Remembering Summer part 4

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1,130 Responses to Remembering Summer part 4

  1. jackwaddington says:

    So!!!! all my past comments are now out of site Booooo Hooooo 😦 😦 😦 .


  2. Patrick says:

    Gretchen – I guess I see the way you make a new page just suddenly like that as a kind of coded message to ‘ignore all that went before’.Conspiracy theory? maybe or maybe not. Usually Fiona bugs you a few times before you do it I did not see Fiona asking for that here.

    I don’t want to be overly sensitive or overly demanding but it strikes me this way.Gretchen I feel you are a good person and very helpful and caring but you are also SLICK. I feel that just leave it at that I suppose. It just seems an attempt to say forget all that nonsense Patrick is talking about esp of course the holocaust. Except I feel more and more sure it is NOT nonsense. I don’t expect to convince anyone here I do it for myself I suppose and I appreciate this as a place to do it. Primal people or at least the ‘true believers’ to me are very ‘conventional’ in their thinking I am thinking now of Phil’s last comment reeks of conventionality and not rocking the boat. I was encouraged to see Joop on here as I say I know him and I see him and myself as very emblematic of a lot of the ‘failures’ in primal therapy of which I feel the majority of people are. The ‘successes’ are self reported and mostly unconvincing to me. Though I have met a few people that to me are quite impressive mostly the therapy/movement has fallen very short of the expectations raised and I even think now I know why for the most part. Janov by putting feelings into a realm of their own and then trying to control them and run everything through his system failed utterly in the big picture scheme of things. This is not just me saying this look at any ‘real world’ measure of primal and where it actually IS at versus where it might be and the gap is huge indeed.

  3. Patrick, I’m not sure you really get what I was saying to you. I’m not going to be interested in anything Kollerstrom has to say because quite frankly I think he is a seriously disturbed human being. I don’t think the movie you referenced has anything to do with this except in Kollerstroms mind and yes I know the movie. I have not been waiting to discredit him as he does an excellent job of that all by himself and frankly smarter people than me have long since made mincemeat of his theories. I don’t know what you are talking about when you reference my comments about researching the other side of an argument and respond by saying you will read Kollerstroms book. Or why you say you are working on becoming un- brainwashed. These have been your views for quite some time and you have said as much. Finding Kollerstrom was just the nut you were looking for to confirm those views. As for your friend Joop, I have to say that exchange seemed a bit ” canned” but the good news is you have someone to discuss this with. My concern, were I you, is that you are already deciding that the rest of this craziness makes sense. Yeah, the real Paul was exchanged for who is it , Faul? As for your comment that no one witnessed the gas chambers you are just plain wrong. Kollerstroms theory that the camps were luxury resorts is downright pathetic. But as I say you had this view long before Kollerstrom. But here is the thing …. I don’t actually think you care about the Holocaust or Primal theory or who succeeds and who doesn’t. I don’t even think you care whether we landed on the moon or whether Paul is dead. I really don’t. I think you need to do some major soul searching as to what is really motivating this almost compulsive behavior. Why would a person return to a site over and over where almost know one agrees with you and then continue upping the ante in what seems to be a need to provoke? Is it a simple re- creation of the past? I don’t know but I do question that you find this helpful. I just think you need to ask yourself some questions. It seems truth is not so high on the priority list but rather a need for a reaction and a negative reaction at that. I don’t say this to hurt you but because I think you need to get to the bottom of what’s really going on with you. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Wow Gretchen a lot there and it’s past my bed time but I might find it hard to sleep if I say nothing. First off sorry it seemed I jumped the gun on the reason for the new page I accept what you say about that. About the rest I will kind of just run down what you wrote and respond in that order.

      First off about Kollerstrom we are not going to agree but I do disagree with you very much. He is ‘conspiracy prone’ for sure but he is open minded, takes a chance has his biases I suppose but I find the guy impressive in a strange way. And as far as the holocaust goes I find more and more he is not alone, I and it seems neither you or Jack believe me but it’s true………………I avoided the holocaust like the plague I had come to conclusions about what Israel is doing probably 7 or 8 years ago but the thing is as time goes on it seems to get WORSE and worse to the point of being very dangerous and basically they are itching for World War 3 (with Iran) So that’s the truth I feel I HAD to look into it as SOMETHING has to explain this kind of behavior and I feel I am getting somewhere with it

      As far as Joop is concerned nothing ‘canned’ about it I know him quite well and we do talk and email each other. I just reacted on the blog to seeing him on the blog. I really like Joop and Gretchen he is yet another person who knocked himself out to get here to do primal therapy and he can tell you himself it was a kind of ghastly experience. Like me he has his own fuck ups if I might say so to cause that……………..but the point is the PI was meant to understand defenses etc etc.but from what I saw they did a terrible job or I did a terrible job what’s the difference…………..the result is failure but if there is ‘blame’ it would in my world go to the place that charged $6600 and delivered a chaotic and slip shod therapy. I keep saying and I am not cherry picking here MOST of all the people I know up to say 30-40 would judge it pretty much a failure.Anyway no point in going on about this……………

      To try to get to something important I find your ‘analysis’ of me ‘slick’ also…………..there is enough truth in it for it to ‘pass’ but a kind of lazy and lukewarm truth. Why am I on here is the question I suppose…………………I am on here because I am still trying to work out or come to terms with my feeling that I have been mis-directed and jacked around by the PI in so many ways. I read the Primal Scream when I was 20 and had such a messianic feeling about it, read every single book and journal put out as they came out, saved and worked for 5 years to get here, borrowed money from my Dad on and on……….to come here and right way some VERY bad ‘signs’ Thorazine being dispensed like candy, medical director goes off his rocker, suicides up to 20 YES Gretchen up to 20 and stop your nonsence about how you only know THREE. You have done this before and it is bullshit, talk about ‘slick’ very SLICK and not true. So when you talk about Kollerstrom now I see the SAME slickness and I don’t like it. It’s too clever by half too loosey goosey with the truth it might pass on some kind of low level but NOT in a realm where real integrity and truth is important.

      I am here because I had to get this out of my system……………this is a huge thing a young man is totally consumed by something and finds out it is NOT what it was cracked up to be.You have helped me in recent years as best you can but primal is so flawed it needs a huge revamp and rethink again of course IMO.. And me being a ‘thinker’ have some ideas about all that. I am losing the plot here it is getting late and maybe should have done this tomorrow but I think you are ‘wrong’ about your interpretation of me or maybe a way to say it is you are half right and the phrase comes to mind a half truth is a whole lie. I may have something more to say tomorrow and probably should have waited but let me finish in maybe an incoherent way but I am sick of your ‘slickness’ and how you fudge and dodge and SOUND true but are NOT true. Keeping to specifics you know of only 3 suicides you have said more than once. How about this that I know from a very limited experience

      Elinore………….pretty quiet American girl I was trying to get up the courage to ask out ………….dead (suicide)

      Peter C…………..Irish guy a mover I worked with him many many times a happy go lucky (it seemed) guy sang songs in the truck……………same as above

      Greg……………a young American guy I knew him and liked him. We did a sandwich route for the same company. Again young seemed happy go lucky no great problems but………….dead

      Moira…………….South African girl I know her slightly found dead in the primal box in a house I used to visit

      Can’t remember her name pretty Australian girl……………went back to Australia suicide again

      These are people I knew directly I have heard of several others the guy who shot himself and burned his motorcycle in the desert…………..dead

      Guy who shot himself in the head in the bathroom at the PI…………….I don’t he died

      A Swedish guy (Peter I think) went back to Sweden and put his exhaust through the window………….dead

      Lynn…………..he killed himself while training at Janov’s center but I knew him well did many move jobs together etc

      Do you want me to go on?? I could so Gretchen I want to let you know I know how SLICK you are so anything you might say about the holocaust why should I believe it when these are matters I have DIRECT experience with and you LIE about it yes LIE.

      So there ………………I probably will regret this tomorrow but I want to give you an idea your sloppy half truths do not cut it with me or MOST of the people who have gone through the PI. We can all sit here and in our little self selected group act like it is all hunky dory. It is not and NEVER has been. Time to start over…………………

      • jackwaddington says:

        Not sure if Gretchen will respond herself, but several things you mention here need, from my perspective, to be put in some other context.

        For me, to talk of ‘THE TRUTH’, is a little disturbing for me and I have said before I try earnestly to avoid using the word. My reasoning is that ones man’s truth is another man’s “lie”, and it then becomes an argument. I suits my thinking/feeling better if I say MY FEELING, hence it is now NOT arguable.

        Next the suicides: I have mentioned before and I still feel my point holds good. Suicide is not something that one normally dreams up quickly and I agree here with how Janov charcterized it in the past, as the final act-out, pain-killer, cop-out. I feel strongly that the cause for all of the suicides was not because of what was being done at the Instrite. It may in some cases, have resulted in hoping that our demons that we/they arrived here with, were not quickly enough made to go away and the deep distress of it still lingering caused the suicide to decide:- “that’s it … I’m out of here” … meaning life. I get the feeling that you have some desire to BLAME the Institute or the therapy for putting some seeming “happy-go-lucky” person into a suicidal frame of mind (distress).

        You accuse Gretchen of sloppy thinking … that’s RICH coming from a very crooked and I feel also sloppy thinker. You, by your own admission, can’t even keep a consistency in most of your comments. I am not sure why Gretchen indulges you as much as she does, but from my experience of her she’s not sloppy. She’s first a very, very competent therapist and that’s enough for me. I don’t need to know why she indulges you.

        As far as I can see it; you explained very clearly in one comment some time ago, why you did ‘not cross the threshold’ when you referred to your first week therapist, Leslie Pam, making a suggestion to you, during your first three week intensive and your response (or maybe thought) was “what’s the point”. The very fact that you questioned your therapist in that manner, suggests to me that you brought that mentality with you to the institute. I can only assume that you felt the need to question everything and that is your nature … BUT for and to me, therein is where you, for whatever your deeper reasonings were, to question it first, and then your desire to not go there … where I feel Leslie was trying to take you; across the threshold from thinking, to deep feeling.

        As I read you, you are still doing just that to this very day. Unless: the “point” is explained to you on your terms you are not going there. To coin a phrase … YOU MISSED THE POINT.


      • Patrick says:

        I just remember the Australian girl’s name it was Marina

  4. I added the page because my iPad was failing to take me to our comments page. I guess too many comments. You are more than welcome to bring any comments over here as long as you bring there responses as well. G.

  5. P.S. Slick, an interesting choice of words. G.

  6. Patrick says:

    It might seem I have broken confidences or whatever by naming names……………..but Gretchen sllps and slides on this and has done more that once with me in the past so here are some NAMES, stop your slickness these are NAMES names that nobody much paid attention to, lost souls did their families even make a fuss mostly unlamented names.nobody in their corner and the ‘philosophers’ of primal therapy would ‘blame’ them they failed not the PI the PI NEVER ‘fails’ by definition except that it mostly has it set up that way total impunity “it’s just your feeling”……………….how come even one of them did not get a nasty “Jewish” lawyer and it might have been curtains for the PI. Makes one wonder what strings were pulled, somebody must have pulled some strings

    So what’s the point of debating world history trying to get at some truth when people here right in my face and about facts I know off LIE about it. They are pissing on your leg and telling you it is raining. It’s all your fault you didn’t ‘own’ your feelings blah blah blah. If it was me I would take some ‘responsibility’ but that seems to be missing here too.I see parallels with the way the holocaust theories are defended with the way Janov ‘defends’ primal therapy. Dishonest, no caring, just win at all costs, keep the story going let the goyim swallow some more shit. I start to see lots of parallels unfortunately and much bigger stronger richer and smarter people than me have taken this on and failed. As I said this can only lead to trouble (for me) I should just study it quietly and keep quiet about it. Only talk to people I trust and I have a few still thank God………….

  7. Patrick, You kind of make my point. You say you are on this site to work out what you described earlier as your failure in therapy. But you are not working it out. You came to therapy with what you describe as a messianic feeling about therapy and then you left – forty years ago. You repeat what I would describe as half truths ( or whole lies) ,inaccuracies and gossip and no matter what is said to dispute your claims you repeat it again and again with no ability to consider at times you might just be wrong. At the same time we are so “slick” we allow you on to the blog and give you the freedom to say whatever you like, true or not. I have been asked why we have not said enough is enough to you, why we don’t ban you from the blog. My answer is always the same. Because he has so many negative things to say. It’s always best ( but there are exceptions) to allow people to speak as they always betray themselves. Honestly that is exactly what you did when you made your comments about Jewish lawyers and goyim. You expose that far from the dispassionate historian wanting to find truth you are instead angry and filled with prejudice and misplaced rage. In science we don’t search for the answer we want to be true we search for what is true. There is no one here confused about how you feel. If you look back in this blog over years you will see you have said the same things verbatim again and again. Frankly some of it I think beneath you. If someone disagrees or disputes or even proves you to be wrong well, it is written off, diminished or goes unacknowledged. I would have to say at times some have even felt bullied into silence . I think there is some of that in your response to me when you did not like hearing what I had to say but I can’t be bullied. I don’t want a debate with you whether it be about therapy, the Holocaust or anything else. It won’t go anywhere. I spoke up because this time I felt I had to. In any case I have heard your opinions and there is nothing left to say . Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      It’s funny Gretchen you see ‘proof’ of your corner in me while I see if not ‘proof’ exactly (of my corner) your usual modus operandi.It is not terrible but it is not good ENOUGH to my way of thinking/feeling. Just as PT has not been ‘enough’ for the vast majority who have come to it.

      You have no idea what I go through day to day in my mind my body and my feelings. Trust me on this I am undergoing a ‘process’ that is good that is getting me my health back. And that is still ‘inspired’ by Janov’s writings but is mostly informed by NOT following the ‘specifics’ of what I ‘learned’ at the PI. A lot of it \is ‘un-learning’.You might say I am un-learning my own misconceptions and misunderstandings it’s true too but my point is nobody should have to go on such a round trip as me.

      Joop is a close friend but while the meditation etc probably will help him it is not my way. I am more ‘primal’ than Joop in that sense more ‘primal’ than most truth be told which is why the ‘failures’ both my own and others are painful and hard to swallow.

      What you wrote about Gretchen is………………….ok……………….but you ARE slick, you do not say why you said more than one on the blog there were only THREE suicides you have sort of forced me to ‘prove’ that is not correct, I can and have named names. You completely ignore what I said there. (Do you still say you only have heard of THREE?) You can focus on me using a word like ‘goyim’ but you should know I am only saying what comes up………………if you or Freudian’s believe or encourage ‘free association’ in the mind you should be prepared for that. But more or less as usual the talk is there but the walk not so much. One of the things that attracted me to PT was a few times as a family at home we kind of had it all out, crying, cursing each other, bringing up painful things about each other past and present and in my family as kind of messed up as it was somehow it was all ok, the Irish culture was that deep, when push came to shove the KNEW they had sympathy or empathy. Reading the Primal Scream it seemed like I could have this all the time……………….ok my mistake my illusion really I accept that and know that but I also know to ‘professionalize’ that experience is a contra-diction in terms and that was another of my ‘mistakes’. But I will give Janov this the notion of ‘feeling’ and just letting feelings be or happen or whatever you want to call it is verygood………………..but there is or should be no ‘judgement’ of what a ‘
      good’ feeling is or a ‘bad’;feeling. I am feeling my way about this holocaust thing and I will pursue it at least to the extent of reading this guys book………………something tells me there is something important for me there to learn and something also tells me there are ‘parallels’ to PT some of them not at all pretty………….

      From the moment I have brought up this guy Gretchen the way I see it you have gone into overdrive to shut him down, discredit him, mock him make him a persona non grata which you are also starting to do with me now I feel.He does not deserve this and while I understand you doing it to me neither in the deep sense do I. I could be a good ‘resource’ for you and you could learn from me and learn especially from my ‘failures’ but in the end it is sort of all business and I understand you business comes first. This is a small crime not so bad I blame Janov a lot more he has mis-directed people very badly he must know by now but like a stubborn egotistic and deeply dishonest person that he is he soldiers on. Not matter how much blood is spilled,…………….survive and carry on and WIN. That seems to be true of Janov and also of guys like Netanyahu.It’s a kind of ‘spirit’ that is very damaging to me very damaging to the world IMO and I think that’s why Joop for example just turns away turns inward. Maybe I am just the stupid ‘fighting Irish’ but that’s my way. The Europeans can have their sophisticated ‘outs’ like meditation etc………………….not really my way………………

      • Les.B. says:

        Obvious that your postings are rife with expression of repressed pain.

        Here, on a site of an organization whose purpose is to connect repressed pain!

        Feel the pain dude, and leave the forum to more productive purposes.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Les: Wow! that to me, was so on point, even if a bit harsh.

          Not sure I know or remember you but great to see you on the blog.


        • Patrick says:

          It may be it’s ‘purpose’ but the results are mostly quite questionable all that I see and hear………………”by their fruits you shall know them”

          • Patrick says:

            Or put put more poetically by T S Eliot

            Between the idea
            And the reality
            Between the motion
            And the act
            Falls the Shadow
            For thine is the Kingdom

            Between the conception
            And the creation
            Between the emotion
            And the response
            Falls the Shadow
            Life is very long

            Between the desire
            And the spasm
            Between the potency
            And the existence
            Between the essence
            And the descent
            Falls the Shadow
            For Thine is the Kingdom

            For Thine is
            Life is
            For Thine is the
            This is the way the world ends
            This is the way the world ends
            This is the way the world ends
            Not with a bang but with a whimper.

          • jackwaddington says:

            What would you know about the fruits????? You never got any … by your own admission.


    • Jo says:

      Gretchen, I am so glad of everything you’ve said, and in your concise, fair, factual and real way.

  8. Joop says:

    Well I guess for me there is also just one more thing left to say. I will keep the ‘Holocaust’ thing to myself and share it with some close friends, like Patrick. I’ve gotten into so much trouble because of it and frankly, it’s not worth it. Mind you, it doesn’t mean I agree with the ‘official’ story, it means I get sick and tired of being harassed and hated for just bringing it up. For me, now, I picked up my old interest, which is Tibetan Buddhism. To turn inwards and to try to tame my mind and see if that will bring relief. It’s for me a kind of second door, the first one being finding myself through Primal Therapy, which has been a complete disaster; I still hope silently that something might happen to me. The second door is a kind of negation of the first, which calls for a denial of myself, or at least that is how it feels and see if I get somewhere within myself through Tibetan Buddhism.

    • Patrick says:

      Joop – Maybe it’s time to start over with ‘therapy’ what would be a good name for it “Feelings in all their forms and manifestations with no taboos hidden or otherwise including the right to question anything and everything including the major myth of our time that 6 million Jews were deliberately gassed and starved to death”

      Of course a little knowledge of history would help then we might understand better the reasons for the war and the work camps than some cockamie theory that Hitler acted the way his did because some Jew stole his lunch or something.when he was a kid. That’s about the level of ‘understanding’ you will mostly find here.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Joop: I remember in my hippy days, before I read “The Primal Scream”, getting into meditation and I did get quite a lot from it. In those days amongst other hippies, following the teachings of Gurus was very ‘hip’

      Only last night I saw and interview of the Dalai Lama on TV, and I also played the 5 minute link you posted. Of all the meditations I do feel he’s the best. However since doing Primal Therapy (now for over 30 years), I find that meditation’s goal is to find happiness and/or contentment, via what is termed the “ceasing the chattering in ones head”. In view of what I’ve learned about myself from my therapy, I see a limitation. Happiness and/or contentment is not, as I experience it, what life is about. Life to me, is about the integration of the thinking and feeling aspects of the brain … hence meditation, as I experienced it never took me to that point, and if I began to feel sad I meditated my way out of it. Now I except ALL my feelings, the likeable ones and the unlikeable ones and just appropriately express them.

      My life now is to go with the flow of MY feelings, be they feelings I don’t like, or not, and in it’s own way for me, does keep me for the most part away from ‘the chattering mind’ without the need to sit and meditate. I can carry on doing what ever it is that I am doing as the feeling hits me. For me so much simpler and so much more direct and to me, so much more natural.

      All in all though, I do concede that meditation is a second best, albeit a poor second best … for me. Not meant to be a ‘put down’ towards you Joop.


  9. Margaret says:


  10. Margaret says:

    > after reading some of the comments I feel like making some observations, to sort out my own thoughts merely.
    > the thing seems to be Patrick, you reject both sides of the coin, which is the Messian approach in which you seemed submerged when coming to therapy at first, hoping, yes, ‘believing’ it would do kind of a miraculous kind of healing on you, which of course was not the case.
    > maybe that is partly why you insist on regarding us mostly as believers instead of simple practitioners of a certain method to explore what lays buried inside of us.
    > then, if it is not the miracle cure, the result is the patient or practicioner carries responsibility.
    > some people have a very hard time, specially the ones carrying a lot of anger and distrust, I have seen a few of those drop out.
    > but if their whole mindset is set on rejecting, or of not wanting to allow themselves to be vulnerable, at some point the decision lays within the patient, and the debate can only go towards a debate about whether free will exists or not, or are we all only stuck in one possible kind of reaction caused by our history and environment?
    > if a patient drops out, in some cases a therapist might possibly have been able to let him stay and go on with therapy with some ideal approach, but more often that is not the case, as the patient has a free will of his own, and can make decisions, even if they are not the best decisions to make.
    > let me take you for an example, you wrote here yourself how you refused right at the start to follow your therapists advise to, if i remember well, to adress your mom or dad, in a session or group, dismissing it as pointless.
    > it is just a small example of a certain mindset, of not trusting, and in that case it is actually the patient refusing to do the therapy, for whatever reason there is, sadly enough often a basic early deep distrust that was inflicted on him or her in childhood.
    > but if that goes on, and the person leaves therapy without having really allowed him or herself to open up, is there really a blame on the therapist, or a blame on the patient?
    > why should there be a blame to start with, this therapy is a voluntary thing, and needs coopoeration.
    > maybe the discussion might be slightly different in case of an intensive intern, forced kind of therapy people could for example choose for instead of a long v
    > conviction, just thinking out loud here.
    > my point being, there is shared responsibility and also in certain cases a huge hurdle to take of defenses that scream ‘don’t trust, don’t trust!!’
    > it is an illusion any kind of therapy would be able to heal anybody under any circumstances, imo.
    > i am also one of the many who after reading the Primal Scream, felt like ‘oh, I just have to go there, and my feelings will pour out all at once, they are right there and ready, and I will be done with them in a matter of weeks, or months’..
    > maybe partly the enthusiasm with which the book was written, but mostly I think the nerve it touched, the nerve of truth and all of us searching to get to what lays inside of us pushing to get out..
    > so I guess i am lucky that although I did not go through all of my stuff in the six weeks I had scheduled upon my arrival, I did get into a core feeling, actually come to think of it, by following Barry’s advice to talk to my dad, despite of feeling like a fool at first…
    > all of a sudden after a lot of nothing happening, unexpectedly something I said grabbed me and ulled me along, into my first deep feeling, leaving me afterwards in a hard to describe, wonderful state of reconnection, feeling I finally had found back my longlost best friend, my four year old self.
    > it still touches me to think of it, it was and is so very special.
    > since then a lot of hard work followed, confronting some unpleasant truths about myself, and making the incredible journey of reconnecting bit by bit those cut off neural pathways of suppressed feeling, gradually feeling myself grow into a more unified person bit by bit.
    > the damage will never be entirely undone, but isn’t it in life always like that, that we can only make the best of things?
    > so Patrick, all I can say is I truely hope some day you can slip out of this blame game and find ways in which you can be vulnerable and trustful, and find some peace of mind hopefully.
    > even if some suicides happened, that is very sad, but pain is the source, and if therapists could not get to the source of it in time, specially back then, you can’t keep blaming PT for it forever, as like I said, a person carries his own responsibility too.
    > if I do foolish things I am to blame, not the PI.
    > me and my pain, but the bottom line I have to deal with is me.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, I think you made a lot of good points with this. Phil Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.

    • Patrick says:

      Thanks Margaret – I find that very thoughtful and wise and there is nothing there I disagree with. And thanks for taking the time

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: Wow!!! for me that is the best comment I’ve seen from your in a long time, maybe the best ever on the blog. I saw so much more into you and I agree with Phil, you made so many great points.

      I sure agree that in writing here I, like you, feel I am really talking to myself and revealing things about myself … not all good, but hey hoo. That’s the way it goes yeah??


    • Joop says:

      I did not drop out, I was refused therapy by Hillen and Nygard. The Institute I avoided. Yes, I have a lot of anger and that’s okay. But for a therapist to refuse to give therapy because their patient is perceived to be anti-semitic is overdrawn and a total stab in the back. It was all about trust and my anti-Semitic feelings had to do with things from the past, my parents and all and I had told them that. For these therapists to take it (my anti-Semitic feelings) that serious is beyond me. And that is one of the reasons I do not like jews anymore. They are overly paranoid, they still won’t fit in after all these thousands of years. They talk a good talk, but when you need them they will find a reason to give it you up the asshole. It’s still us and them and that will never change. They’re rude, paranoid, sticky together (oh is he a jew, is she a jew?), sexist, supremacist, liars and arrogant. It’s too bad because I really needed their help. But sometimes in your life you have moments that you run out of luck. But there is one thing that I can’t stand and that is lying.

  11. Linda Blythe says:

    Barry, thanks for forwarding the “blog” site. Sounds like Kim and I are pretty “tame” patients compared to some of the things I have read. Certain people keep referring to the holocaust but don’t say what it is about. I assume that a lot of people deny that it happened, right? Oh, if only it hadn’t!



  12. Patrick says:

    Gretchen – I quote you from August 25th 2014:

    “Over the 40 odd years I am only aware of 3 patients that either tried or did take their lives”

    Now I have given you NAMES, how do you square those names with the above statement. You even say the ones that ‘tried’ are included in the 3. I gave you I think 8 with NAMES and as I have said before the number would run up to about 20 if all were counted. I can give you circumstances but not names.And that’s as far as I know.

    So though the applause from the Greek Chorus might feel good and through all the soft soaping you smooth the edges off a lot we have a funny situation here where 20 gets reduced to 3

    Meanwhile on the holocaust subject 300,000 (figures by serious researches) become 6,000,000. That’s a factor of 20!!. If of the 3 that ‘tried’ if only one succeeded that would be a factor of 20 in the other direction.

    Who is more concerned with the ‘truth’ here?. I will let you answer that one

  13. Patrick says:

    I do not like being lied to. As tough as my childhood was my Mom was harsh and beat me at times but I cannot say she ever lied to me. I loved my Dad and he let me into his world his deepest self and I have to say he never lied to me.

    Primal was supposed to be so much better as a kind of 2nd family compared to my actual family. In many important aspect is was worse it was mostly a false promise at least as practiced by the people who anointed themselves. They castigated all others as ‘mock’. Well not it turns out some of the ‘mock’ was more real and the real is pretty ‘mock’ As in mocking the truth the worst mockery of all at least to me. Lacking truth is mockery. That’s the main reason Janov got nowhere not will he. He ‘mocks’ the truth and scientists see it and regular observant people see it.

  14. I just wanted to say I am happy & grateful to live in America, where I can freely and safely deny without any legal repercussions such insane ideations as Josef Stalin killing 12 million of his own citizens during his time or the hackneyed notion that 60-70 million people have been killed worldwide in automobile traffic since World War II.

    Such unfettered intellectual agility nourishes a warm, fuzzy feeling enveloping my heart.

    I can feel it right here *gentle fist thumping chest*.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Out of curiosity, what would you propose as a solution to all those traffic fatalities.

      My take is that driving in the U.S.of A means you have a good chance of getting killed and/or injured in traffic … rather than in concetration camps.


      • Well, I actually do have a good idea and the ordinary driver could make some extra money “on the side” using this idea of mine.

        The problem is I only have the idea. I don’t know how to build a prototype to share with a patent lawyer. However, the idea could definitely be worked using today’s available technology and ordinary citizens could make extra money for themselves using it.

        I only wish I knew the right people to proceed with this possibility.

        • On a lesser note, I also have an idea on how to dramatically improve post office and mail drop boxes using your iPhone, but again I run into the same patent lawyer/prototype issue as stated above.

        • jackwaddington says:

          You didn’t really explain the idea. Not surprising if you are hoping to patent or copyright it and then hope to make money.

          I’d like to see the 2 ton vehicle out-dated. I saw on the net this morning, Lexus has developed a cardboard care, but it’s still too long and for four persons when for the most part there is only one person at any one time in a car. Then another aerial picture of a Chinese traffic jam. Geezus

          I certainly like the idea of bikes being able to be put on the front of buses and certainly cycling seems to be catching on which I feel is great. I have a Smart car that is great on gas, but not brilliant on suspension. Why a two person wide car? We could increase road capacity by making vehicles single person wide.

          Smaller, lighter, run on batteries, battery re-charging stations and single person wide. But in the end why the need to travel such long distances to do simple things like grocery shopping?

          Finally to you. You seem to have an insatiable desire to be rich. Even your logo is composed of money symbols I read and had a book from many years ago “Seven Laws of Money” Money never did, nor ever will bring happiness, not even general contentment. I know my idea of “abolishing money” sound crazy, but if there became enough of a critical mass of people that would just contemplate the idea for more than two seconds before dismissing it; I feel that critical mass would develop. I contend we’d solve 95% of our human problems.

          For one:- no woman or couple would ever want a child unless they really wanted one out of real love for each other, and thence great love for any baby or babies they created because of their own love for each other. Yep, yep and yep!! my contention. I’ve lived a life, starting in childhood, with very little money around and had a great life. We pay lip service to “Money being the root of all evil” …. yet, crave way more than we really need. For what ?????


    • Phil says:

      UG,I think computerized self driving cars will eventually tremendouslyreduce the accident rate, traffic jams, and be more fuel efficient.It will take a while longer for them to be perfected and to resolve legal issues with there use but I think the day is coming when our machines will drive us around. Phil

      Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2015 21:08:43 +0000 To:

  15. Margaret says:

    > hi Linda, nice to meet you here, hope you stick around!
    > Margaret

  16. Margaret says:

    > Patrick, Jack, Phil, thanks guys, you made me go and reread what I wrote.
    > I almost never reread a comment when I write it, and I was surprised it was that long, smiley, it poured out quite easily after I gave it some thought while washing the dishes.
    > and hey, it was nice I liked reading it again myself, and it is specially nice you agree with it, Patrick.
    > hope it helps you in some way.
    > M

  17. Joop says:

    I did not drop out, I was refused therapy by Hillen and Nygard. The Institute I avoided. Yes, I have a lot of anger and that’s okay. But for a therapist to refuse to give therapy because their patient is perceived to be anti-semitic is overdrawn and a total stab in the back. It was all about trust and my anti-Semitic feelings had to do with things from the past, my parents and all and I had told them that. For these therapists to take it (my anti-Semitic feelings) that serious is beyond me. And that is one of the reasons I do not like jews anymore. They are overly paranoid, they still won’t fit in after all these thousands of years. They talk a good talk, but when you need them they will find a reason to give it you up the asshole. It’s still us and them and that will never change. They’re rude, paranoid, sticky together (oh is he a jew, is she a jew?), sexist, supremacist, liars and arrogant. It’s too bad because I really needed their help. But sometimes in your life you have moments that you run out of luck. But there is one thing that I can’t stand and that is lying.

    • Phil says:

      Joop, Then it seems that your Holocaust denial belief comes as a result of anti-Semitic feelings, not from objective critical thinking. Phil

      Sent from my Virgin Mobile phone.

    • Phil says:

      My guess is there are probably very few holocaust deniers who aren’t anti-Semitic. Phil

      • Phil:

        –I have been familiar with Google’s autonomous driving car for quite a while, yes. The idea I have is for those who won’t adopt it for whatever reason (desire for independence, mistrust of “letting go of the wheel for a computer”, etc.).

        –If one believes as Janov does that the brain is an extraordinarily complex organ, yet we still evaporate into eternal nothingness upon our deaths….wouldn’t being anti-Semitic would carry the same importance as being anti-Space Alien (ergo anti-“ANY STRING VARIABLE”)? If I denied that Stalin arranged the deaths of 10 million Russians, does that make me anti-Russian? What difference would it make? Just wondering aloud…

        • jackwaddington says:

          I once argued on a radio show, that Semites were a group of people from the Middle East, and that Palestinians were equally Semites. The commentator dismissed my remark by stating that, that was not what was colloquially meant by being “anti-semitic”. It is at/on this very point we are arguing with words on the presumption that we all agree on what words mean. Presumably, the dictionary definition should suffice. But that is not how most of us (neurotics) use language in every day life. We play fast and loose with them, (words)

          Why you make the assumption that Janov believing the “brain is a complex organ, yet we still evaporate into eternal nothingness upon our deaths” then extrapolate from that: “.wouldn’t being anti-Semitic, … carry the same importance as being anti-Space Alien (ergo anti-“ANY STRING VARIABLE”)? ………….. ”

          Not necessarily … this is exactly what Thuless suggest is “crooked thinking. Be very careful what you extrapolate from someone’s statement. That’s YOUR notion at best. I once on this blog, quoted something my Math teacher wrote on the blackboard on my first lesson in Geometric proof:- I quote it again, here. (A piece of foolscap is the same as a sheet of yellow legal paper).

          “To prove:- That a piece of foolscap = a lazy dog
          Data:- A piece of foolscap and a lazy dog
          Proof:- A piece of foolscap = an ink lined plain
          In inclined plane = a slow up
          a slow pup = a lazy dog
          therefore, a piece of fools cap = a lazy dog

          I see this as the way most neurotics talk in order to prove their point. Patrick is a past master at it … and my feeling you are a close second.


          • This is exactly where you are going completely off the rails, Jack. You failed to provide any explanation as exactly WHY and HOW and under WHAT EXACT CIRCUMSTANCES that if the brain being destined for complete nothingness then being an anti-Semite would carry any more weight than being anti-.

            Instead, you resort to the same old tired ad hominem attack of “crooked thinking”. Every time you do this, it becomes very clear you have nothing of substance to add to the conversation from that point forward and you just can’t admit it.

            Did you ever solve that Cheryl & Bernard birthday problem given to 14 year-old students in Asia which I was able to solve in less than 5 minutes? You gave up in complete frustration at your inability to solve this logic problem, and yet you’re always accusing me of crooked thinking. You’re just showing that the pot is calling the kettle black where “crooked thinking” is concerned.

            • Word Press doesn’t seem to allow “lesser than/greater than” symbols, so I must re-type a sentence:

              ….that if the brain being destined for complete nothingness then being an anti-Semite would carry any more weight than being anti-(any other random group).

              • I reiterate a concrete example of what I am trying to convey: If I actively deny that Stalin killed 10+ million of his own people….does that make me anti-Russian? Does my being anti-Russian carry as much emotional import as someone being anti-Semite if one denies the 6 million Jews killed by Hitler and his henchmen? Why or why not?

                • jackwaddington says:

                  You are stating hypotheticals. If this and if that …/ Do you OR do you not support the notion that Stalin massacred 10 thousand people.

                  Then again, state (courageously) if you believe Hitler massacred 6 milion, Jews, gays and gypsies.

                  Keeping it all as hypothetical questions question leaves us all wondering where your views are at, OR is it safer for you to not commit yourself??????


            • jackwaddington says:

              So !!!! who’s the pot and who’s the kettle?

              Read the book for fuck’s sake … it’s free on the internet.

              Oh no!! Guru’s full of tomes of wisdom don’t need to read other peoples work … Mmmmmm???

              Fine. Keep on being a superhero. Seemingly: as I read you, you have little else. Least-ways you don’t talk much here about your feelings.


        • Phil says:

          Guru, Holocaust denial seems to be linked with conspiracy theories involving Jews taking over the world. I haven’t heard of such theories involving Russians; they were always expansive in a straightforward way. Phil

          Primal Institute wrote:


          THE Ultimate Superstar Guru commented on: Remembering Summer part 4.

          Comment URL: ( Post URL: (

          This was in response to Phil:

    • jackwaddington says:

      Joop: I have never heard of those therapist (Hillen and Nygard) and take it there were not part of The Primal Institute; correct me if otherwise. Did you avoid the institute before connecting with them? I agree that being a ‘very angry’ person would be a good reason for seeking out Primal Therapy. Being refused admition I would feel would cause even more anger. and upsetness etc.

      However, I do feel that using anger as a means to play the “Blame Game” is counter productive. I have my own history about my feeling on Judasim, which I hope does not prejudice me against a whole cultural set of poeple. Should anyone feel it’s relevant for me to write about it on this blog I will do so. There are people that I like and there are people that I do not like; in many cultures, and the rest I have little or no attitude about them until such time as I might confront, or be confrunted with them. BUT I would personally really like to leave it right there:- ‘liking’ or ‘not liking’. Any other judgment on my part I feel is pointless; least-ways for me

      I will state an incident that happened at a retreat group where I called into question a therapist (not sure which, but my feeling is it was Vivian, my very favorite therapist), who started off on a tangent about Jews and Judaism, for what I felt was. “Jewish promotion” I interupted that therapist with “Stop being Jewish … start being human” then followed, after a very brief pause, “Stop being British … start being human” There was a very pregnant pause after I said that. then after a second or two the group resumed on another point.

      I in no way was ever chastised, discriminated against, or had it held against me for that remark, as far as I know.

      I felt, in hindsight that I was allowed to voice my feeling and it was, seemingly left at that.

      On “being lied to”: So much that goes on out there in the world, is difficult to decide what is fact and what is not. To be ‘not able to stand being lied to” doesn’t really help me. I just leave it as MY feeling and move on .. and for me, that simplifies life. We are being, to repeat your phrase, all the time, especially by politicians; “being lied to”


  18. Joop, I was curious did they tell you they would not see you because of your anti Semitic comments or did you assume that was the reason? Also you said ” that’s why I hate Jews” but they are not Jewish. Am I misunderstanding your meaning? Gretchen

  19. ” if I denied that Stalin arranged the deaths of ten million Russians does that make me anti -Russian ? ” Guru, I kind of think it does or at the very least something serious is going on. Why would anyone deny those murders when there is so much evidence that was indeed the case ? Are there deniers ? Probably. What difference does it make? The truth makes a difference and to those directly impacted it makes a difference. Gretchen

    • Gretchen: OK, that’s fine, but I am going to note something in response to what you wrote:”Are there deniers (of what happened in Russia) ? Probably. What difference does it make?

      So in the interest of fairness, if it doesn’t make any difference whether there are Russian holocaust deniers, then it shouldn’t make any difference if there are Jewish holocaust deniers as well, right? We can just safely shrug the whole thing off as errant observers in both cases rather than being bogged down in arguments about it on the blog in either case.

  20. Guru, Oh you misunderstood ! I was quoting your question above where you asked “what difference would it make ? Just wondering aloud” so I said ” does it make a difference?” And then I responded ” the truth makes a difference and to those directly impacted it makes a difference” . My whole point was that both things would be equally relevant of course. Gretchen

  21. Linda and Les B. , I just wanted to welcome you both to the blog! Gretch

  22. Guru, Yes you are right but since my whole post was responding to your previous post I thought it was clear. You can see if you look back that I took your final three questions and answered each one separately . Gretchen

  23. Guru , Thanks I appreciate that , I just hope you are not dissapointed. G.

  24. Jack, Vicki, Why does WordPress keep logging me out? I have to sign in for every comment! Gretch

  25. Joop says:

    Gretchen, I did not say I hated jews, I said that I did not like jews anymore. There is a difference. Victoria Hillen is jewish as I see it. Her son’s name is Nathaniel and when I asked her if she is jewish she came up with the typical jewish runaround which is that she did go to some church growing up, it is always some vague protestant denomination so that one looses interest asking any further and she said she almost became a priest (that’s also a favorite). I got her when I asked her where her great grand parents came from and she replied Odessa. So I stopped seeing her because she wasn’t being honest with me. Then I got into a whole lot of trouble with my new neighbors, of whom the husband was an Hungarian jew (and who denied it and belonged to some vague protestant denomination) and in trouble with surrounding neighbors, Hungarian and Russian jews. They killed one of my favorite cats and that was the moment I decided to seek therapy with Jorid Nygard again. Jorid at first was pleased, but when I called her back it was obvious she had spoken with Victoria and Jorid told me I could have a session with Judy. Now, Judy was Jorid’s sit-in when Jorid was on vacation or sick and I did not like Judith, because all she did during the session was sit in front of me and practically say nothing during the entire session, as if she did not want to be there. So I told Jorid no, not with Judith and Jorid’s reply was: ‘getting a little anti-Semitic in your old age’ or something like that. So I said fuck this and wrote Victoria, who then replied I was better off at the psychology department of the UCLA or so. So, there I was, cat killed, extremely hateful neighbors and no help. I must say, I started disliking jews because they don’t like me. I’m probably too white, blond, blue eyes and look too much like a German. I was often approached in a hostile way by guys or girls, or I just did not exist or they were scared. Who were jewish, I realized later. So, I don’t like jews, because they’re weird people. And when it comes to the holocaust here I have my little video again that made me think:

    My opinion is that why did the Germans go through all these lengths to first gather jews in ghettos, then bring them in trains eastwards, then tattoo them and shave their heads etc etc instead of just dumping them somewhere and starve them to death. Much easier and cheaper. But I understand, it has much more evilness and evil flair if you have the Germans gas people and then burn them. But it doesn’t make sense. The Germans were fighting a war for their very existence and at the same time they were doing all these elaborate evil things. While, as I said, they could have thrown the jews somewhere in a field in the freezing cold, with no food and no hygiene and get it over with. That’s at least what Eisenhower did (who was jewish) with over a million german soldiers after the war. He got away with it by creating a new sort of enemy soldier, not POW’s because then he would have to adhere to Geneva convention but he created DEF’s (displaced enemy forces) and have them rot in a mud field and die like rats. Look it up it’s all on the internet.

    Famine was also a favorite of Lenin and later Stalin, who were either jewish or pro jewish (jewish wifes, quarter jewish etc). They killed tens of millions of White Christians in this way. Think about it. Or not. whatever. The so called Russian revolution was an alien takeover (jews) of a white Christian nation with a hatred and sadism that is so typical in my opinion. But whatever. Then I have to again come back to this video and hope I find friends and some peace in that community:

  26. Joop, I’m not sure you can hear this which is fair enough. Eisenhower, Victoria and Jorid are not in fact Jewish not that it should matter at all in my opinion. It does seem clear that when you don’t like someone you decide they must be Jewish which is really ar the root of group hate. I think this is why we have to be so careful what we support in each other as things can quickly spin out of control. It’s so easy to project our anger on to others but I’m sure you know all this. I’m sorry it did not work out with Jorid or Victoria but I’m sure there is a therapist that would be helpful . I also think if you find meditation useful then that is positive as well. Gretchen

  27. Patrick says:

    Joop who I know very well and i am tempted to say I ‘love’ (as much as I am capable and not in any ‘gay’ kind of way) anyway I have a lot of respect and regard for him. He also has a great sense of humor and his love of punk rock is infectious or at least was to me…………………anyway and this is none of my business really and I hope he doesn’t mind but what I feel like saying is all these difficulties he had with these therapists and neighbors etc was AFTER he had come to the PI to do prmal therapy and left in fairly short order feeling un-helped, mis-understood etc. In my opinion a fairly common story at least among most people I know and respect but he seemed to accept that just as a ‘big def\eat’ and look elsewhere.

    In my own case I went in a different direction but in my own way got into other difficulties (My brother in Ireland just told me a ‘saying’ he heard there “No two people go mad in the same way” which I thought was funny/clever)…………I got into overwork especially. This to me brings up another aspect of PT that I have never talked about much but I think is actually a very large issue or was at least. That is most of us Europeans came here on tourist visas to get in and were very often ‘illegal’ after a month.To me and I am sure to others this was a very insecure and scary feeling and we reacted in different way in my own case being a quite insecure and scared person I made sure as best as I could that I could ‘survive’ and this set the template for a lot of my time and what I did her. But the point is for Janov and the PI to knowingly bring people here and put in the maelstrom of insecurity and ‘survival’ while at the same time expecting them to delve into their deepest most painful and insecure selves is ridiculous and a contra-diction in terms. I feel in my own case now I am ‘retired’ I can sort of do that. But that again brings me to the ‘irresponsibility’ of the PI to have a set up like that, Janov and others must have known how unlikely that would be to work if they thought about it (which they should)

    My ‘fantasy’ always even back in Ireland/England in the 1970’s was the PI would open there. But that brings up in a funny way the “Jewish” angle………………..Janov was never about empowering people where they lived and in their own community he was all like they are ‘neurotic’ cultures anyway and I remember one ‘discussion’ at the PI where people were debating which country was the most ‘neurotic’ I think they settled on Germany which is ironic indeed as at that time Germany supplied a huge bulk of their customers/patients. But Janov like most others and pretty much all Jews have swallowed whole the “Myth of German Infamy” as a book is called and probably were never interested in setting up a clinic there. What I feel is the Jewish ‘chosen race’ myth is operating even there, we know the ‘truth’ you come to us, forget you tired old neurotic cultures whatever and where ever they are come here to la la land and you come here and no help pretty soon you are borderline homeless and scared. This to me is or was the height of ‘irresponsibiliy’ and combined with the zoo like atmosphere in groups was a recipe was ‘failure’ and so it was. Speaking of tired old neurotic cultures and I have said this before I find the average Irish person can conflict solve and ‘get over’ things way better that most primal ‘veterans’ who have imbibed (Jewish again) attitude on no forgiveness endless recriminations etc. I know a very good one here.

    Where am I? I am saying Joop got ‘lost’ in his own way as I did in mine…………… me it was pretty much inevitable and it is so easy to then get lost in the effects of getting lost. That is why I feel it has been helpful to me to be able to sort of retract some of those steps, I am sure it is sometimes not pretty and I piss off people but it’s something I feel impelled to do. I follow my feelings on that one lol. Not again that it is my business but I feel it is good Joop speaks about this and I feel he STILL gives the PI a ‘pass’ and focuses a lot on the difficulties he had later but the PI WAS the reason he came here was the beginning of a lot of problems. It is not that I want to ‘blame’ the PI for everything I have become well aware my insecurity and fear was deep in me from childhood I ‘own’ that feeling now I really do but at the same time I am not going to say ‘it was all my fault if only I listened to the PI ‘properly’ I would have got to my feelings etc etc No I am not going to say that because it is not true. I did my best the environment here was bad even very bad and for a ‘clinic’ to blame the patient is upside down if the patients ‘fails’ the clinic ‘fails’ too.

    I think it is good for him Joop to address this now and even the fact he writes here shows that he is in his own way.I credit him with also pointing out to me how important this ‘Jewish” angle is in life and politics in general. We are dealing with some big ‘propaganda’ here I am just staring to find out. I being a sort of ‘present orientated’ person only saw all the bad behavior of Israel and kind of kept it to that but Janov himself has taught us to understand anything you need to understand the ‘history’. That is true of individuals and also ‘cultures’ there is a lot to Jewish culture it after all gave us Christianity and primal therapy the two biggest ‘influences’ in my life it also gave us Marxism a big influence on the life of some of my friends but now I like to delve beneath a lot of that And I am reading a lot of history etc it is fascinating and I have the time. I actually really like this Kollerstrom guy he is eccentric and a bit weird but he is a ‘free thinker’ which I love and that is another reason I reacted so strongly to Gretchen immediately saying he was a ‘moron’ and really going over board to discredit the guy.It gave me a glimpse of what Joop complains about the ‘group think’ and the defensiveness that has ‘worked’ so well for them…………….so well that is it ILLEGAL to ‘doubt’ the holocaust in most European countries. Margaret I have checked there ARE laws against it in Belgium so watch what you ‘think’ Should not that be a BIG clue something is being spun and covered up when it is ‘illegal’ to talk about it. That is the power of ‘Jewish propaganda’ it has awesome power and I hope I won’t live to regret writing stuff like this. Not forgiving and not forgetting and taking vengeance is part of the program…………

  28. Patrick says:

    This is one reason I like Kollerstrom he goes down to Scotland Yard to be ‘arrested’. To me this so funny in a very English kind of way.It’s like a John Cleese/Monty Python kind of a situation but also with a somewhat serious point. I think it is so funny when he and the guard are ‘agreeing’…………… call this man a ‘moron’ well I wouldn’t……………….

    • jackwaddington says:

      The guy is goofy: to say the least, and not in humorous way, as I saw it. Your prior post was also another long winded attempt, as I saw it, to defend your position about Jews, Judaism, Janov, the institute and your own mental reasonings. Sort of a justification of yourself, your thinking and opinions.

      It’s ok to state your opinion without having to justify it, but it’s not ok to viciously attack, verbally or otherwise, other people as you certainly did on your arrival onto this blog about me. Why I say it’s not ok is that it has a tendency to backfire on you as I feel it has.

      If you were to keep you opinions to “like”, “dislike”, “indifference to” or some other reflection of your feeling; it then keeps it within ones own domain, as I experience it Not to suggest that you don’t voice it, but to voice it in a manner that both you and everyone reading or hearing you, knows that it solely belongs to you and you alone. Bringing in other to bolster your own view in essence is meaningless.

      That’s my feeling and I’m sticking to it.


  29. Margaret says:

    > I am still feeling shocked by the straightforward example of pure racism we saw in Joops comment.
    > to generalize feelings of anger and hatred to an entire ethnic or cultural group, ignoring the fact every group consists of individuals, seems to be a clear sign of unresolved feelings being acted out and projected. but it feels scarry because of its intensity.
    > you asked a very good question there, Gretchen, it also crossed my mind, whether the reason for not being admitted into therapy was really the antisemitic feelings or something else.
    > I think the only time we can to some degree talk in group qualities it is when groups gather under a clear commonly shared ideologic and extreme ideology, and even then there might be huge differences among the group members .
    > to read those statements about Jewish people in general is shocking in its insaneness.
    > M

  30. Margaret says:

    > p.s. it seems quite clear, to me in any case, the urge to ask people to start with whether they are Jewish, already is a weird thing to do, and enough to put people on guard.
    > it would not occur to me to walk around asking people, neighbours or therapists or whoever, about their being protestant or christian or Jewish or whatever, unless it would be part of the subject of the conversation in some way.
    > it seems pretty clear the mindset was one of suspicion and negative stereotyping and prejudice to start with,.
    > kind of a selffullfilling profecy as to not being liked by setting it up yourself by your own approach, and then go ‘see?’
    > i find it scary, but it must probably not be much fun for the person living like that in what must feel like a hostile world.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      What I wonder is if a therapist really dislikes a prospective patient for some reason wouldn’tthat be a valid reason to reject him for therapy. It would make the process difficult I would think. Better to refer that patient to a different therapist.I have no idea what happened with Joop. But, for example, if a therapist is Jewish and the patient is extremely anti-Semitic, maybe that is a problem. Even understanding that thatprejudice is caused by childhood pain and that the person can’t help it. The reverse would be true too in that it wouldn’t work for the patient having a low regard for his or her therapist.Phil Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 15:23:40 +0000 To:

  31. Phil, Yes you are right, sometimes it’s just not a match and it’s best the therapist simply make a referral . Jack and Margaret, I do agree wth so much of what you have both said. I’m about to start a session so I may need to finish this later but lastnight was the first time I saw the idea of censorship in a slightly different way. Some of the more recent comments are so toxic, sick and bullying that I can no longer see how this is useful. I think the final straw for me was seeing how this sort of rhetoric manipulates the more fragile amongst us. There s some interesting reading online and in the bookstores and specifically I went searching for ” The Case for Censorship’. One of the things it discusses is the reasons for ” hate speech” . Obviously there is the search for those who feel similar to us. , I’m starting my session – I will finish later ! Gretch


    • Phil says:

      Gretchen,I’m in favor of free speech but when it’s the same points repeatedly,the craziness, and bullying, then to me it’s excessive. I want to be on this forumbut if it was any other group I think I would give up and not bother.Also, it’s hard for me to see how all that ranting would be therapeutic.Oh, well sometimes it’s triggered my feelings, but I don’t really need that.Phil Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 17:03:26 +0000 To:

      • Sylvia says:

        Yes, Phil. Things trigger us and we deal with that, taking care of the pain brought up, feeling it back to its roots. But after that the irritating thing is just that, a fresh pain to be avoided. We don’t want to fill our lives with irritants, we want meaningful and joyous experiences because now feeling, we can enjoy.

    • jackwaddington says:

      I have thought about your comment Grechen with respect to censoring and censorship. I strongly feel that an open blog as this is: it is correct and offers many insights as to how others deal with their feelings. That, to and for me, is it greatest asset.

      However, I do feel there needs to be a way for the group consensus to be aired if it is generally agreed that one person, even if that person is me … (I’m not perfect ……….. yet! 🙂 and 😦 .still struggling with it.).

      My suggestion for what it is worth. If many feel that a comment or post is”- defensive, abusive, objectionable in one context or another, it could be for those souls that feel too intimidated to comment … is to make a comment, but do not click the “name” button after writing your comment … or even resign-up under a pseudonym … the option being there above the comment box. That way you will be announced as anonymous.

      I do feel that my poking Patrick and sometime Guru is effective … even if after few day pause, they come back again on another tack. Coming back on another tack does mean the old comment thread is then dropped … more often than not. No-one likes being ganged-up upon … except the real masochist.

      Just my idea, others may well have better ones … without suggesting outright banning.


      • Phil says:

        On the PSG (primal support group) forum Patrick probably would have been”moderated”over the Holocaust postings. Not for being wrong, but for inundating uswith information and his views on the subject. Moderated for lecturing, dumping, andexcessive off topic postings. Also those views might impact a group member in apersonal way, and that would be another reason for moderation.After that his posts would not havegone through to the group without being reviewed. Only non-Holocaustposts would go through. After a while he would be released from moderation.That group functions well with the guidelines which are in place, and itmostly self regulates. The guidelines are not rigidly enforced. First some group membersmight complain about the behavior and then a warning would be made etc.There was only one person moderated in the last year, and it wasfor flooding us with his views and information on vegan diets, animal rights,and vaccinations. That person ended up leaving the group. I had nothing to do with putting in place the guidelines. The members there almost allseem to like the guidelines enforced and the way the group operates. Phil

        Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2015 21:01:49 +0000 To:

        • jackwaddington says:

          Phil: I do read the Primal Support group emails and very occasionally respond, and regularly receive the guidelines.

          I was once moderated about a ruckus I had with one person, but right now I have forgotten what it was all about.

          I was not too concerned about it at the time, and did not in any way feel I was silences, thwarted or even restricted. That was what the rules/guidelines were, and I was willing to comply. I am not sure the same could be applied to the Primal Institute blog. Maybe Gretchen would … dunno.


        • Patrick says:

          Phil – it makes sense that’s how you would run a blog. I have looked at the blog and feel no urge at all to write there. Similar to Janov’s blog censored and dead for the most part. One of the great things about this blog is it was NEVER censored and now it seems here it comes when some real and important ‘truths’ start to be revealed. At least I think so.

          • Phil says:

            Patrick,The owner and founder of the PSG blog no longer participate, I simplyam running it as she wants. On this blog you have presented you views. What more do you want?You could do that on the PSG as well, but after a while you would be shut downfor repeated postings on off topic postings.Phil

            Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2015 03:50:23 +0000 To:

            • Patrick says:

              I just said Phil for some reason the PSG blog does not appeal to me. Neither does Janov’s. This one does! and I have always given Gretchen her props for that let’s hope things don’t change too much. This morning a friend of mine said Gretchen might feel or even be in an awkward position even allowing discussions about the holocaust. That’s something I had not thought about but if true shows once again the depth and the lack of freedom in this area. It might not be ‘illegal’ in the US but I am sure it would be very frowned on by some people. Gretchen has made it clear she does not like it or agree with it so I would hope that is ok. But I might be wrong…………………….that’s what I hate such blatant propaganda right out in the open and people either don’t see it or are not allowed to see it. This so kind of version of ‘hiding in plain sight’ the brain washing I mean it is so blatant so right out front that people do not notice………………once a people are that brain washed convincing them to vaccinate their babies over and over again is easy I suppose…………….or any number of other lies. I even think people somehow know they are being lied to so in a strange way they then EXPECT to be lied to some more and then they DEMAND to be lie to……………….human psychology is tricky and goes just a little bit beyond mommy mommy etc……….not that that is not valid just that it is not the ONLY thing.

  32. Margaret says:

    > thinking more about it all, I guess carrying or even cultivating anger is not an unusual defense against big feelings of fear and insecurity.
    > I used to be like that myself, attacking and showing my claws because really I felt scared, but that last bit I had to admit to myself gradually in therapy.
    > becoming vulnerable takes a lot of hard work at first, but then seems to turn into some kind of strength..
    > it specially helps when the truth no longer is a threat, but rather an allie, or do you spell it ally?
    > although I admit anger and hatred scare me, I also sense the pain that lays underneath in many cases, and do feel concern and a wish to be of help in some way..
    > but blind rage and tight defenses do seem to trigger some early stuff with me, stuff some of my nightmares are made of..
    > Joop, I do hope you find some peace of mind with the Tibetan meditation.
    > M

  33. Joop says:

    Gretchen writes: Joop, I’m not sure you can hear this which is fair enough. Eisenhower, Victoria and Jorid are not in fact Jewish not that it should matter at all in my opinion.

    Joop writes: Gretchen check your history; Eisenhower was a Swedish Jew (the best of both worlds, right?) look it up!

    It dawns on me that everybody leaves my cat out. Murdered, he was. By a bunch of insane jews, and that’s a fact. JUST A FACT (they exist you know, insane jews).

    I worked for a moving company were every customer that called and was jewish wanted to know: where am I from? I had them guess, first guess almost ALWAYS Germany, second almost ALWAYS Sweden. And then that is normal?

    I used to absolutely not bother with these things, but over time I started thinking, quite normal, isn’t it? I’m not guilty what happened to anybody before I was born, here in Holland the tendency is making Dutch people feel guilty about their colonial past even. Has nothing to do with me, nothing! But most people swallow this crap.

    Once again, I DO NOT HATE JEWISH PEOPLE but I certainly do no like them. Again, there is a difference.

    Now I am the hater on the blog, people think I have a problem. I’m okay, but I just don’t like jews anymore, okay. That’s all there is to it.

    I’m not going around killing other people’s cats or animals.

    I’m totally okay last time I checked. I can still say that about myself, I care enough to be able to say that. But do not touch my animals. And do not cut me out, when I need your help the most. That’s silly behavior. And completely unprofessional.

    I also want to say that I know some jewish people here that I do like, okay. I haven’t discussed this problem I am having because I do not want to loose them.

    You guys are not reading at all what I said before. You do group thinking too, I’m the bad guy with the anger and hatred. Anger, yes I’m angry and that is normal after all the frustration I had in my personal life as well as my experience with people. Hatred no, except old hate towards my dad, but that is old.

    My opinion about Primal Therapy is is that they totally fucked up. Maybe it is because they are jews or americans, I don’t know. I’m just damn glad that I am who I am, where I came from and where I will go. So many people are lost. It’s not fair.

    • tom verzar says:

      Hi Joop
      I think you got it wrong. The one totally fucked up is you. Big time. I don’t know where you come from, where you got your ideas from, but they are totally fucked.
      Blaming the Jews.
      Are you really that crazy? Bigoted? Stupid?
      It’s a wonder you are still on this blog. I would’ve thrown you out of here a long time ago.
      I can’t believe people like you exist in today’s age. You are a relic from the past. Go back there.

  34. Joop says:

    And thanks Margaret for hoping I find some peace of mind with the meditation.

  35. Hi all, Thanks to all on and off the blog for your feedback, it really is helpful. What I started to say earlier was how toxic this was beginning to feel. Mostly it doesn’t feel helpful in my view. So I decided to do some reading and this is where I am. I stand by my assertion that in the end this isn’t about the Holocaust or even what’s good or bad about Primal in my opinion. But that being said it is hurtful to many. It begins to feel like an assault and frankly I know for a fact that it keeps some from participating anonymously or not. I have never censored this blog and it’s interesting but I was not for the banning of hate talk that so many countries have adopted. But I now see it a little differently. I tend to think most things are better exposed then not but there is a point when it begins to feel like there is something else going on., Also this issue would have come up whatever form of prejudice we were talking about. I say this because I have noticed that argument often used to excuse the behavior. Every other tragedy including those personal to us is then compared ,in this case, with the Holocaust. As if we could come up with a worse event that somehow proves something. I think we can all agree there are many tragic events period. Anyway I think this kind of rhetoric is not really meant for discussion. It is meant to disable its victim and to find others who feel the same. The search for support often leads to those least prepared to handle the situation. The need to cause pain perplexes me. I always think if you have ever felt even a minute of real pain you don’t want to say or do hurtful things to others. Prejudice is insidious isn’t it. We can hate groups of people because it is somehow safe but if we look at individuals we might have to deal with a living, breathing, feeling person. So this is where I am for now. I don’t have a problem with anyone saying what they think or feel and I don’t mind what ever people choose to discuss but I think we can all agree when it’s enough. So I would like to put a period on this – no links to Kollerstrom or Holocaust issues. It’s clear we feel differently and that is that. We don’t need to repeat things endlessly. There are other blogs to post these things on and no one has erased your views from this blog. You can copy and paste your thoughts anywhere else you like. Hopefully that will be honored. Gretchen

    • Anonymous says:

      Gretchen – I find your logic pretty un-convincing. And also very telling when we finally hit the Big Kahuna of propaganda and prejudice (in my view) you call a halt to it and you were SO quick to attack Kollerstrom as a ‘moron’ most unlike you mostly you have been very neutral on just about any subject. To me and maybe only to me (and Joop probably) it says a lot. Now I believe you are sincere in your views and I imagine you really believe all the holocaust ‘stories’ this though has nothing to do with whether they are true or not. I am literally engrossed in a book called “The Myth of German Infamy” which to me is amazing…………..amazing in the truths it shows. All of these years I KNEW there was something very bad about Israel as a force in the world I watch and watch this and feel compelled finally to dig into the ‘history’ and there is a story there that is most or less exactly the opposite of what all of us have been told and believe. And now to me at least the world starts to make a lot more sense even if that’ knowledge is scary and dark for the most part. Like what will they do next what world war will be fomented who knows………….to me Joop in not a ‘hateful’ person unfortunately for him it all got a bit too much for him. And a good part of the reason is he has an inquiring mind and I would say is a very honest person. He is after all Gretchen one of your patients I don’t think shutting down what he has to say even if it a bit rough and ready is not that cool. He left the PI without it doing much of anything for him and tried his way with other therapists. Like me he seems to kind of have come back and as I told you many times I have always appreciated the way you dealt with me. Except in several of our ‘debates’ in the last year or two I found your answers and approach pretty un-satisfactory but hey nobody’s perfect and I can over look things but when you go in guns blazing on this Kollerstrom guy I’m whoa what is actually going on here.

      And now you declare any discussion of him off side and not allowed………………are you perhaps ‘afraid’ of what I might reveal since I told you I look forward to reading his book (It has not come yet). Why the sudden halt to ‘free thinking’ why is THIS so special.I think it is ‘special’ all right specially big and important and does cast some light on primal too (Give me time)

      The other thing is you never attempted to answer my question how does 20 become 3 (and that includes ‘attempted’ suicides – so you leave open what is the real number could be 1 or even 0. Going with 1 you have ‘divided’ by 20 there not a small distortion that. And as I said a kind of neat inversion where you seem to ‘multiply’ by 20 to get to the 6 million number. I am sure Kollerstrom will pretty much ‘prove’ that (and not only him of course) but are you perhaps having cold feet about how all this information is coming together? Gretchen to me this is a test for you let’s see how you handle it, ‘truth’ can be very inconvenient as Al Gore tried to show us.

      • Patrick says:

        Of course that was me…………..

      • Patrick says:

        Gretchen – I feel a bit bad now putting you on the spot again about this. After all you did not answer before so presumably you have some reason not to. But what I am reacting to now is about you use a lot of flowery and nice world and vague words too………………and I am annoyed that you slip and slide and DON”T answer the question but come in now with the big ‘threat’ censorship. It moves the topic away and become some kind of general discussion but this whole suicide thing I have gone round and round with you before and I ONLY do it because to me you never come clean about it. I am sure you were all doing your best in those days as you understood things even if you were wrong about a lot but to ‘compound’ it now well that is not impressive. You of all people should know that to make progress you have to face up to the ‘truth’……..are you?

        • jackwaddington says:

          Quote:- “You of all people should know that to make progress you have to face up to the ‘truth’……..are you?” Who’s truth????? Yours ONLY it seems.

          Are you suggesting here that you are ‘fully expressing your feelings’ To me, you NEVER express your feelings … you act-them-out. The very antithesis of Primal Therapy as I have experienced it. Perception of what is “truth” and what is “fictional” is in they eyes of the beholder, as I see it. But then perhaps at this late stage of my game I’m going blind … who knows!!!!

          Like you, I’m not able to stop POKING you, whereas you seemingly can’t give up on your quest to prove that “truth” = Patrick Griffin. The one down the rabbit hole, I assume 🙂 .

          I feel (for what it worth) that you are way more than annoyed … you sound bitter. If you can live with that then “hey hoo for you.”

          My take on the 3 v 20 suicides. I feel that the three Gretchen was referring to were the 3 that took place at the Institute building, whereas I feel your reference was the 20 that after a little time in therapy decided to do what I feel they’d been contemplating for quite some time. then on reading “The Primal Scream” saw the possibility of an out of that dreadful feeling (I am aware of how dreadful that feeling is and can be since I’ve been there). I was once suicidal after a major break-up with a lover. I understand that you have never felt suicidal, but you seemingly know what it’s all about. Just my feeling about you and I could be wrong, but I feel sure you’ll correct me, alternatively you’ll just ignore the question. No problem for me if that’s you decision.


      • jackwaddington says:

        Geezus: All this seems to me to add up to is a long, long winded DEFENSE. Yes; defense of YOUR POSITION. You are always right and only you and those that fully agree with you are right and the rest of us WRONG. You acuse others (convenietly) of not answering your question and yet you of all the people, never answer any questions either. Forget about my questions I know how you feel about me; you’ve made that quite clear.

        It seems you can’t leave it alone and it seem to BUG you no end. I suspect it huts very badly; and perhaps you are not even aware how badly you are hurting.

        Gretchen has stated her case. Accept it. She’s there and been there for many people; not just YOU and Joop. She created this blog for the benefit of ALL of us.


  36. This brings up a related point: If you find something you don’t like reading, why not pass it over or ignore it individually instead of forcing it out of view of everyone else because a minority may not like the words (ie. censorship)? I am not saying this in a covert attempt to inflict misery or to back up the controversial opinions on the blog, but rather I’m trying to show some of the complications that can emanate from suppressing potential knowledge from everyone else who may be neutral or indifferent (aside from extraneous social validation issues I haven’t clearly discussed, I place myself in this neutral camp).

    This reminds me of a boss I had at work many years ago: I had a conversation with her about multi-million dollar wrongful death suits. “The ruination of our country!”, she would say. I would respond: “How do I handle being upset when I see I will have to work for 200 years as a modern-day economic wage slave while big settlement recipients will walk off with many millions of dollars??” She replied with curt wisdom, “Just don’t read the Goddamn article!” Case closed; off I went back to work.

  37. Patrick says:

    This music reminds me how much Joop liked the Sex Pistols.(me too) If you listen to the words here he is going on about the Berlin Wall and other matters he mentions Belsen too. So should this be ‘censored’ too this is a real slippery slope. And if you ‘censor’ you are doing nothing different than regular ‘repressed’ society. If you censor I probably would have to go …………….which is probably what you want anyway so I should not have said that. Well you can then have your nice little boring and politically correct blog. As if ‘primal’ was not half dead already now you kill it off totally

  38. Patrick:

    If you don’t mind, I would like to ask you something. I think it would only be fair to everyone if this topic is broached fully, OK?

    Does this chain of events and thoughts make any sense or resonate with you?

    a) Patrick is super pissed off and outraged at the Primal Institute/Janov/Primal Therapy in general
    b) When Patrick gets outraged, he has a tendency to hurl insults at whom he am angry at so he can hurt that person or group in return
    c) Institute staff/veteran patients/Primal associates are largely impervious to conventional insults
    d) What can Patrick do if he really wants to hurt them back without resorting to useless conventional insults?
    e) Oh! I know! The Institute has a strong Jewish influence due to the cultural background of its associates, so why not use a polarizing figure about the Jewish holocaust? That would be more insidiously effective at hurting them than just an ordinary insult, wouldn’t it?

    Please do understand I am not presenting this list “A” through “E” in an accusatory tone, but rather I think it would only be fair to the blog readers to have this answered more clearly. Maybe this list is entirely wrong on my part? But can you in all fairness and courtesy tell us this list is not true for you so we can start to look away from possible ulterior motives on your part? Thank you.

    • CORRECTION on b) When Patrick gets outraged, he has a tendency to hurl insults at whom he is angry at so he can hurt that person or group in return

    • Patrick says:

      Guru – you ask interesting questions and to be fair there probably is truth in what you are suggesting. But this kind of always comes back to the same place in that rather then look at the merits and demerits of an ‘argument’ the focus comes back on the person making it. Of course in a way this is valid. And in primal that also of course in kind of the process that IS valid but it can also get unbalanced in the EVERY ‘argument’ ever made reflects or says something about the person making it. But there is a balance here and to always just focus or question the character/motivations of the person putting forward the argument can and does lead to a kind of absurdity. The absurdity of excessive psycho-analysis. I mean to primal people it should be a ‘given’ that ANY thing anyone does or says is about them but are we to stop there and never look at the ‘real’ world.

      In my own case I tend to get lost in the ‘argument’ a few days ago as this was starting I had some memories and feelings that seemed important and I almost got round to writing about them but then it kind of all gets swept away in the ‘fight’ or ‘argument’. That is a problem I have sometimes I will admit that.

      About the “Jewish” connection to primal therapy and so on……………Dr Kruse has talked about how as a person gets ‘healthier’ and his brain and body improves he tends to see more and more how things are ‘coupled’ or ‘linked’. He sees ‘connections’ that are normally missed. Primal therapy has a “jewish connection’ it is after all based on Freud who was Jewish also, psycho-analyis, and Marxism are 2 modern notions quite influenced by a “Jewish’ way of thinking. But this is a huge subject as I say Christianity is also to say the least heavily influenced by jewish thinking. I better stop here this topic is too huge and Jack will probably blow (another) gasket I will have to listen to his drivel on this as I do every day

      I would rather mentions bits and pieces as it occurs to me and that is why Gretchens sort of censorship idea I do not like. To ‘ban’ seeing or mentioning ‘connections’ or ‘links’ between things that at first might seem to have little or nothing to do with each other…………..well to me it is to kind of enter ‘flat world’ the kind of world for example Phil seems to live in. Vaccines are good, to even doubt the connection between HIV and AIDS is ‘crazy’ all kinds of weak political correctness, only an ‘anti-semite’ could be a ‘holocaust denier’ etc (That last one takes the biscuit you have 2 concepts there that are highly dubious and then they get equated. That to me is an example of very ‘weak’ linking so weak it has no meaning)

      But your questions are good Guru I will keep them in mind and ‘answer’ in fits and starts as I prefer to do. After all I am not writing a ‘book’ which ” for fucks sake is free on the internet’ lol and why don’t you read it and put all your questions to bed

      • jackwaddington says:

        quote:- “But this kind of always comes back to the same place in that rather then look at the merits and demerits of an ‘argument’ the focus comes back on the person making it. “.

        I could well be wrong, however, in my 30 years of therapy that is EXACTLY what I understand is the essence of Primal Therapy. I grant that you next sentence is:- “Of course in a way this is valid”. It is MORE than valid … it is the VERY ESSENCE of how Primal therapy is conducted … as was revealed (very clearly and succinctly, to me, in:- “The Primal Scream”) It’s all about HOW we perceive it. The rest is totally dependent upon how the left lobe views it.

        Once one get’s into integrating the left and right lobe of the brain (the thinking and the feeling aspects) , the only resort, know to man, to permit anyone access to the right lobe is:- by putting it all back to the one on the floor .. the patient.

        If that aspected was avoided we’d be back to the approach that Freudian analysis practiced:- “free association”, which I gather what you seeming ONLY want to do.

        If you are irritated by having it ALL put back to you … then for fuck’s sake get as far away from Primal Therapy as you can, otherwise you’ll be for ever stuck.


        • jackwaddington says:

          Addendum: “Argument” is precisely what Primal Therapy aims to completely get away from That according to Primal Theory is a left lobe phonomin. and is EXACTLY what most of us pursued after being traumatized (the brain being turned inside out as t’were) and the right lobe was forever repressed. Only after a full re-living event, is it permitted to come back into full consciousness.

          It is this lack of access to the repressed feelings that permits the need to argue ones point of view. It’s a sort of justification of our neurotic status quo. I did a great deal of it and was relatively good at it with my peers.

          Once such a devastating event of re-living occurs .. the insights abound and so much more is revealed unto ourselves.

          It is very difficult to be convincing to anyone not having had the same kind of experience to conceive it. And I have done more than more fair share of trying to convince many … mostly failing … but leastways I tried, for whatever reasoning within me, that need exists.


      • tom verzar says:

        Hi Patrick
        You are like your mate, Joop. CRAZY!
        An anti-Semitic bastard.
        You should crawl back to Ireland, where you came from. And stay there.
        You are so full of yourself. Denigrating everyone and anyone on this blog. You are cruel beyond belief, disguising behind a pseudo intellectual façade.
        You bring disrespect to all the Irish I have ever known.
        Hate to say this, but Jack has always been right about you. You never, ever say the “feeling”. You make out that you have no clue, as to what you are feeling. But more likely because you are chicken shit, a mouse, a cry baby. It amazes me why you have been tolerated this long on this blog.
        Go away, stay away. And don’t come back.
        You bring shame onto all these vulnerable people on this blog.

  39. Patrick, How does 3 become 20? I guess the same way 7 becomes 20. You keep talking about truth. But if you know the ” truth” why are you asking me? You already have made clear that your mind is made up. Not to mention I have discussed these things with you in the past and my responses are irrelevant.,I’m not sure you are really listening because you have already decided you know the answers. Your testing me ?? Really? As far as you reading Kollstroms book well even that seems redundant as you have decided this imbecile must be correct. You might want to read his book on crop circles too. You have decided that my telling you the guys a moron is also a conspiracy. The truth is I saw your link, l knew who he was and I said what I thought. Period. You seem to think this guys material is a threat. It’s so far from that. Patrick. You also imply it connects to Primal. Well how are you coming to that conclusion without reading the book? Once again the result comes before the investigation.. I’m not sure why you are going on about censorship. You have said your views. I simply ask that you not go on and on about it. We have spent two days and I just don’t think it’s unreasonable to movee forward now. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      OK Gretchen I can drop this about suicides I mean. It is a horror story to even think about but really if you NEVER come clean it has the tendency to come up again. And you DID say you knew of only 3 and that included ‘attempts’ and I had very PERSONAL expedience with quite a bit more than that. That is a kind of stubborn ‘fact’ you seem to think you can glide or gloss over. I don’t think it is.

      And like anyone’s ‘credibility’ it is not in-exhaustible. So you can seemingly throw stones at the like of Kollerstrom so easily he is an ‘idiot’ and a ‘moron’ etc. I don’t want to get hung up on this guy either he is just one guy and I agree a bit eccentric. I also stumbled into this myself people who know more have known about some of these problems with holocaust ‘stories’ for a long time. (Nobody commented on the link Joop sent about Treblinka – I thought that was interesting and like I said if the credibility of the ‘stories’ fall down in even one aspect the whole structure is in danger of toppling. Another reason ‘censorship’ as threatened here and actually practiced in most
      European countries is a very bad idea IMO. Something as simple as that how could 750,000 people be ‘processed’ in one facility like that well you see there ARE problems with the ‘story’) That book I mentioned and actually the correct title is “The Myth of German Villany” is probably deeper and a lot more historically informed that Kollerstrom, he is more of an intellectual gadfly. But I liked his link I have a weakness for eccentric English people.. To me he is funny and above all a ‘free thinker’ there are not so many nowadays, ‘ideology’ is everywhere. I saw something about ‘crop circles’ but I have no idea what he has to say about them. To me that kind of stuff is pure cuckoo nonsense and if he is taking this seriously I would for sure take him a bit less seriously. But I have to say most all of the stuff I have seen by him in not ‘nonsense’ I agree it is on the edges a bit but at least it is not ‘flat world’ and this has nothing to do with believing the world is flat. It has to do as I said to Guru with this kind of ‘weak’ political correctness I see exemplified by Phil here. A kind of useless middle of the road political correct world

      And Gretchen so what if we have spent 2 days most 2 days here yield next to nothing and what does it mean to ‘move forward’ That is a kind of insidious jargon if people here were REALLY ‘moving forward’ they would not forever and ever be rehasing and saying the SAME things year after year cf Jack about ‘abolishing money’ or ‘sloping plane theory’ or any number of things that are REPEATED verbatim and all like they were fresh and written for the first time. No ‘moving forward’ there why do we have to ‘move forward’ from a very interesting subject we just arrived at? I believe something will be learned and there is no need at all to ‘move forward’ For once I agree with Janov without understanding ‘history’ we are lost………………

      • Patrick says:

        Gretchen as a way to show Kollerstrom was an ‘imbecile’ made a reference to ‘crop circles’ and him. Weill I followed that up and that turns out ALSO to be another example of just trying to ruin his name and reputation. He apparently has written a much praised book simply on the geometry and mathematics involved. He makes no speculations about who did them or why.. From all I can read about it his book was highly praised for it’s beauty and bringing the wonder of mathematics and patters to children. You can get a flavor of it below. Anyway just wanted to clear (including for myself) that up as it is the kind of ‘dis-information’ that is a bit typical and if left to hang around leaves the wrong impression (deliberately?)

        • Patrick says:

          Did I violate some kind of ‘ban’ now by simply mentioning his name? See what I mean by censorship? Censorship is almost always invoked when somebody has something to hide. Makes sense no?

        • jackwaddington says:

          I checked the link and read it. One final statement said it all to me. Quote:- ” but one needs a subscription to access earlier years.” then it went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”.
          I’d rather keep it to mommy, mommy and more mommy 🙂 :).

          Life’s getting way too complex already. I even wonder why the need to go any further than simple arithmetic for most of us. Those, like me, that excelled at math; ok go for it

          I remember so many in my classes, where most of the kids just got their mind boggling eyes glazed over, as soon as we started out on Algebra, Geometry, trigonometry, logarithms, and then Calculus. For the rest; is there really any need to go into all this other stuff????? Especially at the expense of feeling and our ability to adequately and appropriately express them. I D O N ‘ T T H I N K S O … but then that’s me,


          • Patrick says:

            Well maybe the reason he charges for his book it I can imagine it is not cheap to produce a book like that with all kinds of color graphics etc. So I suppose predictably you join the Gretchen Choir in finding fault on this guy………………….thought this is a ‘weak’ one he charges for his book . OMG how awful!!

            Your’s is meanwhile ‘free on the internet’ because it would not be worth the paper it would have written on if it was written on paper. Your first ‘book’ if I remember you ‘charged’ for.though I don’t think you got more than 3 or 4 buyers.if even that. Maybe you can give us some non Gretchen type numbers (actual real numbers) about how many you ‘sold’ and don’t count the 4 I bought to give away to people. Still could not get them to read it. Now you find some ‘plot’ here by this guy to ‘charge’ for his book. Pathetic!

            My guess is if you had any ‘success’ with your ‘book’ (always has to be in quotes)
            you would be like some horrible pompous Winston Churchill of primal…………..squawking away much like him

          • jackwaddington says:

            Correction:- to my first paragraph where I wrote:- then ii went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”. Should have read:- “then I went “Ah! I see …. money money and more money”.

            ‘it’ should have been ‘I’ .


  40. Margaret says:

    > cultivating antagonism..
    > mommy mommy look at me!
    > you wouldn’t slap me would you?
    > broken record, repeating and repeating and repeating…
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      broken record?? these are topics I have not mentioned before (holocaust etc) I only HEARD of this guy Kollerstrom a week ago but how often has we been told of the wondrous effects of ‘abolishing money’. Who is really repeating and repeating. You know I called the ‘retreat’ the ‘repeat’ for a very good and deep reason. As far as ‘reducing’ it all to mommy mommy look at me you might as well keep it to that Margaret as you are not ALLOWED in your country to freely discuss some of these matters.Might as well keep believing everything can be explained by mommy mommy since you don’t have so much choice in the matter.

  41. Joop says:

    Yeah, I can stop. And I will stop hurting people, I got your point Gretchen. Sometimes it’s hard to see things clearly when pain clutters the mind. So I let everybody be, Patrick I suggest you do the same and we can all go our own ways. I’m not kidding and it is easy. Just like when you type a sentence and put a point after the sentence.

    • Patrick says:

      Joop – “going our own ways’ is not really my way. I believe in communication even if difficult and painful to me that is how we progress as human beings. But I am aware it is just my way but since it is I have to honor it and live by it without un-neccerality hurting other people. That of course is not so clear a lot of the time and I must admit when in doubt I tend to charge ahead – that’s just me. I am often surprised how it seems most ‘primal’ people are not that way I thought they would…………….

  42. jackwaddington says:

    Saw this on the internet and wondered if it might be of interest

    Anti-vaccine megachurch hit with measles epidemic, now offering free vaccinations

    An outbreak of the measles at Kenneth Copeland’s Texas megachurch has gotten some attention because (1) measles is something children are generally vaccinated for, these days and (2) Kenneth Copeland is, of course, an anti-vaccine crackpot. In what seems to be yet another bitterly ironic attempt by God to teach noisy religious fundamentalists what-for, the church has thus become the epicenter of a small but worrisome outbreak that has so far infected 10 and resulted in the Department of State Health Services issuing an alert spanning North Texas.
    That has megachurch pastors doing a bit of fancy dancin’, with Pastor Terri Pearson (Copeland’s daughter) walking back their leader’s anti-vaccination stance to explain to the congregation that no, God does not really want your children to contract a potentially dangerous disease that vaccinations have all but licked because duh.


  43. Joop says:

    Well okay, I throw this one in the group then:

    Patrick with ‘going our own ways’ I mean the us and them way. People here are not open to ‘radical ideas’. They get their fancy from Sickmind Fraud and other cooks like Janov has become. They made something fairly simple purposely complicated so how far do you really think you get? If Gretchen and Burger flippin’ Baruch feel they can cut themselves a piece of the pie this way and have followers that allow them too, so be it. And perhaps they are doing good in their own way and help people. Or perhaps they think they do, whatever. There is a lot of hurt and emotions associated with being jewish, obviously and if you touch the subject of the holocaust, which is the ‘crown’ of their millennia of suffering, their ‘summum bonum’ of their suffering, they get hateful and start getting dangerous in their heads. And then they need a therapy. And they find a therapy, a truly healing therapy. A therapy possibly for everybody. And then they fuck that up. Because that’s what they always do. The jews. For everybody. Always. But not for themselves. There, put that in your shofar and smoke it, fuckers. Sometimes people should put you in your place, with pain in my conscience and heart, but fuck it I will straighten out again and be on my merry way. I suggest you all do the same. My apologies, thanks for nothing and this time I will really put a point after the sentence.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Joop: Having known you this is a completely other side of you I never saw before. I am in no way trying to discredit you, but I see in these comments of yours a lot of anger and I do wonder if it is just the tip of some inner iceberg.

      I am not sure how long you have been reading this blog, but I will take this opportunity to repeat (at Patrick’s chagrin), what I feel is the best way to express MY anger, in order to permit getting through it and thence it remaining only a memory thereafter.

      First to own the feeling … in that it belongs to me and is not.some universal “truth” out in the stratosphere. Then after owning it; to sit with myself and express it. My way is to lay down on my bed or a sofa and thrash into with my arms and fist and blow off every expletive I can think of at that moment. It may in some cases, depending on the valance, to go through it several times.

      What I know for me to refrain from is; making it a “blame game”.. For that achieves nothing for me. I cannot change anyone other than myself. The person or thing will remain after my expressing my feeling.

      I do see in these comments of yours as a “Blame Game” and seemingly your attempt to justify yourself through and by it. I hope by whatever means or therapy you do in the future that you are able to transcend a great deal of it.

      So!!! good luck Joop. Jack

  44. Larry says:

    Subscribing. Been away from the computer and from town for 9 days, even out of cell phone tower range for three of the days. As wacky as some of the stuff is that is said here, I surely did miss the relative sanity of this blog community.

  45. Margaret says:

    > and now for something completely different…
    > learning about developmental psychology, just learned a foetus can among a lot of other things also cry in the womb.
    > knew about hickups and thumbsucking and peeing and swallowing, but not about crying!
    > wonder what might make it cry there…

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: Yeah!! I too wonder what it must be crying about … it must be hurting. I have a feeling that I too might have cried in the womb.

      My mother’s father committed suicide whilst my mother was 4 months pregnant with me and she told me many years later when I was in my teens, that she refused to cry and grieve her fathers death, whom she love dearly, because of the baby inside her … me. My feelings I’ve had so far, like womb feelings is that it was way too tight in there … She must have tensed up a lot to not grieve her daddy …that could have a lot of bearing on why I am gay … I didn’t like it in there very much , and perhaps for the amount of crying I still continue to do in the present could account for that.

      Just mentioning that Margaret got me thinking anew about it all. It’s moment like this that I find so valuable about this blog. Thanks for that thought.


  46. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > what you said about being surprised primal people don’t also ‘let it out’ in the same way, is something you should look at.
    > it seems to point at a big misunderstanding you have about expressing your feelings in a straightforward and truthful way.
    > you think the stage of ventilating anger is enough, but that is not the case if the anger always remains directed to substitute targets.
    > if this is adressed with you, you evade the subject by starting about the validity of the matter you are angry about, which subject might indeed be a valid cause but still you escape the real matters you need to adress inside of you if ever you’d want to break through this cycle that does not lead anywhere, although you seem to think it is therapeutical.
    > I am sure you really know this actually, but for some reason rather prefer to comfortably remain in the anger zone, which is what I
    > refer to when saying you cultivate antagonism.
    > looking at the sources, need for example, seems to painful probably.
    > it is sad, we fear the feelings making them seem worse than they really are when finally we allow them.
    > on occasion you do admit knowing there is some act out, but you never seem to do anything with it and mostly almost immediately shift back to ranting about whichever cause has your focus on that given moment.
    > i wish you could find someone to help you through your fear of vulnerability and need and sadness, all those natural human feelings you classify under ‘weakness’ but that were all too real in childhood and need to get their proper attention or otherwise they keep haunting you around in pointless battles all your life.
    > I suppose what I say won’t be heard or will be swiped off the table, but that is up to you.
    > all I can do is make a honest effort of expressing my thoughts at this very moment.
    > we primal people are not ranting because we don’t need to, and most of your insults do not hit target as they do not contain much reality in them at all.
    > there is a Dutch saying that says ‘truth hurts’, well, the opposite can be true as well.
    > not to deny unrightful accusations and insults can be extremely unpleasant if they keep going on, and nobody in his right mind chooses to hang around with someone treating them in an offensive way.
    > I think you are smarter than really deluding yourself you are busy finding the truth, if you take a moment of reflexion, which seems hard for you as you mentioned getting carried away again easily even if those moments of insight start taking place.
    > that’s all I can say, M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – what you say has some ‘truth’ in it of course. But I dunno I don’t feel like addressing it now. All I want to say is ‘feelings’ are not something that go ‘according to plan’ and you and many others in ‘primal’ are sort of always applying the primal grid. This is ‘good’ that is ‘bad’ this is ‘expressing’ a feeling, this is ‘acting out’ a feeling. Things are ‘praised’ and then things are found ‘wanting’. it goes on and on and primal philosopher here does it constantly not that in reality he does but just as a way to ‘find fault’ in especially me. It’s get’s tiring as it is for sure not genuine or truthful. At best it is an exercise in self delusion and self bolstering. Tiring, predictable year after year the SAME stories the SAME ideas. Dead – might as well be buried. I like to think I go where my fancy takes me I trust my fancy or my feeling if you want to use that word. Right now I am fascinated by the holocaust so called and all that it entails. I imagine others might too if they would let themselves. I was interested in vaccines in the spring I have kind of exhausted that now I feel I have discovered something………………..I take the point of what does this thing mean for anyone else, it doesn’t unless they find themselves interested too. If you prefer to sing primal mantras and run through ground that has been ploughed a 1000 times already be my guest but that’s not me. And Margaret I like to think you might have got something from the vaccine discussion I like to think you might not just let vets give you cats their shots over and over and end up with very sick cats. Of course you might not have taken any notice in which case I think it’s your loss. And people can talk about anything and every thing there are interested in well maybe except the holocaust it just if we are limited to the primal grid well to me that lifeless indeed.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Quote:- “But I dunno I don’t feel like addressing it now.” My guess is that you will now considered that you have now addressed it, and will NEVER never address it … as is your wont.


  47. Margaret says:

    > Patrick, if you run into the same remarks over and over, I see it as a sign you are stuck in the same behaviour over and over..
    > you say feelings don’t go according to plan, but in your case it is more a cause of letting your old feelings take over and direct your behaviour into a repetitive act out instead of taking time to focus on the feeling and working your way into it.
    > nobody ever said there was no work involved in unraveling that old pain.
    > it does take determination and courage and most of all honesty.
    > and hey, you can think what you like about me and my cats and your influence.
    > if anything it s tiresome it is your stubbornness to stick your head in the ground as to how you lead your own life and bother us with your struggle that can never really achieve anything as it is not even clear what you want from us.
    > or did you want to become some kind of guru with a herd of meek followers believing and swallowing everything you come up with?
    > not even you can really be serious about that.
    > and please don’t give us the excuse me bullshit of fighting for righteous causes as I haven’t seen you do any of that in any factual and concrete way.
    > even to the demonstration you once went to you went as an observer.
    > so if you are fooling someone, it is only one person I am afraid.
    > M

  48. Patrick says:

    I realize now the way I find myself referring to Gretchen without even wanting to I am pissed at her………………..pissed at the gall and straightforward barefaced lying about the suicides. Things I know personally ONLY TOO WELL I am told ‘never happened’. Though PR man seems to have found an ‘out’ Gretchen was only talking about people who killed themselves in the actual building the the PI was in!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. That’s a good one and a typical crazy PR move from PR man. What do you have to say about that Gretchen? Do you agree with PR man on this?

    I am pretty sure everyone here kind of agree that Joop is ‘crazy’ for the stuff he says and it would not be my way of talking. But you know ‘crazy’ is sometimes crazily correct. He mentions the inability to tell the truth well what are we dealing with here? So if someone is pissing on my leg and telling me it’s raining well once I find that out would I trust them about say the holocaust so called that happened 70 years ago? NO I would not since I can’t trust them with stuff I KNOW first hand from very personal and painful experience. Meanwhile I will delve into and investigate what people I sort of do trust have to say……………and ignore all the pathetic attempts to ‘discredit’ him (like he charges for his book unlike PR man who since he can get no buyers might as well ‘abolish money’)

    BTW ‘pissing on my leg and telling me it is raining’ could be the motto of Janov. I think that fits pretty much………….Welcome to this great new therapy where when someone who is pissing on your leg you will think it’s raining…………………..

  49. Otto Codingian says:

    i am alive. That’s it. I have too many bills and sadnesses that i can conveniently overwhelm myself with. Too much to say and type, but my fingers are numb from diabetes. At least i finally got meds and bloodsugar is down. Whatever. dying dogs and cats on morphine. It remains hotter in October than it really has a right to, and the a/c is also dying. Holidays coming again and the 2 adult kids are still estranged, and I defer trying to be a mediator because I will probably make things worse. Lady Z thinks I hate her but she is just trying new hormone regimen and acts like an arugmentative child, which she did acted like for the first 35 years of our marriage, and which I fooled myself into thinking that was the end of it. At least therapy got me to realizing that I wasn’t always the bad guy. If I can make it through the holiday weekend, I will be back at work where i can numb myself with meaningless distracting tasks. I will never be able to afford therapy again, which was often a source of camaraderie for me, even though I am too autistic to really embrace the human race.

    • Sylvia says:

      Otto, hang in there. My dad use to say: if you find yourself at the end of your rope, tie a knot and hang on. Glad you have your sugar level straightened out. And good luck at work.

      • Sylvia says:

        Are there not some sort of resources available to Otto beings he was a patient at the institute? Hard to watch someone suffer if there is a solution like buddying or other help.

        • Patrick says:

          Sylvia – you would think there would be wouldn’t you? And you probably would especially think that since you have never been to the PI. But Otto gives a lot of reality in his posts and the little I have seen of you here you seem to have ‘gotten over’ things a lot better than most ‘professional primallers’ including a lot of people here.I congratulate you whatever good instincts you had or maybe just circumstances that kept you away from ‘professional’ therapy. You seem all the better for it.

        • Larry says:

          Sylvia, the onus to get healthy is on the person, whether to get a buddy or to get therapy. This blog is a resource that wasn’t available to Otto nor anyone else 6 years ago. I hope it is helpful to him. Sometimes to end one’s suffering difficult life choices need to be made, such as changing jobs, or directly addressing problems in a marriage, or committing to doing therapy and following through with it. Otherwise the person’s suffering goes on to the end of time and no one can really do much to alleviate it.

    • Sandy says:

      Otto, hats off to you for the strength you have to hang on through the drudgery and profound unhappiness you are in. Sandy.

  50. Margaret says:

    > I robably should not go into this, but hey it is sunday afternoon and I feel like it.
    > as far as all I have read about the crop circles, is they are made by people starting at a certain point, with wooden boards or something, working their way around in spirals etc.
    > now it seems fairly easy but not very honest to steal the maths that lay at the base of say sunflowers seed positions or galaxies spiraling or any other spiral and then ‘apply’ it to the crop circles and pretend to have made a smart observation..
    > boy, this is really starting to be ridiculous here, haha, funny really, specially as a means to prove that guy’s credibility..
    > and no, I don’t need to read that book first, thanks, but maybe you can also find some books about ufo’s he wrote?
    > deep down I dream of meeting one, really, not kidding, but well, I am smiling to be honest..
    > but reading the book about cosmology and the numbers inthere would make it kind of a stupid assumption we would be the only living beings on this planet in that vast universe.
    > so well, there is one fascinating subject for me, and haha, all those obductions by aliens, and the memories of laying on a hard table, strange creatures with huge eyes looking down on you and poking in you, well, sounds kind of primal doesn’t it?
    > most of those were obducted while sleeping, sounds like some kind of primalish dream in some cases, who knows.
    > I remember by coincidennce watching such a testimony together with some other fellow primalers, on tv.
    > , and we al had the same reaction, the guy or was it a girl, was describing some kind of primal disconnected memory, felt very obvious.
    > easy to wipe off the table, but well, to me it sounded like a high probability at least. higher than the obduction to a ufo for sure..
    > but hey, outer space is also there and intriguing and fascinating.
    > kind of a consolation as well, if we really mess up and ruin this planet, which i certainly hope not, although we are going towards it, there is plenty more where this came from as they would say on the far side or in the furry fabulous freak brothers. that was the general of the cockroaches reply every time a lieutenant reported to him how many batallions of roaches were stamped upon by fat Freddy or devoured by fat Freddy’s cat, smiley, oh well, plenty more where those came from! and finally the cockroaches secret superwweapon turned out to be fertility pills, haha!
    > loved those comics!! .
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret,I don’t think this guy Kollerstom’s ideas are worth at all looking into just from what I’ve beenhearing of them here. What also counts for me is who is making the recommendation.I’m more interested in ideas which have at least a little chance of being true.Phil Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2015 19:41:16 +0000 To:

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – it seems you join the Amen Corner or the Choir in knocking Kollerstrom. What in the hell is wrong with applying maths from say galaxies to something else like crop circles. Maybe the people who made the crop circles had something like that in mind. Have you thought of that?. I have no idea but it is almost comical to see people falling all over each other to ‘destroy’ this guy. Now you come in the next thing you might start applying statistics to it. For fuck’s sake leave the guy alone he is interesting for sure to me, he is eccentric I would agree but thank God for ‘eccentric’ and I would take it any day over the kind of ‘reality’ Phil promotes and seem to believe in. It’s like anyone a bit ‘different’ with a bit of flair you can’t wait to shoot him down but of course not to forget the real agenda is he is a ‘holocaust doubter’ so all Hell in un-leashed on him. And Margaret you are just a Yes woman in this situation. I don’t like it.

  51. Margaret says:

    > this might appear too late as Jack might hve replied already, but he did not say the actual building of the PI, I think he meant the actual PI as opposed to the former one before it split up.
    > sloppy reading ?

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret here is the quote from Jack:

      “My take on the 3 v 20 suicides. I feel that the three Gretchen was referring to were the 3 that took place at the Institute building”

      Well what do you think he means? And if you actually want to know why don’t you ask HIM? Rather than making your weak tit-for-tat with me. Nothing sloppy in what I was doing I was just quoting him. Also you know he loves to ‘correct’ me well he did not correct me on that. I am ‘corrected’ on just about everything and do you think he would let that go? But whatever now you have the quote tell what do you think he means?

      It was always the PI even so when it ‘split up’ it remained the PI but Janov got to do so called ‘training’ in reality a dodge to keep doing therapy. In any case Gretchen was there all along and it should be obvious what period I was referring to. But full marks for more ‘creativity’ in the explanations you and Jack come up with. It sound like something the Propoganda Ministry of Communism might come up with but hey you tried..

  52. Otto Codingian says:

    House MD.Season 3. Episode 12, 12 minutes in. I don’t know why this portion always gets me, about this rape victim, but I think it is a trust thing. She wants House, trusts him. She FEELS safe with him, even though he is a misanthrope.

  53. Otto Codingian says:

    Like frantically clutching at a life saver in the middle of a roiling stormy ocean, as the ship sinks in the distance.

  54. Patrick says:

    I have almost finished the stunning to me at least book “The Myth of German Villany” and one thing is for sure there was a ‘holocaust’ all right on hundreds of German cities wiped out from the air with deliberate bombing of civilians. Dresden a town nothing to do with war it is estimated around 300,000 died mostly just burned to death. That is one of the more dramatic ones there were many more. Everyone knows about Nakasaki and Hiroshima which was really just more of the same the the ante upped with nukes

    So all of this I see so different now……………..the Allied commuted horrific war crimes I guess they needed to conclusively shift the blame on that before the bodies were cold so to speak. And they have kept it up since. To the point it is ‘illegal’ pretty much to even think out loud about it. If anyone is truly interested they might read that book the author is Benton Bradberry. It has shown me so much I did not know before. In that way Kollerstrom is irrelevant he just caught my attention with his quirky style. Many other historians know the same and I would like to think it is able to come out a bit though I am not hopeful. This may already be getting me in trouble so maybe I should shut up. Hard for me though.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Quote: “maybe I should shut up. Hard for me though.” I would have though that was worth investigating … but I don’t think there is a book on the matter. So! investigating might rquire a new way of thinking … yeah??? but then could entail even more difficulty for you.


  55. Otto Codingian says:

    like Cody the dog with his eyes glued to the veterinarian, begging her to save his life.

  56. Patrick, First of all I don’t think anyone said Joop was crazy did they? I’m not sure what made you say that but I think you should stick with how you feel about him., Actually I really appreciated his first response to what I wrote., Patrick you keep crying that you are censored- you have said how you feel, even as recently as your last post so what’s the problem? I’m not sure what you want., if you want this to be the main issue discussed here well, I think it’s unlikely and I tend to think as well that most people will not be agreeing with you. If you want either of those two things there are denier blogs and neo nazi blogs where you can spend days talking about this stuff to your hearts content. I’m not sure why you are so offended or outraged that I think Kollerstrom is a fool umless you just can’t handle someone having an opinion that is different than yours. Otherwise what difference does it make? You see it your way and I have my opinion. I do hope he’s right about alchemy however as we could all use a little gold about now! As for your discussion about suicide in Primal or any other therapy for that mater … I don’t owe you a discussion. Still, myself and many others on the blog did in fact indulge that discussion. More than once in fact. You now say you are the holder of the truth, everyone else is either lying or wrong. So what’s to discuss? Why not just say what you really want? You seem to feel you know something no one else on earth is smart enough to figure out. Whether it be about the Holocaust ,therapy ,vaccines, diet or any number of things you and only you know the truth. I have never met anyone so confident while being so wrong. Unfortunately I also don’t think you were entirely honest with the names you threw out on your post or for that matter in saying that these are people you were personally involved with , really Patrick? I do see you as a person in a lot of pain but your way of dealing with it just leaves no room for anyone else’s pain or opinions. At this point I feel I have to say what I see in fairness to the other members of the blog. Since the Internet is so much a part of most of our lives now there is of course language to address the things that are pretty exclusive to using the Internet or participating in blogs or forums. With that in mind you are feeling a bit like a troll Patrick. I just don’t think you really care that much about the issues you go on and on about, I really don’t. You can look it up in Urban Dictionary. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      OK Grechen – I will take a few points starting at the top. You are a twisting slick one! All I said is I THOUGHT people might find what Joop said a bit ‘crazy’ and I was saying hold on a minute I don’t think it actually is. Am I not saying how I feel? Jeez you are getting like Jack – anything to ‘win’ a point.;Is that a ‘primal’ thing or maybe dare we say it a “:Jewish” thing whatever maybe same difference in practice

      OK I am not ‘censored’ or at least so far so I appreciate that as I keep saying you have been very good on that. It’s just you did signal that might be changing so anyway maybe it’s not. I don’t like your ‘lumping’ me with neo-Nazi white supremacist whatever. The same as you and others do to Kollerstrom he was a Green Party member a Leftist who opposed the Iraq War etc etc. Again an attempt to damn by association. Not an honest way of discussing things I would have expected more of you but maybe I over estimate you. In the end you use all the familiar ‘dirty tricks’. Kollerstorm and me are far from some so called neo-nazi whatever that is supposed to mean I am a ‘greenie’ if anything in politics but if I use my head and come to some different conclusions to the politically correct one well then dump me into some category of craziness and badness. I see your trickery there and I am not buying it.

      So now having failed to tar Kollerstrom with saying he said we did not go to the moon (he thinks we did) and then then saying Saddam Hussein was still alive (he did not ever say that) then you implied something irrational and funky about ‘crop circles’ I looked into that to day (nothing you can tar with there – actually a quite nice and well regarded book) now you try another tack – alchemy. I just looked it up he is a chemist (that’s how he knows the ‘gas chambers’ were NOT used for killinf people they were used for de-lousing clothes etc AND he proves it. THAT must be hard for you to take and hard to ”forgive”), he is a chemist as as far as I can tell is playing around with chemicals in an interesting way. Alchemy might be considered crazy but it was the beginning of chemistry and actually in the nuclear age one element CAN be transmuted into another. So just another attempted cheap shot from you there. What will you try next………… God you ARE busy though trying to ‘discredit’ this guy. Give it a break I told you he was a bit eccentric I only wish we all were as ‘eccentric’ and as creative and as observant. This is a case of little minds trying to drag someone down. But it does prove Joop’s point ‘doubt’ the so called holocaust and people become dangerous in their minds!

      About the suicides are you actually saying I am LYING about those people? That’s bullshit but again why would someone just accuse someone of ‘lying’ like that based on nothing…………(could it be because they ‘lie’ so easily themselves – yes) ask me ANYTHING about any of those names and I can and will fill in anything you want to know. That’s disgusting you would even try a rotten implication like that. Go on ask me about any of them, ask me how I knew or how well I know Peter Crummy, Eleanor, Greg, Moira, Marina, Lynn Johnson Peter (Swedish) ANY of them. I will not let you slip and slide here Gretchen. That’s a bunch of crap. You have already dug yourself a hole about there being only 3………………first rule if you want to get out of a hole is stop digging!………..and if you really want to get out start being honest about it.

      I would not say I am a ‘troll’ I am someone who has spent a lifetime associated with primal and I do not like certain things about it and I am speaking up about it. That simple and I do appreciate the space.To me ‘primal’ has been sort of ‘hijacked’ by what?……………..Joop might say by “Jews” I would not put it exactly like that but by a “Jewish” spirit yes I would go that far…………..

      • jackwaddington says:

        The first and foremost aspect about this last post of yours is it’s length. I am certain that everyone on the blog will see it as a MAJOR DEFENSIVE ACT. If indeed you still think this is an expression of your feeling I suggest RE-READING “The Primal Scream” I feel and I suspect others also feel YOU ARE THE ONE TWISTING FACTS OUT OF SHAPE to suit your Argument. As I see it it’s not flying by whomever ones logic you purport to support.

        first quote:- ” I don’t like your ‘lumping’ me with neo-Nazi white supremacist whatever” Seems strange since you’ve spent a great deal of your time recently on this blog supporting the Nazi regime neo Nazis and white supremacists ideology … leastways for gassing people … only lice infested clothing. So does this not suggest that there is some deeper feeling within you that the Nazis were indeed vicious??????? You have also in the past here on this blog been upset at being associated with Anti-semites. Why the upsetness??? from your recent posts you seem to agree with most of these people.

        Second quote:- “The same as you and others do to Kollerstrom ” If indeed you quite like the guy, why are you so, so upset that others call him bad names by your reckoning. If you like him Ok leave it at that. Does it matter what others think or say of him????

        third quote:- ” ‘gas chambers’ were NOT used for killin[f]g people they were used for de-lousing clothes etc AND he proves it. THAT must be hard for you to take and hard to ”forgive”), ” Can’t you permit Gretchen to have her own opinion on the matter?? What’s with you trying to prove her opinion invalid?????

        fourth quote:- “my God you ARE busy though trying to ‘discredit’ this guy. Give it a break ” I suggest you take your own advice here, and give this whole ‘RANT’ of yours a break. Seems you are so, so preoccupied to prove your point. My take,.for what it’s worth, is you are not succeeding.

        Fifth quote:- “About the suicides are you actually saying I am LYING about those people? ” My take:- NO … just that you are twisting the situation to suggest that the Primal Institute and by inference Primal Therapy was responsible for their suicidal tendency and ultimate outcome. Taking little account of my suggestion that these people arrived at the Institute door with their suicidal tendency. You seemingly ONLY WANT TO BLAME it seems the Institute for their deaths. There are institutions out there, who put on great efforts to prevent suicides from happening and for the most part fail. It’s a complex situation for any organization, however sincere and devoted, to resolve the suicide from making that final decision.

        Sixth quote:- “I would not say I am a ‘troll’ ” BUT that should not deprive others from feeling that you are. For someone that has spend a great deal of time and effort in designating me with a great many things … it seems somewhat hypocritical of that same person when someone else designates from their perspective; what they see you as. Accept that is their feeling about you. You saying you are not; proves nothing … rather in-effect actually re-enforces the notion.

        In the end I am sure you’ll have some name to call me. I will put it down to your “spin” and leave it at that.


      • Larry says:

        People are killing themselves all over the place. I’d expect in a therapy that deals with very troubled people, there’d be a higher incidence of suicides than there is in the average population, sadly and tragically. I’d also expect many have been saved from suicide by the therapy. I’ve read some of them say so in the primal literature.

        In your mind, what is a “Jewish” spirit? Personally I don’t think there is such a thing, based on the people that I know, any more than there is a Ukranian, Chinese, British,. American, Spanish or Aboriginal spirit. I would say there are norms of behaviour and outlook imbued in people by the culture and religion they grew up with. A chinese person born and raised in China will have a different behaviour set and outlook than a chinese person born and raised in Canada. On the radio I’ve heard adults who grew up in Canada as children of immigrants, talk about the differences between themselves and their parents who grew up in a different country and culture.

        More than anything else, your thinking seems to be driven by anger and fear which you are unwilling to explore. I can’t take your criticisms of Primal Therapy seriously when you’ve not attempted the therapy. The few times you’ve been in group and I’ve been in the same group with you I heard you refuse to do it. It seems to me you want a version of Primal Therapy that bypasses the pain, an oxymoron.

        Through all your years writing essentially the same thing over and over on the blog what I see is that you are driven by pain that you refuse to deal with and you blame the therapy for it. I feel sad when I think that the attention you get on the blog is the only thing you’re able to let yourself get from the therapy.

        • Patrick says:

          Larry – and you not ‘essentially saying the same thing over and over?’ I am always stuck by how ‘samey’ you are…………….

        • jackwaddington says:

          Larry: Wow! You put me to shame. I thought that was a very balanced approach and response to Patrick. By the way when I turned of the lights last night there was no glow except an inner glow, but then I always loved myself..

          Gretchen: I love the sunshine and clear blue skies, but I agree this relentless heat has gotten the better of both of us. Chest pains? I’m not sure, at this stage of life there are bits of pains all over … nothing to go to see a doctor about as I see it … but my Jimbo believes in all that medical stuff; after all it was his livelihood for most of his working life.

          My relating the story was meant to add a bit of fun to the blog. Seems it did not achieve that except to me.

          Patrick: I think Hitler made his intentions quite clear in his book “Mien Kampf” and in any event why did he round up Jews and others and cart them off to concentration camps???? I doubt it was for the purpose of delousing them. Many that were interned lived to tell their tale. All wars are an atrocity as far as I’m concerned I just feel you have become a sad loser. 😦 😦 .


          • Larry says:

            Jack I much enjoyed your story. It was brilliantly written, entertaining, and informed us what is going on with your health. Thank you for it.

          • Patrick says:

            Larry does not put you to shame you shame yourself and everyday at least every day I put something on here. You are so ‘resolved’ yet you cannot seem to help yourself bagging on every chance you get or even don’t get. Compulsive and driven……………………and driven to be just a objectionable asshole. Come to think of you are a ‘troll’ to me and all the time. You may have the majority on your side…………….means nothing to me I think I can handle a ‘mob’

        • Larry says:

          Patrick you’ve not answered my question.

          I’ve got to know you through the blog, from when you first came on it many years ago, and from the one or two retreats and post-groups you’ve been to and I was at with you. In all that time what I’ve seen is your refusal to do the therapy and your expression of your refusal. From what you’ve said and written you’ve made it apparent to me that you don’t even grasp how the therapy works.

          For most of us, because we live away from the primal community and in person groups and session, this blog is, or was, the next best opportunity for us to support and help each other to explore and understand our behaviour, even when it sometimes lead to uncomfortable difficult interaction. This blog is free therapy for anyone. It’s an incredible, generous resource. The therapeutic vibe is it’s heart, without which this blog would fizzle out.

          But all you do is act out here. It’s not healthy for you, nor helpful that we condone it. In my mind I stopped condoning it a year or two ago. I no longer read your comments because they rarely say anything meaningful, nor do I react to you because your thinking is mostly without logical informative form or substance but is mostly propelled your pain which you never attempt to address. It is mainly attention that you seek and the only way you’ve found to reliably get it is through provoking people. You are addicted to being provocative. The addiction is not good for you, nor is it good for you that we enable it.

          You avoid most attempts at discourse to try to get to know and understand you. Typically, you’ve not replied to my asking you to explain what you mean by your term, “a Jewish spirit”.

          I’ve arrived at the feeling that by our reacting to your provocations on the blog we are enabling you to perpetuate the unhealthy act out you use to get attention. I feel that for your own good you should be banned from the blog, until and in the hope that you will at some point attempt a healthier way of relating to people and of cultivating the human connection we all need.

          • Patrick says:

            Well you have it all ‘explained’ to your own satisfaction Father Larry, or Brother Larry or Pastor Larry. That’s fine but you way in not my way never has never will be. I am very different to you which actually is ok we are all individuals aren’t we?

  57. Sylvia, yes there are! Gretchen

  58. jackwaddington says:

    Some days ago my Jimbo, pursuaded me to book and appointmet with my cardiologist since on getting out of bed at 6:30 am each morning and getting washed and dressed I did feel some minor chest pain. Jim, being a medical imaging tech, panicked a little thinking I might be on the way out. I didn’t think so as of yet; but demured to his better knowledge on medical matters.

    An appointment was set up and the cardiologist: using her stethoscope did hear some rumblings going on inside the chest cavity, but could not be sure what was the cause … so she set me up for a nuclear stress test and another echo cardiogram. One or both of these would (presumably) decide if I had a heart or not as I had informed the cardiologist that there are some out there who were totally convimced I did not have one. She conceded that the stethescope was not a reliable indicator which I could take back to my fellow detractors.

    Friday I duely attended the nuclear medical imaging facility and was made radio active. Had I exploded at this moment I might have blown away half of West LA. Then after a requisit wait was put under a imaging tomography scanner that sliced and diced my chest region to see if there was something relating to an organ that might meet the specicatioons of a beating thing. That afternoon I was asked to go in the following morning (yesterday) to be made radio active again, but this time without stress bearing medication. Supposedly this time to see if the slicing of that piece of meat looked like a heart.

    Yesterday afternoon the caridoilgist rang me to say yes that it looked like a heart and was sort of normal. (whatever normal is susposed to mean) So!!! to all my detractors I am duely informing you that It seems I am sort of human … in some maybe remote sort of way.


    • Larry says:

      Good to know, Jack, though I never doubted it. Do you glow in the dark now, too. 🙂

      • jackwaddington says:

        Larry: not sure, but now you mention it as soon as I turn of the lights off, I’ll see if there is something glowing in the dark. I suspicious that I’m still radio active, and I’ll let you know … so you can keep your distance. According to my Jimbo the half life of the stuff is supposed to be 12 hours.

        Not sure what my half life is supposed to be but, suspect I’ve past the half way mark. boo hoo 😦 😦


    • Sandy says:

      Jack, I’m glad to hear your ticker is still kicking.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Sandy: Well it seems that piece of meat inside the chest cavity that got sliced and diced; ticks on relentlessly. Whether tis a heart or some other organ playing some hymn in there is questionable … by some. Whatever!! Thanks for your recognition that I’m still kicking. I gather from my mother’s account that I was quite a kicker at even that stage of development inside her.


  59. Jack, So what do they think caused the chest pains? Personally I don’t think this relentless heat is helping anyone. I suddenly felt sick tonight and now I think it was dehydration. We all have to be careful to drink extra water right now! G.

  60. Patrick, I will only comment on your last couple of sentences as I really think they are the most revealing of all. Your distain and contempt for Jews in this case would make it impossible for you to objectively study the history of pretty much anything really. I know that is impossible for you to grasp at this point. This is really ugly stuff if you ask me. Really ugly. G.

    • Patrick says:

      …………….and that is really opportunistic and clever ‘spinning’ by you Gretchen not that I expect that to be ‘understood’ here. Mind you it’s no different than what goes on in ‘regular’ society a lot of the time. So congratulations once again you have shown yourself (PI) as being utterly ‘conventional’ and to represent no real ‘alternative’ to anything. No ‘free thinking’ there much and the ‘state’ of a lot of your patients is reflected in that……………..

  61. Sandy says:

    Scroll scroll scroll. I was getting exasperated having to scroll scroll through people struggling with the provoking antagonism talk. And I’m thinking “why do people spend all his time struggling with it?” Well, actually I do know. I spent hours and years trying to struggle with my Dad’s crazy talk. Them French or those Americans or the Irish, women of any descent, Muslims was his most recent. His favourite hate group were Aboriginals. He even hated South Africans. That one confused me because they had Apartheid- I thought he’d’ve loved them for that. Blah blah blah. I just want to shout at my computer screen ” give it up! You can’t reason with madness!”. OK so it’s teen Sandy I’m shouting at. Back to the future now…

    For all I know you’re all saying brilliant things but I don’t read it because I scroll and scroll and scroll looking to relate. Then I walk away for weeks, come back to see if there is any change…scroll scroll scroll…nope. I’m ready to give up but I can’t. I live alone and I cancelled my pain killer…er…cable tv. I need you guys! All kidding aside it boils down to this: this blog is monopolized with it and that’s ok. Clearly the majority of blog members like and are engaged with this talk. Controversy works well to draw out a lot of people- I get that. But I can’t relate or engage with it so I don’t belong on his blog. Did somebody mention that there are other Primal blogs? If any of you know of these can you please let me know? Sandy.

    • Phil says:

      Sandy,There is another primal forum, the Primal Support Group (PSG), a Yahoo group.If you send me an email at I will send you a link to join.But I am hoping the controversy will calm down here. I think what you say is true, that provocative and antagonistic messages doprovoke discussion. But I think the majority of members wish it would stop.I have to say I find it difficult to talk about what goes on with me as I’mafraid I won’t be understood. It’s easier for me to jump into this kind of debate.In my family we would mainly talk about irreverent stuff like politics,foreign affairs, history, and anything else but what was going on with us. Also, I’m triggered by people who seem to be rigidly stuck with their ideasand attitudes, so I can relate to what you say about your father.Phil

      Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 16:54:14 +0000 To:

    • Larry says:

      Wow! That’s the most you’ve ever written here. Good for you!

  62. Margaret says:

    > hi Phil, before I read the rest of this mornings 24 comments, I was joking, you would not think I’d be interested in reading any of Collarstrongs work do you??
    > but hey, I am interested in news like now the water on Mars and all it may imply, find that fascinating..
    > not that I would ever turn to Collarstrong for finding out stuff..
    > M

  63. Margaret says:

    > next comment, 25 to go now as they seem to be coming in faster than I can read and reply.
    > now htis is really geting hilarious, I should stay out of the big guys stuff as I am well, ‘just a woman’? hahahaha!
    > M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: Very funny … I laughed out loud … so much so Jimbo wanted to know what was so funny..


      • Patrick says:

        Yeah that’s SO funny right I guess if you are full of hate and spite (towards me) just about ANYTHING might be funny………………

        • jackwaddington says:

          I don’t hate you … I just love poking you … it’s such fun for me. I sure don’t want you banned, that’d deprive me of so much fun.

          On second thoughts … what would YOU have me do towards you? Your prior suggestion has been:- “leave me alone”

          I find that hard since you are forever in this nick of the woods spreading your ******** around. You are difficult for me to ignore.


  64. Margaret says:

    > could someone please do me the favour to copypaste here the difinition of the urban dictionary for the use of ‘troll’?
    > I can imagine some options but am curious to hear the exact definition, and don’t feel able to track it down with my screenreader..
    > just a woman, haha, am still chuckling about that, hi Sandy and Sylvia and Gretchen, my fellow just women, hahaha, htis was more saying than anything to me really, talk about a primitive mindset!
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret here is the top definition I found for troll in the urban dictionary:One who posts a deliberately provocative message to a newsgroup or message board with the intention of causing maximum disruption and argument. Phil Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2015 17:10:54 +0000 To:

      • Sandy says:

        Buahh haa haa good one, Phil! Good one!

        • Patrick says:

          I don’t particularly think it is such a ‘good one’ at least as applied to me. Of course now that Gretchen has used it it might seem like great fun to bag on me and she gives the message that is ok which I can ‘understand’ since she totally failed to ‘explain’ herself. Now she turns me over to the mob. I can handle that I hope.

          Put it this way if I go on Dr Kruse’s blog and go on about primal therapy, and give him books which he reads and mention it at meeting does he consider me a ‘troll’ He doesn’t because he has an open mind and is smart. Here if I put forward something a bit different I am called a ‘troll’ which I also ‘understand’ since primal as now constituted is basically a kind of degenerated religious ‘sect’ where they see anything ‘different’ as a threat which even goes back to a “Jewish” spirit………………the spirit of feeling persecution and fear of annihilation. That might be a bit of a leap buy hey it’s what occurs to me.This ‘spirit’ finds many forms so there Larry that is a little bit I don’t feel like sitting down and answering you the way YOU want me to answer

  65. Patrick says:

    All of this crap I talk about did not just happen in ‘history’ it is very much alive right now today. That is the only reason I got interested in ‘history’ how can this kind of behavior be explained. And actually history is somewhat useful especially in one is lucky to read books that are not propoganda

  66. If life is a zero-sum game where one person makes money only because another person loses or spends money, does this mean that hugely successful people are simply gigantic parasites on society on a certain level?

    A quick example would be Wal-Mart, where many tens of thousands of Main Street businesses were closed down as a byproduct of the company’s success, so the parasitic side of it would be the ruination of many small mom-and-pop businesses.

    Or, when I see a giant Powerball winner on a billboard. Oh, look! Joan G. of Whatchamacallit, Michigan just won $200 million! Does that big billboard point out the 150 million people who bought a $2 ticket and lost?

    Or how about Dell computers? Their key to success in the beginning was making clones of IBM computers with cheaper parts. Saves the customer money, but drove a lot of IBM retailers out of business, shrinking their families and kids budgets that much further in the process.

    Any thoughts? Are successful people really just a hidden breed of parasite on the common man on a certain level that’s not well understood or appreciated by society?

    • Larry says:

      UG, we don’t all have the same skill sets and abilities. We try to focus our energies and talents on what we do best. We barter and trade the goods and services we produce through our talents for what we want that other people provide. We agree on the rules of trade or we don’t enter into the trade if we can help it. If trade between two parties is fair and to mutual benefit, everyone is successful. If trade is forced upon one party to the much greater advantage of the other, then maybe that is an example of a stronger party parasitising a weaker one.

      According to the book “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man”, the US propped up dictatorships in weak but resource rich third world countries in order to get their resources cheap. If the accounts in the book are true, then in a sense the US is a successful parasite. So is Canada in how it invaded and successfully forced the aboriginals to trade away their claim to all of their land.

      Just responding with my opinion because I like you and I have some time today. But I don’t see how this goes anywhere.

      • Larry:
        I just want to respond to one sentence you wrote; everything else sounded reasonable:
        If trade between two parties is fair and to mutual benefit, everyone is successful.

        What if one of the parties doesn’t know all of the particulars of a trade, where something may appear beneficial in the immediate term, but has a severe cost over the longer term to one of the parties involved? If I had more time to think about this, I could come up with some good examples….

        But…here’s a more important part….What if the trade is a mutual benefit to two parties, but is harmful to a third party, and that third party is helpless to do anything about it? Example being Wal-Mart or Dell again. Sure, the company makes a profit and the customer gets a cheap product, but the third party is the small mom-and-pop retailer that loses business and suffers a lower quality of life without the power to change the situation (indirectly there feels like some “forceful parasitism” is being done here only to outsiders).

        The above is an excellent example of “negative externality”.

        Yes, this is just coffee shop chat…but I do have unresolved….errr….”feelings” to work with here as well, I guess.

        My gut says the parasitism definition for me is broader than your own, Larry,

  67. Larry brought up the North American indigenous peoples’ land being taken away from them by us, the European descendants. I don’t know if these population numbers are accurate, yet they are the best I can muster: 60 million people lived in Europe during Columbus’ time (density of 30 people per square mile) and …more uncertainly…8 million Natives lived in America around 1492 (density of only 2.5 people per square mile).

    At the time this means Europe had a population density roughly 12 times as tightly packed as Native America in the 1490’s. Now obviously I am against the idea of genocide of the Natives, yet I wonder if the Europeans were simply following a natural instinct in search of more living space?

    As a more abstract conception: If I had a big plot of land of 1,000 square miles with only 2,500 people on it (2.5 people per square mile like the Natives), and my neighbors had the same sized plot of land with 30,000 people on it (30 people per square mile like the Europeans), wouldn’t there be a huge disparity in “breathing and roaming space” for these two populations?

    Sure, I could get pissed off at my neighbors with 30,000 European people making more room for themselves coming onto my land. I could legitimately say they are parasites feeding off “my” Native natural beautiful land, but couldn’t I also be considered a parasite for harboring the idea that my European neighbors should be tightly squeezed on their plot of land to begin with while I enjoyed spread-out Native open spaces?

  68. Margaret says:

    > Sandy,
    > you are absolutely right!
    > it sounds like most of us are now running out of patience.
    > I have once before tried putting up a vote to get him off the blog, and immediatly vote him off again, even for a few months would be a relief, if that can make you stay here.
    > even regardless of your precious presence I am still fed up really with how things keep getting out of hand and the blog is indeed invaded by craziness and there is hardly any room anymore because of all the verbal diarrhea.
    > we have all tried to reason, and I think it is indeed time now to put some boundaries as that seems to be what Patrick is searching for, how far he can go, stretching and stretching and stretching and I think we have a full right now to say it is enough.
    > my vote is there in any case, with a clear conscience as it has nothing to do with censorship really. mental hygiene and common sense and respect and regard for the vast majority of the group members.
    > not necessarily a forever ban, but some boundaries, an even lighter version of the rules of the other blog. in fact, and those rules seem fine to me as well really.
    > M

    • Sandy says:

      In response to what you said “even for a few months would be a relief, if that can make you stay here.” If one was to be voted off for the collective’s sake I would agree, but certainly not just for the sake of keeping me here. Thanks for calling my presence precious however, I know I’m not the only that goes away on account of the toxicity that Patrick brings here. Which is too bad because the more people participating, the more diverse the input, the more there is for everyone to relate to in their own way…at least that’s my theory for today.

      • Patrick says:

        Oh your’s so p-p-precious……………I did say when I put up that Kollerstrom video I would probably (be made to) ‘regret’ it. Do I regret it I suppose so in a way but like the man himself said for all the fuss and all the upset nobody has commented on the ‘reality’ of what he has said much at all. Gretchen set the tone on that one with the ‘moron’ and ‘imbecile’ remarks and then of course people feel fine falling all over themselves crapping on me (and him)…………….not such a spectacular sight. Also if everyone wants to be so ‘clean’ and nicey nicey well we have had that I don’t think much inspires anyone either. We can swap x/o’s until we are all so tired and ‘support’ each other in that kind of lifeless way. Also Margaret you seem to take the lead in this ‘banning’ business I still feel you made such a big issue about me questioning the way you dealt with your cat. Well it was just my opinion and I don’t see how you could think your cat was in any sense ‘well’ but you don’t want to learn anything it seems, same now with the ‘holocaust’ business. I mean I let you go on and on about your Mom and your cats etc etc.I certainly would never ask to ‘ban’ you I guess I am just not sure where you get all that ‘moral high ground;.People also have the option to ‘ignore’ me well some of them do………….by the way ‘precious’ was never praise the way I see it precious to me means so fragile and vulnerable but mostly as a way not to engage in life……………

        • jackwaddington says:

          Quote: “when I put up that Kollerstrom video I would probably (be made to) ‘regret’ it. Do I regret it I suppose so in a way” It’s the assumption that you regret it BUT ‘only in a way” Another of those escape clauses, you seemingly need (in your head), to refrain from any doubt you are highly neurotic. No surprise there since You are all hell bent on NOT doing Primal Therapy … because, I assume, you think you are smart enough to devise your own.

          Another quote:- ” nobody has commented on the ‘reality’ of what he has said ” Gretchen has wrote quite a lot about him/it but I am certain she does not see it as “Reality” Only you designate it that way. Yet going back to what I feel was your preamble to this whole Kollerstrom thing, was about questioning preconceived notions. My take, to re-quote you “What if so much of what we have been told is not true………………..?” Is there any possibility in your head that K’s notions are not true OR is it in the realms of your definition of REALITY absolute and irrefutable ‘TRUTH’??????? My question, without my conclusion, was to ask why were Jews and others rounded up and put in concentration camps???? Just for delousing? Could that have not been done in their own homes? If indeed, that was the sole purpose. According to Mein Kampf he wasted to ship Jews and most others off to Madagascar … but that was in his original version. written whilst in prison.

          Yet another quote: “falling all over themselves crapping on me (and him)…………….” Isn’t ‘Crapping’ meant as defecation????? Poor, poor Patrick … you must have to spend so much time getting all that shit off your clthes and body .. and the smell of it all to boot.

          Just for the record; I for one am waiting for you to respond to Gretchen question:- Why you are on this blog at all. I know why you came on it in the first place. It was to do unto me what you now seemingly disdain others doing to you … your words “crapping all over ………”

          Ah well!!!! enough fun for me for now.


  69. Margaret says:

    > Jack, yes, funny indeed, but at the same time incredible Patrick writes stuff like that.
    > with all this fuming some of the wires up there must really be melting.
    > time for a cooldown before it becomes a meltdown.
    > M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: Yep! really very funny … Patrick well dunno; but suspect the pokes are getting to him. Sadly from that solo operating left lobe of his it’s beginning to get over bearing for him I gather. You never know he could explode into a full blown Primal, then he’ll get what it all should have meant to him in the first place.

      But I’m not betting on it. Worked for and with him too long, to put money on it.


      • Patrick says:

        Well your’e the one yesterday who found all this so ‘funny’ and the funny thing is it was based on a mis-understanding by Margaret. So what was so funny? Of course you do not know or care so long as it seems to be against me it is ‘funny’ to you. Talk about compulsive and stupid. All this crap about the left lobe etc……………..well let’s face it you haven’t a clue much of what you are talking about. Just some lame way to bolster your ‘religion’

        • Patrick says:

          So what WAS so ‘funny’ to you yesterday, you laughed so hard (you said) other people noticed you and it was about me saying ‘only a woman’. You would not have read that because I never said it but you still found what she said so ‘funny’. Do you remember or do you care………………like a lot of primallers ‘truth’ is not that important to you I have noticed (and this DOES start from the top – Janov to me made his career out of ‘lying’ and he is still at it)…………….so please tell us or me what you found SO funny.

  70. Margaret says:

    > this morning it is me feeling a bit like Sandy I guess..
    > for me it is scroll scroll delete as iI get the comments by mail, and I must admit I started feeling a rising frustration working through the comments and hoping at least one person would react on what first tickled me but what also really indignified me as I have a sense it was not a joke, when Patrick told me to stay out of the discussion as well, I was just a woman..
    > nobody seemed to notice or mind or maybe they just passed it by for being too outrageous to react on, but well, it is like the worst kind of racism in the style of woman is the nigger of the world, lying at the base of so much injustice and suppression.
    > with Patrick it is merely a mindset I guess, accidentallly or purposedly seeping out, but anyway, it fits in to a deep old feeling of mine, actually the first one that ever broke through to the surface.
    > as a child I was constantly ‘corrected’ by my dad, who disapproved of me doing ‘boy’ stuff like clinbing trees etc.
    > it was specially the despising tone of his voice talking about me, mostly not to me that hurt me.
    > and now again crazy P criticizes me and ‘corrects’ me for being ‘just a woman’, in those terms, so I should stay out of it!
    > you conceited full of yourself thick as a brick … , to be filled in as I don’t want to lower myself too to using childish names and insults. so I deleted the word ‘crazy’ from the list, as I don’t think you are, but mean the rest.
    > I hope more women speak up here, I need some female sanity and feeling talk here, feels a bit cold and lonely somehow, otherwise.
    > and again the dust seems to settle and he got away with spreading insults and toxic waste, ready for another load soon?
    > I ccan only repeat, I want him gone for a while and let the normal conversation restore itself, as this blog is indeed losing its therapeutic quality to some degree otherwise, with this ogre around.
    > like Phil, i agree it is not inviting to talk about sensitive stuff, not only because of the vile comments that might come, but also ba
    > ecause there is simply no room for much attention and empathy as unless it is really serious stuff like disease or someone passing away, comments get snowed under or worse by the verbal diarrhea of some..
    > just a woman.

  71. Margaret says:

    > Phil, if I were you I would not bother to look it up, as it is just a passing sneer somewhere deep down into a long rant of Patrick.
    > he mainly talks about other stuff and than casually sneers at me, saying I should stay out of this as well, I am a woman..
    > I thought it might remain unnoticed by many as I guess most of us by now,, if we look at them at all, read Patricks or Badtricks comments in a diagonal way.
    > it is outrageous in its craziness indeed, that is why I did want to pull some attention on it, as it is so basically demeaning and kind of says it all..
    > M

  72. Patrick says:

    Margaret – I was mystified yesterday what you were going on about and how seemingly I said you ‘were just a woman’. I never said any such thing and I know I would not that is not the way I think. I would say it would be impossible for me say something like that.

    I think I know though what you are referring to. Here in the entry by me

    Margaret – it seems you join the Amen Corner or the Choir in knocking Kollerstrom. What in the hell is wrong with applying maths from say galaxies to something else like crop circles. Maybe the people who made the crop circles had something like that in mind. Have you thought of that?. I have no idea but it is almost comical to see people falling all over each other to ‘destroy’ this guy. Now you come in the next thing you might start applying statistics to it. For fuck’s sake leave the guy alone he is interesting for sure to me, he is eccentric I would agree but thank God for ‘eccentric’ and I would take it any day over the kind of ‘reality’ Phil promotes and seem to believe in. It’s like anyone a bit ‘different’ with a bit of flair you can’t wait to shoot him down but of course not to forget the real agenda is he is a ‘holocaust doubter’ so all Hell in un-leashed on him. And Margaret you are just a Yes woman in this situation. I don’t like it.

    I actually called you a “Yes woman” out of ‘respect’ in you care to think about it. I was about to call you a “Yes man” as that is a common way to say things in English. Do you know that phrase/way of talking?. But I thought out of respect to Margaret lets call her a Yes woman and not a Yes man. Just like nowadays they don’t talk about ‘chairman’ they say often ‘chairperson’ or ‘chairwoman’
    So you quite misunderstood what was going on there Margaret…………….you will have to search and find a better reason to ban me. And really I don’t think talking about books and history with an open mind is enough. Gretchen can do what she wants of course..

    Also Margaret you might find me objectionable but I have noticed often when I am gone and I do sometimes even for a few weeks well let’s put it this way there is not a lot going on at least as I see it. And you should actually thank me for giving you some very good information that might allow you to have a cat with at least reasonable health unlike what you actually did with the one that died.

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – actually to be strictly correct about it the one you put to death.

      • Anonymous says:

        You can’t feel good making a comment like that

        • Patrick says:

          Well it is true afterwards I thought that WAS mean. But as explanation Margaret tried to ban me before and was real serious about it and the way I remember it it was mostly all because I questioned the way she dealt with her cat. And actually I can ‘thank’ her too in that it was this combination of very bad cat health (creams, suits and lot of ‘shots’) made me wonder……………….around the same time I happened to hear Janine Roberts explaining how bad and dangerous vaccines were and that began me reading and thinking about all this more.

          Of course I COULD be ‘wrong’ but I doubt it very much. Gretchen says she never met someone who was so sure of himself and so ‘wrong’ at the same time. I am not ‘sure’ of myself of course I could be wrong but yes I doubt it very much. But I taky your point whomever you are but that was the context. She tried to me ‘banned’ before she was the first one to come up with it and here she goes again and again IMHO she got the wrong end of the stick.

          • jackwaddington says:

            Quote:- “Of course I COULD be ‘wrong’ but I doubt it very much” Why is it so fucking difficult for you to just say “I could be wrong” and leave it that, rather than add “but I doubt it very much” It is the second part of this, the phrase, you doubting, that seemingly, NEGATES THE FIRST PHRASE WITH THE SECOND. I suspect that is why Gretchen says:- “I have never met someone who was so sure of himself and so ‘wrong’ at the same time.”

            My take is that your “doubting” the first phrase makes it irrelevant. You’re so fucking sure you ARE RIGHT. Where does that fucking assurity come from????? I suspect no other than your ego. If I am correct, then you are such a fucking EGOTIST, it is littLe wonder everyone, seemingly, finds you so detestable. Give that a little thought, in-spite of it coming from me.

            I suspect if you chose to respond that you’ll take me up on ” If I am correct,”


            • Patrick says:

              What WAS so ‘funny’?????????????????

              • jackwaddington says:

                quote:- “What WAS so ‘funny’?????????????????” Since you ask; Margaret’s comment:- “now this is really getting hilarious, I should stay out of the big guys stuff as I am well, ‘just a woman’? hahahaha!”

                Specifically the phrase:- “I should stay out of the big guys stuff”

                Since I am guy (I have always assumed) and maybe I’m considered one of the “big guys” I felt it was a female doing a put down (humorously) about males. Nothing, from my perspective concerning matters about you.

                Hope that satisfies your curiosity.


  73. Margaret says:

    > ok that saves looking it up. it is easily explained that listening to my screenreader it sounded like a, yes, ..woman..
    > but hey, out of respect huh, calling me a yes woman?
    > and that is not the reason anyway I’d like you to be out of here for a while, nor are the books you promote.
    > it is the spirit that drives you to refer again to me killing my cat just as a means to hurt me as much as you can.
    > you might look up a recent severe outbreak of polio among if I am right a group of Pakistani families who refused to give te polio vaccine to their children..
    > not the subject in this matter here but sad enough is they started refusing it as for a while the CIA used prevention work with vaccination as a cover to look for Ben Laden there.
    > and well, I think you are the very only one feeling the blog did hardly survive your precious absence, most of us if not all see it completely differently.
    > it might even be good for you as your mind seems in overdrive as to lose the pedals somehow lately, a bit too often to my personal taste, which is all i can express here.
    > I am fed up with all that craziness, and long for the comments of all those staying away right now, and for some meaningful and more personal subjects to be addressed here again, as there is little space for that now between all the spit and toxic waste.
    > I wonder if all that rage was triggered by the rejection of that one person who represented all your hopes and fantasies for you?
    > in that case, and even if that is not the case, a break might still be useful is my honest opinion.
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. I wish for more comments from feeling people too, like Leslie, Vicky, Tom etc. Even Phil, though he still contributes, has said he feels inhibited. I too feel like my mom is in the room about to criticize everything I’m about to say and deny my feelings. This is a group to explore our old hurts and we want to feel safe and heard to do so.
      When Patrick has gone from the blog for a while I think–good he has decided to enter therapy and continue with feeling. But no, just wishful thinking.
      I know that in group such behavior would not be tolerated and seen as undermining to the purpose of therapy. Those paying for therapy would not put up with it for a second.

      • Patrick says:

        Sylvia – how do you ‘know’ any such thing. You have said you have never been to the PI. And this is not group and people are not paying for it. Jeez Louise…………so much cant around here. And please no need to anyone say they are ‘afraid’ as they often would in group it’s only words on a screen. Anyone can say anything they want or like………………..Sylvia I expected more of you because you never actually was in the ‘sect’………….

        • Sylvia says:

          Patrick, when I first started reading about this group on the blog I thought you were a good contributor finding your way. I thought each were helping each other and I thought Margaret pointed out things that could help you with feelings. But at some point you took offense and she backed off realizing that you found it too hurtful. However it seemed that you were attacking and shaming her for things, attacked Larry for being “pastorlike”, Phil and others for their personalities.
          I’ve not been in any group, but I’ve seen tapes and read much of the primal literature.
          Art has said that he would never tolerate someone undermining the group by being insulting. That is why patients are in therapy–because they have already suffered abuse.
          I too believe that the PSG rules are important, that we should all have respect for each other. I think the purpose of this group is to help each other and not to cast blame or shame. It is old feelings we are after–not to constantly defend ourselves in the present for our views about every subject that interests us. It is ultimately about getting rid of our anxieties, fears or whatever is tripping us up from a good life.

          • Phil says:

            Sylvia, I think you are right that Patrick couldn’t go on and on in group like this. People would speak up in a way that would be more effective than is possible on an internet forum. I think he does fit the definition of a troll at the moment, unfortunately, with all the acting out. If he isn’t a troll, he could stop, but I don’t see that happening. Phil

            • The internet and this blog have their obvious disadvantages, but when I think of the dark ages of the 1990’s when Janov was the only person allowed to speak on an elevated podium at all concerning our favorite psychological matters I am happy to take the tradeoffs!

              • jackwaddington says:

                First quote:- “The internet and this blog have their obvious disadvantages” What are the disadvantages??? Not trying to get at you; you may well have some interesting ideas other than the obvious ones of not being ‘one on one or,eye to eye’

                Second quote:- “when I think of the dark ages of the 1990’s when Janov was the only person allowed to speak on an elevated podium ” My take, for what it’s worth … 1990’s were not dark ages … then the second part of this quote … what’s with this about ONLY Janov being the only one “allowed to speak on an elevated podium” In several of his books, there were whole paragraph written by other therapist Barry B has also written articles in other publication also.

                From some of your prior comments I get the feeling you are highly critical of the guy and your biggest, from my recollection, is that you do not approve of his atheism. I can only assume that you are ‘a card carrying’ follower of J C , who by my reckoning is:- a fictitious character, created by the religious folk of the time to create the perfect human … (Messia). As I was instructed in my classes of ‘religious instruction at my High School: Gospel according to Mark was written some 40 years after J C’s crucifixion and was the first of the gospels, the others took whole chunks of his stuff and they followed some 20 years after Mark. Prior to that it was all passed down by word of mouth, . The teacher had a masters in divinity.


                • I cannot think of any way in which it would be worth the monumental effort to straighten anything out with Jack.

                  Maybe $150-$200 per hour would do it for me on a slow day. Since that’s not going to happen, I am off to make dinner now. Goodbye!

                  • *While dinner cooks*…After a bit more reflection $500 per hour feels more reasonable and it would be an exceptionally long process with many billable hours involved.

                  • jackwaddington says:

                    Bye … hopefully for a week or two least. Bye.


                  • jackwaddington says:

                    Quote:- “I cannot think of any way in which it would be worth the monumental effort to straighten anything out with Jack.” I’m sort of sure that you’d not be able to “think” it out.

                    What’s there to “sort out”???? If you were able to ‘feel’ it rather than ‘think’ it, there might, just might, be a way to figure it all out … presumably only for yourself.

                    I doubt you’d be into paying yourself.


          • Anonymous says:

            Thanks Syvia – you make a lot os sense

          • Larry says:

            You seem impressively sane, clear headed, and even brave, Sylvia. You seem able to clearly express what you need to…usually something insightful, and able to sidestep getting caught in other people’s struggles. Hard for me to believe you’ve never been to Primal Therapy, and encouraging to me to know there are non-primal people out there like you. I’m sorry that you’ve never been able to get to therapy to help you deal with your issues tripping you up. I hope you are nevertheless managing to have a good life.

            • Sylvia says:

              Thank you Larry and Patrick for your comments. Larry, I am a work in progress and am ‘tripping’ a little less. Life is better and it is nice to be able to see the sensitivity in others. If it weren’t for a couple of friends who are just simply nice people I don’t think I could have made it this far. They were almost role models in that they truly care about people and aren’t driven by pain.

  74. Yeah…My worst fears confirmed. Lots of reverse brain engineering involved. $800-$1,000/hour. It will be a long journey with many, many potential billable hours at hand. $100,000 minimum opening retainer with half being a starting bonus. Then it might be worth the effort to talk to Jack as long as there is a termination clause that I can exercise at any time at my discretion after five billable hours conferred with a $100,000 severance fee payable to me.

    That should be a reasonably fair start given the circumstances, at least.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Why are you for ever talking about money???? You either don’t have any or, you feel you don’ have enough. As I read you I feel you are just a one dollar bill.

      What’s the feeling behind all this stuff … you are after all on Primal feeling blog Yeah????


  75. Patrick says:

    Guru – that reminds me of the joke Q:”How many psychiatrists does it take to change a light bulb”

    A; “Only one but it takes a very long time and the light bulb has really got to want to change”

    The thing about Jack is he does not WANT to straighten anything out. He LIKES to be in a perpetual state of ‘argument’ (war) For all his ‘bragging’ about how much PT has done for him you will never find him addressing really obvious problems like that.The way I see it PT for Jack is PURE ‘religion’ He might as well say “praise the Lord (Janov)” constantly.

    But I have to give him this…………..he seems ‘happy’ and full of devotion like some mystical figure from the Middle Ages. Whose to say it is not good for him. Probably better that whatever his ‘act-outs’ were…………….though his life is one long ‘act out’ the way I see it He is not interested in ‘change’ of any kind it seems he came to therapy this way he was ALREADY talking about his ‘book’ I have never seen any kind of change at all in the guy. But to me at least he is a super pest he ‘follows me around’ even though he does not mean me well…………..all his ‘advice’ is just like barbed wire it does not even try to be helpful. Whatever why am I even spending time on the dude “you can’t argue with a sick mind”…………… long it takes me to really KNOW that.

  76. Patrick says:

    Or “never argue with an idiot he will bring you down to his level and then beat you with his experience” I feel pretty beaten I give up he wins but even that he will not leave alone. Wants another ‘argument’

    Or another one “Arguing with an idiot can be time consuming and mentally draining. Arguing with an idiot is a lot like a saying my dad used to tell me, “Never wrestle with a pig, you’ll both get dirty and the pig will enjoy it.” In other words, don’t argue with an idiot, you both look stupid and the idiot enjoys it!”

    And I am sure I have looked ‘stupid’ and Jack says very clearly over and over again that he ‘enjoys’ it. He has said that many times

  77. Patrick says:

    Guru – apropos of nothing but maybe also to change the subject to some less controversial. You put on a beautiful piece of music by Jimi Hendrix called “Waterfall” and I just came across this and it reminded me of it. This is about the making of the record but to me that piece of music is so amazing it just seemed worth it to hear it again.Such a soaring aching piece of music…………..

  78. Patrick, I do think several people commented on the specifics or ” reality” of what you or Kollerstrom were claiming , I just don’t think you heard it. If you go back to the beginning I think you will find there were more comments than you might remember. I do want to point out that your contempt for supportive or nicey nice behavior seems only to be a problem when it is you not being supported. Along the same lines you are quick to say ” it’s only my opinion” while having a problem with myself and others expressing their opinions. You also made mention of the fact that on Dr Kruse’s blog there was no problem with you bringing up Primal. In other words you are not supported here but you are there presumably because they are more open to controversial thinking. But I think people were interested when you brought up Paleo. I think this is a very different situation which is likely why you are not exposing these views on Dr Kruses blog. I honestly think you would get a very similar reaction were you to bring these views up on Dr Kruses site or any other site for that matter. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen I think you are right about that…………but that’s the POINT!!. If something is so un-speakable pretty much everywhere doesn’t that possibly tell you something”? I heard something recently and this was more in the ‘political’ realm look to find what you are not ‘allowed’ to talk about and that might give you a clue to what is important. And I will admit that is why I do like this blog very much and I have mentioned this before Dr Kruse’s blog has more ‘topics’ in it what I iike about this blog is you don’t need a ‘topic’ just whatever you are feeling or going through at any particular time.

      • Patrick says:

        Having said that it WAS someone on Dr Kruse site who told me about Kollerstrom and also the “Myth of German Villany” Now please no need to tag Dr Kruse as an ‘anti-semite’ or something I have never heard him saying anything about it or make any reference to it it was just someone on his site I got to ‘talking’ to on the side. I don’t want you sending any kind of Eli Wiesel goons or put the Simon Wiesenthal Center on to him. I know the kind of power they have if they choose to use it. But and this is maybe a stretch in general though the Dr Kruse people are very ‘open minded’ on the Cruise I was struck and impressed by that over and over. And it can be open minded about ‘science’ itself for example………………….to me as their brains and bodies get healthier they are less likely to just swallow any crap they are told or is put in front of them.And I’m afraid that covers most all of the “holocaust industry’ Eli Wiesel makes a good ‘industry’ out of it he apparently makes $25,000 a speech and shows up in a limousine. Nice work if you can get it.

        • Phil says:

          Patrick,What gets me about all of this is that you seem to think you’ve come upwith startling new information to share with us. You are informing us.This Holocaust denial stuff has been around for many years and itis nothing new. I have come across it before many times, looked at it, and rejected it.There is no reason for me to look at it again.So the Nazi’s “final solution”, was a solution to the lice problem? It is a shamefor anyone to fall for that. I suggest you open your mind to the possibilityyou are wrong, which is OK, we all make mistakes, and do some more readingon this topic.Phil

          Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 07:22:49 +0000 To:

  79. Patrick says:


  80. Patrick, No it doesn’t necessarily tell me something. It might depend on your mindset. It could tell me some things are incredibly hurtful or offensive and nothing more. For the record I was not thinking Dr Kruse was anti Semitic . My point was that I believe you would have gotten a similar reaction there to the one you received here no matter how open you think they may be. You are welcome to test that out but I hope you don’t. As for Wiesel, maybe he has something important to discuss. You should read him I think. G.

  81. Margaret says:

    > precious means possessing value, worth of financial or emotional quality, also beloved for that matter.
    > nothing to do with fragility imo.

  82. Patrick says:

    OK I have decided to ‘ban’ myself for a month. So nothing from me until the middle of October (if then). Thanks for all your forbearance and now people can have a bit of peace for a while. And then nobody needs to make any tough decisions so it’s all good.

    • Larry says:

      A month is not very long. Knowing you will be back keeps me frozen, unless we could close the door behind you and lock it.

  83. Margaret says:

    > ha, sounds like a good decision, that is if you make it until hthe middle of november otherwise it would only be a day or so instead of a month..
    > M

  84. Margaret says:

    > it is strange, but somehow now Patrick decided to ban himself for a month, I feel like ok let the guy go, it is a good decision, although I am not sure about his motives which might be well, what do I know??
    > but I seem a hopeless optimistic as to still carry a faint hope he will start to see the light some day, hopefully, although there too I know it is wishful thinking probably..
    > stil I feel like don’t kick him while he is going, for some reason..
    > part of my hope has probably an old drive of not wanting to give up on my dad, like maybe some day he will see how likeable I am, and be nice to me, maybe all misunderstandings and fears will be resolved, maybe there will be proper communication.
    > I felt he mostly kept me at a distance, but the main thing I saw in his eyes, my dad’s, was fear and pain. he looked so scared of …, not of me, not of what I might do, but scared, some pain right there, and knowing what I know now, it had to do a lot with him being kept away from his first daughter from an earlier telationship, a halfsister of mine, 8 years older, whose mother was a crazy bitch..
    > she told me several times how cuddly and loving he was with her, how she could always sit on his lap whenever she felt like it, something I could never do. so probably he shut down after losing her during many years, until she was 18 and he saw her again.
    > it is very sad he had that reaction, instead of giving me that same kind of love, maybe his pain was too big and his fear to lose again, who knows, he has spoken with my mom about being incapable of hugging my brother and me for that reason.
    > for my brother it was even worse, as he was not his son, and got less than I did even, or more negative stuff..
    > so I guess I resonate with pain, and fear, and long to help, make things right, and people, including myself, happy…
    > M

    • Phil says:

      I’m glad Patrick is giving us a break and I would be fine if he decidedto leave for good, but don’t think he should be banned without havingviolated rules here. It’s easy for me to comment on a controversy butharder for me to talk about myself. I’m afraid that when I do interject myself, like at times in the past days, it is about me anyway. As I mentioned in an earlier post, it’s maybe look at me, I have something important to say etc. Even if what I say is totally relevant to the discussion.Phil Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2015 16:10:14 +0000 To:

      • Phil says:

        After I wrote this, I was really feeling the truth of this, that my recent comments have a lot to do with wanting attention. Not changing what I was saying but accounting for why I was doing it.
        I was feeling more on it a little while ago. I was starved for attention from my mother,
        there is hardly anything I got from her. I was remembering my sister getting some attention, and the feeling I had was “me too”, “what about me”. My sister was 9 years older than me; I felt forgotten, aching for attention. Something seemed possible at
        that moment, other times it was totally out of reach.

  85. Margaret says:

    > hey Phil, I relate.
    > for me too it started to really frustrate me and make me feel ‘what about me?’..
    > all that attention all going one way, from him, about him, to him, and why, for actually misbahaving most of the time.
    > as I said, I don’t mind to invest time and energy if it feels even slightly constructive, but there is a limit to how much you want to be offended and well, yes, what about me??
    > it seems a mixture of past and present feeling, and of course specially all that attention it got from Gretchen increases the old ‘jealousy’, the old pain of not counting, not mattering..
    > it got speciallly hard to bear as it all seemed to become utterly pointless at some point, and I appreciate Patrick took that step, even a month seeems ok, for me it is hard to imagine I’d feel like banning someone forever, though not entirely unthinkable under circumstances I do not feel like thinking about or talking about, where I might really draw a definite line, exceptionally.
    > specially as this is a therapeutic kind of environment, with actual people in my life I don’t like at all, it would be easier to decide I do not want to have to do anything with them if I could avoid it, matter of healthy common sense in that case.
    > but here everyone deserves second chances and third if there seems to be some honest effort made..
    > hope things will turn out better when the dust will have settled.
    > already I feel relaxing when writing now, not a kind of war zone anymore..
    > I do hope people start talking a bit about themselves again.
    > M

  86. Let’s assume 750 million people around the world have been inoculated on the Jews and other assorted ethnic groups killed under Hitler’s regime, and that 25 million people denied that it happened. Jesus, man….I would love to have those numbers of people inoculated on the sheer size of the traffic collision problem. I would shrug and say “So what?” about the 25 million hypothetical deniers in such a case. As it stands, you’d be lucky to find a couple hundred thousand people throughout the world that truly understand the killing power of high-velocity machines. It’s a near complete barren wasteland of indifference for the families left behind.

    Maybe this is why I am not as upset about Patrick’s antics as most here on the blog seem to be. If I was already assured that nearly a billion people at least already knew about fatal road collisions, and Patrick took it upon himself to actively deny on the blog that fatal road collisions ever take place…I would just shrug and say, “So what? There’s still a billion people out there that acknowledge the problem. Let this one guy do his thing.”

    • jackwaddington says:

      Of course you would Mmmmm!!!!!! Isn’t Patrick a phone buddy of yours and isn’t he someone you have some Arthur Janov denials; about his methods, practice and maybe even theories. You’re chummies and I see the pair of you.

      My feeling is you’d like to keep your chumminess intact. His leaving the blog for a while should not upset your status quo Mmmmm???

      I gather he’s not returning to Eire for a little time … which wouldn’t prevent him from getting on the blog anyway. I understand they joined the 21st century a wee while ago.


      • Nope, I almost never talk to the man. I’ve actually been talking to you a lot more than I do him!!

        Yet another idea you got totally wrong.

        • I probably talk to Gretchen about 30 times as much as I do Patrick. I have too many other things to worry about.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Ok … now I know I got that one wrong (amongst all my other wrongteous nesses).

          One point I feel about you is that you are for ever going on about traffic fatalities. That’s understandable in view of what happened to your mother when you were little. I would be interested and feel it would be in keeping with this blog if you were able to talk/write about how it affected you in childhood and to this present day.

          My knowledge (not that intensive) of other Gurus I’ve read, is that they teach one how NOT to be affected by the travails of daily life. A sort of transcendence of such matters. I personally find that a deprivation of living life to it’s fullest. Maybe that is perhaps another factor that you might enlighten me about. I’d appreciate it.


  87. tom verzar says:

    Hi All
    I do not understand why any of you engage, even for a split second, Joop and his mate, Patrick on this blog.
    They do not belong here. They bring nothing to this blog, other than totally misguided ideology.
    Everyone of you, tried and tried to engage them in a meaningful, humane, sympathetic way.
    And all you ever got is a kick in the teeth. WAKE UP!
    Their dialogue is not entertaining. It is spiteful, demeaning, full of poison.
    I’ve never met in my life two people who can lower the standard of a very meaningful blog into the gutter.
    Stop acquiescing to them. You do not owe them anything. Especially listening to their sorrowful dialogue.
    Put a stop to it.

    • Larry says:

      Tom, I couldn’t agree with you more. After exhibiting corrosive behaviour here over and over, it frustrates me that people continue to engage with Patrick, in effect inviting him to stay longer. Personally, knowing that he’s going to be back and people will slide right back into the same fights and arguments with him all over again, makes it hard for me to relax and open up here. I’m bracing myself for his return. On the other hand, Patrick’s and Joops contributions to this blog have given me insight into how strange some people’s ideations can be. It seems there is always something to be learned from the exhanges that happen on this blog.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Tom: Maybe you include me in your statement of engaging them. I feel my ‘poking’, better identified as the “Jack and pony show” does and has had some effect.

      Since Gretchen wants to keep it open and free and no banning I accept that as the rules for this blog. However, I do concede that my poking is perhaps getting tiresome for others. I would be open and hope if some feel that way; they would tell me so. That way I get a better sense of what my comments achieve or don’t achieve as the case may be.


    • Phil says:

      Hi Tom, I guess Joop and Patrick are people too. Patrick seemsto think what he does here is therapeutic, but I’m doubtful.I find, at times, for my own sake I do have to speak up even if it seems to encourage him to continue.You are right, but I don’t see how we put a stop to it. How are you doing? Phil

      Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 00:42:42 +0000 To:

  88. Sandy says:

    Phil, your writing about the attention you needed helped me to give some more thought to the attention that was happening on the post. Seeing so many people give all this attention to negativity was triggering something, but I was unclear until reading your post jogged something loose. I remembered as a teenager being envious of those who could act out and not catch supreme shit for it. Yes, those act’er out’ers were the ones who got the attention. But more than that, they were the ones the teachers and officials noticed needing help, and got help for them. Help from school councillors, social workers, or from the teachers themselves. It seemed to me that others would get this magical help for being “troublemakers” and I was the one trying to be as invisible as possible because getting attention meant getting murderlized at home for far lesser crimes. man!, that memory hurts.

    • Larry says:

      That makes a lot of sense.

      In my early 20’s after I first read the Primal Scream, I became aware of and opened up to my feelings and for a while I self-primalled. Among the first feelings that erupted was being back in high school and crying why didn’t anyone help me. The teachers must have seen what a shy, quiet non-participant I was in school life, but none made an attempt to help or encourage me. Maybe they sensed I was too far gone. If they had tried to help I probably would have recoiled in pain, needing far more help than they could give and needing to remain a non-entity to keep all my pain down.

      The thing that bothers me about all the energy put into arguing with Patrick on the blog is that it takes up a lot of peoples’ time and attention and never gets anywhere, and displaces the contributions that many other people might make about their lives and situations.

      • One good solution to this would be a standard message board format. You would have threads that people can open and close. A person starts a thread, people can respond to it, or they can not look at the thread altogether. The WordPress blog format does not lend itself well to suiting everyone’s needs. Some people want to banish Patrick, while others want a good fight….so,….you would have for instance, a format like this:

        Thread Titles
        a) Patrick’s Celtic Fighter Holocaust thread
        b) Larry’s Problem
        c) Tom’s Problem
        d) Margaret’s Mom
        e) Gretchen’s Musings

        When you first access the page, you would only see the TITLES that people have created when they want to start a new subject, you would not see any responses to those titles unless you manually click open the thread title someone created so you can explore. If you are not interested in a thread, you just pass it over instead of these repeated calls for banning, etc.

        VBulletin (VBulletin Link) distributes this sort of forum software, but the downside is there may be some hosting fees involved unlike WordPress. I’m not an expert on running websites, but the cost could be anywhere from $200-$1,000 per year depending on how much traffic you need to manage (I may be wrong on which exact factor causes this cost variation).

        Word Press is free, yet a lot of tension has arisen because of the format forcing a lot of people to look at an issue (Patrick’s topics) they’d rather not deal with. A forum message board format would go a long way to solving something like this by partitioning all the discussions in an accordion-style file folder format.

        • tom verzar says:

          Hi USG
          You are missing the point. We don’t need a technical way to deal with the likes of Patrick and Joop. We just don’t need them to be participating on this blog. Period.
          That’s the only fix we need.

          • Well….I tend to disagree with you guys, but…..I simply don’t have the time or energy to fight this out myself.

            You guys’ complaints about Patrick shoving this topic in your faces reminds me a lot of my complaints about the news media shoving 9/11 in everyone’s faces year after year after year after year while the military contractors gleefully egged on the media hysteria suckling trillions of American taxpayer dollars, ignoring the other killings quietly going on in this country.

            Had to say that, end of rant.

    • Phil says:

      Sandy,As a kid I also tended to try to be as invisible as possible whichI now see as a different kind of acting out on my part.An especially ineffective type. I mostly gave upat an early age actively calling out for help. Terrible to want and need something and yet be unable to even tryto get it. It is much better for me to speak up even if it is acting out.At least it is expressing something. Phil

      Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2015 02:09:34 +0000 To:

  89. Guru, Just out of curiosity … Why would you disagree with everyone? Patrick’s shoving his views in everyone’s face reminds you of having something shoved into your face then wouldn’t you tend to agree with the group? Are you saying you are now fine with having something shoved into your face? It’s a little confusing! Gretch

    • Do you think I should be assimilated into the Borg by agreeing with everyone, then?

      I said their complaints of Patrick shoving it in their faces reminds me of what the news media did in a different instance. Everyone was perfectly free to respond to Patrick immediately whenever they felt like it right here, right now, on the blog. In the instance of 9/11 and the news media, any citizens that may have wanted to complain that the story is being grotesquely overblown for the financial benefit of a small group of people didn’t have that power to provide immediate feedback to the television set or the newspaper.

      Now if people feel too intimidated to respond to Patrick when they have the immediate means to do so, isn’t that their feeling they need to contend with? Isn’t that the point of Primalling?

      In summary: The blog readers have the power to give immediate, scathing feedback to Patrick if they want…and those critical words take up just as much blog real estate in front of the reader as Patrick’s words. Where the news media and television is concerned yammering on and on about 9/11? HAH! Good luck with that one. Citizen feedback doesn’t mean squat in that case. It’s all politics, big money, and the military running the show and it becomes a one-way stream of communication where we can do nothing but helplessly listen to what’s being shoved in front of us. You can fight back immediately where Patrick is concerned if that’s what you want. That’s the critical difference between the two mediums.

      • In case you haven’t noticed, the combined weight of your objections already compelled Patrick and Joop to put a self-imposed moratorium on their postings. I could never dream of forcing my television set or newspaper to finally shut the fuck up about the Terror War unless I wanted to avoid the news altogether. I have no power in that case except for the long passage of time when the news media hypesters finally burn themselves out many years later at their own leisure.

  90. To quote one of my favorite movies ” Silver Linings Playbook” ……” Calm down crazy!” . No, I don’t want you assimilated into the Borg ( although at times you might be a bit borgtastic) I simply wondered about what seemed like a contradiction. I do wonder about this idea that saying how you feel about something should, can, or will result in a person or situation actually changing. Sometimes we say what we think because we need to not because it will change someone or something but because it changes us. I think this idea that in the blog situation we have power but in your situation you have none is rooted elsewhere. Patrick said things that impacted others on the blog but it was Patrick that decided to go away for a month. I think it’s unlikely anything that was said changed how Patrick felt on this subject and that’s the important thing in the end. It would be similar were you to respond to a newspaper article knowing that you are unlikely to change the views of most people on 911 or make your views on the car industry clearer to the majority of people. Still sometimes you have to speak out . You do it for you and you let go of the outcome. Gretchen

  91. As a p.s. And this is my opinion…. It was not the weight of objections that compelled Patrick to do anything in my view. Patrick knew the response he would get long before he posted that first link. That’s why it was posted here and not elsewhere … Because of those objections! In my view it is naive to think otherwise. G.

    • Sandy says:

      So if i understand you correctly, he didn’t care so much about what he was saying… he was just trying to get a rise out of everyone? Manipulating any takers so he can get his intended reaction? I’m asking for a reality check from you because I need to gain more understanding of my feelings. If you think that is the case, that would explain why I wanted to run away kicking and screaming, I tend to do that when I sense (consciously or unconsciously) I’m being manipulated. Sandy

    • Gretchen: In your two posts to me last night I noticed two very slick things you said. I don’t hold it against you, though, and I’ve accepted it with a wry amusement anymore. To me they are harmless psychological beguilements that help to train my mind.

      Patrick was right in certain ways, you are:

      —Extremely caring, ready to treat your clients like a fuzzy peach just waiting to be squeezed with a big hug
      —Sweetly attentive to anyone you wish to be in an exquisite manner
      —Loyal to the point where even the fiercest soldiers would have to pause with admiration

      —Very slick. I once called it “slippery” a long time ago, but you didn’t like it. Patrick and I are not alone in this assessment because I remember Kim once saying many years ago on the blog that you were “crafty”.

      I believe you would have made one of the very best and highest-earning funeral directors in the entire world, being able to sell 24-karat golden caskets with enormous markups to even your poorest grieving clients if you had wanted to do so. Luckily for the rest of us you elected not to take this path…

      I will describe these two slick areas in more detail shortly, yet I don’t really hold them against you. It comes with the territory where I am concerned; you are a psychologist, after all.

      • OK, the two areas of craftiness (both were indomitable, inescapable traps):

        Let’s look at the second post first:
        As a p.s. And this is my opinion…. It was not the weight of objections that compelled Patrick to do anything in my view. Patrick knew the response he would get long before he posted that first link. That’s why it was posted here and not elsewhere … Because of those objections! In my view it is naive to think otherwise. G

        You created an unescapable trap for Patrick here.
        Your post sounds well and good and you even explicitly said it is your opinion, yet you addressed it to myself and the blog after knowing Patrick banned himself from the blog for a month. You’ve said that people have a right to respond if you express your opinion on the blog, but Patrick is screwed in this case because he is trapped into not responding:
        a) If he comes back to the blog to respond to your opinion, everybody gets mad at him for violating his one-month moratorium
        b) If he stays silent to respect the month-long self-ban, everyone can only mull over your opinion alone without any counterpoint on Patrick’s part.

        I don’t think this is fair to Patrick at all, and I suggest he be allowed an exception to the ban to respond to your opinion here.

        One down, one to go on the psychological oil slicks. I will return with the second one in a bit.

  92. Phil says:

    > UG,
    > why didn’t you mention the title of a thread of your own?
    > but I think it would take a lot of vitality out of the blog to work that way, and what about being triggered? smiley,
    > one good way against having to do all the scrolling etc. is to have the site sent the comments by direct mail, you can delete them and make them vanish and go to the next right away if wanted.
    > but I feel it is good some boundaries have been marked even in an indirect way. how would you feel if some automobile freaks started invading the blog with long posts about all the advantages and delights of speeding on the highway for example?
    > and denying your numbers or ridiculing them?
    > for months ?
    > but actually come to think of it this is beside the point altogether, the main problem is not really mentioning controversial topics, for me the real problem lays in how and why, the list you once made with a few options to Patrick, or questions or whatever, was very much the nail on the head, as to unravelling some of the emotional patterns driving him, which he briefly acknowledged and then as usual quickly avoided adressing .
    > it is the mere goal of being hurtful that feels unacceptable if it gets pointed out repeatedly, and as clearly as posssible, and I must say how you did it was splendid in its clarity and accuratesse, and if then the persons still persist in their behaviour of being hurtful for the sake of it, refusing to even look at their motives or to consider adjusting them, or at least not showing any sign of it here, well, that becomes pretty hard to keep dealing with in the long run. I see no reason why one should allow a bully to keep shitting on your head.
    > and no, it is not enough to simply ignore him after a while, I have been attacked on several occasions without even being part of the conversation.
    > I remember the first violent attack to me about my former cat was completely out of the blue, even Patrick admitted it was merely because he was so angry at Jack, and I functioned as a kind of lightning rod to take some of the heat, well, that is not really acceptable if it goes on and on, in my opinion.
    > I give him credit for stepping out for a month, it must not be easy, specially if he keeps reading .
    > but well, we can have different opinions of course, no problem, I am glad for myself I did take a clear stand at some point, which is all one can do here.
    > M

  93. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > I suppose you noticed a comment was accidentally posted under Phil’s name at the top, which was mine, see the M at the bottom, smiley..
    > M

    • Margaret: Hi there, OK, I noticed the Caitlyn Jenner transformation in you pretending to be Phil, yes, but thanks for correcting it now. I have to be brief here because I am juggling several things today. I would ask if you can refer back to my October 14th post at 7:53 pm (if you can possibly do it with your software setup),. It would answer some of the car fanatic hypothetical questions you posed to me.

      I have to write to Gretchen and then work on other things for the moment. Write another post to me and I will attempt to write out a lengthier response on the next go-a-round.

      Please note I am not arguing against your descriptions of Patrick’s sometimes abusive behavior towards you.

  94. jackwaddington says:

    Here’s me putting my two cents in again. Permit me to tell about my background which a lot of the comments reminded me of.

    On rainy Sunday afternoons when my father was home and we all six, four kids and mam and dad, would sit round the fire and my father would set off what we termed an argument. Later we called them discussions and later still when I was in school they were called debates. Well! those wet rainy Sunday afternoons (every other Sunday where I came from) were great moments for all of us, if my feelings from all the others was anything to go by. My dad would play chairperson if things got out of hand, but my memories of them were that it was such fun and we could, without using swear words, say pretty much anything we liked. What I feel it gave all of us was a feeling that nothing was beyond discussion. Even sex when we kids got old enough to understand a little about it, leastways know where each of us came from and why. We kinds were only 3 years + apart

    My father just before he died when I brought up those moments, told me that he wanted us kids to be free thinkers and to think for ourselves. It is my sense he achieved most of that. To this day we are able, the three of us remaining siblings, still have that capacity to talk very freely to one another, even huge disagreements. I am recounting this since the current fracas on the blog has never disturbed me. When I say I have fun poking Patrick in particular or others, I really mean that I find it fun hence I love blogging and I love in particular this blog.

    As I feel most know, I find crying when I am sad, very easy, even though my Jimbo doesn’t like me crying, and if he could, would try and comfort me out of it. I even don’t mind his attempt, but still continue to cry until I’ve done enough as signaled by MY body. The same applies to my anger though I do have to be careful with Jim as it can spiral out of control. So I have it away from his presence. It’s the fears and terrors that are the feelings I still balk at and for the most part are just for seconds at a time. Mostly they come up in my dreams and I’m fighting someone or even a group, for my life. I sort of know where it comes from yet I don’t like those terror feeling. They spell imminent death. For the moment I don’t want to die. The one other thing I have taken into great account is “defending” When I sense it coming on I put in as much effort as I can muster to cease and desist. I can accept all name calling, but I don’t like being physically hurt. My mothers would often say “sticks and stones may hurt my bones … but calling me won’t hurt me”

    Ok, I hope that lets everyone know where I’m coming from.


    • jackwaddington says:

      Correction: Last line, second paragraph should read “We kids were only 3 years + apart”


      • Phil says:

        Jack, That is interesting. But with Patrick or UG that doesn’t seem to be the kind of debate you describe. To me UG has an agreeable presence here so I don’t know why you poke him. I am supposing you have no long history with him here as you do with Patrick. I preferred the Democratic presidential debate to the Republicans, as there were no personal attacks. Phil

        • jackwaddington says:

          Phil: UG and I have something of a history, not too many years, and recently he stated that I had a thing about him and I replied that I did indeed have a thing about him and pointed it out. There were about five points, and I have a copy of it should you be interested.

          From memory:- I have nothing against pseudonyms per se, but I felt his was highly conceited and arrogant (almost as conceited and arrogant as me). I did object to his references to and about Arthur Janov and wondered at his doing Primal Therapy if those were his sentiments about him. I did feel that he rarely if ever talked about his feelings on the blog, and from past communications with him has objected to the word “neurosis”, and I concluded that he perhaps did not consider himself to have been or currently ‘neurotic’. Another was his stating that he had “tomes of wisdom” and I replied I had never seen any evidence of it.

          I don’t dislike the guy, but I do not particularly like the way he presents himself. We did in the past have phone communications whereby I knew his real name and where he lived. I have never divulged either though he did in one instance divulge his real name and when I used it, he objected to my using it stating that he divulged it accidentally. I have since referred to him a “Guru”

          Hope that lets you know where I stand with him.


          • Phil says:

            Jack, I have seen that UG has a picture of money as his icon. So I was assuming that money or the striving for it was the ultimate guru, not him. Phil

            • jackwaddington says:

              Phil: I don’t see it that way. I feel he’s about monetary compensation for all his ills. I had and read several time a book “Seven Laws of Money” which I found highly illuminating. To and for me, money resolves nothing … of the inner demons. They don’t give a flying fuck about this self imposed restriction on life.

              My Jimbo is convince if he could win the Power Ball or lottery Jack Pot, all his problems will be solved. I’ve insisted that he’d then have a whole series of other problems. His retort is to say:- “try me”.

              I have a story and maybe it’s worth repeating:- When I live as a hippy in Ibiza, Spain; I knew a millionaire who once said to me:- “Jack; if I spend two weeks of the year thinking or worrying about earning money, that’s about the extent of it” I replied “I have no doubt D, but the trouble is you think and worry for the other 50 weeks about how to spend it”. and that’s how the fight started. He slapped me several time across the face to which I replied:- “You won the fight and I won the argument” He than slapped me again. I then left his house.


          • Phil says:

            Jack, I know you’d like to abolish money and UG has it as his symbol. When I consider that, I see the problem. Phil

            • jackwaddington says:

              Phil: Who has the problem????


              • I do it for laughs. Personal laughs for myself and nobody else.

              • Phil says:

                Jack, it seems you both do; with each other. Phil

                Primal Institute wrote:


                jackwaddington commented on: Remembering Summer part 4.

                Comment URL: ( Post URL: (

                This was in response to Phil:

                • jackwaddington says:

                  Phil: I would not call it a problem for either of us, since Guru states, categorically, he does it for laughs. I would be tempted to call it ‘a point of contention’ or at worst a conflict of interests.

                  I am happy for Guru that he finds it a laughing matter. That should and does not preclude me from having fun by pokes. Facebook uses the word liberally and I use it in what I perceive as a similar manner. Putting sentences and phrases back to a person by way of quotes should not be particularly offensive … unless the person feels the person poking has an agenda. I use pokes in the hope, at best, I will get a response more clearly about the quote.

                  For me, a lot of this rest on my reading of Thuless’ “Straight and Crooked Thinking” I see a lot of crooked thinking taking place in many areas especially politics. We’ll use a phrase in one context then relate back to it in quite another context. I’m not free from the same ‘crooked thinking’, but I do like to be reminded when I am doing it.


  95. Guru , Except ….. This is the 3rd time I have brought this up! He had the opportunity to respond to this issue and did. His response was that it was slick. You may recall my response was to say ” interesting choice of word” I said that because I had only heard that word used one other time and that was from you. I admit I did not think it was a coincidence. And again I did not ban Patrick he did, so presumably he is free to say what he wants. G.

    • I used “slippery”, Patrick used “slick”, and another person used “crafty”. I want to emphasize that I generally view this as relatively harmless. It’s part and parcel to being a psychologist from what I can see. It can actually be a beneficial tool if the client can actively describe the tricky areas being seen.

      I could have used “tricky”, I suppose..

  96. Guru, Actually you did use the word slick multiple times and you used the word slippery as well. Plus you have used the term slick in the past. I don’t think it’s fair to quote the person who used crafty here as I don’t believe it was used in the same way at all. Maybe it’s best to stick with yourself and Patrick’s views. G.

    • Sylvia says:

      Have limited knowledge here, but only see you in the field of helping people. Perhaps a cheerleader even. The funeral director’s clients cannot be helped. I think it would have been boring for you. Their loss is our gain.

    • I really don’t remember ever using the word “slick” at all. I did use “slippery” a couple times, and all of the words (slick, slippery, crafty, and tricky) seem to have interchangeable meanings to me. Patrick and I have separate and distinct viewpoints on a lot of things, so to say that I should stick with mine and Patrick’s views seems unfair here. Why do you and Jack keep lumping me in a group with him when we have separate minds? It’s so strange; I hardly ever talk to him even though we get along reasonably well.

      Now, the second explanation: You brought up that scene from “Silver Linings Playbook” with that, “Calm down crazy!” line. The context of which is a lady running after a guy while jogging and the guy gets mad at her for following him around.
      So here you are, a psychologist telling me “Calm down, crazy!” What sort of horrid inferences could the uninitiated blog reader derive from this setting?

      a) If I say nothing, your quote might instill a kernel of undisputed truth in your statement leaving the reader believing, “Yes, the Guru doesn’t deny it. He is crazy and just doesn’t show it!”
      b) If I become defensive and touchy about the quote, people can point at that and say, “AHA! See? He’s being touchy about the crazy comment, so he must be crazy since it affects him so much.”

      I can’t escape this indomitable “crazy” trap either way. I have no other choice but to fight back in my own way and start discussing the (slick, slippery, tricky, crafty) angle.

      • I also believe you neglected to give enough importance to the blog/newspaper/television real estate issue…I think it’s extremely powerful and shows the stark contrast between blogs and television/newspapers.

        I could yak yak yak on it more, but as I told Sylvia a while ago I am slowly trying to divest myself away from blogging. I’ve already done it for many years and it has slowly lost its charm for me. Less enthusiasm, more exhaustion about it overall.

        Fresh, new blogging blood would be a good thing. What happened to David, from Nova Scotia? Blogging takes up intense mental energy when I have to conserve that for other things..

  97. Sylvia says:

    Hi Guru. For me blogging takes a lot of energy too, not just mental but emotional too. Some emotions really pack a wallop, not knowing how my opinion will be received is always trying. Though usually learn something. Don’t give up if it’s valuable to you.

    • Sylvia: No, I won’t give up, yet I can definitely tell over the years how my enthusiasm from days of yore has slowly given way to more exhaustion about it today. I’ve been at this since 2008 and it’s now 2015 (almost 2016), soo….yeah. Somewhere along the way I must slowly retreat back to the milky cloud-laced mountaintops once more, at least bit by bit.

  98. Hey Guru, Honestly the calm down crazy comment was meant as affectionate teasing. I don’t think you are crazy and I don’t think you will calm down ( teasing again!) ! You know Guru, you keep saying well, I don’t think I used that word but maybe I used this one as though you would need to mull this over a bit. All you have to do is scroll up a few posts and there it is! I’m a tad confused by that! I believe slick was used four times. Gretch

    • Gretchen, OK thank you for saying I am not crazy. I get touchy about those things *glances furtively about the room*.

      I was referring to “slick” being used before this whole topic was brought into sharp focus these past 24 hours. I never used it before then; only “slippery” once or twice.

  99. Hey Sylvia, Yes I was not so sure about the funeral director comment myself as I know Guru actually isn’t too fond of them. I guess being compared to one would have to be considered a negative. It’s funny you made the cheerleader comment as I never see myself that way but….. When I first came to therapy there was a Christmas group. Vivian bought little gifts for everyone who attended that group ( she only did that once) that were suppose to have some significance. Anyway my gift was a little cheerleader doll! So you must be picking up on something. If Vivian Janov sees it and Sylvia sees it then I know it must be true! 🙂 Gretch

  100. Guru, Yes I know you have had a problem in the past with funeral directors. This is why my comparison to one has caused me to think that I too am a long term pain in the ass! G.

    • Gretchen: No, just one director has been the source of my angst. Just one. No, I didn’t think of you as a long term pain in the ass when I suggested you could have been a world-class funeral director. My brain doesn’t make those sorts of connections.

  101. Sandy, I do believe that Patrick has those prejudices but I also tend to think there is some unconscious manipulation at play as well. Who would not know that people will react to those comments? I do believe there is a kind of re- creation going on but maybe I am wrong. I mean you have the institute having been founded by two people who are not religious but are Jewish. You now have it being run by someone who is Jewish plus we have many Jewish patients some who lost family members in the Holocaust. Of course there will be drama. I have to wonder about that. So yes I do believe you picked up on something. Hope you are well and it’s nice to have you visit the blog despite all the recent controversy ! Gretch

    • Sandy says:

      Thanks Gretchen, this is really helpful that you confirmed this. You see, sometimes I have the same reaction when it seems inappropriate to the moment. So I now have better understanding of what’s going on with me at those times. I can feel more confident in the knowledge that it’s the underlying intent I’m reacting to, not necessarily the content of what the person is saying. For example there are times someone’s telling me something where I should be feeling all warm and fuzzy about them, but instead I feel a very particular brand of anger. Now I can feel sure that that’s what manipulation feels like. Sandy

  102. I find it interesting that Bernie Sanders (the socialist Democrat Prez candidate) is a Jew. He has been railing hard against the billionaire oligarchs of the country along with the USA’s wealth inequality problem. I don’t think I am being controversial when I say there is a popular conception out there of the Jews largely being the money hoarders of society, so Bernie is proving to be a huge break from that mold. I have known a few Jewish people intimately before I ever went to LA and they were all middle-class and below. (When I say “intimately” I am referring to working closely with them over many months’ time.)

  103. Otto Codingian says:

    Personally, I think it is the Irish who are the real hoarders. they keep so many potatoes under their mattresses that they can barely sleep. That is why they have to drink so much whiskey, so they can finally pass out for the night. And they are always fighting with the Arabs. But where would we be without them? HA!

  104. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > well, I admit my comparison with the hypothetical car fanatics was not really a good one, so let’s drop it, is that ok?
    > and indeed, it would be a big hassle to look up that comment with the screenreader, specially as my postbox seems to have a mind of its own sometimes, throwing me back years without a clear reason, and making other funny jumps back and forth with little logic. that is the postbox with the deleted stuff, not my box in luckily..
    > and well, just apart from the (non) discussion about it here, isn’t it so slick usually has a slightly negative connotation and crafty always a positive one? I would for that reason not refer to them as interchangeable, even not being a native English speaker. slippery seems to be somewhere in the middle of the scale, can be both sort of.
    > not a big deal either, just checking, as usually you are very accurate about details like that.
    > it would also explain why it is important to you to acknowledge you did not use the word slick before the discussion started.
    > good to hear you will hang around here some more, smiley..
    > M

  105. Margaret says:

    > sylvia,
    > I adress you as the most obvious fellow cat lover, for a chat about my furry guys..
    > they are at the vet right now, which is hard, mostly for me right now as they did not seem to mind too much to travel. I put them together in a bigger cage that I bought, as they are so close with each other I preferred to join them up instead of putting them in a separate cage.
    > they need to be castrated, which I do not like to have to do, but as a house cat there is not much other option, for several reasons.
    > one of them is they would start sprawling the entire place with their odours sooon, as they are adolescents now, and they’d probably also get very frustrated and want to go on the hunt for a female.
    > and also but that would not matter to me too much, it is obligatory here now with mostly all cats as there are too many strays already, so it is actually a positive thing to do for the cat population here in general, less hungry and cold stray cats or cats that need to be put down in shelters as there remains not enough room at some point.
    > it feels bad, but not too bad as they do not seem to suffer too much afterwards, in blissful ignorance of what actually disappeared..
    > still, I wish it would not be necessary, and only write about it now because Patrick is not here to try and make me feel worse.
    > they are brothers, and very very handsome, a kind of special colour design, not race cats, clearly a mix of many things as they have spots spread unevenly on a white background, with a dark mask and a dark tail, both of them.
    > only tiny differences in the shape of some spot make it possible to keep them apart, and now gradually the tiny one is growing into the much bigger one, graciously leaving the top cat spot to his brother that actually is much smaller now.
    > they cuddle up together a lot of the time, one big bundle of paws and tails and fur and whiskers, all purrs, so endearing.
    > this morning one specially warmed my heart, Plukkie, the now big one, came under the covers with me for a few moments, cuddled up, stretched and purred loudly, and then I felt these two huge very soft and very warm fluffy palms of his fromt paws on my cheeks. when he opens them up like that, for an affectionate touch, they are huge, all softness, cushions, fur in between, and very warm as cats have a high body temperature. one paw on each of my cheeks, in what can only be referred to as a gesture of afffection, tips of some claws noticeable but just barely, no scratching whatsoever.
    > he kept them like that for a while, purring, and it warmed my soul..
    > it is so nice to feel often in a very real and present way how much I love them, and how nice it is our bond keeps becoming closer all the time, more trusting, and even more affectionate than it already was at the start.
    > I recently read one of Terry Pratchetts great funny fantasy books, in which one character wonders about what makes this world worthwhile really, and after a moments silence, as they are in kind of a tight spot, one answers, ‘well, there are cats..’, which for me makes a lot of sense.
    > cats seem to know the art of living, they so clearly take pleasure in all they do, dozin, stretching, yawning, eating, playing like idiots and having tremendous fun, and getting almost ecstatic when it comes to cuddling and petting and rubbing their smell off on you and exchanging affection.
    > I am very glad I took two little brothers, it is so very nice to watch them together, they are definitely very happy, and make me feel that way as well.
    > i have a meal of freshly cooked biologically raised chicken ready for them when they come back home this afternoon and will make sure they feel ok again quickly. a bowl of yummie food usually does a good trick there , and then they love to stretch out in fromt of the gas fire to keep their belly warm while digesting.
    > kind of like a pair of hunting dogs in front of an English fireplace in some manor, smiley..
    > I did not buy them, they were kittens of a stray cat, which were urgently needing a welcoming home, and i feel so privileged with them in my life.
    > yeah, sorry for teh non cat people, haha, just delete, M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: A lovely story of you and your little furry friends. I’ve been both a cat person and a dog person and they both are very different.

      After the last cat that Jim and I had died we decided that it was too painful to go through our pets dying … but the memories remain. Yes, I took our last cat to be neutered and didn’t like it, but if you are having pets in a city it’s a necessity. When I had cats in Ibiza in the very deep country the thought to neutering never occurred to me.

      Meantime enjoy your furry friends Margaret whilst you can, and any others os you that have pets.


    • Sandy says:

      Margaret, I think its important to talk about those that you care about. Don’t we go through all this pain so that we can have loving moments like this? Sandy.

    • Vicki says:

      Margaret, I very much liked your cat story, as I have my own life with my wonderful dog now, and I say with no bias whatsoever, that she is the best dog in the world.

  106. Margaret says:

    > the kitties are back home already, and they are really fine!
    > a girlfriend came by to accompany us home and as soon as we arrived they started settling in again, drank a bit of water, ate something, in small portions today, and were even playful and socialble with my friend which is a very good sign they are feeling really ok already.
    > they received a painkiler that works for several days so should be fine as it is only a small operation.
    > I am so happy they did not get traumatized or fearful, they are still their loving playful confident selves, and run along for every little meal I go and prepare for them with enthusiasm!
    > soon they will be able to eat as much as they want again, they seem pretty fit already, hurray!
    > a very relieved cat mommy..
    > M

  107. Margaret says:

    > thanks guys, smiley and some purring from the couch ..
    > M and Pluche and Plukkie

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. Nice that you can talk freely about your kittens without a pounce lurking, because they must be a joy and we enjoy hearing about them. I am still trying to tame a mother cat feeding her and making it inviting to stay around.
      Glad your guys came through well from the procedure. Intact males are a problem and have a harsh life fighting. I think they will thank you later. Enjoy your little cuties!

  108. Margaret says:

    > hi Sylvia,
    > sounds like it might be hard to get that cat to come around enough to let you touch it for example.
    > but maybe if you provide a good refuge she will use it for her next litter and those kittens will be more trusting.
    > I have taken care of a male cat like that when I lived in Spain, but he ended up allowing us closer occasionally, sometimes even cautiously entering the house. food worked of course to increase his trust, but probably he had been someones cat somewhere in his past.
    > when his moment of dying had come, he did choose to do so in a cardboard box on our terrace right next to the kitchen door, where we found him one morning.
    > I feel something resonate in me with the loneliness and fear and longing to trust, the feeling of being ‘lost and scared’, and meaning well and wanting closeness and love but fearing to be hurt..
    > their vulnerability , some strong trigger there somehow..
    > M

    • Sylvia says:

      Hi Margaret. This cat is truly wild. But like you’ve said she does appreciate the digs I have set up for her; there is a shed with a box of blankets she can go to. For now she and kitten sleep under the shed. They were living next door under an unoccupied trailer, but still came over to eat here. I’ve seen her around for 3 yrs. but always assumed she might have owners but as I get to know her–don’t think so. When I bring food and her kitten (who is as big) accompanies, she hisses at me and threatens to charge me. I’ve practiced standing around like a cow and not moving and they seem to accept me as long as I’m 10 ft. away.
      She has a fully grown kitten who looks just like her–Siamese with blue eyes who comes at dark and talks meowing. I feed her too. Will be turning into the crazy cat-lady soon.

  109. Margaret says:

    > I suddenly felt touched thinking back of something my girlfriend noticed yesterday about the cats.
    > she was watching them eat together from their first plate of food, so they were quite eager, but she said the bigger cat from time to time removed his (big) head a bit to let the smaller brother eat.
    > thinking back of that I felt unexpectedly close to tears.
    > thinking about why I guess it is the simple niceness, not necessary to obtain anything at all, just caring kindness as a natural behavior..
    > we can learn so much from our animals.
    > why do I still start feeling teary?
    > maybe I longed for that kind of emotional generosity and attentfulness as a child, wanted it to be like that between all my family members, no fear, no pain, gentleness and generous caring..
    > feel the loneliness now of not having gotten my needs met, back then, and now.
    > still cherish the richness of those two furry miracles in my life.
    > finally crying.
    > kindness seems to become an oldfashioned word, one rarely runs into these days.
    > courteousness is also one I like, which makes me reflect on the art of giving, and how the exercise at the retreats which at the start felt phony and pointless to me, the exercise to give someone something, has proven very useful for me on hindsight.
    > now I find pleasure in trying to find gifts for family and friends that they will really like, and it feels actually better to give than to receive!
    > boy, it feels also good to be able to talk about simple but sensitive stuff here..
    > Jo, Leslie, Linda, Sandy,Vicky, Sylvia, and not to forget Fiona and Irena, hope to hear from you more again here now!
    > and of course all the guys, smiley, that goes without saying!
    > oh yes, sorry and Crystal, and I have a feeling I am forgetting another female blogger, sorry, memory starts aging slightly..
    > M

  110. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > for some reason your words about feeling frozen with fear for Patricks return in a month keep lingering in my mind..
    > what are you most afraid of? sounds like something old is triggered there.
    > it would be a shame if it would hold you back from writing here.
    > M

    • Larry says:

      I’m not frozen with fear Margaret. It’s more like I remain braced for his return and the inevitable ugliness and vitriol that he spews as a way to get attention here. It’s so ugly that I’m shocked by the realization and feeling about the unhealthy warped ideation that is out there driven by unconscious pain. I used to just think I could avoid weird people and they didn’t bother me, but now instead I feel alone, vulnerable, and subdued by the realization of the crazy thinking that is out there.

      I guess I’m feeling very alone, feeling a chill in my soul that I recognize from when I was little, a freeze inside that cuts me off from everyone, that even when I was little felt like I could never escape from but I didn’t want to know it.

      I’m on 4 day work weeks now. I don’t work on Fridays. The extra free time is unnerving. I fill it well though. Yesterday morning I caught up with some meaningful emails. I had a lunch meeting with a woman friend who is giving me leadership and support in the carrying out of a butterfly garden project I volunteered to coordinate at church. We spent most of the lunch connecting and talking about our lives rather than about the project. In the afternoon I had an appointment with a naturopathic doctor and had a meaningful and informative talk with her about personal health issues. In the evening I went to dinner with about 25 people from a singles social group. But at home late in the evening, there remained a nagging, cancerous emptiness in my soul that I recognize from childhood, draining my life of joy and meaning, that feels like my prison. I feel alone. I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it. I think as a kid I somehow had that sickening realization I was being driven to making myself into an island, but couldn’t let myself know.

      It’s been weeks since I had a cry. This morning I cried for the connection that Noreen and I had. I never before had such a connection with anyone. I cried being back there knowing she was going to die, knowing I would lose her and be alone again like I’d always been. I cried in appreciation for the bond of sorts that I do have with my youngest brother, who is 11 years younger than me, who is the person in my family who I most feel myself with. I cried imagining being with him and feeling allowed to be myself, cried feeling safe to be honestly who I am and feeling very very alone and hurting being alone, cut off from people because of childhood emotional injury.

      The aloneness and hurt has always been in me. It’s because the connection with my parent’s was impossible. It’s because their ideation, their consciousness, was too strange, too distant. It hurt to know that I couldn’t trust them with my feelings and who I am. But I couldn’t know and I couldn’t hurt, so I kept myself to myself. I built my prison that kept me safe, and alone, unknowingly, and apart from everyone.

      It shocks me that Patrick is so unreachable and so corrosive on human connection. I guess I’m in shock maybe with realization how frozen I’ve been much of my life because of lack of healthy nurturing human connection very early on.

      Patrick hurts people. It’s hard to open up here, and have exchanges with you where you open up to me, where we may create and environment of openness, vulnerability and trust, knowing he will come rampaging through and bombard people with ugliness and hate, because if he can’t get what we have then he wants to destroy what we have.

      • Sylvia says:

        I hear that Larry. Feelings are so delicate that they need a safe place to flower and repair. When we’ve been abused by thoughtless actions and lack of care we are more vulnerable too. I know when my mom was so controlling and disrespecting of me in her later years I felt like the women in shelters who husbands had mistreated them. And we who are mistreated are fair game for predators, those who wish to continue the hurting.
        Is it too much to want to heal in a safe place; don’t think so.

      • jackwaddington says:

        Larry: you are so expressive and your post really, really touched me … in particular one line ” I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it.”

        I felt, because I have met you, that I wanted to somehow help. I have no idea how I could do that, but there was the urge to offer it. I wondered in me where that one comes from; and yet I ‘kind of know’ that I am wanting to help the little me. OR, maybe there is this inside me, since I got a lot more than some, a sense that I somehow don’t deserve it. That I know for sure comes from my father who was for ever saying, suggesting, intimating that I (we his kids), didn’t deserve it, because he never got it either.

        I can’t get that line of your out of my mind:- ” I need connection with someone but feel I myself am somehow preventing it.” It’s not like you don’t ‘get out there’ cos you do.

        The Partick thing ….. Maybe because I did spend a great deal of time working with and for him … is really sad. Sad for him that he’s so out of touch with his his own deep childhood sadness, and only knows how to avoid it by the way he reacts. He’s not the only one reacting that way, as I see it. There are many, and that’s another load of sadness.

        I did yesterday have one great moment of joy. The Serbian guy I’ve been emailing and who’s been able to get into feelings on his own, that I met through Art’s blog. told me just how much better his life is now that he’s able to get into his own deep feelings. It gave me such great joy and encouragement. I would love to put his email on the blog, but I must get his permission first.


        • Larry says:

          Jack you and I argued a lot the first year or two I was on the blog, until we understood each other and finally met in person. Despite the initial arguing, more and more I felt you were at the core a decent person. I want you to know that you have helped me. I get it too that in some sense you are wanting to help the little you. You do deserve it.

          I notice you opening up on the blog more and more over the years, sometimes dropping the cantankerous intellectual front and revealing a good soul.

          • jackwaddington says:

            Larry: It’s interesting to know how I come across to others both in the past as well as the present. What you just said made me feel real good. Thanks Larry.

            I hope you are able to get some really good moments for yourself as you too deserve them. Boy, you’ve certainly done the ground work.


  111. Phil says:

    I have to say that the recent discussion here instigated by Patrick did have it’s benefits for me.
    I do feel the need to speak out when I hear someone promoting something so wrong right in
    front of me, and to make my position known. It goes beyond that though.
    When I continued with the effort to convince him, it becomes something else. It’s as if
    in convincing him then he would “see” me, the real me. It’s the same kind of struggle
    I would engage with my parents who didn’t see me. I was stuck with them, and can be drawn in
    to a similar struggle with other people. Also, in a group when someone is getting a lot attention,
    and I’m not getting any, then I also feel triggered, and have to say something.
    Maybe most people were tuning out of the discussion here, but that’s not what I was imagining.
    Sorry I’m such a mess!
    This led to some memories of my sister getting attention from my mother, about school homework. I wanted some of that kind of attention too, but was didn’t have any homework, as I was not yet in school. I just don’t remember ever getting positive attention from my mother.
    Incidents happen, as happened here on the blog with Patrick, which bring up feelings for
    me and I can put that to good use. But Patrick isn’t doing the same, so I certainly wouldn’t
    want him to go on and on here, since that isn’t the purpose of the blog, is it? I already
    got to me feeling around this and am glad he left the group for a while.


    • Sandy says:

      Phil, I’m reacting to your apology for being such a mess. I’m not sure what to say about it, but I can’t get it out of my mind… I think I want to say something like why are you apologizing, aren’t we all messes? And you’re not hurting anyone with it, so give yourself a break. Sandy.

  112. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > those sound like awful feelings you have to deal with. difficult too to process. I admire how despite that you manage to live your life at the fullest, and go out and socialize so much.
    > way to go!
    > Sylvia,
    > a tough cookie, or two tough cookies, but they do still charm don’t they? and these sound specially pretty and with a lot of personality.
    > I have always been curious a about Siamese, have never known one ‘personally’, but heard they indeed talk a lot.
    > take care, haha, you crazy cat woman, M

  113. jackwaddington says:

    My friend Nenad from Belgrade, Serbia has given me permission to post his email to me, on this blog.
    so here it is in full … unedited.

    “Hi Dear Jack, How are you going?
    I am so, so excited to tell you, but MAYBE I am starting to feel better, and to say that all of my primal work is paid off, and is paying off. I do less and less my frightening ticks-Screaming, almost nothing, yes it is the truth that I increased my dosage of dopamine blocker medication, but it is minimally dosage. And that is the reason why I am telling you-MAYBE- I am starting to feel better: my hands are not sweating anymore(and long time ago I realized that my hands were sweating because of hormone of stress, cortisol, when I am in stress my hands were sweating more), I can hold back my ticks for bigger period of time, I have more energy(not enough, but more than earlier), I am less shy, less afraid of people, more confidant, I started to have ambitions, and I started to plan my life and I love my life, I have desire to have a girlfriend, to be independent from my parents and brother financially, to finish and learn my shoe making lessons, and to open my own store of my shoes. … I am more involved with people, earlier I was avoiding them, and now, IMAGINE, I love to meet people, new people….All of this is not coincidentally., I put a lot of effort to overcome obstacles. I can easily cry, but not uncontrollably. I started to see one girl, I am not in love with her, but I like her, and who knows what time will emerge as new. We, even, had a conversation to live together. I think my life is getting better, and I am happy. I could not go to learn lessons from shoe repairing and shoe making, without your help, so Great Thanks to You.
    Also, I have much more space to improve even more my life and health, and it is terrible when I know that I missed my early years.
    Sorry Jack, I cannot write each day, it is too much for me because of foreign language, and i was busy some of the time. Your friend, Nenad”

    From Jack

  114. Vicki says:

    I finally got caught up here on what’s happened over the last couple of weeks. Larry, I was very impressed with a couple of your comments to Patrick, I thought they were on target and quite wise, and no surprise, he didn’t respond in a straight way, as he didn’t even “get” what you said. He just comes across as more insane almost with every successive post. There has even been a decay in coherence, in the way he attempts to express his views. Some disintegration. Anyway, thanks for persevering and writing as thoughtfully as you did.

    • Larry says:

      Thanks for you response Vicki. I’m glad you got caught up. Your life must be busy. And I’m glad you found the best dog in the world and she found you. 🙂

  115. Margaret says:

    > Sandy,
    > thanks, you are right, it is important and actually very nice to write about the joy of feeling love..
    > how are things going for you?
    > and Vicky, nice to hear you still have that little dog around, and sounds like you love it dearly, smiley! it is incredible how much they brighten up life, isn’t it?
    > Jack, it sounds like you helped your friend a lot there, it was nice to read how well he seems to be doing.
    > and Phil, I agree with Sandy, you have nothing at all to apologize for, you are such a nice person, and have indeed a lot to say.
    > you are a great guy.
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Thanks Sandy and Margaret, More on this came up for me last night. In addition to what I’ve already said; it was my fatherwho would never talk to me in a straight way; I would have to listen to hisB S on all kinds of subjects, none of it having to do him, me, or our lives.I’m still waiting for that straight conversation which never came.I should stop listening to all the B S and stop wasting my time. Phil

      Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 10:41:33 +0000 To:

  116. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > ‘B’s’? like in ‘bullshittters ?
    > M

  117. Margaret says:

    > just had my mom on the phone, I called her to remind her of the meals she should have in the fridge, but she ate them already seemingly, or could not find them.
    > she sounded a bit down so I tried to cheer her up, as she things she sees her boyfriend less now for not having her car anymore, so I told her once more that is not the case as he comes to her a couple of times a week.
    > I also told her to try not to get too much into negative thoughts like that if possible, as sometimes he comes by and she forgets he has been there, but she reacted with affirmative words but a plaintive kind of doubtful sound as to say yeah yeah, I don’t believe you.
    > that triggers me but a bit later on I got triggered even more by that plaintive tone of voice while saying things are ok, and even her getting a bit cross and saying but things are ok you know, I don’t coomplain do I? just after she did actually complain..
    > she would have more company at the nursing home but does not want to go there, so it is her choice to stay in her house, which I ointed out, that there are other options, but if she chooses for her house she is bound to be more on her own.
    > it is something about that tome of voice, I feel dumped on or something, it makes me angry, frustrated, it must resonate with old patterns as I feel ‘get a hold of yourself’, ‘be grown up’, ‘take care of yourself’,don’t complain about your own choices, don’t dump it on me, don’t make me feel bad, or responsible or whatever, or guilty for now feeling angry..
    > be strong!!!
    > be an adult!!! don’t put this on my shoulders!!
    > some forbidden words cross my mind like ‘I hate you!!’ I hate you! don’t make me feel this way!!!!
    > think about me!!!
    > ha, it feels good to let some of it out, even just like this!
    > M

  118. Margaret says:

    > Phil,
    > some days I actually end up feeling good after a call, and some days I end up clenching my teeth.. try not to work it out on her, it would not help and I would end up feeling worse.
    > good you still got to more feelings yesterday ..
    > did you get those pumpkins?
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, Yes I got four nice pumpkins which we will carve, fresh apples,and apple cider from a nearby farm. It was a nice day yesterday but cool. We also did some cleaning up outside. There was frost here last night, I believefor the first time this season.I needed an electric blanket for my car/primal box.Phil

      Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2015 17:55:37 +0000 To:

  119. Margaret says:

    > haha, Phil, that is one insincere apology!
    > we are coming close to frost at night here as well, brrr!
    > but cosy indoors then..
    > M

  120. Larry:

    I am having a delayed response to what you wrote to me on October 12th when we talked about who is being a parasite to others. Yes, it was a pseudo-intellectual discussion and you said:
    “Just responding with my opinion because I like you and I have some time today. But I don’t see how this goes anywhere.”

    Your response bothered me slightly at the time, yet I couldn’t put a response into words until today: “OK, Larry, I’m sorry I wasn’t able to transport you to a magical fairy feeling place every time we talk. I will try to do better next time, then.”

    • Larry says:

      The reason I didn’t see it going anywhere UG is because you never follow through on a discussion. You always eventually beg off, claiming you are running out of energy and you need to conserve it for more important other matters you are working on, and you leave.

      • I have to admit that is interesting because I’ve heard almost the same sort of critical examination of this apparent modus operandi of mine from Gretchen, as well. I am going to go figure out some other fun things to do; I will talk to you later, then!

        • “Pancake People” (quote below not my own; source provided upon request)
          “Children born in the early 21st century will likely never know a world without the Internet, cable television, online museums, and other forms of instant intellectual gratification. The average high school student in any developed nation has access to more information than some of the greatest minds in history, such as Socrates or Da Vinci, ever had in their lifetimes. Some critics of this phenomenon fear that instantaneous access to all of this information has the potential to overload or overwhelm users, however. Instead of delving deeper into one particular discipline, many people are now dabbling on the surface of many interests and subjects of study at the same time. Author Richard Foreman described those who have spread themselves thinly across a wide spectrum of subjects as pancake people.

          For many generations, scholars and artists tended to concentrate their energy on one particular subject or discipline. For William Shakespeare, that interest was literature; for Mozart, it was musical composition; and for Newton, physics. Visual artists were not expected to understand higher mathematics, nor were philosophers expected to study engineering. Without widespread access to libraries or the ability to disseminate their latest creations to the rest of the world instantly, many people toiled in relative obscurity to plumb the depths of their chosen vocations or subjects of interest.

          With the development of the Internet and other sources of information that can be accessed quickly and easily, many people strive to gain at least a working knowledge of many different subjects. So-called pancake people no longer concentrate their energies on one area of interest, but instead choose to spread themselves thinly over a large area. As a result, a new generation have essentially become the proverbial jacks of all trades, but masters of none. A linguist from the 18th may have studied Spanish or French until he or she could translate even the most complex literary works composed in those languages, but modern pancake people only learn enough of the language to navigate as a tourist. As long as the information necessary to perform a task or create a new work is literally at a person’s fingertips, there is always the risk of that person losing some intellectual curiosity.

          The term “pancake people” is largely seen as a negative commentary on the current age of instantaneous information. The ability to access even the most obscure information in a matter of seconds may be seen as a positive social development on one level, but it can also cause some people to become less inclined to delve more deeply into one particular subject of interest. As a result, a generation of overloaded pancake people may become more obsessed with the more surface aspects of culture and less interested in the larger arc of human history.”

          • jackwaddington says:

            Signifying what???? Before paper and printing presses it was all done by scribes.

            Live with the present for what it worth, and the only other thing you need to know is how you feel.

            So!!!! what the feeling????


            • Don’t you remember what Larry said to you, Jack? How gratifying it was for him to see that you’re dropping your cantankerous intellectual front and revealing a good soul? It’s disappointing to see you no longer maintaining the genuine qualities observed in you by your fellow advanced Primal patients so quickly.

              • jackwaddington says:

                Geeeeeeezzzzzussssss: You piss me off no end. In all my “cantankerous intellectual front” I’ve rarely encountered, on a ‘feeling blog’, anyone so intent on avoiding their own feelings and coming across, to me, as such a conceited mother fucker as you. I’m so pissed. I begin to wonder if there a feeling in your body and wonder why the fuck you ever came to do Primal Therapy and seemingly avoid it’s very essence.
                Piss off.. Jack

            • Sylvia says:

              Hi Jack. Maybe Guru is on his way to a feeling. He mentioned Gretchen’s assessment agreeing with Larry’s. And the recognition of Pancake people also reveals something of an admission of things not quite right.
              I am reminded of Janov’s in their tapes that a therapist does not always know where the client is going and cannot presume to, but has to wait until they are ready to bring it up or out when they feel safe and comfortable enough.
              Just my sense of things.

              • jackwaddington says:

                Sylvia: I don’t see, but maybe I am going blind, Guru on his way to a feeling. I feel the analogy to “pancake people” is not the most revealing. I feel ones assessment of what another is … says more about the person making the assessment; than those they are describing. Just me though.

                I think your assessment of Janov is correct. I too feel that it is the patient who eventually knows her/himself best. That, to me, separates Primal for all other psychotherapies.


          • Phil says:

            UG, Do your know any pancake people? My guess is they are a littledry, just lacking some maple syrup. Sorry I had to say that. People still go to college and study in their chosen fields. If they keep going with studiesthey will find a small niche to specialize in and because ofthe amount of knowledge those niches get smaller and smaller. If anything, In my opinion there is more specializationand there are maybe fewer people who see the big picture.Phil

            Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 03:11:18 +0000 To:

  121. Margaret says:

    > Jack,
    > I have a feeling you are projecting on guru.
    > actually you guys seem to have things in common from my point of view, both intellectual and smart, computer programmers, well, the rest to be filled in..
    > when I have such a reaction to someone that seems to come up so strongly and partially out of the blue, it is usually because that someone reminds me of myself with some quality or behaviour I don’t like (to look at) in myself..
    > or I think they are like that, as I say, there is a lot of projecting going on and often when I get to the reality of things more I find out stuff about myself and them and irritation vanishes.
    > your anger towards him seems disproportionate so maybe you should take some time and look at this for yourself?
    > partially selfish, smiley, want to avoid another long round of mutual accusations and insults,this time with one other cast.
    > follow your own rules and own your feeling, and who does he remind you of in your perception ?
    > M

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: You are probably right about me projecting. However, in my own defense I don’t feel there is anything unduly wrong about expressing my anger. But then that’s perhaps just my defense. I agree, on reflection, he comes across sopmewhat like my father. He, (my father), like my Jimbo, was always prone to react with “Oh my god”: whenever I was hurting or frightened. Like:- it was a bigger problem for him than what was taking place with me.

      If you meant Margaret that it sholuld have been sufficient for me to have just said “you piss me off” and then left it at that, perhaps? I’ll give that some thought.

      Hopefully that’s my meger attempt to follow my own rules.


  122. Margaret says:

    > Jack, that is a fine reply, thanks.
    > and there are many roads to Rome, as long as you are so open to looking at yourself and your motives I see no problem!
    > M

  123. Margaret says:

    > finally managed to go tango dancing again!
    > it was nice, my old dance partner was with me and it was organized by our former dance teacher, so we knew several people there and the mmusic was very varied, not only the classical oldfashioned tango but also the modern one.
    > so it felt good to be there, and also good to be back home now..
    > injured my ribs a little, my dance partner tried to lift me onto his hip a few times, but made a slight mistake so he squeezed my ribs a little too tightly during the lift, smiley, and now it is a bit sore.
    > but that’s ok, goes with the trying of ‘spectacular’ moves, which I like..
    > saved one of my cats too this morning, trying to watch the birds he had messed around with a curtain and one stitching thread got loose, and the lop got caught in his mouth and around his neck, just as well I pay so much attention to them I noticed it in time and could free him, and comfort him and them cut off the loose piece of thread.
    > saved my former cat a few times too, they are so curious and adventurous they tend to end up in tricky situations occasionally..
    > now they acted as if they were starving when I came home, despite their bowls being still half full with t
    > dry crunchies and lenty of water next to it..
    > but hey, a h
    > ggod show provides an immediate response of yummie canned food, or sometimes even freshly cooked chicken, haha, and they k
    > are splendid actors as all cats..
    > so now come down from all the dancing adrenaline and start to relax, haaaaa…
    > M

  124. Jo says:

    Having some nice family time in France………🌻🇫🇷🌿🍂😉

  125. Larry says:

    It’s nice to hear about nice things happening in people’s lives, too, on the blog.

    Living alone, in recent months hit by the mysterious health ailment polymyalgia rheumatica, I can easily start to feel fragile and negative about my life. Nothing new. I’ve been fighting the negativity all my life. But living alone and getting older, the negativity can come more readily.

    And then I get nice surprises that renew my hope in life.

    I’m there occasionally, but don’t spend much of my work time at the research farm. Mostly I’m in the lab or in the field. The guys at the farm tend to be a little rougher crowd, their conversation a little more loud and coarse and crude. Years ago when I first started working, I tended to avoid them. I’m quiet anyway. But over the years I got to know the guys and they are good fellas.

    I was out there last week, cleaning seed, kind of keeping to myself. I was surprised how during a break, one of them came to talk to me about our Canadian election, and then more fellas joined him, surrounded me and there was lively discussion about the election and then about the Blue Jays and Kansas City baseball games. I participated in the discussion and they consciously included me, wanting to hear from me. I felt very included, very good, and thought how much I used to keep myself an outsider of these kind of social groupings. The same thing happened at lunch. I sat at a table expecting to be a side show to the conversation, but instead guys sat down beside me and across from me talking directly to me, making me a central part of the discussion. I felt so included. I don’t know what it is. I never before had so much of this feeling of being an included important part of a group.

    I had a hard time making myself go to dance class last night after supper. I felt too tired and negative. I went. The ladies were enjoyable to be with, dance with and talk to. They were friendly and supportive. The evening was fun. I went home feeling positive and light hearted. It is so much healthier to get out and be with good people than to stay at home tired and alone.

    Tonight was dance practice. Tired and alone at home, I wondered whether I’d make myself go to the practice, my first one of the season. I wondered whether I dare risk having two good evenings in a row. Doubtful, I went. Once there, as I’m sitting down changing into my dance floor shoes, as other couples and good dancers keep arriving I think to myself, OK you’re not a good dancer but just try to make yourself stay for some practice and just try to enjoy it some. Then this woman arrives who I’ve never seen before in any workshops or dances. I’m immediately attracted to her. It’s an unconscious all senses brought to life kind of feeling, focused on her for the second or two she arrives and then is gone. She beams me an easy natural warm smile as she walks by. I smile back friendly yet in awe of her. I don’t dare to maintain eye contact for too long. A woman like her has a dance/life partner for sure I think to myself, or a choice from among many. Forget about even thinking of dancing with her I think to myself. I’m not a good enough, comfortable enough, confident enough dancer anyway for someone like her to want to dance with me.

    I step into the dance room. Music is playing. People are dancing. A couple of ladies are sitting alone, one much younger than me, one older. They glance my way a few times. I sense they are waiting me to ask them to dance, trying to look receptive. I’ve not done this since Spring. I wait for a while, building my composure, wondering which woman to ask. I know what both of them dance like. I know the younger one is a much better dancer and will be much more fun to dance with. I feel though like I should ask the older lady first. Some guy approaches and asks the younger one, I ask the other one. Finally I’m on the dance floor, getting the feel of it, enjoying myself and the company of the person I’m with at the moment. After a couple of dances, I’m off on the side standing out a few to catch my breath and regroup.

    But not for long, A nice lady a bit younger than me approaches me to dance, saying no young fellas are allowed to stand on the side alone. So we are on the dance floor for a couple. She is a nice lady, a nice conversationalist, and a nice dancer. Makes me feel as if I’m a good dancer. She keeps telling me I am.

    Then off on the side standing out a few, catching my breath, feeling a little more confident about being there at the practice and that maybe I will have a good time, surveying the room and wondering who to get up the nerve to ask next.

    At the end of a dance She peels away from her partner, walks towards and stands near me, getting a breather too. It’s the woman I was immediately attracted to when I saw Her walk in as I was changing my shoes. Do I dare ask Her to dance with me! She is so close, only a few feet away. Could I live with myself if I don’t!! So I turn towards Her and as I begin to ask Her, She takes a step toward me and asks if I’d like to join Her in this waltz. I can’t believe it. I hope that I’m not so in awe of Her that I blow it. On the dance floor, no awkwardness between us, in no time I sense She’s a wonderful dancer, an incredibly sensitive and agile follow. She tells me I am a terrific lead. Conversation is easy, or not at all but still easy, comfortable. We dance the second waltz together. I dance more aggressively, twirling in and out around the room among the others, me no longer worried that I will step into or bump into her. She reads me and mirrors my moves effortIessly. We float across the floor. I tell her she is an amazing follow. She laughs aww with a pleased, sensitive, female voice. I feel young and healthy, alive, at ease, on top of life. I could dance with Her all night. It feels like She would do the same with me. We should mingle though, and the practice only lasts an hour. I don’t want to overstay my welcome with Her, but she doesn’t seem to be tiring of me. We decide to each dance with others.

    I dance and talk with other ladies. The hour is over soon. I didn’t catch Her eye again. I didn’t see Her leave. I hope She’s at the next practice. I hope I go to it. I hope I see Her again at some dance or practice or workshop. I have to find out more about Her, even if all I ever end up with is just dancing with Her sometimes. On first impression, She seems perfect in every way. I tell myself She is way to good for me, it was just a dance. But I have to go where my feelings say to. I have to find out more about Her.

    To think I almost closed the door and didn’t go out this evening.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: Wow!!! just keep at it. It’s very inspiring to read you. I can only wish something turns out good for you. Man; you’ve waited long enough, and, as I’ve said before:- You’ve sure done your home work.


    • tom verzar says:

      Hi Larry
      Hang in there Man. You are on the right track. You are the new Romeo in your town. You have the looks. Go man , go.

    • Phil says:

      Larry, I’m glad you went out dancing last night and thatthings went so well. I hope you can find out more about the lady youmentioned.Phil Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2015 03:07:05 +0000 To:

  126. Otto Codingian says:

    John Lennon – Well Well Well. I listened to it a thousand times, sometimes it got me into a feeling. What it must have been like to have been in group and hearing John Lennon wailing off in a corner. That was way before my time in therapy.I really liked that about big group, other people crying or just hearing what they were saying to their therapist, and starting to cry myself. I guess that is probably the same as small group. Somewhat.

  127. Otto Codingian says:

    Janov writes that his professional life changed in a single day in 1967 with the discovery of what he calls Primal Pain. During a therapy session, Janov heard what he describes as, “an eerie scream welling up from the depths of a young man lying on the floor”. EUREKA. LIGHT BULB? WOWEE!

  128. Otto Codingian says:

    Eagles – Dirty Laundry 1080p LIVE. Not one of my favorite songs but watching the video makes me sad. Seeing the women dancing to the beat, and seeing the older-now Eagles play (still with energy), this makes me sad, i feel like i missed out, I never got into the Eagles much since i thought some of their hits were misogynistic, although I did like Joe Walsh, and now I read about him, and I feel a loss that i never got into these guys that much. Don’t know what I am saying. Wish I could say this in group or session and cry. Too tired to cry tonight. Driving Z to Ventura tomorrow morning so she can keep her minimal job. Not trying to say that meanly, just too tired to think of a non-mean word. I only listen to music videos when she is not here, she is out doing something somewhere, now it sounds like she is home.

  129. Otto Codingian says:

    63 and the memories of all my painful experiences on this planet just keep pushing up out of my soul into my consciousness and torturing me to no end. Didn’t visit dying grandmother in the horrible old folks home enough. guilt guilt guilt

  130. Margaret says:

    > Jo, nice to hear you are having a good time.
    > Larry, that was very catching to read, specially as I know the situation so well but then as being one of the women!
    > it is certainly inspiring and I am glad I just could bring myself to go again yesterday..
    > hope to be able to do it more often again.
    > I know the feeling of meeting someone attractive and how it opens up a world of possibilities. even if nothing happens afterwards, like they don’t show up or whatever, it still leaves a feeling at least the possibility of meeting someone you instantly feel attracted to exists, and maybe some day it might even be mutual..
    > in the meantime it is also just very nice and healing to be with friendly people and having a good time together, holding them and being held and for a while turning life into a graceful movement with a nice soundtrack..
    > Ottto, the the question crossed my mind a few times already whether you and your wife still have some good times or not?
    > is it all bad or is there still something good there as well?
    > M

    • Larry says:

      “…very nice and healing to be with friendly people and having a good time together, holding them and being held and for a while turning life into a graceful movement with a nice soundtrack.” That is a really good description Margaret of why dancing is a psychically and physically healthy activity.

      To it I would also add it is an excellent way to stir up your deepest insecurities that need to be overcome if you are to have fun. It’s taken me 10 years of classes to get to this point. Along the way a lot of insecurities flowed under the bridge as I cried them out, though often I just ran away and didn’t go to a dance.

      Overall though, ballroom dance has been an important activity that helps the long dark winter months pass more quickly, that arrests a downward spiral that can grow from social isolation, that helps me to have a positive mental outlook in going forward with life.

      I hope you dance more often Margaret.

  131. Jo says:

    Larry, that’s such a good narrative of your latest experience.. I was reading away – almost as though I was watching a ❤️ movie- and it was such a surprise that something like this happened to you, that I thought you were going to say. .. “And then I woke up” !!!!!…. ( that’s probably my ‘catastrophic thinking’ popping up ) !!💥
    Good luck and please keep us posted! 😉

  132. With Larry’s dancing and Otto’s reminiscing about the 70’s, I was left with no choice but to post this old feel-good classic (Abba “Dancing Queen”). The video provided some secondary chuckles now that Jack’s mad at me. I noticed this song was released during the same year as the movie “Star Wars” (1976); is that Luke Skywalker playing the guitar?

  133. Ulrich says:

    Haven’t been here in for many years, because it’s always been so exhausting to find a way through theses billions of words from mostly the same persons, but now that I feel abandoned by Barry, I had a need to come back, like walking the streets an ex-lover lived in: to feel some closeness.
    So I rushed more or less mindless through endless pages of comments, thoughts, and other disappointments rather than my own and stumbled over this cruel Holocaust discussion. I remember you Patrick, for I worked for Gentle Giant for some months in the late 80s, and I also remember your disappointment in PT, something I partly shared at that time (for I just started and waited for the magic moment).
    However, the validity of PT is not the topic of this post (disappointment should be, Pat, right?), but this stupid ‘Jewish’ discussion. I’m a German, who was born a decade after the war and got socialized in the intersection between denial, guilt, blaming others (for example the dead themselves) and coping. For me there is no doubt whatsoever that this mass murdering happened – like uncountable others since then and before. We share this planet with fuckheads and psychopaths, that’s a reality, but by shutting up and denying brutality we will for sure never get rid of them. Besides: For you it seems the reason to deny the Holocaust is the present of truth (correct me, if I’m wrong). But as much as I understand this personal urge and accept it as a positive element I don’t see any other objective reasons. Only hate, cold hearted stupidity and cold blooded pragmatism. In fact, the real danger I see in publicly promoting the idea of denying the craziness and sickness of the past is in preparing the homecoming of it.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Ulrich: If I remember you rightly you eventually went off to Florida and you had a boat. If you are the guy I’m thinking of, then we did for a time buddy over the phone. I feel you made a persuasive argument against the ‘holocaust deniers’

      I’m sorry you feel abandoned by Barry, but it’s great that you at least are responding to this blog. I personally, find it very therapeutic in it’s own way and keeps me on my feeling toes and less head tripping, as t’were.

      Just writing about the stuff that is going on with me is so revealing and keeps me in the ‘feeling zone’

      Hope you will be able to sum up enough courage and try it out. Not that difficult once I/we step into the water.

      Take care Unrich and will look forwards to your posts.


      • Ulrich says:

        Sry, Jack, neither had a boat nor went to Florida – though I’d liken a fate like that 😉 Thanks for your nice invite to keep up with postings, but as time goes by and working days rule, I mostly won’t have the time to stay updated. But, of course, I will stay connected in a way or another. I already did …

        • jackwaddington says:

          Ulrich: ok, no matter. I think Margaret’s idea about receiving comments by email by clicking the “notify me of new comments via email button” under the comment frame, after making the comment, is the best way …. saves all that plowing through strings of comments.

          It’s understandable when first coming onto the blog to go through at least the bottom of the list. Prior threads (as they are called) are perhaps now redundant … unless you’d like to revive one or another.


    • Larry says:

      I’m surprised that Barry ‘abandoned’ you.

      • Ulrich says:

        Well, actually I feel abandoned, left alone, mistreated. Guess it’s a therapeutic thing 😉 He did it twice before, and when the time comes I will talk to him about it. Sry, if I frightened anybody, that wasn’t my intention. I don’t think, Barry wouldn’t do such a thing in reality without a proper serious reason.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Ulrich: That’s what so compelling about this therapy. Yes we can tell anyone, especially a therapist what we feel about them. that the whole essence of it. Barry may or may not respond, but I doubt he’ll be ‘defensive’ about it.


          • Ulrich says:

            hhm, I guess I have to be more specific here since I brought up the topic and might have hurt Barry’s feelings and/or frightened somebody, who’s not having a stable relationship to him (yet). I feel abandoned for some different reasons, but I shouldn’t have mentioned Barry’s name in this respect. The feeling was triggered by him, that’s true, three different times in our long relationship by accident or on purpose, but is independent from the person Barry. I’m sorry, I thought I did point that out, but obviously not clearly enough as a PM showed. I came to this blog, because of that feeling (which is aiming at me, not at Barry), but posted, because of the crazy mass murdering discussion (which was aiming at Patrick).

    • Patrick says:

      Ulrich – I am under a self imposed ‘ban’ here until the middle of November but I don’t want to be ‘rude’ and not answer you. Also my computer is on the fritz until Monday at the earliest so that’s another reason I can’t write now. I am sending this from the Library which have maybe the slowest computers in the whole world it feels.

      But I will only say for now I see things very differently to you. But I like the way you put it you seem sincere and respectful if ‘wrong’ as I see it. I wonder where you live…….because if it is in Germany you better be careful and really you do not have a choice in what you say and think. If you have any doubt about that read the career of Germar Rudolp who is German and lived in Germany. You will see pretty clearly you do not have a choice in the matter that is if you want to stay out of prison. Right there might be a good place to try to assess what is really going on. Now back to my ‘ban’

      • Ulrich says:

        Yeah, I’m a German and live in Germany. Germar Rudolp unfortunately also (but lives in the USA). As a background for Jack, Larry and the others: Rudolp had been sentenced in Germany to a bit more than 2 years for publicly denying the Holocaust, guess around 2005 (Wikipedia should know). Her published some ‘scientific’ books about the topic, if I remember correctly. (Somehow people in general seem to have a very strong need to cover up lies and assumptions with ‘scientific proof’ as if a bunch of words proove anything else than ‘brainwashing is possible’. But, hey there, see the bright side: If you master words, you can produce any truth you want.)

        And, yes, in Germany it’s not allowed to promote Nazi ideology or support it. In the years after the war this has changed from a a conviction to a more ‘politically correct’ law, but if you ask me a law that makes sense. Don’t get me wrong, like Gretchen above I do believe it’s overly important people will have the possibility to express themselves, as fucked up there opinion as it seems to me, because of you listen long enough, it’s always pain at the bottom – but there comes a certain point in time, when it gets dangerous for others and should be stopped.

  134. Margaret says:

    > hi Ulrich,
    > how come yu feel abandoned by Barry?
    > I agree with there being a lot of psychopaths and fuckheads around, but also worrying is the human tendency to displace responsibility as soon as some ‘authority’ figure tells us to do something.
    > remember that experiment with students and a socalled professor in a socalled study of learning, who had to give increasing electroshocks to a fellow student every time he gave a wrong or no answer to a test question..
    > Milgram’s experiment but I am not sure, might have been someone else.
    > sad thing is if i remember well more than 60 percent of every group of participants went all the way up to the possibly lethal voltage that increased with every misssed answer, despite the so called victim, an actor really luckily, was screaming and yelling to stop and even pretennding to have passed out. still participants continued to push the button to give a shock upon being told by the supervisor it was important for the experiment they did..
    > this test has been repeated many times and always with a similar outcome.
    > I just obeyed orders is sadly a very common excuse, which most of us would have a strong tendency to apply under stressful circumstances or when not obeying has consequences..
    > this test was originally designed to prove it does not take what is regarded as monsters to participate in such tragic events instead of bringing ip the courage to refuse..
    > i see similar emotional reactions now sometimes towards the refugees who sometimes are attacked simply for being there by some..
    > it takes a strong mind to stick to what is right, and most of us can easily become cowards under certain circumstances, sadly enough..
    > glad you posted here, if the hassle is too big to scroll through the lot here, switch on the button to have the comments sent to you by mail, saves a lot of scrolling up and down I think..
    > easy to delete as well, smiley
    > M

    • Ulrich says:

      Margaret, appreciate you mentioned Stanley Milgram’s ecperiments here and in the past I actually thought quite some times about what would have happen to me if I grew up under different circumstances (society wise), as a gear in the Nazi empire for example. To be honest, I don’t see myself as a good guy: I’m selfish, scroogie and cowardly also. Sometimes I’m forced to make a stand, but the respective outcome isn’t necessarely who I am deep down.

      This reminds me of a documentary I saw some times ago about some Nicaraguan divers, who relie on defect equipment to make a living. They got help from a young American and to make it short: At the end of the docu I had to realize that this young man brought more sense into his comparatively shorter life than I did in many decades more. So, at times I feel very sad about myself, because I realize I’m just a hamster and working bee, generating wealth for a few already wealthy people, but am to lazy and cowardly to turn the car around …

  135. Larry says:

    From 11 am to 6:30 pm today were 5 ballroom dance workshops, about an hour and a half each. I went to 3 of them, until 5 pm. I learned new patterns. I was with nice people. But it was a lonely day. And She didn’t attend. Good thing. I was in an empty, hurting, lonely no fun space, the kind where it’s hard to face the world and I want to withdraw.

    At home in the evening I cried. Life can turn so ugly. Life can end, too soon, the departed leaving survivors with miles deep hurt and grief. A child can be doomed to being alone, cared for but unseen, unloved, for all of life. I am alone. I hurt.

    I’ve been hiding from more hurt than I can bear. I have more hurt in me than life. I can only plod on,one foot in front of the other, one at a time. I hurt too much! How could anyone want me!

    She is a phantom of what could be, what in a parallel universe might be, but not for me in this one. I am unwantable.

    • tom verzar says:

      Hi Larry
      Not to take anything away from your feelings, but have you thought perhaps your Lady friend may feel unwanted also? She could’ve also gone home feeling unwanted. Unwanted by you. I am exaggerating a little bit here, but you know what I mean.
      Perhaps you may consider trying to contact her and see where it may lead. See her response.
      I know, it is tough, it is a tough task. But I’ll barrack for you. And if she needs a referral about you, point her towards me.

      • Larry says:

        The alone empty worthless feelings are coming up anyway Tom. The possibility of Her accelerates and intensifies them, which is a good thing because I need to deal with them and with the effect my past is having on me. I also think the approach of winter brings on isolation and difficult feelings to manage and wrestle with.

        Right now She is mostly a figment of my imagination. If I ever see Her again, I will try to talk to Her more and test what is reality. If She shows any interest I likely will have to deal with even more severe feelings of self-doubt and worthlessness.

        • jackwaddington says:

          Larry: Sad sad and more sad. What a life, especially the beginnings of it for you. The insane cruelty inflicted on little children .,.. makes me cry.

          I was lucky, but I have enough of my feelings now, from this therapy to feel someone else’ sadness.


  136. Margaret says:

    > yesterday my brother brought our mom over to my place.
    > it was nice to see her, as on the phone earlier on she had sounded confused.
    > now she seemed better, and it was nice to try and give her a good time while she was there.
    > I feel a bit guilty though about not letting her take a thick ancient medical encyclpedia home, full of awful odfashioned pictures and photographs from the beginnings of last century, all kind of diseases and siames twins etc.
    > It was hers before but she gave it to me, and now I feared that she would damage it or lose it or whatever, as it has also loose parts in it, so I tried to refuse gently to let her take it home to ‘readmit..
    > rationally it makes sense but emotionally I feel like some uptight selfish bitch somehow…
    > but she quickly moved on and is bound to forget it but still…
    > a bit later though I found her behind my piano, and that was so nice, as to our surprise she played some wellknown and happy oldfashioned tunes, improvising and clearly having a great time, showing off with a funny riddle in the end..
    > it was also painful, as this is how we, as I think it also goes for my brother, love our mom most, and did as children, as behind the piano she is adorable and simply herself, a talented sensitive playful human being, at that moment not needing anything of us and therefor much easier to love..
    > it hurts as she is getting old and time runs forth..
    > the good thing is that when she stopped playing and said she might buy a piano again, I mentioned the home and that she could go there just to play and would be welcomed probably..
    > she said she might go and live there at some point soon, as it seemed like a nice place really…
    > so maybe next week I will take the encyclopedia to her and leave it there for a while, although chances are she won’t look at it, maybe she will like doing so and she has always been very generous in giving stuff away, so why not, if it can give her some pleasure.
    > it hurts to see her getting old and frail.
    > and I feel some kind of disgust about Patricks brief visit here to simply say he thinks he knows better about what happened in Germany than Ulrich who grew up there and is German.
    > talk about arrogance.
    > M

  137. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich,
    > yes, I know what you mean.
    > as a kid, say about ten, I joined some kind of youth movement, because some friends of my class were in it.
    > it turned out to be very rightwing Flemish nationalist kind of stuff, but hey, I loved to walk around with flags and yelling wahtever the others yelled until my dad found out what it was about and got me out of there and into another more neutral youth organization, in which I actually did not stay for very long..
    > but as a young person it is so easy to get carried away without having a clue what it is all about, only the approvment of the leaders you look up to, and secretly had a crush on in my case counted, and the thrill of the physical exercise and adventure and even the marching, for heaven’s sake, were appealing to my young and eager spirit longing for attention and a feeling of companionship..
    > glad my dad got me out of there now, but at the time I did not appreciate it so much..
    > but yes, it shows how we all get formed or brainwashed to some degree by our surroundings ..
    > later on I fell for the thrill of the wild seventies, feeling all those freaky longhaired dudes felt like one big family, or well, a bunch of possible lovers, smiley..
    > a long story , too long ..
    > now finally feeling I can see things in a more relative daylight,gained just a bit of wisdom, not that much but some, better late than never..
    > M

  138. Larry says:

    This song by a talented artist about the 1200 missing and murdered indigenous women in Canada is striking a chord in me. I think it is hitting a raw nerve in me about how unsafe and harsh life is for some people.

  139. Larry:

    I can sense you’re going through a rough time right now, and I don’t want to take away from that. We can go right back to the topics at hand; I just want to post this follow-up from MSN news about Donald Trump. You and I had a talk a short while back about the highly successful being potential parasites on others, and I am going to provide this anecdotal clipping from an MSN story showing a bit of what I meant, OK? It does not mean I am a non-feeling person. Rather, it means I want the same freedom as the graffiti that was allowed to be caked onto the Institute’s walls at Pico Blvd. next to the French school back in the day:

    In 1991, the Trump Taj Mahal Casino, which had opened just a year before, filed for bankruptcy. Trump had financed it with $900 million in junk bonds. Although the company—and not Trump personally—filed for bankruptcy, he unloaded his Trump Princess yacht, his Trump Shuttle airline and stakes in other businesses.
    The Taj bankruptcy hit Atlantic City’s small businesses much harder. Trump already had a reputation for being a very tough negotiator with suppliers—an echo of his campaign promise to negotiate the best trade deals for America. Contractors were so accustomed to getting paid cents on the dollar that they habitually built in an extra percentage, according to one Atlantic City bankruptcy lawyer.
    J. Michael Diehl, who owns Freehold Music Center, sold Trump eight Yamaha grand pianos for around $100,000. “He put out a bid for pianos about a year before the Taj opened. I won the bid. I delivered the pianos, and I waited and I waited to get paid. And finally I heard from them that I had three choices: to accept 70 percent of the bid or to wait until the casino could afford to pay the bill in full. Or I could force them into bankruptcy with everybody else and maybe get 10 cents on the dollar. I took the 70 percent, and I lost 30 percent.”
    Talking to earlier this summer, Diehl said, “I’m not going to vote for him, that’s for sure. That’s a crude way of doing business.” Representatives at Trump’s company declined to comment on Diehl’s account and did not return calls for this story.
    New Jersey state Senator Jim Whelan, Atlantic City’s mayor during the Trump years, and other sources who asked not to be quoted say Trump had a bad reputation among vendors even before the bankruptcies. “The fact is, there were a lot of small contractors and vendors who got hurt, who went out of business because Trump did not pay contracts on time,” he says.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Is any of this about Primal stuff; let alone about feeling stuff? … unless the only feeling is you don’t like Donald Trump. I think any feeling person sees right through the guy. If you are having private emails or phone calls with Larry keep it to that.

      One line mentioning Larry’s state of being then a whole slough on D T. You really seem to spend a lot of time and effort on all this that I would consider bull shit.


      • Jack: Remember when you used to say that the blog is not therapy? You cannot possibly have therapy on the blog? Now the rules have changed to suit your purposes.

        I’m not stopping anybody from posting what they want to post; why do you feel the need to stop me from posting what I want to post? Are you the second incarnation of Arthur Janov with your censorship attempts?

        Donald Trump is definitely an amusing character, to be sure. Perhaps dangerous to a lot of folks, but still entertaining.

        I don’t have to justify what I am doing for you in the slightest manner whatsoever. If you don’t like what I am saying, ignore me! It’s no skin off my ass.

        • jackwaddington says:

          It’s not who and what you are stopping, BUT what you are relating to, on a blog meant primarily for feeling-full events. “Crooked thinking” again, as designated by the guy you seem intent NOT to read.

          You don’t have to justify anything to anyone .,.. other than yourself … IF, you are willing to delve into the depths of yourself. Was not the purpose for you and many of the rest of us, coming to this therapy???? Maybe not in your case!!!


          • Simmer down there, ole Tory. Your favorite sparring partner Patrick will be back in a couple weeks or so.

            • jackwaddington says:

              Meantime, until the other one arrives back, it’s fun poking you.

              Guru’s don’t cut it with me.


              • Patrick says:

                That gives a good glimpse at the dynamics of the ‘endless argument’…………..something the likes of Larry and Margaret and many others ignore either deliberately or from not being bothered to paying attention. Or maybe because the perceive you as being on ‘their side’…………….what I call ‘group think’……………..

                • jackwaddington says:

                  I was not aware that poking those that seem to “think crookedly”, was group think. But then I kinda feel that you THINK you the ALMIGHTY thinker.

                  Not my idea of you at all … even after 27 years of knowing you.

                  Why did you come out of your “kennel” … so early?????


  140. The sense of parasitism I was directly facing a long time ago was much more complicated than the straightforward story of Trump in my last post. I estimate approximately $200 billion per year in human costs associated with high-speed automobiles in the US. Why do the largest businesses and companies feel entitled to the benefits of such machinery without ponying up any of the collateral costs? I won’t go any further than this, because I need to focus my attentions elsewhere. I just wanted to provide a nutshell explanation of where I am personally coming from.

    • Fore me. this was a devilishly hard question for a pre-schooler to face. There is really no point in my continuing to ponder how horrific it is at any length. Life is exceptionally fragile from the Primal perspective and exceptionally cheap from the hardcore capitalist perspective (as Ulrich alluded to earlier by servicing the very rich, etc.).

      • (TYPO) Yes, yes, I meant to type “For” and not “Fore” as the first word in my last post, hahaha.

      • Phil says:

        UG, All of this, of course, probably isn’t what you would have been thinking about asa pre-schooler. Any ideas on what was going on for you at that time? In my case I was school age when I lost my mother. She was very sick and I rememberhaving fantasies that she’d get better and become a real mom for me, although it should have been pretty clear that wouldn’t be happening. Maybe not clear to me as it wasn’t discussed.Also, she was never a good mother even while less ill when I was younger.Phil Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 10:17:21 +0000 To:

        • Phil: I said that about the $200 billion per year to a pre-schooler thing facetiously. Yes, it was a completely barren wasteland of no answers. Extremely frightening. I really can’t break down the phrase “impossibly challenging” to the phrase that resonates with a two-year old.

          I’m sorry your hopes were dashed as your mother’s condition worsened and your mom didn’t become a real mom for you in the fullest way she could (or, at least, try to learn to be a real mom even if well). I have vague memories of when I was five and I used to fantasize a lot in school too. A teacher once complained to my aunt about that on my report card. Little did that egotistical teacher know…

          • Phil says:

            UG,I don’t think women can train to become good mothers. Well, maybe a few tips could help; like breast feed and don’t spank. In Janov’s latest blog entry I was interested to see that he lists multiple sclerosis, diabetes,and heart disease as possibly caused by epigenetics and ultimately a lack of love.My mother had multiple sclerosis, so that kind of correlates to me withher not being a good mother. Her mother, my grandmother, was a cold women;not much love coming from her. She lived a long time but died of heartdisease. My grandfather died at a young age from a heart attack and Iremember my grandmother telling me he was a workaholic. I think Ican say with accuracy that my mother got little love as a child. I can also seethe effects on her brothers, one who is still living and the other who I rememberwell.Phil Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2015 18:05:12 +0000 To:

            • Phil: I do remember the old Primal literature about good mothering will instinctually come about once a lot of therapy has taken place. (ie. fully-feeling mothers are the best mothers). I still think just having one to begin with would be miles better than what you or I received.

              Workaholics having heart attacks early are common. My cousins are an exception to this rule, though.

              Would you like to share a bit more about your dad? I know I get along tremendously better with my dad than I did 20 years ago.

              Or, if you prefer, can you describe in more detail exactly how your grandmother was cold to your mother and your uncle? Was it emotional distance? A lot of criticism?

  141. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich,
    > that’s ok, don’t worry about how you frased it, I feel all of us that got to know Barry a bit know he would never abandon someone.
    > I had a lot of feelings about him in the style of not being interested or not caring or being fed up with me at the time.
    > I once asked him if he did something on purpose to trigger me and I believe his reply, which was ‘there is enough pain without me wishing to add to it, I’d never do that’
    > on the other hand when we take initiative to act out towards him in ssome way, and he feels we can deal with it, his reaction might be painful to us as then he does what feels therapeutically right at that very moment.
    > I remember sitting next to him in group and trying to lean my head against his knee, as so many patients seemed to go for hugs with therapists and I was needing badly.
    > he pushed me gently away..
    > I just tried once more, and he did the same thing, and that time it immediately triggered me right into the feeling and I was on the floor crying my eyes out.
    > and then there was his hand touching me to reassure me I was doing fine…
    > he did exctly the right thing then on that specific moment for me.
    > for years he would keep a bit of distance as that was the feeling I needed to go into about my dad, only giving me goodbye hugs upon leaving for home, but when I worked my way through that awful feeling of need, he also became more actively showing affection, as I did not struggle for it so much anymore.
    > now I am a hundred procent sure he likes me, and that is one exceptional thing to be able to feel about someone, to feel completely accepted and well, appreciated, liked? which does not mean occasionally things are said that I do not like but then it can easily be adressed and resolved..
    > now I need to work through still through some fears about being rejected and disliked by my mommy dear, which makes it scary sometimes to work with Gretchen for a change, but it feels necessary.
    > sometimes it is fine, sometimes my fear and insecurity take over..
    > told my mom on the phone yesterday I will bring her the old medical encyclopedia on my next visit so she can look through it for as long as she wants to keep it.
    > glad I did, I feel being able to be nice is something that could maybe use some more attention in therapy, as paying attention to what is enjoyable and good in life, as opposed to e
    > what is painful.
    > they are both important, and the more pain we feel we indeed get more able to enjoy, but still, paying active attention to what feels good in life does feel helpful as well and also seems to enable me to feel deeper levels of the pain..
    > just thinking out loud here..
    > Ulrich, do you feel like telling us some more about yourself?
    > I am curious, yes, smiley..
    > M

    • Ulrich says:

      Margaret, thx for your empathic reply. I regret I don’t know you in person, you seem very sensitive to me. I also like the way you write (except the arrows ;-), but I suppose that’s because you answered via mail client. 🙂

      As for your curiosity: I don’t like leaving too much private data on public platforms, I’m afraid. I’m working in the digital business and know too much about the downfalls of the 21st century and the dispossession of Internet user’s data.

  142. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich, the arrows are because my comments get copypasted onto the blog by Phil.
    > I work with a screenreader by sound, as I lost most of my eyesight back in ’97.
    > the screenreader does a fairly good job, but some websites remain a hassle nevertheless for me to navigate through.
    > have you ever attended a retreat or do you consider going to one?
    > I plan on going to next summer’s as I skipped this year, felt al the hassle of travelling and organizing my stay this year was too much on top of all the other stuff I had to deal with.
    > but every time I go I kind of feel I could get used to living there, smiley..
    > will be hard to leave my two young cats behind for a few weeks though, haha, but well, about ten months still to worry about that..
    > are you back in Germany or still in the U.s>, or well, it is ok if you rather don’t answer of course, just couldn’t hold back from being just that curious still, smiley .
    > M

  143. Margaret says:

    > UG,
    > extremely frightening gives an idea.. I hate to think of how it must have been..
    > deprived is a word that comes to mind both for you and Phil’s childhoods..
    > Jack, you are not being helpful at all there, give it a break please?
    > M

  144. Patrick says:

    Ulrich – here I go breaking curfew again but it’s ‘self imposed’ so I suppose what I can make I can break. But I just wanted to say ‘HI’ before you go away again if you do. I was driving to day and :I’m thinking “Ulrich” do I know you, I knew 2 other Ulrich’s but one of them was the same as Jack mentioned, he had a boat etc and you said that was not you. The other one I was pretty sure was not you and you mentioned you worked with me. And then it just popped into my mind, you I mean I had not thought of you or ‘remembered’ you forever well for say almost 30 years and then I could remember you so clearly. We worked together on moving jobs I am thinking about 10 times. (I like when I can remember like that something I had ‘forgotten’ feels like getting a bit of my brain back)

    And I remember you fondly, you were a very cool (nice) guy very supportive as a ‘helper’ I was the ‘driver’ the one in charge and I remember things went very smoothly when you worked with me. You were ‘quiet’ you were in the early days of your therapy and I remember deciding not to ‘influence’ you at all. To let you make up your own mind, find out for yourself. It is true what you say I was in the ‘dissapointed’ stage but I remember thinking that’s MY take it was up to you what your take would be. But I suppose the ‘disappointment’ still came across.

    My ‘ban’ is still in effect but I only want to touch on one thing. Margaret seems to think it is very ‘arrogant’ of me to think I might have some understanding about Germany different to you since you live there. Well……………….that’s a very poor argument very often the people closest are the ‘last to know’ This was/is true in my own case. I have talked here about how the English took everything from us our culture, our language, our religion we were truly and completely fucked over and the result was I and many many others thought/think the English are wonderful. I idolized their soccer players, musicians, writers etc etc and my brother is the same He has lived in England for over 45 years now and ‘loves’ it there. I have had quite a few ‘insights’ how I devalued everything CLOSE to me and worshiped things ‘far away’

    I am not for a moment trying to say you have anything like that going on but think about it………………..the Germans were beaten badly in the war but maybe worse they were then convinced they were some kind of monsters. They were not it is hard to say who was the ‘worst’ in that war (my vote would be for Winston Churchill – maybe for my own reasons). Germany was and still is thoroughly degraded and must be full of ‘self hate’. They were given no other choice. So Ulrich this is nothing personal I have good and warm memories of you but when you are REALLY fucked over you are often the ‘last to know’ SONG Not really ‘appropriate’ to what I am talking about this is a ‘love song’ but anyway it seemed apt is some way. I mean the idea of ‘last to know’ if you are REALLY fucked over you WILL be the last to know

    • Ulrich says:

      Yeah, that was me. Still is, I haven’t changed much. I also remember you quite positive. Our ways went off in different directions after an argument we had, but I still see you smiling most of the time. Even though I won’t ever work for you again 😉

      About Germany being thoroughly degraded: That’s simply not true. Germany plays an important role in Europe – and are doing the same as they did two times before. They are fucking it up. I seems like as soon as Germans are in charge without having to fear to be made responsible, they get out of control. Like cowards usually do. Give them an ideology to lean on, be it ‘The German Nation’, Nazi fuck or Neoliberalism, you better beware. Right now our government is destroying the Greeks and if you ask me, I am not the last to know …’

  145. Margaret says:

    > I had two great dreams this night.
    > one long and detailed one featuring mr. Bernfeld, where we spent a long time talking and walking by some quiet rural seaside, I distinctly remember me saying at some point, at the end of one topic, ‘and I feel sad about my mom getting old’ , and added, thinking we were in ‘free time’,or more specially his free time, but that’s for later..’
    > specially the atmosphere warmed my soul, as it was purely warm, understanding and affectionate.
    > we even had tea in the last part of the dream, with more people around, and at the very end Barry handed me his cup of tea, and while I took one more sip before leaving I noticed how the cup was engraved with the word ‘truth’..
    > is a bit silly, as in my brain coming up with this cup of tea, and at the same time while writing it down now I feel a rise of emotion and tearfulness and gratitude.
    > then I had a second dream more in a kind of retreat setting, a lot of people around, and at first I could not get in touch with Barry, arrived late, but then got to talk to him some more about my feelings, again while walking around, this time looking at some magnificent horses.
    > that made me ask him if I would be allowed to ride his most beautiful but prettty wild black horse, and he seemed hesitant, and I became aware it was because of my poor eyesight, and that put me in a feeling of … no, it did not put me into it, brought me in touch with it, it seems too big and painful to go in now, how terribly I miss the freedom of my eyesight.
    > now I do feel like crying..
    > M,

    • Larry says:

      Sounds like a huge connection there between your Mom and your eyesight, and loss of both.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Margaret: I wonder if you remember when you were ill with menangitis if you remember the moment when you felt your sight going. I mention this since I have always felt sad about your loss of your sight. I too have supposedly had bad eyesight since being little and had some memories how when I was first tested for eye sight at 4y/o in school, I remember distinctly wondering what the hell was the guy asking me about. I was not letters but pictures of a hands: which direction it was pointing. I thought the game was silly and didn’t see the point.

      Next thing I knew I was having to put these dangling things on my face and I hated them and each year the upped the perscription. I wish in hindsight they’d just left it with me to decide what I could and couldn’t see. Then at 27 I got contact lenses. Wow! that was so great … full eyesight without those ‘dingle dangles’ hanging on my face.

      I feel the very same about hearing aids. My Jimbo talks so soft and yeah I suppose I am going deaf a bit, but I refuse to have those things clipped onto my ears and seemingly it’s not getting worse. Just for the record it always irritates Jim that I don’t hear him whilst he prefers to continue wispering. Like my dad it’s a bigger problem for him, that I don’t have first rate hearing, than it is for me.

      Shit … did I pick me another daddy????????


  146. Margaret says:

    > Larry, hadn’t looked at it in that way yet, smiley..
    > it is more to me like every now and then i realize myself to which extend the very bad eyesight makes it all still much harder..
    > it was good I could cry this morning after writing that comment, about all the things I lose out on.
    > the stuff I loved to do, the exploring, the horsebackriding in the woods, just me and the horse, feeling well, happy really, satisfied, enjoying life.
    > the sheer pleasure of looking around for pretty surprises like a small flower or bird or squirrel, I am starting to cry again.
    > I miss staring at the sea or ocean waves so very much, my brain gives me regular treats of them in my dreams, as well as of starry skies and gorgeous landscapes and even buildings, ten times higher and prettier than in reality and full of stone and wood carvings and sunshine falling in through coloured glass from hundreds of meters high etcetera…
    > then in my dreams I look at it all in conscious awe and admiration, occasionally in some dreamms literally crying because of the beauty.
    > that is what I miss, and it is immense, am crying again.
    > also my independence, and the connecting with people at some distance or nearby with just a glance, and the deeper connecting of looking in one’s eyes while communicating..
    > good I can write and cry about it now..
    > not being able to move around freely taking the world in is another big loss, have to stop and cry more now.M

  147. Margaret says:

    > Larry, thanks for replying as it gave me an entry to some deep pain..
    > last week my halfsister called me to say she had gone to clean our dad’s grave, and put flowers on it, as it was a mess.
    > I told her I had planned to go one of these weeks with my brother and mom, and when I added if I would still be able to drive, I’d certainly have gone there more often, I could have started crying which took me by surprise back then as I cannot spend too much time on the fact of being blind in my daily life in order to function..
    > kind of tend to focus on what does remain possible and nice, but hey, it is important and does feel like a relief to let it out again.
    > some of it at least..
    > I guess part of me still subconsciously clings on to a ray of hope eventually things will turn right again, and I will be my old, or young intact self again, but wiser and more conscious of what really matters in life…
    > now I am facing the fear to gradually grow older, on my own, having to let go of dreams and hopes, like sailing over a blue lagoon and learning to dive and to enjoy the fabulous underwater world for example…
    > I did gallop around on a horse still even while being blind, but without caring company everything gets very complicated to organize and enjoy…
    > also my hopes for a boyfriend, or well, a middle aged male friend, are slowly fading as the years go by..
    > one good thing is I have a turbulent and adventurous life to look back on, and have deeply enjoyed soaking up the sight of let’s say the pinky colours of the sky and mediterranean sea right after sunset, one of the moents of the day I wlways found the most beautiful there…
    > luckily I still have enough restsight to enjoy the gracious beauty of my cats, enjoy a sunny day, and get some vague idea of my surroundings if possible..
    > I am still very glad I started studying again, it helps me to feel I am making something of my life still in some way..
    > I still feel capable of undertaking so much, with good company by my side, and do undertake some of what could be still on my own, like travelling to L.A. almost yearly for example..
    > but you know it very well, dear Larry, a simple thing like washing dishes gets way more satisfying if you can do it together with someone , good company lifts up life so much…
    > another reason to cry, shit..
    > M

    • Ulrich says:

      Margaret, I read your latest posts and I am really, really stunned about HOW MUCH you actually see and painted out for us. Thanks for that, I appreciated each of your post. Most people don’t see a fraction of that, even if they had a billion eyes all over.

  148. Margaret says:

    > Jack, it was after more than a month in the hospital, that I started saying to people visiting me ‘isn’t it a dark day today?’, and they responded ‘no it is rather sunny’, a few times I noticed , robably later than they did, something was wrong, and getting worse seemingly.
    > at the same time I was losing my balance, even had a hard time sitting up in bed all of a sudden, while during my first week in the hospital I still sneaked out for long walks in a nearby wild little park, or shrub, which had hidden spots full of wild flowers.
    > so I asked the professor when he entered my room what was going on with me all of a sudden, I really felt panicky, and he did not answer me at all, simply turned around to his students, telling then here they hd a fine example of so and so…
    > it freaked me out and my home physician happened to visit me just a bit later on and my mom, and he was so disgusted by how iI was (not) treated there, actually I did not know it but they had already told my mom they could only give me palliative care from then on, so well, he was appalled and ordered an ambulance to move me to another hospital.
    > the trip was almost too much for me, on arrival I got into a fit two times, waking up with a rubber thing clenched between my teeth, my mom by my side all the time..
    > it must have been very hard and heavy for her, but she was always supportive in the best and most reassuring way possible.
    > but wel, the point was iI had other things on my mind and the doctors also said the vision problem might be temporary, until the pressure on the brain diminished..
    > so I paid little attention to it really, feeling safe with my mom there all day long, every day of those 3 months and a half.
    > she broke her foot, but managed even to be put in my room, so in the end iI had her there day and night, which felt very good and really helped.
    > in that second hospital they finally sent me someone to teach me the braille alphabet, which I picked up, not by feeling but just the division of 1 to 5 ping pong balls in a box with six divisions, so just learning the system, which I found easy and the surprise of the teacher I was so fast pleased me, I remember.
    > then bad experiences followed, with young ergotherapists not knowing what to do with me and wanting to teach me how to put a thread in a needle and to sow, which I did not like with good eyesight either so I refused as it made no sense.
    > another one had the brilliant idea to take me up some fire stairs and leave me at the top telling me to try and make my way down, which put me in a horrid panic attack. my mom was sooo angry at them!!!
    > I also had visual hallucinations, as my brain needed to adjust at no or less input and although usually I knew all the crowds of people I saw all the time, the palm trees and cardboard boxes, everything in reddish grey, were not really there, they sometimes made me stop in my room when going over to the table to eat, to let all the people pass first…
    > my family must have been so sad and worried, I know some of them came by as they thought it might be the last time..
    > once I did ask my mom if she would help me if I got worse and felt like putting an end to it, and her anser was straight and fabulous, she said, very calmly, ‘of course I would’…
    > makes me teary to think of that prooof of great love she gave me, and it helped me to put the ideas of possible suicide behind me, reassuring me she would be there and I needn’t worry about anything at that mvery moment yet…
    > I was a physical wreck moving in with her and could barely sit on a chair for ten minutes at first, but she kept encouraging me gently to do a bit more every day, then go out in the garden briefly, then a very short walk a bit further, etcetera, until finally I felt like living by myself again, already two months later.
    > I first thought of moving back to the appartment I had rented before getting ill, but then we discovered a home for blind people which I agreed to go to for a while, which at first felt bad, as in ‘will this be my life now, a dark shady dependence of others in a restrcted environment?’, which felt very depressing.
    > but there was also a good school for adults that were or got blind in the same street, which gave also computer classes and a lot of sports and well, I started to fight my way up again, meeting some very inspiring people there, both blind and seeing..
    > I could go with someone I met in Primal to L.A. not even a year later, as she was an air hostess and we could share a place there to rent, and she would fly in with me.
    > so one year later I was back in groups but did not feel much, until Barry asked me shortly before leaving if I could be enthusiastic about anything, and I finally realized myself I was depressed..
    > it was a tough stay, as I got into a fight with my roomaate and had to leave there, but well, it still felt good to have done it, and the next summer or year, don’t remember well, I already went back on my own, and finally upon entering group room, immediately broke into howling tears for a very long time..
    > I moved back to a rented appartment with a minimum of assistance, just two hours a week, and made it since then, now 17 years ago…
    > had an affair with my piano teacher, learned the Argentinean tango, had singing classes and performed many times, and now study psychology at Open University..
    > still sadness left about what I lost, and loneliness, too much of that in my life, but trying to make the best of things.
    > and in the meantime therapy , which I started a year before all of this happened, started giving more and more meaning back to my life, giving my back a large part of my brain and feelings and memories and myself really, that is one thing Patric frased well, when he remembered Ulrich, that that felt like regaining a part of his brain.
    > well, therapy gave me back that large part that had been cut off for far too long, turning life into a much more meaningful and fascinating experience again. it is priceless, and I can’t express how much I appreciate Barry’s help in all of this.
    > there is plenty more to say, but hey, this comment seems long enough, not sure the site will take it all in one piece..
    > M

    • Phil says:

      Margaret, What a story, what a terrible illness you went through.It is so admirable how you have come back and how you live your lifeafter such a thing.Phil Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2015 16:41:08 +0000 To:

    • Larry says:


      • Larry says:

        I’m touched and inspired by how you crawled out of such a dark place in your life, Margaret, and by the skill, sensitivity, and care that Barry and Gretchen show us when we are broken and at risk of going down a wrong path but they help us along the more difficult, right path.

  149. Margaret says:

    > thanks Ulrich, M

    • Ulrich says:

      No, thank you. That was no lame ‘Hoppla, I feel sorry for you and don’t know what to say’. I meant it exactly how I said it, although now I can imagine it might sound different in other people’s brains. It seemed like you proved with many things you done how much you can see, one can feel it in the words you painted out here.

  150. Margaret says:

    > and thanks Phil..
    > it is like being called courageous, which made no sense to me at first, until I realized myself the one called courageous is actually feeling very scared but still doing stuff despite feeling like that..
    > so well, the courageous usually do not feel too happy really a lot of the time, smiley..
    > but hey, luckily I discovered I have a great capacity for loads of fun still, and am still in for all kinds of adventures, smiley!
    > would love to learn some more about sea sailing for example, would love to have someone to go horseback riding with, have never tried a western saddle, is probably better for my knee that got injured right after having obtained my black belt judo.
    > so much to find out still, so much that could, or could not happen.
    > am grateful for my very active dreaming life every night, is a great treat really, even with nightmares included, as they are a way of processing hard to get to feelings.
    > M

  151. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich,
    > I do understand .
    > maybe I cherish so much all those things I enjoyed looking at, from fields full of flowers and butterflies when I lived in Spain to exploring all kinds of streets and even back alleys during my first stay in L.A. in the winter of 96 97 for six weeks.
    > I have seen Barry and Gretchen and many others and have seen those fabulous r
    > green ocean waves from above on the Santa Monica pier, stood there for hours actually gazing at them and their majestic beauty.
    > maybe one has sometimes to lose first before learning the true value of something.
    > I am grateful to my mind that makes up a bit for the loss by giving me those fabulous visual dreams every now and then.
    > once I had one fantastic one with three dimensional galaxies and everything, it was so intense that even after waking up and staring at my dark ceiling I kept on seeing a starry sky for a minute or so..
    > those dreams are not only visually fabulous, but often also filled with deep feeling.
    > there are sad or scary dreams, but also hilarious ones, dreams with music and dreams in which I sing, and a lot of times I wake up talking out loud, smiley..
    > as a kid I did sleepwalk a few times.
    > I remembered it the next morning, which was funny, as I had gone into my parents room and when they adressed me had told them a bit briefly for their stupid question I came to look for my silk stockings, or nylon panties, whatever the English description is..
    > so well, still don’t know if I am talking to Germany or the U.S. but it is nice to read?hear your feedback!
    > hurray for Apple’s Voice Over screenreader, a fabulous piece of software that even helped me to pass my first statistics exam.
    > feel I have done a lot of chatting this afternoon, despite being alone here with my cats, smiley.
    > M

    • Uller says:

      Well, there are also houses burning and a majority against refugees. A published reality is not necessarely a public reality. But It is true, we made room for about 1 million people this year, which make me feel good about many people here – but then again we doubled winnings on war industry in the first half of 2014. It’s our wars (along with the USA) that produces these refugees in the first place. And not to forget: Our industry needs especially Syrian refugees, because the majority of them is well educated middle class. I’d like to feel good about the situation, but there is a bad taste. However, for any single soul that made it to Europe and is allowed to stay it’s a blessing.

  152. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich, on the other hand they are the most welcoming country to the refugees..
    > by far..
    > it is shameful to watch so many other countries including Belgium with its present right wing government, only slightly eased up by the christian democrats luckily, it is scary to watch the atmosphere go sour and hostile in general.
    > and now Polen…
    > M

  153. Margaret says:

    > ha, one flame of curiosity less, haha!
    > I did like your balanced view of the situation keeping count of the pros and cons.
    > M

  154. Margaret says:

    > I saw on the news last week an item in which a Syrian doctor, who still tried to help people over there, adressed the camera, and so the U.S. and other parties involved, with a plea to stop the crazy war as it became insupportable for the local people.
    > he started crying and excusing himself repeatedly for doing so, while he went on begging to stop the war.
    > it was extremely touching and painful as it is all so much beyond our range of influence.
    > now it seems to escalate into a power struggle between the Russians and the U..S., about their influence in the larger regio there, and so the war will only get worse..
    > of course IS should be held back, as they seem the craziest of all, but well, it is hard to form any opinion in the tangled up mess of interests , it feels discouraging, as I feel so bad for that doctor and evverybody like him that are stuck in the middle as innocent victims.
    > sad and painful and frustrating..
    > M

    • Ulrich says:

      Affirmative, the only one right in this ‘mess of interests’, as you put it, is the doctor.

      btw, since I will abandon the blog pretty soon I’d like to tell you, that your posts did way more effecting me than I thought. Last night I dreamt being on one of the middle sea islands, meeting some people, among them a girl, who used to speak out strange sentences, which I couldn’t decipher. Kinda funny, kinda senseless. She just was there among us and I really had no interest in getting to know her, but after some time realized, after another strange sentence, that I started to fall in love with her. The point is, I am in a stable relationship (hopefully) for about more than 20 years now, but didn’t know that I’m still able to feel that way. Being in love, yes, but falling in love? It was as if my body just showed me, that life went here and there and some things went out of sight, but no need to worry, you are still here. I had been blind in a way and didn’t realized that I can still see. Fuck, that’s really odd (and sad) – but also very light 😉

      And before I forget: Congrats on your statistic exam. Was it the first or second? And, since I don’t like rolling out personal things in the most public place on earth, if you’d like to have a little chat here and there, I’d leave my mail address with Atty. I’d like to, but, of course, won’t be upset or anything, if you think otherwise.

  155. Margaret says:

    > Ulrich,
    > gern.
    > M

  156. Margaret says:

    > Anybody there?
    > M

  157. Margaret says:

    > haha, that’s a relief, plokplokplooook
    > ain’t there also a song Little red rooster?
    > would lighten up a chicken party a bit..
    > in fact plenty of roosters here and few chicken..
    > thanks for the song, smiley

  158. Margaret says:

    > I tried the link, but only got a loud spot about a 3d movie The revenant, I think..
    > quickly left the page as I don’t like pages with ‘I like this’ buttons since I found out some of the ways in which Facebook follows and registers everyone, even no facebook readers, who simply come to such a page, ha, of course my reaction is too late when I leave, but well,specially when I don’t get to what I was looking for it is just an extra reason to get out of there..
    > the Belgian government has started a lawsuit against Facebook about this.
    > M

  159. Margaret says:

    > haha, Phil, I liked that song, after another loud spot about some shop for toys I had to listen to , in Flemish, so our side of the world’s interfering, I could listen to the song, very cheerful .
    > I mailed the link to my singing teacher, as she planned once doing an evening with nothing but songs , both classical and jazzy or otherwise, about animals.
    > I was gonna do a duet for cats from I think, Rossini. very funny, and pretty, and nothing but meows and hisses, for alto and soprano, haha the whole time meowmeows of all kinds, I remember rehearsing it here at home and suddenly I heard an extra meow at my feet, my former cat inquiring what the hell I was trying to convey, so she clearly picked out the meows as she never would do that kind of thing when I rehearsed other stuff, she would rather go to another room then, haha!
    > thanks for the links, my screenreader could pick them up right out of the mail from the blog this time.
    > some links remain simply inaudible for me, but not these ones.

    • Phil says:

      I wonder where the rest of the chickens are?

      Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 16:35:23 +0000 To:

      • Sylvia says:

        Cluck-cluck; please don’t let today suck. Speaking of cats hiding in another room. When I watched a tape of Janov’s session with the patient “Joy” where she was crying deeply about her father not visiting, my cat hid under the bed because it sounded like a wounded animal and she got afraid. She stays away when I play Barbra Streisand songs too.

        • Phil says:

          > Sylvia, haha, specially that last frase was funny! > does Barbara really sound like a wounded animal? > when I cried here with my former cat, a female, often I suddenly felt a wet nose or whiskers touching my face to check with me if I was ok. after a bit of reassurance she would go to continue her nap. > my two young males now still need to figure out what to do, so far they haven’t heard me cry too often luckily.. > and is it one chicken and two chickens? for some reason I thought it also was two chicken.. well well well.. > M

          Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2015 18:42:08 +0000 To:

  160. Margaret says:

    > some probably looking for a can of wurms to open, smiley

  161. Margaret says:

    > Sylvia, haha, specially that last frase was funny!
    > does Barbara really sound like a wounded animal?
    > when I cried here with my former cat, a female, often I suddenly felt a wet nose or whiskers touching my face to check with me if I was ok. after a bit of reassurance she would go to continue her nap.
    > my two young males now still need to figure out what to do, so far they haven’t heard me cry too often luckily..
    > and is it one chicken and two chickens? for some reason I thought it also was two chicken.. well well well..
    > M

  162. Margaret says:

    > Phil was me actually, by proxy..
    > and again talking of cats, I once had a cat that started running up and down the stairs every time I played the first record of the Soft Machine..
    > yeah yeah..
    > M

  163. Margaret says:

    > it does make a nice change. it has been a pleasure coming on the blog lately, fun and also a great entry to some difficult feelings for me.
    > and nice and inspiring company.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Isn’t it wonderful Margaret to have things just the way you want them. Or think you want them. Or want them until you don’t. In the meantime if anything is not the way you want it you will attempt to ban that person until it is back to the way you want it. And isn’t it nice not to have to ‘think’ just think as the government tells you it is legal to think. What a nice comfy little world where ‘freedom of thought’ is just a distant memory.

      Patrick speaking from his ‘kennel’ (dog house lol)

    • Sylvia says:

      I just wanted to say I was also inspired by what you shared the other day about your experience in the hospital and your adapting to the new parts of your life.
      Every time there is an overcast day I think of my ex, late sister-in-law (who was married to my eldest half brother.) She lost her sight to retinitis pigmentosa in her late teens. When it was overcast day her vision was worse. She could make out shapes but that was all. She was a positive outgoing gal who played guitar and liked to sing country western songs; quite in contrast to our more reserved family. She was always nice to me. So every cloudy day I think about the impression she made.

    • Sandy says:

      Margaret, just because the fox is pretending not to be there doesn’t mean he won’t come out to pounce on the chickens at an opportunistic moment. Sandy.

  164. jackwaddington says:

    How come you are brilliant enough to be in the mind of Margaret. Quote:- “….. just the way you want them. Or think you want them”.

    I think the time has possible arrived for you to go back to Eire land. You promised to hide away until mid November (by claiming it to be October) Seems like some traces of dementia might be setting in. Yeah!!!!

    Are you not the one wanting it (The Truth) to be just what you THINK it is??????

    You’re a classic … in the sense of needing ‘you to hold the bulb … and for other four to twist you round’.

    Great; that you are back to poke, though.


    • Patrick says:

      Why don’t you go back to ‘poking’ policemen in public bathrooms which put on on the Deportation list. So instead of telling me to go back to Eire or whatever why don’t you tell us how you deportation issues are going. At least if I go back to Eire I can come back…………….can you say the same you disgusting hypocrite.

      You THINK you are ‘poking’ me just as you ‘THOUGHT’ you were ‘poking’ fags like yourself in public bathrooms but they were actually police. So ‘crooked thinker’ shut the fuck up………………….you think it’s great ‘sport’ poking me……………it just as compulsive and hate driven as what put you on the Deportation list………… shut the fuck up or I might have to actually go around and kick the dick out of your mouth………………you disgusting AIDS riven pervert…………….Leave me the fuck alone……………I am serious you demented faggot……………..

  165. Patrick says:

    I am sure people will think what I have done is ‘bad’ but I would challenge ANY of you and that includes Pastor Larry to able to keep you cool if EVERY single time you go on here and say anything you have a fag like this creep pissing and ‘poking’ all over you. It is typical of course that ‘primal’ has no standards if Gretchen or anyone at all here with a bit of gumption or any kind of ‘leadership’ would tell this fag to knock it off. It is NOT acceptable. This is supposed to be a site where people can express themselves good bad or indifferent and this Deportee AIDS riven fag will compulsively and EVERY time talk shit to me and about me. Gretchen somebody tell this fag to keep his hate and perversion to himself or I might have to do something about it. He is on the Deportation list for ‘moral turpitude’ doesn’t what he is doing here constitute something like that. Maybe a good “Jewish’ lawyer might be able to do something about it but in the meantime where is a good “Jewish’ therapist who might try to keep this guy in order. MIA as usual……………….

    When I was gone this compulsive asshole ‘attacked’ Guru all the time, what a joke if this guy sees himself as some kind of ‘primal success’ he cannot stop himself being an interfering fag but worse he has no desire to. No intention towards ‘good’ in any sense though if Pastor Larry or St. Tom posts anything here no matter how un-remarkable you will find ‘tears streaming down his face’ (he says).To me this guy is a fag who could never make it in the world of regular men so now he hides behind a keyboard and spews his drivel at me……………….as I say I will see what I can do to stop this……………..

  166. Jo says:

    My understanding of extreme and toxic emotion leaking out is that there is more historical early issue(s) going on than is related to the current target.
    The same applies to the need to needle.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Jo: I did mean to respond to your post earlier, and in particular that you felt “The same applies to the need to needle”.

      I agree in essence with what you say here: also I agree that between Patrick and I, there is a history of 30 years, and also some older feelings that I am (sort of) aware.. However, if there are ONLY two things I got from my therapy there are:- that I never felt the need to insult back (blame game). The other is:- as far as I am able, ‘to NOT be defensive’. My reasonings are purely for my own benefit. No desire to the ‘good guy’.

      I did, some time back, state my reason for ‘poking’ and unless I am asked again, I don’t feel the necessity to repeat it.


  167. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > you are so attached to your jerk/victim cycle I can only shrug my shoulders by now.
    > M

    • Patrick says:

      Margaret – you ‘shrug’ when you are not banning. Why don’t you do you know what is right this jack-off ruins the blog. You and Leslie and Pastor Larry and all the rest claim to be concerned about the atmosphere on the blog…………..well DO something then. But this PR seems ‘on your side’ so you let this shit go year after year……………..primal integrity at it’s best………….worst actually

  168. Patrick says:

    Like I said I challenge ANY of you to put up with the constant sniping mocking second guessing this guy does to me. ANY of you. Pastor Larry, Saint Tom, Margaret, Jo, Leslie, Sandy ANY of you would not put up with this crap. If ANY of you would speak up it would affect this guy he is above all and always a PR man so if one of the ‘respected’ ones (that’s anyone in ‘primal’) this jerk would pull in his horns. Or his dick. He ‘poked’ around with his dick all his life led to I think 5 arrests just while he was here, ‘poking’ policemen he thought were similar fags to himself in public bathrooms.

    Margaret you like to ‘referee’ the blog you have quite seriously tried to have me banned for ruminating about vaccines and the holocaust. Big crimes right? Why don’t you do and say something you know is right, this guy ruins the blog with his crap. A lot of people might say I am just as bad but the thing is I am REACTING to this jack-off. I have asked him more than once to just leave me be and I would do the same. Not a chance the very fact I want it means he will do the opposite. A pervert. I am someone who gave him so much over the years but whatever……………………..i am fine with us going our own way. He if he sees me he says would cross the street and walk the other way…………..fine well then KEEP AWAY from me here too.

    I am telling him and warning him he better lay off me or I WILL go over to his trailer park and let all his neighbors know is he is on a Deportation list for perverts. Let PR man deal with that, let him ‘spin’ that, let him talk his way out of that. Americans generally are wary of living next to perverts especially sex perverts and it might be interesting where things would go from there

    Next move is up to you faggot……………… you are a coward hiding behind a keyboard, this has gone on long enough I WILL do something to stop it and let’s just say where everything falls out…………..

  169. Margaret says:

    > Patrick,
    > you keep distorting reality. you keep coming back with me wanting to ban you because of the subjects you raised, while I repeatedly told you it is not the subjects that made me want to ban you temporary, but the violence and intentional hurtfulness you practice more and more.
    > and don’t bullshit about Jack being the cause and reason, the way he adresses you can be irritating but his words are almost never really vicious or cruel.
    > he mostly throws back your own stuff at you, which seems very hard for you to deal with.
    > as a matter of fact I did ask Jack once to hold a
    > back, in a private mail conversation, and he was silent for quite a while then, but it did not stop you from bullying others.
    > i had hoped you taking a break would have made you come to your senses but you sound worse than ever, the only solution would be for you to look for the source of the rage and hatred, but instead you insist on comin here and looking for confrontations, threatening with physical violence.
    > jack is merely acting as a mirror, and if I asked him to give it a break for a while, it was merely because you sounded back then too as if you are losing control of yourself.
    > be straight, Patrick, all that rage can’t possibly be originated by Jacks poking, even if that might be inappropiate occasionally.
    > don’t even know why iI keep talking here, expressing myself is probably the only result.
    > if you do not want to
    > to listen or can’t hear this, I mostly feel concerned.
    > M

  170. It’s interesting but I was about to write something very similar to what Margaret has said. I think if you look back at the blog you will find that you and Jack have driven each other equally crazy over time. Where it changes is with threats and name calling. Some of this is not so dissimilar from what I perceive as your rage towards Jews and I think it is important to take a good look at that. The bigger issue at the moment however is the loss of control which, like Margaret, also concerns me. I’m going to write you privately later today to discuss this. Gretchen

    • Patrick says:

      Gretchen – you know better than that or maybe you don’t. I have found you a bit weak and conventional in the logic dept. You KNOW I have tried to make peace with Jack, I have offerend joint sessions meetings whatever. You KNOW he has disdained that……………..fine, it’s a free country and that’s his right.

      But I am amazed nobody here tells him to knock it off including you Gretchen. Do you know how hard it is I have ‘half formed’ thoughts that I like putting on here and this pervert sits there and ‘grades’ every word and never in any constructive way………………..just hatred and ‘getting off’ on ‘poking’ I could not but see the similarity of all the acting out over the years. And acting out that affected me I paid for his legal defenses TWICE, just to keep him in the country. All of this is forgotten and it seems resented later and I become the big bad capitalist enemy or some such nonsense.

      See now I’m ‘afraid’ this will start more from him but my promise still stands “Leave me the fuck alone or you will regret it, maybe we will both regret it. But I would rather go out in an Irish blaze of glory that to have to endure the drip drip drip of hatred and ‘getting off’ that he does. Just as the police did not find it acceptable neither do I and I am prepared to take whatever consequences come from all this. My rules are simple leave me alone and I will leave your AIDS infected ass alone too. Simple enough.

  171. Margaret says:

    > Sandy,
    > I do not let him intimidate me.
    > we have a saying in Flemish that says ‘truth hurts’, but all Patricks attacks do not affect me as they do not contain any truth that might resonate with me.
    > and if something would resonate, I would simply look at it and search my soul to find out what it is about.
    > which does not mean his behavriour is bothering me more and more.
    > we are no chickens and he is no fox.
    > please don’t let him hold you back, you have so much to say, that is much more worthwhile to get attention than his attempts to hurt people.
    > you know better than to take seriously any of what he says, about people, it is just attempts to hurt.
    > they for me miss any true content as they have nothing to do with the real persons only with what Patricks distorted perception makes of them.
    > I have always seen you stand your ground very well in the past.
    > you certainly do not strike me as a chicken.
    > of course with all respect to any old feeling being triggered.
    > ignore him, delete him, tell him to fuck off, whatever, he can’t harm you.
    > you are a truely worthwhile person with all the right and more to be here and feel free.
    > and Patrick, before you say anything, you are worth it too, only your behaviour is becoming more and more unacceptable and that is your own responsibility and choice.
    > I have known you in a different mindset and know you are able to be different if you choose to.
    > you turn around the order of behaving like a true asshole and then acting like a victim for being criticized, you set yourself up all the time and blame the world for responding honestly.
    > it is about time you look at that pattern of yours before you get into real trouble, I am serious.
    > I do care about you, and am trying to help, I hope you remember that.
    > M

  172. Margaret says:

    plok plok plok? plokplok grrr? plokkerdeplok?

  173. Margaret says:

    actually this here chicken is trying to make itself understood by you foreigners in Flemish it would be tok tok took toooook grrrr? tokkerdetok!

  174. Margaret says:

    > Phil, isn’t it a dangerous time of the year to make that sound???
    > M

  175. Larry says:

    Yesterday I had laser surgery to remove bladder stones. I was admitted to hospital as a day patient. Got the wrist band, a bed, changed into the hospital gown, the whole bit. Was under general anesthetic during the surgery which took an hour. For 24 hours afterward I’m not to drive a car or make any independent decisions. In the afternoon a friend drove me home. They sent me home with a catheter installed, which was quite a discomfort to live with initially. I am a little more used to the catheter today. I am to remove it on Monday morning.

    In the hospital I didn’t like not being in control of my life, having to give myself over to being a patient for the medical staff to prod and treat from their friendly, caring but emotional distance.
    I looked forward to getting out of here and back to my life again.

    I was in the same hospital, in the same type of room that Noreen was in after she was first diagnosed with cancer. She was there for a week, being cat scanned and assessed, close to dying from difficulty breathing until finally a couple of litres of fluid were discovered and drained from her lungs. Then transferred to another hospital for radiation and chemo therapy. I remember the shock of wondering whether she would survive to the next day. Yesterday in the same hospital I felt a glimpse of what she might have felt, hoping to live, hoping to get out of here soon and back to a normal life, but having to face acceptance of the possibility of death.

    The anxiety leading to the day of surgery, the preparation for it and then the day of surgery itself, then arriving back home with a catheter, some pain, and a feeling of fragility, culminated in me feeling very alone. I so much needed love around me, and there was none. I so much needed people to phone as ask how the surgery went, but the phone didn’t ring. I thought of your stay in hospital Margaret and your feeling of your mother being there for you. I don’t ever remember feeling that way about my parents.

    I felt scared, alone and fragile yesterday after I got home. There is no avoiding it. I am deeply alone. Broken, I cried. There is an ugly aspect to this therapy. The worst feeling as I cried wasn’t the aloneness, The worst feeling was the ugly truth that this therapy makes me have to face, that mine weren’t the loving parents I want to believe they were. I feel I’m letting them down somehow by admitting they just weren’t capable parents. It is deeply ugly and painful to admit and I’m almost angry at this therapy for taking me there, but the truth is inescapable. I cried deeply briefly, shocked but relieved to finally let myself go there.

    Watching a movie on TV last night, I cried about losing Noreen, more deeply than before. I am back there, in the moment, letting it all in more that I am losing her, she is dying, gone. It has taken me all this time to get to the deeper stages of grieving her, because it has taken me all this time to see how except for her, I was always alone.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Larry: So, so sad and yes, I understand the anger as well. I know my note will be no compensation for wanting someone to call you on the phone after the surgery. Also, so sad that you needed to go there in the first place, and you had the misfortune to lose the love of your life.

      What it demonstrates most of all, is the absolute need we all had when we were so vulnerable and such need of ‘them’ … those that should have known to just put the arms around you/us and caressing you/us and being totally there for you/us.

      What is even more aggravating is that after that “great discovery”, so little attention is being paid to it.

      I hope Larry, your recovery is as relatively quick as possible, and you get that catheter out soon.


    • Phil says:

      Larry,I’m glad you’re back home and recovering after that surgery, but sorrythat nobody was there for you. You shouldn’t have to go through such difficultthings alone.Phil

      Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 17:49:14 +0000 To:

  176. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > sad…
    > is there nobody you can call from the bereavment group or the unitarian church?
    > I am sure some people would be happy to pay you a visit.
    > even if you are able to go without, you deserve that bit of comfort !!
    > M

  177. Margaret says:

    > Larry,
    > or give your sister or a brother a call?
    > M

  178. Leslie says:

    Hi Larry,
    Take good care of yourself. I am glad you could tell us about the surgery and all it unearthed.
    Also hope you can invite someone over for a quick visit.
    ox L.

  179. Larry says:

    I texted a brother this morning. He has no sympathy for me. 🙂 He had his prostate with aggressive cancer removed and had to wear a catheter for two weeks. Tough guy. Recovering and coping very well. The point is he had a wife and two young adult children at home in his life for support as he dealt with his health crisis. I’ll talk to another brother this evening. That’s not the problem.

    It’s when I’m alone, vulnerable, fearful, fragile, in need of comfort and support, such as just before and the day of the surgery, and then in the initial stages at home working out how to manage a catheter that I realize how alone I am and how in some ways it is self-imposed because I am afraid to reach out in my need. Because I don’t let them in, I don’t have people close to me in my life who would have been concerned for me the day before and the day of surgery, checking up on me to see how I was doing. Though I want and need it, I am afraid of the attention and caring that I don’t feel I deserve. It would have hurt to get it. It would have brought up the emotional pain that I described yesterday, so I avoided giving people the opportunity to care about me. The day before the surgery, at work at lunch I casually mentioned that I was having the surgery the next day. One of the women who was one of my first summer students 20 years ago said she’d give me a ride to the hospital. I was almost alarmed by the offer, feeling like I didn’t deserve her generosity. Of course I know I have to let people be nice to me. After the crying yesterday, I have a better idea why it hurts when they are.

    On Thursday because I was preparing for the surgery, I didn’t go to dance practice, so I didn’t find out whether She would be there again. But I have made progress in another way. There is a lady in my dance class who is about the same skill level as me, who seems on the surface like a nice person, who like me doesn’t have a partner and because of that finds it hard to go to the dances. We talked about the dances being good practice and fun, and how it would be easier to go to them if we knew at least each other would be there to dance with. There is a dance tonight but I didn’t know whether after the surgery I’d feel well enough to go. She gave me her number so that I could let her know whether I was going or not. In all the years I’ve been doing the ball room dance classes, this is the first time I’ve exchanged phone numbers with a woman in the class.

    • Phil says:

      Larry,I can relate to what you say as I have a similar tendency of not lettingpeople into my life, or kind of pretending I don’t need them. I do have my family here but otherwise hardly anyone else, which becomes clear during vacation time when I’m here alone.I find it a very difficult problem to overcome. Phil

      Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2015 22:27:27 +0000 To:

  180. Larry says:

    A curious and interesting development after the bladder stones were removed and the anesthetic wore off, is that I feel so much more my healthier self than I have in months, like a great weight has been lifted. After a few hours back home I eventually realized yesterday that my polymyalgia rheumatica symptoms have subsided dramatically, though not completely gone. i wonder whether the stones and bacteria they may have been harbouring have been stressing my immune system, leading to the autoimmune disorder. Time will tell whether the change is real and lasting.

    • jackwaddington says:

      Keep writing to us here Larry, we are reading you and it’s both good for us, and good for you (I do feel confident to speak for some others).


    • Sandy says:

      That’s great news you other symptoms are subsiding. I hope that was the answer. Keep keeping good care of yourself.

      • Larry says:

        Unfortunately the symptoms are back, but thanks Sandy.

        • tom verzar says:

          Hi Larry
          This is what I looked up on the web:
          Does this describe what you are suffering from sufficiently?
          If so, it’s a bummer. I got curious because you wrote you had bladder stones removed.
          I have suffered from kidney stones for the last fifty years. Been in hospital emergencies both here in Sydney and Melbourne, and Los Angeles, a number of times. Last time when a stone blocking the urethra was removed, the good doctor found some growth in my bladder, as well as some stones, which he promptly cut out and removed.
          But you unfortunately suffer from arthritis, which can be debilitating. Poor you.
          Next time you have to go to hospital, can you trumpet it on this blog, so that we can be there for you. We can call you at all times of the day and offer our sympathy. If you have an Iphone, we can even see each other and commiserate with you on Skype and/or WhatsApp and/or Viber and/or FaceTime. We can even leave instructions to your good doctor, how to do his job. And tell the nurses when to turn you over, and to be gentle with you.

          • Larry says:

            Hi Tom. It’s not arthritis in the sense that it doesn’t affect my joints. It affects my muscles, making them very achy, especially overnight and early morning. The pain kills my vitality, making me feel sad/depressed. I can’t help wondering whether the polymyalgia is a physical manifestation of deep emotional pain and sadness that I numb myself from. Today I’ve been crying through the day about how I needed my Mom and Dad, my Mommy and Daddy. Like any kid, I just needed a Mommy and Daddy to love, and to love me, that’s all. The ugly side of this therapy is that it helps open me to feelings, then takes me to the truth that I didn’t have a Mommy and Daddy to love. I simply missed out in that very crucial department, and what I’m left with after doing therapy and facing truth, is that I will never be compensated.

            Dad died 11 years ago. Mom is 88 and has been in a nursing home for the past 6 or 7 years with vascular dementia. She is very frail now. In early October she stopped eating. My sister phoned and told me today that Mom is refusing liquids now. She is shutting down. Her time is near. After I yank this catheter out tomorrow, I’ll see if I feel strong enough the next day to travel to Winnipeg to see her one last time. She probably won’t last to the weekend. She is probably to weak and frail to be aware of my presence or who I am.

            • Thomas verzar says:

              Hi Larry
              Your reply really stirred me up. Your description of where your mum is at. Not eating, and now refusing to drink.
              My mum went through exactly the same thing.
              Just reading your lines I started to ache, ache, long for my mum. She is gone. Never to see or talk to her ever again. I can’t believe it hurts so much, even after all this time.
              I want her. I want you. I want you to hold me. I want you to look into my eyes. Comfort me! So I stop aching for you.
              Don’t leave me. Not for ever! Please. Please
              Come back for one more time.
              I am in Skyzone, a place for my grandson to use the trampoline. I am sitting here waiting for
              Him. In the cafe. And I am aching.
              Do something.


            • Thomas Verzar says:

              Go and see her.
              I went to see my mum almost every day for two years in her nursing home. Where I put her.
              And then I got a call 5:15 am one morning that she is gone. I rushed there. Sat next to her. I looked at her. I wanted her to open her eyes and look at me.
              I touched her skin. She was still warm. I couldn’t believe she was gone. I touched her again, and again. Finally the doctor came to provide a provisional death certificate.
              He looked at me, saw the pain in my eyes and told me that she is gone.
              I still can’t believe I can’t have her. I am tearful in a public place.
              The longing for you is unbearable. I will go to the cemetery soon and be near you.

  181. Sandy says:

    Halloween always makes me feel like a stick in the mud. I can never think of a costume, and if i do i can’t think of how to make it. All my “I can’t” demons rise up. Hmmm maybe i should go as a stick in the mud…or a demon…oh right I can’t figure out how to make it.

  182. Sandy says:

    Some recent posts you made about your life affected me. It touched me to get to know some more details of your life. Also, as you wrote about your eyesight, of coming to terms of how your life is different, the loss of how your life changed from it, you made me cry and you touched some pain that I live with in my life. For me it’s the loss of something I never had…a child. I haven’t the patience to type about the reasons why I never had one, but it’s a loss I feel in some form practically every day. When someone mentions about their kids (and now the grandkids), no matter how dramatic or cute or troubling or inert the mention, it all pings that sore spot. It was good to cry about that today and let some of it out.

    • Larry says:

      That is sad.

      • Thomas Verzar says:

        Half an hour after the doctor left, the funeral people came. They put my mum into a “bag” ready for transport. Then they left.
        I went back and sat next to her empty bed. I could’ believe it. She’s gone. Never to see her again. Not ever. My mum.
        Awh. It is still so raw. It happened a few moments ago. ( 28 th January, 2012). Yesterday.

  183. How are you Jack? Gretch

    • jackwaddington says:

      “How are you Jack? Gretch” Short answer:- “Ok” medium answer. Larry’s and Tom’s posts saddened me. Long answer:- ……………….. (it’s a long, long story) ………….

      Margaret:- “is something wrong with Jack?” Many things … alas … I suggest you re-read Patrick and you’ll get all the answers. He’s known me for long enough.

      My Jimbo:- “Oh! “I suppose you are loving all the attention”

      Me:- “Yep. I really really love it. I know I shouldn’t BUT I do”.

      On a more serious note:- .The night before last we were told to put the clock back. Oh! I thought. How long … can I put it back some 50 years???? that’d be nice.

      “Nooooooo!!!!!! … just one hour … and be greatful for that … cos come next March, we’ll take it back back again. I knew there was not free lunch!!!!!

      On a real serious note:- I question:- why it is that Patrick’s comments about me, don’t knowingly hurt me. My reasoning (as of now) are:- I see it merely as Patrick’s feelings. Yet! I do feel terribly hurt when my Jimbo gets angry with me and say’s things that really hurt … all I can do is go off for a walk or onto my bed and express my hurt out of range of him hearing. If I try to have it out with him it tends to spiral out of control.

      One last point:- after Patrick’s last comment I was about to respond and then I saw that Gretchen was going to have a private email with him, and so thought better of it, and decided not to respond at all.

      Yes Gretchen, I am crazy … but hopefully getting ever so slightly better. At 83 things are somewaht different.