Having gained confidence in it’s performance, at 9 am I texted my special lady friend that I’d love the adventure of trying to drive the 5 miles or so to her place through the snow filled streets and I’d relish the physical exercise of shoveling the snow off her driveway. I thought she would say I was silly and to not risk the journey or the possibility of hurting myself with shoveling. But no, she replied ‘I would not want to deprive you of fun exercise so come on over.’ It was SO FUN plowing through the snow filled streets to her place. Not many vehicles were able to get through that snow. Mine felt like is was floating through it. After I arrived a her place, I totally enjoyed the physical exertion of shoveling her driveway for her.
She came out and helped shovel for a while, as much as she was physically capable of without hurting herself. Sometime after noon I was done and went into her house to have some tea with her and visit for a while in her sun room. We fell into a really enjoyable conversation. I’m able to say more to her more openly and honestly. More and more I’ve discovering I can be entirely myself with her and letting her see who I am. She is appreciating it and is honest with me in return. I’m liking her more and more and feeling more and more comfortable with her. I’m trusting more and more that something special is growing between us.
She wants to make me some soup in return for shoveling her driveway. I told her it really wasn’t necessary, I enjoyed myself, but I would graciously accept her offer of home made soup.
I am happy.
Larry
Larry, that’s great news! Even a blizzard can’t slow you down.
Phil
Ha ha. For me blizzards are a special time, a kind of adventure when people pull together in community to help one another. Blizzards can be aggravating, scary, dangerous and even deadly, but my experience of them has been more positive than not, maybe because when growing up on the farm, playing outside in winter was normal and fun, especially in the piled up snow banks resulting from a blizzard, and having grown up on self-dependent, resourceful prairie farms my parents knew to take precautions and make preparations to optimize the comfort and safety of our lives and their farming livelihood through whatever winter could throw at us.
Larry, what a great story, and so romantic! I am happy to hear that you are happy! I love hearing good news, so keep them coming 🙂 From the way you describe your new friend, she sounds really special, warm and caring.
Thanks Bernadette. Every now and then I come up against and emotional wall though, where something about her tells me she is not the one and I feel I don’t want to go any further with her. Such is how I am feeling now after a phone conversation with her last night. I expect a primal is on the rise for me, after which I expect I will see more clearly what is/was preventing me from wanting to go further with her.
Wonderful , Larry; and thank you for the good news story. I don’t know how to post from Youtube to this page, but for anyone interested, ” The World Could Use A Little Good News Today, ” Anne Murray; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOR6Vx-Ogbk
Larry,
I was really touched while reading your story.
i am so happy for you, it is inspiring.
Today I once more experienced how nice company entirely cheers me up, even while often on forehand it feels like too much to cope with and even scary for that matter.
I would have lunch here with my best girlfriend, but texted her about an upcoming migraine this morning , and that I had taken some medication but still did not feel very good.
luckily she did not notice my message and came over and by then my headache and nausea had subsided and we had a great meal and even greater conversation and laughed a lot.
so more and more I am able when fear sets in before socializing to remind myself it will most likely be very enjoyable.
and much much better than the safe but lonely and empty option of staying by myself at home and fight off depression by being busy or reading or eating etc.
it is good to still have stuff to do and places to go to or people to meet, on Zoom or otherwise, despite of the partial lockdown here.
I have two forms allowing me ‘essential travelling’, one from the nursing home, and one from the phone helpline volunteering service.
that last instruction course is now mostly on Zoom but not always.
tomorrow I visit my mom, sometimes before also feeling not very enthusiastic about it, and reminding myself I do it for her, and not necessarily for myself, but invariably I find out how well it makes me feel, I always feel very good on and after a visit.
so I hope all those irrational fears will keep wearing off, bit by little bit.
primal therapy did help me very much to get stronger and more sensitive and real, and has improved the quality of my life so much I have no words for it…
Margaret
Enjoying spending time with people has such a positive effect on us Margaret. Our species is wired to need and be social. That’s the key to our survival. Without connection we die. I’m glad you enjoyed time with your friend. I wish more of that for you.
Margaret,
why could the prospect of company with your girlfriend be scary ahead of time? That’s great you went through with it and had a good time.
Phil
Phil,
that is a good question.
it is a person I feel most safe with actually, this morning it was for a big part the physical discomfort of the migraine , with some leftover old irrational feeling, irrational in this case, of fearing I would not be able to cope somehow.
the ‘not feeling up to it’ might be a mixture of very early fear of not making it through birth, combined with the sum of awkward nesses and bad experiences that still make up some unprocessed residue.
but the good thing is that with this girlfriend I feel really very safe and we laugh a lot and also are able to talk about painful stuff.
time flies with her mostly, until we both start to sense it has been ok or one of us has to do something else. so it is very easy really and very enjoyable…
M
I was very moved by an item on the news about music therapy for people with dementia.
an old Spanish lady with severe Alzheimer, who passed away since, was filmed sitting in her wheelchair lost in her own world, without contact with people around her.
she had been a prima ballerina in her younger years.
then Tchaikovsky’s Swan lake music was played loud enough so she would hear it, and you could see her lift her head, she slowly started making small movements with her hands in the rhythm of the music, according to the actual choreography of the original ballet that was showed as well.
then gradually she started lighting up, smiling, and making bigger and bigger movements with hands and arms, sitting up straight and even lifting her arms up, it was really extremely touching.
it is part of a video from a music therapy organization, who show it can also trigger alert and clear moments in the persons with dementia, as actually that same old ballerina was then asked about her former dancing, she was still smiling and responded to the questions.
this video seems to be going viral, which is good as too many people don’t make efforts anymore to reach people with dementia, not even some relatives.
i am still often amazed at how my mom keeps surprising me with some of our conversations or some of her actions and sense of humor.
i am trying to convince the nursing home lately to stimulate her more, as they have diminished the amount of animation too much and it has a negative effect on many of the residents in her ward, who get depressed or angry, out of boredom and frustration and loneliness.
when I go tomorrow it will be the third visit I make in six days, and then my brother will go on Sunday,.
of course I can’t do that every week but I go minimally once a week and often twice.
and i call her every day, and I notice that even with her forgetfulness she is starting to look forward to it and tells me every time she thought it would be me, and how happy she is to hear me…
my brother just called me as well and asked about her and about me, which feels good as there had been some slight frictions between us lately.
caring about the people around us feels linked to caring about oneself…
M
I think the lady, Conchita (?) Gonzales with Alzheimer that started suddenly making the dancing movements with her hands and arms and sat upright smiling, was so very touching because of the big contrast between her doing these proud graceful gestures and the image of the ‘poor dementing’, that people feel sorry for and often treat in a condescending way as if they are little children or don’t address at all.
Inside of all of them is still a feeling person, a unique being with an unique story…
worth looking up, this video, really!
the words music therapy, ballerina and Tchaikovsky spelled possibly differently, and Gonzales, might do it…
dignity is a key word for me in all of this.
maybe it touches me even more as being blind and half deaf makes dignity an issue for me as well as opposed to shame and embarrassment and being or feeling like an outsider.
respect is also a key word, too often not given to the elderly in general…
M
A dear friend so diagnosed was non verbal, but when I remarked how much she enjoyed teaching she would, every time, begin conversing with me, those memories always intact, and clearly with appropriate emotions, and that she retired because she, “.. didn’t have the motivation anymore.” I feel sad that in this country the public senior care system offers only herd confinement.
Yesterday was the first time in months received a post or could access the page. Hope all are doing ok.
David, since you said you have not been able to access the blog in months, perhaps you did not hear, sadly, of Jack’s passing. He died on September 18th, I believe it was a few days short of his 88th birthday. You may want to read some of the comments here on the blog in that week and the following week on page 4. He is missed.
Posts haven’t been coming in by email since page 5, not sure why, and have just got up to date.
Larry, I’m glad your relationship is developing, and great that you’re fit enough to shovel snow so soon after your health problems..tho maybe you were fired up on adrenaline!!!
I was fired up on something Jo. 🙂 Likely I was hit with a triple whammy of 1) post-blizzard effect that stirs able-bodied locals to help neighbours and friends recover from a bllizzard, and 2) sense of adventure and itch to try out new, high clearance, all wheel drive, small/medium SUV hybrid in city made impassable to most vehicles (including anything I’ve previously owned) by deep new snow effect, and 3) desire to engage in endeavour leading to high likelihood outcome of spending more time with special lady-friend and getting to know her more effect. #3 not only adds to but symbiotically intensifies 1) and 2). And lastly, d) post-blizzard aversion to feeling stuck, isolated, helpless and alone at home effect.
I’d been exercising at the gym through the summer and fall during my health problems, so I have a reasonable feel for my physical limitations. I did only as much shoveling that day as I felt comfortable with without hurting myself, reveled in the physical exertion, was tired by the time I stopped and left the remaining half for her young renter to finish another day, and felt terrific about being a sort of rescue/hero–a way better feeling than being stuck alone and helpless at home post-blizzard. The next day I shoveled out a 78 year old lady friend’s car in the street. While doing hers I felt how tired I was physically from the previous day and it was a real chore to get her car shoveled out and recognized I could hurt myself here if I’m not careful. I am in recuperation now and haven’t touched a shovel in the two days since, nor do I have any desire to, oddly enough.
As regards to the gym, a couple of weeks ago I stopped going because the number of new COVID cases per day keeps rising here and the community incidence feels too high for me to feel safe to workout at a gym, especially since no one else but me was wearing any kind of mask in the gym. I wore a locally available K95 to protect not only my community but especially to protect myself. More recently I bought N95s that I found online.
Larry, thanks for your nice wish.
actually it is surprising how busy my life has been lately despite the partial lockdown.
with the visits to my mom, specially those with a nice cat-loving driver with which i am developing a friendship, the brief weekly visits of the caretakers who do my shopping and some administration, now and then a girlfriend still coming by for a lunch with mostly social distancing, and the Zoom groups , my household and the cats and all electronical and other problems to solve, and audio books to fill up the little gaps here and there, it is not empty at all.
on Saturday the classes for the phone helpline are through Zoom, from 10 am till 3 pm, with a few pauses here and there.
I just read up about this time’s subject, crisis calls and suicide calls, their backgrounds and how to deal with them in different stages of urgency.
then Sunday Zoom group, and next week for a change two dentist visits hm….
i also started a new course as the third statistics module does not work right now, practica cancellations and now private help by teacher due to Corona.
so I started a new course in the meantime, Anthrozoology from a psychological perspective, about the relations and interactions between humans and animals, from the earliest times in evolution up to today, for many different animals, raised by humans or animals getting profit by hanging around them to pets and assistance animals.
I am just starting but it seems very interesting.
i am glad I did take those initiatives and don’t sink away in Corona isolation depression.
yesterday during my visit to mom, I took her out in the garden and we ventured deeper into the wood, it is a large garden, than I usually do.
mom sees stuff she wants to pick up and look at as she still revels about nature, leaves, chestnuts, feathers etc., so we wandered off and back on to some trails, and finally lost sight of our exact location.
i told her to look through the trees to spot the buildings, but we ended up on some parking between cars , it was a bit scary bo be lost but I did not panic, could always call the home and well, not tell them to pick us up at a certain spot but to come look for us on their grounds on some parking lot for example.
but luckily we finally encountered an old man who took us back through some shrubs to a spot I recognized and from which mom and I could make our way back.
a whole adventure, haha, nothing better against threatening boredom and routine!
but next time I won’t go that far anymore, stay with mom on the outsides of all those huge old trees so I can keep some track of where we are…
M
Margaret, it sounds like you’ve got a lot going on, and that’s an interesting new course you’re taking. You and Larry have inspired me to share.
My wife and I are now doing much better, quite good I would say, after having difficulties. I hope to keep it this way, and to move quicker when we seem to be going down hill., Usually I have a lot of trouble doing that.
I’m happy with the used car we bought for my son because his new job involves a lot of driving, so he really needed it. He helped pick it out, and is quite pleased with it too.
His old one is on it’s last legs and isn’t at all reliable. Yesterday before leaving with the new car, he was complaining a lot about his job. About the work distribution and how things are done etc.. He has always freely shared his complaints with us, and in a few days he may be feeling completely different about things. Whether the job works out or not, he deserves a good, safe, car., but I think and hope it will work out for him.
Both our son’s will be coming home for Thanksgiving and Christmas. It’s hard to imagine them not coming. One tries to be very careful, when it comes to Covid, but we don’t notice so much that he is. The other doesn’t try at all; he only does what’s mandated. It is worrisome considering what’s going on around the country. It seems only a matter of time before the number of cases sky rocket again here.
Phil
Phil, I would be worried that the one son or both could pass Covid to you, if they’re not really being careful, and could be carriers, with no symptoms. Take care.
As am I worried for you and your wife Phil. It is only one Thanksgiving to miss to avoid an elevated risk of catching COVID….a horrible illness, in my opinion. There will be many more Thanksgivings, if you stay healthy.
Vicki and Larry, we’re thinking on how to deal with this for Thanksgiving and Christmas. One thing I’m thinking is we should wear masks if they do come, although that will feel weird. I have been going to work since the pandemic started and have been wearing a mask all day, every day. Or maybe they shouldn’t come at all. The case numbers are pretty low here but are starting to rise. The governor has just put back some restrictions on restaurants, bars, and gyms. I’m starting to think I’ll get the vaccine as soon as I can, even though it will be a new product that I might think of avoiding. I think it will be available first for hospital workers. It has to be stored in extremely cold freezers, which hardly anyone has. It’s going to take a long time to get everyone vaccinated.
Phil
True enough that the case numbers are pretty low in New York State and in New York City. Better than they are here. In fact, the US in general is doing better than Canada, in terms of # cases per 100,000 people in the last 7 days.
Manitoba 202
Saskatchewan 92
BC 64
New York 24.4 (excluding New York City)
New York City 16.7
California 17.1
Our tentative plans have our sons visiting for the holidays and we will be wearing masks. Our kitchen has seating and opens up to a dining room, so we can have distance for meals. Sars-cov-2 is not invited to any of our festivities.
Sure, wear masks, Phil. But obviously not while actually eating — and even make sure you’re not talking loudly or singing, because those project more — what is the term, I don’t remember — volatile virus particles – “respiratory droplets”. So choirs catch it easily. And hopefully your sons are on-board with the plan, or I would bow out.
Phil,
thanks for sharing!
M
chopped liver, that’s what i am. dear gramma, missing mom, young aunt, middle aunt and mean uncle, old,aunt and uncle…could not pay any attention to me for too many seconds, minutes, hours, days, years…so it is natural that this is my 1st nature. then, now, and forever. what am i, chopped liver? yep
at least that intense pain of ‘not even being alive’ is pushing off to the side my new intense. pain of ‘doggie death’. neat trick i learned.
I LIED. THE PAIN OF LOSING THAT DOG IS ALMOST UNBEARABLE.
yesterday we had a zoom group for more schooling for the free phone helpline volunteering.
the subject was ‘crisis calls’ and ‘suicide calls’.
after some theory and brief exercises there was a ‘mystery guest’, who made a so called call to the Tele help desk.
we were divided in two groups of about 7 persons, who could freely take turns in the role of the one answering to the call.
the mystery guest was a lady calling in distress, after she had had an argument with her partner who had left to go get drunk.
she was very scared he would beat her on his return, and also worried about the two children.
she did not have many persons to turn to and felt resistant to do so as well, and felt she depended financially on her partner etc.
it was interesting to hear how the other trainee volunteers dealt with the lady, some good, others not so good in my opinion.
of course I also tried, and actually then she was prepared to call a friend, which gave me a good feeling.
of course it was an exercise, an experienced volunteer doing the role of the lady, but she did it really very well and we all learned a lot from the feedback.
in the afternoon there was a second mystery guest, this time a young man who had been at the terrorist attack on the airport some years ago, who still felt extremely stressed and scared, especially around the date of the attack every year.
he felt so bad he considered ending his life.
he also played his role so well it was very convincing, and again we were a little group interacting with him when we felt like doing so.
that too was a very interesting exercise, and again I felt some people did very well and some actually, in my humble opinion, not at all.
it makes me wonder how the supervisors deal with someone that does not seem to be empathetic enough, even after all the coaching.
but well, again I really liked the exercise, and it was especially nice I got a compliment for several of my interventions afterwards in a mail from one of the instructors.
i am so very glad to start being part of this, to learn more as this is a specific kind of skill, as it is a specific situation, which can vary a lot with every single call.
it feels very rewarding even just to learn and interact with the others.
i don’t seem to have any time to get bored, with the university course about people and animals and all the other stuff to do, life feels surprisingly full these days, despite Corona.
M
Larry,
just wanted to say thanks to you as well, in group I was too upset and overwhelmed to do so, but I did hear you when you stood up for me by saying I had already explained etc.
It felt like a voice of sanity to hold onto somehow.
i knew I also overreacted probably but well, better that then to bottle it all up i guess…
it is strange, I felt so good at the beginning of group, how things ca change so quickly when some feeling gets triggered.
now i am not feeling that upset anymore, guess it came on so hard as I had not seen it coming at all…
have a very nice week, smiley, M
” i knew I also overreacted probably but well, better that then to bottle it all up i guess…” Margaret this touched something in me. Maybe it’s your courage to be vulnerable, first feelings of, wow, how great to be matter of fact, and sharing it; somehow that honesty feels very reassuring, safety. Now triggering my anxiety of reprisals, abuse, getting into trouble for making a fool of myself.
Decades ago, and I may have written about this before, I was a Help Line volunteer trainer. The one element that sticks with me was sharing with them that whenever they took a call, regardless of any self perception, motivation to accept the position, they are exactly who the caller believes and needs them to be. I also believe that I was the recipient in my various volunteerings; the opportunity to serve.
Good on ya Margaret. dave hardy
Thank you Margaret. I feel that everyone’s nerves had become frazzled by the frequent and loud, irritating interruptions from the piano, and after the piano was muted hadn’t had time yet to calm down when interruptions from you digital assistant became the new source of people’s still pent up irritation.
Hmm… not my take on it. I felt, and others indicated irritation from the start of group, with one person’s irritation exploding before the piano interference,
hi Dave,
thanks for your reply.
next week I will be meeting my own personal mentor at the helpline, a long time experienced lady volunteer, and can listen to her answering some calls to learn from it, without hearing the caller for privacy reasons.
i like our training, it is thorough and theoretically and emotionally well organized, a client centered approach with high standards of quality and respect for every caller.
what did you find most rewarding and most difficult personally as a helpline volunteer?
Margaret
I was only a trainer, Margaret. I volunteered in other programs. A sad experience, a guy I’d been friendly with showed up at a session I was doing at a local hospital. He was a long time Help Line volunteer. We spoke briefly and he sat in the front row. At break he told me he had come because I was doing the session and gave me some accolades. I watched him during the second half and was convinced he had come to say goodbye. He slipped out sometime before the end. I argued with myself if I should drive out to his house and talked myself into thinking I was overreacting. He was dead by then, a self inflicted gunshot. He left a note which included a short message to me about how much I, or how I treated others, meant to him. I messed up. Although I believe people who make an accurate appraisal of their circumstances and reach a conclusion to suicide have that right. I recall a few folks I would never have wished forced to live.
I do have a genuine deep caring for others. But I also have a neurotic caring response, I cared for a mother who several times tried to murder me. Then she disarmed my rightful feelings about that by telling me the horror stories about her own childhood abuse, a Dickensonian nightmare she then visited upon me. The perfect storm that birthed a social worker, a therapist, a self taught repairman who fixed clients’ and friends’ major appliances and cars, cut the hair of dorm mates…… I truly was looking for nothing from them. Just being there for them was enough.
That’s also what volunteering gave me, the gift of being able to be there. I never saw the recipients as being fortunate they had someone to turn to, to receive; I was the lucky one, I owed them for that privelege, the privelege of serving.
I once jokingly told my mentor I was sorry I’d ever met him, developed personal responsibility and had deep unconditional empathy because it was at times a cross to bear, and, just maybe the guy who worked at a brain numb job and regularly drank a 24 case of beer had it figured out…(:
David
I found this on Facebook, and and reposted it, and — it’s getting a lot of loves & likes, so I thought you’d like to see it:
“In order to make a relationship last, you really have to flow with a person as they change. Give them space. My friend always told me about his grandfather who was with his wife for 60 years before she passed. His grandfather said that through all that time, his wife changed so much it felt like he had been with 8 different people by the end. But he said the secret to making it last was that through all those changes, he never suffocated his wife with his own idea of who he expected her to be. Rather he loved, fully, every new woman she became.”
WOW !! 60 years in an enduring, endearing relationship. Would that mean she likewise reciprocated every time he became a, “new,” man ? I often think that I am the only one who is not extended the privilege of change in my relationships. I weary of that imbalance, I embrace changes and growth but my individuality I am supposed to compromise to compliment their newnesses.
I read this on FB but thought it biased: I’d be great to see it a guide for everybody
read what on FB, Jo ? Invisible ink or are ya toyin’ with us… be warned we’re a rough crowd, (:
Hi David .. I was replying and referring to Vicki’s post above 😉
ok, got it now… yes, yes ! It’s not only the princess that dreams of prince charming and forever and ever life long in love mating. That was my dream, still waiting for my lady soul mate to tap me on the shoulder…. (:
The human body replaces all of its atoms every 7 years or so (give or take a few years for absolutely EVERYTHING).
So yeah it makes sense that this grandpa felt as though he had been with eight different people within a single wife throughout sixty years (8×7 years = 56 years)
Guru, all our atoms may be changed every 7 years or so but they are identical, as far as I know. One carbon atom is the same as every other, the same with hydrogen and oxygen. Water is water (but Coke is the real thing). I guess it’s the exact combination of all those atoms and molecules that matters.
Phil
I wish I was made out of Coke. Then maybe I wouldn’t need therapy to get real.
This new page is working GURRRRRRREAT, opens in a flash and posts nearly as fast. I take it , it’s THANKS to Gretchen.
A reworking of , ” A Little Good News,” Covid 19 inspired
HUH ? HAH ! and, AHA… I tripped over, how to post… how muchof my life learning happens, fall over it….
No inspiring words from friend, Jack , ?
David, Maybe you did not hear of Jacks death ? Gretchen
No, I did not know, Gretchen. When ? We never met in person, and though initially irritated by Jack and Patrick, I came to feel a kinship with him and a respect for his steadfastness with respect to his personal thesis. We had frequent email conversations.
David, Jack wrote about it on Sept. 2: https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2020/08/29/this-page-is-for-comments-page-4/#comment-47018
But Jack kept on writing, until on Sept. 16, Bernadette wrote: https://primalinstitute.wordpress.com/2020/08/29/this-page-is-for-comments-page-4/#comment-47203
and it continued for two more days. A lot of us wrote about it.
Larry,
while I only produce the Zoom announcement about being temporarily unmuted in a new screen on the moment I unmute myself, i ended up being blamed for noises that did not come from me at all.
even Barry asking me ‘Margaret when will you finally fix that computer of yours?’, he was actually reacting on long repetitive sounds coming from somebody else using his spacebar to unmute, while accidentally also touching another kay, which indeed causes a continuous noise.
that was not me at all but that actually set off the explosive chain reaction.
i did try to say it had not been me but that did not make much difference. it was not only about my 5 seconds of noise I guess, other feelings played, as the one person who actually gets most upset by background noises actually stood up for me.
i still feel hurt being under attack for a temporary thing that can be irritating at times, for me as well, but that is also a temporary side effect of the only tool enabling me to attend and participate in group.
Margaret
Larry,
I felt like adding some more clarification about the Voice Over assisted working.
it is not I cannot switch it off, that is not complicated at all, it is just I rather do not do so as it puts me in a tricky situation.
for example, it did happen to me in the past that accidentally also the speech, a subfunction of the screenreader Voice over, had been separately been turned off.
so then, when I use the short keys to switch Voice Over back on, it does do so, but says: Voice over back on, speech switched off.’
then I am in trouble, because to fix that there are different options, but for some reason, sometimes a bug in some upgrade, ,the trackpad command gives no result, and I have to go into menus and submenus to switch the speech function of Voice Over back on, which of course I cannot do as there is no way to know where my focus is ending up exactly.
then there still remains the option of completely shutting down the system, but also that without any feedback gets tricky when several applications are being used at that moment, as the computer starts giving pop up screens with warnings and questions and I have no clue as to what it is saying on the screen.
if I start clicking I risk messing up the system more and more.
then even if I can eventually close it and restart, it still is not entirely certain Voice Over will restart with the speech function again switched back on, and I risk messing up the logging in while trying to do so without any control or feedback.
So you see, it is not at all that I cannot turn Voice Over off, but that I rather don’t do it if there is any way to avoid it.
i have thought of some extra command I might try next Sunday when I unmute, to stop the computer voice from rambling on, that command always worked fine, until one of the big updates of the operating system, when suddenly it only functioned on rare occasions.
now last Saturday I had another big upgrade to OSBig Sur, so we will have to wait and see how it responds to my command to shut up when it starts speaking when I don’t want it to. if it works I should be able to stop it even in mid sentence without really changing any of the basic settings.
but you see, all of this is not what I felt like spending time on in group, it should be enough imo I say I have my reasons, but well, maybe that was not the case. ,
the situation reminded me a bit, on hindsight, of my brother hearing me explain over and over why I don’t want to move to assisted living and like staying in my present home for the moment, and then he brings it up again and again and ignores all I have said and does not really respect my decision and judgement.
but well, ok, the dust has been settling and we can move on hopefully.
M
From trying to help you to get on to Zoom group back in the Spring, I understand that there are technical complexities that you have to deal with that would frustrate even a normally sighted person, and how frustrating it would feel for you to have to explain your technical problems over and over again to people who don’t seem to be listening or how frustrating for you that some don’t accept and trust that you are doing the best that you can with trying to quiet your Voice Over Assist entourage .
If you want to test the OSBig Sur upgrade before Sunday and practice telling it to shut up, I could set up a Zoom meeting for you and me and email you the invitation link. You are 7 hours ahead of me, so how about a Zoom meeting this Thursday between 3 and 9 pm your time. I’m tied up after 9:30 pm your time. You choose the hour.
Of course everyone wants to live in their own home for as long as they can. If the person can manage it even with some assistance, my understanding is that research suggests it is in most cases the healthiest option.
Margaret & Larry, good Luck with troubleshooting OS Big Sur! At my work, we are advising students not to get it yet, as there are unsolved compatibility problems with other software the students must use. At least some software vendors have said that compatibility upgrades will not be ready before the new year. This new OS has significant changes, is a major update.
Didn’t they come out with a Highway 1 patch last week to address this?
Below are excerpts from a brilliant review of the film ‘I Am Greta’, which Jonathan Cook says isn’t about climate change — it’s about the elusiveness of sanity in an insane world.
“Erich Fromm, the renowned German-Jewish social psychologist who was forced to flee his homeland in the early 1930s as the Nazis came to power, offered a disturbing insight later in life on the relationship between society and the individual.
In the mid-1950s, his book ‘The Sane Society’ suggested that insanity referred not simply to the failure by specific individuals to adapt to the society they lived in. Rather, society itself could become so pathological, so detached from a normative way of life, that it induced a deep-seated alienation and a form of collective insanity among its members. In modern western societies, where automation and mass consumption betray basic human needs, insanity might not be an aberration but the norm.
Fromm wrote:
The fact that millions of people share the same vices does not make these vices virtues, the fact that they share so many errors does not make the errors to be truths, and the fact that millions of people share the same forms of mental pathology does not make these people sane.
Challenging definition
This is still a very challenging idea to anyone raised on the view that sanity is defined by consensus, that it embraces whatever the mainstream prefers, and that insanity applies only to those living outside those norms. It is a definition that diagnoses the vast majority of us today as insane.”
Jonathan Cook’s Blog, 17 November 2020:
https://www.jonathan-cook.net/blog/2020-11-17/greta-thunberg-film-sanity/
Well put.
That’s very interesting Vicki; it must be a good film. Phil
Vicki, great article by Jonathan Cook! I especially like the “Four forms of insanity the adult world adopts in response to Thunberg” and his statement that “this insanity derives from unexamined fear.” How insightful! Which makes me wonder how many forms of insanity the American population adopts in response to the current political situation, haha!
Reading the quote by Erich Fromm made me think back to my early twenties when I read some of Fromm’s books in German on my quest for “the truth.” Not that I remember much of it, but his concept that a person who appears normal and well-adjusted to society could potentially be mentally sicker than a person who appears not well adjusted and doesn’t fit in, was intriguing to me. I could relate to it, as I had a hard time finding my place in society, still do. Reading his books gave me hope and courage to keep looking for a solution for my dilemma, which then led me to Janov and primal therapy.
Yeah, Bernadette, I thought his writing is particularly intelligent, and I want to see the film about Greta. I had heard once that she has Aspergers, but had forgotten all about that, in the midst of the wonderful things she has said and done. I also read Eric Fromm in college, like friends did back then, but only retained that it had a “good vibe”, like a lot of other things we investigated. Some of what Jonathan Cook says, I have thought for many years, but seldom encounter others who echo those ideas.
Jack, I’m really missing you. And I’m also really angry with you. I don’t know if you remember, but I specifically told you please not to die. But you went ahead and died anyway. I know it wasn’t deliberate. But still. I wish you could come back. The blog is not the same without you.
Larry,
ok, the testing will just take a very brief try, it either works or not and is just one command to try in combination with the unmuting.
will send you an e-mail or whatsapp about the time, thanks, it will also be nice hearing you, briefly as tomorrow my time is limited.
Margaret
I originally liked the music of Peter, Paul & Mary, and was saddened years ago by Mary Travers’ death, but didn’t know the circumstances until recently — she had leukemia, several rounds of chemo, and surgeries, but what killed her was some disease caused by the chemo, when she was 72 yrs. I am reading her book “Mary Travers: A Woman’s Words”, and especially struck by how natural and simple, unpretentious, and honest she writes. I’m really surprised at this, and at how much feeling she shows when she sings — she is passionate about the songs she sings. It has led me to look for more of their music, and one I found was made years ago, but I never heard it before, “Don’t Laugh at Me”. The link below is followed by the lyrics.
I’m a little boy with glasses
The one they call a geek
A little girl who never smiles
‘Cause I have braces on my teeth
And I know how it feels to cry myself to sleep.
I’m that kid on every playground
Who’s always chosen last
A single teenage mother
Tryin’ to overcome my past
You don’t have to be my friend
But is it too much to ask?
Don’t laugh at me
Don’t call me names
Don’t get your pleasure from my pain
In God’s eyes we’re all the same
Someday we’ll all have perfect wings
Don’t laugh at me
I’m the beggar on the corner
You’ve passed me on the street
And I wouldn’t be out here beggin’
If I had enough to eat
And don’t think I don’t notice
That our eyes never meet
Chorus
I’m fat, I’m thin, I’m short, I’m tall
I’m deaf, I’m blind, Hey, aren’t we all?
Well I’m fat, I’m thin, I’m short, I’m tall
I’m deaf, I’m blind, In a way we’re all
I’m black, I’m white, And I am brown
I’m Jewish, I’m Christian, And I’m a Muslim
I’m gay, I’m lesbian, I’m American Indian
I’m very, very young, I’m quite aged
I’m quite well fed, I’m very, very poor
Don’t laugh at me, don’t call me names
Don’t get your pleasure from my pain
In God’s eyes we’re all the same
Someday we’ll all have perfect wings, don’t laugh at me
My country, ’tis of thee, oh, sweet land of liberty
It is of thee, that I sing
OK, time to fess up! I have been hiding out. Let myself spiral down into depression and despair. Into helplessness, powerlessness, wanting to give up and die kind of feelings, what’s the point kind of feelings, and worse, separation and withdrawal, leave me alone, I don’t need anything anymore, and, most definitely, I don’t want to, cannot, give anything type of feelings. What pulled me out finally: Vicki posting the links to the previous page for David, where it all began – thank you Vicki! I read my previous posts and asked myself: who is this woman who wrote all this? This woman who has a voice and an opinion, a vision, a strong belief, an undeterred sense of moving in the right direction, who can express her thoughts and feelings with words and phrases and sentences – a skill that eludes me now? I am in awe of such a woman, because these days, I am in an entirely different place! I am angry, resentful, and worse: jealous and envious and hating myself for it, and brain amputated, not able to find my way out of this mess. I don’t recognize myself.
How did I get here??
I am trying to retrace my emotional steps that I took from “there” to “here” but can’t. Feelings I’ve had over the weekend come to mind; they might point me in the right direction. The conflicting feelings of: I deserve so much more vs But I am not getting it! The resulting helplessness and powerlessness, for not knowing how to get it, or give myself what I deserve. Not entirely believing that I deserve more and better than what I have. Doubting myself, maybe I don’t deserve more after all? Just shut up and be content with crumbs! It is based in an old feeling, obviously! But at least, finally admitting that I need something more, something else, or “something” instead of denying that I need anything. I am an expert in denying my needs! Why admit, even to myself, that I need something when part of me knows that I never will get it? Isn’t that the very thing that creates more pain? Gretchen knows all about this dilemma in me, but nobody else. Until now.
The last feelings that I wrote about on this blog were about my dad. Him not seeing me, not wanting to acknowledge my existence, not taking any interest in me, my thoughts, feelings, talents, needs. See, I must be undeserving! But that can’t be true! I was an innocent child who needed her daddy’s approval and admiration and love! Ha! Like that would ever happen! I am feeling so psychotic right now! Something that I needed soooo badly but knew I would never, ever get. I feel my brain being twisted and jerked around as I’m writing this.
There must be something so horrendously painful and having a long lasting permanent impact on me that when I hit these feelings, I spiral down into oblivion! My brain stops functioning and my entire being wants to give up.
This is a first attempt to counteract this spiraling down. I want to fight this. I want to get through this. I NEED to get through this, or I will spend the rest of my life feeling resentful and jealous and envious of everyone who got what I don’t have and that I so desperately need myself!
I realize that I am making myself utterly vulnerable by posting this. But I just don’t see any other option, if I want to grow and move forward with these feelings. I can’t deal with them in hiding. They have to be voiced and expressed. So, here I go.
Thanks for sharing Bernadette. We’re all wrestling with similar stuff, although of course the details of experience and feeling are unique to each of us. Nevertheless it’s inspiring to hear you acknowledge and try to reverse a destructive pattern that is keeping you from getting anything and is killing you.
Larry, sad to hear that “we all” are wrestling with this type of feelings. I thought I was the only one – just kidding, of course, after all it is only logical that everyone must be at some point in their therapy face these feelings. But honestly, one of the reasons of why I have not been able to express it – apart from it being extremely painful – is because I didn’t think people could relate to this dilemma. Maybe I conveniently have chosen to ignore it when I heard other patients talk about their feelings in this aspect, or I had “the answer” for them, or I was instantly in denial about myself or thought I could “handle” it. Who knows? Truth is, I have handled it, but I am tired of handling it. I want to feel it now and get a resolution!
And I am happy that you are one of “we all” who is getting something precious and valuable out of life these days!
Having almost died while being born must be an added dimension of terror underpinning all of your feelings about life and your primals Bernadette. You are a brave lady to go to those feelings.
When I was 11 months old, my mother found me turning blue in my baby carriage. My parents rushed me to hospital where I was left (abandoned) in an oxygen tent for a week. Never in my decades of primalling have I yet tapped into that specific episode in my life. I’m convinced that what happened is that at 11 months old I realized my parents wouldn’t meet my needs. To protect myself from becoming fully conscious of that, I stopped crying out….I mentally and physiologically suffocated my need. I developed asthma. To this day it is triggered when I’m under emotional duress, and by allergens more so when I’m under emotional duress. Sometimes I experience a rise in my need for my inhaler, for days, weeks, or even months when I’m wrestling with disturbing reality and primals on the rise that cause me much anxiety. After the primal(s), for a while I’m not holding my emotions in check so much, my bronchial tubes feel cleared of stress and I breathe more easily.
I go through those phases of dealing with my anxieties when stirred as I follow through with my desire to get to know my special lady friend and open up to my feelings for her. The process feels risky. In opening up to her, I open up to feelings that have been in me for all of my life, of devastating off-this-planet aloneness. Because she is worth it, I go there. I drag myself through those primals so that I can be with her. If she ever decides she doesn’t want me, I will be devastated. For a while I will feel untethered to Earth, alone in outer space. But so far we want each other, and to enable me to open up to this new special person, to make sure I don’t kill this, I drag myself through the burning coals of those primals. Then healing primal therapy happens, changing my life to an openness and self-confidence I’ve never experienced since I closed down in childhood. I talk to her a bit about my primals because she is curious and asks how I’m feeling and I want her to know that they are an aspect of my life. I’m sure she has no idea though of how being with her is changing my life right to the core, because I’m willing to primal into deadly aloneness to be with her.
Bernadette,
I would love to hear you, even if only from time to time, in sunday’s primal Zoom group!
to me you always come across as a fresh mountain breeze, pure and sincere.
I relate to craving attention and approval, from each one of my parents but in very different ways as a child.
lately I noticed once more how I can be thrown out of balance unexpectedly even when only one person seems to dislike me.
it merely has a temporary effect luckily, unless it comes from someone I really trusted and regarded as a friend.
but still, I am surprised how I was surprised when Gretchen said that if you are yourself there will alwys be someone who does not like you…
it makes sense, but it is telling it wasn’t obvious to me.
it is still sinking in it is ok, I should not win over everyone, someone not liking me does not necessarily mean something must be wrong with me…
and sometimes it is just my fear telling me someone does not like me which is ironic as my defense then tends to make me want to snap and growl at them, show my teeth, like don’t you even think of hurting me, so then I set myself up for not being liked at times…
all complicated, and as you are very good with words and feelings I would love to hear more of you, you sound so genuine.
you might meet my cats in group, they tend to make guest appearances…
Margaret
Margaret, yes, I agree, it takes very little to trigger these deeply hurtful feelings, IF I allow it. I was thinking the same today, as I had a very hurt reaction to my brother’s comment on WhatsApp. I had sent him a song that has been circulating, a Zoom performance of an inspiring song about the current situation that is affecting everyone in the world. The song touched me and brought up some tears, so I sent it to various people. My little brother (stinker!) made a comment that he couldn’t let himself wallow in sentimental feelings like me, and that he keeps himself busy to stay happy. I took it as a criticism and felt really misunderstood and rejected. I thought I was showing a vulnerable side of me by sharing the song, and felt his reply was a slap in the face. It obviously touched on some very deep and painful old pain in me and I let myself cry a few tears. But as you mentioned, it had only a temporary affect on me, as it sometimes happens to you, and after I felt the hurt, I wrote a good reply to him. I said that appreciating a beautiful song is not wallowing in sentimental feelings (=standing my ground) and I only wanted to give him some joy (=pointing out my intent). His reply then was that he did enjoy the song but all he wanted to say was that he didn’t have the same time for such things as I have (which is either an excuse or very sad or both).
But I am inspired by you when you said that you snap and growl and show your teeth. I think it’s necessary at times and shows strength and personal power. On the other hand, of course you have to allow yourself to feel the hurt at some point and connect it to the old pain, which I know you do. Making myself vulnerable to people who don’t like my, I think would feel counterproductive to me. And yet, part of the reason why I can come out with all my deepest scariest feelings is precisely because I don’t need everyone to like me anymore. I have gained some personal power that allows me now to be more vulnerable. I hope that makes sense.
Bernadette,
I hope you can get through these feelings and come out of the downward spiral you’re talking about.
I can relate to a lot of what you said.
For me, when when I seemingly have what I need, big feelings of something being wrong routinely come up anyway. I would like to escape completely from my
pattern. Those thoughts came up after reading your message this morning.
It happened for a few weeks while we were on vacation travelling, but that wasn’t enough. I guess it wouldn’t ever be enough because the problem is inside of me.
Phil
Phil, now you’re making me think, because just very recently I thought about how much in my life has gone right, in fact, I thought at the time that everything happened all exactly the way it was meant to happen. And this seems to be in total contradiction to the other feeling that I have, which is: I didn’t get anything that I wanted! But if I’m honest, even the things I didn’t get happened exactly the way it was meant to be.
So, when you talk about the pattern of “having something that you need in the present bringing up feelings that something is wrong” – I think that is a common primal pattern. From the way I understand this primal concept is that we have to get something in the present that roots and strengthens us in the present, and in turn, this strength and personal power then allows us to make ourselves more vulnerable to face yet deeper and more painful feelings.
Here are my thoughts: The feeling of “something is missing” that can’t be pinpointed, I think must be a very early feeling. So early in life that we were not able to form a mental concept about it. It’s a feeling based in utter physical-emotional need. As I’m writing this, a newborn baby comes to mind, just pushed out of a warm, safe, and comforting environment into the cold, harsh world. And depending on how well your birth process proceeded (in my case I almost died), and how you were received by your mother (mine was irritated and disappointed – yet another girl!) that would make your first impression of this new world either pleasant or painful. And would last an everlasting imprint on the brain.
Being cuddled and comforted and entirely loved all the way around isn’t something that I was ever able to experience. Maybe that is what’s wrong (on top of being ignored by dad). Because in reality, as grown-ups, we are, or should be, able to give ourselves everything that we need. And if we can’t do it and can’t even pinpoint what it is that is missing but we need something, by definition, it must be based in an early unfulfilled need.
But then again, we can’t really give ourselves everything – cuddles and being entirely loved all around we can’t give to ourselves. We need someone to give us the love. Which means making ourselves vulnerable and allowing it to be given.
But enough of my rambling. Let me know your thoughts on this.
Bernadette, you asked me for my thoughts and I posted a reply which disappeared, so I’m trying again. In response to what you said, I can say how it is for me.
Because I still have unfulfilled needs, and other traumas to feel, my pain will continue to come up regardless of what I get or have achieved in the present. That’s because my feelings have been opened up and my primal process is active.
I have a pattern of making changes in my life, then being unsatisfied, and wanting more changes. Even things I do have and stay with, start feeling not enough. It wouldn’t ever be enough, I’m afraid.
Related to this is a feeling many times of being unable to get what I want, of not even being able to get started, feeling stuck. This was the big feeling which brought me to therapy to begin with.
When I’ve gone deep with this, it seems to be birth feelings. I needed help and didn’t get it. When I feel like I get help and have a little success, then I can move through the feelings of being stuck, although they can easily reemerge.
This was an ongoing pattern If my mother was maybe unhelpful for me during birth, she was definitely unhelpful later. There was very little, if anything coming from her, as her illness progressed. She already had it when I was born. Later on, I can say she literally forgot about me completely and couldn’t direct a kind word my way, or actually anything at all. so I gave up trying with her.
My father was more available, and was around my entire childhood, but was also quite unaware and largely unhelpful. I found myself on my own emotionally.
I could write much more on all this, but that’s enough for now.
I hope you’ll stay with us on the blog and not disappear for long periods of time. I like seeing what you have to say, it’s very helpful. I hope you see the value of continuing here.
Phil
Bernadette, what you wrote early this morning, makes me wonder if that is what has happened before, each time you just “disappear” for weeks or months — that’s been a pattern for you, you have said that before, too. I remember I suspected years ago, that after an intense period of involvement and activity, you must just get really ‘down’ for some reason, and lose your way, direction, your will to go on, maybe even who you are. Just the thoughts I had, back then.
Hi Bernadette, I was wondering if your down cycle had anything to do with the additional info I sent you about my neighborhood situation? Just blinking once for ‘yes’ or twice for ‘no’ will tell me everything I need to know here, thanks.
Also, I think Vicki might be onto something about these ups and downs possibly being part of a grander, natural cycle which we shouldn’t judge ourselves too harshly on?
I can go for a week or two of being a chess grandmaster at computer programming and then burn out for the next two solid months, not able to stand the logical rigidity anymore with my brain needing pleasant free association and aimless reverie, plummeting my productiveness.
Guru, I didn’t get your additional information on your neighbors. I was wondering about it because after I returned your initial email, I didn’t receive anything else after. Now I think it must have landed in the spam folder, or I accidentally deleted it with the spam that arrives daily in the swisslady inbox. Sorry!! Please send it again, if you don’t mind, I am still interested.
Yes, Vicki is right about my off and on cycle. I have always been that way, and I am not judging myself for it, nor do I feel that she is judging me for it. As I wrote to Vicki above, I am now ready to do another cycle of cleaning out my primal cesspool. I think it is going to be a particularly nasty bit this time!! And I have caught myself this time before spending too much time in the “off” position. That said, I will not ignore my need for – as you so beautifully put – “pleasant free association and aimless reverie” without which I surely would drown in the cesspool! Yikes!
You didn’t see my mail?? Oh, geez! Yes I originally sent the info only about 24-36 hours after you replied to my first mail. OK, I will try again in a few days. Only this time, I will post here immediately after sending it so you can check your spam folder.
See?? All this time I kept wondering, ‘Why didn’t Bernadette respond? Did I do something wrong? Did I say something creepy? Did I scare the poor gal? Am I too firmly of an outsider to a special coterie she may be in that I am not good enough for?”
All these questions whizzed through my mind…all a variant of, “What exactly went wrong?”
Since you caught my first mail and responded to it, I lowered the chances of your genuinely missing my second mail and took it for something more personal.
These are the hazards of trying to operate on limited information, as I’ve complained about so much in the past.
I remember one time…..a LONG, L-O-N-G time ago…6-7 years ago Vicki was very upset about something on the blog, and I had a critical piece of info she needed to make the terrible feeling she had at the time almost completely dissipate for her in profound relief upon her learning what I knew.
Unfortunately I completely forget what the subject matter was at time, but I do remember successfully resolving the incident to her satisfaction.
Anyway, my point is sometimes we may be lacking some crucial piece of knowledge which can ease ongoing suffering all its own. Too bad it’s difficult to figure out what the missing puzzle piece might be in many cases. (“You can’t know what you don’t know”, etc.)
Guru, I agree! One single word or phrase, or a comment to acknowledge or underline or even oppose for any good reason, can have a huge impact on the reader. I have experienced it myself in this very blog. Just one line someone wrote in response to someone else helped me gain my sanity back; it was not her intention, all she did, was express her opinion, and it fit into my pain perfectly to help relieve it. And you remembered the photo of my dad, which brought up a whole lot of stuff for me, I am glad you remembered it! I have to remind myself that anything I write here could potentially have a great impact on the reader.
Yes you do have that impact Bernadette. It’s all good, so please keep writing whenever you need to. You are good for us.
Larry, you are good for us too 🙂
🙂
Guru, Your questions: “Did I do something wrong? Did I say something creepy? Did I scare the poor gal? Am I too firmly of an outsider to a special coterie she may be in that I am not good enough for?” — as Jack would say, it’s all your feelings! Nothing like this at all. I am not that easily put off and would tell you if I couldn’t help you or couldn’t handle it. That “not good enough” feeling, boy, do I know it! A particularly nasty feeling, but it’s just that: an old feeling! I will be super careful from now on before deleting spam!
Vicki, yes I still have significant trouble with the smoldering internal miasma where the predator is concerned.
Dealing with a man in his fifties screaming at me, threatening me, and insulting me on my own front porch while furiously jumping up and down on my porch floorboards & warping them because I couldn’t park my car in the exact spot he wanted (because of traffic HE caused for HIS OWN COMMERCIAL GAIN!) on top of buying everything around my home, trying to pressure me over years of time to force me out. Numerous other shitty items to tell, etc.
I already talked about how he forced four senior citizens out of their 30 year home next door and demolishing that, didn’t I?
Unfortunately the porch incident was in 2003 and it still leaves me utterly FURIOUS to this day. I dearly wish I had had it taped. I though it was weird how he dropped dead just a few weeks later. Almost 1,000 people went to to his funeral, only seeing the smooth-talking pretty side of him…while I am seemingly the only one seeing the ugly side and screaming “FUCK YOU!” I still scream that to the walls today, never having had the courage to tell him to his face at the time.
The Tenth Commandment of the Bible starts with, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbors house…”
A couple months after that man’s death I was mowing the backyard grass bordering their parking lot (previously the elderly family’s home now pulverized into featureless commercial asphalt). Along the borderline I saw a $10 bill fluttering in the slight breeze, stuck to my fence near the ground….The most money I ever found ‘in the wild’ in my life.
$10 bill…10th commandment symbolism for the spiritually inclined?
Or just desperately reaching mental gymnastics as the atheists would conclude?
I know where the vast majority of this blog stands on such a question, no need to tell me.
It’s just a story and I’m really fucking irritated that I am still traumatized by it.
The $10 bill was in crappy shape, worn and weathered though still spendable. I wish I had kept the bill as a lifetime souvenir, as I didn’t think about any possible Tenth Commandment symbolism until many years after the bill was long gone.
Guru, it might help you to focus on when he was jumping up and down on your porch, warping the floorboards, and what you were feeling at that moment, and write about that, and why you were unable to respond to him, and write what you should have said to him then, if you could have — just write that for yourself, not necessarily here (unless it seems appropriate). Writing what you might have really been willing to say to him, might help you more than raging and venting out loud endlessly now — because something different happened in between the original event, and your fantasy response now. Something stopped you, and that’s more important to uncover.
Thank you, Vicki, I’m too exhausted to say much more now except that it would have been extremely risky, even dangerous, to say to him what I say now (1,058-page explanation). One of my old friends (who knew the man very well) remarked that he was surprised the guy didn’t literally die of a heart attack on my front porch in front of me.
Vicki, good advice to Guru! I agree that looking at what he wished he could have said but were unable to say is very important, and so is exploring the reasons why he couldn’t say it. Over the years, I have been doing a lot of writing for myself, pages and pages of it, and it helps expressing and documenting, even only to myself, the thoughts and feelings and wishes, including all the anger and frustration, agony and pain, and especially fears and anxiety. For me it was the start of expressing some ‘secret’ feelings that I had, next was expressing them to Gretchen, before I could express them in public. Your advice to Guru to write it down first, is thumbs up!
Vicki, you have a good memory and know me well. Excellent observation! Yes, this is exactly what happened a few years ago (4 I think) when I spilled my guts here about my dad and got into very deep feelings about him. And then I disappeared again.
Not sure what exactly happens. I’m sure there are several reasons for it. Maybe I can only go so far before I have to shut down again because of the intensity of the pain, and I can only take so much of it. Not knowing the answers to my pain makes me feel very unsafe and vulnerable, so I internalize it instead of verbalize it. Another reason could be that, in truth, I am not good at letting people close. I suck at it. So it is safer to withdraw and try to figure it out by myself. This works to a certain extent, but then it all has to come out into the open. Didn’t Janov say something along the lines of: Primal pain has to be shared and witnessed before it can heal? I think this is true, even if he didn’t say it (and if he didn’t say it, he should have, haha).
But as I wrote above, I have grown in my personal power over the last three years thanks to a gazillion sessions with Gretchen, so that making myself vulnerable is now backed by a bit more strength and courage that I can hopefully make use of now. I am hell-bent to make it through another mountain – or rather cesspool – of primal pain. Now I remember Gretchen observing how many secrets I had, stuff that I had never revealed in therapy or to anybody before I opened up this time. Everything at its time, I guess!
Regarding your post above about Peter, Paul, and Mary. I knew and liked them before and thought of them as a bit old fashioned but sweet, and their songs had something to say that I could relate to. I like the song you posted. But a few months ago I saw a 2014 documentary on them on PBS (they ran it during one of their pledge drives) and I was impressed. I got sucked in because I was fascinated by their personalities – kind and genuine – but especially by Mary. As you said about her writing, she came across so very genuine, open, relaxed, and emotionally present while singing. I think even P&P made comments about it, how much Mary “made” the group by being so much her true self, held her own as the only female member of the group, and how much impact she had on the audience.
If you like here is the link on YouTube of the documentary.
What a coincidence, Bernadette — I had just ordered that video yesterday! I had no idea it was available online. As more than one person said, “Mary sings with her whole body”. I also wanted to know more about Peter Yarrow’s conviction for for taking “improper liberties” with a 14-year-old girl who went with her 17-year-old sister to Yarrow’s hotel room seeking an autograph. “Yarrow answered the door naked and made sexual advances that stopped short of intercourse.” He pled guilty, and In 1970 served 3 mos. in prison of a 1-3 yrs. sentence. Coincidentally or not, PP&M split up and all went solo in 1970. In 1981 Peter received a pardon from President Jimmy Carter; nonetheless, it has followed him ever since, periodically he is rejected from events and awards, even 50 yrs. later. He also exposed that he has been in an alcoholic recovery program. I would have loved to ask Mary how she felt about what Peter did. I know that they eventually reunited, and performed together regularly. The final four years of Mary’s illness, it was she who kept them singing — she very much wanted to.
Vicki, your reference to Peter Yarrow’s sexual assault and his subsequent conviction and prison sentence, left me thinking about what occurred at the Institute in the early 1990s. When Rick was a therapist. If you, or any other blog readers, were there then, you will likely remember that he decided he wanted a romantic/sexual relationship with one of his clients. Which was an abuse of his power as a therapist, not to mention unethical and illegal. Many clients, including myself, were shocked and outraged to find out that the administration supported and enabled him to do so. And that they allowed him to stay employed at the Institute, as the receptionist. (His mother was a little wishy-washy when it came to setting boundaries with him.)
A few years ago, I reconnected with someone who left the Institute due to these events. They mentioned to me that the client who Rick ended up in a relationship with, later sued the Institute. They did not know the outcome of the lawsuit. They wondered if I knew anything, but I didn’t. Unlike Peter Yarrow, I doubt that Rick was ever convicted of anything or did any time in prison. Sadly. My guess is that it was settled out of court, but I could be wrong. Does anyone here know anything about this?
I only went to LA a few years after that apparently happened, but I did hear a couple of rumors from elder patients corroborating your account, albeit in less detail than you’re providing.
It seems obvious to me that a Primally-oriented therapy would be more prone to intimacy pitfalls which aren’t professionally sanctioned as opposed to a cognitive therapist with a client, for instance.
When two people start to share sensitive lower-brain sensations with each other regularly, I could see how tempting it would be to throw hollow-sounding, sterile, and arbitrary words such as “patient” and “therapist” into a meaningless dustbin in favor of a richer intimacy of the present moment. I’d have to guess this is one of the reasons therapists are admonished not to share too many personal details with patients.
In any case, Rick must not have stayed too long as the receptionist because Atty was already there when I arrived.
Ugg, I’m confused. Are you saying that a Primally-oriented therapy includes something that happens when “two people start to share sensitive lower-brain sensations with each other regularly?” And how does this contribute to healing from childhood traumas, which I think is at the core of a Primally-oriented therapy? When many patients, as well as therapists, come from families where boundaries were either non-existent and/or inappropriate, how helpful is it to have therapists recreate that again in therapy? Doesn’t what you describe simply justify and rationalize all kinds of therapists’ abuses of power (of which Rick Janov’s behavior was just one example)? I don’t get it.
Before I go any further, may I put a much simpler question out of the way first? How come you refer to me as ‘Ugg’? I understand when people use ‘UG’ for ‘Ultimate Guru’, but when you use ‘Ugg’ it almost sounds derogatory, like ‘UGH!’, as though I am a disgusting creature. Is this what you are trying to convey?
Calling you Ugg, allows me to see beyond your often rough and prickly demeanor. It helps me to remember that you also have a soft, warm and fuzzy side, like my Ugg boots. Which helps me feel more connected to you. I don’t see you as a disgusting creature, although I can certainly relate to feeling like a disgusting creature at times.
Renee..the reason I brought up “UGH” is that the letter “g” is immediately precedes the letter “h” in the alphabet, “ugf”..”ugg”…”ugh”…”ugi”…”ugj”….so yeah that’s why your using “ugg” seemed extremely close to “Ugh, something disgusting!”
I am embarrassed to say my fashion sense is in a shambles, and I had never heard of Ugg boots until just now, so I will accept the plausibility of your explanation, thanks for telling me.
Perhaps if I had had an eight or nine-figure settlement for what happened to my mother (a very reasonable demand given her past resume), I would have had more carefree energy for fashion sense instead of constantly worrying about long-term survival.
Renee, now that you’ve answered my question…I will definitely go to work on your questions about Rick…It’s on my priority list alongside the mail I need to send to Bernadette.
**sigh** I just need time and space, will get back to you on this.
Renee, 1) You have converted Peter Yarrow’s conviction for “taking improper liberties with a 14 yr.-old” into “sexual assault”, which usually has a heavier meaning with more aggression and force, up to and including rape. But in this case, the girl said “No”, her older sister witnessed it, and it stopped before intercourse. We still don’t know all the details, it’s still not good, and still makes him untrustworthy, especially with his alcoholism, regardless of his acceptance of blame, and serving time in prison, and being in recovery. But online, what I found calling him a pervert, castigating him and wanting him punished forever, were people who don’t like his political and social activism, so I think they are just using his crime as an excuse and outlet for their hatred.
2) Why are you telling this story about Rick Janov? I heard different versions, way back when, less glaringly sensational than yours, but I never wanted to use the story the way you have. You have some hidden agenda in writing about this, and you are not being honest about that. You are hiding your anger and pretending this story is a real issue you want to alert all of us about. And in a pattern I have seen you repeat, you again avoid writing about your feelings behind this, just as you ran away from your feelings in groups, in the past. For a practicing therapist, you really need to have the guts for your own therapy, and to write about your own feelings and real problems, instead of what you’re doing.
Vicki, I love that “Mary sings with her whole body” – so true! I didn’t know about Yarrow’s “improper liberties” – very disappointing to say the least! What a creep! At least he had the decency to plead guilty and I am glad he went to prison for it. Knowing this now, I don’t think it was a coincidence that the group split up around that time. And yes, I would be also very curious what Mary felt about it. Let me know what you think about the documentary!
Bernadette, I loved the documentary online, altho I haven’t yet watched the DVD, which is supposed to have more songs. I did have a reaction to your comment “What a creep!” because I can’t see it that way easily. I would have to meet him, and see if he felt creepy — I have had that experience, so I know how “creeped-out” feels to me. He not only pled guilty, went to prison, and rehab for his alcoholism, but for 50 yrs. he has been rejected for some appearances and awards, and he has just accepted it, in his responses. I don’t know how deep that goes for him, but I would want to give him a chance to have redeemed himself, even while I would want to be careful.
It is interesting that other crimes don’t seem to get as much lasting condemnation, as crimes related to sex. I am by no means in favor of “opening doors to predators”, but I also don’t assume that everyone “caught” is forever a “predator”, regardless of their efforts to live differently. I would have liked to have a conversation with him, and see what he says about the whole thing, if he makes any excuses or what. I don’t believe Mary would have rejoined the group, if she didn’t like Peter and the kind of person he was. I don’t think Paul would have, either.
Vicki, my comment “what a creep” was mostly directed at Yarrow at the time of his transgression, and in part was a gut reaction in response to my old feelings that got activated (being a survivor of child sexual abuse myself). When I saw him on PBS supporting the pledge drive, I didn’t know about this and didn’t get a creepy feeling from him, the opposite was true, I thought of him as kind and feeling full. But when I read what you wrote, I was disappointed in him, and I also doubted my judgment, because I had judged him as kind and feeling full and thought I should have picked up that sex offender creepiness. Now I think, the fact that I didn’t, probably means that he must have changed over the years, after doing time in prison and rehab and taking the rejection from the public for such a long time. I agree with you that Paul and especially Mary would not have reunited the group, if he had not changed. If I had the chance to meet him in person, I probably would be a bit careful and wary of him. But I also would be open to find out if he has genuinely changed.
I don’t know why sex crimes have such a long lasting impact on people. Though that doesn’t seem to be the same for everyone. When I think about Biden and his attack on Tara Read – I happen to believe her that *something* happened – everyone seems to forget about it and give him the benefit of the doubt or forgive him, etc. I had to cringe really hard when I marked Biden for the presidency on the ballot. I could only allow myself to vote for him because Trump is so much worse in so many ways and is truly dangerous for the safety of the country and democracy. Biden always evokes a bit of a creepy feeling in me, and that was even before I knew about Read’s allegations. He was definitely not my first choice for the presidency, just to say.
I do not know about the Tara Read thing, I will have to look it up. Thanks.
There is a good interview with Megyn Kelly on YouTube, fi you are interested
In addition, I must say though, reading this brought up some yucky feelings and memories for me. I wish my high school teacher who took advantage of gullible me would have gone to prison for his sexual advances that also stopped short of intercourse! What a bastard he was! And I learned much later, that I was not his only victim. Apparently, he had his “favorites” in every class, year after year. And what’s worse, I believe that his superiors and colleagues knew about it, and nobody did a thing about it. It still makes me angry!
Bernadette, that really is awful! If it’s not too much to say, how did you stop him, or get out of the situation? He really needed his actions exposed.
Vicki, it stopped after I left high school. He pursued me for a while when I was in college but because I felt stronger there and was not under his daily influence as I was in HS, I was able to tell him not to come see me anymore. He then disappeared out of my life. Not until 2010 when I lived in Switzerland for a while and I noticed him at the public swimming pool. I recognized his facial profile as he was swimming his laps. I thought about going over and telling him what I thought of him all these decades later, but then decided against it. He looked old and vulnerable. He died a few years later, around the same time as my dad, and I actually went to his grave and told him in a loud voice that what he did was fucked up, and that I hoped he would see and regret it now. It was important to me to tell him.
One of the things I have lamented this year and before, are the vast beliefs in conspiracies and general-purpose lies that “our President” has fostered and incited world-wide, in striving to dominate. Abbie Richards, a 24 yr. old climate-science master’s student, analyzed currently-in-vogue conspiracies, and created a Conspiracy Chart, which I find illuminating the spectrum of “reality” from connected to disconnected. She intends to keep updating her Chart.
https://www.webworm.co/p/i-talk-to-the-creator-of-the-conspiracy
Vicki, what really astounds me is that Trump supporters seem to believe whatever Trump says, a lot of which is conspiracy stuff or just outright lies. So they believe he won the election and that his victory was taken away by fraud. And I guess they believe many of the other crazy things Trump says. He was preparing way before the election for this claim about fraud, and for ways to make sure he’d win regardless of the outcome. It’s all so outrageous. The day Trump leaves as president will be a day to celebrate.
Phil
Phil, I have also read more than once, and a friend told me she heard it from a nurse — that some Trump supporters have Covid, are on oxygen and dying in hospital, and still don’t believe they have Covid. They believe it’s a hoax, and die gasping for breath, but continuing to believe Covid doesn’t exist. I think these must all be religious people who already have a history of fervently-held delusion, so “belief in Trump” is another plausible insanity for them.
With the margin of “victory” so small — 72 million still voted for the Liar-in-Chief! — I have grave doubts about how effective Biden’s presidency can be (he will try). McConnell and others, and the right-wing dominated Supreme Court, I am afraid will do all they can to prevent Biden from accomplishing “anything”. Many Repubs are really that craven for power, lacking integrity, racist, and destructive of democracy. They have lost the ability to feel how painful life is for the millions who are not wealthy, and they no longer care about any except themselves. They are deluded about the damage our overpopulation of the planet has wrought, and humans are well on their way heading into an extinction event.
Vicki, I am familiar with that South Dakota nurse’s story and a lot of people are questioning her account since her colleagues weren’t independently witnessing similar occurrences: https://www.wired.com/story/are-covid-patients-gasping-it-isnt-real-as-they-die/
Vicki, I don’t think Biden will be able to do big things, even if the dems get the senate majority by winning those two seats in Georgia. What he can do is reverse many of Trumps bad policies and decisions. I don’t think there will be any green new deal or public health insurance option, however. And Trump could try again and win in 2024, I’m afraid. It’s great to be getting rid of him for now, hopefully, but conditions are still quite discouraging.
Today we went for a bike ride and I noticed a new flag at a neighbor’s house, replacing the Trump portrait flag which was there. It’s an American flag with a blue stripe in the middle. I looked up and learned that flag is meant to honor law enforcement, but has now become a symbol of resistance to the Black Lives Matter movement. It’s the first time I noticed that type flag. The country is just so divided with so much animosity. I hope people will give Biden a chance to do something about that, but it will be very difficult when Trump and his supporters will still be around. It would be nice to have a good option for leaving planet, or maybe some aliens from outer space can save us.
Phil
Phil, did you see the post about Portland, that a group of white anarchists are co-opting the BLM protests, with violent, destructive results. It was in the L.A. Times, with the head of Portland’s Black Lives Matter chapter saying that “the activists had nothing to do with the social justice movement”, and in the minds of the public, anarchists have “melded with Black Lives Matter, but they’re 90% white and they don’t reach out to Black organizations.” She says her volunteers are giving out food, not smashing windows. So BLM wants to separate from the violence and those who will only damage their cause. Hopefully this distinction will become clearer, so BLM does not continue to be maligned.
https://www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2020-11-16/portland-protests-anarchists-backlash
Vicki, I never followed closely reporting on events in Portland. I didn’t realize how much anarchists have melded with the Black Lives Matter movement, with negative results. I don’t think anarchists are that active in other large cities around the country. I know there was a lot of vandalism and looting that didn’t necessarily have any connection to anarchy.
People are trying to figure out why the dems didn’t do as well as expected, and why polling was so wrong.
Trump clearly has charisma, even though it’s foreign to me. It’s negative, designed to benefit himself. Biden might end up being a good president, but he isn’t very charismatic. I don’t need that, but maybe that’s what many people need to inspire them to vote. Obama had it.
The very high election turn out I think was mainly about Trump, either for or against.
What I want is sane leaders who try to help us make progress with important issues like climate change, Covid, healthcare, racism, etc.
Phil
We were finally able to make the decision here that our sons will be coming for Thanksgiving, after a lot of thinking on it. But they’ve agreed not to spend indoor time with their friends. One said he would not spend the whole weekend, in that case, which is fine. We’ve seen him quite a few times in past weeks and so I saw no reason not to for the holiday. Our other son works at a university where everyone gets tested once a week.
None of this insures we won’t get Covid, of course. Our sons are glad about this, but to begin with my wife was leaning towards having no gathering. I think we’ve made a good compromise. Our numbers are still pretty low here and our gathering will be small.
Phil
Phil
Hi Phil Phil, are you going to come back to the blog for a ‘refill’?
Guru, yes, definitely. And it reminds me that around here I sometimes see signs saying “clean fill available”, and think we should put up that same sign.
Phil, I hope that you and your family can keep yourselves healthy. Enjoy the family time!
Silvia, I was thinking of you the other day when I watched the documentary below. You mentioned a while back that you didn’t believe in many stories in the Bible and I said they were just parables and not to be taken literally. Here is a documentary that shows an interesting alternative about the Exodus based on scientific and archeological evidence. I thought you might be interested just for kicks.
Hi, Bernadette, I just saw this, sometimes I don’t get notifications of posts. Thank you for thinking of me. I will watch it tomorrow.
I just wanted to say something about the Mary Travers discussion you and Vicki were having. I was quite taken with the group when I was a teenager. I thought it was great that Mary really seemed to be the leader. I loved the group’s albums. “Peter, Paul and Mary”, what a delightful trio. As I watched them perform on the family tv, my mom said, “She’s a whore!,” meaning Mary. I didn’t know if it was true or not, and I doubt she knew if there was any prostitution in Mary’s background. I could not listen to anymore of their songs without the disapproval words of my mom ringing in my consciousness. I really didn’t care if it was true at all, but those poisoned words were forever coupled in my mind with admiration of their music.
Years and years later, at a small Christmas gathering, my uncle received an album of “The Village People,” from my brother and his wife. He had told all of us before that he loved their music. My uncle was a macho guy and we all knew that he didn’t know that the group was gay. When he unwrapped the gift and was so happy to get the album…yes, my mom said, “You know they are gay.” I don’t think he ever played that record or enjoyed the group’s songs after that.
So, just a cheery note before the holidays. A toast to bubble-busters.
S
Sylvia, that’s horrible! Makes me so angry at your mom, for peddling such vicious lies about Mary Travers! What pleasure could she get, except knowing she hurt you? That is not an action of love. Especially if you weren’t able to fight it off, and enjoy the music! Your mom must have beern so angry, she bitterly derived happiness from ruining other people’s enjoyment of life! Oh, my god! And why else could she want to hurt your uncle. I am sorry she just chronically wanted to hurt you — and kind of amazed if you weren’t angry at her doing that, and making you more miserable. My mom hurt me in some similar ways, and tho I felt hurt, I also felt angry a lot, and fought back. I hope you did too.
I’m not sure she deliberately set out to hurt me, though she knew I liked the group very much. I was used to her calling things as she saw them despite how it affected anyone. I was looking up some of the early critics of Peter, Paul and Mary and they were dubbed as two Jews and a Hooker, though that was untrue, but haters will be haters. I think my response to my mom’s ways was that I became accepting of everyone and didn’t discriminate like she did. But it did make me mad when she said the Beatles had no talent. I defended them noting the poetry in their songs, but I knew I could never persuade her of anything. That she got some joy from ruining my uncle’s Christmas, well, we said, “how could you”, she just laughed a tiny bit–she just couldn’t resist. He was kind of a blow-hard ex-cop and probably felt he deserved it. I’m not sure, I felt bad for him anyways that his big sister would do that.
As to Guru’s mention of sadomasochistic pleasure, yes, I figure it was an act-out for sure from the pain my mom grew up with. Her early loss of a parent and violence, cruelty and poverty shaped her outlook and her suspicion of people. Ours was not a quiet household to grow up in. None of us kids can get together without talking about how strange mom was, and how scared we were of her sometimes.
S
Yes, just as I had mentioned to Bernadette about how critical pieces of information can relieve suffering, they can also CREATE suffering as illustrated by Sylvia’s mom. Is there a subtle sadomasochistic undercurrent of pleasure when bursting bubbles like that? If I want the real truth at the deepest levels about something no matter how much it hurts, I should seek out people who enjoyed popping birthday balloons or popping mail package bubble wrap as kids.
The group Peter, Paul, and Mary was significant for me too as a teenager. Some of their songs help me with feelings because of my history with them, and just because they were good songs which felt meaning full to me. I remember I got a new record player for Christmas one year and my sister gave me a Peter, Paul, and Mary album. She was actually leaving on a jet plane herself, which was very sad and difficult for me, not to return for several years.
Phil
“Meaningful”, not meaning full, in my last comment.
Thanks, Bernadette, I finished watching the “Exodus” video. That’s interesting how Pharaoh interpreted the dying of first-born Egyptians sons as a sign that he should let “The people go.” Guilty conscious there. And that the parting of the Red Sea (Reed Sea) was coincidentally a coming together of geological events of a sliding lake and river colliding to raise enough land for the Chosen people to escape the Pharaoh’s soldiers and then a resulting cataclysmic tsunami covering the Egyptian pursuers–just like in the movie. That’s must be an example the universe’s synchronicity for sure, I think. Wonderful timing. The water turning to blood as an oxidation rust process, the locust and other plagues all scientifically explained. Good to know the researchers did good investigations. It was a good video. Thank you.
S
Silvia, I’m glad you enjoyed the video. I think the dying of the first-born sons was the straw that broke the camel’s back after the Egyptians experienced all the other plagues that came before. The Pharaoh had to surrender, finally,. I marvel at the scientific evidence that was discovered. The miracles that a believer takes on faith, now actually have some real basis. Maybe all synchronicities in our lives could be called miracles?
Mary was in a lot of debt because she had to rob Peter to pay Paul.
We were very into folk music at my house for awhile, due to my sister’s influence. She basically became a pot smoking hippie. I remember I smoked some at our kitchen table for the first time, my father too, I was only about 12 years old. But, that was a one time family event.. There was a much different environment, of course, then there is now around all this.
Phil
Still more rumors about Mary–ha, ha. funny, though.
I wrote that while chuckling, yes, but I would rewrite it now as ‘Mary was in a lot of debt, for…’ or ‘Mary was in a lot of debt since…’
I would throw out the word ‘because’ for quality improvement.
It’s becoming clear to me now that I often correct my grammar here on the blog as a carryover effect from the constant, mercilessly unyielding precision demanded by the little software programs I develop.
Humans are a little more forgiving than that, for the most part.
You’re right, no need to correct with us here, I think. I do that too, think, oh I could have said that so much clearer. It’s usually my fear of coming across as unsophisticated or stupid, though. Depends how tired I am at the moment of writing whether or not I can make myself clear and succinct, and without spelling errors.
i am ranting loudly at the computer and most likely driving b crazy, since i have no soundproofing in my bedroom. my fingers are numb and hit the wrong keys a lot and i hate the people i
work with and i hate this job, and as i told b yesterday while driving around, i am pretty much disappointed in Life. she wanted to drive around and see anything interesting and get some
exercise,and she didn’t even have to say a word to me, but i laid a bunch of crap feelings on her anyways, since i was impossibly silent in group again. driving around, without the dog,
looking for new things to see, and we went south towards playa del rey, to find some place to walk where there was no people with their droplets of covid hanging in the air, that just want
to kill the 2 of us thereby dooming all these frigging cats to starving orphanism. too many people there, at the lake in playa, where many years before, we had released 2 ducks we had
raised, because the 3rd one had gotten ravaged by a possum the night before in our backyard. the same lake where i had noticed a rowboat 30 years ago, and had thought in vain how i could
get our young kids involved in something, my oldest the most, since he had gotten hooked on drugs and alcohol a while earlier. the same lake where someone had gotten married years back,
maybe it was warren and janet, just dont remember. anyway, to make a long story short, we got as far as the sewage plant at dockweiler, so i wanted to get the fuck out of their, did not want
to continue on to manhatten beach to see more happier-than-shit people dining outdoors in all the cute restaurants, when i haven’t been happy since 1968, so i turned left on a road with no
uturns allowed and we ended up in inglewood near the airport, and i hate the ugliness of that area. so somehow finally got back to culver city, by marina del rey, where we lived a year or
two, raising our children, barely, and driving all over there was so sickening to me, since so much had gone wrong there, trying to eak out a living and trying to raise happy kids in vain.
so sickening, so drastically horrible was that time of our lives, and to tell the truth, not much better before or after. so it was impossible to not tell b how horrible i felt seeing that
whole area where we had lived, and she listened, i don’t know why she listened, i was very very depressing. so, i address this to nobody in particular. although my poor grandmother used to
talk to herself and god. and i am being frivolous, or in all events, assholish by mentioning her, because i did have some connection with her, although it was impossible to have much of a
connection with her. maybe a little more than just watching gomer pyle together on tv. who knows, it is so long ago, but this shit makes me tear up anyways.back to work.just an exercise in
releasing a tiny smidgen of the rock-solid pain i am embroiled in.
Thanks for sharing, Otto.
sorry if i offend by saying inglewood is ugly. it is ugly to ME, as is that whole stretch of cities that were destroyed by the 405. santa monica is also ugly to me. in fact, all i see is ugly and scary, except my house and backyard, which are probably ugly to anyone who ever sees it.
Larry,
in response to your post on November 22: Your experience when you were only a 11 months old baby, realizing that your needs wouldn’t be fulfilled and you suffocated your needs and developed asthma – it sounds extremely painful! Thanks for explaining the connection between the emotional triggers in the present bringing up an asthma attack. It makes so much sense! You are extremely brave facing your feelings of “devastating off-this-planet aloneness” over and over again in order to give yourself the chance to have a fulfilled life with this special person. It is so satisfying to hear you say that your life is changing, that you have access to “an openness and self-confidence” that you have not experienced before. You deserve it! And it gives me hope.
You might think this is crazy, but for me, the feelings of dying are easier to feel than the feelings of needing and not getting. I have gone there many times, to the point of experiencing the giving up and dying, and I know now that I am not going to die, in the feeling anyway, and not yet in reality. But allowing to feel an unfulfilled need and the desperate attempt to fill a hole inside so that I can live with contentment and fulfillment, I find it extremely difficult to feel. I don’t even know where to start.
My obvious physical symptoms are (more or less) chronic pains in my spine, shoulders, and especially neck, often resulting in headaches. I have scoliosis, and a chiropractor once told me that I was born with these injuries. I know this because I have felt many times my birth process, when I was stuck, lodged in, my mother pushing but not opening up and my neck and spine getting crunched up. I had to be pulled out with forceps.
In the feeling, I know that I am very close to dying. The birth process all starts normally, I participate in the labor process, rhythmically moving and stopping when the impulse comes, and the feeling of a normal collaboration between mother and fetus occurs for a while, but then I get lodged in and can’t move forward. Then comes the time when I realize I am stuck and desperately struggle to move forward but can’t, until I have no more strength left and then I give up. At the same time I am being pushed but being stuck, my neck, shoulders, and spine get crushed. I sense my mom’s helplessness, powerlessness, and hopelessness, not being able to help me out, and my sense of abandonment is immense! There is a total disconnect.
When I am under any type of stress now, emotionally or mentally, the physical pain gets worse. The more stress, the more pain. And since I hate taking pain killers, I had to find other ways to manage the physical pain. Yoga helps and conscious relaxation and meditation. When I need to do something that requires any type of effort, the pain arrives with it. It’s very hard to handle and no wonder I want to give up and die when life gets tough.
But enough said for now.
Oh, I just realized that the birth pattern of “doing everything until I am exhausted and then giving up and not doing anything” – well, that’s very often my pattern in life. I’m either all in, or all out. Like with the blog, ha! I have never been able to pace myself in a healthy way. When I am in the “doing” phase, I can’t do enough, I can’t stop, I keep going like an Energizer Bunny, I constantly feel that I am running behind, there is not enough time to do everything I want to do, etc., this until I crash, and then I am dead to the world! At least now that I am more aware, this is something I can observe and maybe make some healthy adjustments….
Phil, in response to your post on November 22: I have lost some blog posts before as well, it can be frustrating, so I appreciate that you reposted! I appreciate your thoughts – and thank you for encouraging me to keep writing.
I can relate to so many things you wrote. I hear you and I’m with you on the feelings of needing help and feeling stuck and it being related to the birth process (see my posts to Larry above regarding my birth). My mother couldn’t help me either during the birth process, like yours, though the difference is, although I wouldn’t call my mother a cuddly and emotionally accessible mom, at least she was there and helped me a lot during my life. I learned a lot of good things from her, and although she had her weaknesses, I also see her as having had enormous strength, courage, and perseverance. I am sad that your mother was not available for you, it sounds like such a huge loss. Do you think it would help you to write about specific memories?
Like you, I also have frequently made changes in my life, and still want something else, or more. On one hand I think that is normal and healthy, that we want to grow and experience more things in life, improve our circumstances. But for me there is also a need to “arrive” like come to a point where I am content and relaxed and free from constantly wanting/needing something more. I have said many times, I am happiest when I don’t need anything. I want to achieve such a state, but the very desire to want to achieve a state of contentment creates the struggle. What a dilemma! A therapist once told me that life is trying new things, and when we are tired of one thing, try another thing, etc. But I actually disagree with that view. I see a futility in this process, a never-ending search for “something” that seems to be an old feeling in itself. Surely, there must be an arrival point? Of course there is a difference whether I start something new out of curiosity, in an attempt to build up on what I already have and appreciate, or in contrast, whether I run from one unfulfilled moment to another desperately trying to find some fulfillment. I hope that makes sense. What do you think?
To your feeling of “feeling on my own emotionally” – I totally understand, I’m there a lot. And that in spite of being married for years, and a part in me expects or desires that my husband is my closest confidant and most trusted person. He is to a certain extent, but very often, I am not able to completely open up to him, I often keep my deepest feelings to myself. This pattern is becoming more clear these days, and I realize how destructive this is for the relationship, and that keeping certain feelings from him could potentially sabotage our relationship. I am aware that it is my responsibility to make steps to bridge that separateness.
Now I am wondering whether bridging this separateness and achieving emotional togetherness would fill some of the constant need for something new or else? Hmmm…. Because deep down I think life should not be that difficult, it should be simple, we should be content and satisfied inside, a state that surely we can only achieve with emotional connections rather than material things. Let me know your thoughts.
Bernadette, what I said about “feeling on my own emotionally” in my previous comment, was about childhood experiences. That’s what I had in mind, but the pattern certainly exists for me as an adult. For the most part, I can’t and don’t share my deepest feelings with my wife. It’s unfortunate, but to expect that kind of sharing would probably be unreasonable. Our relationship was originally based on having good times together and enjoying each others company, and not on sharing deep feelings. Maybe that’s one reason why we sometimes have problems. If I would have been looking for that kind of partner, maybe I would still be alone to this day. My deepest feelings are sometimes too negative and painful to expect anyone to relate to them.. My relationship with my wife started out with the necessity of hiding them. I do, at times mention my deepest feelings, primal stuff, but the truth is, she isn’t really ready or able to hear it all, understand, and relate to it.
Yes, I think it’s different to be trying new things out of curiosity, as compared to running around desperately looking for fulfillment. It’s good to have curiosity and openness to new things, I think.
It’s good your mother was there and helped you a lot during your life.
In my case, negative feelings and memories are mainly what come up around my mother.
During the last years of her life, when she was sick and in a nursing home, that was especially true. She went there when I was 6 and she was there until she passed away when I was 11. We visited many times and what I remember is she almost never remembered, acknowledged, or even spoke to me, which was very painful for me. That behavior had already started while she was still at home with us, and I think it wasn’t only because of her MS illness.
On the positive side, a quality I associate with my mother is an emphasis on doing well in school. Long after she was gone, I rebelled against that as a teenager. Later on, however, I became a good student and finished a graduate degree. Another memory I have is having the opportunity to learn to play the violin, when I was in first grade. I felt special being among the small group of kids given the chance. I very soon found practicing the instrument to be boring and tedious. I wanted to be outside running around playing. My mother very much wanted me to learn the instrument. She was a good pianist herself, but I don’t ever remember hearing play. We had a piano which took up a lot of space in our small living room. I rebelled against learning the violin, and quickly gave it up. But that was a shame, because I’ve always loved music, maybe I got that from my mother. I’m learning now how to play the saxophone and having a lot of fun, and getting satisfaction from that.
Phil
JESUS H.C. SOMETHING IS HORRIBLY WRONG! I am in a good mood, for however long that lasts. either talking about my pain, but definitely it is my birth month, sagitarius, and i wish the f that that light-hearted and outgoing personality had not been tortured out of me at such an early age, and then year after year.
Otto, glad to hear that you are in a good mood – enjoy!! My mom was Sagittarius; her light-hearted and outgoing personality was buried under a lot of grief and pain but occasionally came through. I’m sure it’s somewhere in you, waiting to erupt.
I related to your lousy feelings you wrote about on the 23rd when you looked back on your life. I get that way sometimes. I’m glad you were able to write them down here, and even better, that you were able to tell b your feelings. My experience is that even though it looks all negative at times, when looking at it from a different angle, there a many positive things in it as well. Just a hint for the future, Playa del Rey is always crowded on the weekends, I usually avoid it, although during the week it’s wonderful; we bike there often.
Otto, I meant to post it here but the Gremlins, repositioned it. Barry once told me when I reported feeling ok at a session, ” Don’t worry, you’ll feel bad again.” (:
ha Sagittarius Otto,
that is good to hear!
hope it will linger the whole Sagittarius month and more, and in any case, when moments come you feel down again, you can remind yourself that will not go on forever and forever without any hope for relief.
as Barry said, all feelings are temporary, and I say no one feels ‘happy’ all the time, making the best of things seems more within our reach, while waiting for better times.
so often it is little things, stroking a cat, or a cat doing something that makes you smile, or some sunshine or a cup of chocolate milk, that breaks through doom and gloom and lets some light ito the dark…
and other people we feel ok with also help, by sharing with them or by laughing together about what sucks…
i am feeling physically better, throat not sore anymore, but now my brother has a cold, and feels ill, let’s hope he feels better by Sunday when our mom becomes 90 and we planned a nice birthday celebration with her!
M and cats
Margaret, well said indeed! Happy birthday to your mom!!
Here’s a really interesting article:
“We have known for decades that mothers’ bodies and brains are transformed by the dramatic hormonal changes of pregnancy and childbirth. Now, new research is showing that men are also biologically transformed by the experience of becoming an involved father.
When women become mothers, levels of the hormones oestrogen, progesterone and prolactin increase throughout pregnancy. Hormones have their biological effects by binding to receptors – molecules that sense the hormonal signal – throughout the body, and they can influence behaviour through binding to receptors in the brain. Oestrogen increases the brain’s capacity to detect another major hormone, oxytocin, and the massive release of oxytocin at birth, coupled with repeated pulses of oxytocin during breastfeeding, helps mothers bond with and want to care for their infants.
But what about fathers? How do they get prepared to parent?….”
https://aeon.co/essays/how-raising-children-can-change-a-fathers-brain?fbclid=IwAR21sjAhhLocMsaLHUfN0T-hQvSdQFp4oeB3IHw3q7RBi7_6GN3yTJsVgjo
There’s good news for me here since I was an involved parent. Bad news too:
“Pups with more affectionate mothers have more oxytocin receptors. This might in fact be the mechanism for the transmission of parental caregiving styles from one generation to the next.” I think I missed out on this.
Phil
My mother didn’t lick me any, I’m pretty sure. I had a dog that licked me a lot, I wonder if that counts.
Phil, I really found that interesting, I was in a hurry earlier, and want to read it again. Clearly that played a part in my life.
Phil, good article.
I suspect that my father must have activated his anterior cingulate to the max when listening to my crying, hence his negative emotional response to me. Reading that this ‘empathic overarousal’ indicates that my crying must have stressed him out and in turn interfered with his motivation and ability to deliver compassionate care, almost makes me feel guilty and almost makes me feel sorry for him. Maybe there is an optimal state of arousal and degree of empathy in some fathers, but in the case of mine, the pendulum definitely swung more to the side of overarousal and personal distress.
In the last paragraph, the author writes: “Our prefrontal cortex (“larger than expected for our brain size”) is what allows us to override ancient, evolved impulses in the service of honouring commitments, abiding by social norms, and exercising our moral responsibilities.” I wonder whether there is a study that shows a smaller prefrontal cortex in men who frequently step over the boundaries of social norms and moral responsibilities, such as testosterone driven rape and child sexual abuse. I just wonder.
Thanks for an interesting read.
OK Bernadette, I just now sent you the mail I promised to re-send. I forwarded the old mail I sent from November 1st. I said I would alert you when I sent this new mail so you can check your spam folder. You might want to set my email as an ‘allowed address’ (whitelist) to avoid further mishaps.
I will tackle Renee’s questions soon enough, though I must admit I thought I had made myself reasonably clear on the topic and I know almost nothing about the Rick story…so all that remain are suppositions on my part which could be wildly inaccurate.
Vicki seemed to cover much more hard-hitting and pertinent ground than I could, but I will still entertain Renee’s questions as soon as I can if it’s still necessary.
Guru, I received your email and attached photo. I need a couple of days to read and think it through before I reply. Cheers!
I’ve been a smoldering cauldron of rage because of this asshole most of the entire day today. My productivity has been mostly destroyed and I am left shouting “FUCK YOU!” to the walls at a ghost from 2003.
I’m having serious anger problems I can’t seem to resolve because of this.
OK, I just finished begging them to turn off their spotlights so my kitchen and backyard aren’t lit up to Kingdom Come.
It’s a terrible trigger on top of the traffic detritus.
My anger has lessened a bit now that an employee has turned the lights off.
I can rest now.
Hi Guru, that was good! asking them to turn off the lights shows that you mean business. It’s a reasonable request. It also means that you are taking care of your needs rather than smoldering in rage.
Vicki, I don’t think it benefits us women to use a phrase like “taking improper liberties”, which minimizes the crime, violence (physical and/or psychological) and trauma of sexual assault. My understanding of sexual assault is that it falls into 3 main categories: penetration crimes of a body part by another body part (i.e., penis penetration into mouth, anus, vagina) or of a body part by an object; contact with genitals, breast, butts, or other intimate body parts; exposure of genitals, breast, butts or other intimate body parts. From what you’ve described, it sounds like Yarrow’s behavior fits the exposure category.
I brought up what happened with Rick Janov because I think it is so much easier to focus on the awful things that celebrities do, than reflect on what has happened “in our own back yard”, so to speak. I don’t think that what I shared was “glaringly sensational”, btw. I deliberately did not share the details of what I heard transpired at that time. Are you saying that the details you shared about Peter Yarrow behavior wasn’t “glaringly sensational”? If so, I would disagree. And anyway, how do you decide what is “glaringly sensational” and what is simply the brutal and cruel facts of a sexual assault? I would suggest that this happens in the minds of us beholders for our own personal reasons, which are sometimes complicated and often painful.
As for the rest of what you say to me, I actually can’t connect with any of it. It sounds like you are angry with me and are letting me know this by trying to shame me. This makes me feel sad. I grew up with a lot of shaming. I’d like to be spoken to in a more respectful way.
Renee 1) I don’t agree with your first sentence, nor the rest of the paragraph. It just seems like you’re using a broadly sensational paintbrush to bolster your judgement, which still seems to go way beyond reality in using Peter. But it’s really just to set us up for your use of Rick.
2) I don’t believe you wrote about Rick for the reasons you are pretending. You have a secret agenda, that you haven’t the courage to expose about yourself. I don’t buy into “your story”. It does make me angry when I see you are lying about your motivations. The rest of your words are like manure you are spreading around, trying to leaven the ground, so your manipulation can gain traction and grow. And you cannot get respect with such dishonesty.
I did not feel comfortable either with the story about Rick being described here in such a strongly disapproving way.
after all, what do we really know about it, and to what point do the guidelines prevail if it is a case of a feeling of genuine true love from both sides?
If I recall my own knowledge of what I have heard, it was thoroughly evaluated and he was put before the choice of ending his professional practice as a therapist and continue the relationship or ending the relationship and remaining a therapist.
the love must have been deep as the first choice was been made, and in that case, if others of the team evaluate as objectively as possible and the persons involved are all capable of making a well considered personal decision, I don’t see a real problem.
it cannot become a therapists regular attitude when such sacrifice is being demanded, as to start with, the person would not be a therapist anymore…
and if the love is genuine, what is so bad about that?
of course deontology is a good thing, but maybe not that good if it would be carved in stone as to reject and keep judging someone like Rick in this case, specially not by using terms as sexual assault in the process!
I am not taking any side as I know little to nothing about the story, but well, just my common sense opinion and trust of those people’s I know common sense and sincerity in directing their staff and workplace.
Margaret
Margaret, yeah your thoughts are similar to my own given we are both ‘limited knowledge’ people to to this story. I felt certain there was a ‘slippery slope’ from a strict client/therapist relationship, a rapport was built, one thing led to another, and a budding relationship ensued. The imagery that Renee originally put forth made it almost seem as though Rick walked into a room with a client, closed the door, assaulted the client, and walked back out without any consensual intermediary steps along the way.
At the end of my residency the case I presented at my Licensing Examination was of a young woman who lost her father at a very young age. In fact, she had no recollection of him. At the time I wasn’t in a relationship but craved one. The patient was bright, insightful, open and good looking and at one point during her treatment I became infatuated with her. I was so alarmed by those emerging feelings in myself that I immediately told some of my colleagues, hoping the disclosure would protect me from any chance of acting upon my feelings. On the other hand, my supervisor at the time, with whom I also confided, half-jokingly said to me that perhaps I should peruse a relationship with this woman. After all, he said, true love is more important and therapy can be sought elsewhere.
Within a week or so my infatuation subsided and then vanished. I became very interested in what happened to me and how it was related to the patient’s dynamics. Gradually, I came to better understand the meaning of this infatuation. As Freud alerted us in one of his most famous papers,
In that paper Freud discusses love in the therapeutic setting, goes over the options available for action and concludes that, 1) the therapist must never succumb to temptations of any kind; 2) the patient should remain in treatment; and 3) love in the therapeutic setting is to be therapeutically investigated. It is in that paper that he recommends therapists work in “abstinence” – a term that was first worshiped and nowadays is rather maligned.
About 10% of mental health practitioners admit to having had inappropriate relationships with patients. These relationships are hardly ever straightforward, have many motivations and many outcomes, and are now universally forbidden ethically and at many countries also legally. Usually, a length of time must pass before a therapist is permitted to pursue a non-professional relationship with a former patient. Other professions (MD’s, physical therapists, etc.) also have similar occurrences. Putting aside sociopaths who are repeat offenders, my experience is that it has to do with unresolved narcissistic issues where love is felt to be ideal and panacean to the point of promising restoration of a much-needed harmony to one’s life.
Had I embarked on a relationship with my patient back then, I have no doubt that after a while a breakup would follow and both her and I would find ourselves miserable over it. On the other hand, I do know of a couple who met in the consulting room and are still married some 20 years later. For me, that one incident was the strongest infatuation I ever felt in my career as a therapist. It was frightening at the time but I learned a lot from it, about both myself and my patient.
By the way, Margaret’s point about real vs. non-real love is interesting and deserves a discussion.
Daniel, Interesting post, you are brave to discuss those feelings. It’s not that the therapist is “ bad” for having those feelings or any feelings but rather that they feel open to exploring them with the hope of insight and resolution. The supervisors job must be first to put the patients best interest ahead of everything else but also to create an open non shaming atmosphere for the therapist to reveal what it is they are feeling. Posting a big red A on anyone’s shoulder only creates an atmosphere of concealment. Sometimes the counter transference that the therapist reveals can lead to a better understanding of the patient as well. In your case I’m glad you could work through those feelings for both the sake of yourself and the patient. Partly it is a reminder that being a therapist and being a supervisor isn’t for everyone. Gretchen
my brother and me were preparing to celebrate my mom\s 90th birthday together with her on sunday.
we even had the green light from the nursing home to share a meal with her at lunchtime.
he already let me know he seemed to have a cold, right after mine got better last weekend.
today he texted me he feels worse and canceled his visit for sunday.
i managed to get the ok from the nursing home to bring my sister instead, and called my brother to ask him if it was ok for him, as the rules say she is now a covisitor for 2 weeks in a row and then he can take over again, as not to mix too many different visitors .
instead of texting I called him, and was shocked at the sound of his voice, so coarse, so different…
I asked him how he was doing and if he considered a Corona test, and he replied he felt bad, and that he felt like it was Corona. he would call his doctor and try to go for a test the next day, when he would hopefully feel a bit better…
of course I wished him all the best and so, but it really hit me, the fear of what might happen, the fear of how fast these things can turn really bad…
I am glad I called him and we talked about it briefly at least, instead of texting.
but I feel so very worried and scared!!!
i hate people that minimize Corona still, it feels so insensitive and crazy…
my brother is 66, has a great technical and security job thanks to his continued self study and classes, and still some people suggest he should just have stayed home, you know, ‘elderly’, the only ones at risk in their crazy view, ha, makes me so angry and frustrated.
anyone can get it, with a bit of bad luck, and also young people and kids can die of it, with just a minor genetic difference in their genes, or some hidden underlying latent affliction.
ok, sorry, just so scared and frustrated as I said,
Margaret
Margaret, that is really scary especially because of his age group! Your brother should go to urgent care as soon as possible and request Remdesivir for treatment, if he has Covid, and even if he has to be hospitalized to receive it. It is supposed to shorten recovery time for Covid patients with lower respiratory tract infection. I hope he doesn’t have Covid, though, but only a flu, and in any case, I wish him a speedy recovery! It must be so scary for you both right now. I find it frustrating too that so many people still deny the pandemic and behave like nothing is wrong, this while thousands die from it. I keep my fingers crossed for you! Hang in there!
Margaret,
I hope your brother is OK, and doesn’t have Covid.
I agree with you, young people do get Covid, can die, or have their bodies badly damaged. They do have a lower risk, but it doesn’t seem possible to segregate the population so that young people don’t come in to contact with older and vulnerable people. That hasn’t worked, as far as I know. Ideally everyone would be careful and take precautions, but that isn’t really happening.
We canceled our usual very large Thanksgiving gathering, to instead have only our two sons here. We did have a big Zoom meeting, but that’s not the same. Things aren’t going back to normal anytime soon, I’m afraid. Even with vaccines coming out soon.
Phil
I was going to avoid this conversation, first, because I didn’t want to get into a struggle about what’s right or wrong, and second, because it brought up some real panic in me. It should be, and I want it to be a black and white issue, a simple solution, right or wrong – but maybe because the panic in me is unbearable, I want a quick fix. A part of me knows that there is no simple solution, the lines are blurred, and the situation is complicated. Feelings are complicated.
I am not writing any of this to accuse anybody, or point fingers at, or pass any judgements. I am writing this in the hope to gain some clarity for myself and hopefully resolve some old stuff. Here is my baseline: Is it ethically and/or morally wrong for a therapist to pursue a relationship with a patient? Yes. There are clear guidelines. Is it a crime? No. Feeling wise, it doesn’t sit right with me.
As a survivor of child sexual abuse, I am hypersensitive to incidents of “lines crossed” when I see it. I didn’t know Rick personally, nor the patient. I only knew them from the post-groups, and Rick at the reception at times. I didn’t pay any particular attention to either of them. However, at the institute I observed two incidents between Rick and the patient that clearly activated that “lines crossed” sixth sense in me. This was a few weeks before their relationship became public. I reported it both times (to two different therapists) and both times, I was brushed off and denied my reality – “it’s your feeling” type of thing.
I am in no way suggesting that Rick’s patient had a similar history to mine, or had similar issues to deal with, I do not know. I am only describing what I would expect from a therapist in such a case as mine:
As a result of my incidents of sexual abuse by different men in childhood and teenage years, my act outs as a young woman were promiscuity and unconscious flirting behavior with any man in a power position that I came in contact with – teacher, professor, doctor, chiropractor, supervisor, someone’s boyfriend or husband, therapist, etc. It was an automatic response and I was not aware of it.
As a patient, I expect the therapist to catch this flirting and make me aware of it, not fall for it. I ask myself, How can a therapist who is professionally trained and knows that it is ethically wrong to pursue a relationship with a patient, let himself get carried away with his emotions. It is pretty clear to me that a young woman entrusting herself to a male therapist, would automatically subconsciously try to recreate a messed-up relationship from the past. Isn’t that called transference? Shouldn’t a therapist be aware of this and instantly counteract it? Wouldn’t a therapist avoid under all circumstances an emotional response? I know we can’t always control our emotions, but I expect a therapist to either work out his counter transference feelings, or withdraw from treating this patient. And I also would expect, that if the therapist cannot make such a decision, that his supervisor steps in and stops the insanity. This is where I stand at the moment. I might evolve as I go forward and explore my feelings about it.
Can someone give me a definition of “genuine love”? Is it genuine love, if the relationship ends after a few years? If one party opens a law suit against the other party? Wouldn’t “genuine love” give it all to work through relationship issues? And if and when the relationship ends, at least find an amicable solution? Is a nasty breakup an indication that there were other feelings involved, such as “need” or “ownership” or “conquest” or a sense of “I have to be in a relationship with this patient in order to help her, because if I can show her how it’s really done, she can finally heal and recover from her trauma”? – none of these fit into the definition of genuine love, should there be one. Is there really such a thing as “genuine love” anyway? Especially between two people who deal with personal, unresolved trauma? From my own experience, being in a long term relationship, both of us in therapy and both severely traumatized, the fact that we are still together is mostly not dependent on how I feel about him, but how I feel about myself.
Again, I don’t mean any judgment here. I am posing these questions in an attempt to explore my thoughts and feelings. And to hear anybody’s take on it, if possible.
My panic level is hitting the roof as I am posting this.
I’m wondering why your panic level is hitting the roof in regards to your post, Bernadette. The sense of urgency that you convey in hoping for a response or discussion of the questions you ask draws me into a reply. In my opinion and limited life experience there is such a thing as genuine love, in the sense of feeling deeply for the loved one and wanting to give attention to their needs being met almost as much as to your own.
I’ve only heard some rumors; I don’t know any of the truth surrounding the details of the relationship you mention between Rick and his client. Since I don’t know what the truth is, I don’t make any judgement about it. However, I think that if I was a therapist falling in love with my client, I would remove myself from treating that client in order to pursue the romantic relationship. It seems to me that if the romantic relationship is to be a healthy one, neither party would be consciously doing therapy on the other. The former client would have to get therapy from someone else, not from the former therapist now lover. But it’s easy for me to imagine how I should behave as a therapist in such a scenario. How I would actually behave is thus far and likely forever unkown.
Bernadette,
I think you’re right on what you say here. It’s highly unethical for a therapist to be acting on those kinds of feelings towards a patient, and I think that’s true whether it’s genuine love or not.
I guess that’s why nowadays there are regulations and laws against this type of abusive behavior. Not only is it unethical, but how successful could therapy be under those conditions? In the case of primal, a lot of money is spent, and commitment made to getting well.
Phil
Bernadette, I am glad you wrote this — some detailed and good questions to think about. And the “reality” of the “love” is bound to involve any unresolved feelings in both people — so perhaps there is a spectrum, for all relationships, of any type. With any therapist, if I had doubts about their clarity and felt some distrust, I would have to discuss that with them, before I could be willing to risk my trust with them. This is not always easy, and may require some involvement, to even work it out.
I have worked with a few therapists where I immediately had doubts about their integrity or experience, but I agreed to work with them on someone’s recommendation, to try and see. It did not go badly for me, I benefitted therapeutically, and sometimes I was able to respond & confront when I felt it went wrong, or inappropriately, and we worked it out. Early in therapy, it was much harder for me to feel clear about what was going on, as I was so unclear about my own old feelings and connections to the present. But that has become easier with time and my own progress — some of those mistakes I would likely handle differently now. For all my therapy, I have had many feelings come up about things that have happened in therapy, and that has helped my progress immensely — I think we all go through that, to varying degrees.
Among those incidents, there was one therapist where I immediately had a hunch of doubts about her integrity, yet I still benefitted from working with her — but eventually found out my suspicion was correct, as she did some thoroughly unethical things, to me and others, which I confronted forcefully and directly, only to catch her being dishonest, even lying, about what she had done. She soon left the Institute, and years later, when I ran into her outside, she was still inappropriate with me, which showed me she never did get the point that what she did was unethical & dishonest. I think her own unresolved neediness has blinded her to her self-serving actions. This is not something I expected to be true, when I started therapy, but I am glad I learned that lesson.
I recall Barry saying to me when I reported a , ” feeling good,” moment; “Don’t worry you’ll feel bad again.”
Not meaning to sound juvenile, nor condescending, but, of course there is agapy, parental,.. etc; in addition to romantic love. Call it kind personal regared, or whatever, but I would hope we care for those we serve. For me, had I ever engaged in romantic thought and behaviour with a client or patient, it would have been tantamount to incest and or predation. I addressed it with a thank you that I’m deemed worthy of such feelings, but I’m not in love with you and that will never happen. I didn’t offer an opinion on the etiology of the stated feelings, nor judgement.
It was of interest that sexual abuse victims, confining this only to my experience, would request and investigator, and therapist, of the same sex as their offender. I am familiar with, ” why,” but will offer only it might be powerfully rebuilding to discover a healthy caring relationship with that gender.
I knew of and reported psychiatrists who crossed that line both factually and in uttering sick dialogue after interviewing victims.
I admire your courage in sharing.
Happy Thanksgiving ! 🦃 An odd Thanksgiving to be sure but still much to be thankful for. Gretch and Barry p.s. Bernadette, I have loved your recent posts. Very courageous to be so open while feeling so vulnerable! G.
Canadian Thanksgiving long past, by a month. Tofu, beans and rice..
I feel envious that Bernaette is earning your accolades, Gretchen.
I sat at this computer one night, after, rifle unlocked and loaded, I’d had enough, resolution decided upon, an aquaintance came by, after midnight, needing a favour. Feelinglessness Interrupted, I later turned to this community, (and more than once.) Perhaps the internet goblin gobbled it up, my agony… no response. I assume it was deemed unworthy, I didn’t qualify, I don’t belong to the club; and, of course, reality, no P patient on the blog knows me. And I have been an irritant at times. My lifelong feelings of worthlessness, hoplessness, imposter, are fed, and, I know, they can only be fed if they are already there. I recall thinking that amazingly brilliant thought, that attitude, when it was about, my clients/patients very early in my career, and thankfully dumped. But it’s not even the equivalent of a sugar pill to hear it, and not the only way, nor, IMHO, the most effective help for that to be the only tool in responders’ tool kit.
Feeling slightly queasy in my stomach for my admission, or is it fear of further reinforcement… Whatever I’m in a manageable place today. Best thoughts to all.
David H
Happy 🦃 Thanksgiving
Happy Thanksgiving, Jo. Did you have turkey for your Thanksgiving, yesterday?
Thanks Vicki. I dont celebrate Thanksgiving here in the UK, but I’m always aware of the day, and my N.American residential friends’ tradition of the family/friends gathering for the big meal, (except this year is a little different, as Gretchen says). How was it for you?
Oh, that’s right, I forgot no “Thanksgiving”! I was fasting most of the day, but suddenly remembered I had bought some sliced turkey the week before, and forgot to eat it. I checked it was still good, and also re-heated some veggies, so it was good. But no pie, as I made sure I didn’t buy any “suicide food”. Otherwise, taking care to “stay safe”, since over half of those infected are apparently completely asymptomatic — not helpful!
Bernadette, I hate to use the words right and wrong in general but since I have no other language to use I would go as far as to say it’s always wrong. For all the reasons mentioned it is wrong for the patient but also wrong for the therapist. I do know of one circumstance outside of the Institute where the couple married and are still together but still I think it’s a mistake. I do understand that those kind of feelings can come up but it’s incumbent upon the therapist to do everything possible to deal with their feelings. When you work with other therapists you can’t necessarily control anyone else’s choices but you can create an atmosphere without judgement or shaming or accusation ( or unnecessary gossip) that allows for all feelings to be discussed. It is really the only hope of working through the issues that come up for any therapist. If someone came to me today and said they were having feelings about a client would I tell them to leave the building and never come back ? Absolutely not. I would suggest they let me try to help them work through what was really going on and I would suggest they no longer work with that client. I might suggest they take a break from doing therapy at all for some time. Of course there are a million scenarios each to be treated differently. For instance we are discussing someone who reveal their feelings to a supervisor and nothing has actually happened as in the case with Rick vs someone who is seeing a client and already started an affair. That would be a whole different story of course. Anyway I’m glad you asked the question Bernadette but I have to give a nod to Vicki here and question why this issue that happened many, many years ago was brought up in the first place. I don’t think it was for purposes of intellectual discussion lol! I will leave it at that . Gretch p.s. I do think all this applies to teachers and many other professions as well.
Gretchen, yeah I am still wondering why Renee brought up this issue to begin with. Not that it hasn’t been fodder for valuable discussion all it’s own, but as Vicki pointed out earlier the entire discussion might be resting on a deceptive premise.
Renee bringing up the Rick Janov topic reminds me of how I was at a retreat at Casa de Maria and Vivian was there (around the year 2000, I think). Vivian made it a point to pay extra attention to me in group, when I didn’t want that attention. As a diversionary tactic I brought up circumcision because I knew at the time it would be a hot-button issue for some guys and my raising the topic would subversively help enlist a few guys in group to force Vivian’s attention off of me right away. Sure enough, when I asked Vivian what she thought of circumcision, she said it’s standard procedure…which immediately enraged several men in group and she had to focus on that, taking her attention completely away from me for the rest of the entire day. I had achieved my objective through deceptive means.
The entire circumcision topic rested on a dishonest premise, namely I simply wanted people to leave me alone in group. The topic itself had no inherent meaning for me; it was only provisionally useful for another purpose entirely.
Yes, I did briefly feel like an evil mastermind converting a few people into emotional chess pieces, unwittingly helping me to achieve my objective.
Obviously, all I had to do at the time was tell Vivian I needed to be left alone and I was overloaded with too many things on my mind.
The circumcision route was overly circuitous (pun intended).
David, You are always welcome on the blog and I don’t think you have ever been an irritant. I’m not sure if you are saying you did not receive an answer to your comments or that your blog comments did not post. Sometimes it’s just a matter of no one being around at the moment we post. It’s the luck of the draw in a sense. In any case I’m glad you are here! Gretchen
Happy Thanksgiving everyone! I returned from a lovely bike ride along the beach with hubby and found all your posts. Awesome!
We stopped at the Ballona Creek and I did some bird watching, while hubby sat on a bench. While watching the waterfowl through the scope, I thought about my earlier post, and I wondered: does hubby sitting on a bench patiently waiting while I watch birds count for genuine love? Smile.
Larry: I appreciate your concern and your reply. The topic of (potential) abuse always puts me into panic, and speaking out about it reminds me that nothing that ever happened to me in the past was ever addressed, acknowledged or clarified. I never told my parents, and none of the perpetrators were ever found out or punished for what they did to me. This has left a bitter after taste, one that clouds my brain and judgement at times. Speaking out, writing about it in a clear (or confused) or critical voice brings up the panic. On top of that, I just had woken up from a terrifying nightmare where a spider in the size of a grapefruit attacked me! Yikes! It scared the hell out of me and made me realize that something more is pushing up into my consciousness. I knew then that I had to write. More to come, I’m sure. I like your definition of genuine love. You are lucky to have experienced it! And thanks for your input on the therapist/patient relationship question. Much appreciated!
Phil, Thanks much for your clear voice. No ifs or buts, just straight forward. I wish I could think so clearly. And thank god for the clearly defined guidelines nowadays. For me, there is always a bit of a doubt because of my experiences in childhood. Are the lines always so clearly defined, or are deviations allowed. If so, how far? I am sure, as I keep feeling more of the panic, my head will become clearer.
Vicki, I agree with your description of the “spectrum” of love in a relationship. Since we all have unresolved feelings, and we all have been conditioned to act in a certain way, it is quite difficult to pinpoint the reality of the feeling of genuine love. For example, I like Larry’s definition but instantly have questions when he says “wanting to give attention to their needs being met almost as much as to your own” – it sounds great but what if I have been conditioned to always give and look out for the other one, and because of this conditioning automatically go on meeting my partner’s needs but for other conditioned reasons don’t ever consider my own, that is not true love, and can only end in frustration. It’s complicated on a human level. Thanks for sharing your experiences with therapists at the institute. I can see how much you have grown over the years and that your voice (and head) is clear because you have put the effort into finding reality. I often think, Vicki doesn’t take any B.S. from anybody! I appreciate your clear voice.
Gretchen, thanks for clarifying things. I wonder, if Rick did speak to a supervisor before anything happened, why could he not be stopped, or why did he not stop himself. It begs the question, when does the affair actually begin? Does it begin when an overt step is taken, or does it start much earlier, when the idea of an affair/relationship comes to mind. When did this all start in his mind? And how did things that had already happened in his mind influence him to make a step in real time? – – And I agree with you, there remains the question, why was this incident brought up on the blog in the first place, and what the motive could be.
Guru, I was quite appalled when I first came to the U.S. and learned that circumcision is standard procedure! What? Not so in Europe, and neither should it be. I thought that circumcision was a Jewish custom, and was astonished that an entire country would give in to such a ruling. When I discussed this with another patient at a retreat, I said I think it is barbaric, and he agreed. Why a baby should be mutilated in such a way, is beyond me. I am glad that in the meantime, a mother giving birth nowadays can request beforehand that her baby boy should not be circumcised. Women fighting for their rights in terms of their bodies and abortion should also fight for the rights of their baby boys’ bodies. Thank god the percentage of circumcised baby boys has lowered over the recent years. I hope this trend will continue.
Bernadette, I wrote it slightly incorrectly in saying that Vivian described it as ‘standard procedure’. It was more along the lines of her saying it’s a ‘traditional briss’ in a matter-of-fact way. I knew beforehand she was going to say that and it would make a lot of guys upset.
Anyway, I don’t want to open a can of worms over the circumcision topic as it has already been discussed extensively.
I only told this story because it had similarities to the possibility of Rick’s story being raised with ulterior motives (as Vicki explained) with many others just taking the amorous therapist topic and letting it have a life of its own.
Guru, got it! Thanks!
Guru, good that you are acknowledging your deceptive diversion technique, but the question that remains is: what feelings were you avoiding when you diverted Vivian’s and the group’s attention away from you?
Hi Bernadette, it’s nice that you would take the time to ask me this question…but honestly I was trying to work out some E-X-T-R-A-O-R-D-I-N-A-R-I-L-Y complex problems which would have been impossible to work out in a single group session (Lisa Lewis’
“It’s No Accident” book I talked about earlier is suggested reading here as a starting point). I now remember it was the 2002 retreat with Vivian. I absolutely had to go at the time because it was during the time the entire world was utterly subsumed in octillions of words of 9/11 coverage and I was eyeing the 130 word article about my mother’s ending, thinking, “Hey, wait a minute!! Something doesn’t fucking add up here at all !! What’s going on here?? How do I begin to work this out?”
Anyway, I was completely on my own and overwhelmed with this emerging issue, and there was no time to begin cutting into all of it that day with 20-30 other people vying for attention. I really needed serious time and space to sort out what the fuck was going on.
Those issues have been resolved, anyway. The answers are grim as hell, though, and I’m still out untold tens of millions of dollars or more in economic damages.
Going back to the present moment, I am more urgently trying to deal with my anger at the predator neighbor and continue working on trying to get by in life financially.
David, thank you for your thoughts! What jumped out to me was your statement “ For me, had I ever engaged in romantic thought and behaviour with a client or patient, it would have been tantamount to incest and or predation” – it sounds right, and I can relate to it. It reminded me of the time when I was working in the international admissions office at Santa Monica College. There I had similar experiences where young male students would come on to me, flatter me, flirt with me, wanted to invite me out, even marry me…their motive unclear (maybe they were after a green card, ha!)… but I had the same reaction as yours. It would feel incestuous to start an affair with one of these young students… definitely on the unethical spectrum.
As to your other statement, that patients would request a therapist of the same sex as their offender in order to rebuild a healthy relationship to that gender: it makes sense, but that was different for me. I wanted to work only with female therapists in the first few years, and only after having dealt with some of the trauma, I was able to trust a male therapist enough to start rebuilding a more healthy relationship with a man.
As to your other post to Gretchen, I had a reaction. I was afraid for you when I read that you sat with “rifle unlocked and loaded“ feeling at the end of your rope, and thank god you were interrupted. I relate to your feelings of helplessness and unworthiness… please keep writing about it here. Don’t give up! I have received some tremendous feedback here and expressing my thoughts and feelings in public has helped me a lot. Like you, I’ve had some of my posts gobbled up before, disappeared, that’s why I am making a habit of writing my posts first in a word document before I copy and past them into the blog. I hope to see you here more often.
I could argue how love in the therapy room is not like “ordinary” love outside it. I could also reason that they are actually the same. In my own case, it felt every bit as real as any other infatuation outside the therapy room. The patient had things I felt lacking in me. She was open where I felt introverted, vivacious where I felt listless, feeling where I felt blocked, at ease with others where I felt cumbersome and tense around others. Or so she seemed. My attraction to her offered me a direct way to get all these precious things tax free, without having to go through my difficulties and pain to obtain them from within. In other words, my love had a considerable defensive part in it, a way to circumvent primal pain.
Of course, you could argue that this defensive aspect is often an ingredient in “ordinary” love as well. True enough. My way out of this problem, as Gretchen, Bernadette, David, Phil and others also said, is via the concept of role. As a therapist I’m in a role and a big part of that role is to help the patient deal with her defences rather than play into them. The patient’s love may seem like a move toward but very often is a move away from something. It’s not always easy to tell the difference and two consenting adults who wish to overcome the obstacles to their being together is the subject of many a tale, from the Arabian Nights down to almost any Hollywood romantic comedy. It may seem like a road to happiness, but the role, if kept, is preventing that from happening. Although my love may seem to the patient like the thing she wants, in a deeper way I would be failing her if I stepped out of my role, which is, it should never be forgotten, what she came and paid for in the first place.
Gretchen made an important point. Non-judgemental openness helps people be.. well… human.. with all their complexities, anxieties, self-judgements, loves and hatreds. She also hinted that therapy is a risk. Whenever two people meet nobody knows in advance how it is going to transpire, what will they say to one another or feel toward each other. It is a risk also because it can be a waste of time and money. I think it’s safe to say that all present believe this is one risk worth taking.
Finally, I think Bernadette brings up an adjacent subject: how is it that we get attracted to something which is not “good” for us? Or, why is it that out sexual objects are at times different from the objects we like, that we feel kindness towards? What is it about desiring and consummating our desire that seem to have rules of their own, at times quite apart from our stated wishes, what we would like to have for ourselves? In other words, how is it that our appetites and fellow feelings become incompatible? How come we may find ourselves working for our sexuality rather than our sexuality working for us?
Phil, clearly, every relationship is different, and I get it that you don’t want to or can’t share your deepest feelings with your wife. It makes a big difference too, when both are in therapy, it is more natural to talk about feelings. That said, it is not at all easier for me to reveal some of my deepest feelings to my husband, especially when it is in regards to a problem in the relationship. (BTW, as a side note: I don’t think the problem is actually “in the relationship” but in me. I have to address the feelings that bother me, and I still need help with it). I think it’s a good thing starting a relationship based on good times and enjoying each others’ company. It’s a good base line to fall back to. In my case, I sometimes think we chose each other because of similar pain and that’s not always easy to deal with. When you said, your feelings are “too negative and painful” and you don’t expect anybody to relate to them, I just wanted to say, that’s an old feeling in itself. I believe that you deserve being heard and listened to and those are the very feelings that bring the most relief and insights once you can address them, with a therapist (or on the blog).
Thanks for sharing your history with your mother. It sounds heartbreaking. It must have been devastating for you as a little boy, not being spoken to and then losing her at such a young age. I can see the little boy visiting mom at the nursing home and being totally ignored and overlooked. How hurt and forlorn you must have felt. I would imagine there is some deep seated pain.
I was excited to read that you are learning to play the saxophone and that you have music in your veins! That is real inspiration! And I think you are right, you got that talent from your mother; it’s something to honor and hold on to. Do you take lessons, or are you learning on your own? I have learned to play a few instruments but never stuck with any of them, which I often regret now. Keep writing! I like reading your posts.
Bernadette,
I’m impressed how you take the time to give everyone on the blog good responses. I appreciate what you said here. I think you don’t always have to respond, after a while it could get to be too much.
You’re lucky your husband is in therapy. So you both should be willing to look closely at what’s going on between you. I’m sure we are in our current relationships because they perpetuate some patterns from the past. Do you recognise old patterns in your marriage relationship?
In my family we covered things over and didn’t talk about them,even if they were huge. Nobody wanted to know about my negative and painful feelings. So, that I don’t expect that now I agree is an old feeling.
I have a music teacher for the saxophone, and that’s helping a lot. It also brings up feelings, because I have to often feel how unskilled and inept I am with the instrument.
That is a familiar barrier for me, because those type situations can be triggering. I guess i’d like to already be a good musician not needing help from anyone. I think asking for help as a child was humiliating for me and became impossible. But I think I’m making good progress with the sax.
Phil
Phil, I like blogging at the moment, and responding to the different posts gives me an opportunity to explore my thoughts and feelings. However, if at any point my replies get too much for you, just stop writing back 🙂 That said, I enjoy reading your posts.
As long as we are not completely healthy and sane, I think we choose our partners, mostly on a subconscious level, because something in us wants to work out old, unhealthy patterns and pains; we strive to be whole. I also think that we can’t help but recreate our old patterns with the partner we choose. It’s inevitable as long as we have not worked out all the pain.
Do I recognize old patterns in my marriage relationship? Most definitely! I sometimes think I married my father, although at first sight they are very different people. And yet, the old patterns surface almost daily. All the feelings I wrote about here that I had about my father as a child, sometimes resurface with my husband. The need to take care of him, the being scared of his angry reactions, the not being noticed, and more. Not only that, I have noticed relationship patterns between us that I observed between my mother and father. Which points to learned behavior, IMO. After many years working on my old feelings, I also learned to interpret certain of his behaviors in different ways. For example, I used to think he is controlling when he cleaned up after me, when now I think it’s his OCD tendencies, or he has an urgent need to make himself useful, or I accept that he needs things to be sterile while I am fine with sparkling clean. 🙂 In other words, it all depends on my reaction now. And my reaction depends on whether or not I have worked out my old feelings.
Today was a tough day for me; I constantly felt criticized by him, leaving me with the feeling that I can’t do anything right. If I analyze the situation from a distance, I notice that he is on edge, from God knows what, and needs to act it out on me, and I am already vulnerable because of the issues I have written about on the blog, and therefore more susceptible to his criticism. So, what is the seasoned primal patient to do? Just let it be. Because tomorrow will be different again. And some insights will come. I also have to stress that we have to be careful not to “make” our partner into the parent by comparing them constantly; they are entirely different people and we can choose to have an entirely different relationship with them than with the parent. But that goes without saying…
Bravo on you sax practice! I totally understand that it brings up old feelings, especially when you need to ask for help. Nobody wanted to hear you or listen to you in the past, I assume that’s why you felt it was humiliating to ask for help, so now it would bring up that pain when you ask for help. Makes sense. Keep going!
I’m going a bit out on a limb here, with some feelings that seem complex to me, not completely clear, and not sure I’m being perfectly consistent. C’est la vie.
A couple of nights ago, I woke in the early morning, and was thinking about what I wrote in response to Renee’s first post about Peter of PP&M, & Rick. And in wondering what’s going on with Renee, and the anger behind it, that seems so plainly obvious — it reminded me of a long ago time in my therapy, when several times, I was angry enough to consider leaving therapy, with feelings of betrayal, unfairness, distrust, and manipulation fueling my anger and intertwining it with paranoia, and making me wonder and imagine that maybe I was right, no one cared, and maybe I should leave, with a ‘fuck-off’ attitude, and hopelessness.
Sometimes I went in and out of such feelings for weeks, trying to sort through and feel my anger, usually with not even enough trust to talk about my suspicions, afraid of being ‘stomped on’, ‘dismissed’, or ‘ridiculed’ for voicing such feelings, that felt aberrant, mean, vicious, or snotty. What also made it nearly impossible for me to express them, was the fact that I also knew I was “in old feelings”, as unclear as whatever they were. So even though I felt some of my anger was justifiable, I still thought I was likely so full of shit that it would be easy for someone to flay me alive verbally, and leave me pinned to the wall, gasping, wounded and bleeding. Those were my emotional expectations, for baring my personal torment.
Sometimes I have talked about the feelings, in part, or tried to approach them, with varying results — depending on how pressing my torment was or how close acting-on-it seemed. If I have to put words to what I’m feeling then, it’s usually ‘disconnected’, ‘alienated’, ‘no one cares about me’. Some of my sessions and groups have partly echoed what I have seen happen with Renee (and others) in groups, so those incidents have seemed familiar to me. When that happens to me, I am left in such distress, not knowing what the fuck is going-on, and I can only cry or rant about how awful I feel, and hope it will ‘go away’ and sooner or later, it does.
Over my years of feelings, these ‘unacceptable’ feelings have mostly subsided, or I have gotten more experienced at hiding them from myself (or some of both). I don’t feel driven to resurrect them, but I don’t assume they are really all resolved, and so they may come back to haunt me, I don’t know. All it takes is a flare-up of mistrust.
That’s as close as I can get to imagining what Renee might go through, each time she has screwed herself up to leave a therapist.
Vicki, good work and great post! I have been in similar situations at the Institute where I felt betrayed, not heard, lied to, etc., with resulting feelings of anger and mistrust, and stayed away for weeks or months because of it. I still think all my feelings were justified, but I also know in the meantime that there are ways to deal with these feelings, and more often than not, there is an old feeling component with it. I used to think that I can’t or are not allowed to express anger and frustration towards the therapist, an old feeling for me, as I was not allowed to talk back as a child, and being angry would have only resulted in more punishment. But I have learned in the meantime that the therapists are willing and able to hear my mistrust and anger towards them and deal with it and help me resolve the feelings. You have heard me in small group.
That said, there is a difference between expressing anger and “dumping”! I cannot expect my therapist to have a favorable and understanding reaction and wanting to help me, if I dump my anger on them. I have to take responsibility for my anger, and verbalize it, make it clear, and acknowledge that there is potentially or most likely an old unresolved feeling behind it. Even if there is a percentage of truth in the real world (which there always is, for every feeling), the trick is to leave that aside in order to be able to deal with my own old feeling.
The word “collaboration” comes to mind; dealing with it together rather than going against. My question to myself at that point is, Am I here to deal with my old shit, or am I here to prove that I am right and he/she is wrong. Of course, if I am not inclined to take responsibility for my own anger and the pain that is causing it on an old feeling level, then it is easier to dump all that anger on the therapist.
Also I think that therapists are not perfect human beings, they too have their blind spots and unresolved issues, no matter how much they say they don’t! It is not up to me to make them see that or deal with their own stuff. I am only here to do my therapy. I don’t believe any of the therapists I worked with were deliberately deceptive or deceitful, or they had a good reason to hide the truth, like when the therapists denied the Rick-thing that I brought up to them. One of those therapists later apologized to me after the affair came out.
Another confession: I was lying in bed in the early morning hours contemplating about how to respond to Daniel’s interesting and thought-provoking post, I marveled at how complicated and opaque human relationships can be, how little we really know about our true motivations, and how much we fall prey to our subconscious mind, needs, and fears at times. I had some good ideas as to respond, but what made me jump out of the bed and start writing, were these sudden insights:
When Larry asked me “why my panic level was hitting the roof” (in connection with the post about Rick) and I said that talking about potential abuse always makes me panic – well that’s true, and everything I subsequently wrote about my experiences and resulting confusion is true, but I know now, it’s only half the truth. I kind of “knew” when I responded to Larry that it was not the entire truth, but as tricky as my confused mind gets sometimes, I thought I would get away with it. Not anymore!
I wrote about a dream I had during that time, in which a huge spider attacked me, stay with me, it is significant: Spiders in dreams are a symbol for deception and manipulation. When I tried to interpret my dream and find out who the spider could be representing, turning it one way and the other, I came to the conclusion that the spider was me, and I was deceiving myself.
When I said “I was going to avoid this conversation” and wrote about the Rick issue – well that’s true, too, but what I really was avoiding was getting into a struggle with Renee about what is right or wrong. I was afraid to address Renee directly, speak my truth, for personal reasons, as we have a history off-blog that I didn’t want to dredge up, and I was afraid that Renee would attack me, retaliate, try to twist my brain, or what have you. I also wanted to keep my promise to Renee not to divulge things she has told me in confidence; although we are not friends anymore, I still want to keep that promise. So, while everything I have written about the Rick issue was valuable for me to work through and was my honest take, what I also needed to say is this:
“Renee, honestly, this is really fucked up. I don’t know why you bring up Rick at this point. My spontaneous thought: you are trying to retaliate against something or someone at the Institute. Your “innocent” inquiry is in truth a fishing expedition for more “dirt” that you can use against the Institute, maybe to destroy its credibility. Or it might be even more personal, against Gretchen. You might also be looking for allies to back you up on this vicious attack. That’s just my instincts telling me. Also, there is no comparison between Yarrow and Rick. Yarrow abused a minor while Rick got involved with a consenting adult. The first is punishable by law, while the other is unethical but does not call for a prison sentence, as you suggest. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t condone Rick’s actions, I also think it’s highly questionable and unethical. That aside, I can’t help but think that you have something else in mind here. Your anger and bitterness are shining through loud and clear. Your disguised attack is really quite transparent. It would be more honest and helpful to you to address your feelings instead of attacking. What is really concerning here, is your motive, especially if you are not consciously aware of it.”
I know this is way after the fact, and a bit too little too late, but in an attempt to stay honest with myself, and as a commitment to my mental health development and my own sanity, I am going ahead and post it anyway. And fuck the panic!
Maybe the spider in my dream was you, Renee. It was quite pretty and shiny and could have been interpreted as an innocent toy at first sight, but like you wrapping your post about Rick in an “innocent” shroud of curiosity or attempt to initiate an intellectual conversation, in truth you have an ulterior motive. So the anchor that the spider in my dream threw out on its silvery shiny tether and that imbedded in my thigh, well, I am severing it as of now. I am not getting hooked and reeled in anymore. More power to me!
And to Vicki: thank you for your steadfast voice, your courage to speak the truth, and taking no B.S. from anybody.
I still want to reply to Daniel’s post, and I will get to that later.
I wonder if Rick happens to be reading this blog, and what might he be thinking about all these people talking about him?
He’s either:
a) Not reading the blog and not giving a damn what we think
b) Reading the blog and laughing his ass off at all the crazy people chatting about him
c) Reading the blog and practicing EXTREME self-discipline in not saying this might be upsetting for him to read, straining against massive temptation to reveal his thoughts/feelings here.
Impossible for me to tell, and there may be other possibilities.
Bernadette, thanks for the kind words you said previously. Anyway, when we were kids, my older brother and i were (at least one time) in this crawl space under our house in hollywood. For some reason, whether to fuck with me, scare me, or maybe he thought he was joking, he was talking about black widow spiders, which he alleged were hiding from us only feet away. I am only writing this because you mentioned spiders above and it reminded me of my brother and the black widow episode. I am not trying to distract or shift focus away from your current feeling/topic as if I was a mini-trump; but your spider-mention just reminded me of my own experience. I have nothing better to do than write something on this wonderful Sagittarius Saturday, since my gardener made a surprise visit to our backyard to finely trim a tree, I guess because he had nothing else to do. So I could not go out there to clean up, especially since he and his latinx family do not wear covid masks, and so his droplets were verily contaminating my air out there. I could not clean up the kitchen or bathroom or anything else in the house, since b was watching tv, as she stated, she had nothing else to do or maybe she did not want to do a damn thing at all. If I try to clean when she is not confined to her office or bedroom, it irritates the hell out of me, because I will be washing dishes or whatever and she will be wherever I am and trap me and trip all over me. Whatever old and enduring pain that that is about, who knows…whatever… I was talking about frigging black widow spiders. Those black widow spiders haunted me for a good amount of time. My bedroom was directly over the crawl space, and I would cower under my covers every night, my body and my face tightly wrapped, sweating in fear, trying to fall asleep. I knew that the black widows were coming for me, my brother had told me so. I was sleeping in that room by myself, since my asshole brother had gotten me kicked out of the bedroom which we had shared together for a long time. He and I were playing in there, making noise as we lay in bed, late into the night, which kept my grandmother from falling asleep in the spider room that was soon to be MY room. She got up very early to go to work every day, and she got pissed, and so new sleeping arrangements happened. Like shit does. Anyway, that is just the tip of the iceberg. My brother got us kicked out of Hollywood by his pranky nature. He was also a Sagittarius, but he used his sagittariusness with an assholish bent. My somewhat-loving aunt and uncle lived next door, and I was comfortable there. In Hollywood, I had grown out of the horror years of my very early life, from 10 months old through 5 years old, in which my mom died and I lived with terrorist uncle albie for 8 months while mom was slowly dying, not to mention more early years after that, when my grandmother took me and my brother back from our respective foster-uncles. Any memories that I should have of that time of my life are pretty much non-existent, although if I write enough maybe they will surface. I have no memory of year 2 through 5. Anyway, my brother got caught with matches at school in hollywood, causing my grandmother to think my wonderful uncle ernie was a bad influence, since ernie was a smoker and my brother spent a good deal of time with him and had the matches allegedly to light ernie’s cigarettes, because uncle ernie had damaged his own hand too much to light his cigarettes himself. And so my grandmother ripped us away from the safety of aunt elsie and uncle ernie and my 3rd grade girlfriend and moved us boys to long beach, where I was left alone a lot (nothing much new for me) , while my brother was free to go out with his friends and hone his brand of stupid carelessness and cruelty. Anyway, the tip of the iceberg. I have to call him now to wish him a happy birthday and I hate talking to him. One day or another, one of us will get the phone call telling one of us that our brother is dead. My dog is dead, but my memory of her is fading, although the hole in my heart remains big.
I was just listening to some music on my computer; Gordon Lightfoot’s “If you could read my mind” , and “Puff the Magic Dragon,” by PP&M. Listening to Peter Yarrow’s sweet voice, he seems like such a gentle man. I have watched the online documentary of PP&M and seeing Yarrow’s kids talk about him with affection and how protective they seemed swimming with him in nature at a spring, and somewhat acknowledging a weakness in him. You wonder what in is background made him act out and jeopardize his career by his uninvited advances to a teenage girl. I have a feeling primal therapy could uncover what pains drove this. I recall in Art Janov’s writings of a football player he had treated who would flash women, risking his career driven by his compulsion. Anyway, I was just thinking about it all.
S
Sylvia, I remember Yarrow was also an alcoholic in a recovery program, so perhaps when he went to answer his hotel door and was naked, he was drunk or on the way — I’ll bet that kind of stupidity is common. But if he was “tightly wound up” with over-control, the booze would have allowed him to relax his controls — unfortunately in his case. Still doesn’t quite answer your question. I mean, there was a dynamic — how did the girls react on seeing him naked, and how did he interpret their reaction, or react to it, and how much did that factor into his “taking liberties”? Or did he have specific old trauma making him want to “flash” or somehow feel better about himself, in that self-destructive way? A lot of possibilities.
Yes, Vicki, you are right, if he had alcohol problems, that means there was pain there, somewhere. Who knows what was going on, maybe being away from home and lonely, or his wife giving him a bad time, and like you say, with his guard down and uninhibited he forced his attentions where they weren’t wanted–only conjecture is all we have. but a sad thing all around because he hurt someone else besides himself.
Yes, Sylvia, he did. And I still have a hard time imagining how he could have been rational at all, to think he could “force his attentions” on a 14-yr.old right girl, right in front of her 17-yr.old sister witnessing! I would have thought he would try and be secretive, to avoid any problems. That’s why I keep thinking he must have been drunk. But what do I know.
Bernadette was discussing her spider dream earlier today with my remembering that I almost **never** remember any dreams. I just sleep, and the next thing I know I am awake again.
Strangely enough, I laid down for a nap after reading B.’s spider dream post and had my first semi-vivid dream in a year or more.
I was in a familiar enclosed shopping mall twenty miles from home. There was a million dollar prize being given away that day, and employees of the mall courteously went up to me before announcing on the loudspeaker that I had indeed won the prize. I was so damn excited! The employees let me know beforehand to give me a chance to prepare my affairs before everyone in the mall knew my name on the loudspeaker. I could see the million dollars in cash in a huge cardboard box, and there were a lot of angry Mafioso types milling about the mall talking about the contest. My dream ended in a huge bout of anxiety with my trying to figure how I will escape with the prize without any trouble or complications.
Now as for Rick, I hope my last post about whether he might be reading this blog doesn’t dissuade anyone from posting further about him. I think it’s likely he does read this blog, yet I also think if he was going to say anything here he would have done it by now. So we probably won’t ever hear anything from him.
Guru, I am contemplating about how to interpret your dream… maybe it means that money is not a commodity to aspire to having because all it brings is anxiety and fear of losing it?
And why are you concerned or worried about whether or not Rick is reading the blog? I would hope he is not, simply because I assume that he has better and more fulfilling things to do in life, yeah? 😉
Bernadette, I have to run to the grocer here shortly before it closes so can’t write much now. I will only say that just because I was intellectually curious as to whether or not Rick was reading the blog does not emotionally elevate to my being *worried* or *concerned* that he was reading the blog. I’ve never met him!
I’ll have to look at money and dreams a bit later on.
Guru, and all I am saying is that I think your “intellectual curiosity” is more than what it seems, because you have mentioned it several times…that’s just my feeling….
When I went back and reread the post where Renee brought up Rick’s incident, I found it even more glaringly outrageous than I had felt originally — Renee really tried to blow up the issue, dragging in hearsay, rumor and innuendo to accuse the Institute and staff of shameful neglect. I suspect her anger may have as much to do with the fact that she has never been privy to all the salient details that she craves, rather than her supposed outrage at Rick’s unethical stumble.
I also remembered Renee wrote something earlier about Chevy, that I didn’t pay attention to at the time — it was after Jack died, but rather than write about Jack, Renee wrote a poem saying that Chevy was “a gentle soul” and that his therapy had been “misguided” and ended up killing him — which casts blame on the Institute. Margaret pointed out that she had been one of his roommates, and although she felt sorry for him, he was “not an angel of gentleness really.” Chevy had a horrid childhood, was chronically depressed, and a lot of people in therapy repeatedly tried to help him, but he seemed to have no ‘spark’ left, to save himself. After leaving therapy, people tried to keep in touch with him, but lost all contact two years before finding out that he had died in 2013, probably from his cancer. I doubt that Renee hardly even knew Chevy, so I think likely this was another instance where she used him to express her own anger about P.T., indirectly.
Renee did write over a week ago: “Jack, I’m really missing you. And I’m also really angry with you. I don’t know if you remember, but I specifically told you please not to die. But you went ahead and died anyway. I know it wasn’t deliberate. But still. I wish you could come back. The blog is not the same without you.” I have to say, there is something about it that feels strange, almost morbid, I can’t quite put the feeling into words. Without expressing adult remembrance or sadness, and without expressing anything to Bernadette, who was daily involved with Jack until his end. But I did not know, until Bernadette wrote it, that they are no longer friends — so maybe that explains some of why Renee did not want to write about Jack. And that makes me wonder if Renee’s unexpressed anger is not only a way of targeting the Institute, and Gretchen, but also maybe Bernadette.
“The master’s tools will never dismantle the master’s house”. It’s about dismantling the house.
At the same time and on another level, it may simply be that Renèe feels utterly lonely and completely betrayed by life and would like to have some companion at the place she is at.
Thanks, Daniel — I had missed reading a lot of that discussion earlier, so I will have to go and get caught up, before understanding it.
And I am sure you’re right about Renee’s feeling “utterly lonely and completely betrayed by life”, as I have heard her say almost that. And having someone who clearly understands, may be necessary, to be able to feel what’s underneath.
I feel like that’s what happened to me in group today — prompted by Gretchen, I talked again about my dog dying, and how I had a lot of feelings about her, daily for several weeks at first, but that subsided, and since has brought up older feelings about my mom and my family, and my feeling all alone. Until someone simply said, “I’m sorry you lost your dog” and the dam broke, that I had not known was still there.
Vicki, I was surprised when Renee didn’t write anything about Jack when he died, like every other blogger did, this especially because she was involved in so many different conversations with him, over a long period of time, and only begged him not to die a few days before he died. I can understand that she didn’t want to express any sympathy to me, but I am surprised she didn’t realize that it was not just my loss, but the blogging community’s loss, to whom she could have expressed any sorrowful feelings, and could have been part of a grieving community. But I thought it’s her right not so say anything. Then when she posted the poem to Chevy, whom she hardly knew, I was surprised again, and it started to feel more like a disguised way to hurt me. That was my feeling and interpretation.
Considering Renee’s posting may have been designed to hurt the Institute in some way, why wasn’t Gretchen upset about this considering she actually LEADS the Institute? Gretchen seemed more curious about why Renee posted what she did rather than being upset as Bernadette or Vicki are about this. Should we find Gretchen’s apparent ambivalence towards Renee’s posting to be intriguing or informative in any way?
I found it interesting how Gretchen simply waxed philosophical about not everyone being cut out to be therapists, which is definitely true!
Guru, I think Gretchen remains a therapist, her role in this situation. Regardless of anyone else’s intent, or upset. I will guess you do know that already because, in the comments of the past few days, “crossing the line of what’s appropriate” has been mentioned and discussed numerous times, with regard to patient-therapist relationships. So I wonder about your ‘apparent ambivalence’ about this.
Vicki, did you think I was being smart-alecky or sarcastic when I posted? I wasn’t trying to do that. I’ve seen Gretchen come across as ‘angry’ on the blog a few times in the past without anyone questioning appropriateness, and I would surmise that a display of anger or being upset would be far more ethically innocuous than actually pursuing a relationship with said client (comparing apples and oranges). I’ve seen Viv and Mark scream upsets at people a few times too.
So again I wonder: Doesn’t it seem interesting Gretchen didn’t seem upset about this?
As for me, I will honestly tell you that I’ve had a fondness and appreciation for juicy gossip being reified out of barren nothingness since the days of religiously reading my aunt’s colorfully slick weekly National Enquirer and Sun magazines while sitting in the toilet during my pre-teen and teenage years. It’s the nature of the beast for me, deeply embedded in my unconscious.
Guru, this seems to imply that Renee is trying to elicit an angry reaction from Gretchen. I won’t get into analyzing Gretchen’s response, as that would only be an assumption based on my own feelings and limited interpretations. Your question “Doesn’t it seem interesting Gretchen didn’t seem upset about this?” is not really a question but a statement, like you already have an answer in mind, which you don’t disclose but seem to imply *something* doubtful or mysterious – just my feeling.
But besides that, why are you talking for Renee? Indeed, if Gretchen’s reaction simply “seemed more curious about why Renee posted what she did rather than being upset” it was – I assume – an invitation for Renee to explore her motives and give an honest answer.
Bernadette, Vicki said earlier that it seemed Renee was angry at the Institute and wanted to lash out indirectly at it (see Vicki’s 11/28 9:32 pm post). All I was doing was following her lead. Don’t blame me, blame the boss. I just work here.
Guru, maybe I misunderstood you. Just to clarify: are you implying that the angry or critical reaction some of us had to Renee are not justified because Gretchen didn’t have an angry reaction? Or are you implying that because some of us had an angry reaction to Renee, Gretchen should also have had an angry reaction, and there is something wrong because she didn’t? Either one wouldn’t make any sense. After all, we all are individuals and can only react from our own feelings. But logically, and that’s IMO, Gretchen is still the therapist and it would be improper for her to engage in an anger struggle with Renee. Her role is to step back and outside of the struggle and point us in the right direction. That’s why I assumed that her curiosity about Renee’s motive was an invitation for her to come clean.
Bernadette, I am saying there is a good chance Gretchen is operating with a broader pool of knowledge about the situation than the rest of us are. Was your anger justified? Yes, definitely, but only within the limited framework of knowledge you may be working with as opposed to what Gretchen may be working with.
EXAMPLE: I punch someone in the gut, painfully, forcing that person to vomit. OUCH! That person has every right to be mad at me. But what if I knew that that person had just drunk some poisoned tea that was going to kill him in an hour unless I forced a vomiting response? And I didn’t want to put that person through the emotional trauma of knowing his wife poisoned the tea wanting to kill him since the more urgent task was to save his life?
If the tea drinker operates from the expanded pool of knowledge I was working with, the tea drinker being upset with me would make less sense in that case. Literally thanking me profusely for punching him without warning would make more sense as I was actively saving his life.
Just a silly example to illustrate what I meant more clearly. I’m sure there are better examples to express my point, but it’s the best I can do on five minutes’ notice here.
Guru, that’s right, I can only operate within my limited framework of knowledge and within my feelings. That’s what I did. If I was wrong or stepped outside of my framework, then maybe someone, or most likely Renee should enlighten me, I am open to hearing it. But so far there is only silence. Except you talking for her, which is still a mystery as to why you would do that.
I still don’t understand what you mean by my ‘talking for Renee’. I was simply agreeing with and trusting Vicki’s earlier judgments. It doesn’t seem fair that you would say I am talking for Renee, but Vicki wasn’t. How come I am the scapegoat?
Guru, I did not think you were being smart-alecky or sarcastic, I thought you were fishing for something from Gretchen, or speculation from others here.
Vicki, I definitely believed your analysis and advice on how to cope with my predator neighbor overrunning my ‘smoldering miasmic and obsessive’ thoughts to be brilliantly valuable morsels for me to chew on, but in this instance with Gretchen/Jo/Bernadette I’m afraid you are missing the mark a lot more.
I say this as sincerely as I possibly can. Maybe Gretchen and Renee are the ones practicing misdirection by staying so quiet while I am the heroic one calling out the silence?
Ug, I find it interesting that you didn’t directly address the above questions directly to Gretchen, after all, you know she reads everything here.
Jo, there’s nothing deeper here. I was lazily posting to the end of the blog instead of taking a minute hunting around for Gretchen’s post. My not directly tethering my post to Gretchen’s wasn’t a fear-based action, for if that was the case I wouldn’t have posted my thought at all. Gretchen could certainly respond to my post (since as you said, she reads everything) disavowing my observation and revealing she truly was upset about what Renee did.
Guru, in your responses to me, Bernadette, and Jo, I think you are afraid, and evading directly responding. I’m guessing it may be because you really want Gretchen to write about being upset, because you keep repeating those words and ignoring questions about your own thoughts and feelings about it. Just because you used misdirection at a retreat to get Vivian to focus on others, rather than you, doesn’t mean it will keep on working here — even if you are good at it, through long years of honing that ability to the edge of an instinct.
Vicki, good observation.
Guru, still time to say what you feel/think, if you are up to it.
Actually, it’s the other way around: The more boring, standard, and expected response would be for Gretchen to be upset about what Renee did. The fact that Gretchen did NOT display such upset tells me she is possibly privy to insider information that you, me, and Bernadette do not have and such information has given Gretchen sufficient cause to not be upset with Renee as you or Bernadette seemed to be, at least at first.
So yeah the more intriguing response was her NOT being upset, so it makes no sense for me to hope Gretchen would display being upset.
Guru, this is also a partial answer to my question above (November 29, 2020 at 6:49 pm). Still. a question remains: why are you so obsessed about Gretchen having or not having an angry response to Renee? So what if she has insider information? Are you implying that Vicki and I are not supposed to have an angry response? or an angry reply to Renee is not justified?
My tea drinker example in my previous post helps address this.
Daniel,
thanks for your post, it did make me realize more how indeed the therapeutic setting has a huge impact and outside of it those people would not react in the same way probably.
yours and the other comments made me realize more the importance of protective rules.
yesterday evening I had a huge long cry triggered by the worry about my brother, the intensity of it was surprising, but the tears felt so welcome and healing, and all kind of nice childhood memories kept coming up, him and me played so much together, mostly outdoors if possible, we had a lot of nature around to roam through and play indian and indian in, as none of us wanted to be the cowboy…
this morning he said he felt a little bit better, but his voice still sounded incredibly coarse. he was just about to leave to get himself tested.
Bernadette, he lives in the netherlands, and their health care is ruled much more by economics than ours here in Belgium, so your advice might be good but would not be listened to at all. I am already glad he got the green light for a test at this point.
still scary but at least he will be examined…
Margaret
good news!
i had my brother on the phone this morning and he sounded much better.
he said he had a brief antibiotics treatment laying around at home, which he took and which had seemed to help.
then this afternoon he got the results from his Corona test and they were negative!
it is just great to hear him in a better shape, and he promised to stay home long enough to recover well.
I did not say anything about what I heard from my own doctor, that negative results have a thirty percent of false negatives, which should have given a positive result.
if the antibiotics worked, it was probably a bacterial infection anyway, it is just great to feel less worried!
tomorrow with my sister at my mom, we will take many pictures and videos and video chat with him to share some of mom’s birthday, be it virtually.
I told him I will really miss him there.
all the presents, flowers and flowery plants are already packed to go, tomorrow morning I will call a taxi and pick up my sister on the way with all her stuff.
I told her I want to take it easy at mom’s, not unpack a lot at the time, but do it gradually so none of us get overloaded with too much going on.
so circumstances have not been easy but we make the best of it still, and plan a second birthday party when my brother can be there as well!
Margaret
Margaret, I am so glad to hear that your brother is doing better! What a relief! I have an older brother, too, he is 66 this year, and I would be out of my mind with fear, if he got sick with Covid. We also have many shared memories from our childhood, some bad ones, but also many good ones. We used to roam around the countryside and the forests and climb up rocks and build huts in the woods and down by the stream. There were some great summers.
Have a wonderful celebration tomorrow with your mother!
Margaret, very good news. Seems like a full and speedy recovery is underway. Your description of the playing you and your brother had during your childhood reminded me of my own sister and the playing we had. We too were surrounded by nature and open spaces and I have good memories (and bad ones as well) from that time with her.
Bernadette, I really liked the way you put it, the way you capture within a single sentence the elusiveness of interpersonal life :
Guru, have some juicy gossip to share?
I think the blog would be better served if Renee posted at this time rather than myself. It’s definitely understandable if she said, “Ugh, FUCK this blog I’m done with it!” after being acutely criticized by four different people. It would make it super hard for me to want to come back, as I absolutely hate being dogpiled and picked apart by a small mob of posters.
Guru, so after saying that you have “a fondness and appreciation for juicy gossip”, as soon as Daniel asks you for some juicy gossip, you immediately change direction! “Almost” as if you just don’t want anyone turning their attention to you, as if that alone is scary. And yes, I am not letting you off the hook — I am waiting to see if you will dig yourself a deeper hole, or maybe find a better way of responding to direct questions, if you can. 🙂
(My response to this is in my previous post.)
“Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.” ~Sigmund Freud
That is true, but I don’t believe it, about you. Too much tap-dancing, and also too many times of repetition, in the past. It’s your pattern. But your problem, so I just stop mentioning it.
That’s your feeling and I’m not responsible for that.
Gretchen used to tell me that & I incorporated it as one of my favorite phrases, even bouncing it back and forth with my dad sometimes. Even dad would use it against me for fun & he never went near Primalling.
The phrase seems to have an Orange County Republican ‘every person for themselves’ etymology to it. Selfish in a cute way, I guess.
Since 12-18 hours have passed with nary a pipsqueak from the blog, I will courteously add, “Don’t burden yourselves quietly waiting for more information from me. I’m done posting for now, so feel free to say whatever you want.”
I haven’t as yet weighed in on Renee’s comment about Rick Janov, which currently seems to be a popular topic. The comment didn’t impact me as I never met him and wasn’t around in therapy when that incident happened. I can’t see how it would be relevant to bring up now, except as some expression of anger or dissatisfaction toward the Institute.
Phil
And it might feel this way to you, but it is also not “being dogpiled and picked apart by a small mob of posters.” So whatever you’re feeling, just say it, and come back.
Ha, you must be counting me as one of the mob as well, Guru. I asked you before (above) why are you talking for Renee? And then you get all defensive when “the mob” speaks the truth? BTW, there is no mob, and there is no dogpiling and picking apart, that’s your feeling. If we cannot speak our truth and explore our feelings on this blog, then what is it there for? Polite intellectual conversation and neatly allocated footnotes and references? BS!!
Daniel, thanks for noticing. I am still working on a comment to your post on the 27th.
Renee, it was my mistake to assume that you had an ulterior motive or are trying to retaliate against the Institute when you brought up the Rick issue. It was my assumption and based in my own feelings and instincts, which are subject to their own limitations. In truth, I know little or nothing about your motives and intentions. All I can guess is that you have your own unresolved feelings about it, or you would not have brought up an incident that happened 20+ years ago. That only you know. And it is up to you to address those inner conflicts. For me it was useful to look at and resolve some of my own conflicts about it, so in a way I am glad you brought it up.
i feel bad. too bad to say more about it. i feel bad. fuck this shit.
Otto, I read your post yesterday with great interest. I was quite impressed with how much information and feelings you revealed this time. Keep going.
Your story about the spider in the crawl space and your intense fear at night in bed, wow! That really struck a chord in me. I know that intense fear at night, in the pitch dark, barley able to breathe, or not wanting to breathe for fear of being heard, detected, given away, not being able to move, paralyzed, heart pounding-too loud!, sweat pouring down the face, eye wide open staring into the dark. OMG. It brings up such a memory! Your fear was of a dangerous spider; mine was of an intruder who was going to hurt me.
You are saying you have no memories of age 2-5; those were my worst years too. Most of my deepest traumas, aside from birth, are between those ages. I am also stunned how unstable your childhood was. That must really have an impact on you. Not having a stable home, being moved around, not only between locations but also from relatives to relatives. As traumatizing as my childhood was, at least I had a place to call home, and I was always in the same family, although a lot of hurt was inflicted in my family. I used to say that I am more attached to certain locations that gave me some safety, rather than to people, who are not so much reliable feeling wise.
Were you able to call your brother for his birthday? I get the sense, even though you are saying you don’t like talking to him – maybe you are angry with him, maybe you are hurt – I have a sense that you still love him. Correct me if I’m wrong.
I have a feeling that talking about your childhood is bringing up more memories and with the memories more pain. Keep writing, Otto!
Otto, in addition, when you wrote above “I am not trying to distract or shift focus away from your current feeling/topic as if I was a mini-trump” – you are not distracting or shifting focus away from anything. There is room for all of us. I have room for more than one feeling/topic. There is time for you. Your posts are honest and raw and very relatable. Keep writing!
PS: you are not even a tiny-trump (smile).
Caption anyone?
https://twitter.com/NeverSociaIism/status/1332916294811852800?s=20
https://twitter.com/NeverSociaIism/status/1333151357835096067?s=20
AOC: Never before have the masculine and feminine powers melded in such exquisite splendor; and never before has it evoked more controversial feelings – desirable and infuriating, awe-inspiring and frightening; accessible and unobtainable…
One of my favorite writers referenced those AOC tweets above:
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2020/11/theres-something-happening-here-4
Guru, good one! Gave me the opportunity to see Nutch Nutch Wink Wink again on YouTube….LOL
Thanks everyone for your feedback. It has left me with a lot to think about and reflect on. In hindsight, I think the posting about Peter Yarrow just triggered my anger and dislike for people in positions of power who abuse the trust they have been given. A very legitimate anger, IMO. It also left me wondering how often such people ever get held accountable for their behavior. Hence my question about Rick Janov. Btw, he was the one that came to mind on this subject as many of us here have a shared knowledge of what happened.
Daniel, I particularly liked what you wrote on this subject. It felt good to see that we do indeed have something we agree on!
I’m enormously surprised you were able to handle scathing criticism from several people with the stoicism you apparently have. I likely would not have fared so well and treated it as a possibly unrecoverable blow.
Thanks, Ugg! I appreciate the compliment. I actually think that you are much wiser and way more resilient that you give yourself credit for. You can be very hard on yourself.
OK Renee, your post leads me to ask you an ultra-serious question: What are you meaning that I can be very hard on myself? I do see the immediate instance of where I said I wouldn’t handle the criticism as well as you did, but are there other incidents you have in mind from earlier than today? Any patterns you’re seeing that I should look at?
Any observations you might have here could be some valuable keys for my self-therapy, just as what Vicki talked about earlier with my extracting myself from the internal miasma over my predator neighbors.
Thanks if you share some more details.
I’m sorry Ugg, but I don’t have more details. It’s a general feeling I have about you.
Although I would love to know what unconscious processes led you to your feeling, an equally important question might be, “What percentage of people has Renee seen does she also deem as hard on themselves as well?” If she sees a large percentage of people as hard on themselves this would potentially dilute the import of the observation, whereas a tiny percentage draws the observation into a much sharper relief warranting further examination of myself even without further details as to why its needed.”
I would have to trust that Renee would not tell me she has seen several million people in her lifetime and I am the only one she assigned the ‘hard on myself’ diagnosis. That indeed would be torturous!
Thinking about this some more…
I now see I am mistaken about the tiny possibility that it would be torturous if I was the ONLY ONE with the ‘hard on myself’ diagnosis out of an observation of millions of people. Such uniqueness would command special attention (ie. ‘You are the most self-torturing of all in a crowd of millions, which merits an extra special notice all its own’)
It’s best to be placed in the bottom 15 to 20 percent of masochists, to be the true embodiment of the agony of being non-descript, nothing special which stands out from the crowd.
Guru, sorry to bud in – instead of trying to figure something out intellectually and statistically, maybe you should just try to accept Renee’s compliment, let it sit for a while, and see what feelings it brings up. Just a suggestion.
My favorite music club in NYC is closing, because of Covid related financial pressure. It’s very upsetting, but I hope they’ll find a way to reopen in the future. I’m afraid many cultural attractions could close because of the pandemic, Although some things are open, I don’t think it’s worth the risk to attend any event which attracts a crowd. Vaccines are coming soon, but not soon enough.
Phil
Phil, did you read James Altrucher’s COVID-related “New York Is Dead Forever” essay?
https://nypost.com/2020/08/17/nyc-is-dead-forever-heres-why-james-altucher/
The essay caught the negative attention of Jerry Seinfeld & now these two are at each others’ throats. Altrucher is adamant New York will never bounce back.
Guru, I think Trump and Covid have been great for the media, people put out all kinds of things that get attention. I looked at the article and right off saw that James Altrucher is a comedian and hedge fund manager, so I don’t know why he would have special insight.
I think that NYC will bounce back. When Covid is under control tourists will return and life will continue as before.
A few weeks ago I saw another article saying that wealthy folks who fled Manhattan last Spring are now returning, because they miss all the perks.
Phil
The blog got so quiet lately. I have something to write about. On the way home from work today, in my car, some feelings were coming up, so I put on music to help. Maybe because things are kind of desolate and so routine for me at work. There’s few people to talk to, and I feel unimportant. I’m dissatisfied with what I’m doing. I should have a better position, making more money. Why didn’t I study to be a doctor? I was a good student. That would have given me satisfaction and feelings of importance. I did do better in the past with my career, but it went downhill. I had various priorities, my job, my family etc. It was impossible to have everything the way I wanted it, even now.
The music helps me go deeper into the feeling, it’s about my mother. I really needed her. In fact it felt like that’s all I wanted, nothing else, nobody else, at least in this feeling, which I’m afraid is huge. I needed her to stay around and see me as important, and love me, remember me. That didn’t happen. I don’t remember getting much of anything from her, well, more accurately, I got nothing; when she had some health, and it was possible, and it only got worse over time. The feeling is of terrible longing and need, never satisfied. She forgot me completely, deprived me, which leaves me feeling like I have had big parts of myself missing.
Later she was so sick, that it wasn’t possible to get anything from her, but I still hoped. Then she was gone for good, and somehow I still had hope. I guess I need to feel how hopeless it really was.
All this made me realize, this must be why I’m so often in a down feeling, like I don’t care about much of anything, I have no energy, etc, etc.
Phil
Phil, it sounds like a big feeling you are having. It looks like you have found where to go with your feelings.
S
Hi Sylvia, did you receive my mail from a few days ago? Ever since my mail to Bernadette was lost in spam, I have to be more vigilant about checking these things. Thanks.
HSISG, yes, no spam worries, I did receive your mail about your great aunt’s love of the National Enquirer and other tabloids. Did you have fun discussing those with her at the time?
Haha…well, she subscribed to the Enquirer and I think one other tabloid, while the neighbor who cleaned house for her had a subscription to one or two other tabloids as well. It was a neighborhood exchange. Example would be..my aunt would have the Enquirer mailed to her on a Monday and possess it for a day or two, handing it off to me on a Wednesday, her saying “God, what a trashy rag that is! Just garbage and lies!” while absolutely keeping a loyal subscription going for decades. I’d give the Enquirer (and I think the Sun UK) back to my aunt on Friday so she could trade them to the cleaning lady neighbor for the neighbor’s own two tabloids which my aunt and I took turns religiously reading while waiting for the newest ‘boss tabloid’ (the Enquirer) to arrive the next week..
Four supermarket tabloids for the price of two each week.
The Enquirer was the standard-bearer with its colorful, glossy pages and tendency to adhere to reliable gossip sources more than the other pages. There was a strange, unwritten ‘leadership’ role of my aunt since her subscriptions were more expensive than the cleaning lady neighbor’s.
Colorful glamor and gossipy celebrities really have a visceral appeal for a lot of people. Donald Trump understood this power, hence his close relationship with David Pecker (Nat’l Enquirer boss).
If your tabloid has:
–Slick and glossy pages, saturated with vivid color appeal as you see on scratch off lottery tickets
–At least 40% truth mixed in with bullshit, but you have to guess which is which
–Lots of excitement around well-known celebs
Those ingredients will make your tabloid enormously successful, like the Enquirer. After some years of reading, I was able to more skillfully discern what was bullshit and what was more factual. Some tabloids were more inferior than others. At least one of the four was almost all lies and was on dull, matted paper (unappealing).
You have tantalize the reader with lots of glossy, celebrity color and still-significant morsels of truth (30-40%) embedded within the stories to keep imaginations active and hungering for more, more, MORE next week.
Guru,
Maybe you could publish your own tabloid. The first issues could be about Peter, Paul, and Mary. which would appeal to older folks.
Rick Janov could appear too, because “primal screaming” is still commonly referred to and remembered fondly, people might have an interest. I’m sure you could find plenty to say about John Lennon, as well as Donald Trump and his royal family, but you’ll need a good lawyer. Michael Cohen?
Phil
Funny stuff, Phil! I think working in a lab is a total waste of your comedic talents. 😃
Ha ha. Despite all the deprivation you experienced as a kid, you never lost your sense of humour.
Phil, knowing what I know now of my mother’s background, profession, and intentions I doubt very seriously I would have been anywhere near supermarket tabloids if she had raised me. She was all about serious, big-league corporate business and would have had no time for tabloid gossip, for the most part.
My grand aunt was a retired, semi-affluent widow who had no children of her own, so she had sufficient empty time and dullness in her life to seek the artificial excitement of colorful, gossipy tabloids..
Guru,
I think people should read whatever they want. In my childhood home we probably had too much reading material of various kinds. The idea, I guess, was to get distracted from all the painful things going on.
Wow. Much insight, Phil.
I had a kind of follow up feeling today, helped along again by music, or my attempts at music on my saxophone. Many months ago my teacher suggested I pick a song I’d like to learn to play from books of sheet music, as a kind of long term project. I found several candidates including the Beatles song “In My Life”, which I ended up choosing. It also happens to also be in my library of songs which I find helpful with feelings. I had some worries that my attempts at playing it on my sax would somehow ruin that effect. That hasn’t at all been the case. It took me a long time to learn, but I can now play it all the way through, and I can hear how I’d like it to sound, in my head, as I’m playing it. Tonight the feelings were about my father, how I needed his help, I wanted him to do something about my mother, save her; “don’t let her go”, were the words that came out. But in reality I never expressed anything like that during childhood. I really couldn’t be vulnerable around him. There was a barrier, it wouldn’t be OK to show anything like that. The feelings tonight also went deep, the need and love for him. Phil
Wow. You are making your therapy move along.
Larry, yes I think it is, but I do have to revisit things very many times. Thanks for reading my stuff.
Otto,
how are you doing?
M
Phil,
reading your story and trying to imagine how it must have felt for you is so incredibly sad and hopeless, and still you made yourself a good life with a good family, that is quite an achievement…
M
Margaret,
That I might have achieved something, that’s nice to say, but it won’t take away this feeling.
Phil
I hate my frigging job with a passion. I am allowed to work from home, for covid protection, and it took months of wrangling just to get that option. I have to do different tasks than if I were actually at work, and that involves me having to re-learn duties I did years ago and also new stuff that has emerged since I did this kind of stuff before. I feel like I am competing against these younger guys in my new work group and they have had almost 3 years of learning the many many skills that are needed. It was such a struggle to get this job, and I feel like the boss wants to get rid of me (whether this is real or imagined). If he got rid of me, I would have to use up the remaing 10 weeks of sick leave I have left, and after that, actually go back to work and risk covid. I risk covid and a certain death for my age and health, we watched grey’s anatomy last night, where she is on the verge of dying from covid, and so I had a nightmare of being in some chilling room under a freeway, all alone, and murder-death-kill surrounding me in the shadows, moving towards me. I was trying to scream, and maybe I was a little more successful in getting the screams out than I have been in the past. I woke up B with my noise. I am not sure of which of the old memories of doom take me to this recurring nightmare. Maybe a very early hernia operation, my mom disappearing at my age of 10 months, then being alone and in the dark, then the same loneliness and fear with an uncle who seemed to be all about killing things. I have been near-death early on. I am deathly afraid of death, especially since I ended up old somehow, and then covid came along too. Of course, poor Sophie dying a month ago has put another chill into me. Anyway, I hate my new job, I feel pressured because I am incompetent and afraid, afraid of the younger smarter guys in our small group. I feel like they are complaining to my new boss that I am producing very little. I have made 2 mistakes so far and he im’d me and it felt very criticizing to me, the way he said it. B is tired of me ranting throughout the day, which is my only release from this crippling pressure. Many many feelings here.
I’m glad this blog is here to provide you with some release Otto.
Testing.
larry,
release .001 (point zero zero one) out of a 10 (ten point zero zero)
but thanks for you being such a sweet, caring guy (no fooling!)
you are doing well for yourself in your life
don’t mind me
my bitterness puts the grinch to shame
of course i should get in my car
and either scream and shout or cry
or just find joy for the fucking briefest of seconds
and of course with millions starving and homeless these days, i feel like an asshole
a powerless asshole
trump will be alive even after he is long gone into the black
how one man (and there are so many ONE MAN(s) like him) can fuck up so many people —
well that tells me mother nature just don’t give a damn
send your boulders from outer space to crush us all at your whim, ma’am
not a fucking thing we can do about it
even bruce willis can only save a few of us
since i cannot draw worth shit, that is the most of a political cartoon i can make
i logged on here to say something profound, but now i don’t care
I like to read it, cause of the way you write about and reveal your soul.
i hear the pounding of her feet as she gets up
(and remember, i hate myself for my hatreds)
i hear her and grump to myself that my clear thinking will now stop because of her noise
not– oh god i cant wait to hug her and praise god that she came into my life
old woman me
old tired disappointed-in-life woman me
she will stop me from playing with bills and other todo’s
those things are the most important things in my life
at this point in being old and worn out i forget what those todo’s were
i put them on a spreadsheet so i can forget them again and again
the pounding of the feet is from decades ago
an ugly old murderer uncle
an ugly ancient institution known as death
probably disrupting me from occupying my lonely baby mind and reminding me that someone is coming to kill me or otherwise fill me up with losses
anyway who the fuck wants to clean house, pay bills etc
just stay inside or die says fauci
no joy without the fucking dog
joy negative one billion out of ten
the real thing is, i dread her bursting through my bedroom door, dripping with need
when are you going to fix this?
i need something
i need something more, times one zillion
lets move to ohio
lets move to santa maria
lets abandon these stupid cats
not– what can i do to make it better?
what do normal spouse do?
just fucking make my life happier?
no, because all i really want for christmas is to be miserable
i repel happy
remember. i am a hateful miserable asshole bitch and hate myself for being so
and this will never change
primal therapy helped me .001 out of 10
because my pain is in the stratosphere
‘nuf said. christmastime again
Otto, I’m glad you write on the blog, I hope it helps.
Wow. That is poetry. Brings me right into your life.
hi all,
I am in a short lunch break from our training Zoom group for the phone helpline.
i start feeling really privileged to form part of this group.
in the exercises I start to know more of the new trainees, and I feel impressed at how many of them actually already have full lives while they started this volunteer work training.
some of them are still studying, one for neurologist, one for psychology, one just finished sociology and criminology. one is a female doctor working in a hospital, and others are recently retired from all kinds of jobs.
and that is just a handful of the 19 remaining trainees who started together with me.
it strikes me what a positive attitude they must have to combine already busy lifes with this extra volunteer job, and the extended training that goes along with it.
we had one exercise in which we had a list of qualities and could attach those in turns to others of a small subgroup we were working in.
it was very touching, specially when I got given some qualities with the reasons why the person gave them to me, and later on could react to it.
it felt so bonding, so much working to feel part of the group and getting to know the others in a constructive way.
ok, off for the afternoon part now…
M
today’s Zoom training for the telework has ended, but I still feel so ‘up’, and astounded about its positive impact, on me but also seemingly on most of the other trainees.
the theory and exercises of today were about the ‘positive’ approach, not problem oriented (only) but also aimed at exploring together with the caller which ways for improvement there could be.
in one one on one exercise I again got to know another trainee more personally, this time a lady who worked all over the world, Asia, Africa, South America, as a kind of coordinator for the Red Cross.
it is so incredibly inspiring and invigorating to be part of this group, with all the feedback that goes back and forth, specially today with its focus on each others qualities , and for example having to make a list of 20 things that give us personally a good feeling in our life, and then going over these lists with another person.
very connecting and bonding, and also addressing primal feelings in a constructive way, really nice!
it is great when for example my starting feeling is one of fear of ‘not belonging’, ‘not being able to be part of the group’, not being accepted’, or even ‘being rejected or disapproved of’, and then unexpectedly getting very positive feedback almost out of the blue from various sides.
it is touching and healing and very real at the same time, as we are all there as trainees and thus vulnerable and more or less new to each other.
but more and more we get to know and appreciate each other, and it feels immensely enriching…
M
Margaret,
That seems like such a great thing you’re getting involved with.
Margaret,
That seems like such a great thing you’re getting involved with.
I’m writing about a reaction I had to posts I read months ago and am finally doing it. It’s after the death of Jack Waddington and I read about what a great job Chris did of putting together a tribute to him and also I can see the talent Bernadette has in writing and expressing herself. That put me into a panic state and the feeling that came up with it was ‘I can’t do that’
It’s something new for me to panic about this,
seeing people being capable.
Lately I have been getting into panic states often and it’s scary, with other triggers as well.
I thought if I wrote about this it might help me understand what’s happening
Mary Z
It’s good that you wrote, Mary. I had panic every time I wrote on the blog. It helped just to feel that over the months. I generally had a lot of panic and startle reaction when I was a baby and toddler, according to my mom. It might be that your panic reaction is from a very early time and it gets triggered when you worry about something as an over reaction.
As to the reason that you feel you should be able to do something like organize a tribute is a different question. I know I probably could not do that either, but I just appreciate someone who can and marvel a bit about it. I’ve always had a lot of respect for those here who can put their thoughts down so clearly, I think that is what I wanted to achieve the most, and I think by clearing my head of triggered feelings, in essence, feeling, I can have a less busy mind and put down my thoughts better now. It sounds a little like you feel responsible for things that you really are not expected to do, if I had a guess, about your worry of the memorializing events for Jack. Thank you for writing.
S
I was thinking, too, maybe a helpless feeling of not being able to do something well or capably, in just thinking about it, might bring up a panic feeling from an early time of physical or emotional survival during babyhood or in later childhood.
S
Hi Mary, I hate to bring this up since you are clearly suffering from panic or angst at others’ abilities and I don’t want to stand in the way of your therapeutic progress there (feel free to stay here and work it out all you want), but….
I’ve been trying for months and months trying to contact your ex-boyfriend from a long time ago (you know who I am talking about?). He never returns my calls anymore and I am also concerned something may have happened to him. I mean literally 6 months’ worth of attempts without any response. I finally gave up, yet it doesn’t seem as though he would block me for no reason so I’m not even sure if he is alive now. Do you know anything?
It’s really disconcerting because I have all his contact info.
I’m sorry I have to bring this up right in the middle of your own struggle; I felt as though my options are extremely slim and you’re one of the few leads I have left.
I hope your panic gets better. People generally put on their best face forward for daily survival reasons and they are usually dumber than you might think with a few exceptions cherry-picked at my discretion. Good luck.
The situation is so bad regarding not hearing from him that I have considered personally coming out to Los Angeles to see if he is still at his physical address. An enormous hassle for me, but I could arrange it if I really had to.
Two big things deter me:
–He might not want to see me anymore, but this makes no sense because he would be direct in saying to me that he no longer wanted to be friends. Still, though, if that is true (which I doubt) then I wouldn’t want to travel to see someone who didn’t want to see me
and..or…
–He simply died. In which case I am sure either family or locals took care of his burial arrangements and it would be a moot point for me.
Both of the reasons above have been a large deterrence to my checking in person overall, but I still like to try remotely when I can.
After waking up I wanted to fill in a few extra details. We’ve been friends for almost 20 years and he came to visit me at my home several times. He really liked my dad, a LOT! The last time I spoke with him was sometime in 2019 and we were speaking to each other normally. No tension, no animosity, no anger, no weird issues hanging overhead.
Just the same as always for almost 20 years and suddenly takes no calls from me ever again, completely unexplained.
This is the trouble of what I think my 2 year-old brain went through with my mother. Perfectly healthy and pretty 30 year-old lady who loved me dearly, had no problems hugging me, cuddling me, kissing me, or playing with me (at least after she returned home from work).
But then one day she just never came back. No explanation, no reason, no warning. That’s just…it!
Is she coming back? No clue. Just empty air day after day,
So yes I suppose what happened with Mary’s ex (no fault of hers at all) faintly echoes my distant past.
I remember watching the original “Wonder Woman” with Lynda Carter and her famous pair of silver bracelets. I would ask my grand uncle, who had some metalworking experience, if he could fashion a pair of bracelets for me like Wonder Woman had, so I could spin around and have disappearing superpowers like my mom had (similar to Lynda Carter spinning around from everyday woman to Wonder Woman).
I can see how the unexplained disappearance of your friend would resonate with that confusing early time of a toddler. It’s all interconnected, our reactions, whether we want them to be or not, consciously or unconsciously.
S
Sorry Mary, I was significantly triggered by your appearance. I’ll shut up now and welcome you to the blog. Hope I hear of what happened to your ex one day, regardless.
Good for you for using this blog to help you Mary. I hope it helps and you keep using it (us).
the minute she gets up, i lose all hope. not sure if that is my childhood with my grandmother (or some other nefarious parent-type) or my poor wife. i spent an hour washing dishes,, 90 percent were hers. she will have the entire sink full of dishes again by dusk. i can’t hire a maid to come clean because her nose will be full of covid-drops. i would not care so much but i need the plumber (with his mouth full of covid-drops) to come, and if the house looks so terrible, like it does now, he will tell the landlady and she will sell this house to some developer to put up cheap apartments, and we will be living in the fucking desert. it has been months since we have needed the plumber to come to unclog the drain pipes. they are overflowing into the yard and i am terrified the neighbors will report me to the city. luckily just the washing machine, kitchen sink, and shower/bath, not toilet. yes i am dripping with fear every second. and i don’t want to let go of the fear, i don’t want anyone to help me, i don’t want anyone to see me and destroy me. i am paralyzed with fear yet i work 50 hours a week helping customers with their computer probles. maybe i will talk to barry about this tomorrow, but i can’t say a word about this in group. it is too crazy to believe. my poor wife. has my craziness over the past 44 years made her crazy too? or is she also crazier than batshit since childhood. i probably put too many details in here; run past the feelings. i fear the men in the white suits will be alerted if i don’t sound like i have some tiny bit of sanity.
I don’t see that you put anything in there that you haven’t already told us or implied before, just maybe you’re being more explicit and clear this time, which seems like progress to me.
mary z. good to hear you. it was always good to hear you in group. why do i feel slight sadness when i wrote that? i just can’t figure out why.
just the millionth loss, i guess. that group became impossible for me.
Hi Mary!
I am glad to hear you.
the last time is or seems years ago, and you were in a very difficult situation then.
it always stayed in the back of my mind and I hoped you found a solution…
how are you doing now? apart from the panic feelings I mean, is your living situation more stable?
your situation back then would freak me out, so scary.
we have been buddies at a retreat and I like your strength combined with openness about your vulnerability.
I hope so much you have people to rely on and a more stable and safe living situation.
good to hear you here, I hope to hear more of you,
with affection, Margaret
The holidays alway bring up feelings for me. I guess because my family emphasized Christmas a lot, not religiously, but family gatherings and gift giving, and it’s the same with my family now.
So I have a lot of strong associated memories.
I like Christmas music and it can also bring up feelings. Today I had some big ones. I guess, to begin with, it’s very sad to no longer have all those family members I remember from my childhood.
That sadness led to other things. I remember good times with my brother, but later on he went crazy, and I’m realizing more and more how scary that was for me. I think my mother went crazy too, which was why I couldn’t stand visiting her. It was really terrible. I can’t really say I have good holiday memories about her. I think the two of them, mother and brother, both being crazy really scared me and that’s part of what I was remembering and feeling.
Our family situation was far from normal, and that was a part of everything that happened, even during some holiday happiness, and that’s what I was crying about today.
Phil
” I’ll Be Home for Christmas,” makes me sob, tears me to pieces. The reality is I am alone. My asset, being genuinely kind and caring, has no currency anymore. My criminally imposed financial poverty has crashed my ability to be benevolent. My newly acquired inabiity to quietly suffer bull shit, misogyny, racists, classism, contempt for, ” lesser thans,” is further isolating. I stopped performing years ago, no songs Iwant to mouth because they do nt represent me, who I am, my values. I would volunteer in palliative care, if it was not in a hospital setting. I don’t fear dying but I don’r want the cause to be strangling for breath. That would scare the shit out of me. We have lawful assisted suicide here, but friends working in health tell me viral infection does not meet the, ” impending death,” requirement.
Woke in the night, death fright, my head was in a vice, crushing my cheekbones. I got up and sat in a chair until I dialogued away the feelings. I ended up turning on TV/ROKU and watched some of the Trump/Giuliani/Powell/Wood, Republican Crazy Circus Comedic Tragedy Show. Then music theory, then comedy. Then, I was watchng it through my mother’s eyes, her filter, like I was her, we were one. I was looking out through her eyes, her face emerging from my face, her craziness, the smug, controlling, ” I’ve got control of you, I’ll do whatever I want with you,” behind that sardonic, evil, innappropriate smile. This was an absolute first for me, being aware of seeing life through her eyes, and, oh shit, actually living it, pulling away, wanting someone to make me feel better. Fuck, I’ve lived my life, in some part, through her eyes. I just resigned as Chair of a charity, because the Treasurer has that same grin, same behaviour. If the New Agers are right, ( of Course, if they are, Trump is Jesus,” more moral, kinder brother,”) I sure fucked up picking the mother I was born out of..
and worse, I created my kids’ fuck up by marrying a woman who could…. oh fuck, fuck, fuck…
Phil, I have always liked Christmas music, too, It was especially important to me when I was in a particularly painful period in the early ’80s, when I was so raw and fragile with feelings, that for long months, for years, it was too painful for me to even listen to music. Even though I had a large collection of music, whenever I tried listening to any of it, it was just so painful, it hurt, and I had to make it stop. I was working in the Post Office then, and sometimes had to put in earplugs when the office had music playing in the background, to try and avoid crying while I worked sorting mail, before going out on my route.
The fact that it hurt to listen to music I knew I had loved, was scary, and made me grieve for the state I was in, and pain I had come to. But by experimenting, I found I could listen to Christmas music — it was not too full of pain. So I went and bought more Christmas music, and was listening to it in June and July. Even though it struck me as weird, at least I could enjoy it, and feel more human than I was fearing. I hoped I would eventually recover my ability to listen to all my music, in time. It happened gradually over years. There are still a couple of things I might find too painful — that I haven’t tried in years, so I am not sure whether they would still bother me.
Writing about this, makes me wonder what that “no music” time was about — hurting too much to enjoy something basic, that “everybody likes”. This was in a tough time in my early therapy, and I just think I had no defenses working, and was constantly overwhelmed by old feelings in a generalized way, unable to put up any barriers, so all my feelings seemed poignant, all the time. It was commonly excruciating, and horrible. I see now that I could go on about this period for far too long for one sitting, so I will end it for now. But I’m sure I will need to write more, some other time. What happens when I open a door.
Just a quick note, Vicki, I had the same problem with music, it let up too much emotion for me about 10 yrs ago and a few yrs before. I was fragile and could not take it. I could play jingle bells on the piano or listen to Christmas music on tv, but all other music made me feel unbearably lonely. Then I saw where Janov wrote that music can open feelings so I tried listening to love songs and began to feel a little at a time. Music still puts me into my feelings and I now can enjoy the albums I collected over the years.
BTW, I worked at the post office too, but only for a few months and sorted mail and made special deliveries. Long time ago; stamps were 8 cents then.
S
You sure have changed, Sylvia. For years we rarely heard a peep of you on the blog. Now you are a regular, appreciated contributor.
Thank you, Larry. For a couple of years I was learning from you all how it’s done, feeling my way through feelings. I appreciate you guys very much. This place is one of a kind.
S
Vicki,
I never have any interest in Christmas music after New Years Day. One year we did leave up our Christmas tree until May or June, maybe because I was working the night shift. It got embarrassing when people were noticing it in our apartment window. We hustled it out to the street in the middle of the night for sanitation to pick up.
Music is a continuous tool for me to use with feelings. I don’t mind being sensitive to it, I find it useful, it can bring up big feelings, so I go with it. Something which gives me a big feeling one day, can have no effect the next day.
Sylvia, it has something to do with feeling alone for me, even having people around. I have my music which speaks to me and is there with me, I guess in contrast to what I had as a child.
Phil
I respect you Vicki for persistently slogging primally through so much tortuous pain.
Please ignore this if you want, OK? I’m just doing a small bit of self-therapeutic writing.
It seems as though everyone is wrapped up in his or her own issues, doesn’t it? I’ve been feeling utterly terrible for my dad these past couple days. It’s been 1 year, 9 months since he passed and it still feels like yesterday.
He was a superhero who absolutely didn’t deserve to die, ever. I was pissed at seeing Chuck Yaeger make it to 97 and I was thinking dad absolutely deserved to live to 97 instead of just 82.
I feel terrible I couldn’t do more for dad. I feel totally helpless and terrible about that.
I’ve talked often about his teddy bear demeanor. It doesn’t mean he was soft-spoken. He was a intellectual giant who spoke with a mid-pitched clarity in his voice, average yet self-assured.
He was a great person, and I’m sorry I can’t be more skillfully descriptive than that.
He was never arrogant. He might have quietly judged people, but never really arrogant.
It’s almost 2 years ago!!!! I am surprised. It seems like less than a year ago that you wrote to us that your Dad had died. I think that you miss him is an indication of how much he meant to you, guru.
Guru,
It sounds like your dad was a special guy. It’s unfair that some people live a long time and others don’t.
Phil
Clearly a great guy, a great relationship. Sounds like both of you were lucky to have had each other.
Thanks David. It seems as though there is a paradox with beloved cancer patients. The more you love them the worse you feel you couldn’t do more for them.
Helplessness, things beyond my control, I find that state horrible. I was with my 4 year old and later cared for my 90 year old father during death process. I wish I had held her. 40 years, I miss her. I wish I could have had some recognition from him of the damage done.
Unfinished words with the deceased can leave a painful imprint that never wants to leave, yes. I saw this firsthand even with non-relatives, referring to my predator neighbor’s dad.
Yes, the end of all possibilities for rconciiation, if needed.
Guru,
it is so clear by how you describe your dad that you loved and love him dearly!
you will always carry him in your heart.
M
Margaret, Larry, and Phil…thanks very much for replying. You didn’t have to, but you did! I’ve been crying about dad for the past few days yeah. It’s terribly wrong that’s he’s gone. I don’t have much more to add right now. It’s just completely wrong, that’s all.
Maybe I will discuss it more later. I do think about him every single day. He deserved a lot better than what life gave him, yet he still fought back and stayed in the ring like the gentle lion he was.
Similar to Bernadette, dad was adamant in his belief of a God and an afterlife. Less than a week before he died, while weak in his deathbed he asked me to recite the Lord’s Prayer. I complied with his request and he was satisfied.
I also learned a stark lesson in how people can die so differently even under the umbrella of a natural death. Dad was in bad shape for almost three whole months before dying, while Jack seemed to hang on pretty well up to just a few days before passing (still blogging). I wrongly judged Jack’s condition using my dad as a guiding reference. Terrible mistake on my part.
during a training for the tele helpline we had an exercise we all got a lot from, and which was very interesting to do, and very bonding.
it works best when you are in a (small) group of people,, as sharing becomes easier that way, or in a large group with for example taking turns to talk in the end with a bit of a time limit if necessary.
everyone has to write down 20 things that make him or her feel good in their life, or they feel happy about etc.
not less than 20!
then you can start sharing what your items are.
I found it a great exercise, and was amazed at the items that popped up in my own mind, it is actually such a positive exercise and triggering at the same time when listening to the others!
curious if anyone will give it a try, if only to list up 20 items and maybe say something here about it?
M
Margaret, your last sentence “curious if anyone will give it a try” reminded me of dad’s semi-innocent facial demeanors and his semi-positive demeanor overall.
It feels like the only positive thing in my life right now, the memories
My life’s future seems so dark and bleak and I cling to some shred of positivity from my recent past, pretending my dad is really close to me right now..
Margaret,
Maybe you should go first since it’s your suggestion.
When I’m feeling bad, memories of good things aren’t going to help. Would that be an effort to make the bad feeling go away? It seems an anti-primal effort. What does help is to go fully into the bad feeling, whatever it is. After that, things tend to feel better.
Well here’s a few things: I like my lunch break, but now I’m back to work. Pizza with anchovies is something good in my life, I like it, but it’s too good to have at work. Weekends are good, and so is Christmas.
Phil
During the last seven or eight years of dad’s life he did a LOT of travelling across the US. Mostly for business for his gambling partners, Vegas, Tunica Mississippi, Shreveport & Lake Charles Louisiana, Chicago, parts of Indiana and Michigan, Atlantic City….just all over the place constantly hopping on planes provided by his partners,
Anyway, dad’s death certainly feels unnaturally premature and I know he was functioning quite well until, as he said, the lung cancer diagnosis hit him “like a ton of bricks” warning me “I may not make it next year” and “You’re going to have to learn to accept some things.”
He gave me lots of wise warning.
Dad’s most depressing trips were to Atlantic City. He said the Philadelphia SEPTA trains weren’t so bad, but Atlantic City depressed him the most.
I couldn’t help but remember the Bruce Springsteen song “Everything dies baby that’s a fact”
I tried to bargain with him during his last year while he was still fully active.
“Come on dad, you can pull through this.”
He just kinda gave me the bleak response, “Lots of things happen in your eighties.”
I probably could have said, “Well it doesn’t have to happen to YOU. You are a special, exceptional Superman. Just take a look at those guys who do pole vaulting at 94 years of age. You can do it too!”
He would give me a speech how those people are one in a million outliers.
Yes, I actually showed this pole vaulting video to dad some years ago hoping it would inspire him somehow…but…no..82 was all he could do and he was healthy as a steamroller until his leg fractured.
I just feel lots of disappointment, I guess.
I did some more research and it seems that miraculous pole vaulter Dr. Bell died earlier this year at age 98. A surprisingly young age, for it seemed he would live as long as Walter Breuning did (114 years old)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Breuning
Phil,
of course you are right when there is a primal feeling asking for attention.
this exercise is not supposed to be used as a way out of pain, but just on a more neutral moment I found it very interesting.
and my partner in the small group of three I was sharing it with, told me she was triggered by what I had said, but she felt she had to think about how exactly and what went on for her and said she would come back on it at some point.
so it is sometimes triggering some pain also.
and I think the main goal of primal is in the end to feel ok, mostly, while focusing on the pain when it comes up.
as Barry says so well, we don’t need to scratch when it does not itch…
tomorrow I will try to reproduce some list of what came to mind in my own exercise, but I did not write it down then…
M
Well I feel as though I wore out my earlier welcome today by posting so much. The permanent erasure of such a wonderful Superman from the shattered remnants of family my life has put me in a lot of grim despair. Most of life feels like uncaring, impartial garbage without dad’s regal and noble presence cheering me up.
I’ll try to shut up now, misery loves company and all that…
Maybe David and others want to talk
*”shattered remnants of my family life” basically meaning nothing left now that dad’s gone except faraway second cousins
Guru, I read all your recent posts, but this last, about nothing left of the ”shattered remnants of [your] family life” now that your dad’s gone, is really the worst of it — I’m sure you know.
Ok, here I go, trying to make some kind of list of things that make me feel good in my life…
things pop up in a bit of an unstructured way, so it will be a mix…
1. my cats, always good for smiles and affection and warm feelings…
2. present friends I trust and can have lots of laughter with or cry with if necessary
3. looking back the realization in primary and high school I always seemed to have some friendships, and also on sports camps etc. there always seemed to be someone I could connect with, which on hindsight feels reassuring and encouraging
4.being fairly healthy and in good shape
5. looking forward to the restart at some point of the sailing, tango dancing and gym classes
5. the constitution I seem to be more and more able to feel ok, or even happiness more and more of the time, often without any specific trigger. just mostly a good mood, while allowing the negative feelings when they rise.
6. having an active dreamlife and remembering a lot of it, being capable to dream up a group setting and to go into feelings at times
7. feeling able to look for the sunny side of things, making the best of things, and how my mom seems to have passed that quality on, still being that way.
yesterday when I arrived at her place, she started crying upon seeing me, saying she felt she did not know much anymore and did not want to live like that anymore… I hugged her, and when after a little while I asked her if she felt like a walk, she cheered up right away, beaming really, big smile, saying ‘sure, of course, let’s go!’, all smiles again and starting to sing shortly after…
8.feeling love for so many things, beauty, animals, people, our world, feeling able to have compassion and to care
9. feeling curiosity about many things as well, science, biology, our cosmos, other people…
9.chocolate, ice cream, cookies, a beer and some potatoes chips, a good meal
10. the endless number of good audio books to listen to and enjoy, offered for free by the library
I will continue in a new comment before it gets too long, M
ok, what next, as I say, so many things pop up…
11. the great gift of primal therapy of feeling able to deal with grief, fear and anger better and better, and to be able to enjoy and feel good and trust and be vulnerable also better and better
12. feel so good about having taken the initiative for a volunteer job at the phone helpline, as it is so interesting and brings me in touch with a large number of very positively oriented people, the fellow volunteers and the staff
13. the thought of hopefully soon being able to start the volunteer work and give some of the callers some support and courage to continue
13. becoming more and more aware of being able to deal with problems, to accept the feelings that come with them, to look for solutions, and to ask for help and assistance when necessary
14. it is great to have solved a problem small or not so small
15.
hearing the occasional good stand-up comedian on tv, love to laugh out loud and it makes me feel connected as well
16. the connecting with all kinds of people, in small ways or more intensely, of which I have more now surprisingly, despite the Corona. i seem to really need to regularly meet new people, or to bond more with the ones I know
17.
my daily soap on tv
18. going to bed with the cats by my feet or next to me
19. hearing someone say what they like about me!
feeling hope and curiosity about what still lays ahead of me, despite the fear for all new events, as I feel more capable to pass the hurdle of fear as I know more and more how rewarding the challenges can be
ok, so far so good, these are the things that spontaneously came up for me so far, it must be entirely different for anyone.
maybe the exercise works best while not having read yet someone else’s list, not sure.
I feel a bit vulnerable having written this list down, but well, I feel vulnerable most of the time, it seems to come with being more open, which is ok as it also lets in the good stuff.
Margaret
P.s.
21. I remember in the exercise we had in the volunteer training, also having talked about how, at the time I started Primal Therapy, I entered literally saying ‘I don’t need anyone’, and feeling proud of that…
7 months later I got the meningitis and lost 95 percent of my eyesight and the hearing of one ear, and was obliged to admit to myself I did need other people after all…
that actually helped my therapy forward, beside triggering a lot of pain and anxiety and deep grieving.
appreciating others help and learning to ask for it, being vulnerable and scared instead of so arrogantly ‘tough’, made me a nicer, more gentle person, or at least that is how it feels to me.
so even that traumatic event did offer some opportunities, while of course I would (not) hesitate if offered the option to have my sight back but to still be a egoistic person or to keep it this way.
I would probably cheat and choose the first option telling myself from then on I would start to work on being more gentle, ha!
just felt like adding this one, to the list, as it might have been maybe what triggered the other person listening in the exercise on Zoom…
M
Margaret,
thanks for sharing all this.
I don’t feel like making a long list, but I do have good things in my life.
I have my wife, although we sometimes are struggling to make our relationship work,
it’s very good when it’s working. She puts up with me.
I have my sons, and they really only bring me joy.
We are healthy and have what we need to enjoy life.
I’m lucky, or resourceful to have found primal therapy many years ago, and although it’s
been an extremely long and difficult journey, I don’t think I could have made it otherwise.
Phil
Why before therapy did you adopt the attitude of being ‘arrogantly tough’, Margaret?
I have to type this:
Have you ever seen a friar-style of hairdo for guys? Mostly bald, but with a strip of hair around back from ear-to-ear?
Dad had a nice, shiny topped bald head with a friar-strip grown out, gray and white.
It was just so innocent. An innocent mathematical mind with the regal, dignified elder decorum of baldness with a casually tussled gray-and-white friar strip of hair around back.
An innocent man ready to hug at anytime.
Thankyou for all the comments to my post of 12/5. Yes, I am pretty slow to respond here.
You brought up some interesting things,Sylvia.
I did have a reaction after I posted. I felt like I was nothing, I didn’t exist. It’s as though I have struggled all my life to protect myself and suddenly I’m unprotected.
You mentioned that my feeling of ‘I can’t do that’ could be related to early in life situation when I felt helpless at not being able to do something well (or at all I think in my case)
I am thinking of two scenes where I couldn’t take care of myself and maybe can write about later.
I have been thinking today that there actually are 3 things in my life right now that I need to do and feel I can’t.
I need to find a job, find a place to live soon because house I am renting a room in is in process of getting sold, and I need to buy a car.
I had a car accident in March, car was totaled and I still haven’t replaced. I am looking to buy a not too expensive used car but having an extremely difficult time to search for one.
There you go, Margaret! You were asking about how things were going now. Things were better for about 2 years but now it’s extreme stress and hard to go forward. Thankyou for your comment, Margaret, that was so very kind.
Superstar Guru, I am sorry to say that I have not heard from ‘ex’ and I am sorry that it’s causing you so much pain to not be able to contact him.
Otto, that was nice to hear what you said about liking to hear me in group. I can relate to your feeling paralyzed with fear.
Larry , Thankyou for the welcome
It’s me again.
I am scared about a situation that just came up for me and was wondering if anyone is familiar with this.
I am renting a room in a 2 bedroom apartment I share with a couple. The husband acquired the apartment at least 30 years ago and wife (with cat) moved in about 15 years ago.
The building got sold and owners hired management company that put out new rules as part of change in terms of tenancy. One being:
‘No persons or pets are permitted to occupy the premises other than those listed on the original rental agreement without the express prior consent of the owner or his agent.’ (30 day notice)
Maybe they still can’t kick anyone out because of COVID-19 (not sure if that is still in effect) but am afraid the couple will
ask me to leave. They haven’t seen the notice yet.
I think the owners are looking for any excuse to kick people out so they can raise rent, which is actually ridiculously low.
I would greatly appreciate hearing from anyone who knows about this
Mary, thanks for letting me know you are out of the loop regarding your ‘ex’. If you know someone who is closer to him, could you please check and see if he’s OK?
No pressure here, but I really do think there’s a 5-10% chance he died.
As for your apartment sub-lease, are you firmly wanting to stay in the LA metro area or are you willing to relocate away from the city at this time? An answer here can help clarify things for future suggestions for you, thanks.
To Super Guru,
I can’t think of anyone at the moment that may know something about ex but will let you know if I do. What makes you think there is a chance he died?
Thankyou for your interest in my rental problem. Would be willing to relocate outside of metro La sometime in near future
Mary, my post immediately after your first one explaining your situation would help answer your question. 5-10 percent is still a slim possibility. All kinds of other possibilities, too! I have no idea why I haven’t heard from him for so long.
I wish I could be of more help with your precarious living arrangements. Do you have relatives who could help?
Is there still a public service/renters’ rights assoc’n such as , ” Justice Institute?” Changing terms on existing rentals used to be a , ” no no.” At one time Primal rentors were a revolving door… (:
Dave Hardy
There’s a worrisome situation at the place where I work. We realized last night that a doctor who works with us once a week is positive for Covid. He was tested on Monday and the positive results came back Thursday. He worked with us on Wednesday. The patients he saw are getting notified. I was only close to him for a few seconds, but other people in the office had a lot more contact with him. Ideally we should close the office and all quarantine, but that isn’t happening. I guess my bosses are justifiably worried about their business, but staying open can put it more at more risk. And they seem to be more worried about their business than they are about their patients and employees.
Phil,
We all will be tested, but we have to wait at least 5 days for the testing to be effective.
Phil,
that is worrisome indeed.
one tiny good side is tomorrow the weekend starts, but if everyone has to keep working then until the test results arrive, that must create a very unpleasant situation, right?
how do your colleagues feel about this?
wouldn’t they prefer a safety quarantine?
i hate to imagine being in such a position and feel bad for you to have to deal with this.
M
Margaret, if I get it, it will probably be later on from one of my coworkers, other than that doctor. If everyone is extremely careful, always wearing masks, maybe no one else will get it. But I’m sure the doctor took his mask off to drink coffee, although he did go out to a restaurant for lunch. From now on I’m going to my car to have lunch instead of eating in the break room.
It’s stressful, I don’t want to be getting it. My wife doesn’t want me bringing it home. She is now sometimes working at the local high school, another somewhat risky place. I want to stay free of Covid until vaccines get here.
Phil
Phil, that sounds really alarming and scary. Please do take good care of yourself. Stay healthy and safe!!
Margaret, I like this exercise, although it’s not that easy. Things that make me feel good or that I am happy about. Here I go (not in any particular order):
1. working in my garden, getting my hands dirty in the soil, talking to the plants, watching new shoots grow, love it when the butterflies dance around me, I’m floating on the sound of birdsong, lose myself in the bees buzzing from flower to flower, each flower having its own expression like a face, its own distinct scent, sweeping the fallen leaves, connecting with natural energy.
2. biking along the beach on a sunny day for miles on end, easy going, the wind in my hair, the warm sun on my back, the cries of sea gulls, the sound of the waves washing up on the shore, children playing in the sand and laughing with joy, I’m just floating along, weightless, watching the clouds sail by and daydreaming.
3. yoga, the rhythmic breathing and movements, the focusing inward, the conscious attention to muscles and tendons stretching and releasing of tension, the strength and balance, the twisting into a pretzel ever so slightly deeper than yesterday, or not, the sense of complete relaxation at the end in body, mind, and spirit.
4. non-thinking, the most awesome place to be, no thoughts, first just feeling the body, the blood pulsating through the veins, the tingling electricity running through the body, just pure sensation without thinking, being in my center and feeling my heart energy, and eventually letting go of all sensory perceptions and floating in space.
5. cooking, I cook with all of my senses, love the sounds, chopping, sizzling, bubbling, sputtering; love the smells, the colors, the textures, the arrangement on the plates, the tastes, the sweet, the sour, the salty, the spicy, a happy, creative process, seeing a meal come together, mostly plant based, organic and healthy.
6. getting hugs from my husband and hugging him, it’s cuddly and warm and makes me feel connected and provides a sense of safety on a deep level, and is the expression of love and closeness without words. Making my husband smile, or even better laugh out loud, so that he forgets for a moment that life is not all that shitty, and watching with pleasure when his eyes sparkle with joy or mischief at that moment.
7. lending a helping hand to a friend or neighbor, being part of a solution gives me a good feeling and a sense of responsibility, connecting with people by doing or writing or listening or talking, living by example without expectation and being surprised when seeing others follow, thus creating a peaceful environment. At the same time knowing that there is not always an answer or a solution as far as I understand but that a certain action or state of mind makes sense to someone and has its rightful place.
8. talking on the phone with my eldest sister for hours at a time about God and the world, I forget my surroundings and completely sink into the space we create together, from serious talk to girlish giggles to serene heartfelt memories and feelings, crying together and expressing our love for each other. So wonderful.
9. My connection to nature. Hiking in the hills, enjoying the serenity and quiet of the natural environment, often seeing wildlife, deer and bunny rabbits, birds and lizards and snakes and butterflies, that always is a heart opening event, enjoying the view over the bay, the sun reflecting on the ocean and the gazillion silvery sparkles it creates. Watch the waterfowl down by the river or the birds in my garden through a spy glass, there is no better therapy than letting myself sink into the world of the birds, in awe at their simple presence, their natural everyday routines, their liveliness, their loyalty to one another, their natural ebb and flow of waking and sleeping with the rise or setting of the sun.
10. writing, when my head gets out of the way and the words and phrases and concepts flow through my hands and fingers onto the keyboard, as though they came from an unknown world and I am only the tool that brings the thoughts and sentiments to life on ‘paper’. Writing and receiving emails, WhatsApps, messages and blog post from friends and family members that create a web of connections.
11. listening to music over high quality head phones that bring out every sound and nuance of each instrument, at this time of the year it’s Christmas songs or Handel’s Messiah that touch my heart on a deep level, letting myself float along the different layers that the various instruments and voice create, the highs and lows, the interweaving of the different parts, the creating of tension and the resolution, I feel it with my entire body.
12. a good cry especially after having denied and resisted a painful feeling, and finally the release when I accept, let it rise up, allow it to connect and then fully embrace the pain, at this moment even the pain turns to pleasure and a sense of thankfulness, nothing gives more release and brings more healing.
13. the self-healing of my body through meditation, yoga, qi-gong, awareness of energy flow and innate healing forces, and the releasing of primal pain. The feeling of being deeply grateful for having less pain in my spine than a few years ago, in spite of getting older. The appreciation of an otherwise healthy and strong body, grateful for not needing any medication.
14. singing out loud while driving my car, I make up my own songs and melodies, sometimes even create my own language with meaningless words, it’s all an expression of a deep yearning and feeling inside from an ancient time long past, it creates a deep sadness or soaring joy depending on my current need, and is at the same time exhilarating and relaxing, but always healing on a deep level.
15. vacuuming – that’s after having gone through all the resistance and dislike and not wanting and what a nuisance and impatience and irritation, then arriving at the acceptance and slowing down and focusing only at the task in hand and finally realizing that there is nothing else that I’d rather be doing right now. That’s peace.
16. Dancing, alone and freestyle, when surrounded by sounds of music and lots of space, slow or fast, gentle or wild, or even better yet, by a drum circle, only my body movements express what my mind cannot, being carried along by the rhythms and sounds, a sense of freedom and joy.
17. being able to mostly see the positive side in life, even when in the depth of misery or in the face of adversity, I know there is another place and it will reveal itself, I have faith that all is exactly the way it is supposed to be, and will change when it is supposed to be different again. Accepting things as they are, although a bit of a challenge at times, but when I’m there it feels deeply peaceful and gratifying and I am content with what is, even if things don’t look perfect from the outside. Knowing and accepting that I have created and always will create my own reality, and take responsibility for it, is deeply satisfying and grounding.
18. Having a curious and intelligent and open mind that can learn and expand and acquire new knowledge, be it empirical knowledge like astronomy or learning a new language like Spanish and Latin, or a mind that can improve in intuitive areas, in the matters of the heart, including making a 180 turn-around on some occasions after pondering on a deep seated belief or a misguided, faulty instinct.
19. the knowledge that a sense of gratefulness is the best cure for personal misery, that change has to come from the inside and is directly dependent on what I think and as a result, feel. The knowledge that what I think and feel has a direct impact on the people around me, therefore the realization that if I want to see a better world, it starts with my own thoughts and feelings and actions, and is indeed challenging and yet empowering.
20. the idea that I am not done yet with life, that there is room for self-improvement, that indeed the best of me is still to come, that I have a purpose that I want to fulfill, that I have still much to give, not in a big and/or public way but in a quiet and sublime way.
21. Knowing that contentment, joy, abundance, peace, freedom, and love are states of the mind entirely dependent on my inner state of being and are not to be sought on the outside, in other persons, or in material things – is liberating and grounding.
Bernadette, you expressed yourself so well in this answer to Margaret’s exercise. I could almost imagine what it’s like being you.
Phil
Phil, thanks… “almost” is the operative word here, now you only have to imagine my miserable half and you get the whole picture (smile).
On the Covid side: are you taking mega doses of vitamin D (10,000 IU per day)? It is supposed to strengthen your immune system and protect somewhat from catching the virus, and if you already have the virus, it’s supposed to help you recover quicker. There are some good studies. I hope you are okay.
Guru, it is nice to read about the tender feelings you had for your dad, still have. The friar hair style rings a bell, my dad looked like that, although he let his white mane grow wild at certain times (as you might remember from the photo with the giant zucchini). I am glad you had such a deep connection with your dad, especially as you lost your mother so early in your life. I can imagine that you miss him deeply, especially around this time of year.
Bernadette, yes I certainly remember that cool photo of your dad! I only want to add that my own dad didn’t let his friar mane grow *too* wild, only 2-3 inches at most. Any sort of ponytail would have been way too cheap and tawdry for him.
I noticed your exceptionally comprehensive responses to Margaret, and I feel slightly sad I was not able to elicit any response to the neighborhood pictures I sent you. While it’s true you’re never *obligated* to respond, I’d still love to know what insights you might carry.
Any feedback you may have along with what specific observations Renee may have had leading her to conclude that I am “quite hard on myself” are highly sought-after pieces of knowledge for me at this time.
Guru, my dad didn’t go as far as a pony tail either, he was very neat; in that picture he probably had the wildest, and longest, hair ever in his life! As far as I remember.
I’m sorry to make you slightly sad for not having responded yet to your email with the neighborhood pictures, it has been on my mind, but I would rather respond to you via email. Let me work on that later today.
You know that I can’t talk for Renee, Guru! I don’t know what she had in mind and wouldn’t want to speculate, when she concluded that you are hard on yourself. All I remember is that she said it in connection with you being “wiser and more resilient than you think” or something along those lines, which could possibly give you a clue. I think it would be much more productive for you if you came up with your own answers.
Hi Bernadette:
That’s interesting how you interpreted the last sentence I wrote: “Any feedback you may have along with what specific observations Renee may have had leading her to conclude that I am “quite hard on myself” are highly sought-after pieces of knowledge for me at this time.”
I wrote that sentence as a general-purpose sentence with no actual requests made of anyone at all. When I said “I am highly valuing these two pieces of knowledge (ie. your feedback and Renee’s thought processes)”, I didn’t mean it as, “You personally should give me your feedback and tell me what Renee was thinking.” 🙂
Clearly you’re trying to be as helpful as you can, so that’s always nice!
I just now read and responded to your mail, Bernadette. You’re a huge sweetheart for pouring so much energy into this today. Thanks so much for such richly detailed feedback on such short notice!
Bernadette, I sent a second mail with some additional thoughts just now, so hopefully neither of the two mails were lost to your spam folder. Thanks for everything.
Guru, I got the two additional emails and will give you my thoughts later.
Guru, oops, sorry, I mis-read and misunderstood 🙂
As English is not my native tongue, certain nuances still elude me at times…
finally a saturday. now i will take out the trash and clean up a horribly cluttered and dirty house. both of us work so hard, we don’t have energy to do squat except work, eat too much, sleep, watch tv during the work-week. i was able to sleep in till 8, the amazing grace of a saturday. i had an interesting dream that probably means something, and i can still remember fragments. not the normal dream where meowling running cats wake you up in the middle of the dream, so that you get up to pee and the dream immediately disappears from your consciousness. this was not a scary dream, but involved moving into a new home, walking with the young woman who owned the home, and a couple competing for space in this incredibly large home. for some reason, the thought came to me that the dream might be somewhat about coming home to my grandmother’s care after my mom died of polio, when i was about 1 1/2 years old. the few years after 1 1/2, i can pull up no me,mory until i was about 5, living in a house with my brother and grandmother in hollywood, next door to the hotel where my good aunt and uncle lived and managed the hotel. 1950’s hollywood. some strange chicken-to-go place across the street, cant remember the name but yes the smell. not a bad smell, we liked to eat chicken,
not many tears this year about christmas. i had some tears many years ago when we went to my wife’s sister’s house at christmas time, redondo beach maybe. i looked at the sister’s christmas tree and felt very sad. maybe our youngest son was just a baby at that time. another time, at a christmas group in the big big group room, with the carols playing on the tape player, i was able to lay down in that big room and have a few tears as i listened to the music. probably both times…something my mom being very sad at my first christmas when i was only a couple of weeks out of the womb. she was most likely sad, at times, since my father (her husband) had died suddenly 6 months before i was born. then my mom went away just before my 2nd christmas, she went away to be paralyzed in an iron lung with polio for 8 months. and then everyone was sad at my 3rd christmas because my mom had died in the summer. good times. i feel nothing as i write this. maybe we will watch jimmy stewart and donna reed movie, that’s always good for a tear, especially when they first get together and they throw their arms around each other and george (JIMMY) is so emotional about donna wanting him and him giving up his dreams of leaving the hick town and all his responsibilities. oh yeah, it’s a wonderful life. sure…every now and then. for some people, never. for me…bearable, some wonder…some or a lot of anguish. b up, got to take out trash before i am bombarded with ‘i am happy’, when do we get tree, do your new shoes fit…presents presents presents.i should treasure her, but of course wtf i am unable to. what a joke am i.
why do i write this trivial crap. i stupidly sent her outside without a mask to give the gardener his gardening check and his christmas check. she had the sense to pull her scarf over her mouth and he pulled up his mask. she took off scarf and said she will wash it. people are dying in droves over here. gardener mario was chopping twigs off of his tree and dropping covid all over the place as he huffed and puffed in the coldish late-fall california air. he must like to cut twigs off of trees. it is probably the same as me. i work to distract my mind a lot. i think his brother died this year or last, he cried in my wife’s arms when that happened. i just now chastized her when i was writing this, with my door closed. she burst in to give me a birthday card from my oldest son and wife. the card i had just plucked from the mailbox and threw on the green chair with the rest of the mail. because i dont have time for mail with trash overflowing the house. and i dont give a flying f about birthdays or birthday cards. i said don’t come in when my door is shut. sorry. anyway. as i was saying before she burst into my room…i was trying to be complimentary about her caring personality, as she cared about our gardener. but i had to stop taking trash out and sweeping when she started singing. i like to groan and grumble when i work, no whistling while i work for me. i guess i will tackle my room now. can’t turn this way or that it is so cluttered. caring for my dog in her last few months was about all i could do besides work like a dog telework, trying to keep up and competing to stay alive with the imagined terror and braininess of my young superstar co-workers. this week i was cursing loud while working…my fingers don’t hit the right keys, and the mouse and the internet have a mind of their own. the cursor is never to be found. i can afford real glasses but the rx is buried somewhere in this room.
cant help myself she is on iphone with our son and his wife in ohio oohing and ahhing about their cheese plate they just made for themselves. i look at the phone to comply but i dont give an f about cheese plate. i have been overeating so much and not in the mood for happy. just trying to dig out. why does she call them when she sees me working. i have probably discouraged her from housework over 44 years because my grandmother did it so much better. better because she used work to forget the death or her husband and my mom. and made me a cleaning woman in the process. her love of work, transferred to me, at least i know how to keep working. but at a cost. old woman, non-person me.
I must have a feeble brain, Otto, because your ‘trivial crap’ is to me interesting to read. I can’t help feeling that most people if not all who were smacked with your same early life experiences would feel much as you to about your life now.
Otto, I agree with Larry, I always like reading about what you are going through and remember. I think it’s amazing that you have been able to keep a challenging job and have a family, things to be grateful for. It’s hard breaking to read about your childhood. Keep writing.
I meant to write “it’s heart breaking to read about your childhood”
b, l, thx
g,b, wtf? faux grim reaper? or what…
Either i was hallucinating in group today, which is entirely possible due to my age and the large amounts of acid i took in the sixties, or there was one hell of a hail mary primal technique awarded to me for my constant devotion to my ugly truth. I was surprised, i must say…when the shovel came flying at my head and i had to tell my feets to do their walkin’. no, it must have been a technical error that there was indifferent silence. oh well, we shall see how that works itself out. now we are talkin’, the big guns came out. too bad i can’t deal with them. i do feel like a creep now, but my stupid strong defenses remain intact.
Sounds exciting, Otto! I can’t wait to find out what that’s all about! So much all tied up in that!
Defenses are to be respected, but in this therapy of course gently challenged every now and then. We want to get rid of them and we don’t. We always have that difficult dance.
somebody i know did not like the way i danced, so i gave it up long ago. i give things up easily. too many shovels to the head over 69 years, i guess.
shovels to the head are generally not considered gentle, is what i am saying. now to work. that is the worst shovel to my head at this moment, but the other one will be felt all week too.
Bernadette,
thanks so much for sharing what makes you feel good in your life.
i have to reread it as there is so much there I connect with, and that also feels good.
I liked what you wrote about the vacuum cleaning as well, as I regretted not having mentioned that after writing my stuff, and don’t you also really like the smell of soap after having cleaned the floors, and after having done a load of washing, ha, which gives a lot of satisfaction with even less effort, smiley….
and specially the Marseille soap, delicious, i have all kinds of stuff with that in it, shower gel, hand soap, soap for the washing machine and soap for the floors and furniture, all containing that delicious Marseille soap smelling sooo good and old-fashioned!
M
Phil,
your reply to Bernadette made me wonder if our pain, the things that hurt us, tells mostly about what has been done to us, while what we love and enjoy maybe tends to say more about who we really are…
just a thought crossing my mind by what you said…
M
Otto,
I understand you perceived that silence as indifference, but I know it was not.
I care and wish I knew a way to help you, and think for the majority of the group they feel the same…
what would help you to be able to speak up more in group?
sometimes I am afraid to ask you questions fearing it would only irritate you, but maybe I should just stick out my neck, what do you say?
I don’t know about the therapists, and their approach, but I am entirely sure they mean the best for you and deeply care.
their silence if anything is inviting, but maybe you need another approach?
I hold back also because I have been out of group for several years, so I feel I know little to nothing about what would help you.
but it is hard to hear you suffer so if you could give us a clue please do?
M
In group yesterday I talked about how Christmas music effects me. Later on in the evening I was alone, and put on some music, and sure enough, I had a big cry. Besides anything else, it seems to open up feelings of wanting my childhood family together, intact and healthy, with everyone connecting and relating nicely, and that I get everything I need.
Some kind of Christmas miracle that I don’t believe in, but maybe hope for somewhere deep inside, a secret feeling I carry around. That’s why it’s good I talked about it, and am writing about it here.
Otto, what I think is, you should force yourself to talk in group, even if you don’t feel like it, or want to. I see you in group, and hope you’ll say more. But it’s OK if you don’t, I’m glad you’re there.
Phil
the fear is palpable at work. i work at home. but that fear was pretty much palpable on friday. thanks margaret. no time to chat. i may, for my own health, post snippets today as i wallow in my fear.
I guess Michael Jackson was a creep, but this song gets to me.
He wasn’t a creep yet when he sang this, just an innocent kid being deprived.
crude foul cursing comes out of my mouth constantly as i work. people i hate for their contribution to my aches and pains. maybe i had a good role model. hmmm. a good reason to keep my f’ing mouth shut now.
i stiil think it was beautiful to see e holding her cat.
doom in the morning, doom in the evening, doom at suppertime….er.. sorry bout that McGuire Sisters – Sugartime
maybe that kind of feeling erased a lot of my early memories
SUCH A HAPPY SONG https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRvEHn6fKWE
WELL THE SHOVEL SURE KNOCKED SOMETHING LOOSE IN MY BRAIN. BRAVO. HOW COULD MONSTER UNCLE LISTEN TO SUCH HAPPY MUSIC? probably my aunt. or not. my grandmother told me they would go out dancing and leave me home alone. so they must have liked music. which could have been a stinker. since my mom gave me a lot of music before moving on. but surely confusing for a young mind.
Otto, it sounds like you made a good connection.
they dont allow me to cry at work. what a fucking happy song!–HOW SAD!
here i am all afraid of death. i told my harebrained not to go down to the neighbors house because that 80 year old lady lets people come in to her house. but my delight cant get it through her head and went twice in her house. lady was found on bathroom floor . ambulance took her to hospital. now is my dear wife full of covid? am i? unfrigging believable. and poor lady, nice lady, hope she just ate something.
I am still listening to Peter, Paul, and Mary a lot, and listening to Mary Travers. They recorded “Some Walls” late in Mary’s life, and it also appears on their final album (live version), where the arrangements were slightly different and more relaxed. Mary was fragile, had been in chemo for her leukemia, and “the boys” were helping her more with some leads. Her voice was not as pure and soft, and her range had lowered, yet she feels almost more “fired up” or maybe intense, and more blunt. I find the contrast interesting, in what she was capable of, between the early and late styles.
Anyway, here are the words of “Some Walls” followed by the song, the only one I could find online.
Some walls are made of stone
Sometimes we build our own
Some walls stand for years
And some wash away with tears
Some walls
Some walls
Some walls are lined with gold
Where some hearts stay safe and cold
Some walls are made of doubt
Holding in and keeping out
If there’s any hope for love at all
Some walls must fall
Some walls
Some walls
Some walls are built on pride
Some keep the child inside
Some walls are made in fear
That love let go will disappear
If there’s any hope for love at all
Some walls must fall
How will you ever know what might be found
Until you let the walls come tumbling down
If there’s any hope for love at all
Some walls, some walls must fall
If there’s any hope for love at all
Some wall, some walls, some walls
Must fall
Songwriters: Mary Ann Kennedy / Pamela Rose / Randy Sharp
Some Walls (2004 Remaster) lyrics © Sony/ATV Music Publishing LL
Vicki, I like the lyrics of “Some Walls” they say so much in simple words. The way you described and compared Mary’s singing styles made a lot of sense and made me think how observant you are and my guess is that you must love music a lot. The lyrics also made me think of my own walls. And how I still have to work on breaking them down from the inside.
Yes, thanks Bernadette, that’s what I was aiming for. The words say so much. And yet, it’s when I listen to them singing, I feel so much more about it, than just reading the words. But I need the words too, because often when I listen at first, I can’t understand all the words.
More about music — I usually have music, some song or other, running through my brain. It starts as soon as I wake up, and continues all day. I remember many years ago, another patient was telling in group how she was always “counting numbers” in her mind, all the time, and I remember that was really painful for her. So I wonder if the music I always hear fills a similar function — but it is not painful, unless occasionally I get some “earworm” stuck inside, and have to work my way to get rid of it. I remember a lot of songs, and often while one is “playing” in my head, especially if I’m humming along, suddenly it will morph into a different song, so I know my brain associated them without any effort, and if I notice and catch it, I often find that they share part of the same melody, even if the timing and mood are very different. Then it makes me wonder if one artist or group pirated it from the other.
The songs my mind “auto-plays” are ones I like, and that have been bringing up feelings recently, or else feelings in the background are bringing up related music. Either way, I’m working on some feelings. This past week several songs have “played” in my mind, but “Some Walls” (posted above), I’m hearing the most, and that made me go back and listen to it on CD or online, feeling moved by it each time, but not sure why I’m gripped. There is something about the way Mary sings, I hear it in her voice, and when I watch her on videos, I hear and see that she’s feeling intensely, and it gets to me.
Then two nights ago as I was readying for sleep, “Some Walls” was playing a little in my head, and suddenly I connected again with how much feeling Mary puts into it as she sings, especially in the different versions. I feel like I resonate with her inside when I listen, her whole body moves when she sings, and she is into it. I realized the way she sings, is like she’s loving the audience with her singing — and it made me cry in a way beyond what I ever remember feeling before. I felt it in my guts and up into my chest, and shoulders, and with breathing relief, and focused into my heart, over and over. And the feeling of being loved changed into feeling more alive in my body. And still connected to what I think I’m seeing & hearing in Mary. It’s a strong feeling, at the moment. Also in there was feeling alone, and feeling how different I imagine Mary would have been, compared to my own mother. I feel Mary had a straightforward simplicity in how she expressed herself and her truth as a person, and how she saw herself in the world. I got that sense also from reading the opening chapter of her book, as she writes about her childhood with clarity.
Vicki, usually (but not always) I am an instrumental music person, Mind if I play this here? It’s only a 2-minute track and it plays on a 90 minute loop, but…well it matches well with Lake Moraine, Alberta, Canada I guess. I don’t know…it helps to soothe the savage beast in me when I am screaming at the predator neighbor who died in 2003, “FUCK YOU! You didn’t get SHIT from me, did you? Fuck you and the smooth talking snake oil horse you rode in on.”
OK, let’s calm down now …Ohmmmmm,,,,,
Oops, that’s not it…Forget that,..I played that earlier in response to someone complaining about drought in California…Here’s what I was trying to post:
Thanks Vicki, that’s a nice song,
Phil
Snow day for me here. Hurray! I don’t mind the big shoveling job I’ll have.
Phil, how fun and happy shoveling! Masses of snow brings up some great childhood memories for me. From building snow men and igloos to diving into snow drifts, skiing, sledding down the icy paths, heaven! I hope the snow will stay and you are going to have a white Christmas. It’s so magical!
Otto, how much strength and courage you show by bringing all your pain, fears, anger, doubts, darkness, and vulnerability, etc., into the open. I hope you and your wife are healthy and safe!
Margaret, It feels good that you were able to connect to some of my “feel good” moments. So often in the primal community we can relate to each other because we have the same pain. But to share something pleasant feels exciting. When you mentioned the vacuuming, I felt I needed to clarify what I meant: it was mostly the resistance that I have to break through before I arrive at the pleasantness of vacuuming that is significant to me. My brain actually resists and hates vacuuming, but once I focus my entire attention on the task, and consciously let go of the resistance, that’s when the resistance disappears and from that moment on, I love doing it. The vacuuming is a analogy, if you want, to many other things in my life to which I feel resistance to. And I have many of those. I was born with resistance in my every cell of the body. That said, of course it is also pleasant to have a clean house and one that smells nice (smile). One of my favorite things in this area is freshly washed bed sheets! So cozy!
It was hard coming back to work after our snow holiday. It turns out a neighbor came over with a powerful snow blower and did our whole driveway, which would have been a big job. That was really nice of him, and he mentioned he has fun using his snow blower anyway.
I have been reflecting on feelings brought up around Christmas, triggered by Christmas music. There was a good feeling which existed around the holidays in my childhood. But as my mother was sick and soon left us, after that it was never right, although we could still enjoy. My father probably substituted gift giving for attention the rest of the year. At least that was some kind of attention.
I hope I haven’t had a pattern of doing that too.
In general I’m in favor of enthusiastically celebrating any holiday, even new, foreign ones, I guess because my experience was, they represent an opportunity to have some good feelings, so why not take advantage?
Phil
Apologies to the blog if I seem oblivious to everyone’s cares and concerns. I simply want to tell Bernadette I have received all her mails and sent one back to her just now. I am saying this here in case spam filters are still a problem.
Guru, received and will get back to you tomorrow
Bernadette, I was on Facebook, which pops up with “people you may know”, so I saw Jack’s page — and there were 4 posts from his friends who apparently don’t know Jack’s gone. I thought you or Mark might want to post something there to let them know.
And if you need help, I could easily post whatever you’d like.
Vicki, thanks so much for letting me know and offer to help. I will tell Jim, as he has access to Jack’s Facebook page, I don’t. Between him and me, I hope we can handle it, if not, I’d be glad to take up your offer.
“The United States of America is based on ‘FUCK YOU!'”
No matter how much I cry, scream, and complain about the 1.2 million Americans killed in auto traffic between my mother’s occurrence and 9/11 along with the 800,000 killed thereafter, it matter not one whit to the privatized military/industrial contractors who profited an aggregate of $6-8 trillion off of that story.
terms of endearment. well there’s always a few tears to have watching that one.garret coming to give support to aurora when her daughter is dying. flap and aurora in the hospital room when emma leaves the world. sad and sweet. and sweet music
I screwed up yesterday on something I shouldn’t have, felt so terrible about it, and responded badly by going to the liquor store to buy a 6-pack of Pabst, drinking that, and then posting the items above on the blog while being drunk out of my mind.
So yeah I am chopping myself up pretty hard here (and, incidentally, this makes Renee’s feedback about my ‘being quite hard on myself’ pretty fascinating).
So there’s my confession in search of absolution.
I don’t want to do any more self-flagellation, I seriously don’t.
As Larry once said, “Just because I am alone doesn’t mean I am not worthwhile.”
This could be a tough holiday season for me. There’s simply nothing there. Nothing.
As much as how terrible I feel over drinking a six-pack of beer, especially afterwards, I can’t help but be astounded by how much alcohol people buy at the local liquor store. While making my purchase I watched one lady in her fifties buy more than a dozen fifths of hard liquor in sacks while I could only roll my eyes thinking, “Holy Jesus, what massive amount of poison that is.” Hopefully she was buying for a large party, at least. Another younger woman at the store had an entire shopping cart 2/3rds full of hard liquor. Not beer which I restrict myself to, but HARD LIQUOR which eight times as strong. Frightening.
I’ll finally break down and turn to alcohol when the misery for me is particularly acute or if it hangs around, never wanting to go away and give me a respite. I feel slightly jealous of the teetotalers here on the blog. How can you possibly deal with unyielding misery without finally ‘caving in’ to something self-destructive? I can’t be a ‘feel the feeling’ machine forever.
When I cursorily examined the young lady with the shopping cart 2/3rds full of hard liquor, she seemed reasonably healthy, so it’s possible she was buying for others or a private group, etc. Drinking at that level is pretty much committing suicide. The top 10% of American drinkers consume 75 drinks per week. Yes, over 10 drinks EVERY DAY! About 1/3rd of Americans are teetotalers with another 20% drinking negligible amounts.
I don’t know,….just something to ponder, I guess..
The liquor store is reasonably large with a wide variety of items from around the world. When I stopped to realize I was surrounded by enough alcohol to kill perhaps 2,000 or more people that also gave me a weird feeling. For lack of a better way to put it, it feels a bit like walking into a strange pseudo pit of despair packaged neatly and cheerfully.
Guru,
I hope you get though the holidays OK.
Here’s a good Christmas blues song. You could listen to stuff like this instead of getting drunk. Phil
That one may have been inappropriate, sorry about that. Here’s another one I like:
Phil, my cousin’s husband is a serious blues fanatic and a highly skilled cigar box guitar maker. He’s made hundreds of them and sells them at craft shows. Too bad they live hundreds of miles away from me or else I’d be visiting them a lot.
No one should have to be alone. It’s torture. That is why it is used as a severe form of punishment in prisons. There were a few times when I would have been alone for Christmas or Thanksgiving here in Saskatoon, but someone saved me from that and took me in. Looking back I realize that being involved in activities outside the home brought me in contact with people who didn’t want me to be alone over the holidays when they found out I would be. I hope you won’t always be alone Guru.
Larry, ironically when I wrote that out today a couple who were old friends with my parents sent me a Christmas card this morning. They’re really old folks now, but they were aware of my dad’s passing and they wrote me saying “Since you are an only child of two only children (my mom and dad were both only children) we are keeping you on our Christmas list. At one time we were best friends with your parents.”
It really makes me sad that this couple are one of the last few people on Earth who have any conscious memory of both my parents.
Maybe I’ll watch the movie “Last of the Mohicans” or something. My dad used to apply that title to me.
Guru,
Interestingly, there are still Mohegans around, just not where they used to be. They seem heavily into casinos, Mohegan Sun etc.
Is that spelling interchangeable? There really is a 1992 movie “Last of the Mohicans”
Based on a famous book by James Fenimore Cooper. I just found out they are different tribes. Or if I did know, I forgot. If only I could remember all the things I used to know, I might be smart.
http://www.native-languages.org/mohicans_words.htm
I love the last 20 min. of “The Last of the Mohicans”, I probably watch it a couple of times a year — as Day-Lewis, his father, brother, Wes Studi, and the two women intensely play out their feelings.
Guru, Pabst used to be one of my favorites. I feel bad for you (what you are saying about the holiday season possibly being tough for you). Hang tight.
Well thanks Otto, glad you responded with some encouraging words.
Anyway, If i wasn’t always totally in fear of people, especially big crowds like there were in yesterday’s group, I could have shared an inspirational thought i had the previous day. Wherein i said to myself, because i am not afraid to say stuff to myself (just big crowds of people), ” Another fucking year (gone)”.. The emotion attached to that proclamation did elicit a tear or two when i said that to myself, but i forgot about it by group time, and the settling in of the terror of being around the crowd of people who resembled both Life and also the Uncle of my early childhood. LIFE and my MONSTER UNCLE, whose only desires were to fuck my poor baby self over and then kill me in a terrible manner. And that feeling has overwhelmed me since group, with a lot of the tossing and turning all night long, but the anguish will most likely be stuffed back into an obscure corner of my being when i start working in a little while. well, i dont have time to make these words anymore intelligible, but i just had to say them. This therapy is a total bitch for a wretch like me. boo hoo
Vicki,
that was a great comment you wrote about what that song does to you.
sadly the link remained invisible to my screen reader,, if you have the time, could you paste it in an e-mail to me please?
I don’t recall ever having heard them and am very curious by now…
Margaret
Margaret, I have sent you an email with the link. Good luck! — Vicki
but here’s the thing—i hate this frigging job.
we also watched last week, part of CALL OF THE WILD (Harrison Ford version). Beezus said it strayed a lot from the book, which i never read and never will. But the alpha dog Buck was inspiring and tearful for me, as i always have wanted to be an alpha (ala superman), who could conquer anything. I remain, as always, not even a zeta. smaller than an ant. able to pull no lady out of her death struggle. failure to even come close to being a human being. i say this not to beat myself up (life can take care of that) but just wishing it weren’t so, and knowing that it will remain that way, even after i die. a stain upon the universe. ha! 1 minute of freedom from this stinking f’ing job so i can write this.
I’m glad you find freedom in writing here.
I saw a movie “The Prom” last night. It’s about a lesbian girl excluded from her high school prom. The plot give me a lot of feelings and tension, but there was a good Hollywood ending with everything turning out right. It put me into a big feeling, maybe about not getting help like that girl got. It’s a musical and I thought it was quite good, I would watch it again. I’m distracted today, not wanting to be at work. At least it’s a short week for me.
Phil
I apparently carry my nightmares around with me, hidden inside, not even needing external triggers. I woke today remembering a dream in which I had just been yelling at an unknown woman and then her husband, because they had stolen all my vinyl records from my garage, and sold them. So I was angrily getting what information I could from them, so I could “do something” to get my albums back, as they tried to hide the info, and they were getting more scared, and I was getting scared of being attacked and hurt. As I woke and remembered, I realized it had been a dream, and I was relieved that it was not reality.
Then I immediately also remembered another recurring dream from the past, in which my brother (who’s dead), had killed some guy, in a complicated scenario. But in the dream which I had thought was real, I knew about the murder for which he had told me the details he had managed to hide, and I was frightened that the govt. or police would somehow find out, and “come after” me, as I worried how to prevent that, if I could. So on some level I had still thought this dream was true, until this morning when I knew it had been a dream from some time ago, I think several years at least, that I had hidden from myself, not wanting to know the danger I was still in, until today.
So then I kind of marveled at how much fear of danger I have inside, and obviously connect it to what happened when I was five years old — that I have previously related — when my parents psychotically called the cops on me for being half-naked in the backyard with a boy probably five years older, and forced both my brother and I to identify the boy to the cops, and my mom told me he was being taken to jail, and that the only reason I did not have to go to jail too, was because I was too young. And besides being shaken and screamed at, my dad “beat / spanked” me with a piece of lath from his garage, and they yelled at both my brother and I that besides “never, ever doing that again”, we were ordered to “never talk about it again”, and no one explained anything about it to me.
And I became amnesiac about the whole thing, seeing it only as a “dark cloud” in a corner of my mind, and it was a dread I walked around with on the schoolyard for years, believing I was already condemned by “god” to go to hell when I died, and at seven I remember crying and wishing I had never been born. But when I was 10 yrs. old, and my mind had developed more, I spontaneously recovered part of my recorded memory, and reasoned my way to seeing that I did not deserve “that fate”, I had not known why it was “bad”, and so it occurred to me that my parents and the church “must be wrong”. I was still not able to talk about it with anyone, until I was 18, and the first time I managed a brief story about it, I was just shaking. The whole incident also played into my brother’s hiding his beginning alcoholism when he was 9 from being molested at 8, by the son of our mom’s best friend. He did not regain sobriety for 24 years, and never told us about the molestation until as soon as our mom died, he was still so afraid. He had told his AA sponsor about it, in the steps of getting sober.
It’s fascinating, Vicki, how slowly, chipping away at it a little at a time over years, you have come to be able to see the big picture. While growing up you were so traumatized it’s a wonder you are so sane.
Vicki,
What a crazy story! Did your parents act that way because they were so religious?
Phil
Larry, I haven’t always felt sane, indeed. In some ways, very much so, but in the midst of some feelings, I doubt my sanity. Chipping away is accurate — too much to feel all at once, it would be impossible. I feel I was lucky to retain some freedom in my mind, that I could think and reason my way through some of the insanity, just by being left mostly alone, as long as I “obeyed”.
Phil, my parents converted to Catholicism that same year I was five. Then we had to attend parochial schools for 12 years, and we were made to go to Mass every day before school. I did not know what their extreme fear was about, until I was 10 and we got the most elementary “birds and bees” movies in school, and then I realized, “Oh, it was about sex!” That was the enormous missing piece! So all the shame and hiding was necessary, to them. Lord only knows what they were brought up with, as children, but as they were born in 1909 & 1914, it was a different generation than even my schoolmates parents. And I knew my mom was prudish, and ashamed of her body, and I learned that fear early on myself — not least from having been terrorized at five years old.
Their conservatism played out in multiple ways — I wasn’t allowed to see movies that my school friends saw, if they were on the church’s “condemned movies” list (e.g. “Goldfinger”). In my early school-years, my daily life involved memorizing religious texts every night, so I could pass the tests of reciting them the next morning. My parents were very active in church “social groups” and we were dragged into that. The only one I liked was singing in the choir for five years. But I was extremely inept socially, frightened, and had no friends (especially after my one friend betrayed my confidence all over the schoolyard). One of my teachers spoke to my mom about my withdrawal, worried. My mom repeated it to me, half-like it was a joke. I was often left out of common social activities that others did; I was in scouts, but always kind of on the fringe, socially.
And they hid from us until I was 18, that my dad had a son and daughter from a previous marriage, so I didn’t even know I had a half-brother and half-sister, that my parents were in contact with, secretly, in shame. My dad disclosed that to me when we got into the car for him to drive me away to college, because he wanted me to hear it from him, and not one of his relatives. That made it clearer why we had so little contact with his family, and he rarely talked about them.
Thanks for asking.
Vicki, what you describe, that was such a rigid and severe environment you grew up in, and fearful. It’s hard for me to imagine. Learning all this about your history gives me a much better understanding. Did your parents belong to a different religious group before they converted to Catholicism?
Phil
Phil, I’m catching up, and just saw this. They were not in any religious group before Catholicism, except kind of “Christians” in my mom’s whole family, but with no committments. But there was none for my dad, my mom was the one who “led the way”. She got my dad, and one aunt and uncle into it, then before my grandmother died, she got converted too, so that at her funeral, all my other relatives (6 sets of aunts/uncles, cousins, etc.) were not Catholics, and somewhat pissed at my mom having taken over my grandmother near the end. My aunt and uncle were our “godparents”, and even more rigidly Catholic than my parents; they went on to join the right-wing of Catholicism that only goes to Latin Mass, like Mel Gibson.
Wow, Vicki, to blame a child for something they had no idea of what was going on instead of asking if they were okay does seem incredible. No wonder you are having bad dreams about fears.
It seems to me that our dreams feel so real and build upon each other that we have parallel lives going on–what happens in our true daily life side by side with what occurs in our dreams, unresolved feelings.
My dreams have a continuing story that picks up where they left off. I don’t know what significance they have though. I keep dreaming my brother is breaking up with another girlfriend, which was over the years several times when he was younger. Yet he has been married a long time now. Could be I worry about the stability around me and old age creeping up on us and things changing.
Thanks, Sylvia. That got my attention — “instead of asking if they were ok”. Yeah, that never happened, regardless of the event or cause. Not when I was five and they felt the need to call the cops. Not when I fell out of a tree and hurt my arm a little, and all my mom could do was be angry at me for tearing my shirt-sleeve. And not over 20 yrs. ago, when I told them I had had a stroke, and my mom immediately looked down, picked up her crossword-puzzle book, and started working in it, without a word — while my dad, in shock, started talking to me.
Gosh, Vicki, it’s like your mom had two reactions, either anger or shut down. It all sounds so repressive and such religious conservancy to stifle any emotion. That is heart-breaking that their ways separated you from feeling a part of group inclusion and to be left out on the fringes.
My family never discussed my mom’s first marriage, so I didn’t know about it. I thought my 2 oldest brothers were my dad’s. Not until they were old enough to move out and I was ten did she tell me they were my half brothers. I guess my mom didn’t think it was important to tell me. I think she didn’t want to talk about a bad marriage with an alcoholic abandoning first husband. Family secrets, eh.
Merry Christmas to you Vicki, and to all here –^ ..^– S
Yes, Sylvia, I have also thought there were two things going on with my mom — fear automatically shutting her down, and going to denial, and more denial if her denial was pointed out. And a mean anger with denial when her anger was pointed out. I felt like she wanted to hurt me, I mean she got pleasure out of it, in feeding her anger, but always denied it — as did her mother, who often lived with us, and I had to sleep with. At five yrs.old, I would move in my sleep, and suddenly grandma would kick me awake, angrily saying that I had kicked her, but of course I had been asleep and no memory of it. I did not like her, I felt she was mean. Grandma is the one who whacked her own 7 yr. old daughter in the head with a cast-iron frying pan, and her 5 yr. old daughter witnessed it, and this aunt told me the story when she was 95 yrs. old, because it still bothered her 90 years after it happened.
Yes, being left out on the fringes was a common feeling for me — in my family, and at grammar school & high school, and in some ways ever since. Some meetings are hard for me, when my feelings of “not being there” or “being ignored” or “I don’t exist” get triggered, and that past becomes the present, like a bad dream that has slipped over me, without my noticing what, or why, or how, and I’m just in extremely confused feelings. I felt some of those over the past week, so it seems just minimally clearer now.
Interesting that your family had secrets hiding a marriage from you, as well as likely from themselves. How did you feel the moment you found out?
Vicki, there certainly was a lot of anger running thru the matriarchy in your growing up. So much for a sweet granny. You really had to tough it out. You seem very independent and have learned to depend on yourself since they alienated you from your peer group with their social conservatism. Even though it is hard to feel all of it you seem to be self-reliant as a side -effect.
I think when I found out that my mom had been married before that I was crushed that she had loved someone besides my dad. Also it finally made sense of all the strange looks that my aunt and grandma gave when I said Mom and Dad’s anniversary was a 22 year instead of the 16 yr one they knew to be true since my oldest bro was 21. No one would betray her and tell, they were afraid of her temper. Mom’s reasoning she said was that she didn’t want me to say to my older brothers that he is my dad and not yours. That, I would have never have said, I adored them. I think my other two brothers caught on sooner, being a little older than me. I just happened to see some mail for my oldest brothers with a different last name and my mom decided she should tell me.
Well, everyone, you all have a good and safe New Year.
S
Thanks, Sylvia. I’m not surprised you felt crushed that your mom had loved someone besides your dad. And that it pieced together the puzzle of strange looks (secrets) from other relatives, that they would not tell, for fear of her. And your mom assumed the worst, that you would want to hurt your brothers — she didn’t know you.
When my dad told me he had been married before my mom, and had two children before me, I was stunned — I remember the moment, sitting in the passenger side of the car, as I felt like a light-switch went off in my head, and part of me shut off. I felt somehow betrayed, I didn’t know these people, like my family was not my family, there were these “other people”. And it more explained why we were “so poor” as my dad had been paying child support — I learned my mom was angry, finding out that his ex had remarried, but hadn’t told him — and that had more repercussions (I didn’t even have shoes that fit, and that caused permanent damage). Nothing is really simple.
My dad dropped me off at college up north, and I was still so stunned, I knew I would have trouble believing it later. I wrote down what my father told me on a notepad so I would have a record, and folded it up and put it in my wallet, where it stayed for 25 years. I read it the first few days, to confirm it happened, and I would periodically reread it, to remind myself I didn’t imagine or dream it. Then I found it one day, thought it was silly to keep, tore it up, and threw it in the trash. But after a few minutes, retrieved all the pieces, taped it together, folded it up and back into my wallet for maybe 10 years more. I probably still have it in a box somewhere I haven’t seen for years.
I have long felt my grip on reality is somehow or sometimes tenuous, which is scary. I had a dream once, that I acted on, not knowing I dreamed it. I was invited to what I thought was a baby shower, and bought gifts, and was talking on the phone getting directions to the house of the woman throwing the shower, and told her my gifts (three snap-shirts and a wiggle-worm), she paused, then said, “Vicki, this is a wedding shower, she’s not pregnant.” I was shocked, and then realized and remembered I had dreamed it. She laughed and laughed, and I rushed out to buy a wedding gift. When I got to the party, she told everyone and they all laughed — except for the bride-to-be, who looked at me like she thought there was something really wrong with me. It’s like there’s something just out-of-phase, sometimes “snapping in” to “my reality”, where I can’t tell the difference.
Happy New Year, and stay safe. I missed that we didn’t have the Rose Parade this year.
Vicki, isn’t that so strange that your dad would keep his other family secret. You probably know if it was your mom’s idea to do so. Yeah, that would be a stunner to find out about it all. I can see why you had to write it down as proof to yourself since no one would openly acknowledge it, it was sort of a denial, like if it wasn’t talked about, maybe it didn’t really happen and you needed that note to yourself to validate reality. I’m guessing it was a load off your dad to reveal the secret.
It’s like our brains are little computers and have to have steady input of a reality to integrate it. A one time admission of another family existing, just couldn’t compute.
I have dreams that seem real too. In the latest ones that bother me are about accidentally running up charges online that I can’t pay for. It’s too easy to buy things online and my brain keeps trying to do it while I’m asleep. I awaken with anxiety in the middle of the night, thinking, ‘what have I done?’ And feel better after a few minutes after realizing it’s not real. It’s not natural to buy online, it’s corrupting my hunting-gathering instincts. There’s no work involved, just a touch of a click.
S
Sorry to interject Sylvia and Vicki, I did read your stories about hidden families and unfortunately I can’t relate to that as my dad never remarried as a widower. However, I just wanted to add that I have to disagree with Sylvia with online purchases being unnatural. I happen to think the ability to buy online is the Eighth Wonder of the World.
1993-1994 were terrible years for me and it was when the Internet was just starting to blossom publicly. I wish I had been more aware of the amazing possibilities before 1997-1998 when I first went online.
I mean…I understand it’s more ‘homey’ and genuine to walk to the local friendly hardware store and say “hi” with some small talk with the cashier and that buying online would be a much more sterile and isolating experience, yet having powerful networks available to everyone can provide efficient pricing and help tamp down localized price gouging and taking advantage of peoples’ ignorance of what things should really be worth, etc.
OK, I’m only going to make one observation here for future retrieval. I was steaming, sputtering, and smoldering over the predator neighbor engulfing me (“FUCK YOU! You didn’t get SHIT from me , did you?”)
I was screaming this at the walls, storming around the house in a furious huff, over and over.
It was seriously destroying my functioning this morning on the immediate task of end-of-year RMD paperwork, hunting around for old passwords, etc.
When I read Vicki’s story the electric charge of my incendiary fury at the predator dissipated. I wish I could explain why.
It’s a good thing, though, I NEED for this fury to dissipate…the electric charge to dissipate, so I can function better on the more urgent mundane tasks.
I’m sorry I can’t give more meaningful feedback to Vicki for what was obviously a crazy and horrid experience for her.
Vicki, I’m really sorry I had to detract from your story. Even I feel inappropriately selfish for detracting from your story. I am literally swimming in the destructive handiwork of selfish asshole predators, and it’s hurting my everyday functioning enough to have these inopportune breakthrough posts distracting from what’s going on with you now. I will try to keep quiet since my story has already been examined.
Guru,
This isn’t like a live conversation in group or something. I think it’s fine for you to interject with anything you want or need to say.
Phil
No problem, Guru, except it’s too bad you were not able to leave your fury dissipated, so you could continue to function better. But no worries about giving me feedback, or detracting.
Seems like there is the switch in you brain that can stop or allow feeding of that fury, UG. If only you were somehow in control of that switch/damper/generator.
There are clearly ‘inert’ and ‘activated’ states to the anger, triggered by a multitude of various routine thoughts or visual objects which can oftentimes be hard, if not impossible, to avoid. (It’s hard to avoid something that completely surrounds you, thus ‘swimming in the destructive handiwork of selfish asshole predators’ as I said earlier)
It’s hugely exhausting and I have settled on the fact I need to do more internal work to try to keep the fury at an ‘inert’ state until I have enough financial power to start returning the favor in a meaningful way.
Guru,
Ideally you would remove yourself from such a triggering environment, and not just do the internal work, if possible.
Phil
Ideally I would have billions of dollars at my disposal and start having TONS of perfectly creative and legal fun reversing the predator/prey roles.
Guru,
you could try writing a letter to Jeff Bezos. Across the street from where I work Amazon has spent millions of dollars adapting an existing building to be a distribution center. Maybe he’d be willing to help.
You actually bring up an interesting story I could tell you, but I would have to email it to you.
Guru,
you have my email. Bezos owns the Washington Post, so he can’t be all bad, but I think he needs to learn the true meaning of Christmas. Which would be to help you out with a $1 billion or so. I typed in “how much”, and google finished my sentence with “money does Jeff Bezos have”, so it’s a very popular question. The answer: 186.7 billion USD.
OK Phil, email has been sent. Let me know you received it? Thanks.
It’s always a good idea to be about the 13th-20th richest person so you’re not a household name.
How many people look up Eduardo Saverin or Dustin Moskovitz when thinking about Facebook? It’s synonymous with Zuckerberg.
Guru,
You have shared about how the predator living next door has changed your neighborhood.
Related to that, while shopping for Christmas the past weekend, I travelled close to my childhood town. So I used the opportunity to take a tour. I went up our old street, which seemed very congested. A few small modest homes had been torn town, and very large new homes replaced them, hardly leaving any other space on those properties. It’s similar around the town, and it just isn’t the nice place I remember any more. I’ve changed too, and my perspective, but there’s more to it than that.
There’s no way I would have wanted to continue living in my childhood home as an adult, or even any where in town because of too many very sad and difficult memories.
Seeing my childhood home always brings up feelings, as does seeing some other parts of town.
Phil
I had more feelings this morning brought up by certain Christmas songs. I made the connection, which shouldn’t be so hard to realize, that I felt remembered on Christmas, in contrast to feeling forgotten by my mother. She must have contributed to Christmas gift giving during my youngest years. I think presents came from both of my parents (or Santa Clause), but I think it was my father who picked out any fun surprises or things I really wanted. After age 5 or so, my mother literally forgot about me every single day of the year.
So this is why, for my own kids, I always made sure they had a birthday party every single year, with a lot of friends attending. On the actual day of their birthdays, I ran out and got helium balloons and put up banners and other decorations. It’s why I run around making sure Christmas is a very special day for them, even now.
Phil
Phil, which songs?
Otto,
for some reason “Holly Jolly Christmas”, and this other one performed by the Jackson Five, “Give Love on Christmas Day”. Thanks for the question.
i should have hugged my wife when she peeked through my bedroom/office door just now. i should have at least turned to look at her. but nooooooooo…. if i see a cat walking around on my porch, i will jump up to greet it. so what a conundrum…there are old feelings that keep me from my wife and feelings schmeelings, i just don’t give a damn. was it my bad uncle who (probably) said, in reference to young child me–‘here he comes again’ in an annoyed voice, when he was working…or not. she was breathing hard last nite and has been very tired this week. we matter of factly assume it is covid. my breathing has been bad all fall. the freeway and the street that is much like a freeway are very near to us, and the air is not that good. but we alive at this minute. i will try tot to depress her too much today. she is a treasure but we are old and getting frail and i cant give a fuck.
Otto,
I sure hope it isn’t Covid. You two should maybe go get tested.
Take care,
Phil
she is overworked and probably sad or depressed about sophie the dog died. we don’t talk about it much and i hardly think about the dog any more. she wants to get a new dog, and i keep saying no, because we will orphan that dog and 9 cats if we catch covid. the most recent thing she said about sophie was, i was looking into her eyes as she was dying. myself, i was touching the dog off and on during her violent death, feeling her heartbeat, good and strong, and in a while not feeling it.
my brother and i have birthdays in december too, just like the other guy in group. but i could never be so eloquent about it as he was. i hate birthdays, christmas and all of the above. could not afford many presents for our kids when they were growing up, so that is a lot of why i hate that stuff. their grandmother gave them gifts but then she died. nuf said, i am still working.
Phil, I just wanted to tell you I strongly disagree with you on keeping and/or moving away from childhood homes. I wish I had had some way of holding onto my mom’s parents’ house in Minnesota. Thankfully it looks as though it’s being taken care of even though it has been repainted and lots of trees planted in the front yard when it was barren during my childhood (except for a row of evergreens along the side of the house, which I would prefer anyway).
Plenty of people worth $15 million or more own multiple homes, including childhood ones.
If you were able to survive whatever happened to you as a child in your childhood home, why couldn’t you survive it as an adult who could physically beat your inner child in an arm wrestling contest or mentally in a political debate?
Guru, that’s just my feeling about my childhood home. It’s clearly different for you. It could have been advantageous to keep it in the family. It’s worth a lot of money these days because of it’s location in a desirable suburb, so some mixed feelings about it.
But, as I said there were too many bad memories associated with it for me. Also I really needed to get out and see the world, not stay where I grew up. My parents originally had the house built before I was born, and they were both from that same town. My father hoped one of us would want to keep it, but he finally became convinced to sell it,
Phil
Guru,
Could you describe further this feeling of wanting to keep childhood houses? What’s that about? What would it feel like having to move? Whether forced by your predator neighbor or some other unrelated reason.
Phil
Phil, the way you structure that first question almost feels as though there is something wrong with wanting to keep childhood homes. I have good memories of family here. Why would I possibly want that torn down? I have no problem moving elsewhere as long as I was sure this house was taken care of while I was away. If you need more details, please email me your questions.
If a childhood home triggers a lot of bad feelings, then wouldn’t it be a free Primal therapy medicine cabinet you could visit or leave at will?
So maybe the question really should be: Why would we want to dispose of or destroy our personalized Primal therapy medicine cabinets? (or perhaps more appropriately called medicine ‘cabins’ shortened from ‘cabinets’)?
Also there are environmental benefits if houses are saved from demolition, appreciation of old architecture and construction techniques, etc.
If the traumas inside a house are truly horrific, then the so-called ‘childhood medicine cabin’ would contain a more more powerful assortment of ‘feeling doses’ to be administered for the adults who revisit the location.
I meant to say ‘much more’ rather than ‘more more’, ha ha
Guru,
I didn’t insinuate there’s anything wrong with wanting to keep childhood homes, nor was tearing them down part of the question. I was just curious, and because this is a therapy blog. You didn’t answer my question about how it would feel to lose your house, or if the one in Minnesota was torn down (which I’m now asking).
I do visit my childhood home, at least to see it from the outside, and that triggers plenty of feelings. To be still living there I’d probably have to be continuously repressing feelings. I think it helps me having a perspective from a distance; changes I see in town are jarring because I haven’t been living there. I like it better where I am now.
Phil
WELL I WOULD WEIGH IN ON CHILDHOOD HOMES BUT I AM WORKING. I DROVE TO WORK TO PICK UP MY NEW ID BADGE, WHICH WE ALSO USE TO LOG ON TO OUR WORK PC’S. BRAVED THE COVID CLOUD BY GOING INTO THE COVID-FILLED OFFICE, AND WE SHALL SEE IF THE FIRETRUCKS COME TO GET ME IN 2 WEEKS OR NOT. I HEAR MANY MORE SIRENS THAN I USED TO. I LISTENED TO THE 80’S CHANNEL, BILLY IDOL, WHITE WEDDING, WHICH GAVE ME A FEW TEARS. I WAS FUCKING 30 ONCE, NOW I AM A GONER. ON THAT NOTE, HAPPY NEW YEAR.
Guru, I was curious why you keep suggesting people write you off the blog about things that come up on the blog ? Gretchen
Gretchen, well all I can say is things can happen for mysterious reasons. I was extra curious as to why in the story shown below Trump made and gave a friendship bracelet only to Annabelle and no one else when the other kids were reasonably nice to him, too:
Our oldest son arrived here on Monday. Now we found out he was exposed to Covid on Saturday when he met up with two friends at his place. So, he’s having to stay in his room, and will be going out to be tested. He isn’t sick yet. We’ll get tested too, early next week and we’ve decided to postpone Christmas. Our other son won’t be coming.
I have a cousin in the hospital with the illness. It’s a Covid Christmas. We hope to be able to celebrate next weekend.
Phil
Phil, chances are very high he will experience few or no symptoms. I have another cousin about your son’s age and she felt literally nothing, though she was quarantined for several weeks.
(Should clarify that the cousin also caught COVID and she’s a nurse..no symptoms)
It’s more of a problem and/or risk for those slightly older than me.
The large research indicates folks with Blood Type 0 do better, appear to have optimal natural immune response. The explanation, this Virus carries A Type antigens and we cannot manufacture antibodies against ourselves.The Meta Analysis, 1.23 million patients, I listened to, spoke to Blood Type, the positive effect of tobacco smoking, the disastrous effects of alcohol consumption , sugar, and glucose fructose/high fructose corn syrup, as having strong correlation to susceptibility, symptom expression, and, severity, -> outcomes. David H
Hmmm my endearing , ” old Salt,” photo has disappeared from the page….I live close to numerous fishing communities, fishers in small boats, 30′ – 100′, on treacherous seas. With the opening of seasons each year tragedy is not a matter of, ” if,” but. rather, ” when.” A scallop boat, 6 crew, sank Christmas week.I find it incomprehensible that life saving floatation working clothing does not exist, and mandatory.
Phil,
that sounds like a stressful situation.
let’s hope you soon know you are all testing negative!
m
Vicki,
did you ever meet those children from your dad’s first relationship?
and did you get my e-mail? I was not sure whether I did not accidentally send it by gmail, which does not work well, Icloud is my standard now.
felt a bit lonely this xmas eve just me and the cats, but just got nicely surprised by a message from long ago girlfriend which made me smile…
to be alone on xmas always sucks more than expected …
Margaret and cats
Sylvia, have a nice holiday season and a healthy and happy 2021!
Margaret, I thought I had replied to your email, so I have just done that. My brothers and I did meet our half-siblings, but it was “mixed”. My half-sister appears very religious, and was inappropriate in the way she “wanted our friendship” to go, so I avoided her for years after, but we have a little contact at Christmas. My half-brother visited a few times, and was friendlier, but he has never been open to more than superperficiality in our phone calls. I’ve also met his daughter and her kids, and still see them on Facebook. They all pulled back a bit, after my mom & dad died.
I am pretty much alone this holiday too — Erin & Tina let me know they want to get together, and give me an urn with Baby’s ashes, but with the pandemic surge, Erin is working overtime in the Covid unit, and they are exhausted — not a good time to arrange a visit. Take very good care with you and your cats! –Vicki
Guru, Well you know that really isn’t Trump don’t you ? In any case what does that have to do with my question exactly? I was asking why you keep suggesting that people write you privately when things come up on the blog ? I just wondered why not finish the conversation here?
What led you to asking whether I knew that really wasn’t Trump?
finally, it is “raining” in l.a. it is “cold” and dreary. they gave us the day off at work, so i paid bills and i started watching how a germans vs. romans battle led to world war 1. this feels like a good christmas to me because i don’t have to go anywhere or see any people. bobo is talking on the phone with one of her many many friends telling someone how she and i watch old movies on tcm together. that is about all we do together, watch tv. we don’t go for minor walks together since the dog died and since it started getting dark so early.
i love a the tiny sprinkle of rain, but it used to cheer me more. i can hear the noises of cars rumbling down the freeway, 5 blocks away. the birds chirp and the squirrel comes for their peanuts and catfood. the outdoor cats hide from the rain and come out only for wet cat food. i am not listening to christmas music this year and today i am devoid of feelings. most likely, i won’t talk in group sunday because what is there to say? i screwed over my kids’ childhoods substantially. i was not much of a husband. every pet i have owned met ignominious fates. my job stresses me out so much that i hate working. sex is no longer a part of my life. i don’t feel anything as i write these tragedies. i wish i could help out the people who have gotten screwed over by trump, no food, no housing, no jobs, but i cant do a damn thing about it. donate money? that is beyond my general paralysis. soon bobo will ask me for one more thing and i will let her know that i don’t want to do an f’ing thing. hohoho
Found this little dance video on Facebook, but I think I can link it here so anyone can see it, even without a Facebook account. These are dancers in Grenada, I like the song of unknown name, and they have so much natural fluidity in their bodies, it’s easy and enjoyable. The link might ask if you want to create an account, but just click on “Not now”, and it will let you in.
You do have to click on the “Watch on Facebook” link, first. But I was logged out of FB, and had no problems. There was no Youtube link, so this looks like the only way.
I kept hunting on YouTube, and finally found the link to the Grenadan dancers, called “Jerusalema Dance Challenge”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=613A9d6Doac
LoL! What I did not know, but just found is that the song is a South-Afro-Carribbean Gospel-fusion about “Jerusalem” as “Home”, and aimed at some “spiritual awakening” But part of why it has apparently caught on globally is a message that resonates with hope for people everywhere, as “This too shall pass.” So regardless of its origins, I like it.
I posted a message but I don’t see it. I’m sure if I try to rewrite it, then it will show up. We’re having a non-Christmas here. But when everyone is done with it, we still can have it to look forward to (I hope).
Phil
Phil, you posted up above that you’ve “decided to postpone Christmas”, as your son came with Covid, and you are getting tested too. Your message is there.
Vicki, I posted another one which disappeared, and I’m not feeling inspired to rewrite it.
Well, Merry Christmas is almost here, everyone. I just found out that my dearly-departed Baby-dog’s parents, Erin & Tina, both caught Covid for the past 13 & 10 days, respectively, but are both doing well so far in recovering. Erin is a nurse who has been working overtime in and out of a hospital Covid unit, and I know she was being super-careful, but in the current surge, I guess not enough. Erin said she has had some shortness of breath, but it is now getting better not worse. Neither one has been sick enough to need a hospital. They are both in their mid-40s and have a few pre-existing conditions, so I sure hope they are right about the course. I will see them from only a distance tomorrow as we exchange gifts via their porch. They have Lysol, and I have my masks and gloves, so I don’t need to contact anything, and will then wait four days to open. One gift I will receive is a little urn with Baby’s ashes.
Merry Christmas to us all! — another week to go, to this incredible year.
Just got back from picking up my presents from Erin & Tina’s. I couldn’t open them yet, but the urn just had a bubble-wrap piece on top, so I put on fresh gloves and took it off — and started howling & crying. It has one of my favorite photos of Baby on top, and a plaque on the side with “You were my Favorite Hello & my Hardest Goodbye”. Wow! I’m glad I didn’t see all that on the driveway in front of their house. I might’ve scared the neighbors, them, and even the dog, with my noise. I gave them a photo-frame with “Thanks for Everything. I had a Wonderful Time.”
Erin also said she doesn’t know how she caught the virus — she was doing all her same strict precautions at work (changing masks & 3 layers of gloves, & clothes & shoes, full-showering, etc). But she said many of the other nurses had already gotten it months ago, before she joined the unit in July. She and Tina have had different symptoms too. She’s had more fever & coughing than Tina. But both their jobs have already called, wanting them back at work — and they are not gonna do it, yet, thankfully.
Merry Christmas!
vicki, i am glad you are able to howl and cry about baby. you loved her so much and really took care of her.
Thanks, Otto, I am glad for that too. I miss her so much. She was just so much in the present, always eager to see me, whenever I came to her home, these last 3 years. She loved going for walks, to smell whatever was there. I wish I could have done more for her, but I know I did all I really could. I have the strong impression from all you’ve written, that you very much loved your Sofie, as well.
maybe wolves’ deep emotions and love of pack shaped human evolution, rather than the other way around. or that other word that some scientists use. symbiotic relationship? or whatever is the one where the combination of 2 things is greater than whatever should break my paralysis and spread the ashes that remain of the last 3 dogs we had. in out back yard. i sat for a good while in the backyard today since there are usually only 2 to 3 months of bearable weather here in the valley. blue sky and slowly-moving wispy clouds, fig tree, palm tree, airplanes flying to the little airport, air is still breathable. watching squirrels and birds eat the peanuts i put out for them. and the wild cats who would like to get ahold of them and tear them apart. the feeding area is high enough that those preys are fairly safe. the raccoons continue to come at night and eat cat food and peanuts. i actually was motivated to exercise on the gazelle for 1/2 an hour outside in the beautiful weather; hope i continue, since i am old and fat. my aunt texted me that her son’s 29-year-old son had died on december 23. i am sure i should call them, maybe tomorrow.
Wolf’s Sweet Voice Inspires 50 Wolves to Howl https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUpQFMEb9po
i don’t know why this scene hits me in the gut everytime. i cry every time.
It’s a Wonderful Life (1946) Legendary Phone Kiss https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc0Y_DKkuuU
this is not a nice xmas for me.
of course I count my blessings, health ok, health of family ok, even cat hasn’’t been ill for 5 entire days.
but yesterday xmas eve and today xmas nobody called me, from my family.
I did call my mom which was nice, but brother and sister and sister in law just sent me a what’s ap, which ends up making me feel sad and lonely.
was already sad watching the news at noon, some people talked about having lost a wife, parent or child to Corona, it is all so sad…
luckily tomorrow and sunday will see a girlfriend , and another girlfriend will also take me to see mom.
and I got my calendar for the volunteer work at the phone helpline, from januaru on my weeks will suddenly get pretty busy, with three hour shifts and more coaching meetings with the other trainees.
and a separate meeting with a staff member to check out the software hurdles and how we can deal with them.
it feels like a big challenge right now, triggering an old fear of not being able to cope but well, that is not an unfamiliar feeling as it tends to rise before every challenge.
it can get very unpleasant early in the morning, as it seems to be linked with birth problems so it has deep and threatening roots and is hard to really access, impossible so far really, just chips here and there as Larry would say…
and the odd nightmares with deadly fears overwhelming me…
right now it is bleak sadness, but that seems to be xmas gloom with some corona syrup…
merry xams all anyway, and let’s go for the new year and make it better!!
M
Margaret. you said your family members “just sent me a what’s ap” — is that just a text message? I got a text message from friends today by phone, instead of a call. I also find it sad and lonely. But when I can just let myself have those feelings, it does help too, so that I’m not suffering as much. I hope this improves for you.
Margaret,
Sorry it’s not a nice Christmas for you. I guess holidays can create expectations. We’re in a state of suspension here, although we enjoyed a nice dinner. No one is sick yet, so I’m hopeful that won’t happen.
Phil
We hope you all have a happy holiday and a happy and healthy new year! Gretch and Barry
Vicki,
yes, a text message on what’s ap.
I was able to cry several times yesterday, triggered by music, the news or just my thoughts, once while eating soup, just out of the blue, gloomy feelings of being alone on these ‘festive’ days…
margaret
my small reactions. presents are over-rated. (i am keeping the reactions PG in this blurb, for whatever reason). I HATE presents, maybe because my grandma and my brother would always go to my cousins’ house for Christmas, and those kids all got tons of presents under the tree, and had a mother and father, and on and on. all the hoopla of the “nice christmas” is over-rated. My grandma spent all her time cooking the “nice dinner” with her daughters, and zero time with me, except maybe to say snarky stuff about anyone and anything. And tell me to eat eat eat. Stuff it down. i don’t like the control-freakiness that i heard today, although i am beginning to see that maybe it is just my own pain. . also i think if one kid is only able to express himself with negativity during the celebration, that the only words that should be spoken to him are, “wow, you must feel pretty bad to be so negative”. (OR AT LEAST A FUCKING KIND WORD OR EMPHATIC LOOK OR HUMOROUS ASIDE –DELICATE HUMOR (like bb)!) NOT— “well dad gonna tell the scowling kid a thing or two later ABOUT HIS BEHAVIOR ” (my wording and my feeling about the situation that was given to my ears today). i realize that the scowling kid might be hard to reach right then and there, but it bothers me that a negative reaction to a negative reaction takes place. “ONLY PEOPLE WHO KNOW JUST HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE”—thanks lennon…and I think it is a really a way of a parent suppressing their own real feelings. but what the f do i know? i was, and i remain, a parent who was so overwhelmed that i probably had the same stupid reactions to my kids. Of course, it’s easier to say in hindsight. And the fuck…there ain’t no way I could ever say anything like that in the large pack of alphas today. Pretty much the silence I had in the big groups of the past, 40 people in the post-group, lots of alphas, but thank goodness, you don’t have to talk in group, to get something out of group. i always manage to get a bone or two, and i manage to run away and hide it from the big dogs. they would just love to take those tiny bones away from me. guess we need the alphas to make the world go around, but everyone besides me appears to be an alpha.
nope my bone disappeared. and i realized, once again that i thought i was better than everyone else, when deep down, i knew that wasn’t true. anyway, i had significant thoughts last night after i read something about ‘only people’ NOT being a song about primal therapy. i based a lot of my ambitions on getting therapy in 1975 because of such lennon songs. i finally got therapy after 10 years of struggling. i proceeded to literally fail at this therapy because of my abject fear of people and my drunkeness and….. when the navy docs said i was schizo, i should have believed them. a little bit of a blow to realize this late in the game. now i go work on computers. oh joy.
Otto,
despite not saying much in group, you are very good at writing about your feelings her, very detailed and clear.
could you put words to what exactly makes you feel like not speaking up in group?
I can assume stuff, but only you can tell.
M
Otto,
what you mentioned about your fear of people made me understand better.
can you imagine how it would be for you to express that fear to the group?
M
Otto,
despite not saying much in group, you are very good at writing about your feelings her, very detailed and clear.
could you put words to what exactly makes you feel like not speaking up in group?
I can assume stuff, but only you can tell.
M
I have still been getting feelings listening to Christmas music. Our Christmas here might be on Thursday if things go right. Some of it was focused on my sister, who is 9 years older than me. We had a good relationship in childhood, and she gave me a lot. For the first time I had feelings of needing her, even though she wasn’t really a parental figure. I remember her taking me to Manhattan to see the sights, when I was about 10, for example. It was a short train ride, but no one had ever taken me there.
But, if Christmas could be nice, at school I had a terrible time with so much anxiety I could barely function. I couldn’t tell anyone about that or expect any help.
Phil
So much anxiety you could barely function, and unable to tell anyone, sounds awful, Phil.
margaret, thanks for the idea. i dont have time to list the reasons i have to fear about speaking up in general, let alone in group. hatred and jealousy, well, maybe they will be the death of me. well well, well at least in the old old big groups, i got 15 -20 minutes to have words come out of my mouth and into a therapist’s ears. even if i did leave big group feeling angry and insane because i was left with a dangling feeling that i was going to have to choke down because i had no primal friends to talk to, i really did not understand what i needed to do with my therapy. although one can certainly get something out of group, even if they don’t speak up, if one does not do sessions, or be a part of the primal community, one could have their pain become unbearable. at this point, i don’t trust a single person in general (let alone primal) anymore, and the savior of going down the hall to speak to myself in the empty room during group, well, that is no longer available, although i had gotten to the point of not trusting that either (before covid). anyway it’s been nice chatting, but now i do my job. can’t edit this to make it understandable, no time left. zoom group has been something i looked forward to for the past many months, since i don’t go to my job and talk to real people since march. but i am too afraid of group anymore and i wouldn’t want to creep anyone out by hiding my face in the zoom window. of course, i could hide myself very well in plain sight in “real live” group at the institute and i don’t remember anyone complaining about me then. it has been good to have zoom group these past months (and every week, instead of every two weeks) and hear the stories of people who live afar and can’t go to “real live” group. thanks covid, you have been real swell. uh oh, he’s coming for me now.
Otto, as you might know by now, I always have questions that come to my mind, when I read people’s posts, and the main one that occurred to me when I read yours, is, “Why don’t you trust a single person?” Is that a general lack of trust in yourself, or lack of trust in your own sanity, or lack of confidence in your judgements about any or all of it, or is it simply based on your experiences with untrustworthy people from your past, like those you have written about on this Blog, and sometimes express in groups?
phil, i can easily picture you with your big sister sitting next to you on the train. i don’t know why school makes a lot of kids so anxious. i remember being picked to be santa in out 3rd grade class in hollywood, and when the day of the play came, i faked sick, and i can’t remember how i let the teacher know i wasn’t coming, but obviously i was already terrified of people seeing me. i guess my bad uncle (who i lived with for 8 months when i got ripped away from my mom at 10 months old) had really scared the shit out of me (daily) in various ways of making me fear for my life, if i was seen or heard by him. i felt horrible when we moved to a long beach and my new 4th grade class, where i felt as bad then, as i do now in group. away from my kind aunt and uncle that we left behind in hollywood, where at at age 5 through 8, i had finally gotten somewhat stable after the hell of losing my mom and being with my homicidal texas uncle . stable enough to have a 3rd grade
girlfriend, although i was left alone a lot after school. left alone with tv and comic books. this girl had obviously tried to befriend me in hollywood, saying to me that she would “divorce” her current 3rd grade beau. i tried to call her from the pay phone in long beach, which was next to the liquor store where i eventually made money by finding soda bottles that i could turn in for cash. soda bottles i could find at the beach as i wandered around by myself with no one to help me. anyway, i would only see my aunt and uncle once a week when my grandma and my brother and aunt and uncle would drive to hollywood every sunday for church. we would go out to eat after my grandmother, my brother and me attended church (sunday school–more kids i left behind). we did sing at sunday school, so i guess it was not all crazy. i had a kind teacher in 5th grade who tried to pull me out of my shell, and i actually did come out of it. only to be undermined by my stupid brother’s need to take me shoplifting, which got us sent to military school instead of 6th grade in my new school. 6th grade where i could have learned more about boys and girls and how to feel comfortable with that transition to that big life change. instead i lived in a barracks with other 6th grade boys and zero girls. i did get an ugly mean old housemother, who yelled hatefully at me when i parroted what our science teacher had told us that day about people being a part of the animal world. i learned to be very secretive from that point on, and my only relief was food. just a prison there, and most of the boys did not like that shithole.
Otto, When I go to Zoom group I’m always glad to see you there. I guess you’re right that it can be helpful whether saying anything or not in group.
I was practically mute in school, very shy and anxious around groups of kids and most individuals. This only got worse in middle school and high school. I went through puberty and especially couldn’t talk to any girls, which was a big reason why I came to therapy. I didn’t and couldn’t go to any school dances. I had a very miserable time in school and college too, up until the time when I started therapy. After that things started to improve a little. It’s all mostly because of what my mother did to me, abandonment, punishments, and completely forgetting about me. A lot of my big feelings which come up have to do with remembering good things, like what I got from my sister or other people,, which was a contrast, but not enough to fix the damage already done.
Phil
I rarely visit this site, because I can’t focus long enough to go through all these conversations, but from time to time I do stalk you guys here. I noticed Jack died, who I never met or talked to, but nonetheless felt sorry to hear. My condolences to all his friends – but the final reason I write is that Leslie West died also and since I have no one around me who knew him (my son is too young, my wife has different interests) I’d like to share my pain with you:
May he not ever rest and continue to play.
Ulrich
Ulrich, I knew of his name, and the group West, Bruce, and Laing, but did not know his music beyond “Mississippi Queen”, because I wasn’t a heavy metal fan, except occasionally and peripherally. Learning about him, I’m amazed he made it as far as 75 years, considering all the drugs — he may have been surprised about that, too, like a lot of other performers have said about their crazinesses. And that is sad.
My wife and I got vaccinated today with the Pfizer vaccine. Another shot is scheduled for Jan 21. My own appointment was made via telephone a week and a half ago, at which time both shots were scheduled. I got to the vaccination center on time and the whole thing – waiting in line and a shot – took about 5 minutes + another 15 to wait nearby to make sure no adverse reactions will occur.
My wife scheduled her appointment today at 17:00 to receive the shot today at 17:30 at another center, newly opened some 15 minutes drive from where I got mine. The wait there was about half an hour.
These are the immense benefits of universal healthcare and a reasonably competent leadership.
Happy New Years to everyone on the blog.
Making it through another year is a huge milestone no matter what.
I remember always being mildly jealous of my best friend in high school since he made straight A’s (4.0 grade point average), was very popular, partied a lot, had exciting girlfriends, etc.
He died in 2005 needing a liver transplant due to extreme alcoholism.
My mom was a hugely ambitious financial industry badass and I’ve already outlived her chronologically by twenty years as well.
Here I am, mediocre Beta boy tiptoeing into 2021…so yeah every day I exist is a miracle of sorts and should be treated as such. My very existence being a quietly defiant “fuck you” to the sustained, invisible forces out to crush me.
Ugg, sometimes your words read like pure poetry to me. Your last two sentences inspired me to write this:
Here I am, Mommy
Please see me as a miracle, Mommy
Don’t treat me like your mediocre Beta boy, Mommy
I’m tired of tiptoeing around you, Mommy
I’m tired of my very existence being an act, Mommy
An act of quiet defiance against you, Mommy
An act that whispers “fuck you, Mommy”
As you relentlessly
And in a sustained way
Use your invisible forces
To crush me
I am a miracle, Mommy
And miracles deserve to exist
And be acknowledged
And appreciated
And loved
Not crushed
Here I am
Mommy
Renee, I thought about your poem and I did feel the style of it being especially artful as to how it trails off towards the end. It is truly plaintive, stark, and pleading. My only personal conflict with it is knowing my mother would have loved me dearly under normal circumstances and would have done anything in her power to help me become successful and happy, so my echoing your poem to her would feel really wrong to me in that regard.
I’m glad you finally found some poetic words within my typing verbiage. I suppose any monkey with a typewriter writing 100 million words and inevitably, statistically, 20 words will eventually collide together into pure poetry by accident? (self-deprecating humor to keep myself in a safe cubbyhole and not grow into something large)
I’d clean up my last sentence as,,,”I suppose any monkey using a typewriter could write 100 million words and will inevitably, statistically, collide 20 words together into pure poetry by accident?”
My writing is frequently hurried and sloppy because of external stressors and thoughts.
Thanks for the feedback, Ugg. I’m glad that you could appreciate my poem. I see that you have provided more inspiration to create another poem. Perhaps this one will be more accurate:
My life does not take place
Under normal circumstances
My life is really wrong
It is stark
Plaintive
Pleading
For my mother to be alive
For my mother to love me dearly again
And for me to feel happy
Cars colliding together
An accident
My mother became a statistic
Inevitably
I shattered into a 100 million pieces
And learned to keep myself safe
In a cubbyhole
Haunted by external stressors
And thoughts that are hurried and sloppy
Like too much verbiage
I’m too scared to grow into something large
Too scared to grow up
As my life trails off towards the end
Renee, I typed out a much longer post here and it was lost. Will have to try again. Might be a delay.
Shit, it’s just not working. I have a full response posting on my wordpad and copy/paste is not doing it. Not sure what to do on this one.
Hi Ulrich!
margaret
Hi Margaret. Hope you’re doing fine. Hope, your mother as well! (Sry, been too dump to hit on reply)
Hi Margaret. Hope you’re doing fine. Hope, your mother as well!
I didn’t have a good start to the new year. A huge freezing rainstorm left enormous weight hanging off the frozen trees in front of my house and a 10-foot branch about 8 inches in diameter fell right onto my parked car, completely obliterating my rear windshield into 15 million little pieces I had to clean up in the frozen ice (vacuuming green glass with frozen ice nodules is a bit surreal). My trunk was damaged to where it won’t open either.
I shared this crisis with my cousin and, out of habit, she started getting stressed herself and screaming at me which strikes me as really stupid and obnoxious. I did tell her yelling at me when I’m in a crisis is the OPPOSITE of what I need. I need a calm, reassuring, quiet voice for those moments.
Since my cousin changed my diaper as a baby, I’m sure she probably did this yelling and screaming at me when I am already in a crisis…making me hate her in those moments. Now as an adult I’m trying to show her why that’s a terrible thing to do (at least with me).
The damage to the car was not insured, so yeah I’m pretty grumpy that the entirety of my $600 stimulus check ….likely more than that…went to a stupid falling tree branch.
SS Guru, sorry you are ‘out’ on a limb. Bummer. To add to your plight you get no calm reassurance from your older cousin, like perhaps you would have from your dad. She probably felt helpless as some of us do when we cannot help or reverse a misfortune. Like the little kid who falls from a tree and is hurt and is blamed for his injury, there’s the hindsight, ‘what if’ precautions could have been taken. It’s a bummer that you got no sympathy. So, I’m thinking there is a big deductible on your insurance.
As for the unnaturalness of shopping online…yes there is no interaction, like going to the hardware store among other hunters, true. But you don’t get the feel of the tool, the touched weight, the give and take between the owner or staff that you are contributing to each others need, the service given, the payment rendered that will support his/her business and ultimately their family.
Taking out the good reasons to not risk covid exposure, if you look at the reward of shopping online, it is a momentary hit of satisfaction, a little dopamine shot of instant gratification where you don’t have to do much. What’s to remember, no people to see, no aisle to walk down and search, no exchange of money that I can allocate and be aware of saving enough for gas and veggies at the grocery. No, just click a button and wait a few days until the mail or ups fellow comes to deliver what I forgot I even ordered. But I must say, I have a friendship now with my mail lady and ups guy.
Sylvia, to me your first paragraph has echoes of what happened to Vicki when she described her backyard story and her parents calling the cops. As I’m sure you know, people can react very badly and blame the wrong person when feeling helpless in a crisis.
It was a mild struggle for me to respond to everyone today because I am dealing with a deep brain frailty of tightly looping and repeating thoughts. A primal buddy suggested that someone who repeats his or her words is re-enacting the struggle against being ignored. Sounds plausible, but maybe not the whole picture for me there, not sure.
I never thought of the possible UPS and mail carrier friendships, good catch. Maybe that’s where all the hardware store Chatty Cathy cashiers end up working in the Amazon online era?
guru, sorry for your branch encounter. anyway, i might as well say something bad about owls, since people in group seem to think they are god’s greatest gift to humans, and i don’t want to spoil the mood. babs, me, and the 2 kids moved to lake arrowhead around 1197 or so. stupidly moved therte.
Thanks Otto, I’m always ingratiated even with a few minor words thrown my way. It does suck, but it’s fixable.
well, maybe later. anyway, owls probably killed the kid’s homing pigeons. that was just 1 of the million horrifying things that went on in that time of our lives. by the way, the ducks and geese at lake balboa, in my opinion, have actually interbred. maybe they are not so much as new species, but neanderthal screws sapiens. bobo and i drove through that park yesterday. we saw albert the goose being fed by 2 old people. babs loves that goose and we were both glad to see that he was safe. those birds at that park get fed quite well and the lake they created with cleaned sewr water contains many small fish that are fished for by man and bird.
marshall, catnip mouse for bored kitty. maybe. our poor bored cats would love to be outside but too dangerous.
speaking of romantic comedies, babs and i watched 3 tom hank’s movies lastnite. laary crowne was the one i liked best. i never had wanted to watch it before because i had a bad opinion of julia roberts. but this was good. watch it. but, speaking of talking, did “little l” start talking to you? bobo said she will wash the sheets so we can do what we assume larry crowne and mercedes were going to be doing next. lkibido in general? still there a little. but a little like ‘little otto’.
yep, one of us will go first. unless you can convince your partner to crash your airplane into the mountain. ow. i have to make light of another one of life’s absurdities.
deep end of the primal pool? harsh truth? damn, bb! eloquent, touching, and true. not to be disrespectful but jeez would i like to see public service announcements like that on tv.
We celebrated Christmas here on New Year’s Eve and New Years Day, because of Covid exposure. Luckily everyone is fine and we tested negative.
My younger son had to leave today because he has to work tomorrow. I have to work tomorrow too, and my wife, which will be hard. As he was packing up to leave, my son was complaining about his upset stomach. We were talking about things he ate causing that, but to me it probably had more to with the bad feeling of having to leave abruptly, and the holiday being over. It was making me feel that way too, for him. This is the first time he’s fully in the work world. I’d like it to still be easy and relaxed for him, as it’s always been, but I can’t fix that.
Other things are bothering me, but I don’t feel able to write about it here.
Phil
Sylvia, Renee, and Otto: My brain has been sloshed in lots of despair, anxiety, and sense of resignation today. I can’t bring myself to address Sylvia’s comforting words or Renee’s poem, at least not yet. It’s been a busy and stressful Sunday for me as well, and not all of it is about the car. I will try to take this up again tomorrow when I am in a better place.+
Phil, I’m glad your son is now out of the woods. His chances of recovery were quite high, anyway.
I think in response to Renee’s poem and Sylvia’s comforts and simply say I want my mom and dad back. This Minnesota picture is from shortly after their wedding some years before I was born (the young couple behind my smoking cool grand uncles).
https://ibb.co/HnjrLrn
Ulrich,
yes, we are ok, mom had Corona in march but recovered in 1 week.
she is 90 now, little to no short term memory but still a good sense of humor and very sweet.
how are you doing?
how old is your son now?
any chance you’d participate in one of the Sunday (our) evening Zoom groups?
I like the format, for me they work very well even while I can’t always attend.
M
M,
Glad, Corona didn’t have a more serious effect on your life or your mother’s health. (y)
I had a mild infection myself last spring (unvalidated, I have never been tested), with nearly no symptoms at all (apart from having a strange cold), but unfortunately am still struggling with some neurological problems from time to time, such as feelings of suffocations and similar to your mom some sort of short term memory difficulties. However, sometimes it is as if the Covid sickness triggers a body memory I can’t handle very good. (As a baby I nearly died due to suffocation and just survived, because an accidently present health service person brought me back to life. To make matters worse, I started to have feelings of ‘them’ wanted me to be dead …)
Our son is 28, soon 29, and lives with his girlfriend 15 miles from here. We hardly see each other, maybe 2 or 3 times a month, and I miss him. Guess that’s part of getting older ;-(
Thanks a lot for inviting me to your Zoom group, I do appreciate, most certainly think about it and wil come back to you on this matter. Since I lost my last job 2 years ago I didn’t waste much time on technological changes and therefor know nothing about Zoom. I noticed it got a big push in Corona times, but don’t know how it works. But I will check on it.
Ulrich
well, if you didnt watch larry crowne yet–SPOILER ALERT. There’s a few of us guys that like the girl to do some of the heavy lifting; that is, the initial move that ends up with guy and gal in bed.
Larry Crowne (The kiss- Watching this movie always puts me in the best mood. This scene is SO GOOD.) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ocQvdjnpAGc. well, that worked for me 44 years ago, but not so much lately. well, you can watch this with the object of your desire and maybe the movie will do the heavy lifting.
spoiler alert 2 larry crown. you must see the econ teacher scenes (George Takei). what he does with laughing reminded me how hearing patients cry during big groups often get me crying too.
Thank you, Otto for the “Larry Crowne” suggestion. I saw it a few years ago and thought it was just so, so. I’ve just seen some of the scenes again besides the one you posted and notice how my view of this rich movie has changed, as it has with many of the movies I watch now. Strange how once you take all the buzzing crap from the brain by feeling old pains how clear and delightful these cinematic creations can be.
S
the outdoor cats are going through friskies wet food like whatever. they don’t fully trust me and why should they. just got off a 2 hour-long phone call with kid, 34 years old i guess. longest time i talked to him since…ever. he and his wife and 2 young children are in the process of moving north near san luis obispo. far away from their cramped san pedro apartment, where we hardly ever saw them, to another place we will probably rarely see them. It is a much more rural place than l.a. beef cow, lambs and grapes. Kid told me the lambs scream when they are taken from their mothers. They decided to not move into the house that was next to the lamb farm. I haven’t eaten lamb in many years because…how fucking cruel can life be. my kid was driving in the dark up the 101 in his truck f150, some items in the truck that they didn’t get the movers to take up there and he has to work in the morning. i stayed on phone because he wanted to talk and it can be lonely to drive at night when you are alone and there are many miles to drive. The kid got a fairly decent job at some brewery restaurant up there. Hopefully they all don’t catch covid from the unmasked movers. his wife had a panic attack today about moving away from her mom. The mom was supposed to move up there with my son’s family, but changed her mind to stay near her younger daughter in pedro. His wife and the kids are with her mom tonight. On my back porch, the feral mom cat hisses at her 2 remaining 1 1/2 year olds. she has had enough of motherhood and keeps to herself unless friskies is involved. I feel nothing and I constantly think about dying. Jesus h. fucking Christ. I have taken the life course 101 many times, and failed every time. Now comes the raccoons for some peanuts and water. Now comes bobo to say that the kid next door texted her, yeah the dog barking next door last night was indeed cold, and the deaf brother finally gave the dog a blanket for whatever house it has. Not barking yet. tonight. Bobo wants to give the dog sophie’s old bed since sophie is dead. Bobo also got a good heart. I tired, that dog woke me up last night and I never got back to sleep.
bobo say what can we do to help the kid and his wife and his kids? i say, no idea. white cat keeps sneezing and trump still exists. i just don’t know. my kid’s wife worked as a teacher a little and told him about unfortunate poor kids in wilmington, who will probably grow up to be in gangs and jail. i have no idea what the fuck i can do to help. and the beat goes on.
nice pix, guru. cool uncles mom and dad.
Thanks Otto. I believe that pic was taken in the very late 1960’s. Everybody was staring directly into the afternoon sun so all their eyes were squinted, haha.
Ulrich,
I am sorry to hear about your health problems. some of them sound very much like an old feeling experience pushing its way up to the surface.
it sounds like an extremely terrifying feeling.
and it is not my Zoom group, smiley, it is Gretchen and Barry’s Zoom group, really nice, as people all over the world can participate if they want.
I am confident Gretchen will send you an invitation if you would like to try it.
you don’t need to do anything for it, not even install Zoom.
it is a very accessible software program, all you have to do is click on the link Gretchen would send you, and then click on the buttons to activate your video and audio systems to be able to actively participate and be heard and seen.
if you choose speaker view, which I do, anyone talking immediately covers your whole screen, which makes it very much like personal interactions. you can just talk in a normal soft way and you will be heard by everyone, and appear on their screens as one of the small group member screens or in a larger way for those who chose speaker view.
for me it is a perfect format, as it is much easier to follow and participate in conversations, without having to raise your voice or prick up your ears like in normal big groups, where it can be hard to hear what someone far away is saying.
so yeah, I am a fan, no need to buy software, just activating the invitation is all it takes.
M
Margaret,
Thanks for your explanations, sounds to me like the 21st century equivalent of the big groups of the 80’s. I need to upgrade my hardware, but will certainly check on that.
And many thanks for a sentence you wrote, it helped more you can imagine. It actually is extremely terrifying, so much my body produced a couple of physical symptoms, some of them life threatening or at least being felt as such. Don’t know for what reason I thought I had to stand or get beyond that overall feeling of fear … Obviously it just needed an empathic person to switch the perspective. Big thank you!
Ulrich
I got vaccinated today! With the Pfizer Covid product. I feel very lucky to get it so soon. I’ll have to go back to get a 2nd dose in 3 weeks, and I still have to be very careful. An excess amount of paper work was needed to be able to get it, to prove I was eligible. Only 4 people from where I work could get a vaccine right now.
Two out of three nurses here don’t want to be vaccinated. One admits she’s heavily into conspiracy theories, yet administers chemotherapy to patients every day. The other nurse is very mistrustful and cynical. I remember she was excited to vote for Obama, but because Obama didn’t do enough for the black community, he let them down, she would never vote again, even with Trump on the ballot. It makes me afraid that large numbers of people will refuse to get the Covid vaccine.
Phil
just watched the news, it is surreal and crazy what Trump still tries to do.
his crazy followers are scary in their blind fanaticism, it is not nice of me but their denial of Corona and provocative actions might pass the infection to a bunch of them. part of me does not feel too bad about that idea, maybe it will bring some sanity in their heads, after all, or maybe I am too optimistic.
i really hope so much the second democrat senator gets elected as well, the first one winning from that arrogant woman, while also being the first black winner in Georgia and being of the same background as Martin Luther King, brought tears to my eyes.
Rump comes across like well, worse than a mean dog, just nasty and hateful.
Ulrich, I relate to what you say about the fight with the fear.
I know I have had a traumatic birth, causing an ongoing feeling of ‘I might not be able to cope’, before every event that feels a bit like a challenge, and in order to function the only option is to ignore the fear and to go anyway.
but recently I also got confronted with a more acute version of that fear, in the preparations of my new volunteer job, which felt very disruptive, until after having done all I could practically to prepare for the actual challenge, I could tell myself it was ok to feel afraid, which surprisingly enough immediately diminished the tension.
I don’t know if I will ever be able to address the terror of almost dying during birth, in a primal kind of way, as so far only in my nightmares I get chunks of terror in a disguised way, murderers catching up with me, or being stuck on the edge of a cliff or dangerous roof etc.
as Larry would say, chipping away bit by bit.
wish you the very best, without fear courage would not exist.
M
I agree. There’s not very much that makes me wish to feel this shit (accept maybe being someone special then, ha) and if I’d have the chance I’d leave it all alone and try to enjoy the time that’s left for me. Unfortunately it’s developing all by itself, however, at least mostly in the Larry-way. I guess that’s the rule of life and except being as honest as possible and relying on other people there’s not much we can do about it. take care. ulrich
Protesters have breached the Capitol and they have had to suspend the electoral college counts and debates.
https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/politics/electoral-college-updates-congress-set-to-confirm-bidens-win-amid-gop-challenges/2488001/
Is this a Coup? https://isthisacoup.com/
Yes it is a coup. A TV ratings coup.
There’s a video Trump posted saying to the angry mob “I love you. You’re very special. I know how you feel.” Maybe the protestors’ parents never told them these sweet platitudes when growing up and that’s why they fall sway to charming salesmen and demagogues?
I read the updates to the link I posted, and the results got-to-me emotionally, just how bad things got today, or at least how affected the govt. officials felt about being threatened where they work. I didn’t know that ‘Hundreds of mostly unmasked people gathered outside capitols on Wednesday with Trump flags and “Stop the Steal” signs — including Minnesota, New Mexico & Utah. In Georgia and Oklahoma, some demonstrators carried guns. A brief scuffle between pro-Trump demonstrators, who included members of the Proud Boys, and counterprotesters broke out in Columbus, Ohio. Trump held a rally earlier Wednesday and urged his supporters to march to the Capitol, telling them to “get rid of the weak Congress people” and saying, “get the weak ones get out; this is the time for strength.”
Several more of Trump’s staff resigned their posts after they saw what happened today, including Melania’s Chief-of-staff.
‘Trump has pressured his vice president to toss electors from battleground states that voted for Biden during the session. President Donald Trump is vowing that “we will never concede” as he speaks to supporters shortly before Congress is to convene for a joint session to confirm the Electoral College vote won by President-elect Joe Biden.
… Continuing his pressure-campaign against Vice President Mike Pence, Trump told supporters falsely that all Pence has to do to stay in office is send Electoral College votes back to the states to be recertified. Pence has no such unilateral power under the Constitution and congressional rules that govern the count. It is up to the House and Senate to voice objections, and in any case the states’ electors were chosen in accordance with state law, not fraudulently. “Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us,” Trump said, “and if he doesn’t it’s a sad day for our country.” Trump said it would take courage for Pence not to contest the results.’
It’s incredible just how far into derangement Trump has gone, as if his very life depends on keeping power over the world, he cannot get enough of it, and he believes he has nothing to fear, no consequences. It reminds me of when he said long ago, that he could stand on 5th Ave. and shoot people, and his supporters would still accept it.
https://www.lawyersgunsmoneyblog.com/2021/01/why-is-trump-so-desperate-to-remain-president
Not bad, Guru, I like the family picture, too. So 15 days to see if Repubs have the guts to evict him from office, or what other trouble he will perpetrate on the country, in his last gasps at power.
The whole thing today even went “too far” for Repubs McConnell and Pence — who I never thought would cross Trump — they reached their limits of lack-of-conscience. Very few are still digging their holes deeper — Ted Cruz “leading” that disaster.
https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/06/politics/us-capitol-lockdown/index.html
I’m just documenting a few things today from the article:
‘The stunning display of insurrection was the first time the US Capitol had been overrun since the British attacked and burned the building in August of 1814, during the War of 1812…” “The shocking scene was met with less police force than many of the Black Lives Matter protests that rolled across the country in the wake of George Floyd’s killing at the hands of Minneapolis police officers last year. ‘
‘An afternoon of chaos: The protesters first breached exterior security barriers, and video footage showed protesters gathering and some clashing with police near the Capitol building. …Protesters could be seen pushing against metal fences and police using the fences to push protesters back, while other officers reached over the top to club people trying to cross their lines. Flash bangs could be heard near the steps of the Capitol as smoke filled the air. In some instances officers could be seen deploying pepper spray. Tear gas was deployed, but it’s not clear whether by protesters or police, and people wiped tears from their eyes while coughing. ‘
‘Washington Mayor Muriel Bowser announced a citywide curfew from 6 p.m. ET on Wednesday until 6 a.m. ET Thursday.’
‘Lawmakers began returning to the Capitol after the building was secured and made it clear that they intended to resume their intended business — namely, confirming Biden’s win over Trump by counting the votes in the Electoral College. Proceedings resumed at about 8 p.m. ET with Pence — who never left the Capitol, according to his press secretary — bringing the Senate session back into order.’
‘House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said in a statement earlier Wednesday evening that congressional leadership wanted to continue with the joint session Wednesday night.
“Today, a shameful assault was made on our democracy. It was anointed at the highest level of government. It cannot, however, deter us from our responsibility to validate the election of Joe Biden,” Pelosi wrote.’
‘Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell said on the floor that the “United States Senate will not be intimidated. We will not be kept out of this chamber by thugs, mobs or threats.” He added, “We will certify the winner of the 2020 presidential election.”‘
‘Trump finally called on his supporters to “go home” hours after the riot started, but spent a large amount of time in the one-minute video lamenting and lying about his election loss.
In one stunning line, Trump told the mob to “go home,” but added, “We love you. You are very special.” Trump struck a sympathetic tone to the rioters he himself unleashed saying, “I know your pain, I know you’re hurt. We had an election that was stolen from us. It was a landslide election and everyone knows it. Especially the other side. But you have to go home now. We have to have peace.” However, later on in the evening Trump justified the mob’s actions and praised them. “These are the things and events that happen when a sacred landslide election victory is so unceremoniously & viciously stripped away from great patriots who have been badly & unfairly treated for so long. Go home with love & in peace. Remember this day forever!”‘
Vicki,
What happened yesterday at the capital was really crazy.
I think Trump should be immediately removed as president, today if possible. The problem continues to be his millions of supporters and republicans who want their future votes. I am so glad the democrats won both senate seats in Georgia, and will be holding all the power in Washington. Trump is seriously mentally ill and never should have been president to begin with.
Phil
Phil, I agree. But I noticed that entrenched Repubs-for-Trump like McConnell & his wife, Elaine Chao, Betsy deVos, and Melania’s Chief-of-staff, etc. are alarmed at yesterday’s Riot in DC, which was expressly enticed by Trump. Those women all resigned. Why were they surprised, when he’s been doing the same in only slightly less-sensational ways for years? If they have been so blind, not able to see who he really is, I doubt they have the courage to impeach him now. So many Repubs are just self-righteous cowards, as well as terminably greedy.
A criminally understated question is: How large of a role did methamphetamines play in this insurrection?
https://twitter.com/Cleavon_MD/status/1347405769826684928?s=20
Vicki,
I think Mike Pence should get to be president for a few days.. It could happen if he’d agree on using the 25th amendment to remove Trump. I don’t think he’s ever going to get to be president otherwise, unless Trump dies in the next 12 days.
Phil
Some news I read said that even if he did take over, he would not be ‘President” just ‘Acting-President’ I think. Bush did that with his VP, when he was incapacitated for a surgery.
This morning I got in touch with some very deep sadness. At times my thinking seems to get in the way of my feelings. This very deep sadness was about my sister leaving, and about how badly I needed her around, and loved her. I mostly didn’t have anyone, but sometimes I had her, and that was really important. My father was unhelpful in a lot of ways. I think he exploited me for his own emotional needs and my sister didn’t do that. I certainly needed someone besides him.
I guess my thinking has been, she couldn’t have been so important, and why don’t we relate well as adults, and that has sometimes gotten in the way.
Phil
Phil, that would make me think about writing a letter to tell her those kinds of things, regardless whether she would “get the point” or respond.
Vicki,
It doesn’t have me thinking of writing a letter to my sister, but maybe doing that could help break through long established patterns. Although I connect with these things from the past as part of my healing, I don’t feel hopeful about having any kind of relationship with her. I think she has things the way she wants them; no connection with any family members.
Phil
Renee, I tried multiple times to paste my full response to your excellent second poem. Nothing is working. I don’t know why I can type short posts, but not longer ones here on the blog (including copy/paste).
My response is no big deal anyway since it’s mostly therapy experiences from long ago. It would just be a rendition of a grandpa puffing on his pipe sharing trivial old stories, so I have no problems moving on.
Guru,
why not just post it in a few shorter messages?
Hey Phil, well yeah I could go look up what I put in my file and break it up into pieces for Renee’s perusal. Honestly I’m getting to the point where I don’t care either way because I’m so preoccupied with other things, not to mention a little grieving about my dad on the side as well.
I’ll leave this decision up to Renee. If she still wants to pursue this line of discussion I will happily oblige and try to post those prose pieces, otherwise no hard feelings…I’m really ambivalent.
Ugg, I’m fine either way. Actually, I was just wondering if my second poem was more accurate and, if so, was it the whole poem that resonated with you or some specific lines from it.
Renee, overall poetry seems to capture and convey the free-floating essence of a mood, doesn’t it? Your second poem is much more accurate than the first when you realized mom would have loved me greatly under normal circumstances.
Your second poem could continue to be refined in smaller and smaller ways over time until an upper bound is reached.
It’s been decades since the days I studied any poetry as an undergrad during the days when my literature prof soaked me in reams of Dostoyevsky, so I am not in such good poetry shape particularly with so much else on my mind.
There’s no question you’re good at this hobby, and there’s definitely a time and place for it.
guru,that is something the news-people did not even think of (meth-fueled insurrection). bravo
donald “methie” dump
anyway, i find it amazing that there is a big part of being alive, where it is assumed that Life can be good. what with all the mass extinctions of bacteria, dinosaurs, and what not over the eons…it is amazing that many humans have hope and expect to live well. ah bullshit, temple grandin probably already posed stuff like this. for me, thinking about this stuff could be a way to hide my feelings about death and destruction. but i guess a lot of us are curious as to what it all means…life and death…most beings flee from danger, except maybe the bacteria who got overwhelmed in the earliest days of life on earth. those stupid f’s at the capitol did not flee for some reason. some tried to. always strength in numbers, said the wildebeest as he saw the lion coming towards him.
i have a tiny tiny bit of compassion for those rioters. could have been my sons on meth doing stupid stuff.
Otto, freedom and autonomy, an ‘anything goes’ mentality reminiscent of Jack’s anarchism, has been the attitude I’ve commonly run into with the drug users I know. ‘Freedom’ being equated to ‘no big nanny government’ and naturally this leads to Trumpworld and, by extension, the US Capitol insurrection participants. Need I say more about ‘freedom’ than a shaman running around the capitol with bull’s horns and bare chest painted red, white, and blue?
I’m leaning a bit heavy on stereotyping there, aren’t I?
It is true though that some of the worst-hit US states with the opioid and meth crises are Trump leaning states, so there’s that food for thought as well.
Many Trumpkins seem to appreciate a bold, in-your-face message designed to troll normal civilians and devil may care if people are angry about it (‘fuck your feelings’ was a big mantra for them in 2016). It’s a new sense of power for them, just like those huge pickup trucks with the bold, in-your-face pairs of Trump flags flying in the truck bed that are occasionally seen on the roads.
Even I would have some ‘shits and giggles’ driving around in a new, giant $80,000 Ford F350 with a pair of huge Trump flags dominating the winds at my truck’s back. I would feel like a powerful troll with an in-your-face message, and I almost always vote Democrat.
My favorite commentator on events in the U.S now is Mary Trump, Donald’s psychologist niece. I love the way that she combines political analysis and clinical insight so seamlessly. I love her laser-focused accuracy on where our attention needs to be. I love her no BS policy. And I love her wicked sense of humor. Take a look: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-xKMwZbEBg
That is one cool family (I took the liberty of restoring the image a bit):
Hey Daniel, you seem to enjoy retouching old photographs and you’ve done a nice job with the two I’ve provided, including this one. Would it trample any feelings if I gave a small bit of constructive critique? I noticed my mom and her maternal uncle on the left seem to have a pronounced orange skin in their facial areas when they should be a more natural tone as shown by dad and mom’s paternal uncle on the right.
No big deal, though, otherwise it’s a very good remastering. Thanks for your efforts.
almost feels like the 60’s today, at least for me. some santa ana wind is blowing it in. a ray of hope. or maybe a thread of the vietnam war. just felt like saying that. it is perfectly meaningless. cant go back to those times. got in the car to go get sacks of catfood and peanuts for cats and raccs, cant get no satisfaction was on the radio, and there was that old feeling of hope, and an undertone of doom in the background. which will soon enough today return into an overtone of doom and hopelessness for me. ha. mykid’s wife finally got his panic-stricken wife to join him in their now-home in slo, she is now on lexapro and we will see how this goes. she away from mom now, 4 hours away, late 30’s, maybe the first time of her life. my son sounds strong enough on phone, hopefully my years of depression and stupidity during his childhood will not rear its head in his psyche later on.
i meant, my kid got his panic-stricken wife to join him. he only has the one wife.
this draw lucy thing–the only ad i ever watched to the end. i would get one of these, since i have always wanted to draw political cartoons, but like the electric piano sitting in the closet for years now, i really have no motivation any more to draw, photograph, sing, dance, learn a new language…none of that shit. and…nothing is going to change that. no old feeling(s) felt that would bring a body-busting amount of primal relief is going to change that. no rx of testosterone or new anti-depressant is going to change that. booze and pot might, but that would kill everything around me. what’s the frigging use? my body keeps saying, ‘oh yeah, you gonna die, boss’. what you want written on your urn full of ashes? those fat, stupid cats outside best be learnin’ to eat birds now, so stop feeding them’.
Hurray!
my mother and all the other residents of the nursing home, and half of the staff have recieved their first vaccination!
it went very well, they started preparing at 8.30 am, injecting at 10 and were ready before lunchtime.
nobody got ill, and until now, since the summer they had no infections luckily.
we have more vaccines coming up regularly so the speed of the vaccinations will increase, and I hope to get mine in March.
so that’s good news hopefully, by summer everyone that wants it should be vaccinated and life could normalize unless Corona gives us another nasty surprise.
on monday I will do my first 3 hour shift on the tele helpline, and hopefully all goes well there too.
my cat that used to be sick every day is much better now, so more good news.
still feeling a bit lonely right now, despite having had lunch with nice girlfriend.
I miss the nice warm weather and sunshine!
and more good company and less worries.
tomorrow I really want to participate in the Zoom group, it has been too long already.
also nice to hear Twitter blocked the orange troll, for undefined time, some say forever…
he will keep struggling though and spreading more hate and fear…
M
Hurray!
my mother and all the other residents of the nursing home, and half of the staff have recieved their first vaccination!
it went very well, they started preparing at 8.30 am, injecting at 10 and were ready before lunchtime.
nobody got ill, and until now, since the summer they had no infections luckily.
we have more vaccines coming up regularly so the speed of the vaccinations will increase, and I hope to get mine in March.
so that’s good news hopefully, by summer everyone that wants it should be vaccinated and life could normalize unless Corona gives us another nasty surprise.
on monday I will do my first 3 hour shift on the tele helpline, and hopefully all goes well there too.
my cat that used to be sick every day is much better now, so more good news.
still feeling a bit lonely right now, despite having had lunch with nice girlfriend.
I miss the nice warm weather and sunshine!
and more good company and less worries.
tomorrow I really want to participate in the Zoom group, it has been too long already.
also nice to hear Twitter blocked the orange troll, for undefined time, some say forever…
he will keep struggling though and spreading more hate and fear…
M
BB–ASKED OF ANOTHER group member…BUT YOU GOT ME TOO.
SOMETHING LIKE THIS: “WHAT WAS YOUR FIRST MEMORY OF BEING AFRAID?’
MY HEAD TO ME: “WHICH ONE?”
and then deep tears and throw self to the wood floor, not for a minute or more, but there you go
and the other thing before that…something said about feeling afraid all the time.
cant remember, i dont notice that much, but it comes out as rage.
‘do you miss her?’ another good one.
losing my mom so early, and missing her for so many months (as a baby), i got a good long time to forget her forever. i did not know who that was in the picture that my grandma set on top of our tv, when i was around 11 or so. grandma said little about her.
i should knowwhat john lennon is saying about drwning in a sea of hatred, because i have so much hate in me, but itis not clear to me
the thing that got me so much about john lennon, was the way some of his songs had a progression that feels like the progression of a primal feeling, rising into that click where the feeling clicks. old dirt road, some other, well well well, mother, probably others
what can i say about group? i am afraid to say it. and i will continue to think it.. every group, as far back as i can remember, there are like 5 people dominating the group, and it is essentially their group. they own it. at least this time, i got a feeling and cry out of barry’s question to jeff. not that i feel like it is going to do a bit of good for me. i don’t feel like i am a part of the group, never have. since 1985. the people who have no problem with getting their mouths open piss me off. this i will not say in group. but it feels to me a bit like trump’s narcicism that some people always have to speak and tell everyone how they feel, as if they are the only person on the planet who matters. while i feel as invisible.as i must have, when trying to avert my quick death via uncle or the years-long death via my poor grandma who could not keep her mouth shut even if she had to. at this point i am trying to stay as invisible in group more than ever, and i will continue. we watched a fairly decent movie last night amor something about a family of 3 africans in new york. it did not bring up much feeling, but dad was patient and kind to his wife and daughter who he finally was able to bring to new york after 17 years of trying. but me? hatred and jealousy and definitely scared.
Otto, I am glad you were able to say more here about how you feel about group, even though you will not say it in group. Better out than in.
I have always enjoyed movies with Arnold Schwarzenegger, even though I almost have felt like I “am not supposed to” like him, because of his sometimes crazy views and behaviors. But in spite of his having faded more out of the news lately, I was pleased to see today his speech about the attack and attempted-coup in the Capitol 4 days ago. It brought me to some tears, silly or not. Arnold has just the kind of male personality and attitude that could easily go toe-to-toe with the Trump-bully-in-chief, and knock him on his ass, if he had to, without flinching. That is definitely what makes him appealing to me. However blushingly symbolic a lot of his speech was, I liked it, it felt heartening, and passionate.
https://www.newsandguts.com/video/arnold-schwarzenegger-compares-hill-attackers-to-nazis/?fbclid=IwAR2A6w2JAR2COtthqfYQOkWnw3_rk1lSiznoOi-3oUM5HKEZDUMIOXlNkOQ
Vicki, do you think Arnold uses Grecian formula and Rogaine for his hair? His hair looks suspiciously youthful for a 74 year-old, especially considering how aged his facial hair appears.
I hope you don’t think I’m trying to knock down almighty Arnold. I’m sure he has a lot of heroic qualities and has had an extraordinary life. His hair struck me as really unusual for his age.
Maybe Austrians never have gray hair or go bald, I don’t know.
Thanks, Vicki. What a guy, that Arnold. I’m glad he spoke up. He should know a thing or two about bad leaders over his former country and those who enabled them. His speech was heartening for me also.
Sylvia & Vicki, I realize I didn’t quite go along with the feeling flow of Arnold’s video when I questioned his hair. Let me explain why?
As you may recall, I grew up reading tons of gossip tabloid trash rags (Natl. Enquirer, etc.) so I still have a burning scar in my brain from 2011 when the utterly HUMONGOUS story of Arnold having a love child with his maid caused immense pain to Maria Shriver and her kids, leading to a divorce. I was just as shocked as Ms. Shriver was and never saw Arnold the same way ever again myself.
That incident from a decade ago (with lifelong consequences for multiple people) still had an influence on my deciding to pick away at Arnold a bit. Arnold’s kids with Maria Shriver refuse to associate with their newly discovered half-brother, a sign of how painful this ordeal was for them.
(Yes I was a bit rushed writing that and it needs a bit of cleanup, but the core message still stands.)
No worries, we won’t tell Arnold you made fun of his hair dye.
Sylvia, my Beta Boy jealousy was slightly triggered when you said ‘what a guy’ about Arnold. No question Arnold has had many many fearlessly fantastic adventures and accomplishments in life I hadn’t come remotely close to achieving, yet along with the spectacularly good facets can reside the spectacularly bad facets…hence, an all around ‘spectacular’ person so to speak.
I think in the therapeutic process we learn to accept our limitations. There will always be those who have gotten ahead because they are stronger from birth or a good childhood or had certain advantages. But I try to appreciate people for their accomplishments even if I don’t have their success. I can only do what I can do. I count my achievements a success because I have gained such an appreciation for life I never had before having access to my old feelings.
From what I’ve read about beta and alpha males on some of the websites I do not like it. It more or less denigrates the boyhood in men, the feeling child. No one is alpha or beta, they are just people.
Sylvia, your point is taken and I will try not to be a beta person anymore. I also found it of some interest that you and Vicki were talking about hidden families and some days later went on to the Schwarzenegger video. Since Arnold’s big scandal was also a hidden family, do you think there may have been an unconscious gravitation towards the Arnold clip with the ‘hidden family’ concept called upon from the deep recesses of memory based on the topic of recent discussion between you and Vicki?
Artificial intelligence programs use general topic concepts like this to perform disparate actions which don’t seem related to one another until more deeply researched for a hidden common thread.
I am assuming you and Vicki were both made aware of news of Arnold’s dalliance from 2011, and thus able to commit that info to the deep recesses of memory for unconscious retrieval many years later.
Ha, Sylvia, no chip implanted! I am thoroughly aware of Arnold’s famous imperfections, pecadillos, and traumas to his family. And in spite of her likely limitations of vision, I suspect Maria has done a good job helping her kids deal with those problems — she does not seem an idiot mom. I suspect Arnold himself has enough integrity left to have turned around some of his stupidity, and helped his children as well. They may never feel kindly toward their half-sibling, or that may change. Regardless, I have always liked some things about Arnold, I have never “hated” him, and I would love to see him kick Trump’s ass from here to Christmas — that is my focus.
Arnold had meaningful things to say about his father and neighbors’ passive collusion with Nazis in WW-II, and how that rotted them inside all their lives, as they were alcoholic and screamed and beat their families. I saw videos last week of rioters wearing “Camp Auschwitz” t-shirts, and was stunned when I heard that some had shirts with “6MWE”, meaning “6 Million Wasn’t Enough” (i.e., Jews killed), a level of modern secretive Nazi-worship I didn’t know existed.
You would have to ask Vicki as to whether she subconsciously gravitated toward a hidden- family-seeking pattern. I just thought it was a timely post of Arnold’s that we all needed to hear in support for sanity among the Republicans.
Arnold will forever be known as causing chaos in his own family, and it may be at the back of everyone’s mind when they see him talk. I hope they have all been helped with family counseling, as I read that his kids said they had attended. But the issue at hand was more of the state of the country. There was no A I involved here, just a coincidence of synchronization from the universe, that is unless Vicki has been implanted with some kind of chip or we are in the matrix–hah.
Why should we feel, as in personal relationship, anything for public persona we know nothing about. Having said that, my opinion of John Lennon diminished after lerning how he ditched his son Julian and his Mom to a life of financial struggle while he lived in opulence. As a musician I interacted with professionals who penned and performed some very emotional material. I was dismayed when I observed that their, ” feeling,” messages were about personality characteristics they totally lacked. They were abusive, negligent, petulant, condescending, self centred, and capable of hating forever colleagues and family they deemed had wronged them. Amazing what the public overlooks when someone who can jump higher, skate faster, sing their way to financial wealth is involved.
Thanks Sylvia. Arnold was clear about the guilt that followed his father and neighbors in Austria, all their lives. I just read an account by a black Capitol policeman, with stunning info of what he saw and who he encountered, and how he was treated. The page is ugly with ads, but the story is very good.
https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/emmanuelfelton/black-capitol-police-racism-mob?fbclid=IwAR346-NzKWrXk047VYUFntriQezsuS0BSkJxMx5Bs7ne9ZnN4EN7GFiV4f4
Another story told of a freshman Trump-loving Congresswoman from Colorado, who had wanted to bring a gun with her into the session on Wed. (was not allowed), who was found to have tweeted info about Pelosi’s whereabouts during the Coup-attempt, to her followers.
FAKE NEWS: “Rattled by the violent insurrection and images of MAGA-loyalists hunting for them in the Capitol’s hallways, House Democrats moved quickly toward a second impeachment”.
Yeah, Adolf—oops i mean Dumbtruck Trump and his brown-shirts are blameless. Made-up news. Make sure you watch Fox News for the real story. But the real story is the 4 years of Trump taking a butcher knife and forever dividing us as a people. Republicans had already been doing that for years, but he was the ultimate influencer. How I feel about him and his crowd–if you heard the anger in group yesterday, multiply it by a zillion. if you saw the anger of the mob on tv, mine makes their anger look like a kid asking his loving mom for a cookie. not to mention my grocery delivery was cancelled yesterday, probably because the poor guy called out sick with covid. now my high-risk old decrepit white-privilege ass is eating stale biscuits and dryed-out chicken. more fake news–people and their kids are starving because of 49 percent of this country putting asshole utterly incompetent trump into office. and they still love him and his bucking “accomplishments”. can’t say what future i would like to give him, because kgb is probably reading this as i speak.
I don’t think criminal, sadistic, psychopath, abomination,TRUMP was the surgeon, just the opportunistic benefactor of what has been hundreds of years in play. The numbskull politicians are presented by the Party, and elected by millions of voters. What does that say about the voters, and the elected who support such criminal baffoons ? I’m too old to continue letting the gabage rattle around my brain. 50 years ago my self talk was change for the better can be motivated…. FOOL was I. The mentally disturbed self interested are in power. The rest gratefully settle for the crumbs from BOSS HOGG’s table. Even the term racism is a tool to separate the lower castes to promote in squabbling, the SQIRREL diversion, to veil the classism created by, and the contempt that the uberrich have for we underlings. But what happens when the underlings seize the agenda ? I cheered when Poland emerged, only to witness similar personalities arise from the ,
” underling class,” to stardom and become just as self anointed, oppressive, and corrupt. Anyone know the location of the,
” START AGAIN,” button ?
In the words of my friend Ray, in the hallowed basement corridor of the old PI, ” We’re fucked and don’t know it.” I thought he was jaded….
thanks vicki. i felt heard because of your comment. i can’t remember how good a governor arnold was, but i loved it when he became the “good” terminator. funny how action movies can arouse emotions and feelings. we watched an action movie with “THE ROCK” LAST WEEKEND”, IT WAS OK, BUT DID NOT AROUSE ME THAT MUCH. DIE HARDS BRUCE WILLIS–MORE AROUSAL. I LOVE THE STRONG MAN IMAGE. NOT THE FRUMP STRONGMAN–HE IS A SNIVELING WEAK COWARD. WONDER WOMAN–CAN’T REMEMBER IF I GOT AROUSED. MAYBE A LITTLE AT THE BATTLE ON AMAZON ISLAND AGAINST THE FRIGGING NAZIS. I WOULD USE STRONGER LANGUAGE BUT I HAVE TO BE KIND TO MY 1/4 GERMAN SELF. STUPID PLOT, STUPID WRITING. BUT A GOOD “SCRIPT PITCH MOCK” ON YOUTUBE.
I first saw then newly immigrated Arnold on the Merv Griffin show, paraded on Zsa Zsa Gabor’s diamond studded leash. From my reading he was more effective and less destructive to the Republic than Ronnie Reagan. My best friend always cautioned about people who can address an audience with flawless delivery…. even brainless Trump does that and no one throws a shoe at him…
Otto,
I also feel too much of group time sometimes goes to the same people.
of course they can have serious stuff they are entitled to talk about, but it starts getting to me when after having had plenty of time they start taking more and more and more.
also I felt bad about yesterday’s group, specially when voices started getting raised, and I also ended up screaming in frustration to someone screaming for feeling not being listened to while refusing to listen to anyone else at the same time.
it was so frustrating, and it felt good at times the underlying feeling got adressed, but then again it deteriorated and got a lot of adrenaline flowing.
agression triggers more agression, until it can become so destructive.
I feeel bad for noticing i get sucked in to the point of ending up screaming as well.
still trying to find what exactly triggers me most, it seems to have to do with someone trying to overpower me, or bully me, or invade my mental territory in an agressive way, and partly it feels good to stand up for myself but partly I feel bad for ending up with the same behviour as the initial trigger to which I reacted.
I wanted to hear about other people in group, and even felt like mentioning my starting volunteer work of today, but as that was no big dramatic feeling and so much stuff went on that either too k a lot of time or in other cases was really much more important, I did not say anything about myself.
but I am glad this group feels like an exception, or hopefully it will be an exception, it did not leave a good feeling of having been constructive, but hopefully it was for some anyway.
too much anger going around and around and around…
M
I feel that what triggers me most, scares and frustrates me is when people seem beyond reach of rational interactions, like Trump adepts or members of a sect, not open to any arguments or facts but their own convictions.
all the rest gets swiped off the table as lies or fake news or conspiracies.
all the court cases and judges decisions don’t seem to mean anything, as if even the republican judges would form part of this huge conspiracy.
that is beyond irrational, it is dangerously mindless parroting of a mentally disturbed leader, and a possible root of a lot of violence, as the past has shown us.
within limits, I don’t mind a controlled censorship of overt lies and hate messages.
facts are facts, and of course I would not want a totalitarian state with state censorship, but a prohibition of hate messages, incitation to violence and intentional use of false so called facts as a manipulative tool should be controlled, with the controllers also being vigilantly watched.
Margaret,
I think Trumps claim of election fraud defies any logic. He has such a hold over his supporters, that many of them believe whatever he says. Republicans actually did quite well overall in the election. Was that because of fraud, or was Trump the only victim?
He’s a demagogue: “a political leader who seeks support by appealing to the desires and prejudices of ordinary people rather than by using rational argument”.
What about voter suppression, which has been going on forever, but not corrected? Of course, he was screaming fraud even before the election. All the examinations of the issue found no, or very rare cases of irregularities after the election, and those were often investigations by republican officials in Georgia, Arizona, and other places. I’m glad that some people have shown integrity, otherwise Trump might have stolen the election, and that would be the end of our democracy. I think we’re still at risk, But I still don’t think it’s such a good topic for group, at least not for me, anyway, no matter how much attention I’m giving it on a daily basis.
Phil
Trump messed it up for his party last week in Georgia, causing them to lose the senate, which to me was great news. It just shows how he doesn’t care about anyone but himself.
He keeps screaming fraud, that’s why a lot of voters in Georgia probably decided that voting was a waste of time.
Phil
I FEEL SO ALIVE, FOR A WHILE THIS MORNING. I AM SURE THAT NASTY FEELING WILL DEPART SOON ENOUGH. I FEEL LIKE A GOOD PERSON, EVEN THOUGH I AM SHIT. I FEEL LIKE I AM DOING A GOOD JOB AT WORK, EVEN THOUGH I AM ONLY A TINY BIT LESS MEDIOCRE THAN TRUMP. I AM AROUSED BY THOUGHTS OF A WOMAN AT MY JOB WHO NEEDED MY HELP THIS MORN (REMOTE, WE ARE BOTH DIALED IN REMOTELY). MY LAST ENCOUNTER WITH HER WAS YEARS AGO, WHEN SHE HELPED ME MOVE HER DESK AWAY FROM THE WALL SO I COULD SEE THE NETWORK JACK ON THE WALL, AND THEN SHE PUSHED IT BACK IN. EXPOSING THE SKIN OF HER YOUNG BEAUTIFUL BACK IN THE PROCESS. THIS MAKES ME SO SAD RIGHT NOW. SHE WAS MY MOM-SURROGATE–HELPING ME. I NEED A LOT OF HELP. I NEEDED SO MUCH HELP WHEN I WAS TORN FROM MY MOM SO YOUNG. FOR ANY OF THE HICK TERRORIST AHOLES WHO SAY BLUMP ACCOMPLISHED SO MUCH, YES HE DID, HE ACCOMPLISHED TEARING BABIES AWAY FROM THEIR MOMS AND PUTTING THEM IN CONTRACT HOMES WHERE THE KEEPERS WERE NOT SUPPOSED TO TOUCH THEM. THOSE KIDS ARE STILL NOT BACK WITH THEIR PARENTS. UGLYUMP PEOPLE WOULD NOT GIVE CONTACT INFO TO ACLU TO RE-UNITE, EVEN THOUGH JUDGE SAID DO IT. FOR THIS NAZIUMP AND HIS BROWNSHIRTS SHOULD ROT IN HELL.
I did my first 3 hour shift on the phone helpline as a volunteer.
my fellow volunteers were very helpful to assist me with the installation special phone, headset, desktop connection, and I added a paper notebook and a recorder .
it was very intense, one call after another, with just a few minutes breaks.
one lady and her young daughter were in a very difficult legal situation, too personal and complicated and private to give details about, a long call, but it was nice the lady said in the end she felt better even while i had no practical help to offer, just for feeling understood.
then I got two different kinds of suicide calls, one being close to deciding to make the step, but still managing with my help to keep working at her serious issues, and one who was passed through from the suicide helpline which was full, with a person already having taken various sleeping tablets.
a long call as well, but in the end she promised me to call her former doctor who was retired now.
no idea if she really did, but I did all I could so feel ok about that.
it was exhausting but also feels so useful for these people calling.
we are luckily a well supported group of volunteers, the helpline exists since 1965 and is well organized and equipped, gives a good ‘schooling’, and offers all support necessary.
all the calls are being answered by volunteers, the staff only takes care of the logistics and backup.
so there is a lot of companionship and solidarity between the volunteers, there are 5 separate rooms to answer phone calls at a time, and the number of working volunteers varies with the time of day or night, but it is very busy these days.
there is also a chat line provided but that is not my thing.
so well, first time was very intense but ok, a combination of working out the practicals for me, and dealing with the intensity of real people calling needing some kind of support.
M
Margaret, Wow, I think that’s so great you’re doing that. It sounds very intense, but must feel very satisfying to be helping people like that.
Phil
I imagine it must feel good to help people, Margaret, though maybe stressful.
Margaret, Wow, I think that’s so great you’re doing that. It sounds very intense, but must feel very satisfying to be helping people like that.
Phil
Phil and Larry,
yes, the volunteer work feels useful.
it takes a lot of energy but it also gives satisfaction.
and the fellow volunteers give it a nice atmosphere of mutual support, and a counterweight of lightness if needed against all the problems and sorrow of the callers.
I think the first time was so exhausting due to to the extra pressure of having to deal with the technical stuff for the first time.
it was probably also the cause of my migraine yesterday, which usually comes up the day after a stressful event.
but now it does not feel as scary anymore as I have figured out how to handle the equipment and calls while taking notes and if necessary recording my side of the conversation as well.
I really look forward to getting to know more volunteers as we are many.
today the blog has been silent, my phone as well and no text messages either, which feels too empty to my taste.
tomorrow visit to mom.
M
my friend in 7th or 8th grade turned me onto switched on bach. but probably my mom played bach on piano or record player. i used to ride my bike downtown to the library where they has a sizable record collection. i would listen to classical records in my lonewly garage bedroom. i am glad i found this version. very clear and just the right everything. make me cry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KialZHRdD7A Jesu, Joy of Man’s Desiring – Bach (Cello-Guitar Duo)
(Just self-therapy writing, not writing to impress anyone. My ramshackle wordsmithing workshop.)
I’m still missing my dad to no end and I wish he was back here. Absolutely an unsung hero and I keep pounding myself over the head wishing I could have done more for him when that really means nothing anymore. He was an innocent gentle genius, not soft-spoken, just a sweet Charlie Brown demeanor who faced too many dark shadows in life. I’m always going to be haunted by the thoughts along the lines of wishing I could have done more for him and feeling terrible that I didn’t or couldn’t.
If he was here and healthy, knowing all this he would say, “Forget about it, it’s over. It doesn’t matter now except to yourself and only yourself. Just carry on and look to the future. There’s nothing more to see here.”
I had similar feelings about my mother, who died 9 years ago today. As I was standing weeping next to her body at the hospital at the dead of night, I kept saying “I’m sorry”. She was unconscious for last week of her life, but I was feeling at once sorry for not being enough with her during her final days, and in general for not being as good as a son for her as I could have or should have been. Those feelings lasted several months and still surface from time to time.
I think many people have similar feelings. In fact many more I spoke to about their bereavement felt guilty about not doing more for the deceased before they died, than people who were at peace about themselves regarding the dead loved one. It’s as if guilt is part and parcel of grief.
Daniel, well that’s an interesting story about your mother and thanks for sharing it. Dad was only unconscious for about a day before death. It felt so terrible seeing that, too. I was lucky enough to have my dad’s final phrase directly said to me, “No problem.” He said this in response to my concern about not immediately catching a joke he made a couple days earlier.
“Your move.” and “No problem.” were really his last two phrases to me. Do you remember any last words your mother said to you?
By the way, Daniel, I have to admit I was disappointed to hear you don’t believe in any sort of hereafter. I won’t try to change your mind, though. It’s commonplace around here and I’ve gotten used to it.
By the time my mom got the the hospital (a heart attack) she was already quite handicapped for several years. An unknown number of mini-stroked racked havoc in her brain and she was hardly speaking. She did keep on recognizing us but there weren’t anymore real conversations. A word here, a word there, and that’s it. I sort of lost her some years before she passed away and so was apparently ready, but still felt shocked and deeply grieved when she eventually died. Unfortunately I don’t remember her last words to me. At the hospital I did ask her if she’s afraid and she nodded Yes. Perhaps that was the last communication with her, other than holding her hand.
As for the hereafter, it’s true my rational inclination pulls me away from it, but the real truth is I simply have no idea.
Daniel, I’m sorry to hear that your mother experienced such a long decline before passing away. I know how that can add lots of stress along the way, a slow burning stress.
I can definitely understand if you felt you needed to keep some distance from her during the last few years of her life. Watching my dad’s decline in just three short months was agonizing all its own. We want to remember our parents as being a certain way and terminal sickness completely defies our favorite imagery of them.
I’m starting to think the luckiest way to die (so to speak) is simply going to bed as an old person and not waking up. Clean, neat, and simple with the only drawback being a total surprise if there were no marked signs of decline beforehand.
Thanks, Guru. I guess most would like to go exactly the way you describe – peacefully in bed while sleeping. But it did remind me of something the great pediatrician and psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott wrote in personal prayer of his: “May I be alive when I die”, which of course can be interpreted in more ways than one.
Sorry about the orange tint your mom and her dad got in my restored version of the image. It looks fine on my monitor, so maybe it’s a calibration issue in mine or yours. By the way, both your parents and grandparents look lovely.
Daniel, those two old guys in the front of that photo were my mom’s uncles (grandparents’ siblings) whom I likely only met once or twice as a child. I’ve never shown pictures of my actual grandparents.
Given our recent discussion about death & whether or not it’s eternal oblivion, I will repost this link to the blog which I have done several times in the past: http://www.naturalism.org/philosophy/death/death-nothingness-and-subjectivity
(First sentence reads: “This paper critiques the widespread secular misunderstanding of death as a plunge into oblivion.”)
Even if the philosophical argument above doesn’t hold water, there’s still the matter of Nick Bostrom’s simulation theory (https://www.simulation-argument.com/) which Elon Musk discussed in a link I posted many months ago somewhere.
There’s no question that death sucks though, as Otto said. I’d rather cling to this Earth for as long as I can
He never went to any sort of therapy and always gave a slight smirk when Janov was mentioned, “Oh come on, please don’t pull that psychology on me? Please?”
He was never the type to muddle around feeling sorry for himself.
My mum said « am I dying? ». and shocked, I said « no! » I didn’t want to believe she was dying. I felt guilt for a long time after, realising I should have acknowledged her own sense of imminent death. I had then to leave her hospital room so that my Dad could see her. Then she was due for a morphine shot, and I heard her ask the nurse « is my daughter coming back? » She died that night. So sad.
Jo, I know it’s been ten days since you wrote this…sorry for the delay, but upon re-reading this I had to tell you I would have been completely crushed with guilt and self-recrimination for years and years if my dad had asked, “Is my son coming back?” and I never did until his death.
I’m sorry you had to go through the knowledge of that.
The guilt and sorrow are still semi-unbearable for me because I loved him so much.
With mom long, long gone it was like losing my last kidney.
Thanks for that Ug, aand although its a sad memory I’m not consumed by it,..I’m sorry you still feel semi unbearable guilt and sorrow over your bear(🐻)of a dad
Guru,
have you tried saying the ‘sorry’ out loud to your dad? it did help me in the past to get into a feeling that helped me .
M
Margaret, it’s a somewhat incredible coincidence you suggested this. One time I was in group with Barry and he asked me to say, “Sorry, dad” or “I’m sorry, dad’. Yes, that really made me hurt and cry a lot right there in group. It was too much for me to handle and I had to shut it down to work on other things. Yes, yes yes I know I know Janov’s words ring immortal in my marvelous little head, “For the suffering neurotic who find therapy to be too difficult or overwhelming, I can only say the hardest thing is to not be yourself.”
Jo,
so very sad…
M
Since my father passed away thirty years ago, I have had a lot of guilty feelings about not treating him right. However, now I’ve started to connect more with memories which explain that. There were some good reasons why I wasn’t treating him so well.
Phil
news of the world. another good tom hanks movie. another orphan movie. life, death, good people, bad people, good times, bad times. leaves me in a feeling state. cant say much more about it. we all die. what a f’ing pain in the ass that is. for those of us who go, and for those of us who stay behind.
That looks like a good movie, Otto. Another good movie is “Marilyn Hotchkiss’ Ballroom Dancing and Charm School.” I’m not sure if it has been mentioned here before. A bakery owner driving his delivery truck comes upon an accident and tries to keep the injured man talking and conscious. And so, the badly hurt driver played by John Goodman begins reflecting upon his childhood. The bakery owner, played by Robert Carlyle, (“The Full Monty) with the urging of Goodman, shares some of his own troubles. Lots of emotions in this one.
thx sylvia
i hate to be an ass, but the hardest thing for me IS to be myself, or in other words, the easiest thing for me is to NOT be myself.
Ha, what a relief!
I solved a problem i suddenly had again during yesterday’s group, my audio system did not transfer the sound into my earphone.
it really bugged me, as one more problem, like the last drop filling the bucket threatening to make it flow over.
and this morning on the news they said two primary schools had to be shut and all kids and their families and teachers put into immediate quarantine as the British variation of Corona had been found.
all so depressing and overwhelming bit by bit.
so i attacked the laptop issue immediately this morning, even before getting dressed, by doing a complete restart of the system, and hurray hurray hurray, plugging in the earphone, and hurray hurray, the sound was passed through…!
with my screen reader this is important, especially in Zoom groups and sometimes during my volunteer work.
so one relief and one thing to be pleased about about myself.
yesterday I tried many times various sets of earphones, in vain, so well, little things make a big impact, now for the better again…
M
That’s great Margaret with your earphones — was that the (I think) Flemish audio we kept hearing in group whenever you were about to speak? How annoying! Good for you. That new variety of Covid has arrived here too — last week they were speculating about “keeping it out” but I immediately thought it’s likely already here and spreading, and now they agree. I remember over a year ago, in Dec.2019 “authorities” were speculating about stoppng it from coming here from Wuhan, and I thought Oh that’s not going to work, it’s likely already a problem here, I thought they were likely delusional. I find it incredible how illogical “they” often are. As if “hope” alone might make it come true.
I’m feeling messed up this morning. I couldn’t go to group yesterday, that would have helped. It’s because of new stuff I’m connecting with about my father, which I don’t want to put in writing here. The memories aren’t new, but the feelings have been all bottled up until now.
Phil
Good luck with that Phil. There will likely be distractions this week too, thru Wednesday! Sometimes I think I’m paranoid, but then I read discussions amongst friends and acquantainces on FB, whose fears seem a few levels beyond mine. I imagined they would be just out partying as usual, but no — the riot in DC has got them all fired up now worrying, when “nomally” for months they have seemingly avoided all the news. They live in a rural area, so maybe that has been the difference.
I hate group. i hate sessions. there’s not much else for me then, is there? repurcussions maybe. i have weeds to whack before my backyard burns up and sets the whole neighborhood on fire. no holiday rest here. i not doing her dishes any more. so sorry lady, i dont use fucking dishes. we never learned how to work with each other and never will. if i outlive you, i will be an old lonely man, all relatives dead, at least ones from childhood. sitting in a decrepit dirty apartment with no pets and no will to live, but afraid to die. how can my life appear so bleak when there is gorgeous sun outside? fuck the sun. sun god will be coming for my ass shortly. bills to pay. boxes of shit all over the place. another jury notice, so i can help send black kids to jail? hey, this is 1 billionth of the anguish i feel. and i keep having to hold it in.
Hey, I hate those jury notices too. When you are seventy and if the co-vid is still active, you won’t have to do jury duty. Something to look forward to, Otto–hah. Be safe, Otto, and don’t forget to wear your mask.
S
I have managed to never have to serve on a jury, although I did have to appear and sit in a waiting room all day for a week, until they let me go. What a shag! Twice I’ve just had to phone in every day until they let me off. But I remember Dennis went, and found it fascinating, he liked it. But as a law-teacher, it probably made more sense to him.
My own outbursts for me, no one else. Whacked a couple of weeds with the piece of shit weedwhacker advertised on tv. Cut some dried palm fronds off rapidly growing palm trees and pine tree baby. Baby of the 100’ tall one they took out last year or year before. Now we hear and smell the 405. Babs want me to help her write report cards since her boss told her how can you not write with a masters degree. Cold. Barb never knew how to write. Her strength is person to person with moms dads kids teaching. Cleaned out weird black stuff from shower so bee can take her shower. Finally got the broken plumbing drain water diverted so it does not go near neighbor’s window and fence. Maybe this will stop it from eating our house’s foundation. Flows freer out of shower and bath tub but still stinks. Toilet must be on a separate system, no problem with shit exit to city pipes. Don’t want tell lady landlady to send plumber again. she was mad the last time. Don’t want to lose the house and live in the fucking desert because housing is costly in l.a. Don’t want her plumber who did not do a thorough job last time, since this time we probably catch covid.
Our son moving back from san luis Obispo after a few weeks so wife can be near her mother. Now has to move almost entire houseful of furniture back and quit his new job up there. I hope his wife asks her rich aunt for money to move like she said she would. I need my money for barb’s teeth and other incidentals. Vets. I hope kid can get old job back in l.a. when schools re-open. I hope the 2 of them learn, like all the Hispanics do, it is better to cram into an apartment in l.a. than live with stinking republican hicks. He should have learned when we dragged him and his brother off to lake arrowhead stupidly, to save his stupid sad brother from drugs, which it didn’t. Stop squawking you fucking blue jays. Yes my cats are hunting but I gave you peanuts in safe place. Kid needs to grow balls next time ball-buster wife tells him what to do. But resist urge to go asbergerwild. I wont mention the moon sign his over-powering wife is, because I have spent decades trying to stay sane living with that sign. Some people of that sign are not looney and harness their energy appropriately. I fought like cats and dogs with b for decades and then she stopped for some reason a few years ago. Amazing what I can get done without the poor dead dog dying for months or years .Quick stop yesterday at secret beverly glen park to say fuck you again to sophie for dying on me. Drive to santa monica with windows up. Like summer there. More people out than summer. Too covidy to get out of car at secluded parkway in palasades say good bye again and fuck you to sophie. Old dead neighbor’s white cat getting older perched on old dirty upright back-breaker mattress, staring out window in the sun. he stole that perch from the other cat. He’s the one we took in from old dead neighbor.…and I expect he will die soon enough since he now old. Old neighbor lady barb talked to a lot, down the street , had a stroke and now got covid in rehab place. My body saying to me, your guts are turning to mush, short life and a merry one. barb’s monster cat, that she babies and loves fiercely and sweet talks to like a mother cat, is a joy, and calming down, not attacking other cats so much, after a year or so of being with us and us reassuring her that she is not being attacked by whatever attacked her before we got her. Sookie black turkish cat, I had to teach her texas manners to stand up to monster cat lily, that seemed to work out, she stands her ground and lily walks by her now without hissing and attacking her. Neighbor’s dog barks sometime to get into their house or because cold or lonely. This dog who loved being with deaf latin adult kid, running behind him on his bike with no leash on this big 45 mph street down the block where half the cars in the valley whiz by every day. Deaf kid cant hear the bark, why I am sad now typing this. I cant help the dog. Want to call his young brother to say we will take the dog if they cant handle it. Those folks have had dogs disappear during out 12 years back here from Tucson, so they don’t think about animals like us animal-people. I am crying because this is my life and the mom who could not be with me for 68 years after I learned to talk, she cant hear me, having died 10 months into my life. nor would her anguished mother, who lost her daughter to polio and her husband to heart attack, listen to anything I had to say. Also now dead. I need to call my poor crippled brother who likewise never listened to me too much and abandoned me like the rest. I was crying because this is my fucking life, and like somebody else yesterday, I don’t exactly share it fully with my spouse. Hammered with abuse if I opened my mouth when with I stayed with my mean texan uncle–fucking breed of devil spawn are Texans, worse than the apaches that they slaughtered , let those dicks secede, give them back to fucking mexico. I only stayed with bad uncle for 8 months as mom was dying and then for some school vacations. He killed animals in front of me and threatened to kill me if I did not eat them. Small wonder I bury my feelings withe meat and potatoes and say zilch in group OR sessions. 10 months of similar intensity of abuse from housemother in military school, where her anger, stored in my guts forever after, would keep me apart from normal boy-girl relations until I met barb. And then that meeting did not exactly turn out to be a normal boy-girl thing. I let my dear sweet wife lead the us down the path to ruin. We couldn’t have gone there without my intense stupidity and drunkenness. I let her take me away from institute and later on from Rolland. And then do sessions with barry every 2 weeks with her instead of taking time for myself. Whoever said yesterday, grow some balls, in group, or something like that, to the guy who hides shit from somebody, great sentiment. Too late for me, I say it by hating bobo. Trying to get over it. I tell rachel maddow all the time to tell pelosi to grow some balls, hang by non-lethal means those fucking repubs. Well I guess some violence against weeds and branches brought some of my shit out. But what the fuck is this fucking summer heat in winter shit? Yes I am nothing if not shit, the lowest kind of shit, myself.
Otto, I don’t know if it’s of any help, but as I have been changing the plumbing under my kitchen sink to remove the garbage disposal, and looking up on you tube for tips, they say that disposals can clog up your pipes with food particles. Also another problem could be tree roots invading your pipes that may go through your yard. But I guess you would see water at the spot for that. Good luck.
getting moved by watching news. that prick is almost gone. i hope.
Vicki,
an hour after my feeling of relief about the audio of the laptop again doing its thing, another problem presented itself.
there have been works going on my street for several weeks now, and yesterday, while a shopping help was here, suddenly the power broke off.
wen she left she addressed the guys working in the street and they told her they had accidentally cut a power line, and thought it would probably be solved in an hour.
but they weren’t really sure about it.
it was scary, as suddenly I had no heating anymore, while it was just above freezing outside, no light, radio, tv, no cooking possible or microwave, no boiling water for tea, and worst of all, my communication devices like laptop and iPhone would only last as long as their batteries would provide power.
no Wi-Fi either, so had to put the phone on the general system, and on energy saving.
it was getting cold in the apartment fast, and after some searching I found a lamp with a turning handle for if the current would still be off in the evening.
also I realized myself my audio books device would only have power as well for half an hour without the general current as its battery is bad.
so the picture was a dark cold apartment, me under the covers, and nothing at all to make me feel better or distract me, no hot drink, no radio or tv, no audio books, and soon no cellphone, which contains all my contact phone numbers etc.
I checked a few numbers to remember then, in case, as my landline still works during a power breakdown, luckily enough.
so I could still call a friend, or my brother or the information line of the phone company for other numbers in case.
at some point of trying to think of and deal with all eventualities,, I remembered my sister has a portable battery to recharge a cellphone.
I contacted her while my cellphone still worked and asked her to go get one of those for me, when she could, she called it a power bank.
it needs to be one with the proper plug in entrance for an iPhone.
it is startling to be confronted with how it is when there is no electricity anymore, literally nothing works anymore, not the doorbell either, except thanks heaven, my landline.
it felt, in combination with the Corona virus, the more contagious variations are slowly invading our country as well, like some post apocalyptic scene , not fun at all, cold and scary.
so after two hours when the radio suddenly started playing again, it was a tremendous relief!!
I immediately checked if my heating system automatically restarted itself, and again big hurray, it had done so!!!
my sister will still get me one of those power banks, she says she can recharge her smartphone about 4 times without having to reload the power bank.
so once more, I had had a problem, more scary, but felt huge relief after it had been solved.
now the main worry remaining is Corona, we are dangling here on the verge of a third wave, while vaccinations are gradually starting.
it feels like a race between looming danger and the vaccinations giving increased safety.
it is getting at me, and at everyone I know, the bucket being so full little drops have a big impact.
so take good care, and be well,
M
That’s awful, Margaret — I do know how that feels, as the Power company let me know they would be doing maintenance one day a month ago, but anytime between 9 am and 5 pm, no idea when exactly. So I charged up my phone the night before, started work in the morning, then the power cut off just after 10 am, when I was 10 min. into one work meeting, and didn’t come back until over two hours later, after I had missed another meeting at work, where I was honored for my work. A speech was made about me (and others) to the whole staff (about 100 people), and I missed the whole thing while the power was out. At least it wasn’t dark. Your situation would have been worse, for sure.
They are starting to vaccinate people over 65 yrs. here, but don’t have nearly enough vaccine to fill the need, and not enough available appointments for it either, so I will not rush to compete, or wait in a long line of cars, or other nonsense. “Since March, nearly 100,000 L.A. County residents ages 65 or older have been infected with the coronavirus, and more than 30,000 of them were hospitalized. Of the 14,000 people who have died from COVID-19 in L.A. County, almost 10,000 were age 65 or older” Over 70% of those who die from Covid are over 65 yrs. old, and likely one-third of those hospitalized.
My job is really heavy at present. I’ve had to work 12 hrs. over (beyond 40 hrs). each of the past two weeks, and likely this coming week will be similar. It’s insane. And on salary, no overtime pay.
Good luck, and take care.
I just saw Biden getting sworn in. It was moving, now we have a real president! Who I think actually cares about people.
Phil
Phil,
I have been watching too, and it is still on while I write, and I was moved several times, listening to some of the speeches, and to lady Gaga and Jennifer Lopez singing.
now Joe Biden is giving his speech, and Phil, somehow he often reminds me of you.
it is something in the way he talks, and his sincerity and integrity and straightforwardness.
very moving indeed, and giving some kind of hope in these gloomy scary days…
M
Margaret,
You say Biden often reminds you of me? In that case he’ll be needing a lot of therapy, I’m afraid.
But I think he’ll be a good president; he has so much experience. I think he’s a good choice.
Phil
I know who I am, but do you know who you are?
Margaret,
You say Biden often reminds you of me? In that case he’ll be needing a lot of therapy, I’m afraid.
But I think he’ll be a good president; he has so much experience. I think he’s a good choice.
Phil
Goodbye sister disco.
Waving goodbye is mostly all he can do, with his Twitter account gone he’s been effectively castrated.
News ratings will deflate like a paper bag now that the exciting villain is gone.
People will feel emptier again with no mutually agreed-upon pinata to whack with a stick.
Media outlets will milk Trump’s post-presidency with all its legal and debt troubles for every ounce its worth, perhaps even giving it more air time than Biden the Boring. People want excitement, stimulation.
I think there’s plenty of room for more books about Trump and his presidency. Good business opportunities with that.
Ugg. why such negative predictions? As for your comment that “people want excitement and stimulation”, I’m not sure which people you are talking about. After 4 years of Donald, I’m beyond ready for some boredom and monotony.
I’m looking at this as a dichotomy between ‘boring, but safe’ (Biden) and ‘exciting, but dangerous’ (Trump). There will be a profound relief for a while now that the dangers of Trump have passed. Give it a few months, though, and the craving for excitement will return now that we are safely cradled in Milquetoast Joe’s arms. As Phil said, lots of book and tabloid gossip fodder ahead.
Renee, upon revisiting my reply to you from a few days ago I’m realizing there were some elements of projection in my saying ‘people will eventually get bored and seek excitement’. In other words, I am eating humble pie here and admitting I might be wrong in what I said, for I pursued some risky behavior against my rational judgement on a personal basis not long after writing my post seeking excitement for myself.
I also turned out to be incorrect when I said early last year to Phil that I didn’t believe Joe Biden would become President. At the time I felt he was severely weakened and drained by grief over his son Beau’s premature death in his 40’s.
All I can say here is being wrong is a learning experience for me…..hopefully.
Ugg, yes, I agree that acknowledging being wrong allows for learning and growth to happen. By the way, what do you mean when you say, “I pursued some risky behavior against my rational judgement on a personal basis not long after writing my post seeking excitement for myself”.
Renee, I won’t refuse to answer your question, but I’d rather discuss such things off the blog.
I understand, Ugg. I feel for you. Actually, I wasn’t looking for a discussion, just clarification, here on the blog. But I support you in setting boundaries for yourself.
Is that waving goodbye in that picture or waving a fist? And it’s me saying: ‘Goodbye sister disco’, after the Who song. For me ‘Sister disco’ is a perfect moniker for Trump.
lovely day!
One of the more fascinating things Biden did during his ENORMOUSLY productive first day (including fifteen executive orders signed to immediately undo Trump craziness) was to tell all of his senior staff they will treat each other with respect or they will be ‘fired on the spot’.
Just think how incredible the circumstances are for the new president to be forced to tell his staff not to be malicious to each other under threat of losing their jobs.
I wonder what sort of selfish advantages Trump gained by allowing his senior staff to spend four years angrily backstabbing, spying, and denigrating each other like a violent zoo? The turnover rate in the Trump White House by far shattered all known records on sitting presidents. More than 500 people in senior level positions either quit or were fired during four years of Trump,
My best guess here is that Trump could selfishly gain lots of valuable information for his own advantage since an angry staff backstabbing each other gives off the most valuable information at a huge cost in morale. The only problem being, unlike a private business, the USA won’t readily fold as an entity due to crappy morale with staff sniping at each other in a round of Hunger Games. Staff can be easily replaced, and indeed it was!
So again I wonder: What personal advantages did Trump glean from turning his senior staff into a Hunger Games arena just like the “Apprentice” show with so much hostility or so many firings? I alluded to the extra information gleaned from angry people, but how would Trump find that useful for himself? What examples might there be?
(Yes, I’d clean up what I wrote above a bit….but I just woke up in a nap and wanted to write all this down in a hurry before I forgot.)
Guru,
that sounds like yelling at your kids to be nice. I think a big difference is that Biden is appointing more appropriate staff members. Trump surrounded himself with ass kissers and incompetents.
another lovely day. maybe.
I’m posting the above clip about Gabby Murillo’s unimaginably difficult rehabilitation attempts after a drunk driver slammed into the back of her car. The first inclination is to blame all of this on the drunk driver and throw away the key. Sentiment well understood there, especially with a million US injuries from car crashes on top of the 40,000 deaths each year.
I don’t think it’s quite so simple to blame this on the drunk driver, though. Imagine for a moment if I was drunk and walking down the street, bumping into you from behind while on the sidewalk. Would you likely suffer from lifelong paralyzing injuries as a result of it? NO!
Such massive injuries require fast moving heavy vehicles, and it’s precisely the carnage left behind by the system requiring hundreds of millions of multi-ton machines moving around at 70 miles per hour to keep this monstrosity of a country going that i complain about so much.
These are things I desperately needed to learn and understand during my college years, but…there are too many military-industrial overlords who don’t give a shit about the dynamics of human frailty against the automotive machine and only want to teach you courses to help make THEM money. Trumpism at its finest, so to speak.
In 1910 a car moving at 8 miles per hour was considered an INCREDIBLE rate of speed. Now 70 miles per hour is normalized. What we’re seeing with Gabby clip above is the fallout from that.
Guru, we need to get our cars to be at least as smart as horses.
In 1980 Jimmy Carter was not re-elected due to his perceived failure at handling the Iranian hostage crisis. It heralded a great 40-year supercycle of Republican and right-leaning politics with Reagan’s entrance.
I have some suspicions this great supercycle is now over. Trump was a one-term failure due to COVID and the Capitol insurrection. Democrats are building steam and the US’s demographics among young people are leaning strongly Democrat with Republican Baby Boomers dying off.
Trump was the GOP’s own one-term Jimmy Carter and the great new 40-year supercycle towards left-leaning politics has now begun.
Just a thought.
that guy must be depressed. top boss of the world one minute, and lowly butt the next. i chuckle a little, but also a little empathy, even for that creep. i have been down a lot in my life. but i am sure he will do something terrible with all the time he has on his hands now.
I’m sad that my childhood baseball hero, Hank Aaron, has passed away. I was a big baseball fan and wanted to become a good player myself. I even kept a scrapbook of newspaper clippings about Aaron’s accomplishments. He seems to have been a very good person as well, maybe that was part of the attraction. At that time I rooted for his team, the Atlanta Braves, but when I was older I changed my primary allegiance to the hometown Yankees. I can remember my father coming home with the New York Daily News, which I’d grab and immediately turn to the sports section. Nowadays I’m only interested in World Cup Soccer, when that comes around, or the Olympics. Maybe sports seem too trivial for me to follow; I prefer to be playing y self. Phil
what’s her name? she has a birthday. 5 years old. i remember my son’s name alex. they could have at least named her alexa and his name alex junior. they should have known i would be forgetting stuff by now. kelsey. the joys of getting older by the minute. rained here l.a. 000001 inch. whoopee. big raccoon hanging around this week, tried and maybe succeeded in killing a poor shrieking possum. thanks, Life–you so good to us.
Here’s a short, 20 min. film about PT. You may have seen it before but for me it was new. The highlight is the documentation of what groups looked like in the 1970’s. It’s also nice to see young Art and Vivian walk and talk simply and clearly about PT. The film’s age shows – from the Shaft-like background music which now feels so odd, to Art talking about PT while driving an open convertible, to scenes of the beach – a now uncomfortable to see mixture of Pain and the carefree California lifestyle. It all comes together in a final scene where Art is talking about PT being a revolution while we see him riding a white horse(!) on the beach, evoking messianic images.
http://archive.org/details/primaltherapyinsearchoftherealyou
Daniel, it said on archive page linked that the video was taped in 1973, yet the actual ending credits say it was filmed in 1976 so I will trust the latter.
GREAT find! Wow, I had a huge kick of enjoyment watching it. What a trip!
Wow, Daniel! What a find. That is much like big group as I remember it, a few years after the film. All that chaos of everyone spread out on the floor of the big room, with therapists moving among patients, kleenex everywhere, that big crib against the wall. That is what it was like, although not as crowded each and every time. It wasn’t always hard to find a spot on the floor to lay down. But I remember having to be careful to make room and watch out to avoid accidentally hitting someone. Sometimes a patient would go to the wall, to hit it, and patients next to them needed to move to make room for the one “letting go”, so no one got hurt. It was more of a proactive time, in pursuit of specific feelings, more intentional and directed, and the deliberate attempts to “let go” fueled or triggered other patients, of course. Not new, but I’m thinking out loud. Being new in the 70’s, maybe we had more expectations of “a therapy cure” happening in a bigger way and more rapidly, than how it often really occurs, when you’re not “pushing” so deliberately. This will keep me thinking about it for awhile — “the old days”.
A couple times, I thought I recognized Leslie, but was not sure, without a better look at his face. It was nice to see “Art” and “Vivian” again, and recognize their voices. They look just a few years younger than when I met them. Vivian interviewed me for therapy, and Art did my video-interview.
But I don’t remember any beach houses, horses, sport-convertibles, etc.being part of therapy. Except we patients later did organize and have “primal volleyball” every Sunday at Venice beach, that lasted for over a year. I was crap at it, but I went, faithfully, for the social life. Thanks for the find, Daniel — how did you come across it?
Vicki, I think the implication was that the beach houses, horses, and sport convertibles are what we enjoy after all our Primalling is done. The post-Primal lifestyle, so to speak.
Despite Art’s subtle appearances of greed and white knight horseback riding messianism as Daniel noted, Art did seem well-meaning and sincere towards his patients in the video. I’ve certainly experienced a lot more personal growth following Art’s direction than I would have with worthless & greedy televangelists such as Kenneth Copeland or Joel Osteen.
Like you, Vicki, I remember the big group in the large room (on Pico). It was in the 1980’s and although not as crowded as in the film it did have the scenes you describe. How have I come across the film? I was on archive.org and just put PT in the search box to see what will come up. And there it was. I don’t know what the circumstances were in creating this film, but it should be noted that even though Art and Vivian seem to fully cooperate with it, it isn’t their film in that most likely they were not the ones to call the shots, cuts, or other artistic decisions. Again, for me the group scenes are the documentary highlight.
Mustering the ability to bring a white stallion onto the Pacific beachfront for a casual stroll is a pretty spectacularly privileged feat all its own, isn’t it? Or am I residing in a small and constricted sphere of personal mediocrity for thinking this way?
At any rate, I would like Vicki to disregard my earlier (now likely mistaken) post about the Janovs trying to convey a message about post-Primal lifestyles if Daniel is correct in writing that it wasn’t their film to edit or call the shots on, being more like an impromptu episode of ‘Candid Camera’ instead.
This video has been around on Facebook. That’s what group was like when I started in New York, often probably more noise than real feelings. I wonder if groups are still like that, and therapy in general, at the Primal Center.
Phil
Dog lovers, pet lovers, animal lovers, friends,
My favorite doggie in the whole wide world needs your help. Gilbert is Louise’s dog (my sister-in-law) and he is in hospital right now. He has not eaten in days, diarrhea, dehydrated, in pain, very weak. Vets say it could be gastroenteritis or kidneys. Let’s hope it’s not Covid! He is on IV-drip.
I have taken care of little G on many occasions when they lived in Cornwall. He helped me get out of a deep depression, he helped me feel my heart again, he helped me feel unconditional love. I feel very connected to him. We had some of the most gorgeous and joyful walks through the forests, the countryside, and along the cliffs and beaches of Cornwall. Those days belong to my happiest days in my life. Now I am so sad, my heart hurts.
Please send some good thoughts or prayers or energy or light or whatever you can do to help my little furry friend, at the moment in hospital in Brighton.
Thank you!
Bernadette, sending good vibes and prayers to Dear Gilbert, and comfort to you and your family. Our pets have our hearts. Hope it goes well.
S
Silvia, thanks so much for good vibes and prayers and comfort you’re sending. I hope with you that all goes well…with all my heart!
B
Sounds like a terrible situation Gilbert is going through, and I will close my eyes to meditate with prayerful thoughts for his recovery if there is still hope for him. Sorry to hear of this crushing turn of events, Bernadette.
Guru, thanks so much for prayerful thoughts for little G and kind words! Yes, I agree, it is terrible! it pains me to think of him scared and in pain in hospital. Thank god they have night staff that takes care of him. I hope with all my heart that he will get through this.
Bernadette…I’m sorry about Gilbert being so poorly…I hope he’ll pull through..very painful time for you and Louise and family.
I’m holding my fingers for Gilbert to pull through, and for you too Bernadette.
hi Vicki,
that does not sound right, so many hours to work for so long and not even extra pay!
and so sorry you had to miss that speech in which you were honored!
did noone think of pushing the ‘recor’ key, that is, if it was a Zoom meeting?
I know the staff of our helpline does do that when some new volunteers can’t attend one of the instruction meetings, so they can still post the recorded training.
and ha, we also have problems here with the vaccine deliveries ‘stuttering’, and the thought had crossed my mind part of the reason might be more vaccines were sent to for example the US, but so to hear that is not the cause.
it is a huge challenge,logistically and otherwise.
here we have more and more outbreaks of the British and South African mutations, the latter being specially scary, more contageous, 30 percent more deadly, and not reacting as well as the other mutations on the vaccines…
in my own neighborhood, very close to the part of town where most orthodox Jewish people live, and in a few other neighborhoods, also with a population of large families and an intense social interaction, incidence of infections are 4 to 5 times as high as in other parts of town.
so everyone of those neighborhoods has been invited to get tested as soon as possible, but only a minority responds to the invitation.
the school next to my appartment, the largest Jewish school of town, has also been closed yesterday because of too many cases, and they should all be tested but the test can’t be legally imposed.
one solution mentioned is to classify all people who refuse a test as positive and tell them they have to do a quarantaine.
we were doing kind of ok with decreasing numbers until a few days ago, but now al the numbers are increasing again, which feels scary, specially with the new mutations being spread around here fast.
i really hope people will start taking their responsibility more, they have been adressed reguarly about it, and also some rabbis and for the muslim groups, imams promised to encourage getting tests.
but one synagogue has just been shut because of 3 repeated infractions of the rule to only do religious gatherings of not more than 15 attendants.
the rule was already adjusted for the Jewish community up to that number, as they have a minimum of ten attendants necessary to form a religious gathering.
but still some of them stick to their own opinions and behaviour.
now of course in this case the situation has a focus on those communities because of their high level of Corona cases, but in the Netherlands the evening clock has been protested against violently yesterday by groups of young people, in one village they even put fire to a testing and vaccinating center.
it all gets so crazy and scary…
I still do the volunteering job at the phone helpline, which is very busy, and there we are usually several people working, but we try to be as careful as possible, ventilating, cleaning, masks when coming in the community areas.
but of course it is never entirely safe, also the ride up and back with a taxi is not without risk, despite masks and sitting in the back…
my mom gets her second vaccine this coming saturday, and I hope very much vaccines will soon start arriving in larege numbers.
our local company, a partner of Johnson and Johnson, should soon get its vaccine accepted as well, I hope, it only needs one application instead of two, and does not need the deep freeze cooling.
i notice everyone, including me, starts living on edge, the stress of never feeling really safe, and not much of a pleasant social life either.
I am glad though I started the volunteer thing just in time, as it creates a new social circle and feels like a very useful thing ot do.
after the three hour shifts I do feel exhausted though, it is so intense to deal with callers often very serious problems and to try and give them some support.
but ass I say, it still feels good to do it, and aprart of the Zoom schoolings and extra formations and evaluations, we normally have only one shift every week.
unless someone gets sick and has to be replaced.
take good care Vicki, and congratulations for being so good at your job you got celebrated!
Margaret
Thanks, Margaret — they didn’t think to record it, but after awhile, I got my boss to email me a copy of the speech about me, that the Dean read, and it made me cry, it was so nice.
I am glad your helping with the phone volunteer work is going so well, overall. And hopefully some sanity will prevail in your community, regarding Covid. I know Belgium has one of the worst records in the world, for surviving the virus.
I am pasting here the text of an article I read yesterday, about one nursing home that has managed to have NO Covid cases, at all. It’s amazing. Here is the link, followed by the text, so you can more easily read it.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/baltimore-nursing-home-covid-free/?ftag=CNM-00-10aab6i&linkId=109747223&fbclid=IwAR0QfAwYBOXauCNhAOOOawNHtcre2r2mwCL0yRgUBmn0PpUbXzD_zyO79aI
How one nursing home warded off the coronavirus and saved lives
By Megan Cerullo
January 22, 2021 / 6:43 AM CBS MoneyWatch
COVID-19 has devastated America’s nursing homes, killing more than 100,000 residents and workers over the course of the pandemic. But one small long-term care facility in Baltimore is proof the toll could have been much lower: The Maryland Baptist Aged Home has recorded zero cases of COVID-19, says its director, the Rev. Dr. Derrick DeWitt. The feat is all the more impressive because the home caters mostly to low-income people of color, who as a group have been hit disproportionately hard by the disease.
The Rev. Dr. Derrick DeWitt, director of the Maryland Baptist Aged Home, said “the models that we have of long-term care facilities almost lend themselves to infection.”
CBS MoneyWatch: Tell us about the Maryland Baptist Aged Home. How many residents do you care for? How many workers do you employ?
We are a small facility with 29 residents, including my aunt, and 42 employees. We are located in a struggling, very impoverished part of Baltimore. We’ve had to deal with a lot of disparities and lack of services in the area, which in my estimation makes our success that much more impressive.
What were some of the first steps you took after realizing that COVID-19 was a threat?
When I heard President Trump say we only have 15 cases of COVID and that soon we’d be down to zero, I said to myself, ‘We are on our own over here.’ I didn’t have any confidence that leadership would help us through this time. Immediately, on the 28th of February, we shut down the facility.
What does shutting down entail for a nursing home?
When we locked down there was no visitation at all. No one who didn’t need to have direct contact with residents was allowed in the facility — not even myself.
But employees who interacted with residents were free to return home after their shifts. How did you ensure they didn’t become infected outside of work and bring the virus into the facility?
We were extreme with our employees. We had to get buy-in from them. We had to stress and impress upon them the importance of staying safe outside the facility. We asked them, ‘Are you committed, if necessary, to being separated from your spouse and to keeping a distance from your children and wearing masks at home and only interacting with family members if absolutely necessary?’
These were things we asked employees to commit to. We asked them not to go to family gatherings. We didn’t want them taking public transportation, so we paid for Ubers, Lyfts and necessary things so they would not have to ride public transport and risk being exposed to other people.
Essentially, you monitored how they spent all their time away from the facility.
We asked them questions when they showed up to work. Our questionnaire is a little more intrusive than what a regular questionnaire would be. We want to know what you did every minute and hour since you left our facility. Who did you go out with or ride with. Short of asking them, ‘Did you sleep with anyone last night?’ it’s pretty deep.
And everyone bought in. That’s why all credit for us being COVID-free has to go to our employees. They bought in lock, stock and barrel into these extreme safety measures, and they have done a phenomenal job of keeping our residents safe.
I attribute our success to what I call the “Four E’s.” We were early, excessive, extreme, and we made sure we looked out for the emotional well-being of our residents and employees.
And it turns out these extreme measures weren’t so extreme, but rather appropriate and effective. What other steps did you take?
We stockpiled personal protective equipment early on in the pandemic. And when they said to keep six-feet distance, we did 12 feet.
We also couldn’t ignore the toll of isolation and separation, with no more community meals or activities. We made sure every room had a television and radio, and each resident was able to FaceTime or Zoom with their family on a weekly basis. We also brought in extra “activities staff” to make sure people had one-on-one activities and exercise.
Why have nursing homes, assisted living centers and other long-term care facilities suffered so many COVID-related deaths?
I want to underscore that some facilities could have done everything right and still ended up with COVID. I think the models that we have of long-term care facilities almost lend themselves to infection. These facilities are too large. When you talk about having 300 to 400 people and trying to control infection during a pandemic, that’s going to be a lose-lose situation right there. But if your facility is smaller, you can better control and manage who is coming in and out.
How many of your staffers and residents have been vaccinated so far? Can you see light at the end of the tunnel?
It was really challenging to get people to take the vaccine at first, with misinformation and a lack of information and lack of leadership. But I took it first to try to encourage people to do it, and I assured them I had no residual effects from taking the vaccine, and more people came around after that. That went a long way in reassuring people that it was OK to take it.
So far we have vaccinated 24 of 29 residents and 33 of 42 employees. Regarding the few residents who haven’t been vaccinated yet, we are waiting for approval from family members or their guardians. And with the few employees that have not yet taken it, it’s just a scheduling thing.
I can see the light at the end of tunnel, but I think it’s a long tunnel. We have a long way to go to getting people as a whole — not just my facility — to accept and to take this vaccine.
Have you loosened any of the measures you put in place at the beginning of the pandemic?
We are staying the course as if we’re in Phase 1 of the pandemic. The only restriction we’ve loosened is we now allow outdoor visits with 12 or more feet of separation — so the resident is on the porch and the family is in the yard. Other than to get my two vaccinations, I haven’t been inside since March 1.
First published on January 22, 2021 / 6:43 AM
© 2021 CBS Interactive Inc. All Rights Reserved.
Bernadette, I hope that special dog Gilbert will be OK.
Phil
Phil, thanks! I really hope so too with all my heart!
Bernadette, good luck for Gilbert! And you, and Louise. I didn’t realize they live down in Brighton — that’s where Prue lives, or near. By the way, how old is little G?
Bee, I’m so sorry to hear what Gilbert is going through. I know how much you love him and he knows it too. Please continue to let us know how he is and how you are holding up as well. I truly hope he will be well and running and playing very soon. Gretch
Vicki,
that is great, that you got the text of the speech!
do you feel like posting some extracts of it here?
About the Corona situation here in Belgium, we have indeed done very poorly in spring during the first wave, and the second wave in autumn wasn’t much better.
but right now, since November, we were doing better, actually better than any of the countries surrounding us.
also we did always count every single case, while other countries only counted the hospital Corona deaths.
at this point we are on a point the decrease of numbers stabilized and threatens to start rising again, hopefully we can avoid a bad third wave!
but my mom’s nursing home, despite having had many casualties last spring, when also my mom got Corona but was better after a week, now has been doing extremely well.
since summer only two or three separate cases, two in the assistance apartments, and one or two in the home itself, but most of them got better.
and since autumn no cases at all, not one!
and since may we were always allowed to visit, under changing conditions, but nevertheless it felt like a huge relief to everyone, staff, residents and family, to be able to get together, even with all the restrictions.
they all got their first shot and will get the second dose on Saturday, including the staff.
it is sad the vaccine supply seems to be problematic, two big concerns already coming back on the promises they made.
a big restriction recently made, which seems important, is that unessential travels abroad have been prohibited. during the xmas holidays they only were disadvised, hm, is that a word?
and 150000 people travelled to holiday resorts anyway, and too often brought back different mutations of the virus.
so right now here in Belgium we are doing not that badly, but if the new variations of Corona would start spreading we are back on the wrong track again.
and a big problem is all countries around us have many more cases than we do, and with the new mutations…
it is not reassuring to hear the news bulletins to say the least…
hope you all manage to get vaccinated asap!
M
Margaret, I am glad it’s not as bad in Belgium now, hopefully can be maintained. I read one alarming news item yesterday, along the lines you mentioned. One confirmed case of Covid from last April, who recovered completely, has just been confirmed to have caught a mutated variety discovered I think in No. Calif. So they are already wondering if the new variant will circumvent the vaccines. Lots of unknowns.
Gretchen, Vicki, Jo, Daniel,
thanks so much for your kind thoughts and sentiments for little Gilbert! Very much appreciated indeed!
Vicki – Little G is about eight-ish. The life expectancy for his breed (Parson Terrier) is up to 15 years, so he has plenty of time to enjoy once he comes out of this. Fingers crossed. Louise moved to Brighton last year.
To all:
Gilbert is a little livelier today, his liver and kidney functions are back to normal. He is still at the clinic, still not eating, still in pain, still dehydrated and on IV, but today he was threatening to nip at someone’s hand, which shows some of his personality, and hopefully a sign that he’s on the mend. He doesn’t like to be touched or fussed over when he is in pain. I can’t bear thinking of him in pain!
You all got to know that I didn’t even like dogs before I met Gilbert! He completely turned my heart around. I fell in love with him on the first visit, and even more so during the many extended visits that followed. As stated previously, he was opening my heart and allowed me to feel unconditional love. I had not felt unconditional love for many years, if ever. For that reason, he is truly a special dog to me. And that’s why his illness is really getting to me. I am especially concerned because my Swiss niece’s dog died a few weeks ago, her little terrier Myleen had very similar symptoms as Gilbert, and it is freaking me out thinking that little G could have the same illness. My niece had an autopsy done, but all they found out that it was a virus. They didn’t test for Covid, though. She said to me today that she now thinks that she didn’t take her Myleen to the vet’s soon enough, that’s why she died. I hope for Gilbert it was soon enough, and he is bigger and stronger than Myleen was, so there is hope. But I’m rambling.
I keep sending healing energy…
I did follow through on my promise to close my eyes and meditatively lend prayerful thoughts for little Gilbert’s well-being. Four mini-sessions at 15-20 seconds each. Hope it helps and I will continue.
Guru, you are very sweet for meditating for Gilbert and I am very sure that it helps! Thank you!
Bernadette, thinking of Gilbert. You probably have already considered the possibility of pet food recall. We hear of one lately due to a mold growing on some of the ingredients. I googled if any have been recalled in the UK and a different brand for a different reason is being recalled. Mars brand is recalling some pet food there for high levels of vitamin D. The pet would have to have been on the food for a long time to affect their health, though.
If the link does not work, you can google pet recalls in the UK.
https://www.food.gov.uk/news-alert/fsa-prin-04-2021
I will try again.
https://www.food.gov.uk/news-alerts/alert/fsa-prin-04-2021
Silvia, it’s so very sweet of you to do this research! Indeed I have not thought of pet food recall. I automatically jumped to the conclusion that it is a virus (which has not been confirmed). But moldy food could be a possibility. Now you’re making me think… there might be some other hazards in the house because they are renovating and have workers in the house. Lots of building materials…G is known to stick his nose into things and lick and eat things that he shouldn’t….who knows! I will follow up on the pet food recall. Thanks, Silvia, much appreciated!
Also, I know that giving a small dog fatty foods, like a piece of bacon or cheese can set off inflammation in the pancreas (pancreatitis.) A friend’s little dog also, after eating turkey had pancreatitis and she was able to give him gatorade to help. Hopefully the fluids they have G on will help whatever he is ailing from. Hope he gets well. Special vibes…
Sylvia, agreed, G can’t have cheese, bacon only once in a while 😉 As far as I know he gets only dog food now. But who knows how things change, especially during a stressful move and renovation of the house… At this point we don’t know what caused it. As far as I know he is on a saline drip because of the dehydration.
Oh I am glad that your friend’s little dog could be helped with Gatorade. These little dogs are so cute and we want to spoil them and give them “treats” not realizing that giving them human food only causes illness in the little ones. A friend’s Labrador once ate a whole box of chocolates; she had left the shopping bags on the floor when she came back from the market, and took a phone call without paying attention to the dog! The Lab just simply ripped the box open! She had to have his stomach pumped or he would have surely died, poor thing!
Thanks for special vibes!
Sylvia, thanks again, the second link works!
I can only describe my grieving dad these past two years (including the two months before death) with three words: sorrow, defeat, and emptiness.
It never seems to go away. I hugged him twice a week or more, that nobly innocent and religious academic teddy bear.
Everything just feels so constantly glum and grim without his chipper British/German witticisms brightening me up. A sacred, steady force helping to guide the way for me.
OK, I’m just finding a few tears here and I’m done.
I imagine people are sick of my talking about it after all this time.
There are slightly over 7 billion people alive today with about 110 billion people who have joined the ranks of the dead since the start of humanity’s evolution past the bonobo.
Bringing them all back to Earth (with a few carefully curated exceptions) would wreck the planet’s carrying capacity anyway, no matter wrong it feels for our loved ones to die.
From that standpoint death is not only natural, but a necessity.
Bernadette,
I hope Gilbert (do you pronounce it the French or English way?0 will be back happy and healthy very soon again!
I relate entirely to hating the idea of a loved pet being on its own and scared at the vet’s.
for me part of it is certainly a projection of my own childhood experiences, having to be without my mom for some periods of time while she was in hospital.
Guru,
I am always touched when you talk about your dad and what he means to you.
I think we all probably don’t mind at all you talking as much as you want about it here.
M
Gilbert was taken home this morning. He was still not eating or drinking at the clinic, probably traumatized and separation anxiety. When he came home, he was really listless and apathetic, wouldn’t eat, stared into space. Only after a few hours at home he ate a bite and drank some water and took antibiotics. That’s a big relief. He has perked up a little bit. They are playing soft mindful music for dogs for him – how sweet. Let’s hope he can start to recover now! We are feeling a bit more optimistic. Fingers crossed!!
Margaret,
Thanks for your kind words. His name, Gilbert, comes from Louise’s and Mark’s grandfather, and is pronounced in English. I agree that feeling for him being alone and scared at the clinic is also my projection of feeling abandoned and lonely. That said, he really doesn’t do well in general when he is somewhere he doesn’t know. He does have separation anxiety, generally.
Guru,
I also like it when you write about your dad. I like hearing about the tender feelings you feel for him. Keep going.
Bee, I’m so glad Gilbert is home! I think he will be happier in his own cozy environment. Maybe you could post one of his cute pictures ! 🙂 Gretch
This morning Gilbert ate a tiny bit. They bathed him and took him for a short walk. Then he rested. Two hours later he ate a lot! Apparently he couldn’t resist the chicken 🙂 It was such great news! Hopefully he is getting better quickly now!
I was totally in panic when little G got sick. Probably because Myleen died with similar symptoms and very quickly. I feel relieved now that the worst is over, I think, I hope.
Gretchen, yes, I agree. Thanks! I could, but I don’t know how to post pictures here, sorry. Bee
Based on how you described things were going earlier I am surprised and happy to know Gilbert seems to be on the road to full recovery, so maybe soon he will bring lots of comfort and joy once more?
Just the same as yourself in your life before Gilbert, I’ve never been a pet owner so I hope I don’t come across as a little ‘wooden’ or ‘fake’ here. It’s hard for me to bridge the gap of relatability on having attachments with beloved pets.I ran into this same issue when Vicki’s dog passed away earlier.
I’m glad my set of 8-10 prayerful thought sessions worked out for Gil. I usually charge $5,000 per prayer session due to the sheer power and efficacy of my own directed spiritual healing intentions, but I was happy to help out free of charge since you are one of my favorite people, Bernadette. More prayerful thoughts will be sent your way to help put the finishing touches on Gilbert’s healing path.
I’m relieved for you Bernadette.
Bernadette, I’m glad to hear the good news about Gilbert.
I looked up and listened to some mindful dog music not knowing what to expect. Thinking
it might include percussive bone clicking and dogs barking, but it didn’t. What I heard didn’t
do much for me, probably a good sign.
Phil
Gilbert is getting better, what a relief! Today he was walking a bit more and eating a lot of gourmet food – chicken, rice, scrambled eggs, he doesn’t touch the raw pellets (is supposed to be “the thing” now – shrug, I dunno) but is eyeing the lasagna instead. Still sleeps a lot. I think he is really getting through this now, whatever it was. Louise said she also was afraid that he would die. The more we all are relieved to see him getting better. Thank you all for your prayers, good thoughts, wishes, and energy you sent. I totally believe that it helped, still helps!
Guru,
G was taken to the clinic on the 24th but he had not eaten several days before that, it seems such a long time ago! But just to say, Myleen died within 24 hours, so quickly. No wonder my panic! I did have a cat and a bunny before but I didn’t have the same feelings for them as for Gilbert. He is special. He made it so easy to love him. In general, I don’t love easily because of my fucked up childhood, can’t trust anybody, so G has been/is a very special experience for me. And I am fully aware that he is not my dog and, most of the time, I am living my dog lover life vicariously through someone else. But he touches my heart all the same. Have you ever thought of a dog for a companion? I appreciate very much your free-of-charge prayerful thought sessions for G!! I know you did it out of the goodness of your heart. You know that every prayer or healing thought you have for someone is being returned to you manifold.
Larry,
Thanks! …. How are you? I hope all is going well for you!
Phil,
“percussive bone clicking and dogs barking” that’s so funny, but makes sense. I didn’t know either what mindful dog music was until I looked it up. If it doesn’t do much for you, it’s a good sign because it either means a) you are already relaxed; or b) it doesn’t have an affect on you because you are not a dog (wink). Thanks for your kind thoughts about G getting better!
Bernadette, with Gilbert being Louise’s dog and your obvious affection for him, does this prompt you to visit Louise more often during regular times when Gil is not sick? Two bonuses in one there, I suppose.
I go get why people enjoy their dogs…being soothing, tranquilizing, and loveable as opposed to the unending stressors of life
I say this in all earnestness that if I could build a net worth of $3 million with a large chunk properly stowed away in AAA corporate annuities for secure lifetime income, I would consider introducing all the dramas and emotional attachments of a dog.
I’d be willing to go to a lower threshold, say $1.5-$1.8 million, for possibly introducing a cat since it’s not as rambunctious and doesn’t bark as much as a dog…lower maintenance.
Otherwise I can’t afford to introduce the external drama (you’re seeing this firsthand with Gilbert) when my brain is already overloaded with conflicts and strategizing thoughts for life survival.
(typo) I *do get why people enjoy their dogs…
That’s so true about cats not barking as much as dogs; mine hardly bark at all.
S =^–^=
Sylvia, I know you’re having fun with this surely, but I do realize in my current life station I couldn’t afford to have my heartstrings constantly and involuntarily pulled by a creature who doesn’t understand the concept of paying bills.
I seriously have to manage my cognitions and where all my thinking energy goes each day, and that is still an uphill battle due to numerous distractions, repetitive thoughts useless for today’s needs, etc.
Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerberg always wore the same color outfits every day (at least for many years). Why? So they wouldn’t waste cognitive energy on deciding what color and style of clothes to wear each day when there was a much larger concern of running a giant tech company.
And no, I am not nearly as brutally efficient with cognitive expenditures as Jobs and Zuck referenced above. The general point I am trying to make is I have to be extremely leery of adding new cognitive albatrosses at a time when I need to keep paring things down so I can make sure my life is going to be somewhat OK over the long run.
No worries, Grasshopper. You are not ready for the feeling task of taking on a vulnerable pet whose meager function is to bring joy to its caretaker. Regarding the feed bill, it would be a substitute for the beer or pudding or other junk food bill you wouldn’t incur in that you’d get your emotional high and buzz from the companionship of your worshipping meow-er. Oh, and less weight gain, too.
Maybe, Grasshopper, you will some day be open to the non-cognitive pleasures of communing with a feline. Enough of the excuses, I have heard them all. Peace and warmth and calmness to you. Namaste.
Sylvia, unfortunately I have many issues and disagreements to what you’re now saying here. This didn’t bring peace for me because it adds the weight of many more words which now need to be said which I don’t want to go into right now for the sake of my own life’s efficiency. (In other words, I have three errands I have to run tonight and I can’t get bogged down in disagreements now)
Also…,.don’t you think….oh, I don’t know…your post might have been slightly on the arrogant side of things? Just a little?
Sure, just a little arrogant, but it comes with the territory of being a guru of sorts. I thought it would make you laugh…a little anyways.
S
Bringing home a six pack of beer to escape my troubles for a few hours at a time of my own choosing is a far cry from making a multiple year commitment to caring for an animal.
Fuck it, I will “chuck” one of my errands, which was supposed to be a huge grocery shopping trip, and pare it down to two errands. External cross-currents and the pet discussion rattled me just enough to defer it until tomorrow.
I will subsist on popcorn and tea for the evening.
Bernadette, I’ve fallen in love. As a result my life is richer, deeper, more meaningful than ever before, and is stirring life altering primal trouble that I’ve never let myself see before. All good.
Larry, I am glad for you. Nicely put; it sounds like a whole different level of experience. Enjoy!
PS: I do miss reading your deep reaching comments and thought process.
I’m surprised at how much of my time, thoughts and feelings go toward getting to know my special lady friend in our deepening romantic relationship. I imagine we will eventually reach a plateau after we become deeply enmeshed in each others lives and in tune with one another to the extent that we will be able to slow down to catch our breath and devote more time to all the other things that add richness to our lives. I do still keep an eye on the blog. Thanks for your kind words Bernadette. 🙂
Gilbert is getting better. He eats a lot now. Today they went for a walk in the fields outside the city, I got a short video. Usually he would be running around like a wild dog, trying to catch the birds or sniffing the ground, or digging up the dirt; today he was just standing there with his nose in the wind and closing his eyes. It made me feel a bit sad. He still needs time to recover. Hopefully he soon will be back to his old self.
Guru, unfortunately, I have not seen them in over a year, and now with Covid-19 and its mutations raging all over, I don’t have the urge to travel long distance!
I hear you about the commitment and efforts involved in taking care of a dog. A cat is definitely more independent. Then there is the proven fact that people who live alone and have a pet, generally live longer and healthier lives than people who live alone without a pet. Reason being they have “someone” else to take care of and gives them another focus than putting all their attention on problems and stressors. But I get it, if having a pet would add to your daily stress, it would defeat the purpose. My “excuse” for not having my own dog is that I never have felt settled enough to have a pet after I left Switzerland. I always feel temporary, wherever I am. And I kind of like it that way, therefore making a commitment to a dog would be far out there….even though I would love to enjoy the benefits of it.
Let’s say I took a chance and did adopt a cat, brought it home, and realized I wasn’t able to care for him/her. Giving the cat up for adoption even after a short period would kill me with lots of terrible guilt feeling as though I did something terribly wrong to him. It has semi-strong echoes of leaving my dad behind to die. Too much to bear for my frail conscience.
I’d have to contact Sylvia or Margaret and ask her to take over so I would know for sure there was a good, safe home for it. It would be the only way out of such a hellish regret for me.
I’m just happy you’re here with us, Bernadette. I should mention that at least 1/3rd, possibly 1/2, of my own blood ancestry traces back to Swabian Germany and Austria, so yeah whenever you bring up Switzerland and your dad as you did years ago I always felt at least a partial sense of relatability to that in the background.
SSG, I’m afraid my “Kung Fu” show parody didn’t fly well with you –maybe it’s a generational gap thing. I was going to say straight forward that having a pet can be very relaxing and therapeutic and open your heart. Yes, I have heard the good reasons for not having one, I was being dismissive as the Master Po character was in saying I have heard them all, the excuses. But I have found that relating to a pet has enormously helped my therapy. Being with such a vulnerable creature who is all feeling opens you up. Who knows it could make your computer work easier and flow better living with one.
That’s all, I just wanted to clarify a bit, and I had no intention of eliciting hostility. I know your allergy to primal and didn’t want you to reflexively dismiss the benefits of a therapeutic catalyst of having a pet, so I wasn’t straight forward with my thoughts. I do know there are good reasons to wait to have a pet. But I didn’t want the discussion to go by without listing some of the benefits and how greatly it has helped my own therapy and that I have learned from my pets.
S
“I know your allergy to primal…”
Whoa whoa whoa, stop right there…
–You lived in California for many years, right?
–You never wanted to go to Vivian or Art’s place even though Art deems an actual trained therapist’s presence as a necessity for mental safety even though you have been in close geographical proximity to the clinics for a long time
—I risked my life and limb driving rental cars MANY thousands upon thousands of miles (20,000-25,000 miles of driving) to become a patient of Vivian’s Institute, risking the same God-awful fate which befell my mother, the consequences of which drove me to see therapy Barry in the first place.
–And yet, you say “I know your allergy to primal…”
Can you appreciate why I might become irritated here?
This is not quite as bad as Art galloping along on a white stallion on a Malibu beachfront saying everyone ELSE is neurotic. though, LOL! It does confirm why I wanted to avoid such a ‘cult of personality’ and just stick to the principles he espoused.
Well, sorry if this is all you gleaned from and stopped at from my little post.
Yes, this is how I see it now, that you don’t willingly continue with your therapy. That any time you feel bad you think venting or a soothing with food is the answer or whatever act-outs you choose not to get to the source of pain. That is your choice. As for me, I never had the money to go to therapy, never was able to hold down a real job. It would have been nice to inherent big money and spend it on therapy, as you did.
You know I always heard you say when we were buddying and I would tell you that you prob had early pain from your losses, you told me that never dig down, let the feelings come up one at a time As I saw it whenever a feeling would come up you wanted to soothe it. You were hesitant about feeling even the surface things.
So that you challenge me now, that I have for the last seven years sought out everything I could on primal theory, risked looking stupid on the blog, facing my pains–not smoking or blunting in ways that would keep me from dealing with manageable pain, I find rich. Your quick temper and defensiveness belies any current progress that I can see that you have gained from continual therapy.
This isn’t about challenging you or any life actions you’ve taken. All that is fine with me; I have no problem with it. I definitely appreciate when people can’t afford to go, and I have all the sympathy in the world for that. But when you tell me I am ‘allergic to primal’ I am going to eventually at least stand up for myself and tell you why I am irritated by such statements.
I explained many times that how a person approaches a therapeutic path should be customized, “client-centered”. You had a fixed idea that a ‘brute force’ approach is best to where we ask all kinds of “What happened in your childhood?” questions is best for everyone. I proposed that the human mind is a much more convoluted forest than that and it’s not a good idea to directly take a chainsaw to the trunk of a tree with brute force questioning right off the bat.
Well look, I have a primal buddy who has been going to the Institute since the early 70’s and he never found my sincerity towards this approach to be questionable in any way.
The problem with my replying with the rest of your post about pets? That calls for another 40-50 pages of blogging. It’s not that I could ONLY focus on your allergy comment.
Covering everything in detail is just too much damn work!
This is why I say I can’t get bogged down too deeply in blog disagreements as I explained last week, as I have to balance everything with other personal life worries.
There is no need to respond about why you can’t have a pet now or even if you ever want one. My point was to simply point out the benefits, primally speaking, of how they have benefited my therapy and my life. If it’s not for you, or ever will be then that’s your business. Don’t waste your energy on bogging down. No one wants that. Live and be free.
Sylvia, if you don’t mind I want to add something else. You said I had a quick temper…but how do you define something like that? When someone I like irritates me I’m usually very calm about it. I try to detail the exact reasons why I am irritated by something, so hopefully the other person can see what I am seeing?
It’s a far cry from a neighbor surrounding me and harassing me, jumping up and down on my front porch screaming bloody murder at me. Now THAT, at least to me, is a short temper.
Ugg, I’m curious about your comment that, “When someone I like irritates me I’m usually very calm about it. I try to detail the exact reasons why I am irritated by something, so hopefully the other person can see what I am seeing?” I can’t decide if you are kidding or if you really believe this.
Huh? No I’m not kidding at all. It’s not as though I screamed out loud behind my keyboard at Sylvia and beat my chests with my fists like a wild gorilla. Is this what you were envisioning?
Irritating electrical impulses coursed through my biceps and chest, prompting me to jot down all the reasons for this bioelectric activity for Sylvia to see and understand.
(typo) *chest should have been singular, I even made sure of this when I clicked ‘submit reply’ and it still came through as plural.
Upon thinking about this, the only times I’ve screamed in anger were a few times at the wall about my avaricious neighbor. This stuff with Sylvia and Janov is trivial child’s play compared to that. Only irritating electrical impulses were generated in this case, urging further explanations & explorations already provided yesterday.
Rankled would be another good word for it. A rankled wrinkle to be ironed out, and that’s it.
Let’s not be mired in quibbles about what is a temper or an irritation or even how many irritations would equal a temper if accompanied by a cuss word or two, which I think qualifies as a temper. The bigger point is if in the last twenty yrs since your therapy and inclusive of retreats if primal and feelings have served you well, if there are changes in your life. Has ‘doing feelings” helped with anxiety, nervousness, made it easy to socialize, given you patience. Made you sensitive and happy. Or do you feel stuck, have the same blame and hatred for the media, the car industry, the rich fat cats that run things. I think you look outward to your pain and never get to the helplessness and hurt underneath or you would be done with the hate.
As for asking you to talk about your childhood as a brute force way of digging, then I don’t know what to ask to get to feelings. You’ve had twenty yrs to deal with it, but like Phil or Larry and others I don’t hear much of your own digging. It’s up to you whether or not you value primal, but I don’t see much attention given or respect to the healing process.
What does it take? A few days to get to feelings, a phone call to a therapist once in a while? Maybe if you would consider seriously doing small feelings, going along the path steadily to feel what comes up that is continually signaling you in all your present stressors, to be felt, then you could resolve some issues of poor concentration that only allows you to work on your computer projects every 2 months, as you have stated here happens. My take is to feel and not act out. Don’t live in your head, feel with your heart. You have a slew of feeling people here. They will help you.
Sylvia, I had a dog-eared collection of four of Janov’s books when I walked in for my starting three weeks. Do you know what he suggested I do with those books? Burn them.
What if it turned out I was actually much further along in my therapy than you are with yours? Would you be upset? Would it be too audacious of a question to consider?
When I said “he” in my last post I was referring to my initial three-week therapist.
So, you have some sort of measurement in mind to find out? Gee, I simply don’t know how to deal with a non sequitur question like that. Just keep denying your childhood feelings, going along on your merry way. Ask what if, what if, and live in your head. None of my business.
I’ve never before known you to express this much irritation Sylvia.
That’s exactly what I considered posting a few minutes before you came here, Larry. I was going to make a remark about how angry Sylvia is and leave it at that. I realize her birth situation, her being the only daughter, and perhaps survival in the face of maybe not being wanted?,,,,but honestly I have no idea how to approach something like that
Yes, Larry, I am in touch with my anger or irritations. It sometimes surprises me , too.
Seems like healing progress.
Sylvia, since you clearly do not deny your childhood feelings and you value Primal, do you have any idea why Ugg is getting you so riled up?
I may have to think about that for a while, Renee, and see if it leads any where. I do know it’s frustrating when someone does not listen and I cannot get thru to them. It may go back to not being able to get out of my mom at birth. I had a primal of that where I was suffocating, a few yrs ago. Try as I might I could not get anyone to see my plight, they were completely oblivious that I was dying inside, out of air and being crushed. My second line was working in my primal enough to know that I needed outside help. Yes that has been a feeling for me. But I don’t think it negates the sense of a present situation in which someone is a “brick wall” womb. I can more so tell that they are and I won’t get thru to them and that frustration goes back to survival probably.
That I keep trying to get thru to someone is prob from dealing with the old pain. Any inkling I am getting thru and accomplishing to help someone is satisfying. That’s not a bad thing, I don’t think. I have helped a young friend with his feelings, if only to calm them and give encouragement to trust their therapist and tell her things he was embarrassed about.
I have been thru this with Ugg before, and just when I think he is getting more open, there comes the silly remarks or act outs I know he engages in. So, yes, I think it’s time I accept I can not get thru and didn’t when I was being born without nearly dying. Maybe not helping the other person is like a memory of death to me. But I am done. No more trying to reach someone who is not interested.
What is it exactly you’re trying to have me see? I tried to show you my side of things and why I was irritated. I don’t feel as though this came through to you; my reasoning made no sense to you or wasn’t acceptable to you. Instead, you doubled down on your argument by coming up with other reasons to back up your opinion.
I actually feel as though you tightened your own defenses in response to my post detailing why I was irritated when you said I was ‘allergic to primal’. I even fully explained why our approaches are different (namely you go for the jugular questions prematurely when I said a subtle approach is better, at least for me).
But you say you can’t get through to me. I think there is an argument for the other way around as well,
I just think we are at ‘loggerheads’ here/
Sylvia – your comments are true and helpful!
Thank you, Leslie.
My comments are also true and helpful, and MY opinion is JUST as important as Leslie’s.
Are they though?
Most definitely!
?
The general impression I hold here is that Leslie does not like me very much, so I feel she will back up anyone who is disagreeing with me. Naturally Barry will back her up, which furthers my own sense of isolation and so forth,.
Yes it does seem you suffer immensely from a sense of isolation UG. I suspect most of us wish we could help you, but it does seem like you’ll have none of that.
Oh geez, OK, Look, I’m not beyond asking for help. That’s not the point at all here for yesterday and today. All I was doing was explaining why a particular comment from Sylvia irritated me. We had a back and forth about it, and somehow there was this smugness that Sylvia (and perhaps yourself) are on a higher, more feelingful Primal plane than poor little old Guru. It really feels like a highly patronizing setup.
I appreciate when people want to help others, really I do, but how does this ‘patronizing helpfulness’ theme become interspersed with my original irritation with Sylvia?
If I need help I will make sure to ask for it.
Fair enough.
Guru, most of the time you seem to be so avoidant of your feelings,
and I wonder if that is what irritates Sylvia.
Phil
Phil, I hate to say it this way because it’s going to sound so hostile (in the way I present it) and I have nothing against you personally.
“Most of the time you seem so avoidant of your feelings” is such a bullshit non-falsifiable statement which can never be objectively satisfied, and in which the optimal goalposts can always be moved.
I have 1 feeling, but I was so avoidant of the 4 other feelings.
I have 8 feelings, but I was so avoidant of the 13 other feelings
I have 27,562,219 feelings, but I was so avoidant of 18,9993,201,334 other feelings and so on.
It will never end because the statement is never objectively falisifiable. Only you can be subjectively satisfied with my feelings performance and the goalposts can be moved virtually forever until you finally find it satisfactory and that statement is put away for good.
(typo)…objectively falsifiable
Aside from that HUGE objective falsifiability and subjective satisfaction problem, I still often have to decide whether to press ahead with a certain feeling out of concern for my own personal daily functioning and/or whether I am doing debilitative harm to others.
I am concerned at this point as to whether I went too far where Sylvia is concerned because of her mentioning the birth trauma. Assuming the validity of the concept, this raises the specter of out-of-sequence pains causing further problems I didn’t intend to contribute to. So anyway I hope she is OK even if she hates me for a lifetime now regardless.
In other words I wasn’t out to be a ‘wrecking ball’, and all of what has occurred has left me feeling as though that is what happened anyway.
Guru, I’m glad you’re staying with this discussion because you seem to usually bow out with some excuse. That’s what I’m talking about. I’m not even sure if you hope to make progress with primal or not. It’s hard to tell. I’m sure we all have our different ways of avoiding feelings.
Phil
I am ok, Guru, but I don’t think I can help you, not that you asked to be helped. I don’t want to hurt anyone either or cause out-of-sequence pains. I did think the other day you had a good insight about projecting after the election about needing stimulation after a let down surrounding the drama of the later capitol invasion. So you do feel. It’s just some things we don’t and won’t see eye to eye about. I do wish you well, with your therapy and your work. It’s best we do not “get into it” anymore. I think I’ve said my piece about things that I have wanted to for a while. I do hope you find your way that is comfortable to you.
S
Sylvia, you are far more than ok. You are insightful, empathetic, truthful and supportive. In fact I think you might have been Gretchen in a former life. Please don’t feel bad about not being able to help the ‘G’ man, Joshua could have blown his horn for weeks on end and not put a crack in those defensive walls. I think it was Kennedy who said, “Ask not why Sylvia is so frustrated with Guru, ask instead what took her so bloody long.”
Barry
Thank you for your support, Barry, jokingly, though some of it is. I know how joking can get one in trouble, or at least into a long conversation. Nice to see you and Leslie on the blog again.
This sounds comes across as really mean-spirited and cruel, Barry.
So much for the empathy of supposed post-Primal patients huh?
And to think all this started with talking about love for pets. Or maybe simply with love. On that I was wandering why the discussion stops at pets and doesn’t move on to people, going the Larry way and looking for love among other human beings (great news Larry and good luck with you girlfriend).
I have a dog these days and had cats before. They bring all kinds of joy and nuisance. Like humans do. But I feel for Guru when he intimates that a pet carries with it the risk of a heartbreak, for him perhaps one heartbreak too many.
Hey Daniel, long time ‘no relate to’. How are things where you are in these Covid times?
Barry
p.s. Larry, that is just awesome news! Congrats on your new relationship. You have our address if you’re ever out this way. We’d love to meet your ‘cheri amour’.
Just make sure inter-provincial travel is permitted, and… ‘Oh, wear a triple layer mask and keep six feet away from us.’ Won’t that be fun!!
I’m getting really tired of Covid
Barry
We already talked about driving out.there..maybe this summer?…to visit her relatives and my friends (ie.you and Leslie). Maybe we’d all have our shots by then.
It will probably be June before I’m offered the vaccine. Hang in there Barry.
You’re actually friends with this asshole? Jesus.
Can’t help it UG. Barry is a caring, much appreciated by most people, imperfect (thank goodness) human being struggling with his own demons as we all are on this blog, who I’m glad to have as a friend. If you feel slighted it might be to your benefit to take it up with him.
So the bottom line is you don’t give a shit whether I was treated badly by him, then?
You can fight your demons without being a total prick shithead, too.
I don’t see that you were treated badly. Knowing you I could see how you probably would get pissed by what he said. if you have a strong issue with him I see that you should take it up with him.
Hi Barry, I’m two weeks after being inoculated with the second and final portion of the Pfizer vaccine. It means I reached maximum antibody status. So has my wife. My 19 yo daughter received her first shot a few days ago. In our extended family all those over 50 were also vaccinated and the younger ones are being vaccinated these days, except those under 16 (my son for example).
All in all, we fared reasonably well in this pandemic so far. Initially I lost about 15% of my patients, but slowly most of them came back. My classes moved mostly to Zoom which went pretty smoothly (I bought some equipment to improve the quality of the Zoom sessions). My wife, who has a position in a university and works also for a Chinese firm luckily wasn’t harmed and like me worked from home. Since we also reduced our expenses considerably – no vacations, no restaurants, no movies or theatre, nowhere to drive to – we are doing alright.
As for me – I need very little and staying home most of the time is fine with me. I walk the dog, shop for groceries, and making all sorts of plans to do things around the house, mostly fixing and improving. I cook and bake bread and feel my life is pretty full. It’s more difficult for my wife who is climbing the walls (and me) every now and then. However, we do feel safer after being vaccinated, hoping it all will work out as expected for us and the entire world.
I hope all is well for you and Leslie in these crazy, inhospitable times.
Ugg, I agree with you that Barry was being an asshole to you. I also agree that post-primal people (if they even exist) can lack empathy at times. And I think many of the comments to you have been quite hurtful. But I have a question. I think it’s probably a stupid question, but I’ll let you decide if it is or isn’t. In Sylvia’s original comment to you she said a few things that I thought were actually quite accurate, such as your stuckness around the “same blame and hatred for the media, the car industry, the rich fat cats that run things”. I’m wondering if every part of you is self-protection mode now (as your comments would suggest) or if there is a part of you that wishes you could be more open and vulnerable around your feelings of stuckness.
Renee your questions require a ton of unpacking. They’re not stupid, but I only have the capability to address the last sentence you wrote. The self-protection/vulnerability part? Do you remember our discussion from a week or two ago where I said I would only discuss certain things off the blog? I forgot exactly what you asked me given the emotional wringer I’ve gone though on this blog since then, but I will refer you to my old answer of balancing what to talk about here and off the blog. I think you approved of my setting boundaries, etc.
As for the “stuck on media/cars/rich fat cats” that demand much more complexity I am not ready to take on yet. From a purely provisional sense Sylvia might have a point, but from a moral and/or anthropological view I would disagree. Delving into all the reasons why is too big of a project this morning.
Sylvia,
I really like the way you stood your ground, strong and gracefully at the same time.
Guru, I agree with Sylvia you miss out on a lot by not wanting a pet, but on the other hand it is better not to take one if you would not take care well of it.
I found it very disappointing when you wrote about the cat on your porch and you did nothing to make friends with him or her seemingly.
no food or water, did you try to stroke it at all?
of course you are free to be what you are, but it is very different than my own state of mind. it takes all kinds of course.
M
I don’t interpret Sylvia’s actions that way at all. I am more in agreement with Renee. That cat story from my porch? That was years ago and it was only around 2-3 days. I had no experience with feeding it or knowing what I should do with it at the time. It’s long gone.
I’m not a pet person either really, and don’t see that as mandatory. They are a big responsibility and aren’t people, although often treated that way. We can’t keep pets at our house because my wife feels they belong outside, which was her experience in childhood as her parents were farmers. Our kids did have some small pets.
Lately though, we’ve been getting involved with a herd of goats and sheep which are kept nearby in our neighborhood. We bring them our kitchen scraps, which they love, and help sometimes with bringing out bales of hay. The owner keeps them as pets, but doesn’t do a good job with upkeep, and he doesn’t live in the neighborhood himself. For one thing, they are reproducing out of control.. In the last few weeks 4 lambs have been born, and 3 baby goats. I have been impressed with how intelligent goats seem to be. It would be nice to have our own, and they could trim the grass and bushes, as well as fertilize the lawn, and would be fine staying outside, but I doubt that will be happening.
Phil
I think it’s time for me to take a sabbatical from the blog.
Thank you Renee and Phil for your varying levels of support.
My new favorites list:
Renee
Phil
Otto
Margaret
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Larry
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.Barry
I hope you’ll reconsider. Don’t leave us without a Guru.
Phil
Phil, why do you feel that we cannot be left without a Guru? Doesn’t the slow trudge from being primal to being post-primal involve letting go of the need for a Guru/God/Daddy?
Here is Guru Janov explaining how he taught this lesson to John Lennon who subsequently turned it into a beautiful work of art/poetry:
Renee, what about John Lennon, was he a guru himself? I was talking about our self proclaimed blog Guru.
Phil
Good question, Phil. It’s too bad John Lennon is not alive today or you could ask him yourself. I’m pretty sure he would’ve said no because he thought we should become our own gurus. His song “Serve Yourself” was about this subject. I tend to think that who we see as a guru and who claims to be a guru are very subjective. I know I saw him as a guru when I was younger. I believe that anyone who claims to be a guru, regardless of whether they do so on our blog, another blog, or on no blog, is a charlatan with a huge narcissistic wound, due to childhood trauma. Of course, this doesn’t mean that they can’t still be lovable. 😊
As hard as it might be to believe, I have an autographed picture of Ringo Starr from the 1980’s in storage. It was sent to me upon request when I was in middle school as a project. No, it’s not a rubber stamp…it’s real scribbling. I also found it interesting that Ringo is wearing a shirt with a cross five minutes into the video. He and John might have had some disagreements, it seems.
That was nice he sent you that. I get emails direct from Joe Biden. He always wants money, which I don’t understand. He can now print as much as he wants. As an aside, I think John Lennon took LSD too many times.
Phil
I forgot to put Daniel up there somewhere between Phil and Otto or thereabouts, sorry!
Where does Bernadette go?
Yeah, looks like I’ve fallen out of favor, too. Out of sight, out of mind, maybe. Guru, you’re too isolated out there in the boonies. I have a little different perspective, in that I do remember you from long ago, when you were actually here for therapy for just a very few months, as we were in group together, but it was barely enough time for you to get your primal toes wet. When you left therapy, you were supposed to come back “soon”, but the money never happened, for you to do so. But my impression of you in that group was that you seemed overwhelmed pretty much all the time, you had a deer-in-the-headlights look. I thought your feelings must be racing around in your mind, often as intellectual distortions, trying to keep the real feelings at bay, and hence keeping you unaware. I could relate to that feeling myself (from early in my therapy, and early in my life). I said a little of this, when we used to talk on the phone for a few months, after you left therapy.
But besides a lack of money, I also think that your “chronic primal fear”, which is always waiting to erupt, has worked hand-in-hand with your automatic intellectual defenses to keep you from ever coming back. Many of us need steady, ongoing therapy, so that gradually and eventually, those ingrained and protective defenses, can have an opportunity to be felt and dissolve, and be needed no more. And I think you were not in therapy long enough to get the experience and confidence that it really works for you, except in theory. I think that if you had that real experience and confidence, you would have been determined to get back here, and found a way to do it. Because that didn’t happen, I have doubt that it’s what you really want. Maybe you even agree.
Furthermore, even if you can’t be here in person, there are things you could be doing, to further your own Primal Therapy, from the isolated boonies. This blog is really operating like a milder version of an in-person “Primal Group”. But if most specific questions asked of you, make you feel that “it’s too much”, or “too complicated” or you’re “too busy with other problems in your life” to ever respond vulnerably — then maybe you’re not yet ready to participate in Primal Therapy. That may just really be true, for now, or for ever.
You have told us about the loss of your mom, very early in your life, but while you tell us about the travesty of highway traffic accidents, and that you were abandoned except by your father, and how you would be so much better off financially had she lived — you don’t actually slow down and write about all the details of that trauma, the accident itself, what you knew or didn’t know, when you learned all the details, how it affected you emotionally when you learned she was gone forever, and how your feelings evolved growing up. I don’t even know if you allow yourself to feel whatever feelings do come up for you, about all that trauma. Unless I’ve somehow missed it, I don’t think you’ve expressed anything about those nuances here.
For any of us in therapy, that is the kind of whole traumatic detail, as much time taken as necessary, that we get into telling someone about, in order to fully get into the feelings attached to the trauma. It takes slowing down with the details, not avoiding them. I have never seen you be willing to do that on any subject or question that comes up. Your brain seems to be racing so much, to find another quick way to get away from your feelings. I get the feeling that you feel you “can’t get into it”, from feeling too vulnerable from others, or maybe wanting to hide some feelings from yourself — not being a mind-reader, I am not quite sure, but just guessing that’s likely what’s going on.
You actually do express more of some of your feelings, I have seen progress over the years. You are better able to say when something angers you, and stand up for yourself. Yet the changes seem so subtle, that I end up wondering if I’m just imagining it. I was thinking maybe you can better handle some of the normal give-and-take that occurs in relating to people. — Until the name-calling erupted from you, over your apparently feeling hurt that someone could dare be friends with someone else you now need to hate, along with everyone else who likes that person, too — as if you’re convinced no one likes you, so you hate them all. It feels like we are in the midst of feelings from preschool. Maybe you need to feel that “mad” until you no longer feel it, and then maybe try a different approach to “standing up for yourself” and relating. I am not being flip or jokey about this, I am just hoping you may understand what I’m saying, since I don’t actually know how you’re feeling at the moment.
Vicki, I do have some money floating around…but overall the situation is looking grim for me and my long term survival is a serious questions. So yeah I am scared as fuck about that and I am failing to turn things around to something successful.
Thanks for your heartfelt post though. I know you poured everything you could out there as sincerely as you could. Gretchen is wrong about the ‘controlling the narrative’ part. I don’t want my life to be a public peepshow. Doesn’t that make any sense at all?
Plenty of other things to be said…but I have a headache. And having to revisit these past couple days is brain aneurysm material for me
I’m also upset that I violated a promise to myself not to come back here, but upon reading what Gretchen and Vicki had to say it was too heart-tugging to say “no” to it. That’s the only reason I bothered to come back.
Guru, your life is not “a public peepshow” if you take the risk of saying some personal things about your feelings and traumas (like your mom’s death). “Peepshow” usually applies to things that might be pornographically intimate, so it doesn’t seem like an accurate description of much of your life that you avoid talking about here. Or if you are too afraid of something, then at least write more about why you are afraid to be vulnerable. Take some risk. Otherwise, why are you even here? It’s a Primal blog, feelings are what we do.
Unless, for you, it’s really just a social vehicle, a way to have friends and interact, without the risk of feelings. Sometimes I get the feeling you’re kind of like a little kid going, “Hi, do you like me, huh, huh?” And if they like you, you’re happy, nothing more is necessary, you don’t need any therapy to be that happy. And if something hurts, you feel they don’t like you, it’s all over, you’re so unhappy you feel like “going away forever” — or at least until someone makes you feel better again. That doesn’t give you much of a strong emotional core. It leaves you not very grounded. But maybe that’s what you’re familiar with, and used to, and that’s enough for you in life. Think about whether you want to grow beyond that, or maybe not. I’m not seeing any real indication that you want anything more than the relief of acceptance, however superficial.
Let’s not resort to calling people assholes, pricks or shitheads. It makes more sense to speak specifically about what they said that upset us. I think Barry WAS showing empathy but in this case it was focused on Sylvia. Sylvia offers so much support to everyone here and this was the first time she had taken the time to express how something was making her feel. Also this feedback is not a revelation to you Guru. You have heard this before. Personally I don’t think there is some magical way to ask you about these issues that will allow you to answer. At this point you don’t choose to which is your right. I have noted that you have recently been asking people to contact you privately in what appears to be your way of controlling how others might react to you. I don’t think it’s really about boundaries in this case but rather, I fear, about further isolation. Still, I do have concerns that you work very hard at controlling the narrative. I do feel for you that you have the need to do that . You have the right to avoid whatever you choose to avoid but this is a Primal blog with perceptive people likely to notice and comment. You know that. By the way there is nothing wrong with directly expressing anger. I think there can be judgement about what are the good feelings and what are the bad feelings. Anger is not a “ bad” feeling but just another feeling that needs expression as directly as possible . Gretchen
“I think Barry WAS showing empathy but in this case it was focused on Sylvia.”
Indeed, and I remember the days when Hannibal Lecter was empathetic towards Clarice Starling. Those are special moments, aren’t they?
If people are off your favorites list when they say something you don’t like it might leave those on the favorite list a little less than cozy and safe. G.
I did completely forget about putting Vicki and Bernadette on my list. I was so infuriated at what occurred I wasn’t cognitively placing everything needed together correctly. I also installed a picket fence with padlocked gate to keep the favored people cozy and safe even if an errant word is said. I left Gretchen and Daniel outside the gate to keep them on their toes and will assign them gatekeeper privileges. The list is dynamic and Daniel slipped a few notches, but is still capable of full rehabilitation.
Bernadette
Vicki
Renee
Phil
Otto
Margaret
|====|=====|====|====|====|===|——–p——-|====|====|====|====|====|====|====|
Gretchen
Daniel
Sylvia
(other scattered beings far, far away)
Yuck, that’s a bad fence. Terrible, so I’ll improvise and consider it a doubly protective fence.
Wading in here through the mire – Ugg, you appear to be setting yourself up even more for self isolation..or is it toddler-speak? Your need for attention is boundless.
Jo, no I was just fooling around..maybe it was toddler-speak. Sorry to forget your inclusion to my gated community, but I will include you as an honorary member. I’m done with all this now.
Jo, you’re absolutely right about the enormous clutter I am having everyone wade through on the blog. I would be more than happy to message individual people without burdening 80 subscribers who are uninvolved with what I am thinking or feeling.
So it’s not quite that I am “WAH WAH WAH, I WANT ATTENTION!” in an infantile way, but how would I contact Vicki privately with my thoughts when she is addressing me?
My only immediate option is to write here on the blog, but then I also face Gretchen who says, “Why would you want to write privately? You’re trying to control the narrative.”
So I am in a bad Catch-22
a) Leave a lot of crap on the blog that’s irrelevant to most because it’s a challenge trying to contact people privately or,
b) Do contact others privately and be facing concerns that I am controlling a narrative
My own stream of consciousness has a bad habit of emerging in little dribs and drabs rather than one long flowing post. I can sense the rudeness of formatting it that way and I am apologetic about it.
I think a VBulletin message board would be a MUCH better option for organizing peoples’ public thoughts.
Word Press sucks for organizational purposes,
A VBulletin forum board would simply collate all my little posts in a forum thread such as “Guru’s Corner” where 98% of everyone could safely ignore and the few who happened to show interest could stop by and post responses. A forum thread format instantly cleans up the clutter and gives the viewer total freedom to cherry pick which topics to respond to while ignoring everything else.
Yes, first time setup would be a pain in the ass….but it would solve a lot of these aforementioned problems.
Guru,
I don’t think there’s an issue about your posts being relevant. We can read or ignore them as we choose, but you can imagine that everyone is reading them and might respond.
Or we can complain, as I remember doing about Jack’s repetitive posts on his theories.
Phil
I was going to post yesterday that I really do miss Jack sometimes. Irritating as hell sometimes, yet comforting at other times. I do feel sad that he’s gone and I cry about that a little this morning as well.
I’m dropping faster than GameStop
Ha-ha Daniel! That’s why I don’t mind starting on the bottom, only one way to go and all that. It will of course be a Herculean task, and one that I may very well not be up to, but hey, even Beta-Max made a comeback of sorts.
Barry
Larry, thanks so much for your kind words, I was touched. Looking forward to seeing you both when we all can do so safely. I hope for June vaccination too, but think it might be optimistic unfortunately.
Barry
For now let’s keep 1200 miles apart, maybe toss the masks. 🙂
Daniel, congratulations on having had your vaccinations already, your country’s roll out is impressive. I am green with envy. Canada’s population and more importantly it’s size means we will be waiting probably until the summer for our immunizations, especially with the slow down in exports from Europe since we don’t manufacture any in Canada yet.
Glad to hear how well you are managing and hope your wife’s wall climbing doesn’t leave marks!
Leslie and I are both retired now, so work hasn’t been an issue for us. Of course we miss getting together with family and friends – one of our two sons lives in Switzerland and so we have been unable to see him for over a year now. Thank goodness for Skype etc. Our other son has a new girlfriend of 6 mos. & we’ve only seen her with a mask outside.
Our saving grace is that we live in an area with lots of trails and beautiful walks.
You bake bread huh, well you’ve got me there, but I’d love to go head to head with you on my chili recipe. 🙂
Stay safe,
Barry
Vicki – Your post is amazing! Can only imagine how much time and care you put into it.
And this at what has been such an incredibly busy time for you. There is so much said,
so much honesty and insight along with a kind, helping hand extended.
L
Vicki, I too would like to say how impressed I am with the time, effort and content that you put into your post yesterday. It shows a caring and concern that you and Sylvia especially, but most of the people on this Blog also to a large extent, express for each other. That’s as it should be, since we almost all have done years of therapy and are emotionally aware. We recognize truth, honesty, avoidance etc., and alarm bells go off when people are not being real. What you, Sylvia, Jo, Margaret, Gretchen ‘et al’ have that I am lacking is, as far as I’m concerned, an overabundance of patience.
One of my considerable number of imperfections (thanks Larry 🙂 that I have recognized since I was a young adult teaching swimming and tutoring math students was a noticeable
annoyance if he or she didn’t understand what I was trying to teach. I’ve demonstrated the swim-stroke three times, or what is it about the Pythagorean theorem that you just don’t get? It got my blood pressure up so much that I was aware very early on that being a teacher just wasn’t in the cards.
This is probably why, Guru, that after what feels like years of Primal Therapy survivors listening to you, being sympathetic to you, offering sage and helpful advice, and then,
through your inability because of your primal pain, being ignored due to an onset of headaches or potential brain aneurisms, it just drove me up the wall. Hence my sarcastic reference to you when I was being supportive to Sylvia. I SO related to her frustration.
Humour is my thing, it’s what I do to be liked. Surely though there’s a little of that with you, too, ‘Gated community’? At least I hope it’s humour.
For the sake of easing up on the mire that I/we have created, let me say that I apologize for the distress that I have caused you. I did not foresee how much you would be affected.
I’ve had visuals of you frothing at the mouth, which I would not want to be the cause of in even my worst enemy, which, as I have said before you are far from being. I don’t apologize for feeling the way I do, it’s part of my being, but I never intentionally set out to hurt anyone.
Let’s just agree to ease up on the sarcasm and name calling for the sake of everyone else.
Barry
Thanks, Leslie and Barry. I don’t give up easily, when I have something to say. But that comes with knowing ahead of time, that the other person may not be able to really get the point. So I have to accept that before I start, do my best, and let the chips fall where they may. And then I don’t keep trying to get a dead horse to rise up and run, or walk.
And that’s a generous and vulnerable apology, Barry. 🙂
–I read everything from Vicki (two posts) and Barry (one)
–If Barry and Sylvia had their interaction without Renee commenting on it, I likely would have been OK. Pissed off, surely, but OK in the sense I wouldn’t have become completely emotionally ‘blown up’ these past two days
–However, with Renee throwing in the commentary of how cruel and mean spirited it was, that opened up a whole new area of outrage
–It was as though Renee suddenly came in as a protective ‘mother’ I never understood could possibly exist
–Isn’t that the loving mother’s first inclination? To protect their boys from bullies? To validate a hurt little boy’s reality?
So yeah that was a bad situation for me
My brain had a bit of a meltdown after the confluence of all those events.
I have a lot of responses for Vicki, but right now I have to rest.
As grudgingly hard as it is for me, I will accept Barry’s apology…and so with that I will apologize for name calling.
I can’t write any more right now. Too much drama to manage
Vicki, I’m impressed with all the things you’ve said, and Barry too, with how you put your apology to Guru.
Phil
I had feelings tonight related to bad memories of my father I’ve recently started connecting with. What’s interesting is it feels like another way my mother abandoned me, another big episode, being left with him, which ended up opening earlier instances in more depth. I’m expecting more of it to be about my father, or maybe I shouldn’t expect anything, but that’s hard for me to do.
Phil
Vicki, there’s just no fucking way I can respond to your post which you put so much painstaking effort into right now. I am going to be in serious need of rest and reconstruction.
For about 24-36 hours I was angry at Barry at an utterly deranged level fueled by Renee’s ‘motherly’ protection. Also lashing out, as you said, at Barry’s buddy Larry. I was hoping Larry would ‘come to my rescue’ by criticizing Barry and being a protector like Renee did, but when that failed Larry was sent to the doghouse.
Now I am simply exhausted and hardly able to do anything.
Vicki, I was at the Institute for almost eight months.
I do have a lot to say about my ‘deer in the headlights’ look from being anxious and overwhelmed.
A lot of this was due to being an apartment renter instead if a Proposition 13 advantaged homeowner. When you’ve lived in California for multiple generations in the same home, that’s an ENORMOUS advantage over an anxious greenhorn travelling thousands of miles to throw money down the apartment rental toilet with no home equity being built.
During the last week or two while I was staying in a dilapidated apartment I saw a huge rat climb outside my kitchen window and onto the nearby cable wires (I talked to Gretchen about this in a private session before I left).
That was a breaking point for me which, among other things, convinced me to go back home, lots more to talk about there,
I’m trying to recover by writing more, so there’s a start
But you’re absolutely right though, Vicki, I was overwhelmed but as I implied above I was not overwhelmed entirely due to feelings.
Sometimes I will have a bad feeling hang around, hang around, never leaving me day after day after day with no resolution or letup. That’s when I start looking into other causes and also when I am most vulnerable to self-destructive behavior.
My brain is seriously mush right now and I want to meditate by this little candle.
The house I sit in would easily command $1 million or more in LA. Why would I want to go to LA with all the stress, pain, super hard work 100 hours per week just to buy another house (eventually) like this one when I can just run back home now and talk to you on the blog? Isn’t it easier and more fun that way?
The Zoom group thingy should be a decent boon for Primal Inst. and Art’s Center, I would imagine. Makes things so much easier instead of having people uproot their entire lives to run to a therapy clinic thousands of miles away from home. Thankfully that burden should become outdated over time, if not already.
Guru,
Phone sessions can also work well for therapy, they do for me, and that’s been offered
for years.
Phil, Mark once told me of a concept called ‘therapy shape’ which I take it to mean being in a ‘Primal groove’. I used to do phone sessions with Gretchen and Mark a long time ago when they were a bit more effective. Now that I’ve been away for a long time, phoning likely wouldn’t work so well without starting a 3-week intensive all over again. I’ve been out of ‘therapy shape’ too long.
It would be like what Vicki said here which left me laughing uproariously, “Hi Hi. do you like me, huh huh?” Best laugh I had in weeks there.
So bottom line is either make sure I have Blue Cross insurance or work to gather another big pile of money somewhere to go all in for more therapy (an extended program of sessions clustered together).
Guru,
Retreats are good too For me I think they’re better than an intensive would be. Housing is included in the cost and it’s basically therapy around the clock for the length of the retreat.
You write on the blog, we have emailed, and spoken by phone at least once. I’d like to see you to really know who you are. That’s possible on Zoom too, of course. Hopefully Covid will be controlled sometime this year and retreats will happen again.
Phil
We’ll see what happens, Phil. Man, I’m just having so much trouble keeping up with daily life chores anymore. One thing after another after another after another after another….and I’m valuing my time simply laying down in a bare room with a candle without the ridiculous hypercomplexities of life more and more.
I get triggered into trying to be helpful; you’ll decide what you want to do. I think the recent exchanges on the blog have been interesting and good, but not so good, I guess, all the things said which made you upset.
Ugg, I wanted to respond to this comment of yours: “It was as though Renee suddenly came in as a protective ‘mother’ I never understood could possibly exist––Isn’t that the loving mother’s first inclination? To protect their boys from bullies? To validate a hurt little boy’s reality?” I am fine if you see me as a protective mother. However, I do not see myself that way. I have no interest or need to protect you. The reason I have spoken out in regard to some of the comments you have received is so that I can live with myself. One of main things I remembered in my therapy was the pain of what it felt like to be bullied in my family and to have no-one validate my reality. (I had forgotten about this before entering therapy.) As a result, I feel that I have a responsibility to speak up when I see this kind of abuse happening to others. Along with having a responsibility to notice when I am feeling the urge to bully someone and catch myself. If I can’t stop myself, I need to take responsibility for my hurtful words and make amends. All of these things are a continual work-in-progress for me.
I believe that many of the people I have seen bullying you here on the blog were survivors of bullying themselves, inside and/or outside their families. And I see them bullying you and justifying it under the guise of “giving you honest feedback” and “trying to help you”. To me, these are just excuses to pass on the emotional abuse they received and get some temporary relief at your expense. It is absolutely not okay and if I don’t say something, then I become complicit. And I am left feeling like I learned nothing from years of therapy. Not a good feeling.
That said, I am curious about your questions that came after you said you see me as protective mother: “Isn’t that the loving mother’s first inclination? To protect their boys from bullies? To validate a hurt little boy’s reality?” How would you answer these questions with regard to your own mother and her ability to protect you from bullies and validate your reality?
Renee, your post is going to take a lot more work to address than Phil’s recent post. By the way, intellectually I *perfectly* understood immediately that you were only trying to give your impartial judgement of the situation and that you were not trying to protect me on an adult level. My emotional limbic system interpreted it differently and you suddenly became a protective mother while I hunted down Larry to become my ‘father’ so you and he could team up, be my surrogate parents from when I was a needy two year-old, and defeat evil Barry.
Laughably deranged, I know, but it seriously has taken me 2-3 days of rest to recuperate from it.
I have more errands to work out, so will try to get back here soon.
I also owe Larry an apology for being an asshole to him. A starting explanation for him is in my previous post to Renee,
I appreciate your insight UG. Can’t say I enjoyed being off your list. Glad that’s over.
Renee, OK I finished a few more external items & want to address your comment about standing up and calling out bullies. As we know from years on the blog there was a huge problem amongst many with P. (if you know who I am talking about, all you need is a first letter) along with scattered complaints about me not calling him out. Personally I did feel as though I called him out several times and people overlooked that, but I also felt a more aggressive effort would incur his wrath at the time and soon I would be a target, too….sending me into some crisis I can’t easily handle just as what happened with Barry and Sylvia.
So I just wanted to emphasize the conflict here between personal sense of safety and the duty to call out bullying so as to not be complicit, as you said.
Not that anything in the Primal-sphere is remotely close to the hazardous bullying levels of working for the Mafia, Mexican cartels, or Vladimir Putin, there’s a reason they kill witnesses.
Your final questions about mother and your earlier question one about being ‘stuck’ on media/rich fat cats, etc. are all acknowledged as not having been adequately answered yet,
You, Bernadette, and Gretchen all have asked me wondrously great questions requiring full-time work answering every single one in needed detail. What’s the starting salary for a full-time question answerer, $40,000/year or so?”
Between you, Gretchen, and Bernadette I think I have a backlog of 500 unanswered questions I could eventually answer with enough time and effort, but then the lights in my house would be disconnected and the internet service shut off due to unpaid bills, negating my ability to answer further questions.
Ugg, all these six posts of yours were exhausting for me to read. I could only find one real thing in all of them, namely that you wish you could call out bullying more but you’re scared to. Correct me if I’m wrong, but it seems that everything else is deflection and avoidance. If you’re not comfortable answering any questions, it’s okay to just say so. I was going to suggest that I think you’re the king of deflection but I then I realized that this song is perhaps more appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tFN5DveQH0o. What song would you say best characterizes your communication style here on the blog?
Renee, one of the six posts was addressed to Phil (candle) and another was addressed to Larry (apology). Another tried to give a clear synopsis of exactly what happened between you, Barry, Sylvia, and myself.
So that leaves three posts of potentially extraneous material, in which I was mostly joking about how extremely difficult some of the questions you, Gretchen, and Bernadette have asked me. Now mind you, they are GOOD questions, but they force me to dig DEEP into my brain’s reservoirs to give you QUALITY answers.
In order to make the QUALITY answers most people desire I have to lubricate my thought processes with some seriously lengthy reflections which may seem irrelevant at first glance.
I don’t want to be the King of Pain. Applying that title to myself would be hugely egotistical and self-destructive in my view.
Your question about which song applying to my blog style is also a HUGE toughie with millions of songs to try to pick from. Can you appreciate what a daunting challenge that would be? I can tell you that my posts tend to be short and sweet in recent years because I am a Twitter addict & I tend to replicate the fast, short response style of tweets rather than the long flowing passages of Janov or other bloggers here (this post being a notable exception to the rule).
I will only give you a song which can help put my brain at ease once in a while. Maybe with a candle as I said to Phil.
There needs to be an important distinction made between a question being Primally uncomfortable and a question that takes a LOT of work and soul-searching to answer.
“How many red dwarf stars are there in the universe?” would make me feel uncomfortable and evasive in answering due to the burdensome amount of work in answering, and not because of emotional distress in general.
This is a beautiful song, Ugg! I like it. As to your question, ““How many red dwarf stars are there in the universe?”, I found the answer very quickly from a Google search. There are around 300 billion stars in our galaxy, the Milky Way. Approximately three quarters of these stars are red dwarfs. And there around 125 billion galaxies in the universe. Then it becomes a simple math question…..for people who find math simple (I am not one of them). Although, the proportion of red dwarfs is higher in galaxies other than ours. But only in Elliptical galaxies. Our galaxy is a spiral galaxy. Interesting stuff!
Renee and Ug, you both irritate me with what I regard as taking minutiae to the extreme, so I generally have to skim your posts. I’m capable of minutiae myself when eg talking to G, B or a friend, which usually means I’m anxious.
Renee, surely you realise Ug struggles, gets anxious and gets bogged down with feeling he has to explain/answer questions, so I wonder why you have asked him yet another question?
Jo did you read my post from yesterday about how vBulletin message boards would eliminate this problem? Just curious,are you familiar with using a message board format?
I appreciate your perspective, Jo. I had not considered what you are suggesting here…..that it’s not simply avoidance/deflection but rather anxiety/overwhelm, maybe both. To answer your question, I ask questions because I am curious. When you read stuff, do you not sometimes become curious? Or do you choose to keep your curiosity to yourself rather than share it? Btw, If these questions seem like minutiae to you and make you anxious, feel free to skim/ignore them.
Ug, yes I did and yes I am. A straightforward flow rather than branching off is preferable, You’d be setting yourself up as isolating, and I wouldn’t want that for you.
enee,
I also find our cosmos extremely fascinating, the vastness of the galaxies and then the incredible number of them containing each one incredible numbers of stars, with more incredible numbers of planets possibly surrounding the…..
it is mind boggling, and consoling at the same time for me, so much out there we know nothing about, so much to discover still, so many other worlds…
which also makes me think of something else.
we suddenly will be getting an extreme cold period here, with loads of snow and day and night deep freezing temperatures.
in combination with Corona it kind of creates a bit of a postapocalyptic atmosphere which also makes everything feel kind of relative to me, it gives me a feeling of the temporarity and transience of everything, all we can do really is make the best of our life and for others around us on this very moment. the future is always uncertain, a surprise, not a bad thing necessarily.
there is also a feeling of consolation in that for me, we cannot control everything, but have to accept and make the best of what is right there now.
which does not imply we have not to care for our planet and its future, everyone’s future really.
just some passing thoughts on a quiet winter day…
M
Margaret and Renee,
I find the vastness of outer space too much to comprehend and imagine. I think there’s yet to be a sci-fi movie which really gets it right. They necessarily make it relatable by putting it on a human scale. I prefer to stay down here on earth.
Phil
Phil, I also prefer to stay down here on earth. I can’t speak for you, Margaret, but I’m assuming you do too. On the other hand, if we’ve never stayed anywhere else but earth, how could we possibly know where we prefer?
“2001: A Space Odyssey” probably came the closest.
‘Also Sprach Zarathustra’ – what a song!!! Hard to dance to though.
Barry M
Phil,
I regulary have dreams in which splendid starry skies appear, which I gaze at and admire.
recently I had one in which I asked a girlfriend if she also perceived some dusty clusters as reddish, ot which she agreed.
in another dream I pointed at the Pleiades and spoke about how intriguing they look.
one dream I had years ago stood out, I was free floating in space, between milky ways and seeing them in a very beautiful and realistic threedimensional way, and felt exhilarated.
always felt intrigued by aliens, and the idea of making contact with them or even meeting them, to the point of sometimes mentally reaching out mentally, like ‘here I am’…
not that it happens often or regularly, smiley just a big curiosity mainly…
M
I liked Vicky’s rich comment very much, both for content and tone. Like most of you I’d like for Guru to be able to “feel his feelings”, past and present. However, I don’t think it’s possible to really feel and/or think the sudden, violent disappearance of a mother at age two. Such a catastrophe cannot be digested, given meaning to, or understood in infancy. The way I dream it the fact that Guru’s father never remarried is testimony that father and son never recovered from the blow. In fact, I think that Guru keeps telling us that this trauma was and is unthinkable, undigestible, and he’s doing it by repeating how arduous and exhausting and mind boggling even a hint of this task – which we keep suggesting, even demanding, he do – is. What is it like? Like counting and grasping “how many red dwarf stars are there in the universe”, a touching and accurate metaphor which, by the way, with all good intentions met again the demanding response – ‘look, it’s just an easy google click away, surely you’re up to it’, as if this was a request for a concrete numerical answer rather than an attempt to communicate some of the incomprehensibility and mind-boggling effect the immensity of the task and the phenomenon itself has on the mind. And Guru has been trying to communicate just this time and again.
I think an undigested loss of a mother in infancy is imprinted into the system, bombards the mind with sensations and proto-feelings, but these are not elaborated (digested) into well-delineated sets of feelings that can be repressed for safekeeping and excavation at a later, safer, time and circumstances. They were never created and therefore cannot be remembered.
To try and make this idea clearer I’ll contrast it to an experience of my own. My mother left me at the hospital when I was seven years old, after she lied to me the night before that she will stay. When I got up in the morning and saw not only she was gone but that her cot, which I was shown the night before to alleviate my fears, wasn’t even set. I went berserk, threw a tantrum, and only came down after staff’s many attempts to appease me, which finally succeeded using a game of mine I had with me. I knew what they were after and eventually swallowed some of my pain and anger.
This was an experience that happened to a verbal child who could make sense of things and already had at his disposal the natural ability to repress. The feelings and ideas repressed were attached to a narrative and to vivid memories, and they were repressed as such.
However, it’s not the full picture. My own experience also included the non-sensical and the, initially, non-digestible, such as why would my mom leave me. Into this hole, this break in the continuity of experiencing, a child who is capable of creating meaning ad-libs: “My mother doesn’t want me”, or “I don’t need mother”, or something similar. Be that as it may, the crucial point for my perspective here is the ability to create meaning, albeit a neurotic one.
It’s a whole different ball game when a mother suddenly disappears when an infant is two years old. Hardly verbal, his ability to create meanings is rudimentary at best. Such a child is still going on being and breaks to that going-on-being are experienced not as pain – with its concomitant narrative, neurotic or not – which can be repressed, but rather as disintegration or dissolution of the self and therefore severe threats to survival itself. Hasn’t Guru been trying to communicate, time and again, his sense of living with constant threats to his survival as well?
If these assumptions are correct, it begs two questions: first, if those imprints reside in the mental system but not as memories repressed complete with feelings and meanings (narrative), how are they expressed? I would suggest that such imprints are alive in the individual’s modes of being and relating which are mostly unknown to the self but are often experienced by others. The second question is, if one cannot fully primal such experiences, what is then to be done? To the best of my knowledge Janov’s implied answer – though in my opinion he was yet to fully develop it – was to physically primal those meaningless sensations and proto-feelings (first line) and then allow the adult part of the mind to create the missing meanings in the present from the primal experience itself (in contrast to already established meanings repressed with the original pain which can now be dug out in a primal).
If this works – and I’m not sure that it does – it’s ingenious and widens the primal from merely a procedure for the excavation of the repressed to a series of steps to create personal meanings, thus constructing the mind itself in a way it wasn’t constructed before.
The other thing is, such a loss can happen, but aren’t there a whole host of other factors which effect how traumatic it is? Other people filling the child’s needs and helping to process the loss at the development stage it happened. I didn’t get much of that, for example. This is part of what is mysterious to the uninformed. Why some people can suffer an early childhood loss or other severe trauma, but seem to turn out OK, and have a happy, healthy life, and others don’t.
Phil
The other thing is, such a loss can happen, but aren’t there a whole host of other factors which effect how traumatic it is? Other people filling the child’s needs and helping to process the loss at the development stage it happened. I didn’t get much of that, for example. This is part of what is mysterious to the uninformed. Why some people can suffer an early childhood loss or other severe trauma, but seem to turn out OK, and have a happy, healthy life, and others don’t. .
Phil
Daniel, Thank-you for this! It will give me a lot to consider and think about. It also resonates with my own feelings, which are often just physical misery without remembered context, but I know they must be very early. In one case, I was just feeling awful and hurt, no idea what it was about, but after feeling that, and intense, gasping howling pushed out of me, and finally crying, at some point, I had the thought that I think my grandmother hit me for peeing while changing my diaper. That had not occurred to me before, and there is no concrete “memory” of it, other than the idea which came to my mind afterwards — so I don’t care about what I can’t “prove”, except that the physical relief from having that feeling is real.
And it’s totally consistent with experiences I had of my mean, scary grandmother when I was old enough to remember, up until age 10, when she died. I had to sleep with her at 5, and she would haul off and kick me in the night, saying that I had moved in the bed and “kicked her”, waking her. And other things happened. I remember telling my mom she was mean, and my mom dismissed it with, like, “Oh, go on! She was good to you, and you loved her.” I remember feeling a little confused, but I did not remember her that way.
This is powerful stuff, Daniel. It makes total sense. I didn’t realize that you were only two when your mother was killed, Ugg. For some reason, I thought you were older. I think it is truism that if we suffer a major trauma at a certain age, emotionally we can stay frozen at that age. This becomes tricky when on a Primal blog and there is an expectation that we can use words to express a coherent narrative about ourselves, our history and our pain. Because if we don’t or can’t meet this expectation, it often leads readers to jump to all kinds of negative judgments and false assumptions about what is going on! Now, Ugg, your list of the safest to most threatening people makes sense. Now, your difficulty and frustration with answering questions about your history and pain makes sense.
Didn’t Otto lose his mother at a younger age than I did? I had a grand uncle who lost his mother at six months of age, but similar to Phil my grand uncle’s mom became gravely ill not long after his birth.
My circumstance was really weird and artificially created by automotive technology. A perfectly healthy 30 year old woman one day, absolutely nothing the next and forever after.
Daniel, I’m adding more to my response to what you said here. I primal the loss of my mother by experiences of not having her and seeing what other people have and imagining how that would be. It’s probably no different than for people who had their mother or father the whole time, but they weren’t 100% there. I recall receiving some kindness from random people at different ages, and that connects me with a feeling of what I should have had. And I did get something, from my sister and grandmother, for example. They weren’t mothers for me, but they connected me with some experience of what I should have gotten from my actual mother, if she would have been well and survived, or someone else who might have fully taken on the role. A stepmother, which I didn’t have. But they were important to me in their own right.
For a complete loss at age two, some motherly type behavior was received after that, otherwise the person wouldn’t have survived. It’s about primalling the deficit, not necessarily fully remembering the traumatic loss in adult way, with thoughts and words. Seeing what it was like to have a healthy mother at ages two and later and primalling the deficit of what wasn’t received from other people, and the loss as a two year old experiences it.
Phil
Daniel, what you say here is very interesting and informative. It makes a lot of sense. I lost my mother too, but since I was older, and it didn’t happen so suddenly, it was different. What is maybe quite similar is that my father didn’t recover from that loss for the rest of his life. I’m not sure if that’s how Guru would describe what happened to his father.
Phil
My credit score is 785. That’s still pretty nice, isn’t it?
No, seriously, I’m going to have to take a while to digest what Daniel explained. He did a wonderful job of it; I even came close to saying to Renee, “I’m not a Google search engine!” Really striking how Daniel hit the nail on the head with that level of understanding.
Maybe another way of explaining it is….if you are shot with a shotgun shell you can only pick out the pellets, or if you are hit with a grenade you can only pick out pieces of shrapnel.
Dad never remarried, no, but he did have several girlfriends throughout the years. He was a tremendously well-liked teddy bear by his school colleagues, friends, girlfriends (I had to field a particularly sad call from one of his ex-girlfriends after his death, she was in tears too), gambling buddies, etc.
Daniel, honestly there’s not much I can say here that will do justice to your brilliantly insightful analysis. All I can do for a while is chew on it and maybe make some additions to it over time.
Gretchen did tell me one time that the feeling IS the memory even if we can’t actually see, hear, or sense a scene. Maybe she was thinking along the same lines as Daniel is with proto-feelings.
I do try to study whatever unpleasant sensations come up in me as much as I can….to feel them and try to make sense of them. A hit or miss proposition for me.
Here’s a sample of the hypercomplexity I struggle with, leaving me wanting to light a candle in the dark sometimes.
https://www.mql5.com/en/articles/3150
(Forget about trying to exploit triangular arbitrage yourself as an individual; large bank traders already have that covered. I have to go in different creative directions…but the raw coding is an overwhelming beast for me. The Russians have me overmatched in this area.)
We’ve come an awfully long way from the simplicity of using cattle or seashells for barter and tally sticks for credit. Sometimes I really have to agree with old Jack that we’ve taken this concept of money just a tad bit too far, too seriously.
Phil, I think that when father doesn’t recover that’s a double whammy for the child, now having to deal not only with loss of mother but also to a degree loss of father, or important aspects of that father.
I also agree with you that theoretically someone can take over the mother’s functions, but that is easier said than done. I would argue that the variance in damage done after losing a mother depends on the one hand the degree of motherly functions somehow preserved by others, and an innate resilience of the child on the other.
Vicky, I think adult cruelty introduced at five years of age is terrible. Having a mean grandmother fells like the stuff of horror stories.
Guru, I couldn’t make head nor tail of triangular arbitrage. But somehow it reminded me something Meyer Lanski, the mob’s money man, once said: “Of all our businesses we make the most from the casinos. And in the casinos we make the most from clients who have a system”.
Triangular arbitrage completely rests on mathematically sound foundations, but the banks already understand this and have had their army of coders and trader hammer out the pricing inefficiencies long ago.
I only posted that link to show the scary reality in today’s world that, if you don’t have your own complex software machines ready for battle, you will have your ass kicked financially.
You’re right, Daniel. I once showed Gretchen a photo of Grandma, and she said, “This woman is angry!” and “It’s like someone out of a horror movie, Hitchcock would have liked her.” She clocked her 7 yr.old daughter in the head with a cast-iron frying pan — her 5 yr.old sister witnessed it, and told me about it 90 yrs. later, still upset about what her mom did. But Grandma was also a family legend for having backed her father (who drank) up against a wall, and told him if he ever laid a hand on her sisters or her mother again, she’d kill him — and they all knew she meant it. Casual violence was common; this was not a gentle family. My brothers and I were subject to a lot of that.
I hope I don’t suffer from confirmation bias in light of all that Daniel talked about today by saying this illuminates the disagreement Sylvia and I had about how to approach Primalling. I told her what worked for me, even in tiny increments, was going with vague (many times severely) unpleasant sensations and staying with them. What seemed to work for her was to go back verbally to actual childhood scenes, such as with Daniel’s hospital story.
Different people have wildly varying circumstances which need to be approached differently (aka ‘client-centered’).
I can see why Janov would have had a tough challenge customizing treatment plans for all these different patients coming in from a ridiculously complicated world.
You not only have to devote tons of emotional labor to the patient, you also have to sort out exactly what a wildly varying set of people might need in staffing meetings away from said patients.
What a daunting task that is!
I think this is why the Primal approach has had so much trouble growing.
Ugg, I think there are way worse things to suffer from than confirmation bias! Also, it sounds like you could be wondering if the Primal approach could help you, not just any patient. And that you believe helping you could be a “daunting task” that requires a “ton of emotional labor”. Just a thought.
So when I say the Primal approach has had so much trouble growing, you think I am actually saying **I** am having so much trouble growing?
Haha, trying to see how people might be projecting themselves onto the world can be a lot of fun. It’s good to self-check for these things, yes.
That’s definitely one interpretation, Ugg. Another would be that you think the Primal approach could grow if it took on the “daunting task” of trying to help people like you.
That sounds terribly egocentric to me. Are you sure that interpretation wouldn’t be more appropriate for someone like Donald Trump (high effort/high reward)?
I mean….I’m just a guy trying to live his life day-by-day. I never thought of myself as someone who is going to teach a psychological sect a gigantic, humbling lesson.
It’s a humbling enough experience for me to simply try to stay warm against the ongoing polar vortex. I don’t know how you and Larry can tolerate the Canadian winters.
Ugg, what makes you think I tolerate Canadian winters? I do not tolerate them. I hate them. I do not understand how people can live in such a cold environment. But when I try and tell them this, they usually tell me that it is actually warm day or a mild winter we are having! I wish I could be more like Larry, who, it seems, does not just tolerate Canadian winters, but actually thrives in them.
Expensive, very warm but light clothing helps. Being able to get out in Nature helps. I would feel miserable in winter if I couldn’t get out of the City with all of it’s cold, lifeless steel and asphalt. Having a reliable vehicle that warms up quickly helps. Even with highly insulating clothing outdoors, it’s important to keep moving in order to generate body heat. I like rising to the challenge of adapting strategies for staying comfortable in adverse weather. But extreme cold like we’re having now and is typical for this time of winter, -41C feeling like -52C with the wind chill (-42F feeling like -62F with the wind chill), can be injurious or deadly if you are out there unprotected for even a short time, so I stay indoors a lot more. But when it’s this cold the sky is always clear, sunny during the day and starry at night. The sunshine streaming indoors brightens my mood a lot, and my warm clothing keeps me comfortable when I go out for short spurts into that sparkling, beautiful but deadly winter landscape.
Humans are poorly adapted to many conditions, and we get by making compensating things for ourselves. Clothes, heat sources, and the Super Bowl to watch on TV in our living rooms on a cold winter day in February (which I skipped). We belong in Africa.
The absolute coldest I ever experienced was in Minnesota at -27F and that left me completely miserable. Larry’s living in -42F with -62F wind chill? I’m utterly speechless. You might as well shut off your freezer to save electricity over the winter and store your frozen food outside.
Just cut a small sliding door in an exterior wall with a locked metal cage attached to the exterior of your house. That’s your free winter freezer.
Yea those are insane living conditions. Never mind three dog nights. It sounds like you need twenty or more dogs in bed with you.
Phil
Daniel,
what you wrote makes a lot of sense to me.
both rationally and according to my own feeling experiences.
at the age of two my mom had to go to the hospital for a few weeks, and I was put in some kind of ‘nursing home’, or semi-orphanage, it never became clear where that was.
I can only assume that all the infant crying I often did and do are partially related to the fear and feeling of abandonment I then felt.
that kind of crying usually occurred as a second step after feeling the impact of another trigger which i could get into more easily as it had already some meaning.
then the crying about that trigger would smoothly go over into very young wailing and wailing, just expressing need and despair of a more general kind.
I think that is mostly all we can consciously get to, a relief and reliving of the distress which back then was also impossible to understand and rationally explain.
in my own life history it probably is linked to other feelings about my mom and dad and needing them, feeling fear, sorrow and despair, in some way or another in lesser or other forms, while growing up.
maybe even now the dread about having to lose my mom one day is linked to it.
it seems true, as I feel emotion stirring…
M
I probably won’t attend tonight’s primal Zoom group.
I have a busy day tomorrow and feel I’d rather have a good night’s sleep.
it is good to feel I feel more free to make my own choice, not feeling group would fulfill my old need or something, but still I feel some regret about missing out on what goes on.
but it is nice to feel able to take care of myself, allowing myself a bit of a break for tonight.
Corona, freezing weather, risky roads and walkways, and still things to do tomorrow like going to the volunteer helpline center make me feel it is the best option for me right now to rest and relax instead of what for me is a late evening group, starting at 7 but often ending close to 11 pm.
hope to be there next week though!
M
Margaret,
I missed you in group yesterday. Sorry about delayed posting of these messages.
Phil
Margaret, I missed you in group yesterday. Sorry about delayed posting of these messages.
Phli
my mood has brightened up significantly after getting my mom on the phone, after having tried in vain for the past two days.
i call her on the landline in her room, but she must have been in the community a lot of the time, and until later than her usual bedtime hour.
and I did not try after that hour as i did not want to wake her up.
but I felt a bit concerned as since thursday I worried a bit about a possible bladder infection she might have.
i had warned the nurses she mentioned some pain but I had not been able either to check with the doctor if they had tested it.
so it was a relief to get her on the phone just now, after her dinner.
she was very lively and enjoyed seeing all the snow in the garden outside her window.
and upon my question, she said she had no pain whatsoever anymore while peeing, she sounded very certain about it despite her memory problems, and I feel how a worry has been lifted off me, and my life suddenly feels easier again for the time being, ha, which I enjoy.
things like this can easily be one of the straws threatening to break this here camel’s back, when everything starts feeling like almost too much, too doom and gloomy and threatening…
so now just the ordinary morning doom and gloom while, which I know is temporary and dissipates when coming into action.
I read in one of my courses everyone’s cortisol levels peak upon waking up, for at least half an hour before lowering. so morning stress and anxiety seems very common.
in primal terms defenses are down still then.
so every straw on my back less is nice!
and well, worrying about mom’s health is not just one straw really, more a bunch of straws tightly packed together…
glad I called her several times until I got her on the phone, as a smile is still lingering on my face, they call her our little sunshine at the nursing home, a very good name for her despite the fact she can also be sad or angry.
her basic mood is upbeat and optimistic, and ‘we have to make the best of things’, a very good attitude in life if you ask me.
it feels like a great gift she did pass on to us.
M
Believe it or not some of my friends who went for a walk this morning said it was beautiful but they had to remove some layers because they got too warm. Guru, I’ve often though I should set up a system to pipe in cold air from outdoors into my fridge and freezer. Would have to warm up the air some though.
Phil,
no problem, thanks for posting them now.
I was glad I decided to go to bed early, I woke up four times and every time was glad to find out I still had many hours to sleep, just turning over and zzzzz…
and today I needed the energy, chores in the morning and getting to volunteer work over icy roads and very tricky walkways, one difficult call between other calls, someone in a bit of a manic state with some paranoia as well…
managed to deal with it as well as possible I think.
then icy road back home, and now again to bed, hurray!
M
Margaret, that’s really interesting the various levels of primalling you describe, which you correlate with pain experienced at different ages. Thanks for sharing that.
Phil, I liked your concept of “primalling the deficit”. I wonder what that deficit feels like, as an absence or as a presence? In other words, is it experienced as a deficit of no mother, or as a hostile presence of a no-mother.
Your emphasis, with which I agree, on other people again takes me to the experience of the primal, which is rather solipsistic. Barry Bernfeld used to say about neurotic pain that the way out is the way in. So, if the way in was with or about other people how come the healing primal is such a solitary experience? Or, let me put it another way – is there a difference in primalling alone vs. primalling in the presence of another person?
Daniel,
These are interesting questions.
the feeling of deficit as I called it, or need, focuses on some positive qualities of the people I had at some point who were interested in and caring about me, but what they gave wasn’t enough, or distorted. I needed much more. The people who were in charge of my care especially, Isn’t that a large part of what primal is about? So, I’m not saying anything noteworthy.
I think we all have had someone like that to focus on, unless we were raised by wolves. I’m finding that applies to my mother, for example, even though I don’t remember getting much from her. At a certain point she forgot about me and hardly seemed to be aware or know who I was, and those are very painful memories to deal with, which at times have had me feeling I didn’t have a mother at all. The truth is complicated I think because her condition and capabilities dramatically changed over time, as did our relationship.
My biggest feelings seem to happen when I’m alone. Having someone with me can feel like an intrusion. I won’t go as deep into a feeling as I would otherwise. Maybe because so much of my history has to do with being alone, or emotionally alone and unsupported.
I know other people seem to need someone present in order to go deep with feelings.
But that’s not the same as being alone in my therapeutic process, which I’m not.
Phil
This morning she said she loves me. Seconds later I got up and went to the other room to cry. I returned and said I love her too. But since then I’ve been crying all afternoon about it. Little Larry wants me to run away, because otherwise he’ll have to see how alone he is if I get love. My life was so empty then. I sob softly so the neighbours don’t hear. I call quietly, Mommy, Daddy. but there is no response from them. I’m small and helpless and need them. It’s as if I do not exist and they do not hear me. I’m so alone and scared. Afraid to plunge into love now, but must, absolutely must go forward in life with her, because she is one of the best things to happen to me. I cannot let my fear stop this wonderful opening of ourselves to love with each other.
last night I had such a wonderful de
Ream, so good it makes me feel at this moment I must be on a good track…
i woke up feeling really good, ppeaceful too.
the setting was a marvallous forest, cathedrallike, tall trees, no shrub but a thick layer on the ground of colourful dry leaves.
there were people and animals, and overall a feeling atmosphere.
at some point I broke into deep sobbing, seeing a brief video of someone riding a beautiful horse, and felt struck by nostalgia about my own days of intensely happy horseback riding, and the thrill of letting the horse run as fast as he would like to do, wind blowing, horse and me extatic with joy…
then there were moments with eople, not much conversation but feelings going around, not always easy but then always turning out in some kind of resolution and peaceful acceptance and warmth.
there were funny episods with an old grumpy man and his old grumpy dog, ending up running through the leaves, feeling young again, and there was a kind of mountain lion or cougar mommy, who turned out to have a really gorgeous kitten whose daddy had clearly been a tiger…
a dream of connection and beauty, come to think of it…
this volunteer work on the phone helpline seems to be good for me, it takes some effort but is very rewarding.
sometimes small accomplishments, like being able to slow down the paranoid manic caller into a more reasonable person, at least momentarily, who agreed for him it was crucial to not allow himself to get into the worked up state if he needed communication so badly.
all callers are so different, but the feelings are all familiar in their own ways and it feels mostly natural to listen and engage and to feel empathetic and supportive.
i also feel this Corona time has its own magic feeling to it, specially now in combination with all the ice and snow we have here.
we are all forced to look at ourselves and our life from a different perspective, which is not a bad thing at all.
what is important, what do we need, what really matters?
we have more time to reflect on that, less ways to distract ourselves, and are more aware of how we need other people and that our luxurious life is not for granted and not eternal.
back to the basics so to say.
M
Phil and Daniel,
speaking for myself, some feelings really depended on the company of others, like for example that time when I got more time and attention from the group than I expected, and wanted to say ‘I feel I don’t deserve this’, and could not finish the sentence as the word deserve, to my own surprise, turned into a long scream of agony…
other times it is more of the opposite, there were many times where only after Barry had left our private session, I would break down and cry and cry.
other times I remember having gone off into a separate room, during group, to wail, and part of me still wanted to be heard, so I chose a room not too faraway, thus recreating a childhood situation of hope someone would eventually react, and the growing despair of that not occurring.
other times the crying was on my own, just desperateness and loneliness.
so it seems to depend of the contents really.
M
Larry,
your comment was so touching…
I am so happy for the both of you.
and it sounds like at the same time it is helping you to process a lot of your old stuff.
way to go, and inspiring.
M
Thanks Margaret. I’m happy that you are getting so much out of your volunteer work. Good for you for making the effort. I can easily imagine that at first it would not have been easy to get yourself started at it.
This morning I sank more into the crying, deeper into the vein of pain that I discovered and explored yesterday. This time I didn’t need to clutch my Teddy Bear to me to help me go down there, the only and understanding friend who comforts me in my 4 year old world of aloneness and fear, devoid of nurturing human contact. This morning the song ‘Belong’ by San Fermin was all it took to open the gate and let me stumble in.
I am afraid of closeness, of touch, especially afraid of love, or at least the part of me that never got it when I was most helpless and most needed it in the past, is. The primalling is most painful…doing this therapy is most difficult when Little Larry and I have to open, see and feel the truth, of what was never there for me, before I can move on now. Otherwise I stay afraid to, unconsciously. But I strive to move on, to not let his life and my past hold me forever in a state of deprivation. I strive to not let her down, who told me she loves me.
Today I used some cross country skis my father gave me about 43 years ago. I had to have new bindings put on them, but they worked fine. They’ve been in storage all this time. The first real work out they’ve had, 2 1/2 hours of skiing on beautiful curved and hilly paths in a nearby state park. I had big feelings about this on the way back in my car. I shouldn’t have accepted his gifts as they seemed to be very manipulative. I got gifts from him which were supposed to make me happy, but they didn’t. If I was happy, which he thought, then he could be happy, and think he took care of things.
He didn’t know how to make me happy, or help in any real way. I shouldn’t have accepted any more gifts or money from him. It was a complex feeling of being stuck with my father, and at the same time, not being able to let him go. I did want him to do well, but had no control over that, and he didn’t do well. Far from it. Just leave me the fuck alone, so I can do what I want. I’m glad I left when I did. Maybe I should have just thrown out these fucking skis. I was going through a terrible, terrible time; he was totally useless. Worse than useless. Much worse.
Phil
However fucked up your father was, and however useless and manipulative — that’s HIM, not necessarily YOU, because you accepted his gift — although I do know what you mean, it is angry-making when someone is manipulative, and you just want to get away from them, it doesn’t feel good. But I still think it is good that he gave you something (his skis) rather than not giving them to you, or simply finding some way to hurt you more. However “mixed” the message and meaning, you got decent skis and are now able to make good use of them. I am not saying you “should be grateful”, either — just that I’m glad you were able to accept them as flawed gifts, and that you found a way to benefit from them.
Vicki, yes, I won’t be throwing out. The skis, but I do have a lot of mixed feelings about them, and my father. Thanks for this thoughtful post.
Phil
phil, sorry that happened to you in life. good that you can say it
left group early. took barb for a ride to the coast. we do this every weekend, but earlier today. we don’t get out of the car since sophie died and covid. i always feel bad when driving home. ifeel better if i just stay home.so many people out in their cars and restaurants today in l.a. barb’s cat has uti so we took to vet yesterday, she seems better now. i have been haunted this week by thoughts of all the pets have ever had and how horrible their lives became under my care. i am just beyond careless and in the league of trump with my callousness, and not thinking about how the plans i made or lack of plans for these animals. i joined the navy and left my 2 beautiful siamese cats at my grandmother’s house; also a parakeet i had for years. she gave the parakeet to my cousins and they probably did not take good care of her. the cats probably wondered (and suffered) every day–when was i going to come through the front door to pet them again. 2 years later…horrible like when my mom left me and i always expected she would return. the parakeet i had tried to built a net around a tree in the backyard to give her some freedom but she flew out out my poor design and broke her leg. my friend and i took her to the vet and got her leg in a cast. she had lived with us many years with pete the parakeet, who got killed by my first siamese cat because i was young and stupid and did not know shit about animals. every pete we got to replace him, so that dee the parakeet would not be alone–seemed to not last long. she always was afraid and depressed about being in their cage. pete died because i left him out of his cage so he could fly freely through the house. i never expected the cat to get him. i hate to think of birds in cages then and now. well that enough. i am working too hard and life is a pain in the butt with covid in the air. eating out with my love used to be a little fun, and maybe we will get to do it again some day. drove up to toplanga state park. barb loves the trees. no parking and too many people to get out of the car anyways.
by the way,blue shield plan won’t accept a diagnosis of ‘f’d up’ so leave mine at just ‘mildly depressed. i am not sure when my oldest son started calling me by my name instead of dad, maybe when i abandoned him at year 2, to go on a months-long bender. tragedy for him and the rest of us. i think i already told people about this.
Otto, thanks. With my father I stopped calling him dad at some early point in my life; and I’m not sure why. I didn’t use his name either, I just started in talking to him. Even as an adult that continued, and for me was noticeable and awkward, something obviously messed up about our relationship.
I can somewhat relate to what you go through with pets. We don’t have any because of my wife, and her emphasis on cleanliness.
Phil
Seems odd how I never thought about it before. Now when I do, that I never called my father ‘Dad’ or by his name makes my life seem starkly empty. I just avoided interaction with him, or listened to him when he needed me to, or I just approached and started talking to him without addressing him by any moniker, as if avoiding any personal connection with him. Yet when talking about him to my siblings or to someone else I’d refer to him as ‘Dad’, as if to conserve a fantasy that I did have a normal, father to child, personal connection with him.
That severing of connection with him goes way back, at least as far back as when I was 3 or 4. No wonder in my primals now, from back then, when I’m feeling really small and helpless and scared, when I need him desperately, the best that I can do is quietly whisper to him in great need… ‘Daddy’ …and just that is so painful.
Larry, I remember trying to fix this with my father, calling him dad, I think some time after starting therapy, but it didn’t work. It didn’t feel right and I couldn’t continue. I think, as I remember, he did the same with me, not using my name. Our relationship was warped and stunted.
Phil
Phil, I found a new dad for you:
https://twitter.com/NickCho/status/1355252735940067328?s=20
Guru,
I’m not appreciating this as a response to what I shared.
Phil
I’m sorry Phil, it wasn’t meant as an insult..more trying to be jovial, I guess.
Guru, I thought he might be fake, but he was ok, not a bad message. Thanks.
This song, “Body and Soul”, I am working on and can just about play all the way through on my alto sax, playing the vocal line. Here is my favorite version of the song, which is regularly bringing out feelings, because I like the melody and the words are about something deeply felt. I can often start to feel something as I try to play it
Phil
It’s going to happen right now, very sad feelings.
Anger too, the song is about wanting someone and getting them, and I guess it’s what my feelings are about, and angry about being abandoned, like I don’t matter.
Phil
Wanting someone and NOT getting them.
In the song “my life a hell you’re making”, that certainly applied. If I wanted attention I could be punished, spanked and abandoned.
Abandonment became permanent eventually, never ending.
Geez. How empty.
abandonment sucks. eventually i will have to abandon life. not my choice, but surely it will come. and even before that, i will surely have a stroke and maybe linger. the lifestyle we have now will end. that lifestyle might have worked 30 years ago (barely). the love that i live with hasn’t got the faintest idea of how to live when your income is shredded. no more nothing. no more therapy, no more whole foods. oh well, she can always live with our son in ohio. as long as he has a job. anyway. don’t know how much longer i can work and the older i get, the more the days speed up, until the end. these stupid frigging cats indoors and out, will be abandoned. and i had a taste of what dying and death will be like the other week, and it surely was not good. there is a reason every creature scurries away from it. or some get religion. ok, back to work until the next bad thing happens. dreamt about my grandmother last night. how i abandoned her so i could get something to eat. then realizing how the f am i abandoning an old woman? that has been my m.o. for most of my life.
Guru,
how are you doing?
I heard in your area temperatures drop as deep as minus 35 degrees Celsius, and millions of people are without electricity or gas.
I know how scary that is even after just a few hours, nothing functioning, no way to recharge smartphones or laptops , no heating, cooked food or warm drinks, tv or radio…
M
Margaret, I’m fine, thanks for asking about me. I’m not in Texas and that state is not used to seeing temperatures of zero C or below with windchills. All of my gas and electricity are currently running even though, yes, it has been a record-setting Siberian style winter for me,
I’m spending lots of time making sure my pipes don’t freeze and burst.
I don’t mind up to a few weeks of harsh winter weather. It can be crisp, refreshing, and invigoratingly healthy in various ways.
After about 2-3 weeks, though, the novelty wears off and I start to hate it with a passion.
Slogging through a long winter has a cumulative deleterious effect on me.
It becomes….gnarly.
Those last two sentences I wrote were inspired by an old article about how Pine Ridge Indian Reservation natives struggle to find propane heating in the long South Dakota winters, talking about the cumulative, gnarly effects.
Glad you’re doiong relatively well, weatherwise, Guru. Everybody’s freezing north of Texas, but a Wisconsonite told me today she would still rather have it there, than what’s in Texas.
Well thanks Vicki. It’s nice to know you care enough to be glad I am doing semi-OK. It seems I should have a relatively easy time converting you into a loving, caring surrogate parent then, shouldn’t I?
Ha, ha, ha!
WELL SCREW EVERYTHING ANYWAYS. my old brain cant keep up with my job. i have never been more assured that i have no idea what the f i am doing at all, in life or otherwise.
but if i solve even the smallest of things, or make contact with an interesting user, or get reminded of happier days when i used to know a lot of users (and a lot of them were characters)—then i can actually laugh about it and be happy for a second. then i go take a leak and realize once again that although the nearness to saturday-non-work day is a tiny bit closer, i am just that much closer to being dead. ha
my god. biden town hall. finally someone you can trust. he was asked how was it to live in the white house. he said i wake up and i ask my wife, where the hell am i? i could not stop laughing. get it? he looks so old and trump disparaged him for his age. but he is all there. long live the king.
Guru,
i am a bit confused, I think you wrote ‘I am not in Texas’, and then you describe the situation in your house.
did i misread or did you want to write ‘I am now in Texas’, or maybe you just were out of there for a little while.
as it does remain on my mind I thought I’d just ask…
M
Margaret, it is very cold where I am living, but I don’t live in Texas. I only drove through the state once in my entire life.
I do not pay my taxes in Texas.
Guru, can’t you narrow it down a little more for Margaret?
Why are you interjecting yourself and pressuring me to say more, Phil? How does this dialogue between Margaret and myself pertain to you?
I’ve already explained my past fear of defamation suits with my predator neighbor, so you’re not exactly making it easier for me here, Phil.
If Margaret is just dying to know exactly where I am at, I will trust her confidence and privately talk about that,
Guru, it was just a suggestion. Anyway I think you’ve got it covered since you aren’t here using your actual name, nor do you name your neighbors. Do you really think they would come on this blog?
Phil, I’ve reached a temporary detente in the neighbor situation over the past couple months which has calmed my mind to a certain degree.
When my dad was sick, this neighbor sent an employee to discreetly follow me around town to understand why my comings and goings from home were unusual at the time.
The neighbor has a brother who is rumored to be a networking expert. I have suspicions the brother set up camp in the house next door to me to check my wi-fi traffic. I’ve also caught this brother spying through my window while hiding behind my tree.
It was only after I completely shut down my wi-fi and used ethernet cable only, did the brother move out of the house shortly afterwards (so yeah the timing was suspicious to me as he could no longer surveil hard ethernet landline).
This is making me upset, OK?
I’m trying to keep the drama to a minimum so I can focus on some ludicrously demanding and delicate computer programming. I’m not a prodigy at programming, only mildly competent, so I need to conserve brainpower and not get too upset about things I can’t possibly control right now.
Since this is a psychotherapy page with all sorts of therapists milling about, I want to take a moment to completely dispel the notion that I may be a paranoid schizophrenic or some other diagnosis related to paranoia (eg. “My predator neighbors are spying on me!”).
I’ve had six or more neighbors throughout my life with zero problems. ZERO!
I’m dealing with an entire family who believe it is their God-given destiny to grab the land underneath my house, and they will stop at nothing to get it over the long run. I tried to explain how this is similar to Vera Coking’s experience with Donald Trump.
I truly don’t care if a neighbor is not interested in knowing me. I can definitely deal with that.
The only reasons I think these predators want more info about me is twofold:
a) Am I doing something illegal (such as drug use) so they can call the cops?
b) Am I financially weakened to a severe degree so they can step up harassment in the hopes of eventually driving me off this land? (streetlights, encroaching property alterations, etc.)
–Anyway, look, I just want to point out I am not paranoid…it’s highly upsetting to be surrounded (yes, physically!) by these people who will do whatever they can to get me out of here.
If I may so boldly suggest it, I would say this entire family needs therapy far more than I ever will!
As Jack would say here ‘QED’.
Guru,
I guess you’ll be dealing with them for the rest of your life, so you may want to become a therapist yourself.
Phil, I found your suggestion to Ugg (guru) that he might want to consider becoming a therapist an interesting one. I decided to do a Google search as to whether a guru could be a therapist. There is some interesting stuff on this subject. The article I liked the most is this one: https://www.psychotherapy.net/blog/title/my-psychotherapist-my-guru ….”Living only in the here-and-now gives him a resilient edge that is hard to beat. He is always present, his communication genuine, both verbal and non….If only we could walk in his footsteps, we could change our lives and become more at peace with ourselves in this chaotic world”. Unlike many on this blog, this particular kind of guru does not appeal to me. But when I think of just about any child I have been around, they would definitely fit the same description/category of guru.
Renee, since Phil is not around to answer your musings, I will try to provide a bit of reassuring liveliness to the blog’s current blank state of non-responsive deadness. I know you’re having some fun here, and I’m quite cool with light-spiritedness, but I do wonder…is there something you’re trying to scratch below the surface here at all?
Ugg, I’m not seeing anything below the surface here to scratch. I wonder, though, if there is anything below the surface to scratch with your phrases/images of “reassuring liveliness” and “non-responsive deadness”.
Renee, you and Daniel almost never agree on anything, so I see it as a significant development when you agree on something. One such thing was his theory that I may be severely mentally compromised to such a degree that I am a ‘walking child primal’ who can only express proto-feelings. You thought this seemed brilliant.
Now when you were joking around about the guru dog or the guru child who couldn’t see past his own nose in terms of future planning, I had to wonder if you really hold me on a lower mammalian level such as that given your earlier agreement with Daniel?
Woof woof?
Ugg, I seem to remember that it wasn’t just me who was impressed with Daniel’s interpretation of what was going on with you. You were as well. But if your takeaway from what Daniel wrote was that you “may be severely mentally compromised to such a degree that I am a ‘walking child primal’ who can only express proto-feelings”, you might want to clarify with Daniel what he meant. Because I don’t think this is accurate.
You also misunderstood my posting, which was just a way to see pets (or kids) as both gurus and therapists, because they are authentic and genuine and tend to be fully in the present moment, like most good gurus and good therapists. This has nothing to do with you being held “on a lower mammalian level” and not being able to do “future planning”. Btw, I cannot speak for Daniel, but I do not see you as less than or someone to look down on. Although, I can relate to those feelings……they can be really painful.
Thanks Renee, this is a very nice response and definitely covers all the loose ends I was wondering about. You also sharply noted that I, too, was impressed with Daniel’s work at the time. I will have to take some time to review what he wrote again.
Renée is right here, Guru. I never meant you “can only express proto-feelings” with all your feelings. I’m sure that throughout your life you had many experiences with accompanying feelings that you have repressed and can now, potentially, feel. What I did mean was that the actual experience of losing your mom at age two, then and there, must have bombarded you with sensations of all sorts but these were not elaborated into mental somethings you could have fully felt or repress as full feelings.
Daniel, I did re-read your earlier posting and I became hamstrung on your ‘creating and enunciating meaning as an adult those nameless sensations bombarding me as a child’. It wasn’t too much of a leap for me to simply attribute it my being a ‘walking primal with only proto-feelings’. Clearly I oversimplified what you said earlier and an entirely different meaning came out.
As a therapy skeptic, my dad would sloppily oversimplify such things when I brought up Janov and ‘love being a neurochemical event’. He would reflect on that and smirk, “Yeah yeah, we are walking chemistry sets, I know.” (Incidentally, this is why I once told Gretchen that chemistry sets are the perfect Primally-oriented wedding gift.) Or…such as when I brought up the idea of a non-judgmental therapist with reflective listening. He would say, “Oh alright I’ll be your listening dummy!!”
So in those examples dad would shrink semi-elaborate concepts (‘love is a neurochemical event’ and ‘non-judgmental therapist’) down to ‘chemistry sets’ and ‘listening dummy’ and perverting the original meaning.
Generally speaking, it seems that when someone has a larger message or agenda s/he is trying to convey, s/he will tend to simplify and shoehorn neutral or conflicting ideas (but still related to the topic at hand) and use the idea as a ‘shrunken, compact tool’ for furthering said message or agenda.
Tonight should be the last night I have to run the faucets protecting the pipes from freezing. I’ve let 500-600 gallons of water leak through this past week and now we’re finally seeing temperatures above freezing. Hallelujah!
A long, long time ago….in a place far, far away my maternal grandmother was placed at Rose Pointe in Roseville MN. Her rent was close to $3,000 per month and this was back in 1990 (she had the best place in the entire building). In a strange way I was on top of the world because I knew I was in an affluent life placement, but I had NO FUCKING IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH IT IN A WAY THAT WAS TRULY MEANINGFUL TO ME.
God, I just wish I knew then exactly what I know now. Shit! You’d never hear from me again.
When Trump and Bill Barr arranged to execute 13 federal death row prisoners, Supreme Court Justice Sandra Sotomayor made a point to name all of them in a dissenting ruling protesting one of the executions.
A part of me was like, “Jeez, lady, you realize we kill 13 people in auto traffic every two hours in this country, don’t you?”
Law makes for interesting drama, but it was utterly useless to me. I had a gaping hole for a missing parent and all I could do was stand there in Rose Pointe witnessing affluence slowly slipping away with my grandma drinking like crazy having no idea how to deal with losing her only child herself.
Visiting my grandma bedecked in her haughty affluence seemed only as my viewing a distant shiny bauble I couldn’t really connect to. There was no real connection to the bone without my mother being around. I might as well had been watching and riding in a sweet carnival parade with nonsensical meanings as to how it may have arrived there.
Although grandma could drive me utterly crazy at times, I loved her as much as I could when I could even though absolutely nothing was making sense to me as to why the things were the way they were.
Guru, I can relate to what you said here. During childhood I had my maternal grandmother living next door, but she wasn’t really who I wanted. Without my mother something was wrong , and still is, with my connection to her side of the family. It doesn’t feel right.
Phil
It required 3-4 beers for me to be courageous enough to post what I did. I was feeling a lot of anger and frustration that wouldn’t go away, so I caved in. Without the alcohol I doubt I would have discussed this. I’m going to sleep it off now. Some of my earliest drinking experiences included grandma sharing me some blackberry brandy & 7-up in that ritzy corner apartment.
Guru, that is sad, that several beers were required for you to write about grandma. But then I started wondering why, what was hard, or what was scary about it? If you can say, “inquiring minds would like to know”.
Vicki, from a conventional view if a white male with slight touches of affluence has anger, that means he is a selfish pig with First-World problems and his anger shouldn’t be taken seriously. Without the alcohol I couldn’t cut through that massive psychological cross current.
That Rose Pointe story was from 30 years ago and any form of wealth on my mom’s side has long since been pulverized with only a lone Rolex watch remaining now.
Guru,
So what you were saying here has to do with how well you feel you’re doing or not doing financially? Your grandmother had some affluence it seems, the way you described her.
Phil, I think it has more to do with how difficult it is to rebuild financially. I’m having a rough go at it. I’m not broke or in any debt, but definitely not as well-off as my grandparents were. I finally gave up and drank some alcohol because my anger and frustration at the ruthlessly tough work I still have ahead of me.
I was tired of life being an endless grind with the general shroud of malaise hanging around me.
Gurur, was there some expectation or pressure in your family to do well financially?
I went cross country skiing today again at the nearby park with the skis my father gave me. It was another very big workout, and I’m improving at it a little. There was a very steep and curvy hill that I took my skis off and walked down. Today I saw how a family of good skiers handled it. The hill is marked with a big caution sign and warning that it’s for experts. From their accents I gathered that they were from a northern European country. They heavily braked with their skis as they went down, it was nothing for them. I don’t have that level of control over my skis. They weren’t concerned with letting their daughter try to go down as well.. She looked to be about 8 or 9, she fell multiple times, but it didn’t bother her. That’s the best age to learn these things. Maybe sometime in the future I’ll give it a try.
When I got back home, there was no one here, and I ended up having some big feelings about my father. Him keeping me stuck, trying not to let me grow and develop. He wasn’t doing well and wanted to use me for his purposes and keep me stuck with him. I escaped but I’m starting to see better how having a father like that has effected me.
Phil
And I’m seeing how my father was like that for a long time, of course, not just when he give me skis. I was stuck with him for years, as he used me for his purposes.
A couple of songs helped today. This one:
this one:
I liked The Lovin’ Spoonful / John Sebastian back in the “The Mamas and the Papas” days, but had not heard him in years. Thanks.
and this one:
Ah yes. Paul Anka.
As I continue learning to play the saxophone, keeping time keeps emerging as a problem. I heard from another music teacher that most students don’t have this problem. I’ve come up with a theory that makes sense for me. I think my natural feeling of timing and rhythm is effected and distorted by primal pain. It’s also why music is such a tremendous help for me with feelings. Music helps me find my natural timing and rhythm and triggers feelings when they’re ready to come out. I also have to find the melody and words significant for it to be a help, not just any song will do. It’s also why learning music is beneficial for me. I won’t give up, even having trouble with timing.
Phil
As again, I don’t speak in group, I conclude that another feeling of mine is that i am afraid i will be forgotten about, as i was as a baby in a strange bassinette and on through the many years of being home alone throughout my childhood. the sinking feeling in my stomach only becomes noticeable within the last hour or less of group. my son and wife called halfway through the group to say that he was extremely sick with symptoms that seem to be covid. all except for loss of smell or taste. he went to er and came home, still temp of 102. we all await his test results. i spent the 2nd half of group researching how he can get monoclonal therapy in ohio. i was not scared when he and his wife called to tell us this bad news, and i certainly feel isolated and alone as usual. i had thoughts of mentioning this in group, and before i got his call, i also had thoughts of relaying my sudden realization that i am too old to work many more years, and probably barbara neither, and we live paycheck to paycheck as it is, and my pension will be 1/3 of my current paycheck, and we did not ever end up owning a home and my other retirement account is miniscule.
. well i feel nothing
I’m sorry we didn’t buy a bunch of bitcoin in 2011 when we had the chance, Otto. The first transaction was around 2010 with a super early adopter paying 10,000 BTC for two Papa John’s pizzas.
Today those two Papa John’s pizzas are worth $580 million (yes, that accurate $58K times 10,000 is $580 million).
Surprisingly the man who spent those coins didn’t feel much regret over it.
Personally, that would have been one of those rare moments where I would contemplate suicide knowing how I absolutely royally fucked everything up buying those two pizzas.
Guru, do you fool around with bitcoins? Dig them up (mine) them?
Phil, no I’ve never been involved, though in hindsight I certainly wish I did! I think I first heard of bitcoins back in 2012 when they were $5 each. That was the year P. burst onto the blog with a dramatic introduction, screaming at Jack.
During the early years you could mine BTC with just a simple laptop computer and graphics card. Nowadays mining is massive undertaking far beyond most peoples’ reach.
Wow, I contraindicatively marked the bitcoin all-time high ‘top price’ PERFECTLY with this post, didn’t I? Now BTC is puking its guts and drops 20% to below $50,000 within hours of my Papa John’s pizza story.
Those two pizzas are only worth $490 million now.
Guru, should I start saving bitcoins in my piggy bank? Or satoshis? And since they are cryptocurrencies does that mean they are safe, and no one can find them?
One last question. How much would sushi cost in satoshis?
The minute I posted BTC is below $50K it turns right around and jumps back about $52K. Crazy volatility, to say the least.
As for the sushi, all you have to do is calculate it. There’s 100 million satoshis in one bitcoin. Each satoshi is worth roughly 1/20th of a cent right now.
A $60 sushi lunch is worth 120,000 satoshis, so…
You’d pay .00120000 bitcoin to the restaurant and .00024000 bitcoin to the waiter as a 20% tip.
Simple, is it not? Such ease of use scaling itself to millions of restaurants worldwide? (yes I’m being sarcastic)
It looks like the use of bitcoins and satoshis is only for math majors.
Otto,
that’s terrible. I hope your son being relatively young has a mild case if it turns out to be Covid.
Phil
Otto, I hope your son feels better and gets lots of rest and good care from his wife.
Speaking about your income after retirement, I don’t know when you were in the service, but if you were in the military in the Vietnam war era : between 1964 and May 7th 1975, you could qualify for supplemental income to meet the poverty level of $18,000 a yr. and if you have a dependent (your wife), and are over 65 yrs. Otherwise it is about $14,000 for an individual alone. You needn’t have actually been to Vietnam, just on active duty in the service before the war ended. The income of you and wife combined would be added to, to make the $18,000 annual income. Just thought I would mention it for you or anyone you might know who would be of that era.
Take care.
S
Otto,
when you retire you might consider moving to a state where your money would be worth me. California is too expensive, New York too, so that will be something for us to consider. Texas won’t be on my list.
Phil
I will not attend group tonight, feel too tired already and still have to go visit mom this afternoon.
had a volunteer work afternoon yesterday and will have one tomorrow, and feel I really need my rest tonight, despite feeling very interested in how group will go.
and heyho, finally was allowed to go to the hairdresser last friday, feels like a huge relief, not to have bits of hair dangling before my eyes and annoying me and feeling like a poodle that hasn’t been trimmed for three years or so….
we have a very unexpected springday here all of a sudden after ten days of freezing and snow, and today we beat the warmth record on a february day, the weather is going more crazy bit by bit.
I saw some distressing videos on the news about those poor people in Texas who after all the distress of no power or gas during the freezing, now have to deal with sudden waterfalls in their place from people living above them who have broken water pipes .
that seems equally or even more awful when your whole place gets soaked by big streams of water falling from walls and ceiling and no immediate help at hand as it is happening on a lot of places…
it really sticks on my mind how hard that must be, what to do, where to go?
m
Margaret,
It was a good group, for me anyway, and I noticed your absence.
Phil
always depressed or left with unsettled bad feelings after these sunday groups and i am not sure why. nothing new, i guess, i have felt bad at least 50 percent of the time after ANY group. i do have the pain from going back to miltary school every other sunday from a weekend at home. but nothing much was great during those weekends. church and steak, maybe something else, can’t remember. oh probably tv by myself. my brother probably did his own thing. my grandmother cleaned and cooked and listened to church music on the radio. maybe i could practice on the piano since i was taking piano lessons in military school. but i don’t think i did. what a waste of life for 10 months. i didn’t feel a part of the kids in my barracks or classes at military school, and i dont feel a part of group or primal community either. nothing new with that, story of my life. it will be a little better when barb and i can go get takeout once our vaccinations work. group probably also feels like when i would sit in either sunday school or big church although we did sing. i cant remember if i liked singing church songs or not. singing songs in 5th grade class in elementary school with a caring lady teacher was the highlight of those years but the me and my brother went to prison–i mean military school right after 5th grade and now i get to fucking die soon enough. god i am so m’fing happy i could fart. well now we watch family feud together on our sunday night me and barb, and then the rigors and terror of work for the next 5 days. and i am one of the luckier ones of the billions of earth people.
Dr, Carl Hart, Columbia professor uses heroin every day.
https://www.complex.com/life/carl-hart-columbia-professor-heroin-every-day
I realize this gentleman is going to create a firestorm of controversy since he is an admitted recreational heroin user, but I do find myself in some level of agreement with him.
From my experiences, opioids are playing with fire, though, and I fully appreciate the addictive potential firsthand.
Having said that, I also can see where there were times opioids helped me to function more smoothly even without physical pain. I think Margaret had some interesting things to say there.
Yes, yes clearly the need for opioids can all be driven by Primal Pain. I get all that clearly, but sometimes….us fallible humans can’t reach into all those dark crevasses on demand.
By the way, even though I have some experience with opioids and can see potential uses emotionally, my own level of past use doesn’t seem to come close to matching Dr. Hart’s.
For lack of a better way to describe it, I do know from experience how small doses of opioids can ’round out the tough edges of life more smoothly’.
But I also know how seductive that can be and you have to forcefully know when to stop.
Guru, that’s interesting. Opioids have no attraction for me. They are over prescribed and over used, and can obviously lead to problems. It’s better to stay away from them.
Phil
Phil, have you ever tried opioids or felt any euphoria from such?
Guru, never recreationally. I think I may have had codeine for some major dental work, but I’m not sure. I didn’t finish taking the prescription, in any case. I didn’t have any euphoria that I remember.
(I do fully understand my own optimal approach is to completely soak myself in those tough edges of life feelings as a cucumber would in brine, so I could eventually become a tough person with an edge over life.)
Ugg, once again a posting of yours inspired me. Sometimes what you write comes so close to poetry. It just needs a little fine-tuning. (I think this was your first posting entirely in brackets.)
I was a cucumber
Who thought I could become tougher
And live a more optimal life
If I immersed myself in brine
Instead I lost water
And became a shriveled pickle
Living within the brackets
Of a glass jar
And missing my life
As a free and gentle cucumber
Renee,
Great poem! Together with Guru’s post made me think of green olives in brine.
I love those. They can take the rough edges off life.
Phil
Haha, well I did have some good laughter out of your work, Renee. It’s almost always a sign of good poem when multiple meanings can be drawn from it, especially with an economy of words. Computer programming and poetry are similar in that fashion, actually.
Let me back this up to a more literal sense for a second. I am only hashing this out below so it can be fully understood what went through my mind in my post, and not to detract from the potentially multiple new meanings from your poem.
PARENTHESES: I wrote what I did in parentheses to wordlessly convey that the passage I wrote was a throwaway aside, a non-essential afterthought which still carried some relevance to the topic at hand.
WORD PLAY (PHRASE ANAGRAM): Not sure if you or Phil caught this, but I was making a play on ‘tough edges of life feelings’ being slightly scrambled to a ‘tough person with an edge over life’.
I will steal your own phrase here and remark that just a little fine-tuning can create almost diametrically opposed meanings, using those ‘life edge’ phrases as an example.
Phil, by the way I think having a half-bottle of codeine is basically the same as never having any opioid consumption in your life at all. Nothing wrong with that, obviously, but I did want to point out that codeine is the weakest of opioids. Now if you had taken Vicodin such as when I did after breaking my ankle, I would consider you as having stepped up your opioid game.
Chart for Phil:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK537482/table/appannex6.tab2/
Codeine is 1/10th the strength of morphine. 1/20th the strength of heroin.
What’s killing all the people these past few years is fentanyl, which is 50 times as strong as morphine (possibly more with analogues). Fentanyl in this case would be 500 times as strong as the codeine you were taking.
There are even worse designer opioids out there which can be up to 10,000 times as strong as heroin (carfentanil the elephant tranquilizer?)
That government chart is claiming fentanyl to be 100 times as strong as morphine, which would then be 1,000 times as strong as Phil’s codeine prescription.
I liked Dr. Hart’s ideas to some degree as I explained yesterday, but….obviously the danger levels with designer opioids are second to none.
Guru,
I was aware of this about codeine, I may have had in total only 1 or 2 pills, and I’m
glad about that. It still counts as an opiate.
I forgot to mention that during my experimental phase in college, when all kinds of stuff was around, I took a few puffs of opium, which did nothing at all. These days I like
to even avoid prescribed medicines as much as possible.
Phil
I’m glad you liked my poem, Phil and Ugg. I had fun writing it…….I’ve never imagined life as a cucumber or pickle before! Unlike you, Phil, I am not a fan of green olives unless they are on a pizza. Btw, for me, pizza definitely takes the rough edges off life.
Ugg, I’m amazed that you put so much thought into a one sentence post! You must have a lot of free time to do so much thinking.
If all of my time is being spent in a glass jar, how could it be free?
Guru, it sounds to me like you’re in a pickle.
Very astute observation, Phil. Be careful what you wish for…..you could end up in a pickle.
Renee, I wanted to bring up something related to what you and Sylvia were talking about earlier when I was having those Barry troubles. You made some references to bullying and perhaps how she might have said some hurtful things to me on top of Barry(?).
You seemed amazed that I wasn’t too upset over Sylvia being hurtful.
My reasoning here, deep in my mind, was she had said LOTS and LOTS of incredibly NOURISHING things to me over the previous few years, so it was very easy for me to overlook a few hurtful things she might have said.
If someone gives me 500 sweet, caring, and emotionally nourishing words and phrases, then 5-10 nasty barbs thrown at me are easily dismissed.
Thanks, Guru, I knew that you could endure my wrath. It was an argument of old buddies who ultimately want the best for each other. We each gave each other what we got.–fair fight, I think.
S
Ugg, I wasn’t amazed that you didn’t seem too upset over Sylvia saying hurtful things to you What makes you think I was?
After reading you post I realize ‘amazed’ was a bad word to use; ‘incredulous’ would be much better here. Do you remember when you asked me “are you serious?” when I only had a mild reaction to Sylvia lambasting me? You seemed incredulous.
(No, I don’t know why it took me so long to review this matter weeks after the fact. I do understand it’s a delayed, dispassionate review now.)
I will say I don’t entirely agree with Sylvia in that it was a ‘fair fight’, but as I said earlier she’s been highly supportive of me emotionally in recent years so that’s why it washed off my back somewhat easily.
sometimes it just turns out that way
life
Something’s wrong. The enormity of the major disaster that has been my life for 69 years weighs down upon me at 3 in the morning. I am in the final stage of being a bug that is being squashed by a giant foot in super -slow motion. I think this is the end. How could things have gone so wrong for me? A major disaster of sadness. Sometimes things just turn out that way. akin to john lennon’s long slow knife, a true horror that can have no good conclusion. Sometimes things just turn out that way. All is lost. I am so fucking sad. What an awakening, just before the last bit of doom.
Otto, the only reference that I know of where John Lennon refers to a knife is in his so fucking sad song, “Nobody loves you (when you’re down and out)” from his 1974 album, Walls and Bridges. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1GmuWjjjM4. But I don’t think this is the knife you are referring to, is it?
The temperature was in the 50’s today here and a lot of the snow was melting. I hope there will be some left this weekend so I can go cross country skiing again, even though it seems to bring up feelings.
Today I connected with big feelings about a different winter sport, ice skating, maybe for no particular reason other than I’m ready for them to come out. There was a popular pond for ice skating in the center of my childhood town. I think I got started skating there when I was maybe 6 or 7. I don’t remember seeing my father skate, but I feel sure he could. The feeling was about him leaving me there to skate, when I wanted him to stay. There was nothing wrong with being alone there, except I had no friends with me, I wanted my father to be interested in me, enough to stay around, and not just drop me off and leave. He showed no interest. As I got a little older, I did have friends for ice skating, but that doesn’t seem to be the point. It’s that my father showed no interest, or even understanding that I was there alone. I didn’t ask him to stay, I guess I wanted him to think of that himself.
I’m seeing how it’s related to him giving me cross country skis when I was older. That kind of showed the limit of his interest and involvement.
Phil
My life is flashing before my eyes. Every day now, for a while. I was just thinking of Tucson a minute ago. “Slowly I turned”. It wasn’t the worst of things that could have happened to me or us. Heat was an issue. Barb and I and later the oldest kid could go to town and get Mexican or Chinese or American. Or sometimes at night I could sneak away and get Church’s fried chicken. Those were the days. I learned that I did not really know that much about computers, which was a continuing progression from the previous 10 years. I didn’t have to learn how shy I was, afraid of people. That continued year after year, since early on. Well I was in a job that was not meant for wallflowers. Tucson came to my mind tonight because they’ve been advertising Scrubs on tv for a week or so. I had my own bedroom in Tucson and watched reruns of Scrubs every night. Barb and the kid would go to AA meetings. Before I went to meet him in Kentucky and drive to our Tucson house together, Barb and I would go to debtors anonymous and alanon, but I pretty much stopped that when the kid came to live with us. The house in Tucson we were buying was in the suburbs in a housing tract that had just been started. I was afraid to be far from my job, so we stupidly bought that house near our pill factory. It probably would have been better for us if we had moved closer to town, but like i said…stupidly.Turns out that I really had not much to do at my job, as the factory was just starting to be implemented, and I was a late-comer on the scene, having wrangled a late starting date so we could stay in our Santa Monica rental a little while longer. Other people were now doing my job, the stuff i had done in L.A. A forced move to Tucson since the factory in L.A. was phased out. I couldn’t get a job here so we moved to Tucson. Well the other kid who stayed in West L.A. in a men’s facility for recovering alcoholics must have felt abandoned by us moving to Tucson. He went on a months-long binge but we finally got him to come back with us to Tucson for a while. Tucson, “Slowly I turned…”. We got our beautiful dachshund Sophie in Tucson. She just died in October. I can’t believe we’ve been back in L.A. (SF valley, that is) for 12 years now. The days have gone by fast enough of course. Well, at least I had a job in Tucson, and have been working for the same company since I started therapy in 85. Pretty much my life went downhill in 89, or up and down. and before that when I was young. Not much more to say about it. 6 outside cats and 3 inside. Even if I don’t die for another 10 years (and that is highly unlikely) they all may end up alive for a long time after me, or starve, or go to the pound. Sometimes it just turns out that way. Asi es la vida. Que sera sera. Don’t know what the Chinese say.
Monday, Monday, can’t trust that day
Monday, Monday, sometimes it just turns out that way
Oh Monday mornin’ you gave me no warnin’ of what was to be
Oh Monday, Monday, how could you leave and not take me
Temple Grandin said something like prey animals might see a predator 10 yards in the distance, and they won’t run and hide right away unless predator gets closer. because if they run and hide every time a predator is seen or scented far away and prey runs, prey will get exhausted or mental or something like that. well my switch in the brain is stuck on RUN and all i see is death everywhere i look, near and far. stuck from the living death i had laying in a bassinette all day wondering where my mother was (she was dying). a living death, deprived of attention, human contact,etc for many hours a day. at my grandma’s or uncle’s. or so i theorize. later years her inattentive non-presence and his monster presence also made me feel that death was always lurking. I KEEP ASKING MYSELF, OUT LOUD—AM I ALIVE? and maybe a hernia operation very early started this whole chain. luckily i did not stay with my uncle too long, but a minute of terror or deprivation of food touch attention to a baby can last a lifetime, and apparently has, in my case. and now death lurks in reality and my switch is still stuck and death is all i feel. always running from it, but i cant get away.
ah, bullcrap. something like that
or maybe barry said that, i cant remember
Ugg, I think this is the comment of mine that you are referring to: ” Ugg, I’m curious about your comment that, “When someone I like irritates me I’m usually very calm about it. I try to detail the exact reasons why I am irritated by something, so hopefully the other person can see what I am seeing?” I can’t decide if you are kidding or if you really believe this.” I found this hard to believe and thought you might be joking as you don’t come across to me as a calm person who tries to detail the exact reasons when you are irritated. I didn’t see your comment as being specifically in relation to Sylvia.
If you re-read my initial response to Sylvia after she told me I was ‘allergic to Primal’ you will see a list of reasons why I was bugged by that statement at the time. I thought I listed them calmly and rationally??
I don’t believe I have actually yelled at someone in their face since 1997 (seriously!).
The last time it happened was when I screamed in anger at a buddy on a fishing trip 24 years ago.
No criminal record, much less a violent criminal record.
I might stew quietly in irritation and heatedly type words, but I have seen no smoke curling from between the plastic keys.
As a sidebar question: If person A is dealing with 10 times as much irritating stimuli (at least in the eyes of a reasonable plurality of observers) as person B, yet person A only displays twice as much visible irritation as person B, does this mean person A is inherently five times as calm as person B?
Incidentally, the buddy I yelled at on the fishing trip was well known as a bully in our social circle with spousal domestic disturbance calls, to boot.
I take this back, I did yell a few times at a primal buddy over the phone 10 years ago. Old friends reaching mutual extreme irritation.
I’m a very slow driver so there is not any aggressive act-out through fast driving. The last time I had a traffic ticket was in February 2000, no accidents since 1994.
In other words, I’m fucking boring!
Guru, I wondered if you felt you did not fight fairly with Sylvia, she did not fight fairly with you or both ? Gretchen
The only reason I said it wasn’t fair was that I made one or two points of criticism at her while she retorted with six points of criticism of her own?
I felt as though I paid triple damages, so to speak.
Having said that, though, again she has been remarkably supportive towards myself and others over several years’ time. I would admit she’s been significantly more supportive of me than I could be of her. She apparently didn’t need as much support as I have given what I went through with losing dad.
This is why I tried to explain to Renee that it didn’t bother me as much as one might expect. No one’s going to ever bat 1.000 in baseball.
Guru, Maybe being both supportive and honest with a good friend is in fact batting a 1000 in baseball. You said to Renee you try to tell those you are irritated with exactly why you are irritated . I think that’s what Sylvia did.. To answer your question no I don’t think person A is necessarily five times as calm as person B. I also don’t necessarily think person A can truly judge how much pain person B is dealing with. Nor should they. This idea of weighing who has the most pain can become pretty irrelevant at some point. I do agree that you don’t come across as a calm person who methodically outlines your reasons for being angry (your responses to Barry or Jack at times would indicate otherwise) still I don’t think you need to convince us that you are not an aggressive or violent person. I think we all understand that. Maybe we need to consider that anger is just a feeling like any other ( whether part of the past or strictly in the present)..People can tend to be the “ judgiest” ( I made that up) when it comes to anger ! Gretchen
“This idea of weighing who has the most pain can become pretty irrelevant at some point.”
OK that sounds suspicious and dubious to me. All kinds of room for wriggling and worming through the magic avenue of non-falsifiability,
Don’t you do intake interviews to assess the size of the sack of rocks someone might be carrying around (thus assigning an appropriate customized therapist, yada yada yada?)
Don’t get me wrong, I understand psychology can be much more tricky and arcane to try to reach an accurate and/or falsifiable assessment than…say…an emergency room manager trying to decide who should be treated first: the girl with the broken ankle or a man with a gaping shotgun wound to the abdomen.
Telling me I am not a calm person is a terrible catch-22:
a) I can either calmly accept it and keep quiet, thus implicitly keeping the perception alive or,
b) I can protest against the attribution, thus keeping the perception of being an easily agitated individual alive as well
There’s no way out of that one at all
Given that it places the recipient in a catch-22, the very nature of the statement “You are not a calm person” is a coercive one.
Guru, Gretchen did not declare that “You are not a calm person” or the rest of your interpretations and feelings about ‘it’. Reread the sentence in which she wrote “you don’t come across as a calm person”, along with its context. Yet, you seem to keep feeling threatened.
Vicki, OK a little more time here to say that Gretchen’s ‘calm person’ comment seemed to be inspired by Renee stating it, so I half-heartedly responded to Gretchen instead of referencing both comments.
It just seemed ‘coercive’ with a no-win solution for me.
I do get angry and scream once in a while at the walls where there are no social consequences, so I am glad to live in detached single-family housing instead of a condo or apartment.
Thanks Vicki that is correct. I honestly don’t think any of us wants to be without reactions and at least part of my point is that anger might be appropriate at certain moments.Still I would not exactly describe you as “ zen”…. nor am I . You seem to be spinning a bit into this place of catch 22’s and coercion that has little to do with this discussion. I also don’t understand why my comment about weighing who has the most pain is connected to non- falsifiability except possibly as diversion. Suspicious of what ? People tend to be a mix of broken ankles and gaping wounds and yes we do intakes but choosing the therapist or evaluating the amount of pain each person suffers from is only the smallest part of the picture. I simply meant and said that there is a point where we are not as focused on deciding where someone else might be internally. Remember there are a million factors that contribute to who we are. Vivian used to ask “ Was there one loving person in your life ?” . She asked that because those things can change the course of a life completely. For instance maybe the guy with the gaping wound has a loving family surrounding him while the broken ankle has no one. You can see how the story can begin to look quite different. Two final comments. Personally I would always prefer someone get angry directly than anything passive aggressive. Lastly your list of who you would let in your imaginary gate seemed to include only those who would say what you wanted to hear at the moment. It can change quite easily. I would urge you to let everyone in even those who say things you might want to avoid. Gretchen
I’m going to try to respond more in depth to you and Vicki a bit later (emphasis on the word “try” as I have a whole host of other things I gotta work on).
You said you would prefer someone being angry directly rather than being passive aggressive.
I can’t help but think of this predator who has my home completely surrounded, and his screaming at me on my front porch jumping up and down….damaging the floorboards, bringing whole 220 pound frame on it. Are you talking about THAT sort of anger? You’d prefer that to passive aggressive tricks?
Yeah, calm people indeed!
This conversation has exploded WAY beyond my original intended scope. I appreciate everyone’s attention and concern, though. The original focus was to address Renee’s old incredulousness when I explained how I calmly list the reasons I might be irritated by those I still like.
Here’s the proof:
(No, I don’t want to rehash anything with Sylvia here. That water’s completely under the bridge)
Instead of going into a long spiel about my driving record and how calmly I drive, I should have ‘cut to the chase’ and simply presented that post from January 31st as a good example.
My mistake for being too lethargic to research it.
Ugg, I am not feeling incredulous toward you. I am actually feeling a lot of warmth and empathy toward you, particularly when you try and convince us and yourself that you really are a mostly calm person. I think you have a lot of shame about the parts of you that are angry, aggressive, violent, agitated and infuriated. It is so much easier to pretend you don’t have these sides than acknowledge and get curious about them and the purposes they serve. I can relate to having shame about parts of myself, along with having ingenious ways to avoid this feeling.
For me to feel incredulous toward you, you would need to go much further than just defend and deny—these ways of coping only make you human. You would need to take it upon yourself to educate/preach/lecture others about anger and the right and wrong ways of expressing it, without ever sharing your own significant personal struggles with this issue. Now, that would make me incredulous!
Renee, I hope you don’t interpret what I am about to say as being oblivious to your warmth, empathy, and your core message; I’m concerned that if we did a deep, multi-faceted dive with all you’re talking about right away, the ensuing verbiage would provide a rich and distractive cover getting in the way of seeing what Gretchen’s and Art’s own neighbor situations have been like. Let’s wait and find out what she has to say first.
By and large, anger is an ugly and scary emotion. It can tear up fragile beautifully-woven life tapestries designed from a peaceful place, causing precious things to be irretrievably lost which can regretfully never be taken back once the anger subsides.
Anger is intention contaminated with helplessness.
A clever, regal noble badass would never be helpless, and therefore never angry. All that would be needed is to outwit one’s target of ire instead of being an ugly, stark-raving barbarian.
OK, there’s some surface work.
Now as for Gretchen and Art’s neighbors? Have they been surrounded by predators too?
That’s a lot of verbiage, Ugg. But also very rich and filled with imagery. This is what I think you might be saying below the surface;
My anger is an ugly emotion
A scary emotion
It has torn up my fragile internal life
And the peaceful places I have inhabited
My anger is contaminated with helplessness
It causes me to lose precious people and things
That I can never get back after it subsides
My anger feels like that of an ugly stark-raving barbarian
When I take a deep dive into it
I become oblivious to warmth and empathy
Convinced
That I am surrounded by predators
But it is only the anger within me
Projected outward
And reflected back
My ugly and scary anger
My stark raving barbarian anger
That refuses to be outwitted
And
Renders me
Helpless
This is not a bunch of imaginary product from my anger. I’ve already shown picture proof of the situation to Larry, Bernadette, Sylvia, and Phil. I also sent Gretchen the photos as well, but it’s unknown whether she viewed them.
You and Vicki are more than welcome to see them. It’s not imaginary bullshit.
I extend the same offer to Daniel as well. I don’t think Margaret would have much use for it.
Guru, As you know pretty much everyone on this blog has had the experience of either feeling threatened or being threatened at some point in their lifetime, sometimes numerous times. Some have been victims of physical violence. So no I was not referring to the time your neighbor yelled at you on your porch as an example of something I would prefer to passive aggressive forms of communication. I thought I was clear about that. I am simply saying it’s healthier to be direct. Gretchen
Gretchen, you reached a misunderstanding about why I asked you: “I can’t help but think of this predator who has my home completely surrounded, and his screaming at me on my front porch jumping up and down….damaging the floorboards, bringing whole 220 pound frame on it. Are you talking about THAT sort of anger? You’d prefer that to passive aggressive tricks?”
I was being sarcastic in response to your saying you prefer direct anger over passive-aggressiveness. Having that infuriating 2003 porch scene permanently seared into my brain with a white-hot branding iron is NOT something I preferred, so that’s why I sarcastically asked you if you prefer such types of anger which, still to this day 18 years later, leaves me screaming at the wall at a man long dead (‘Fuck you, you fucking smooth talking, silver-tongued, snake oil sack of dogshit. FUCK YOU!’). It has infuriated me so badly it must have bored a hole in my brain.
My family had given him thousands of dollars worth of business AND I’ve had to put up with terrible traffic AND motorcycle noises AND big spotlights shining in my windows AND his destroying the old ladies’ house next door AND his taking over the house on the other side AND his deceptively destroying my hedges under false pretenses AND NUMEROUS OTHER items AND the motherfucker STILL thinks he’s entitled to my fucking HOME jumping up and down on my front porch! What a fucking entitled piece of dogshit!
Why did I get singled out for this nonsense?
How about you, Gretchen, is your neighbor like this?
I don’t feel threatened by anyone on the blog at all. Why should I?
If you’re specifically asking me to ignore the predator situation I don’t know how else I would be threatened at this time. I’m too worn out to continue.
By no means have I listed ALL my grievances with this dogshit predator dressed up in a pretty package. I just now thought of five more items I could easily type down and many more can arrive if I keep thinking about it, but I won’t because I have given out too much detail already and I’d rather drop it so I can stew in anger at the walls once more .
Guru, Maybe just reread what I wrote. I was not saying you felt threatened by anyone on the blog. G.
You never did answer my question. Do you have a neighbor like I do? Maybe Janov had a neighbor like this?
Watching Groundhog Day. again. not sure why my eyes are watering. i’ll figure it out. maybe it is something sweet. like that cute sweet guy going for a sunset rendezvous tonight. she called him back, because he is sweet and handsome.
Guru, The need to be clever and to outwit your “target” as you wrote above is born of the same anger as the raving barbarian. Both can be ugly and are simply expressed in very different ways. The need to target does not come from a lack of anger or a place of calm. It is often an attempt to conceal but completely transparent. As for your question about my neighbors or Arts I will address that in a couple of ways. First I need to say I believe I did talk about what myself and others have experienced in my last post. Again it would be helpful for you to reread. Also I think it would be useful for you to look back and see that no one but you brought up your neighbor or for that matter your driving record. Art is dead and whether he had an argument with a neighbor or how he handled it is not something I would ever feel was my business to discuss on the blog. Plus whatever my answer might be I don’t believe would satisfy what you are really looking for. I’m happy to discuss my life however. As I said in my previous post most people here including myself have felt threatened or violated in a number of ways or have been victims of physical violence. I have had people scream in my face, I have been followed home and while home alone had people try to break in. I have also experienced harassment or bullying by those who think they know me. In the last month my car was broken in to not once but twice. I have had people become physically violent as well . I don’t think it is necessary to go into all the details. I believe your point is that Art and I would not know what it is like to have an aggressive neighbor. It does not matter where you live, bad things can happen. It is arrogant to think otherwise. By the time we arrive at the Primal Institute most of us have been through a great deal. Gretchen
Gretchen, while it is true that you’ve seen your share of wrongdoings placed upon yourself, I’m pissed off about this ‘predatory overhang’ that clings onto my home every day, year in and year out. Even though the things you went through were obviously scary and traumatic, they were transitory in nature rather than some permanent diabolical scheme of some asshole multi-millionaire rubbing his hands with glee at the eventual prospect of claiming my home.
It’s the ‘ongoing-ness’ of it that never lets up. A whole freaking FAMILY is behind this shit!
While it is true that the porch incident from 18 years ago was traumatic, and admittedly transitory. That was a turning point for me, the last fucking straw before permanent enmity and hatred set in.
It’s the same principle as Janov writing about the final shattering Primal scene being the grand finale of gathering years of smaller insults….all wrapped up in a ball of meaning with one centerpiece scene before ‘neurosis’ set in.
Guru,
I think you have some control over this situation with your neighbors. It’s only a permanent thing if you allow it to be.
If something keeps bothering me I think I have to express the associated feelings, but also take whatever actions are possible to fix the problem, even if the solution isn’t ideal, and the decision is difficult.
Phil
Guru,
In fact, you have more control of this situation than your neighbor. You have what he wants.
Phil, yes and no. I am completely powerless over the huge annoyance of constant traffic and crowds day after day just so this snake can rake in millions in revenue.
It’s technically true I am ‘powerful’ in a very narrow sense of the word by helping to prevent these avaricious dogshit creatures from getting what they want, I’d rather not constantly defend against it.
I just want a normal neighborhood like 98% of Americans.
They have so much power over my angry thoughts, renting way too much space in my head for way too long. It’s too expensive for me to leave and find a second home (while still keeping this home in the family).
Phil by the way these people are veritable MASTERS, and I do mean MASTERS!!, at deceptive imagery and gaslighting people for their advantage. Even though I have some power keeping them from grabbing the land I am on, they will make it LOOK, APPEAR as though THEY have the power over me by having built TWENTY-TWO acorn lights all around me. A very harrowing and creepy sight, and it makes it look as though they control everything.
Guru, you can’t really say you’re stuck with bad neighbors when there is a solution available. You could sell to someone other than them.
Is the feeling about how much you like living there? That’s hard for me to see with neighbors like that ruining it for you. Phil
Guru, yet again I will say that your obsession with the rage you feel towards the scum-sucker next door is making your life worse. It’s going round and round, spiralling bigger as it flies in your head. And I’m betting THAT is interfering with your doing the practical things you could do to have a better life while you are simply at the same time stuck next to the m-f-ing asshole. Your mind makes him too important, thereby giving him totally undeserved power over your mind. He is doing his worst, but your obsession with him is helping him hurt you even more. Focus on yourself, and whatever you need to do to make progress in your life. If you can do that, his existence will fade at times, the more you succeed in helping yourself.
And also, follow thru with Gretchen’s suggestions — reread what she wrote, and then reread what she suggested. That will be far better than giving your dickhead neighbor even a second more of your precious life.
Vicki, I would tell my dad how much I despise this asshole and he would say the exact same thing you do, ‘Focus on yourself.”
I feel terribly sad because now you’re being the loving parent my dad tried to be.
In the end I did successfully convert you into my loving parent, didn’t I?
The only suggestion I remember Gretchen making is to open my gated community to everyone, even to those who don’t say what I want hear.
When I walk outside tonight to the post office, I will see these 22 acorn lights bombarding me right in the face.
At least I won the battle of the streetlights after he completely lit up my backyard using city assets.
Can you imagine someone doing that? Calling up the city or using city connections to install two fullblown streetlights to a virtual DAYLIGHT in my backyard without even asking me about it?
IMagine using city connections to install illegal streetlights that didn’t even belong in an alleyway and blowing up the backyard to a full daylight at night. I was in a total fishbowl for 10-15 years not knowing or understanding I was being had.
I was shocked when the city foreman told me, “Oh, we don’t do (install lights) on alleyways.”
I said, “What the hell are they doing there? Do you know?”
Foreman shrugged, “I dunno, but if no one’s paying for them I’ll take them down.”
The foreman was a nice guy. His crew chopped off three streetlights on this block.
Imagine one small block having 22 acorn lights and FIVE streelights.
Now it’s 22 acorns and TWO streetlights due to my efforts battling back.
Fifteen years ago, nighttime looked like nighttime with only two streetlights on this block and NO acorns. The neighborhood was already destroyed by then, but at least I could catch a few stars at night without the egregious light pollution.
Back in December I posted the original video “Jerusalema Dance Challenge” from Angola made in Feb. 2020, which has famously been adapted by dance groups all over the world. The latest is from a cloister of nuns at a monastary in Ireland. Since 1859 the enclosed order limits their interactions with the outside world and devotes their lives to prayer. I love how they have not lost all their ability to have fun, and “cut loose”, as much as they know how.
https://www.classicfm.com/music-news/videos/nuns-enclosed-monastery-viral-jerusalema-dance/?fbclid=IwAR1Z2XZEwa9lzo1Y5uYDm51CICw4zngAtLU_7SlTBQPxDDDOHWft3fZQiy8
Vicki, Love the dancing nuns ! G.
Guru, Ok . Gretchen p.s. yes I looked at your photos, actually we discussed them
Otto,
reading your post it makes me wonder if after all it wouldn’t be a good idea to adopt another doggy.
I seem to remember your wife felt like it, and I am sure there must be a dog out there that would love to be adopted by you as well.
after all you are still alive right now, and will have plenty of time on your hands when you retire.
that bit of extra love and care might be very helpful to carry on carrying on…
of course it would have to be a cat tolerating dog for sure…
just thought I’d express these thoughts as I always feel so bad for you hearing about how bad you feel so much of the time.
but on the other hand I loved every little videoclip with you and the dogs, they are heartwarming…
M and cats
Guru,
I don’t remember you ever mentioned what exactly he was so infuriated about.
can you shed any light on that?
and apart from this example of aggressive threatening fury, don’t you think there is also a point in what Gretchen said, generally speaking, that it is healthier to express in a direct way one’s anger than being passively aggressive without ever expressing the source of it?
of course there can be exceptions, as always, as your neighbors example illustrated, but that does not mean Gretchen can be right about what she said.
in my own experience it can be a real relief to directly express anger, for oneself, much healthier than keeping it all in, and for the one it is directed to, clarity at last.
and yes, your neighbor still sounds like how it should not be done, no physical aggression or threats.
which still makes me wonder about what enraged him to that point.
M
Margaret, i didn’t park my car one day the way HE wanted me to park it. He was not only infuriated by that, but also likely from the sense that he was going near the end of his life without attaining his dream goal of taking my home (fucking piece of shit). He dropped dead of a heart attack about a month after that porch incident, but now his son is a complete replica of the father whose own life mission is the same as the father (grab my home for redevelopment and make his daddy proud in Heaven).
This is about as scamtastic as Warren Buffett and Charlie Munger living three times as long as my mother even though they engaged in the same high level of corporate financial analysis. (Never mind my previous sentence, I wrote it for myself)
Guru, As much space as this issue takes up in your brain and as much anger as you have about it would you consider the possibility that it might serve a purpose? You told Phil it would be too expensive to move away while keeping this house in the family, why would that be your job? It might help to discuss the whole picture. When you previously described your feeling that the neighbors were monitoring your computer for instance was there ever a moment where you doubted that ? In other words would it be more shocking to know you were in their every though or more shocking to find out you weren’t ? Gretchen
Gretchen, I’m going to eat dinner. Keeping my old home is not my ‘job’, it’s what I would WANT to do, at all costs in fact.
I hope Bernadette doesn’t mind this, and it’s not revealing anything personal about her at all, so I will risk it…
She told me I must be here for a reason. Bernadette believes in a God. Both of my parents did, and even though I am a cautious agnostic I can only surmise if there is a God he/she/it/computer simulation/whatever put me here to keep these predators from taking this house.
There were some suspicious signs about the brother checking wireless connections in the neighborhood (proximity is important for wi-fi hacking). Even if he didn’t, it pays to be cautious given what I already know about how these people operate, namely gather all the info they can about you and exploit every last shred gathered to their advantage.
So….pretty much…even if he didn’t hack the wi-fi, so what? Their mission is still the same and I solved any potential problem by shutting it down and using ethernet.
I would love to move away to a second home and make sure this stays in the family. I would get away from the numerous lights, motor noises, headaches, and traffic detritus while still effectively blocking the predator from their Heavenly redevelopment dreams.
This step might be attainable, as it would only require $1-2 million liquid.
There isn’t anyone closely related, left in your family, is there? It really sounds like an emotional thing, a feeling you need to hold on to this house, maybe something to do with your dad, and your mom, and / or maybe wanting to hold on to your anger and get revenge. — but it seems like it is consuming your life, along the way. Maybe you feel it’s what you need to do, anyway.
My closest relatives are second cousins now. I do get along well with them and she changed my diaper as a baby.
Through a twist of survivorship luck, the house is now in her name, but she knew my mother and she still loves me even though I don’t see her often, so there’s that.
She has offered to sell me the house first, she put a lot of work into it with her friends and husband…so she has a lot of affinity towards it too.
She’s well aware of what the predator would do if it was sold to them. Demolition.
In fact, my cousin was the one who saved this house in the 1990’s when the predator’s father wanted to condemn this house,. Now the house is in nice shape due to her efforts.
It shows you how long and terrible this tussle has been. It was way back in 1994 when the predators wanted to condemn this place, and they are still sniping at my heels all around me 27 years later.
1994…Yeah that’s the year I first called Dr. Barry. “I feel like screaming now, Barry, HELP!”
In 1994 I was under the illusion that these predators were really wanting to be friends with me and all they wanted to do was clean up the neighborhood. How laughably naive I was
Guru
You have a different situation than I thought. Your cousin has offered to sell you the house first? It doesn’t seem like it would be attractive with those neighbors, as they come with it. They have been applying pressure and harassment so that you sell the house, but you don’t actually own it. It’s all confusing for me. I understand you’re attached to the house, but that might not be healthy.
Phil
Phil, the cousins will not sell it without my approval. They put a lot of work into it, from people both living and dead.
As I said earlier, I’d be happy to leave if I can make sure it stays in family hands (away from the predator).
Phil? Do you think it’s healthy to apply pressure and harassment over four decades’ time to your neighbors to sell their longtime home? Is it healthier than what I am doing?
Guru, Has she told you who will inherit the house when she is gone? She has children doesn’t she ? G.
She and I have been discussing that quite a bit. She has three children and four grandkids. So worst case would be splitting up ownership among three people once more, where I would have ‘preferential treatment’ if I wanted to buy back in. Their grandfather was born in my bedroom.
Guru,
I don’t see the point of that comparison with your neighbors. Maybe from their perspective everything is different. Could it be that the acorn lights were for the squirrels?
Vicki’s right, though, I’m having a terrible time removing this topic from my mind. How can I? They’re all around me, surrounding me like a pincer ready to snap closed. If there’s such a thing as ‘out of sight, out of mind’, how do I keep it out of my mind when I can’t help but have it in my sight every day?
My own deep principles simply say these craven assholes should never be rewarded, not to mention rewarded with my own childhood home? Seriously?
I said the above to pre-emptively answer any suggestions to leave and never look back.
“Anger is an acid that can do more harm to the vessel in which it’s stored than to anything on which it is poured.” ~Mark Twain
Bingo, Guru!
Ugg, I agree with Phil. I think your attachment to the house is confusing and unhealthy. Perhaps keeping the house is a way to keep some kind of attachment to your mother.
I also think that there might be some other things going on underneath this conversation. I think you are letting us all know the impact of the sudden and confusing loss of your mother at such a young age. You’re letting us know so clearly the helplessness, rage, and confusion that that event left with you with and has inadvertently been recreated for the past four decades…….by your continuing to live in an unsafe world with scary predators who are out to harm you. Sadly, this has become intolerably tolerable for you. Here on the blog, it seems you have found lots of surrogate mommies who are trying to fix your problems and help you feel safe. A tiny band-aid for the almost lifetime you’ve had of not having your mother. I would be very surprised if you took the advice of any of these surrogates because I don’t think it’s what you really want.
At the same time, I’m noticing that the people who are the most invested in helping you here are mostly women who grew up in families where there were males who we felt needed our protecting and/or care-taking in unsafe circumstances! In other words, I think that what is happening here is colluding at it’s best. Or worst. I can’t decide.
Are you sure you didn’t mean ‘coddling’ instead of ‘colluding’ in your last sentence? I don’t think there’s anything wrong with giving comfort to the afflicted. So what? It’s not as though the mommy figures are out gaslighting or trying to condemn houses.
I was joking with Vicki about converting her into a loving parent. Sylvia has been very helpful here, too.
I have been hugely touched by their actions. There’s nothing wrong with wanting to be caring and nurturing towards others. As long as they do it from their own volition and don’t feel obligated, I don’t see anything wrong with it.
Yes, Guru Ugg, I have to agree with you; no collusion on my part. In fact, that first year we were buddies you helped me more, I think, helping me to come out of my shell and to interact with someone. In my fragileness of having poor defenses, it was nice to talk with someone who had good defenses and was friendly.
S
Sylvia, I often wonder if our best times buddying was before I discovered dad’s cancer diagnosis in March 2018? Things might have changed in our buddying as I underwent increasing stress and neediness over that.
I’m glad I was able to help out for a while, at least.
Trying to describe the strength of our defenses is a super tricky topic. Feels too overpowering to address.
Guru, I can only describe my defenses as poor, I was easily overwhelmed and there were times I could not read anyone’s post on the blog, it was so full of pain. You seemed to have it together and were not overwhelmed and had good structure in your life.
I think in the end we expected different things from the primal process. Though I learned a great deal about you, and you learned about me, I think I wanted to share my techniques to help you get to more of your feelings. Watching movies and listening to music did it for me, but it was not helpful to you, so I did not know how to engage you more in the process. I don’t know if you were as interested either as you seemed to be okay with not much time to ferret out the past to help with the present, so to speak.
I did not think your dad’s illness or passing had much to do with our going our different ways. I think you felt all that could be felt. I didn’t see any neediness and thought you came thru as well and as feeling as any who have lost a parent. I admired how you were able to go thru the funeral and ceremonies with your cousin’s help. I could not have done it.
Much later I did pin you down about how you felt about primal and that you were not serious about it being able to help you, and you said, “What if I was serious about it in the future?” And I asked you what you really thought now, and you said you thought if someone had just told you how things worked, had given you the attention you needed to explain that the world values profit over human life, you would have been okay as a teen and not so confused. It seemed to me that you needed what you didn’t get as a teen, extra support, maybe not with just the cold cruel facts of how the world works, but more empathy for your confusion. I think the battle with the big companies is still a blame and somehow is a proxy for the pain you must be feeling for your loss.
My only hope was that you could feel some of your rejection, like we all have, in movies or trying out some social situations that brings up feelings for all of us. I thought you deserved to have a social life since you would not be looking after your dad and would be on your own. I do think you were more interested in financial security, which we all have to be. My only contribution would be to help with the feelings that interaction with others might bring up if you needed someone to listen.
I began to have my own problems with my health a couple yrs ago and needed to focus on that. I did not see a willingness from you to attend to your social life, so I thought we would be going down different paths, altogether, with differing needs. I know I have explained some of my frustrations before to you, so that was part of it, too. I am glad we were buddies because it did help me to grow in accepting help and in offering help, and I hope it helped you, too.
S
It’s amazing what you’ve accomplished without the help of formal Primal Therapy Sylvia. You seem to be a very perceptive soul. I’m glad that you found a way to move forward with your life, and that you and UG were a help to each other.
Why thank you, Larry. You all on the blog have helped me, too. Glad you are all here.
S
Sylvia, I don’t feel quite ready to approach certain aspects of your writings yet as I want to scrounge up some dinner from spare food parts. I wanted to address one thing right away, though. I asked you, “What if I take therapy seriously later?” half-jokingly, but the serious part was my actually moving back to California to seek full-blown therapy once more at a later date. The buddying we did as I see it, were two lost souls groping around in the dark unguided and trying our best regardless.
You said a couple things I really enjoyed: We are all unfinished projects and you were amazed how anyone makes it past 50 years of age given the craziness and dangers of the world. When you said that I considered asking you if you would take me into your home as one of your cats so I, too, can lead a simple life in the wilderness with a caring mommy figure (you) and not have to worry about bills anymore.
Renee, I will tell you one huge problem I had with Art and why, by extension, I have some disagreements with your post.
In his book, and as we all know, he said he helped thousands of patients face their pain. What he DIDN’T say was that making such a thing happen requires tens of millions of miles of life risking automobile driving to make that happen.
All this driving and the ensuing sudden disability/mortality risks formed the logistical backbone from which Janov could properly use to build his medical knowledge base.
I won’t go after him on that in particular, but when I lose my mom literally to the same high-velocity forces he critically needed to put together his own knowledge base stemming from the experiences of thousands of patients having to travel long distances, then I would personally find it a bit galling to have him say how neurotic it is for me to need mommy figures since it was directly a part of the automotive-oriented risks he didn’t have to bear the brunt of and from which he only benefited from by having thousands of people collaborate in a centralized location for his studies.
I’m saying all this so you can begin to understand why I found the mommy analysis somewhat irksome.
(By the way, I’m hugely aware there are thousands of corporations out there more dependent on automotive travel for their prosperity than Janov ever was. I’m only trying to plumb some of the deeper reasons why Renee’s analysis irked me a bit.)
I don’t want to get in a fight about this post today. I only posted it so one can see a bit of how I think. I’m not interested in going after Art in particular; only trying to make a general point.
It’s like what Renee said earlier…she finds it dubious when people lecture others on how to be angry or when to show anger, but will never relay their own struggles with it.
“Life is very short and there’s no time. For fussing and fighting my friend”, this from the refrain of “We Can Work It Out”, Beatles, 1965. This is a “rare” song that both John Lennon and Paul McCartney contributed equally. There were a few in the beginning, but usually the majority of any “Lennon/McCartney” song was either John or Paul.
But in this song Paul wrote the verses such as “Try to see it my way…” where as John wrote the refrain. John was quite right. Life if very short for fussing and fighting. For him, life would be very short, being gunned down at age 40 in the Babylon of New York City.
It seems evident to me that all participants here are on the same team, that is the team that accesses feelings via either the emotions or thoughts, either being equally effective for bringing more light to the intimate primal feelings, the one that the “inner child” is calling us to listen to. When that feeling child gives up hope of being heard, then it concludes it will never be heard and death ensues.
Please keep in mind I am INTENSELY aware that megacorps such as Wal-Mart, Kohl’s, Berkshire Hathaway holdings, etc. all depend on mechanized high-velocity transportation for their prosperity to a much, much greater extent than Janov. Unfortunately it leads to the ruination of many others.
Guru,
You might want to consider living in a place where owning a car isn’t a necessity. I’m thinking of large cities with good public transportation systems.
I deserve to shamelessly drive a Bentley, not deprive myself of a car especially since I was on the serious losing end of an automotive system which brought staggering prosperity to others.
Guru, that seems contradictory.
I don’t think so at all. This is an irredeemably selfish car-centric society, so live it up! Larry’s driving around in a new truck and he wasn’t even orphaned by automobiles. Why would you lecture someone who has been orphaned by such technology to not have a car at all? It doesn’t make sense.
Sorry, maybe ‘lecture’ is too strong of a word. You ‘suggested’ it without harshness.
Guru, I’m just pointing out it isn’t consistent with other things you say. Your feelings about cars and car culture, and the statistics you sometimes cite.
I don’t care if it’s contradictory. It’s time for me to be utterly selfish too.
Just because I caught the hellishly wrong end of an automotive system to the tune of tens of millions of dollars doesn’t mean I should be a martyr even though I complain about it. Now if EVERYONE ELSE gave up their cars I will happily follow suit. I don’t want to be a self-immolating Zen Buddhist about it when all the others who DIDN’T have the bad side of autos happen to them are still selfishly driving their Cadillacs.
When I think of how Vicki, Sylvia, and Gretchen wanted to patch my ‘mommy wounds’ with a band-aid it’s still touching and it only tells me they have the capacity to genuinely love someone, that’s all.
Why was Art responsible for people who chose to put their lives at risk by driving to get therapy?
Too much potential complexity in trying to directly tackle that. What I was saying was something different: Picture the automotive system as a bit of a lottery. The ‘winners’ of this lottery would be centralized businesses or other entities needing lots of people to drive to them in their cars, thus it lends the centralized entity great prosperity. The ‘losers’ of the lottery would be those killed or maimed in their cars.
What irritated me about Art his saying someone like me would be highly neurotic being motherless by accident. It’s like a lottery winner telling someone who lost the lottery beyond their control, “Ha, you’re a neurotic loser!”
Speaking of car crashes & southern California…here’s something that just happened a few hours ago at the US-Mexican border in southeast CA. Over a dozen people killed:
https://abc7.com/multiple-fatalities-reported-after-crash-in-holtville/10382788/
Why is Art responsible for you feeling like a neurotic loser?
Renee, the way you framed this question is semi-irritating because I was using “ha, you neurotic loser!” as a general impression I gathered from him. An impression, not a feeling. I was using the phrase in a lottery analogy.
There were certain things I felt he may not have adequately acknowledged in his literature, such as the role of luck or structural economic cruelties in life, or how the truths as he saw them were completely immutable. I just found all of this “I’m the boss with the deepest understanding of humanity who ever existed” irritating, so I went to Vivian’s place instead.
I had some old papers around, really good papers by Fred Farrar, who had similar critiques of Janov casting most of us as neurotic half-wits as I did, though Farrar still greatly valued the therapeutic process itself. I think I still have those papers in an old file somewhere.
Just be sure to buckle up. NEVER drink and drive. Drive defensively.
Guru,
I can relate to it being very difficult to let go of a house in which one grew up.
and your home is even more than that, having been in the family for long, and having been your mom’s family home.
from the age of 4 I grew up in a house from 1778 in a very nice area, all trees and grasslands around, a quiet cobble road going back to the Romans in front, where the number of passing cars was about 3 or 4 a day back then…
the thing is over the years, specially from the late seventies early 80s on, there were a lot of developments a bit further down the road, which changed in a very busy traffic road, cars racing by continuously, the road also having taken a large chunk away from our front yard and the part next to the house.
there was still a lot of yard left, and also green areas in the back of the house, but the noise of the ongoing traffic right in front of it spoiled most of the attractiveness, no fun anymore sitting out in the garden etc.,, and dangerous to try and cross the street….
still it was hard to imagine letting go of that place, even if my mom only rented it, my dad having deceased and us kids living elsewhere.
finally about 4 years ago or so mom moved to the nursing home nearby, and we had to say goodbye to our childhood home and all its connected memories.
it is still there, stood there empty for a few years, with the garden my mom had created gathering plants and flowers everywhere on her walks, into a lush wild garden, and now the garden had grown on its own into one out of a fairy tale, flowers everywhere…
once on a walk we went in there, in the garden, with mom, and it was nice.
now my brother said the landlord is finally renovating the place, which will keep its appearances more or less as it is classified as cultural heritage.
but I can imagine how the idea of moving out for you is beyond consideration, even if rationally you can think of the advantages of living elsewhere quietly.
could you take that step if for example one of your cousins would move into your house so it would remain in the family and you could still visit it?
just curious, as to whether the house remaining intact and in the family is the main issue or whether you living there is.
it must be hard to find any peace of mind being surrounded with intrusive unwanted buildings and light poles.
I wonder if you would not feel better taking with you some basic stuff you love and cherish and move out to another place, but I do understand it would be a major step to take and painful.
in my own experience it was hard to see the realty of my old home get further and further away from how it was in the past, with all the traffic and noise spoiling the outdoors completely.
even inside the house the traffic noise was often irritating…
it is sad to witness how old beauty gets spoiled, it happens all over the world, too many people, too much traffic, too much greed…
hope you can let go of some of your anger instead of allowing it to eat you away bit by bit.
hope you can accept present reality even if you don’t like it, as it seems not about to change for the better soon.
take care, M
I’m glad you have such a deep appreciation for such old niceties, Margaret. I really liked your post, thank you. I don’t mind modern things at all, but once historical provisions are destroyed they can never be reversed.
I felt terrible when ISIS destroyed ancient Palmyra, it’s irreversible and new things can always be built elsewhere anyway.
Margaret, by the way my cousins are hundreds of miles away so it would be unlikely they would move here. I am the family watchdog here, basically.
I do think it would be a good first step to live in another area and make sure the house is safely kept out of the predator’s hands. I’m OK with that.
I actually have the opposite feeling about my childhood home. I could never have lived there again, even considering it’s excellent location and convenience. My father wanted it kept in the family, as he had it built. He finally sold it realizing it wasn’t going to happen. When I go back there now to see it, a lot of feelings can come up, but it’s not the same place I remember from childhood. A lot of things have changed in town over the years, not to my liking.. Also, I’m very glad to have gotten away and lived in much different places, and seen the world, or at least small parts of it.
Phil
Welcome to the human race.
Ugg, my question about why Art was responsible for you feeling like a total loser, was only “semi-irritating”? I guess there’s hope for me yet! Thanks. I think we are alike in the sense that we are equal opportunity critics—our criticisms and judgements of others are equal and similar to the criticisms and judgements we have of ourselves. Rather than seeing Art with strengths and limitations, like all of us humans, he becomes a focus of projections……. “There were certain things I felt he may not have adequately acknowledged in his literature, such as the role of luck or structural economic cruelties in life, or how the truths as he saw them were completely immutable. I just found all of this “I’m the boss with the deepest understanding of humanity who ever existed” irritating”…….and a focus for our ‘less than perfect daddy’ feelings.
Btw, when John Lennon saw the side of Art that you described, he left therapy and moved on with his life. He had better things to do than dwell on someone else’s limitations and how they triggered him. I don’t know if you know the story, but he told it in an interview once. He shared that one day he and Yoko went to the Institute for their session and Art had cameras set up to film them. John asked him what was happening and Art said he would be filming the session and that he often filmed sessions. John said incredulously, “Oh, you just happen to be filming and we just happen to be John and Yoko!” He told Art that he wasn’t going to be filmed “writhing around in pain”. And Art said that “some people are so big-headed!” That’s when he and Yoko walked out and left therapy. And got on with their lives. Imagine that!!
Renee,
I remember reading that interesting story about John Lennon leaving primal therapy. What I wonder is why he didn’t simply request not to be filmed, and that probably would have been accommodated. . Certainly if he made it known that leaving therapy would be a possible consequence..
Phil
Phil, John made it clear that he didn’t want to Art to film them, which he had every right to do. I can totally understand him and Yoko walking out after Art made that comment. Do you think that Art called him later to apologize? Obviously, we don’t know if more happened that John didn’t talk about and we don’t know Art’s side of the story. All I know is that therapists are human too and can behave inappropriately at times. I wonder if Art ever regretted his behavior with John and Yoko that day.
Someone who benefited directly from John’s therapy was his son Sean. I love this song that he did as a tribute to his father; when I hear it, it often makes me cry. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRRF-YIXlGs&t=9s
Renee, years of your postings have shown you are obviously a huge Lennon fan whereas I am completely indifferent to whether he existed or not. I did come close to writing a response when you linked that 1974 song for Otto “Nobody Loves You When you are Down”,
I considered responding, “See, Renee? You DO believe in God. God is a white Western male named John Lennon.”
Even though we might have some common ground regarding Janov and Primalling, it does seem there is a vast chasm between the things which interest you and those which interest me.
Music is not nearly as important to my life as when I was young, though I still listen to instrumentals here and there.
I tend to align with Steven Pinker on the music topic in that it is simply “auditory cheesecake” overall.
Not to get between the conversation between Guru and Renee, but just to address the difference between cognitive psychologist, Steven Pinker, as quoted by Guru that music is “auditory cheesecake”, which I’m not sure what that means even, and the description by Janov in his video, “Overload.”
Janov states that the beat or rhythm of a song resonates with our primitive brain; the emotion of the song is felt by our amygdala where we store feelings, and the words and meaning is processed by and appeals to our cognitive area. I recall when babysitting for my 1 1/2 yr old nephew watching “La Verne and Shirley” reruns on tv of a morning. When the title song came on he would stand and sway to the music, totally entranced by the music. And I have seen toddlers on you tube do the same automatic movement to the beat and to the singing.
I think that is why music for some people can get them into feelings. It can appeal to all 3 levels of our being. The song, “Sukiyaki” makes me feel like I am back in junior high because it appealed to me at that time. Not understanding the words at all, but just the beat and strong emotion of longing in the singer’s voice had an affect on me then and does now.
I like instrumentals, too, like “The Theme From A Summer Place.” I remember watching the movie with my parents at the show and my mom saying to my dad, “I don’t think she will understand any of this (it was an adult movie) and there is no worry,” and so I didn’t understand but liked looking at the people and scenic parts, and I loved the song.
S
I agree I didn’t explain enough about what Steven Pinker meant. He referred to music as a “spandrel”, which is an optional decoration.
Anyway, I just thought Pinker was intriguing in that he’s somewhat ‘anti-music’ and a cognitive psychologist, which is the opposite of Dr. Bernfeld who’s into music and feelingful items….yet they have similar hairstyles and superficial resemblances leaving me thinking, “Wow! He must be Barry’s evil cousin?”
Leave it to a cognitive psychologist to reduce music to a commodity to be consumed! Or an optional decoration! He totally overlooks the importance of music in the auditory brainstem, the amygdala, memory, regulating emotion, reducing stress, exercising, etc. All the cool stuff that happens underneath the cognitive brain. On the other hand, while I have eaten cake with my eyes before, I have never considered that I could also eat it with my ears. My mother makes the best cheesecake in the world. Next times she makes it, I will see how long I can eat it with my ears before I dive in with my taste buds.
I do have some basic survival cooking skills beyond the simple microwave oven, and I know what an enormously painstaking hassle it is to make a cheesecake from scratch. Kudos to your mom for that. Cheesecake is beyond the point where I simply say the labor is not worth it, just buy it at the grocer.
By the way, I forgot to mention the other week I do agree with you that pizza is a great comfort food taking rough edges off of life, especially a thicker fluffy crust pizza.
today I felt more depressed as when I tried opening my present course website of the Open University to try filling in some test questions about the content of the course, it would not work with my regular browser, Safari.
luckily after a while I decided to mail my mentor of the university, mentioning other technical problems and after coming home from visiting my mom, I found her encouraging reply.
she mentioned some solutions, added some information, and told me we could meet in the study center next week if necessary to try other options.
it was so supportive I immediately felt better and I replied I would certainly try her hints out tomorrow when feeling more rested.
but after a while I decided to give it a go anyway, and to try for the first time to use Google Chrome and hurray, the website opened, after some hurdles of course, and more important, this time I could open the pages with testing questions, fill them in and get the proper feedback with the answers I needed and the links to more information.
so I let my mentor know how good her tips already have been, and how much she encourages me with her support.
so I feel much better again, about myself , my capacities and possibilities and life in general…
asking for help seems so crucial and I seem to have gotten so much better at it, and my mentor is really great, and she loves cats too, smiley…
M
That’s great, Margaret, that you reached out and your mentor could be of help. Yes, a bonus, too that she cares about cats. Sounds like you are progressing well with your studies.
S
Sylvia,
well, it does not feel like I am making good progress, it felt for a while like I might have to stop as it was useless and too many technical problems….
the module I started last year, one of the 7 statistics modules, was a practicum with supervision of the prof, but Corona interfered and the alternative did not work for me at all.
I hoped it might pick up again in autumn but then our second Corona wave started and I gave up altogether on that course for now.
then i started the actual one, about the relations between humans and animals.
but the website of the course had had updates and of course it all just became much more complicated to navigate it with the screen reader software.
I had not done much about it the last few months, except making a file for myself about an article we had to read, a summary.
so now I finally wanted to pick up the course more seriously again and it really was a bummer to technically get stuck repeatedly.
it reinforced a feeling of powerlessness and of not being able to cope, until I reached out for help and thanks to the encouraging feedback tried out some of it despite it being out of my comfort zone.
but it worked so well to do that as it gave me a real boost when I managed to tackle several of the technical hurdles!
it made me feel I should not give up hope too easily, there is help around, friendly people, and they enable me to do more than I thought I could.
it is specially great as the study gives some direction to my life, just a feeling of moving forward even while it has no immediate practical use.
I don’t want to feel stuck in a corner all by myself without any hope for any moments of happiness or satisfaction.
I crave more fun in my life, excitement and laughter…
but now it is not so bad anymore, after the hopelessness has diminished significantly for now!
just one thing, the studying, that has not come to a grinding stop yet!
slow but still moving…
what do you do to feel ok, Sylvia, what gets you through the days and can make you feel good?
I always love your comments!
M
In answer to Guru’ twitter picture of the lady on the couch, makes you wonder what she found out, what she knows. Looks like she stayed there the whole day in a stunned but no-fight-left acceptance of something. Like she’s still processing it in a hibernating phase.
How you interpret it, Guru–that’s what is important.
S
When I lay down (floor, bed, bathtub, couch) It’s extremely common for me to spend anywhere from 30 minutes to 2 hours trying to convince myself to stand up once more.
It’s a battle against gravity and trying to convince myself it’s really worth it to continue.
I’ve enjoyed a 100% success rate so far.
Margaret, I think good rest and sleep helps me get out of a funk or talking to someone who is supportive. My brother has come through for me several times as he sees things more objectively and is sometimes a good sounding board. Just putting my thoughts into word sounds, communicating, being listened to helps.
I think it’s good that you keep the studies going because they will surely lead to something in the therapy field for you. That’s great you are volunteering for the hotline. You probably think about those callers long after the day is over. It has to be satisfying knowing you made their day easier and gave some sense and structure to their emotions and validation to their feelings.
Thank you for your support a couple weeks ago in my “tussle.” Still at this age seems we can be kids needing to be liked for what we say or to know if it will be accepted. Hi to your cats!
bowfinger. i’ve watched it many many times. that was what i wanted to be. a film-maker. but i was too much of an introvert and a drunk to succeed. my script was puerile. my knowledge of hollywood was zip.it was my dream. it was shattered when barb’s dad got sick and it all ended just like that.
The Mathematics Genealogy Project is a charming idea, a sort of a map of connections between mathematicians and their doctorate students. In their home page they show, as an example, the genealogy of a few great mathematicians. But there are only three women in that tree: Sofya Kovalevskaya (Differential Equations), Olga Taussky-Todd (Algebra and matrices), and Emmy Noether (which for International Women’s Day I’m going to celebrate).
Amalie Emmy Noether was born in 1882 to Max Noether, a mathematician in his own right, and his wife Ida Amalia. After graduating from high school, she was trained to teach French, as other fields she was drawn to, such as mathematics, were closed to her as a woman. However, she never taught French. Instead, she made the decision to audit math classes at her hometown Erlangen U. Among almost a 1,000 students at the university Emmy was one of only two women.
Participating in class proved useful because Emmy’s teachers noticed that she was their best student, eventually persuading Erlangen U to open the math department to women students. Possibly, her father being a full professor at Erlangen didn’t hurt. She later wrote her dissertation under the supervision of Paul Gordan and then began to teach at Erlingen U without pay and mostly without credit as she taught classes other (male) professors were registered as teaching. Studying for women was one thing, becoming faculty was out of the question.
But her work was too genius to be overlooked and after several years she was invited to Göttingen by David Hilbert and Felix Klein. There too she was not accepted as faculty and for several years worked without pay and under her male colleagues’ name. Still, this was one of the greatest math departments of the 20th century and it was there she proved what to this day is known as Noether’s theorem, which is considered one of the most important theorems in math and physics. She also formulated proofs that completed Albert Einstein’s theoretical work.
It was only after Germany’s defeat in WWI that women’s rights advanced somewhat (losing wars is beneficial in many ways) and Noether was finally allowed to apply for a kind of tenure, which nevertheless she never really got. Instead, she was appointed to a lesser position that still, even after recognising her accomplishments, wouldn’t pay her for her work and teaching for another year or so. Even when she was awarded a very prestigious award for her contribution to math and was recommended by the rest of the greats in her field she still never made it to full professorship.
In fact, when her colleague Professor David Hilbert of Göttingen U wrote to the ministry of education asking them to secure for Emmy a teaching position at Göttingen “lest she leave for Frankfurt U” the reply he got back was, “Don’t worry, she won’t leave. She will not get any position in Frankfurt either”.
In 1933 the Nazis came to power and in September passed the “Law for the Restoration of the Professional Civil Service” which among other things removed all Jews from German academia. Within a day Emmy Noether lost all she worked for: her academic recognition, her students, and her hard won less-than-fair status.
Life is easier when Einstein thinks highly of you and Emmy got a visa to the US. But even Einstein is powerless when it comes to women, and so Emmy got a position at Bryn Mawr, while being invited to give a weekly seminar at Einstein’s Institute for Advanced Study in Princeton which also wasn’t offering tenure to women at the time.
Bryn Mawr gave Emmy full tenure and finally a deserved salary to match her title, abilities, and accomplishments. But happiness did not last long. In April 1935 Emmy was diagnosed with a tumour in her pelvis. She was operated on, supposedly successfully, but few days later she died from complications.
Emmy’s place in the math pantheon is assured. Albert Einstein summarised the general opinion among scientists: ” In the judgment of the most competent living mathematicians, Fräulein Noether was the most significant creative mathematical genius thus far produced since the higher education of women began”.
In spite of the many difficulties she encountered as a woman Emmy’s achievements were monumental. To this day she is considered one of the greatest mathematicians who ever lived and her contribution to science has been equated with that of Marie Curie.
Daniel, so how do you ‘celebrate’ Emmy Noether’s criminally unappreciated accomplishments? Maybe smoke a joint with her name written on the rolling paper, or what??
OK, OK, OK….I take the imagery of smoking a joint back; I understand how uncouth and crass that question must have been given your efforts of describing Emmy’s life struggles. Reading Noether’s experiences of being ‘imprisoned’ in the lower rungs of academia touched an angry nerve with me because it reminded me of being in a formal academic prison of my own as a teenager, with drug usage being a rebellious rebuke.
All forms of celebration are fine with me. A joint included. My way was to write about her on the blog. By the way, both Emmy and Artemisia had very supportive fathers who believed in them in very unfavourable circumstances, the kind of father each one of us could use (perhaps you had one).
Daniel, I’ll just make four succinct points for the sake of organization:
–You’ve done a terrific job sharing these two stories. You give off a sense of legitimacy and clarity to all of the events within them.
–My own father had his limitations, yet my love for dad is (or was) greater since I know I likely would have done many of the same things he did in similar circumstances as his.
–I only turn to mood altering substances as a last resort when I am extremely frustrated at continuously feeling bad, and not knowing why or how to resolve or at lease alleviate it. Sometimes it may not even be Primally-related.
–Your WordPress skills have exceeded mine now. I have no idea how you were able to post Artemisia’s impressive self-portrait.
I had some big feelings tonight about my brother and about how messed up things were in my childhood home. When I was 5 or 6 and he was 10 or 11, he got sent away to a special school
which was about a 3 hour drive away. He only made it to 5th grade in the town public schools and somehow it was decided he had to be sent away because of emotional problems, and I guess, because our mother was no longer going to be around. None of this was really explained or discussed so that I knew exactly why, but I came to understand that something was wrong with him.
What I do know is from then on, I hardly had a brother. He lived at that school and only visited home for like a week or two for Christmas, and maybe two weeks in the summer. Nor did he get any additional visits from us. We never went anywhere, so a 3 hour drive was a huge trip for us,
That was exciting, but I don’t otherwise remember anything good about it.
Every time he left, or was dropped off, I got a knot in my stomach. It was wrong, and especially
wrong that I got to be at home, while he had to be sent away. It went downhill from then on for
my brother, until he ended up committed insane to the state hospital, and that became his home from then on.
Phil
Phil, since your mother died around the time your brother was sent away, is it reasonable to say what happened to your mom was disintegrative to him?
Before you answer, I will say it would seem reasonable to me given that my own life has become much duller, darker, and degraded over these past two years since dad’s passing.
Guru, our mother was severely ill and left our home at that time, never to come back. But she lived another 5 years in poor condition, physically, mentally, and emotionally, in a nursing home. Of course it had a big effect on my brother, and on me too.
I thought she died when you were 5 years old, didn’t she? She was sent away when you were five and died when you were ten, then?
She was effectively dead, at least for me, when I was 5 or 6, but she lingered on until I was 11. Quite different than what happened to your mother. I don’t think either scenario was good.
That sounds bad for you and terrible for your brother. He must have felt lost being sent away. A 3 hour trip only to be left somewhere without family. Sorry that happened to your family. I wonder what would happen these days with children who had psychiatric problems, if they would stay at home or not.
Daniel, I enjoyed hearing about Emmy Noether. Never had heard of her. Thank you for that. How unfairly in those times were women treated.
S
Sylvia, I think it was a decision made by the town school district, since there was no special ed at that time, and they were required by law to educate him. My family couldn’t pay for it.
Phil
Here’s another one worthy of your attention. The 17th century Artemisia Gentileschi didn’t know how to read or write until she was a young woman, but she sure knew how to paint (she learned to sign her name on her paintings before she knew how to write). In fact, she is considered one the greatest painters of her era and her paintings now hand in the best museums.
Her story is unusual not only because in an era when women were rather unable to pursue an artistic career, she managed to produce outstanding artistic accomplishments. Her command of texture, colour, light and shadow was masterly and the women in her paintings were unlike those painted before – much more natural looking. It was also unusual because one morning in March 1612 Artemisia (actually her father) filed a formal complaint in Rome against her painting teacher Agostino Tassi who raped her and against another man who was an accessory to the crime, and testified in their trial. This was extremely rare and courageous, especially as her family had little social standing.
About a year ago the National Gallery in London planned an exhibition for her paintings. COVID-19 intervened so the public is yet to visit it. However, the gallery has a fantastic website dedicated to Artemisia, her works and her story, including notes from the actual trial.
Here is a self-portrait:
Daniel, one of the key themes which hurt me the most about losing dad has been ‘hoping he knows that I loved him’ despite my sentiment being quite clear to him through all our hugs and talks when he was well.
This same ‘I hope he knows I loved him’ seems to be what I was hoping my mother knew. In your earlier analysis of how I coped with the situation, you laid out scene of where I am still pre-verbal (or just barely verbal). I suspect this is where my feelings toward dad were really towards mother in the pre-verbal sense.
In other words, I had a desperation for her to know that I love her, and I will never know that she knows. Of course there was no verbalization of this beyond simplistic, child-like fawning and affection.
I have no conscious memory of her facial or body mannerisms, just pictures, but I wanted to tell you this in light of your saying the only way to proceed may be to apply adult words to a toddler’s experiences with no literal verbal meaning stored away (as in the case of older children) except for what context I can apply right now.
Also, there is a theme of a brutal and draining winter sucking the life out of me. Come the first hints of spring warmth, the brutality feels even worse as opposed to the relief one would expect from the cold. My dad died on the first day of spring of the most brutal winter of his life when the cancer ravaged his wellness. OK, I have to cry now,
*the first day of spring after the most brutal winter…(correcting typo)
My mother’s ending happened right in the middle of winter, and I can just see where dad and I both struggled through that awful season into the first warmth of the following spring, where our hopes for mercy from the new season only made the degradation of our lives more stark and plaintive. A general theme of, “Just because the weather’s warming up doesn’t mean it will get any better, guys. In fact, the new life spring brings is only a reminder of everything moving ruthlessly onward with or without you.”
So in other words the seasonal struggle dad and I had had after mom being gone carried the same echoes as dad’s literal seasonal death struggle just two years ago.
Guru,
Sounds like you were left with trying to make sense of and reach mother through father alone. When reading what you wrote it also felt to me like you were trying your best to protect them and ease their pain with your love. It felt as if, perhaps unconsciously, you harbour a wish to save your mom from her awful fate and your dad from his, and carry some painful guilt for not being able to do so (I say this knowing you must have provided your dad with many moments of joy and the kind of love parents and children feel toward each other).
By the way, like you I also think that the weather may serve as a cue for feelings and moods that connect to life episodes and primal pain.
You say your father had his limitations. Well, who doesn’t?
I learned how to insert images from Phil who explained the method some time ago. What I did was 1) write a new post in my WordPress site, 2) in the body of the post insert the image, 3) publish the post so it will appear in my WordPress site, 4) in the site right-click the image and copy its web address, and 5) paste that web-address into my comment on our blog.
I thought you knew that because you have inserted your family photo into one of your comments before.
Daniel, yes I did successfully post a picture here before….but I simply forgot how it was done. The skill faded away with so much of my focus on other things during the months thereafter.
I still do think about your February 7th posting and I try to make my own additions to it however I can, even if I am being mistaken,
When I was 19-20 years old I was very concerned about my life seriously going in the wrong direction. Something was terribly wrong, I just instinctively knew it, so I took an MMPI psychiatric exam on my own volition. 600+ true/false questions. The results said my answers were ‘highly valid’ (truthful), yet it also said I had “signs of organic brain damage”, “cocaine psychosis” (and I didn’t use it!), and “psychotic levels of depression”.
Taking in what you said last month, namely, “Such a child is still going on being and breaks to that going-on-being are experienced not as pain – with its concomitant narrative, neurotic or not – which can be repressed, but rather as disintegration or dissolution of the self and therefore severe threats to survival itself. ”
It scares me to think that, in order to survive the utterly insane situation of someone who loves me the most in the entire world suddenly and inexplicably leaves me forever while my brain is still in early development, I may have had to butcher huge parts of my own brain to survive the situation….hence the MMPI report of “signs of organic brain damage”.
BTW, I did have an external party administer the MMPI exam so the validity was enhanced in that respect. A few years later I took a “Meyers-Briggs” personality assessment (again, independently administered by an external party) to where it said I had the energy level of a handicapped person.
So basically these tests were implying I had become a passionless zombie with brain damage, Taking into account my high frequency inner ear nerve deafness (hearing is the last sense to go before death) along with yours’ and Janov’s writings, things feel really discouraging sometimes.
I will try not to be overly obsessed with self-reflection, which can be its own impediment in a world where money and power are paramount with our individual lives being easily expendable by the ‘system’, so I will stop here and go back to more mundane daily matters.
Guru,
I wonder how meaningful those kinds of tests are, You can assess yourself whether or not you’re a zombie, If so, there could be Hollywood acting possibilities for you.
You say external parties administered these tests. what would an internal party administering be? A self test?
Phil
Phil, yes I meant a self-test. Largely considered less reliable that way. Imagine high school students self-administering SAT’s, for example.
That’s really interesting, Guru. You don’t come across on this blog as one with brain damage in the usual sense of the expression. But perhaps in the primal sense. Echoing Phil,do you identify with these observations?
I can’t speak for Phil, but let me bring in a couple more salient points:
–Janov wrote that if something severely traumatic occurred to a child before the age of 3, the onset of psychosis is more likely instead of plain garden-variety neurosis. You alluded to these differences in your February 7th posting when contrasting your own hospital story against my experience. So when I read Janov’s writings in this area along with the ‘pyschotic levels of depression’ the MMPI was telling me….it heightened my concern.
–Now as for brain damage, I can only surmise it would have something to do with higher abstract functioning. I generally do well in this area on a baseline level, but both my dad and mom had mathematics degrees and yet I struggle with calculus (algebra is still manageable). Yes, I am also saying this in light of your mathematics genealogy post. I had lunch with an old friend of my dad’s fairly often when I was young. This guy was a Phd in mathematics, yet he told me several times “Your dad’s smarter than I am at this”. As I said before, unfortunately, the very highest mathematics proved to be a struggle for me even though I can perform lower math quite well (ie. I can multiply two-digit numbers by two-digit numbers in my head without a calculator in a few seconds, but when it comes to the chain rule in calculus I start to grow additional thumbs).
Guru,
I think not being exceptional at math, is not a sign of brain damage. If that was the case, then I’m damaged. There was some expectation coming from my mother’s side of the family, with a history of achievement in math and hard science, that I’d go in that direction too. But I didn’t have an interest in that, or the patience. It’s just not for everybody.
Phil
Phil, I know math is not for everybody…and you’re absolutely right about it requiring patience for the average person. Somehow, though, I suspect that if BOTH mom and dad were encouraging me I would have found higher mathematics (differential equations, discrete math, etc.) to be inspiring rather than more of a constricting prison, an abstract road leading to nowhere.
Guru,
It sounds like you feel that neither your dad nor you have reached or utilised your full potential. Probably this is true for most of us. It’s sad that both you and him were robbed not only of your dearest one but also of some of your possible future.
Daniel, those were cool posts you did in honor of International Women’s Day earlier this week. Here is my contribution. It is a 13 min. film that was recently shortlisted for an Oscar in the Best Documentary Short Subject category. Titled “Hysterical Girl”, it tells the story of one of Freud’s most famous case studies, Dora, and how he gaslighted her story. And how this kind of gaslighting continues through today. Take a look: https://www.nytimes.com/video/opinion/100000007026836/hysterical-girl.html?referringSource=articleShare.
For International Women’s Day I preferred to celebrate their triumphs rather than defeats. But to each his own.
The film is a valid feminist-political critique. I thought the writer/director was honest enough in indicating that she is contrasting Freud’s psychoanalytic fiction with her own feminist fiction.
The film belongs to pop culture rather than a serious discussion of mental phenomenon. It’s nice to see but helps not one iota as a clinician.
Daniel, what do you see as “Freud’s psychoanalytic fiction”? And do you not see it as helpful for a clinician to believe their patient who discloses abuse (sexual or otherwise), rather than see it as fantasy/phantasy or something the patient caused?
Just in case you couldn’t open the link, Daniel (and anyone else interested), here it is on Facebook: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFeaI6cwJCI&t=61s. See if you can find some of the underlying themes of gender, power, race, and class.
Renee, I found the film entertaining and creative, and I like how it linked the past to the present. It touches on important issues, but we already had lengthy discussions here about all this. Should we consider this a rerun?
Phil
Phil, I’m glad you liked the film. I do not see any rerun. I simply wanted to balance Daniel’s contributions to International Women’s Day. His focus was an individualistic and historic one. I wanted to point out that it is also collective, on-going and intersects with other issues, such as those of race, class and power. When you listen to Andrew Coumo, do you believe his denials of sexual harassment or not? When you listen to Megan Markle’s accusations against the royal family, do you believe her or not? Listening and believing women who speak truth to power is an inherently political and personal act. You can’t support International Women’s Day if you tend not to believe women when we speak up against inequality, oppression and abuse. That would be hypocritical.
I’m somewhat of a mindset that television is a celebrity clown show and it doesn’t matter what us little ordinary peons believe. It’s all driven by advertising revenues.
I had a funny discussion with a primal buddy about the one-sided nature of television and/or social media.
If 100 million people spent 5 minutes each focusing on Prince Harry or Megan Markle, or any other giant celebrity…a total of 500 million minutes of aggregate attention will have been paid to that individual with nothing given in return.
This adds up to 347,222 days of aggregate attention paid to the person, or 951 years’ worth of attention from one person. So in order to equalize 5 minutes’ thought from 200 million people, you would personally have to have you, your child, your grandchild, your great-grandchild, great-great grandchild, great-great-great grandchild, along with 25 succeeding generations of your descendants devoting their entire working lives paying attention to this celebrity person with absolutely nothing given in return.
This is why we laughingly called television an attentional ‘super mosquito’ on society.
*I meant to write ‘to equalize 5 minutes’ thought from 100 million people’
Back in November I bought a set of live recordings by Louis Armstrong, and I’m finding myself focusing on a song “Someday”. It has been helping me to open up some memories, and now I believe I saw him perform it on TV when I was 4. I’m sure it would have been something my parents were interested in. My mother was a good piano player, but I don’t remember hearing her play, she was too ill after I was born. If not for all the ways I was messed up, I have a feeling I would have taken to learning an instrument much sooner. But it’s never too late. Guru, you can still learn higher math, if that’s what you want. Phil
For those of you who are following the Meghan and Harry story, as I am, you might find this article interesting. I think the narrative of them switching from one aristocracy to another, along with descriptions of the British vs. the U.S. aristocracy, to be quite accurate and insightful: https://novaramedia.com/2021/03/08/harry-and-meghan-quit-the-royal-family-to-join-the-american-aristocracy/. Here’s my favorite quote from the article. It is also an appropriate quote to honor International Women’s Day, earlier this week: “Perhaps it is a coincidence that, when two women posed a threat to the smooth running of the royal machine, they found themselves demonised according to the classic tropes of female misbehaviour. Diana, the aristocratic English rose, was cast as the Victorian hysteric; Meghan, mixed-race and American, emerged as a bully and an angry Black woman.”
How come Kate Middleton is not having any serious problems here? Diana and Meghan could have refused to marry into the royal family with all its advantages and hassles, couldn’t they? I think it’s reasonable to be expected to adhere to customs and traditions of a world-famous and fabulously wealthy family whose known lineage stretches back 1,000 years or more…(all the way back to Alfred the Great and the minor royalty preceding him)
Maybe I am blockheaded and/or I am missing something, but no one said Diana or Meghan had to play the royal family game. It would seem hugely arrogant for me to marry into such an old and established family and expect them to conform to MY preferences as an outsider.
I will admit, though, if a royal family member took an interest in me it would be enormously difficult to refuse (for whatever reason I felt refusal was correct). The social pressures from family, friends, etc. to marry would likely be super intense, and I would be looked at as a total ‘clod’ or ‘turkey’ by refusing the hand of royalty, maybe even treated as a leper.
I also feel it would be inappropriate to have to make that decision under such intense pressure, so I do extend a small measure of sympathy there.
Given the vast financial resources of the royal family, I think a modest ‘notoriety fee’ of, say $50,000-$100,000 or so, would be appropriate for those who spurn royal advances. The fee would rise as the relationship became more serious, yet still broken off before marriage.
This would help compensate for the emotional trauma of media notoriety and the pressure of having many people dislike you for your decision not to marry.
100 grand is chump change to the royals, so 250-500K would make sense here, too, I think.
Naivete ?? That nebulous inference, ” love.” How does an historically incestuous colonizing family who contributes nothing to the benefit of society get to held as famous ? Infamous, maybe.. Christian Manifest Destiny… dethrone, liquidate their assets and fund equality programs. Diana and Meghan at least found the strength to act out against the machine. North Americans would do well to grow some intelligence, “cojones,” neuter and dethrone the mega wealthy and unlock and redirect the power of their obscene wealth. Some people are comfortable with selling their self serving souls, others genuinely too stupid to see the evils.
I’m sure glad we don’t have royalty in this country, why do we focus on those in another country. So what, they’re not getting along, maybe they need therapy. What are they good for anyway.
Phil
People need unifying beacons of identity and leadership, however flawed, to anchor themselves to?
Oh but we do Phil, that 1%; we lower caste are Nations/Legions of , ” carpenter ants,” here to provide the opulence enjoyed by royalty…. (:
Daniel, I don’t know you, and it is anti intelligent why anything you express should annoy me. But it is like fingernails scraping a blackboard. I interpret you as being full of superiority, telling us the one and only, ” HOW IT IS,” educating we less knowledgeable, ignorant, peons. So I’m pissed off from your first sentences and have to use effort not to discount every sentence that follows. Even your Jack, ” IMHO,” reference seems disingenuous, not to say you don’t believe you honour it.
Consistent with my sentiments. Meghan , ” fell,” for Harry in a common Pub, not a Royal cocktail do. ” Love,” certainly cast a veil over my better judgement. Repeating the, ” joining aristocracy,” would seem to hinting at one of those blind drivers. I certainly have a bunch. “We ALL know,” they have to be who they are, including what to me would be choosing remaining trapped.
Sadly, for my possible creature comforts, I was drawn to the walking wounded not the aristocracy. WHAT was I thinking ?? (:
Renée,
By “fiction” I mean we can’t open somebody and find Id, Ego and Superego, thoughts or fantasies. We can’t see repression, trauma, primal pain or Janov’s three lines either. These are all conjectures and a sort of notation for something we observe. So, for example, we can’t see a superego, but we do discern a critical/moral pole in the individual which we then may decide to call superego. We can’t touch an Id but can observe wishes that propel people forward toward action. We can’t see trauma (or a fantasy for that matter) but may observe the person behaving in symbolically traumatic manners.
I see it as not only helpful but necessary for clinicians to believe their patients. It is necessary because unless there is an atmosphere of openness and trust, a working relationship, nothing will be achieved. However, it’s not a binary world where you either believe a patient or think he or she is fantasising. Therapy is neither a whodunnit nor a morality tale. No matter what happened to the patient in the past fantasy is always present. It is active in the present and mediates the past into the present in myriad ways. In therapy it’s important to discover those ways, the particular personal fantasies that influence that particular person’s present actions, thoughts and feelings.
This question is much wider than whether a certain abuse took place or not, it covers the entire content of the patient’s thoughts and feelings as they are expressed in therapy. In other words, when the patient describes a parent or a sibling or a spouse, or an interaction with these, is that an accurate description? Is the patient’s mother/brother/wife, for instance, really was or is the person the patient is describing?
As for Freud and Dora, the point isn’t whether he believed her or not. As that film admits, he did. Unlike the film, which is a political op-ed, the Dora case, flawed as it was, is a deep essay into the human psyche and the unconscious. We may disagree with the way Freud treated Dora, and I for one do (as did he), but the principles and genius of his thinking are very instructive.
As a tribute to our missing Jack I should add that this is my opinion, and that Freud’s thinking is instructive to me.
Daniel, I fully agree with your last paragraph—I do think these are all your opinions and that Freud is hugely instructive to you. The problem, for me, is that everything you write before that comes across as if you are stating the Facts, with a capital F, rather than simply a sharing of your opinions. I don’t think you believe for a second that Freud wrote fiction or conjectures. For example, you state that Freud’s id, ego and superego, “are all conjectures of a sort of notation for something we observe.” Who is the “we” that you are referring to? These are ideas of Freud that YOU observe and have meaning to YOU. I think this goes for the all the other “we’s” you use. Your words might have more credibility to me if you didn’t present them as universal truths.
As for clinicians believing their patients…..it shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that I disagree with you when you say, “it’s not a binary world where you either believe a patient or think he or she is fantasising”. I also don’t think it’s okay to simply believe you patients about their disclosures of childhood abuse in order to create an atmosphere of trust, and then, when this is accomplished, to reduce their lived experience of trauma to a footnote, in order to focus on their wishes and fantasies. The way you work reminds me of something a critic of Freud wrote when Freud rejected his seduction theory:
“By shifting the emphasis from an actual world of sadness, misery and cruelty
to an internal stage in which actors perform invented dramas for an invisible
audience of their own creation, Freud began a trend away from the real world
which, it seems to me, is at the root of the present-day sterility of psycho-
analysis and psychiatry throughout the world”.
It sounds like Freud’s work with Dora is similar to how you work….. he believed his client in the beginning to build trust, and then totally shifted the focus to her supposed internal fantasies and wishes. A kind of bait and switch if you ask me. To think this is not political is delusional. This way of working totally maintains and perpetuates the status quo, in my opinion. It shifts the attention away from the very real abuse and violence (subtle and unsubtle) and its effects, to an individual patient’s internal wishes, drives, and fantasies. I can understand Freud needing to reject the seduction theory. It was the late 1800s. His timing was off. He was rejected and alienated by his all male peers, who were invested in keeping things the way they were (especially with regard to women). He couldn’t get any referrals. He had a family to support. But we are in the 21st century now. What’s your reason for keeping this belief system? I don’t understand.
Robert Browning: ” ‘When I wrote it, only God and I knew; now God alone knows!” When clinicians, or anyone, reaches cerebral conclusions about another’s memory facts of life, the caveat I apply to my own, ” guess,” deductions is that I have at least a 100% chance of being wrong. That is not to suggest it is wise or even a sound notion to turn off my, ” bullshit detector.”
When I first studied Freud, when I was 21, I was impressed with his genius. Later, not so much. How much of his thought process was coloured by his own internal lenses ? Was it just honest not knowing or did, ” Dora,” fill a niche of his own needs. What a horrible sentence to believe onself capable of knowing what makes up another’s truth.
I was changed in the early 70’s when a 51 year old patient who related a Dicksonian brutalized life, diagnosed as, ” Chronic Schizoprenic,” visualized and reacted physically and emotionally to a scene from her 4th year. A VON nurse had visited the house where she was imprisoned. She saw the license plate on her car. I noted that, and later phoned that, by then, aged retired nurse. I knew her and that she meticulously recorded her life. She gave me that license plate info from a robin egg blue 1955 Plymouth Valiant. It matched. I was the first person to believe her. It mattered.
My family used the lie that I was fantasizing to discredit my memories. That was one more assault. I came to doubt myself and feared I would be found out to be a liar, a fraud, and further punished. The fear of that imagined conviction sparked the greatest terror I’ve ever known, far worse than the physical and sexual abuse and the assault on my self perception. It also led me to believe others too easily.
There is a professional camp that believes, and promotes with,
” expert,” vigor, that all memories are simply fantasy. Having come to trust my amazing memory I write that off as bogus. Part of that, or perhaps all of my reasoning, is, my little inner voice/brain concludes that the motivation is to empower the supressors to invalidate the recall, including my recall, of the stories.
Right now I’m asking myself why I’m writing this and mildly considering I should delete rather than be exposed as stupid and full of shit. Oh to be one of the gorgeous and intellectual superiors….
On the most intimate level, I’m all I’ve got, so I’d better fucking well look out for me. I’m outside of my head in this moment. What a beautiful feeling. At 75, still have a good brain, independence, vision, hearing, AND a full head of luxurious hair…
Daniel, I also found your comment about fictions interesting. I guess we can’t prove feelings exist either, but we experience them, and observe other people having them. I can distinguish Janov’s 1st, 2nd, and 3rd line feelings from my own experiences. Until you experience them, they are just something theoretical, and yet, to me have more of a basis in realty than Freud’s ego, superego, and id. Those seem more like purely invented concepts.
Phil, you draw attention to something important I didn’t stress enough. There is an essential difference between conscious and unconscious materials. Pain felt and expressed is conscious and have, as you say, more basis in reality. Unconscious pain is not as available for ascertainment and we must deduce or guess its existence from other thoughts, feelings or behaviour of the patient. A primary goal of therapy is to make that pain available for conscious feeling.
The existence of unconscious feelings is fundamental to psychodynamic theories and therapies such as PT or psychoanalysis.
Trying to narrow things down to easily identified specifics from an inarticulately amorphous form of suffering, so to speak.
I would think a therapist has to be careful not to let too many preconceived notions stand in the way, though.
I would find myself to be too frustrated, angry, and impatient to be a therapist and I would have to constantly leave the room to have a ‘reaction’ before returning in a placid state to see the patient once more.
Daniel, I don’t know you, and it is anti intelligent why anything you express should annoy me. But it is like fingernails scraping a blackboard. I interpret you as being full of superiority, telling us the one and only, ” HOW IT IS,” educating we less knowledgeable, ignorant, peons. So I’m pissed off from your first sentences and have to use effort not to discount every sentence that follows. Even your Jack, ” IMHO,” reference seems disingenuous, not to say you don’t believe you honour it.
Well voiced Phil.
Not fun, is the Daylight Savings Time change tonight in the U.S. at 2 am we lose an hour, as we “Spring forward” in our sleep…, hoping not to fall out of bed in the morning, from a short night.
Guru – just for the record – in response to your post on March 1, 2021 at 4:41 pm. When I said that you must be there for a reason, I didn’t mean that “God he/she/it/computer simulation/whatever put me here to keep these predators from taking this house.” This is entirely your interpretation. All I meant to say, is that we are put in certain situations for specific reasons, or better, we create our own – sometimes unhealthy – situations for specific reasons, mostly unconsciously, created based on old pain. Most of the time, the reasons are only revealed after we have been able to move out of the situation. Simply put, we are meant to learn something from it and grow. I don’t know why you were put in your situation, or what you need to do with it, or learn from it, that’s entirely up to you to figure out.
Hi Bernadette,
I checked to see exactly what I typed in my post”
“She told me I must be here for a reason. Bernadette believes in a God. Both of my parents did, and even though I am a cautious agnostic I can only surmise if there is a God he/she/it/computer simulation/whatever put me here…”
I agree with you that the way I phrased things left things open to a fuzzy interpretation of what you really meant. It’s fair to say I, myself, was lulled into believing you may have meant that something greater than myself put me here. It does feel as a bit of a letdown that you really didn’t mean I was here for a fabulous supernatural reason and that it’s more likely the summation of many little mundane reasons, though that’s certainly not your fault for explaining as such.
I’m glad you found some time to post on the blog. Did Gilbert make a full recovery? I’d been wondering about that.
Anyway, sorry if you felt I may have misrepresented what you were thinking and/or feeling. It was a genuine misinterpretation on my part.
Guru, if you were “lulled into believing [Bernadette] may have meant that something greater than yourself put you here,” it has to be because of a need in you, that some part of you feels a need to believe in some immaterial order or force. Nothing happens in your feelings, without some need — so ask yourself what that need is. It could be “a need to matter” to someone in the world, or a need to “feel important”, since you lost your mom, and she is not here anymore to make you feel important to her — or many other versions of words for what you are feeling, that give your life meaning or purpose now. Give yourself time to consider those things.
Vicki, your passage of ‘she is not here anymore to make you feel important to her’ is a pivotal one. I just like the way you said that…that’s all. That traffic collision left a really strange lifelong hole of ‘meaninglessness’ I spent too many years trying to make sense of and to backfill.
Yeah Vicki, I reflected more on your statement ‘she is not here anymore to make you feel important to her’
That’s pretty much a ‘coming home’ statement for me.
As I said earlier I don’t have any memories of her facial expressions or mannerisms. It’s just some pictures, an amazing resume, stone-like silence, and empty space as far back as I can remember (about 4 years of age).
With nothing beyond those items, it’s extremely difficult for me to draw some frame of ‘feeling reference’ from which I can say, “Yes, here is where I was important to my mother, that she made me feel like I really mattered to her.”
I can soak in all the sensory perceptions and conscious memories of my maternal grandparents’ house, but it’s still only peripherally gazing upon something which has been vaporized without a trace for me long ago.
I do clearly see what a deeply rich, feelingful track you’re onto with ‘mattering or feeling as though I am important to mom’.
I wish I could go further here, but I am ‘stuck’. Going back to Minnesota might help here, but that’s really a reach for me as grandma’s house has long ago been sold.
I was terribly disturbed to see the house go, but nothing I could do as a teenager at the time. Completely beyond my control.
Just as you would see in various Wikipedia pages where no one is contributing (ie, “This Wikipedia page is a stub”), I’m afraid this feeling about ‘mattering to mom’ is also currently an abortive ‘stub’….but I really do feel for where you were going with this, Vicki.
That’s ok, Guru, you’ve remembered as much as you can, for now. But the fact that the feeling resonated with you enough, that you came back to it, shows you that there is more there, you are feeling some of it — likely more will come, and expand over time. The more you take note of your own feelings, in general, whatever they are, then the more that expansion of “getting in touch with your feelings”, can happen. You have some choice in allowing it to happen.
Vicki, I think the situation is more like having a limb severed in early childhood. You know how important it is to have that limb, you can FEEL (or at least pseudo-feel) how important it is to have that limb, yet the limb still cannot be regrown no matter how much you try or wish it so.
Similarly and as much as the diagnosis disturbed me, I very well may have to accept the permanence of the MMPI diagnosis of “organic brain damage”.
It’s kinda interesting how I used the both the ‘stub’ and ‘severed limb’ analogies for this conversation when a severed limb usually only leaves a stub behind.
Guru, I doubt that MMPI test could see in your head to find organic brain damage. Maybe that’s your feeling on the difficulty of making any progress confirmed by the test result. Was it what you were looking for?
Phil
Phil, I took that test almost 30 years ago before I even ran into Janov’s literature. I was desperate for some straight answers and I had absolutely no idea what I should be looking for at the time. The test was just a shot in the dark to see if it would tell me something interesting.
Guru, that it could be true, also means it might not be true. Suspend belief in that uncertain future, live the best life you can, and see what happens. I have not taken up crystal-ball reading, on your life or mine.
Vicki, I truly appreciate all your ongoing efforts to be my ‘caring parent’, both with the obnoxious predator neighbor driving me nuts and with trying to unearth something special I may have missed pertaining to my biological mother.
I have a strong feeling there are some things you’re not aware of & I wish I could share with you off the blog (Phil & Bernadette know these items & I feel I am doing you a disservice not telling you, but I can’t do it here). Please let me know if you wish to gather those additional details, especially considering that we actually buddied in person for a while, anyway.
Maybe it was such a letdown for me because I am in such a small minority here believing there might possibly be something beyond materialism. Something more inspiring than the usual, “Hello, my fellow talking meatsack mindlessly grown from a lucky spurt of impulse-laden lust. How are you today?”
Guru,
even if it were true that, as you said, “something greater than myself put me here” and that you are there “for a fabulous supernatural reason” it is still up to your interpretation of what the reasons may be. Your current interpretation seems to be because you need “to keep these predators from taking this house.” But there could be MANY other reasons, for example: to figure out what is the most important for you. Is it more important FOR YOU to keep the house at all cost, or is it more important for you to live a peaceful life in a healthier environment, in which case you would choose to let the house go. I think I mentioned this also in an email before. And you also have to ask yourself why you choose your current interpretation over any other possible interpretations. In any case, I wouldn’t call the reasons “ little” or “mundane”, I think it is an important opportunity to decide for yourself and learn and grow.
Gilbert seems to have fully recovered and is taking long walks every day. Thanks for asking!
Bernadette, at this current moment I only want to point out that my leaving this house doesn’t necessarily entail the necessity for my cousins to sell it (to someone besides myself). They already own five houses and two condos as it is. My optimal medium-term goal would be to live somewhere else, yet still make sure this house is safe. I mentioned elsewhere that I have no problem leaving as long as this house (and myself!) are in good hands.
I appreciate all your feedback (and yes I do agree I need a healthier neighborhood). Glad all is back to normal for Gilbert.
Ive just seen a good movie on Netflix called « Baby Teeth ». It’s a great story, as well as an insightful portrayal of family and other relationships, some of which resonated with me and moved me.
Renée,
I’ll put aside discussing Freud’s seduction theory. We’ve debated this before here and here.
I will also disregard the air of superiority and contempt in your portrayal of me as a deluded and antiquated man offering his sterile therapy to the uninitiated hapless, or for hidden personal reasons of his own unethically and fraudulently luring his (especially women) patients into trusting him only to upsell them on pricier lies which will undermine their real truths and hinder rather than aid them in their struggle to find help. Naturally, such a man does not have a separate existence, a stable standing or credibility of his own. These come into being only when bestowed by a contemporary who is up to speed with real modern truths, such as you.
I will add something about fantasy though, although it too was discussed in the past. I must have explained it badly if you still insist on a caricature concept of fantasy as only a yes-he-did-it-I-believe-you / no-he-didn’t-do-it-I-don’t believe-you affair. Since I’ve given up on explaining it, I’ll just pose some questions.
What is the relation between a woman’s abuse in childhood and her current adult promiscuity? What is the relation between a powerful but unconsciously insecure father and his son’s adult inability to hold on to a job? How is it that after being promoted someone is falling into a depression? How come a man is impotent with women he loves and admires but functions well with those he devalues? Why does someone live an entire life in a cycle of looking for someone to love, finding someone to love, getting disappointed, and leaving to only repeat the cycle, again and again?
I will add one more thing if it isn’t obvious: my second paragraph is the real issue. In my opinion of course.
Daniel, I think you point to your second paragraph as the real issue because it is where you express your feelings the most. So, let me respond to it. I feel neither superior to you nor contemptuous toward you. I think you’ve forgotten that I thought your analysis of Ugg was excellent. Sometimes you do come across as a little antiquated though. At least with your use of very traditional Freudian concepts. We obviously disagree in some important ways. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding you. Or you’re misunderstanding me. Or both. But to make the leap to somehow believing that I see you as, “a man who does not have a separate existence, a stable standing or credibility of his own,” makes no sense at all. It sounds like it could be trauma related, personal and/or historical trauma. Your comment that I am “up to speed with modern truths” made me laugh! I feel pretty old much of the time. Reading that made me feel young…..at least for a moment. Btw, sometimes I think that you are so identified with Freud that you take any criticism of him very personally.
This comes across as disappointingly conciliatory towards Daniel, as I was hoping for more intense fireworks.
I have never really know what exactly the difference is between first, second or third line feelings.
Phil, can you, or anyone else that feels like it, give me a short information about that please?
I have read the Primal Scream, several times or at least two, but I don’t recall having read a specific passage about them there.
i have had many different feelings so feel sure I must have had some of each but am still curious as to how they are defined and whether I agree with that definition, smiley.
so i am actually quite curious to find out, finally…
M
Margaret:
First line is close to the autonomic functions of the brain where primitive sensations are stored. It develops between birth and six months of age. Emotions aren’t yet developed at this stage.
Second line covers six months to about ten years of age where the limbic system becomes dominant and emotional memories are formed, though as Daniel implied earlier with my analysis, the transition from first to second line is not a hard one from base survival needs to emotional ones particularly during the first few years of the second line. Later on during the second line era emotional memories are stored in a more clearly articulable fashion.
Third line begins to predominate at around ten years of age, ushering in cognition and sealing off all unconscious material previously generated. The cognitive mind develops between the age of ten and twenty-five.
All ages are rough approximations.
Looks like Phil beat me by 2 minutes.
I should have said ‘ushering in deeper levels of cognition’ with the third line explanation.
Beside sides 1st, 2nd, and 3rd line feelings, which are real, I think there are large categories of unreal feelings. such as feeling you’ve seen Elvis alive any time since August 16, 1977. Feelings about being abducted by aliens, probably caused by reading the National Enquirer too often. Also past life primals. I met a guy who was a therapist, who said he had primaled an earlier lifetime when he was in the Crusades. His ex-wife was there too, I remember him saying, and I think he died in battle. He had quite a few other lives as well. Hearing about it all kind of freaked me out.
What was it about these peoples’ experiences that freaked you out, Phil?
This guy’s description of his life in the Crusades with his ex-wife, which he really was quite convinced happened. The way he shared it with me as a matter of fact thing.
Having been abducted by aliens is only slightly more believable, except if sexual abuse is involved. I just don’t think they’d have that level of interest.
I was just curious about your strong reaction of feeling freaked out. After all, no one is getting hurt by these peoples’ beliefs and experiences. When I hear about people having the experiences you describe, I don’t usually freak out. Sometimes I judge myself for being too limited or stuck in my own beliefs, sometimes I see them as ‘other’ and pathologize them, sometimes I can stay curious and want to know more.
Renee, this person was a therapist and seemed to be encouraging me to take a journey similar to his. He shared all of that about his past life regression with me in the first five minutes after we had met socially, so I found it disturbing and threatening.
Phil
Phil, I don’t get what felt disturbing and threatening. Maybe I’m wrong but it doesn’t sound like he was pressuring you into entering therapy with him. It sounds like he had a very direct marketing style that, not only didn’t work for you, it really upset and triggered you. If I had been in this situation, and not been upset, I would’ve told him that I appreciated his enthusiasm and passion but that I wasn’t looking for a journey into my past lives at this time. I also might’ve asked him if he was open to feedback about his style. If he was, I would’ve suggested that if he was looking for new clients he might want to tone it down a bit.
Renee,
I’m not getting why it wouldn’t be disturbing. To me the guy was wacked out. He believed he was in the Crusades, could describe it in detail, and I think had other past lives. Also he was a therapist, but I wasn’t considering doing any therapy with him, that was for sure.
Phil
after aa week that was emotionally challenging at times, I had a non-spectacular breakthrough this morning, or at least that is how it felt.
upon waking up, just laying there and not thinking much yet, I focused on what I was feeling.
a sudden insight struck me, it was pure fear. not the acute about something kind of fear, but more like a deep steady sound like of fear, hard to describe.
i managed not to let my head carry me to what it might be about, managed to stay mostly in the non’verbal awareness of it, and then started crying…
not acute crying either to call for help, but lost sad crying.
it felt like it might be what I had felt at the age of two, suddenly being put in some institution for a few weeks while mom had a severe operation.
overwhelming feeling of being on my own and frightened, not understanding and having a hard time to cope, was the general flavor, but again, not much thinking going on, just feeling.
then the feeling shifted, and I had a fetal position, mouth wide open, breath stopping for seconds in a row again and again.
different feeling, still earlier, like a sort of uptime for the real fear to set in…
it felt good though to get in touch with this ‘pure’ form of my always present anxiety under or on the surface, the basic sound of the root of it.
it was brief and not very spectacular but still feels like a breakthrough.
it also makes sense of all the terrifying nightmares that regularly happen, just people shooting at me, or murderers trying to get me or whatever , now it seems like it was merely my mind trying to direct me to the fear itself, and not any specific meaningful content.
not the contents my fear focuses on when I struggle with it trying to deal with it, like stuff I have to do, things I have to face.
they are triggers of their own kind, but just symptoms mainly of an underlying state of mind making them more scary than necessary.
now I feel strangely calm, for the moment, feeling I need to take good care of myself, and be gentle with myself, writing this brings tears to my eyes.
I might not attend group tonight, give myself a break, I feel like being without any struggle for a while, just me with me, and the cats of course….
more sadness right now than fear…
M
Margaret, it does indeed seem like you are having a breakthrough with feeling some of your fears and anxiety and a final calmness and resolution about things to take good care of yourself.
From what I have read and seen on some videos, Janov’s take on science was that at three months in the womb, the fetus can start defending against pain or noxious stimuli in the womb. As Phil states, first line is the brainstem functions, breathing, digestion, heartbeat, etc. Second line, emotions comes online at three months of age. I think that is why we see more emotional response in babies then. This line continues to develop, and then about three years the cognition comes online and we learn more about our surroundings, understanding things like don’t put your finger in the electrical outlet when mom or dad say not to, for instance.
I think all these functions continue to develop as we grow, our body grows in size, we have emotions at each stage of our lives and we learn things every day.
I had a primal once that touched upon all three lines with loss of breath and locomotive breathing, fast breathing to make up the anoxia from birth struggle. I think your feeling did also with the loss of breath. The fear you feel in nightmares, I think, could be from the terror or fright you felt as a baby either from the separation from your mom or even at birth if you had a close call being born. In nightmares the cognitive part tries to make sense of our baby fears and so we are chased by evil threatening people. I’ve had the same kind of nightmares but fortunately they stopped when I began to let fears surface during the day instead of repressing them. I still do get some fright in the dark outside and it’s windy not knowing what sounds are nature or human sneaking up on me. Babies must have that fright too. Cats too, huh–they are easily spooked, I think they operate a lot from their brainstem. Hi to your cats!
S
Margaret,
That sounds like a good breakthrough , and probably 1st line feelings, I would say.
Margaret,
The way I’ve understood it, but don’t quote me, 1st line feelings are associated with the brain stem and include prenatal, birth, and after birth, infant. 2nd line feelings involve the limbic system, childhood to adolescence. 3rd line feelings involve the cerebral cortex and are from adolescence to adulthood.
I have had feelings which seem to be mostly bodily in nature, which came after deep crying, and I think those are 1st line.
3rd line is, for example, crying about things that happened in childhood, but not quite feeling yourself there etc. And feelings related to current life.
2nd line is when you have feelings which really transport you to a childhood scene and you feel as you did as a child.
Phil
hi all,
thanks so much for all your feedback.
have to keep it short, cut the tip of one of my fingers which makes it difficult to type..
M
Phil, i got the impression it was a primal therapist, trainee maybe, and I relate to you feeling bad about his past life stuff dumped on you right away l
i would lose all trust immediately…
M
Phil, I can understand the urge to pathologize this past-lives therapist. It sounds like you have diagnosed him with Wacked-Out Disorder. But if you go the route of diagnoses, couldn’t we be considered having Closed-Mindedness Disorder? I think this can be a problem when one is too routed and invested in one belief system, whether that is a Primal or any other belief system. Out of a desire to avoid Closed-Minded Disorder, I did a little research into past-life therapy. One of the big names in this therapy is Dr. Brian Weiss. He wrote a book called, “Many Lives, Many Masters”. Here he is describing how he came upon this therapy. If you ask me, he sounds a lot like Art describing his experience with Danny Wilson: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WMlLoPYwZ5w. (Dr. Brian Weiss on the Patient Who Made Him Believe in Past Lives | The Oprah Winfrey Show | OWN)
Maybe those of us who don’t remember our past lives are still on our first life?
I remember Janov, who we all know to have been one of the strongest materialists, saying he ‘doesn’t care what others believe’ in response to one of his blog readers’ questions.
It just struck me as astoundingly closed-minded, even if all this past life material is nothing more than a delusional flight of fancy away from the pains of this reality.
One clear advantage to keeping closed off from other beliefs or ideas is that it does streamline your thought processes, making things more efficient by eliminating the baggage of having to constantly consider extraneous or distracting points being made.
Ugg, somehow I don’t think you would call Janov closed-minded if he believed in some kind of spirituality and said he didn’t care what others believed.
OK, assuming your observation is correct, what does this say to you about me? Aside from my possibly being hypocritical in this case?
It suggests to me that it is easier for you to be angry at your symbolic father figure than you own father.
Renee, you’re right that I wouldn’t call Janov closed-minded if he believed in spirituality and didn’t care what others believed. This is not for reasons you might ordinarily suspect, though. Why? Underneath the umbrella of pure materialism is only ONE possibility, eternal oblivion upon death. Underneath the umbrella of spiritually-related ideas the wide-ranging possibilities of what any sort of afterlife might entail number in the thousands. Which of those two avenues of thought strike you as more closed-minded?
I should also mention that I discussed with Gretchen several tunes something closely related to your comment I just responded to. I mentioned to her both on and off the blog that I would find it equally objectionable if Art had said we can only Primal effectively if we turn our lives over to Jesus Christ (or similar along the lines of radical theological beliefs). In fact, I would have found that even MORE objectionable than the pure materialism stance he took.
I hate it when I catch stupid typos three seconds too late. “tunes” should read “times”
Okay, Ugg. So Art believed in only ONE possibility, eternal oblivion upon death. So he was closed-minded. I’m more interested in why this is so important to you. I think there are some very good reasons……possibly connected to some of the stages of grief.
It has nothing to do with a hope of ever seeing mommy or daddy again in an afterlife.
Guru, you should email Atty asking her to send me your email address, then we can communicate “off the blog”, as you wish, without exposing addresses here. Thanks.
Renee, when I have deep feelings and connect with my childhood pain, and recover parts of my lost history, that is so satisfying and relieving. Connecting to a past life, how could that be real? It’s some other imaginary person, I think its very delusional. I don’t need Art Janov’s writings to understand that. Since that encounter I mentioned I had some contact with other past lives primallers years ago, and learned more about their stories. Something clearly went wrong with their therapy, is what I think. Too much pain was accessed, more than could be handled. It was sad to see. To divert pain off into past life fantasies is to become crazier. It’s not healthy. I’ve also seen how past life regression sessions are conducted. They are very directed, scripted, and not feeling oriented. People can do whatever they want and I am open minded, but that’s really terrible therapy.
Phil, I agree with a lot of what you are saying and share a lot of your judgments of past-life therapy. At the same time, as I’m sure you know, many people judge Primal as a terrible therapy. There is no one-size-fits-all therapy and I think it is interesting how different therapies draw different people. Yet none of this is the point, in my opinion. I was simply struck by your strong emotional reaction to the past lives therapist being perhaps a bit overzealous about a therapy you have a lot of negative opinions about. You said you were freaked out and found the guy wacked out. And found what he was telling you to be disturbing and threatening. Okay. That was your honest reaction. That’s fine. I was just curious about your reaction because it didn’t seem to fit the context. For me, when this happens, there are often old feelings underneath. Sometimes it takes time before I can become curious about my reaction. Sometimes it takes feedback from someone else that there might be more going on. That’s what I was suggesting. That’s all. If you disagree with me, I’m okay with that.
Renee, actually I think my reaction was quite appropriate to the context. I didn’t react outrageously when I heard this therapist’s story about his reliving a past life in the Crusades, if that’s what you were thinking. I mostly listened. There a lot of different kinds of therapies, but that one isn’t at all benign, I think, whether or not people think it helps them. You seem interested about it, so give it a try then, and report back to us. Maybe it’ll turn out you were Cleopatra in one of your past lives!
Phil, in order to do past-life therapy, I think you have to be somewhat spiritual and believe in past lives. So I would not be a good candidate for this therapy. And neither would you. Could you imagine doing Primal, if you didn’t believe in old feelings? It just wouldn’t work. I’m curious why you think that past-life therapy is not benign.
Renee, do you think helping patients make false mental connections with their symptoms is a good thing?
Phil, I think you are right. Most of us would feel a bit worried should we be told “ I had lunch at Subway yesterday with Elvis”. We can all have our own opinions about the best way to approach these things but there are many good reasons for bringing up these concerns that have nothing to do with a need to label someone’s pathological or to “ other” them. I can think of ten reasons off the top of my head why it might be useful to take another approach. In other words let’s not forget that there are good reasons, therapeutic reasons for being direct and honest. I know many people who would feel extremely patronized if I were to ask for makeup tips after they told me they met Cleopatra in another life. That’s not to say you can’t encourage them to talk about their experience or support them believing whatever they want while being honest about your own perspective. I believe most people want that and in fact ask for that. If you can’t have an honest exchange then you must deal with that first. For me it was a relief to be at the Primal Institute where people were direct and not so PC. Most of us came from homes where that was not the case. I also don’t think it is about being closed minded. Ironically you might say Phil was the one labeled with concerns about pathology for expressing his reservations about this person. I also don’t see any connection between believing you were in the Crusades and remembering the pain your mom caused you. We can be wrong in our viewpoints but I think we must be honest. If you don’t want people to tell you what they think or feel then the PI is not the place for you. That is for sure. Gretch
Guru, You have expressed your concern a number of times about the psychological testing you did in college. First of all this was around thirty years ago and testing has evolved over many decades. Then there is the accuracy of the person administering these tests. Add to that the limitations of the tests themselves. I would put all that aside and not take it as gospel. Whatever you do don’t let it define you now. Gretchen
Gretchen, please keep in mind my response here doesn’t BEGIN to address everything I want to say (too overwhelmed), but I am curious about one thing for now.
You’ve heard the tale of the power of affirmations or suggestive thinking, right?
Does that work in reverse?
In other words, if I tell myself I have brain damage a certain number of times, can actual damage begin to occur?
Neuroplasticity of the brain can be an amazing thing, so the self-destructive possibilities left me worried.
Would you dare yourself to tell yourself “I am brain damaged” a thousand times just to see if something bad happens to your consciousness as a result?
If we believe that positive affirmations are delusional, would we dare to tell ourselves “I am developing brain damage” a couple thousand times being confident nothing will change, as well?
Man, there’s SO much here I want to respond to and it really overwhelms me. I have semi-lengthy responses here in mind for Gretchen and Renee, along with setting up email stuff with Vicki and starting to explain stuff to her as well.
In the meantime, I’m really angry and annoyed I haven’t progressed nearly as far as I had hoped in recent days on my computer programming. Plus I have to fix myself something decent to eat…
Guru, I am not clear what you are asking here but if you are asking whether telling yourself you are brain damaged might make you brain damaged then no, personally, I don’t think so. Why you are angry at being reassured about that test result is a mystery to me. Several people have said similar things. Do you want it to be accurate? Gretchen
Well if the test is accurate and the brain damage is reversible, that gives me a lot of extra unrealized potential to play around with, doesn’t it? If it’s not reversible, then obviously I wouldn’t want that.
Your statement of,
“Why you are angry at being reassured about that test result is a mystery to me.”
left me completely confused. I’m not angry about the test result at all. How could I be angry at something that seems possible and I’m not sure about?
Why are you telling yourself you are brain damaged a couple thousand times ? Why would positive affirmations necessarily be delusional? G.
Well if Janov was right and thoughts are only an outgrowth of feelings, not the other way around, then affirmations would be pointless, wouldn’t it? Resolving feelings being a ‘bottom up’ approach rather than a ‘top down’ approach from cognitive affirmations?
Personally, the idea of telling myself I have brain damage many times sounds scary and I wouldn’t want to chance it.
My question about daring oneself to tell oneself, “I am developing brain damage” or “I have brain damage” several thousand times out loud in front of a circle of colleagues would seem to be a firm test of how pure a skeptic towards affirmations/suggestive thinking really would be, that’s all. It would be a test of purity of their beliefs by risking personal destruction, so to speak.
I just want to interject something here, if it is all right. I think people can be brain washed, told things that may not be true but that they come to believe. That experiment many years ago about the teacher who told her grade school students that blue eyed people were smarter than brown eyed ones. The blue eyed children began to feel superior to the brown eyed children and the brown eyed kids began to feel inferior and lose confidence. Then the teacher said she made a mistake and it was the brown eyes that was genetically superior, and low and behold, the confidence switched to the brown eyed children and the blue eyed kids began to feel inferior.
Neither was true, neither the blue or brown eyes has anything to do with intelligence or superiority. Maybe Guru, you have been carrying around a myth for years that may not have been true.
Sylvia, maybe so…and this entire conversation harkens to a larger point what other scarily false suggestions people tell themselves, as you pointed out with your eye color example.
I did not ask why you were angry about the test result but rather why you were angry about being reassured about the test result. G
I understood your question, but you left me befuddled on how to respond to it. How does one be angry about being assured?
I think I’m finally starting to understand why you asked me why I am angry about being reassured about the test.
–A mishap may have occurred here., My original post may have given off the impression I was giving you an angry response to your assurance that the MMPI methodology is 30 years old and likely inaccurate (maybe!).
–I was not angry at you about this at all. Not at all. I was really curious about brain plasticity and whether we are truly susceptible to suggestive words from sources we perceive as authoritative, and as an extension whether affirmations can work for better or worse.
–That was all. I was not angry. I just had a moment of surging impulsive curiosity.
Guru, Yes I think we can be susceptible to suggestive words, at least some of us. But I don’t tend to think repeating “ I am brain damaged” can make us brain damaged. I think the bigger question would be why repeat it at all ? G.
Gretchen, I can only refer back to what I said earlier to answer your question:
My question about daring oneself to tell oneself, “I am developing brain damage” or “I have brain damage” several thousand times out loud in front of a circle of colleagues would seem to be a firm test of how pure a skeptic towards affirmations/suggestive thinking really would be, that’s all. It would be a test of purity of their beliefs (that affirmations and suggestions don’t work) by risking personal destruction, so to speak.
I think it may not have to do with the purity of one’s belief in the effectiveness of suggestion, but in the vulnerability of a person at the time a pronouncement is given and whether the person already has self-doubts about themselves, as to how the info will be assimilated. It can make you feel worse about yourself, for sure. But a positive affirmation can also help lift you up. Nowadays I doubt a person reporting a test would say that someone has brain damage–how callous and mind-messing is that.
Believe me, Sylvia, when I took a nationally-respected psychiatric test which has 600 true/false questions requiring several hours to answer telling me I have “psychotic levels of depression’, ‘cocaine psychosis’, and ‘signs of organic brain damage’….yes that really messed with my little college-aged mind!
I felt really scared after seeing those results.
Brain damage can be hard, if not impossible to subjectively detect by the sufferer. No pain, just destroyed cells.
It would be interesting to know what your dad felt about such a test or anyone else, family or friends thought at the time who you shared it with. Hmmm? Any: “don’t listen to that rubbish test”?
I never told him about it.
What do you think he would have said? You think he would have thought less of you or were there other reasons you thought it would affect how he looked at you? You tell anyone then? A terrible feeling to keep to yourself for so long, feeling damaged.
I think everyone who reads a primal book comes away with an inferiority feeling of being damaged, but maybe not so early in their life, but a disappointment, for sure and a blow to self-esteem.
Sylvia, I think I made the right move not saying anything to dad. It would have given him one extra thing to worry about, so yeah I’m really glad I didn’t. I think I told a Catholic priest about the test a week afterwards, “Pfft, forget that crap”, he’d say. Other than that, the only others would be the Primal people both many years ago and here on the blog.
I do feel we’ve discussed this topic and awful lot, though. I’ll be happy to simply move on and try to forget it.
It’s really nice to know how everyone’s has been so attentive about it.
It was an unusually frightening test result, though.
Since I cluttered up the blog with my random thoughts, I will give the reader a free healthy recipe for your trouble:
–Can of Progresso soup (Minestrone, Vegetable, Garden Vegetable, Italian Vegetable, or Tomato with Penne preferred)
–15 ounce can of garbanzo beans, drained
–Mix the two in saucepan, add 1-2 tablespoons of olive oil and your preferred spices
–Leave it on low heat for about an hour, turning up to medium low during the final 5 minutes. The beans will leach into the soup over time making it more savory
A ‘souper’ savory vegetarian soup with good amounts of fiber and protein.
Good night.
Sylvia, I have heard about the study you refer to regarding people being brainwashed to believe things that may not be true. That study could only work at a regular school where children have learned that their brains need “washing” by authority figures called teachers who have so much power. At democratic schools where I worked at for many years, there is no way the kids would believe the teacher!
No doubt, Renee. The Summerhill type programs looks like kids were taught to think for themselves and not fear questioning authority. Maybe it would be fun, though, to think you are special for a few minutes, if you have that need.
Ugg, I have a feeling that underneath all your verbiage about possibly having brain damage is a question for yourself and us — “Am I damaged?” And what it would mean to you if the answer is yes. Or no. For me, when I have had feelings that I might be damaged, I listen to this song because it helps me feel not so alone and not like such a freak: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRH-URpgZrM…….(The lunatic is in my head, You raise the blade, You make the change, You rearrange me ’till I’m sane, You lock the door, And throw away the key, And there’s someone in my head, but it’s not me.)
Renee, I get your intended point…but I am going to veer off on a tangent for a second. I know you’re obviously big on music, and during my teens and twenties I was also a huge audiophile. I had TONS of albums sitting in a huge box in my front seat serving as a huge armrest (including Pink Floyd’s The Wall) and the best car stereo system in a large high school, professionally installed by a very special technician whose services were expensive. Three-way Jensen speakers, Pioneer 40 watt system, even cloth seats to absorb the sound waves for added smoothness.
The stereo was so good at the time it seemed to have the ability to transport the listener’s entire body to special dimensions and places.
My car was the music partymobile until I went off to start college and was no longer a big fish in a small pond.
My point here being that you seem to think I never had music in my veins and don’t understand the cool aspects of it.
Truly I do. I just became burnt out on it and want peace and quiet overall anymore.
It’s more of a ‘been there, done that’ type of thing for me.
I think I discussed this story with Otto and Gretchen here on the blog some years ago. I’m not AGAINST people wanting to listen to music; I’m just personally burnt out to where it doesn’t do a heck of a lot for me anymore.
Guru,
I seem to remember you mentioned cocaine psychosis, or brain damage by use of too much cocaine, I don’t remember how you put it originally, as one of the results of the test.
I had never heard that to be one of the possible test results, isn’t it supposed to be a test about personality traits?
and didn’t you say in that same comment you did not even use cocaine?
or am I mixing this up with some other comment?
if I would be right, it would invalidate all test results you received, don’t you think?
it might have been a modified version of the original test or something.
i have never heard of tests like this giving brain damage as a result either…
there are guidelines to make conclusions, and I doubt those options are between the official possible ones…
m
Margaret, the test said I had cocaine psychosis and organic brain damage, but those assessments were separate and not the cause of one another. I had tried cocaine on a few occasions at parties…but the amounts were meaninglessly small and took place months or years before the test, so for all intents and purposes I was a non-user.
It was an MMPI test, so if you want to research why it offered ‘organic brain damage’ as a possible result you’re certainly welcome to look into it. Personally I’ll just take everyones’ advice and try to forget about it.
Phil, you ask, “do you think helping patients make false mental connections with their symptoms is a good thing?” When I see this question from a purely primal perspective, the answer is easy. It’s no. End of subject. However, from outside this perspective, I would ask, “Who decides what is a true mental connection with symptoms and what is a false one?” The therapist? The patient? Both working together? An outsider from another therapy passing judgment because they are convinced they know best? Last night, in an attempt to be curious and open, rather than simply going back and forth between the above options, I did some research into past life therapy, just to see if I would also find it to be disturbing and threatening. From what I saw, I would say this was a pretty average session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_oWUV7xFG4U. It’s not my cup of tea but I found it neither disturbing nor threatening. And if it helps some people, then that’s great. From yet another perspective, I wonder if your extreme negative judgments of this therapy could have come from interactions you had with past life practitioners who were not trained and competent therapists?
That was an interesting session about the client’s anxieties. I wonder if it is just a free-flowing imagination like writers of fiction have. They never know what will pop up and they sometimes say that the character leads the way. It probably is very therapeutic for the writer who is able to tap into some unconscious feelings and have the characters work them out, the characters being himself/herself, really.
I think I would have been freaked too, going into therapy expecting a certain way of feeling as a new patient like Phil. I would think there was not much of a vetting process in place or that the therapy was not going to be as expected.
I was freaked when I learned that Dr. Holden had passed but before had experienced psychotic events. I had written to him a few times and he graciously answered back in 1980 when he was practicing neurology in Orange County. Reading a few years ago that he had such flooding of his pain I was stunned and it shook my faith in Primal, as he was, in my eyes, held up as one of the founders of Primal. I thought, how could this process go so wrong. But, yeah, I can understand Phil’s reaction. I also feel that Renee, it seems you cannot quite accept Phil’s genuine reaction, that you want it to be different.
S
Sylvia,
I should clarify that encounter with a past life therapist that I described happened at a retreat, where as I learned, just about anything or everything was acceptable. I wasn’t a new patient, but I don’t think my reaction would have been any different. P
Sylvia, I found you reaction to the past life therapy session interesting. The idea that the client was just going with a free-flowing imagination did not occur to me. Since I don’t believe in past lives, I wondered if she had had a miscarriage in this life but didn’t feel ready to talk about it yet. Having it happen in a ‘past life’ was one step removed and felt a little easier for her. I wondered if her next therapist would be a ‘this life’ therapist to address what happened to her in a more direct way.
I can accept Phil’s reaction. I was just having a reaction to (judgment of) it. That’s all. I was reacting to his being freaked out by this therapist and labeling him as whacked out. I couldn’t connect with these reactions. Also, I have been at the receiving end of people having these reactions to me. It doesn’t feel good at all and really hurts. What’s interesting is that you mention Dr. E. Michael Holden and what happened to him. I decided to google him to see if I could find out his perspective of what happened. I discovered this: http://primal-page.com/holden.htm. I noticed when I read his words that I felt a little freaked out and saw HIM as whacked out! Of course, if I was a born-again Christian, his words would probably make total sense to me. The only sentence I could connect with was his saying that, “primal therapy can make your body feel a little better, but it cannot save your soul!” Very true. Anyway, now I can connect more with Phil’s reaction. So thanks for mentioning Dr. Holden.
Sylvia, in my early days of Primal Therapy, from 1978 – 82, I had a few meetings with Michael, and one (in late ’79 or early ’80) went for about 45 min., he was considering prescribing meds for me. So he asked me questions, and then talked about himself, about dying at birth and being resuscitated (which is different to what he said in his 1983 tape, transcribed in the link from Renee). He talked about 1st, 2nd, & 3rd line, and told me how his therapy went, much as he described on his tape. I connected with his intensity, as he talked — that intense feeling was very familiar to me, but his personality raised some “tentative doubts” in my mind, and near the end, I asked him if he was still having Primals. He said that he, Art, and Vivian had “pretty much” all completed their therapy, and what was left was “just a mopping up operation”. Again, that contradicts what he said about Art on his 1983 tape (assuming it was transcribed accurately).
Throughout our conversation, Michael was friendly and smiling, in control of his manner. But as we finished and said goodbye, and I left his office, as the door was shutting, I saw him at his desk in the last two inches before his door finished closing, and his face was just contorted in pain as his eyes looked down — his mask completely fell away, and I thought to myself, Oh, he’s crazy, he is definitely not done with his therapy! I imagined him immediately dropping into a feeling, and thought amazed about how he’d hid it while talking to me. I assumed that since he worked there, the rest of the staff must know, so I didn’t feel a need to report it. I also do remember once a therapist remarking in group that “Michael is not a therapist”, when a patient brought up something Michael had said.
Some months later, I was in group one afternoon, when a patient smilingly announced he had found Jesus and Christianity, and was leaving therapy, accordingly. Nothing anybody said affected him, and he left. Art was there, and asked if any of the guy’s friends were in the room. Then Art got angry, saying, like, “As his friends, didn’t you see this coming?” or “Didn’t you know what was happening to him?” and Why didn’t you tell his therapist, tell us so we could do something, before it went too far? I commented to Art that maybe he might come back, but Art said “No, he will never come back”, it’s too late, he’s got his belief now, and something like, “it’s filling that hole in his need”, or “what he’s looking for”. As a fairly new patient, I was surprised it was so final, and surprised that Art was so angry at “us”.
Then of course, years later, after I had left the Institute, the rumor or news came out that Michael Holden had become a born-again Christian, which shocked some. I remember hearing that he had privately told a patient about it, and the patient told his therapist. Later, as I thought about it all, I remember feeling angry and imagining saying to Art, “As his friend, didn’t you see this coming?” or “Didn’t you know what was happening to him?” and “Why didn’t you tell someone, or do something about it?”
Even years later, I was out shopping on the 3rd St. Promenade in Santa Monica, in a fantasy & sci-fi toy and memorabilia store, and looked across the aisles to see Michael standing near the door, which made me do a double-take, although I didn’t say anything from that far away. But he saw that I knew him, looked a bit frightened, and quickly went out the door. If he had not been uncomfortable in a hurry, I probably would have gone over to say hi.
Vicki? Did you ever see Art in person after ’83? Could you have asked those ‘seen it coming’ questions during later years? It would leave me feeling as though Art ‘got away with something’ which was never repaid.
I’d been familiar with Dr. Holden for a very long time and I do know a couple of people who were prescribed meds by him. Reviewing that tape transcript gave me the faint inkling that he was about to start his own Jim Jones-style cult. Even I with my own quirky disagreements with Janov can see Dr. Holden became derailed somewhere, unfortunately.
Guru, I did not see Art again until Oct. 2014, when he was at the showing of his play “Primal Scream, the Musical” at Pepperdine University. But I did not want to talk to him, I had already challenged him on his own Blog about the historical accuracy of his account of when he left the Institute, because I knew he was incorrect. But he didn’t even admit he could be mistaken, but rather denied my memory and declined to print my statement that included my “evidence”. I did not like that dishonesty.
Hi Vicki, I had a couple of points I needed to raise with you:
-I definitely remember that incident you described from some years ago because you discussed it here on the blog. Although I don’t agree with Art on some things and, such as in your example, he raised a lot of questions for me about his actions, I still am pretty firmly in the Primal Therapy camp overall. On a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being ‘debunking Primal’ site and 10 being Art himself, I am at around a 7.5…maybe an 8. Still my favorite approach overall.
-I don’t mean to be pushy or aggressive in any way, but I was wondering if you received my email shortly after you responded to me the first time? Maybe it went to your spam folder? Bernadette had this spam problem with my mail initially. Most non-Primallers view me as a second-class citizen and I’ve grown to accept that computers have gotten in on the act, as well.
Sure, I had not seen it yet, as I was not feeling well, with some “vaccine illness” still in play.
Oh no problem, Vicki, at least I have some idea what might have happened. I hope you feel better soon & no big rush, though I do have some potentially surprising morsels to share when the time is ripe.
That’s all very interesting, Vicki. Thank you for sharing that. As I was reading from the link a couple days ago provided by Renee, I thought how scared Dr. Holden seemed. Not just that he was an enthusiastic Christian, but a scared-out-of-his-wits person. What pain he must have suffered. I had read that transcription several years ago in disbelief.
I seem to recall Dr. Janov just saying that Dr. Holden had catastrophic pain, but didn’t elaborate on things except to say that Holden would not listen to reason or let him help him.
With Dr. Holden’s mention of the uppers he had taken, I thought maybe he was experiencing amphetamine psychosis. It’s just sad all the way around.
Vicki. I keep thinking, wow, what an experience you had to witness all that with Dr. Holden. He seemed so logical. He must have unleashed too much suffering from his life to handle it.
Yes, Sylvia, having seen a few things personally, I was not too surprised by the results. But I was somewhat surprised that I had “read” things correctly, in spite of my own misgivings. Growing up, when I felt I saw things differently from my family members, when what I felt was quickly dismissed, I doubted the correctness of my views. But the more experienced and the older I have gotten, I have learned and been surprised that often I was dead right about someone or something, but just lacked confidence in my own feelings. So as that progressed, I have had more faith in my hunches, in recent years, and am not so afraid to speak up. That said, I have also had experiences of being totally wrong about some things, and not dying of embarrassment thereby. So the experience of failures has contributed to my overall confidence, as well.
When I talked with Michael, his intense manner disturbed me somewhat, although I could not put words to it simply, but I kept replaying and thinking about it long afterwards — that is my style, when I don’t know what’s quite bothering me. I agree with you that Michael could be logical when discussing his areas of scientific expertise, but beyond that realm, I think he was overwhelmed by his own past trauma, and unfortunately sought and found a crazy way “out”. It also says he likely was not communicating the extent of his feelings — i.e. he did not feel he needed therapy, so I would bet he was hiding what was really going on with himself, and staying essentially “alone”.
Renee,
I’m just not seeing that a well trained and competent therapist should be doing that kind of therapy at all.
I really don’t have anything more to add to this discussion.
Phil
What about just finally feeling one’s self and thoughts are being respected as a jumping on point. Would that be the same thing as allowing a patient to head down an obvious wrong path ? One of my patients at the NS Psychiatric Hospital who claimed to be JC came back when I asked if she had seen Simon Peter around, during my chart rounds. I wasn’t mocking, merely testing the veracity and depth of her delusion. In fact she wasn’t delusional, wasn’t psychotic, rather in contrived safe hiding from a wildly abusive husband.
Renee,
since all these interactions started there was something that felt hard to pinpoint at first, but became clearer in time.
the pattern is you sometimes phrase your opinions, like here to Daniel and Phil, in what I would also put under the label ‘judgmental’, expressing a strong judgement on how you see those persons and their reactions.
like with Daniel, I forgot all the terms you used, and with Phil you used ‘narrowminded’ if I recall it right.
what strikes me is that exactly what you say you revolt against , as you say, is judgamentality and narrow-mindedness, but as your words are often a bit harsh to say the least, it made me wonder if what drives you is a family pattern you revolt to, and struggle with, seeing it easily in others, or thinking you do, but fighting because it is something in yourself as well you do not like, want to get rid of but at the same time might have a hard time acknowledging.
I dare to say all this because you know I usually get along with you very well and would stand up for you, but here I feel it might be useful for you to take the time to look at your motives and underlying feelings.
of course I can be wrong, but I seem to recognize this pattern of criticizing somebody else about things I on hindsight have to admit are all too familiar in myself, behaviors or feelings.
if someone really triggers me with something very often it is a kind of behavior I also have but have a hard time to accept or admit to myself.
but then the other persons behavior appears to me like bigger than realty and to be condemned for whatever reason, as a kind of defense.
this does not sound very clear, sorry about that, but maybe if you give it some thought it does ring some bell?
just trying to be helpful.
M
Margaret, are you sure you are blind?
I agree with what you are saying here Margaret. I also realize that what I call judgements, actually are my reactions. And yes, I am always exploring my motives and underlying feelings. I appreciate your reaction that sometimes my reactions come across as harsh. I think there is some truth to that. I have a pretty good idea why that happens, connected to some deep fear and shame in me. Thanks for pointing it out. I hope that when people react harshly to me, they are also reflecting on their motivations and underlying feelings.
The eventual finding of what a ‘soul’ or ‘spirit’ may mean might be discovered around the year 2500, and the explanation will be something as foreign to us now as it would be for us to try to explain invisible radio waves and wifi to someone living during the 1500’s.
Guru, one of my favorite Beatles albums is “Rubber Soul”, which maybe fits in with what you’re talking about here. It’s an album title which seems to imply souls can bounce around, maybe during the listening experience, and/or while on drugs. But I maintain they need something material to be able to bounce around like that. I’d say the concept is probably for living souls. I’m not convinced the Dead can hear anything at all, or be on drugs, at least not Jerry García, at this point.
Jo, Thanks for suggesting this movie, ” Babyteeth.” A lot of emotion and realism there. I thought the quiet character, Milla was brave to face her destiny so head on as she desperately seeks a life-affirming connection with her pain-numbed friend. I noticed in the reviews some viewers appreciated the movie and others it did not touch at all.
Hey Sylvia, I’m glad you appreciated the movie, I agree with what you say, and would add that I thought the “disfunctionality” of the parents was well portrayed…reminding me of how hard it is at times to be a parent/spouse/bread earner. I hadn’t looked at the reviews, but your remark about them doesn’t surprise me, right?!
Right, Jo! Yes, I agree the parents were dysfunctional, and I couldn’t judge them at all because of what they were going through. I think feeling feelings softens our hearts. What good actors!
☺️
note on white privilege: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJmvfbDdhFg Chris Rock: Who Wants To Change Places? nuf said. this humorous bit of reality might help us realize that our parents made a lot of us into n-words, so sure, let us feel that too. women, john lennon said, are n-words of the world, but i doubt that was a very listenable song (musically). at least, otto the n-word never listened to it.
Thanks, Otto, I had never heard that rant, although I knew Chris Rock’s style.
Vicki, I was struck by your comment that E. Michael Holden told you that he was almost finished his therapy and he was left with “just a mopping up operation”. When I read this, I wondered if he might’ve been referring to the mopping up of his primal pool of pain. Or perhaps the mopping up of the mess that all his primalling created. Or perhaps the mopping up of the mess of all the amphetamines (and perhaps other drugs) he was possibly misusing. Or perhaps the mopping up of the mess that was created by having a staff at the PI adopt a whole new worldview that was incompatible with the primal worldview. (As he said in his recording for the IPA: “primal therapy doesn’t hold a candle to the truth, Jesus Christ is the truth”.) Or perhaps it was a mopping up of several or all of these options, in which case I would disagree with your simplistic interpretation that he was “crazy”, and simply “not done with his therapy”, when you saw “his face was just contorted in pain as his eyes looked down”.
Renee, I don’t trust your motivations in writing this comment; I don’t like your chronic dishonesty, behind it. I believe you are just using it to indirectly express your anger at P.T. and the P.I. for your own mistakes in therapy, which you have never been willing to write about here.
Clearly non ambivious Vicki. I like that clear speak. Looking forward to reading further dialogue on this.
Vicki, I can see, from your perspective, how you wouldn’t trust my motivations and how you would see me as being chronically dishonest. I can also see how you could jump to the conclusion that I am indirectly expressing anger at PT and the PI for what you believe are my mistakes in therapy that I’m just not willing to write about. What you say is not accurate but unfortunately I do not feel that any clarifying or explaining I do will make any difference to you. Nor do I feel that anything I say would allow you to form any other conclusion than the one you have formed. Sadly, I feel your mind is made up and anything I say that challenges or contradicts your negative view of me would fall on deaf ears. In other words, it would be totally pointless.
So, just more deflection, you are still unwilling to reveal more of yourself on this Primal blog, by writing about your anger and how your therapy went wrong. Not surprising, but then why do you bother coming to write here, since you don’t really want Primal Therapy any more for yourself? But perhaps you feel you still get something therapeutic from being here, in the social aspect.
Explain , ” a whole new worldview that was incompatible with the primal worldview.”, for me please.
I don’t want to interrupt any discussion between Renee & Vicki, but I wanted to just copy/paste something down which one of my favorite writers, Paul Campos, wrote recently:
“Another cognitive difficulty we (as a society) face is that the human mind isn’t very good at grasping exponents. This is a thought experiment that I find useful: If an ATM machine is spitting out exactly one dollar per second, you need to stand in front of it for eleven and half days to become a millionaire. Meanwhile you would need to stand in front of it for nearly 32 years to become a billionaire, The gap between eleven and a half days and 32 years seems far far greater than our sense of the gap between a million and a billion. And here’s the kicker: you would have to stand in front of that machine for 1,743 years to become as rich as Mike Bloomberg, and 5,833 years to become as rich as Jeff Bezos.
In other words, we really have no idea how rich extremely rich people are in the contemporary world — in fact I doubt they themselves have any real grasp of this, or at least I hope they don’t, because if they do then their behavior in the face of these circumstances becomes even more disturbing than it already is.”
Another Campos quote snippet related to the above: “one thing that keeps our plutocrats from ending up hanging upside down at an Esso station is that people can’t do math.”
last Monday I had an appointment with a psychologist for a 50 minutes session.
it was a present from the staff of the phone helpline for all the members of the new volunteer group who started the training in October.
that training is now about to end, except for regular new trainings we can sign up for, and this session is meant to experience being in ‘the other role’, the one of being listened to as opposed on being on the phone for callers of the helpline.
kind of funny as I had our group Zoom session of more than four hours on Sunday evening, and have had many private session so did not really feel I ‘needed’ it as a new experience.
but of course I did not feel like saying no, and went.
and hey, it was very nice.
it turned out the psychologies knew more or less about Primal Therapy, which made things easier for connecting in the limited timespan.
we could talk about anything we chose, it was not an evaluation or something for or about the helpline.
so I gave a brief overview of my life, starting therapy and then losing my eyesight and having to deal with that as well.
it was a nice interaction, and what was the nicest of all, the psychologists spontaneous feedback of how she saw me was that she was impressed with how ‘vibrantly alive’ I come across.
I had told her about my intensive at the start, and how my first big feeling breakthrough brought a very emotional reconnection for me with myself as a four year old, feeling intensely good, like meeting a long ago almost forgotten about very best dearest friend, me, as a kid…
talking about it to her I became teary for some moments, which felt good as it illustrated the intensity of primal therapy and how well it works at times.
I also had mentioned the kinds of things I had done after losing my sight, and that must have been the source of the psychologists next surprising observation, that I also clearly loved to learn very much.
but then I realized myself how true that is, before I lost my eyesight, I learned languages for fun, learned to be a good seller, in real estate among other things, and became a black belt judo and had drawing classes.
after losing my sight I learned to operate computers with screen reading software, to do sports as a blind person, and to function as good as possible, while even coming to retreats and long stays in LA.
I took years of singing classes, learned to dance the Argentinean tango, started psychology at the Open University, and started sailing, oh yes, and had piano classes to freshen up what I learned as a child, sadly without being able now to read sheet music.
and now I just finished 13 instruction meetings for the volunteer job with the helpline.
so yes, she was right, I love to learn.
she asked me what it was mostly I got out of it, and I said, apart from the fun activities and the social contacts, it makes me feel like I, and my life, are not standing still, stuck, but there is a moving forward, some improvements.
so it was actually a very pleasant and invigorating session, and the psychologist also enjoyed it I think.
today I had to get up at 5.30 am, to get ready to start a three hour shift at the helpline central by 8 am.
I don’t like to rush in the morning, and I was glad I got up that early, getting ready, feeding the cats etc., I had just enough time to do it all at a comfortable pace.
now back home, tired but satisfied.
a pleasant shift, got to know new fellow volunteers, and finally found out how to make myself a good cup of coffee there.
and the sun is finally shining after many grey days….
M
I’m really surprised, Margaret, with all the different things you’ve learned you only recently learned how to make coffee? It seems like such a trivial skill to learn the basics of compared to your other undertakings.
I first learned to make coffee at age 12 or so. During the many ensuing years I’ve honed my craft to become one of the best coffee brewers in the world, eventually granting me with my very own gilded-edge coffemaker’s certificate signed by Mr. Arabica himself!
I was looking at the news of the latest shooting in Boulder. It’s so crazy. This disturbed guy went out and bought his assault weapon six days before the massacre. A Ruger AR-556 pistol made for the military. It’s semi-automatic and there’s loads of information on the internet about it. You can get it for less than $1000.
“Ruger’s AR-556 Pistol Is Everything You Love In An AR-15 (In Handgun Form)”
Of course, the sars-2-cov virus is a far more effective killing machine, although hopefully we’ll all soon be vaccinated against it. But, for some reason, we have to live with guns.
You can get it on layaway, so no need to wait.
“EASY PAY $60 LAYAWAY RUGER AR556 .223 10-SHOT BLACK SIX POSITION STOCK AR-556 HB 5.56 RFL 16B 10R 8511-RUG”
Have not yet seen any forensic explanation for his perceived motivation. The Atlanta murders can easily be given a Trump induced racist reason, although I heard the Police Captain say that murderer was just, ” having a bad day.” My hope is that they reopen Alcatraz, or maybe repurpose Guantanamo to accomodate Trump and his troop. No guards, no kitchen nor laundry staff. Just air drop necessities. No, not Guantanamo, Cuba belongs to Cubans. That occupation should be appealed. I was stunned to learn how many colonies are under US control. This COVID lock down has given me opportunity to follow an old pursuit, History.
Phil,
I heard Biden wants to (try to) change the laws in order to prevent guys like this can so easily buy weapons like that.
I hope he succeeds, but that will need the cooperation of at least some republicans as well….
Guru,
I know you joked, or suppose you do, bug this was firstly one of the many different types of small coffee machines, with which I have little experience, as I make my home coffee in a different way, so I asked a colleague there to assist my exploration.
he had little experience as well with it, but the first big hurdle was he could not find any coffee pads in the chests above the sink.
I had looked briefly as well, but he looked more and gave up.
a bit later a staff member came by so I asked her if there were coffee pads, she opened the chest, and took out a Tupperware container full of pads.
another one had decaf pads…
I laughed and had a good time asking my fellow volunteer whether maybe he had poor eyesight, haha!
then I told the staff member I had also not been able to find coffee spoons, and had looked for a drawer in vain.
the drawer was ‘invisible’, no handle, no rim to pull on, you had to push it inwards to make it open outwards, yeah, right…
i thought only electronical devices make things more difficult than necessary.
my colleague who works there for a long time also discovered that drawer now for the first time….
and now also found out where the coffee pads are.
I know now which buttons to push for one or two cups and to start up the machine etc.
as I said, even learning this feels great, now it means independence for me, and actually good coffee as well, I might buy one of these as it is the first one I run into who does not use plastic coffee pads but coffee pads made of some thin gauze like material, looks not like such a threat for the environment…
M
Margaret,
Biden would need 10 Republican senators and all the Democrats on board, so nothing is likely to pass.
Phil
I grew up on Western movies. I trained in the Army Reserve to combat level. I own a hunting rifle, 5 cartridges maximum. It’s stored safely with a trigger lock for extra control. The ammunition is under lock in another cabinet. I owned a vintage 32 handgun which I destroyed decades ago and sent the parts to landfill, where IMHO they all should be. An emotional bit of me still thrilled for handguns. A carry over from my age 8 – 11 gunslinger days. I was happy to see it had vaporized when a friend passed me his newly acquired Colt 45 Peacemaker. It felt repulsive. Other Countries have sane gun control and it works. Canada had legislated that under a Liberal gov’t only to have the next Conservative gov’t dismantle it to serve their caveman base. I suspect that at this time any US politician enacting sane gun control would have the life expectency of doctors in an undefended abortion clinic.
Margaret, I understand there may be many different newer types of coffee machines with a learning curve attached to them. I see those paper gauze coffee pads at hotels on occasion.
I stick with a super simple Black & Decker machine myself, yet I can understand why the pads would be much more suited for you than using measuring spoons as I do.
First they have to round up Jessie James, Billy the Kid, the Holen in the Wall gang, and lure Matt Dillon back to Dodge…. Vicki, it’s still the WILD WEST, mentality wise. A recent US gov’t report stated that as of Dec 2020 it is estimated that the number of guns wighs in at 41 for every adult and child…. I’ve got 27 guitars and some think that makes me nuts. It bloomed when Obama was elected, and again with Biden. Sandwiched in between was the Megaidiot Trump encouraging the stockpile. They’d murder Biden and his cabinet..
On a different, but related, note , we have folks move here in the sticks, from the big cities, wanting the simpler life, ” … where everybody knows your name,” and we’re totally shocked by a murder. Give them 6 mo – 3 years and they realze they can’t do without that fix and back they go.
Phil,
two days ago we had memorial gatherings for the terror attacks from 5 years ago on the airport and subway line.
it was heartbreaking to hear some of the testimonies.
one young woman was assisting to help, eventually sitting by a young badly wounded boy.
then a third bomb was found, one that had not yet exploded.
she had to leave, no choice, and leave the little boy behind, hoping somehow he would make it to the hospital.
he never did, and she still grieves about having had to leave he while she actually had two young sons herself.
now a lawyer, who was also there and wounded, started a group lawsuit against the government as they received little help so far, insurance companies still quarreling etc.
he also started crying in front of the camera.
all that hurt, all that sadness.
when asked about feelings of hate, some victims said they felt no hate, were far beyond that as there just was so much grief and sadness…
M
Guru,
Hey,
if you assume using a measuring spoon would be a problem for a blind person you are the very worst kind of guru imaginable…
M
I don’t know?? I could imagine the pods would be a lot easier? I figure my hands would get dirty in the coffee grounds and also in trying level off the spoon. You’d have to feel around for where the grounds were spilled to scoop up debris every time, etc. Pods would eliminate all that.
Plus there’s the matter of pouring in the right amount of water. Not sure how that’s done.
When my coffee is freshly opened from the can, I use about three and one-third tablespoons for the brew basket. Also I dampen the coffee filter in the basket so the filter doesn’t collapse onto itself during brewing. In other words, it ensures the filter ‘sticks’ to the basket.
As the can of coffee slowly grows more stale I increase the tablespoons used, normally up to four tablespoons towards the time the can is nearly emptied weeks after purchase and breaking the lid freshness seal.
Measuring out the final fraction of a tablespoon would be enormously difficult for those with eyesight issues, I would imagine.
If I truly wanted the very best coffee I’d grind the beans myself immediately before brewing…something worth trying sometime, but I have enough little details to keep up with in life as it is already. Maybe I’ll get obnoxiously rich soon and hire somebody for that.
All this brings me back to my maternal grandmother and her relative affluence when I was young. She had a part-time housekeeper for grocery shopping and other basic chores. This is a luxury I never experienced.
With all due respect and apologies, Margaret, I am going to have to build myself up to a state of not caring what you believe about being the very worst kind of guru imaginable. I understand there’s potentially an inherent quality of unlovable obnoxiousness to that stance, though.
Guru,
what I said has nothing to do with the level of your lovability.
it is more that a guru is supposed to have a very clear view about the world and your view about my own world does not seem very accurate to me.
so maybe you should refer to yourself as the Incredible Superstar Guru Trainee?
m
Margaret, I think you make a very clear case for guru demotion, and maybe it would best be “guru trainee”, leaving out the superlatives.
Nah, guru-dom all the way! Even if I didn’t accurately peer into your own life, there are still 7,6 billions other living people on Earth who have not definitely said I am not their guru yet. Why don’t we ask them one at a time?
And have we asked the 105 billion people who have died whether or not I am their guru? I don’t think so!
makes me sad…but i can’t weep. who would i weep for if i felt safe to do so? me and my lost youth? lost tragic drunken youth? or for the tragedy that has been the lives of blacks in this country because of assholes. cracker ass crackers and george washington too.
the rolling stones brown sugar https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59K2kF6o9Tk
“Gold coast slave ship bound for cotton fields
Sold in a market down in New Orleans”
The clear evidence that so little humanity has increased makes me weep. That makes me weep for all of the victims of classism and te contempt it seeds. My own poor quality of life makes me weep. What seems to be a glimmer most often proves to be one more game to keep the scales balanced in favour of the, ” slave masters.” Craftier not kinder.
i would weep for the absolute cruelty that my life became early on. as i can see the fear in the eyes of young black toddlers.
i weep for my youngest son, who bore the brunt of the insanity in our home. he is still fighting to get out of that misery. i caused unbelievable sorrow to many, many lives.
Any Thoughts on the Republican vote suppressing tactics in Georgia and several other states ? The GOP lawyer arguing before the Federal Supreme Court stated that it’s their only chance of winning another election. Without it the USA would be Democratic across all levels of gov’t. The great democracy myth in action. I was going to say, in ” Technicolor,” but the GOP paints itself white.
Canada’s Conservative Party voted last week to continue to officially deny climate change, overruling the convention statement by their leader. Their anti abortion stance is still well antrenched. They also have no coherent modern policy, just vitriole, lies, misrepresentation, and character assassination.
Renée,
Since I’m weighed down with matzah balls, gefilte fish, chopped liver, all kinds of meat and three glasses of wine, I’ll keep it short.
Vicki is now the third person, this round, that feels you are angry and aggressive, as Margaret and I also just did. And still, you somehow maneuver yourself away from it. You have never addressed anything Gretchen wrote to you, never acknowledged any real hostility toward me, and now claim that any discussion of what Vicki brought up is pointless. In other words – you will not, under any circumstances, own up to or really talk about it here. You do hint at but will not allow it existence other than through projection, as in one of your replies to Guru,
The same goes for your recent reply to Margaret which for me falls within your “having ingenious ways to avoid this feeling”.
Daniel; This the most clearly voiced post from you that I have read. The first I finished, because I am usually turned off for reasons I will describe. I do not know any of you personally. I have judged Margaret’s posts genuine; and no issue with Vicki’s. Do all of you folks know each other ? I don’t know Renée personally. To be transparent we have chatted via email; never about Primal. To be clear, circumstances changed, I’d reapply to the PI in a breath. The therapy and the staff I interacted with were convincing. I’ve worked with enough colleagues who should never have been permitted access to living beings. And was bullish at saying so. My defenses were another thing; and I had time constraints; my time further shortened when my now exwife virtually deserted our children. My experience was productive; the process it ignited drps away, still.
I’m a better candidate now.
This is just a preamble, to out myself a bit, to a short statement. Did this conversation between Vicki and Renée provide you with a piling on opportunity ? This is likely 100% unfair of me, not knowing you, but that’s the thing. your posts always leave me feeling like you employ sesquipedalian loquaciousness, and encyclpoaedic form, as a bullying armor, also designed to protect you from any resulting reprisal/responsibility. Correct me, only if you wish, if my perception of you is incorrect; or, I may have missed it in some early post, and, only if you wish, how do you see yourself.
Daniel, you nailed it. Thanks. I also saw those too.
David, I knew Renee while she was in therapy, and saw her in groups for years, and others on this blog have known her in person, as well. There is a long blog history involving Renee — you would have to go back through the pages and hunt for the comments that echo this pattern, there have been numerous “rounds”. Often I haven’t responded, from “not time and not worth the effort”. I think it makes me angry, because I feel Renee is manipulative. I see she is using her cleverness to pretend “candor”, turning her interactions into a game, to hide herself — although I remain in doubt about how cynical the game is, and how much she knows. She is determined to avoid any vulnerability, and doesn’t take any undefensive risks. At bottom, it may boil down to fear, and shame, etc., but Renee is “playing it” as if she is on top of it all, and in control.
Yep; I bet if Dr Janov was still alive he might write another book and call it, ” Prisoners of Pain.” How do we get unfucked up once the damage is done ? Primal Therapy is, ( ‘Jackism,’ inserted here) IMHO, the answer. Today, I realized how I look for reasons to do an anger rant, anonymously is best; I can cowardly avoid taking responsibility for it. Emails to a Customer Service agent is perfect. I really thought it was the other person getting their deserved upcomings. They do, but it’s the scale of my response. Sometimes I’m pissed because I can’t get angry enough. I recall beating on a school mate, age 6 or 7, because he laughed at me for crying because my cat died. My mother killed it. Maybe it’s what happens when a child doesn’t have the safety to talk back to the right person at the right time. That was me for sure. Oh, and I’m not being snarky or pointing an ambiguous finger at you, Vicki. These posts just started a Primal Thread for me. I’m grateful.
Hey Renee? Do you remember a couple Passovers ago you talked about the struggles you had with the Seder meal with your mom and family? I don’t remember all the details, but I do remember suggesting you join in with them drinking some wine to make things easier.
Would you consider a glass of wine or two before blogging? It might yield some interesting results you may not appreciate right now.
I think Barry discussed having a glass of wine or two, now Daniel’s taking part.
I had to drink a fair bit of beer to open up about my grandma and her apartment. Vicki remarked on how sad it was that it required a fair bit of alcohol consumption for me to open up about that.
It’s possible you might be suffering from fearful ‘over-inhibition’ merely as an unconscious handicap and you just might need a small amount of chemical assistance, especially considering you’ve likely been away from LA for a while and your defenses have had too much opportunity over time to choke off meaningful growth?
The downsides of such an experiment would be negligible, anyway.
Hey Ugg? Do you remember when I told you that you were wiser than you gave yourself credit for? Well, I hope I don’t offend you, but I don’t think this advice would fall into the “wisdom” category. It would probably fit more in the “creative” or “well-meaning” category. If I drink a few glasses of wine before blogging, with the goal of opening up to please others who think they know what is going with me, I could very well end up with a drinking problem. This is hardly a negligible downside if you ask me! A few decades of therapy cured one addiction. I’m not looking for more time in therapy to cure another addiction. I know I should probably take more risks in life……this is just not one of them. FYI, my posting about E. Michael Holden and what must’ve been a very stressful time for him, was an attempt to inspire some critical thinking skills in Vicki. Clearly, I failed.
Bullshit, Renee! — I have no lack of “critical thinking skills”. You seem lost in digging a deeper hole in the sick and angry game you are playing. I am not buying your pose of innocence. Go shovel it elsewhere.
David,
I don’t know anyone on the blog personally, although it appears I did meet Lesley (she was friends with my housemate) on several occasions back in the 1980’s. As for your other questions, I’m afraid I can’t answer them – only others can experience me whereas I can only feel or think this or that. Did you really expect me to respond, “Yes, I use sesquipedalian loquaciousness as a bullying armour to avoid responsibility?”
As for my blog relationship with Renée, if you have the time and interest you can research it on the blog and decide for yourself whether I used Vicki and Renée’s conversation as a piling opportunity. Perhaps you haven’t read how Renée recently depicted me. If after reading her comment you still can’t see what bothered me about it, please read my understanding of it (second paragraph).
There’s also a short summary from couple of years ago of the evolution of how I got to feel the way I do about Renée. So again – I can only present my views, feelings and reactions. How honest and relevant these were and are, is something for you to decide for yourself.
For you to judge if it is a useful thought to ponder on; if I’m wrong and I have at least 100% of being wrong trash it. Again in this post you’re as clear as bell. Maybe I’ll reread a few of your earlier posts. I strongly reacted to you, and couldn’t connect it to my usual reasons; better looking, more popular, more successful; none of those fit. Seen as picking on a woman,?…. maybe. That would be bloody arrogant of me. I had a reaction to Patrick and Jack’s ongoing dance. I knew Patrick a wee bit. Jack and I ended up being distance pals via email. I just recall feeling that the posts felt like a game, big words, ( like I used to do,) complicated ramblings, and I thought this is like bullying behind a shield. Sorry, cannot get it quite right.. I’ll review a few and see if it still jumps out at me.
Again, thanks Daniel. It was good to reread those links, and remind myself about what has happened, as I tend to forget some details of just how twisted and bad it got, especially for events in which I was not as involved as others.
I was in the newbie PI, ” class,” of August/86
The page is super snail mail slow loading, again. My MPS download is 230, upload 77; fibre op… is anyone else experiencing this ?
Daniel,
If there’s one thing I absolutely DESPISE about drinking, it’s the hangovers. I just wanted to post a suggestion for any future wine drinking you may partake in: Stick to light-colored or white wines such as White Zinfandel or Pinot Grigio. Lighter colored drinks have fewer congeners which contribute to hangovers. That is all.
Guru, With me it’s not so much the hangovers the next day but the headaches on the same evening, sometimes carried over to the next morning. I never used to have them when I was younger but I have them now. Not with any kind of wine (you’re right that non-reds are less abusive). For this Seder I bought some Australian red wine and New Zealand white. The price was right and I also wanted to add my miniscule support for Australians in face of the Chinese boycotting their wines (and other products). Surprisingly the Australian red didn’t give me any trouble, so perhaps it also varies with the type of red. I’ll try the Australian again in case this was just a fluke.
Do you find Organic wines different ? I only very , very, infrequently consume any alcohol but study all foods intake. The claifiers such as isonglass and sulphites were irritants for me when I did once have a glass of wine more often. In 86/87 Gallo Bros produced a White Zinfandel which I spotted at Trader Joes at 7 11 prices. I bought some. Later it was a winner at International contest. Price changed. Mine went into the dumpster when I left LA, April/87.
David,
Never thought of trying organic wines. Certainly worth a shot. Thanks.
Well, reread a few posts, and, hat in my mouth, chewing vorciferously, there it clearly is, I reacted to thinking you’re smarter, broader knowledge base, the whole package. My fragile self image.
Were you in LA in 86/87 ? Are you in Quebec ? I recall a Daniel coming to our place on Sawtelle;
erl_t83@yahoo.com
David, I was in LA from 1983 to 1988. Perhaps we ran across each other back then. However, I’m not nor have I ever lived in Quebec.
Guru,(T. Smiley),
I found your comment to Renee actually quite caring and kind, and in this case it could be useful advice.
too much fear and pain tends to push us out of the ‘feeling zone’, doesn’t it?
see, nothing wrong with your lovability in my eyes…
m
I feel so bad about the comments to Renee i got up out of bed upon reading them, even while it is only 6 in the morning to write a comment .
people who know Renee from therapy should know how much pain and fear there is right underneath Renee’s armor of defense, which is meant to protect her from all the despair it can trigger.
I understand those defenses can cause impatience and anger, but hurting Renee in my opinion won’t help her at all, on the opposite, it worries me and disappoints me, you guys should know better, at least that is how I feel.
there are ways to say what you had on your mind while being honest but also a bit more gentle.
Renees response to me was honest and for her and for being on the blog quite vulnerable.
I don’t know what happened in therapy after I was in groups with Renee in which she was very vulnerable, it must have occurred after that, what you refer to , Vicki, that she stopped therapy altogether, if that is really what happened.
Renee, if you feel like talking, whenever, you can always get in touch with me, feel free to do so.
Dear Renee, you carry a lot of hurt, fear, anger and shame, but above all you are a truly nice, gentle and generous person when you feel safe enough to show your true colors.
wish you would attend the primal zoom groups now and then, it would be great to have you there, Margaret
Margaret, In your opinion, what in Renèe’s defences is causing specifically impatience and anger (of all other possible reactions)?
Margaret, I appreciate your kind, empathetic and heartfelt words to me. It feels good to be communicated with in a way that is respectful and understanding. Thank you. 💗
Margaret, I think you have fallen for Renee’s manipulation and chronic dishonesty that she has developed into quite a bad skill. Years ago, I remember some times when Renee did appear vulnerable in groups, but then it was clear she was feeling something — yet unfortunately, she didn’t seem willing to stay with the painful and confusing feelings (as she called them), and instead turned defensively angry — as if (for example) she really believed someone was trying to hurt her (in the present), instead of being able to accept that she was already in old feelings that she needed to continue feeling and expose (express, talk about, not continue evading). She was literally unwilling to risk showing herself, and angrily and painfully left — this happened multiple times, even after being told she should stay. I do understand we all go through phases, but her pattern became entrenched.
I used to be more sympathetic or empathetic toward Renee’s difficulty with this,I think because of my own terrible time early in therapy, that led to my leaving therapy for 13 years, during which I struggled to save myself from utter failure, with mixed results. But the longer I have witnessed Renee’s engagement on this blog, I have more clearly seen her distortions and deceits. If she had not started taking out her feelings on P.T., the P.I., and this entire Blog, I would likely have just ignored her. Margaret, I think for some reason, you are unwilling to see the extent of Renee’s twisted actions. Her “innocence” is really feigned. She is playing you, and everyone else here, too.
I have also repeatedly seen your tendency to kindly excuse peoples’ bad behavior, whoever they are. I don’t know, but wonder why, if you can even answer, what that means for you.
Vicki wrote: .”(Renee) was literally unwilling to risk showing herself, and angrily and painfully left — this happened multiple times, even after being told she should stay.”
I don’t want to pile on Renee under the guise of commenting on this; but I did feel as though Vicki deserved at least small bit of corroboration from me on this one.
One of the few times I did interact with Renee, she was extremely angry at a large group session. She stormed out of the room for at least the rest of the entire day, in the process throwing a nasal tissue right into my lap!
Again, I am just writing this as an impartial witness backing up at least one instance of what Vicki is trying to say.
Since this took place decades ago, I also can see why Vicki might say this has become an entrenched pattern anymore.
At least to me it’s understandable why one would want to angrily storm away from a group scene rather than to lay down and feel continuous and utterly horrific defeat on a whole-body scale, though.
Your words are moving, ( not a Primal term, (: ), Margaret. Over the past year I have become somewhat intolerant; montoring it but still no clue. I used to be so non judgemental it was injurious to myself. I have moved away from friends whose belief systems became so ,” Trumpy,” triggering I felt suffocated. And I feel less motivated to socially engage.
My, ” seasonal,” symptoms have startedagain. One difference, the feelings were triggered by a recent emotional hurt, disappointment. Not belonging anywhere, not wanted, not important. My tool is to go away, and wallow in self pity. But the reasons are real. There has always been something different about me. Whatever it is, non personal acquaintances, ” love,” me and exalt my being; intimate relationships, I finally admited, rely on me being of some use. I hear from old patients who credit me with saving their lives. The freedom I extended them has not been as well received in intimate relationships. My ex wife once told me it did not feel special to be loved by me because I loved everyone.
My long term best friend, now passed, and I were always thrilled when patients did not credit us with their improvement. We believed it was far better, empowering, that they viewed it as having done it all on their own.
The older I get my currency wanes even more. It hurts. And I’m fed up with excusing bad behaviour. I NEVER say, anymore, ‘ Oh, that’s all right.” It isn’t. But, even that response, I question myself if I’m just trying to hurt back at them. Fuck, it must be easier being a plant…
David,
which one of my comments was it you responded to when you said my words were moving?
I ask because I wrote a few comments that were a bit different from each other recently.
have you found a balance again now for yourself in still accepting your own judgments and not being too judgamental now?
i hope you can find some good company that adds warmth and joy to your life.
Margaret (and cats )
Your most recent writing to Renée, Maggie….
David,
just read your next comment after replying to the former one.
my own comments might appear with a delay, as a friend copy pastes them for me on the blog.
when you hold back on responding to someone with a reaction that you feel coming up, but censor , as you say not to hurt the person, is that really for them or is it more a need to be liked by them?
I think an honest, kind response is what keeps a true friendship growing, and even then, it is not always necessary to express it, when it would not be constructive in any way.
but I am sure you have all it takes to know or find out what feels right and what doesn’t, for you or for the other person.
as you say, you have to take care of yourself and like yourself to start with, your own judgment seems the best guideline.
no need to be friends with everyone, sometimes characters just don’t match, isn’t it?
the role of a therapist is of course a special circumstance, although not that basically different really.
sorry, I am freewheeling a bit here…
M
Agreed. I came to realize they weren’t friendships, more like non patients with patient type needs. I believe I inserted myself into people’s lives. I’m nearly 75 Margaret and still am socially inept. I stayed in less peril by looking after my mother. I clearly tagged looking after as friendship. I set the stage and kept going back. Yep, trying to meet my needs. Using the wrong tool for the wrong job. Realizing and doing something about it also limits my socializing further. ” I’d rather be alone, alone, then be alone with someone else,” is another of my old bullshit lines when I got dumped. I’ve cried aloud to myself that I’m so worthless, so stupid,
I can understand why my mother tried to kill me. Worthless, useless, of no value; alone. I need to cry but don’t have whatever to do that again today.
I can smell and taste that Primal snot
Daniel,
I think I expressed that already in the comment I adressed to Renee a little while ago.
I recognize a pattern all too familiar to myself, out of hurt and fear lashing out, a kind of preventive defense, or an attempt for it, but it usuaaly works counterproductively.
it is better to allow one’s vulnerability, but that needs some level of feeling minimally safe.
it is a very hard place to be in, a catch 22 situation
I was watching a video on guitar building when a Myanmar news clip appeared and before I was prepared the murder of 100’s of unarmed civilians flashed on the screen; including a toddler, actually the closest to the Army murder squad. Horrible of HORRORS
I know our Countries’ soldiers do the same thing, are ordered in pre engagement orders to do so, “a toddler may be wired;” Vietnam, Afghanistan,Serbia, Iraq, Syria; British Isles of , Guernsey and Jersey, and France, after WW11, ended, our troops raped and sodomized, and murdered women they believed fraternized with German troops, didn’t resist enough… We’re a fucking lost cause, humans.
https://www.google.com/search?client=opera&q=song+Universal+Soldier&sourceid=opera&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8
Margaret,
If I understand you correctly, your theory of why Renée’s defences are causing others to feel impatient and angry is that Renée is defending herself by lashing out at others. According to your theory those occasions of lashing out, meant to cover an underlying pain and fear, are antagonising people – hence their impatience and anger. Your responding comments to Renée are perfectly in line with your theory, trying to show her that emerging from her hideout with her pain and vulnerability may not be as frightening as perhaps she fears.
My theory is completely different. First, Renée is not lashing out. That is exactly the problem. I think people are antagonised precisely because her aggression, superiority and contempt are usually hidden behind grand political theories, morning chuckles, false concern, and violent innocence. There is something misleading about Renée, in that you never really know who she is.
Take Renée’s avatar. Most of us have one of three: a personal picture, some scenery, or something WordPress assigned to us automatically. Rarely, someone will design a personal avatar (Jo had a nice one with transparent layers). Renée, on the other hand, has a picture of a boy with a dog. It is a nice picture and perhaps all of you personally familiar with Renée know what it means but I do not. Is the boy in the picture Renée’s son? If I remember correctly Guru once asked Renée if she has a son but got no reply. Is that a loved brother, perhaps somehow gone? I remember her writing here her brother bullied her, hardly someone she would use as her avatar (unless she is somehow commemorating his persecution). Is that another brother? A lover? Or is that Renée herself as a child, meaning she has transitioned to being a woman? Be that as it may, what comes across (to me) is “I am not who I’m presenting myself to be. You will never know who I am” (a rather superior attitude).
And then there is the constant evasion and deflection when people confront her about her aggression, or the complete ignoring when it comes to Gretchen’s remarks. For me personally, the most telling example of how invasive that tendency of her is was that somehow I got to promise her not to make personal comments about her anymore, the kind that try to look under the hood. Now why would I agree to restrict my freedom in that way? Was this an unwritten agreement between the two of us, where both of us would curtail our freedom of expression on the blog? No, it was not because Renée continued to freely make assumptions, almost always wrong, about me, what I believe, how I work or treat my patients. So, what was it? For me it was an instance of how Renée is using her vulnerability as means of controlling what others may say to her (especially when they come close to her denied aggression).
Does this mean that Renée is not traumatised as you believe her to be? No, it does not. I am sure she is, and that primal pain is ‘alive and well’ in her. I wish her to find a way out of it. However, I am not sure one can completely circumvent one’s so-called defences and go directly for the underlying pain without risking those defences remaining in place, keeping hindering further development, entrenching the pathological status quo (the personal one, not the political one Renée is, in my opinion, projecting into), and unwittingly turning the primal voyage itself into a defence as well.
From a long time ago I knew Vicki on a ‘semi-well’ basis since we buddied at at least one retreat and had lots of small groups together. I also met Renee and Bernadette on a few occasions as well, though my interactions with them were much more limited than with Vicki.
My point here being, based on personal recollections, I have serious doubts Renee is a transsexual.
Ugg, you’re dating yourself! The term “transsexual” is rarely used anymore. I think you mean transgender. And you are right to doubt Daniel’s assertion (one of many false assertions, BTW). I am cisgender.
Guru, My point wasn’t whether Renée is a transgender or not, but the “I am not who I appear to be” thing.
I was 7 I ; October; Standing on a boulder near my neighbour’s barn looking down on the ball field, full of giddy exuberance. I had figured out my remedy. My internal dialgue had to do with transforming myself into someone my family could love. I practiced the perfect wink my brother made while eating that they thought was cute. I’d will my thick hair to thin like my father’s and I practiced his somewhat bow legged gait. They never did want nor love me. Never would. I never became acceptable. Recalling that brings horrific sadness of hopeless and that flat empty hole in my chest. My failed suicide attempt. When I regained conscious consciousness 2 wks later, was told, I was in my parents’ bed sitting on my father’s lap my back against him. I was so sad, so angry I was alive. Maybe I’ve been so ever since. And that empty cold flat hole in my chest. I went home from LA for xmas / 86. My father told me he loved me. That coldness consumed me. I always hugged him, said I loved him. The only response would be a bassy gurgle.The man I was terrified of could slay me with a glance, who never wanted me
Daniel, your overall theme was understood, but I wanted to lighten the burden of ignorance by imparting a tiny shard of knowledge. I was trying resolve with a great degree of certainty a very limited part of your post. The other items therein I cannot really answer for.
Daniel, I’m worried about you. Your seem preoccupied with analyzing me and finding all these negative and pathological interpretations to describe me. I get you don’t like me. But how did I get to matter so much to you that you invest so much time and energy into extensively dissecting me? And let’s say everything you say about me is true, then what? Where does that leave you?
Here it is – the superiority, contempt and false concern – all condensed into a single sentence (“Daniel, I’m worried about you”). I’m sure you know my point was not to analise you but to show how I got to my conclusion, namely that people are antagonized by you because of your hidden aggression. Showing that required some analysis. Where does it leave me? With better understanding.
Just look at the progression of this round. It began with your compliment on my International Women’s Day comments, to which you immediately added the activist Freud-Dora clip, knowing perfectly well how I’d respond to such a clip, having had some type of the same argument with me in the past. In other words, your compliment was hiding something else. Your words seemed to aim in one direction but your actions were pulling in another. At first I responded rather mildly. That didn’t fit your plan, so when I answered your “fiction” and “believing patients” question – all in all a balanced reply I thought – you pounced on me and finally drew the picture of me you wanted to draw which I summarized in a subsequent comment (March 14, second paragraph).
By then, Margaret was beginning to be concerned over what she felt was your “judgmental” attitude toward me and Phil. At first you again responded with words that seemed to acknowledge Margaret’s concern, but then proceeded to antagonize Vicki. Is there a relationship between those soothing words and subsequent hostile actions? I think there is.
This is a wild guess of course but actually I don’t think you are really sincerely worried about Daniel. Now if you had said Renee, that you were equally worried about Margaret’s analysis and comments I might look at it differently . It could not be that we are only “ worried” about those who have something negative to say. Are you worried about Vicki as well ? What about your own comments and analysis ? As for respect… were you being respectful when you told Vicki you would school her in critical thinking? I don’t think Vicki needs help in that regard. You have had comments and analysis on everyone here and that is your right but it is also the rights of others as well. To be honest I have found some of your comments rather shocking as you have characterized those who are not here to defend themselves in ways you either know not to be true or assume you know without checking your facts. Accusing someone of drug use without even knowing that person is so so wrong. Frankly it does not become you. Personally I think we forget how transparent we are particularly when it comes to other Primal people. As for the issue of safety…. creating a safe place to say our feelings does not mean we won’t here things we don’t want to hear on occasion. Part of what safety is about comes from the inside out, not the reverse. It is also not about the latest psychological language. It’s about our actions in the end. For instance not everyone who says they are “ woke” is actually woke. All that means is you can google the latest urban dictionary. The truth is we all have equal amounts courage and cowardice. You are no different and your need for “ safety” not more or less than theirs. Personally I think what people are sensing is your agenda. It does not seem direct as was the case when you posted the poem about Chevy after Jack’s death. Several people have mentioned your lack of response towards me. I don’t need a response. I only bring these issues up when I feel there is something the group as a whole needs to hear. It is up to each of us what we take in and what we don’t. Gretchen
“Part of what safety is about comes from the inside out, not the reverse.”
That is so so true, Gretchen. Although you’re risking being demonised for blaming the victim.
“kid, hey kid, what the hell happened here” asks antman after being asleep for 5 years.
he asks kid riding by on his bike through all the devastation. the look in the kid’s eyes as he turned around to look at antman says it all, the saddest look for 5 seconds and then he turns around and rides on with his life. unfortunately i couldn’t get the part with the kid in it. ‘What happened here ‘ (endgame) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Mjuoq5yQ1Q so sad. lots of people died. like my life. 23:55 into the movie
Daniel,
I do not like the way you use me, your interpretation of my comment, to talk about Renee and ventilate your anger in an indirect way.
by not talking to her, but about her, it feels you depersonalize her and that feels not ok.
M
Vicki,
I don’t feel I am not aware of Renee’s bullshit, like when she said she was worried about Daniel that was my first and immediate reaction.
also when you used that word to respond to her recently I agreed with you, as Gretchen says, her front is very transparent.
so I am not really trying to excuse her, but think i focus more on the underlying feelings, why does she behave that way?
I feel I am almost ending up talking about her, so I will address Renee herself from here on.
Renee,
I notice as others do you seem more and more entrenched in some kind of defense often using racism or sexism or whatever to hide your true feelings behind.
that tells me how scared you probably are, and desperate.
if indeed at some point in therapy you got stuck into feeling too unsafe to show your pain and vulnerability, that is a very hard place to be stuck into.
I remember you in therapy and how big part of group was getting angry at you, but then just that bit of suport enabled you to go deeply into a feeling of desperately needing your mom to stand up for you against your brothers continuous harassments.
sorry to bring this up here, hope you understand why I do.
My point is the pattern of fighting and arguing and increasing hostility from all parts does not lead anywhere constructive, and it also feels painful to me and I start worrying about how you feel, Renee.
I hate to think of how lonely you might feel.
so agin, you still seem to be longing to connect here, which is good, but I think you need much ore, this blog is not helpful for you at this point, nobody’s fault, everyone tries hard, but I think yo need to be in group, I really do, you need to be face to face with people , even just virtually, to be able to move forward with your feelings and to share them.
all struggles here do not help, I tried to stay out of them for a while, until I got too frustrated.
I don’t know if you see it but you do tend to set yourself up.
so dear Renee,
I care a lot about you, please contact Gretchen and join Sunday Zoom group, give yourself a chance by sticking to it for a while.
those groups are great, and I am really serious about this.
I will try to sty out of pointless struggles here on the blog again, and hope to see/hear you on Sundays in real time instead.
Margaret
I have to say, I also dislike the blog talking about someone, in this case Renee, when she is obviously here listening in. Just address her directly. I guess it has to do with the nature of the blog, but I don’t see it as a good feature.
Another thing is our ability to dig up past discussions, as if things are written in stone. I want to be done with whatever I said last week or last year. I’m constantly changing and evolving.
Phil
What I’d add is, if it was me having my motivations and intentions questioned, I’d want to try to clear that up the best that I can..
Phil
In other words, “what the hell happened here-THERAPY”
Margaret and Phil,
One of the last things that can be said about me is that I don’t address Renée directly. I have and many times so. The structure of this last conversation was such that I addressed it to Margaret but that is not a deliberate attempt to speak to Renée indirectly.
I’d like to add that Renée’s remark, “Daniel, I’m worried about you”, was obviously cynical and that to my mind aggression and cynicism have a place in human conversation. It’s just when the aggression is hidden that it’s annoying. In and of itself this comment was harmless but seen in the wider context of the conversation it felt like another disguised hostility.
To some extent I still feel sympathy for Renee even though Vicki has passed beyond this point, perhaps through her own hardened experience. My main area of sympathy lies within wanting to run away from some fucking awful feeling I may not ever be able to climb back out of, thus being much easier to just get angry at the people who facilitated my placement onto the precipice of that hugely terrible feeling.
Why would any of us want to stick around and listen closely to our body telling us we’re on the precipice of something utterly horrid and completely intolerable?
Daniel, I don’t believe that you can accurately hear anything I say to you. Along with Vicki, your mind is made up about me. That is why what I say gets instantly misinterpreted to fit your fixed, negative and mistrustful view of me. So, I will respond one more time to you and then I will need to take a break. Otherwise, I will get burned out. When I said I was worried about you, it had nothing to do with me expressing my “superiority, contempt and false concern”. When I read what you wrote about me, it felt disrespectful, mean-spirited, and hurtful. There was no evidence that you could see my humanity and any good qualities in me. Perhaps that was a reason why you couldn’t just communicate with me directly, as one human being with strengths and limitations to another. While we clearly have had many disagreements and we see many things differently, I feel sad that you have lost sight of my humanity and therefore the need to communicate respectfully. My challenge is not to respond likewise and in the name of “trying to help you” or “giving you my honest feedback”. When I try to see myself in you, which helps me to keep you human, I do see you as obsessed with me, as demonstrated by your frequently describing and analyzing in great detail, what you see as my deficits and pathologies, without bringing it back to yourself and what purpose this is serving for you. I can relate to doing this, at times, over the course of my life. For me, when I engage in this kind of behavior, there is a pretty good chance that it is serving an important purpose, usually by distracting me from other issues in my life that I don’t know how to deal with. Rather than face my own problems and limitations which can be very hard and painful, I find someone else’s problems and limitations to focus on and scrutinize. I’m pretty sure I inherited this coping mechanism from my mother, who inherited it from her mother. It’s part of the fine art of splitting. At the end of the day, though, it doesn’t really solve anything, except to provide temporary relief. That is why I said I was worried about you; in this regard you are somewhat of a mirror for me. One last thing……if, at some point in the future you can see me as a regular human being again, and if we are both still on the blog, you might want to just ask me about my avatar. I think my answer will probably make you laugh. It has absolutely nothing to do with any of your ideas.
Renee, I don’t think you can actually read and take in or understand the recent comments that Gretchen, Daniel, I and Margaret have written to you. I think they are likely too painful for you to even read, and so they only fit into your judgement that they “felt disrespectful, mean-spirited, and hurtful”, and so no discussion can be allowed.
Renee? Don’t leave the blog on us? Otherwise it’s just repeating the pattern of what Vicki & I talked about in live groups. If you’re truly burnt out and don’t want to carry things out further for now, at least give us a ‘period’ (.) or lone exclamation point (!) or question mark (?) to let us know you still are around and didn’t leave in an angry huff once more?
This is so weird here because I can feel faint plaintive wails of a sort asking for ‘mommy’ to come back.
Even on the adult scale, you’re still important to the blog and I hope you will slog through any currently uncomfortable feeling to keep your fingers glued to the keyboard. Thanks.
Ugg, what made you think I was leaving the blog? I only said I was taking a break from communicating with Daniel. That’s all. I’m not feeling angry. If I were to continue a conversation that felt pointless, besides feeling exhausted, I could see myself becoming angry. I am happy to communicate with you and others, if it feels purposeful and if I feel I have something to say. You say that I’m important to the blog. How so? I’m not seeing it.
Well if you weren’t important to the blog, none of us (Daniel, Phil, Margaret, Vicki, Gretchen, David, and myself) would be wanting to spend our time and/or emotional energy engaging with you, even if some of the interlocutors feel hostile or disagreeable to you.
At least from my view you do add a refreshing light-spiritedness to the blog along with some much-appreciated nurturing during key moments.
So yeah in spite of my not always agreeing with you on some social issues along with others concerned about the honesty level of your deepest intentions, there would still be a vibrant and playful brand of intellectual (and perhaps emotional) stimulation drained from the blog’s character if you departed.
I do echo Vicki’s frustration at times at how you tend to reveal relatively little about yourself, though. Does shame and/or guilt play a role in that approach?
I forgot to add Sylvia to that list, likely because she doesn’t appear as often as she used to (yet another valuable addition to the blog).
I’m also curious as to why you never respond to Gretchen? You’re never required to, of course, but it strikes me as so odd since she is one of the leading Primal matriarchs. You don’t have to explain why you never say anything to her, but I do feel compelled to say how strange it feels to me even though it’s not my direct concern.
excellent measurement of value, guru.
You think Daniel is obsessed with you ! You have initiated almost every conversation with Daniel. Including this latest one. I can’t imagine saying that to someone . We have all been victims in one way or another but we are also survivors. I think there can be a danger in falling in love with the idea of ourselves as victim in every situation. I have a hard time believing you have no insight into your own disrespect or bullying behavior while accusing others of that very same behavior. I can only suggest you reread your comments if you are truly unaware. I am not so sure as I tend to think you prefer negative reactions to no reactions. Otherwise why the increasing ludicrous declarations ? I do give you credit for returning when these confrontations inevitably occur but the running and hiding is likely not useful at this point. G.
This came up as I got ready for an appointment yesterday AM.
I was 7 ; October /53; Standing on a boulder near my neighbour’s barn looking down on the ball field, full of giddy exuberance. I had figured out my remedy, transform myself into someone my family could love. I practiced the perfect left eye wink my brother made while eating that they thought was cute. I’d will my hair to thin like my father’s and I practiced his somewhat bow legged gait. It didn’t work. They never did want or love me. Hated me. Never would. I never became acceptable. I was flawed. Recalling that brings up horrific sadness of hopelessness and that old flat empty hole in my chest. My failed suicide attempt the next May. When I regained conscious consciousness 2 wks later, I was told, I was in my parents’ bed sitting on my father’s lap my back against him sad, angry I was still there. And I felt that empty cold flat hole in my chest.
I went home from LA for xmas / 86. My father hugged me, told me he loved me. The coldness consumed me. I always hugged him, said I loved him. The only response before would be a bassy gurgle. He said it first that day. I wished he hadn’t.
The man I was terrified of who only hit me once but could slay me with a glance, who never wanted me.
David, I’m only going to proffer my opinion that guns scare the heck out of me and don’t seem to serve much of a useful purpose. I’ve only shot a gun once in my life, a .22 pistol given to me by a former childhood neighbor to try out. .
The deafening blast of deadly firepower and the knowledge I could easily end everything in a scant two seconds by turning the gun on myself during a wretchedly depressed moment made me lose all interest in guns.
It’s the knowledge of having an utterly horrifying option always close at hand, only seconds away during a moment of peak vulnerability.
Same situation as what my dad did when I was very young. We stayed at a 30-story Holiday Inn one time on the top floor. The balconies were not enclosed; they could easily be climbed over and you could just,,,,,,,jump.
When my dad took me out to the balcony as a kid, I was horrified at this realization at how someone could conveniently end absolutely everything on a whim and I immediately went back inside to watch TV instead.
I’m not saying I would actually **do** something like this; it’s the dreadful overhang of having such a horrible option only an arm’s reach away at all times that bothers me. The sheer gravity of it.
Griffith Park was terrifying. I looked over the unprotected drop and thought that jumping was the only way to have control, jump rather than just fall. My fear of heights has waned.
The option of a leap is there. The scariest thing about asking for anything, love, is knowing it gets nothing.
New York has finally legalized marijuana, but it won’t be offered for sale here until next year, when there will also be “lounges” for smoking. We’re a little late getting on board with this, as I know other states have had it legal for some time now. I don’t think it will help Governor Cuomo’s political standing, but it’s big news us anyway. Nothing will change for me, but I hope now that it’s legal, my younger son will find it less appealing. I think it’s healthier to be smoke and drug free.
Phil
very healthy reaction to guns guru
Whether measures are reliable and honest,….. useage is reported to have lowered since legaization here. How the heck would we know. Since legalization I have been astounded to learn who some of the major suppliers were for decades; not the sketchy character on the corner…
Agree. Now, if all alcohol containers were marked,
” POISON,”causes Brain, Breast and Prostate Cancer.”
Ugg, your question about why I don’t respond to Gretchen is a good one. And something others have also probably wondered about. Unfortunately, I am not comfortable answering it. This is due to my feeling protective of both myself and Gretchen, for different reasons. I know this response will feel inadequate. But it’s the truth and I didn’t want to not answer you.
Renee, OK admitting something is too hard to deal with and you want to back away is still an upgrade from outright cynical lying or dishonesty. I’m only going to guess at this, so bear with me: I think Vicki and Daniel are upset with you about what they perceive as cynical dishonesty for reasons related to an old article I read about Trump’s tens of thousands of lies he told. I REALLY wish I had kept a link to that article. The gist of it was that people who are lied to tend to feel insulted, their intelligence is insulted, and made to feel not worthy of the truth.
I can fully appreciate and empathize when someone tells me, “This is too difficult or uncomfortable to deal with, and I’m going to back away.” Fine, fair enough, no problem. But what comes next? If there’s a pattern of avoidance, I could only suggest (at least to myself) to look back at 5-10 instances where I avoided an uncomfortable topic with various people with a refreshed mindset and see if I can tackle at least one of the those earlier missed issues head on at that later point in time.
So essentially I would be setting up those ‘tough spots’ as bookmarks for later review to tackle later for possible breakthroughs at a more fortuitous time. The trick being that we can’t procrastinate TOO long on such things.
This is good advice, Ugg. Thanks. I’m going to think about it. I have a question that I’d like to ask you over email. Can you message me at reneefree2b@gmail.com?
OK, sent.
Such Bullshit, Renee, to whisper your deceit about “being protective” of Gretchen, when you know she has no need of anything from you, it is just your wish, although that has to be what you want — some connection to her, that you don’t have or can’t feel, never had, and are always trying to get, with all your games here, but without ever saying it straight.
Vicki,
it may be true, the things you accuse Renee of doing, but my feeling is you’re excessively hammering her with it. It could be I’m forgetting past discussions, or it just doesn’t hit me the same way.
Phil
Phil, I agree with you when you say that Vicki excessively hammers me. Sometimes it affects me and sometimes not, depending on what kind of day I’m having.
Phil, at first this made me angry, but later on my way to sleep, it made me cry in the feeling that as a child, I got slapped by an angry face for telling the truth, they didn’t like me anyway, and that hurt.
I know the feeling of “excessive hammering”, and often it feels it has a ‘strident’ and unrelenting quality. But I don’t agree with you because her actions are not simply a one-off incident, but repeated over years, as you say — “It could be I’m forgetting past discussions, or it just doesn’t hit me the same way.” and also “I want to be done with whatever I said last week or last year.” as if the past doesn’t follow us around, and matter. I do understand that when working through feelings, any of us can distort or misstate things, at the time — but I don’t believe repeated manipulation for years, should get the same allowance or “benefit of the doubt”. Especially when repeatedly confronted and ignored.
Last week, you complained “I also dislike the blog talking about someone, in this case Renee, when she is obviously here listening in. Just address her directly.” But your response to my addressing her directly remains that you don’t like it. I think maybe you don’t like any confrontation, I have the impression that in your childhood home “nothing would happen” about anything. So maybe that’s something more comfortable for you.
Vicki, I guess I’m not clear on what Renee has done to you to make you come at her like that. It’s true that I don’t like conflicts, and prefer that you let it go with Renee. I guess I feel protective. By hammering, I mean you’ve sent a lot of rather blunt and direct criticism her way.. I know you feel she’s using indirect methods to express her feelings, and that must be triggering for you. I tend to take people at face value unless I have real evidence to the contrary. If Renee says certain things about Daniel’s responses bother her, for example, I can’t conclude it’s something else entirely. I would need Renee to confirm some of the insights into her behavior that various people suggest. I mean, I think it needs to come from her. I try not to jump to any conclusions about people.
Phl
This has been a very slow week at work because the doctors are on vacation, leaving us very little to do. I’ve been catching up on paper work, but by today, there was almost nothing left to do. My coworkers mostly all went home early, but that means not getting paid, so all week I’ve been putting in my full time. Today it was especially desolate, and after I left some big feelings came out. It was about getting nothing, early childhood memories when no one was there and I was left all alone. Today I was realizing that kind of sums things up in general about my childhood, getting nothing, or very little. It’s probably why I’ve always preferred a fast paced work environment, with a lot going on.
The quantity and quality, including accuracy, of my work improved when my brain was totally cluttered with demands. Until I hit a burnout wall, then a period of numbness. Even then my internal dialogue ran along side everything else. Do you think we use that to avoid the old feeling memories ?
David,
I don’t know. Distractions like different forms of entertainment, reading etc., probably help serve to repress old feelings for me. Today things are a little livelier here at work, so that’s better.
At home, when I’m alone, I won’t make myself very busy doing things. I’ll usually find some form of entertainment or maybe self improvement. But chores and projects are not my thing, as my wife has discovered.
At work I’m trapped with limited entertainment possibilities, I think that has something to do with it. And I often feel unimportant here, because what I do isn’t the main service we provide. I like to be busy doing something important, at least in my mind, and important to others. I wouldn’t feel very satisfied or important making donuts all day.
Phil
I can say, ” ditto,” to all of the above. I used to replay conversations, what I said, what I should have said, when doing physical yard work. So I bought a Walkman; put a tape in and started push mowing my 1 1/2 acre lawn/field; how’d that work, mowing, listening to tunes and replaying conversations in my mind…
Yesterday the PT blog e letter opened with a guru post. I saw my name and , ” .. you are valued here,” I paraphrase. I thought it was for me. I was happy about that and a light hearted reply popped into my mind. It was for Renée. I felt really sad, like when I wasn’t picked for a pickup team. It had a physical symptom, the back of my throat, high in the nasal cavity. One of the triggers when I react and go invisible, and go away. I am unable to cry in that feeling. I became confused, threatened, labored shallow breathing. It has a name now,
‘ disappointment.’ Thank you guru.
You’re welcome, David, and if you wish for me to disappoint you or to be a deflating letdown in the future, just let me know.
Seriously, I went through all the reasons Renee was valued because she said herself she couldn’t see why she might be valued, so her question seemed worth answering.
It’s slightly possible her question was a cynical fishing expedition for obsequious compliments (‘All Hail the Queen!’) from what she may perceive as a starry-eyed fanboy (myself), but I’d rather just give her the benefit of the doubt & take her question at face value in spite of others’ concerns. It’s not as though she is on the same manipulative level as Trump and his minions have been, anyway.
i had a very busy night dreaming last night.
many mostly very pleasant dreams, filled with cute kittens and beautiful landscapes, including immense colorful caves etc.
then in one dream I was kind of ok, and then getting a ride home from an already passed away family member.
shortly after we took off, he suddenly jerked the steering wheel getting the car off the road, down a hill, and accelerated towards a thick brick wall supporting a tunnel.
I could only scream ‘no! no!! I don’t want to die!!!’, and a second later we crashed into the wall.
the next instant I noticed we were still driving in the same direction, but in another kind of ‘world’, clouded instead of sunny, green instead of mostly rocky…
I woke up and felt startled at the intensity of the dream.
my dreams are probably more vivid as I have stopped taking painkillers during the last five days, but still, my dreams usually have some feeling content.
so I wondered, and can only imagine, it is a bit funny, this could be a realy fast forward of a birth during I indeed must have felt like being about to die.
if this dream would help me primally, that would be great, but I doubt it, it would be too easy probably.
but maybe it is just a little step forward anyway, as my panic felt extremely real, and my certainty of really not wanting to die.
M
Margaret,
It sounds like it was an intense dream. Did the identity of the family member driving have some significance?
Phil
A few months back a recurring, presleep , ” movie,” started playing in my mind. That’s not unusual I, not very frequently these days, have little black and white vignettes unfold, entertaining, no meaning to me, maybe faces, one morphing into another; maybe people wearing clothing styles from past generations, including military; hairstyles, a cavalcade of antique cars, horses, barns, dogs, scenery, mothers with babies, old Native faces; the only troubling one was a repeating of a massacre of a Native village where I was a member but the other people didn’t seem to see me… they might last a short or long time. Always each feature is confined to one theme for that showing. I quite enjoy them. Back to the ,” movie,” I ‘m driving down a dirt road at night . It keeps getting narrower and the trees more dense, closing in, then they were replaced by walls of mud. I was terrified, I am claustrophobic, cannot watch a movie where someone is confined, as in buried alive or caged. I forced myself out of it. But every time sleep approached it started again. So I moved to my recliner. It repeated several nights, not consecutive, and I bailed every time it started. I cannot handle that kind of fear. I need to know I can get out. I don’t fear death just don’t want it to be by confinement. That’s what make the, ” I can’t breathe,” feelings beyond my ability to hang in.
David, I also often need to sleep in my recliner. Often when I’m really tired, that’s where I start, and then will wake too-hot after an hour or two, and move to my bedroom, but rarely can I stay sleeping in one place the whole night. Feelings arise either way, but take me by surprise more deeply lying down — lately they have started out more about fear, where I need to cover myself and hide. That need has happened occasionally for years, but without feeling “that I’m afraid”, although it occurred to me intellectually. But the feeling has grown to where I can ask myself, “What am I afraid of?”, and start getting some sense or ideas about it, an answer may float up. I have several times had tentative feelings (in bed or in the recliner) where I say out loud, “I’m afraid” and it will work itself more into the feeling that I didn’t know was coming. And that’s been very productive, in helping me get a handle on the fact that I’m afraid in my old feelings of pain. It is better than just having to be afraid in the present, of “whatever” and find myself acting that out. Bit by bit, it comes, and gives me more confidence that I can feel my way through it.
I read everyone’s stories about why they have so much trouble sleeping while I have zero problems sleeping seamlessly and dreamlessly from start to finish. I’ve even been sleeping on the floor every night for the past year to solve severe lower back pain and can still go right to sleep in less than two minutes. Sleeping on the floor completely solved my back pain as well.
It’s not as though I don’t have hugely serious stressors in my life worrying me, but for some mysterious reason my sleep has been left completely unaffected.
I’m sorry everyone’s having so much trouble,
I’m going to take that tip and once the weather is warmer sllep on the floor and see if it will help my body pain. Matrix Repatterning has loosened my joints, and they are pain free; now if the rest of me could be…
David, don’t expect instant results and I still sleep on a carpeted floor with a comforter spread on top. It doesn’t have to be a brutal hardwood floor, so an inch or two of padding is perfectly fine and you can always remove that later if you’re feeling adventurous enough. I use a bunch of pillows as needed. The first few nights will likely be a significant adjustment period.
Floor sleeping absolutely forces your body to follow optimal posture.
My severe lower back pain was 95% gone within 7-10 days. Almost miraculous.
LINKS: https://www.thesleepjudge.com/sleeping-on-the-floor-bad-or-good/
Dr. Katy Bowman claims floor sleeping is like an all-night body workout of sorts:
https://www.menshealth.com/health/a19518135/health-benefits-sleeping-without-mattress-floor/
The hardest part of floor sleeping for me anymore is simply standing up off of a completely prone position on the floor when I wake up. I simply use a small footstool or nearby sofa for a small amount of assistance standing up.
Another option is simply sleeping on a cushioned slat situated at thigh level as a mattress otherwise would be. Easy as a standard bed to stand up from in that case.
Final note here being that floor sleeping is commonplace in Asian countries, particularly Japan.
Someday I might return to mattress sleeping, but it would have to be an expensive, highly durable air mattress anymore.
I have watched a number of Youtube videos, Jungle Survival channel. It is mind blowing, for me, the creation of amazing living spaces in and above ground, spas, pools, using 2 primitive tools. These folks sleep on a hard earth raised bed. Their conditioning is amazing.
THank you for this. Years ago a client of my father, a doctor from Boston required his bunk to have a board sleeping platform with a sleeping bag on top. So many cultures have slept on hard surfaces…
Thank you Vicki. Fear was the theme of my early life Vicki. Another huge fear is that people will find out I am really all of the things my mother pronounced, stupid, bad, a liar; maybe where my imposter feelng comes from. My accomplishments were tainted by that. Sometimes I just don’t want to feel the fear, especially the terrifying fear that feels like dying, suffocating me, and I’ll say out loud, ” This is just fear, I’m ok,” to get away from it. Sometimes I have to sleep sitting in the recliner. Not sure why that medicates. I can’t imagine how much worse life would be without the help from PT. It tears me up what life would have been without the abuse.
Phil,
so far i did not think so, but now thinking about how to describe him, it could mean something anyway.
he was a nice elderly man married to an equally nice niece of my late husband.
so getting a ride in his car felt safe and pleasant, until the very moment I noticed he was about to kill us.
so well, it went from safe and familiar to suddenly becoming a deadly threat…
M
Margaret, I have had that sort of dream too. It’s either my dad or mom who is driving and we have a close call or run off into a ditch. With my dad I was a little hesitant to ride with him when he was declining in the last couple of months, and I told my mom not to go with him either. He was not able, I don’t think, to judge his ability and alertness on the highway then, being so ill.
Also, when I dream of my mom driving with me in the front seat, it is more scary. Knowing about her dementia, I am certain that we will crash as she speeds up and takes the curves too fast, but she seems so confident I can not persuade her to stop. Such was her personality in real life, not to listen to anyone when she made up her mind to do something. In both instances it is a loss of control, that my fate, my life, is in the hands of someone else. It is a scary thought. Maybe it goes back to birth, when I had no choice either. Maybe is a helpless feeling of not being able to get out of a threatening situation.
S
My ,” seasonal,” symptoms update; as of waking this AM my left hand, until I move it and yelp, ” isn’t there.” I feel like my left arm teminates at the end of my wrist. The pain this time is the worst in memory since the event 67 yrs ago. My right shoulder and forearm are numbed but if it plays out as in the past, they’ll become excruciatingly painful. My head is tilted to my right shoulder. My left eye vision is wonky, burry with occassional flashing pixelization. Had my biannual eye exam last week, no problem but aging eyes. Getting my first pair of glasses. It puzzles me, this was always a May thing. It comes on earlier these past few years. Maybe the , ” Leap Year Syndrome,” (:
If I probe my left large toe, TCM Meridian Theory, when the point that corresponds to the coccygeal vertebrae is compressed the pain subsides until minutes after it is released. If I traction my neck the pain is likewise momentarily relieved. Do not know which is the perpetrator and which is the victim. Amazing thing, the body complex. If it represents the storage of the feelings from those May 11, 1954 events, it’s beyond bloody amazing.
David, I’m curious what events happened May 11, 1954? I haven’t seen something about that here, before.
Sylvia,
Interesting!
specially the word ‘helpless’ in your comment struck me, it never occurred to me but it is so much covering the feeling I have in all those nightmares being persecuted by enemies trying to kill me, trying to get away or to hide, in vain usually, but as good as always on my own, no help available anywhere, so scared to death and helpless indeed…
M
Vicki, when I read what you say to or about me, I am often reminded of what Obama said in an interview when he was president: “If I want to feel bad about myself, I’ll watch Fox News”. While most people here, over the years, have had a variety of reactions to me, as I have to them, your reactions to me have consistently been negative. Sometimes I feel annoyed at you and just want you to leave me alone. Sometimes I feel empathy for you because there are times I can be stuck in only negative reactions to someone. I don’t know if this is how it feels for you, but for me it feels burdensome and heavy, like drinking poison and waiting for the other person to die. And sometimes I get really triggered and hurt. That’s when you remind me of my sister, who is five years older than me. From the day I was born, I always felt that she didn’t like me. My very existence angered and irritated her. These feelings of hers were heightened when my mother was paying attention to me. That’s when her belittling, bullying and mimicking me would get especially harsh and hurtful. My two brothers would often join her in ganging-up on me. And I’d often wish that I’d never been born because I felt my family would’ve been better off without me. What really messed me up is that I came to believe that her feelings about me were actually facts. I believe that most of us have traumas we never get over but rather spend our lives trying to heal from. For me, this is definitely one those traumas. So, while you certainly give me opportunities for further healing, sometimes I wish you could be a little kinder toward me. Which is what I wish I could’ve said to my sister. Not that it would’ve made a difference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRGgoMSJZs4 Jimi Hendrix on a Gibson Les Paul ? The Wind Cries Mary
I can’t remember why I stopped listening to music during group, since I’m not going to break into these big groups and have my say, and possibly feel something. Anyway, listening to this song and looking at this young woman took me right to my feeling. Core feeling or whatever. The crux or only world view or straitjacket of my existence for 68 years. Mommy the music-maker disappeared when I was 10 months old. Today being Easter flashed in my mind as I was sobbing. Easter was always a sad time for my family when I was a child because of my mom’s death. Easter usually meant a mandated trip to the cemetery to view gravestones of people who I knew nothing about. I don’t recall if I felt my grandma’s intense sorrow on those Sundays. Anyway, some new insights today, or some linking of previous memories became joined to this major life milestone feeling while I was crying. Always the staircase in my grandma’s big house comes to mind first. A memory of my young aunt’s face; she would be our mother later, while she was still in high school. She took care of me and my brother so my grandma could work. Another memory I have had before became linked to the feeling, the smell of bacon cooking and my aunt (my mom’s older sister) cooking in the kitchen. A memory of colored eggs being peeled, which has happened to me most of my years on the planet. My mom was beautiful, at least to me, and her music too, whether she played the piano or played classical on the record player. A memory of the doorknob jumped into my feeling. The doorknob where I last saw her, leaving the house forever. Maybe not on Easter. Maybe not to feel deadly sick from polio later that day. Anyway, I was able to cry today, not sure if any relief will come. I surely was in a bad mood today. I guess I got a chance to talk in group today.
This brought to recall the memory of looking through the keyhole to our kitchen, my mother bucking and writhing on the floor, foaming from the mouth; my father with his hand inserted into her mouth. Then she began snorting and snoring, then still and quiet. my brother pulled me away. I can say I thought she was dead. I have felt the terror. I was a toddler. In succeeding years I was torn between hoping she was dead and scared she was. She’d be kinder for a while after a seizure. When her cruelty got really scary I’d hope for a seizure. When I was 11 I was the only one to care for her when my father was gone. Id lay in terror in the mornings waiting for that machine gun throaty sound and then her crashing to the floor. I’d check her tongue position then insert a spoon wrapped with cloth to keep her from biting her tongue, and clean up her urine afterwards and help her to bed when she gained semiconsciousness. A few times she made verbal sexual invitations when I got her to her bed, indicating she thought I was my father.
One more circumstance that prevented me from fully hating her for the abuse thus my ambivilance towards how I felt about her. I didn’t want anyne to know she existed, was my mother. A teacher once asked me if my mother was dead because I never spoke of her. I thought she was crazy and people would think that made me crazy, too.
I confided in my Grade 4 teacher who told my mother the, ” lies,” i told about her. She also made me fill the blackboards with, ” I shall not tell lies about my mother at lunch time.” I found I could speed up the process my holding two pieces of chalk in my fingers. She caught me made me erase the entire work and start again. So another beating, threats, and the ridicule of school mates fell on me. I never told again.
When i started writing this several feelings were there. Then fear and numbness. The need to hide.
Renée,
I don’t know exactly what you mean by me being “disrespectful” or my failure to see your “humanity”, but I guess it has to do with you felling hurt. I do not purposely wish to hurt you, but I do wish to counter mischaracterisations and slander, and counter it with assertiveness (the first) and force (the second). In that regard, I’m not sure you are aware how at times you seem bound to irritate me and then proceed to feel hurt that I’m angry.
You seem to suggest that bringing some of what I say to you back to me might help me better see your humanity and perhaps for you to better consider what I say to you. Even though I fear mandating such a quid-pro-quo relations may serve for deflection and covering rather that revelation, I do find some of my young self in you.
In my teenage years, I felt very troubled. Eventually it got me to the PI. But before that happy occurrence, during my high school years, I found it unbearable to stay in many of my classes. Instead, my rebelliousness took me to skipping classes and hitchhiking or walking home, or to the school library. As my schoolmates were deep into grammar or math, I was reading Karl Marx. My rebelliousness found a certain kind of voice in subversive ideas.
But all in vain. It gave some voice to my pain but no resolution or a light at the end of the tunnel. Although I wasn’t rejected I still felt like I didn’t fit nor belong and my true existence was one of painful loneliness and incomprehensibility. When I tried to socialise with the rest of my schoolmates during recess it felt awkward and unnatural in contrast to what seemed to me to be their easy-going and socially comfortable manner. In other words, my external “stop the world I want to get off” demeanour, was actually a desperate cry, “stop the world I want to get on”.
But it had its advantages. I wasn’t able yet to be like me, but I was certainly able to defiantly feel, “I’m not like you”. In hindsight I’d say it was an important step in my own process of personalisation, but there was always a danger of succumbing to the luring impact of defiance, of getting stuck in that rebellious stage.
It took me many years to feel like I belong to anything and anyone although some of the essential aloneness remains to this day. In the process I had to feel many times the centrifugal forces for me in my own family; my father’s self-centredness and his resistance to involving me in his world; his underlying denied grief over parents who didn’t love each other and over losing his first wife to his brother; my fear of him and my fear that he will die; my mother’s unconscious need to protect and save and correct her own father’s image in me, which made her insist I’d fit in, be like everyone else, and made her depressed when I wasn’t; and then my own dependency needs and my defensive, desperately angry need to hide them, and shame when I inadvertently exposed them; my fear of not being wanted by the women I desired and the rough exterior I adopted as compensation and as means of hiding; my envy of those who were more successful, or had it easier, or were more manly than I was; my need to find blame when I couldn’t contain the uncertainties of life or the self-hate when things didn’t work out for me; and more.
And along the way I lost most of that rebelliousness, the pull toward extremes, and gradually came to value more of what life has to offer and mourn what it doesn’t offer me. I don’t think I will ever be as I could have been had I a more accepting, inclusive and even upbringing, and perhaps also a stronger innate constitution. But I accept that loss and am mostly able to face and contain it rather than act it out.
Finally, just like your invitation for me to ask you about your avatar, rather than make wrong assumptions and then mischaracterise me and my work, you can always ask me about how I treat my patients, what is the place of fantasy in my work with them, what do I do when people disclose abuse, etc.
I have two questions. One for Vicki and one for Renee. I like you both and I’m not wanting to be confrontational even if my questions give hints of being so. The questions are designed to help foster a greater understanding between Vicki & Renee, that is all.
–Vicki, do you think Renee is being deceptive out of overt cynicism towards the other bloggers? Or do you think it could possibly be ingrained in her family background and she is unconsciously acting it out? You said you had sympathy towards her reticence and evasiveness during the earlier stages of therapy, only for it to become more grating and unforgivable for you over time. Can you give more insight on how you arrived at that conclusion?
–Renee, a while back when I had those troubles with Barry you said you had no interest in protecting me (because I was looking to you as a protective ‘parent’ of sorts against bullying) when you stated you were only being objective. Fair enough, but one logical hole I am seeing here is that if you are willing to communicate with me yet not protect me, why would you be unwilling to communicate with Gretchen yet you claim you want to protect her? Don’t you find it unusual to not want to protect those you are OK with talking to (such as myself) , but not willing to talk to someone you are willing to protect (such as Gretchen)? I get that we are all just fallible humans and we aren’t designed to act as perfectly logical computing machines, but this logical hole is significant enough to have me believing it would helpful to share at least a little more of what you meant by protecting Gretchen.
OK, that is all. No hard feelings towards either of you.
Guru, not being a mind-reader, I don’t perfectly know things. But I do think Renee’s deceptions must involve cynicism, when they are about things that she knows are false (unless she is more crazy than I can imagine). But “unconsciously acting it out” seems like a stretch to me, although I guess not impossible — she had been in therapy for many years, considers herself a practicing therapist (last I heard), she makes comments as if she thinks she knows a lot about things Primal and psychological, and I don’t believe her “innocence” about her own self.
My past sympathy towards her involved seeing her make some effort towards showing her real feelings and struggles, but as I also said a week ago “…the longer I have witnessed Renee’s engagement on this blog, I have more clearly seen her distortions and deceits. If she had not started taking out her feelings on P.T., the P.I., and this entire Blog, I would likely have just ignored her.” Her attacking comments have left me no choice but to wonder “Why?”. If she truly feels the things she has expressed, why be here at all, except to grind an axe, refuse to respond directly to questions about any of it, and claim hurt and innocence? It makes no sense, that someone in serious and determined self-examination, would do this.
Was released from hospital earlier today after diagnosis of heart attack. Easter weekend, just a holding tank until Tues. No beds available so was placed in a windowless former storage closet holding area. Was on the edge of a full blown panic attack, ” gotta get away,” from the unknown threat. So I feigned being totally asymptomatic. Didn’t need a psych ward admission.THe good news was the troponin test for damage showed normal. So back on steamed brown rice and fruits. I don’t fear death but severe disability scares me. I had an MI, March/08, a whole story I don’t need to get into but suffice to say the childish ego of a local cardiologist in contest with my cardiac team who felt affronted by my total recovery through natural medicine and misrepresented it,/lied, in his file notes, complicated this admission.
Wow! That’s awful, David. I don’t even know what else to say. Take care.
Thank you.
David, sorry to hear the scary news and I would suggest talking with a medical professional if you’re in a fragile state before trying something like floor sleeping. Rigid positioning could affect a heart attack patient in ways I cannot possibly foresee, though that could work either beneficially or detrimentally…I don’t know.
Thank you. Back to congees of brown rice, quinoa, and fruits.
As Vicki said, “wow!” David. Do take care. That is a positive that the test showed no muscle damage. A big scare, nonetheless. Rest up and eat well.
S
Thank you. Motivation is a big issue.
Davud, I hope they’ve tested enough to conclude it wasn’t an MI you had. I hope you’re feeling better.
Phil
Thanks, Phil; they classed it as a heart attack, but, no muscle damage; which is technically part of the definition of MI.. ?? Any way time to cut my poor me bullshit. Life has been misery, I don’t think I can end it and if I’m going to stay alive I don’t want it to be as a veggie. The Internist heard a murmur in my left carotid artery; he’ll order tests to determine if it’s inner or outer artery and how to go forward. The balooning doesn’t have an admirable record. I was light headed with some facial numbing. Of course that could be many things, the sleep deprivation, no food and minimal liquid for nearly 48 hours.
I was close to a full agoraphobic attack which would have added nutter to the list. Had to get out of there and did. Whatever; I’m going to fess up to the doc about symptomology. There’s a whole back story I’ll maybe write about on here some time. I know I get too wordy at times. I feel embarrassed afterwards if it’s coming from my head or sounding like a spectator merely observing my story. I’ll try to do my best with diet, exercise and meditation. Me and willpower are not close associates.
David, That’s scary stuff. I don’t much like doctors, even though I work under them. It sounds like you’re on top of what’s going on, and getting good care. I don’t think you get too wordy, I hope you do write about the back story. Phil
Ok… I’ve been virtually a non consumer of alcohol since 1972 when I was diagnose with allergy. A T Totaller since 1987. In Sept, 2001, My daughter asked me to take my granddaughter to Emerge because of a bad eye infection. My now exwife, an ER RN, commented that the doctor was coked out. He had a reputation. I thought he was fine. He’s a competent doc. I had the job of cautioning him early in his civilian career for failure to report severe physical abuse, bruising and cutting, of an 8 year old girl. I was clear, respectful, and did an inservice with him. We’ve had no conflicts. A few years later, not his patient, but the hospital secreted away a severely abused failure to thrive toddler girl. The whole staff knew. A cleaner called me. The reason, the Grandfather was a local United Baptist cleric, not the nutter sect. Again my job to deal with the legal infringement and an attempt to offer clinical education. The latter was shunned and the hospital supervisor was cautioned by legal channels.
March 2008 I suffered an MI. October /08 I had an undiagnoseable event that happened an hour after my first simple carb meal since March, white rice with veggies. I was babysitting. Stuck it out until m daughter got home and left for Emerge without telling her about my distress. I laid on the exam guerney screaming, bawling; copious amounts of morphine and dilaudid didn’t touch the pain. I lost consciousness. At some point I saw a little me perched in the corner of the ceiling,was pain free and blissed out. Emotionless I thought, ” I’m dead.” I rolled my eyes to the right when I heard a sob. It was the locum doc. She’d been so kind. My body shuddered and sucked in a huge gasp of air. She hung onto the doorway and said, ” My god you’re back. Darlin’ I’m gong to send you to the smarts docs.” She sat with me until the ambulance arrived and bussed me to the Regional Hospital where I spent the next 8 hours in a back hallway on the transport guerney. A lab tech drew blood and later an MD, Dr Miller, quizzed me on my use of alcohol; not once but 3 more visits to the guerney. I told him the answer would continue to be the same because it was the truth. He said my liver enzymes were extremely elevated. I asked if a handful of Jamieson Digestive Enzymes I had taken for what I perceived as extreme indigestion after the high starch meal, he reran the blood screen and agreed since all was normal.
The doctor who saw my granddaughter in 2001 had written in his notes that I was intoxicated when I brought her in. I arranged to meet with him. I negated that info and asked if that was his opinion why did he ask me if I would drive her 140 miles to the IWK Children’s Hospital if the condition was uveitis, not conjunctivitis. That didn’t happen because IWK Pharmacy didn’t open until 7AM and a doc at the closer Regional could see her at 6AM. He became pushy and said he had experience and I was drunk. After trying to reason I got rationally angry, said, ” Ken that’s a fucking lie and I want you to fix it.” The tone deescalated but he stuck to his guns. He then amended the file to say when he confronted me I became hostile and volatile.
Lie 1.
Lie 2
I was treated for my MI at QE11, Halifax. The specialist team told me my arteries were clear but, likely stress, had caused an artery to collapse that would not have triggered the event but for a congenital anomaly. Given my age they believed a medicated stent was all that was needed and the only drug needed was a low dose Statin for 6 mo. Back at Regional the Cardiologist disagreed with the Cardio team, Cardiologists and Surgeon. I forgot to mention at Regional, pre transfer for surgery, I had called an ND friend, ( I have a Doctorate in Traditional Naturopathy,) She is a Doctor of Naturopathic Medicine, and has an MSC, Pharmacy.)I asked her to bring me the Homeopathic heart rescue remedies after being told I had more than 40% heart muscle death. My brother ratted me out to the Regional Cardiologist who scathed me because, “…. that’s poison,” it ,”could have killed me.” Not only is he wrong but their usual cancel on Homeopathy is since they have no background in nano physics, they declare the remedies are only water, no other properties and therefore snake oil. 1 drop of pure Water can’t kill…
He prescribed a bevy of drugs that left me sitting on the floor in a corner weeping all day. The statin made my muscles hurt so bad. My local doc a former heart surgeon changed the brand and slightly increased the dosage. I threw the remainder in the trash and got on with living. I chased that cardiologist for my stress test or 4 months. His receptionist was, ” … embarrassed and so frustrated by his repeated no shows.” I didn’t care. It gave me more time to get in top shape. Finally, July or August, the stress test, 2 nurse technicians set the base line; tread mill then on the echocardiogram table, twice. The Cardiologist was nearly 2 hours late. So, he says what’s the damage ? In hushed voices , small room, the nurses asked why I was there because I had no heart muscle damage. He loudly scoffed, ” Well watch me and I’ll show you why I get paid the big bucks.” Three more times on the tread mill and back on table. The last time, max speed, see how long I could last. After 20 min he ended the test, said he was flabbergasted and showed me the screen where he thought he could see an almost indistinguishable faint stutter, but not sure… He never rebooked me for any promised follow ups. With his blessing I was at Kedge Park with my mountain bike sunup nxt morning.
The doc at Digby who triaged me and the Internist at Yarmouth Regional spoke with Kentville Cardiologist, doc Whiteman, VRH, who told them I had a history of alcoholism, oppositional personality, had significant heart muscle damage from the 03 08 MI, an anomaly that prevented proper blood pumping,, that I resisted coming in for his stress test and was a no show at all scheduled follow up appointments. WHY ??? jealousy at the city docs, affronted by the success of Homeopathy ? I was always pleasant with him but firmly steering my own ship.
So, I’m literally ROYALLY FUCKED for medical care going forward. To suggest that one doctor lied is viewed with a jaded eye. To point the finger at two ??? verdict, nutcase…
When I was an MI patient at QE 11, a nurse who offered to supply whatever painkiller was my choice, clearly cranked out on some substance, ” We call her Anita Banita,” her replacement said, after extracting a broken necked intravenous injectable valium bottle from the wound it caused in the side of my left calf, cleansing and bandaging the wound. ” Anita Banita,” she sang, ” You’ve done it again.” I reported it twice in writing to the CEO and showed the wound to a new internist at Valley Regional. She laughed and said ,
” Yeah it happens sometimes.” There was no intravenous line into my legs.. SO I guess that makes 3 and 4. Something tells me I should keep my mouth shut and go QUIETLY.
In this country at least it’s closed shop and any MD who doesn’t toe the ALLOPATHIC party line is swiftly defamed and defrocked, whether speaking out against another doc, or corporative interest, usually Big Pharma or Big Oil. There’s a pretty good chance now that docs who sexually abuse patients will be dealt with, particularly if they are of colour or have a weird foreign name. Last year the Premier of New Brunswick lied, falsely blaming a Corona Virus outbreak on a doc with a Latino sounding name. He has advanced a suit against the Premier. He and his children subsequently had racist hate graffiti scrawled on their home and car, death threats, his daughter was harshly bullied at school.
I was involved in pushing for a referral of a white doctor who, 2 days before Xmas that year, sent a terrified young mom off to see his oncology pal in Halifax for an , ” advanced pap screening,” after his examination, ” causes me concern;” like immediately after. Her sealed hand written letter of referral, he gave her to present, ( she opened it en route,) read, This is the nicest piece of pussy I’ve seen. Thought I’d share it with you. Merry Xmas.
He should’ve been put in town square stocks, charges named, shamed, and flogged; the bastard.
Well I certainly got wordy, as per me…
Oh, the white doc; he was spoken to, we were told, by the medical board, but decided it best, no one was hurt you know, to keep it under wraps, you know his career and family; you know, over reaction and all that. Same reaction when a student at Dalhousie School of Dentistry reported all of the senior male students for sex offences against women fellow students. Behind closed doors, ” they were admonished,” and protected, the victimized women after news reported long discussions with the Dean, saw the light, and publicly stated that they saw no merit in supporting criminal charges; the informing student, nearly top in his class, was disciplined, sanctioned, placed on Academic Probation and had to leave the Country to find work.
David, terrible news. Take care.
We had an Easter zoom meeting with my extended family, aunt, uncle, cousins and their families. It was nice; we haven’t gotten together in over a year because of covid.
Later on I connected with feelings because the song below. I’m into lot of old stuff, especially jazz, which is why I’m learning to
(continued from above). play the saxophone. Here’s the song which helped bring up feelings, about losing my mother, which still is the main thing which comes up, but it’s continually going deeper and becoming clearer what it did to me.
Oh shit, that song reduces me snot and tears, especially Vera Lynn’s recording. It used to be mostly about lyrics for me. I’m a song writer. A few years back I started to listen to songs sung in foreign languages so I only had the music to influence me. It really worked. The music really has it’s own stand alone ability to evoke emotion. Which Sax are you learning ?
I am so, so, sorry Phil that your mom died. I really and truly am. So amazing that you know how much you love her.
Dave
David, I’m learning alto sax. I’m two years with it, taking a private lesson once a week, which is helping me along. It’s a lot of fun. I’m also learning to read music. I’m certainly getting an appreciation for what it takes to be a musician. It would be great if you’d share some of your songs with us. I’d love to hear them, if that’s possible.
Phil
I admire your decision; a challenging instrument, so soulful. I don’t have the technology to post music. I bought a digital multitrack but lost the confidence or motivation to learn how to use it. Cassette and reel to reel were so accessible… old guy resistance…(:
I’ll check out the Vera Lynn version of that song. I also like how Billie Holiday expressed it, singing all the verses with less instruments. The wistful nature of the words and music it what seems to move me.
Phil
Yes, Billy’s is gut wrenching. I have it on CD. One o my grandkids decided to decorate it for me. Never played well after… The CD the granddaughter’s fine…(:
Amy Winehouse released a destroying version. So much old soul in that above amazing young talent; old pain… I saved it from Youtube but lost access when her management took it down. Hopefully there’ll be a later release. She and Tony Bennett were scheduled to record it in duet; sadly she of course died. Tony spoke of suffering with guilt not making time hen he was in London to see her to discuss her view of the album. Like survivor’s remorse. I cried, for her, for me, for all of us when she had to kill herself, the pain.
Thinking my daughter, such a beautiful gift, deprived of life. 40 years ago come June 27th. I miss her so much
Phil, And even when you do have evidence to the contrary….. G.
Gretchen,
I guess you’re referring to my having evidence about my father, which didn’t bother me, and I didn’t think was important. That’s true. With your help I’ve had some big feelings about it, and am seeing it’s significance. Nothing else has been uncovered, however, I’m not denying that it could, but I probably still have resistance. I think I’ll write about it here, maybe that will help.
Phil
Yesterday you wrote: “I tend to take people (such as Renee) at face value unless I have real evidence to the contrary.”
Guru,
yes, I’m glad you noticed that.
Phil, you do know why I pointed that out to you? Just checking…
Guru,
I know what I wrote, but you’ll have to spell out your point, as I don’t know what it is.
Re-read Gretchen’s comment and then your words I quoted. I believe Gretchen is chiding you for what she perceives as your being overprotective of Renee.
Guru, I got that, and was going beyond as far as my possible overprotective tendencies, looking for extra credit.
David,
that is an amazing story. Doctors are wrong more times than they care to admit. Many of them, their egos are inflated to the point they think they know it all.
Phil
Yeah, Phil; I got a big eye opening education in that during my SW internship at the NS Hospital. There were three ego secure, and competent psychiatrists out of the pack. Of course I have to think well of them because they highly approved of my skills. (:
Two were revealed to be sex offenders, 2 others were paranoid and sadistic. The nurses I worked with were great. On the Alcoholism Unit only myself and the program nurse were non alcoholic. All the others were drinking alcoholics; both of the Unit Psychiatrists and the MD suffered from blackouts.
Slept 12 hours. Woke thinking about my bull shit. I had my first drink of alcohol when I was 19. Not again until my wedding night; drunk on beer supplied by my sexual predator brother. But that’s a side track. In my mid 20’s I’d have 2 or 3 singles at dances so I could socialize. So, 3 or 4 times a year. When I gigged I never drank.
But we’d get invited to barbecues and I discovered heaven. BEEF, I love the taste of beef. Don’t eat it anymore but LOVE the taste of steak. So everyone would get drunk and go off doing the things drunken people do, leaving me with the food. FREE food, FREE stuff is love; cheap stuff, too, but lesser quality of LOVE. And I’d gorge, inebriated before I got to the food; pounds of barbecued meat, rare, seasoned LOVE. And no one knew I was a glutton. No punishment like I go for stealing food from my mother.
HUH ??? A while back a woman I grew up with told me how attracted she was to me when we were teens, said she was always fascinated by me, I seemed so mysterious, exotic, back then. My masks. I was a wallflower; had, ” friends,” but my guitar was my relationship. Going to go into my head so will stop.
Guru and Phil, Actually I was not saying that Phil was being overprotective. His comment about “ evidence” made me think about some recent discussions we have had about Phil’s dad and how evidence can be irrelevant in the face of denial. Since writing this I remembered something else however. When Covid first came up on the blog Phil mentioned something that was being reported in the news. Namely that Covid began with bats being eaten in China . As I recall Renee then said his comment was racist. I remember thinking uh oh those are “ fighting words” but you, Phil had little or no reaction to that accusation. It seems very similar to what happened with both your dad and your sister and of course the polar opposite of the way in which Vicki reacts. Gretch
Given what limited info your single liner provided, Phil’s use of the word ‘contrary’, and your apparent displeasure at Renee’s activity, I thought my analysis was logically sound at the time.
It’s hard to make myself have a reaction when I’m not feeling it.
These are some of the things from the past with my father, some of which didn’t cause me any reaction I could connect to until recently.
I slept in bed with him for maybe three years when I was about 8 to 11 years old. He would be naked in bed, because that was his habit.
That didn’t stop until my sister, who hadn’t been living with us, insisted when she found out. Then I moved to my own bedroom.. The truth is, I didn’t really get it at that time. I felt she was being excessively pushy and insistent on that.
One time he asked me to touch his penis, which I did, but I don’t remember more about that, or there being any other similar incidents. I really haven’t thought there was much to that, I thought it was a weird boding ritual, but I certainly wouldn’t ever have asked that of my kids.
Until I can remember more, I think nothing else like that happened. But I’m open to remembering more and changing my thinking.
From those same years I remember what I think of as a severe tickling incident, which infuriated me. He was “goosing” me, and I yelled at him to stop, as well swung to hit his arm, and then he did stop. I have had feelings in past years about this incident in my memory, but they didn’t go far.
Near the end of his life, when he was living with my sister, there was an incident which occurred at her house in Hawaii. One evening he stripped himself naked, and apparently asked her for sex; but, that didn’t happen. I don’t know where her husband was at that moment. I did think this was sick and pathetic, but I didn’t connect it with anything else. or even have a big reaction.
Since I started therapy in my early 20s, he’s always triggered me. I never wanted to spend much time around him. I felt sorry for him and wished his life could be better, but wouldn’t and couldn’t do anything about that myself.
The truth is, the main thing I’ve connected with about my father was he was useless and unhelpful for me. That has been changing, and I did have some big feelings which were different related to the above incidents. I think the problem was I didn’t have anyone else to go to.
Phil
It looks like I’m going to have to go to my car during lunch.
that tokguts phil
David, What a horrible experience . You must have been very frightened, I would have been! Do take care of yourself ! Gretchen
I am really scared, Gretchen. Not of death. The end is here and I never lived. My babies. I love them so much. Having face and body numbness, tight, heaviness, disconnection. Can’t sleep. My brain is on continuous replay. Creied myself to sleep. Woke and the insight was right there the fear my mom was going to kill herself i always went home at recess to check. It feels that way like that fear and have to get away response when things are beyond my control is about that. It’s not fair
David, that’s terrible, with your mother like that, I don’t know how you survived.
It was a game of manipulation. I pulled her from the mud flats many times saying she was going to drown herself because I was a bad boy and didn’t love her. It has affected my intimate relationships, probably all relationships. made me prey.
Guru, It was logically sound. I just realized I should clarify. Gretch
I miss my dad so bad. A sweetly innocent, mustachioed, mathematically ingenious teddy bear. Everything is so much more bleak, degraded, and grim without our regular hugs and conversations for over two years now. I’m just wanting to drop off this brief post saying I still think about him every day. He was an endless font of innocently intellectual sweetness and gooey goodness. A slightly paunchy Charlie Brown style of innocence. He was utterly humble to a unnecessarily self-deprecating fault, never flaunting his insane talents until survival depended on them..
Waitresses at restaurants/buffets come up to him: “Want to refill your coffee cup?”
“Just a splash”, dad would say.
Waitress pours into his cup
“Too much!”, dad would say.
He absolutely loved the Jason Bourne movie series. The main character pretty much defined dad’s brutally efficient adaptability to new and challenging life situations.
sounds like an amazing relationship, guru.
David, I don’t want to falsely portray that everything was 100% roses with my dad. It was not. My relationship with dad was pretty crappy during my teens and early 20’s. I even got into a physical altercation with him once during that period. Over time, though, I grew to appreciate the extraordinary life pressures he dealt with as a completely involuntary single parent. By the time I was in my mid thirties I no longer really became upset with him at all even during the times he would yell at me when he was upset with me. By that time, I was pretty much sad for him that he wasn’t able to grow old with mom through something he was completely blameless for. That was the pervasive theme I operated under during the last 15-20 years of his life, and I tried to emotionally nourish him as much as I could in my own limited way knowing how preciously fleeting life is.
My dad did practice corporal punishment (spanking me with a belt) a few times as a kid. I could sense that such behavior ran against his overall genteel nature, and he was only doing it because antiquated child-rearing books and societal customs inferred that corporal punishment is OK when judiciously applied.
I’ve long ago forgiven him for absolutely everything knowing what I know now. There’s nothing to be ‘felt’ here. Far too amusingly quaint when there’s much bigger fish to fry with all the people being slaughtered on our roadways and our military-industrial overlords not giving a shit about it.
Guru, I think it is okay to forgive your dad, but it is okay to feel what it was like when you were hit, too, like a kid being punished would. Maybe some anger or hurt that someone who loved you and who you loved was hitting you. It is only natural to have those feelings, whatever they were. You are entitled, no matter how small they are compared to other seemingly bigger problems in the world that would affect one.
Sylvia, this is exactly where you and I seem to have had our differences in our beliefs on how we need to proceed in therapy. I happen to believe that absolutely everything flows from what a person is saying right now, right this very minute where the highest therapeutic skill being ‘running with what’s being said right now’ akin to an adaptive gear or cog. When I consider what you’re saying, everything seems valid on the surface,…yet it injects other peoples’ ideas of what they think should, bother me right this very moment.
The words being said now are king with all else flowing from them rather than injecting external, preconceived ideas of what should be taking place.
I have a hard time grasping the idea that I am ‘entitled’ to be that kid screaming over being spanked. All it currently brings is a brief chuckle and some sad concern over the stress poor dad must have had during those moments himself.
Consider that the human brain has 100 billion cells with 100 trillion connections between them. That alone convinces me that what is being said right in the current moment is of paramount importance with absolutely everything else in a therapeutic venture adapting to those currently uttered words. The staggering complexity of inner mind work demands supreme adaptability.
I will reread your post many times guru. I believe it’s huge truth, My right to feel what I feel, my right to say it out loud… thank you
That’s okay, Guru, at least it jogged your memory of those grade school fears of hearing other kids being “popped.’ That is a feeling, an old memory, too, and valuable. But I think the initial feeling you had when your dad hit you is probably there somewhere, and not that you should feel it, I just thought you were more clear about later feelings of when you were in your thirties of seeing the big picture and understanding what he had been thru and you forgave him of anything because on the whole he was a good father. If he were not a good father it would have compounded those beatings. So that it doesn’t bother you now is fine and good. I can tell you that the one time my dad hit my brother, he still remembers it, and the other brother too, just once. Maybe it was because he lost his temper, but it scared them. Good thing that it was only once. And my father was a good guy, also.
S
you have my deepest respect. I stood up to my mother once when she disrespected my wife. I somehow, ” forgot,” my father’s shortcomings and that he never wanted me until I as 40. I am ashamed that I confronted him in palliative care when he said he wished his favourite son was there. My brother lit out for Florida the day after dad was admitted. I was the only caregiver until the night he died holding my hand. Alone with me. I owed him that. I feel he was kind to me when I was a baby. Other times , too; he did nice things, built my 1st guitar and violin.
A friend who I want to be best friends phoned to tell me to call if I wanted or needed anything. We palled around together for years until he met his partner. In fairness, she has two young children. After disconnection I wailed I need a pal, I need you to be my pal.
Bombs
Are being dropped
In my conversations
Scapegoating bombs
Vindictive bombs
Retaliatory bombs
Bombs from the past
Exploding in the present
Blasting me back to the past again
And causing most onlookers and passersby
To flee the destruction
And carnage
Like a drone
Suddenly appearing overhead
It eyes its target
Then shoots its missiles
With bullseye precision
Resistance is futile
In the face of
Blind rage
History repeating itself
Trauma revealing itself
Over
And over
And over again
Renée, In your opinion and experience, what mechanisms in the individual make history repeat itself? How does it come about?
Daniel, I hope you can see the irony in your question, in light of our history repeating itself when we try and communicate with each other. How does this come about? And what are the mechanisms involved? These are good questions. Usually, I am a big proponent of experiential learning but in our dynamic this kind of learning has not been effective. That is why I think it is important that we take a break from communicating with each other and find other ways to answer these questions. To keep history from repeating itself yet again.
Renèe, My own hope is that you have understood my questions were referring not to our (you and I) history but to childhood interactions being repeated in the present, as in your poem. Namely, how is it that bullying experienced at, say, age ten, has evolved to become bullying experienced in the present, at an adult age. But I understand you don’t wish to discuss it with me. So be it.
Phil, I am so glad you felt ready to talk about some of this. Really brave ! Gretch
The elementary school system I grew up in had a corpulent principal who was a menacing figure to children. “If you go out of line, you will get two pops!”
What is a pop, you may ask?
The principal takes the child into his office and slams the child’s rear end with a giant wooden paddle.
Now THAT was traumatizing! I don’t remember what I did wrong one day, but I was the recipient of two of those ‘pops’ myself.
They were frequently handed out and you could hear the WHACK! reverberate throughout the school hallway and into our second-and third grade classrooms (seven to eight year-old children).
Very intimidating sound, slow and deliberate distant WHACK! for the misbehaving children.
The murmurs and chattering among the kids always grew to a standstill when those sounds were made. The principal’s threats were real. The kids crying as they returned to the classroom was also an unsettling sight.
It’s interesting how my ancestors’ property taxes paid for this style of administrative oversight.
So I think…well…my dad was not experienced in dishing out corporal punishment, There were only two or three instances where he tried it and it was foreign and unwieldy experience for him.
That school principal on the other hand was highly experienced with his wooden paddle. Likely hundreds of times, maybe thousands over many years. Those were PAINFUL!
Dad’s efforts didn’t seem nearly as threatening, almost laughable in comparison.
Guru, what you have been saying about your dad reminds me of the recent revelations I shared yesterday. My dad also spanked me at least one time, besides those other things I mentioned, but overall I thought he was an OK guy, just kind of unhelpful and useless. I thought my mother was the real issue, and I have had loads of big feelings about her over the years, which gave me lots of relief and progress, which seemed to confirm my views. I didn’t put together those incidents with my father, I just didn’t think any of it had much importance. That was why I wasn’t even talking about it. Now I learned I was very wrong, although I don’t know where it will all lead. Your father was probably much different, and it’s still very recent you lost him. It seems I’ve wanted to believe my father was OK, he’s mostly all I had, I guess was the reason. He certainly wasn’t all bad, I got something from him. Just some thoughts on what you said. Phil
fucking monsters
Hi David, You are right. It is not fair ! What a horrible thing to have gone through with your mom. I hope that coming here to the blog might help a little in supporting you through these very painful feelings. It really does sound very scary. Gretchen
Thank you. It’s good to have a safe place. Sometimes when feeling has exhausted me and I need to shut down it’s good to have a , ” community.” I am quite alone here; lack of common interests, common attitudes.
I am wondering if ROKU, my Free TV content provider, has an app that listens to me, or reads my mind.. HUMOR…. But out of the weird, Youtube pops up… I do not do self help searches, I have my thesis on that, PT but Anna Runckle, ” Crappy Childhood Fairy,”; childhood PTSD. I read the titles of her videos, and thinking,, “…yeah, that’s me, that’s me, that’s me…” Be clear not looking to her for advice but my assessment is, after watching one video on avoidance, she has to be a recovering victim, not preachy, stresses personal accountability, not a pro therapist, but decent, don’t think her interaction will hurt any of us neurotics.. My one concern is that anyone can sign up for her program.
One statement she made I thought was noteworthy: In the end the pain is the pain, is what’s important, not the cause, so concentrate on the pain instead of searching and searching and guessing.
After returning from the PI in April 86, it took me a year, I bet, to stop thinking, searching for those pictures of incidents and let the feelings do the reveals. Most of the time it’s just the feelings, no incident/picture memory. Sometimes I still feel like a spectator. But that’s ok. Most often that happens when I happen to think about a part of my life where I crawled through the shit already. Either way the feelings will track me down sometime.
What amazes me is how my unconscious mind is like a background program on my computer. It’s been churning away while I’m doing the here and now stuff and then there it is.
Every wave of numbness that washes over my face I’m terrified that my wonderful brain will be taken from me. Abuse recovery aside, at 75 I’ve already lost so much of the function of my wonderful body, the arms that once could bench press 400lb; at 70 was still able to pull handcarts with 1, 2, tons of grain, move 800lb bales of hay, straw effortlessly; the tree trunk quads that could toss around a 680lbfull stack on a Olympic Universal Gym, like they were pillows; the legs that carried me on 38 mile runs, propel my mountain bike like I was a young elite athlete
Jo, a picture of abandonment–worth a thousand words, a million tears and feelings. Very sad.
S
yes indeed Sylvia..thanks for your feedback,
My reaction is a horror of horrors sentence, Jo. Maybe you’ve written previously, but if you like, would you describe the experience in your words.
David
Yes, really horrible David.
I have described this a few times in the past. The picture took 5 minutes to express, a sort of deeper realisation after coming out of feeling more of the pain that morning. Unfortunately words when I’m in feelings tangle me up, hence the drawing.
oh god, yes; don’t let words interfere. a future time and only if you want.
Jo, that is a great picture, it expresses so much. That was a terrible thing they did sending you away to school.
Phil
Thanks Phil
beautiful day. the super-constipated b/w cat, who is a treasure, didn’t die during the night and ate some food this morning and purred for barb and scratched her nails and jumped to her favorite perch this morn. my son and his wife did not destroy each other over the weekend. barb had tooth pulled friday and is probably off the painkillers today. i was semi-nasty to barb this weekend but she was the one who wanted more cats and the hard work of taking care of them and getting them put-to-sleep seems to fall on me. but she is super-brilliant in her actions with vet and vet staff so i guess that equalizes out. the struggle will continue on this week. at least we can get takeout and walk into a store now. until the variants arise.
hi all,
i have read all the comments every day, but this week felt either too exhausted or too stressed out to write.
on Monday evening my central heating stopped working at 7 pm, while it had been snowing a bit that day and would freeze overnight.
I tried out all kind of tricks to make it function again, which occurred two hours later.
but of course it was distressing and worrying as the cold weather would continue.
I asked someone the next morning to put new batteries in the control device which measures room temperature and activates the heating system when necessary, to rule out the option the batteries were expiring.
that night the heating stopped once more, at 7, and stayed off for three hours in a row…
I managed to get hold of the company that had provided the heating system, and they promised to send someone by on Monday of the next week…
I went to bed finally when the heating system had started to work again, but could hardly sleep thinking of all options and solutions to keep myself and the cats warm if it would fail definitely until then…
I had also contacted the janitor and his assistants who are renovating the top floor of this house.
I got a call the company technician could come by unexpectedly that afternoon, to my relief.
he came, checked stuff out, went up to the workers on the top floor to look with them at the little chimney of the heater to adjust some stuff, and the janitor himself had to come as well to look at more possible causes of the problem.
so I ended up with the technician, one Russian assistant of the janitor, who comes from Uzbekistan, and a Moroccan trainee, all looking at the heating system and asking me stuff as if I might be the cause of the problem possibly.
they could not really find anything specific, and the technician reset and restarted the heater and they decided the bill would not be for me, as I did all I had to do as someone renting, like regularly having a control done of the system.
that same night the heating stopped again at 7 pm….
it really stressed me out so much, was wearing me down, triggering old feelings of unsafely etc….
I lay awake thinking of what to do, asking for a new visit of the technician, by the way, I had ;managed to make the heating system switch on again after three hours of the place getting colder and colder and increasing stress…
I asked someone of the former tango class, who is technically skillful and helps me out from time to time, to come by the next morning and to check out the control device once more, as maybe its settings had been messed up changing the batteries or something of the kind…
he came by, looked at it, and said the light was blinking indicating the batteries were bad…
he was surprised the one changing them, and all the guys coming in to fix the system, had not seen that blinking red light…
he changed the batteries, and that evening I anxiously waited what would happen…
it stayed on!!!
what frustrates me big time, is that I immediately thought of that option myself and asked someone to put in new batteries, told the technician and the others I had done so, and no one really paid attention enough to it to take a proper look at the little control device.
and if I had not asked someone to again look at it, the trouble would have continued endlessly causing more and more stress and frustrations.
so in a way I feel good about my own intuition and initiatives, but also frustrated about ‘experts’ and needing to be vigilant myself all the time, always and everywhere, many more stories there…
I was glad with the functioning heating, but had got a bit of a cold already, and had to go to the dentist and the next day do a shift on the volunteer helpline.
I managed to switch the shift for one next week, feeling too tired, but forced myself to go to the dentist anyway, which was good as the cold did not turn out to be that bad really.
I had also visited my mom, but now Saturday would be a day without any ‘must do’, and I looked forward to it.
but now I like being able to take it easy but at the same time get depressed by lack of company and interaction, feeling lonely and bored…
the weather still cold and wet, sigh…
hope to get vaccinated soon, and hope activities will start up again maybe in fall at least, this all is so depressing…
M
Hurray!
finally received my invitation to be vaccinated against Corona! just have to select two dates and times now, will do so tonight!
Feels so good I got it, they are finally speeding up here!
will feel so much safer, or at least less anxious, smiley!
Margaret
does anyone know anyone who has had the Moderna vaccination?
were there side effects?
here everyone I know has had the other vaccinations so I am curious about what to expect…
looked it up on the internet, a whole scale of possible effects for up to three days, hope I won’t have them, sounds very unpleasant if one has the bad luck to have all of them…
M
Margaret,
We got the Pfizer vaccine and only had sore shoulders. It’s seems that the Moderna vaccine may give more side effects, just from people I’ve talked to, which doesn’t mean much. I think those two vaccines are the best ones as far as protection.
Phil
Two friends, a couple, received theirs this week; he, Blood Type O, no problem; she, BT A+ has been sidelined with severe flulike symptoms. The Carona Virus 19 has Type A antigens so the vaccine will in essence cause an attack against BT A hosts who of course have A blood marker antigens; less severe reactions predicted for BT AB. The large multi country study, 100,000 +, also questioned the efficacy for Types BT A & AB.
I have A+ blood and have never been tested since all this started a year ago. much less a vaccine. I do wear a mask & glasses wherever I go, so maybe that helps.
You’re right about A+ blood type being more susceptible to severe symptoms.
Feeling OK so far, no issues. Almost like a non-event.
The two scientists I listened to involved in the 100,000 + multi-country patient study were surprised by the consistent finding that tobacco smokers had an easier recovery, no ICU admissions. They said that would not be publicly released to avoid inducing new smokers. An elderly MD told me decades ago that he believed his pipe saved him from the infectious diseases he dealt with. He said every breath he took during his work day was thought his pipe stem. Morticians used nicotine tablets, even in modern times, held to dissolve in their mouths during corpse preparation, which they believed protected them from any infectious risk including byproducts of decomposition.
Margaret, I had both Moderna shots — some soreness and chills after #1, but more effects after the 2nd: a chill, and several slight headaches (when I rarely get heaches otherwise), diarrhea, and overall tiredness and wanting to sleep all the time. Got the shots on Saturday, so I had Sunday to rest, but still needed to take 2 days off work. And I felt like some symptoms came back off and on for 2 weeks afterwards. People had told me they heard Moderna was worse than Pfizer, but at work, my coworkers all got Pfizer, and all of them had symptoms and took anywhere from a few hours to a day off. But they are all younger than I am. One gal my age had a fever and threw up after her first shot, but almost nothing after her 2nd. So it seems quite variable.
I took no painkillers, as they can interfere with the vaccine’s job. Mandie recommended not to, unless it got bad. But I didn’t feel I needed to go that far.
Hi Margaret – Just to add – my mom at 91 had her first vaccine over 3 weeks ago with Moderna and had no reaction except for a sore arm when she touched it. My sister had Astra Zenica and had flu like symptoms – fever, chills for 24 hours. It appears best to perhaps prepare for a reaction with food, water, cozy comforts etc. available and hope for no reaction.
Even with the reaction my sister said she feels it was a small price to pay for her now feeling fine, and having had her 1st vaccine. Barry & I have our 1st ones tmrrw and are encouraged by David’s blood type info as we are both type O!! 🙂
L
Turns out my sister has blood type A David! – ty for that.
thanks all for the feedback!
keeping it short, I feel a bit tired today, ha, a week before getting the first vaccination…
M
Vaccine Varieties News Summary for yesterday and today:
The Covid-19 vaccines were tested in tens of thousands of people, and the vaccines from Moderna, Pfizer/BioNTech, and Johnson & Johnson — were shown to be safe, with mild to moderate side effects. But now in the general population, rare problems — the one-in-a-million complications — start to emerge. In January, the CDC estimated that the rate of allergic reactions to the Pfizer/BioNTech Covid-19 vaccine was 11.1 per million vaccinations, while the rate was 2.5 per million for Moderna.
1. mRNA base: Both the Pfizer/BioNTech and the Moderna vaccine use mRNA as their means to deliver instructions to cells for making viral spike proteins. That mRNA is encased in a lipid nanoparticle, which may be what’s triggering the allergic reactions. While still investigating the connection, health officials modified the protocol to screen people with a history of severe allergies, and also added a 15-minute waiting period for recipients post-vaccination, since most allergic reactions arose in that time.
2. Adenovirus base: Both the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine are based on a modified adenovirus (common cold), which is engineered to deliver DNA instructions to cells for making the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2. Nearly 7 million people in the US have already received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. The AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine is still under review, although the US government has already purchased millions of doses. In March, because of concerns about blood clots, the European Union’s pharmaceutical regulator halted the AstraZeneca/Oxford vaccine before allowing distribution to resume. Regulators concluded the vaccine didn’t cause an increase in overall risk of blood clots.
Distribution of Johnson & Johnson’s single-dose Covid-19 vaccine was paused Tuesday 04/13/21, after six reported cases of cerebral venous sinus thrombosis (CVST), a condition that blocks blood from leaving the brain. In the general population, CVST occurs in about five out of a million people, with symptoms including headache, blurred vision, seizures, and a loss of control of the body. The complications were found in women between the ages of 18 and 48, and they arose between six and 13 days after receiving the Johnson & Johnson vaccine. Dr. Fauci said that for people who received the vaccine more than a month ago, they’re out of the woods. He also said the CDC and FDA were acting “out of an abundance of caution” and emphasized that their Tuesday decision was a “pause,” implying that it is meant to be temporary.
But patients with these clots also had thrombocytopenia, a condition where platelets in the blood drop to very low levels, leading to bleeding and bruising. The combination of blood clots and low platelets means that patients cannot receive conventional blood clot therapies like heparin, a blood thinner. That’s why health officials want to wait to resume the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, until they can investigate the concern and come up with new guidelines if necessary.
This is not to be an argument against these vaccines but thee companies have multiple US Federal Court convictions for a variety of public endangerment offences, including, ” medical larceny,” leading to fines of billions of dollars on each conviction.
https://www.pharmaceutical-technology.com/features/biggest-pharmaceutical-lawsuits/
I have followed these stats for a decade; also gov’t stats on, “Iatrogenesis,” physician caused illness and death, in Canada and the US. The Canadian numbers reflect an exact %age of the US by populations. The numbers are significant. When Cdn Medicare was adopted MD’s in our Western Provinces went on strike citing the same fear mongering employed in the USA. During that period the death rate plummeted, and temporarily sky rocketed and then levelled out to prestrike numbers when the docs finally returned to work.
During the SARS epidemic, then PM, Stephen Harper passed legislation exempting drug companies from liability arising from harm to recipients of health related drugs. Cdn governments retained the right to sue.
Pfizer has legal total control over the data it alone chooses to share with public and independent verification scientists. The info they choose to share is , generally, that their inhouse development and control studies determined the drug to be safe and efficacious. Note, Pfizer refused gov’t assistance in developing the COVID 19 drug. Rupert Murdoch owns controlling share in 2 Medical Journals.
Maybe you have seen the Trillion dollar STATIN cash windfall drug posters in your doc’s office, claiming the drug reduces heart attack and stroke by 36%. Here’s how they achieved that number:
1000 test subjects were employed. They start with a 60 – 90 day, ” pre-load,” period , where all participants are given the drug. During that period 1/3 dropped out due to drug reactions, The remaining two thirds were divided equally, 1/2 got the drug, the the facts, notother a placebo. At the end of the controlled trials the placebo group simply following the heart healthy diet had a 1.8 % drop in risk markers. The drug taking group had a 3% drop. The 1.2 % difference represents the 36% they falsely claim is the benefit. I’m not a denial nutter that believes Democrats and Liberals are Satanistic pedophiles, cannibalistic lizard people, who feast on babies, but the facts speak for themselves, and they declare that personal due diligence, and skepticism are both rational.
A close study of TB, Polio, Smallpox reveals the diseases had run their course before the vaccines rolled out. Experiments of trying out injecting live virus was disastrous, covered by claiming the live virus snuck in by error. But lab documentation showed it was deliberate, no malice, just a , “.. what if ?,” curiosity. Further it is scientific fact that vaccinated folks slough of virus that cause new waves of infection.
WE, pro choicers, were tagged conspiracy theorists when we raised the fact of the recreational murder of people of colour, by white citizens and law enforcement. When whites can murder non whites with impunity, free from fear of accountability, what else can it be called.
Derek Chauvin is being offered up as a sacrificial beast, but that’s all it is. The enormous population of whites that remain intelligence compromised still hate the non whites. IMHO, that false hope that,
” Change is a Comin’ “, salved with religious magical thinking, will only possibly happen when the browns are at par in population. And then what ? Will a better society happen, or just a change in the colour of the slave masters ? After all their intelligence has to be affected by the society they’ve survived.
I also have wondered about the role of Blood Type in Covid.
YES — I found one March 3, 2021 article about a study that said, “the new coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) is particularly attracted to the blood group A antigen found on respiratory cells.”
so it prefers to attach to the lungs of those with Blood Type A, but “had no preference for blood group A red blood cells, or other blood groups found on respiratory or red cells.” https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210303/why-blood-type-may-matter-for-covid-infection
NO — But I found another article from April 5, 2021, saying “a review of nearly 108,000 patients in a three-state health network has found no link at all between blood type and COVID risk.” “An early report from China suggested that blood type might influence COVID risk. Subsequent studies from Italy and Spain backed that up, researchers said in background notes. However, other studies out of Denmark and the United States offered mixed and conflicting results.”
https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210405/blood-type-doesnt-affect-your-covid-risk#1
So a definitive verdict may still be out.
Can I just post this without anyone bothering me with questions about how it has meaning to me? I have said in the recent past that I am completely burnt out on music, though I still listen to instrumentals here and there. Overall, this is a gigantic ten-album set with lots of good stuff in it.
Vocals often give lyrics strictly channeling the listener to moods and settings too tightly bound by someone’s linguistic mutterings. Instrumentals give the listener the freedom to float to wherever s/he wants with a much more forgiving backdrop.
aahhh how did that make you feel guru? Any spontaneous urgings to suckle your left big toe ??
right on, guru. maybe it is the same like you said, but i don’t have minutes to digest your brilliant statements because i have to get moving before the minutes-away, already-scorching summer heat stops me from all the outside chores of cleaning up this hovel-appearing home we live in. instrumentals give my low brain the key to take me back to prior years of hearing music, and most of the time the lyrics turn the knife that sounds have just stuck into my gut. as in ‘didn’t see the time passing by; crazy arms reach to hold someone new; ain’t it funny how time slips away’…ad nauseum–meaning i dont have time to relay all the many lyrics that get me every time that i hear them–but shoot, no time to write beautifully, as if i could even do so, so this is the best gibberish i can muster. i dont go group today’ taxes, yard and inside upkeep so we dont get kicked out; check all cat boxes to see if there are big turds and try to figure out whose turds they are, among the 3 inside-cats. i would saY THIS IS ‘FEELINGS-SCHMEELINGS’ BUT I PROBABLY DON’T HAVE THE RIGHTS TO THAT SONG. I TALK TO BARRY THIS WEEK. WTF, MY fingers hit caps-lock key all the time, to my dismay. numb fingers. blue jay squawking and other birds too, doing whatever the work they do, early every day. son remains in a bad state of anger, we were with him and his wife yesterday for the 2 grandkids first soccer practice in beautiful rolling hills estate park. kids go back to in-person school this week, so hopefully angry son gets time to fill out paperwork so he can go to therapist.;;;;;;;also not only music, but sights of grandkids kicking soccerball, talking to other kids, and learning shit and of course, their innocent beingness–that sets off feelings in me too. i liked one coach and did not like the jock one.
the reason my son is so angry? obviously me. and babs. today? new iphone for me so people can understand my words when i call them. but this is a real bill gates conspiracy. i want to text my son to keep it together? where is that on the f’ing iphone? should be the first thing you see. not hidden. such bullshit from those 2 hippie billionaires. or steve jobs. go f yourselfs. f’ing windows causes me grief every day when i work. what a f’ing joke i mutter loudly every day as i work from home. soon i take that garbage away from bobo and back to the hospital. ok f’ing 9 am and santana makes it too f’ing hot to work outside. i check out torrance at some point. much closer to grandkids and maybe less hot. carcinogen level probably as high as living next to the freeway as we do.
The Bee Gees’ song ‘I started a joke’, for some reason has power over me this morning.
Larry, this is one of my favorite Bee Gees songs! I find the words and melody to be so beautiful and moving. I hadn’t heard it in a while.
I never paid it much attention before, Renee. Now in my more senior years, I find it to be moving.
You’re a senior, Larry? Interesting. I don’t see you as a senior. I see you as a middle-aged person. Time can be a weird thing.
Maybe middle aged in my head. Thanks Renee.
Thanks for the jog, Larry. That and Janis Ian’s , “At Seventeen,” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMUz2TNMvL0 ,) both bring up sadness for me. Billy Vera’s , ” I’m a Believer,” particularly the director’s cut video, destroys me, sorrow, grief, holds up the mirror that I’m unwanted, unacceptable, in this world.
If I already posted this, well I’m a bit foggy. I spent easter weekend in a 6 X 10 windowless repurposed utility room, no beds available in ICU, or general wards with a coronary event. I was already aware that I have a congenital ventricular anomaly. and a narrow diameter left carotid My heart wasn’t pumping normally. I had a large patch of bloody eczema on my right temple. The internist was primarily concerned if I had a alcohol problem and had fallen. I also had fluid in my lungs. I don’t drink alcohol. Three days after I returned home my landlord visited to tell me they were taking advantage of the hot real estate market and selling their rental properties. He said he’d give me a good letter of recommendation. The proposed buyer plans to demolish this house and resell the water front property. Rentals, in the pandemic, are nil. So many out of Province city dwellers are moving here. I should be scared as hell but for now I’m numb.
David, that sounds very stressful, I hope a good alternative turns up for you. Phil
There’s no way to satisfy me , Phil; Periodically I wish I can leave this life; then the,” passport,” came and now I want to stay. hah… Yeah, i was pretty scared; I don’t want to be a neurological invalid. If I was 25 intstead of 75 I’d look at the surgical options. There’s endoscopic heart procedures now that don’t require the heart – lung machine. Both specialists concurr that someday I’ll sit down in my comfy chair and painlessly depart. I’ve had lots of, ” practice runs,” over the years, a few times wake up in my recliner 2 days later. my youngest memory of an event was at age 4. So strict plant based diet and try to help the carotid flow. It’s weirdwhen my heart is pumping more normally, it’s like the problem doesn’t exist. Yesterday I dragged my butt to the Poat Office, feeling horrible. 15 minutes later I jogged about 100 yards, effortlessly.
The events have brought up a lot of stuff. My inner voice keeps telling me that I need to love myself. I know that . But it’s tough. Easy to love others….
David, thanks for pointing out the Vera Lynn version of “I’ll Be Seeing You”. Listening to it tonight led to some big feelings. As I remembered, my mother seemed to emerge from her illness for a moment to see me. Just about the only positive memory of her I have. I needed a big hug from that mother. Phil
Oh, Phil, that poor baby… tragic…. How does anyone attach one name on those feelings ?
I sang that song and White Cliffs of Dover to my youngest Granddaughter an hour after her birth, Nov 11, 2000, while I rocked her. Had to smile and swallow the hurt , ” I’ll Be Seeing You,” brought up. I looked in her eyes and it was like I knew her from sometime before. Still brings up the feelings but don’t know why.
tomorrow morning first vaccination with Moderna…
glad it will finally take place, as I am feeling tired , all the worry and stress about avoiding possible contagion with the virus, the continuous background of extra fear.
i also became more aware of the deeper layers of fear about losing my mom, it is a present feeling of course, but with a big old layer of suddenly being without her at the age of two, dropped in some kind of institution for several weeks while she had to have some dangerous surgery, and dad had to work.
it is a desperate need for her…
yesterday I called her in the evening, my brother had visited her in the afternoon and went walking with her, in the woods and to the chickens , rabbits and alpacas of the nursing home.
so I chatted with her a bit before she went to bed, as I do every day, and suddenly she spontaneously said, out of the blue, but with great emphasis: I love you so very much! you know that don’t you?’
the way she said it made it even more touching than all the other times she did, and I replied I also love her very very much.
it is precious but also making me sad, thinking of at some point having to do without her, her being the one single source of deep and sincere love and affection for me.
all the more as another old feeling is I am unlikeable and nobody is interested in me…
writing this suddenly triggers a teary impulse…
it is such a lonely feeling, feeling I don’t deserve love and attention…
M
Margaret,
good luck with your vaccination tomorrow. That’s an interesting nursing home your mother is in, having rabbits, alpacas, and chickens. Are they for the kitchen? or for the residents to visit?
Phil
That brought up so much hurt margaret; feeling the need for my mom to look after me, or someone to look after me, seems to be her right now. what a stupid fool i’ve been looking after others, giving everything away; now nothing and no one for me. and it’s so fucked up I still believe I do it out of pure altruism, people, animals, fish, vegetation, save them all. How fucked up is that ? Can’t even see it’s just transactional, trying to indebt people, seduce friendship, insert myself and hang on, tell me to go away and i try harder until i get hurt then i go away…. so tired of it all, hurting and hurting, sticking that clown face over the misery i feel
Margaret,
good luck with your vaccination tomorrow. That’s an interesting nursing home your mother is in, having rabbits, alpacas, and chickens. Are they for the kitchen? or for the residents to visit?
Phil
Phil,
Yes, it is indeed a great nursing home.
they are not really commercial, profits go back into the system.
I sent you 3 brief videos , one from my mom with the rabbits, one with the chickens, every time with a very nice caretaker present, and one with someone bringing in the young alpacas into the cafetaria for the very first time, to get them used to it and to interact with and cheer up the resdents and at some point their visitors when they are allowed back in to the cafetaria.
those alpacas are gorgeous, kind and so soft, I have been able to get to know them a bit already out in the gardens.
it is nice if you could post the videos, I would also love it to show my mom in this way, she is so sweet and funny despite some dementia, and I am so very proud of her and love her dearly.
thought about attending group and showing a video there, but it felt too tricky, made me feel too vulnerable as people might not like it, I feared rejection and disinterest and it felt like this was too precious to struggle about.
so it would be so nice if you’d find a way to post them here.
Thanks for all your kind help, and feedback.
David, I relate to much of what you wrote, but I still get a good feeling out of caring about animals, the world and people.
maybe it is depending of the degree of it, and of course of the degree of need and despair.
hope you have some affectionate bonds that make you feel ok too…
m
Phil,
Yes, it is indeed a great nursing home.
they are not really commercial, profits go back into the system.
I sent you 3 brief videos , one from my mom with the rabbits, one with the chickens, every time with a very nice caretaker present, and one with someone bringing in the young alpacas into the cafeteria for the very first time, to get them used to it and to interact with and cheer up the residents and at some point their visitors when they are allowed back in to the cafeteria.
those alpacas are gorgeous, kind and so soft, I have been able to get to know them a bit already out in the gardens.
it is nice if you could post the videos, I would also love it to show my mom in this way, she is so sweet and funny despite some dementia, and I am so very proud of her and love her dearly.
thought about attending group and showing a video there, but it felt too tricky, made me feel too vulnerable as people might not like it, I feared rejection and disinterest and it felt like this was too precious to struggle about.
so it would be so nice if you’d find a way to post them here.
Thanks for all your kind help, and feedback.
David, I relate to much of what you wrote, but I still get a good feeling out of caring about animals, the world and people.
maybe it is depending of the degree of it, and of course of the degree of need and despair.
hope you have some affectionate bonds that make you feel ok too…
m
Me, too, Margaret. I’m just no longer sure how much of it is out of altruism, for me, and much is defenses. The reality is 99% of my cadre of, ” friendships,” consists of self centered folks who accepted my all loving, all giving, offering. It is what it is.
Margaret,
That is a very special nursing home. I tried just now and couldn’t upload your videos. WordPress says I would need a premium account. If I could get them onto Youtube, I guess that would work, but I can’t do that at the moment.
Phil
Phil,
I read you can’t paste the videos on the blog, so I sent you a picture of my mother holding one of the young rabbits. it is only five weeks old, but they get very big!
I wanted to send the videos to Gretchen as well, but don’t have her what’s ap. feel free to send them to her if you are able to, I know she would love to see them, wouldn’t you Gretchen?
glad you could see the videos Phil, aren’t they nice?
Margaret and beloved cats Pluche and Plukkie
Phil,
ha, the picture worked, thanks!
and no, the chickens probably lose some of their eggs, but recently there is also a rooster there so maybe the chicken family will soon grow…
the rabbits were originally from one of the newer residents of the protected ward mom is in, and he was allowed to keep some of them in the garden just outside his window, and the rest of them live happily as neighbors of the alpacas and chicken a bit further in the garden, which is also beautiful and big, the place once was a convent, but is now modern and very comfortable.
and yes, if you can solve it later on using youtube that would be fine too!
it feels nice to share some of the good stuff, as opposed to all the bad news all day on radio and tv…
love and care, for people and animals, is heartwarming to most of us, isn’t it?
m
Indeed, Margaret, it is heart-warming, and it is more ‘real’ now than just using my imagination images to see you and your mom together and with the cute bunny rabbit. Thank you for that. Alpacas live there too– wow.
Sylvia, I don’t think that’s Margaret in the picture with her mother. Maybe the rabbit caretaker?
Phil
lovely !
Sylvia,
it is my mom holding the rabbit, but the person next to her is not me but a very nice caretaker.
I sent some more pictures to Phil, maybe one of them will be with me on it, and maybe my mom too, and the caretaker holding the rabbit, on another day…
i think I look a lot like my mom, but well, looking younger hopefully, haha, M
A wonderful picture, nonetheless, Margaret. Thank you for showing it.
S
RE: my 2nd post on heart attack. I haven’t totally lost my marbles. On retiring I recalled the 1st posting and the appreciated responses.
My landlord had just visited me to say the real estate market is hot and they are selling their rental properties as a package. The proposed buyer will not be renting the waterfront properties. Rentals are enormously scarace as our rural properties are getting bought up by out of Province, and, out of country, urban buyers, unseen. Prices are nearing tripling thoe of a few year ago. My specialist’s TOP instruction, “… avoid all unnecesary stress,” is well intentioned….
Seems as though you’re in a terrible pickle, David. Given your recent heart attack, the high stress of moving, and the intransigence/greed of your landlord I can only think of two good immediate possibilities:
–Contact your local, provincial (you’re in Canada, right?), and/or federal housing authority and see if there are any emergency housing programs for medically fragile people. This doesn’t necessarily mean moving into government housing. They may have programs to help you transition elsewhere, even to another privatized housing spot. Do tell them of your medical situation and what problem you’re facing. My only concern here is they may put you on a waiting list which takes longer than your lease running out. You’ll have to explain to them you need expedited treatment since your landlord’s being greedy.
–If rents are tripling in your area, I would seriously consider going to a cheaper town (or maybe even a small village or hamlet). Now’s the time to do serious research into real estate listings and/or cheaper rentals in lower-cost towns. As long as you have the internet you can live in a Unabomber-style wood cabin in the deep forest if need be.
Yeah, I can see why you’re in a very stressful situation (I’m assuming you’re not rich enough to readily absorb triple rents for long periods).
How much time do you have left to do something here?
Thank you. All good thoughts. I actually wrote the paper that kicked off subsidized housing in NS, 1970. A few single occupant units were built, but mostly 3 – 4 BR single family units, duplex’s, and seniors multiple unit facilities. WE even provided for rent to own. Only the rural low service multiple unit buildings have vacancies currently. I put in an application today, If my balaclava and glock arrive before mandatory Covid masking strategy ends perhaps we can make a cash withdrawl at the bank….hah
The housing crisis spurred on by absentee investment buyers scooping up properties and skyrocketing prices are province wide, Country wide. I’m living in the outback. My housing costs now, for a 1 1/2 storey dulplex is really low. Thanks for the thought you put into your reply. David
God! The prospect of losing one’s home has to be near the top of the list of worst stressors.
“I wanna live before I die.”
What a concept.
“I want to live before I die.
Free the skies thunder inside my chest.
Now and again I wonder why.
Can I escape from under the weight of my regret”.
“Some Beast Will Find You by Name”
How about, “May I be alive when I die”.
More like:
–got laid with girlfriend
–too uncouth to explicitly say it on the blog
–instead must resort to cryptic references of ‘feeling alive, middle-aged as a senior’; with ‘beast finding his name’
:-). Are you pissed off with Larry or just lovingly giving him a hard time?
In happier news, “hangover severity declines with age”
Daniel, I have to say that certainly has not been my experience. Any hangovers I had during my early twenties were largely shaken off quickly, within 6-12 hours. If I had the same amount of alcohol today, decades later, it would take me upwards of 24-36 hours to fully recuperate from everything.
In all honesty, though, if someone gave me a small amount of opioids (assuming recreational use was legal) rather than a drink, I’d go for the former since the administration and elimination of such a drug is smoother and the overall experience is much more manageable. Alcohol is simply a weak substitute; it almost feels like a garbage opioid alternative.
It was Janov himself who said in the 1991 ‘New Primal Scream’ that Primalling is akin to taking naloxone. It was the first time I had ever heard of naloxone, and now the inhalant is a household word in the frontline defense against widespread opioid overdose deaths.
I remember WAY, WAY back in 2003 or so when dinosaurs still roamed the Earth, there was a catchy reality drama TV series called “American Casino” which centered around the everyday dramas of staff members at Green Valley Ranch casino in Las Vegas (I think???). One of the last episodes dealt with the death of the chief executive, Michael Tata, whose body was found in his bed near some fentanyl (I think in lollipop candy form).
Just as I was unfamiliar with naloxone until I read Janov mentioning it in 1994, that TV show first introduced me to how frighteningly powerful fentanyl was ten years later, even though most people had never heard of it.
Now almost twenty years later fentanyl’s comparatively ubiquitous.
former users, alcohol and opioids, tell me Naltrexone salvaged their lives when all other programs were ineffective. Low Dose Naltrexone, 1 – 5 mg quiets skin affectations, eczema, poriasis…
Guru, I too was surprised. I don’t hold my liquor as good as I used to when I was younger, and usually a glass of wine or so is about as much as I can take without paying some price in terms of hangover or, especially, a headache (although I did find Australian wines to be much less noxious that way). As for drink vs. opioid, drink has other functions as well, doesn’t it? It’s both social and oral, with much nicer and more delicate paraphernalia to boot, and so has the potential to satisfy one on more levels than opioids do.
Daniel, your question about alcohol vs. opioids is very tricky to answer because the two drugs are on a wildly different legal footing, with any social acceptability and/or ramifications being at least a partial outgrowth of that.
There was once a time when the massive department store chain Sears sold heroin over the counter to everyone:
https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/03/sears-roebuck-bayer-heroin/580441/
There’s little doubt that the line between ‘responsible use’ and dependence is much easier to broach with opioids as opposed to alcohol, though.
Ugg, I’m not sure about your assertion that it is easier to move from using responsibly (occasionally, socially, recreationally) to becoming dependent with opioids than with alcohol. I think it could be a little more complicated than that. But moving in the other direction, from dependence to using responsibly, might be easier with opioids than with alcohol. I tend to agree with this perspective:
Renee, your post compelled me to re-examine my earlier comment. I see now I should have said, “There’s little doubt that the line between ‘responsible use’ and dependence is much easier to broach with opioids as opposed to alcohol FOR ME, though.”
Classic commonplace projection in a hastily uttered statement on my part. It would be harder for me to be hooked on alcohol compared to opioids precisely because of the irreversible body damage alcohol abuse can do over time, which is also why I said to Daniel that alcohol is generally a ‘garbage opioid alternative’ for me.
Opioids have more appeal since there is just no awful hangover, nor loss of executive cognitive function while pain is being muted, nor substantial long-term body/brain damage (assuming overdoses are avoided).
I have no disagreements with the clip you posted.
Guru, I actually thought that the major, epidemic level, drug crisis in the US is driven mostly by prescription (legal) opioid drugs.
OK, well this conversation has implacably drawn me into a corner from which I cannot move out of:
–I first propose it’s easier for most people to become hooked on opioids compared to alcohol
–Renee says, “Maybe not true, check this video.”
–I say “OK, well maybe what I said was a projection and I was only unwittingly talking about myself.”
–Daniel implies, “Maybe your original statement really is correct given the news reports of the major drug crisis is driven by opioids?”
At this point it appears best for Renee and Daniel to tackle this area of contention among themselves while I step back momentarily.
Ugg, I don’t understand why you are feeling stuck in corner. Daniel and I are just presenting different perspectives of a complicated issue, for you to consider (or not). That’s all.
I started to sense another disagreement brewing between you and Daniel, this time regarding the addictive powers of alcohol vs. opioids. Since you and Daniel made a non-speaking pact with each other, it started to feel as though I was becoming a sort of proxy doll, or go-between, to help successfully foment the newest disagreement while keeping the non-direct speaking agreement intact. Strange instinctual feeling, I guess.
Guru, there’s no argument between you and either Renée or me. My own last comment was just to point the legal status of some drugs vs. alcohol. And I agree with you that alcohol may be uncouth compared with some opioids. For example, if memory serves Quaaludes gave me an alcohol like sensations without the accompanying sickness. We’re talking 40 years ago so…
I even fail at substance addiction/dependancy; bologna being the only ingestible med I would choose to quell the itch of fear. ( That’s the feeling that overwhelms me.) Overweight is the only possible social disgrace attached; arterial destruction the personal price if I chronically succumbed to the lure….. my ex is right, I’m bloody boring, no exotic turn to’s in my repertoire….
can we have some levity emoji’s added to the blog comments ?
David, I don’t have a levity emoji to offer, but do have a little quip from my county’s newspaper today from a liberal ninety-two yr old columnist who ends his observations with usually some corny old-time dark levity in these dark times:
A Mr. Rasmussen went to his doctor not feeling well and undertook several tests and was told to return in a few days. Upon his return the doc told him he had bad news: Mr, Rasmussen was told he had legionnaires disease, TB, leprosy and bubonic plague. Mr. Rasmussen asked, ‘Doctor, what do you recommend?’ ‘I think you should enter the hospital immediately, we have an isolated building here and have prepared a room for you plus a special diet of flounder and pancakes.’ Rasmussen asked, ‘why the special diet? will it help?’ ‘No,’ said the doctor, ‘but they are the only things we can think of in order to slide food under your door.’
Sorry, yes, they are groaning types of humor.
S
HAAAAHHHHH ! Wonderful…. thank you…..
Our son Owen wrote and sang this Tree Shanty for Earth Day – with his CEO pretending!!
Leslie, catchy song, nice vibrant voice, too, of your son’s. Good of the CEO to go along with the acting.
As President Linden Johnson’s, wife, Lady-Bird Johnson used to say, “To beautify America, plant a tree, a bush or a shrub.” Happy Earth Day….
S
Nice to hear Sylvia 🙂
Love the video Barry and Leslie ! 🙂
I just came across a first draft of one of my favorite Peter Paul and Mary songs. I can’t decide whether I like this version or the final version more. Take a listen…..
Renee, first draft, huh…very funny. Kyra is no Mary Travers but has her own appeal. I could never sing in front of anyone. Maybe because I cannot carry a tune, but mostly it is the emotion of singing a song is too much on display for me, and is painful.–too shy. Thanks for the rendition!
S
Sylvia, I’m glad you appreciated this first draft. But don’t be so quick to judge Kyra. Here is the final version. Take a look at Mary’s dress and facial expression, along with Peter and Paul’s hair, beards and suits. I think Jimmy and Kevin nailed them.
Yes, Renee, a good equally subdued imitation by Kyra, though it must be hard to seem sincere when singing funny lines. In Mary’s performance you can almost feel her reserve hiding a strength and a passion for the song, ready to cut loose, that we do see in their later shows.
I agree with your observations of both performances, Sylvia. I could be wrong, but my guess is that Peter, Paul and Mary did their song in one take, but Kyra, Jimmy and Kevin probably needed several takes to be able to sing the funny lines without one or more of them bursting out laughing.
I posted this, but don’t see it, so I’m trying again. The song I’ve linked is in a separate post.
Check out this version of “Salty Dog”, the Procol Harum song, by the Ed Palermo Big Band. I like it better than the original, and in addition I’ve seen the band live many times at a local club. They will be coming back in June; we saw them there last month, although they didn’t perform this song.
Yesterday I had a bad day, and should have gone to group, but just didn’t feel like it at the moment.
Maybe because nothing was happening, and my wife was off doing her own things. We haven’t been connecting so well.
The feeling continued this morning. This song helped me with feelings which were triggered, “We’re not going to make it”, I’m not going to make it”, about my father, he doesn’t do anything for us, besides being abusive, which doesn’t seem to be part of the feeling. It’s in the background. Maybe if he would do something good for himself, instead of letting things just fall apart. I have a lot of words to describe here which I don’t want to share.
It’s a desperate feeling, which I can have even when I seem to have a lot, so that has nothing to do with it. It just isn’t enough, at least at the moment I’m feeling it.
Phil
Adding to what I said about the feeling, it’s also “How long do I have to wait?, it seems like forever, I don’t have anyone.” “A Salty Dog” is about desperate sailors trying to reach land.
Some good news though. I saw a blue bird around my blue bird house this morning, which I put up last month. A house sparrow had been building a nest there, which I removed a week or two ago. But I decided I couldn’t keep removing their nest, as that felt mean. Those dam European invaders! But now it looks like I may have blue birds after all. I just read that I’m supposed to monitor the box, open it up and check on things. So, I’ll check it out tonight. The male discovers the box, and sings songs to attract the female, who will then build a nest, if everything is cool. At our house, the nest is empty, and the chicks are trying to fly, pretty successfully.
Phil
I’m correcting my last post. I saw a bluebird this morning at my bluebird house. That bluebird was a blue bird.
Phil,
that is nice news.
they sing a lovely song, don’t they, those bluebirds…
so did the former tenant manage to raise its young in time?
i wonder if some comments did disappear in virtual space, had difficulties connecting with Icloud today, finally after a few hours the connection restored itself and some mails were downloaded…
feel a big cold trying to install itself, lots of sneezing and some temperature nw and then.
had first shot of moderna on Wednesday, some side effects for two days but not too bad, could visit mom on Friday and do volunteer job on Saturday.
but now with the cold I canceled volunteering for today.
glad it does not seem to get much worse though, as it could be some late side effects, or a normal cold, or in the worst case scenario still some Corona I caught before the vaccine got to work properly…
but staying home and warm, eating well and resting seems to be working so far….
M
Margaret,
That’s great news you got your first covid vaccination shot. I hope you can fight off whatever bug you might be getting. I hope Europe starts getting covid under better control because we hope to go there this summer. As things stand, I wouldn’t be able to go, because I probably don’t have a good enough reason, but my wife could go visit her family. Her cousin had a lot of hassles getting in. She understood that a rapid antigen test for covid would be good enough, but it wasn’t.
I removed the sparrow’s nest one time, and decided I couldn’t keep doing that. I didn’t see them anymore and have been surprised because I didn’t think they would give up so easily. Tonight, I’m going to take a look inside, which I read on the internet, is what I should do once a week.
Phil
‘Sparrows singing in the dead of night
Take these broken wings and learn to fly’
‘Cept they can’t ‘cos Phil tossed their nest ‘cos he’s a colorist and only likes blue!!!
Barry M
HAAAAAAAAAA!!! huma… finally…huma… Are you, who we referred to as, ” 1986 Little Barry,” of the PI, to differentiate between he and the Notorious Dr. Barry B ?? Shows how small town I am; there’s probably 3 or 4 Barry’s in the world…
Barry, I took a look and there’s a nest in there, which I assume the bluebirds made, as they’re hanging out there. Thanks for writing a poem about my efforts. I’m thinking of joining the Bluebird Society of New York (the proud birds), it’s only $10 a year which goes to supporting superior (blue) birds.
Phil
http://nysbs.org/
No, it was a sparrow nest, I’ve had to evict them, unfortunately.
No, but I’m a Canuck, and I recently had a heart attack, too. 🙂
Barry M
Barry, I didn’t know you had a heart attack, when was that? That must have been scary.
(Big) Phil
Barry, terrible news. I thought an ownership of a 1989 Jaguar XJ6 would be a good prophylactic measure against all illnesses.
You would think so wouldn’t you. Turns out there must have been a hole. I gotta stop reusing them!
HAAAAH !!!
Hey, fellow Canucker. I have unshakeable conviction that Homeopathy is valid. I am biased though, having a DipHom tacked onto a ND (t), but personal experience is what solidified my conviction. Stephen Hawking said the explanation as to why Homaeopathy works lies within nanophysics not chemistry. Arnica Montana, 1000ch, saved my heart muscle from damage. It prevents and breaks up blood clotting.The ICU diagnosis placed damage at around 40%; the Cardiac Echo Stress Test, ( repeated 5 X’s,) reduced that to negligible with the Cardiologist shaking his head in disbelief: ” Spontaneous healing is unknown, impossible,” he said. ” I’ll have to look closer at the Troponins lab work.” I’m a bit concerned the MI may have been accompanied by a slight stroke. Hoping for an early MRI.
Hi David.
You’re saying 1000ch Arnica Montana actually repaired your damaged heart? Impressive claim to say the least. I didn’t think that a ‘broken heart’ could actually be fixed. And for a mere $12.95/bottle from Amazon !! Definitely worth further research.
Aren’t stress tests fun! I had to do mine with a Covid mask on. Tough to breathe, let me tell you! I have another round of tests in early June. Good luck with your MRI.
Barry M
On Amazon you say.. ?? Not my medical supply source….HA ! I first discovered Homaeopathy in 1977 after my youngest daughter was born, diagnosed with, ” transposition of the Great Vessels. We were told she would be , ” globally retarded,” if she survived infancy. Surgery to band the Pulmonary Artery took place when she was 3 months old. She, developed normally into a brilliant child; read at 3, skied, skated, attended Sock Hops at her sister’s school; all within her level of ,” puff; ” learned piano. Her small size, I believe, made her a magnet for attention. The cardiac team thought we were dillusional. she was compliant during regular hospital visits, love to ride on my shoulders, and quietly listened to doctors discuss her and asked us questions. When the cardiac surgeon met her the night before her corrective surgery he was amazed by her, ” superior normalcy,” and angered by the notes in her file suggesting our reports over her 4 + years had to be inflated. That led him to change the surgery option from a new 25 % risk radical procedure to a safer one, 8 % risk. To put it in perspective he said if he performed a tonsillectomy on my at my age, then 35, the risk would be 13%. She died 3 days after her surgery. While imaging indicated her chambers were normal in size, it was flat imaging and her right atria was to shallow, the surgeon reported 5 months later. I could go into his likely misleading information in great detail but that would serve no purpose. I forgot about Homaeopathy from 1981 to 1989 when I met two docs with PHD’s in Medicine, a Board Certified Internist and his clinic partner just about to enter his residency in Neurosurgery when they discovered Homaeopathy and Traditional Chinese Medicine. I had been diagnosed with a rare blood cancer at the Victoria General Hospital, Halifax with no treatment protocol. I submitted, too sick to run away from what seemed like witchcraft, not only the medicines but the electronic diagnostics. These docs were also involved in research with NASA and the health issues, including blood cancers, experienced by returning astronauts.
The younger doc is a head and neck cancers specialist and writes individual treatment protocols for Oncologists around the world, except Nova Scotia where he is still considered to be a pariah for daring to affect curative medicine and for establishing an Alternative Medicine arm adjunct to the NS Medical Assoc’n.
A year later I was cancer free and have remained so. I began studying Homaeopathy and completed a DipHom, and later an ND, and Diplomas in TCM and Healing Touch. A limited practice was my diversion, my fun, my source of awe, not a income earner. Outcomes I saw with Homaeopathy, humans, large farm animals, dogs, was sometimes mind blowing and changed my beliefs in the same way as PT.
Nothing , however, has cured my loquatiouness.
But then again, should there be a cure. Loquaciousness Is a part of Nova Scotia culture, is it not? As long as you are eloquent in your loquaciousness, which you definitely are, then it is so very apt in your loquation!!
In all seriousness though David, as a father I cannot begin to imagine going through what you have in losing a child. How do you even begin to give a crap about anything else that occurs in your life? I refuse to even think about that possibility for either one of my sons.
Kudos to you for finding diversions that helped you survive, especially ones that you enjoy.
My experience with homeopathy is quite limited and naive. I do remember thinking ‘how can such a small pill actually do anything’?
Locute away my brother from another coast!
Barry M
I went through a lot of bravado when Rachael died, looked after everyone but me. In reality I was left on my own to heal. In October that year, having ballooned from 160 to 240 lb, I took up running, another loner pursuit.
Oddly though, I remember becoming totally fearless in dealing with systems, including governments. There was nothing worse that could be inflicted on me. Nothing to fear. It took another 20 years before the politicians silenced me. They snucked up on me and used one of my strengths, loyalty, also naiveté, to fell me. It’s all so convoluted, it sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid. A whole lot of sadness, anger, and tears later it became an academic history.
Only over the past few months, 20 years later, has the whole story become clear to me. A major player, a weakling, an incompetent administrative gov’t plant, I befriended, now living with my ex has began using the same tactics to try to injure my relationship with my stepson. Common sense tells me I have to let that go, too.
The family poverty and abuse turned my brothers into financially successful substance abusing jesus proselytizing users of friends predators of women toys and me a non theistic needing to selflessly save the world. didn’t feel special because I loved everyone and everything….
My ex said I was boring and that being loved by me didn’t feel special because I loved everyone and everything….
Fuck I wish someone had pointed that out to me 60 years ago…. huge grin emoji…
I don’t think it sounds like the ramblings of a paranoid, David. Maybe a cross between Tom Clancy and ’90 day Fiancee’ though. If Leslie felt that way about being loved by me, she’d probably be an ex too!
Barry M
ps. Save the world – you mean like a God would? 🙂
No I don’t believe there are any gods, not even, sniff, sniff, amazing me. (:
I naively thought change was possible; illuminate the issue and kazam those with the power to execute change would do so out of concen for their fellow beings. I downgraded that to personally trying to respect and love those I encountered and daily treating their destinies as though anything was possible. To do anything less was not an option.
David, it was heartbreaking to learn of the loss of your daughter.
Thank you. My kids and I were inseparable. It changes life forever. Closure is a myth; you just live with it and with time aren’t totally wrecked every day. My 2 surviving children were scarred. They and their friends were devoted to Rachael. I don’t mean to leave their mother out of the pain loss equation but it’s complicated.
Homeo Arnica, prevents clots/bruising from forming and assists the body in dissolving and clearing out clotting. Acute traumas are treated with High Potencies, Old traumas are treated in the beginning at least with low potencies. Sports Trainers know it’s value in topical application. That’s what heart muscle damage is, bruising, and unlike, say, a bicep muscle, does not clear out on it’s own.
At one time Homaeopathy was the dominant medical art in North America, as it remains in many developed Countries, for those who can afford to pay for medical treatment. There is a legally documented history on how drug manufacturers banded with Allopathic medicine to defame and seize the medical monopoly. That cartel also defamed surgeons likening them to devils. Early 1900’s, not the 1400’s. During the Spanish Flu, the fatalities in Homeopathic Hospitals was practically nil, while Allopathic Hospitals were reputed as a place to go to die. The same history is true in prenancy and delivery. High maternal and infant death incidence coincides with Allopathic medicine seizing control of those services. I think I still have copies of letters from Provincial Medical Assoc’ns to the National Body pointing out the income possibility that was being missed by not having legal control of maternal care. CBC host, and intellectual, Lister Sinclair devoted a week of , “IDEAS,” programming to that tragedy.
Just like Primal Therapy Homaeopathy, as well as Naturopathic Medicine, Osteopathy, Acupuncture, TCM, and Chiropractic is now classed as quackery. But belief in an Omnipotent an in the Sky, who loves you, but will order genocide against your People and burn you after he has you murdered in eternal hellfire if you annoy him, and that whole fairytale, is considered sane and valid, not by me, but by many.
There are no fortunes to be made if a lifetime of repeat visits and cocktails of expensive drugs is unnecessary. That is the threat of curative medicine. Kinda like if every car and appliance came with a prevention and self repair manual…
I have a congenital heart defect causing my pumper to periodically not pump properly. The surgeons aren’t sure how it can be corrected but were willing to try some ideas. Not while I still need it….
My body is donated to Health Sciences. I’d like to be a spirit in the corner…. HA
This is what I hate about these WordPress blogs. I feel as though I have some important things to talk about, but obviously discussing one’s own heart attack would be more important and it leaves my semi-important topic an unnecessary distraction. VBulletin forum threads help to segregate things better so it doesn’t give off the appearance that I am a totally self-absorbed clod trying to push out a heart attack discussion.
Your discussions are important, too, at least as much as bluebird nests. Sally forth, oh star-superman.
It’s really difficult to discuss..because of the shame involved in having done something most people would consider ‘stupid’ and I wouldn’t blame them. Rationally what I did was insane.
During my many years of being around dad, one of the biggest things we bonded on was gambling. Dad was a pro at it, always going for the mathematical edges while I was the more degenerate, not caring as much as to whether I had the advantage.
During the months dad was sick and after he died…all throughout 2019, I was completely shattered with grief and disbelief. Completely destroyed that everything was over, that such a terrific man who didn’t deserve death or suffering did suffer and die. It was the first time I ever watched someone dying, never mind my only first-order relative in the world.
During 2019 I couldn’t handle things very well and came the closest to what one would call a ‘pathological’ gambler trying to escape the agony.
My losses mounted to about $25,000 that year. Like most people, this would quickly ruin me if the pace continued,
Then things slowed down in 2020 as I had a better grip on the situation.
COVID actually helped me a lot here, forcing the casinos to close for months.
2020 was about an $8,000 losing year.
Up until this month of April I had done a good job avoiding losses altogether, forgetting about casinos when a postcard came in the mail, “We miss you Guru. Here’s $140. Come see us.”
Extremely aggressive marketing. If I throw the postcard away, it would be akin to throwing $140 away. What rational human would do that? Would you throw $100 bills in the trash?
If also knew that if I simply cashed out my $140 without giving them gambling ‘action’ the casino would close my card and send nothing forevermore. No meals, no hotels, etc.
“OK, I thought. I’ll take $1,000 and quickly rack up some rated play and go home, forgetting this.:
Nope…that $1,000 disappeared also.
I soon realized the postcard was widely sent out during the month everyones’ $1,400 stimulus checks came out as well. Very cynical fishing expedition since this special offer never sent during the months the stimulus check did NOT come out..
Long story short. over the years my gambling has tapered off towards zero compared to 2018-2019.
I still have slip-ups occasionally such as what happened this month.
I had ZERO interest in going until that stupid postcard came in the mail. “Don’t throw away this $140”.
I don’t think it would have been realistic for me to quit cold turkey. I’ve done a good job tapering it all off over time, though.
I can only imagine what a hellhole and dark abyss pathological gambling must be for those who steal $100,000 to $1 million or more from their employers, desperately trying to win it back only to be caught eventually, serve prison time and work super hard at restitution payments over decades’ time bit by bit from some menial crappy job no one else will do because no one trusts you not to steal anymore.
Those stories are commonplace.
Pure hell on Earth.
So, what will you do with the next post card inviting you to the casino with free money again?
I don’t know yet. Likely it will be many months before anything ‘worthwhile’ shows up in the mail, anyway, which makes it easy for me to forget about it in the meantime.
I said earlier the postcard was ‘stupid’ when I should have said how brilliant it was for hooking me in (and cynical given the timing of the postcard with the issuance of US stimulus checks).
So many devious snakes out there using their extraordinarily complex brains to scheme against the common folk.
Guru,
So, you’re doing better with it now, which is a good thing. It sounds like your father was the one who introduced you to gambling, as an outlet or entertainment. Not necessarily a good thing, with all the money you can lose. It’s understandable since it was something he enjoyed
Phil
Phil, dad was a serious pro at the activity and even collaborated with geographically far-flung teams in pursuit of a wide variety of situational opportunities. There’s a MUCH, MUCH more I could talk about here, but suffice it to say I was the ‘lackadaisical son’ who didn’t seriously pursue the professional side of it. All this doesn’t matter anymore and would only be fodder for tea time conversations given in great detail if lots of time and space became available.
But…yes, I just want to peel myself away from the dangerously ravenous clutches of the degenerate side of this activity before it was too late. It’s important for me to remember casinos WANT me to be a crazed addict and will use every psychological and/or marketing trick in their arsenal to turn me into one.. They need addicts to survive and thrive themselves. Also a lot more to talk about here as well, maybe another time.
Actually Phil I never during the whole episode felt fear. Not of dying, not of being incapacitated, nor of being a burden to my family. What I felt was a resignation of OK, what do I have to take on to fix this, how can I make this easier on everyone, what, I’ve lost almost 60 lbs., I play Pickleball for 2 hours six times a week, plus bike rides and walks with Leslie, I don’t drink alcohol and I still get a heart attack!!! What more do I have to do? I never had a fear of dying at all, just a ‘I’m still not good enough’ and I have to do more.’
The person who had it roughest was Leslie. She drove me to the hospital when I took my blood pressure after actually playing Pickle Ball and it was 210/140 (a little high) and then because of Covid had to leave me there. I was fortunate in that I had 2 stents inserted into my coronary arteries that night and then 3 more two days later. No open heart surgery and I was awake and watching the doctor insert the stents on screen the whole time. It was amazing to watch the blood start flowing again through the arteries after the stent balloons were inflated. And I must gloat over my American friends, being Canadian it was all free!! It may take a while for elective surgery here in Canada, but when the chips are down (so to speak) it’s tough to beat the Canadian health system. (‘Cept when it comes to vaccines – in Canada they have to be bilingual!)
Barry M
Barry, since when is our wonderful Canadian health care system free? We pay some pretty heavy taxes to get our “free” healthcare!
Renee, since when do you have to be pedantic about whether or not anything is actually free. I was merely being thankful that I was ‘fixed’, temporary or otherwise, and then not presented with a $50,000 bill.
Interesting that that is what stuck with you out of my whole post.
Barry M
You’re right, Barry, I’m sorry. I’m glad that you’re okay physically and that going to the hospital did not leave you with major financial debt. I think I was reacting to your saying that you, as a Canadian, were gloating over your American friends. That came across to me as insensitive, like boasting at the expense of others who are suffering. That said, sadly the Canadian healthcare is far from perfect, as you know. It doesn’t cover many things, including those suffering, like me, from pedantry. 😊
Renee, your first two sentences were great, if only you had stopped there. ‘But then you go and spoil it all by saying something’ obnoxious like I’m insensitive and and ‘boast at the expense of others who are suffering’.
First off you didn’t say anything about that in your first response which makes it seem like you are trying to justify what you wrote, and secondly, have you not known me for years, have we not attended a number of Retreats together? Have I ever shown an insensitivity to the suffering of others? i think not, and what’s more you know not.
You need to stop being an excrement mixer. It doesn’t become you, it’s not an attractive attribute and you’re better than that.
Barry M
Barry, I’m glad you liked my first two sentences. I’m sorry you did not like the rest. Sadly, along with pedantry, the Canadian health care system does not cover those who suffer from mixing excrement either. 😉
That’s it? That’s your response? Yeah, well, you could probably pick up something cheap over the counter for the latter, and maybe a self-introspective enhancer while you’re at it.
Barry M
This is great, Barry. Thanks for the tips. I have not heard of a “self-instrospective enhancer”. It sounds interesting. Will check it out.
Wow, deliberately and extravagantly obtuse as well !
Barry M
Nope, not obtuse, just taking care of myself.
Barry,
I guess it’s scary for me hearing about this, and shocking that’s it’s happened to you.
I hope you make a full recovery. We will be needing you on the primal pool volleyball court.
Phil
Thanks Phil.
I understand your reaction of being scared, and I even felt like a bit of an anomaly for not reacting that way, but it just wasn’t there. It was almost like I was watching the whole thing from a corner of the room and not being a part of it, just being interested in what was going on. Does that mean that in reality I was actually terrified and my finely tuned defenses kicked in and saved me from feeling it? Maybe, but it just doesn’t resonate with me.
I am fully(?) recovered now though and am back on the Pickleball court. Primal swimming pool, yes, volleyball, not so much!
Barry M
Maybe you are undergoing some unplanned existential review as a result of the heart attack, though, Barry? Anyway, I’m relieved and happy you are still with us. The me feels very sad who is living in the alternate universe in which you didn’t make it. I’m glad I’m not him.
Hi Larry.
An unplanned existential review eh? I have to admit, I don’t have one of those everyday. Who knows though? As Stevie used to sing, ‘Transcendental Meditation speaks of Inner Preservation’. So you may be right!
Anyway, I’m glad that you’re glad that I’m still here. Me too!
Barry M
How intense psychotherapy and a Bel-Air love nest led to John Lennon’s classic debut album
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/story/2021-04-26/john-lennon-plastic-ono-band-yoko-primal-scream-reissue
Isolation (Raw Studio Mix) – John Lennon
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/qo0hijdngo8-123
Plastic Ono Band – John Lennon
(short video about the whole box set)
https://www.latimes.com/entertainment-arts/music/cesbpmpcbcy-123
The other day while playing with the remote control I landed on the beginning of the film Shine, which I’ve seen before more than once, as I’m sure you have too. It’s the story of the rapid rise, mental collapse, and eventual return to love and music of David Helfgott, the genius Australian pianist, the son of a traumatic and overly stern and frightening father and a timid and helpless mother, whose miraculous talent took him to study in London causing his anguished and maddened father to first forbid the journey and then excommunicate him from the family.
What I noticed for the first time was that although David himself and all the people around him grow older over the 25 years or so the film covers, his mother and father never do. Unlike other characters, they look exactly the same at the end of the film as they did in its beginning. I thought it’s a clever cinematic trick that shows how parents may stay the same inside us human beings.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpEDSvaP_-8 Terminator 2: Judgment Day – It’s In Your Nature To Destroy Yourselves (HD)—wish i could let myself cry with this. seems so relevant to my own life. things feel dark at this point. my son who somehow got so f’d up by our white heat anger and inept parenting is now separated from his own kids and wife. stupid constipated cat we spent a fortune on to save, she got fixed up and it is almost impossible to determine if she is pooping or not. son’s wife needs the usual amount of money from us to pay their health insurance and is too exhausted to set up a checking account for us to transfer money into, so that angry son does not steal it. and i am paying for angry son’s therapy, which he calls his stressed wife and says he is going to quit anyways. he trashed their apartment before he left the state. i hope he stays gone for a while. he has lost his mind. this is the time of year, every year for the decades i have been married, that money goes beserk. this year is a spectacular beserk. how the f do you spell beserk. anyway i am not asking for charity, we have savings. but it is summer soon, barb’s paychecks as a teacher start going down, still have taxes to do. thank god for terminator movies. i realize i am destroying myself, whether in my mind or reality. just an old thang of mine. less pain if i destroy my self in advance.
ber·serk
https://twitter.com/PeopIeAreNot/status/1388766620512755714?s=20
Thankfully it’s a dummy. I reported to Youtube a video of a boat of child passengers the adult filmer propelled down an icy slope into a frozen lake that broke through the thin lake ice , shattered the hull spilling the children onto the ice and into the water. Youtube replied to me that it did not affront their codes.
I know there are people here who, like me, are inspired by the work of Brené Brown. Well, much to my excitement, she has a new book out that finally addresses the issue of race, which she had been critiqued for not speaking about. Her new book, which she co-edited with Tarana Burke, the founder of the #MeToo movement puts that critique to rest. The book is titled, “You are your best thing: Vulnerability, shame resilience, and the Black experience”. Here are the two of them being interviewed by Trevor Noah: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB5zyDkTUBc
First heard Brené Brown on a Ted Talk ; she introduced herself as 6’3″ and fat. She is impressive; for me, Tarana Burke even moreso. I am always ambivilant about the outcomes of intellectual actualization. I suspect Trump’s Maga terrorists are also a product of that process. Wayne Dyer with whom women, including his wife, were cool with his misogynistic phiandering while raising him to the status of selfless god, was an example , IMO, who successfully manipulated a public image using the face of beautific love.
Woke crying. Cried for my mother, the hell she survived that created the monster in her. First time I think. Cried for her and I and the wonderful life we would have had if she hadn’t been broken. The feelings dragged me into that old primitive place, snorting pig grunts, fetal posture, my arms and hands contorting. A short time I think. Laid there a long time. Turned on the radio. Leonard Cohen, ” There Ain’t No Cure for Love;” pain of having no one to love me. What is that hurt’s name? beyond sadness. A scene played, between 3 & 4, my mother on hands and knees, me riding her like a pony. She’s topless and I unfastened her bra fascinated by her breasts. She told me they were for feeding milk to babies. I asked if they fed me and she said yes. I touched them. She was so kind and reasonable. I thought that helped inform my understanding of knowing when a woman loved me, misinformation, love meant permission to access her body. Got up and walked to the river sat on a rock and cried until I couldn’t anymore. Smoked 2 cigarettes to stuff it all back down. Checked email. A friend read my FB poem I wrote, satire, about my rental being sold; homelessness a distinct possibility. Said I can move to her house, a lovely rural home and property, she is of financial means; a ,” forever,” home, half of all she has is mine she said.. I once dated her and broke it off because I thought she bordered on psychosis at times becoming enormousy controlling, having magical thinking.
I can’t accept her generosity. I’d be using her.
Barry M had answered my comment. Wrote back long answers. That got me out of feeling. Just empty now.
‘oh goodness’ says one of our vets. suki unable to poop still, and only one last thing to try, cisapride to stimulate colon muscles. if no poop in a few days…that is why i said no more frigging pets…kid the hun might be going to get psyche meds but he feels horribly sad already about having had to leave his kids and be away from them, and who knows if he will ever be allowed around them again. jesus h f’ing christ.
Sorry, Otto, your son is having such a trying time. I hope the medication can help him, and he can see his kids again.
I have been through ‘the-cat-not-pooping’ routine, too. Sometimes Miralax will help in the short term–1/4 to 1/2 tsp. a day (not recommended for more than a few days.) My cat takes 1 tsp (5 ml) of Lactulose Rx everyday so he can ‘go.’ He had an accident a couple yrs ago and paralyzed his colon. There is a whole support group on facebook called: “Cats with paralysis and mobility challenges.” Many cat owners there have cats with mega colon issues. There’s all kinds of advice on medications and help with such problems. Hope your kitty can go poop soon. Good luck.
S
I have used the Homeopathic remedies Aconite napellus and Gelsemium sempervirens, 30 ch for paralysis affecting bowel evacuation and no hind leg or tail movement, with great success.
Bryonia 30 or 60 ch and Nat Mur a Homeopathic tissue salt are effective for constipation. If emotional aspects are suspected Ignatia is most effective. Such extreme holding in is considered an emotional shock response comparable to preparing for death symptom. I found it effective with humans as well who were convinced they were dying especially after in patient medical treatments when there was no medical indication. Gelsemium is a follow up remedy to Ignatia if the patient, human or other animal is exhibiting excessive dryness, nose mouth, dryness of palms and or soles of feet, inhumans paricularly the front pads. A healing touch treatment for same is applying gentle firm pressure where the nose meets the upper lip. Bach Rescue Remedy is something I have at home and in my car, an emergency remedy for shock from injury or witnessing horror. It has revived unconscious animals I saw struck by vehicles, providing there is no significant bleed out or ruptured arteries.
There are 1000’s of remedies to respond to pinpoint significant symptoms, many of them with100’s of years proven efficacy. I recommend every pet parent have a copy of Dr. Pitcairn’s, DVD, PHDVM, Natural Pet Care. I took his course as an adjunct to my ND. He’s an amazing intellect, intelligence, and human spirit with massive practical experience.
Thank you for that information, David. I will have to look those things up. Ignatia may have helped after his accident, though I’m not certain how it happened that rainy evening; a car-swipe, a fall off the roof? for he was quite a miserable thing at the time. But now he struts about, tail reaching the floor with no feeling there. Refuses a diaper, so the incontinent bladder defies a clean rug. Vet wanted him put down, but cat is such a sweet guy full of personality and entitlement. He still climbs and plays tricks and jumps out to scare his brother and sister and wants in and out several times a day to go taunt the neighbor dogs. Cats–they can drive you nuts.
S
I’d start with the aconite followed 30 min later with gelsemium. Hylands brand works well for this application, and with children and elderly, because they dissolve under the tongue almost immediately in distilled or boiled and cooled pure spring water. 5 tabs of a remedy in 1 oz water, shake in a 1 oz pharmaceutical dropper bottle. If the cat will allow you squirt 2 mil onto or under tongue. It’s slightly sweet; or using a plastic spoon, ( never metal,) pour 1 tsp into a small amount of spring water. Repeat every 30 min if necessary. I’ve seen results almost immediately. Follow with Ignatia, a compatible remedy. One beauty of Homeopathy is that we’re usually treating historic injury. For example patients from the Eastern Seaboard, Europe and Australia always test positive for Syphilus, that is the miasm, the imprinted memory from infected ancestors. Current Symptoms can include those of arthritic conditions, sjogren’s syndrome, and a host of others Homeopathic treatment can stimulate corrective response.
Store remedies away from strong scents.
I recently saw the joke – If cats could text back – they wouldn’t
– and thought of you Sylvia and Margaret! 🙂
That made me laugh, Leslie. It’s so true because cats can be so independent. They can’t be bothered. =^–^=
S
Very cute cats in the pant legs. They do like to crawl into jackets sleeves, too, especially when you are wearing it.
Why you should have a snake:
https://phiban.files.wordpress.com/2021/05/download.jpg?resize=107%2C107
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpixfeeds.com%2Fimages%2Fpet-care%2Freptiles%2F640-177498506-beautiful-woman-handles-snake.jpg&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fpetponder.com%2Ftips-to-keep-worm-snake-as-pet&tbnid=YPc6WPcDr0YD6M&vet=12ahUKEwjM463wirXwAhXHwCkDHa7AA9YQMyhGegQIARBg..i&docid=u62psS_cIQ8dzM&w=640&h=511&q=why%20you%20should%20have%20a%20snake%20as%20a%20pet&ved=2ahUKEwjM463wirXwAhXHwCkDHa7AA9YQMyhGegQIARBg
PRIMAL INSIGHTS WITHOUT THE FEELING
A lot of my insights come to me without the feeling (although as I write this, I can feel that feeling wanting to burst forth). For example, my cats like me petting them. I can’t go into much detail about my history with pets. Anyway, I had a short (or long?) 10 months as a baby with my mom, before life dragged her slowly and painfully into the black. I say maybe long, because what is a baby’s life, except minute by minute. (I am at work right now so I am distracted as I write this).
If a baby is lucky, he can be doted on by mom and maybe other family. I think I was. I doubt my mom had to work, but who remembers such things. I remember the front door doorknob, as she or other people left the house. If I was in a primal mood, I could see that knob and cry. Cry about it 68 years later. Why, will it fix me? I’ve already destroyed so many beings during my long long life that always the image of gun to mouth flits into my consciousness. Actually, right now, I feel fairly decent. Tomorrow, who knows…the Turkish cat is still alive and yesterday had a massive poop. Maybe we finally got the right medicine to stimulate her intestine muscles. My kid the hun, whom we damaged beyond belief in his childhood, seems to be waking up a little and might be ready for psych meds. Anyway, my point was, I pet cats or I have the ability to, because my mom nurtured or cherished me for 10 months. After that, things got haywire. Maybe I was able to nurture our 2 sons for a little time when they were babies, and then things went haywire. Well this is the best I can do, got to work now.
Leslie,
this here cat has been sick all week last week, fever, sneezing, coughing, throat and nose, side effects of first shot, Corona mild or plain season cold? who knows, luckily I started being without fever just in time to not have to undergo a swiper test, could go with a safety quarantine which ended today.
went to mom for a brief visit, they were doing chair yoga given by some students, so I left her there, stood by the door as I could not go in, and then made a walk with her , had some juice in her room, and took her back to the community room just in time for tea and coffee.
she had started crying in my arms when I arrived, briefly, and brightened up right after. heartbreaking and endearing at the same time, and it is good she feels free to let her feelings out in my arms…
Otto, I love your comments….
I guess it is probably us cat lovers who can relate to the joy of a good (cat) poo….
one of my cats a few weeks ago had trouble producing his big poos, they seemed too ‘thin’, and in his case I think it was some hairball blocking the road momentarily…
but still a relief to find his big poos again, next to the more spaghetti-like of his slender brother…
I feel like being able to give my pets what they need as I relate to or project my own needs onto them, want them not to be scared or lost or lonely or unhappy….
M
Years ago I did have a pet snake. It had special needs, as it would only eat live food,
like goldfish. It wasn’t really so responsive or cuddly, but friendlier than a turtle my son had,
which I took care of. It would try to bite anyone picking it up. It wasn’t house broken or domesticated.
Phil
Phil, I think if you want a cuddly reptile you have to go for a gator like Wally.
A New Trick for an Old Dog
(long overdue……but better late than never)
I once had a dog
Who wouldn’t stop barking
No matter how many times
I told her firmly and sternly
“Stop!”
People told me:
“It’s a dog”
“Dogs bark”
“It’s just what dogs do”
They said
Nothing could be done
So I gave up hope
That my dog would
Stop barking
One day
Tired of the noise
And out of desperation
I wrote a poem
To my dog
And read it out loud to her
Using a soft and gentle voice
Guess what happened
My dog stopped barking!
Her eyes became teary
And her face changed
From angry
To scared, hurt and sad
And then
A while later
To calm and relaxed
I could not believe my ears and eyes
When my dog started barking again
A few days later
I wrote another poem to her
And read it out loud
Using a soft and gentle voice
Rather than a firm and stern voice
And I had the same result
I came to realize
That my dog
Was not simply
An annoying dog
Who couldn’t stop barking
She was a traumatized dog
So….
If your dog
Won’t stop barking
Try writing a poem
And reading it out loud
In a soft and gentle voice
You just might discover
That you CAN indeed
Teach an old dog
A new trick
After all!
Especially an old
And suffering dog
In need of
Some healing
Renee, I think cats are more relevant for this group.
Phil, I’m having trouble grasping ‘I think cats are more relevant for this group’. Didn’t you mention pet snakes, which are far more exotic and less commonly associated with cats than a dog would be?
I think dogs are equally represented here. It’s heart-breaking to lose them, as some have shared.
I miss my dog, too, David. He was 14 yrs, and he loved everyone. It’s been a few months gone and I still think about him every day.
S
Guru, I definitely think this blog is kind cat oriented. If Renee’s poem had been about a cat, people might have been more responsive. I didn’t notice much interest in snakes, for some reason.
Phil, you are being way too literal. This approach works equally as well for traumatized cats who can’t stop meowing, traumatized snakes who can’t stop hissing, and traumatized humans who can’t get out of fight-mode.
I once was interviewing for a prospective teacher for several kids the school system tossed out. One candidate requested being interviewed at home rather than the school where he taught part time. He was a short pot bellied rather odd man who seemed tough to pin down on his philosophy on teaching and kids. He greeted me at his home, pot belly pig in arms, and then was adamant on showing me his snake solarium and was delighted it was feeding day, gleefully tossing a live mouse into each enclosure. On the plus side I got to hold, or it held me, a silky medium sized python that did not try to crush me. I was relieved when he said he had already decided he was not the man for the job because he was too much a disciplinarian. It saved coward me from saying, ” You’re not the man for the job.” He was just plain creepy. Later he had his teaching license revoked from teaching one too many classes with his hand in his pants. I don’t know about anywhere else but it’s was as near to impossible to lose a job in teaching here as it is in policing.
Up to the age of 14 I frequently had a pocket full of garter snakes and green snakes. They were great fun dangled before a girl in class when the teachers back was turned. Even more fun when a small one
got accidentally dropped down the front of a blouse… aren’t little boys evil ??? And aren’t little girls just marvelous for feigning terror to make little boys feel so,…? , ” boyly” ? (:
I once adopted a rescue pup, a Pitbull Brittany Spaniel cross, MAX, who was a chewer. No humane deterrent worked. I had him tethered to me at night with a silk belt from an old robe. I woke to find he’d left the bed and was chewing the gooseown duvet. His spittle had glued the down to his muzzle making him look like an old TV Westerns actor Gabby Hayes. I had theurge to laugh but decided to substitute it with fake crying and a dialogue about how hurt I was and how good I was to him. He looked painful and never chewed anything but his food ever again. I would learn that he had the capacity to learn a huge receptive English vocabulary. He even laid quietly on the bed looking at picture books I read to my granddaughters. Superior human, me, never learned one word of dog. He raised, like a good momma, 4 abandoned feral kittens. His capacity for loving was touching. MAX lived 18 earth years. I miss him.
2 days of poop. a miracle. i was sure this cat was going to be put to sleep but the vets finally found the right drug to make her colon muscles or nerves work. cisipride. anyway, only a few days of this med under our belts, so we shall see. the kid might be headed in the right direction too, but he has much further to go to get better.
That’s great, Otto, that your son may be doing better with his decisions, and the kitty, too, with her health. Maybe your vet has told you that for cats, wet (canned) food is better than dry for colon problems; makes it easier to go. Good luck, Otto, hope all goes well.
S
Renee,
in order to get a bit more clarity , do you identify with the barking dog of the poem?
what is it that could help you in that case?
what could we do to help you?
maybe you also see others as barking dogs, it works both ways really.
point is what do you want to express for you, personally, in more direct words?
I am not good at poetry I must admit…
M
Margaret, I was just writing about an experience I had in my life and what I learned from it. That’s all. It’s not something I need help with but thanks for checking. If you or others find my poetry meaningful or interesting, that’s great. If not, that’s fine too.
It’s okay that you are not good at poetry, many people aren’t. I don’t consider myself good or bad at poetry. It’s just another way that I express myself that I find meaningful and creative because I get to use a different part of my brain. And who knows…..maybe I was a poet in my past life:) Do you have any creative outlets?
Renee,
Sorry, that reply of yours does not make any sense to me, I simply don’t believe you.
if you do, you must be in some kind of huge denial…
M
A superficiality clothed in some brooding sensitivity behind which there is a complete lack of understanding of facts and therefore an escape from them altogether. Any complexity is shunned for the safe, cuddly harbour of black and white certainties. America is becoming stupid under cover of short, limited and shallow coverage of international matters.
Trevor Noah is basically a left leaning comedian, although I think he does good points in this video, things to think about. I find his show entertaining.
Phil
Hey Daniel, I was curious to know…what’s your opinion on how aggressively a third temple should be pursued for construction on Jerusalem’s Temple Mount? Should the Dome of the Rock and the mosque nearby be razed for construction of a third temple since the first two Jewish temples were tragically destroyed on the Mount during ancient times?
The third temple movement seems to be going slowly more mainstream from the far right fringe among Israeli Jews, following in the footsteps of Rabbi Shlomo Goren, maybe?
My knowledge is quite rudimentary here.
I should mention why I said the third temple movement seems to be slowly growing more mainstream from the far right fringe. Conventionally Jews were strictly forbidden from going onto the Mount compound, but in recent years these rules have been notably relaxed with larger and larger groups of Jews allowed to visit…drawing closer to and more reminiscent of the time when Rabbi Goren led a protest prayer on the compound during an era (1960’s) when it was still considered a huge violation of Jewish law to even set foot on the Mount.
Interesting saga even though I know very little overall compared to deep scholars on the matter.
When will the Fascist Terrorism group, Israel, be held accountable sfor the Nazi like slaughter of Palestinians and theft of their homeland? It seems weightier a question than some old myths baed on ignorant superstition. I will badly reference Janov who expressed that religions, and laws, is just a replacement for intrinsic intelligence.Just watched a documentary featuring American born, New York Bronx, Jews who move into Palestinian homes while the owners are at work and refuse to leave. One Jewish man has done so for 13 years. His rationale for refusing to leave is, “… somene else will just steal it.” Palestinians have learned not to protest legally because that results in soldiers descending to assault and sometiimes murder the home owner. Another round of Candy Crush or Minecraft, waiter, please…
Good post Daaniel, but…” …Becoming ?” I think, ” Always was.” Having thought long and diligently I conclude that the only difference is it has turned it’s war mongering colonizing mentality inward, against it’s own citizenry and for the first time is not limited to colour. Insanity is the only policy of Trumper America. The insanity has always been there, now it’s popular. This is how I have always heard the USA described, colonizing, bigoted, racist, socially backward, violent. Trade agreements reduce costly invasions. The chief employer of our gov’t trained ex military personnel is the highly paid mercenary armies that defend the ongoing rape of natural resources in less powerful countries by our extraction companies. The leaders who cannot be bought off are defamed, replaced by our installed puppets, or murdered. And we the worker ants thank master for the slice of cake or the crumbs from his opulent table, depending on our ranking.
Every born into poverty or working class income, politician graduates a multimillionare. While the Pandemic inflicted fatal wounds on the working classes, the wealthy grew their portfolios. The gift of the latest iPhone medicates a lot of pain, ….. squirrel, squirrel….
When will the Fascist Terrorism group, Israel, be held accountable sfor the Nazi like slaughter of Palestinians and theft of their homeland? It seems weightier a question than some old myths baed on ignorant superstition. I will badly reference Janov who expressed that religions, and laws, is just a replacement for intrinsic intelligence.
Just watched a documentary featuring American born, New York Bronx, Jews who move into Palestinian homes while the owners are at work and refuse to leave. One Jewish man has done so for 13 years. His rationale for refusing to leave is, “… somene else will just steal it.” Palestinians have learned not to protest legally because that results in soldiers descending to assault and sometiimes murder the home owner. Another round of Candy Crush or Minecraft, waiter, please..
David, between your lines, only in a very subtle and suggestive way, I detect that Israel and the US are not, shall we say, your cup of tea.
Nor his bailiwick!
“baliwick ??” I carefully hold back all comment unless academically versed. That of course means going beyond being schooled by accepted myths. It requires following the works of biblical scholars including confirmed heathens.
This word bailiwick, I’m realizing, is just not my cup of tea.
tha dickens you say… was I that obvious ? (: Genocides, the overpowering bullies and their supporting factions raise extreme emotions in me, disdain for the oppressors and the complicit by silence and inaction as well as those who arm the cowardly destroyers, and, immense empathy for the victims. The fact that the Palestinian victimization is a modern and calculated,” civilized peoples,”atrocity, from the theft of their homeland by post WW11 Allied design and the constant military reinforcement by our Allied, so called democratic, developed, civilized, rule of law observant, Country governments of the imprisonment, abuse and murder of Palestinians, for me, amplifies the horrors of every genocide, ethnic cleansing. It seems even more monstrously absurd that it is perpetrated by an ethnic group that rightfully asks for our empathy for the horrors of the Holocaust.
The drunken Canadian Prime Minister John A MacDonald stated in Parliament and on the steps of Parliament that his preoccupation was to kill every ,” Indian,” in Canada. Between Canada and the USA 100 million were murdered.
In Colombia the Jesuits murdered millions who resisted conversion to Christianity, including babies. Draping red hot necklaces fashioned from ship’s anchor chain around the necks of staked, standing, women really took their fancy. As the chain melted through their bodies priests took detailed notes. All to the glory of their God and Jesus, they being his namesake…
It was not until Pope Leo X111 that the castration of boys to staff the Church boys choir was banned. That was 1902. And the practice continued, off the books, into the late 1930’s. Glory to god on high….
Michael Jackson was chemically castrated as a child by his father Joe Jackson, according to Michael’s former doctor, Dr. Conrad Murray.
As a species, our advancement towards achieving humanistic sensibility and conduct is minimal. Canines are unfairly defamed by
the idiom, ” Dog eat dog;” more aptly expressed as Human eat human. Being fueled by reality is a bitch.
If I got really motivated, I could likely express how I really feel. My impending mortality loosens my tongue even more.
David, we had a rather extensive Israel/Palestine debate here on the blog which you might want to look up. There I wrote what I had to say on the subject so I wouldn’t want to repeat it again. There were strong-worded anti-Israel statements similar to yours, made mostly by Patrick and Renee, with Jack adding some. I did my best to explain my own perspective which is critical of some Israeli policies but also vehemently opposed to the poorly-informed, malicious and hypocritical ideas that see Israel as a sinister, thieving entity (a description not unheard of for Jews throughout history) and therefore secretly or not so secretly actually want to do away with it, one way or another.
My thought is based on researched observable fact, not ethnic nor racial bias. Anyone who knows me will tell you I’m too pig headed to be influenced by other’s opinions and propaganda. Some of my early eucation was gifted me by 2 guys I worked with in LA, both Israeli Jews who were Palestinian sympathizers. Israel, not Jewish ethnicity, is the crux of TERRORIST label I agree is applicable. And the Israeli’s who support the Israeli Gov’t abuse of Palestinians are complicit. As we, the West, and European Allies were complicit in the horrors of the Holocaust. A Jewish sociology Prof who enriched my life was the target of constant filthy sexual vitrole by 51 of my 55 classmates. One student a Salvation Army Major questioned her suitability to be teaching in a Christian Country.
The most recent interviews I have been watching with Israeli Jews by a Jewish journalist expressed that they unequivocally deny that Palestinians have a right to exist on the soil which they believe, ” God,” gave to them. Another popular laughable myth is that one mornng they, the Jews, woke up and the Palestinians had all left Palestine during the night taking with them stolen Jewish possessions. Then they came back after the Israeli gov’t has built a modern Country and demanded Palestine back and that all Jews should leave. Like what rational brain would believe that crap.The myth called ,” God,” and the rest of the cast associated with gods myths, lays the right for majorities to imprison and slaughter with impunity, minorities. IsraeI does both. Gaza, the largest open air prison in the world. Some Israeli Interviewees were numb to the inhumane treatment of Palestinians; several said, well they live like animals so that’s all they deserve. They don’t belong here. We let them stay so it’s our rules. Some looked very pleased that Palestinians including small children were being murdered by Israel’s military machine. It’s like watching a Trump Maga Training camp, where the worst behaviour is rationalized and approved, the most apparent absurdities, the truth. It’s normal and acceptable for me to brutalize and rob you because I’ve got the gun and you’ve got a twig.
Canada’s Parliament, Liberals and Conservatives, yesterday voted down a motion to call upon Israel and Palestine to agree to a cease fire. Shit we don’t want to lose a good military arms customer. Ditto X 10,000 for the USA. Wouldn’t want to negatively impact the GDP nor the investment portfolios of the riche. Not to mention how the balance of unempowerment would be messed up if self government was allowed to develop across the Middle East. No puppet dictators to milk. Self determined Democracy was quickly extracted and interred with US support,in Egypt. The Taliban celebrating Allied Troops abandonment by bombing schools. Post WW11 Russians, and once recent US valued friend, the Syrian Kurds learned just how quickly the friendship ends when political and economic usefulness wanes.
Sinister ? Yes that is totally apt. Not for just Israel but also the power mongers who support the Palestinian genocide, and the countless other campaigns around the globe..
I suppose some other cover story would be found to justify resources theft, greed, contempt, and hate of the different other if irrational boogey men had long since been erased from our experience.
I am also aware of centuries old grievances. To tolerate and cultivate them is inexcusable.
I used to attend Karate Master Camp, at Green Lane, PA. The only behaviour problems that ever arose were from Israeli Jewish Karateka, Black Belts, for disrespecting not only American Karateka of Arab descent, Lebanon, Syria, Sudan, but their White and Japanese and American Jewish friends and associates. One year a Black man, a dentist, and his 11 year old son from Sierra Leone were terrorized by three members of the Mossad. Another year three Israeli Jewish Army, Black Belts, were reported by security for masterbating outside the windows of a, senior Black Belt, an Arab Jewish woman’s cottage while hurling filthy remarks at her for sharing a cottage with a Black woman from Brazil. When a White 7th Degree Black Belt Sensei tried to deescalate the situation they told him to shut up and in polite terms to go back to sodimizing his, 3rd generation American of Syrian ancestry, Senpei. To be fair there was, one year, a Karateka from Poland, a big guy, who taunted a, ” Small Person,” from Mexico. He was soon dressed down. And the Whites from New York were insufferable, but just cowardly condescending not violent.
There were dozens of non Israeli Jewish Karateka who interacted harmoniously.
In Karate if an equal kicks the crap out of you on the kumite floor you leave respectful of each other, no grudges. Equals….
Phil, I have no beef with the political leaning, be it right or left. Both are legitimate. And I also enjoy his comedy at times. My concern was with the shallowness, that’s all. It actually started quite good with an important point, namely that people pick a specific time when they begin to tell their story and so the teller of history can begin at whichever point he or she wants. This felt like a solid foundation and I was looking forward for some interesting take stemming from it. For example, he could have taken it to general topics such as what intellectual integrity is, to how difficult it is to disconnect from one’s politics, to how passionate people are about land and places, to how enduring such conflicts are, to the place or religion in people’s lives, to how easily it is to disregard other people’s feelings, to conceptions of compromise vs. victory or defeat, etc.
Or he could have taken it to the conflict itself, trying somehow to show some of the realities and complexities and ironies of the middle east.
But he didn’t. Instead he just found refuge in a caricature personal story which may make some people feel tingly all over with righteousness but teaches them nothing of substance about the issue at hand.
Guru, I’m vehemently opposed to any ludicrous and dangerous ideas such as doing anything to remove even a single brick of the Muslim structures on the temple mount.
I don’t mind if the relatively few people who care about building The Temple do it somewhere else in Israel providing it would not clash with Muslim holy sites.
By the way, during the 1980’s a group of extremists made plans to actually blow up some of the buildings on the temple mount. Luckily they got caught and went to jail.
To this day, most Rabbis prohibit any Jewish ascension to the temple mount. It is religiously forbidden. However, some ultra nationalists think otherwise.
Al-Aqsa mosque is considered the third holiest site in Islam, with Mecca and Medina being #1 and #2, respectively.
Yet….the Temple Mount is the holiest site in Judaism. If Muslims sacrificed a #3 site so worshippers of Judaism can have their ultimate #1 spot fulfilled with a third temple, Muslims would still have a #1 and #2 site to work with, wouldn’t they?
Based on my crude logic, it would seem to balance things out a bit more.
Under the old system:
Judaism – nothing
Islam – Possesses #1, #2, and #3 holiest sites (fully constructed)
Under the new system if Jewish worshippers reclaimed the mount:
Judaism – Possesses a #1 site now (fully constructed)
Islam = Still keeps #1 and #2 (fully constructed)
Wouldn’t this equalize things a bit more? I understand my analysis is likely crude, trite, and ignorant of tradition….but that’s what my logical mind sees at a cursory glance.
I would feel an extreme sense of inferiority being strictly forbidden to enter the temple mount while those of another religion can enter and leave as they please, especially given that the land was once under my religion’s control anyway.
If anyone takes offense at what I wrote above, do note I am only giving initial thoughts from the standpoint of an ignorant newcomer.
Guru, some Jews feel exactly that. However, the holy Muslim shrines on the temple mount have been there, more or less, continuously since the Muslim conquest of that land in the 7th century, and some 600 years after the Jewish temple at the spot was razed by the Romans. In ancient times it was customary for the victorious to destroy the main sources of identity and power of the vanquished, as did the Romans and then the Muslims on the temple mount. In modern times it is unacceptable and also unwise. Islam is now huge and has been around for centuries, and one wouldn’t want to pick up a fight with two billion Muslims.
The prohibition to enter the site is a religious one, and for secular security reasons Israeli authorities forbid any Jewish religious rituals there. People who try to pray there are immediately arrested. But anyone can visit, or at least used to be able to.
Daniel, yes I was going to mention the needed logistics of having three far-flung holy sites for Muslims based on its enormous population exceeding Jews by 100-1 ratio (2 billion as opposed to only 20 million). I refrained at the last moment since it seemed self-defeating to my earlier argument for a third temple.
I will say this has led me to appreciate a bit more why the Holocaust was such a gravely important matter. If the six million people lost each had an average of two children, and those two children each have two more…the implied losses add up to a staggering percentage of the current Jewish population (I’m guessing 18 million ‘today people’ lost since a large portion of the progeny would only have Jewish fathers and not count towards the total), so without the Holocaust the Jewish population would be effectively doubled today.
I’m also curious about the foundation stone under the Dome of the Rock. What sort of evidence lies underground on the mount of Solomon’s Temple? What archaeological evidence could there be? And imagine the frustration there for Jewish scholars not able to dig! In their shoes, I would be extremely worried at any surreptitious destruction of evidence by angry Muslims since it seems there’s still interesting evidence of the first temple on Arch of Titus, etc..
Guru, worldwide Jews today are about 15 million, about 1.5-2.0 million short of their pre-WWII numbers.
As for the temple mount, its Muslim authorities will not allow any professional archaeological excavations there. They have done some digging themselves apparently without much consideration to archaeological procedures. Anyhow, some claim that on the temple mount the ground is rather close to the bedrock so it isn’t like other places where you have stratified debris of several periods of time one on top of another. If this is true, whatever stood on the mount was razed on its current top and not much is underneath the ground. Most probably we will never know.
Instead, Israeli and others dug the grounds around the mount and discovered all sorts of findings, including Hebrew inscriptions in stone, the most important and telling of which is one declaring the Trumpeting Place which was a high corner at the temple from where they trumpeted to announce the beginning of the Sabbath. Presumably when the temple was destroyed by the Romans that piece of stone either fell or they threw it downhill. It was discovered in 1968. They also found very wide staircases leading up to the mount, but of course those don’t necessarily belong to the Jewish temple.
Daniel, thanks for showing the Trumpeting Place artifact, neat stuff!
I have a soft spot for archaeology and the freedom to study the ancient incarnations of religion, so all of what’s going on at Temple Mount hits many spots for me personally.
I mentioned the Arch of Titus earlier because there are supposedly some carvings showing the original sacking of the earliest temple (ie. a bearded guy hauling away a menorah).
I am largely in agreement with you on all things Israel-related, and I might even be a bit harder to the right-wing than yourself where old religious sites are concerned. The Palestinian question is a huge one that I would need to study further before formulating confident opinions.
A pro-Israeli Democrat is the best way to describe me, for the most part.
Some wealthy private US citizens, such as Sheldon Adelson (deceased), back Israeli causes with private funding yet also supported Trump, which of the latter I couldn’t find myself doing.
$26 million winning California lotto ticket destroyed in a washing machine. No recourse for winner.
https://ktla.com/news/local-news/clock-ticking-on-l-a-county-superlotto-plus-winners-last-day-to-claim-26-million-prize/
Stories like these help me feel a little better when I review some of the stupid mistakes I’ve made in life.
Since interest rates are ultra-low right now, the lotto winner above may have been able to snag a lump sum as high as $20 million from a competitively private third party rather than through the lotto itself, with perhaps $12 million won overall after federal and state taxes.
At $20 per hour (after tax!), $12 million represents 300 solid YEARS of full time, 40 hours per week labor. The entire course of working years from 18 to 60 years old for seven people consecutively, all washed away to an illegible, unredeemable pulp in a matter of minutes by an errant oversight.
well, i thought i was at the bottom of this blog but i read some stuff may8 whatever. good poem renee. sorry about your dog sylvia. i hardly think about mine anymore. just a habit i learned the hard way, too early. i don’t think much about them when they are here either. at least not my poor kids, who are not animals. think more about this cat with poop prob, who i will have to devote the rest of my life or hers checking everyday for poop in box and trying to feed and medicate her exactly, and failing every day, and being exhausted from it every day. with a laundry list a mile long and a job that is too much for an old man, and no possible way to retire. and yet what i was going to say, i love myself being alive today. no work today. extra sleep today. no work except the impossible laundry list. no seeing of grandkids and no time for that anyway. i will be dead soon enough. one step away from a stroke. asi es la vida. que sera sera. what will fucking be will be. kid in ohio didnt get pysch meds yet. his situation about ever seeing the grandkids ever again is impossible. his poor kids, who knows how they feel. asshole wife of kids has never liked us anyway, so we dont have much chance to help with that anyway. barb says be compassionate when i think of his wife but…i may be in group tomorrow but not 4 hours. i would like to see and hear others while i can. what the f is the moon in anyway. why i have inordinate need to express myself today. anyway…
I agree with you, Otto, que sera, sera, what will be, will be. And as the kids say nowadays–it is what it is.
I still think of my dog when someone comes unexpectedly and there is no bark. I think I have something similar to a phantom pain (that someone has when they lose a leg) from when he was sleeping beside me on the bed, because I still feel a bundle next to me and am careful not to awaken it when I have to get up in the middle of the night, only to look and there is nothing there.
I hope your grandkids will get to see their dad sometime and their Grandma and Pa, too.
S
huh i though stevie nicks was a taurus, but must be gemini. that destroys the miniscule knowledge that i had of astrology to bits. or maybe not. whatever. and the reason for wondering why i had the overwhelming need to say shit. i thought taurus was about the throat or voice. and she sure has a voice. a beautiful voice. so fick me and my thoughts and beliefs and theorie. not q-anon level at least.
I find it horrifying to see trauma repeating itself, yet again, in the Middle East. When a once powerless and brutalized people gain power it seems almost inevitable, sadly, that they will pass on the traumas done to them, while at the same time, continuing to see themselves as suffering victims, as they once were. It boggles my mind that the Israeli government, which gets BILLIONS of dollars every year for its military from the U.S. does not see the huge discrepancy in power that it has over the Palestinians. To me, this only makes sense when seen through the lens of historical trauma.
Brené Brown, in the interview I posted earlier, asked the question, “When you see blatant dehumanization, what story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with what’s happening?” One of the stories that gets told over and over again is that Hamas is to blame. And when this story gets repeated in enough times, it can become easy to see it as the truth. To understand how this story serves to justify the dehumanization occurring, check out this article: https://theintercept.com/2021/05/14/palestine-israel-hamas-netanyahu-biden/?utm_campaign=theintercept&utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&fbclid=IwAR2Qi8QNnxvf1kWl4kBAkQyTnRN6BTL4kRHGr_sT6MNphpsgJqXxFIP1yU0 …..“The Israeli and U.S. governments — indeed all Western governments — are promoting an insidious lie with a propaganda campaign to make Hamas the central issue of this bloodbath. The refrain, repeated over and over, that Israel has a right to self-defense, is intended to give Israel a shield of impunity and to justify its crimes against humanity. The U.S. position is that Israel has the right to self-defense, but the Palestinian people do not.” The once victims of a crime against humanity have become the perpetrators of a crime against humanity. It is heartbreaking.
Renee, I can only say I definitely see why the Israelis feel the need to be armed to the teeth even though I don’t like guns and never owned one. Being in a small group of 15 million Jews with 2 billion potentially hostile Muslims nearby would give many rational, self-preserving people the urge to heavily arm themselves. Even I would find this rational, though I would prefer guns didn’t exist to begin with.
It’s like being alone in a barricaded house with more than 100 people outside, many of whom are armed with clubs and knives wanting to kill me. Why wouldn’t I want a machine gun or some other higher-technology weapon in that situation?
Yes, I see where I placed 15 million worldwide Jews in a spot surrounded by 2 billion Muslims when Israel’s population is much lower and a significant portion of Muslims are indifferent to Israel’s existence, along with the Jordanian and Egyptian peace accords, etc. I was in the middle of falling asleep during my last post & my mind grew careless.
My point about needing to be bristling with weaponry when barricaded, outnumbered, and surrounded by a potentially hostile mob still stands, though.
For decades Israel has deliberately ignored and restrained themselves from responding to rocket attacks from both Hamas and even far flung SCUD attacks from Saddam Hussein in Iraq. Eventually, though, you must respond and not be a passive sitting duck forever.
This latest skirmish started when Hamas fired 36 rockets unprovoked into Israel last month.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel_in_2021
(2021 attacks, note how Israel stoically ignored the isolated rocket attacks from January)
It was only when dozens of rockets started flying into Israel that a response was taken time.
General reference of entire multi-year history of rocket attacks: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_rocket_attacks_on_Israel (general list of attacks)
I was first schooled on the Palestinian story by two Motion Pictures students in LA in 1987, both Israeli Jews. They were unequivocally supportive of the Palestinian version of this horror, after doing their own independent research, away from the propaganda. I included this in my list of areas to delve into while researching a, ” History of Human Violence, ” for Professor Dr Beatice Buzek who was developing a new psychology curriculum. Confining myself to the pure and documented evidence I can find no reason to dispute the current position of the United Nations, that Israel is guilty of War Crimes against the Palestinians. The West is also guilty for not including protecting German Jews from slaughter in the reasons for joining the war effort against Nazi Germany. Freeing those tortured people was a side efect of defeating the Nazi regime, not a focus. Thhat was about protecting the assets of white Europeans, WE were complicit. Besides providing fuels and vehicle parts We turned away shiploads of fleeing Jewish refugees; and, the post WW11 Anglo Christian attitude here was one of contempt for Jews. The great paradox, explained in part perhaps by your thoughts on trauma induced reaction where the suppressed become the oppressors, is that the descendents of a brutalized, systematically slaughtered, traumatized, People now approve of and participate in the contrived genocide of another People. In the dozens of recently conducted interviews I have watched, those Israeli Jews deny the rights of Palestinians, regardless of religion to the right to exist, that they tolerate their existence, and that Palestinians should be grateful they are permitted to remain on Jewish owned lands under any conditions they, the majority, dictate.
I apologize at being less than articulate. I am struggling since my early April heart / vascular incident and my keyboard is struggling since Microsoft’s last FuckUpdates.
I don’t want to go into the ignorant, baseless, and misleading article from the Intercept, nor do I want to repeat what I’ve written here on the blog over the past few years regarding this issue.
But I do want to ask my Canadian blog-mates: In case some militant Huron or Iroquois wanted their territory back, armed themselves with rockets and began launching them indiscriminately into present-day Toronto, what would the Canadian Government do? Let me guess: They would evacuate the city and promptly hand it over to the rocket-launching militants. After all, that is the right thing to do and criminal and murderous actions, when carried out by people with less power, are not only perfectly legitimate but desirable. Knowing that, the Canadians, committed to social justice, would most likely arrange for a huge exodus back to Europe.
And what is it the Hamas wants of Israel, Israelis and Jews in general? Never mind me, let’s ask them:
So, this is what they want of Jews, Israel and Israelis: They want them to evaporate, or, even better, to die. Now how about getting their national wishes for a homeland through diplomacy and negotiations?
I know that quoting from the Hamas charter is redundant to David and Renée: They have extensively studied the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and already know it. So much so that neither (nor, of course, the Intercept article) ever thought of mentioning it. I guess it’s irrelevant. As for the rest of you, should you be interested and want to read the entire thing, complete with the rest of the hate-filled, antisemitic gems in it, you can read it in full here. If you like you might want to read it side by side with the Israeli Declaration of Independence. See if you can spot any differences.
I’ll have more to say here, but I will write that in a separate comment.
Oh heavens no. When colonozing murderous thieves totally win, they snuff out the spirit of the few of the 100 million they didn’t murder, convert them to their religion and then they become self policed. My indigenous ancestors were hospitable saved the invaders from death, and were largely murdered without resistance. Any time the invaders make war it’s justified under god and a victory, When the victim fights back it’s of the devil and a massacre. The few that get out of line can be silenced. I feel for the VICTIMS in all of these rapes. It’s really fucked up and it’s probably not possible but grow the hell up these caveman brains on all ides. Let’s just stop pretending the wrong is justifiable.
Canada is seeing a non Indigenous ALLY movement pressuring Gov’t to live up to the lawful treaties. Indigenous Peoples here are the enemy of the state. They are told what they can have. And it’s how la riche want it. I won’t get started…. I won’t…. The Indigenous say, we aren’t asking for our lands back but we want farness and equality. Like the experience of all Indigenous Peopes everywhere the Invaders never stop. In Manitoba, mdern times, early 1900’s; the City wanted to increase its potable water supply. So they began excavation, stole their land and drinking water, urning Shoal First Nation into an island with no land bridge. Further they were deprived by city enacted law from accessing what had been their water supply. No water, no medical or polce or fire services.Late Spring to Fall the People used boats to reach the mainland. Dozens of people fell through Winter ice and died. Finally when the Trudeau gov’t was elected we exacted a campaign promise to build a bridge, which is being honoured. But it only happened when White Allies joined the march in droves. Police still murder Indigenous people, assault them, medical staff let them die in Emergency. They are as at risk as Black and People of Colour in the USA. This week in Vancouver an 81 year old Black retired Judge out for his morning walk was overcome, cuffed an detained by 5 courageous police on the lookout for a Black 40 year old. A paralysed 86 year old Indigenous/CoastalSalish woman was pulled from her car by her hair and slammed to the ground when she tried to explain she could not exit her vehicle. They had stopped to eat a burger in a No Parking Zone. Video recorded
A since passed Rabbi I met while in SW school, David Jacobs, remarked about civil protests, ” It’s unchristian.”
” They’ve even got the Jews saying it, ” It’s unchristian.”
Saul Alinsky who I was lucky enough to have as an activism teacher found the Israeli occupation of Palestine unsettling. He believed the Philistines were the ancient owners of the questioned lands and that the, though unrelated, Palestinians had the right of near times possession. I referred to one of his teachings, about how even the kindest dog will bite when it’s terror tolerance has been passed. If Palestinians, as a whole, decide they would rather fight to the death than be picked off one by one in their beds the carnage will be unimagineable. How do you defend Israeli soldiers invading a mosque and shooting women and children, on their knees.. It was filmed. So like Maga Trumpers we should call truth fake news when it doesn;t suit our chosen version of truth ? I can tell you, burying your child changes you forever. You feel bulletproof. Carrying the bodies of your murdered children could be the final straw. I know, I know, they’ve done so before, and nothing monumental happened. When we provided the Israeli gov’t with White Phosphorous explosives there were no bodies to bury, the children playing on rooftops were vaporized. Now those are only used when their agents carry out assassinations in foreighn countries. Their famed motorcycle assassins can pick off the most untouchable targets but Israel has to level Palestinian apartment complexes. Israel can’t collect prestrike intelligence to practice self defense but in an instant they can spot a Hamas operative and launch an offensive action to those coordinates in the blink of an eye.They have USA’s best Star Wars weaponry , the Palestinians have fly swatters. Israel has the, ” Iron Dome,” Palestinians have , ” Run like hell IF you hear the incoming weapons of mass destruction.”
Daniel,
I understand you want to point out some of the Islamic extremist texts, but in that case i wonder what the ultra orthodox extremists say about properties and rights of the Palestinians.
i don’t approve of Hamas, but also have some understanding for the frustration of more and more Palestinians suffering the disproportional counterattacks they cannot escape.
in one house, two women and 8 kids all killed by an Israeli bomb, one 6 month old baby being the only survivor, it is all so sad and crazy.
isn’t it true in the past decades too many people have been chased from land and homes and denied access to for example the seashore?
it must feel very wrong to have to endure that, and to watch your former home being taken over by ‘colonists’.
my point being there are many wrongs and rights on each side, but to be honest, just my feeling, Netanyahu gives me the creeps…
I once read a book about the history and current situation and its conclusion was the only real option would be a fair joined government with equal rights for everyone, Jewish and muslim people.
it is practically , that book said, as good as impossible to divide the land and roads and accesses fairly between the two people.
maybe the extremists should be left aside in the whole discussion to find any agreements, or better still, they should be controlled and detained for every illegal action, on both sides.
but well, I can only watch and listen and feel very sad for all those suffering.
m
Margaret, Netanyahu said in an interview a day or so ago that Hamas militants like to hide their weaponry within civilian areas precisely so everyone can be outraged at the Israelis killing children. Netanyahu added that he and the Israeli Defense Forces would be more than happy to attack Hamas in the countryside, far removed from civilians…but the Hamas are using them as human shields to inspire hatred towards retaliating Israelis.
This puts Israel in a bad situation. They either:
a) Just sit back and let the Palestinians barrage the Israelis with hundreds or thousands of rockets, killing their own civilians and destroying their schools and hospitals with no response given, or…
b) Retaliate to destroy the mechanisms enabling future rocket attacks as surgically as possible so as to avoid civilians, but given that Hamas is purposely hiding out within civilian areas, even the finest surgical strikes cannot avoid civilian and child casualties.
It’s a damned if you do, damned if you don’t catch-22 for the Israelis.
Margaret, These are not “some of the Islamic extremist text” but Hamas’s very covenant, their Raison D’être, what they preach in their mosques, and teach their children in school. On the opposite side, regardless of what this or that orthodox Jewish Israeli extremist may say or write, you will find nothing of the kind in official Israel, its publications, its educational system, or its army. Nothing.
Regarding civilian casualties, and to add to what Gur wrote, if you step away from the propaganda anyone who knows anything about conducting combat in populated areas is astonished at the low number of civilian deaths, terrible as each one of them is (by the way, you haven’t mentioned Israeli women or children casualties. The media aren’t interested in those). Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on the planet and after being pounded for a week with hundreds of air sorties by NATO grade weapons the total number of dead, most of whom are militants, are, up till now, slightly less than 200. For comparison, in Chicago alone, as of May 3, 201 people were killed since the year began. Judging by past experience, had it been Russia, Britain, France, Turkey or the US bombing there the number of dead would run by now into the many thousands.
As for proportional response – any suggestions on how to stop the launching of rockets are welcome. Just put yourself in the shoes of a leader having to protect your citizens. What would you do? Hamas without any provocation attacked Israel by indiscriminately firing rockets into its towns and cities, and I for one hope that this terrorist organisation will end this round on its knees, with much of its assets – chain of command, infrastructure, weapons and means of producing them – will be taken away from them, as Israel is gradually trying to do.
As I wrote here many times in the past, I’m highly critical of Israeli policies, actions and inactions, including those surrounding this last round of violence, but that takes nothing from Palestinian’s responsibility for what happens to them.
More to come.
I sympathize more with the Palestinians in this conflict in Israel, it seems like they’re stuck in a very bad situation, especially in Gaza. Maybe everyone is, but they seem to have far fewer options.
But none of this dominates my thinking and feeling at any given moment.
I had a very good weekend, I was outside a lot, planted my vegetable garden, we went for a nice walk. We got together with friends, things are getting back to normal. But the main thing I talked, about, as usual, was how many more years, months, and days I have until retirement. It’s still a while yet. My job doesn’t at all energize me. But I doubt any would.
This morning I had major sad feelings, it’s just never ending sadness. I get relief, but it comes back, and I have to go deeper. When will it ever end?
Phil
I understand that question, Phil. When and if it will ever end. Will I ever have happy days before my death. A few days ago I woke in the emotional feelings of being raped as a toddler. The memory and physical feelings were experienced in 1990 while working out in prep for Master Camp. My lifelong anal bleeds / internal hemorrhoids ended. This was the first time for I don’t know of a succinct label to put on the feeling, hurt, sadness, bewilderment just tore me apart. The crying led to an old feeling of hopelessness,then I hear myself making gutteral noises, my boy tart twisting; too exhausting to stay there.
I’m always, criticising myself, this time again about monitoring myself because I hear the noises. I don’t knowingly create them. It makes me feel like I’m not good enough, bad, a liar. That’s fucking horrible, to fuck up a little kid like that.
Guru,
I find that too simplistic and too much like accepting an easy excuse for exaggerated violence in return to rocket attacks that are mainly intercepted in time.
Israel says they warn inhabitants of buildings they attack but the house with the family had not received any warning.
and then there is the building with all the press agencies, they got a warning, yes, one hour in advance, but despite their request for proof of the Israeli claim that the press building was used for terrorist goals, no proof whatsoever has been given.
to me it seems the main goal was impeding critical covering , or maybe even simply objective covering …
Netanyahu does not hide either he wants to beat back extremely hard every time, and does not mind much all the ‘collateral damage’ being inflicted on innocent civilians.
and yes, that goes for both sides, but bombing people who can’t get away and often have no shelters, for me remains unacceptable even if some ways of defense could be understandable.
it is just too much out of proportion and does not feel right.
in this way things can only deteriorate more and more and cause more grieving and pain, and not to forget more hatred …
and more and more extremism at both sides.
i was touched though hearing about two peace workers, one Israeli and one Palestinian, both living very close to the separation of the territories.
Palestinian government asked for vaccines at least for their health professionals, and did not get it.
Israel, or it s government, said they did not want any…
the one hopeful thing is many Israeli also do not agree with the aggressive government actions.
and no, it is not black and white, but some things are simply not acceptable.
M
Daniel,
I will stop this discussion after this reply.
just heard the news, 198 casualties in Gaza, 10 in Israel.
one family, who were celebrating the end of the Ramadan, a man lost his wife, four of his five children, and his sister in law and her four children. the only one remaining is his 6 months old son.
that in itself already equals Israeli casualties…
it feels indecent to go further into discussions about whether it is acceptable or not to me.
and you say Gaza is the most densely populated territory , why is that, ha, it seems sort of a cage where people have been driven together, most just civilians, and now bombed.
if I would be one of them, i would be terribly angry by now as well.
it still is no excuse for Hamas firing rockets, but there is no excuse at all for the Israeli attacks the way they go on, even after terrible events like this slaughtered family.
there must be many other ways to deal with this.
on the news there was also repeated the so called proof for terrorists in the press building which was supposedly handed over to the US government, still has not ‘arrived’ it seems.
no excuse for exaggerated violence, that is the bottom line for me, and Netanyahu has given me a very bad feeling for a long time, it feels like he enjoys this somehow.
just a gut feeling, but I trust it to have some ground.
he simply does not care one bit.
M
good on ya , Margaret, well supported by evidence.
To all those asking how come Gazans are “caged”:
1) For some reason it is, as always, the fault of others.
2) For some reason it will never be mentioned that Gaza has a border with Egypt, a fellow Muslim country. Such facts disturb the narrative that they are “caged” by Israel.
3) The best way to not be “caged” by anybody is not to fire rockets.
4) The best way to keep borders open in to accept the Quartet Conditions.
While you consider those points, here are some people supporting the Hamas cause in Finchley Road, London:
I wonder, if every flare-up in Armenia-Azerbaijan, Russia-Ukraine, India-Pakistan, etc., resulted in a predictable racist violence—always against one side—in diaspora communities in Europe and N. America, would it tell us something about the cause being fought for in the distant conflict?
The notorious anti-semite Senatot Bernie Sanders says, “… the government of Israel has developed into a gang of thugs intent on destroying the Palestinian peoples.” Bernie inists that there was no Hamas presence in any of the recent Israeli targeted bombings but rather carried out to create a news blackout to eviscerate public sentiment in favour of the Palestinians over the atrocities being committed by Israel. Aljazeera and other valid news outlets are off line.He points out that Israel also wiped out the road leading to the only Palestinian Hospital thus depriving the injured of medical treatment. He agrees that the Palestinian authority must answer to corruption charges, but, is adamant that both Jews and Palestinians have right to live in peace and dignity without fear.
Balfour Declaration
Location British Library
Author(s) Walter Rothschild, Arthur Balfour, Leo Ato the negotiationsmery, Lord Milner
Signatories Arthur James Balfour
Purpose: Confirming support from the British government for the establishment, ” in Palestine,” of a “national home” for the Jewish people, with two conditions. The majority Palestinian population was not given a voice to the negotiations.
The opening words of the declaration represented the first public expression of support for Zionism by a major political power. The term “national home” had no precedent in international law, and was intentionally vague as to whether a Jewish state was contemplated. The intended boundaries were not specified, and the British government later confirmed that the words “in Palestine” meant that the Jewish national home was not intended to cover all of Palestine. The second half of the declaration was added to satisfy opponents of the policy, who had claimed that it would otherwise prejudice the position of the local population of Palestine and encourage antisemitism worldwide by “stamping the Jews as strangers in their native lands”. The declaration called for safeguarding the civil and religious rights for the Palestinian Arabs, who composed the vast majority of the local population, and also the rights and political status of the Jewish communities in other countries outside of Palestine. The British government acknowledged in 1939 that the local population’s views should have been taken into account, and recognised in 2017 that the declaration should have called for protection of the Palestinian Arabs’ political rights.
The declaration has had many long-lasting consequences. It greatly increased popular support for Zionism within Jewish communities worldwide, and became a core component of the British Mandate for Palestine, the founding document of Mandatory Palestine, which later became Israel and the Palestinian territories. As a result, it is considered a principal cause of the ongoing Israeli–Palestinian conflict, often described as the world’s most intractable conflict.
Britain gave Palestine to Israel in order to win Jewish support for Britain’s First World War effort. At the same time, the British had promised the Arabs that a united Arab country, covering most of the Arab Middle East, would result if the Ottoman Turks were defeated.
US State Dep’t release: Israel bombed 3 Palestinian Hospitals and the only Covid 19 testing facility, killing medical staff. Homes of Medical Doctors were targeted by Israeli missels including that of the top Corona Virus researcher killing him and his children. 61 Palestinian and 12 Israeli children, DEAD. Settlers supported by Israeli militia killed 10 Palestinians in the West Bank. Israel claiming the airstrikes that have left more than 40,000 homeless and over 200 dead are the fault of malfunctioning crude Palestinian missels. Israel accepts credit for, ” 7 verified Hamas leadeship killings.”
David,
Can you please point me to that State Dep. Release? I looked but couldn’t find that info. Because other “facts” in your comment are mistaken, in all probability that State De. Release doesn’t really exist or exists with different facts.
First, in Israel there are indeed 12 dead but only 2-3 of them were children. Second, the Palestinians who were killed in the West Bank were killed by the army and not by settlers. Third, Israel claims that some rockets fired from Gaza landed in Gaza itself, and may have killed some civilians. Never did it claim that all 200 killed in Gaza were killed by those rockets. Fourth, Israel claims it has killed 35-40 key Hamas and Islamic Jihad military leaders (and not only 7). So you can see my skepticism.
While we’re at it, do you have an idea why the world’s Muslims, or world media for that matter, are up in arms about Gaza but are completely indifferent about Muslims, mostly children, being killed daily in madrasas, mosques and girl-schools in Afghanistan? This week alone they buried 85 girls from an attack on a school, 8 boys from an attack in a madrasa, and a whole family of 8 from an attack in a mosque. How come nobody gives a damn?
“b’tselem elohim” the Israeli Human Rights organization, classes Israel’s action, ” War Crimes,” and that it’s policy is one of , ” Apartheid.” I give a damn, I’m not nobody and I write about all of these atrocities daily. I watched the footage of Israeli soldiers shooting in the face and lobbing incindiary explosives of worshippers on their knees in a Mosque. The West Bank footage shows uniformed and civilian clothed assailants. “b’tselem elohim” levels the charges that Palestian Medical Doctors and their homes have been targeted for killing. “b’tselem elohim” levels that Israeli soldiers and civiians beat and shot art people who tried to help victim of he Israeli bombings. Some of the info comes from an Israeli government spokesman.
I know colonization when I see it. I know how fascist governments come to power. Behaviour, not documents of intent is my yardstick. And while I’m not all knowing I have a pretty good idea why some are chosen and some are abandoned. Currency ! I reiteate, the West and it’s Allies were complicit in the Holocaust. Sellers of goods in Canada and the USA provided war materials to Nazi Germany. When Hitler moved on white folks and the resources we chose to guard the Allies suited up. The , ” freeing,” of Jewish survival victims of that genocide was incidental, not the primary focus it should have been. And , yes, I grew up witnessing the sickening prejudice against Jews, Blacks, Natives/Indigenous,( I have Native ancestry,) East Asians, Catholics hating Protestants, the Protestants quietly contemptuous of Catholics.
The violence is reminiscent of Canadian Police in full Military Assault garb, rifles raised, sneering, intimidating Mi’kmaq women armed with Eagle feathers protesting fracking; or Canadian Soldiers bayonets fixed stabbing Mohawks simply standing their ground protesting a golf course proposed to bebuilt on their burial grounds. One unarmed woman stabbed in the chest was a decorated Olympic athlete. A soldier shot another soldier accidentally and that they tried to blame on the Mohawks. And the Conservative Federal and Provincial governments defend always the White rights, the interests of la riche. Indigenous people abused and left to die by our Medical staff in hospitals. Unarmed people with no legal histories shot in their beds, or sitting on the toilet. No wrong doing ever found. But they generally leave the violence and the murders to situations where the cameras aren’t rolling.
Apparently, Netanyahu is not intimidated by the cameras. This could not come at a better time for him, he facing possicle prison time. Could save his fascist butt. Destroying the NEWS networks, Associated Press, Al Jazeera, etal, was miitary strategy, not an ,” OOPSY, MY BAD.” No Hamas presence says Senator Bernie Sanders. I suppose like me he is ignorant of the facts that apparently only you have.
Last thought, I don’t cherry pick the atrocities that I find unacceptable and heart breaking, and represent. And I have no idea how to dismantle the fairy tales that keep people enslaved to 2000+ year old conflicts, or how to socialize the billions of brains so they think and act with rationality, rather than some vine swinging chemical reaction. As fucked up as I am, I know it’s wrong and I don’t do it.
David, I think the human rights group you are referring to is called “B’Tselem” not ““b’tselem elohim”. This is their website: https://www.btselem.org/. They document the human rights abuses being committed by the Israeli army in the occupied territories.
SORRREE, don’t know how this jumped from a reply in a personal email conversation to this page.
That has been a lifetime experience, mine and friends, Black and Mi’kmaq. Both are mixed with my white ancestry. My reference to murderous colonizers was from those experences of Black and Mi’kmaq, in this Province as well as those larger experiences. In my Village of origin Black folks were much more accepted than Mi’kmaw. When I was a boy Mi’kmaq had to have a document from the Inian Agent to come off the Reserve. He was vicious and a sexual predator, so we know how that went. My brother dealt with him on his first Army furlough. And to this day when whitey/gov’t is in a sharing leg up mood we try to figure out , ” his,” angle. And we’re never disappointed. Our reserves appear in federal survey documents as prison camps. Build a new woodhouse and federal surveyors are Johnny-on-the-spot from Ottawa to GPS the coordinates and get an explanation for it’s significance. They are told to leave until a written request to visit is filed and are invited by Chief and Counci.
Black folks, particularly women, couldn’t get appointments in hair salons, or clerking jobs in stores, here, in the 70’s. Public embarassment was effective. Sadly the communities lost so many youth who went on to Academic prominence an relocated because of the racism. Black Loyalists, prominent business people, who settled Birchtown, Shelburne Co, fled to Sierre Leon to escape slaughter. My friend Elizabeth Cromwell from that ancestry hurt the most when treated with the dignity and love she earned, even though sincere, from whites.
Renee, I intended to reference that B’tselem group derived the name of the org from the principle, “b’tselem elohim” (in the image of God). Sometimes I wish I was ignorant of all ongoing atrocities. I am sad for all of them. They are all victims. I believe the grip of those in power depends on keeping the blind hatred stimulated. Somewhere in the script there’s a paycheck in it for la riche. Send the bloody politicians to battle. They’re manipulating and destroying the lives they convince of the inane prejudices.
One of my Pandenmic lockdown tunes. John Prine woulda grinned.. And no, I’ve not wavered, non theist for 63 years,
I think the title is evident
Jesus was a cross dresser
Floor length gowns, long flowing tresses
Represented the right for men to wear dresses
If they want to, or feel the need to
Yes Jesus was a cross dresser
But he was no sit on the fencer
Struck fear in the minds of the scribes and royalty
He said that he would come ag’in
And I think he did, last time, as George Carlin
Like JC GC was persecuted, too
Yeah Jesus was a cross dresser
He said no one was more or lesser
He could have lived the life if he’d stopped saying such silly things
So, David, there was NO State Dep. Release, you can’t point at one. It was just fake news you were spreading. Instead, you bring up another charge “of Israeli soldiers shooting in the face and lobbing incindiary explosives of worshippers on their knees in a Mosque”. Can you please point me to that video? Because, frankly, I don’t believe it. More likely, it is another fake news, a blood liable we Jews are rather familiar with.
You write that you “know how fascist governments come to power”, insinuating Israel is that government, but in the same breath quote from an Israeli Human Rights Organisation, without noticing how the existence of the latter contradicts the existence of the former. Fascist regimes do not allow Human Rights Organisations. NO, the truth is B’etselem operates in an open society which guarantees and protects freedom of assembly, freedom of the press, and freedom of organization, all the things that Gazans can only dream about. Don’t kid yourself, anything that comes out of there is strictly controlled by Hamas. You will see only what they want you to see.
You continue to state that, “Behaviour, not documents of intent is [your] yardstick”, presumably downplaying the Hamas Charter I quoted from. Is that really so? Because just a blog minute ago you wrote a great deal about the Balfour Declaration, probably THE document of intent in this conflict. In other words, your yardstick seems to be very flexible, and is based not on principle but personal political need.
And while discussing the Balfour Declaration (a document), you didn’t feel it necessary to write ANYTHING about the Arab rejection of the Partition Plan and starting of war against the Jews in Palestine instead – surely, a “behaviour” on their part. Nor have you found anything worth mentioning, even in B’tselem’s reports, regarding Palestinian violence, as if that violence (behaviour) has nothing to do with anything.
In short, David, your yardstick measures mostly your intellectual dishonesty (at best) or your racism (at worst).
Capable of error, YES; deliberate fake news, NO; racism, NO. The videos are easily found on Youtube, unless taken down minutes ago.It is arrogant for you to think you can categorize me. Daniel you raise your fist when your views cannot be recognized as the definitive authority. That is what I thought I observed on the blog. And that reaction is relentless. I could offer you a lazy pass and say I can understand, ( and I can,) given what you hint at as being your personal life and historical study experience. My only knowledge of the Jewish experience is from History studies and the sickening contempt for Jews I witnessed in my small Province. You missed anything I wrote about that. Perhaps I am handicapped in that, raised dirt poor, we had more friends visit our home of colour and ethnicities that whites, including Black, Mi’kmaq, and Jewish. Those differences meant no more than hair colour. I have White, Mi’kmaq, and Black ancestry. Ethnic hatred, contempt for the different is unacceptable. But so is blind instruction, beginning the experiment with the preferred conclusion and dismissing any evidence that doesn’t meet that aim. Maybe I’m capable of being guilty of that, too, because I hate bullying. If we let that excuse inform and instruct our behaviour and beliefs, enabling, where is the hope for a kinder future, where we judge and treat each other only by what we show is inside of us, not our ethnicities nor our colours.
I know racism, sometimes adjudicated of not being enough of any one to be accepted by any one. And told by the Majority what we can have.
There has been quite a lot of mentioning how Israel abuses Palestinians overall, so I asked, “Is there anything GOOD that Israel does for them?”
I spent a few minutes hunting around…so others might have better results than mine.
I could only find this old and outdated page from 2010 showing Israel gives a ton (yes, a literal ton…2,000 pounds) of humanitarian aid for each person in Gaza:
“Behind the Headlines: The Israeli humanitarian lifeline to Gaza”
https://mfa.gov.il/MFA/ForeignPolicy/Issues/Pages/Israeli_humanitarian_lifeline_Gaza_25-May-2010.aspx
It’s not as though the Palestinians are sending a ton of goods every year to each Israeli, are they? A ton of goodies each year sounds pretty lavish to me. I remember as a child during Christmas when I was considered “spoiled” for receiving twenty or so wrapped gifts adding up to 20-25 pounds or so.
Thanks, PaulaInteresting, since there are, or were, regulations governing the transfer of public owned property to private buyers. This was a Section 40 Rural and Native Housing build. It was built for Herbie Morine and vacated by hm before the mortgage was paid out. Reportedly he had water supply problems. A demolition satisfying period would make the water front site perhaps more valuable than if a liveable structure existed. Oh well, I’m too long in the tooth to become a social causes warrior anymore. And maybe there’s nothing to be seen here. Nearly 50 years ago myself and a former Social Development officer with the help of a Consumer Canada officer, fearless, Mike Bacon, chased these down. The usual scenario was that, ” approved Section 40 builders,” built such substandard houses using, for example, chimney brick , subflooring, roofing shingles, and, glazing, that failed home construction specs; and, not following code respecting attic space and soffit ventilation. Sometimes the builder would leave the interior partialy unfinishesd, doors, closets, trim, with the promise to the Sec 40 homebuyer of returning to complete the job. ” Bad,” wells were another issue. Since these, ” builders,” were gov’t minister connected the complaints died. One time we were lucky enough to find a Provincially employed, CMHC approved, Inspector to inspect numerous Annapolis County builds and file reports with copy to us, Annaco Housing. His report was scathing. He was fired and his replacement negated all of his concerns.The end game appeared to be to frustrate the Sec 40 client to the point they vacated the house. After a peiod of vacancy a subsequent inspection presented the requirement for far too costly upgrades, mold, permeable chimney brick, delaminated subflooring, windows replacement, etc., and the property was disposed of. Guess whose bid was successful ? If you guessed the, ” contractor,” BINGO. The next phase was for the contractor to not transfer the deed to himself, but reserve that transfer directly to the next home buyer. Used car dealers still use that gimic. Broken paper trail.Finally, my Director received a suggestion from someone in gov’t that our, ” time would be better spent not witch hunting,” the, ” contractor.” Mike Bacon was ,”promoted,” to an impotent paper pushing senior management position in Halifax. The joys of independent public service…. still miss representing the people. Dave
SORRREE, don’t know how this jumped from a reply in a personal email conversation to this page.
Propaganda, guru. Western and British conspired and inspired. Log onto valid Human Rights sites, like, Democracy Now, and, the official Israeli Human Rights group, B’Tselem. Jewish, Independent US Senator, Bernie Sanders brands the Israeli gov’t as thugs bent on annihilating Palestine; Palestine is the world’s largest outdoor prison. Although the British written, Balfour Declaration which created, a property for developing Israel, was clear in intent in giving then British, ” owned,” land , ” undefined by survey description, to provide a location for a Jewish homeland within the borders of Palestine, not to interfere with or eliminate Palestine.
The US pours Billions of dollars annually into Israeli military support.
Israel has again bombed Palestinian Hospitals, killing medical staff and patients, destroyed the only highway to the Palestinian medical treatment facility, and the Covid 19 research and testing center. The home of the top Covid 19 Medical researcher was bombed killing him and his children. Israel has reneged on immunizing Palestinians, although procurred vaccine was earmarked for them. Every bit of, ” goods, necessaries,” has to go though the Israeli gov’t. MD’s homes are targeted for fatal missel strikes, soldiers and settlers are video’d attacking would be rescuers of injured victims. Media offices of the Allied Press and Al Jazeera were destroyed by Israeli attack.
What should this unceasing campaign, since 1948, be called ? What did we call the ISIS agenda ?
The Israeli PM, Netanyahu, is currently on trial for corruption.
So, Israel is fascist, Nazi, and ISIS – and still somehow manages to put its most powerful man (prime minister) on trial? Do you see some discrepancies here? Some logical errors? Some wrong assumptions on your part? I suspect not.
I reserve, ” NAZI,” for the monstrous Hitler regime. Fascist is a descriptor of political behaviour. It follows authoritarianism, say the scholars. Interviewed Arab Jews allege that they are targeted for violence and are being dispossessed of their homes and belongings and thrown out of Irsael. Let’s see if Netanyahu is convicted. His indictment was corruption, ” including breach of trust, accepting bribes, and fraud. As a result of the indictment, Netanyahu was legally required to relinquish of his ministry portfolios other than Prime Minister.” Waging terror against a captive occupied Palestine is not amongst those charges. The United Nations and Israel Human Rights group, B’Tselem, charge the Israeli gov’t has committed War Crimes. B’Tselem, Human Right Watch, and Senator Bernie Sanders, an observant Jew, are not shy calling the regime murderous thugs.
The USA blocks the resulting motion calling for action.
” A third United Nations Security Council emergency meeting in a week – amid the deadly Israeli offensive in Gaza – has again ended with no concrete outcome after the United States blocked a joint statement calling for an immediate ceasefire between Israel and Hamas.”
Have Palestinians been passive, compliant with their oppressors requirement that they be non responsive? Definitely no. Has Hamas waged conflict? Apparently.
Had 100 Million Native Americans, first spiritually castrated by the missionaries, not taught whites how to survive and thrive, not consented to their genocide conducted by clerics, politicians, colonizing settlers, and the military; had Black slaves, also spiritually catrated by missionaries, covertly organized into a significant army to extinguish their captors, the complexion of North America, Turtle Island, would be much different. The mighty control the propaganda and write the accounts, mistaken for History.
Given the documented behaviour of Israel since 1948 I cannot dispute the description.
Fascistic regimes, not always blatant dictatorships, total, partial, functional, have been exhaustively studied. The current rising popularity of authoritarian populism was predicted in 1945. Switzerland and the Scandanavian Countries show enduring characteristics of authoritarian influence.
By the beginning of the Second World War, particularly after the German invasion of Eastern Europe Europe was strangled by various dictatorships, some fascist/Nazi dictatorships, some puppet, and a variety of semi-fascist or right-wing national and royalist authoritarian regimes. Very few, the smaller neutral states, kept democratic status.
Ireland, led by the authoritarian Fianna Fail gov’t; Iceland, occupied British and American forces; Switzerland, but pressured to restrict political freedom to avoid German invasion; and Sweden, which agreed for German military to pass through it’s Country. Finland heae by authoritarian president, Carl Mannerheim, because of the Winter War against the Soviets got to keep democratic governance. It was unequivocally Germany’s ally..
Democracy was attempted in three countries. Denmark, occupied but allowed to keep a semi-autonomous government, held restricted elections in 1943. Sweden, elections were held, fascists were interned and communism restricted. Switzerland held free elections, limited by surrounding fascist dictatorships and its own home grown Nazi movement.
The United Kingdom was the only politically free country having no outside pressure directing its governance, but, there was no general election during the war. Sir Oswald Mosley’s fascists were imprioned restrictions were enacted in to control opposing sentiments.
Democracy was limited even where it remained and wasn’t the most popular political system after the end of the war. It had been unable to stop authoritarianism from taking power, just as it failed trying to make extremist alternatives, left or right appear undesireable.
Marxist scholar, Eric Hobsbawm, called the twentieth century the, ‘Age of Extremism’.
A well known Russian political scientist, Andrei Melville, Higher School of Economics, St Peterburg, describes the Russian democratic consolidation as the process of ‘de-institutionalisation.’ The current demonstrated fearless show of citizen opposition to Vladamir Putin may be the sign that the people have had enough. I wonder if that is also a glimmer of what we are seeing now in the Palestinian Peoples’ attitude, or closer to coming, choosing to die inignantly walking towards the oppressor rather than continuing to perish from, loss of dignity, running from the despotism, or in their beds ?
To quote a dear friend, ” How far from the mouth of our cave have we crawled ?”
Back to Brené Brown and her timely question, “When you see blatant dehumanization, what story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with what’s happening?” It seems that one story is to call what happened at the al-Aqsa mosque when the Israeli police attacked Palestinians praying there on the last day of Ramadan “fake news”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1pt40ZelgM. I wish this was fake news. Then my heart wouldn’t break at the sight of history repeat itself. Sadly, it’s just a story we can tell ourselves to be okay with the dehumanization happening.
Another story we can tell ourselves is that the Palestinians that will likely be forced to leave their homes in East Jerusalem, that will be taken over by Israeli settlers, is simply a matter of them being “evicted”. Sadly, this is just another story we can tell ourselves to be okay with the ethnic cleansing that is happening there. I wish this was simply a matter of evictions. Then my heart wouldn’t break at the sight of history repeating itself. Brené Brown doesn’t understand how these stories, in the face of blatant dehumanization, can keep hearts hardened and protected from breaking into a million pieces…….I find it unbearable to witness the once victims of blatant dehumanization become the perpetrators of blatant dehumanization.
David, your comment referring to “colonizing murderous thieves” made me think that you would appreciate this article. It is a good reminder that colonization is not over: “The fallacy of the colonial ‘right to self-defence’ — Colonial powers have long demanded the ‘right to self-defence’ against the people they have colonised.” https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2021/5/16/the-fallacy-of-the-colonial-right-to-defence?mc_cid=7dd519a9c6&mc_eid=bbfd4b882e……”Colonial occupiers have long claimed a “right” to defend themselves from the resistance of native communities, including by committing mass murder. The history of African colonization is littered with the corpses and mass graves of those who dared to resist the militarily superior Europeans.” So sad. And so true.
I used to listen to this song while driving up from Long Beach to L.A. Those were my early days of Primal. I am not sure what the song meant to me. maybe i was not having fun in my life. The drive was always difficult, because you had to be at the Colby group by 7 and no later, as i recall. Then stand in line with people i did or didn’t know, but always afraid, no different than last year at Santa Monica group–always afraid of people. the drive made me anxious because it was always rush hour traffic and i always had to wait to leave for group, cant remember why. anyway, those days of young life are long gone. The Beach Boys – Fun Fun Fun.
So, again, just like before, no video of “of Israeli soldiers shooting in the face and lobbing incindiary explosives of worshippers on their knees in a Mosque”. Nothing. Zilch. A complete and utter libel. And, Renée, you know perfectly well exactly what I called “fake news” (shooting in the face and lobbing incendiary explosives), and changing what I meant and what I actually wrote, although not surprising, is shameful. By the way, the Guardian video didn’t really explain why the police entered the mosque (a terrible mistake in my opinion), as if this was just an arbitrary action, almost as if the police didn’t have anything better to do that morning.
It’s so easy to write batshit crazy and unfounded ideas, it’s just a keyboard and a click away. And it’s so easy to give up on any nuanced approach to reality and history for the angry but infantile black/white attitude of heroes and villains, victims and perpetrators.
And the irony, Renée, of using “Brené Brown and her timely question, ‘When you see blatant dehumanization, what story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with what’s happening?'” to point a finger but never to dwell on your own position and what story you have to tell yourself to be okay with a group of terrorists who not only proclaim in their founding covenant that they’re about killing Jews they have actually sent their people to explode themselves in busses, pizza parlours and night clubs, killing many men, women and children.
What story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with unprovoked launching of hundreds of rockets deliberately and indiscriminately into populated civilian areas? What story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with their treatment of their own gay or other LGBT people (mostly death), of their wholesale execution (a shot in the back of the head or throwing them off high-rise rooftops) without trial of their fellow Fatah Palestinians when they took Gaza over?
What story do you have to tell yourself to be okay with sexist, homophobic, Jew-hating, dictatorial, extreme-right-wing, terrorist suicide bombers and rocket launchers?
Exactly! What right do those terrorists have to resist their living conditions? What right do they have to protest the ethnic cleansing happening to them? They’re just a bunch of sexist, homophobic, Jew-hating, dictatorial, extreme-right-wing, terrorist suicide bombers and rocket launchers. Nothing more. And anyone who disagrees is being intellectually dishonest (at best) or racist (at worst). Why don’t people get it?
First, people do get. The European Union, Japan, Canada, and the United States have designated Hamas as a terrorist organization. Australia, New Zealand, Paraguay and the United Kingdom have designated only its military wing, the one firing rockets, as a terrorist organization. And it is and was Hamas I was talking about, yes? Not the Palestinians as a people, for whom I have more sympathy than you know.
Second, I was asking for some a more nuanced approach instead of the total good guys/bad guys one you display. No, Hamas is not ONLY “a bunch of sexist, homophobic, Jew-hating, dictatorial, extreme-right-wing, terrorist suicide bombers and rocket launchers”, but can we agree that they are ALSO that? As for me, I repeated on this blog my position that, in a nutshell, the core Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one where two peoples have strong attachment to the same piece of land, a communal conflict, and that both sides would love to have it all for themselves but cannot. As for a solution, I’m for some sort of compromise.
Third, you too have to tell yourself stories to be okay with terrorists who proclaim it mandatory to kill Jews, who refuse all compromise and aspire only for Jihad, and who blow themselves up in busses and night clubs. And surprise surprise – to be okay with it you tell yourself the exact same story you blame Israel or “colonial powers” for having: the right for self-defence. Projection anyone?
Fourth, living conditions can never be improved by launching rockets at a much more powerful foe. If you think Gazans are doing better now than before this last round you should take a closer look. And if you absolutely must enter the inappropriate term “ethnic cleansing” into the current situation and discussion then in case you haven’t noticed Jews have “ethnically cleansed” themselves from the Gaza strip about 15 year ago, withdrawing to the pre-1967 international border. Not a single one remained there. In return, after Hamas took power in Gaza, it first withdrew from all Palestinian agreements with Israel, and then began launching rockets into Israel’s towns and cities.
Fifth, if I got it right you live in Canada, presumably on non-ceded indigenous land. In other words, by your own standards you actively participate daily in a colonial project. Therefore, I’m sure you wouldn’t mind, even support, should indigenous militants begin to murder your neighbours, your friends, your family, and perhaps even you. After all they have a right to protest their dispossession.
Thanks, Barry and Guru, your support means a lot to me.
Daniel, I do want to reiterate that my two largest reasons for backing Israel overall has to do with religion and archaeology. I do think interested Jews should have a chance to thoroughly explore what’s underneath Temple Mount and see what potentially fascinating lessons could be learned. Clearly this is not likely to happen anytime soon, though.
You said earlier that some people believe the bedrock is close to the surface on Temple Mount so there wouldn’t be layers of aging artifacts beneath. How do we know whether the shallow bedrock supposition wasn’t being propagated by someone with an agenda to ameliorate intrepid Jews on the fringe who might have an interest in such an exploration?
To the more pacifist minded and restrictive to Jewish entry on the Mount one is, the shallower the bedrock becomes?
I wonder if digging a really deep hole somewhere in a secluded dark corner of Jerusalem, tunneling to the exact coordinates underneath the Mount, and working upwards would suffice? Something similar to the Mexican cartel drug smuggling tunnels underneath the US border, burrowing down from some abandoned building in northern Mexico, tunneling under the border, and up to an abandoned warehouse on the US side?
Cartel kingpin “El Chapo” Guzman used this “U-shaped” tunneling idea to great effect during his 2015 prison escape.
It’s probably a crazy and blasphemous idea for the supreme holy site, anyway. It only makes sense for secular purposes as cited with the Mexican example above.
Here’s an example from Turkey of what incredible finds can be potentially excavated:
https://twitter.com/ArtifactsHub_/status/1394690469624369153?s=20
That’s a magnificent mosaic there, Guru, from the dig in Turkey.
The temple mount, or Haram al Sharif as the Muslims call it, is too an explosive site for any trickery in digging. The Palestinians had always believed that the aim of Zionism, as its name implies, was to take over the mount to rebuild there their Jewish temple. Already in the 1920’s and 1930’s the mount (and the wailing wall) were at the heart of the nationalist sedition and political struggle of Haj Amin al Husseini, the Mufti of Jerusalem , who led his people to their defeat and downfall in 1948. To this day Palestinians believe the same so it would be a really bad idea to dig under the mount, for any reason. It’s a recipe for a disaster.
Daniel, yes I was well aware that digging under the mount would be an explosive recipe for disaster. I just presented the “El Chapo tunnel” idea for amusement.
I still personally feel that interested Jews should be able to dig under the mount, even though I know it’s never likely to happen.
I will start this off by saying that I am very ignorant of this whole situation as it stands today. My knowledge is updated by the occasional radio broadcast, and being into blogs in general – this one in particular. Indeed my vision of these current events include both Charlton Heston (and about 10 government directives) and the war scenes in Forrest Gump (mainly ‘cos I like chocolate). And
sometimes PEOPLE magazine.
My gut however aligns with Daniel on this for a number of reasons – # 1) He LIVES it. How can any of us here in North America expect to know the situation in Israel better than a local? Who can understand our indigenous situation in “O Canada” better than us? We see/hear/feel things that others can’t. #2) It’s Daniel – one of the most interesting ‘debaters’ in my view that I’ve ever listened to on the Primal Blog, and also one of the most patient. How many times does the poor guy have to win an argument? !!! # 3) Daniel LIVES it. I’ve seen and worked around Vancouver’s downtown East-side. How many stories could David tell us about his ancestry? How many families does Daniel know who have lost someone to rockets? How often has he been hurt by prejudice? Listen to people who are there.
Let’s face it. We live in a world full of hate, bigotry, violence, injustice, sickness, hunger ….. but also
of love, compassion, beauty, NETFLIX and wildlife. We are also all, in some way, overstressed and restricted pawns, abused by those who lead us. Whether our suffering is physical, emotional, financial or robotic, we all hurt in some way. In Canada we are lucky enough to be taxed to death, a slow and relatively painless way to go. (Physically anyway) In many parts of the world my last sentence would be meaningless. How could it not be when all my thought processes are geared towards trying to survive the night, or wondering how long my infant can last if there is no food. Whether someone dies from a bullet or jumps off a skyscraper due to sudden insolvency doesn’t matter. Pain is pain
Some pain, however, can be an integral part of you. If you, your family, your ancestry, indeed your race has known or experienced nothing else since their inception, how can hurt not be a part of your DNA? How great can the Jewish survival instinct be?. Even the gentlest of dogs will bite if they are whipped hard enough’ Rightly or wrongly, I think the Hamas should be aware that nips could become full fledged bites.
Barry
ps. I am sure Daniel will have a comment or two, and I eagerly await them, but let me say something that he is too much the gentleman to say, though I can’t vouch for what he feels.
Renee, for God’s sake, take a hike!
Barry, aside from your postscript I have to tell you I was very impressed with your exposition about life…but why are you so mean to Renee? David and Margaret share her views and you never said anything to them about that.
At least for me, whenever someone presents an opposing view with civility, I look at it as an ‘irritating challenge’ forcing me to re-examine my own beliefs (which usually don’t change anyway unless it’s something outstandingly revelatory)…yet I would never really rise to the level of telling him or her to ‘fuck off’.
Team Israel: Daniel, Guru, Barry
Team Palestine: David, Renee, Margaret
Please do not put words in my mouth Guru.
To answer your question – because she irritates the hell out of me, Her refusal to answer questions about herself, be they helpful or hard to answer, her ability to create negative situations when there is no need to do so, and her lack of taking responsibility for it when challenged to name a couple. I’ll admit to a lack of looking inwards as to why what she does has long gotten under my skin, but it is now at the ‘I have to just say something stage’.
Barry
I think the “right” side is being against all the violence in Israel. In an ideal world Israelis and Palestinians could live together in peace, with past injustices corrected as best as possible. Phil
Is that the world where Trump donated his Mar-a-Lago residence to the homeless, Milli Vanilli actually sang their own songs, and Hitler shaved off his stupid moustache? I’ve heard of it. One can only dream!
Barry
Barry, I just have to say I very much enjoyed the comments you posted above on May 20 and 21. And I always enjoy what Daniel has to say. Thanks.
Namaste, Skywalker!
Guru,
don’t put me in any camp please.
I am not against Israel, as you put it.
I do not approve of the current attitude the actual government adopts.
if it is a proper government, I seem to remember they again failed to form a coalition, but I might be wrong,.
yesterday I heard on the news they destroyed the only Corona labo of the Palestinians, that is an example of what I disapprove.
dirty fighting so to say…
they have as someone pointed out, some of the best weapons so know what they aim at, and a Corona lab, well, argh….
but don’t label me as being ‘against Israel’, group thinking is the last thing I want to do in these kind of discussions.
it is at the root of most extremist thinking of any side.
sometimes your sarcasm, guru, gets tiresome and annoying.
m
Margaret, all I can say is that…in 2002 once I witnessed the octillions of words of news coverage given to 9/11 and the gigantic settlements made therein, it left me a permanently sarcastic person when comparing it to all the incredibly dangerous problems the 130 words of news coverage of what happened to my mother (never mind the monetary settlement issue).
This is ONLY for self-therapy and not to entertain or engage in conversation. I’m talking to the padded wall here…
I worded the above poorly because I was very tired. Some time ago on the blog I said how ‘scamtastic’ it was for Warren Buffett to live to 90 (as he is today) while my mother’s end came at 30, with my saying Warren has lived three times as long as mom with all the rewards that come with such longevity.
A couple of additions/corrections:
–Back in her time, mom would have qualified to work in the mid-to-upper echelons of Warren’s holding company (Berkshire)
–Also, I made an error calculating 90 years of age being three times the length of 30 years where totality of life is concerned. A more useful calculation is removing first 18 years of life as formative childhood ones not used by the military/industrial complex. Taking off the first 18 years leaves Warren with 72 years of adult use (90-18 years) vs. mom’s 12 years of adult use (30-18 years). So, from that perspective…Warren has lived SIX times as long as mom.
All of the above I wrote among other anxiety-provoking factors occurring today led me to quickly pop half of a 0.25mg tablet of Xanax (net 0.125mg) under my tongue.
I’m glad I was sitting down when I saw this video……..Fox News actually telling the truth and Fox’s Geraldo Rivera finally growing a backbone! John Lennon would’ve proud of his old friend. If anyone wants a simple history of Israel-Palestine and is tired of hearing myself and Daniel disagree…….here is a refreshing alternative. Clearly, I’m Geraldo Rivera here and Daniel is Katie Pavlich. Check it out……. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RH6I1TF0WXQ.
(Geraldo Defends Palestinians And Schools Fox News On The Crisis.) You can’t get more clear than this. See if you can hear traces of holocaust trauma being recreated in this story, with the oppressed now become the oppressor. So heartbreaking and horrifying.
Geraldo and Katie both make some true factual points, although, as usual with such short “in-depth” TV segments, nothing can really be seriously attended to and developed. The development is thus left to David Doel who is so unashamedly one-sided and so professedly clueless (or intellectually dishonest) as to give up any attempt at a fair-minded review and analysis of the situation between the Palestinians in general, Gaza in particular, and Israel.
Let me give just two or three examples. First, David, uncritically using quotes from IMEU, a self-declared pro-Palestinian organisation, spoke of the “expulsion” of Palestinians to “make way for a Jewish state”, without resorting to unimportant facts such as the same Palestinians rejecting the partition of Palestine into a Jewish state and a Palestinian one, starting a war, attacking the Jewish population immediately after the Jews declared a state that fully recognised the Palestinians in their own towns and villages. I guess that rejection of the UN partition plan and the war they started against the Jews had nothing to do with what happened to them and therefore does not worth mentioning.
Second, Geraldo correctly explains that Gaza is blockaded by both Israel and Egypt. However, neither he nor David found it necessary to explain why that is. After all, Egypt is a fellow Arab nation, it has huge masses of land right at the Gaza’s doorstep, and can potentially supply Gazans with all their needs, including open borders, and air and sea ports. For some reason Hamas’s rockets and western media’s self-righteous indignation is saved for Israel alone. Why is that? No attempt was made at an explanation for the viewers. After all, such an explanation may fly in the face of simplistic, tendentious, and intellectually idle anti-Israeli rhetoric.
Third, there was no attempt to explain how these blockades came into being in the first place, what happened to Gaza’s once open borders, thus purposely leaving the viewer to believe this is just an arbitrary and cruel action by Israel (again, Egypt is left out. Its blockade is too inconvenient).
In sum, the whole piece adds nothing to real understanding of the real situation. But it does add fuel to the social-justice, anti-Israel outrage machine and make that crowd feel really good about themselves.
Why is it that what people DON’T say or tell us is often a million times more valuable than what they tell us?
This problem is made more insidious by not even knowing what’s not being told to you, so you don’t even know what to look for. (ie. “you don’t know what you don’t know”)
I cannot overstate what an enormous impediment this was for me with automotive injuries and fatalities being a systemic byproduct of our economic miracle story, but I am digressing away from the Middle East with that.
As a young toddler this insidiousness was heightened to monstrously suffocating levels since I didn’t even understand that there was an esoteric adult concept of not knowing that I don’t know something critical for personal empowerment.
Thank thee for the teaching all knowing lkeeper of the only truth, that being only your version. And apparently, Tony Blinkin is still Sec of State. I wrote a lengthy reponse only to have the system eat it up. With world authority the UN concluding that the Palestinians are an oppressed people forced to comply with being herded like lesser animals in the world’s largest outdoor prison, have at it, and that Israel is guilty of War Crimes. Shit on me and anyone else who takes the time to do actual research rather than be a populist idealogue if it makes your masculinity seem firmer. I rally don’t care. I’m out. Have at it. You are either disengenuous or too jaded to see. Both Peoples are the victims of a mob gang mentality.
David, You can huff and puff all you want, and reach any conclusion you want, including those you have reached regarding the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Just get the facts right and don’t omit those that are inconvenient. Just try to separate the facts from their interpretation. If you do a segment about the Palestinian refugees without even mentioning how they got to be refugees then you are intellectually dishonest. You can still go ahead and bring into the picture the normative perspective and speak of “war crimes”, nobody’s trying to take that away from you. But before you do that please include the relevant facts. That segment did not. Nor did you.
You can also speak of Gaza as an “outdoor prison” and of Gazans as “herded like lesser animals” (normative interpretations), but please take the trouble to at least name the wardens, because if you name only one of them (mmm.. let’s guess which one) then again you are committing an act of intellectual dishonesty.
Finally, since you’re so enamored with the genre, here is the real team you are rooting for: https://twitter.com/VICENews/status/1395837257895006209
Here is the link again, if it didn’t work:
Otto,
did you get anything out of group yesterday?
how are you doing?
how is the cat that has a hard time producing a poo?
m
Otto, Renee, and Daniel….sorry, I got carried away babbling. Please go ahead and continue discussing whatever you want.
i just started listening to this prince song, i don’t think i ever heard it until a few weeks ago. 1992 was always one of my super-favorites, with its deep-voiced guitarists singing ‘life is just a party and parties aren’t meant to last’. always my sadness about death. i caught 1999 when mtv first came out, watching it with our baby john while i was a stay-at-home-dad/student. but then i don’t think i ever heard too much prince after that. now this one is such a beautiful video. Prince & The New Power Generation – Cream (Extended Version) (Official Music Video) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gET9RBKNYcM&list=RDgET9RBKNYcM&start_radio=1
the bass line just makes me very sad for some reason. is it upbeat or what? anyway maybe i will be able to figure out what the pain is some day. youth, power, positivity, coolness, i don’t know. anyway
Here’s some interesting news I saw today, worse than what’s been going on in Israel:
https://futurism.com/the-byte/astronomer-warns-physics-experiment-destroy-galaxy
“If you’re ever having a bad day, remember that we could suddenly be blinked out of existence by an advanced alien civilization’s science experiment gone wrong.”
“That’s according to former Harvard astronomy chair Avi Loeb — notorious for insisting that various space phenomena is evidence of alien life — who wrote in a new Scientific American op-ed that a gigantic, advanced particle accelerator could create a dark energy explosion capable of burning everything in the galaxy at the speed of light. If we want to survive, he says, we’d engage in some interstellar diplomacy as soon as possible.”
It seems to be a little far fetched to me, but what do I know? I thought Donald Trump could never be president.
There’s been a lot of chatter over the past few years about how UFO’s are real and there are many actual recordings of them being slowly leaked out or released by the US military.
The guy in this video worked in the US government’s UFO program.
Your federal gov’t recently/yesterday, released a statement validating the UFO existence and is supposed to be making an official announcement this week. Military and domestic pilots who have documented sitings, including video, were interviewed in the major network programs. So far there is no charge that they have imprisoned or murdered any earthlings, not invaded nor colonized any Earth geography. ( Unless they are the Democrat cannabalistic, paedophiles Q and MagaTrumpsters have warned about.)
Let’s hope , “they,” the visitors, are more civilized and better socialized and just leave wagging their heads in disbelief and saddened for what they witness here.
I wish I could add a SMILEY FACE, Phil, but my heart won’t allow it.
Cheers, mate…
Phil,
it sounded intriguing enough for me to open the link.
but when I am obliged to accept the cookies, I often don’t want to anymore.
often sites offer a reader for which cookies are not needed, and this site offered to ‘manage’ the options, but well, i gave up at that point.
it turns me off when they mention they want to ‘use my data’, I feel they have no business with my data if I only want to read an article for example…
Argh, glad you described the contents Phil, at least I know now what it was about, without cookies!
M
Margaret, I’ve pasted the entire article below. I should have said that it’s potentially very bad news.
Several thoughts occurred to me. First off, maybe it’s better not to study physics. Secondly, that having been the head of astronomy at Harvard means you’re very smart, but not necessarily in good mental health.
NASA / Futrism
DANGEROUS SCIENCE
ASTRONOMER WARNS OF PHYSICS EXPERIMENT THAT COULD DESTROY OUR ENTIRE GALAXY
“WE WOULD NEVER KNOW WHAT HIT US.”
NASA / FUTRISM
Collateral Damage
If you’re ever having a bad day, remember that we could suddenly be blinked out of existence by an advanced alien civilization’s science experiment gone wrong.
That’s according to former Harvard astronomy chair Avi Loeb — notorious for insisting that various space phenomena is evidence of alien life — who wrote in a new Scientific American op-ed that a gigantic, advanced particle accelerator could create a dark energy explosion capable of burning everything in the galaxy at the speed of light. If we want to survive, he says, we’d engage in some interstellar diplomacy as soon as possible.
“One way to avoid a cosmic catastrophe of this type is to establish an interstellar treaty, similar to the Nuclear Test Ban Treaty, signed first in 1963 by the governments of the Soviet Union, the United Kingdom, and the United States,” Loeb wrote.
Distant Threat
Of course, this is likely not a pressing concern. Aside from the fact that there’s no evidence of extraterrestrial life in any form, least of all a super-advanced civilization capable of building such a device, it’s also not clear how or when we would make any kind of diplomatic pact with one
Loeb is also describing an explosion caused by a theoretical particle accelerator that theoretical aliens would need to construct at a scale larger than the size of our entire solar system. So, just to be clear, this is all completely hypothetical.
Don’t Blink
But if such a device were to be built inside our galaxy and be switched on, it could energize a “soap bubble” of dark energy that would expand and destroy everything in its path in a wave of cosmic destruction, not unlike the titular weapon from the “Halo” video game series.
“Would such a heat wave be a reason for concern?” Loeb wrote. “The bad news is that we would not receive any advance warning before this cosmic disaster hit us in the face because no precursor signal can move faster than light to alert us to the risk.”
“But perhaps this is also good news,” Loeb added, “since it implies that any resulting devastation would occur instantly and be as surprising as the Chicxulub impactor was for the dinosaurs. We would never know what hit us.”
Quoting that article above:
“Of course, this is likely not a pressing concern. Aside from the fact that there’s no evidence of extraterrestrial life in any form, least of all a super-advanced civilization capable of building such a device, it’s also not clear how or when we would make any kind of diplomatic pact with one…”
I’m not so sure about this quote anymore, have you seen this 60 Minutes clip recently?
Guru, What I meant is we aren’t capable of handling all the things we discover from studying physics, like nuclear weapons. I can’t watch any video clips at the moment, that’ll have to wait till later.
Phil
We’re too smart for our own good.
Guru, interesting. I see here they call them UAPs. If they are aliens having superior technology, then it’s up to them to initiate negotiations. Do they want their own prime time program? Why are they afraid of being seen? Are they that ugly? These are some of the questions in my mind. Maybe they were waiting for a new president and the moment is right. “TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER”. “I REPEAT, TAKE ME TO YOUR LEADER”.
That was a very wise baby who was able to explain a likely answer to your question, Phil.
They scanned the North Pole. Did they find SANTA’s Place ?? noooooa
Thanks Phil, that is nice of you.
it sounds very hypothetical indeed.
I remember when they were about to try out the larger particle accelerator in Switzerland they constructed to replace the first one, some articles appeared about possibly a disaster would occur when it would be tried out.
luckily so far that did not seem to happen.
physics does interest me, though in the minute particle department it becomes very hypothetical as well.
also large scale is interesting, like ‘does the universe has boundaries? will it keep expanding or will it at some point pull back together?’
i love these kind of questions, intriguing and mysterious…
M
My dad had a Masters degree in physics.
“If you’re ever having a bad day, remember that we could suddenly be blinked out of existence by an advanced alien civilization’s science experiment gone wrong.”
Phil, when I read that and saw that the person who came up with that theory was someone named Avi Loeb, I immediately wondered if he had historical trauma in his background connected to the holocaust. Why? Because unresolved and unprocessed trauma has to come out somehow……in this case, with a bizarre theory that otherwise would make no sense. A quick Google search confirmed that my hunch was correct. Loeb lost 65 family members in the holocaust. Absolutely horrifying. https://lweb.cfa.harvard.edu/~loeb/Loeb_Autobiography.pdf.
Renee, honestly I think you’re jumping the gun on this one. Avi was born in 1962, a full 17 years after World War II. He also appears to have written 600 scholarly papers with a ‘h-index’ of over 90, signifying a great deal of trust and respect from his academic peers. If you would argue that background trauma caused Avi to write his recent paper, would this trauma bring about the 600 other papers I mentioned?
Personally, I believe there is at least of modicum of credible threat from the scenario Avi mentioned, though I still think it only warrants a shoulder shrug with a “so what? no big deal” since we would never know what hit us anyway.
(correction) “Personally, I believe there is at least a modicum…”
Ugg, historical trauma is also known as generational trauma, or intergenerational transmission of trauma, whereby trauma gets passed down from one generation to the next.
Here is how generational/historical trauma works: https://www.health.com/condition/ptsd/generational-trauma.
Renee, I understand the concept inter-generational trauma well enough especially since what happened to my mother had an enormous impact on my own interest and/or ability to have children of my own.
I’m simply saying I don’t see how trauma played a serious role in Avi’s papers since there are over 600 of them which would have to be affected as well.
Renee,
That is an amazing deduction, and horrifying.
Phil
Yes, Phil, it is horrifying. And certainly would explain why he needed to write 600 papers on such a bizarre subject (trauma symbolized, IMO). Also, his reference to “science experiments gone wrong”, left me wondering if some of his 65 family members who perished in the holocaust might have been victims of Dr. Josef Mengele, who was known as “The Angel of Death”. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y7ssLE3FddY
“Just get the facts right and don’t omit those that are inconvenient. Just try to separate the facts from their interpretation. If you do a segment about the Palestinian refugees without even mentioning how they got to be refugees then you are intellectually dishonest.” Who’s facts? And for what purpose? What we choose to believe as “facts” and what is “intellectually honest” will depend on whose side we’re on. And to be left wondering how the Palestinians became refugees without acknowledging the Nakba (catastrophe/disaster) is clearly stating where one stands on the issue of Israel-Palestine.
For anyone still intent on blaming Hamas for what is happening in Israel-Palestine, here is more evidence that this “fact” is not accurate. I like this article because it provides a historical context to show that Hamas is not the problem, which the Intercept article did not. https://peterbeinart.substack.com/p/if-israel-eliminated-hamas-nothing?r=hyt9f&utm_campaign=post&utm_medium=email&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2x3iAyM9TiU0_DWA1P3PSp3cfXtec2cx6yBZhRqQMHYIK9l0RpaMZ1cDg. “If Israel Eliminated Hamas, Nothing Fundamental Would Change”…………“Eliminating Hamas won’t eliminate Palestinian violence any more than eliminating the ANC or IRA would have eliminated Black South African or Irish Catholic violence in the 1980s. The only way to stop oppressed people from responding to the violence of oppression with violence of their own is to end their oppression.”
Renée,
What’s with the constant “Who’s facts?” bit? Did you see anywhere on this blog that I denied the disaster that befell the Palestinians? On the contrary, their mass loss of homes and land, becoming refugees (their Nakba), was and is fully acknowledged by me. It is an incontestable historical fact, independent of which side one is on. No one of any historical knowledge of the conflict has ever denied it. So why are you making it sound as if I or others deny this fact?
Since you’re trying to apply the “Who’s facts? And for what purpose?” argument to a fact (the Nakba) everybody in reality accepts we’re left with just the “purpose”. The only explanation for why you would bring up such an argument is so you can justify the creation of facts of your own, or omit facts that do not support your political “purpose”. “Everyone has their own facts”, so your false argument goes, “and so will I”. That is indeed intellectually dishonest, and that is exactly what David Doel did in that clip you linked to.
Here is the slide from the clip, which he read in full:
Can you please either show me where he mentions the Arab rejection of the partition plan and the war they started in its stead, OR argue why those facts are unimportant enough to be omitted from a historical review of the origins of the conflict?
Anyone, on any side, who is denying or omitting incontestable facts for some “purpose” is intellectually dishonest. In case you haven’t fully noticed it you are advocating and promoting this very attitude.
A better question would be, “Why did the Arabs reject the partition plan”. The answer: “Arab leaders and governments rejected it and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division, arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny”. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Partition_Plan_for_Palestine. Sounds reasonable to me.
Wait, wait.. You are changing the subject, which was fair-minded reporting and analysis and the omission of inconvenient facts. What you are pointing to here are the reasoning behind this or that fact (here the rejection of the partition plan) while I was referring to the complete omission in the first place of the very fact of that rejection (and starting a war), thereby giving a wrong impression as to the very basic facts.
One doesn’t have to include in one’s reporting and analysis each and every fact. That would be too time and space consuming, and is likely to confuse viewers with too much information they wouldn’t really be able to process. However, a war, particularly a civil war, and especially one that actually created the refugee problem one is referring to, is surely a major fact in the story and omitting it from one’s reportage and analysis is more than negligent. It is, to repeat myself, intellectually dishonest.
As for the content of what you wrote here this is Déjà vu all over again. You and I had that exact same discussion couple of years ago, with you quoting the exact same words. My reply was in the third paragraph of this past comment of mine.
Daniel and Renee, this whole discussion is a rerun, even though there are new disturbances in Israel, but I think nothing much has changed. I wonder what would it take
to get more moderate leadership for both the Palestinians and Israel. Are the leaders leading or following the will of the people?
For Americans, it’s highly contentious because we provide a large amount of support to Israel. now and in the past. That’s why it gets so much attention by us.
Phil
UFOs are nothing to get excited about as they are simply unidentified things in the air, not necessarily flying saucers. We have no flying saucers at our place, but I think it’s a common phenomena at many houses when a fight is going on.
Phil
Phil, lest not we forget that California will be riddled with flying saucers come mid June with the earthquakes predicted by the psychics. Maybe there is a connection there as many psychics believe in aliens: flying saucers–earthquakes–there has to be something there! My logic class fails me right now, so I will have to rely on my intuition. Batten down those cupboards y’all, the aliens are coming to cause earthquakes and destroy your dishes! at least in the golden state.
I once saw an ad related to an international gathering of Psychics, and, I thought, why are they advertising, shouldn’t they just know…. ?
Ha ha ha, good one!
In 1965 I got to know a war camp survivor of torture, then a medic and battlefield Chaplain, who had had his nails pulled out and his tongue amputated during torture. He communicated through writing and his daughter’s voice. His whole demeanour was one of kindness, although his belief in a loving higher power was altered.
The ratio on how child survivors compensatory behaviour, based, unless changed since I was taught, on family units and dysfunction, substance addiction, child abuse, poverty, etc; out of 7 traumatized, 4 will be abusers/aggressors, 2 will marry abusers, and 1 didn’t seem to fall into either category.
Phil,
I once, long ago, launched a flying orange myself, which left a mysterious sun shaped orange spot on the wallpaper, maybe indicating its original solar system?
but well, I must admit ufo stories always raise some interest in me despite 99 percent of them being clouds or weather balloons etc.
the Martians must have detected ufos landing on their planet recently as well….
M
Another interesting story you may have seen: “Could humans have contaminated Mars with life?”
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210510-could-the-perseverance-rover-have-carried-life-to-mars
We may have left bacteria on Mars, which could find a way to survive, and eventually evolve into something unintelligent and run for president.
Ha ha ha.
When I think of Life on Mars, this is my favorite version, both because it’s the original and also because I like the look of his different size pupils: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AZKcl4-tcuo.
My computer is doing weird things, including eating compositions and not recognizing this blog’s/ WordPress ip address. Some of it is likely me since the vascular event of April 5 has brought some changes I hope are temporary. I’ll try again.
Anyway, the US gov’t has conceded that UFO’s are a real thing. Multiple recent interiews with military, private, and domestic pilots, supported by their flight video cameras’ recorded events, were shown. Their ability to reach phenomenal speeds, navigate, and disappear in an instant only to pop up in a different location confounded the observers. The military pilots, and US Intelligence were of the opinion that there is nothing in existence, not home, nor foreign, with the capability of the flights they have observed.
The US gov’t is expected to make a formal statement this week.
David, yes to all of what you said, and that’s exactly why I posted those two compelling videos yesterday (assuming bloggers here actually watched them).
And to add weight to the seriousness of the recent UFO disclosures, even Obama is talking about them: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/may/20/ufo-obama-cbs-60-minutes-america-aliens
Personally, I just hope one will come kidnap me so I can eat and sleep, and not have to worry about bills anymore. I figure if the aliens are too friendly to have killed us by now, they are likely too friendly to turn me into a slave for my room and board if they kidnap me.
Guru,
There seems to be an assumption that aliens will be interested in us and relatable. Maybe they’ll be more interested in dolphins, bluebirds, or coronaviruses as the most important and representative species on this planet.
Maybe they will need to mine our planet for resources, including water or wood, and we will seem like ants or orangutans and our lives inconsequential to them as they destroy our biosphere.
Canada is safe then, woodlands, water, and soil are fallen victims of economic Progress. If there is an advanced species out there it likely won’t want our archaic tools and toys… ): (:
And trying to properly Socialize earthlings would skuttle their resources…
Pretty sound deducing, Guru..
The October before I came to LA and PT, nearly daybreak, my sister in law and I watched an enormous flying craft, the size and shape of a football field with 2 gondolas, 1 top , 1 bottom, and lights, lights, lights, one row giving the appearance of endlessly rotating hovering maybe 100 feet, max, over the river North of my house. It wa no more than 500 feet from us. The water below was agitated. After some time it tilted slightly and , ” whoooosh,” gone. Per my Social Work investigative training, I diarized the event immediately.
My sister in law looked at me and said, ” I never saw that.” (
About 20 minutes later a journalist, and musician, Blaine Henshaw, an aquaintance, watched it during his routine daybreak meditative ascent to the top of Citadel Hill, Halifax. Blaine, in a sometime later radio call in, described an absolute identical craft and said that after hovering for a while it tilted and appeared to dive into Halifax Harbour.
My son works, currently remotely, for U of T. He’s a facts and numbers guy. A few days ago he was remembering a night, late 90’s, when we watched something in the North North Eastern sky, HIGH, the object not us, travelling between the same 3 points, a light, stars we thought, at each point of visistation; a perfectly repeated triangulation, perhaps every 1/2 hour. I finally retrieved high power binoculars so we could rule out atmospheric distortion of star light. Then it verred to the Eastward, and the other 3 lights followed….
Nothing to do with anything, but I began learning the Mi’kmaw language of my bio paternal g’father 3 yr ago. Every word paints a picture; it is an action language, verb driven, no articles nor adjectives. The descriptors are nouns. EG: , ” muin,” has become the word for bear. But it doen’t mean bear, it means it is explained to me by an elder/Speaker, sort of, the being who walks on 4 feet when the blueberries are in the meadow. I have noticed that I have been , unintentionally, droppng articles, conjunctions, and direct adjectives. It seems to reduce the smog and increase efficiency, …..maybe. I don’t know.
The time generous aged elder responded once to my attitude about not putting up with bullies, racists,and biggots. Pity them and occassionally do something nice for them was his counsel. He said they get worse if you make them look at their reflection.
David, I do have a sense for what you are saying with your final sentence about bullies being made to look at their reflection and their getting worse as a result. I already discussed on the blog many months ago about the gaslighting predatory neighbor whom I believe is a sociopathic liar (not pathological liar, but only lies as needed for personal gain). When I forced him to look at his own behavior by calling out his lie to an important individual, he destroyed the maximum legally allowed amount of a 100 year old tree on my front yard out of anger.
I shouldn’t have to be dealing with such nonsense defending my home. I have more than enough issues with the staggering economic losses and the hellhole of total obscurity from my mother’s early demise.
Much more I could say about this, just not much of a point to it now. It just exhausts me from being riled up about it.
The best early step is to own multiple houses and move to the second home, keeping an eye on the first. Much easier said than done.
As for UFO’s and aliens, I never personally witnessed any strange phenomena like that, but I do believe it exists.
It’s also very likely aliens are not aboard such UAP craft, being piloted as ‘unmanned’ (relatively speaking) drones similar to what we use today, so it would be impossible to prove aliens’ existence without going to their home area or they purposely land here to show themselves.
I have encountered some rather tiresome sketchy humanoids, over my 75 years, usually quite visible because they seem to have an obsessive need to win to view themselves as always right, but no aliens, yet, Guru… (: I suppose we cannot give carte blanche to miitary pilots who claim that nothing of the UFO’s they have videoed exist in domestic nor foreign arsenal inventories, because if the USA does have the technology they just might want to keep it under wraps.
Despite having had some interesting experiences my feet remain firmly wrapped in the reality realm. Magical thinking is for the club I don’t belong to, while I try to remainin reasonably open minded.
Democracy Now, ” Associated Press fires Jewish reporter for her pro Palestinian sentiments.”
She, Emily Wilder, was dismissed for, ” bias,” but she maintains that her, ” bias,” was not supported by details. She maintains that she is only pro truth and will not allow her ethic to be violated.
Phil,
I am not an expert at all, I think the actual president of the Palestinians is Abbas, and I seem to remember he is not entirely on the side of Hamas.
also I heard today on the news Hamas, the group with the rockets, is heavily sponsored by some Arabian (Saudi?) country, forgot which one.
you seem to make a good point that both sides, Israel and Palestine, might be better off with more moderate leaders who are willing to look for agreements and compromises.
the true victims on both sides are the innocent civilians and their families who are hurt or killed in the fights.
M
Margaret,
Hamas, which runs Gaza, is supported and funded by Iran, and is considered a terrorist organization. That’s not ideal.
I don’t have a lion in this race, but,
” Hamas is not considered a terrorist organization by Brazil, China, Egypt, Iran, Norway, Qatar, Russia, Syria and Turkey. In December 2018, the United Nations General Assembly rejected a U.S. resolution condemning Hamas as a terrorist organization.”
I disagree with you, Daniel. I am not changing the subject. What is an “inconvenient fact” to you, is a “critical fact” to me, because it provides context. And no decision exists outside of a context. Arabs knew that accepting the partition plan would be detrimental for their freedom and self-determination. And freedom and self-determination is something worth fighting for…….wouldn’t you agree?
I have no problem with any of that, just in that segment you shared with the omission of crucial facts. To repeat myself, omitting the facts of the Arab rejection of the partition plan (even if justified), and their starting of war, is inexcusable and makes the whole analysis in the segment of very low quality for anyone wishing to understand the situation over there. I, on the other hand, do not shy away from inconvenient facts, as you’re implying here.
Entering the facts of the Tulsa massacre of financially and socially thriving Black Americans, or the Wounded Knee massacre, both small in the scale of total settler, military, and police, slaughters, isn’t a necessary prerequisite to knowing that bullying and slaughtering aren’t nice, indefensible. The USA is still a colonizer and occupier. I laughed when Trump said he had,” talked with the President of the US Virgin Islands. Canada through approving the licensure of domestic and foreign natural resources extractors continues to participate in buying off leaders and the bullying and killing of indigenous peoples by the mercenary forces trained in our militaries.
IMHO, brandishing the biggest, ” gun,” today, only stimulates the other to try to acquire an even bigger ,” gun.”
How does that paradigm ever get replaced. Maybe it cannot… How horribly sad is that, that some peoples are birthing babies to serve as target practice, canon fodder…
Sorry guys, before we continue to Andromeda let me make a quick stop back on earth.
This gets better and better. In the Geraldo clip Renée linked to, the commentator David Doel displayed some maps which he got off MSNBC, presumably depicting “Palestinian loss of land 1946-present”. Here they are (from the clip):
Something looked very odd in those maps. They seemed far from the geographic and demographic reality I was familiar with. So, I looked into the matter and lo and behold those maps, in MSNBC’s understatement, were “not factually accurate and we regret using them”:
In other words, David Doel omitted crucial facts that would run against his analysis, and displayed non-factual maps to promote it. Whether Mr. Doel is clueless or simply dishonest, his clips influence those who don’t know any better, increasing their anger and hate. His conduct is contemptible and analysis obviously rubbish.
Unfortunately, such faulty, clueless or misleading attitudes are wide-spread:
The incident with the wrong maps looks like its from 2015; so it’s not news. But either are aliens, as we haven’t proven they’re out there.
The fact that the maps are from 2015 makes it worse, because those are the maps he used even though MSNBC rescinded them six years ago – surely enough time for him to get the picture.
Man, you trigger me, Daniel; your obsessiion with winning the diatribe, I’m not a fan of David Doel’s delivery, but that’ a pretty nasty piece of kit you trot out against all comers who oppose your proselytizing version of the truth. He does not have a reputation consistent withm your appraisal. Does he have the experiience to do the analysis ? Questionable. But his fortitude and honesty I cannot find hard facts to call into disrepute. And you’re a hound for hard facts, rather, your facts.
David Doel, a former Green Party, Canada, candidate, ran afoul of some critics who identify on line as Democrats who like right leaning, war hawk, anti Muslim, anti immigration, Democrat,Tulsi Gabbard , ( her speeches,) with his unequivocal unabashed support / adoration for Bernie Sanders, ( who is critical of and mistrusts Tulsi, ( his interviews,) and for Elizabeth Warren, who that band of naysayers paint both Bernie and Elizabeth as communists, and less intelligent than Tulsi or Trump. I think I’d have to go way down the worm hole to find a lower life form than Donald Trump, or less a kind shoulder for fellow humans than Tulsi verbalizes.
I’ll leave it to you to set my wrong dishonest thinking straight.
Although this all might seem to you like a complete waste of time, when it’s something I care about I will not stand by when extreme, ill-disposed minds publically manipulate evidence to fit their similarly extreme, ill-minded politics and attract other vulnerable people to their cause.
All this Israel/Palestine talk does have echoes, or parallels, to my predatory neighborhood situation. I’m living on what is considered ‘sacred land’ to them which would fulfill them emotionally, make their lives complete, and make their avaricious daddy happy and proud once they rejoin him in Heaven. Never mind some inconvenient shit from the Tenth Commandment of the Bible, “Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor’s house…”
i didn’t become a psycho killer in the classical sense or murdering people in hot blood. donald trump took over that mantle. but i do have that killer in me. i am full of rage and have bequethed it to my poor kids and wife. but the classical killer might have gotten his start by feeling his mother’s fears while still in her uterus. her fear from living day to day with her nutcase husband. i had this thought while listening to this song. the intensity and tone perfectly embodies those feelings of insanity. if mom stuck around this brutal man AFTER THE ALREADY SCARED CHILD WAS BORN, then the kid got a day-after-day dosage of brutality which turned him into a pycho killer. i am saying this because i might have felt my own mom’s feelings while i was still in the womb, which were mostly sadness since my dad had died while i was still in utero. and then later in ,my childhood, i only had to suffer short times of living with a brutal man. so i didn’t turn out to be a classical killer. i would put this into mkore concise words but i got to go sing happy birthday to my 39 year old son. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmmvtX0IUHU Talking Heads – Psycho Killer – 1977
frigging germans. sure they got some good tunes, but they are pretty much the typical psycho killers. my grandmother, who raised me, was born of 2 germans. her rage was real and it got into me. of course losing your husband and daughter (my mom) to life’s vagaries was icing on the cake for making her mad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYzrebL11Is Patricia JANEČKOVÁ: “Frühlingsstimmen”. but don’t think i am not aware that human beings, no matter what race, are inherently pycho killers. ask any chicken, cow, pig, lamb…
frigging germans. so intense. they even infected the austrians. iana Damrau sings Mozart’s “Queen of the Night” aria https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJJW0dE5GF0 just kidding.
frigging scotts and irish. i don’t know if they are psycho killers, but sometimes they feel the need to go outdoors and sing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eanMXOq4nYQ he Beatles – Rooftop Concert (1969). ok my fun is over, now i go watch firehouse and medical shows with barb. i cant beleive we did not find grey’s anatomy until this late in life. some of these shows do bring up feelings in me.
commercial break. frigging palestinians. they just couldnt keep their rockets sheathed. so what if the world thinks of them as less than bugs. i am kinder to the bugs in my cupboards than the world is to the palestinians.
Otto, no disrespect or confrontation intended, but this is one of those rare moments I have to speak out in disagreement with you. I think the Palestinians have had GIGATONS of favorable press by worldwide media. Sure, some Zionist sympathizers are giving them a hard time, but their cause certainly hasn’t been ignored by any stretch of the human imagination and they generally seem to have been the recipients of a low-level lovefest overall, at least from what I’ve seen.
May 28, 2021
To OTTO, superguru and all interested parties:
Re: the most recent Israeli-Palestinian conflict
Maybe it is the hurt inside; the hurt child. You know. That “Feeling Child” of which A. Janov spoke.
Look. I’m not holding short-term hope that the parties involved will get it, of course.
But, isn’t it true that within the human psyche is an unfathomable, shall we say, “force”?
Did not Dr. Janov speak of “denied power”?
Might it be not such a bad idea for us all to “remember” to drop a name (“Remember” John Lennon, 1970, on his experiences in Primal Therapy)?
Did that feeling, hurt, ignored, grieving child go away? I think not.
That child has much to say if allowed and those words are tinged with profound heartbreak and loneliness.
I dare say we’ve all wandered maybe a tad from our “idealism” after reading a couple or three of Janov’s books (I’m NOT saying Janov is my guru ‘cuz he ain’t). But isn’t there no time like the present to “get back” to drop another name (“Get Back” the Beatles by Paul McCartney, 1969 with the Beatles).
I would posit that if we cried more, there’d be less war, to drop another name (Arthur Janov, Phd). I’m POSTIVE that young 9-11 year old Palestinian and Israeli lads; that if they were playing soccer together, some on each team; that they’d be laughing, yelling with glee or maybe a bit of disappointment at themselves but they’d be having fun; and “fun is the one thing that money can’t buy”, to drop another name (The Beatles from “She’s Leaving Home”, “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts’ Club Band, 1967).
I would posit that that Feeling Child, he or she never went away. He or she is hanging on to hope that some day the adult self will allow him or her to voice his or her pain.
As far as ways to expedite and facilitate more true feeling primals, that originate from the present moment; in the past I’ve proffered some my humble ideas but might re-phrase them in the near future.
For all on this blog though and others in primal-type therapies (aka regressive), from my albeit limited experience, I’d counsel to actually “seek” sadness. That isn’t the same as suffering, quite the opposite really. With in our profound (largely) inner lamentation is the plaintive feeling child waiting, waiting waiting (and TIRED of acting out). When that inner child gives up hope, death ensues.
Wow Fred, you’ve been away from the blog a long time. Where’ve you been? Have you been reveling in the sensory delights of a wide variety of exclusive, celebrity-filled parties to which we’ve not been invited to and pointedly excluded from?
June 13, 2021
Thanks for caring. I can tell you’re a nice guy and probably relatively successful monetarily.
Your soul is GOOD.
In short, I’ve been having multiple primals per day. It’s my lot in life, obviously “triggered” by the death of my wife.
I’ve come around to the belief that mankind is a brokenhearted race because, within him (or her) there is fittingly a, for lack of a better term, “Primal Grief”, to pay the Janovian game.
Maybe in my cosmology, “Primal Grief” (aka as the grief of the soul) trumps “Primal Pain”.
The conditions of our life, that is the circumstances in which we were faced upon birth, are anything but accidental.
There is an intimate cause-and-effect relationship between the grief of the soul and probable events.
Happiness basically is a fool’s errand, barely a plateau on which possibly we catch our breaths.
Possibly I will do one of my “channeling Arthur Janov” sessions later.
Fred, what year did you enter PT. Reflecting my small village brain, I knew a, ” Fred,” from NY in 86/87.
if all goes well a recent picture of me and my mom here, as you can see, in a kind of spring still requiring warm clothing here…
M
Lovely really.
Wonderful picture, Margaret. You can see the warmth between you two. Thank you for sharing.
S
Your picture tipped me into a primal, Margaret. I can’t imagine feeling comfortable in such a nice pose with my Mother. There is just a vast desert of empty space between her and I.
You wanna trade places with me, Larry?
OK, this is one area where I really lost control of things. Not Margaret’s picture, but last night I somehow I ended up drinking 750 Ml of wine and an entire 1.5 quart bucket of ice cream. Highly destructive for my health, and not understanding the impulse which led me to it.
I don’t understand what part of me was screaming for “help” or “mercy!” enough for me to do what I did.
I’m retracing my steps and I wouldn’t have even asked Larry my question if I hadn’t binged.
I’m flummoxed and embarrassed.
That was super dangerous for my blood sugar..all that wine and 1.5 quarts of ice cream packed with refined sugar….just no no no! All downed in one self-destructive sitting.
I should clarify I’m not a known diabetic…but that just wasn’t good for me to do. Some self-destructive, self-loathing beast took over. Please go away beast.
As they say at high school football games here in the United States after the other team scored or our team fumbled–at least back in the mid-1960s: “That’s all right. That’s okay. We still love you anyway”. But how did you stay awake, for crying out loud? (Is “crying out loud the same as a primal?)
Guru,
I can relate to this. Sometimes I need to gorge myself on some snacks I like, such as
popcorn with butter or oil, which isn’t so healthy. But OK once in a while. Sometimes after a hard day or week. I did it last night, while reading the Obama book. I need two things, the popcorn and a good book to curl up with.
Phil, I’ve made popcorn with oil and gorged on it many times. That doesn’t bother me. Last night’s activities were much more risky and perturbing to me.
Overdoing alcohol along with enormous amounts of sugar consumption is much more self-destructive.
I need a large cadre of obsequious followers who will never give up on me under any trying circumstance. That will help build my sense of self-importance, surely.
As the only superstar guru we have on the blog, you are very important. I hope you can avoid anymore alcohol binges, as I agree, they’re unhealthy, and it looks like they make you feel bad afterwards.
Sounds like you were hurting awfully to the point of suffering, guru, and needed to get relief, in the safest way you could think of. Based on my own experience I know in general how that feels, although I can’t know how you specifically felt in that situation. Just trying to imagine being in that state right now hurts me. I guess I have a bit of my own suffering going on at the moment. Despite the fullness and richness of being in a new relationship, these days I feel more deeply the emptiness that’s been a big part of my life. COVID isolation doesn’t help.
Well that’s nice to hear of your empathy, Larry. I stubbed my second-smallest toe during this episode to where there is a small purplish discoloration. I’m hoping it will heal soon even if it’s a fracture.
I haven’t had health insurance in any public or private form since April of 1990, so I have to be extremely careful. I’ve been uninsured for longer than my mother’s entire lifespan.
I probably agreed with Jack’s idea of money being a sick joke more than I realized. His grating arrogance about Janov and irritating he could be at times dissuaded me from making a more earnest attempt at buddying, though he did have his endearing qualities. That’s sadly all in the past and I don’t know what more I can say.
This is such a beautiful picture of you and your mom, Margaret! I agree with Sylvia…..the warmth between the two of you is so evident.
Wonderful picture, Margaret.
Margaret, it’s a great picture! You and your mother are matching with the flowers.
Phil
ha, thanks Phil!
two elderly flowers in front of the real spring flowers…\
I had NO idea you were so regal and a bit of a fox too. OMG. I’m smitten. A good English girl is GREAT.
I happened to read this today, and it seems sensible:
I agree and this is the solution I support.
I disagree with the writer that the religious aspect of the conflict is new. Secular people, children of the Enlightenment who believe in reason, often feel such conflicts can be solved with business-like mechanisms, and therefore believe in business jargon: “negotiations”, “a broker”, “an intermediary” etc. I’m not saying they can’t be solved by such mechanisms, and I hope they would be, just that this isn’t always the case. Trying to remove the religious or non-rational aspect of the conflict is an attempt to do away with the inconvenience of those realities.
As for negotiations, Margaret mentioned the Palestinian Authority’s president, Mahmud Abbas who heads the Palestine Liberation Organisation who, unlike Hamas, signed treaties with Israel. Unlike his predecessor, Yassir Arafat, Abbas is not a terrorist and is committed to non-violent ways of solving the conflict.
Unfortunately, Israel’s strategy in the past 12 years (the Netanyahu years) has been more or less to disregard Abbas. Israel capitalised on the rift within the Palestinian movement, between the PLO in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza. Unable to come up with a united plan on how to move forward, that split weakened the Palestinians and brought them in the Trump years to one of their lowest points ever.
Since Netanyahu and his right-wing government were unwilling any substantial concessions, which they knew will be coming if a deal is to be negotiated, their strategy was to marginalise Abbas politically while cooperating with him economically and on security issues. If there is no violence there is no reason to speak with the Palestinians, they said to themselves, and when there is violence, we mustn’t speak to them because “we should never cave-in to violence”.
For quite some time this strategy seemed successful, as both Israel and the Palestinians had the least violent decade in their history, with the fewest casualties ever. Neither did it prevent other Arab states from recognising and signing normalisation deals with Israel. For a moment there it looked as if Israel could have its cake and eat it too.
It now looks as if that Israeli strategy has suffered a blow, which is why the Palestinians, in my opinion, won this last round. And rightly so. Although I understand the logic of it, and although I’m not sure a deal can even be reached, I think that unofficial policy was short-sighted. Instead of strengthening the moderates among Palestinians it strengthened the violent extremists and sort of proved to the Palestinians that only violence can do the job. In a way, Netanyahu and his extremist partners in government had an unsigned pact with Hamas to keep it alive – as long as Israel confronts an enemy that doesn’t recognise it or wants to talk with it then it can keep pretending Palestinians do not want to talk.
Israel needs a new strategy. It should return to negotiations with Abbas and show the Palestinians that talks can actually deliver achievements for them. There are a lot of forces that run against it – the Palestinians are still split and currently Israel doesn’t have the leadership that is able to pull it through.
WHOA !!! an WOW !!! reading this, with post, with much egg on my face, I mistook you for a recalcitrant ,’ whatever Israel does is ok,” zealot. I too stand on the position that whatever the past that may serve to explain the current situation, the best ingredients for resolution is what is needed. I do take issue with your ascertion that I was being dishonest in my postings. The material I related to was on Youtube, major networks offerings, including Senator Bernie Sanders, the UN spokesperson, and Sec of State Blinkin. I have believed,
‘ Democracy Now,’ to be balanced, and unafraid to air interviews I did not see elsewhere.
My knowledge of the plight of my indigenous family, ancestors and current survivors makes me quick to expect, and accept, reports of inhuman behaviour of bullying political powerhouses. And to scream, ” FOUL,” quickly and loudly. Our indigenous peoples have been quick to cow down and accept colonization as a matter of fate. Their religious indoctrination cultivated their passivity. When a particular tribe, such as the Oka Mohawk at Kanesatake, decided to resist members of other tribes would become uneasy as if they were in the wrong, and tempting the wrath of, the Christian God with His duality of Love and Vengeance, the State and Whites.
I clearly misjudged your position. I was wrong and apologize for that aspect of what I voiced.
David,
I wrote many times here that I’m very critical of Israel’s policies. I will not shy away from the grim realities created by the establishment of Israel and the ongoing conflict in the region, from the Nakba, or from inequalities in present-day Israel.
I will, however, demand the same from anybody else. The Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular made many mistakes, were extremely violent, while most of the time refuse to take any kind of responsibility for their actions.
And I demand the same from anyone reporting about the situation in the conflict. All I ask is fair-minded reporting.
This morning, this is what brought tears to my eyes. It is Brene Brown reading her “Parenting Manifesto”. She lays out what children need in 2 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHI5qEtomA. It can’t get clearer than this, even though it’s often easier said than done.
I recall a post in the Primal Newsletter of years past, a mom sharing
how she responded to her children expressing their displeasure when she had to cancel a planned/promised outing. It triggered in them history of broken promises during her pre Primal period of parenting, and her refusal to allow them to hold her accountable. In the instance she wrote about she shared how she allowed them to vent their anger including accusations without retort. At the end she held to the need to reschedule the outing and a promise that it would happen.
That had a profound effect on me, reflection on my mother’s erratic parenting and my own mistakes. Lots of tears.
Another interesting article: “The Myth of Coexistence in Israel”.
I didn’t mean to post this twice. On my phone it didn’t look like it went through. It’s worth reading at least once.
Here are some points Diana Buttu didn’t think are important enough to mention:
Diana heard of an Arab who was pulled out of his car and beaten, but not of Israeli Jews who suffered the exact same fate, several of whom were severely injured, and one died. Nor has she heard of Molotov cocktails being thrown into Jewish homes, of hundreds of cars and ten (not one) synagogue set on fire.
Diana hears many Israeli politicians who speak against Arabs, but apparently was is always in the bathroom when countless Arab leaders, in Israel and elsewhere, speak against Jews.
Diana makes it sound as if she and her parents have suffered years of oppression, to the point that her father “still waits for the day when he does not have to live in fear that we will be evicted from our homeland”. Really? I didn’t know they suffered that much in Canada, where Diana parents emigrated and where she was born, raised, and schooled.
Diana mentions not a word about her father’s parents or their friends starting a war against the Jews in Israel killing some 6,000 of them – about 1% of the total Jewish population at the time. (The equivalent number of dead in the USA today would be 3.3 million). In fact, people from Mujaydil, the village her father came from, planted mines on some of the roads in the area. When one Menachem Goldstein who drove on one of these roads was badly wounded by one of them exploding, the Mujaydil villagers dragged him to the village where they savagely tortured him to death. His body was found in a well a month later.
Finally, Diana offers no solution, but one can sense that a two-state solution is not for her. She is for absolute justice – her kind of justice of course – no matter how much blood will be spilled.
Daniel, that is some interesting additional information to go along with this opinion piece. I wonder, what do you think is the right solution to this conflict, or the one which will eventually work? Or is it destined to be forever unsolvable? What has to change to make a solution possible?
I watched a video of a man pulled fom his car and beaten what appeared to be severely; fists, feet, sticks, by Israeli’s who then discovered that their victim was also an Israeli unknown to them, and proceeded to tend to him. Clearly there is violence on both sides. I have watched numerous citizen and professional Israeli’s interviewed who have a Pro Palestinian bent, including two MD’s, one a Pediatician, who were mightily fearful of reprisal for treating Palestinians. I am also informed by the violence in Canada against Black, Brown, immigrants and Indigenous Peoples by settler descendents and law enforcement. First Nations Peoples were, into modern times, locked down on their reserves, requiring written permission to leave reserves for appointments and groceries. Even now every building on my local reserve is GPS’d by federal land surveryors and an explanation for it’s use requested. And the have no uprising history. THey are so passsive it raises my hackles. When women armed with Eagle feathers protested against fracking in Rexton New Brunswick a few years back they were met with a huge RCMP and Tactical Squad response with weapons leveled at them, some members jeering and mocking them. The Camouflaged anti terrorist UNIT was hiding in the bush, armed for war. White allies present and interviewed were of the opinion that their presence had suppressed tactics that might well have otherwise been employed. Only in recent years has a White Ally response been sounding the , ” enough is enough,” bell. This week child remains, unregistered deaths and unmarked graves of missing children, at a Kamloops BC Catholic Indian Residentials School. More than 130 such REIGLIOUS schools remain to have there properties inventoried by electronic imaging. St. Anne’s Indian Residential School was run by the Catholic orders of the Oblates of Mary Immaculate and the Grey Sisters of the Cross from 1902 until 1976. Indigenous children from Fort Albany First Nation in northern Ontario were sexually abused, punished by shocks delivered in electric chairs and forced to eat their own vomit. For punishment and for the entertainment of senior male and female clerics and their guests. In the US large Black militias are being formed. Members I watched interviewed were all professional men and women, tired, they said, of being vulnerable unarmed targets. The unbelieveable number of mass shootings since Jan 6, 2021 is, for me, beyond alarming and saddening.
So WHEN is ENOUGH ? Enough of our sordid savage past still controlling the present ? Enough of the mighty, more politically and weaponized powerful eaining down control and terror on the weaker ? Instead of rehashing the various personal versions of the historical causes and currrent infractions, what is the best approach for resolution? If the UN is impotent does it need to be rejigged ? Does there need to be a world authority to draw indisputatble boundries and enforce codes of conduct ? I do know that when a mere child of 12 can have his bicycle knocked over by an occupier’s miitary vehicle, and lay on the ground injured under the gaze of weapon holding soldiers who emerge from the vehicle and that a civilian from the, ” opposite side,” has to call an ambulance because the soldiers refuse, there is a problem. His reason for being pursued ? His country flag, attached to the bicycle whie riding to the store, in his country. But that is just my opinion. I’m sure it can be rationalized and justified. I just don’t want to be part of that crowd.
The great John James Audubon an American ornithologist, naturalist, painter, and author, is reported in a doc on his life to have had a dark side. Reportedly, and it is documented therein that, he would have the hind leg tendons of captured wolves severed rendering them unable to defend themselves so that his fighting dogs could slaughter them for the entertainment of his guests. If I was a cognitive wolf I’d have both thoughts and feelins about that. Might even bite a few humans. And yet, to the best of my knowledge, the, ” Audubon Society,” continues as a dedication in honour of his reverence for natural life. To the conquisitor belongs the sole rites to spin the yarn.
I can’t read the NYT article, as I don’t subscribe. But I have been reading some of the war news, and was getting some sense of “Israel being to blame”, until I came across this Atlantic piece, although from 2014, I found it illuminating, regarding media bias and distortion. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/11/how-the-media-makes-the-israel-story/383262/
Vicki, this is interesting about misinformation caused by bad press coverage and/or how it’s manipulated. I find it hard to come to any firm conclusions on the Palestinian – Israel conflict, and this is another good reason. You should be able to read a few NYTs articles daily with a free account, or with the private mode on your web browser you can read all you want. That works for the Washington Post too.
thanks all for your nice reactions.
i regret not being able to see the faces myself anymore, but I remember how it was to stand there with her and how easy to smile…
I do remember how more than 25 years ago, when i was walking with her, still seeing well, we met a girlfriend with her mom, who was an old friend of my mom.
I remember how I was fascinated with the pleasant easiness with which the daughter joked and talked with her mom, like old time friends, and caught myself almost enviously spying how she ‘did’ it…
I feel so lucky that during my therapy years this kind of relationship also became natural to me and my mom…
i feel so very grateful about it….
M
Fred,
ha, regal, and a fox!
two intriguing compliments, what are the characteristics to be called a few?
and rega., haha, that is the last adjective I would ever have expected, but I really do like it, it seems to implicate some kind of self confidence or dignity, or at least the etxternal appearance of it.
m
some corrections made
Fred,
ha, regal, and a fox!
two intriguing compliments, what are the characteristics to be called a fox?
and regal., haha, that is the last adjective I would ever have expected, but I really do like it, it seems to implicate some kind of self confidence or dignity, or at least the external appearance of it.
m
Daniel, I see you already addressed some of my questions.
In the past, some on the blog have said it was racial slavery which contributed to the size and grandeur of America today, I strongly disagree. It has been automotive technology, not slavery.
Humans can sustain 1.2 horsepower briefly and only 0.1 horsepower indefinitely, so I will give this an average of 0.5 horsepower for purposes of my calculations.
With a total of 25 million slaves from 1776-1860 being assigned 2 horsepower each (I am being VERY generous for hard workers!), this would provide 50 million horsepower for America.
What would America’s 276 million automobiles each providing an average of 150 horsepower per vehicle add up to? 41,400,000,000 horsepower. That’s 41 billion 400 million horsepower for America, which is more than EIGHT HUNDRED TIMES the horsepower provided by the entire slave population of America.
I should rephrase my first sentence as “….some on the blog have said it was racial slavery which contributed the greatest percentage to the size and grandeur of America today.”
Some of the calculations I made above were extremely conservative AGAINST my own arguments, as well, and I think it could be reasonably argued that automotive technology has contributed well over a thousand times as much horsepower to America’s economy than its entire historical slave population.
Do I think it’s morally wrong to enslave people? OF COURSE it’s morally wrong! I also think it’s morally wrong to overlook the 40,000 lives extinguished each year along with 1 million injuries (some permanent and critical) brought on each year by an amazing technology that has provided America untold wealth and horsepower, the automobile.
Guru,
Do you mean the size of the country? Or the size of the US economy? Of course the continent was already here, so none of us contributed to it’s size, now or in the past.
If you mean the economy, then slavery had a lot to do with that: cotton, tobacco, and sugar were produced by slaves, for example,, and traded on the world market, long before cars were invented, that’s how the US economy developed.
https://www.vox.com/identities/2019/8/16/20806069/slavery-economy-capitalism-violence-cotton-edward-baptist
I’m talking about the size…in terms of population. Without mechanized vehicles we would be back in the stone ages…all agricultural crops included, existing in a much more rudimentary form even if slavery was still in force today.
Sheer, raw horsepower is the name of the game.
If I buy a 2021 Toyota Camry, I can expect 201 horsepower from the engine which is equivalent to 100 hard-working slaves pushing me along at 2 horsepower each.
Guru,
China already had a population of about 330 million in the year 1800, long before industrialization. and apparently had no problem achieving that without cars.
Here’s an interesting fact I found: “In China there is roughly one vehicle for 28 people, roughly the same rate as the United States in 1915.”
I think a lot of that has to do with early agrarian societies needing lots of kids working on the farm. Many died of disease, so rampant breeding was encouraged to compensate for that.
Instead of population as I mentioned before, I should have referred to a society with a high HDI (Human Development Index) with all its modern accoutrements such as construction materials being shuffled around on massive locomotives and big trailer trucks hauling 80,000 pounds at a time. No human slave labor can remotely compete with the demands of that.
Guru, slavery in other forms continued in this country long after it was officially abolished, and exploitation of people continues to this day. That’s capitalism.
What irritated me was seeing this nascent movement about slave reparations. While I agree that no one should be enslaved I certainly didn’t enslave anybody, why should I pay reparations? If we as a society are going to travel down this logical rabbit hole, how about society paying reparations towards those who pay a catastrophic bodily price as a result of cars and mechanized horsepower enriching society to an unfathomably great degree? If we cannot do both, I say we do none at all.
Guru, I hope you can get some reparations too, but I’m not seeing how that would happen.
Sometimes it feels as though everybody receives help from society BUT me. Unlike most people COVID was actually a blessing for me since isolation is not too psychologically debilitating for me, and it was the first time I ever received free money from the government.
That would be to suggest that slavery ever ended in The USA. Slave ownership simply shifted from the plantation masters to the political masters, where the cruelty heightened. Slave maters were not extended the courtesy of committing homicide against their herd at a whim. Legislation, or the lack of it, governing Prisons, law enforcement, and, ” Stand Your Ground,” legislation gifted the murder folks of colour solution without just cause to the entire white race. And laughable justification for locking up Black folks for the silliest of infractions, such as accusation of spitting on the ground, not yielding a wide enough swath of the pathway to whites, not to mention judges being paid for convictions and indeterminate sentences, provided a reliable slave supply. Plantation slavery abolition was not enforced until the maga prisons had been built, by slaves, with Northern Capital and materials, to house and control the Black and Browns, mainly Black, slave population. As with Indigenous Peoples and other, ‘ undesireables,’ such as heroes of hope rising from enough is enough political movements gaining too much influence can be castrated. Popuation control can be managed through the prison system. Another manage the opposition measure.
We get mightily and high and mightiy offended and critical, even concerned, when China or Russia, some other political power we disdain, locks away the possible hope for a better tomorrow. But we are just as high and mightily silent when the locking away serves us, our dieties, and our self interest.
Hey everyone.
Getting my second Covid shot on June 7th. with Leslie a day or two behind. Yay 🙂
Who knows, we soon may be able to fly to a space near you, and you, and you, and you, (you know who you are!) – right after we see our son in Zurich. It’s really been too long, and I personally can’t wait.
Barry
Just reading that an Italian aritist recently sold a sculpture, titled,
” I AM,” for $ 18,000.00, USD. The defining description, or perhaps, lack of definition is, ” it is invisiible.” It showed the pedestal on which it does or does not stand, Well I guess that’s debateable, dependending on how much evidence each individual requires in order to reach a fact based decision. It did not gives the delivery details….
Sort of the financial version of ‘The King has no clothes!’ ??
Barry
HEY, Barry, let’s design an invisible wardrobe for, ” I AM,” the critics be damned…. or an invisible electric vehicle…. TESLA and a few other big auto makers are I heard on CBC News ,” petitioning,” is the term I heard, the UN for the creation of an international policy that will permit only autodriven vehicles on future highways…. “Future Shock,” ?? Abundant Caveman brained people, AI, and the self appointed intelligencia deluded, coexisiting…oughta be fun….. (-:
Sorry, I’m more of a round backscratcher type of designer, but you go right ahead David.
Barry
David, the “I AM” sculpture takes conceptual art to a whole new level. I love it!
You may want to check out the for sale inventory I am posting below. For only $ 5000.00, CDN, it’s yours…. (:
I will give you an invisible $5000 for your invisible sale inventory.
If we agree the inventory is there, then it’s there even if we agree that it’s invisible. Besides that, I’m not going to let you get away with buying it so cheaply. I will bid $7,500.
I’ve got Seveny Fife, Seveny Fife, 75,75, 75, 75, Do I hear
$ 10,000.00 ? gmee, gmee, gmee,
$ !0,000,00….. ??
Free shipping in matching invisible gift box….
I think this is touching upon why Jack was saying money was a farcical invention in that it requires a ‘mutually agreed upon verbal voodoo’ between multiple parties. A ‘shared hallucination’, if you will. Cryptocurrencies and NFT’s have brought this more glaringly into focus, as opposed to the old days when barter goods or precious metals provided a tangible sense of value for money.
Of course the huge positive of electronic payments is efficiency. It’s infinitely easier to wire or transfer a few thousand electronic dollars (in whatever currency) than it is to hand over five head of cattle for barter or 50 pounds of physical silver, especially to someone thousands of miles away.
The tradeoff for such amazing efficiency is an increasingly fragile reliance on multiple people agreeing that something stored on a database or ledger, almost purely generated from imaginative thin air, has value.
For all those who thought good education is difficult to obtain, so there.
For my own therapy only, not meant to entertain:
Talking to my dad at any old casual time gave me crisply refreshing nodules of subtly mischievous happiness. For lack of a better way to describe it, settling down for a casual conversation with him was the sensorial equivalent to having a crisply refreshing bottle of ginger ale or Seven-Up. Everything is so bleak and depressingly degraded knowing I will never experience that again.
It pains me greatly thinking of all the completely undeserved stress he was under, especially during his final year of life after the cancer diagnosis, and how I couldn’t make everything better for him.
I know I’ve said this before many times on the blog, just a morose feeling I’m stuck with overall.
Panicked in the valley, pretty valley Saturday
Cool perfect, probably a scorcher later
(thanks henry ford and friends for killing the glaciers)
Too many thoughts…
The Turkish cat was going to cost more vet $ but finally shat
A day by day, these days
White cat howls and finds new places to sleep—why?
Because hot days now? Kid flew in from ohio to escape my other son, now a hopeless drunk?
Flew-in kid still talk crazy but making progress with E the therapist
He went to hotel because our house too dirty
He snuck away to crawl in window of estranged wife’s apartment to get key to his truck, not the careful plan we had all agreed on
Went to work, didn’t want to go, not sure if feeling lowdown, actually felt cool (change of pace)
Headed for home, after a while, didn’t really feel cool (because of cat and kids.)
These cats could speak English but will only use their body language
Unlucky me because I was always bad at body stuff
If I think a while, I forget what I was thinking about…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjb9AxDkwAQ Good Morning Good Morning (Remastered 2009)
and so, some tears. still in the feeling game…
and then, primalus interruptus–” caN YOU CLEANOUT THE SHOWER SO i can take a shower and then can YOU CAN DRIVE ME OVER TO GET MY MASSAGE?” FUCK–FIRST BIG CRY I HAVE HAD IN MANY MANY MOONS
and that primal not coming back 40 fucking years of this shit with her
MY IMPATIENT SPIRIT
Before I died
I took pride
In my patient spirit
I assumed it would
Stay with me
After I died
Sadly
I was wrong
I don’t know what happened
Now I’m stuck
With an impatient spirit
For all eternity
Had I known this would happen
I would’ve appreciated
My patient spirit
Far more
When I was alive
If we don’t live and learn
We die and learn
When its too late
OK i keep it to myself. or not. wife gets more and more impossible to be around. she does not accept me telling her that her cat is maybe not doing so well. HER CAT, that i told her no more cats because the vet costs a thousand dollars just to walk in the door, and then you end up watching them die anyway. HER CAT, that i have had to encamp into my bedroom for weeks now, to make sure she craps every day. our youngest son has been here 1/2 a week, and she has become more combative with me. that is how it was when we were raising the 2 kids. i took her for our weekend drive through santa monica yesterday and we ended up driving elsewhere, due to traffic. more like ocean park, mar vista, venice streets. streets that i would travel to the laundromat every weekend to wash all of our clothes when we lived in marina del rey/culver city. streets i would drive the younger kid to school, and me to work, with the backdrop being his older brother had become a real shit, and of course i am in horror and guilt that that happened to him via me and barb. maybe mostly me. the horror of that chapter of out lives courses through our brains ever day. or at least my brain. older kid, we just found out from the younger one, has gone back to being a drunk every night in ohio. anyway, barb and kid went to ikea just now. no freedom for me as i have already pushed down my feelings with a ton of food and this friggin valley is now hot for the next 6 months at least. i bought a fan that should have been easy to put together but some nimrod left out a piece. the temporary guy at work tomorrow will say his inevitable Happy Monday,on teams and i just say ‘morning’ on teams, and i say gfy to myself. i could never be able to get this out in zoom group; i have gotten out similar pieces of my crap life in real group and gone off to cry. short life and a merry one.
I ask that you folks watch this Democracy Now presentation. The Israeli soldier or police, little short guy, mustache, with a huge attitude emphasizing his big gun; I’ve seen him in various other displays of violence, including being one of the shooters in the Mosque episode I wrote about. And Police were filmed changing into civilian clothes and joining violent settlers attacks on Palestinians. And yes, unless these Palestinian worshippers shot themselves in their faces, it was committed by some 3r party. I watched the event and saw the bloody faces of stretchered victims. The Al Jezeera journalist, in this video, clearly so identified by her vest, was badly beaten by Police; her hand was broken, her cameraman was beaten and all video equipment was smashed. But here Amy Goodman, Democracy NOW, conducts the interviews:
I had no idea of the horrible grief and loss that Alex is going through until yesterday.
I am not going to go on any self-hate campaign, but certainly memories of his childhood years are reminding me why he is like he is, and my role in it.
Maybe i realize his pain now only because he has been here in person and I have listened to his autistic and angry self to the best of my feeble abilities.
Of course, I have ignored him (to my utter dismay, once I realized it) most of the short time he has been here with us.
He won’t stay with us because we have cockroaches, and has stayed in motels, and now is going to stay at his aunt’s.
No self-hate. Just self-realization as to what has happened to my kids as a result of me.
His brother is now a drunk again, and I am at a total loss as to what I can do to help, as if I could actually bring my careless butt to give a shit about anyone except me and these stupid fucking cats and bugs.
If anyone here is interested in growing in their racial awareness and understanding of racialized trauma, both intellectually and emotionally, take a look at this. It is a conversation between Gabor Mate and Resmaa Menakem. I saw this last night and experienced my mind being blown in profound ways. See if has the same impact on you: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PrRa8tIs6tg. (Hopefully you’ll be able to access it.)
I watched this video from beginning to end and the word “dreck” comes to mind: pure trash. That someone could watch this and think there was anything substantive or meaningful is stunning. Menakem shows no insight into human psychology, human nature, or history and strikes me as a deeply resentful and manipulative human being. The fact that Mate and the other two ding dongs were listening with baited breath, all the while smiling, was cringe beyond belief and made it hard to watch.
It won’t let me watch, it says the video is private. What’s it’s title?
Not sure why but the owner set it to private. Let me summarize for your convenience Phil and save you 90 minutes of your life. His “theory” it is quite simple: “white” bodies (his term) are monstrous racists, and always have been. Non-white bodies everywhere and in every time are not and have been victims of the monstrous whites and suffer from historical trauma caused by “whiteness”. The whites should deal with this by accepting this reality and taking responsibility. Non-whites should deal with it by acknowledging their victimization and their historical trauma at the hands of the whites. No, ifs, ands or buts. If you disagree it is because you are in denial. How convenient. He says, if you are white and listen to him talk about how monstrous the whites are you will start to feel uncomfortable: this is because you are coming to terms with the history of your oppressive whiteness. But I think there are reasons—other than the truth of his claims–of why one would feel uncomfortable: Um, maybe it is not nice to hear someone tell you that you and your whole ancestors are rotten to the core, that would do it. It could be because you disagree with him, or that he is triggering some old feeling that has nothing to do with racism? But not for Menakem: whites are monsters and must come to terms with that. I have never heard of anything so appalling; there actually is no theory: just a very twisted and angry man spouting divine truth that you must accept wholesale. Talk about indoctrination.
Thanks Chris, I was hoping the video was shorter. I still can’t open it from the new link Renee gave us. It brings me to “The Wisdom of Trauma”, which I already watched. I’m interested to see if I’m more in agreement with you or Renee.
I think a problem is racists are unlikely to go for therapy, and if they do, it probably wouldn’t be because of racism.
You’re welcome Phil. Part of my issue with Menakem is his religious-like belief that all “white bodies” are racist. They absolutely are not, and racism is not as prevalent as he thinks it is; some people who have been victims begin to see perpetrators everywhere. There is a delusional and grandiose element to Menakem’s belief system that is disconcerting. And like I wrote earlier, if you disagree with his beliefs, it is because you are racist. It is circular logic: he confuses the psychological defense version of “denial” with plain disagreement. I mostly disagree with him but would not characterize myself as in “denial”. That is so unfair and manipulative. Also, these dippy categories priests like Menakem employ, like “white” and “black” are very amorphous. These are categories that today’s social scientists love to use but I find them to be very untidy for several reasons, but mainly because there is a lot of overlay and variance in terms of how people identify themselves. In plain language, the world is not black and white.
Interesting problem you raise Phil. I am not quite sure I understand what you mean, but I do not see “racism” as a primary diagnosis that someone would see a therapist for. I agree with Larry in that racism is a grander and more articulate form or tribalism. I mean people exhibit and hold preference for their “people” but to what degree these become manifest in illegal or immoral behaviors I am not sure. The question of legality is clear; the question of morality is not so clear. For example: Is a person wrong for wanting the best for their “people”? Moreover, people have all manner of anti-social and socially undesirable attitudes and beliefs. I personally do not feel a need to want to correct them, nor do I even think they need therapy for those undesirable attitudes and beliefs. I suppose part of the argument is that the “system” itself manifests these anti-social and socially undesirable attitudes and beliefs as values. But there are legal structures in place to address these. If there are systems that are “racist” then they can be dealt with on a on a case-to-case basis. And things like standards of intelligence and beauty, can flux and may be unfair, but they must change through vigorous debate not emotional blackmail.
Is the system perfect, no it is not. I am not even sure one would want that. I certainly would not want perfection if it meant that I had to be subject to indoctrination to root out my biases, and bad attitudes. That is what feels like is at the root of crusaders like Menakem, trying to manipulate out what they see as undesirable traits and to shift large groups of people and social systems. That is frightening and reminiscent of the mass social engineering that took place with Hitler and Mao, and we know what that brought.
Chris, I started watching a different video with Menakem called “somatic abolitionism”. It probably covers some of the same material. The book “My Grandmothers hands…” which he wrote, is raved about, but after watching a little of the video, I’m less attracted to reading it. It’s too much for me. I do think racism is a big continuing problem in this country and around the world. It is at the individual level and at the societal level, but Menakem’s theories seem too complex and contrived. I don’t know that it has to be that complex. We also have problems with white supremacy and nationalism, which are related. You might think that the answer is for people to heal at the individual level, and over time our tribes can merge. The problem has been that skin color is such an outstanding marker.
On a personal level I’ve always felt a little confused as to my own tribe. My mother’s side of the family was from Italy, and my father’s was from Hungary. I don’t speak either of those languages, and have been studying Spanish for years. I’ve never been to England, the origin of my 1st language. Therapy has been a process of discovering who I really am. I identify with what Jack used to say about not believing in borders and countries. I’m sure I probably have some biases I’m not really aware of, ones that I don’t embrace. I’m very against the idea of racism and white supremacy etc. It’s probably more helpful to discuss these issues at the personal level. In general, I am in favor of any sensible new policies to combat racism, and violence.
I disagree with you Phil, that racism and white supremacy, are big problems in the US. IN other parts of the world, and pockets here for sure, but not many societies exist on planet Earth that have gone as far as we have in the US to make equality the purpose of the law. Is it perfect? No, but we live in an amazing country.
I love what economist Thomas Sowell Tweeted not long ago, “Racism is not dead, but it is on life support — kept alive by politicians, race hustlers and people who get a sense of superiority by denouncing others as “racists.”” I put Menakem in the category of “race hustler” and he seems to get pleasure in denouncing whites as racists. Sowell also mentioned that there are those “who use it (racism) for an excuse or to keep minority communities fearful or resentful enough to turn out as a voting bloc on election day.” We saw that in the last election.
Instead of watching philistines like Menakem, I recommend this video on the great American philosopher Thomas Sowell.
I used to read Thomas Sowell’s column in Forbes magazine as a teenager. Seems like three lifetimes ago to me now.
he has been around for a while; I think he’s 91, but still very sharp!
Sowell’s a lot more conservative than I am overall, though. From my vague memories a lot of his points were good, others I found myself disagreeing with.
Chris, there seems to be little racism around here where I live, but I wouldn’t experience it, and so wouldn’t know. But, NYC, where I used to live has had numerous racial incidents over the years, police shootings, etc, and the city’s racial profiling policies. The Black Lives Matters movement exists because of this kind of thing. Also, it’s widely known and proven that the judicial system is discriminatory. Even with capital punishments , if you are black, you’re much more likely to be executed, for a similar crime that a white committed. I don’t think we should be executing people at all, it’s very barbaric, and primitive.
Phil, I think you’re missing something here. Things like racial profiling, police shootings, or a discriminatory judicial system are all things you can – and should – correct. However, the current redefinition of racism along Critical Race Theory lines holds that the mere fact that you are white, thus belonging to a group deemed to exert oppression over non-whites, automatically and regardless of your behaviour or your opinions makes you a racist. You’re guilty already. The only thing you may be able to do to partially escape your predicament is to actively be what they call “anti-racist”.
Daniel, I haven’t felt any pressure to be an anti-racist. I am anti racist, so that stuff doesn’t worry me. I haven’t felt threatened by it, and it truly has little support, so I don’t think many laws and rules proposed by critical race theorists are going to go into effect.
Chris, I think Menakem generalizes in a different way, which is what happens in racism. I don’t think I’m in denial either
It won’t let me watch either, not that I had an irresistible desire to. One of the privileges of power, is that those in power (whatever their skin colour or ethnicity) are able to practice racism over other ethnic groups, as a way to preserve their own power. The way I see it, racism is a form of tribalism. That’s been the blight of human kind since the beginning of human time. Nothing new about that in my opinion.
This morning I had some sad feelings, mainly about my mother. I was remembering how my father acted towards her on visits to her nursing home. He showed a lot of consideration and love.
But that’s not what I remember feeling myself. I guess remembering how he behaved helps me connect with a little with similar feelings and how sad it was she was in that place to begin with. Her condition was terrible, that’s why she was there.
I remember her as intimidating, cold, and mean, so I kept my distance. I didn’t want to visit her. My father didn’t seem to be aware of I how I felt, and never addressed it.
Phil
Your comment made me wonder, did your father show you a lot of consideration and love Phil?
Larry, no, my father didn’t show me much love and consideration either. But I seem to have been especially deprived because of my mother. Later today I ended up having big feelings about a great aunt, my grandmother’s sister. My grandmother was also quite cold, in contrast to her sister. I even remember my father commenting on this to me, on how different they were. If I could have exchanged the two I might have been considerably better off. The deprivation around my mother was extreme. She literally shut me out completely and forgot me. Any worse and she would have been a vegetable. Before it got to that point she was just cold and mean. I have to wonder why my mother and father chose each other.
A neighbor from my childhood street contacted me today on Facebook. She just said hi, because I’m in a town group. Her brother used to be my best friend, but we’ve been out of touch since about age 13. I was checking out their profiles, their parents lived to their 90s, only dying a few years ago, and they were around the same age as my parents, who I both lost decades ago. That family appears so normal, mine was so tragic and bizarre, so much turmoil, so much sadness. I guess that’s why I’m in my 60’s still struggling with all this stuff.
It must be difficult to become aware of all that Phil. How could a child possibly let it in!
There is a new conspiracy theory out there:
“The Joe Biden we see today is a lookalike, double or clone being used by Trump, military / alliance to help wake up the masses to see what America would have been like if the New World Order had been successful.
“Fortunately, Vlademir [sic] Putin says, that the New World Order has failed, and President Trump says, he is going to take back the White House soon!”
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-clone-conspiracy-theory-spreads-1598909
The Biden clone even has his dogs fooled.
Phil,
then the dogs must certainly be lookalike clones as well!
M
Phil and Larry, here is the link again for the conversation between Gabor Mate and Resmaa Manakem. I found Menakem’s ideas of grounding racialized trauma in the body, understanding how we all carry this trauma (but carry it differently based on our histories), along with the idea that racism is not episodic but also structural, to be eye-opening. I also learned a lot from his articulation of Naomi Osaka’s recent withdrawal from French Open, Colin Kaepernik’s taking a knee, Amy Cooper’s calling the cops on the Black bird watcher in Central Park and the Jan. 6th insurrection. https://hub.wisdomoftrauma.com/products/the-wisdom-of-trauma-supporter-all-access-pass/categories/2147858288/posts/2149698139. (I think you’ll be able to open this link.)
Btw, I think the link I posted shows other “Talks on Trauma” with Gabor Mate. Today I watched his conversation with couple’s therapist, Esther Perel titled, “Relationships as Mirrors of our Trauma”. Another mind-blowing conversation, IMO. Here is the specific link for this talk: https://hub.wisdomoftrauma.com/products/the-wisdom-of-trauma-supporter-all-access-pass/categories/2147858288/posts/2149766753
I watched this a year or so ago and since we’re back on the racism track again, now is as an optimal time to post this video as any.
The White Slums of South Africa
“Reggie Yates spends a week in South Africa’s largest white squatter camp, Coronation Park. Are young white South Africans now the ones being discriminated against?”
Ignore the filler material in the first 35 seconds of the video. The good stuff starts immediately thereafter.
I watched this video of the Coronation Park of white squatters, Afrikaners, living in poverty. This was an eye-opener. Certainly it is no place to raise children. Equally difficult to watch was the building settlements where “Hardis” and his young family lived. The police harassment for selling cigarettes, though they also were after drug dealers originally, reminded me of the harassment police in the U.S. can do in overshooting their authority. and in this case making it hard for those in the settlement to eek out a meager living. Oppression or unfair economic practices by black or white government control is sad and inhumane. It was interesting viewing it from the perspective of a sympathetic privileged young black man.
Thanks for the video, Guru.
S
You’re certainly welcome, Sylvia. And did you notice Reggie’s mind being “blown” at the 5:00 mark in the video?
Yes, this world where the white children live in poverty, when he is only used to seeing the black children in Europe live this way, turned his world upside down. What had been an accepted state of mind, it was startling to see this change, a turnabout, of the former privileged class at the bottom of the heap now, instead of only poor black children there.
S
There are images of tent cities on google. Several are in California, and others are throughout the country. There is one about 30 miles from here where people have set up tents to live in the park. The supervisors are trying to find a housing solution, been trying a few yrs. The next small town over from us they have planned some housing and land was donated to build offices and offer some services for the homeless. There aren’t as many children, though, here, as in the South African settlements. Usually families are allowed to live in motels for a while. Sad to have to live that way and not have a permanent living place.
Sylvia, I fully appreciate the seriousness with which you responded to my last post, though I sheepishly admit I was only ribbing Renee’s earlier comments about “minds being blown” in a backhanded manner, that’s all.
Sorry, folks. It looks like you will need to sign up to see “The Wisdom of Trauma” movie and Gabor Mate’s conversations with cool people talking about different aspects of trauma. Here’s is the website: https://wisdomoftrauma.com/.
Thanks Chris for your comments. I think you are providing an excellent example of the power of projection…….. “dreck”, “no insight into human psychology, human nature, or history”, “a deeply resentful and manipulative human being”, “rotten to the core”, “a twisted and angry man” …..while I don’t see these characteristics as prevalent in Menakem, I definitely see them in you. Whatever qualities we cannot acknowledge and accept in ourselves we will be forced to project onto others. Then we will judge and look down on them for having these qualities. I am left wondering a couple of things. Who in your life projected this toxic stuff onto you? And, upon reflection, can you see the systemic/structural racist implications of a white man calling a black man “dreck” and “rotten to the core”? Just curious.
Here is the link that I think you’ll be able to access the wonderful conversation between Gabor Mate and couple’s therapist Esther Perel: “Relationships as Mirrors of our Trauma”. But I think this link will only work today. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VSUUK0-vLkw
The conversation between Gabor Matte and Resmaa Menakem was available for viewing when Renée posted her comment but is not available now. I managed to see some 25 minutes of it. Most if not all of you know by now that I have strong feelings about some of these issues, especially when they hint at western culture being the root of all evil. I also have thoughts about including politics in the treatment of whatever personal issues, including trauma. I could have repeated those thoughts and feelings, but I fear that even if I somehow managed to expand on past writings here I’d be mostly repeating myself.
Instead, I find myself more interested in Renée’s ramark that in seeing that conversation she, “experienced [her] mind being blown in profound ways”. For me it meant that there was some kind of an emotional storm for Renée, which resulted from the contact between her and the conversation or one or both of its participants. Fellow primal travelers, myself included, have pointed to similar past stormy experiences in contact with Renée. Such storms may happen to anyone who allows themselves to expose their personality, their mind, their soul, their feelings, or whatever you call it. There is no activity that does this more than primal therapy. It is a bad business, but perhaps, Renée, you may want to profit from or take advantage of it.
Firstly, Daniel, I don’t believe in the illusion that you can depoliticize anything, including therapy and treating trauma. Why? Because therapy exists within a relationship and all relationships are political (not just personal or professional). Whose voice is prioritized or dominates? Whose voice is silenced, marginalized or gaslighted? Whose truth is believed? Whose truth is declared “fantasy”? Who decides what the real problem is and whether it resides in the client, their partner, their kids, their parents, their colleagues, a combination of one or more of these, or somewhere else? And are these answers negotiated through dialogue or are they decided unilaterally by either the therapist or the client? This is all profoundly political!
As for my mind being blown in profound ways……I love learning new things or learning to see things in new ways. I call this “mind-blowing” because I find it exciting and challenging at the same time. It’s feels like my brain cells are literally “blowing” in different ways and creating new neurons. I find it interesting that you apply your interpretation that somehow I am having an “emotional storm”. Actually, I think I trigger an emotional storm in you when you read what I write! Somehow, my words have such tremendous power and meaning to you. And often this compels you to find new ways to insult and denigrate me. As I said once before, I will love the day when you can just see me as a regular person with strengths and limitations, talents and weaknesses. Just like you and everyone else. I guess that won’t be happening today:(
Btw, I hope you and others watch some or all of the conversation between Gabor Mate and Esther Perel today. My mind got “blown” hearing them discuss the connections between sexuality and spirituality, how trauma affects sexuality, the limitations of the words “consent” and “boundaries”, along with hearing Gabor Mate open up and be vulnerable about ways his traumas have affected him sexually. Rather than a dry lecture, this is a dynamic and exciting deep dive into a subject that I don’t think gets explored enough.
Well, I tried.
I truly don’t know why you felt my last comment was insulting or denigrating, nor why you feel I don’t see you as a regular person, one with strengths and weaknesses. It is actually a good example of what I mean by “emotional storm”. Perhaps you object to my choice of words so you’re welcome to use other, more accurate ones. Feeling insulted and denigrated in your contact with me is a kind of an emotional storm. Completely erasing Gretchen when in contact with her, as if she doesn’t exist, is an emotional storm or a result of one (here I fully believe, as you intimated in the past, that you want to protect both her and you). Storming out of group, throwing a Kleenex into Guru’s lap is an emotional storm. And emotional storms involving you on the blog are quite common.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but you were born and raised on South Africa, presumably in a white family. This was Apartheid South Africa and perhaps your own family members, maybe even yourself, were actively racist, maybe even contributing to the regime and its machinations. Or perhaps you were anti-apartheid activists. Be that as it may, surely encountering people such as Resmaa Menakem, or listening to anti-racist ideologies create some sort of an emotional storm in you. Those are the kind of things I had in mind. It seems as if you felt this was something against you, perhaps as if power was to be somehow taken away from you, while my intention was exactly the opposite.
I think any contact between people may create an emotional storm, and all of us who have attended therapy or a group at one time or another experienced such storm in our flash and blood and psyche. That of course includes me, including in my contact with you.
I want to save the politics debate for a later date and stick to the personal.
Wow, Renee was born and raised in South Africa? Now that’s something I didn’t know (seriously!). I do vaguely remember her speaking of travelling there, but had no idea it may be her country of origin. No wonder my Coronation Park video might have seemed eerie to her! Purely a coincidence, though.
This is just a tiny footnote: I remember being a teenager having to negotiate and buy Krugerrands with wholesalers for my dad’s retail coin shop, scraping a tiny bit of extra spending money on ultra thin gold bullion margins all the while the song “not going to play Sun City” playing in the background.
I didn’t feel terribly guilty trading in the ‘blood coins’ at the time because if I didn’t do it, someone else would come right along and replace me.
Daniel, I remember a long while ago on the blog I was struggling to find out from Renee, “Why is this race discussion SO important to you?” It seemed as though she casually picked up the topic during therapy, much like window shopping for a shiny conversational bauble and she decided to run with it just because it piqued her adult interest on a fling.
At the time I found it irritating because she could rile everyone up about the topic, discussing it extensively, as though she could emotionally manipulate everyone on a casual whim…having everyone emotionally wrapped around her little finger for her amusement.
If your South African supposition holds true, though, everything now makes perfect sense and this old irritation is completely brought to rest for me.
Well, folks, I guess I’ll be retiring from the blog. Friday’s report from my internist was saddening; a year, maybe, without vascular surgeries, maybe 5 with uneventful surgeries. I hared with a frien I’ve supported for 50 years. ” Shit happens,” was his reply. I guess that says it all. My coronary arteries are clear as a bell. (Wonder where that saying originated.) Surgery to correct the congenital heart defect doesn’t make the cut, not a good investment at my age for the health care system. Kinda makes all of the other hopes and issues in my life meaningless; as well as the grand observations I thought I made over the years. I’ve vsiited all of the spots I spent amazing times with my kids and grandkids. Caught some trout. ( That’s a fish, for you citified.) Can’t believe how much I have aged since April 5th. I looked 50ish on April 4, now my age+, of 75 years. My first wrinkles, then sags and senescence; unsteady gait, clumsiness, breathlessness. So, goobye, good luck, best thoughts to all. To Dr. Barry B, thankyou, sir.
David
David, sorry to hear that you feel you have to leave the blog. If you really think the doctors are right and the end is nearing, it would seem to me the blog would become a more important vehicle for emotional support than ever before.
I’m sure no one would have a problem with your staying if you want to change your mind.
Gosh, David, what terrible and shocking news. I do hope there are medications for you that will help your heart. Hope you will be able to catch lots more trout and enjoy your kids and Grandkids. Will be thinking about you.
S
What a shocker. No need to retire from the blog though. There is still life to live and sort through.
David, I am so sorry to hear about all you are going through. I hope you will visit the blog for however long you feel it is helpful. I do wonder if it would not be helpful to get a second opinion ? I tend to think that it can be useful particularly when dealing with things as serious as this situation. Let me know your thoughts if you have a moment . Gretchen
David, I’m very sorry to hear about this, it is very shocking. Could this assessment be wrong?
I hope you’ll continue with us on the blog anyway.
Phil
David, are you “retiring from the blog” because it seems unimportant, considering the news you got? If that diagnosis is correct, I would bet you will still have intense feelings you may want to feel and express to us, or someone, as we “listen” to you. Or just feelings you have heretofore not expressed about your life and yourself, that you may want to share, in whatever time remains. Come back any time.
I had no inclination to even try to watch the video.
the starting point already feels wrong to me, to think in groups, the whites, (white bodies???), the colored, the Chinese, the disabled, is in most discussion, not all, meaningless.
some ‘whites’ are racist, some are not, some ‘colored’ are racist, some are not.
and in any case, it has been tested that any person upon seeing a picture of someone of clearly another race or distinct different group probably, gets an automatic slight increase of body alertness, a genetic adaptation probably as Larry also indicated from our historic past, living in small groups, later tribes etc. and having to be alert for territorial disputes as familiar in most species.
but even if we feel this little sting of alarm, we as rational beings can be aware of it and monitor it and still move on to getting to know the person for who it is, not just as a member of some group with automatically all the aspects prejudices dictate.
i am ‘white’, and do not feel like being a racist.
my family itself is multicolored, and since being a little girl I was indignified at kids calling my ‘colored’ brother names.
and still I can have the awareness of some kind of automatic little red flag waving when meeting for example an Arab person, but I can leave it for what it is, an automatic red flag due to associations, and listen to the person in order to find out a bit of who he is, and start making up my mind whether I think I can start liking him or her or probably not so much, a natural process with everyone w meet, of ‘our own group’ or not.
I don’t mean to say racism does not exits, sadly enough it is widespread, but using terms as ‘the whites’ in my opinion is already a symptom of the wrong kind of thinking, generalizing in groups to attach supposed qualities to its members.
m
I happened to see this today. It’s about critical race theory and politics, so fits in with recent discussions.
I was unable to access the article, Phil, as the NYT requires registration. But I can guess from the title that the article is going to explain that white conservatives—in denial—are trying to demonize CRT. Well, I can tell you from personal experience that I am living this nightmare called CRT and find that it is akin to a kind of brainwashing. That to me is demonical. It is not a “theory” in the sense that there is a hypothesis with attempts to prove anything via logic and reasoning. It is more like an “ideology” based in a loosely connected bank of philosophies (Marxism, Post-Modernism, etc.) with suppositions from social psychology tests like the IAT (Implicit Association Test *which by the way is neither reliable nor valid) and aims at making people aware of their biases, their privilege, and their racism (mostly white bias, privilege, and racism). And if you reject it, that is evidence of your bias, privilege, or racism. How utterly convenient and as I wrote earlier, incredibly invasive and manipulative. Thank you, but I will take care of my own biases—on my own—as I see fit. And I will leave you in peace to do the same. Freedom of thought and conscience are highest up on the ladder of values for me, even if that means that there will be bad acts. I am not a fan of these “workshops”—led by priests like Menakem and Kendi—that are aimed at social engineering. Like I wrote earlier I am not a fan of any attempts at social engineering whether they come from the left of the right. I am suspicious of the intentions of these social engineers and wish they would deal with their own issues instead of making them my problem. My sense is that a lot of CRT is fueled by feelings of resentment and envy on the part of their proponents, and those should be dealt with in therapy, not by forcing me to sit in on one of these “workshops” as subject to a kind of brainwashing.
Look, racism exists here in the US, but its prevalence is exaggerated and politically exploited. I do understand given our history here in the US which we are acutely aware of (as it gets rammed down our throats at every turn), even one act of racism is terrible. But BLM and CRT has more to do with promoting a political agenda more than anything else. As far as there being racist incidents in NYC, I am sure there are, but there are racist incidents of black on white, brown on white too. Your statement that, “there seems to be little racism around here where I live, but I wouldn’t experience it, and so wouldn’t know. But, NYC, where I used to live has had numerous racial incidents over the years, police shootings, etc.,” is anecdote, which is of no statistical value. And as far as “the city’s racial profiling policies” I would be willing to bet money that the NYPD does not have racial profiling “policies”. I remember hearing on NPR a few years ago that there was a long-term independent study on racial profiling in police in LA and it was concluded that yes there is bias. But also, part of the discussion was that this bias is not without reason: black people, who make up 13% of the population, account for a whopping 53% of violent crime. The police, for good reason or not, begin to make assumptions based on their experience. They patrol in bad neighborhoods and based on what they see and because of their experiences begin to make judgement calls that are discriminatory. Is that wrong? Probably, but I cannot say that I blame them. Moreover, saying that “this is why we have Black Lives Matter” is a textbook example of “begging the question.” “They are there that is because they are needed” does not prove that they are needed. I think BLM are bullies and cause more division than anything. The title of the group is inherently racist and divisive. Imagine if there was a White Lives Matter group. If we are really interested as a society in moving past racism, why do we have black colleges, black caucuses, black owned business, NAACP, BET, etc.? They seem to me to be inherently racist.
The data on whether the criminal justice system is biased is inconclusive. If you do a uni-varied study (that is just look at skin color), there does seem to be inequality in the system. But if you look at multi-varied studies—one that considers socioeconomics, prior record, ability to show remorse, etc.—then the differences are not so significant. People with an agenda skew the data to fit that agenda. The killing of George Floyd is a great example of this. When I watched I was horrified and saddened but knew immediately that mass/social media would use it as a reason to stoke division and racial tensions. I did not see Floyd’s killing as an act of racism, but a bad cop who should not have been out on the streets. It was horrible and before anyone could grieve, mass/social media took control of the narrative and fanned the flames of division. His murder, and the hijacking of it for political purposes, were heartbreaking. The radical left in this country makes people think that cops are just out there mowing down black people, but that is not the case. Many more white people have been shot by police. The numbers are disproportionately higher for black people, but again, that is based in uni-varied analysis, the preferred method of analysis for people with an agenda.
Take a look at an interpretation of police brutality from Larry Elder that you will not find in the New York Times:
Chris,
I’ve pasted the whole article here, so you can read it. Politics interest me because that’s how things eventually get done. I’m concerned with the Democrats getting tarred with the excesses of critical race theory when they haven’t embraced it, as far as I know. They don’t support the violence which has gone on with BLM demonstrations either. There’s nothing wrong with BLM if it stays peaceful. But people feel liberated and start vandalizing and stealing, which has nothing to do with the movement.
Critical race theory excess are probably most like to effect places like NYC, California, and Chicago. On the other had, in red states history is being whitewashed, creationism is taught instead of evolution, and laws are being passed to suppress minority votes.
Critical race theory is the political right’s new boogeyman.
The theory, born in the 1970s among legal scholars, uses race as a lens through which to examine structures of power. It was, I would argue, a relatively obscure concept — not because it lacked merit, but because it was novel.
That was until Donald Trump elevated it in order to attack it.
In September of 2020, during the run-up to the presidential election, with Trump trailing in the polls, the Office of Management and Budget issued the following directive:
“All agencies are directed to begin to identify all contracts or other agency spending related to any training on ‘critical race theory,’ ‘white privilege,’ or any other training or propaganda effort that teaches or suggests either (1) that the United States is an inherently racist or evil country or (2) that any race or ethnicity is inherently racist or evil.”
Critical race theory was simply an analytical tool, but to some white people, the fact that white supremacy was overtly used to infect America’s systems of power with both racial oppressions and racial privileges is too much to handle. It is discomforting. It unravels the American myth.
But critical race theory doesn’t diagnose the country as evil, even though it is beyond dispute that some evil people designed the architecture of racial oppression in this country and that there are still some who help maintain it.
In fact, I don’t even believe that most people have any real concept of what critical race theory is. It’s just a collection of words that hint, to them, at agitation and aggrievement: a theory that mentions race and that is critical, or, in their minds, criticizes.
Critical race theory began to stand for any teachings that challenged the narrative that white America had crafted about the country, and that unveiled any truths that it had tried to hide or erase.
Identifying and challenging racism was seen by some as racist. Pretending racism didn’t exist — that merit and sloth, excellence and pathology, explained away racial imbalance — was viewed as egalitarian and unifying.
So the rush by states across the country to ban the teaching of critical race theory in schools isn’t really about a real threat. Very few schools even teach C.R.T. as a core part of their curriculums, if at all.
Republicans are using their tried-and-true playbook of fear mongering about the rise of otherness and the displacement of whiteness, the white patriarchy and a dominant white narrative.
Critical race theory has simply become the latest tool.
Right-wing politics in America is exhausted, out of ideas on how we should proceed and progress as a country, so instead they focus on maintenance: How can power and influence be maintained in its current form — white-controlled, largely by straight white men — or, how can we revert to a time in which they had even more power?
This is done by whipping up hysteria in the base about something, anything, that threatens to bring about fuller inclusion of more people and an expansion of rights.
This attack on critical race theory is no different than the rush during the Obama administration by states to ban Shariah law in state courts, even though there was absolutely no threat that Shariah law would be recognized or used in those courts. This is simply an extension of the Barack Obama-is-a-secret-Muslim conspiracy and the backlash to his presence in the White House.
In fact, in the Republican primaries to pick a challenger to Obama in his re-election bid, Republican candidates were falling all over themselves to condemn Shariah law. However, in the 2016 primaries, the anti-Shariah law crusade died down. In its place, Trump vowed to ban Muslims from entering the country.
The freakout about critical race theory is also not dissimilar from the ongoing attack on trans people, particularly people who were assigned male at birth. First came the introduction of a wave of “bathroom bills” that made it a crime to use a bathroom designated for a sex different from the sex you were assigned at birth. Most of these bills failed.
Now states are moving to ban trans girls and women from participating in high school and college sports, although this is not really an issue. As Larry Strauss, a USA Today columnist, pointed out in April:
“In the more than eight years since the California Interscholastic Federation (CIF) began allowing high school athletes to compete as the gender with which they identify — regardless of what they were assigned at birth — there has not been a single case in which a trans female athlete has been dominant enough to stir protest.”
Just like these initiatives that Republicans whipped up to rail against were by and large not a problem, but rather a wandering outrage in search of a problem, critical race theory is not a problem.
Republicans know that there are a few cultural buttons that they can push to easily generate enough fear and outrage to energize their voters and get them to the polls: the ascension of nonwhite people, the immigration of nonwhite people, a threat to white security, a displacement of white power and white culture, an expansion of rights for “the gays” and abortion.
Republicans attack as a form of rallying cry.
Gretchen, can we have a fresh page for comments? We’re at 2,000+ comments with this eight-month old page, more time than it takes for a baby to develop an entire first line psychophysical system now.
Daniel, yes, it is true that I’m originally from South Africa (hmm…. not sure how you found out about that), even though I and my family left when I was a child. The reason I did not want to bring this up on the blog is because, even though we don’t like to be generalized about, most white people, and we’re all white people on this blog (with David being the exception), tend to view racism as an individual problem rather than a systemic problem that us whites are complicit in maintaining. Unconsciously for the most part, I believe. Furthermore, from listening to people of color that I work with, are in my doctoral program, and am friends with, I have learned that us white folk like to focus on the “bad apples/bad racists”. Thus, we avoid the discomfort of looking at ourselves and the unjust system we are part of. Of course, we don’t have to do this work since we are not impacted by racism. Rather, we are it’s beneficiaries. I knew that if it came out that I was from South Africa, this exact problem would be recreated on the blog.
The irony is that it was through primal therapy that I became interested in this subject. It was through reliving scenes from my childhood where I remembered the pain of what it felt like to be looked down on and seen as sub-human in my family that I became interested in other people’s suffering. First, it was the suffering of children and then the suffering of other groups of people. I became interested in how all the systems in Capitalism, not just the family system, involve unequal power structures with some people having power over (rather than power with) others. And I became interested in the belief system that supported this inequality. Which led me to my social justice education studies. Without primal, I doubt this would’ve happened. So, while you seem intent on excluding me from your world of primal travelers, I will travel my own primal path.
I have posted a new page g.
How do I access the new page ? Thanks
Comments page 6
I think I am in the right place. Present, here, aqui. Gracias, Gretchen.